BURN is buzzing…..in New York…..now….
wherever i went at the recent New York Photo Festival in the last couple of days, BURN was the talk of the town…now yes of course it would SEEM like that to ME…..but, even factoring out the dah pride thing, BURN was buzzing…..
however, forget that….the important thing right now for all of us is the response you have given us starting within seconds of us putting up the donation button…..as many of you know i was reluctant to put up a donate button…..hard for me to ask…but the response has been humbling to say the least….YOU have saved BURN…well, you have saved BURN for another month or so…but, that might be just about right….we are making the big push for responsible sponsorship, setting up a gallery for your work, continuing as per normal my personal mentoring for some of you, and continuing to put out an online magazine (annual print)where we can share our opinions on a wide variety of styles …. where the integrity and morality of the work is just as important as the aesthetic……
i want us to be on the high ground…as sponsors now view us, each person here is personally responsible for our move into a whole new world of publishing….what you now write is read by many in our craft and in our art…your words are now more than ever IMPORTANT….as you hold me to my responsibilities, i will hold you to yours…..
think before you write and write exactly as you think…
as we move closer to Look3 and the announcement of our EPF grant recipient, our discovery/promotion of the new talent imperative here on BURN will clearly be manifested….you may or may not agree with the finalists and the final jury choice, but i do not want anyone to doubt the integrity of the selection….Anton and i together went through all 1,200 entries…i made the selection of the ten finalists within the context of serious second opinion from Anton….so we alone are responsible for the ten finalists soon to be presented on BURN starting probably on Tuesday….a prestigious eclectic jury of peers will make the final choice for the 2009 recipient….neither Anton nor i will have a vote towards the grant recipient….there will be other, soon to be announced, support for the remaining finalists as well…
our potential sponsors will notice our traffic and the loyalty of our audience….mostly they will notice our audience produced content with the emphasis on authorship……they will definitely notice your volunteered financial support for BURN….i thank you for all three from the bottom of my heart….
part of my plan is to put some respected legends in our craft on commissions specifically for BURN…i want to do the same for some of you……not just the EPF finalists, but for the most talented of you here on BURN….for example, one legend producing original photography for BURN and three emerging photographers on an equal commissions doing original work as well….i can put this together with guaranteed photographer’s publishing rights, better than editorial day rates, and artistic control by the authors….how could i represent anything less??? we are going to rock with this one….
i will count on you to help keep BURN all it can be, and i will do all i can to help you to be all that you are….
…..david alan harvey
DAH and Fellow BURNERS,
“…think before you write and write exactly as you think…”
Always good advice, which I have tried in my own humble and at times inadequate way to follow, both on “Road Trips” and now on BURN. I don’t always leap up to add my own comments to every photo or essay these days, but it doesn’t mean I don’t look at and think about the photos, or read and think about the comments. Over the last couple of years, aside from the exposure here to a wide range of photography and personalities, and the fun of hanging out with DAH even at a distance, the writing… and the reading… I’ve done here has taught me a lot about communicating, how to look at photographs, how to think about them, and how to talk about them. And, at times, how to hold my peace.
One of the ironic characteristics of the Internet is that while it makes any kind of commenting, blurting out ideas, engaging in repartee, drooling out drivel, striking a macho pose, or being offhandedly dismissive, ridiculously easy, it also broadcasts the message infinitely in time and space… and the thoughtless or casual tweet becomes indelibly carved in cyberspace, possibly to return and haunt its owner years later. The Internet is also democratic… thoughtless, shallow, abrupt, or dismissive opinions get posted on the same forum with really heartfelt, sensitive, profound, and illuminating writing.
Now, one of the great attractions of “Road Trips” was a frothy mix of the lighthearted and casual with the serious and considered. And some of the ‘confrontational’ stuff actually added drama… and a more embracing synthesis once the drama was resolved. At times the balance may have veered a little off course, but DAH’s gentle nudge of the tiller was usually enough to regain balance and keep momentum building. You don’t need me to repeat what a marvelous journey this has been up to this point, and how excited everyone who has been involved, even peripherally like me, must feel. There’s a question in my mind about DAH’s words of caution above, however… will this make people too self-conscious to be spontaneous, take unexpected detours off-thread, or crack light-hearted jokes? Or maybe back down from a confrontation before they’ve actually said their piece?
Maybe I’m only projecting. If you’re really centered in who you are and what you’re doing, then damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead. Yes, the stakes are getting higher now, the audience is much bigger, but that’s no reason to get stagefright… Remember, it wasn’t ONLY the serious stuff that made both “Road Trips” and BURN such an attractive place to hang out. In the last couple of weeks it seems to me the commenters have mainly been ‘the usual suspects’, a rather circumscribed group that frankly feels a bit claustrophobic to me compared to “Road Trips” when it was in high gear. I’m hoping the posting of the EPF finalists will spark dialogue from a much wider range of commenters. And I promise not to personally hog the airwaves. Best of luck to you, DAH, and everybody else! But let’s not get too serious… remember, it’s only Rock’n’Roll.
buzz buzz buzz
i am a blondie bumblebee
i am watching the world turn
just round and round
don’t we all end
where we started out to bee
DAVID
you are so generous
dedicated,
YOU are making all this happen
with
your vision…
I am honored to be here,
will try oh so hard,
to better articulate my thoughts..
for you
for Burn….
for photography
and the craft
we all love
and
adore…..
filled with passion….
we are all here for the same reason….
inspiration,
intelligence,
and
a
LOVE
for
photography….
**
DAVID,
I do think that what makes this place so special indeed is that the audience is also producing content. Clearly, no matter where a great piece of work comes from, it is always a pleasure to look at it, but personally, the most satisfying for me, since the early days of Road Trips, has been to closely follow the growth and development of some of the readers. I find it so rewarding to see what some started with, witness the evolution of their work. A year ago, I remember that Panos was the man everyone hated when you announced the first EPR recipient… a year later almost, Panos just did a big exhibit of his Venice work…what a cool journey… similar stories are true of Patricia, Audrey. Sean is now rolling more than ever. James got some big award for his cemetery work… Hillary as well has just amazed me with what she just did… Of course, we cannot say that this all happened only because of Road Trips and Burn…Several of these photographers would have done good work regardless but you have acted as a catalyst for so many out there and you are still giving to so many that kick to get out and shoot, produce work… From a personal standpoint, the same is true for me. Just this week, I have been holding in my hands the book that I have done with Blurb (hopefully leading to another publication later on) with my “Lords of the Ring” work. I hope to show it to you at Look3 but I was looking at this with some positive feeling of accomplishment (I hope you do like it…) and there is absolutely no way that this work would have ever taken place if it was not for you and the challenge you had set many of us to tell stories, give ourselves the dream assignment that we would have liked to be given… Because of all this and more, I will continue to support BURN in the best way that I can and sometimes contribute with my own work. Somehow, I have been less present than I would like on BURN and far less that on Road Trips…maybe for the reasons that Sydney shares above. I maybe have been missing the more lighthearted and casual nature of Road Trips but I think that the most likely reason is that my crazy hectic life of the past months has made it more difficult and somehow felt less in touch. I hope that as I settle back in Europe, I will have more ability to stay close and participate. My obsession lately has been to find another project to get my teeth into. In any case David, I am sure you must be proud to see what BURN has become and I think this is just a beginning. I think that we should be calling you Merlin with Anton being the magic wand that supports you… the two of you create magic :):):)
I can’t wait to see the great essays that you must have selected this year and I look forward to see this combo of Legend and emerging photographers in action very soon.
Cheers,
Eric
hang in there D Harvey. sounds, hope your the De Niro of still film.
SIDNEY…
i absolutely do not want to create stage fright at all….the loose ramble always welcomed….however, the looseness of Road Trips was in a 180 degree out different environment than this..
BURN publishes the work of many readers and may finance the work of some…
Road Trips did not publish any work from readers …a very significant distinction that many forget…RT may have given me more time to chit chat with readers while BURN is a major editing vocation…and remember also Sidney, at any given time i am behind the scenes on Skype with no less than 5 readers working on their essays…..however, i still jump in here quite a bit…but, mostly i am interested in what you all have to say to each other…
the Dialogue section (right here) gets pretty loose , on any topic, and can certainly always be our “bulletin board”…
in any case Sidney you have a voice….i listen…we all listen….i try to respond when possible and when appropriate as now….
as i have said to you from day one…thanks for being here….
ERIC…
when i first met you and your father in Sicily, i knew you were quite an unusual case….your work was professional in nature, even though you hold down a full time career having nothing to do with photography and also have a more than full time job as dad and husband….your development has been astounding….and your enthusiasm catching for all around you….i am ready to work with you on your next project…but, let’s completely finish Lords first…make sense???
WENDY….
you must just simply light up everyone around you…i never have seen you not smiling….such a flower child!!!! love it…
PETER…
that is what i want you to be…..
GRACIE….
sting like a bee too??? hmmmm…..back where we started..yup….i like circles….
cheers, david
yikes…
*humbled*
hmmm…
thought you left me out… good catch… edit..
cut and paste… like my friend used to say…
me a worker bee. i die after i sting. so i save it.
;)
(more energy now that youre not such a poor boy)
Mr. Sidney Atkins,
You have the gift of the Articulate writing !!!!
I am the ‘the usual suspect’of the rather circumscribed group …and I’m HOPING the posting of the EPF finalists will spark dialogue from a much wider range of commenters. THANK YOU!
It’s only Rock’n’Roll and we love it…
“well, you have saved BURN for another month or so…”
BURNIANS AND CIVILIANS…for just another month?
…UNIVERSE we can DO better …FOCUS and DONATE !!!
“think before you write and write exactly as you think…”
I PROMISE that I will try as long as I breath here in BURN to think before I write and to be responsible
…I pledge …No more LA bomba’s from my side :(
TO OUR FUTURE SPONSORS,
We know that you are out there…
We understand how hard is to trust … Modern Times …yeap…
“Never TRUST the man who tells you all his troubles but keeps from you all his joys.”
Jewish proverb
BUT wait a minute… you can trust BURN …yes…
Cause here at BURN we are telling all our troubles and we are sharing ALL of our JOYS !!!
VIVA SPONSORS !!! Whiskey on me!!!
P.S trust ME… “Beyond Here Lies Nothing”
i think the biggest difference between road trips and here is that there is always work being discussed.. always new work to look at.. and that´s made this a place to visit way beyond the reasons on road trips – which was a place to talk about photography, and where the mentored photographers showed work.
what i have loved about burn is seeing some of the same people find voice for talking about specific work of others – people who they do not know.. myself included – i was never that comfortable to crit work on roadtrips..
sidney – well said.. however when i joined in on road trips it was iin part easier because of the regulars – i could see what the place was about and tuck in.. i know it is different here, but the ramblings and mumblings which are aside from photography also serve to make the place less scary i think..
in terms of the postings you´re right sidney – whats written here stays here unless deleted.. so all, myself included, need to be conscious of that. keeping the comments of the ´positive crit´ kind will encourage people to submit work..
david ah
brilliant that the plans are coming together for the commissioning wing of burn.. very exciting step not only for burn – but in terms of web-magazines in general.
many i have worked for see advertising money as easy and for keeps, and ask frequently for free work or (as with one client) ´behind the scenes´, photos for free web use while i have been working on a fee basis for the print magazine.
i know it is a trend beginning to change, and it´s about time.. it is great that burn will be showing some other sites, who are much more capable of paying, how web publishing needs to move forward.
regarding difference of opinion on here – if it´s about photography that´s brilliant.. if it is not then i would say to people – just back out of it.. use emails.. or just move on quickly.. there has to be a trend for less personal postings on here.
the commenting people here are not the majority.. and it´s great to see burn developing along lines for the silent majority, who just love looking and thinking about photography.
okay.. chasing accountants day :ø/
yesterday was a blast.. full-on family day out.
some snaps.. beate and tor capa therein
http://bophoto.co.uk/blog/blog.htm
cheers
david
Fantastic,
I hope that Burn burns it up. Ofcourse theres buzz, theres also buzz on the internet, Burn is regularly mentioned on different blogs. Burn should be buzzing because its fresh, varied and interesting. Its also so busy its difficult to keep up with for those of us whose free time has suddenly evaporated. Can’t wait for the EPF finalists to finally be shown. Very exciting stuff, David.
EDITING PART 14 – the joy of a harvey wallbanger.
the latest installment of editing for my book – the behind-the-scenes work of burn magazine – is on my blog.
with gracious thanks david.. i was unsure we would cover much ground today.. great conversation and thoughts from you which will help me to blend the work.. legs wobbly, sweat is pouring, mouth is dry, but I CAN SEE THE FINISH-LINE :ø)
http://bophoto.co.uk/blog/blog.htm through my website or…
…………. http://bophoto-mumblings.blogspot.com/2009/05/joy-of-harvey-wallbanger-editing-pt-iv.html to see the post on it´s own, (if you have slow connection).
Merci beaucoup monsieur Eric….
I second your thoughts…..!!!!
brilliantbrilliantbrilliant!
I have been seeing and hearing a lot of buzz and humm and crackle about burn around new york… almost every photographer I talk to knows about it, and if they don’t they certainly do after they meet me.
i look at burn just about every day. I sometimes check it before my e-mail. I’m addicted to the rush of burn, and you keep making it sweeter david. You have me for whatever you need in the city!
Don’t forget to keep me in mind on your next burn meeting in NYC.
“I am an ant,
and we are ants,
some of us fly
most of us walk;
we march in unison
to the beat
of our own
drum-a-dumdums.”
ALL…
I had the pleasure of talking with DAH earlier today about the Burn gallery and he asked me to pass along the following…
a) First of all, it is going to happen…real soon…!
b) At the moment he is swamped with the preparations for Look3 and of course publishing the EPF finalists, so the actual process of selecting which pictures will be included in the first show and all the practical issues that come with putting together an exhibition will start in the middle of June.
c) Those of you who shoot digital could make use of the high end printer that DAH has and save both on shipping (especially so if you’re living outside the States) and on transit time for your prints to get to the gallery. The rest of us who still shoot film will have to send in our silver prints by mail to and address that David will give in time. His personal preference is in tubes but flat shipping is ok too…
d) Since the wall space is somewhat limited (this is not news for those of you who’ve been there) ideas on how to display more than a couple dozen 16×20”s at a time will allow for more people to participate. Also, ideas on promotion… a catalog… online galleries/sells… projections…
Brainstorm…
e) One of the main objectives is to actually sell some prints to help both Burn and the photographers involved so, we are all encouraged to choose a couple of pictures for consideration that we think (or “know” from previous experience) that have the best chance to do just that…sell.
f) On the issue of money—and even though I’m really NOT a wealthy guy… I tried to explain that for me (and possibly for some of you) helping Burn in its first steps and the “cred” of participating in the gallery would be payment enough but David would not have any of it. He is a “what is fair is fair” kind of guy… (by the way, have you ever heard of the gallerist who was offered 100% commission by the artist and said “no, 50-50 is better”???)
Finally a personal note:
I have never attended a workshop of David’s, or even met the man in person, and he still gave me the time of his day… he is the real deal, and this place has the potential to become… well… whatever we collectively set out to make it… support Burn…
Peace…
DAVID B
“Wasted” as the title for your book? YES!!!! Having been to my share of EM scenes, I’d say that pretty well captures the general ambience. And thanks so much for posting the link to your blog entry. I am fascinated by the process you and David are going through. It’s not long now, my friend. You’re in the home stretch…
hugs
Patricia
P.S. Tor is ADORABLE!!!
BURNIANS
We are really on a roll here, and who do we have to thank for that? David Alan Harvey. This man is busting his butt to give us more opportunities than we emerging photographers could ever have imagined possible. I mean, how many of you ever dreamed you might have prints hanging in a NYC gallery? And a gallery that is already the talk of the town before it’s even been totally cleaned up from the previous tenant!
Virtual? Hell, there’s nothing virtual about this community. David has moved the internet from an ether-bound entity into something so real you can pinch it. Speaking of which, I keep pinching myself these days to see if I’m dreaming that I’ve somehow ended up here on Burn, ended up with ten months of my work printed in a Blurb book ready to show a publisher, ended up being mentored by one of today’s iconic photographers, ended up feeling so close to photographers from around the world. I’m sure I’m not the only one who thanks my lucky stars that somehow I found my way first to Road Trips and now to Burn.
So, whatever we can do to help Burn generate even MORE of a buzz, let’s do it! Donate what you can in terms of funds, take an active part in the discussions but think long and hard before posting anything that could be construed as mean-spirited, submit your work for publication, encourage your photographer friends & colleagues to do the same, volunteer your time if at all possible to help get our gallery up and running, and just keep shooting shooting shooting. After all, words and ideas are good, but for a photographer there’s nothing like DOING IT to keep the creative juices flowing.
I am SO grateful to be part of this community. And David, you are THE BEST!!!
love
Patricia
Pat…
i’ll second that
:))))))))))))
THODORIS – thank you for helping get the gallery up and going. i think it is going to be exciting. i already know of a few pieces i want hanging in my house.
BUZZ – yes, there was a buzz at NYPF. I met a guy who NEVER comments on Burn, but does read (occasionally) and donated money the first day. i thought that was very cool.
LOOK3 – i hope many of you will be able to attend this year. it is going to be EXCITING! please let me know if you have any questions about tickets, hotels, etc…. happy to help!!
Perhaps some of you have seen this, but if not, heres More buzz about burn:
http://photojojo.com/content/guides/10-online-photography-magazines/
let the bee alliteration bounce before the burnians… buzzzz
ANTON – i like the “donation” link – instead of “support burn”. the new one is less prominent. just my opinion…
VASILIOS – cool link. thanks for sharing.
I wonder how come we dont have Tanzanian albinos here. Well, I would wonder, but I managed to score a week’s vacation and I am not going to think about this until next Tuesday.
In any case, I had to go to a wake and funeral this past week; one of our former neighbors passed away and I had to represent the family. This was fine with me; funeral homes are pretty fascinating places, all in all, though you might not think so if you worked in one. That’s a pity, really, a case of familiarity breeding contempt, if you will—the sheer economic wonder of the place just eludes you. Here is a commercial enterprise that does a thriving business every year despite the fact that almost all of its potential customers don’t want to have anything to do with it and would just as soon never have to use its services at all. You’d have to work in the public schools to find something equally unpopular, and public education only works because the government requires the kids to show up. Funeral homes just have to wait for the customers to drop in, to the financial discomfort of the life insurance industry, a business that prefers to have people insure themselves against the inevitable, which is profitable, rather than the inevitable actually occurring, which is not.
Unless, of course, you own a funeral home, where the inevitable brings in money hand over fist. When you own your own funeral home, for example, people will come to you and buy big ticket items that wouldn’t dream of buying otherwise and these same customers will take your word about these items and what they will do or not do, as the case may be. If every business in the country could get away with this, the number of lawsuits filed each year in the United States would drop faster than Sister Mary Frances’ jaw at a strip club. The sheer audacity of some of these claims and the fact that anyone can make them with a perfectly straight face is nothing short of positively breathtaking.
For example, if you go to your average American funeral home, someone on staff will be more than happy to sell you a coffin that is absolutely, positively, no two ways about it guaranteed not to leak for five hundred years. Think about that for a second. How do you check that claim? Can you go to your local public library and check the Consumer Reports for May 1506 and take a look at the product rating they gave this particular line of caskets before you go running home to tell your assembled loved ones that your Uncle Harry can now go for half a millennium without worrying about getting his feet wet? Will the manufacturer refund your money if some water manages to get into the thing in 2247? Are all the parts and all the workmanship under warranty for all of that time, or will the guarantee lapse after, say, three hundred years? Then, of course, why would Uncle Harry worry about getting a leaky coffin in the first place, since he has finally arrived at that happy point in his terrestrial existence when he doesn’t really have to worry about whether or not he’s going to catch a cold.
Following the purchase of the coffin, which is expensive enough, considering only one person gets to use the thing, there is the question of where do you put it once you’ve got Uncle Harry in it. This might seem an easy decision to make, but you would be incorrect in your assumption. Whether you like it or not, you can’t bury Uncle Harry out in the back yard next to your dog that got run over when you were six years old. No indeed, Uncle Harry has to go to the cemetery, and to go to the cemetery you must have a plot, and buying a cemetery plot is as full of twists and turns, shifts and bad faith as any other real estate deal.
First, location, location, location; no matter what anyone says about just dump me anywhere, the fact is everyone wants a tomb with a view, even if Uncle Harry won’t be able to see it, what with his watertight coffin in the way. People fight over getting a prime site in the cemetery are willing to shell out big bucks to get what they want, even if they have to sublet to a family of illegal aliens and a troupe of street mimes in order to pay the maintenance charges, and all this for a place too small to hang your hat, assuming Uncle Harry really needs a hat for the next five hundred years. Hats would seem purely optional at this point, I think; it’s really a question of personal preference.
In any case, you will, at the end of this long and drawn out process, be the proud owner of a plot of land too small to qualify as an apartment in Manhattan, and you will own said plot in perpetuity. This statement is a bit of a howler, I think, and is right up there with the coffin not leaking for five hundred years in audacity, because by the time perpetuity comes around to ask you for a loan or whether or not she can go to the senior prom with that way cool Hell’s Angel from Martian Colony #9 you will be in no condition to check out what perpetuity has to say about your owning the land. I imagine old Khufu thought he had a lock on all he surveyed at Giza, courtesy of his building the Great Pyramid, breaking the Pyramid Workers Union, and his casual dismissal of OSHA regulations. No sooner was he dead than every other Pharaoh decided he just had to have a pyramid in the same neighborhood and the damn things kept popping up around old Khufu like geometric mushrooms. Ramses II was another big shot who bought the line about owning his plot forever, and where is he now? It’s just as dead as he is, or maybe even deader, since Ramses has a good civil service job these days as an exhibit in the Cairo Museum. I think there’s a garage over the spot where they buried him the first time, but I could be wrong about that.
It’s not likely that Uncle Harry would get a gig as good as Ramses got, although when you think about it, this is a big comedown for Ramses, steady as the job is. One day you’re the leader of the most powerful nation on earth, and all of sudden it’s three thousand years later and you’re stuck in a glass box with all of your relatives nearby and snot nosed little kids who don’t want to be there in the museum in the first place are staring at you through the glass and going, EEEEWWWWWW, that’s gross! (Or the Arabic equivalent thereof). That probably won’t happen for Uncle Harry. Three thousand years on he’ll be in a museum somewhere, stuffed in a drawer somewhere along with a lot of fifth century American Indians and whatever the archaeologist could find of your grandmother as well. So much for all the money you spent for perpetuity; all you really got for the money was some space in the drawer next to the janitor’s lunch. That’s something to look forward to, isn’t it?
That’s to keep everyone amused until I return. Have a good one, guys.
Akaky, I have always wished, but perhaps never so much as I do now, to simply be fed to the worms.
EPF, LOOK and Gallery … one, two, three … things certainly are on fire.
Hmmm, since the gallery will be a series of weekend events as I understand it … do the prints really have to hang JUST inside the gallery itself during the show? There are two doors, and a big hall, if the neighbors were okay with it. And … not everyone attending will be able to afford to take home a print, so what could they afford as a consolation, what piece of this little historical event could they take with them for a nominal price to help support Burn and the Burn stash? (I mean besides a camera bag … although not a bad idea … the DAH bag auction and gallery opening. I think I’m joking.) Perhaps those were logs for the fire.
A little more buzz was provided by The New York Times’ recently launched photojournalism blog “Lens.” Burn is listed on its blogroll, along with Pete Marovich’s 37th Frame. They’re among good company. The Times linked to Magnum, National Geographic and the Aperture Foundation as well.
Here’s the link: http://lens.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/05/15/good-morning/?scp=1&sq=lens&st=cse.
BURN is my ‘HOME’ of photography.
I have never seen any mentors and any places like David Alan Harvey and Burn.
He has devoted all his efforts and times for emerging photographers and photography.
I know that it is very easy to say something but it is very hard to do something.
We all emerging photographers have some dreams of our own.
He is the ONLY man who has made it to come true.
I really really THANKS to David Alan Harvey and Burn as a photographer!
p.s.) Panos, Congratulations on your exhibition!
I really want to see your prints of works. :)))
Hope you to have great success of photography!
Best wishes,
BURN is my ‘HOME’ of photography.
I have never seen any mentors and any places like David Alan Harvey and Burn.
He has devoted all his efforts and times for emerging photographers and photography.
I know that it is very easy to say something but it is very hard to do something.
We all emerging photographers have some dreams of our own.
He is the ONLY man who has made it to come true.
I really really THANKS to David Alan Harvey and Burn as a photographer!
p.s.) Panos, Congratulations on your exhibition!
I really want to see your prints of works. :)))
Hope you to have great success of photography!
Best wishes,
AKAKY said,
“That’s something to look forward to, isn’t it?”
PANOS said,
“i’ll second that
:))))))))))))”
P.S Akaky wanna be my neighbor ?
BURN IS BURNING
FIRE is fire
wanna kiss your Cambo WDS
oime your Digaron – S
:))))))))))))))))))))
Dearest BURN magazine,
My Civilians fiends have problem with the Support Button
HIGHLIGHTED …it needs to be HIGHLIGHTED…cannot see…
ATTENTION,ATTENTION
Dear Sean,
I imagine that Everything has been disappearing in the yellow sands… Very imaginary and symbolizing photo…
I’m very proud of you as an EPF recipient .
You are doing well.
I ‘m looking forward to your book and projct. :)))
Best wishes,
Kyunghee
P.s.)I couldn’t upload this comment at the ‘Seleected photographes’.(Sean’s Photo)
I don’t know the problem of web.
So I uploaded this here.
thanks patricia :ø)
yes.. wasted.. slept on it – it may come accross a little negative and i´m still open to ideas, although i love it.
tor capa has his own blog now.. just getting a couple of good posts online and will email you the link :ø)
x
Davidb,
thank you for the link …we can see MR.HARVEY in action !!!!
http://bophoto-mumblings.blogspot.com/2009/05/joy-of-harvey-wallbanger-editing-pt-iv.html
with all my respect…he looks that he just came back from a safari or something…
Africa…Australia…who knows?
I thought that the hunting period is over…no?
It’s just the sparkle in his left eye… my humble opinion…
Db you should have put the warning button before …posting the above link
FOCUS, my man and keep baby Tor, far away for a while…
( to be perceived as a joke) I feel dizzy when I sit for long at the back of the bus…
ONE DOWN …NINE TO GO…hunting period is NOT over !!!!!!!!!!!
WHAT not to LOVE ?
Kyunghee Lee,
Where have you been? Welcome back and YES
MR. SEAN is the first BURNIAN to be “burned”. We are so prou of him !!!
Let’s see how gracefully he will pass the “torch” to our new EPF this year !!!
OIME, I LOVE YOU ALL !
Civilian when are you going to come on a pig hunt, Mick from Bullamakenka would love to fill you with a few bundies and chuck you in the back of the Toyota and chase the ferals
Love you Imants…I am a fan :)
That’s why Mr.Harvey is still waiting for your to edit…
Now we ALL know what the heik you are doing…:)
OIME, MR.HARVEY !!! Do NOT try to SKYPE IMANTS…nope
No burb book, no finalist…FOCUS,FOCUS IMANT …let the pigs alone…
SHOOT …you took that literally, don’t u :))
P.S in the BACK …again…do I look like a CIVILIAN ?
…oups, I am a Civilian…WTF or no?
Civil one my stuff is sent in…….you will love Mick’s Raelene he’s tops and makes a mean pavlova
Imant
I’ll second that
:))))))))))))
What NOT to LOVE !!!
VIVA ! I am in love…again…pavlova with ouzo or no?
***PAVLOVA
***Pavlova is a meringue dessert named after the Russian ballet dancer Ánna Pávlova.
The pavlova a meringue dessert [5]. It is prepared as a cake of meringue which has a crispy crust and is soft and light meringue inside.
The dessert is believed to have been created to honour the dancer during or after one of her tours to Australia and New Zealand …
The dessert is a popular dish and an important part of the national cuisine of both countries…
ONE DOWN 999 to GO…
SPONSORS… PAVLOVA on IMANTS !!!
OR IMANTS ON PAVLOVA… I am bad …today …Enough
Focus Civilian, FOCUS !!
P.S Trauma center OPEN 24/7
CIVILIAN…
sorry, but i was not growing a beard on purpose…i just was in a mode of personal appearance neglect…i just had not taken time to shave for the last few days….
the HUNT is never over…..that is my problem….
cheers, david
MR.HARVEY ,
The trauma center is on aisle 2 ” on the roll” .
Personal appearance neglect, depression, feeling of emptiness, envy, anger…
Please, proceed to the correct aisle…
FOCUS, Focus…damnit
that is your problem…:))
The commissions idea is so on spot and terribly generous at the same time..it is jut right. Dispatches is doing a good thing with this too, but they so far have stuck to the more known names as far as I can see…but commissioning any new quality work is a good idea in my book,,,
VIVA ERICA !!!!
Did you submit? Are we waiting for a book?
P.S how was the coffee with the girls…you know…NY style?
’twas dinner and slideshow with Gina and Kerry, and ’twas grand..thanks for asking..as i said to Kerry (cause I already knew Gina) I wasn’t going to make any kind of effort to make sure we get to know each other fast over the first meet, as I always knew that she is lovely and good and that we are already sisters..
indeed am working on a book dummy, still shooting for it tho..something in making the book helps to see what is needed. I did contribute, i never submit :)
(blush) Erica, sweet!
burn is indeed unique in that friendships develop long before real meetings ever take place, only to grow after they do… AND we get to learn a boatload about photography in the process!
Hope to meet many more of you at Look3!
Now CIV, I am 100% true-blue Aussie, and all this talk of pavlova is making me yearn for a slice…
Pavlova, meat pies w/peas, bbq and beer. The true flavors of Australia.
Panos, congratulations!
Congrats to all the EPF finalists – can’t wait to see your work as it is revealed!
A beautiful day in New York!!! Life is good!
Kerry..:)))))
Thank you…!!!
Congratulations to ALL that
decided to photograph the world..
Today and any day..
Let’s pick up the camera and go out and shoot..
Shoot, shoot, shoot y’all and…
good light…:)
ALL….one more thing….
HAIK & JARED IORIO….
put a little slideshow in order from Friday-show night..
click below:
http://conversesrouges.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/panos-exhibit/index.html
Akaky, thanks; enjoy your vacation.
Panos, congratulations on the exhibition!
Mike.
ALL
LANCE has gone public :) with Thirst!
http://www.npr.org/blogs/pictureshow/2009/05/thirst_for_grit.html
Right on,
Lance!!!
and congrats to you too, panos..
DAVID – did you get my email. is the design cool with you???
thank you Erica…
:)
Gina,
:) .. i heard u had fun in N.Y..!
PANOS – i did. saw lots of old friends, met many new ones… had a lovely dinner with erica and kerry. saw anna-maria (berry-jester) and kelly-lynn james. bought 8 new photo books and enjoyed the new york photo festival. will we be seeing you at LOOK???
Gina…
girls night out … i see… girl power…
cool……
As far as Look3???
I have the same question….no idea!!!!
hotel reservations, air fare… tickets…mucho cost…
i need to borrow the “donation button” for a week or two..:))))
hmmmmmm….pale…..i see clouds….
Just looking at the NYT’s new photo blog, “Lens.” Kinda hard to navigate. Lots of images. Drowning in images. Too many images. Books are better than the web. Something concrete. Something real.
But the web is the future of photography. .
PANOS, HAIK & JARED
Love love LOVE the slideshow of Friday’s opening!!! Almost as good as being there…well, not quite. But it looks like a totally cool scene and Panos, your work was displayed in a way that felt VERY authentic and suited you & your subjects. Way to go!!!
hugs
Patricia
Jim,
the web is like the “telephone” or the “tv”…or the “ipod” or the “radio” or a “newspaper”
just a form of communication… nothing more…
definitely NOT the future of photography or anything…
maybe You or Patricia or one of the finalists…here…could be the future
but… only … only if we keep on shooting….
the next “great” picture and the “next” great essay ( and the mind behind it )
could be the future of photography… but definitely not the web…
Patricia…
i wanna thank Haik and Jared once again for the slideshow and not only….
they set up the whole show…They both put ridiculous amounts of personal
work and MONEY for that one night….
thank you again
Fun slideshow. Looks like it was a good time. Congrats Panos!
Looks like I’m wearing “your” T-Shirt Charles..
