118 thoughts on “how will we finance BURN ???”

  1. david alan harvey

    KERRY…ALL

    i am wrestling with this one…i do not see how we can update daily…at least not the essays..great essays are few and far between…we have now a whole lot of content to last awhile, from the forum here and the workshops etc…

    but, even with a number of essays on hand i cannot imagine any more major postings than we do now…that is, major features updated at say three or four per month, but we will have the blog going on as per usual and maybe a daily single picture category…..and lots of stuff going on under “work in progress”..so there will be a lot of activity..

    but, carefully curated developed stories in the main Features section will be , by their very nature, little treasures and not daily “newsy” fodder…other sites already do this very well..

    what we have that is special and unique is self generated content..stories started, edited, mentored right on BURN… we become producers rather than just be a compendium site…everyone knows that in the new communication world, content will be king…i think we can “play”…

    remember this whole magazine is built on a blog platform..if you update the features too often you will not have any one up long enough for the photographer to feel that he/she has really gotten the max exposure…of course, the great features will stay up forever in the archive etc…at any one time, readers will see about 10 photographer names/stories and from say number 11 on, one click gets you to the next 10 etc etc..

    major daily feature updates would require a full time well paid staff…to just get one story ready to go and on the level i foresee is already a major job…one thing we did discuss was putting as much responsibility on the photographer as possible..we will have a very strict submissions guideline ….this will reduce the need for raw man/woman power…

    our primary goal now is to launch soonest a “model”…with what it will look like, a sampling of possibility, but not yet a full blown magazine…but we will clearly have something that could be shown by you/me to potential sponsors..

    we also think we have come up with a very creative plan to finance photographers beyond the relatively limited EPF..to have specific sponsors finance specific grants which will be given to specific photographers…this way sponsor money goes directly to the photographer who then shoots something for BURN..this leads to more reader interest, which leads to more funding, which leads to more reader interest, etc etc etc…

    i plan to “BURN the house down” my friend !!

    cheers, david

  2. Gina Martin

    i dig the logo – well done. i like all of them except the teddy bear… but that’s ok.

    stickers – “what happens at the kibbutz ends up on burn”….

    patches – to put on photo bags

    coffee mugs

    i will try to think of other things too.

  3. panos skoulidas

    YES…..

    now everything is getting real…. so real…

    we will be able to “touch” it … soon…

    damn…

    i knew it… from the first minute i landed it here…

    i knew it… feels so good…

    when eventually everything pays of…

    great,

    amazing,

    unbelievable,

    sweet,

    DOPE,

    BURN…

    so glad im here……

  6. panos skoulidas

    ….. honestly…

    we dont need another newspaper…

    we need the perfect “TIMING” for “BURN”…

    photogs need to be exposed “no more or less” of what they need

    to be exposed…

    not daily, not weekly, not monthly, not yearly…

    but “timed perfectly”…

    as a viewer or a magazine reader i dont wanna have the

    “yellow pages photographic magazine” that introduces one

    photog after another after another after another…

    names, phone numbers , websites, otherwise we will have

    the “DateAnEmergingPhotog.com”…

    BURN=REVOLUTION in the media…

    how about you will have the next issue when we are ready…

    how about i will show the best, or nothing at all…

    “BURN” will be the point of reference soon…

  12. Haik

    DAVID,

    for financing – BURN prints of featured photographs, maybe signed by the photographer. that will fly like hot cakes.

    I don’t think there will be a shortage of good photo on this site daily if not more often.

    As far as the daily update goes – it does not seem necessary in my opinion. The comments made for each post is the daily update for which readers usually return – and with Panos ( love ya, man ) in the game, ok i’ll shut up.

    I am sure you have used wordpress as the platform – I wish I could have a say in this but it seems to be late. Drupal is one hell of a platform for the website/blog/magazine/social/forum/etc and it is much sophisticated than any pure blog platform that is simply a reverse chronological collection of articles. Drupal can have “featured stories” stuck on the first page along with frequently updated blog and much more – all on the front page.

    If you think it is not too late – would you, and I mean everyone that were at the meeting, be interested in transferring current design to drupal? The drupal thing is just very powerful for what you want or may intend to do in the future.

    cheers,

    Haik

  13. Haik

    eh, forgot.

    I love the logo. loved it since i saw it on the mac with David M on top of it.

    U is critical. says a lot. wonderfully done.

  14. Haik

    eh, forgot.

    I love the logo. loved it since i saw it on the mac with David M on top of it.

    U is critical. says a lot. wonderfully done.

  15. David Alan Harvey

    HAIK…

    nothing is ever “too late”…i just never heard of Drupal, but i will check it out…i honestly do not want to have too too much on the front page..

    keep your suggestions coming…yes, of course, BURN should become quite a good platform for the photographers to sell prints, maybe get an assignment, etc etc…

    cheers, david

  18. Haik

    DAVID,

    drupal.org

    dwin.com – I did that one but it is not an updated site

    I never meant a busy front page – that is a no go. It is just drupal will allow you to have multiple streams of blogs rolling at the same time while the _main_ featured article stays on the front page.

    I’ll whip something up for you all to look at to get the idea because the actual out-fo-the box look is way ugly and example sites aren’t that good.

    Assignment??? ohhhh. that’s a good one. I love it. i want it.

    hey – i’ll even buy one if it is for sale – think about it.

    cheers

    Haik

  21. panos skoulidas

    HAIK…….

    i told u you are part of “it”….

    when i saw your photo-slideshow in venice, i cheered & clapped…

    when i saw your photos you emailed me…

    i knew you “have” it…

    the only problem…? your camera is too small….

    ;-))))))))))))))))))

  22. chris bickford

    Hey Panos, we’re missing you here at the loft…me, Anton, Anna, and David are all sitting here working, checking the blog, and just getting silly…hope you are well brother.

  25. Haik

    PANOS,

    lmao – size does not matter. what can i say.

    thanks for everything, man. call me when you come back. i’ll show you Venice :—–)

  26. tom hyde

    Yes but think of all the logo possibilities if the magazine were called “STASH” ! ;-))) Actually, turns out it already is a hot hip-hop mag … darn. :)))

  27. panos skoulidas

    TOM…

    i agree with BOB…your Salvadorian Dalian melting clockian

    hoola dancer photo deserves an award….

    you busted my balls for a sec, quite a while ago but i love U,

    my “greek” friend…

    ;-))))))))

  29. panos skoulidas

    HAIK…

    listen, i will be in Playa Del Rey… from tuesday to who knows when… ( till the court date at least )…

    we will definitely gonna hang…

    Venice Beach is the place to be…

    THE FREAKSHOW GOES ON….

    im so in love with venice… to the point i cant sleep at nights…

    i cant wait for the day that i will get my “stolen” SCcard back

    from the cops… i have so many memories from the roof of the

    CADILLAC HOTEL…

  30. tom hyde

    DAH, do not, do not let your Kibbutz flat go … i love that place, can’t even describe how much … would make the perfect offices for BURN if nothing else …

  31. panos skoulidas

    … i think NEIL , back in the day ,

    said that , the cop must have been a hell of a techie to figure out,

    how to take the SD out of the M8….

    laughing…

    anecdote:… Even after i took the SDcard out and handed it to them ( like an idiot, that i am… ), the poor cop was still insisting to also hand him

    the film… he still couldnt believe that ,

    that old piece of shit doesnt hide a film somewhere inside…!

    LOL…

  34. Lisa Hogben

    You guys might be going into winter, but for us southerners, well its just starting to get real hot…

    How about a line of beach towels with ‘BURNT’?

    I’d reckon you’d get a few sales out this way pretty damn soon….

  37. anton

    TOM

    LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    dude we’re missing you here…

    HAIK my man

    of course you are right… Drupal is more flexible and more “industrial-strength” than WordPress… it is belgium’s coolest internet product after all :))

    …and we are fully going to use Drupal for the full-fledged online magazine when the time has come for that to happen… and i definitely will be asking for your input on that one…

    BUT because in this “first step” we will still always have a home page with *one* feature story or *one* dialogue post (like road trips is now), there is no need for drupal just yet…

    hang in tight… it will come soon…

  38. Pete Marovich

    Ok, I just came across this post while checking mail during Jen and I’s Christmas party….. that can’t be grammatically correct…. HELL yeah I can spell grammatically while drunk….