:))))
Thanks again…
PANOS HAIK JARED
thanks for the slide show..
congrats Panos…
where were the go go dancers?
viva venice!!!!
PANOS,
You starving Venice free spirit big mouth big hard truth teller Greek lost boy…
you made Civilians so PROUD …
HAIK,
if I wish for ONE wish, I will WISH for a FRIEND like you…
JARED,
you have been picked as the SEXIEST “photolooking” in the block…
Civilians voted again…
P.S Panos you are tall…why did you put so many photos on the floor…??
Weird,it feels like VENICE !!!!!!!!!!
and who is the BEAUTIFUL GIRL…DID i miss something? Freida was there with the pink…but the little fireball over there???…Please SUPPORT with TEXT…!!
BURN GIRLS YOU ROCK !!!!!!!!!
MAYBE YOU CAN MAKE A book and talk about it…?!!?
Maybe a coffee Book …?
P.S I love Aussies…HIGH ENERGY…I gave up…I am just a siesta civilian
If I only wish for one wish ,I wish I was there…
Fuck yeah Panos! You know, that particular image, when Katrina struck I was sitting in Seattle feeling helpless and then I decided to do a limited edition of that image. If somebody donated $200 or more to the charity of their choice and sent me the receipt they got an 11X14 fiber print (in an edition of 85). The edition went in a couple of days and a lot of people were inspired to donate more than that. I think in the end it was more than $22,000. I probably could have done a lot more, but man, printing, and packaging 85 was about my limit.
So I think of that whenever I see that picture.
When are you back in Seatown? We just bought a big new/old (1909) house that well be moving into probably end of June. You’re always welcome.
CP
Charles Peterson,
All our Love to the other BURN baby !!
FELIX we love YOU !!!
OIME,
I just got this … 1909 …Fixer upper…I was born 1909 …GOOD LUCK , my man !!!
hi katie-cakes,
just checked yer latest comment.
wtf! (where’s the fire? is that what it means?)
how are you dear? things letting up a bit?
very interesting this burn magazine.
is this magazine about the greats trying think about technic
blah – blah – blah
or can any of us just watch from an UNcalibrated machine
sipping on peach mango tea, rocking from a torn up chair
and taking it easy, looking at nice little pictures
of nice little people reminding us of memories
of how good life was when we were little people ourselves?
sometimes i feel the more you know about the how tos
and the why tos, we get lost in the maze of knowing
— and if that is how it’s going to be
i am pretty happy not knowing… and just knowing where the shutter is
Glad to see the “Venice” opening slideshow, Panos, and Jared and Haik. Looks like it was a funky, no fuss, fun evening, too bad we can’t put names on the few Burnian faces present.
PS: Whose 12 string acoustic was that, Panos?
Civilian..
i want to eat a piece of Pavlova! mmmm..good!
Panos:
“definitely NOT the future of photography or anything…
maybe You or Patricia or one of the finalists…here…could be the future
but… only … only if we keep on shooting….
the next “great” picture and the “next” great essay ( and the mind behind it )
could be the future of photography… but definitely not the web…”
RIGHT ON, PANOS!
Gracie
hi!
zzzzzzzzzzz
hahaha, Gracie..i posted mine and you were posting yours! WTF? here’s the fire? huh?? don’t get it..am tired but, huh? I didn’t write WTF!..not this time, another time yeah but not this time..and um, WTF means What The F**k..
oime.
me will never use WTF.
(ESL – second language. WTH!)
GRACIE
“…is this magazine about the greats trying think about technic
blah – blah – blah
or can any of us just watch from an UNcalibrated machine
sipping on peach mango tea, rocking from a torn up chair
and taking it easy, looking at nice little pictures
of nice little people reminding us of memories
of how good life was when we were little people ourselves?
sometimes i feel the more you know about the how tos
and the why tos, we get lost in the maze of knowing
– and if that is how it’s going to be
i am pretty happy not knowing… and just knowing where the shutter is”
Gracie, believe it or not you REALLY nailed what the issues were for me when i looked at that essay. Flash and dazzle technique or a captivating alternative reality that we can imagine just for a minute being a part of..an escape from the humdrum adult world and just slipping away to some delta island on the other end of the world? Love what you said. You simply nailed it right to the wall. In your usual elegantly sweet way.
love ya honeychild
kat~
Gracie
hahaha, i KNEW it wasn’t an acronym you’d EVER get close to! i know you!!!
kat
WTF means WE are THE FIRE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
WE THE FIRE !!!!!!!!! WTF
LOVEEEEEEEEEEEEE YOU MY GRACIE ,our muse
LOVEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE YOU KATIE, the street fighter
YOU ROCK MY TWO
WTF LOVE YOU SO MUCH…
P.S DON’T ever ever mix pavlova and ouzo…EVERRRRRRRR
Buzzing like I am in VENICE… Amore mio…nanannanann !!!!!!!
Blink I will be late.
ANTON ,
Anton Save All Photographers A.S.A.P
ASAP :)))))
DAH = Do As Harvey or Dance As Harvey…
Come on help me out BURNIANS… !!!
Civilian
okokok//pavlova and expresso instead..do you have a headache? Are you bouncing off the walls? easy now, Civilian, i don’t want you smacking your beautiful head against a wall..
WTF
where’s the fire..hahaha.GRACIE, that was funny!!!
kat
Good night you bunch of chemical smelling, pixel loving philosophers. Been MIA for a while…swine flu, house changing and new horizons. Look forward to catching-up.
Jan
Civilian –
Me? Picked? Am I a finalist!!!?!?? Haha.
Panos –
A pleasure, man. Great to see your stuff up on a wall. Had a blast.
JARED !!!
YES, I had nothing to do with the result… I was born 1909…
but you are HOT according to Civilian records…Finalist in our records :)
PANOS !!!
YOU Magnetic wall !!!
JAN !!!
We were calling your name…Welcome back…C’EST TOUT…oime, dyslexic friends be ready!
KATIE !!!
24 hours …are you ready ???
BOB !!!
where is the birthday photos…I am waiting…THE ONLY ONE BOB BLACK !!!
DID I TELL YOU ???
WTF
I LOVE YOU ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
Civilian
You are the darlingest person to remember…i am COUNTING THE HOURS…down,,down down till i hold her in my arms..for like one second and then she’ll be off to see her friends. But i will be happy knowing she’s back in her own country, her own house, her own room. Thank you, thank you for remembering!
JAN!!!!
YOU ARE BACK YOU DIRTY DOG!!! where the hell have you been? You come back here all muddy and wet and your fur smelling like you rolled in something dead, now get in here and don’t think about escaping again, hear me?! Here, here’s a dog biscuit..so glad you’re back!
muchos hugs
kathie
Civilian…
spppfffft:
Continental 1796 from Newark
Arrives 8:25 PM
can’t wait!!
love
julie
:))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
GOOD ENERGY
EVERYONE we have BURNIANS on the airplanes …
P.S ok, please, can you put her on BURN when she will settle in…I wanna see her…
go ZZZZZ…i want you to look fresh…and grandma too…give her her pills :)))
I WANT NEW BLOOD !!!!!!!!!!
I KNOW YOU ARE OUT THERE …COME ON…
Look at me …I am just a Civilian… I want NEW blood…JOIN BURN …WTF
oime
LANCE …CONGRATULATIONS !!!!
THIRSTY for NEW BLOOD :))) You rock, my man
bob – HAPPY BRUFDEEE.. have a great year / decade / and all..
lance – yesyes..
panos – great description of the web.. really like what you did with the exhibition.. the big prints looked great..
haik n jared – great snaps.. nicely done..
all – grow a beard by mistake.. it is the way forward
:ø)=
had not listened to the soul kitchen for years…
LANCE
Big congrats, man! NPR is big time and the edit looks great. Can’t wait for the book. See you in C’ville in a few weeks ;=)
Patricia
Civilian
It´s the 21st in the evening so i still have another night for zzzz´s ..i will figure out a way to show you her pic…hmm..probably on Converses, k?
love
kathie
KATIE,
loving ZZZZZ
on me!!!
MR.HARVEY,
THANK YOU, THANK YOU with your recent posting:
“…CIVILIAN is that he NEVER loses his cool no matter what is coming at him…i have never had a blogger as an actual role model, but CIVILIAN in this regard surely should be for all of us…i think it turns out that his background as a community organizer is the perfect background …”
You didn’t have to go all this way…Thanks anyway!
MR.POWERS,
Will you accept my KEY for your GREEK house.
I have proposed to you before but I want you to know that :
I LOVE YOU !!!!!!!!!!!
P.S BURN Magazine, I know you are extra busy BUT if we rub PLATO the wrong way ,can we have a refund?
No need for immediate response !!!
VIVA, VIVA, VIVA, VIVA, VIVA, VIVA
beer on Jim cause he got a refund ( To be perceived as a joke)
NOW BACK to our regular Programming …
Am I a FINALIST ?
Civilian,
have you ever tried 二锅头 ( instead of Ouzo) ? Just asking.
KATHARINA ,
Focus, focus …I am a Civilian …I have tried lots of stuff.
WHITE LIQUOR indeed = 二锅头
Are u A finalist?
ha ha… have you ever tried ???
KATHARINA,
Just a few sips of that double-distilled erguotou rotgut and I am seeing “red stars” everywhere!
HA,HA…Let’s laugh like MR. DAH!
HAVE you ever tried?
Sidney…right :)
I was just asking after all….BTW: It’s a great pleasure to see your thoughtful posts here !
erguotou rotgut on SIDNEY !!
What if we did a fundraiser using iGavel? something like this..
http://auction.igavel.com/ClientInfo.taf?_function=info&id=3049&skip=1
Thaddeus
just wanted to say thanks for the mention of me as a note worthy photographer shooting portraits. Was having sort of an unfortunate morning, and reading that warmed my heart, it was very sweet of you, really. The amount of hours that I spend working on things alone is a bit against my nature and makes it a challenge for me to keep on at full speed always, and in a way that I don’t fully understand it does help to hear that the work does make an impact. The comedic thing is that of late it has become a little bit of a pet peeve of mine to be thought of only as a portrait photographer..I completely understand why I am but in my heart I am just “a photographer”. Hopefully the new project that will be up here on burn at some point will help to illustrate that..but my point is, being called a note worthy portrait photog by you was quite touching.
Dear Erica,
It was my pleasure. I’ve visited your website many times and still find that body of work truly inspiring. I’m really looking forward to seeing your new project here on Burn. Enjoy the rest of your day.
Thaddeus.
DAH –
Email in your inbox – jarediorio [at] gmail [dot] com
BEAUTIFUL NIGHT in EUROPE!!!
THANK YOU all from my CIVILIAN heart …
it seems you came a long way…
even with all my efforts via (ouzo, beer, whiskey…)
you are very “strong” and “civilized”
I am PROUD…
and I see new BLOOD, new BURNIANS coming…
Don’t be afraid…BURN is the place to be…!!!!!!!!!!
THANK YOU BURN
I will be back…Don’t blink
CIVILIAN…
better apply for a refund before i buy a one way ticket to Fiji…..
OK, BURNIANS blink !!!
Fiji … then Fiji we go !!!
Shall I stop calling the Universe for new “blood”?
Breath, just breath, close your eyes and there you are…
why not Greece ? Anyway…Fiji is ok with me.
You are always welcome here …but for your “state” you have to proceed to aisle 2
TRAUMA CENTER :))
P.S When is the next payment, do we have the option for monthly automated withdrawals…
You are doing fine my man…just take your vitamins, don’t forget to drink WATER,and wash your hands.
AVOID dancing and kissing …weird “bugs” around…
NO REFUNDS FOR CIVILIANS.
no need to reply…FOCUS,my man
FOCUS
FOCUS on YOURSELF this time!
LOVE YOU ALLLLL
OUT of battery t
Civilian
Hey! Katharina has come to Buzz…She knocked on your door and paid you a smile..(spfffttt…i think she deserves a key but i don´t want to tell you what to do with your own little greek cottage) But let me tell you, Civi, she´s the real deal..
gotta go..more work!
kat-
Totally apropos of nothing..WTF is up with (some) teens in NYC? I just spent some time trying to “get in” to a group of boys so i could take a few photographs..it went almost okay on the whole maybe because I called them out on their intimidation tactics and switched the focus to their curiosity about girls, but man they were so foul mouthed and loud and rude and aggressive and from another planet than my teen planet. They were from what you’d assume to be the stereotyped demographic of low income troubled kids, but even if that is true they seem far more lost than I would have expected, it’s as if they have lost their humanity compass altogether. I’m half interested to keep trying and half to not..Short of bringing them to center focus and seriously investing in them and a long term relationship, not sure what would assuage them.
KATIA, I should ask, do you engage kids in these frames of mind? (nasty, disrespectful, aggressive?)
Erica – where in NYC – like right in manhattan or in one of the boroughs? How disrespectful where they? I imagine that it may not be communicable over burn, but I’d like to know as I try to deal with a lot of the youth culture in the Brooklyn area and, by the by, they are decent.
Vasilios..
yes Brooklyn..and I agree, I talk with/ photograph youth here often without issue. They were amped up as earlier there was a fight between two girls, and what seemed to be 100 kids were running through the streets to try to catch it…a lot of the kids lived in the Red Hook projects. Summer fever madness maybe..
“better apply for a refund before i buy a one way ticket to Fiji…..”
You might not get into Fiji now, after the army abolished the constitution and sacked all the judges… Journalists need a special visa, and if you say anything negative about the govt, you’re sent home!!! :-))
Come here to NZ instead, only heavy rain and snow storms to worry about today!!!!
HI ALL – I AM GOING TO POST THIS ON BOTH LINKS…
Anton helped me designs a “bumper sticker” to sell at LOOK3 this year….
What Happens at LOOK3
Stays at LOOK3…
(and ends up on Burn.)
Erica;
I’m shooting a youth project at the moment. Mind you my focus is totally different; it concentrates on kids just getting along with life, but getting stigmatised by the bad actions of a few.
The only problems I’ve had so far are with the “gangsta wannabees” who don’t, in general, take part in the indie music (rock, punk) scene I’m shooting at the moment. I can only think of two incidents of aggresiveness (towards me), and typically, outside on the street away from the indie music kids.
Even in our reasonably affluent small city there is a rising amount of really nasty unprovoked teen violence, but again it is perpetrated by a few. Kids getting jumped (& hospitalised) by 6-10 teens just for their mobile phones etc.
Actually the violence had me questioning my own project, but it firmed up my resolve in the end, because most kids aren’t doing that sort of stuff.
The major difference I’m seeing between now and when I was young (I’m 46) is that if there was a fight between two teenage men when i was young; it was settled right there and then. Now the loser often gets his retaliation with half a dozen of his mates later on in a carpark etc.
Also; kicking someone in the head etc when they were down didn’t happen often, whereas now it is a common occurence. Often by a group of people too. I feel sorry for kids having to worry about that sort of crap happenning; growing up is difficult enough…
Again, this is in a relatively affluent small city in a rural farming province…
Cheers;
Ross
Erica – I was recently in red hook… As commonplace as this is to say there are always bad seeds around. But sometimes flukes occur, pack mentalities develop and then ill behaviors manifest in peoples/group that normally wouldn’t. Summer madness is a good way to put it, and the adrenaline from a blood-y-nose-lust for youngsters can be overwhelming.
I’m done some work in the Bushwick area (i live in betwixt in east williamsburg) and there are definitely rougher spots than others… and of course bed-sty has a stigma all of its own.
I find it interesting to hear others experience in this area. I have yet to experience something too distasteful other than the colorful language that kids engage in to act like adults (and adults engage in to act like children)
Ross – the times have certainly changed from your view – and my own. I hate to say it because its so circumstantial, but it is less safe today than in the past; the culprit? . I think one of the most important thing for photographers delving into these issues is two-fold:
1) giving a non-threatening demeanor and 2) having an uncanny ability to disarm – and now’n’days more than ever.
GINA
and ends up on BuRN…
LOVE IT!!!!
xox
hi katiecakes
would you consider sharing
megadrippinsokolitsyrup pistachio ice cream
in the worlds-widest-waffle cone with me
a high point of your day?
civi,
focusing i am, dont think youre jerry springer.
but yeah as you say,
‘love and take care of each other’
erica–
no youth here has ever been nasty, disrespectful or aggressive with me.
honestly. it just doesn’t happen.
but my situation is different. i’ve been on the streets with them for four years now.
they all know me and respect me and when new kids come through they are introduced to me
immediately, told that i’m the street mom there and it’s understood that that title entails respect.
it excites me to think you are maybe, just maybe going to walk down my path a little..?
it would change your life. and theirs. irrevocably and brilliantly.
and..
personally, i cannot think of a single thing i’d rather see than street youth photos by erica mcdonald.
uffff….. i quiver to think of it…
:))
k.
Gracie
hahaha, yeah, like i could stick my entire face in a waffle cone right about now..and Erica talks about tough kids out on the street? street kids are a piece of cake compared to the low flying UFO´s that come at a person online..so heya, Gracie! wazzup? You got pistachio ice cream you´re giving away? Think i´ll just plunk myself down at your kitchen table and grab a spoon. Guess what? In 21 hours my baby comes home from Madrid!!! i´m so excited i can´t think straight..which should be obvious to anyone reading Burn tonight :))
how are you and your wee poets?
hugZ
kat
how are you and your wee poets?
zzzzzzzzzzz
dont we all forget (when we become fancy
and important, distinguished)
we still eat and breathe, laugh and love
and love to smile
tough kids need love from somewhere someone
tough jobs need breaks
hot heads, tired souls need green ice cream
Gracie our Muse..our lady in blond curls..
truer words have not passed my eyeballs in quite some time..i love pistachio ice cream..i love nuts. i love tough kids, i love being a mom..i love YOU!
what else matters?
AMOR!
bless your blessed family
kat-
Vasilios;
Yes demeanor helps, as does the gift of the gab!!! Also, if someone is under the influence be careful what you say. Even an innocuous statement can be taken the wrong way, as I found out a couple of weeks ago. The person really concerned really kicked off, pissed as a chook and pretty agro. After half an hour of talking, well mostly listening; he calmed down. But this was an isolated incident.
I have been shooting nearly every weekend since New Year’s Eve in this particular indie music bar and have only seen two potentially unfriendly moments, both caused by people who don’t usually go there.
After one punk night I had 6 people come up and thank me for taking photos down there and showing interest. They all said they get blamed for being a bit dodgy because they’re often covered in tats, piercings and wearing black. Yet it is one of the most accepting environments I’ve ever been in.
I think it makes a difference that I’m older too. When I was 18-ish anyone over 30 was ancient, so I often feel that they are surprised that I am interested in them. As one said to me “You never see the newspapers down here”
It’s now got to the stage when the kids come up to say goodbye when they leave. I’ve turned into the resident grandad I think!! :-))
Erica;
I also have a dozen or so printed project overviews in my camera bag that I give to anyone i talk to. It’s justan A4 piece of paper that describes the project and has a link to my photos. It’s amazing how one piece of paper does the rounds. Anyway it’s often too loud to discuss the project when the bands are playing.
Brooklyn, Venice, Miami, Costa Rica,Toronto, China,Paris,Athens…same stories,different names.
To My Erica,
Sometimes I have a feeling that I want to bunch some of their faces…YES,I the CIVILIAN
BUT at the same time I want to take those same faces and SQUEEZE them so hard from love and admiration!
What I want to say is MAYBE they “feel you” that you ARE NOT ONE OF THEM. They can SMELL you…
See, Katia has a unique smell,it goes well with them…
Anyways, BE you and ONLY you, You are AMAZING,and if you SMELL different maybe you will have to disengage.
Maybe your true calling is elsewhere…!!!!!
LOVE YOU ERICA
KATIE,
7 HOURS TO GO…OH,my …I can’t even FOCUS…weird…I need to check in TRAUMA CENTER:))))
JULIETTE WE LOVE YOU !!!!!!!!!!!
KATHARINA HESSE,
KATHARINA AS Hipparchia the Cynic…
You are my role model …I am trying to cut and paste YOUR bio from your website but I have NO luck!
YOUR WEBSITE ROCKS !!!!!!!!!!
KATHARINA if you will read this , your key is ready …
and you are HOT too…hmmm….?
P.S Katie…I knew YOU are MY EYES and my ears !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
LOVE ,ALL we need is LOVE…
AND my GRACIE,
I want ice cream too. You are always here for ALL of US…
You are THE ONLY ONE GRACIE !!!!
p.s Who is this J.Springer? Does he BURN ???
LOVE YOU GRACIE,LOVE YOU BURN, LOVE YOU ALL
Civilian,
ha ha. thanks for the key…
Me a role model ? Don’t think so !
Katharina,
you are a BURNIAN , a true BURNIAN, and as a BURNIAN I want a high self esteem.
REPEAT after me:
I AM A BURNIAN AND I DESERVE IT :))))
Hands UP in the air like Herve …again:
I AM A BURNIAN AND I DESERVE IT :))))
VIVA
TO BOB BLACK,
Bob U Rock Now = B U R N
gina martin:
“Anton helped me designs a “bumper sticker” to sell at LOOK3 this year….” you twisted minds :)))
Wendy you are right…:))) they ROCK !!!
Be United Rock Naked = BURN
Burn United Ride Naked = BURN
WTF help me out BURNIANS …
Ross / Vasilios..thanks..it was a weird day..the man who called the police was an instant target, was jumped, these kids were only about 13..it’s as if all fear/respect for elders is gone..i guess that what was I was getting too, until I stayed and stayed, then they warmed..
KATIA yes yes. to see the changes in a couple of the boys faces, the way they were leaning in to hear what I was saying, and shussing the other ones who were still taunting..it was touching, they asked if I was going to come back..I think it will have to be an organic situation if it unfolds, I don’t think I can choose this right now..
erica–
please stay in touch with them, however intermittently, if at all possible.
they ARE “lost” and i feel your presence among them would remind them
what goodness is. a truly caring adult in their midst could mean
the difference between being lost.. and found.
thank you for existing..
k.
KATIA
xo..I may bring a couple of books over to show them..mostly to show how / why their stories are important too..the concern/ assumption is that I’d only want their image to do them harm, and it would be great for them to get that my interest was because they are worthwhile..
and KATIA
not to break your heart, but here is a student essay about the houses a lot of the kids live in:
“The Brooklyn Red Hook Housing Projects are located on a peninsula in New York. It is a public housing project and is a large part of Brooklyn. The people that live here are “cut off from the rest of the world” so to speak. Most of the building complexes are built like middle class apartment buildings. They are usually six floors high, but they are occasionally up to 14 floors high. Considering the building complexes are so close together, they seem like a prison. The buildings are connected together, occupying a space of about 12 blocks.
The Red Hooks were built in 1939 and now contain many different races such as Puerto Ricans, Mexicans, and mostly blacks. Many of the children go to shabby schools with a low class of education, but over half of them don’t go to school at all. A big lack of respect from the young people in the projects has become a big issue in the projects. One reason for this is that they are out running all hours of the night with no ambition to do anything but to make or steal enough money to buy drugs or alcohol. Another factor is that people are becoming parents at a younger age than usual. Therefore, none of these people are teaching their kids any respect because they never grew up with any.
The physical conditions of the buildings are poor in the projects. The areas that used to be full of grass are now just fenced in concrete slab. There is always a lot of construction going on. The buildings you live in determine how nice they are going to be. The drug dealers tend to live in the dirtiest of the buildings. Usually all the buildings are graffiti filled. The rooms are all terribly small. You can barely fit a family of four in a two-bedroom apartment.”
erica mcdonald
May 21, 2009 at 7:07 am
“..it was touching, they asked if I was going to come back..I think it will have to be an organic situation if it unfolds, I don’t think I can choose this right now..”
katia roberts
May 21, 2009 at 7:25 am
erica–
please stay in touch with them, however intermittently, if at all possible.
they ARE “lost” and i feel your presence among them would remind them
what goodness is. a truly caring adult in their midst could mean
the difference between being lost.. and found.
THANK YOU for existing …”
ERICA WE BELIEVE IN YOU THAT YOU BELIEVE IN THEM AND THEY BELIEVE IN YOU…
hmmm…PLEASE ENGAGE, please ENGAGE…you might “smell” like them after all??
LOVE what else to ASK for???
WELCOME HOME JULIETTE !!!
“they are worthwhile”,..yes, yes and Yes.
and this i say with conviction, that
underneath their posturing and bravado they are good
and kind and want nothing more than to be loved.
please bring them the books.
a tear slides down my cheek to think of it..
<3
k.
finally,
“a tear slides down my cheek to think of it..”
THANK YOU KATIA ROBERTS
NNTR
“iamkatia
this blog is about my relationship with many of the homeless street youth in seattle.”
I AM KATIA
I AM KATIA
I AM KATIA
What a blog …Me Civilian I am Speechless …
I want to say THANK YOU but I have so many tears…
Civilian
THANK YOU! yes, Juliette´s en-route! i am en-loca!
does Katharina burn? does she burn? oh Civibaby, does she! just listen to this..(insert the word ¨Burn¨ for ¨Bang¨)
KATHARINA this is for you, ggrl!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E6HFSM1RDHA
Katia and Erica
thanks for this exachange as well..i have read most attentively..i shoot these kids every week..they are precious children..underneath all the chains and the smirks and the posing and strutting, they are kids. But they also want to be taken seriously, not condescended to..so if you joke with them, smile sincerely, walk easily among them, they´re red seas will part..
it´s a beautiful thing..
the best thing i ever did was to go shooting with a yashicamat tlr..the boys loved it..they all wanted to look through it and i let them take pictures too..they bonded with me instantly over our mutual respect for strange machinery. also, if they´re goths or whatever, admire their clothes, ask them about their culture. they love to talk about it.
also, Latinos..remember always, always, they are extremely traditional at heart. Ask about their moms and their hermanitos..for them it´s allll about family. I don´t see so many black kids so can´t tell you about that culture so much.
Make friends with one who is friendly and accepted..he will be your key to the group. If there´s a weird or dangerous dynamic, don´t show fear. walk as they walk and if you can´t get the chemistry to realx then disengage gradually, naturally. In no time you will be able to walk among them as the unique paerson that you are and nobody will lift an eyebrow. You´ll probably meet their moms and aunts and stuff too..being relaxed is the most important thing..as if you´ve always been there. as if you are one of them even though you clearly are not. they´ll love you for that accepting quality.
hope you don´t think i´m intruding..it´s just that i shoot tough kids all the time. i love them most of all.
hugz to you both
kat-
also, sorry for the typos..sooo many interruptions!
kat
KATIE ,
you are my ears, my eyes and now my VOICE…I am not good with words…’smell’ ,”engage”
You covered me …again…speechless…You have a way with writing !!!
Katharina,
Shy BURNIAN but her website is “cold “like fire !!! Speechless…again…
Easy on Juliette,
breath before you talk…Did you read above…THE NEW GENERATION…
LOVE
Where is Lassal,Asher, Martin B, Abele, Tom Hyde, Paul T, Sofia, Patricia…?
Where is ……., …….,……..,……..,…..,?
WHERE ARE you? I NEED NEW BLOOD , ONE DOWN 999 TO GO !!!!
Laughing …..
KAT..
yes, all good things to remember..I am glad you are involved with the kids.
I actually was involved with a ‘shooting back’ type of photo program for at risk kids in Bed Stuy..and these kids had up big walls and had it tough (which really surfaced in showing Gene Richard’s Cocaine book and Donna F’s Living with the Enemy with comments like “looks like my mom after she..” and “I could get one of my step-dad like that doing..”) so i am familiar with the walk..but these kids yesterday, it was the absolute disregard for adult /authority and for each other that got to me..they really wanted to see these 2 girls harm each other, had no problem hurting the man who made the police call, and certainly could have turned on me if it didn’t play out as it did..but I’ve said enough on the whole thing.
ALL..
can someone please post the link with photos of Panos’ opening party??? i just cannot find it……and i got so far behind with everything that is going on that i missed it the first time around….
i cannot find my glasses either….or, my card reader…or, my aussie vest…i am a mess for sure…so help me out please on the Panos party…..
cheers, david
David,
here it is: http://conversesrouges.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/panos-exhibit/index.html
It’s my birthday today..
thank u all the “face-bookians”..
that wrote on my dirty wall…
21st of may…!!
DAH, KATHARINA…
thank you….:)
Erica
you know, i think the proof that a society is broken is when the kids get just like this..what you witnessed yesterday. It has been happening here too. i have seen it on the news but have not personally witnessed it. And it´s profoundly shocking in this country. Yes, perhaps i am very naive about my experiences because i have always been treated so well by kids even when they are thieves, live on the street and feared by locals. I think i would have been shaken up badly if i saw what you did, felt that anarchy, smelled that violent energy..something i am sure that would have literally made my blood run cold. The worst thing that happens to me is some kids will approach and i can feel that they are not good..right then, with that group, i can feel the danger. And i scram like Michael Jackson´s ¨beat it¨.
I hope you never experience such a thing as that again. i feel sure that you won´t. Best of luck and success with your project. i REALLY look forward to seeing it because you have a wonderful eye for the soul within.
hugz
kathleen
Panos..feliz cumpleanos, birthday boy…this year has been a helluva ride for you and i know next year will be even better because you, baby, are just hitting your stride!
love always
kathleen
Panos, Katharina
Kat, thanks for posting the slide show..i enjoyed it totally..Panos, congratulations..the slide show made me feel like i was one of the happy revelers..and your prints, ohmygod, they looked amazing at that size. So fabulous..loved them!
best!
kathleen
Thank u Kathleen and now it’s a good opportunity
to thank HAIK once again..
This guy was in charge of everything…
From the prints to the wine and even checking on
my mood regularly…:)
Congrats on both the exhibition and your birthday! Interesting stuff and going with the small prints as well was a good idea. Good to not see an un-pretentious exhibition!
You should check out http://www.jarisilomaki.com and his work. I have seen two of his exhibitions and he basically just nails the prints to the well. Anders Petersen also did that on a recent exhibition. Masao Yamamoto and his working methods are also interesting.
Cheers
Was adressed to Panos of course. It would be great if the posts were editable sometimes :)
Should be “Good to see an un-pretentious exhibition!”
Thank you Martin…
:))))))
Thank u for the links..
Yes I was trying to “recreate”
a “Venice beach feeling”..
In a white empty room with no sand either…
And no frames…
… Not an easy task…
But Freida helped me out..
Dressing my photos with colorful fabrics…
Instead of using expensive traditional frames ..
thanks again Martin for noticing…!
PANOS
Happy Happy Day to you!!
40+ trips around the sun…
Enjoy your special day….
XOX
Wendy….:))
As DAH said.. You’re always smiling…
You’re a blessing…!
PANOS ,
HAPPY BIRTHDAY
THAT’S For YOU , YOU are a BURNIAN originale !!! VIVA
HAPPY BIRTHDAY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eLFk0I-lCI&feature=related
Xronia Polla = Good Years ( translations):))))))
Civilians voted – you will succeed …
FROM THE CIVILIANS OF THE WORLD:
THANK YOU FREIDA
We Love YOU and you are looking Hot !!!
FROM THE CIVILIANS OF THE WORLD:
THANK YOU HAIK,
WE have No clue how you are looking BUT you Must be HOT too!!!
I am TRAPPED here…
Got to go!!
2 down 998 to GO
VIVA BURN !!!!
Thank u CIVI and Laura Montanari for
sending me wishes in Greek ..!!?
Viva Italia and viva France ( Audrey merci..)
and viva Germany… Martin..
Hey Beijing.:)
What up!!!
TO Yalda Pashai-F
VIVA GEMINIS !!!! VIVA CANADA !!!
We love U
PANOS – HAPPY BIRTHDAY MI AMIGO!!! hugs from baja, california!
will watch the link when i get back and the internet is not so slow.
where are you civi?
you are so needed…
people need air,
to breathe…
to center…
my goodness,
it’s rough out there…
I’m feeling for Jenn…
her essay
got lost in the
BURNING…..
damn shame….
xo
Civlian
SHE´S HERE!!! (and already in bed asleep..which is fine cuz i know exactly where she is for a change, haha)
Haik:
You are one helluva good person. I mean that.
Panos..
You´re right, credit goes where credit´s due (haha, i first typed ´dude´i love a good ironic typo) Haik is such a great friend to you..and believe me you could do a LOT worse than having someone like Haik to call friend…I think we could all do a lot worse..HAIK, you´re great!