    Ill get back to you on the how to finance Burn…..

    Don’t think I love the teddy bear though….

    Hey this is like a Panos moment…

  39. Haik

    DAVID,

    take a look at this: http://decknetwork.net

    this is an ad network but is very different from every other. Take a look at the member sites. They are selective in where they advertise and what they advertise. this might be the solution to all of the financing headache and donate buttons.

    ANTON

    cheers to you, man. You know what you are doing :). How could I forget that you flew in from Brussels.

  40. David Alan Harvey

    PETE….

    hey Pete we need you, but not until you have your coffee in the morning!!

    cheers, david

    p.s. hmmmm, i am not sure i can trust a man who does not love teddy bears….

    ALL….

    ok, Anton is overworked…and Chris and Anna and i have got to get out…so we are all headed for a Christmas party at the apartment of an old friend…we will get back to your comments in the morning….

    we welcome your ideas both serious and in jest…hey, if we can’t have fun, then it ain’t worth it…

    cheers, david

  41. panos skoulidas

    Hey this is like a Panos moment…

    Posted by: Pete Marovich | December 13, 2008 at 10:40 PM

    PETE…

    honestly…

    maybe i hang a lot with obnoxious rappers and other “inflated ego”

    beings… maybe LA, fucked my brains out…

    but , i dont think that this a “Panos moment”…

    i would rather say that this is a “Panos Year”…

    how about that!!!!!!!!

  42. david bowen

    chris

    Tor is already the size of a small family car.. say.. a nissan micra.

    on the website.. brilliant it’s all going so well.

    with content i would say the sites i enjoy the most are ones where i look forward to the content being updated. that’s not to say that blogs updated weekly are week, more that online magazines that make us wait and then deliver something of top quality strike more of a cord.

    on funding.. sites i have helped out with before have never made money through t-shirts and the like.. it’s paid the server costs, with a little beer money left over, and thats the lot.

    what about setting up a cash-cow such as print sales.. high quality signed prints.. short runs.. maybe that has been discussed?

    commission and the like..

    advertising is the obvious funding stream.. but so many sites get it wrong and end up looking like a cheap mail-order catalog.. so the idea of funding from specific partners for specific projects does seem a good idea.

    has there been any talk of gaining a single, high end funder who could use the regular investment as a tax write-off and also to expand their image?

    the British journal of photography managed a deal with nikon for the inside back cover of ever weeks issue, entitled ‘end-frame’ and intended to show new photographers.. that’s the kind of thing i am thinking for a solid, regular contributor for costs.

    are there thoughts along the lines of paying photographers for commission? that would be fantastic, obviously.. maybe too much to hope for.. repro fee’s could work and i’m sure all dedicated here can find the moula to fund their own mumblings.

  44. david bowen

    excuse typo’s and early morning (6.10am), missing letters..

    the BJP – inside back cover of every weeks issue..

    print sales – commission for the site.. 40%?

    panos.. acknoledged with thanks.

  45. david bowen

    and presents for all..

    a dj

    a fish

    http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3171/3098653810_46442e5db7.jpg?v=0

    and one from the archives, 1991 when i was 18

    ..a 27 year old man betrothed to a 13 or 14 year old girl.. small village arranged wedding.. he ran off into the jungle with mates, chomping on hash cookies, on the 3rd or 4th day while she wept and could not be consoled by her school friends.

    i took two frames.. in the other she is looking down and the running makeup is clearer.

    http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3094/3098723952_2881a11818.jpg?v=0

    love to all the babies born out of love and everyone – photograph more parties.

  46. marcin luczkowski

    I don’t read all comments buy my answer is;

    Ads.

    Like every other magazine. How many visitors have you right now and how many will you have with magazine? How much nikon or canon or tesco will be willing pay for place on your site? Internet is almost like tv or paper magazine for ads.

    I think it will be quite income site. It depends only how many people will visit per month. if it will be a hundred thousands the site will be worth millions soon. Am I right?

    And dog’s clothes it is great idea.

    guys you are doing great stuff, my mind is with you.

    peace

  47. Glenn

    ADS, ADS , ADS – There’s gotta be someone out there who see’s the merit in paying to be a part of BURN ?

    But then there’s someone who has to be the negotiator to recieve , format and insert the Ad’s so It all gets a biy complicated , and last time I looked DAH was still a working photographer .

    I would like for this to start out as grass roots as possible , sureley an online magazines expenses are minimal ,when compared to press, staff and Paper of a printed journal?

    I remember that Lightstalkers was helped along by contributors , Lurkers and Posters ,Why Not BURN ?

    I’d Thankfully kick in 50 bucks for the insights and headfucks that roadtrips has given me over the past couple of years , I’m not saying every one can contribute 50 some can contribute more ,some less but That’s how Obama got up , 50 bucks here 10 bucks there!

    Doing it through the organisation set up for Non Profit EPF would mean that….

    A – We get the Tax write off , reciept for funds , and the tranparency that will be required when dealing with donated funds.

    B – Anything left over can get rolled over into EPF to fund further essays.

    C – I can see that some might balk at self funding ,Vanity Press anyone? But once you start looking for Ad’s and supporters who are out of the loop , you need an advocate , a sales director , Blah Blah ,I for one believe that self funded ,moderated by a Non Profit organization base is the way to go initally .

    Wish you all the best Burners

  48. audrey bardou

    Hello,

    I love the logo, t.shirt (it will need to think a model of woman!) the clothe for the dog… perhaps envisage a complete range for the photographer (bags, backpack… a jacket, hat, bandana for Panos ! limps to present photos … ) perhaps also to envisage a calendar or even several… As glenn, I also think of the donors ? I do not know too much…

    Have a nice day, audrey

  49. Rafal Pruszynski

    David

    For money, I think you have what other magazines dont: a big name attached to your project. Yours. And by association Magnum’s. I think thats a golden ticket you have to get as much out of as possible.

    As far as how often the content is updated, make sure that you get the balance between quality and quantity. Weekly would be crazy. Monthly? Maybe. Every second month? I think its doable.

  50. someguy

    “i am wrestling with this one…i do not see how we can update daily”

    “but, carefully curated developed stories in the ‘main’ Features section will be , by their very nature, little treasures”

    AAAAAAHHHHHHH David, it’s right before your eyes!!!

    Think outside the box when you think of features!, think outside the box when you think of frequency!

    Think about daily newspaper content and think of the Sunday magazine and only then return to thinking the way you seem to be thinking David constraining yourself to ‘a periodical‘, think hard on how you have the luxury of blending all three of these concepts with electronic media verse printed media.

    think about having access to an army of key-strokes and shutter-releases, and feedback, and drama, harness this and you’ve stumbled on to a perpetual motion machine…

    You could actually beat Magnum Magazine to the punch… hmmm, But there is no Magnum Magazine? that’s weird, is it because there is not enough ‘features’ to suggest the frequency of one…

    Let’s think of the magazine like a content management system, if you’re thinking less than this then you’re going to have to start from scratch later and that’s too exhausting to think about already.

    You’re right David, There will be theeeee key feature, the treasure, the essay, The Gallery, the thing you walk by on the way into other areas of interest, this place will hold those diamonds, it will command the best real-estate of the site, and we will be happy about that, the seconds we spend there before going to other areas of the site will grow as we let the message of the essay(s) sink in.

    But past the semi-static gallery should be re-occurring modules of features, these modules could be updated as frequently as daily if they were bloggish, weekly if they were to have a seminar discussing an essay, or a seminar to discuss an image, or a seminar to discuss a photographer, or a seminar to discuss a book release. There could be a module that holds the ‘essay on deck’ a place where a draft essay could be raised and real feedback could be accumulated before the essay goes back underground… all of these 24/7 seminars would keep the magazine alive 24/7…

    This concept is the remedy to what’s so horribly wrong with this blog David, gold was mined and forged into value on this blog.. But tragically it’s buried in a new mine, a mine of 300 comments per post, it’s almost criminal to think about the lost value sunk in those threads.

    But back to the point… what you end up with at the content management level is the device for scrubbing the content to create a real, hold in your hands, collectors item quarterly printed magazine, or annual year book, a collectors item for sure.

    This all hinges on organising the magazine (content management system) into modules where draft, reviewed, and approved content can be pushed up virtually and quickly, with the least manual intervention, but with the highest degree of quality control.

    And each module needs to have a thread component to it so very relevant information can be collected, and in doing so become the catalogued minutes that the seminar happened and the talent that made the visit can be cemented for future visitors to see. 24/7!

    It’s yours to lose David and All… You have the luxery of starting from scratch, the others evolved from primitive platforms bending them to adapt them and the cracks of navigation show… you’re free from all these constraints.

    it’s yours to lose!! burns a bit doesn’t it?

    ..

  51. vivek

    ….. hello … in case u guys need to hire people to may b work lik clerks … u cld outsource it to lik mumbai / india or somethin ..it cld b much cheaper thn hirin somebody in new york .. n also i know this stock agency whic is plnnin to lk diversifyin into selling prints if u guys r intrsted i cld ask em to mail u or somethin lik tht

    ….bUrn …..http://flickr.com/photos/vivek_manek/3107004098/ ….

  52. marcin luczkowski

    Glenn

    May be I go too far with tesco’s ads, it was joke, but what I mean was to have place on website for ads. It’s mean that for example leica know David and see that Burn is great place for young photographers so they support magazine finacially for a space for red dot and fraze “leica support burn magazine”. As a fundation burn can do that, and no need negotiator. just meeting with leica or nikon guys. Especially web magazine no need big money, just for guys who work now for free, for domain or server or if this magzine will grow for annual award or something, or for meetings. I don’t know just wondering.

    place for ads it is nothing big deal.

    especially for fundation.

    but I am not lawyer.

  53. Glenn

    Marcin – Sure There would be interest from the usual suspects in advertising on Burn , But how many would be interested in associating themselves with the unmoderated free for all that the blog sometimes descends into? , The gold that Someguy reffers to could be the passion and social capital that would I think be wasted if it was combined with an undisiplined approach to content management.

    SOMEGUY – Spot On ! The ammount of interest in the blog can be the spring board to something truley unique in publishing web or Print but if left unattended could descend into the farce that drives participants ( myself included )and viewers ( as well as sponsors ) away.

    This project is endelibly linked to David’s name and reputation as a photographer and teacher and a lot of people have found a place here where they ordinarily would have no outlet , I would hate to see the opportunity and the GOLD as so elequetly put by someguy , wasted by mediocre tantrums and the kind of pointless meanderings that sometimes present themselves in Road trips.

  54. Lassal

    Just thinking …

    Here in Germany you do have these art associations. Usually one per town, at least in bigger towns. They are registered associations and get fundings from the government. But generally not enough. So they have different kind of memberships for artists, privat persons, companies, and of course you can make a donation on top of your anual membership payment and it is tax reductable. As a member you get different kinds of benefits, similar to museums, because at the end of the day it is an actual PLACE where there are exhibitions and events. Like in Museums they try to give it a high profile to attract companies as sponsor partners – a hard thing to do at least nowardays.

    Once a year, generally before Christmas, artists involved in the “Kunstverein” make a donation of something. Usually an edition or similar. There is a small catalogue that comes out where you find these items + the prices. They are very sought after, because even if most of the young artists have names you have never heard of, they already have some kind of acceptance and a name, because otherwise they would not be in the show. The range is quite high, as you will find well established artist next to younger ones, who are “on their way”, but at the beginning. But I know a lot of people who try to buy these editions not only because they like them but also to eventually invest in an artist.

    The catalogue itself is often fancy and designed by some well known agency (which wants to reach out to probably the same companies the Kunstverein does, but for different reasons) So I think most of it is done for “free” and just the material/printing costs have to be paid. Sometimes they get newspapers to cover this. And the mailing costs I think are covered by the city.

    Some Kunstvereine manage to make little fortunes with these sells before Christmas, obviously also depending on the artists who provide editions. You could get a little paperwork from Neo Rauch … even though you will have to wait 10 more years and spent a fortune to maybe be allowed to buy an oil painting … That is how it goes.

    By the way, you do not have to be a member of the Kunstverein to get an exhibition there as an artist. These are two different things. But you generally try to help the Kunstverein as an artist by becoming a member. You do not get much more than free entry, newsletter, special invitations to discussions and the catalogue for the editions that will be sold, but you do not pay much as an artist either. Most could not afford it anyway.

    I have never really worried about the details of the financial part of it, but I know someone who works there and I am sure I could get more info, in case you guys find it intresting.

    It is something different, of course, but it works throughout Germany and maybe one could adapt a thought or two … Membership for companies? Maybe better than ads? They are longer lasting and cannot be withdrawn over the weekend. It sounds more serious too … And it builds up commitment. But then BURN needs to be something you can become a member of…. I am not a lawyer and I do not know about the US-laws concerning this …

    Other than that, if photographers who are profiting from the platform agree to provide some prints for sell FOR BURN once a year, maybe x out of an edition of y or an edition with a special (different) size, which could become some kind of trademark for BURN by itself. I think that would be very fair.

  55. joostburger

    In my day job as a web developer I have some drupal experience. I think it might be a better platform than wordpress, it allows for more complex things. If you need help or opinions, drop me an email

  56. joostburger

    Another thing to take into account is the amount of knowledge the editors have. Drupal has a more complex backend, and this can be difficult in the maintenance.

    I set up a platform/zine myself http://www.zuperquirk.org, and chose for wordpress for this reason. We use flickr for communication, and publish with wordpress.

  58. Eric Espinosa

    DAVID and ALL,

    Back in Cinci… I miss you guys… T-shirt look great!!!! I can tell that the creativity kept going :):):):).

    For those interested, I have done a very quick slideshow with some shots I took during the couple of days I was there. Few shots from all of us working hard in the loft of David, few shots on the roof during a short break when all of a sudden, we had this very interesting neighbour of David show up (as Patrizia said, a very boring subjecyt :):):):… as my dear friend Tom got the killer shot already, I selected a other “sensual” picks…. finally, while dear Anton was working hard at the computer, I took a short hour walk around the kibbutz…nothing special really and just a few brief snaps but the light was incredible during that one hour and I have also attached the few pics…

    Go to my site and in index select “new: in and out of the kibbutz”…

    http://ericespinosa.com/main.php

    Enjoy… Was a crazy couple of days but so so worth it…. I will share laty

    er today a few more thoughts but need to spend a bit of time with the kids and the family here as well…

    Anton…Go to work please :):):):):

    Cheers,

    Eric

  59. Ari Baiense

    bUrn “engine” working in a very high RPM!

    Very nice ideas. I can imagine a bUrn special collection of bags and photographic gadgets/accessories.

    ERIC,

    Nice pics from NY. My opinion regarding David’s neighbor differs from Patricia’s… Very interesting indeed! ;-))

    And congrats for your effort with the other great guys from DAH’s squad to make bUrn happen!

    BTW, I saw your tribute to James for the first time and it’s really impossible not being touched by his story and also by your essay. I don’t know if you remember when I asked about being involved with your subject, but I am sure this is the hardest part of any documentary work about people.

    All the best,

    Ari

  60. david bowen

    great photos eric..

    anyone else seeing a resemblance between anton and david? separated at birth?

    ..and that roof mascot.. knows she lives next door to a photographer and friends?

    someguy..

    .. has hit some points spot on.

    it-s totally true that burn could run 24/7 in one ‘room’ or more and as long as it is tightly directed, content wise, there is no reason that those rooms need descend into chaos.. perhaps there could be a place for general chatter..

    i think the idea of free running seminars / discussion groups on photography in general as well as what the site is showing in the gallery is whats missing from the web right now.. it’s what i think a lot of people have come here for, as well as the mentoring of course.. myself included.

    print sales and some corperate sponsorship seem to be in the approaching conclusion to funding .. and if that were tied more to magnum than DAH that would relieve some stress there for the young snapper himself.

    lassel has nailed it with the idea of short, collectible runs of prints and releases, which could be pre-ordered and paid for to save on costs..

    of course that is going to take some worrk and i wonder, (back to association with magnum), is that something the office could take care of?

    if it is the case that magnum made you the tsar of education, david, i think you have served your time very well, with dignity and love for all.. and surely their reward for your hard work must include taking some of the weight off your shoulders as things progress into a more permanent and formulaic magazine..

    also – as someguy-the-great has mentioned.. magnum has no magazine.. and this could be an opportunity for them to throw themselves behind something which is arriving with an already committed readership.

    the fact of this high readership also means that insecurities about the next level need not be too great.. things will change and once online some needed adjustments will be obvious.. and that’s okay.. food has to be constantly tasted and seasoned during cooking.

    which leads me to..

    anton.

    anton is a real asset i think.. and a professional who could keep things moving along with these changes and adjustments.

    so..

    wherever the funding arises from i think it would be worth having a couple of paid positions.. even if the may is more a token of appreciation than being in line with current fee’s.

    having helped with new community sites in the past, i know how much work is put in on the design and ‘back-end’ of the sites..

    and as glenn says..