Wendy
You´re another one..i agree with DAH, you are always smiling, always such a joy..i smile right back atcha whenever i see your name always followed by your signature long line of words, choreografed so beautifully into a white column of smilig good cheer. Just thought i´d say that..particularly tonight when the site is so serious, so dug in against a blizzard of opinions and heavy handed discussion. I am taking a breath before i dive in…………or not. But your post is a good reminder to me that i´m here for the photos and not for the angst.
ciaio chica
kat-
JULIETTE,
You have a lucky star…My Gracie will come with her music and she will tell all the right words…
LOVE and see you soon !!!
KATHLEEN FONSECA,
besides the Street Fighter what about BURN spoke(woman)…
ENJOY …ENJOY…ENJOY…I can see you laughing like big mama and DAH …:)))
Please, don’t be trapped to the BURNing web…enjoy for a while …from your dyslexic CIVI…!!!!!!!!!!!
LOVE YOU, LOVE YOU …etc, etc,etc
TO ALL,
This is a GOOD point. CONSIDER :
“ciara
May 21, 2009 at 9:37 am
Is it possible that some of the confusion may have crept in because the photographer’s first language isn’t English?”
THANK YOU ALLLLL, please don’t ger trapped in the WEB :)
TO ALEX MAJOLI,
THANK YOU.
“… he made an intimate portrayal of the closing of an asylum for the insane on the island of Leros, Greece, a project that became the subject of his first book, Leros… ”
As a Greek Civilian I am NOT proud for “LEROS”
But AS Civilian of the world I am proud for the photographers…that you are OUT there …
YOU are the “EYES”… please SHOOT responsible…
oups…
WENDY, WENDY, WENDY,
from now on ,you will be called THE BURNING SMILE …
RHETORIC
always has its physical counterpart
or bodyguard with an optional ‘on’ button:
– SLAP IN THE FACE
or SHOULDER SHAKE enough to make
mossy marbles roll around
us humans are endowed with self control
and a super ego taped to a pointy finger
quivering over the ‘on’ button
(kudos to the one who understood
what i just said this friggin early friday morn)
gmornin
david bo
david ba
david ah
coffee anyone?
yes, Herve, i am ‘incorrigible’….imagine being married to me ;)))))))…
anyway, after a long long talk last night, here, will make this it…hold me to it….
all left to say….luck for all
Dreamsong: 1
Huffy Henry hid the day,
unappeasable Henry sulked.
I see his point,—a trying to put things over.
It was the thought that they thought
they could do it made Henry wicked & away.
But he should have come out and talked.
All the world like a woolen lover
once did seem on Henry’s side.
Then came a departure.
Thereafter nothing fell out as it might or ought.
I don’t see how Henry, pried
open for all the world to see, survived.
What he has now to say is a long
wonder the world can bear & be.
Once in a sycamore I was glad
all at the top, and I sang.
Hard on the land wears the strong sea
and empty grows every bed.
-john berryman
gracie..
i´ve now drunk so much coffee today that i am wired in head and want to fly away like my full stops and commas who went missing this way or the space between words whicharegoingastraysonocoffeeformealthoughheresoneforthee
LD
I have tickets for Fiji !!!
ALL aboard…???
Bobb you are incorrigible***…THATS WHY WE LOVE YOU
Davidb =” I’ve drunk so much ouzo that I am wired in head and want to fly …” :)))
DAH =” I will be out…skip forward (72hours and) 15 minutes….”:)))
I will be back …
*** Etymology: Middle English, as a (1) : not reformable : DEPRAVED (2) : DELINQUENT b : not manageable : UNRULY c : UNALTERABLE, INVETERATE
NO, we are NOT “trapped”,
we are just playing a trick and hiding in the barn !!!!!!!!!!
I am gonna bring some matches too in my way back in case you are stop BUTNING …yeah right..
Laughing like You with you at you …ESL needed :))))
LOVE ME TENDER…nananan…LOVE me…
J,K,G,DB,BB,PS,H,K,W,D,P,…YEEEAAAAAAAA, HAAAAAAAAAAA…Spacecowboy…?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
Friday Wanderings
i’m starting to think i have a weird fascination with this topic.
So stuffed animals it is again:
http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html/nyregion/1-in-8-million/#/melissa_dixson
ANTON / ERICA / ALL
“whatever you do, DO NOT INTERACT with disrespecting or demeaning comments. let the comment stand like a sore thumb, ignored by all. it’s the only way.”
“I think this is now the correct approach…. I just want to be clear that this isn’t about freezing anyone out… it is about addressing the behaviour which is problematic and unproductive.”
I couldn’t agree more.
Anton has provided the antidote to this recent infection, it’s now in our control to stomp out this behaviour; it’s clear if we keep going on this way it’s materially undermining the health of our future.
TO ALL-
In the spirit of Joe’s Friday wanderings, I have just purcahsed a book by a photographer who I did not know Didier Ben Loulou and the work/ book he has done on Jerusalem is of itmost beauty. I recommed it…
http://www.didierbenloulou.com/
Hope others like it as well.
Eric
ALL….
we are now preparing letters to all who applied to the EPF so that you can know one way or the other if you are in the running….
the delay in doing this was caused in part by one finalist voluntarily dropping out because this photographer chose to no longer work on the project for which application was being made…a VERY honest photographer…thanks, you know who you are…..the other reason is of course the sometimes slow task of double checking the credibility and veracity of each applicant and their story, permissions etc etc…….and with one dropping out, we had to go back through quite a few second choices and quite a bit more research…
this whole process has been daunting to say the least…Anton and i literally have had to go through and do all of this by ourselves with not even an intern to help…..no complaints, just a bit of an explanation of why we are a week behind….when the dust settles i hope all of you will be proud of the selection….
i would also like to point out that the judgments of work here has nothing to do with perhaps previous judgments of the same work….i had no clue, nor did Anton, of any previous recognition of work submitted…with so many photographers to view, we did not research each and every one to see what had happened to the essay in previous awards…however, really strong essays often are awarded several grants , so this is not an unlikely scenario at all….as a matter of fact, i cannot remember any strong essay not winning multiple awards….
photographers who are not finalists are still high on our list for future publication and possible commissions…i mean, there was a lot of truly fine work submitted……a lot….mind boggling actually…a real surprise to me….
while obviously i am proud of the EPF and thankful to the donors who made it possible, the EPF is just a small part of what we want to do with BURN….it came up as an interesting possibility on Road Trips and just segued over here….however, at this very moment , i would say i will never do it again…a whole lot of work and a constant defense of doing this whole lot of work and at a personal financial loss to both Anton and i to boot….but, time may change my opinion…as i always say, a good nights sleep and a hot shower remedy many things….i do at least have hot water….
thank you for your patience…..letters should go out within 24 hours…should i call Anton and wake him up????
cheers, david
the grant is a celebration .. a celebration of new photography and people who are DOING IT..
anyone shortlisted anywhere – the 10 or the 200 – is going to celebrate and we need to do the same..
the encouragement they get will keep them with noses to the grindstone for years.. the encouragement behind the scenes from david – is JUST as great a tribute as ´winning´ anything.. will keep us going for years.
at 5 or 6 am this morning david gave an honest critique of a promising young student i am working with.. and thankyou on his behalf david – the words will keep him going for YEARS: it´s more than you need do.. all of this is more than you need do..
when you thank us for jotting mumbles, it humbles.. really.
if there is one place on the photo-web where everyone wins, then it is here..
i mean honestly – could it be that some take this place for granted? i don´t know..
one thing about the forum here is that it IS NOT a normal forum.. there IS an over-riding desire to have a positive atmosphere.. the personal stuff detracts.. the too and fro of arguments is a BIG turn-off.. no those who post and more importantly for those who do not post..
i´m as guilty as anyone of dragging things down in that past.. and i´m ashamed for when it has happened because this is an educational facility and a place of nurturing.. it is not a local newspaper.. not the tough world of publishing nor the pretentious gallery world.. it´s for learning, and if we all give of our knowledge it´s going to be a resource for the future which is valued as much as it is today.
in my classroom there is a positive atmosphere of critical praise.
some of the posters in here simply would not be welcome there – in fact they would be thrown out and laughed at.. bitter soup tastes foul in such places and ego is left at the door..
GIVE WHAT YOU KNOW rather than express what you do not understand and we´ll all win through.. if bitterness is your bag and you get a rise from inflaming anger, this is not the place for you.. if you´d rather stab than caress think about why..
it´s as simple as cooking, i think, and all the ingredient needs to be TASTY..
AUDREY
thanks for the comment.
i showed a piece of work one of my students is doing today, which was directly inspired by your parents essay.. i´d love to show you some of what alex is doing.. although i could let him do it himself..
hmm.. if you go to my facebook homepage, alexander left the second last comment..
actually – will dig out his email and email you both..
yes.
sorted
(for ***s and ****z)
dx
i mean i showed his work to david..
okay.. must eat.. dizzy.. dizzy..
civilian – know a good taverna?
=>> ;ø)
AND
the finalist who dropped out of the EPF HAS ALREADY WON IT:::
they have no barriers, conditions, excuses nor requirements..
as with all who are photographing what they want to..
CONGRATULATIONS TO THEM.
beers
davidx
Jim, ALL…
lets leave the essay alone and lets move into the BUZZ room…
Jim with only one comment per person what about if i get enlightened and change my mind
about the essay at some point?
Maybe they should allow mulligans for posts that miss.
Three mulligans for $5.
….Jim ,excellent idea…:)))))))))))
write anything u like but $1 per post……….
(for last year only i probably owe BURN around $10,000…
laughing………..)
… and if we charge by the “length” of the comment…:)
then bobb owes Burn around half a million bucks…?
Could fund the gallery that way. First post is free, additional posts $1 each.
Anything over the amount needed to fund the gallery gets credited to bobb’s account.
… u know Jim… maybe it started like a joke but it totally
makes sense… if we want to vent or plug in our work and shows
we should pay…
viva America… land of the “nothing’s free”…
love y’all…
happy MEMORIAL weekend my fellow Americans….
The first beautiful day in Paris this year…..The good weather got me thinking about Perpignan and Visa pour l’image…what about a Burn event down there in September, or even a gathering. It would be fun to meet folks on the forum in person.
good night
Panos/Jim ;)))))))))))))))))))))))))
i think i’d owe BURN 100,000,000 ;)))….(maybe more for the 3 1/2 years at LS and year at Magnum)…wait until the photobook is published with my essays ;)))))…actually, i have a new essay to send to burn (maybe by years end): only words, with pics at the end ;)))…but, i owe Marina more, since i give her heart-BURN with all my posts and swings ;))))))))…..and Civilian too, since he’s one of the few that actually hikes through my posts ;))))…and maybe the only guy that read my entire ‘excerpt’ from Bones that Burn published…(excluding Lance, Patricia, Lisa and my wife, who read it all)…
but i’ll take the extra credit to my account…by i still think i’ll be in arears ;))))…for years ;))))…i must buy Herve a bottle of red too, since i’ve given him head-aches for 2 1’/2 years ;)))..
running
hugs
bob
Jim wrote,
“Could fund the gallery that way. First post is free, additional posts $1 each.”
Burn operators are standing by…..
“burn operator” to panos…
“… sorry mr skoulidas but your credit card just declined…
try again later…”
laughing……..
JIM..
already took my mulligan for the month…they are monthly aren’t they??
do not see the gallery making a profit…do you?? but if there is, then Burn throws a party…
cheers, david
vote for the party!
Perhaps we need a “Donate for the Party” button.
DAH,
Who was the photographer who dropped out? I’m interested and so is probably everyone else.. Or can he come forward? Would be interesting to know.
Cheers
ANTON wrote:
“… resist that urge…” .
oups…I couldn’t resist :))
I had to go find matches and LOOK what I SEE :
LOOK1 I see BOBB
LOOK2 I see JIM
LOOK3 I see PANOS
Here I am …among THE BURNIANS…WTF= We The Fire
P.S THIS is one of the happiest moments of my life in BURNLAND !!!
I received an e-mail, long time expected …
THANK YOU BURN magazine…I am not a FINALIST !!!!!!!!!
CAUSE YOU, all of YOU …NO matter what …YOU ARE !!!
TO BOB BLACK,
I am in AWE !!!
You owe me 2cents…hmmm almost one euro…Free ESL Lessons, or no?
BUT
You owe MARINA and DIMA …a lifetime membership to the nearest SPA or something …
My man, between I and you, I wish you can limit your postings to one page ( 300 words).
Second thought…nope…WTF…you are DA MAN…We love YOU the way you are !!!
Welcome back MARTIN BRINK !
The only thing that it has been dropped out are some BONES…leftovers from Bob’s essay!
( to be perceived as a joke)
LOVE you ALLL
SHOOT BURNIANS !!!!go out and shoot!!!
KATIE,JULIETTE,MYGRACIE,HAIK,KATHATINA, DAVIDB,AUDREY,WENDY,
JOEEEEEEEEE,PAT,JARED,MARCIN, REIMAR
ANDREWB, STELIOS,THEODORIS,ZISKAR,DIMITRIOS,
CARRIE,LAURA, KERRY,TOMY,IMMANTS,OIME……..
enough, I got to go find my matches…SHOOT damnit…I will come back cause
Beyond Here Lies Nothin’
Even Mulligun is Jim’s idea?
OIME…!!! You know…CREDIT WHEN CREDIT …
Running
like you
BurnBoy
KATIE, street fighter
WAKE UPPPPPPPPPPPP
WAKE UPPPPPPPPPPPP
WAKE UOOOOOOOOOOOOPpppp!!!!
I am so HAPPY for you !!!!!!!!!!
GOOD NEWS FOR YOU …Got to go …Formula one in MONACO but YOU
MRS.KATHLEEN FONSECA….PARTY partypartyparty !!!!!!!!!
BURN with LOVE
Thanks Civilian! laughing..
TO THE UNIVERSE,
“there are so many in our audience who are quite literally afraid to speak….they are afraid of being ridiculed or attacked…our comment section is not seen as a friendly place nor a place of thoughtful discussion by 99% of our readers who do not comment…..that is just ” DAH
I AM IN LOVE WITH BURN
I DON’T CARE …
IF I LOOSE MY MIND…
CAUSE I AM ALREADY CURSED…
DON’T be afraid…take the risk…you will cry the first few days
BUT you ARE ALREADY CURSED…!!!!
every day
we started fighting
every night
we fell in love…
Nice David B(owen)….I saw them on TV a few days ago…are they the big hit in Norway now?? Kind of like the macarena of Scandanavia?
BOB BLACK and DAH,
I have emailed both of you with a first stab at a single-picture-and-extended-word-essay idea. Check your respective email boxes.
Cheers,
Sidney
david b
it is never ending.. alexander has been on tv constantly for almost 5 months..
he wrote the song himself.. i seem to know everything about him by default.. whether interested or not..
happy for him – he is very humble and grateful.. and yes.. very everywhere :ø9
David b,
i saw the work of Alex, very great work! You can be proud!
Best, audrey
and you audrey – the inspiration alex found from your work began the journey of photographing his family life..
fantastic stuff when paths cross and you two can meet online..
buzzbuzzbuzzbuzzbuzzbuzz
buzzbuzzbuzzbuzzbuzzbuzz
buzzbuzzbuzzbuzzbuzzbuzz
buzzbuzzbuzzbuzzbuzzbuzz
buzzbuzzbuzzbuzzbuzzbuzz
buzzbuzzbuzzbuzzbuzzbuzz
x
.. and so can you audrey – for inspiring alex last september with your work..
David B, Audrey..:))
Who the hell is Alex..?
And about that Utube link above..???!
Who is the guy with the violin
singing a song in broken English to
the people of Moscow..????
Panos, I don’t speak about same Alex… Alexander Rybak is the winner in the eurovision and it would seem that David B is very proud it too!!
Ps: wow, the Norwegian dancers raise very high their leg!!
CIVILIAN…
you always bring good cheer over here under Dialogue….since even more chat will be going on over here in the very near future, you will have an even larger role to play….hmmmmm, we need an official title for you…..i cannot think right now…you come up with your own job description please…
MARTIN BRINK…
welcome home!!
i do not know if the photographer who dropped out as a finalist would want to be known or not…i will ask….i must say, a quite unusual development….but, the letter we received was an honest self evaluation…heartfelt…this photographer just did not think it was fair to be in the running with a project that this photographer no longer had the desire to pursue …as i said, a very honest photographer….
JIM…
one of the most interesting tidbits you revealed the other day was that you played blues guitar…at one point i worked very hard at blues harmonica….i liked the harmonica because i could carry my little blues Hohner (product placement) around in the bottom of my Domke bag (product placement) and could take it out and jam with just about anyone anywhere in the world with anything…now, imagine a Burn party with you on guitar , Panos on drum, Gracie on keyboard, and me doing some harmonica riffs…who plays base??? cannot survive without base….
to hell with an online magazine…..let’s form a band…how about a bit of blues/country/rock?? across the country in an old school bus….document the whole thing …make a movie..book..make an album…arty cover….well, ok straight shot for the cover…sell tickets..pay for the gallery…jam session at the gallery…sell prints…take the money , buy gas, hit the road….damn, nobody can stop us now!!!!
cheers, david
David, that brings back scary memories “The Electric Koolaid Acid Test.” Think I’ll pass. ;)
seriously DAH …. i wld luv to volunteer to b the BUS Driver …ie well er …if i gt a driving permit fr the united states …. lol …. anyways … gt the beach house message … wld defintly luv to join u der …
cheers vivek
MR.HARVEY,
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm… THAT is the HAPPIEST DAY OF MY LIFE IN BURN !
I had a meeting with other Civilians and we are extremely honored
BUT
I am allergic to official roles…
We promise though that we will keep BURNing
and oime… We are so many…hmmmm:)))
THANK YOU MR.HARVEY …you will succeed !!!
P.S Mr.DAH can I play BOUZOUKI ? on the road…I am always on the road looking for the best TAVERNAS!!
We can BURN UNSTOPPABLE :)))
JIM…
yes, that was a bit over the top…although i must admit that some of the Kesey, Thompson, Wolfe combo of thinking was interesting to me…i was raising two sons during that era and never tried LSD or was into the drug culture at all..Tom Wolfe was a Richmond boy as was Tom Robbins when i worked at the Richmond Times Dispatch, so all of those writers had a big influence on me….right along with my childhood Mark Twain, Hemingway etc etc…so the lure of the road was etched in pretty deep..but it had nothing to do with drugs in my mind….i did not even smoke a joint until i was over 30…the gonzo Hunter S. Thomson still resonates with me however….Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas sure got me out of Richmond and i still laugh at some of those scenes….
cheers, david
CIVILIAN..
yea, i hate official titles too …forget it…CIVILIAN is enough….
PANOS
Happy belated birthday, dear one. May this new year of life bring good light, your Venice Beach book in hand, new LA Salvadoran photos (?), and lots of love!!!
hugs & kisses
Patricia
Mr.Harvey:
“If a man has a talent and cannot use it, he has failed. If he has a talent and uses only half of it, he has partly failed. If he has a talent and learns somehow to use the whole of it, he has gloriously succeeded, and won a satisfaction and a triumph few men ever know.”
Tom Wolfe
P.S WHAT not to LOVE !!!!!!!!!! 8 more keys to GO!!!!
I’ve heard that Virginia nuts are the best! and ham too!
panos – two alex´s mate..
one, as audrey says, won the eurovision for norway and has sent this country into doe eyes praise as it was on constitution day of may 17th that he got it.. i remain ambivilant, although i love a bit of violin.
the other is a student of mine who has been working hard on documenting his family since i showed audreys work in class back in september.. he´s got some cracking shots now and with a little editing and discussion over the summer there will be something grand for him to show on burn.. funny.. burn inspiring people who ultimately also have burn as a venture to display their work through :ø)
civilian.
cashews are THE king of nuts.. i though you would have known ..
we´re all cashews here.
d
P.S I hope Socrates is not reading BURN …OIME …you guys DO not know where to stop…
It’s a mess again in the “finalist room ”
MR.DAH take your “polaroid” and get out and shoot …
I AM WAITING FOR YOUR BOOK…YOU PROMISED…!!!
DAVIDB,
I LOVE YOU MATE… I am looking for Tavernas…stay TUNED
I call them NUTS…hmmmmmm…:)))wanna joint
oups !!!
I meant …WANT TO JOIN !!!
i blame Plato…
WELCOME and THANK YOU AGAIN FOR COMING !!!!
WE are open 24/7 !!!
Civi: for you…and then im done for the weekend…another part of something long i’ve been writing, which will be part of the book….
FACES: Faces gather time along their edges, sprockets of light pitched around thumb-bowed shadow, the way milk rims the lip and bottom-dip of a glass, the way bone sedimentizes sentiment pitched from the age and voice of the earth, the way glass and stone color from exposure. We speak of time, we speak of faces, we seldom speak of how these cauterizes and coalesces into some odd unknowing. How is it that we distinguish one face from all the others? How is it that we speak of others and ourselves through an algebra of memory, speak of the faces that we have seen or known distinguished into certainty. What else is there in our knowing, at the heart of the well of our remembrance? How is it that we can ever photograph a face, for is it not the deceit (we believe we know another and ourselves by passing through the threshold of the face) that engines our operative waking? Is it not the very illusion under which we, photographers and non-photographers alike, negotiate and arrive each day we awaken and categorize neatly the arrangement of those surrounding us? How else, initially (and over recollected time) do we begin to work out an understanding of someone, let alone ourselves, then by quickly drinking up the constellation of meaning and unmeaning of a face. Recall someone: face or action, which do you see initially? Can a person’s behaviour and character and life remain faceless? To the contrary, can we not picture and construct a face without action? Then what about the blind, what is etched upon their skull and lithe memorial imagery? You should know I am blind in one eye and struggled as a child with un-seeing. At at early age, and often to my horror, i learned that each face is navigable but not attainable. In fact, I have spent the better part of my life trying to decipher what it is that I see when I look into the mirror: how is it that this chimera, this insolvable jigsaw is possibly me. When I became a photographer this became an ethical question: if I could not understand this revenant shell as me (my face yes, but surely not the “I” that is “me.”), how then to photograph someone else, let alone their face? I have not yet solved this quandary. For several years now, I have been working on a long project about faces, a personal journey apart from my other work in pursuit of that reconciliation. The project is embarrassingly Narcissistic. You should know the truth about this project. Every other project I work on, every roll of film that I expose, involves taking a few photographs of the subject faces, stripped of their context, their environment, stripped of all the surrounding earth-gravel and light-dust that we normally associate with photography, even at the risk of subverting the intent of the original projection I am working on. I often (only after people are comfortable) take a few extreme, close-up photographs, trying to get as close to people as I can, as if digging into a mirror. Soon, the disorienting calculus sets in: closeness, infinitely halved. Long exposures, focused, out-of-focus, short exposures, variable depths of field, all jostling in an effort to see how much can be removed in order to still retain the face of the “I’ or the “You.” And, I should add that I always photograph myself at least once each time before I unspool the film from camera and often for the last frame. It is a diary of failure: how far away, how licked-over-distance in the print of a smudge of space: breath between a barracks of lens and light. These photographs are a water-drop nub from this series, which is hopelessly large and seemingly endless. On good days, I think it’s the rhyme around which the rest of my photography and projects revolve and are resolved. On poor days, I feel that again I have failed to understand or properly photograph those faces around me. Failure is nothing new to any of us, and that principle is the nexus around which these simple images should be fingered. In some sense, they are different from most of my work: less and more. I continue to photograph even when I have not yet understood how to begin. Bereft. Beating. Brook. Fall upon me.
II
Everything is always unfinished, always, its in the swallowing of that, sometimes with joy sometimes with exhaustion, that sometimes it begins to make sense…
the swerve and curve of witnessing…
nothing is ever finished, but often we stop or it stops us, sometimes gently sometimes cold…..
twists of braided sticks of time….
I face I
bb
23 lines without paragraphs. Are you fucking crazy, Bob?!?!?
:-))))))))))))))))))
who plays bass???
——————
I do (though you never seem to notice when I offer my help, David. Maybe this time….)
BOBB FOR YOU ,
…”Can a person’s behavior and character and life remain faceless? “………
What is the title of the book?? When is gonna be out? Can I have a signed copy?
You have a way with writing…!!! KATIE is Bob your lost brother…?
Nope…BOB you are really a gentle and loyal SOUL …BUT
784 words count …FOCUS , my man Focus…it took me 36 minutes to read aloud …!!
OIME 784…no kidding:)))))))))))))
Nothing is ever finished…
BOBB FOR YOU ,
…”Can a person’s behavior and character and life remain faceless? “………
What is the title of the book?? When is gonna be out? Can I have a signed copy?
You have a way with writing…!!! KATIE is Bob your lost brother…?
Nope…BOB you are really a gentle and loyal SOUL …BUT
784 words count …FOCUS , my man Focus…it took me 36 minutes to read aloud …!!
OIME 784…no kidding:)))))))))))))
Nothing is ever finished…
I wrote to Patricia about it. But I must say, after the 2 first entries, I feel strange about the EPF taking such an important place on BURN right now (to the point it had us chaging posting rules).
yes, it’s about photography, so what, you will tell me? But it just seems the grantees, finalists have no connect with BURN, and no connect with us. As far as grants go itself, no compliants with that, it’s as it should be.
As far as BURN, since the EPF is given paramount “slot time”, I feel they don’t give a fuck where WE do give a fuck. Their prerogtaive, as Patricia replied. Yes, and my prerogtaive to no comment anymore on any EPF finalist who doesn’t pay us a courtesy call, telling us a bit more about themselves, in the cyberflesh, if you will, and how and why they entered the grant.
If BURN is our baby, like you often say David, then our community should be acknowledged, just a matter of courtesy. There is enough indifference in the world like that.
IMO.
Herve plays Bass !
———————
I will BE Back !!!
i´ll join or joint.. although the harder stuff, (feta, olive oil..), is in the past
just back from the dentist.. part of my personal ´come-down´ from a past life..
the last two weeks has been doctors.. ecg´s.. lung tests.. stress tests.. now have a bone infection in my jaw as my gums dissolved… god knows what they put in feta these days…
so..
codine laced pain killers tonight.. and no alcohol.. :ø/
FETA IS BAD.. if that cheese don´t get you at the time, it surely will years later.
hey – clarinet, sax, guitar and i play blues harmonica too..
used to be in a ´band´ called ¨the love yo-yo´s¨..
we were rubbish.
i was terrible.. stupid..
AM I IN?
I just spoke with DAH and he wanted to let everyone know that he will be offline and traveling for the rest of the day. Anton is currently in the friendly skies somewhere between Tokyo and Belgium. I am currently working behind the curtain on bios for the upcoming finalists. David will likely post the next essay tomorrow morning. He knows everyone is waiting and appreciates your patience.
I will also be painting my new edit wall with magnetic paint between emails. Does this stuff really work …?
Herve,
If you read the first string of posts on Jenn’s essay you might get the impressions that in light of the reality, there was essentially a witch hunt by some knee-jerk monster: first targeting her text, then targeting the legality of her effort, then targeting her own sense of humanity for the effort, then targeting her betrayal of the people that gave her access, then insinuating this was another essay that was a candidate for pulling, then and only then after loads of riot-inciting and finally learning the absurdity of his witch hunt, (about forty!!! comments later) did this monster even begin to offer up something mildly constructive and never an apology for the wild initial accusations.
again, why the heck would anyone feel compelled to wade into that Herve? Jenn’s calibre of effort, talent, and direction warrants loads more respect than this. And i don’t know her personally, she could be a monster, but her works suggests otherwise.
at the very least her time is worth more than this, it was simply more efficient to let the shoot-from-the-hip imbecile figure out for himself how absurd his ideas were, especially when there was no chance for an apology after the imbecile learned how obnoxious they were as has been shown in the past. Imagine the typing-frenzy-alternative to even begin to turn that loose-canon around once it got started? Would you enjoy that Herve? Actually you might, you love to argue, not a bad thing, but not everyone’s desire.
the irony for me for this specific incident is that one of the best minds at Burn, Mike, actually stated in this same thread that this imbecile is not-polite, but spot on. Well Mike, looking specifically at this most recent effort and the effort you chose to defend, i just don’t see it that way, and i’ll never let you forget it.
Basically Herve, we made the bed, we have to sleep in it, and it’s no wonder it’s lonely sometimes. Now this monster thinks he is doing us a favour by being so absurdly polarised, rude, and out right obnoxious towards each person’s work, but if we don’t get any interplay between the authors and ‘us‘ as an audience, who’s really suffering?
And sorry Herve, this low-author participation is an epidemic that started long before the EPF, I think you’ll find it linked closely to the person that the one-comment-per-post was entirely instigated by.
Kind Regards,
Joe
Come on Joe, tell us what you really think. Be courageous, at least use the monster’s name. :)
And I remain disturbed at the ethics of exploiting people locked in an institution for the insane who don’t have the capacity to give permission for a photographer to walk through the doors of the institution that is supposed to be protecting them and use their names and images. It’s wrong.
Her text makes an assertion that the criminally insane are being treated inhumanely in America without offering a single fact to back up that assertion. That’s just wrong.
¨I remain disturbed at the ethics of exploiting people locked in an institution for the insane who don’t have the capacity to give permission for a photographer to walk through the doors of the institution that is supposed to be protecting them and use their names and images. It’s wrong.¨
_________________
oh god jim – are you talking about nightclub photography?
¨I remain disturbed at the ethics of exploiting people locked in an institution for the insane who don’t have the capacity to give permission for a photographer to walk through the doors of the institution that is supposed to be protecting them and use their names and images. It’s wrong.¨
oh god jim – are you talking about nightclub photography?
Just responding to Joe’s post. :)
In the correct thread, this time!
yes, you are doing Fine…I am going to bring some whiskey too!
No feta cheese…Davidb you are lucky …you ended with ONLY a done infection…
It’s INSANE here…what Not to LOVE ?
mass(v) civilian r´spec..
LUCKY is what i was.. toooo much feta when i could have stuck to brie.
i mean.. standing in a nightclub, listening to stilton with my feet stuck to a chedder dancefloor while rushing from brie..
it could have ended in a terrible fondu.
BOOM BOOM:
Had you stuck to brie, you would have probably ended up with high blood pressure. Something’s gonna get you.
got it jim.. added it to my collection of ailments and it´s settling in nicely with a white russian and small bowl of roasted cashew nuts.
MAXIMUM LOVE to hillary for the most relaxing of strolls..
https://www.burnmagazine.org/essays/2009/05/hillary-atiyeh-in-hot-water/comment-page-1/#comments
hillary – thank you so much for the touching email.. replying now.. i wanted to mention it here because you are the first photographer gracious enough to email thanks for my insignificant mumblings under your work.. utterly humbled.
there is real magic about your work..
thank you.
dx
goodness me..
don´t we all want the contributors of burn to come away with a positive experience?
especially those who might already be feeling shy at the exposure of the EPF announcement?
hillary and her email reminded me just how real the people showing there work here are.. how real we all are.. apart from civilian who is HYPER real.. HYPER kind.. HYPER real.
off for the night.. gonna tuck in my mini baby bell and switch on the hi-fi.
And remember to breath.. like lori.. once in a while.
https://www.burnmagazine.org/essays/2009/05/lori-vrba-safekeeping/
if this site were a record collection it would have it all – punk to funk
DAH,
That’s just amazing and very impressive. He or she is an inspiration to us all and deserves a lot of credit.
@ALL, most especially our fine host DAH…
I have been quite absent from here for some few weeks, due to personal situations…but just wanted to wave hello to all before I try the long read to catch back up, I’m sure it will take some days….
To make a long story short, which I can seldom truly do, 2 weeks ago my wife fell while we were roller skating at a friends surprise 40th birthday party…resulting a broken wrist and requiring surgery…thankfully I have not had to travel much while she is mending, but work of course has continued, and I had to pick up what she would do in order to keep the household running (no small feat with a 10-year old). In the evenign I’d say “I’ll just relax and read burn a bit” and before I could get to the page would be asleep in my chair…
But she is mending well and things are getting more close to normal, and I am anxiously looking forward to LOOK3 and meeting so many of you with whom I’ve met here and there via our electronic interfaces….
@DAH
Still keen to be involved, as hopefully you know from past emails and backchannels – I know you were goign to email but also know you have been and continue to be swamped with preparations for EPF announcements, workshops, LOOK3 events, etc etc etc….so amigo, I will simplay offer to buy you a beverage or three while we are in C’ville, and will convey my ideas there….whether or not they are unique or of any use, who knows, but they are driven by inner passion, so I won’t let them go…only sidetracked for a bit…
@LOOK3 attendees…
Who has a list of who’s going? maybe one night a burn get-together? is this organized already, and if not, I will assist if anyone thinks it worthwhile….I’m arriving Thursday afternoon … reach me on facebook or email me….
@haik/panos/etc
not ignoring converses rouge…just caught up trying to get everyone’s shoes tied in time to get to school! will post there soonest.
good light to all … and don’t forget to pause and remember those that should be remembered this weekend…
a.
AndrewB
I wish your wife a quick recovery.
Don’t worry about converses rouges – you have your own share of shoes to tie it seems :)
Best to you and your family – hope things are back to normal sooner than you expect.
Jim Powers – you are in our face. I can’t even read your one liners – it compiles to a book when put together – you are attempting to dominate?
Are you on steroids? blue pills?
you are making this site mystical….
Haik, what do you expect from a “monster?” ;)
The New York Times photoblog Lens has blogged about Alejandro’s High Tide essay…
http://lens.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/05/23/showcase-fictional-photos-real-people/
well done fella
(apologies if someone’s already pointed this out…)
Yep. The essay has been around a while. I think he won some kind of grant for it last year.
Jim – ha ha ha.
You are a gem. I thought I lost my feelings towards you. But, heck, even my vision gets distorted once in a while.
cheers
As relatively little money and recognition as there is to fund new photographers, I hope some of the EPF finalists have new projects that haven’t already won other awards.
Civilian Mass Audience
*taking a deep breath, smiling, exhaling..*
babe, you´re in. i am so proud. of your abilities, your heart and this time, your endearing humility. you earned your stripes, if not the title which you so graciously declined. you have no reason to stand up and shout. you aren´t a shouting kind of person. you´re a low laughter, deep in your throat kind of person, rich with appreciation and aware of the ironies and the egos and the posturing and the chests all puffed up and out, yet you love us anyway. what, what did we do to deserve you here? your home has been turned into a meeting hall and you are official master of ceremonies, but a master who chooses to sit down in the kitchen with the help and not at the table with the guests of honor. so the guests have come to you, all of us crowded in the kitchen, talking shit and drinking beer and ouzo and popping cahsews like they´re m&m´s. you´re in and as one of the kitchen help, i have to say i could not be happier.
love, kisses and a hearty slap on the back
katie street fighter
DAH
I would like to thank you for the honor of providing whatever assistance i can, to the best of my ability, for as long as you want me, for…wait, hold on, excuse me…it´s my daughter, she´s just..wait, JUILETTE, IF YOU DON´T TURN DOWN THAT MUSIC I´M GONNA SMACK YOU SILLY, TIE YOU UP IN THE CELLAR AGAIN AND NOT LET YOU OUT TO GO BACK TO CLASSES AND YOU CAN JUST FORGET YOUR BREAD AND WATER TONIGHT…ok, so, where was i? yes, i was so humbly grateful for your comment about my mothering skills. In truth, being a mother is the greatest gift, the proudest job..wait..ok, this is it..JULIE, I AM COMING IN THERE WITH THE BELT AND I AM GONNA SMACK THOSE BRACES RIGHT OFF YOUR TEETH!!! I´VE HAD IT, REALLY, THIS MOTHER SHIT HAS ABOUT SENT ME AROUND THE BEND, YOU KIDS ARE JUST A BUNCH OF UNGRATEFUL FREELOADERS, NEVER OBEY OR TAKE YOUR ADVICE, COME IN AT 5AM, DON´T DO YOUR DISHES, THROW YOUR TOWELS ON THE FLOOR, TALK BACK, PIERCE YOUR BELLY BUTTONS AND WHO KNOWS WHAT ELSE AND NEVER SAY THANK YOU..I´VE HAD IT, I AM LEAVING HOME, GOING TO LOOK3 AND THERE WILL BE NO FORWARDING ADDRESS, DO YOU HEAR ME, JULIE???????..yes, ok i´m back now, well..as i was saying, being a mother is a humbling experience and my children are the best things i have ever done. What? Did you ask whether i will uphold the integrity of Burn and will i always be honest, truthful, moral and unafraid to say what must be said? Oh yes, as a mom, you have my word on it.
best!
kat-
Kat,
You really made with laugh with your last post :):):)….You are mad but very funny! Will we meet you at Look3?
Eric
Eric
*boohoo*..no, that Look3 stuff was just an empty threat. But shhhh..don´t tell that to my daughter..she really thinks i´m going; she turned that music right down and then ran around the house picking up her sneakers, her books, her drug paraphernalia, haha…just kidding..
*boohoo*..i WISH i could go!
thanks-a-lot!
kat-
@Eric – you will be at Look3? email me….
gracie Gracie gracie wherefore art thou silvery peals of words deep in the night?
knowest thou i imagined the words to keep me moving forward when dreary and dreading the day
we must begin this exchange of technological for emotigriphal…learning both to convey the meaning through the lens
silvery words indeed needed….
a.
KATIE,
My street fighter…hmmmm…have you ever seen the SUPER NANNY …TV series!
I recommend the series for all the mommies !!
NOW, Go back in the room and tell to our beautiful Julie HOW MUCH YOU LOVE HER…
It’s just that since she came You had no chance to BE here…and Now you are BURNING!!!!
Addiction is a weird thing…
P.S LOUD family but they LOVE each other INSANELY :))))))))))))
I am proud like a peacock :))
ANDREWB,
I wish you and your wife the fastest recovery!!!
When a wife is down in the house …hmmmmm…oime the whole house is down…
BUT NOW EVERYTHING WILL GO UPP,UPPPPP !!!!
YES, wish you speed recovery…I will take whatever HAIK said !!!
WE NEED A LIST OF THE LOOK3 UNIVERAL BURNIANS …!!!!!!!!!!!!!ERIC can help?
MY GRACIE,
COME ON …we miss you…You are in the band …and KATIE needs your ice-cream!!!
Martin B you rock:))
OIME !!!
DID you see that we have a new BURNIAN!!!!
WELCOME MRS.Cassandra Adams
CASSANDRA Wrote:
“… I have NO background in photography, so I won’t attempt to address the technical characteristics of your piece. However, I am working on my PhD IN CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGY and felt that you might welcome a different perspective…I think the piece is aptly named and the feeling of being trapped is clearly felt in most of the images. I have to say that I picked up on the jail context much more quickly than I picked up your ….
My strongest critique is that, as a photographic CIVILIAN, I was distracted from the impact of some of the images by trying to figure out what was going on in the picture. I realize that abstract visual media can sometimes have a greater emotional…”
LOVE YOU
WE NEED YOU HERE AND WE NEED so many BURNING SOULS that are wandering out there…
THANK YOU
I just talked to Tom Young who have talked to Mr. Harvey and everything LOOKS good…
They working very hard behind the scenes …
rest assure that there have been no confirmation for the Fiji..
at least not yet .
Thank you for your PATIENCE …BUT you all know that is a ” VIRTUE” that you have to “MASTER”
LOVE to WAIT !!
Joe,
thanks for a very sensitive response to my outburst. Sorry for using the word fuck with it, it was uncalled for.
Like I said, as a grantee, jenn and others only need to submit their work, it is well understood. And it may be that there will be a few regulars in the last 8, after all. has David not told us he was impressed by the talent here, on and on again?
I do wish it, as well as i wish there may be more iconoclastic choices, more risky, complete unknown, rather than just people who have been, so far, many times on the honor roll in the profession. David said he will tell us how his choices were made, in any case.
Jenn seems to be sailing fine to me, not emerging! ;-) Mind you, anyone under 40, famous or no, could well be quoted as emerging, in a medium where old masters were often finally celebrated in their late age. The Magnum inductees, not quite members, are still emerging P’s, after all, I suppose.
I still think that if the EPF is an integral part of BURN as a website (not just BURN members on one side, and EPF grantess on another, with David the only relation), there should be a little more input from the finalists. I would really like to hear if Jenn would use the possible grant to further the cause of publicizing the fate of these poor souls, and in general what any finalist would want to use the money for.
Last, BUT NOT LEAST:
I do think that in the realization and success of the EPF, David’s legacy and dedication to helping so many at the onset of their career, will find quite an occupation, as the years come by. Can some of you join me in convincing David that the EPF should soon really be called, the DAVID ALAN HARVEY EPF GRANT, Emphasis on DAH?
HAPPY MEMORIAL DAY, WEEKEND…
HISTORY may NOT repeated …!!!!!!!!!
ENJOY!
“Where is Lassal,Asher, Martin B, Abele, Tom Hyde, Paul T, Sofia, Patricia…?
Where is ……., …….,……..,……..,…..,?
WHERE ARE you? I NEED NEW BLOOD , ONE DOWN 999 TO GO !!!!”
Civiian, you do not even imagine how spot on you were with your “I NEED MORE BLOOD” comment. As is I am sitting more or less in front of Vlad’s (Dracula’s) house in Sighisoara, Transylvania. There is a spot with some internet reception on this square.
Antonin Kratochvil’s workshop just ended and … what shall I say?! Guess I need some more blood too (and a lot of sleep)… It was a tremendous experience but now all I want is to get home and digest this. Instead I am the only one left of the group. My flight goes tomorrow … Enough time for one last dance with the old vampire.
So much seems to have happened here on BURN! I am amazed! Will need time to catch up and read it all. Congrats to all of you who have had work published this last week. Panos, I hope your exhibition was a true success and I hope to find a link to pictures of it somewhere here … :-) BTW, Diego was here too … You should see him, he is doing freeclimbing and it really shows :))))
Ok … will walk to the trainstation now. I am thinking of doing a multimedia piece of my work here … and if so I will need some more material. This is not the best place to sit and write comments anyway :)
The next bottle of blood goes on me!
Cheers to all and until soon(est)
Lassal
The donation button!!!!! Finally!!!!!! I will get to it as soon as I am back. Happy to see it here.
LASSAL,
Do you play any instruments?Then, Mr.Harvey is looking for YOU:))
Give our love to Mr.Kratochvil !!! VIVA TRANSYLVANIA !!!
BURNIANS,
let’s send good energy and blood to Lassal !!! See you around, kudo…
oh … and before I forget.
For all of you who are going to LOOK3 (and the rest)
don’t forget DAH’s B’day!
We are having a dedicated Slovenian messenger to deliver our greetings from Transylvania, but I sure wish I could be there and hug him in person.
Have fun partying yall!!!!
Geez, the tiles fall off the walls when I start singing. But in fact I do have an harmonica. Love the blues. Why? Are we into musik now too?????
LASSAL,
check this out:
david alan harvey
May 23, 2009 at 7:14 am
“…let’s form a band…how about a bit of blues/country/rock?? across the country in an old school bus….document the whole thing …make a movie..book..make an album…arty cover….well, ok straight shot for the cover…sell tickets..pay for the gallery…jam session at the gallery…sell prints…take the money , buy gas, hit the road….damn, nobody can stop us now!!!!”
When is Plato’s Birthday ??? I am making baklava and kataifi…desserts
Harmonica…I guess you are IN !!!
WE ARE INTO everything, these days :))
INSANE :)))
I am going to buy beer …I ‘ll be back
ANDREW B
that sounds like a nasty break – hope all is well and good to see you..
thoughts
david
civilian.
buy beer?
on a SUNDAY?
you, my friend, clearly do not live in norway… goddam god and his day of rest.
not that i´m allowed to drink ..
okay…
going to the beach to show tor capa the north sea.. perfect angry sky, blustery day..
beers
david
civi
i think platos birthday is the day after d-day.. it was more excitement than his mother could take..
or was it the day before?
hmm.
5th or the 7th june..
oh, and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cWzxJvgWc8 is what life is made for.
CIVILAIAN,
“WE NEED A LIST OF THE LOOK3 UNIVERAL BURNIANS …!!!!!!!!!!!!!ERIC can help?”
Wish I could Civilian but I am about to jump onto plane in about 4 hours and then I will mots likely have limited computer access for at about 10-12 days so would prefer another BURNIAN to pick up the ball… We do wish to meet as many Burnians though in Look3!!!!!
Cheers,
Eric
HERVE…
the EPF has nothing to do with changing the way we might post…you are pretty regular here and i cannot imagine you have not read all along the discussions on how best to monitor…it just happen to come up again on the Jenn piece….
i think you might be confusing the word “emerging” with the word “beginner” or with”entry level” photographer…..emerging in my mind is not an entry level or beginning photographer, but one who shows extreme promise but is not yet significantly published or exhibited…
Jenn is quite clearly emerging….she has no books or exhibitions…
these are the lines in my mind, how i think and how i define emerging and how most of us would define emerging….
the jurors will have their own decision to make which is one of the reasons why i took myself off of the jury for the actual recipient…i think the best definition of emerging is obviously in the mind of the photographer submitting …i doubt any photographer who felt they were beyond the “emerging” stage would submit for an emerging photographer grant…..yes, there is 10k on the table…but when i went through all of the names of photographers who submitted i did not find one single entrant who i felt had crossed the line…
cheers, david
Hope everyone in the states has a great Memorial Day rest of the weekend..good shooting, family, picnics or all of the above for those of you who seem to thread it all together seamlessly.
DAH, will you have the chance to shoot for Family on this holiday?
peace and productivity to all…
DAVID B…CIVILIAN..
at the very hour (literally) Robert Capa was trying to keep the water off of his lens on the beach at Normandy , is exactly the hour i was born …it was 8am in France on the 6th…but around 11pm in San Fransciso on the 5th….
oh, and I was looking at Smith’s Dream Street Pittsburgh Project again last night..I couldn’t help but wonder how he would have applied the funding if he had a 10K grant during his time there…he did a heck of a lot in a year without the additional monies but was going into greater debt making 17,000 negatives and working on it non-stop..but it was through 2 Guggenheims that he was able to bring that giant mass into a coherent publishable form.
Someone said they would like to hear how the epf finalists would use the money, and if those people have concrete plans that would be interesting to hear, but from my (negative rich and money poor) perspective, the money is ever so important foremost because it allows you to keep working on something you’d have to abandon..
Bad example. I think the only magazine that would publish Smith’s efforts on the Pittsburgh Project at the time was Popular Photography. Smith thought that he was as good an editor as a photographer. Others didn’t agree.
Who can top this B-Day ? hmmm…:))
David,
You are one of the most sentimental big guy I know. Sentimental macho is more correct :)
Jim when is your B-day? Is Smith’s effort your cup of tea?
Sorry too many questions, so little time!
JIM…
i agree with what you said about Smith editing/publishing……but, do not understand why it is a ” bad example” as per what Erica said….
Jim, Popular Photography was the only one at the time that would allow him complete control over the layout, but how is a bad example, and a bad example of what? I was wondering how Smith would have used the money in the shooting of the project.
It wasn’t that no one would publish them, it was that the other magazines were unwilling to give up control.
“Smith and Magnum began approaching potential publishers of the project in 1956. Many magazines were interested, including Life, but none would agree to his demands for editorial control. He rejected several offers of up to $20,000 for rights to the pictures when his terms of publication were not accepted.”
The spread in popular photography confirmed they were right in not giving him editorial control. :)
David, Smith wasn’t an “emerging photographer” by any means at the time of the Pittsburg Project. He wouldn’t have needed grants to get the photos “together” if he hadn’t let his ego get in the way.
Jim,
bad example of what?
Smith could have benefited from grant money to shoot the project..he was assigned it only for three weeks and stayed a year to his own financial debt and detriment.
Possibly you are right in that his dependency on alcohol and amphetamines, along with his his self doubt, made his editing skills less than they should be, but it seems the major pitfall was that the essay was best represented in a form other than that of a magazine spread.
“The published layout in PP was mostly Smith’s design, but he was extremely dissatisfied – devastated – with the result. The magazine, as a form, simply was not a suitable vehicle for the complex essay that Smith had envisioned.”
Nonsense. Where are you getting this revisionist history? The layout was bad because Smith was a terrible editor of his own work.
He should have stayed with “Life” where they had real editors.
ERICA…JIM
“if he hadn’t let his ego get in the way”……hmmmmmm, strange analysis considering that without that “ego getting in the way” we would not have one of the greatest essayists of all time….
editing and layout are two totally different things…
LIFE did have real editors….but, name one??? only name to come out of LIFE at the time is Smith from an historical perspective….
however, i can easily imagine Smith being a bad editor….the issue is complex
But I am a fan of his photography. “Minamata” is incredible.
David, correct. His editing choices were bad.
JIM…
i agree…..Minamata is it
If you think this is revisionist history, take it up with the following people, centers and Universities.
Sam Stephenson, the chosen individual to edit DREAM STREET: W. Eugene Smith’s Pittsburgh Project, published on occasion of the exhibition organized by the Carnegie Museum of Art with the participation of the Collection and Smith Archive at the center for Creative Photography, University of Arizona and through The center for Documentary Studies in association with the W W Norton and Co. Stephenson was awarded a NEA to continue his work on Smith, and is a writer and researcher at the center for Documentary Studies at Duke. And from Alan Trachtenberg, a Neil grey Prof at Yale, author of Reading American Photographs: Images as History.
(because that is where I am “you getting this revisionist history”..)
beautiful light, time to shoot!
Well, at least we now know the source of the revisionist history.
Jim ,
I told you so …:
ERICA IS DA WOMAN…!!!VIVA
Erica
(wo)man, i love it when you kick revisionist ass! eeeehaaawwww, ride ´em cowgirl!
happy shoot-em-up in da cit-tayyyy!!!
DAH, ERICA, JIM
and hmm…very interesting discussion on Smith. i am ashamed to say i only discovered him this year through the books ¨Fat Baby¨ and ¨The Blue Room¨. I like The Fat Baby sooo much. I am really interested in knowing more about him now. Thanks for greeting me with this discussion this morning.
hugZ
kat-
Kathleen, just go straight for Minamata. Incredible photos.
But I think you are thinking of Eugene Richards.
JIM,
you DA MAN too…what happens is that KATIE, our street fighter NEEDS her cup of coffee in ORDER to function properly …Hmmm…
Thanks for being so nice …:)
Maybe we will have: 3 down 997 to go ???
JIM
haha..so right! dopey me..my eyes are still sleepy…but still a super interesting discussion and Minimata gets sucha great endorsement from you all i am going to hunt it down, thanks!
kathie
CIVILIAN ****
hahahaha, i didn´t see your post yet when i said i was still sleepy…i´m just giggling here because as usual, you NAILED it! coffeeee…COFFEEEE…wheeerre´ssss my COFFEEEEEEEEEEEEEE..maid? maid? damn, can´t get good help anymore..if you want a cup of joe you gotta actually make it yourself..i mean, what the hell?? now see what she´s done, Civlian? She made me look like an idjit on the forum! Eugene Smith, Eugene Richards, i mean, one Eugene is the same as another Eugene without caffiene….*runs off hollering MAID MAID, DONDE THE HELL ESTA UD????*
(****satire alert)
HUGz
KAT
KATHLEEN…
i need to give you a reading list…only if we are all on the same page with the most basic history of photography can we even begin to have discussion here…i am not chastising…it is just a truism….the digital age has brought with it a whole generation of photographers who can do technically what the older masters could not do, but with no knowledge of what the masters did do….unlike practitioners in all of the other arts, photographers do not seem to feel compelled to get a handle on the big picture…very little referencing …… in the last few years my students come in to a workshop having spent a lot of money on cameras , air tickets, hotels, etc etc and just have almost no reference points….curious to me…a new phenomena for all teachers….anyway, i will send you by email soonest what i want to be a helpful reading list…..before i do that , please send me an email with what you have read and studied and what you most want to get out of your work…
cheers, david
JIM
ohhh..ok, now, yes, of course i know of Minamata. i have often seen ¨Tomoko Uemura in Her Bath¨, Unfortunately the book is out of print and Amazon has one for $416..but, i am fascinated with the Pittsburgh Project..why wasn´it ever finished, i.e. why was a book never done, even now? Is it now his family that keeps that from happening? i don´t understand..the work sounds monumental..how frustrating that it would not be in print..
hmmm..
kat-
I have been fortunate enough to have seen an exhibition of Eugene Smith’s work “Let Truth Be The Prejudice” in London some years ago. It was a Tour-de-Force. Kathleen, at least one book of the same title is available.
Mike.
DAH
Oh yes, i totally agree with you!!! I have a lot of catching up to do and in truth have invested great sums in money and dedicated a lot of space and also time studying photography books. Yes, i will send a list and greatly appreciate you filling in the blanks for me and making recommendations. My slip-up this morning is that honestly i have only superficially encountered W. Eugene Smith and know far more about Eugene Richards because i have two of his books..ok. a list shortly..thanks for your interest!
kathleen
Mike R
You´re right, there is a copy on Amazon for 49.95 which i can definately manage..thank you soo much!
kat
KATHLEEN…
“Dream Street” the Pittsburg project by W. Eugene Smith
after all the hoopla, clearly not his best work
There is a book…ah, finally found it. “Dream Street, W. Eugene Smith’s Pittsburgh Project.” Published in 2003.
simple minds and all that ;)
Many times quantity doesn’t result in quality. Fueling an intense project with booze and amphetamines probably doesn’t result in your best work.
kat
~manuel alvarez bravo~
another one to check out..
one of my favs…..
xo
oime…
Reading list…reading …???
oime…I am going out for sangria …I ‘ll be back
Or you can go to your local public library, Kathleen, and if they dont have it, they’ll get it for you. The Brooklyn Public Library has two copies of Smith’s Dream Street: one at the Crown Heights branch and the other at the Central Library. Now, I dont live anywhere near Brooklyn and I think the copy sitting on the lamp table next to my bed is the Central Library’s copy, and I got it because I asked the nice folks down at our happy little burg’s public library to get it for me. Actually, they gave me a very strange look when I came in asking for a book. Much of modern library work seems to center around keeping kids from looking at porn on the public computers; someone actually asking for a book seems a bit retro to the employees these days. That being said, I will concur with everyone else and say that Minamata will blow your socks off. As for the Pittsburgh project, I dont think the fundamental problem was Smith’s editing skills or his ability (or lack thereof) in laying out his pictures; the fundamental problem with the project, as someone above mentioned, was that Smith had too much to say and not enough space to say it in. You can’t cram Proust’s In search of lost time onto a single page and have it make sense. Smith should have done Pittsburgh as a book. And not that anyone asked, but my vacation went well and will soon be ending. I did go to the wicked city twice this past week; I saw no Burnians in my walks through the great metropolis, so I assume all of you were out of town enjoying the sunshine in less crowded circumstances.
David, you need to give us all a reading list ;-)) Something I’m still holding you to …
CIVILIAN,
not to worry, guy. I dont think anyone will mind if you just look at the pictures.
Kathleen, I have a small book “W Eugene Smith 55” ISBN 0-7148-4035-1 which is a good introduction to his work. It is part of the 55 series of photography books published by Phaidon.
The book describes how he received a commission from Stefan Lorant to spend three weeks photographing Pittsburgh and producing 100 prints for a book. He spent the first month wandering around and reading the city’s history: without taking any photographs. He then spent the best part of a year in Pittsburgh, taking more than 13,000 photographs, and then spent the next three years developing prints and layouts. His obsession with the essay almost bankrupted both him and Magnum.
He obviously thought than no one else could edit the essay and he was right: how could anyone else even attempt the task? By the same token how could anyone publish such a task except, perhaps, in book form?
A brilliant photographer but a walking disaster zone as far as personal relationships were concerned. One of my heroes (I don’t have many).
See also “W Eugene Smith: Shadow and Substance” by Jim Hughes
and
“Let Truth be the Prejudice: W. Eugene Smith – His Life and Photographs”
by Ben Maddow and John G Morris.
Best wishes,
Mike.
AKAKY(****satire alert)
No wonder why all my best friends name start with AAAAAAAAAAA
ANTON, AKAKY, AKATIE…
LOVE YOU ALL…start reading …I WILL be BACK…no kidding
Akaky has a point about Smith’s work. It doesn’t hold together well if you start picking and choosing among the images. While there are a number of images that are outstanding as single’s hanging on a gallery wall, he was first a story teller and some of the problem, indeed, is that the Pittsburgh Project is just too big to present as such. His own attempt at editing was a failure that not even he was happy with. Actually, the magazine format – as practiced at Life and edited by Life editors- was the best format for his work, in my opinion.
Civilian, as long you’ve got Divided Soul and Cuba, you’ve got it pretty much covered. ;)
I’ve been away for a day, lots going on, hard to keep up.
David Alan, with regard to the “one post” issue. I guess if that’s what has to happen. My hesitaiton about that format is that it is very hard to follow Buzz and other dialoques unless you are on them constantly. Discussion of the essays just gets lost.
I totally agree that comments under the essays and selected photographs can get way off topic, and way out of hand.
There are folks out there who just like a good argument. Even if you don’t want to read them you still have to wade through them, and it does set an often angry tone.
Perhaps we need Monty Python style Dialogues with doors marked “arguments” and “abuse” or “whining and ranting”
Why does the link to the latest EPF essay, which is published, say “Hold To Publish” beside it?
You guys are GREAT! Thanks sooo much!!
AKAKY,
Unfortunately i live in Central America and the main library in the city has been closed for repairs for the last 10 or 12 years..i get my books mainly on trips back to the US and hand carry them along with fast film back to CR which is no small feat and great hell on spinal columns. And then it´s hard keeping them from rotting in this awful humidity. I run one dehumidifier in the room that holds my books anbd another in the closet where i keep my cameras. My photo books and my cameras are my dearest tresures.
YOUNG TOM
:))))))
WENDY
Yes, Manuel Alvaro Bravo is incredible..i do so agree with you!
DAH and JIM (and ERICA though she is not here right now)
Yes, it may be that ¨Dream Street¨(Pittsburgh Project) is not Smith´s best work but there is something about the time in his life, the upheaval, the dysfunction perhaps due to substance abuse (?) that intrigues me..such a prolific amount of work, 11,000 negatives…such dire circumstances, such compulsion..this fascinates me somewhat, to see the work and feel his state of mind at the time. i do wonder..of course one must be able to perceive his mind and emotional state through his work. It would seem that the project bears seeing if only as a document to this period in a great photographer´s life..to give relevance and perspective to his other work. I mean, now you guys have intrigued me so much about him i am not going to rest till i take a great big bite out of his ouvre.
my sincere thanks to all and i do mean this..why you put up with my frequent faux pas i will never know :))
kat
KATHLEEN…
you are quite correct that the study of all of the turmoil that surrounded Smith and the Pittsburgh work and the whole editing process etc is worth thinking about…by the way, where do you live in Central America if i may ask???
GORDON…
i just posted a new finalist essay..let’s see if the one thoughtful comment per person works…it just seems like it would make our site a bit more meaningful and relevant if the selection of work was matched by a more thoughtful selection of comments…again, this is totally self monitored…i delete nothing…let’s please remember that this was suggested by Jim who is the most prolific poster of all, so if he is willing to do it, why shouldn’t we all??? anyway, let’s see….take a look at Simona, think about it, write about it…many thanks
cheers, david
Why does the essay say “hold to publish” beside it?
JIM…
i don’t see it…where?? i can take it out in a sec…we always have that until we have everything in and i was waiting for Simona bio…tell me, tell me and i will delete..thanks
don’t see it Jim..did you refresh??
Am I incorrect in thinking/assuming that Burn was going to be a venue or a passageway for unknown documentary photographers?? I am a little disappointed that so far two out of the three finalists so far are completely contemporary artsy, with choreographed posed obscurity. There are so many other places with that kind of photography, and very very few for up and coming “real-life” photographers. There is so much more interesting real world happenings out there that isn’t being shown or encouraged. I don’t mean to sound close minded with that last sentence, but c’mon… There are so many great unknowns out there risking their lives sometimes for honest striking photography that get shadowed out by some pretentious “artist” who feels the need to communicate their troubled feelings through heavily photo-shopped b.s. Wow, that was a run-on. Anyway, you know what I am saying. What if Sebastio Salgado was 20 years old today, trying to shoot and become known? It would be a lot harder for him to get noticed, and may never get noticed. Imagine all the great HONEST imagery being shut out by someone with a camera who obviously needs their ego pampered. I know I sound like the old man on the porch, but I was just really hopeful about meeting some new Salgado(s) through this site, because I know they are out there. I will just have to keep on relying on old faithful for that- Magnum.
DAH,
Yes, i was thinking that if the Pittsburgh Project was atypical of Smith´s work then that is where i wish i could start. It would tell me a lot about him. Photographers and artists are not faceless people to me. I always want to know about who ¨they¨ were or are, their successes as well as their missteps, their development..their lives matter to me and this Project, and what you all say about him as an editor..this is all very very interesting to me. He must have made people just absolutely insane. This kind of obsession, this unbelievable need to ´say´something that never ends up being said the way he felt it needed to be said. I feel this frustration in his mind deeply within mine. It´s strange. This is my reaction. I must know more about him.
I live in Costa Rica.
There is a great space available to do a workshop (hint hint)..it was a gallery, in the historic wonderful arty part of the city, the only block in town where people have any artistic sensibility. What beautiful, beautiful space. In case you ever had fantasies about conducting a workshop in a new place :))
love ya!
kat-
David, I did refresh. But, it seems to be gone now.
Richard, I agree with you. But David wants eclectic, and it’s his party. :)
DAH,
I also saw what Jim saw, however it’s gone now. It was after [EPF finalist].
Cheers
JIM…
ok, got it….
RICHARD…
yes, you are incorrect in your thinking that publishing unknown documentary photographer’s is my motive…
you are also jumping to conclusions about what i am doing since you have not seen all of the photographer’s i will present as finalists…
my goal now and always has been to publish leading edge photography of all kinds….i have so stated my eclectic tastes from the very first day of BURN…
there are many kinds of “honest imagery”…both from artists and from documentary photographers…why be so narrow in your evaluation of what is “honest”????
you will meet a NEW Salgado through this site…but, you will not meet someone JUST LIKE Salgado…we already have Salgado!!!
and yes, i do go way beyond on BURN where Magnum has traditionally been…Magnum photographers all bear witness…..Simona goes beyond this…and Simona is not in Magnum nor would she get in Magnum with this work…but she does earn her living as a documentary photographer with the journalistic agency Contrasto which is a sub-agent for Magnum in Italy….this is her personal work, her real passion…why not let the woman fly and explore and just BE who she wants to be????
i do know what you are talking about Richard….i respect traditional work and you will see it in the coming days…Jenn, published just before is certainly traditional and would you not imagine the next photographer might be as well????
please again refer to the Szarkowski’s “Mirrors and Windows”….an old traditional book and exhibit…but with a view that all of us are going to see the world in different ways, either through a window (straight documentary) or through a mirror (introspective)…Simona is obviously looking in the mirror…..
please do not join the ranks of the cynical..such a sad mistake…open your windows and get some fresh air…it does not mean that you have to like everything, but at least know the menu and perhaps get a sample of something you may not have heretofore “tasted”….
cheers, david
Well, David, I figured you would slip in Post Modern sooner or later. Certainly nothing wrong with Simona’s technique (but of course, there wouldn’t be at this level of competition), but I’m just not a fan of self conscious, self referential photography. Unless symbols are universal, you end up talking to yourself.
You get points for mixing it up, though. ;)
David/All,
I appreciate whole-heartedly the fact that you have spent an un-imaginable amount of time in creating this site and allowing ALL photographers a chance to show their work. That being said, I also want to say that in no way with my last comment did I accurately convey that in fact I do appreciate other forms of imagery, I just thought Burn was going to be different in more ways than just the layout. And by layout I mean the fact that I can speak in real time to you, the curator. I also need to tell you (so that you don’t see me in an incorrect light) that it would be a mistake to incur the notion that I would not want Simona to be able to express herself. I think it is great that she can do that, here or anywhere. I do however, tend to have strong opinions about what photography is and what it should be. Just my opinions, remember. This site is wonderful, don’t get me wrong, but is a rarity these days to find a place that absolutely shines on those who photograph things as they are happening, and showcase the true talent and vision associated with that. To me, that is the true judgment of a “photographer”- one who has the gift of stopping time in such a way that differentiates his/herself from any other human who has ever held a camera… at the same time educating those around them about the subjects they are witnessing. When someone painstakingly arranges props and people to create a “scene”, to me that is just a cop out for someone to lazy to paint. I admire those who stop real time in such a way that makes me hold my breath. These are just my opinions David, I know they are strong. I really love this site and will continue to visit it. Thank you for all you do. I wish all the entrants the best in their paths. Thank You for allowing me to speak.