    50 usd is no trouble.. a paypal account for the purpose of self funding could be set up in a moment and we could all start to put money into the pot right-away.. merry-jesus-birthday style.

  61. Patricia Lay-Dorsey

    ERIC

    Love love LOVE your In and Around Kibbutz photos!!! Brings back such memories of the weekend I spent there in October. And, you REALLY captured that magical light. Good work on this and on BURN. It’s all very exciting!

    ARI

    Did I say DAH’s neighbor was “boring”??? Yeah, right.

    DAH & ALL

    I’m missing something here but maybe I’m not the only one…

    I can understand where we’d need $$$ for BURN if 1) we were planning on paying staff and/or the photographers whose work we show, and/or 2) we intended to publish in print as well as online. So far I’ve heard the possibility that we publish an annual “best of the best” print edition of BURN, but otherwise, as I understand it, our magazine will be an online zine. So why are we talking about the need to finance it with sponsers, advertisers and/or donations?

    How much does it cost to put out a zine? Pete, what’s your experience with The 37th Frame? And any others here who have put out online magazines? Where does $$ come into it and how did you get your funding?

    Speaking of donations, like Glenn I’d be happy to give back to this community with my own donation to the magazine. If we could set it up so folks could donate online that would be ideal. And if it were tax deductible, even better.

    I’m personally concerned about the use of ads or coporate sponsorship. As others have mentioned, our blog can get pretty hairy at times and we sure don’t want Big Brother looking over our shoulder. But maybe there’s a way to get sponsorship and still avoid any chance of censorship or corporate oversight.

    All this is SO EXCITING!!!!! And somehow the logo with the tilted “u” makes BURN work for me. It feels just right for us. HUGE THANKS to Anton, Chris, Eric, Tom, David McG, Andrew, Erica and of course the Man himself for all your HARD HARD HARD WORK and creative, original thinking. Safe travels home, Anton & Chris.

    love & hugs

    Patricia

  62. Patricia Lay-Dorsey

    I want to hop right on David B’s suggestion that as soon as we get $$, we give some of it to Anton, our tech wizard. And if we could give him a paying part-time job as our BURN webmaster, all the better. That is, if he has the time and inclination to take it on. Seems only fair. Can you even imagine how much he should have received if we’d paid him the going rates for this weekend’s work??? Not to mention his travel expenses! And he’s done it ALL out of love. What a guy.

    Patricia

  63. Lassal

    hmmm ….

    it would be nice, but … I think DAH mentioned once that Magnum has absolutely nothing to do with BURN (it was when we started thinking about the mag). Or did things change?

    Of course there will be a (much welcomed) association due to DAH being from Magnum, but I think we will have to find means to survive alone. Non?

    I still remember the image someone brought on of all of us partying in an apartment … and I still see it this way, only that the appartment got bigger and has now some additional rooms: There is still the chatter in the kitchen while having a coffee, then more serious conversation in the library corner, some people preparing prints in a separate room, others working on texts for exhibitions. Things got a little more real in different aspects as before, and I see this as a gain, not as a trade for the fun talks at the coffeetable…

  65. Lassal

    ERIC

    what shall I say besides … fantastic?!

    :)))

    Love the grafiti on the window. Is it in the apartment? And wow, what a superb view! No wonder DAH has good ideas all the time :)))

    Thanks for sharing, Eric.

    Have some quality time with your family – it is really great of them to support you and lend you to us from time to time. I kind of imagine your job not letting you have too much free time altogehter.

    I’m looking forward to meet all of them in Brussels very soon.

    :)

  66. tom hyde

    Eric, wonderful, wonderful pictures as always … my wife Sue is a big fan of yours as well :))))

    Anton, Sue says you need a tattoo of BURN on the back of your head :)))

    Chris, Sue wants to know what kind of music do you play?

  69. Akaky

    First, who or what is Tesco?

    Second, why do dogs need clothing in the first place? I dont think the PETA people care one way or the other if animals wear their own fur.

    Third, English is not the first language of everyone involved in this endeavor. Shouldnt we explain that a Burn dog and a hot dog are not the same thing, and that perhaps the reason we may offer clothing for canines is to prevent a rapid and perhaps ecologically unsustainable expansion in the population of chili dogs both here in this our Great Republic and around the world? Okay, time to go off meandering. Have a nice day!

  71. Paul Treacy

    In time, it may be a good idea to set up a BURN a/c at http://www.blurb.com as another way to earn some money. Their quality is extremely good if the files supplied are well prepared. They also have the B3 pro color workflow system that allows for consistent hi grade finishing. I’m CERTAIN that lots and lots of people would buy these. As to the financial logistics and the like, while that would have to be discussed, I guess.

    It’s another facility that can add to the overall display and distribution of the wonderful talents at play here.

    http://www.blurb.com

    I may go dark again for a few days as I finish editing anther short film.

    If this has already been mentioned, then sorry for repeating. I’ve read a lot over the last couple of days but not everything.

  72. Tom Leininger

    Well David, how often do you want to publish? If it is in the blog format, like InSight America, that gave me hope for a lot of content that never showed up…so you might want be clear as to when and how often the site would be updated.

    Also, please have an RSS feed to the comments. Without it here on your site, it is like a closed society. Just a thought. I do not check in often because there are times I do not want to read 116 comments, then miss a day or so, and I have another 111 comments to read, but I am not sure where I left off, and RSS feed would make this easier.

    Good luck, the easier you can make it, the better off it would be. If it was just pictures and no multimedia, that would great, there are other places out there who do that.

    I think it would be interesting to see what you come up with. Sites like http://www.blueeyesmagazine.com/ http://visualdiaries.com and previously published untitled magazine, have done this before. So, I will be interested to see what you come up with.

    What would make burn different from these, and different from anything else, that is the question I have….

    Good Luck,

    Tom

    PS: if you could add an rss feed to this site, that would be great.

  75. Tim Ripley

    LASSAL’s idea for Print donations from contributors on Burn is an avenue to explore. It gives anyone the chance to support the site, and gives us all an

    opportunity to collect each others work.

    IF this was to work it may be wise to set up a standard at which every contributor follows set requirements. Images all a certain size on THIS or THAT kind of paper, packaged in that sort of Archival Box/Matte.. Jsut a thought… Quality Control, etc..

    SOMEGUY mentioned -regarding the the possibility of following projects- and maybe this to can be explored as another generator of dinero.. One may simply offer a set of images -in an auction setting- lets say a dozen.

    As the theme digs deeper, interest and values climb. It may be in the interest of Burn to feed the story in bites so the audience returns. not every peice, but you’ll come to spot the diamonds… Certain things could be done in real time…

    Take breaking news accounts for example..

    Feel free to extrapolate.. I’m no marketing genius but there should be a way for blending advertising – Merch – Prints in a manner that feeds the Fire.

  77. Lassal

    I do not want to burn the positive thinking here, but please consider: only because something is for sale does not mean someone will want to buy it (for the asked price).

    So we really will have to make this interesting in more than one or two ways. Really think “quality”, really think “long term”, really think “max value” and “return of investment” for possible customers (us or others). By doing this well for ourselves we will do it well for others. By doing this well for others we will do it well for us.

    Damn language barrier …

  78. Ari Baiense

    Oops PATRICIA…

    May be my fault. Eric said Patrizia (??)

    Anyway, was just kidding OK?

    Hope you read when I said, a few posts ago, that I loved the link you gave us with the amazing mix of singers around the world singing Stand by me.

    And I really like to read your words of motivation to everyone. Big kisses to you!