JIM…RICHARD…ALL
the jurors will see a good cross section of what young photographers are doing today…some more subjective in their exploration, some quite traditional….i do not expect everyone to be a fan of one thing or another….i merely want to synthesize the best of the different styles that were presented to me….i just happen to sincerely like an eclectic mix, but i know surely that not everyone here will…
i do not understand all of Simona’s references here since she is exploring her childhood dreams…i had very different dreams as i am sure did you….but, i find it absolutely fascinating to travel in her world…i have not been there, but i haven’t been lots of places….
again, the jurors, also an eclectic mix, will make the final decision…and even that is going to rankle either one school or another….
cheers, david
RICHARD…
i take the time to write to you because you are giving your instinctive heartfelt response…and your comment is well taken…i was just trying to give you some perspective on my motivations etc for BURN…i think when the dust settles, you will see a pure documentary photographer here who will be working on the highest levels of the type that stimulates you most…..but, your vision of what photography should be is fair enough…many of my colleagues in Magnum would feel exactly as do you….
i must say i do not see Simona as being “too lazy to paint” although her background would certainly indicate that painting has been a great influence….and i do not even think it an irony that she is quite a good photojournalist which you can see if you study all that she does…..
you are most welcomed here Richard, and this is exactly the type of discussion that i encourage….
cheers, david
you know, what I really want to see someday is some EPF winner take the check and then blow it all in Vegas on booze, blackjack, and blondes. Not going to happen, though; there’s lots of terribly earnest people in this neck of the woods.
KATHLEEN/ALL
A great internet resource over at HCSP, just what the doctor ordered — though geared mostly towards street photography (whatever that means), the list encompasses much more:
http://www.flickr.com/groups/onthestreet/discuss/72157613320429769/
I just hope someone wins it that isn’t going to use it to spend time hand painting precious artifacts. We already have enough artifacts.
JIM,
let’s have the winner handpaint precious artichokes instead. Then we’d have art that was not only good, but good for you. ;-)
AKAKY…
yea, i know what you mean…when it was cold last winter, and i already had the funds in hand, i thought of doing that myself from Nassau…i thought, hmmmmmm, maybe i could run this 10k right on up to 100k with a nice role of the dice…but, alas i just gave in to some old fashioned moral obligation…
hand painted artichokes??? well, Jim is a vegetarian, hmmmmm
by the way, i am ready for your next picture/text essay combo…any interest??
cheers, david
Edible art is good.
Jared
ohhh!! i like that list already, the second or third one down is Michael Ackerman who has had a very strong influence on me, along with William Klein and Helen Levitt..thanks for the link, Jared!
besos y abrazos
kat-
MR HARVEY,
I am trying to figure out whether I want to do St Patrick’s Day in color or in b&w. In b&w the essay would be vaguely Winograndian in nature: street shots of the passersby doing the sort of thing one expects New Yorkers to do at the St. Patrick’s Day parade. I expect Jim will not like this essay because it will not reflect the highest standards of photojournalistic truth and Panos won’t care for it because I am, yet again, laying the contrast on with a trowel. With color, on the other hand, one gets close ups of the marchers and the passersby, in addition to the picture of the girl with the big rubber hooters full of beer. I expect that Jim will not like this version of the essay because there are no pictures of girls out West Texas way wearing big rubber hooters full of beer and Panos will be annoyed that I did not get the girl with the big rubber hooters full of beer’s name and phone number. And, of course, the prospect of sitting down at the desk and watching the blank sheet of paper taunting me as I try to think of something to write is almost too horrifying for words. So, yes, I am interested, but I am also procrastinating, which is something I’m fairly good at.
Come on, Akaky, you could have used your ONE POST to say what you thought of the photographers work! All target practice at me is supposed to happen over here. :)
Context, Jim, context. Here I would have to explain what the wisecrack was all about and if you have to explain the premises of a joke before you tell it, said joke will not be funny, as someone is going want to know what the hell you’re talking about. On the other hand, of course, Simona is probably wondering what the hell natural blondes have to do with the subject of her very serious essay and no doubt thinking that questo posto e pieno di pazzi, posto e pieno di pazzi not being a government sponsored plan to mail pienos from a town called Pazzi, which is what I thought it meant at first. My brother explained to me later that this was not the case (he speaks Italian-I dont).
I haven’t made my ONE POST yet… but in the meantime I will join in here just to say that while I am so grateful we all have the opportunity to express ourselves with photography I am just NOT into quite a bit of the work that is posted on burn….as a VIEWER.
Not to say there is anything wrong with it or be disrespectful at all. It’s just that no matter how hard I try, a lot of fine art photography does not do for me what photojournalism or straight documentary photography does. The “creative personal work” I see so much of here doesn’t excite or “move” me the way it does most who post here. With much of the work here I am happy for the photographer who has enjoyed making the image, I wish them well. Hope they have a great career if that’s what they want, but for me to spend time trying to figure out what their images mean (to me, to them, to whoever) doesn’t interest me. There are too many other images out there to find and look at which DO thrill me. I saw the PDN photojournalism winners this morning and can’t get them out of my head. GREAT work. Nachtwey et al.
I wish I could remember his exact words…I had an acting coach in LA years ago (Charles Conrad, the BEST) who compared certain acting performances to someone in a rainstorm peeing in their raincoat…the audience wasn’t invited to share in their experience. They were having the experience right in front of us but we couldn’t see it (I know that is a wild analogy but think about it for a second before cringing) I see some very well made photographs but for whatever reason, they don’t invite me in, don’t make me WANT to experience them deeply. If I’m somehow not hearing the invitation (deafness?) I can accept that but either way, it’s just not happening for me. Looking forward to seeing the documentary work mentioned above.
Jim, I give you a lot of credit for hanging in here and taking the abuse. :))
‘è’ would be the correct word, Akaky, as ‘e’ without ` has a different meaning, but i’m sure simona would understand nontheless..
I know there’s an accent somewhere there, Eva, and I know there’s a way of getting a PC to make such marks, but I figured no one would blame me for not being a stickler about the grammar of a language I dont speak ;-)
Cathy, that’s my broad problem with Post Modern photography. The photography itself is either self absorbed, or the photographer is constantly saying “look at this thing I’ve created.” Ultimate, when I’m looking at the photo, I’m interested in the subject, not the photographer. Make the photo a window onto something, not a mirror reflecting the photographer.
TO ALL THOSE ATTENDING LOOK3….
email me if you are going and i will “attempt” or organize a get together… gmartin@ngs.org
sweetheart
KAT
It’s a work in progress, more stuff added all the time, so check back every so often.
@Gina
sent you an email. As I posted yesterday, I’m willing to help organize a get together or even just a list of who from here is attending…let me know if I can help in any way.
good light to all,
a.
@DAH
Add me to the list of those wanting a suggested photography reading list…as erica knows, I am likely one of the most ignorant here when it comes to such things….and a good list is a great place to start.
good light,
a.
Well I missed most of the discussion on W. Eugene Smith but he was one of my earliest influences. I can remember as a kid going to the library and looking at Country Doctor, Spanish Village, Nurse Midwife and others over and over. Even today thirty years later and viewing his work hundreds of times, I still get that feeling in the pit of my stomach when I view his work.
I can also say how terribly disappointed I was when years later I learned how he manipulated some of his images in the darkroom. It sure took the wind out of my sails when I found out on what was one of my all time favorite Eugene Smith photos, Spanish Wake from the Spanish Village essay, he bleached out the eyes of one of the family members, and penciled them in so the were looking at the deceased instead of at the camera. I will say he did a good job, I know I must have looked at that photo a hundred times and never caught it, but once it was pointed out to me, that is now where me eye goes to every time. I am surprised his name hasn’t surfaced before in some of the ethics discussions on Burn.
Still to this day he is one of my favorite photographers, but lets be glad Eugene never got a hold of Photoshop.
If anyone is interested there is a great book called W. Eugene Smith Shadow & Substance, The Life and Work of an American Photographer by Jim Hughes.
It is out of print but well worth reading if you can get your hands on a copy.
CATHY..
i think if you take the time to look carefully, you will see a balance of both “mirror” and “window” photography here on BURN…the photographer posted just before this, Jenn Ackerman is classically documentary but i do not recall a comment from you about her or any of the other straight documentary photographers presented here on BURN of late…or did i miss a post???
funny that you would see Jim taking abuse, when most see him giving it….curious….
cheers, david
JIM,
Regarding your comment…”Make the photo a window onto something, not a mirror reflecting the photographer.”
I forget who originally said it but David often repeats that an image should be BOTH window AND mirror. I agree with that concept but it’s easier said than done. As you say…photographers can fall into many traps.
Too much window and it’s predictable or mediocre, too much mirror and it can be self absorbed.
What to do (as photographers) other than walk the razors edge and keep trying? :))
Says Cathy after walking back and forth from a Lowrider car event that was cancelled due to rain. :((
Kurt
Interesting, I was just thinking to myself today, Smith would have adored photoshop and embraced digital instantly. No more screwing around with potassium ferrocyanide. A couple of swipes with the dodge tool in highlight mode and wham bam.
The whole point of doing what we do is to communicate what it is we want to say. Who cares (except for the purists} what the hell you do to an image. Whatever you need to do to make it work.
I understand the problem with reportage. But Smiths work was more than reportage.
Kathleen
If you can organize a workshop in Costa Rica with David, I’m in. (as long as I can sleep on your couch)
Gordon, I have no problem with burning and dodging, or for that matter using Potassium ferrocyanide to lighten parts of an image to draw attention, such as he did in Mad Eyes from his story on Haiti. But to remove the eyes and repaint them in, I have a slight problem with that.
hey I love my ferri/bromide cocktails and i wont hear a bad word said against them. :)
John
I dislike intensely ferri/bromide cocktails and make no apology for that………..
DAVID,
Interesting that you bring up the window/mirror example just seconds before I post a comment about it. I didn’t mention it previously…Jim did.
As far as Jim being the giver or recipient of abuse…to tell you the truth I don’t read much of the comments these days so I really don’t know who is doing what to whom. I tried to keep up with reading the conversations in hope of educating myself about the work that’s being shown here but with all the bickering and off-topic conversations I sort of gave up and dropped out. I do look at all the images and comment from time to time. I’ve also been in DC for the past week so perhaps have missed a post or two…I subscribe by email so will check.
Perhaps I’ve got it wrong but I see Jim as one of the few people who are sticking around to express a different point of view from the majority. That makes him a target for anyone who feels they have to “defend” something.
I just hope everyone is enjoying themselves!!! Viva la difference!
:)
Kurt
I agree. Although in group portraits, I often swap heads. Is that cheating? I just came back from the Epson Print Academy workshop in Vancouver. Jean Paul Caponigro said he is often accused of “cheating”, his response is “who’s game are you playing?”
just a a note as I wouldn’t want andrew b’s comment to be misunderstood..I am a huge fan of the printed book and they have been a very important part of my education as pretty much a self-taught photog – and andrew has a big interest in expanding both his knowledge and his collection of books, so we have been talking about what should be in his library..
I just looked at mine last night and had the sense of it being time to add a few more; LOOK should have a good selection of things I wouldn’t have thought of. came home from there last year with Irish Travels, Tinkers no More by Alen MacWeeney..sheer brilliance, check it out
should be Irish Travellers, Tinkers No More
CATHY…
i am really looking forward to your lowrider pictures…i am so pleased to hear you are still working on that project…good for you….
yes, you are quite right, there CAN be way too much self absorbed work these days…there is a very fine line….as in all areas of photography, some are simply more successful at it than others…but, in this case, i think that if a photographer wants to explore childhood dreams then the “mirror” will rule…nevertheless, what would you want hanging on your wall at home?? one of these intriguing images or a photojournalistic reportage?? personally, i will take #2 or #19 for my wall..
John Szarkowski brought up the “mirror and window” concept almost 40 years ago, not Jim or me….
i do not see a “majority” point of view here…i look very carefully…seems to me like every possible point of view represented…..and i am always looking for even more….thanks for yours…
cheers, david
AKAKY…
ahh yes, i totally forgot your St. Patrick Day pictures which i liked very much…let me get through all this EPF work and then i would like to run that story…i think we should edit it down a bit..i will do that with your permission and send you a screen shot for approval…ok with that?? or we can skype and edit together..either way just fine for me….
cheers, david
I’m hoping that the next essay is for the under nines……… it would be great to see someone shooting stuff for that age group
OK
Favourite books, Y’all gotta check out “Suburbia” by Bill Owens. This classic has been re-printed and is available for about 22 bucks on Amazon. Classic classic documentary, medium format, non-judgmental straightforward stuff about ordinary people (in the seventies) one of my all time favourites. check out his site and his current stuff, especially the movies. Hysterical stuff.http://www.billowens.com/
IMANTS…
coming right up….at your service
GORDON…
one of my all time favorites too…particularly the “surprise ending”…love it
cheers, david
DAVID,
Yes, John Szarkowski was the name I was trying to remember when writing Jim above. Thanks.
I will hope to hook up with the lowriders another day. Their cars are now so valuable they won’t bring them out if there is any chance of bad weather!
David
Owens was a big influence on me. It seemed to me he had no particular agenda or judgment, but just wanted to present people as they were, and let them tell their own stories.
Ah, the 70’s. I often tell people that we would be much better off today if technology had just stopped advancing in 1972. :)
Yes, the mirror/window thing is certainly not original. Photography has such an incredibly rich history. It has been amazing to have seen its development since I became interested in it as a 10 year old getting close to 50 years ago. It was an exciting time to be a photographer.
David, you just need to publish a reading list here on Burn.
CATHY…
“Bad Weather” was the name of Martin Parr’s first book….in black & white…
JIM…
will do…
GORDON…
me too..but, then Bill disappeared…went from recognition for Suburbia to running a bar….some photographers have only one thing to say…at least he knew it….
ERICA..
i think we should all be exchanging book lists….i try to keep up , but i miss some….
ANDREW B…
i will be sure to have a book list for you in C’ville
KATHLEEN…
sure let’s do something in San Jose or wherever…….i cannot remember the name of the old hotel where i stayed in the middle of town, but a nice hang spot…and i only know the Caribbean side….ended up once in a small town on the border with Panama full of drug runners and various other colorful characters…any excuse to spend time in that part of the world is just fine with me….i can never stop shooting in those places…maybe others would feel the same….
cheers, david
The book I’m saving my pennies for is Larry Towell’s The World From My Front Porch. His Mennonites book blows me away every time I look at it.
Mind you it’s going to take a while to save up for it. Last week I had Fairfax email saying that they were reducing contributor fees by 15%, for the good of the company of course (insert irony emoticon here please!!)….
Another mag emailed today to say they were holding three of my articles over for another month or so because of falling revenues. It’s a bit of a bugger when you were counting on them!
Still on a brighter note, I’ll be picking up my first ever Holga negs in an hour or so, so have my fingers, arms and legs crossed!!
I spent a couple of days in our capital city photographing a bunch of teens building a “slum” to live in for the World Vision 40hr Famine. They organised everything themselves, and found/scrounged all the wooden pallets, cardboard and tarpaulins to build there temporary accommodation.
Their aim was to demonstrate (in a minor way) the conditions many people must live in. The weather was windy, cold and wet and I tell you what; they were a bunch of genuine nice kids. And I mean “nice” in a good way, not as Billy Connelly would say as in “beige and boring”
It certainly restores your faith in human nature to know that there are caring teens/youths coming through.
Cheers everyone!
DAH – i am totally drawing a blank – who is our mutual friend who lives in Guanajuato?
Hey David,
Just making sure you got my reply to your email about what the book was about. I am still in D.C. for Memorial Day and wont be home until Tuesday.
Thanks again!
LOOK3 ATTENDEES – who sent their email – thank you. i am down here in mexico now – will be back later next week and start organizing something around the LOOK schedule. gmartin@ngs.org
Way, way back in the old ‘Road Trips’ days I posted my own rather extensive booklist… only there were no photo books per se on it! It was a list of journey, travel, adventure, ‘sense of place’ books, both fiction and non-fiction, going back to classical times (remember the discussion about Xenophon’s Anabasis?). While it’s often said, and certainly true, that many pictures are worth a thousand words, might it also be that words can create pictures in the mind that we then try to find manifestations of out in the world, and attempt to capture in our camera?
The 70’s ?? Oh yeah novoflex ,photo gram drums and flares , I can see why it would appeal ,
I made my one post and for once found myself agreeing with you Jim but i have to call you on 1972 being a technology high highwater mark? Ferrocynide makes my skin blister, eyes water and fingernails brown and digital has saved more that one shooter with induced eczema from dropping out of the profession.
But 1971 did give us Larry Clark’s “Tulsa” and 1975 Gene Smith’s “Minamata”.
David
Too true
I looked up Owens a few months ago. His web site is pretty cool. Check it out.
The book I’m saving my pennies for is Larry Towell’s The World From My Front Porch. His Mennonites book blows me away every time I look at it.
Mind you it’s going to take a while to save up for it. Last week I had Fairfax email saying that they were reducing contributor fees by 15%, for the good of the company of course (insert irony emoticon here please!!)….
Another mag emailed today to say they were holding three of my articles over for another month or so because of falling revenues. It’s a bit of a bugger when you were counting on them!
Still on a brighter note, I’ll be picking up my first ever Holga negs in an hour or so, so have my fingers, arms and legs crossed!!
I spent a couple of days in our capital city photographing a bunch of teens building a “slum” to live in for the World Vision 40hr Famine. They organised everything themselves, and found/scrounged all the wooden pallets, cardboard and tarpaulins to build there temporary accommodation.
Their aim was to demonstrate (in a minor way) the conditions many people must live in. The weather was windy, cold and wet and I tell you what; they were a bunch of genuine nice kids. And I mean “nice” in a good way, not as Billy Connelly would say as in “beige and boring”
It certainly restores your faith in human nature to know that there are caring teens/youths coming through.
Cheers everyone!
Book: Robert Frank: Storylines …………..still looking for a copy at a reasonable price
Imants
Franks “lines of my hand”, very cool too.
David Alan Harvey
Born June 5th, 1988.
I also updated wikipedia. Suggestion to move LOOK3 to LAS VEGAS for the 21st birthday bash with alcohol.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Alan_Harvey
The people, Yes. -Jerome leibling.
Early colour. -Saul Leiter.
david AH
well then.. my copy of life mag, june ´44 would be cool for your birthday parcel.
but you cannot have it.. tor capa would not tolerate it… :ø)
right – playing catchup.. reading
david
hi peeps and civilian,
been busy, figured would have missed about a post or two but *NOT* TWO HUNDRED AND FORTY EIGHT posts !!!
@kat, you are just the … such a… very… great mom!! (wink)
@civi, please ignore the feta cheese ie davidb
@jim, looking closely at your posts recently.. glad youve got smileys now. waiting for cuba in the mail. thanks for the tip ;)
@andrew b, kisses on mrs.andrewb’s healing splinters and you for doing the dishes. ive missed you too.
@herve and all, well, i dont play any instruments but i think i can be your singer… been busy in las vegas working on those (what do you call them in japan anton?) karaokeE!!! i might just go back and practice more…
tomorrow should bring good light — my spacecowboy told me.
oh btw, happy 21st bday DAH!! wishing you more gusto and happiness as you gain more experiences about people and yourself… enjoy.
immants.
storylines remains one of my favorite exhibitions.. in part for the films.. strangely i used to have two copies, one from the exhibit and one birthday present.. not any more though.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/3865210414/ref=ed_oe_h_olp
imants, apologies.
HAIK,
you are DA MAN … I will BURN my wiki…from now on I will CUT AND PASTE only from YOU
THE HAIK !!! if you can update Wiki…hmmmmmmm… what else YOU can do !!!!!?????
LOVE
GINA,
Thank you Gina Martin! LOVE your skills!! Everyone LOOK3 for Gina
LOVE
SIDNEY,
I am still looking for your reading list…You were born inside the books…
LOVE
ROSSY,
“If you want happiness for a lifetime – help the next generation.”
Chinese Proverbs quotes
LOVE
JOHN,
loves ferri/bromide coctails …IMANTS, hates them
LOVE
P.S Don’t mess with HAIK…He can change HISTORY
DAVIDB,
TOR CAPA would NOT tolerate…:))
LOVE
MY GRACIE,
THANK YOU !!! YOU are the only BURN MUSE..WE COUNT ON YOU !!!!
LOVE
KATIE, THE street fighter,
what takes you so long …?????????????????????????????????
Juliette …we need HER back here…or maybe there…
I’ve heard that BURN IS GOING TO COSTA RICA !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
and GORDON wants the COUCH…AOUCH …:)))
MIRROR MIRROR on the magnetic wall
BURN is the WINDOW of the WORLD …
Civilian
if you can update Wiki…hmmmmmmm… what else YOU can do
I am looking for Akaky IRL.
I AM A FINALIST !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
IN YOUR HEARTS !!!!!!!!!!!!
VIVA PHOTOGRAFIA !!!
VIVA ART !!!!!!!!!!
VIVA BOOKS !!!!!!!!!!
VIVA CIVILIANS- non photographers!!!!!!!!!!!
VIVA LOOK3 AND LOOK4 AND LOOK4ME
P.S welcome back Cathy, and I PROMISE …NEW BLOOD is coming
VIVA BURNIANS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
MR.HARVEY for your birthday I will FED-EX some souvlakia :))
My Gracie where is Katie ???
Did you forget the Ice-cream…she loves ice-cream…!
oime, you talked to Spacecowboy…!!!!!!!!???
Is he coming…WILL WE EVER MEET ..???????????????????????????????
my last great find in a second hand bookstore in Eumundi, first edition of Don McCullins “The Destruction Business” another choice 1971 era tome for 12 bucks ,even had a review from the Australian December 1971 tucked in between the pages
Thanks David
Tried them but for some reason those book stores won’t ship to Australia………… maybe our economy is in only partial recession and not all the way. I have it on order via my local books seller and he can’t get a decently priced copy.
Glenn
I picked up a copy of the same book from a library sale. Not sure what edition though (am not at home at the moment), but pretty old and tatty. Have you got his “In England”? Great book. His autobiography Unreasonable Behaviour still gives me the chills when i read it, especially the bit where he is in one of Idi Amun’s jails….
Civilian:
My favourite; “No man stands so tall as when he stoops to help a child.”
I guess I’m like others, David, in that I just can’t see the merit in funding the kind of work in Aftermath. You want to give her $10,000 to continue to explore her childhood fantasies (although, they seem to me more made up from whole cloth)? I’m not sure navel gazing should be rewarded with grants. Not when there are so many photographers who need funding.
anyone knows if letters went out?
MAQROLL..
letters went to all but the final 200….
JIM…
the jurors may feel the same as you…most likely will feel the same as you…i am not quite sure how one determines who deserves funding and who does not…is a photographer with one motive and style more deserving than another?? pretty subjective stuff which is the nature of “choice” in the first place….i think even you would agree that it would be a bit uninteresting or boring if all finalists were photojournalists….as i mentioned before , Simona earns her living quite successfully as a photojournalist, but her passion for producing a book lies in this more reflective interpretation of life around her…
my motive now is to present a clear cross section of the best that was submitted to me from what young photographers are producing today…the passions and creativity and aspirations of the next generation…i tried to choose the best that i saw based on sheer creativity and talent and the success of image making….my opinion is of course not unassailable and BURN, the EPF, and everything contained herein is just like when i go out with my camera and take a picture…choosing one angle, lighting, and moment are totally subjective as you yourself have written…nothing more, nothing less…
just trying to do my best Jim to keep the fires of photography burning at a time when so many young photographers feel lost in the sea of mediocrity and with no place to turn for either funding or guidance or any kind of home….
you and i had Life, Look, Natgeo and a whole host of newspapers and agencies to strive for…tangible outlets for our work….in all of my conversations with the young photographers today, they do not feel this sense of viable outlet….BURN cannot solve this of course…but again, a brick in the wall is better than nothing at all…
i do thank you for being a voice here…it is heard….i value an honest strong voice with which i might disagree more than a gratuitous pat on the back….
CIVILIAN…
i spent several hours yesterday working the magnetic wall…helping to put together a book for Medford Taylor now titled Silent Journey….five coats of magnetic paint will do the job….only two coats and you will have magnets all over the floor…just thought you might like to know
cheers, david
Thank you Mr.Harvey,
Actually I am good …I messed up my walls and finally I called some professionals …
Magnetic walls in Greece…hmmmm…go figure…:(
Thank you though …I bet TOM YOUNG will find the above info very helpful !
TOMMY…. DAH is hereeeeeeee.!!!!!!!!! Tommm…wake uppppp.
I have a strong voice too and a strong pat …go figure..Civilians , we strong…
“the jurors may feel the same as you…most likely will feel the same as you”
So the idea was to select the artist as a finalist so her work could be displayed on Burn even though you figured she wouldn’t win? That could have happened without being a finalist. I understand what you are trying to do with Burn, but I can also understand 1,000 people with serious, ongoing projects who submitted work to the contest looking at this and thinking, “What the hell?”
Yes, my bias toward documentary and PJ work is obvious, but isn’t there already enough of this moody, self-referencing fine art already out there?
MARCIN…ALL
one thing about the internet crowd…nobody has any patience!!!
of course you will see some powerful photojournalism to balance out the strong subjective work…do you really think i would do otherwise??
please wait until all 10 (maybe even 12) finalists are up before you jump on me for not choosing this or choosing that….please….
speaking of jumping, i must jump in a car and drive home….offline for a few hours
please be of good cheer….
peace, david
I can’t believe that so many still believe this is a forum for documentery and pj photography only. David has clearly time after time that it isn’t. And there are 10-12 finalists so why complain now? after only three… I have no problem with people complaining after all the finalists has been announced and maybe I even will do so myself..
About burn…
“Your interpretations may be either journalistic in nature or esoteric subjective pieces. I hold all artists in high regard. With me as editor/curator you need never think “what does he want or like?” I will push you to do your thing, not mine…”
DAH..
ok good,
and above all thanks for the energy you put in here and for some of your pictures which don’t leave me.
It’s probably easier to do subjective stuff these days be it art shit or photojournalist stuff……………….objective photojournalism is hard to find these days. Books are easy to do these days a great narrative that has real bite needs the money
I agree with Martin Brink. And told the same thing before on the discussion about the first EPF. The statement was clear, as repeated by Martin.
So, as to make this forum a way to deep and healthy criticism, it is better not to answer anymore to repeating criticism. I was dragged in myself to counter the hundred times repeated message, thinking to be able to open space here for good discussion. Stupid.
Maybe there should come another forum for healthy and indeep talking about photography Something like “philosophy” or…
And leave the rest for this one?
Martin, I know what Burn is, but are the goals of the EPF and Burn synonymous?
Maqroll, how exactly do you define “health criticism?” The phrase is used a lot here, but it seems to be defined as trying to say you don’t like the piece while surrounding that opinion with gushing praise for the work.
imants,
There’s not such a thing as “objective photojournalism”. Every time you press that shutter you make subjective choices. However I think I understand your reasoning anyway.
Jim,
Yes, of course they are. EPF is a grant from burn and I quote again..
“Your interpretations may be either journalistic in nature or esoteric subjective pieces. I hold all artists in high regard. With me as editor/curator you need never think “what does he want or like?” I will push you to do your thing, not mine…”
Nuff said..
JIM…
no , i do not come to the same conclusion as you on that score…i just wanted to show the best of the best..as simple as that Jim….i just cannot run a second rate photo-j story in favor of a really great subjective essay…i just cannot do it…i looked at a thousand entrants…i chose what i thought were the best ones no matter what “best” meant…my coffee table has all kinds of photography on it…my walls have many different styles….i really like and appreciate many different works…basically i like excellence in all things……photojournalism is really important..you know that i know that..but, it is not the ONLY THING in the world of visual communication…BURN was NEVER meant and never will be meant to be an outlet for photojournalism only….the jurors will be just as eclectic as my choices here…
ok, i must drive…can’t wait to get to Southland gas station restaurant…Carolina barbeque…damn, that and a chocolate malt…i keep meaning to do an essay on the folks who hang around Southland…i felt really good one day when i pulled in there with a borrowed Ford 150, but now i am driving down with Medford in a Toyota sedan which is almost illegal down there…
enjoy your holiday…
cheers, david
Hi David,
I’ve received an email confirming that I was not chosen as a finalist, but I was wondering whether it is still possible to have been included in the final 200?
I’m sorry if this question seems a bit dense, but I was slightly confused by something that you wrote earlier: “letters went to all but the final 200….” Does this mean that if you received a letter you will not be included in the final 200?
Hope to hear from you soon.
Best wishes,
Thaddeus.
Martin, the EPF is not a grant from Burn. Totally separate thing.
“objective photojournalism”………. well if we use subjective the word objective has a place
Every time you press that shutter you make subjective choices ……….. some just let it rip and make a choice after the event
Hi Imants,
You say that “some just let it rip and make a choice after the event”, but surely isn’t that a subjective choice?
imants..
i´m working on the road for the next 7 weeks.. around norway and balkans.. will remember though and next time i have an address, and if you still need it, i can order for delivery to norway and post on.
unless someone else here could pick up a copy of ¨storylines by frank¨ and post sooner?
DAH & magnetic wall lovers..
the magnetic wall is driving me to distraction today..
been staring at it for 6 hours.. and there are still 60 6 by 4´s when today i need 30-40..
photos of the wall on my blog later.. later.. it´s driving me nuts though.. really.
on an up-note DAH – a friend suggested combining ´decade´ and ´wasted´.. for the title ¨a wasted decade´ or ´a decade wasted´… and i quite like it for now.. will have a few sleeps on it.. wondering – it may be a little negative biased for the story – which is the whole world dancing to the same tune, as it were.. but then again.. perhaps the irony is well suited to the chaos..
and, or course, i was very.. very.. very wasted for more than the 10 years.
3 times very wasted.
now 4 times.
chips
davidx
Jim,
You’re right. However it’s heavily linked to burn and I think we can agree on that one.
ANd
objective / sujective phot journalism..
hmm..
i guess the photographers waiting outside downing street to catch the prime minister step in dog shit are doing so objectively.. and in other areas of ´hired eye´ and ´fact recording´ journalism people are doing the same.
generally though, i think subjectivity is unavoidably attached to PJ work in these knowing days..
i mean.. by way of example.-. some people still go to n. ireland to make it look like the war is still on.. and there is fighting.. yes.. but no more than in birmingham on a friday.. in which case – no matter how objective their ´troubles´ pictures appear, overall they must be working from a subjective viewpoint.
daaaaavid, (avoiding the magnetic wall, which is tearing the fillings from my infected jawbone)
AND
if you have 52.32 minuets to spare.. ANOTON.. why not join me on NYE 2007, at home with radiohead.. living in the past.. with my magnetic wall.. there is no avoiding it now.. must away..
thaddeus –
yes that is correct…. if you have recieved a letter you are not in the final 200
…sorry for the confusion on that point!
cheers
anton
Hey DAH, Say hello to Medford for me. I would love to sit down with him sometimes and hear more stories. His presentation at VNPA was excellent.
Drive safe!
David
Well… My commment IS and should be only a compliment to Simona.
It’ mean I love documentary photography and I wish to see as Strong and good documentary essay as Her. What will be difficult probably.
it’s mean that even documentary essay will have trouble to satisfy me as Simana’s did.
Even if it is not my cup of tea, or par of shoes.
But this is my mistake that I am not clear in what I write.
BTW I never know when you are lost your patience, and you are angry and when you write someting like that…
peace :) (friendly sign)
Martin
I hope your comment was not striglty to me because put Burn into documentary box is my last thought.
I love any kind of photography.
I understand any kind of photography.
But documentary I love most.
:)
David Alan H.
The hotel was probably Gran Hotel de Costa Rica. During the days of CIA and the Contras in Nicaragua, that was THE meeting place for both spies and Pj´s covering the struggle up in Nicaragua. It is still nice, it´s been refurbished actually. I shoot a LOT in the Plaza de la Cultura right beside it. It´s absolutely the heart of San Jose which is the heart of Costa Rica. You were probably in a beach town named Manzonillo on the Carribbean (?). Did the beach have black sand? And were some guys playing dominoes and others the banjo and makeshift instruments of undefined origen? well, *sigh* drug running has certainly gotten more serious and problematical in the last several years. Very serious. Very problematical. On both coasts and yes, the frontier with Panama is extremely flamable. Actually the towns on the southwest Pacific coast are now the places where you can ¨feel¨ the weirdness. i don´t know personally because i tend to be a city girl. But i have heard that the atmosphere down there is mmm..dysfunctional to say the least.