    DAH’S SQUAD (Anton, David McG, Erica, Tom, Eric, Andrew, Chris… Did I miss someone?),

    The exchange of good ideas and experiences here is really priceless.

    Will you guys be able to compile all the good ones? God bless you all!

    See you later (after other hundreds of messages…)

  79. chris bickford

    It appears the inaugural burn meeting is drawing to a close…David has headed off to a Magnum meeting and Anton is about to leave for his flight back to Brussels…but I must say, we ended it in style, my friends, you’d all be proud. Last night David and Anton worked until about 11 pm, with me and Anna B offering suggestions, comments, company, and some random shenanegans and silliness…Our new friends Patricia and Jessica, visitors from Switzerland, brought over a steaming hot Spanish tortilla to keep us all going. We finally managed to drag Anton away from the computer, piled into two cars and headed for an uber-hip party full of “beautiful people” in a beautiful Bowery loft…we felt a little out of place at first, but I guess we got used to it, since we stayed there until 5 in the morning…I will have to post a pic of Anton from the party, his bald head covered in lipstick kisses…After that we headed for the Odessa diner in the East Village for some grub. I took a stroll with one of our Swiss friends around the park while we were waiting for our food…a waning but nearly full moon peaking through light cloud cover, blue twilight breaking everywhere…it was magic. By the time we left the diner it was broad daylight.

    Back at the Kibbutz the view of the skyline was incredible, the glass of the skyscrapers shimmering gold in the morning light. We all flopped down in our respective sleeping zones and didn’t resurface until about noon.

    Anton is leaving in just a couple of minutes, and this place will soon be very quiet. It’s been a four-day marathon of great people, great ideas, a lot of work, a lot of laughs….so much has been discussed, both here and online, so many ideas have been sparked, developed, blown out of all proportion, tossed away, turned into jokes…David has probably given at least five camera bag demos in this time, cracking us up with his pantomime of himself in action with his bag strapped to his side, bobbing and weaving, making a full 360 degree ballet turn on one foot…we’ve made every kind of joke, expression, and combination of words using “burn” that we could think of…and we have, through it all, kept our eye on the prize, this thing called Burn that is being born…

    There is definitely the sense that this is the start of something big…To call it a “magazine” doesn’t do it justice…there is something very different about this whole thing; it is a community, an open-source educational resource, an incubator for developing talent, and a legitimate and already well-trafficked showcase for the next generation if image-makers and visual storytellers. And it has grown completely organically, completely grassroots, from the ground up. All of us have offered our thoughts and opinions in real time, and every single person who logs in here has a voice and will be heard. Of course we all know that it never would have happened without David’s vision, energy, and boundless generosity. But he has always made it “ours”. And he has always insisted on keeping it honest, real, uncompromising, and completely democratic. Feathers get ruffled occasionally, miscommunication and misunderstandings happen…but respect and good honest communication will always allow for those incidents to become opportunities for growth…and this thing, which we now call BURN, well let’s just say it’s getting brighter and brighter….

    Anton has just left. Suddenly this place is very quiet…I think I’m going to crawl up into the loft and try to sleep…

    Meeting is adjourned.

  81. Ari Baiense

    CHRIS,

    Have a good and deserved sleep!

    Can almost feel being there, in the mood surrounding this loft… Amazing work, great expectations and hope for the newborn bUrn.

    Also good to hear about Anna B. again.

    ANNA,

    Good news from you recent trip?

    Hugs & Kisses,

    Ari B.

  82. Hillary Atiyeh

    ** An Event/Fundraiser is a good way to raise some money.

    Food, Booze, Fun, Discussions, Slide Shows … more meetings of the minds… … with a silent auction of DONATED Prints, Books, Bags, bUrn T”s & Gear…Whatever quality items individuals or companies are willing to give … depending on the crowd & the stuff…it could potentially pull in big bucks! Free bUrn lighters and rolling papers at the door to get the party started…

    NYC of course would be a great place to have a soiree but maybe a festival already pulling in photographers could be a good venue to tag onto …maybe…Look 3?…Gina?

    If bUrn functions as a non profit co-operative more people would be willing to donate larger amounts of $ at that time as they can write it off, besides I think many of us would be willing to contribute what we can…buying something or not…non profit or not!

    ** Advance subscription sales to the print magazine could offset some printing costs…

    I really like the idea of selling individual images & Books from the site like the online agencies, set standards and maybe a process of selecting images to keep quality control. Of course a percentage would go back to the house.

    The merch is good! not really as a money maker but great for branding and getting the word out. (Girlie shirts and panties please!)

    ** BTW The logo design/typography is brilliant!!!**

    * ~ * MUCHOS KUDOS TO ALL OF YOU * ~ *

  83. chris bickford

    Couldn’t sleep, ended up cleaning this place up a little, it looks like a bunch of guys have been crashing out here and partying all week…Thanks for the sleep wish Ari, I’ll sleep well tonight for sure.

    Young Tom, once we get this thing off the ground, it’ll be time to start “STaSH!”…I’ve got t-shirt ideas already:) Oh, and tell your wife I play BOTH kinds of music, country AND western…sorry, very stale joke…but you can check out some old stuff I recorded at http://www.myspace.com/chrisbickfordmusic. These days I mostly do cover stuff, just whatever I like myself that I know others will enjoy. Pays better:)

    Eric, great photos; you and Tom should make a diptych of your hula photos:)

    It was a real pleasure to meet both you guys. I look forward to the next time…

    We have been discussing the financing a lot over the last few days. It can go a lot of different ways. It could go for the big money, or run on a shoestring, or something in the middle. I’m in favor of sponsorship, but not advertising. There is a huge amount of money out there, but we only need a small piece of it. And the more corporate branding and identity is introduced onto the site, the more it kills the clean, completely content-driven aesthetic and philosophy of what we are doing.

    Really, we only need enough to pay for an administrative space and a couple of administrators. Beyond that, it’s gravy. David has mentioned the idea of companies–or private individuals–sponsoring specific grants, so, for instance, Nikon would sponsor a 5k grant to the EPF for a single photographer, and the winner would be determined by the EPF jury…this kind of money is a drop in the bucket for large corporations, but huge for our operating costs, and the company’s name on the prize is the only advertising they require…

    I’m also in favor of small private donations. It worked for Obama, didn’t it? Fifty bucks here, a hundred there, maybe a little fund drive right here on the blog, we can RAISE the kind of money we need to get this thing off the ground. If nothing else, it would be worth a try. Wouldn’t it be great to know that the initial funding to get this thing off the ground was provided by the community itself?

    Once we have covered the initial operating costs, we can continue to discuss bigger financial ideas, but personally I think we should stay away from advertising. There are some great ideas being thrown about here, and I think between all of us we are going to come up with some really innovative ways to make it work.

  84. tom hyde

    Well then I have a request Chris … Panama Red, NRPS :))

    See ya on OBX before too long I suspect.

    tom

  85. Eric Espinosa

    LASSAL,

    The graffiti were in the stairwell, as you go towards the roof. This whole Kibbutz building is amazing… full of artists, great location and great view…the place is buzzing and I am sure it would be a great source of inspiration for anyone staying there… You are right to thank my wife for letting me go… She sometimes (often) thinks that this whole photography thing is taking a lot of time but she knows t matters to me so she is hanging in there :):):)!!!!! By the way, I just checked your site…looking good!!!!!

    TOM,

    Glad you liked the pics and that your wife is a fan… My wife actually thought your pic was much better than mine…Always trust your wife to tell it to you straight :):):):) Maybe we can change wives :):):):). Was great meeting you Tom and I count on the print exchange now.

    CHRIS,

    Was also great meeting you. You are such a talented photographer. I had sort of seen some of your surf pictures but not all of them and this will be suchj a strong body of work when this project is completed. I wish I could travel to Brzail with you for the Bahia carnival… You guys did great with David and Anton after we had left it seems. I cannot believe you went out again until 5am in the morning…Wonder where David finds all this energy…

    MICHAEL,

    OH is treating me well stil for another 3 months only and then, back to Europe.

    PATRICIA,

    I cannot agree more on somehow finding a way of helping Anton who has done most of the work… I cannot wait to see the site up in the coming week or 2.

    Cheers,

    Eric

  86. david alan harvey

    DAVID B…MARCIN..

    i am against ads…it is hard for me to try to imagine a clean sophisticated magazine with ads ruining the very “look” i would like to create…let’s see if we can do this without ads..sponsors yes…that gives us another look…i mean, if say HP was to sponsor a photographer to go shoot an assignment and then make a print show on one of their printers, then they would of course get their name on the site, but as a sponsor, not as a direct advertiser…maybe i am just being to “high minded” but perhaps this will work…of course, my long range goal would be to make sure photographers got paid…but it seems that the most practical way to do this would be to have the say 10 assignments sponsored by 10 different companies..now that does not get everyone paid who may have pictures on the site, but it does get some of them funded and the others would all have incentive to be chosen for one of the assignments…just thinking out loud…in any case, you know very well i stand strong for photographer’s rights…so, anyone on my site will be given the very best deal i can possibly give them…that is my history, that is where i come from philosophically…life on the net will evolve drastically in the next few years…who can imagine where it may all go?? i guess we are about to find out…

    SOMEGUY…

    you have some good thoughts…yes,of course, i come from the world of print and am just beginning to realize the dimensions of online publishing…i have a lot to learn…and i must be practical as well…if i did some of the things you suggest, i could imagine never leaving my computer from morning to night….as i have written many times, i am only of use to the photographers i mentor here by being an active photographer myself…the balance of my own shooting along with the time i spend looking at the work of others is a balance that must be carefully tweaked…after two years here, so far so good…i managed to publish Living Proof while here and am working constantly on Family Drive and doing whatever short commissions, ad jobs etc to keep food on the table…the only way i could do what you suggest would be to have a couple of full time editors on hand..these editors would have to be fairly paid…..this brings us back to the discussion, “how do we finance BURN?”…

    your complaint of “the mine” of too many comments and losing some valuable treasure buried somewhere in there is something i have tried to reckon with…it is a good point….but it is also the very nature of blogging…and the fact that we get a high volume of comments on this site is exactly why i have received the sponsorship funding that i do have for the EPF …hard to measure “popularity” and a loyal readerships without all those comments…if i started editing out the “chat” , i thing folks might stop writing…

    maybe we can do a “best comments of the week” box..a compendium of the very best writing (you have a place!) which would then encourage more “best writing”…what do you think??

    however, do think you will see a more manageable reader comment base when the features of the photographers are posted…all will be blogs, so the author of the story will be responsible for their own comments pertaining to their specific story…

    you are right…no Magnum Magazine so far…i just came from a Magnum board meeting, and of course the idea has been around for many many years…but, this is a full time job for a dozen people that we just do not have….in any case, i would not want to “beat Magnum”…i am part of Magnum…whatever we decide to do online, i will be there with full support …and of course there is always something to be said for the stealth of a one man band…

    mine to lose??? i do not feel i have anything to lose my anonymous friend…like what???

    if all of this happens it will be icing on the cake..i live my life in a manner that makes work not work…i am having fun..ask anyone who knows me…and all i see is a worthwhile collaborative that hopefully will put some new photographers in the spotlight…and , as i am sure you know, doing things for others always feels good…

    if, for whatever reason, things do not manifest themselves in a way that seems “right”, then i just hit “delete” and walk away having met some truly fascinating new friends, seen some refreshing new work, and had a truly great time doing it…

    my BURN is like a campfire burning, not the burn that would sting your finger if you put your hand into the fire..always two ways to look at everything amigo…that is why i like the “edginess” of BURN…can go either way..

    what about you??? your writing is clever…any photographs to share???

    i do thank you for thinking…i welcome your visions always…

    cheers, david

  87. Patricia Lay-Dorsey

    DAVID

    What a marathon you fellows have just run! We are so grateful and excited about BURN and where it will lead us…even if we don’t know exactly where that will be. That’s what’s so exciting about it all!

    Off the subject, but not really, since our subject here is always the photos we’re taking and projects we’re working on. This is regarding the edit you’ve kindly offered to do of the prints I sent you recently. Since sending them, of course I’ve continued shooting. There are a few new ones I like a lot, so if you could please keep them in mind when working on this edit of “Falling Into Place” I’d appreciate it. Not all are keepers but you’ll figure that out when you see them:

    http://www.pbase.com/windchimewalker/for_review16

    PASSWORD patricia

    Hope you were able to pick up the FotoMagico slideshow CD I mailed to the Magnum Office. It includes 33 slides plus music. At least now you’ll have something to show when/if the opportunity arises again.

    Now PLEASE get some sleep, you wild man!!!

    hugs

    Patricia

  88. david alan harvey

    PATRICIA…

    my dear friend , you must feel like you were placed on the “back BURNer”….i mean, i promised you an edit LAST weekend…at least we spoke by phone so you knew what was coming..things just got crazy around here and one of my disappointments was that you were not here…this was definitely your kind of thing and mine…festive atmosphere, but not a party..lots and lots of laughter and with good ideas springing right up after somebody just said something outrageous and funny…McGowan sitting there all day on the laptop on webcam(8 hrs.)….i mean, that alone makes me laugh out loud right now…we watched him eat lunch for God’s sake!!!..and every once in awhile we would forget he was there and he would get bored and leave and then come back and try to get our attention and then we would all feel bad and give him way more attention than anyone else in the room for a few minutes..

    i swear the making of BURN is going to be way more fun than the actual item..hey, that is it!!! new idea!! we never actually make this magazine…we just keep TRYING…hmmmmmm, maybe we create a tv sitcom based on a bunch of bloggers who decide they are going to publish an international photodriven magazine..it does sound funny, doesn’t it??

    my oh my,the mind twists when trying to think of ways to raise money!!

    hugs, david

    p.s. Magnum meetings for next two days..promise promise, your work right after….good??

  89. Lisa Hogben

    DAVID, ALL

    I have an idea for income generation which I believe would be a completely sustainable- even if its not unique- its an adaption of a method that monetizes other kinds of information technology and one I am personally all about promoting as a possible way forward for photo/video journalists in the future….

    But I am not going to tell you here…just in case its gets adapted by someone else first…

    Stay tuned…

  90. Patricia Lay-Dorsey

    Of course, good!

    Gosh, David, I am just SO pleased that you folks were all able & willing to put so much of yourselves into the birthing of this amazing new entity. And yes, it definitely sounds like my kind of gig. But, hey, I need a bit more sleep than you ;=)

    hugs back at ya

    Patricia

  93. audrey bardou

    Hello,

    I also follow in the opinion of us be self-financing, to become our own investors, at least at the beginning to throw the magazine, I believe us and I am ready to give my money(silver)… after maybe which the magazine can live on its publication annual as makes Reporters without Borders ?

    Eric, merci ! la lumière est extraordinaire !

    Patricia, I love 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 and 11

    David, I do not know if you had the time to see my new pictures http://gallery.me.com/audreybardou#100811

    Have a nice day, audrey

  94. Ana Yturralde

    CHRIS BICKFORD,

    Touching words about the creation of BURN at the Kibbutz and all it means… really. This is going to be a BIG thing. I’m sure of it!

    By the way, just checked your web site. Images full of emotions!!

    Peace

    Ana

  95. someguy

    David, i’m really chuffed that you’ve taken so much time to respond. i’m fearful that i’ve tipped a bit on the side of provoke verse promote; i suppose it’s the dark by-product of wanting to see something so grand happen, that seems so possible, but the only way to help seems to be through brute, bare-knuckle enthusiasm pressuring it.

    i’m also sorry for putting you at odds with the Magnum mission, of course your partnership there should be respected, but the concept of agility with smaller machines is what i hoped to impress, a bit too over the top i suppose :-(

    With regards to the bold statement, ‘it’s yours to lose…’ I know this doesn’t sit well with you David, but I don’t apologise for that. For me watching what’s happening here makes me think that this could be photography’s own 1927 Solvay Conference; of course Einstein was there and four other Nobel prize winners, but of the twenty-nine other young participants, twelve more would later become Nobel prize winners for their own contributions, one young lady twice over.

    To this day historians still contemplate the lottery-like probability of that intersection; the chance that all those minds could assemble at the same time and the same place at a time when people couldn’t assemble so easy. Ironically that meeting produced one of the most famous photographs in the history if physics:

    http://www.maxborn.net/index.php?page=filmnews

    I think time’s moved on and technology has moved on and today David you’ve united these same disparate bundles of talent and possibility, but rather than squeeze the atom, there’s a similar thirst to squeeze a deeper understanding out of the still image.