It´s the rainy season now so clearly a bad time for any kind of workshop but in December the summer starts. Let me know what you think..workshops are not something i know even one thing about.
And thanks for your response. I do not skype but have an 800 number on a computer line that you call from a regular telephone and it´s free for you. Let me know and i will give it to you.
Ok, best, all…
CIVILIAN and GRACIE
sorry, i was zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz last night..and now i am workinggggggggggggggggggggggg
love to you both!
ERICA
keep reading..let´s hear it for auto didacts!!!!!!
best to ALL
kat-
david b –
i’m there dude… totally there…
:ø)
haha – welcome home from japan my friend.. beate is out in 1 hour.. will feed tor capa and leave skype on if you´re free.
ALSO – is it me or has the ONE COMMENT RULE worked?
lots of new names i think..
great
d
@ david b
“A Decade Wasted” – love it!
@dah/kathleen
I loved my one visit to costa rica. A getwaway to CR for a week or so of shooting with someone who knows the local areas. heaven….
MARCIN,
No, not at all. Actually I haven’t read your comment. It wasn’t to a specific person. It was to all the people who doesn’t seem to understand what burn is about or simply have misunderstood it.
Anton…
If a “friend of mine” submitted more than one proposal for the EPF and he received only one letter, does that letter cover all proposals?
Thanks…
AFTERMATH
I almost added a PS,
but realized I would be breaking the rules:)
I also LOVE #17…
lots of stories in that one image…
**
david b –
mi skype es su skype
:o)
thodoris –
yes – cross check was done if someone (also) had an essay in the top 200. so if you received a letter, none of your multiple submissions are in the top 200.
we would have loved to be able to do reply on a “per essay” basis, but apparently that was technically not possible… and a reply “per person” was the only other acceptable alternative.
hope that answers your question,
anton
Anton…
Yes, it does answer my question…
Thanks again…
hello admin!
i’ve not received the email, that’s mean i am in the top 200… and not in the top 10?
sorry for the dull question…
SHOOT!!, i just wasted my one comment on the essay! I meant to post it over here! Oh Well, Live By the Sword, Die by the Sword.
Ki, please come over here to reply to my plea for more information.
joe..
hahahahahahah
hahahaha
haha
ha
h
OH – i just wet ’em.
all – EDITING PT. 15: the magnetic walls are creeping in…
http://www.bophoto.co.uk/blog/blog.htm
show me yours – i showed you mine..
:oO
ANTON the great..
top cat is playing up – it-s going to be difficult.. porridge and bed soon.. (for him, that is).
DOP IN POP..
i think there is a ‘wild card’ chance to still get into the top ten, since one of the snappers graciously stepped down.. i guess that’s right, in any case..
AKAKY: Do you skype?
AKAKY IRL: Do I what?
AKAKY: Do you skype?
AKAKY IRL: Not that I’m aware of. Do you skype?
AKAKY: No.
AKAKY IRL: Oh. [Pause]
AKAKY: [Pause]
AKAKY IRL: Was there something else?
AKAKY: No, that was it.
AKAKY IRL: Well, that was short, wasnt it?
AKAKY: Yes, it was.
AKAKY IRL: We must do this more often.
:o)
david b –
no worries mate – gotta run to a late nite meeting right now…
ps have some good news: ALL my yakuza images got the two thumbs up when i met the Soichiro last week to go through them. and I gave them lots of prints as well… ah yes yes… finally the slideshow-preparing and fund raising can begin :o)
want some porridge a an early night too – seems like bliss
top cat go!
TO ALL,
***Porridge, or porage, is a dish made by boiling oatmeal (rolled, crushed, or steel cut oats) or sometimes another cereal in water, milk, or both. It is usually served in a bowl or dish. Other grain meals boiled
Porridge was a traditional food in much of Northern Europe back to antiquity. As the traditional breakfast of Scotland it is made with salt.
I It was also commonly used as prison food for inmates in the UK’s prisons.
Hmmmmm….BEATE RUN back home … Davidb,Anton with his thighs and Soichiro wanna kick top cat OUT!!!
HAPPY MEMORIAL DAY YOU N. AMERICANOS !!!!!!
ENJOY your DAY …and don’t forget the polaroids.
For those who are not finalists …
I LOVE YOU SO MUCH !
I AM PROUD !
PLEASE KEEP SHOOTING
I WILL BE HERE WAITING FOR YOU !
THAT’S WHAT CIVILIANS DO BEST !!!!!!!!!!
Thanks for replying, David, yesterday. None of what you have done and chose, concerning the EPF is questionable. It makes perfect good sense.
I was just thinking a-loud, and reaching from the back of the class, that where the clowns, the dunce capped and “zero de conduite” reside, maybe a bit too loud …. :-)
On the new “Salgado”, understanding in public resonance not style, of course: this is a tough one to predict, to put a finger on. The accolade bestowed by the mark of time and final/durable public, not just professional, recognition is a very rarefied field (any art and many other disciplines). It is impossible to know who will have left her/his mark (not even Salgado maybe? And maybe a total unknown who found his/her Berenice Abbott?). IMO.
if you have not received a letter might you be in the top 10?
@david b
well, even if i’m not in top 10 that’s result is much more than i’m expecting. i will die happy… :)
but it is not clear if all the top 10 had received the letter yet
Davin Ellicson. The logic behind your comment under Simona’s EPF entry, totally escapes me. first I thought you were pestering after the fact that the reason to become a finalist was a foregone conclusion (like: “the profession has spoken already, thanks DAH but what’s the point?”), then in your last sentence you seem to tell us we should merely rubber stamp the judgement of the professional insiders, and have no opinion, no comment but theirs.
Maybe someone or some wrote the pictures were “not good”, i do not remember reading that, but that’s the only reason I’d understand you writing this.
As for liking, we can’t just be all alike. It could very well be that the profession finds a relevance in some work, of the kind that is not a preoccupation of people outside of it. Plus, the politicking that David mentionned when it comes to give out awards may have played in the awardings. Etc…
Actually, I don’t think that Davin understood that Simona won her recognitions with her documentary photography, not fine art.
Honestly, neither did I, Jim. i read the entry text last night, but mea culpa on my part: this morning, I only remembered she had been given this recognition, not for what work, when I commented. It changes very little, except that Simona comes up as an even more very impressive photographer.
Just made it to Venice Beach..
Question: what makes humans so attracted to crowd bathings?
Oats: A grain, which in England is generally given to horses, but in Scotland appears to support the people.
Or so says Dr. Johnson
Cathy Scholl (EPF post)
This work may not be my cup of tea but why should Simona or anyone other than myself care to know that?
————————————–
Oh, no, not again…… :-)
what makes you think, Cathy, we participate on BURN for the sake of the photographer reading what we write? Just an 8 letter word hint why we may do it: C O M M U N I T Y.
Herve, are you saying you are interested in whether or not I like Simone’s work? :))
What I should have said was that the more interesting comments (to me) are the ones where there is more than “I like this” or “I don’t like that.” The images have brought up some amazing conversations over the YEARS (!!!) we have been hanging out here which is a good thing but whether I like it or I don’t like it is not of great importance. Otherwise we could just have two boxes after each essay, yes and no and all vote :))
I’m not saying we shouldn’t give our opinions but rather that I like a more detailed explanation as to WHY we feel the way we do.
Okay?
“Question: what makes humans so attracted to crowd bathings”
Sexual energy and tension Panos. Acres of naked oiled up flesh.
Gordon,
Thanks for mentioning Suburbia. It’s on my wishlist.
Reminds me of the film Revolutionary Road…Winslet/DiCaprio the dark side of suburbia.
ALL,
Is someone compiling a book list? Could it be permanently featured on this site?
David said he would put a reading list here.
I just only now recieved a letter stating that I am not chosen as a finalist, but the letter states as well “However, many of you are in the top 200 essays that I would love to publish on Burn this year.”
Does that mean that I am in the 200 list or not? Sory, but I am not native English. It is confusing to me. Thanks.
Okay Cathy, but I think we should have another rule for the essays (EPF or not). All reproaches on how people respond belong to the DIALOGUE/BUZZ section. That too, we owe to the featured photographer, but also to all the readers.
There has been already 3 comments there that are not doing anything but criticizing writers. Akaky, Davin and yours.
For KAT FONSECA
The e-mail address that you left on my “uc” Pbase site, does not work. I tried to write you there, but got the “MAILER-DAEMON” message….
Well I guess that if we are not among the final 200, which are quite an amount of essays, our work it is not interesting for Burn statements, and thats dissapointing cause I find hard to change the way I feel photography. It would have been nice being envolved in this project that sounds so good,, for the rest of you that are still in , I wish you the best.
“… five coats of magnetic paint will do the job….only two coats and you will have magnets all over the floor …”
Now you tell me … laughing … okay, more paint.
manuel, Burn and the EPF are not the same, but I’ve expressed concern about this already. It seem to me that, after the 10 EPF finalists work is shown, David has enough other essays that were entered, including the 200, to monopolize Burn until the next EPF. I would hate for Burn to become nothing more than a showcase for those who entered the EPF.
Herve
Oh, really? must have done a typo..it doesn´t matter though..this was from the other day and well, you know how the internet is, time stops for no e-mail..
thanks anyway, Herve!
back to worski..aargh!
kat
Jim I cant see such a diference, since the works to be published in Burn are chosen by the same people that picked the EPF essays. So seems to me that all its gonna be about two o three people, most respectable by the way , deciding who is in who is not. Which is fair enough on other hand,,they set it up so they rule it ,,, it is their play as you said before… Wouldnt be beutiful let the Burn audience decide?? I think unfortunatly that migth be impossible as well
Herve
er..time waits for no e-mail…
whatever, haha..
I guess that in a way, the only thing unique about Burn as an internet magazine is that it is a reflection of the mind of one man and his vision – David Allen Harvey. If he doesn’t choose the photos and essays, then it might as well just be just another collection of web galleries.
But there is a limit to how much one working photographer can give to the magazine, and a real limit to how much work can be shown in the current format. Burn is new and different and hot right now. It’s the toy (and I don’t mean that in a negative sense) of a famous photographer. And because David has made a career of a certain kind of photography, I’m sure a lot of people who check the site out are a little baffled (good and bad) at what they find.
And I think the biggest wall is that this magazine is on the Internet, and the time David wants to give each photo or essay on the site, with the current format, is very limiting. Either those who submit their work are going to get tired of waiting for it to appear, or those who visit are going to get tired of waiting for new material, or perhaps a combination of both.
But, yes, the number of people picking the photos are going to be very limited. By necessity. How that plays out in the long run there is no way to predict.
Jim,
with “healthy criticism” I referred not to the works of others published here. I just proposed a new blog where we don’t talk about someones work here or about practical things, but about subjects like there were already mentionned, “Mirror and window”, or “What about earning money with essays about poor people?” or “What is documentary photography?”, etc.
This could be interesting as many of us deal with those questions.
Magroll, that would be interesting to me.
Jim,
I dont know if thats true about people getting tired. I can speak from both sides. When I was getting ready to have my essay publsihed here I did not get tired of waiting because DAH was very good in how involved he was with helping me edit and I knew when I would get published. As a viewer of Burn I also dont get tired of waiting because it really isnt a lot of time for the roll over of old and new material. 2-3 days isnt that much to wait. I didnt get a letter about being out of consideration so I assume Im in the 200, so its a bit of a nail biter to see if I will be in the top 10, but thats fun. And if I’m not, its not a big deal. I suppose that project I entered could also be criticized by you as not needing funding, but theres a LOT I could do with the money to help me drive the project forward, just as Simona. Just because it isnt PJ doesnt mean it can be done on the cheap.
Rafal, success is going to make the process longer and harder. Obviously with the EPF, he has at minimum a couple of hundred essays he finds outstanding right now. I don’t know how DAH is juggling everything. With plans for the gallery in NY, etc., at some point he is going to have to hold Burn in one hand and his own work in another and make a choice. Even Harvey isn’t a superman! ;)
I think he already said that next year there might not be an EPF. And as far as the gallery goes, let’s hope it works and pays for itself. I just think DAH has thinkgs cooking in the oven that will eventually make it possible to let Burn run on its own with less input from DAH himself. Financially and otherwise.
Hey all. Can someone explain this letter thing that is being discussed. I cant seem to follow the conversation by going back and looking at the older comments. What letters?
Thanks!
Well, if i had known you’d respond with sarcasm and off-handedness, Kat, I wouldn’t have bothered. I though it was the polite thing to do to let you know I rarely open my uc site, just saw your comments today and e-mail you right away, but to an apparently typo-ed address.
Maybe your Grande Dame of BURN new status allows you to wave people off with a tired wave of the hand.
haha, indeed…
Rafal
good luck!
best-
kat~
Herve
That was uncalled for.
This is the internet and i was trying to be funny, which you seem to have misinterpreted. My aopologies…the reason i asked for you to write was to clarify a post you made to me the other day. But i thought by now you’d have far more serious, interesting and important things to tend to. So i figured just let it go. And that’s why i also posted on your guest book “never mind”..because the moment had passed. I was just trying to make light of the whole thing here on Buzz.
You really have a wicked tongue for sarcasm, Herve. Maybe it takes one to know one, eh?
Best
kat~
Herve
I checked the address i left you in your guest book. I left out the “g” in “gmail”. I’m very sorry i wasted your time.
best
kat~
@ Pete M…
Regarding the letter….evidently there was a letter sent to those who entered the EPF that was sent to those who did not make the top 200 cut….so if you didn’t get a letter, and you enetered, you must be in the top 200.
Pete..
did you enter? if so, i wish you the vert, very best..i know this wait is torture..
Andrew B
Thanks for responding to Pete. i hope your wife’s fracture is healing well, you sounded a l-i-t-t-l-e frazzled yesterday. It’s tough being chief cook and bottle washer..smooth sailing ahead :))
hugs
kat
happy evening kat!
thank you for thinking of her…the fracture is healing well, she is able to do more each day….it’s funny the little things that bother you when you can’t do them, that become major events when you are able to do them once more….
frazzled is perhaps right….it’s not that either of us can’t cover for each other….but in this case, it was an extended period that I had to cover both jos…..my normal workweek plus hers…makes for long days indeed!
looking forward greatly to LOOK3 and some relaxing time before it….trying hard to get some balance in things….
hope good light has come and continues your way…
A.
Hi Andrew
Yes, i know, i know. It’s very hard to take time away from job and family to do something so important to you, so dear to your heart. But you know, from my experience, the harder it is to do something the more you enjoy it..you savor every moment because it was such a struggle to get that time. I am just really happy the fracture happened when it did (if it had to happen at all) and not the day you were supposed to leave or something. Look3 will be your reward for job well done!!!! I hope you have the time of your life and more important? That you get so charged up about photography and what you’re doing that it lasts you until Look4!!! Tell your wife we all wish her well and thank her for us for being so cool about you going to Look3!
eeks..i assume you’re going alone (?)..if not my apologies and i hope you BOTH have a great time!
xo
Kat~
Jim said, “Even Harvey isn’t a superman! ;)”
No, but you’d be surprised … he has more energy and ideas poring forth than just about anyone I’ve ever met, of any age. I remember him saying to us in New York during the Burn jam session, “Damn, people hate it when I do this.” We all looked at him and he said, “I got my second wind.” It was 4 a.m.
Young Tom
haha, thanks..i need some of that energy right now as i “burn” through a stack of photos..man, you’d think DAH would at least package it and sell it by the gram, huh? I’m sure a little would go a long, long way!
GRACIEeeeeee..
i am eating ice cream alone..cherry to be exact..but i’m thinking of you with every spoonful!
CIVILIAN
missing your witticisms tonight..the late shift is snooozing…did you get stuck to your magnetic wall?
Is it a sign of courage or stupidity to admit mistakes?? Well….. on a lighter side. Someone VERY close to me just got their first 3 rolls of Holga negs back. Wanted to shoot square so had taken the 645 mask out, and promptly put it back in again by mistake without noticing.
Well of course I would NEVER do something so stupid, but have got 3 rolls of 645 negs back instead of square. As Homer would say DOOOH….
Have fun everyone (at my expense if you like…)
Ross
You know what they say about cameras..if at first you don’t succeed, sell the goddamned thing.
*wink*
but maybe you have some cool shots in there..not what you had in mind maybe, but something to justify alll that film (?)
i know, boo-hoo!
Kat;
A couple of ok shots, more by luck than good management! Nothing spectacular though. But while I was shooting I was stopped by someone who recognised the Holga and wanted to talk about them. Now that has never happenned with the digi!!
But I am getting the hang of its framing, and it’s so much fun to shoot. I’m going to use it this weekend shooting at the underground indie music bar. A bit more experimentation.
There you go then, Ross! The first 3 rolls were a practice run..makes you take the Holga even LESS seriously now that it’s made a total fool out of you, hehe…the worst has already happened! now you can just laugh and play..so do it..i hope you enjoy the experience!
goodnight!
kat
“now that it’s made a total fool out of you” I can normally do that pretty well on my own! I’m already planning to get another, one for B&W the other colour.
you make me want to shoot with mine again–except it’s so expensive now, the film, the processing, and the scanning time..i’ll stick with my Yashicamat 124G..let me know when you upload some of your holga shots, ok?
ok, time to zzzzz
best, Ross!
kat~
No worries, have a good night.
Cheers Ross
TO ALL,
as I am going through the posts ( cruising through the posts:)) LOOK what I found:
New BURNian MARQOLL have a beautiful idea and old BURNian JIM agrees :We need a new blog to discuss photostuff…e.t.c…
Dear BURN magazine,
when and if you have 2min please you might have to consider the following suggestions :
1~~~~~~~ blog : philosophical questions (windows and mirrors)grainy,fuzzy,technical, equipment,art and photojournalism,pj’s and …
2~~~~~~~~blog : birthdays, deaths,congratulations,love affairs, nude bathings,Spas, pijama parties
friends killing friends,recipes, ouzo-whiskey-beer talking and feta cheese…trauma center
3~~~~~~~blog : Emerging Photographer Fund – Finalists ,we already have it discuss the ongoing EPF
4~~~~~~~blog : dedicated to the Whatever ESSAY is on the Wall …ONE POST ONLY !
I KNOW one THING for sure:
THAT I LOVE YOU ALL
AKAKY;
since when a dyslexic Civilian is going through the posts…oups!
TOM YOUNG THANK YOU,
for the insight:young tom
“… DAH has more energy and ideas poring forth than just about anyone I’ve ever met, of any age. I remember him saying to us in New York during the Burn jam session, “Damn, people hate it when I do this.” We all looked at him and he said, “I GOT MY SECOND WIND” It was 4 a.m.
FOR THE International readers
*** second wind :to get a second burst of energy after the initial burst
example.. when your ripping a fart, you think you’re done, but you’re not… more comes out .
LOVE YOU ALL !!!!!
magnetic wall keep going …KATIE YOU ROCK …BURN like FIRE …BURN LIKE KATIE
WE CAN NOT BE STOPPED …I am happy again
Thank you Gordon Lafleur,
“Question: what makes humans so attracted to crowd bathings”
Sexual energy and tension Panos. Acres of naked oiled up flesh.”
FOCUS PANOS, …Sexual energy and tension…
LIFE is BEAUTIFUL !
Thank you Paul O’Mara
You wrote:
“… Burn: Expect the unexpected…”
HOLGA shots on Ross !!!
VIVA SWORD TONGUES !!!
DAVID ALAN HARVEY THANK YOU !!!
TO ALL,
PJ Harvey – To bring you my love
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P92M5s3MMto
Harvey and Harvey (not related:)))
Jim
Yes I guess you are rigth and definetly the point about Burn is having a photographer like David Alan Harvey envolved and commit to this project . I think I problaby got frustated by not getting any recognition about my essay, I would have love to know the reasons, Its not that I think I deserve it, but I guess its more about Knowing in what point one work is. So I thought Burn was more like a dialogue between photographers with the plus of having feedbacks from DAH, but once again I guess It wouldnt be possible everybody taking part in it.
Manuel, I think you have a valid point. David seems to want to celebrate all photography, as though it all has equal value (and if I’m reading this wrong, I’m sure David will tell me ;). Which is fine. It’s his bully pulpit.
But I fundamentally disagree with the idea that all photography is even important, much less of equal value. I think a continuing story on the desertification of China is far more important and worthy of funding than a brooding, introspective look at an individual’s childhood fantasies. And because, in the end, it becomes an either/or equation for limited funding, clearly one is more worthy of funding then the other, IMHO.
I agree with you in that point, besides for me in my modest opinion the Simona issues fails, cause it didnt take me to any particular place of my own childhood memories, and after all what is photography but a way of transmiting or provoke feelings throughout images unlike literature which can be more racional.Maybe it did good to her in order to take out her own demons but for me as a viewer just let me more or less cold, despite its got some beauty images didnt tell me much. But when I got into Burn I was more concern about getting feedbacks than about the prize itself.And once again I agree that the money should go to someone who need it to pursuit his / her project and wouldnt have a chance other way, and of course such a project should have a massive audience interest, IMHO.
For an instance I just saw the Sean Gallaguer picture ” Desert Storm” and I found it far more evoking, with its simplicity it made me feel a lot.And the picture can be a whole storie within itself. But once again this is quite subjective.
If you are looking for something to be brave about consider fine arts.
– Robert Frost
MANUEL…
let me go back and look at your essay….and i will get back to you in just a few minutes….obviously everyone who does not get the grant will feel the same as you…i have gotten some grants and not gotten others, so i know how you feel…honestly there was so much good work submitted i immediately thought that it is too bad i do not have 25 grants to give…if i could i would….anyway, hold tight and i will go re-visit your work…
JIM…
yes, this a fundamental split between us….you well know how much value i put on journalistic photography…most of my career has been as a documentary photographer….but, my background also includes my undergrad study in art history and i never never felt the mass media were able to use photography to its fullest potential….so i quite simply put value on many kinds of work…one of the reasons i loved Magnum as a teenager was that it was the only group of photographers who had their work in the press and simultaneously on the walls at the Tate and Biblioteque Nacional and MOMA…i have work in permanent museum collections AND in newspapers and magazines…i just do not see the line of demarcation quite the way you do….
the work i will present here, again from work submitted, will indeed represent all of my tastes..BUT, i am not choosing the grantee….the jury will…most of the folks i know is this craft, art, business, do not find themselves quite as separated as do you from one genre to another..please remember, there are grants which celebrate only one kind of photography or another, just not this one….the generous donors who have decided that i should be the one to help distribute funds to young photographers have not issued a complaint as have you….as a matter of fact, they are contributing more as we speak….
also remember , you have not even seen everything yet…there has been no judging yet….isn’t a bit premature for you to decide what has and what has not happened with the EPF????
cheers, david
MANUEL…
you asked, so i will tell..i always give a straight up critique…..
ok, i just looked up your essay “Georgia Colors”….here is my opinion..first there is nothing “wrong” with this essay…and you gave me a nice tight edit of 13 pictures….this essay could easily be published in most current periodicals….so i do not dislike your work and i see what you were going for …but, i felt that out of the 13 pictures you submitted you only had perhaps three or four compelling images in there..the rest were “supporting images” with no real strength on their own…it just did not a complete strong essay make compared to the other essays i was seeing…
your work is pretty straightforward Manuel, and i doubt this work would be chosen by anyone as a body of work to be given a grant…you will have to become much more engaged with your subject, inject much more of your own vision, to survive in today’s world of photography…that is just the pure honest truth….of course, you should show your work to others, but i honestly feel any editor or curator today will tell you the same thing or close to it…
why do you not skype me?? davidalanharvey we can go over it all by phone if you so choose…you definitely have potential to push beyond where you are as a pure image maker…you can take this opinion and simply say “to hell with it”…or you can take this and grow….i will help you if i can or i can recommend others you may prefer as a mentor….
i do thank you for submitting…and i do think we should publish at least one of your better singles on Burn from this essay…
cheers, david
David, I suspect the grant will finally go to documentary work. Just chatting with Manuel philosophically about what ends up on Burn. But I do believe that some kinds of photography are more worthy of funding then others, given the limited resources available to fund such projects.
Erica
Love your Frost quote.
Arts and culture define us, yet seldom get the respect, or the funding they should.
ALL…
Jenn Ackerman just contacted me and will soon respond to your comments under her essay “Trapped”….check it out…
i smell a sabotage.
DAH
Just a gentile reminder about the book. I know you are busy and you mentioned you may be leaving for a trip. I probably need to send it out by Thursday to be safe so I can them at LOOK.
Thanks!
OIME!
1000 essayists to Skype.. OIME. I got the tickets for Fiji though…just in case..:)
AndrewB LOOK3 Is Yours. Our love to your wife. Περαστικα.
Lee Guthrie, Jeremy,JamesC,Ana, Annie, Christina,Pete, DaviidMG, MikeR (storyteller)
where are you ALLLLLLL….?
Lassal we send you blood but it seems we need NEW BLOOD here !!!
P.S Plato call Socrates, say I love you …
PLEASE, no NEED to reply…I know…
PETE…
it is only tuesday…
JOE…
???
DAH, not worth explaining and nothing to do with you, i’ll just hold my breath for now.
Anyway, if Civillian can lay down five new cryptic comments for every post, i can have a single one every month or so ;-)
DAH
GRINNING… but it feels like thursday without the benefit of friday being the next day!
DAH
I keep wanting to ask you this, but then I keep hearing “That would be telling” as an answer,
from the 1967 UK tv series The Prisoner:
Number 6: Where am I?
Number 2: In the Village.
Number 6: What do you want?
Number 2: Information.
Number 6: Whose side are you on?
Number 2: That would be telling. We want information… information… information.
Number 6: You won’t get it.
Number 2: By hook or by crook, we will.
Number 6: Who are you?
Number 2: The new Number Two.
Number 6: Who is Number One?
Number 2: You are Number Six.
Number 6: I am not a number! I am a free man!
Number 2: [laughs]
Still, the question..is there a plan to send letter to the 200 to let them know anything additional? Have all finalists heard that they are finalists? Ignore if you must :(
**************************************************************************************************
Gordon et al
and there need be no exclusion of documentary work in fine art..to my eyes that is what DAH is making all the time..
JIM…
please spell my name correctly…you are a news editor and a stickler for accuracy!!!!
as far as quantity of content and how often it shows up on BURN, please just go look at any online magazine and see how much we publish here in comparison…Anton and i are now working on a minute and half movie to be shown at Look3 , basically the “best of BURN”…i think you will be quite surprised at what all has been published the last four months……who is publishing more content than us??? what small time online magazine updates as much as do we??
besides , at your very own suggestion we have to be very careful about what we publish regarding the credibility of the content….that has slowed us down a little perhaps, but mostly i just wanted to give the finalists there due….i could update 5 times a day with the content coming to me….be patient my man, be patient….
cheers, david
THANK YOU JOE!!!
I will hold my breath from now on.
Well, WTF…I am a Civilian after all and I will stand my ground.
LOVE TO ALLLLL
P.S Hmmm…Another sword tongue…At least you smiled ;—(
ERICA…
yes, we are within a few hours of being ready to do this…we got hung up when one of the finalists dropped out…we had to then go back over all 200 of course….in the course of doing this process we considered adding two more finalists, but i think we will just keep it to ten ….the jurors simple do not want more than 10….i am telling you there are many many strong essays in the 200…quite overwhelming actually….so sorry for the delay…the “dropout” really threw us off….
cheers, david
CIVI
yeah … got the blood – thanx so so much! Saved me mine.
:-))))))
After 2 weeks away it seems that my desk is about to crash under the weight of a screaming mob of papers that is wavering it’s fists at me. Scary sight. With one eye I am trying to sort the deadly issues out (like taxes), while trying to catch up with BURN with the other one … Looks fairly stupid.
Also I got an amazing new collection of books – including “Mirrors and Windows” :))))))))), that arrived while I was in Romania and … I just cannot resist opening them … Guess I was just away too long from something good to read.
One thing I can say already: the one comment strategy beneath the submissions seems to do the job. Thanks Jim (and Bob)!
DAH
will you put up the LOOK3 presentation up here too? Please?!? Maybe after LOOK3? I would just love to be able to see it too …
DAH, JIM
Why do you two always bog yourselves down in the same old, same old *low scream* SAME OLD?! You two have this totally dysfunctional relationship. Jim pushes David´s buttons to make him stay here and pay attention to him. David is suitably provoked and feels he must explain and defend so stays and pays attention to Jim. The few months i am here it´s Jim demanding explanations from David and David providing them. Jim, why can´t you just accept DAH´s vision of Burn, and DAH, why can´t you just blow off these mind-numbing challenges to this vision? Neither one of you EVER gets tired of this? My parents would say, go back out in the shed if you want to continue this discussion.
Well, i will probably hate myself in the morning for this post and since it IS the morning then i think i will just shrink off into the sunlight.
best to you both but…but…more stuff like the W. Eugene Smith discussion, puhleeeze..your captive audience would be ever soooo grateful!
kat
MY APOLOGIES TO ALL,
I promise I won’t do it again
LASSAL,
I am out of posts…
Welcome back
LOVE
Thanks bunches DAH..
I can only imagine how overwhelming and I did suspect that the quality of what you are looking at is formidable..and we all are in your gratitude for going back over everything with such great attention..the delay is understandable completely..was just trying to get a grasp on where things stood..thank you for the clarification.
I know you don’t have much time / attention for tv, but if you are ever stormed in or something, do check out The Prisoner if you haven’t already seen it..it is considered tv’s first masterpiece..
YES, FINALLY this CIVILIAN IS OUT!!!
“more stuff like the W. Eugene Smith discussion”
Katie
pssss…love
KATHLEEN…
laughing…yes, of course you are basically correct….if you read carefully, i only answer Jim when he asks questions i think others may also have in the back of their mind..
also, the nature of the running commentary here is odd in the sense that YOU and I assume that everyone who logs on today, read stuff from the day before or the month before…new folks check in everyday necessitating sort of a constant update of information that is old to US, but new to THEM…we may have all of this in our heads, but new people coming in have no clue…i must say it does create an awkwardness, but i just cannot figure out a way around it..one of the many vagaries of the net…
another thing is this…Jim simply asks questions…very few others do…i read very few comments that stimulate me to jump in..most are all inclusive and my only response is: ok good….if Jim takes over it is because he is provocative…
if someone else wants to be provocative or ask a really good question, i am all over it…i think i answer all questions asked of me allowing of course for some that i simply miss…go back and look at this morning’s questions…did i not answer everyone???
see, you have just been provocative and here i am!!!
abrazos, david
ERICA..
i already wrote a note to myself to check it out…thanks
KAT, DAH …
maybe BURN needs a section for “Frequently Asked Questions” (FAQ)
:))))))))))
In fact I thought this over and over when I saw the comments on the EPF section. People do not seem to want to bother to read what has already been written. If you go through that post, you will see the same questions (and answers) over and over …
Kathleen, look at the responses to Aftermath. You don’t think my wonderings are on point?
DAH …
We wrote simultaneously.
:-)
David, hereafter, to avoid misspelling your name, I’ll simply use DAH. ;)
KAT
There will be a new book out this fall about Eugene Smith’s time at 821 Avenue of the Americas in 1957, when he left “behind a family in Westchester and a job with Life magazine, where he had perfected the photo-essay form.”
I read the story first in an old copy of Aperture magazine, a beautiful spread with lots of great images of the jazz loft, the story is amazing..a summary
“From 1957 to 1965, W. Eugene Smith—one of the masters of twentieth-century photography—lived in a loft building in New York City’s wholesale flower district that was the site of famous after-hours jazz jam sessions. During his eight years there he took forty thousand pictures (the largest body of work in his career), photographing the nocturnal jazz scene as well as life on Sixth Avenue outside his window. Now, two hundred of these extraordinary, never-before-seen photographs have been gathered together. An extraordinary portrait of the underground world of jazz in 1960s New York and the extraordinary photographer who captured it all.”
As powerful as the photos is the story of how he lived and worked at the loft, consumed as per his norm, sleeping little and obsessed, but in this story he seems to be fully alive and driven by the music in a positive way..he also wired the loft gathered hours and hours of recordings..talk about a MM piece waiting to happen..
LASSAL…
good constructive idea….let me see if we can do this …i also planned on doing a post at the end describing the whole process of selection and evaluation….both of these should help…thanks…
cheers, david
JIM
you know i was just teasing….but, shhhhhhhhh…let’s take this to the woodshed
Civilian, i smiled And ‘Winked’, if you were a Real Civilian you would know that teasing is how civilians flirt with each other.. Hellllooo!