    And of course you’re right David, this is a camp fire and this is family, but I can’t help but think about the constellation and concentration of this brave new passionate thinking. The still image had a monopoly on media until recently. But Darwin is now on the scene and the merits of the still image need to be re-explored, maybe reinvented, but surely thoroughly understood in this new multi-media storm. If Burn doesn’t seed the next Solvay, I’ve not seen many more equal sparks on the horizon.

    I’m also aware David that you never set out to address the threat to the still image, but you have assembled the army of both photographers and critical thinkers best able to discuss it. The evolution of interesting essays (striving to succeed with the least words) that stand up in today’s media climate is proof of this talent. It is this opportunity cost that makes me anxious when I think about something to lose.

    But this is really just admitting the obvious; I hope it’s equally obvious from Solvay that there can be a balance struck to lay out some of your love and attention to some of your under-studies, again, maybe admitting the obvious.

    As for your own contribution David, I think you already practice soundly the socratic method. It is still so relevant to teaching and still so damn efficient, so much of the effort falls on the student and so much of the wandering is available to the teacher. I hope this questioning nature of yours manifests itself in to focus rooms where you’ve laid out some of these soulful concepts for people to ponder, and these same hungry and passionate people don’t need to be restrained and you don’t always need to be there, but someone has to lay these problems out there once in a while for people to work together to solve, and they will, around the clock, and be better photographers for doing so. I do agree with you David about the actual essays attracting discussion attention, but since each essay at its best is something that washes over you with emotion; it’s hard to stimulate more discussion than applause. I hope i’m wrong about this, but it seems to be the behaviour on other similar offerings.

    So this concept of focus ‘rooms’ could make Burn a user-friendly seminar, and rooms are easily implemented in blogging software, this then forms a library as a by-product; this could solve the problems with re-burying the treasure. This concept of ‘questions’ could solve the time you have to surrender to the mission David. This concept of ‘collaborators’ could be the gentle prodders not to restrain, but to stimulate with further questions or concepts, ideas relevant to solving the problem, maybe one per topical room (again easy to implement with blogging software); this prevents the need for high-paid editors. This feast of questions will open the doors to a wider audience and make it more of a university than one big club house, with wider doors comes wider attendance, with wider attendance comes greater traffic, and traffic from unique IP addresses can be tracked and this is the language of funding David, not with some garish logo’s distracting us from what we came here to enjoy, but funding purely by allowing awards/contributions to be named after them, companies love the concept of education, even names like Sony Ericson is now offering money if you are willing to call it the S.E. Award, but S.E. doesn’t understand photography, it does understand education, but it understands best unique IP address hits. Maybe I’ll prove this to you someday through an award from the bank I work for :-)

    Alas, i think the concept of someguy has lived out its purpose. i think i will get thee self to thee scanner and be better ready to make a submission when the time next presents itself as ‘myself’.

    Best Wishes.

    ..

  96. Joni Karanka

    Selling limited editions of prints would be good. I guess you all know Jen Bekman’s 20×200:

    http://www.20×200.com/

    It seems to go really well. The idea is to produce 3 print sizes and the number of prints is inversely proportional to their size, so you have 2 massive ones and 200 small ones. Anyhow, selling prints at affordable prizes online could potentially work, as far as the work itself is of high (single image) quality.

  97. Laredo

    What about sells Photography signed and PRINTED.

    We have to choose maybe 40pictures (our pictures) very cool have them printed in a few copy and then gather them in one place and sell trought the web site… with the Photography sign and the BURN Logo..

  100. someotherguy

    yes, that’s a great idea. Prints at affordable prices, say from $ 50 to 500 depending on the size. 50% to the photographer and 50%

    to finance the webmagazine.

  101. anton

    BURNers… and ALL

    back home… missing you all already… i want to come back…

    ALL

    thanks a million for all the comments and the great ideas and offers to help and all… will get a lot of stuff done “soonest”, and if any help needed, i will post immediately here…. you guys are all great, really…

    cheers,

    BURNton

    :)

  102. david alan harvey

    SOMEGUY….

    you are quite the great thinker…and i now understand a bit better your words “something to lose” from this most recent missive…

    yes, yes i see it…and as the world of traditional print is crumbling before our very eyes and technology is allowing us so much freedom combining video and stills and voice over and original music etc etc, we would indeed “lose” something if we did not take advantage of the organic nature of what is growing in this garden….

    our worst case scenario here is this…by launching soonest a “model” we will have a better version of what we have now…even those of us who have seen some stories in development here , will actually be “surprised” when they are all up in nice style….even if we do not add one single new person to our forum, we will have a better looking “campus” to further our educational imperative…

    please please join us as “yourself” with words of wisdom, some good old fashioned still photography, or a movie you make just for us right here…whatever mistakes i have made here, or am about to make, and then fix and then start again , will always be taken as part of my own “education process”….your input, either critical or supportive, will be taken in the very context you have set up for yourself…valued for its intelligence…

    and , of course, i will just have to be me as well…going on my gut instincts, sensing the “right moment”, celebrating the talent of others….

    i do enjoy the camaraderie of small campfire or clubhouse…hence Magnum instead of Getty…i am unlikely to change much on that score…however, in this “new age of electronic reason” the parameters of “clubhouse” have already expanded exponentially and have brought me the likes of Audrey and Glenn and Marcin and Rafal and Patricia and Bob and Panos and Erica and Anton and Tom and Lassal and YOU…all folks i have “met” right here…

    so, let’s keep the window open…fresh air circulating breathes life into a room….and at the same time, please give me a chance to do what i think i can do….the buzz of shared thought has already taken hold…still, and i think you may agree, there has to be a singular vision for how the gallery is lit..how the show is hung…someone who takes in the palette of ideas and then brushes them to canvas….

    join me in New York when you have time…i think you must know by now, my door is open…or, if i am your territory, there is always time for coffee or whatever….

    many thanks for the log you have thrown on the campfire…

    cheers, david

  103. Justin Partyka

    Prints sound like a good idea to raise some money.

    How about having a BURN show to raise money?

    Find a venue in NYC who supports the cause and will offer the space for free or next to nothing.

    Those readers and contributors of Road Trips who want to see BURN become a reality and success can donate a limited edition collectors print for the show. All proceeds from the first event would go to getting BURN off the ground.

    DAH could curate and select the images from our work, or it could be a group effort or have a guest curator.

    If it works it could become an annual event, or take place 3-4 times a year in different cities with the profits from the prints being split 50-50 between BURN and the photographer.

    Cheers,

    Justin

  104. Neil

    Congrats on the productivity of you kibbutz-goers! I’m glad you had a good time and seeing motion from this is very exciting.

    I just want to say that it won’t just be Panos who buys a burn bandanna…

    Limited edition prints is a good idea. I’d buy affordable prints for my wall!

    What is the Burn model right now? What is the next step?

    I like the idea of “work in progress” and seperate “final stories” so something updates with interesting teasers/ideas and the audience is brought into the production of the final essay. Education and entertainment. I love photos but I love the stories behind the photos too!

  105. Lassal

    “How about having a BURN show to raise money?

    Find a venue in NYC who supports the cause and will offer the space for free or next to nothing.”

    Why only NYC???

    Once this is set we could try to find places EVERYWHERE! We are international, some are in India, some in Scotland, some in Brazil, some … We could have a road show getting around there…

    … in the tradition of thinking big. :)

  106. Justin Partyka

    Lassal,

    My post did indicate other cities in addition to NYC. But it seems to make (to me at least) sense that NYC would be the place to launch such a fund raising event.

    I totally agree that other locations would be great too. Obviously there would be some work arranging such events and as you point out we are international. So if we could get the man and woman power behind such things, they could take place anywhere.

  107. Patricia Lay-Dorsey

    AUDREY

    I’m so glad you reposted the link to your new work. I’d missed it the first time. My favorites are 1, 2, 4, 5, 6

    I very much like the idea of 7 but somehow would prefer your Mum off to one side or perhaps the photo taken from below.

    Thanks so much for sharing your favorites of my new photos. I really feel like we’re sisters walking hand in hand doing our projects. We share such similar aesthetics.

    JUSTIN & LASSAL

    I think your collaborative idea is right on! A traveling BURN print exhibit to raise funds. But I’m with Justin, it’s inaugural exhibit should be in NYC.

    Now, to get practical. I’m assuming you’re talking about a show of matted rather than framed prints. Shipping framed prints to different venues would be unbelievably expensive. Of course we’d need an internaional exhibit committee to coordinate this undertaking ;=)

    SOMEGUY

    You are a treasure, my friend. So glad you found us and decided to share your views. Looking forward to meeting you by name & work!

    Patricia

  108. Charles Peterson

    A little late here to this thread:

    Print sales are ONE way to raise funds but certainly shouldn’t be seen as a primary one. Print sales can be fickle, so it’s best to see them as a bonus when and if they do happen. Plus someone has to stay on top of packing and shipping etc, lost or damaged prints, unhappy customers (believe me it does happen), etc etc. Something to think about.

    I’m not as opposed to advertising as some might be. If (and if it’s a big if) it can contained and it actually enhances vs distracts from the site. By that I mean choosing the types of advertising and it’s layout etc. Of course this may be more work and hassle than it’s worth. Just a thought.

    Sponsorship is good, and can be folded into the type of advertising I mentioned above. In other words, say Leica gave some $ for sponsorship and maybe featured an image by one of the contributors in an ad for the M8 taken by that contributor with an M8. Maybe the prints for sale are made with an Epson, or HP.

    Subscription is another way to go, but imo has to be kept low (say no more than $20 per year).

    Also, the idea of paying contributing photographers is a nice idea, but may not be a realistic one at least for the near future, unless one wants to go with heavy advertisers. Photographers should see this as a chance for exposure for projects that might not get it otherwise, therefore giving them the opportunity to sell prints, add to their portfolio, etc. This is different than the news stand mag that says “we have no budget” and yet are featuring huge vodka ads and so on (and usually blowing all of their photo budget on the fashion spread). Of course if the sponsorship idea can fly then the photographers wh are getting sponsored will of course receive some $. But I don’t think anyone should come into this thinking of it as a way to make some $.

    Charles

  109. Lassal

    Justin,

    sorry, reading my post now it looks as if I was upset about the NYC event proposal.

    That was absolutely NOT the case! Quite the contrary: I love the idea!!! I did not recognize your hint as to other locations, and you are absolutely right as to NYC being the obvious place to start. I was just overwhelmed – quite positively – thinking we could (later) think bigger than that and there would be ways because we are spread around the world!!!

    Of course this needs some time to build up, as you already pointed out. But once we have one potential show with excellent material, which maybe (or maybe not) was sponsored by different companies and curated by DAH, we could open some doors. I am sure I could open at least one door here in Frankfurt.

    :)))))

    Sorry for misleading tonality here…

    Love the idea!! :)

  110. Lassal

    It is not about making € … It is about growth in an demanding environment … it is about giving and taking … it is about a chance we could have to maybe make something possible that otherwise would be so much harder.

  111. Justin Partyka

    LASSAL,

    Unfortunately “misleading tonality” is the nature of the internet sometimes! No need to apologise, but thank you. Frankfurt sounds as good a place as any to have one of these potential shows.

    PATRICIA,

    Glad you like the idea. I don’t see it as a touring show though, mainly because of the expenses involved as you point out. I was thinking that each show would be its own entity, probably even featuring different work. I personally always prefer framed prints in a show, and because the whole idea is to sell the work from the show in as easy a way as possible for all concerned, I had thought that perhaps the prints could be made (and framed) in the cities of the shows to save costs etc.

    I envision that these events could be on for a week (perhaps two) and the closing day would hold an event / reception upon which potential buyers could come and talk to the photographers etc and hopefully give some money to BURN by buying a print which they could take away that evening.

    So there would be no show “opening” but people would have a week to see the work and think about any purchases before the closing event.

    I’m sure there are lots of drawbacks to this which I cannot see right now, but I think in theory it could work.

    The key point though will be to promote these things like there is no tomorrow

    CHARLES,

    For the very reasons you point out -selling prints online is not a good idea in my opinion. It could just end up creating more trouble than it is worth. At least with a show, people see what they are going to get and the work is “sold as seen.”

    I also agree this is not about making money in terms of profit, but costs have to be met and obviously if BURN could get some money behind it there is potential for lots of things to happen, such as (partly) funded group projects etc etc.

    The idea of sponsorship from related companies is good too.

  112. Lassal

    Justin

    thanks for understanding :)

    Guess I’ll get off here now for today. I kinda lost my communication techniques tonight. It was a tough day.

    What I meant about money/chance is that you run risk of endangering chances if one looks at the bucks first. And this is a hell of a good chance for a lot of pepople to do great stuff and get it out there.

    Almost everything we have been talking about does not only involve a lot of work but also money. So yes, of course it should be aim of BURN to find the means to pay for it’s projects. That’s why we are discussing this here … :))))

    As to the shows. I am pretty sure I could put up something as I said above. It is easier to put up a show where things are not for sale directly. At least here it is. But you could always lead people to where they could buy… Obviously with a dangerous time gap in between where people could change their minds.

    Yes, a show would cost money and maybe we could get a sponsor. But a good road show could increase prestige too. I sincerely doubt that we would sell much (if at all) in Frankfurt, if people could buy from the wall … Unless you are in a very good gallery. I have observed this often.

    I think in NYC people do have a different approach to this kind of things.

    I know some people from museums, galleries etc. here who could give some input on how to best do it in Germany (hypotetically speaking for now). I’ll do some research on that, ok?

    A lot of things will have to be accomplished before that anyway.

    A lot of work ahead!

    By the way, I just dropped out of EPF, I fear. I pushed the reset-button on my project and will start more or less over. Just wrote David an email about it. I might still have enough images, but I am not sure about it.

    I had just finished programming the flash-parts and it kind of fell apart as I saw it together for the first time. So I’ll do it over. No problem.

    Guess I’ll have a lot of free time in 2009 :)

    http://www.astrangerswish.com

    Good night everyone…

    Sweet dreams!

  113. chris bickford

    Someguy, whoever you are, I hope we meet you in person someday. You have quite a mind, and your input here is really stimulating.

    Ana, thanks for the kind words.

    Tom Hyde, you are a COMMUNIST!

  114. tom hyde

    Comrade Bickford, many great revolutionary greetings from the frozen Northwest tundra. I regret to inform, it’s back to the reeducation camp for you my friend.

  116. marcin luczkowski

    David

    I apologize for my absence during so important time for this forum and for you. I have crazy time now, but soon it should be over. I think You know, this is always pleasure to participete in every big moment for this forum for me, but for a while I will be only reader.

    Of course if you think I could help in any case, just give me a note. As usually.

    sorry for english but I have no mind for gramar. :)

    peace for all.

    ps. I have to paint one of the Stations of the Cross at 30x30cm convas with effect like rubens at 200×150 cm. in one day… of course.

    so wish me luck, like I wish you with “our baby BURN”. :)

  117. Sam

    David – All

    First time in front of the screen for a while,

    lots of steam being generated here…

    as always it’s infectious.

    I think Charles suggestion of subscription is a good one. You can take it a bit further.

    KCRW is a LA based (internet) radio station – a great one too I might add. Could be an interesting model to look at, as they are subscriber supported.

    They are funded by a blend of sponsorship and subscription. The subscription is multi-leveled and not enforced but requested. In other words you can listen on line anytime for free but they do ask you to pay a subscription. They have a different levels of subscription. The basic is about $25 a year. Paying this you know your helping to keep things going, giving to something you enjoy and appreciate.

    The next step up you get a small gift package (say a mug or t-shirt or 5 postcard set etc.) – this could be $5 a month or $60 a year. Then you could have a premium level ($???) where you would receive some sort of year book/annual (best of 2009) or signed prints/ tickets to exhibitions or a photo book(s) from a sponsor (book publisher).

    They also do pledge drives and sweepstakes in co-ordination with sponsors (from i-pods to cars and holidays!!!).

    With some adaptation I think something along those lines could work well…

    I hope this provides some food for thought – or some oxygen to Burn!

    cheers

    Sam

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