Anway, if you’re ‘realllly’ offering ‘stuff’ Civilian, i’d settle for some restraint with the cap-locks, i’ve already gotten used to seeing a column of Civilian posts when i arrive at the home page at the cost of missing someone that made a single post appearance ;-) but the constant shouting! Is it really necessary?, Wait! is it really Civil!?, we’re standing right next to you Civilian!
After that, if you’re still in the giving mood Civilian, can you also leave a few more hints every now and then as to what the heck you are talking about!? For example, i still can’t figure out what the porridge comment was about, i really tried, and when i don’t get it i feel stupid, you don’t want me to feel stupid do you Civilian? Maybe you do! ;-)
ERICA…
i am anxious to see this Smith jazz work….i may have told you that i had an opportunity to print for Smith back in 1966, but just couldn’t do it…he was in New York, and i had a wife and new baby while i was in grad school in Missouri…i just could not make the jump…..over the years i have tried to meet every single legend that is a legend in my mind…but, i did not meet Smith..too bad…just circumstantial…my best friend Medford however did meet Smith at a workshop and told me later that i was better off just knowing the work….
before Henri died he was very concerned with what would happen to his work after he was gone….he tried so so hard to make sure that there could be no mis-use….or misrepresentation…Koudelka worries about this all the time about his own work and was apoplectic at the most recent HCB exhibit at ICP (i wrote about meeting an upset Koudelka on the streets of NY in Road Trips)…in other words, would some photographers turn in their grave if they saw what was being done with their work, their outtakes, now??? Smith never saw Pittsburg, PJG never saw his retrospective….an interesting concept about how to control your work after you are no longer around to control it…
cheers, david
I shouldn’t get involved …
but I can’t help it..laughing…
Hey CIVI ,
Don’t let them bully you or scare you
or put u in the corner…
Not your fault if they don’t get it…
But then again what do u expect from
Trolls with names as ACNE???
Jealousy and white Acne style hate..
Civi ignore them..
Don’t apologize to them.. They don’t appreciate
the bright day… They only see darkness, smoke
pain and sabotage!!!!??
ACNE !!!?? Acne.. ? someone had traumatic teenage years..
sorry..
again Civi…
Their pain isn’t your fault.. They can send you as
much advice as they wish but don’t change the way u write coZ
then they’ll hate u even more.. than they do now!
..laughing….
DAH
I already think about it on a small scale for myself..sometimes I toss negs in the trash for this reason, just in case; but I can imagine it would be a sizable concern for anyone who knows there work WILL be reprinted after they are gone..
the link to the book to be : http://www.amazon.com/Jazz-Loft-Project-Photographs-1957-1965/dp/0307267091#productPromotions
I lent my copy of Aperture with Smith’s jazz work to Andrew Sullivan, but if you haven’t seen it yet I should ask him to bring it LOOK..I was very moved by the text..it certainly would have been an adventure to print for Smith..you and i still have a date I hope to meet Frank, like you I fell it is important to meet these legends. I liken it a little to what spiritual masters often say about the relevance of the aspirant to spend as much time as is possible in the presence of the teacher, partly because it is grace to have the opportunity at all, and one does not ignore grace, but also because one’s own self is ‘upped’ a bit just by being in the same energetic space..
FAQ( frequently asked questions )
Great idea Lassal…
and about Jim’s “success”???
I agree with DAH..
jim is the only one around lately that asks
questions…most, still trying hard to show
how finished, closed and intellectual their
comments are..
No wonder Jim took over.. Jim is NOT a hypocrite..
:)
If i could spend a week camping at Walden Pond with any photographer that ever walked the earth, it would have to be Eugene Smith.
i really think he was on to something with regards to taking still-images to the next level; as if they could be some kind of serendipity-cerium to move mankind along.
unfortunately i think that mankind could not give him the dose of serendipity he was looking for to create the quantum leap he wished to deliver and ‘he’ and ‘we’ were left without the unified field theory of images he was hoping to deliver.
i’m really looking forward to the new information coming out to collect more information on his ideas.
Cheers for the links and news.
Also, Civillian, i’m not being mean, i’m teasing! Hello!
Panos, you behave, you’re getting in the way of some Burn-member-bonding.
erica:
about meeting ‘teachers’….or better ‘legends’…i would say it is MUCH MORE (sorry for the shouting) important to be with people who grant grace, are beamed with grace, and that aint at all about legends……the legend shit, that’d be our hangup….not the teachers….right?…i love Frank so much that I feel, all he’s been assailed by, that it would be not graceful to seek a meeting….teachers commune with students, not lead…
and here’s a little buddhist-russian question, from a Tolstoy story…
an empereor once ask for wisdom and saught the person who could answer these 3 questions:
1) When is the most important time to do something?
2) Who is the most important person with whom to do something?
3) What is the most important thing to do?
my 1/day comment..
running
bob
Joe ;))…
“If i could spend a week camping at Walden Pond..”…that’s an easy one:
can i say 2 names: marina and dima…
hugs
running
b
Nice out-of-context lift-out Bob;))..next time feel free to keep the sentence intact:
with any photographer that ever walked the earth.
i think with the sentence intact you will find it more difficult to suggest you’re a better family many! Indeed Bob!;))
What’s put you in this sudden below-the-belt mood Bob? Have you lost interest in meeting anyone new and exciting? Or do you just feel guilty that you’ve not been the family man you should have been recently and now you’re over-compensating? You’re definitely under one of your mood swings, no? :-(
Sorry Joe, Bob still has you..both Marina and Dima are photographers :))
JOE you are DA MAN,
and I thought we have moved way over… the Burn-member-bonding…:)
JOE FOCUS,FOCUS …caps off:)))) i try to help the international civilians/ ESL/Hello
anton
May 25, 2009 at 12:20 pm
david b –
no worries mate – gotta run to a late nite meeting right now …
want some porridge***** a an early night too …
WHERE is STUPID by the way ? I really miss him!!! STUPIDDDDDD or stoop !!!!
PANOS if you only knew…OIME , my mate…
Next time please don’t get involved :)…I have KATIE my sword tongue and My Gracie and Davidb…and…
Thanks, you look like Venice :)
LASSAL,
I see the blood helped you out:))
P.S ACMA is me …FOCUS BURNIANS focus
LOVE FOREVER YOU ARE IN MY HEART AND I WILL SEE YOU ALLLLLLL
ACMA is ME
I LOVE YOU
I WILL BE BACK
Ouch!
Can someone pass me some salt!? I’ll just be right over here trying to figure out If I should eat this foot that’s suddenly landed in my mouth or just knaw on it for a while!
Sorry Bob!
Joe, Civi…
Sorry.. I promise to behave and I should stay out of
the Burn members bonding…!!!
:))))))
Love y’all..
Big hug from the cloudy Los Angeles..:(
BOB
maybe I should not say this here now because the words have not formed yet in my mind. And I have not digested it all … But … I just returned from an Antonin Kratochvil workshop. And in very many senses he seems to choose to be the opposite of DAH. “Grace” would certainly not be the right terminology … at least not in the usual way. Nonetheless I found “grace” in an unusual way, after quite some digging work and ignoring the pits he like to put in peoples ways. So, what I want to say it that the “grace” I look for is not always on the surface.
I mean … seriously … why do I go to workshops? It is not so much to learn about photography. Well it also is about that, of course, but indirectly. Directly it is about the single photographer who is doing the show. I see the photographs … and if they touch me, then I want to meet the person behind them. I want to check if that what I see corresponds to the person, what kind of person is necessary to do this work and … how it happened that this person became this way. It is different to witness it than to read about it. Very different. It is some kind of immens curiosity that grows in me and that gets stronger with every image I see of that person that goes under my skin. It is hard for me to admit that it happenes extremely (!) seldom. I know it probably sounds pretty arrogant and that is not what I want to say with it. I do not know why it happens that seldome … but it is not confined to a specific type of photography … and type of person.
Hmmm … I knew I would loose my path here … Hmmm … I think it is the Walden Pond … It is not about taking anybody there, I think, but much more to go to someone wherever this person (teacher, legend, whatever) feels at home and to try to understand him/her there. I guess to the Walden Pond I would go … alone.
And I truly do not think a person does have to be obviously wise or graceful in the common understanding of the words, to teach you something. Sometimes it is us ourselves who have to bring the grace (or whatever else) we want into the equation. And … sometimes we simply have to try to be better students and see between the lines. I think we actively have to look for what there is to be found rather than to sit there with open hands and expect someone to give it to us in perfectly cut out pieces …
Bob, please sorry, I think you meant your comment in a different way, but it just is something I was thinking about anyway. I could easily have dissed Antonin for the “show” he was giving us, but … I would have lost so much by doing so … And I would have missed to see a wonderful person. I guess I just wanted to say that sometimes things require a little more work from our own side … And there is a lot of possibilities to “transform” pieces of the puzzle, so it fits into your picture.
Even shorter: the responsibility of learning is ours – and the responsability of what we do with it too.
love,
Lassal
an interesting concept about how to control your work after you are no longer around to control it…
———————————-
Good morning all.
Can’t read all that has been written since yesterday, sticking to… “Noblesse Oblige” ;-), David’s last comment. Maybe our female mebers may have something to say, I would like to hear their opinions on widows carrying the mantle of their deceased genius hubbie selflessly.
Anyway, David and all, aren’t widows (daughters and sons too, close friend ) often the “key” to holding up in the best manner, the vision, the last words, the archives, the rights, and of course the body of work of a renowned artist (not sure what happened with HCB in ICP, since he does have a window closely associated to his legacy).
Anyway, short of having this type of devotion to an artists and her/his life work, I’d be interested to hear how the correct management of a legacy, not just the archives, but all kind of upholding the “wishes” and memory of the defunct, has/can been carried over satisfactorily to the memory of a great artist.
PS: Not meant to scare you, David, BTW. Not to worry, I am sure we can find you a good widow, here on BURN…. :-) lest you bury us all, that is… :-(
Back later.
“And I truly do not think a person does have to be obviously wise or graceful in the common understanding of the words, to teach you something. Sometimes it is us ourselves who have to bring the grace (or whatever else) we want into the equation”
I love this sentiment, did you just make this up Lassal?
If we waited around to collect wisdom from only nice people we would be in a world of darkness! Ironically I find the people most dissatisfied with life are the ones that know the most about it!
Interesting, I’ve always felt it was ‘humility’ that gave you the keys to the mentor-castle, something i find in my over-confident state to be insincere to assume, but in fact it’s not the ‘exact’ approach to befriend a teacher, it really is ‘Grace’.
And then you have DAH, the more brash his audience, the more ‘kind’ he is, he’s weird isn’t he? ;-) Then again, in one word i think DAH has pleaded for a bit of ‘grace’ ever now and then!
Geez … I spent “6 comments” writing mine …
Joe, right, you brought in the Walden Pond. I’ve always wanted to go there, since I saw a picture of it and the hut …
But really … I never imagined to go there with someone else but by myself. :-)
Of course I get your thought. So to answer your question: I’d like to go with Salgado on one of his trips and watch him work for as long as possible.
I kind of come from Brazil like he does. I studied economics like he did and … in a lot of ways I feel like I assume he does. It was one of his speeches on YouTube, held in Portuguese for a couple of students, that made me not sleep for 3 days last year in a feverish agony … as if things had fallen into place. These words clearly changed my life, as did DAH’s call last summer to ask me to go to his workshop. Before these two things I was not looking at photography as an alternative of communication for me.
Back to Salgado: I would love to learn more about his hope and optimism, that I unfortunately cannot share despite really wanting to. I would love to learn to see his guiding light myself, and I would absolutely love to see his project TERRA. So it is more about the person and motivation here and the photographs at this moment are merely a path that lead to this. I want to see how he embeds the contend of his message in his person. See?
I would probably never be able to take pictures as he does. And to be sincere … I would never even want to try. There the differences between us clearly kick in. Despite of all similarities, that I feel the urge to confirm, I am a totally different person with a completely different language than he. But it is like hearing a beloved voice sing a song that you think you know from a long forgotten past …
Hard to explain.
JOE
“I love this sentiment, did you just make this up Lassal?”
Well, that is just the way I see it.
“Ironically I find the people most dissatisfied with life are the ones that know the most about it!”
Somewhere on the road is a fork. With the same amount of knowledge about life you can end up being very satisfied. I think that is where true wisdom cicks in. And … to be sincere to you Joe, sometimes I am afraid of missing the turn …
As to humility … well you have to be humble to be able to recognize your lessons. Is that not so?
HERVE
“Maybe our female mebers may have something to say, I would like to hear their opinions on widows carrying the mantle of their deceased genius hubbie selflessly.”
I think it is simply their very own decision. And I think this decision is taken long before that.
Walden Pond..I go there from time to time with my best girlfriend, we swim and we talk and laugh, we try to get away from all the others doing the same..going with a photographer, maybe Martin Parr, to watch him photograph all the tourists :)) Sadly, it really isn’t Thoreau’s Walden anymore.
Lassal..
glad you met AK…you seem pleased with the experience
Did I manage to put everybody to sleep now???
Sorry for that. :-(
Joe:
im totally NOT in the sour mood…quite the opposite…and as erica pointed out, marina and dima are the 2 photographres who’d i’d most want to spend time with, anywhere, especially Walden pond…incidentally, you’ll see Marina’s stuff eventually :))
and by the way, if there’s one thing i never have to compensate for, it’s the time i spend with my family…they trump everything and everyone….ask Harvey…but, i wont require you to suck on some salt, it’s not healthy ;))))…and i still dig you anyway, dont worry :))
Erica :))…and by the way, my questions to you were with love, following up on your questions to DAH :))…that story says all there is to say about Teachers :))))…
Lassal: what i meant is, above all, those 3 questions and the answers to them…and grace for me is a very simple thing…has nothing to do at all with the things we wrap around others, but something simpler……i’ll leave it at that for now, but will say this about grace: it inhabits all of us and all those, especially those in front of us, rather than that which we seek….
hugs
running
b
ERICA
:-))
I had to think of you. You, the master of minutious descriptions gave me a very dry bread when I asked about AK before I left for Romania. In a way I saw this as a warning sign. And … Well yes, AK is a lot of work :-)) But I found it very rewarding to try to understand him. And I learned some new curses too …
BOB
So we are on the same page as to grace … that is nice. Maybe it is because I am dependant on my narrow dictionary for these definitions.
But I should have known … You are a buddhist after all.
ERICA
Walden Pond became a tourist attraction now?
oh nooooo ….
I will stick to the picture I have of it instead. In a dark black&white: So quiet and solitary …
Bob..understood :)
Lassal..yes, sorry :(
i sort of think Walden Pond is more of a concept now than a real space, sure it’s pretty, it’s also pretty infected with people looking for the magic that took place there for a period of time, but something about that space was different back then.
i always wanted to write an essay to Burn about This, but it seems this might be as good as time as any to introduce it.
Does anyone see the parallels?
Joe, did ypu know that Platon has a Salon?
http://popphoto2006.popphoto.com/photographynewswire/3883/platons-salon.html
Joe …
:)))
When will you be ready to let us read it?
OIME!
Did you see???
there is another photographer … he calls himself PLATON …oime…
Shall I contact him?
He has to reconsider …there is only one PLATO…( our Plato!!! )
Well, maybe we can let him keep his name ( he might be Greek, who knows)
and we have DAH there is no other DAH in the world…
P.S 7th post …now I can go …Joe…I am going…I am gone Joe:)))))
LOVE ! DON’T blink
Sometimes this thread is just surreal. I see Civilian sitting at his computer, wearing a pie tin on his head and facing east. Mama told me not to come. ;)
ok, all, here is a link to the Tolstoy story….a la Platon salon ;))
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Three_Questions
and the story:
http://www.story-lovers.com/liststhreequestions.html
running away for a while now…
bb
Thank you very much David , that was exactly what I was looking forward to… And on top of it I can see that you are rigth, and for me ,your opinion ,honestly, its been deeply contructive and I think it will help me out a lot… I have got to go now Im in the middel of a trip but let me tell you again that Im looking forward to get as much advice as you can give me in this matter.
Maybe it takes one to know one, eh?
———————————
Sure do, Kat! But nothing arrogant like when I was 17, and much more french, of course. I knew everything then…or if in french: I knew everything zen.
I remeber your question, sorry, I forgot with all that went around jenn’s EPF work. Yes, I just meant that being very sensitive to women’s conditions thru a photo, I just thought this sensitivity might find a response in activism, or good samritanship.
And to make this post relevant to all, I just saw that on the Magnum site, and it’s funny, because it’s about muslims fleeing and leaving pictures behind. Albeit a very different situation than the Calais women, yet all about mug shots and what can be read thru them. and leaving pictures behind.
Check it out: Maybe it takes one to know one, eh?
———————————
Sure do, Kat! But nothing like when I was 17, and much more french, of course. I knew everything then…or if in french: I knew everything zen.
I remeber your question, sorry, I forgot with all that went around jenn’s EPF work. Yes, I just meant that being very sensitive to women’s conditions thru a photo, I just thought this sensitivity might find a response in activism, or good samritanship.
And to make this post relevant to all, I just saw that on the Magnum site, and it’s funny, because it’s about muslims fleeing and leaving pictures behind. Albeit a very different situation than the Calais women, yet all about mug shots and what can be read thru them. and leaving pictures behind.
Check it out: Maybe it takes one to know one, eh?
———————————
Sure do, Kat! But nothing like when I was 17, and much more french, of course. I knew everything then…or if in french: I knew everything zen.
I remeber your question, sorry that I forgo itt with all that went around jenn’s EPF work. Yes, I just meant that being very sensitive to women’s conditions thru a photo, I just thought this sensitivity might find a response in charitable activism, or good samaritanship.
And to make this post relevant to all, I just saw that on the Magnum site, and it’s funny, because it’s about muslims fleeing and leaving pictures behind. Albeit a very different situation than the Calais women, yet all about mug shots and what can be read thru them. and leaving pictures behind.
Check it out: http://inmotion.magnumphotos.com/essay/taliban
No idea what happened with the threepeat. Too many fingers on the keyboards?…
anyway, again: http://inmotion.magnumphotos.com/essay/taliban
JOE…
“weird” is definitely how i describe myself…
MANUEL…
when you return from your trip, please contact me and we can begin a dialogue…
safe travels ..
cheers, david
Erica,
If I were you I’d get on the Platon salon waitlist.
Looks like everyone who is in the group is a personal friend or one of his assistants, retouchers, etc. but maybe he will expand it…worth a try.
ALL…
speaking of Walden Pond and salons etc…i need some advice….about roses….i have two very nice rosebushes at my newly found version of Walden down on the shore (where i plan to have a selected group for some kind of seminar, fishing trip, photo shoot, book publishing discussion etc)…in any case, these roses (i have no idea what kind) bloomed spectacularly about two weeks ago…i mean off the charts….now most blooms are gone, but a neighbor told me she has seen it bloom all summer long into the fall..another neighbor told me i should immediately prune it significantly right now…my question is: should i clip off the dying blooms, radical pruning, or just leave the bush alone???
if i am going to help some of you with editing, maybe some of you can help me with gardening…
thanks
cheers, david
Maybe that can help (and its “related videos”), David, until someone does a btter job than me trying to help:
Manuel Garcia,
You are very courageous to ask for an on-line critique from DAH and I do hope that you make the best of it. The words from DAH that I would hang on to are “you definitely have potential to push beyond where you are as a pure image maker…” – remember, David plays it straight; he’s not being nice to you, he really means it.
He’s been there: ask him about his early “I’m glad that you are young and strong because what I have to say will make you feel old and tired” (paraphrase) rejection from National Geographic. He took the advice given to him and produced an essay that turned things around. As they say, the rest is history. I do hope that you work with David and look forward to seeing your work. If you can, take a workshop; you will learn in one week what it will take you five years to learn yourself.
Good light,
Mike.
fresh photos…..( the old school ROADTRIPS way…:))))))))
NEW LINK
NEW LINK
NEW LINK………. fresh work……
“hot” from Watts California ( u know.. next to Compton… DA HOOD )
Enjoy…. click below for the slideshow…
http://picasaweb.google.com/innerspacecowpanos/BRENDAHOOD?authkey=Gv1sRgCOuwj4C79bnt0gE#slideshow/5340236411677129538
HERVE…
thanks…just exactly what i needed to know…
LASSAL..
it is interesting that you see Antonin and i as opposites…you are no doubt right…yet, when Antonin and i are together , i cannot think of any photographer with whom i am more simpatico …. by the way, i am home and ready to skype with you anytime..tomorrow morning early???? welcome back…
cheers, david
Panos,
You’re getting good at this. I was reminded of a Melanie Griffith quote from The Bonfire Of The Vanities – “Where did all the white folks go?”. Looks like they are missing a lot.
Good light mate,
Mike.
DAVID
cut the stem to the one that has 5 leaves on it….
you will get double the roses
**
PANOS
you go….
love your energy in each frame….
still not using a flash, eh?!?
**
Real cool stuff, Panos. Especially the burnt tones in some of the pictures, Like #2, just wonderful.
Wendy, Mike R, Herve…. thank you…
( below the link once again, from the HOOD!!! )
http://picasaweb.google.com/innerspacecowpanos/BRENDAHOOD?authkey=Gv1sRgCOuwj4C79bnt0gE#slideshow/5340236411677129538
DAVID,
What Herve and Wendy said…
Also think about the shape you want the rose bush to take. Don’t encourage growth “inwards” towards the center of the plant. You want the new branches to reach outwards.
I’ve been doing a bit of gardening myself. Great fun to dig in the dirt.
I’ve seen a few books where photographers have tried to capture the spirit of Walden Pond, in my opinion most seem to have failed miserably. It would be pretty difficult to visually come up with anything that anywhere near matches Thoreau’s words.
However, the only nature photographer I would love to see try would be Freeman Patterson. I’ve always loved his nature work, it’s so far away from stereotypical “nature” photography, it’s poetic. He’s a wonderful writer too. And a gear minimalist too, which i love.
A raggedy copy of Walden, is my permanent companion. Everytime I travel it’s always found somewhere in the bottom of my pack. Even though there is no way I would go back to traditional nature photography again, Walden is still an inspiration….
I’ve also got a paperback Don McCullin “Unreasonable Behaviour” in there too, it helps me stop being such a whiner when things aren’t going right on a trip!
I think a trip to Walden would be a dissapointment though if it has become a “tourist attraction”. It could never match the imagery in your mind.
Manuel Garcia;
I’m glad to see you’re taking the critique and running with it. David and Bill Allard’s critiques were watersheds for me, especially Mr Allards well aimed cowboy boot!!!
I often find it difficult to understand why someone asks for a critique and then gets upset if it tells them something they don’t want to hear? Why bother asking in the first place?
Mr Allard’s critique was tough, but fair. What more can you ask for? There’s no point having someone blowing smoke up your rear and telling you what you want to hear. David was far more tactfull!! :-)) But he said exactly the same thing, but in a different way.
Cheers
As for roses; all mine are old fasioned types and succumb to pair of hedgeclippers cutting two thirds off them each winter!!! They flower like mad, but like I said; they are olde world roses!!
Cool stuff Panos. Be careful out there.
Ross, nice one! Unreasonable Behaviour is a landmark book. It would be good to see Don as a guest a the Magnum AGM in London.
Best,
Mike.
Mike; “Unreasonable Behaviour is a landmark book”
I’ve got two copies, the paperback in my pack/luggage and a hardback that never leaves my house!!!
probably the photographer whos work I most admire.
John;
I love his ethics and sensibilities as much as his work. It was great to see some of his new UK work in his “In England” book
MIKE R….
good idea…i will invite Don if he is around….lovely man…”lovely” might seem like a funny adjective for what many would assume to be a super macho guy, but it fits i think in his case…he is actually the only “war photographer” i can think of who made such an interesting transition…
ROSS…CATHY
thanks for the advice…now, one last little thing….i have heard that it is bad to get the leaves wet with a sprinkler in the sunshine (they will get black spots) …true or false???
PANOS…
i like #13,14,22,39,40…mostly #13…but, what i think even more is that you should take this backdrop at home bit even further…the cheesier the better…do a very large montage….like 10ft x 10ft with about 100 of these pictures on it…cheapo prints…..but, mounted on aluminum….nicely , perfectly framed…do three to five of these…limited edition one of a kind…..Girls n’the Hood…..Fahey-Kline gallery….get rich….
cheers, david
Ross. Agreed. His work kills me, and yet is always full of humanity too. first time I saw his work i nearly gave up.
John
hahaha ROSE BUSHES… i am glad i had the time (who hasn’t?) to go over the last posts about DAH asking about roses :
“should i clip off the dying leaves, do radical pruning or just leave the bush alone”
i think that you are talking about real rosebushes yes??? i was wondering if this is one of your cryptic messages and much of joe’s parallels that he wants of BURN …
isnt this what we deal with in life?
especially with our children, our aspirations, our dreams?
hoping that if we clip off our dying aspirations (hopes of other people – our children – fulfilling our own dreams), do radical pruning of things that bog us down: we are now cognizant of the possibility of fruitful blooming OR we are at risk of killing our own life’s rosebushes as we make the hateful uncomfortable change.
change can be a good thing, but only in the hands of a caring gardener, with trowels of empathy with a real green thumb of passion…
(musings – on a work day after a holiday – aargh!!)
David;
Water in the early morning so they have all day to dry out. If you water in the afternoon/evening they stay damp all night and can get fungus diseases… Water in hot sun and the drops magnify the sunlight and burn the leaves… Here endeth the lesson!!! :-))
“i will invite Don if he is around” David; statements like that sure make me envious to be living so far away from the “photo world” as such.
Speaking of critiques; heres a link to my new project. If anyone wants to get stuck in feel free. It’s a very loose edit of a project in its embryonic stages….
http://www.lightstalkers.org/galleries/contact_sheet/18440
Cheers
(as you may have guessed, somehow I have become unspammed at the moment & posts are going through!)
David
I don’t know squat about roses, but check out Vancouver photographer and mega gardening freak Alex Waterhouse Haywards blog. http://alexwaterhousehayward.com/blog/blog.html
I’m sure he’d be delighted to give you a few tips.
Now we’re talking about pruning roses. Gotta be time for another finalist essay.
Jim;
“Now we’re talking about pruning roses. Gotta be time for another finalist essay”
Well I did offer up a link for critique if anyones interested……
Looked at your photos. The photos are fine, but I don’t think they say much about how “alright” kids are. Just photos of young people. I see young people, in general, who party too much and drink too much, and burn through 500 minutes a day on cell phones. I’m afraid I don’t share your optimism (big surprise, huh?).
thank u Gordon……….:)))))))))))))))
GORDON L,
I see that you live in Vancouver, that you are into folk music, and I seem to remember from some previous posts that you are probably closer in age to me than a lot of the generally younger crowd here… so why don’t you drop me an email at: satkins@telcomplus and we can get together some time and have a jaw, share some stories, some pix, and some hot licks.
Cheers,
Jim; “I’m afraid I don’t share your optimism (big surprise, huh?).”
Hi there, no I’m not surprised :-0, but I value any comments!! I decided I would focus on kids having fun rather than the negative aspects. Sure, it’s not a perfect world, but there’s a lot of positives out there.
Mind you, if I’d have focussed on the negative, would you have said “Right, ok pics, but they aren’t going to change anything!!!” :-))
Where I have been shooting it’s mostly the independent music kids, who actually don’t drink that much at all, and there has only been 2 small incidents in nearly 5 months of shooting down there. Both caused by those who don’t normally go there. They are all there supporting each other.
Outside on the street there are plenty of arrests etc, so I’m not looking through rose tinted specs. After shooting down there though I don’t need specs, hearing aids would be more applicable!
As an aside; how would you focus on a youth project? As I said before all comments are welcome. I don’t want to fall into the trap of only shooting the bad, even if it would provide more “dramatic” pics.
Thanks Jim, always keen to learn more.
ok ALL……
another new photo Link….
LINK
LINK
LINK
“My PHOTO EXHIBITION” through my eyes……….
we have already seen the way Haik and Jared witnessed my “Venice Beach” exhibition…
now click below to view my way of experiencing it…
http://picasaweb.google.com/innerspacecowpanos/VENICEExhibition?authkey=Gv1sRgCNnDodSZm-vdeg#slideshow/5340346759188021458
Thanks, Panos. One thing I will always remember is that pink dress your lady was wearing. #15, almost there, potentially a superb image, I hope you shot a few more in that setting, with her modeling for you, her face opening up, uninhibited.
Panos
Your photos… or rather path of photos are more and more outstanding. And for sure you know how to see a women.
from fisrt link my favorite are: 1, 5, 10, 13, 14, 15, 17, 29, 45, 47, 48
from second: 2, 9, 11, 14, 15, 21, 22, 23, 25,
peace
DAH – you may have missed my question the other day… i am still drawing a blank on our friend from Guanajuato???
Panos, or more like #22 …
And I loved da hood too. Those gigs are a trip. I hate to agree but yeah … 13 is the stuff.
Dear Lassal,
‘2 cents’ is great! I wish to see ‘meaning’.
All,
Did you see Gilden,s ‘hate groups on the rise’ ?
Excellent documentary work. Pure, simple, stright. Gilden is still over the top.
thank you …….
ok….. one more link..
3rd link
3rd link
3rd link… HUNGRY IN “EL TAURINO”… fast food place somewhere in Little Salvador…LA……….
http://picasaweb.google.com/innerspacecowpanos/HungryInElTaurino?authkey=Gv1sRgCKjnw9Kz5Muh0wE#slideshow/5340359344729944562
Panos, my friend, you just keep getting more & more brilliant as Freida gets more and more beautiful. Your color, man. Your color!!!
Patricia
PANOS,
If I had one last post to submit here in BURN ,I would say this:
YOU ARE SOOOOOOOOREALLLLL !!!
You better succeed …!!!
ROSSY,
THANK you for trusting the young and the “innocent”.
It’s not easy to get an access to the new generation and you got a door open…!!!
SIDNEY,
I love folk music and I am older than Jim …can we get together?
I hope you don’t mind I have a tin pie on my head and I am facing east…:)))))))
LOVE YOU BURNIANS
CIVI…
DO NOT let Jim get you….
he will try….:)
Civilian…
Atually it’s done more for me than them. I’ve always tried to be openminded but this project has helped even more.
Panos;
Go for it man!!!
PANOS,
JIM is my twin brother …:) Ask him from where he got the cut near his eyebrow …
COME on ask him…!
That’s why he doesn’t want his key…cause I am gonna tell them all!
He is family though…he is a Keeper !!!
ROSS,
I count on you !
P.S Freida you rock !!!
Tequilla on YOU pan
oups…I have to readjust…
Jim is my brother …
NOT TWIN
I repeat …NOT TWIN
TO ALL,
“Photography for me is not looking, it’s feeling. If you can’t feel what you’re looking at, then you’re never going to get others to feel anything when they look at your pictures.”
Don McCullin
LOVE… ly
You are in our hearts
panos – i think the home work is already looking to be stronger than venice.. i´m kind of looking forward to the home work more.. with dark kids and your lover i think you were already shooting stronger work than venice.. looking forward to seeing more.. good one :ø)
all..
i had a TOUGH day yesterday – continuing into today.. personal mumbles and all that… anyway..
i received the notice that my tibetan work (it´s on my site) made it into the top 200 of the EPF.. which is more than i expected of photos i shot when i was 18 :ø)
anyway – rotten time was being had and the letter form david rejecting the application was ONE OF THE MOST PLEASANT, positive and wholly KIND letters i have received about any work, FULL STOP:
i guess we are not mean´t to smile and feel good about rejection – especially from a group email.. really though.. david.. such a well intended scribble went a LONG WAY to making up for a tough day.. and you had a real way of encouraging us all in it.. so
THANK YOU::: buy ya a beer in a few weeks :ø)
OKAY
another email from a hopeful, this time asking for contacts and a crit..
i´m not going to keep on posting these.. but this was a long reply so i thought i´d cut n paste for any hopeful music photographers.. i know there are other teachers on here (imants, bobus) and editors too, (jim), and so if everyone contributes thoughts like these perhaps they could make it into davids ´cut n paste of the useful´, from the comments section of burn..
as i said – i won´t post anymore – so i answered this one thoroughly so thought it worth sharing..
aye..
_________________________
Hi David,
Love your site. I was asking if you still had any contacts at the music mags? I’m shamelessly touting for business at the moments, but it’s quite hard for a snapper who isn’t a pap to make a decent living! I’ve attached a few of my pics for you to have a quick critique.
Cheers,
XXXX
_____________
hi XXXX..
thanks for emailing
okay.. i guess all i can tell you about is my own experience.. i have no problem helping out in any way.. 10 years of music mag freelancing is enough for a lifetime.. these days i just love hanging out with my lover and son in norway, where i have set up home base.
regarding names for magazines – they are in the front of magazine.. so i would just buy 4 or 5 you want to work for, target them with photos suitable for their publication and all their names and phone numbers, emails will be in the front .. be a bit ballsey and things will move along.. make no apologies.. they need people who offer good content.. they survive on it.. in many cases, and for the little money they offer, with contacts like you have you will be a positive benefit for them…
general advice would be these points i guess.
– get a tight folio together of your best 10 photographs.. you can email these to a magazine and follow up with a phone call – the next day or same day.. so they will have seen your work.. ask if they have time to talk and all that, because deadlines always take front row place and they will appreciate someone who understands that.
best thing is always to visit in person of course.. it is so hard to say ´no´ to someone who is standing there in front of you..
– the photos you choose need to cover all possible bases for the magazine.. what they are likely to use, which in most cases covers the crowd as much as the bands.. on commission, for dance music which was my specialty, i would only take dj photos for 15 mins of the night.
– whenever you call or email the magazine have a suggestion for a gig or festival to cover which is around 6 weeks away.. as that is the lead time for magazines.. at first this needs to be a gig you are already going to.. maybe you know the promoters.. that kind of thing.. make it EASY for the magazine.. be confident without being pushy..
– magazine editors edit stories and content.. they need contributors who think and act for themselves.. people who are proactive.. suggest good content.. interesting stuff.. and contributors who are prepared to work towards that end.. in my case that mean´t if i wanted to cover a foreign festival i might be able to get money out of the tourist board of that country.. maybe there was a flight share i could arrange between 2 festivals in the same country.. that kind of thing. main thing is be prepared to graft a little.
– be consistent and be reliable… it is amazing how many photographers never get more work because they submit photos late, do not have a style pinned down or act like arseholes while they are representing the magazine.. it really can be as simple as delivering acceptable photographs ON TIME..
– try to have a list of possible magazines and photo / editor in chiefs who you contact every week.. monday used to be my idea´s day – i would probably only ever be contributing to 4 or 5 magazines at any one time, (from a pool of maybe 9 or 10), and i would make the same suggestions for articles to those four every week.. always pitching festivals and gigs 6 weeks in advance.. that was monday sorted.. (or tuesday if it had been a heavy weekend).
– do not sign anything – do not give any photos away free… a magazine will use you because they like you and not because you are cheap or free.. NME have a contract they give to snappers – they pay 100 gbp per night and require photographs full copyright, indefinitely.. never sign anything.. it is better to walk awaqy from a magazine than give away your pension of stock photos :ø)
– fee´s range from 5usd per photo (urb magazine usa) through to 150gbp per gig (dj magazine uk) .. with most being up there at dj mags level..
again – it´s just my opinion, but if you start with a magazine giving away work they will take advantage.. will never pay you.. and will maybe never pay a photographer again.. seriously – try not to do it.. a name credit alone is not acceptable to a landlord as rent :ø)
hmm..
seems like i am a little bloated with advice there so please remember that it is only advice.. only worth listening to on a certain level, since i do not have the ego to put too solid a full stop after my own perception. these days, and for the last year since i have been lecturing photography, i have for the most part lost contact with magazine clients… and i´m happy to have left them for now.. those magazines and clients are not the future for me – although i wish you the very best of luck with them yourself.
there is no money in this live of work as a profession.. there never will be for the vast majority.. and the only reason to do it is for the love of photography.. for the photographs.. for the love of people and the adoration of music.. if that is your motivation you cannot loose.. you will always win.. you will leave the cynicism to people with less pure motives and as they get screwed up by the trappings of the work, you will fly and have your first exhibition :ø)
the reasons i am out of it – week in week out spending all my time away from friends.. on the road.. different cities.. different countries.. some good people.. some astonishingly cruel.. the life of extremes it gave me was fantastic for 10 years or more.. and on the come-down i can say there are no regrets at all.. but now i want money.. i have a beautiful son.. and living on the floor of a disused factory i had as a studio.. never knowing where my next measly cheque would come from.. all got a little dull.. the photography i still love with a passion and now i hope to direct my work towards helping people for whom the press is more life changing than a dj, promoter or marketing client.
okay.. i have gone on rather extensively – you can tell that i still enjoy talking about it all..
i still photograph for private clients – festivals themselves – but for the magazines, i am glad to be out of that thrashing floor.. i hope my next magazine clients have all the same characters.. kind and more like friends.. yet this time i want the magazines to have a different level of content.
lots of luck.. i hope i have not bored you.. and please let me know how things get on for you :ø)
david
p.s. – at magazines – i could give you email address´of those i used to work for.. although it would be no real help..
you need to email the editor in cheif and the art designer.. you need to pitch ideas to the features editor and the live editor.. for your first emails you need to send to a couple of people and phone one.. if they do not reply it is because they are too busy and hear from may be 10 photographers a week.. they will talk to the ones who telephone or visit them :ø)
david bowen – freelance photography
http://www.bophoto.co.uk
email number 2
________________
.. and on your photos..
you are on the right track with photoing the bands .. remember that magazines like clean backgrounds.. the lead singers.. that kind of thing.. if you see a group of snappers in the pit all trying to stand in the same spot when there is lots of space around them it´s because that is the spot where the artist is framed without the stage scaffold and obstructions behind.. without the microphone in front of face.. the place where it´s simple and easy to see the singer and the expression they are pulling.
i know many music snappers just run around events looking for the famous people.. as they can sell those photos for much more.. but do not discount the crowd.. there are a million and one good projects to be shot in a crowd.. and try to take more documentary photos from your perspective.. screw the famous people – show us what it feels like to be YOU at these gigs.. you know?
if you late night party, snap it.. maybe you hang with the posh in the vip.. snap their glam rags..
i was never a music photographer – i was a photographer working in music :ø)
ponder the difference :ø)
peace
d
Jim
My goodness, so this is the first generation that parties and drinks too much. And imagine, if drinking is that bad in your dry county, how much worse in the rest of the USA?..boggles the mind just to contemplate. It surely will mean the end of the human race as we know it if this over-indulgence by our youth is allowed to continue. Yes, and illegal immigration too. Double whammy, wet backs and sloppy drunken kids. Gosh, but you are a tolerant man, Mr. Powers. A credit to your newspaper and your community.
But i dunno, you see what i don.t see. Maybe it´s because you didn´t have kids to keep you young at heart, clear headed and open-minded. So, let me just tell you my observations. I see my daughter and her friends..they are 100 times better behaved than my friends and i were at their age. 100x, easy. I am proud as hell of their hard work in college all the while playing musical instruments, creating good art, maintaining healthy relationships, loving their families and achieving social good by working in their communities and dreaming up projects to make life better for everybody. THIS is what i see and i am happy to say i am proud of all of them as if they were all my own children. And those that do party hearty a little too often, i hold out hope and optimism that they will see the advantage of going to work without a hangover and organize their priorities and settle down. Because most do. Same as always.
And 500 cell phone minutes vs. 500 (or even 1000) minutes spent on line..Jim, what the hell´s the difference? I´m sure you can tell me.
CIVILIAN and GRACIE
Just so you know, i will be commenting on essays here but won´t be back to these forums. I am not working on photography enough and that´s way more important than what´s happening here. Civilian, carry on, you have a lot of friends here and i´m happy to see that. I´ll stop by from time to time to say hi..
ERICA
Thanks so much for the info on Smith. Good luck with your kids..you´ll be great..the worst is behind you. This is know. :)
DAH
Why not just name this forum ¨The Woodshed¨? Seriously, i think that name is just great!
best to all
over and out..
kat
kathleen..
really enjoy your posts – look forward to your dropping by :ø)
you are right of course – taking photos, planning to take photos, editing photos.. thinking.. all important stuff that this part of the burn forums need to not take away from :ø)
d
David B
Thanks, i have always enjoyed reading yours as well. I will miss some of the writing here big time..it´s been really fun for the most part interacting here but my photgraphy has taken a back seat and that just can´t happen. So take care, you..i wish you all the best, David..you are a gentle and thoughtful soul.
hugZ
kathleen
DAH,
this is a very late post to your question. it probably got answered but anyways…
you shouldn’t water in the day as the water gets really hot in the day and does burn the leaves.
i found this out recently myself.
we’re trying to plant some roses ourselves here in london but they probably won’t survive in this weather.
tips on watering roses:
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/Watering+Roses+%3F+Tips+for+Successful+Blooms-a01073880482
DAH
never ever thought i’d be giving gardening advice to you! and never dreamt i’d ever talk
about it on-line!!!
you should ‘dead head’ roses regularly (very therapeutic i find), wait until winter for
the big prune. You can cut them back quite vigorously at this time, they’ll come back strong (they love it!).garlic is an excellent companion plant for roses, keeps away aphids etc., it’s easy to grow and
you get to use it at the end of the season ;)
KATIE, OUR STREET FIGHTER, KATHLEEN FONSECA,
WHY? WHY? WHY?
Is it because JIM is my brother?
is it because I am Dyslexic?
Is it because BURNIANS have so big egos that they can’t see beyond their puffy chests?
Is it because MyGracie didn’t give you ice-cream?
is it because you don’t like the position that MR.HARVEY has assigned for YOU?
Is it because I haven’t finished the keys?
is it because I LOVE YOU so much?
IS IT BECAUSE ….???????????????????????????????????
BURNIANS, UNIVERSE …PLEASE SEND THE ULTIMATE ENERGY TO THE ONLY ONE
KATHLEEN FONSECA AS SAPPHO !!!
LOVE to YOU to YOUR FAMILY…I am waiting for your BOOK !!!!
YOURS,
CIVILIAN forever…I am crying
MARCIN
thanx so much!
I am still collecting stuff for “Meaning”. It is really difficult to get to it. Depending on what I manage to amass until the end of the year I will be deciding on how to show it later. Maybe more conceptual, maybe more of an essay. Maybe both. Maybe I HAVE to do both to do the project justice. I have my ideas but things keep changing. And so I will wait some more until I post anything. But thanks a lot for your interest. It will be so nice to get your oppinion once I put it out there. I have really never done anything like that – I am very curious about the reception.
DAH
I just read that you will be attempting to skype me this (your) morning. Unfortunately I will be away until probably later this evening (here), which will be early evening or late afternoon for you. I’ll leave skype on as soon as I return and if you find the time I’ll be glad to get together.
Yeah, of course you and Antonin have much in common. But you probably can guess what I was talking about. All the more so if you know him well. :)
KAT
you will be missed.
I myself disappear often from here when things get too much into the way. Maybe you just need to cut things down a bit and not chop it off as extremely as you mentioned. You have a very nice way of writing – it is as if you were standing right in front of us talking and gesticulating. It is very refreshing and I always liked to read your comments. Take some time … and then try to come back into this blog at least a little … :-))))))
DAVID B
if I understood Joe correctly, you will be arriving in London on the 24th? How long will you be staying?
I am arriving on the 25th … But I wanted to spent some time on the weekend to have a look at some galleries. So if you’d like to join in … :))
Write me an email, ok?
Cheers! Looking forward to finally meeting you in person.
lassal
fantastic.. joe mentioned you would be over..
i will arrive on the wednesday nigth and stay until saturday..
if you have not visited the national gallery then we all need to.. amazing.. classical paintings.. actually, one of my favorite paintings of all time is there..
the ambassadors.. by holbein.. the perspective skull.. i love it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ambassadors_(Holbein)
kat
:ø)
show us some snaps along the way :_ø9
ON GROWING:::
all i grow are herbs.. thyme, coriander.. rosemary.. basil.. lemon grass..
i´m not that successfull with it and tend to overwater – as i hear they thrive best on only a little.
roses i´ve not encountered although if they are anything like the yukka which i grew into a tree it is all about watering, plant food and selective cropping..
i loved my yukka.. his name was simon.. plants need names to thrive as well.. every goldfish and plant i have ever owned has been called simon… simon lives with a good friend now… i get sent photos on occasion.
:ø)
katiecakes,
i know exactly what youre saying…
do take some time off and dont forget to flat iron the hair
so you look good working out in pilates
and when taking pictures of your kids…
have fun and come back once in a while
and bring the spunk and fresh air in here.
nightshift’s no fun without you.
im turning my timecard in too – for the moment.
ttyl – civi
DAVID B
good idea. Actually I also wanted to visit the National Portrait Gallery … I have been standing in line there twice already, for a looong time. And always when they gave me my appointment, it was too late because I had to leave for the airport. This time, I swore to myself, I would make it!!!
DAH
I’ve been assigned to my mom’s rosegarden for years. And actually you find all you need in the comments above :))
SAM
did not know on the garlic though!!! NICE! I have no idea if this plant grows here in these heavy soils but I will give it a try.
Sailing off …
By for now.
hmm – for some reason my link to the painting did not highlight entirely – need to copy the whole link line and paste into brower, otherwise it takes you to the wrong ambassadors..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ambassadors_(Holbein)
Kathleen, glad your kids and their friends are doing well. A side effect of what I do is cynicism. You see the good kid with the great grades. I see the same 18 year old coming in begging us not to run the jail record where he was arrested for drugs, or DWI or hitting his girlfriend. There are clearly some great young people around. But for the most part, I’m not encouraged at what I see. I hope I’m proved wrong.
Now, go out and burn some film, or pixels, or whatever your preference. :)
MY GRACIE,
Don’t even think to Time out…
Spacecowboyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy…OIME
DAVIDB thank you !!! I know you are ready to go too
you are REAL BURNIANS !
VIVA !
P.S BOBB you Rock
JOE …sorry for the shouting :-))
Davidb,
maybe this one?
http://employees.oneonta.edu/farberas/arth/arth214/Ambassadors_Home.html
Davin Ellicson
May 25, 2009 at 2:38 pm ( on äftermath¨)
Of course everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I just have trouble really making any critical comments about a photographer who has won major prizes when I have not. I mean who am I to comment when I have not won a World Press or PoYi Award or been elected to the Joop Swart Masterclass? A photographer’s work may not be to your own liking but somehow judges of major contests have deemed it quite worthy.
_______________________
hi davin..
your post has made me think a couple of things – firstly on the understanding that more and more photographers see competitions as the only way of gaining recognition.. to me a competition win is similar to gaining a decent commission.. yet these days competitions seem more viable to man y.
it´s interesting to me because while a competition gains press and credit, which is valuable, it is outside of the reality of photography in a way.. and i wonder if some starting in photography now have the intention of competition rather than commission.. for me commissions are far more important because something about competition winning images are unsatisfying.. i cannot put my finger on why.. perhaps because they are chosen by a panel of people.. perhaps a competition winning photograph can be less idiosyncratic because it has to appeal to a panel..
in any case – winning competitions can supply a fund with which to do extremely creativ and individual work, and anything which allows that must be a good thing.. still though.. i find it difficult to motivate myself for them..
i still think that a well pitched and researched idea has a great deal more opportunity to come to fruition than through the gamble of entering a competition..
in that sense and in context with what i say above i think we all have the right to speak equally about photographers who have won competitions.. because to me they are no better as photographers.. they just apply themselves differently to some of the rest of us.. who perhaps on the whole do not even enter competitions..
commissions not competitions is the way forward for me.. precisely because i think the road is less uncertain and much easier to foresee.. even if it is much harder to get similar press through working commissions..
but you know..
i didn´t start in photography to get a ´name´ for myself.. and when i eventually started trying it was for no other reason than to enable selling what i love to photograph :ø)
” The painting asks us to see invisibly the invisible truth which is hidden behind the surface of appearances.”
LOVE U ALLLLLLLLL
ANTIOS
¨fame is but a fruit tree, so very unsound.¨
N.D.
civilian :ø)
i am in two mind about the working trip.. packing up the flat now.. no address for a couple of months.. on the road with the family for the first time.. no internet..
will try to drop in when i am gone.. when i am gone though it´s photography .. all and everything.. and cooking.. maybe fishing.. photography is all though.. and i will report back refreshed.. with a handfull of essays to sell, a tired right eye and a muscle toned trigger finger..
you do intrigue me civilian.. all of you.. i imagine you as probably a writer.. freelance perhaps.. philanthropic definitely.. ragged trousers and a well pool of experience behind smiling eyes which betray a knowledge of both life high and low tides..
okay.. gotta go.. bubble-wrap popping and packing in between.
david
“To know someone here or there
with whom you can feel
there is understanding
in spite of distances or
thoughts expressed
That can make life a garden.”
~ Goethe
DAVIDB,BEATE,TOR CAPA…I have promised that I will be with you for many years …
Your keys are ready…
I know that YOU will have amazing time …the JOURNEY is what it counts!
I will email soon…
It seems that I will be gone this summer too…
Your Greek home will be empty
BUT NOT for long…it looks like the sea just before the storm…hm…whatever
where is KATIE ? She always knows what I want to write…Ok..I am strong…
I AM A CIVILIAN AFTER ALLLLLL AND I F%%%$KING LOVE YOU.
P.S Where is BOBB ( the Awakened One)?
No more FETA for you DB:)))
David B,
snap with the ambassadors.
DAVID B…
you are 1000% right….your head is in the right place…juried shows and competitions are what they are , BUT absolutely not the way to put value on your own work nor as the primary way of creating your own style….editors do notice who receives what, but i can assure you do not hire based on an award ….whoever is about to invest in a photographer for a commissioned assignment most likely has another set of values in mind based on the readership/advertisers of their particular publication…
cheers, david
……..isn’t it time for a new thread ………600 plus is starting to become a bit helter skelter to stay ith
doing!
you devil Imants …nice posting number…I was waiting 2 weeks to hit 666 posting
I guess I have to start writing again …Hmmm…JOE…:)))
Now I CAN go !!!
1) When is the most important time to do something?
2) Who is the most important person with whom to do something?
3) What is the most important thing to do?
1. Never.
2. Nobody.
3. Nothing.
…and so it goes…
1) When is the most important time to do something?
2) Who is the most important person with whom to do something?
3) What is the most important thing to do?
1.Yesterday, or better yet last week
2.That nagging voice deep deep down inside one’s mind
3.Nervously check your cell phone or email for messages every 30 seconds
1) When is the most important time to do something?
2) Who is the most important person with whom to do something?
3) What is the most important thing to do?
1. Duck.
2. Duck.
3. Potato.
…and so it goes…
IMANTS…
yes, yes, i need to write a new story…been pretty busy my man, but i will get on it soonest…i am going to photograph today a family i have been trying to photograph for a long time, so as soon as that is done i will respect your wishes….
SIDNEY…AKAKY
i would go with Sidney on this except my #3 would be: get as far away from the keyboard for as long as possible whenever possible..
Dear David,
Good morning!
I’ve sent you an e-mail … Please check out it… :)))
Dear Sidney,
Good morning, too!
How are you? :)))
burn….and so it goes….
In response to the 3 questions i offer this sentence; Right now, whoever you are with, live every moment.
PEACE
John
David Bowen,
I agree entering competitions will not make you a better photographer. I feel sorry for those that enter them and feel devastated when they don’t win anything. It sets them back and destroys their confidence and dreams and energy. There are more and more photographic competitions these days, simply because most organisers make loads of dough from running them.
Far better to do what you are going to do, chase commissions and develop your skills as a photographer. Good luck to you.
KYUNGHEE LEE…
i have searched my mail carefully and have no recent e-mail from you…can you please send again???
JOHN…
yes, yours the best
1) When is the most important time to do something?
2) Who is the most important person with whom to do something?
3) What is the most important thing to do?
1 now.. no.. wait… now.. ahh.. missed it.. NOW
2 love the one you´re with…
3 i disagree.. ´this´is the most important thing to do.
barrie..
that´s an angle i had not thought of, you are right though.
i knew a newspaper snapper who´s workplace used to make them enter all the major competitions.. that was cool.. a win was a bonus.. an aside ..
…….
2nd email spam from these guys.. i wonder how they get our address´?
anyway…
Entry Fee: $25 for the first entry, $10 for each additional entry.
http://www.artofphotographyshow.com/
in californication land.
CMA i can’t keep up, so i shut up ;-)
David Bowen,
I get at least two/three emails each day from organisers promoting their photo competitions. Mostly different ones at that, inviting me to enter, extending the deadlines etc. etc. I know these are real desperate times for many photographers but I feel the money spent entering these competitions would be better spent on their work and portfolio and chasing real work/commissions. You know you could spend a few hundred quid/dollars entering these competitions each year that would buy a fare to somewhere in the world that would improve your portfolio. Aside from the psychological damage that you suffer if you don’t win anything and see unworthy work that does.
Two years ago I decided to put the development and enrichment of my photography above anything else in my life. Unfortunately trying to earn a living from it just gets in the way !
BARRIE…
hmmmmmm, you say “most organizers make loads of dough from running them” referring to competitions….you are probably right, but all i know is that Anton and i are having Raman noodles for lunch…please remember that there was no entry fee for the EPF…..
i do absolutely agree with you that some photographers get totally disheartened if they are not “chosen”…this is a big mistake on their part….anyone who survives in this business has got to be able to take disappointment many many times over…not take not “winning” to heart and keep a hard focus on the work..evaluate their own work honestly..believe in the work and keep moving forward…
few photographers have a realistic sense of where their work actually “stands” in the big picture..they have a hard time discerning…..the smart ones do…..realistic self evaluation is what separates the ones who will survive and the ones who do not….creating false conspiracy theories and cynicism abound among so many young photographers…this is totally debilitating and for sure those photographers are never going to realize their dream…
for everything that has happened “good” for me either with grants or commissions, there is a ratio of about 10:1 of failure to success…anyone expecting anything less than this ratio more or less will just not make it….yes, yes , you should always put whatever funds you have into production….and figure out the best balance of how to secure the best outlets…i assume you realize that one of my goals with all that is going on is to make BURN a source for as you say “real commissions”…let’s see if i can make this happen…i am trying…but, as i said my ratio is 10:1……still does not keep me from trying….
thanks for your comment…a good one
cheers, david
JOE,
I am the Civilian and as a REAL Civilian I have to SHUT UP..:).
I have to admit Joe I LOVE your writing …:)
P.S maybe a cyberflirting ? hmm…I” ll go for the street fighter !!!
MANCHESTER-BARCELONA !!! BEER for everyone !
VIVA sakhalin !
KATIE and OLD BURNIANS,
we have new BLOOD …I AM in heaven !!!!!!!nanananan
LOVE YOU …more come in only together WE can do it.!!!
and DONATE …donate it feels good …
David (DAH),
it’s true that usually my questions are often rhetorical, and do not necessarily need an answer, but maybe you might want to answer this:
A BURN friend assumed you only looked at the essays on the EPF entries (“…He wouldn’t have checked out resumes or other awards or even have known these photogs by name: it’s all about the work.”).
I do not think so, it seems the thing to do, IMO, that the granter looks at the info/text the grantee sends. Which is not saying it’s not about the work, far from it, just that there may be more than just one consideration that goes into attributing a grant.
Thanks, David, if you answer this, but apologies if this is something you were about to talk about as to how you procedeed with your EPF choices.
addendum: Our friend did mean, of course, outside of the BURN regulars who have sent an essay and whom you obviously know.
David,
I wasn’t for one minute implying that BURN was part of the competitions scene. What you are doing here is a breath of fresh air and is vitally important to photographers everywhere. You deserve the support of all of them for putting yourself on the line for doing it.
I don’t think the EPF is a competition in the real sense as I understand them.
What colleges and universities should teach their students before sending them on their way, is how to develop thick skins and how to deal with the real world, as well as how to develop their work and portfolios too.
HERVE…
not exactly sure what you mean, but are you asking if i knew some of the photographer’s who submitted?? yes, of course i did…impossible not to…did it influence me?? no….some of my very best friends, including my girlfriend, did not become finalists…i made as straight a call as i could possibly make…i do not know nor had i even heard of most of the finalists, but do know three…i will write a piece at the end describing the process…did i answer your question????
cheers, david
BARRIE…
yes, it is ironic that you need to be super sensitive to make fine work and yet have a thick skin for when it comes to publishing and exhibiting…
cheers, david
Good That I am not your friend…:))))
P.S either way…you are dummed !!!( To be perceived as a joke)
David,
“it is ironic that you need to be super sensitive to make fine work and yet have a thick skin for when it comes to publishing and exhibiting…”
It took me a long time to come to that conclusion! Many years in fact. What matters to me in the end is that I’m improving my photography and learning something new each day.
DAH – i think you (and anton) have done a FABULOUS job so far with the 4 finalists and can not wait to see the remaining 6. so you must tell us… do you still have a girlfriend??? (since she was not chosen) – ha ha!!! see you soon. xo
DAH…
Sent you an email on Monday asking for suggestions on books about photo essays…
Should I resend?
very funny Gina…
I do think about what you have said DAH about not having participated in contests, grants only..I find I can’t afford to keep up with the contests even though I have done very well in them; at some point (I think I have reached it) you just have to stop..but what does one do, make a note on the CV..2009..decided to no longer play on the hamster wheel?
man……….. whats wrong with Manchester United today??????????????
Barcelona is pretty serious……………
Barcelona 2-0 M.U…………….
20 minutes to go…………….
I have to agree with David about not being disheartened about not being chosen for a grant or not winning a contest. I have won a lot of contests and and I have not even placed in many many more. The thing to remember is that it is all VERY subjective. I have seen many contests judged and judged a few. It is very interesting how a group of judges will see things different from another set.
One case in point was a photo I took during the presidential campaign last year. The photo won the National Press Photographers Clip contest for the month (region 3). Then it won the NPPA national contest for the month. It won Virginia Associated Press photo of the month AND photo of the year. It won first in the Virginia News Photographers quarterly clip contest.
But then it didn’t place in NPPA Best of Photography, got third in the VNPA pictures of the year (some of Harvey’s buddies judged that one!) Just kidding David! And it did not place or get into the 3 or 4 honorable mentions in 2 other contests.
What does any of that mean? NOTHING. The fact that it didn’t win or place in some contests means exactly the same thing that it means winning in the others. NOTHING.
Yes it feels nice to win. And the recognition can be good when it comes to getting your name out there and getting more work.
I agree with David Bowen when he says “i didn´t start in photography to get a ´name´ for myself.. and when i eventually started trying it was for no other reason than to enable selling what i love to photograph ”
I do think this is key. Shooting what you love and being able to make a living at it is more satisfying than having a room full of David Alan Harveys, Bill Allards, Nachtweys and Richards patting you on the back and telling you how wonderful you are. (no offense David, but I know you agree)
And if somehow, your work is able to positively affect someone or bring awareness to a situation that then brings about a positive change, when you have hit the jackpot.
Remember 5 people judging your work are just a bunch of people with opinions. And 5 different people may and probably will have different opinions.
And we all know what opinions are like…… But that is just my opinion. (grin)
Man David, you need to limit my post lengths… getting into Bob Black territory here…..
Love ya Bob… Are you going to be at LOOK?
@ erica
Just a thought, applying an approach from a completely different discipline…
You are finding you can’t afford (I’m assuming that means from both a capital outlay and a personal time/focus/energy/emotional perspective), yet you feel you’ve done fairly well…
Why not become more selective in your entries? Focus on those grants and contests you believe will most benefit your personal focus and CV. They might be more challenging, but with more focus you can devote (hopefully) more time…
good light to all,
A.
Pete that’s “serial” contest entry for one image………….so you find a image and enter this contest circuit?……….. all for as you state NOTHING……….but it feels nice to win……….. so the whole exercise despite meaning nothing, is about pushing the feel good button?
Hi Jim;
Thanks for your reply. I do see where you are coming from, and I think I can understand your cynicism. If all you are seeing is the bad, then it must colour your vision to some extent. This is one reason why I really value someone like Jim Nachtwey.
To be honest, that is why I chose to freelance rather than pursue newspaper work and its regular salary.
One of the reasons I chose this project was precisely because how I used to feel as a teen when continually told we were “not like we used to be etc”
I’m not young (46) and continually question my motives and ethics etc of this project. But like I asked if I can’t make a difference shooting the bad or the good now so it seems, what’s left to photograph? Cats and dogs and put them on photo.net or dpreview?
:- )
One of the most open and inclusive people I have ever met is an 86 year old nun, who I once wrote about. She has become a good friend and I have learnt so much from her openness.
Through her I decided I didn’t want to become a crusty curmudgeon when I got older. I want to seek out the positive, but not wear rose tinted specs either. Jim; I urge you to go out and hang with some good “average” kids; you’ll be blown away by their acceptance.
When I was in my teens, I thought anyone over 30 was virtually a pensioner, which makes the acceptance I’m receiving from the kids even more pleasing. Anyway; I was always a pretty unconvincing rebel!!!
Oh; and this quote is often attributed to Plato, Socrates or Aristotle. Needless to say it’s been around a while!
“The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers”
Jim; I might not agree with many of your views, but I enjoy your comments because they always keep me thinking. Take care.
andrew b
“Why not become more selective in your entries? Focus on those grants and contests you believe will most benefit your personal focus and CV. They might be more challenging..”
already have, I have weeded out the silly and only participate in contests that I find estimable and whose jury I admire..but there is a point at which even these contests become too much..grants are a different creature..
Pete ;))))…we wont be at Look3: no money. unfortunately, being an aspiring photographer and being a photographer are often 2 different realities, and in a family of photographers will very little money, going to a photofestival doesnt even come close to a priority, as much as i would like to meet some of the people i’ve met here and at LS. We try to keep our life as full as possible here between shooting/writing/living/family….well, our reality as a family of artists is very different, just as the reality of earning a living as photographers is, indeed, very different from what people who dream imagine: it has to be the work that carries you through the tempest and pertubations….
my own take on this grant and others, and all ‘competitions’ (let us make no mistake about it, this IS a competition, as are all grant processes is a simple one. Marina and i have applied for grants before, local, regional and national. There is a ‘way’ to apply. For Grant funding you must try to understand what the jury wants, as well as to understand the nomenclature with which they discuss/analyze/award. It is, on one hand, heroically discouraging. In fact, just this week (how ironic), we’ve been working tirelessly to apply for a final grant for Marina’s work on Russia and identity. A very very close, personal friend helped. He’s won a truckload of grants, awards, etc. he’s a very prestigious avant garde filmmaker: considered the ‘greatest’ (whatever that means) of his generation and one of the iconic figures in canada and europe for his kind of films (he’s just returned from germany where a festival did a retrospective of his work). He’s an extraordinary human being and profoundly loving and thoughtful and in no way like the glitterati of most artists of his stature (he wrote the letter of recommendation for m’s application on her Russia work). There is always a limited amount of funds/support/sponsorship and an unlimited amount of candidates. It is a difficult task, for both applicant and jury. But, it is a game…and so too are the choices who is funded/awarded. It can be soulfully discouraging, because asking for money from anyone is a difficult and often narcissistic-feeling endeavor. I can’t speak for anyone else, but i find the judgment of others toward my work not terribly important, within the context of efforts such as these. What does pain, however, is understanding, often, how this happens. Those who win awards/grants garner, often, more awards/grants. the ratio of failure to success is incalculable and so, at least for me, i’ve never taken a rejection as an indication of what i believe is an appraisal of my work: i just dont care. People get hurt, people feel sad, people feel let down. I feel all those as well but long after no a single person knows me here, i will continue to work, just as the first time i had a picture hung on a wall for an exhibition, no-one here knew a damn thing, and who cares. I do have more to say (no surprise) on this, and i feel the difficulty in the way things are done now (one finalist at a time) causes undue suffering, rather than listing the finalists so all know and then show the essays over the course of time building up to the announcement. However, i also understand and recognize why David and Anton have chosen this path: to build drama and anticipation and excitement for the announcement. C’est la vie. We live in a world where our hopes, desires, expectations, awareness, manner-of-behaving differs from others: that’s just called life. For me, the greatest accomplishment that a grant/award can give a viewer, and another photographer, outside of the respect it may garner or practical aid, is the inspiration the work can provide. I am no longer, however, convinced that this happens. what to do?…who knows…look at the whole thing as a game. be happy for those that ‘win’, be MORE HAPPY for yourself and your work and your life….the most hard-working, most inspired, most loving person i know personally on the planet continues to carve away in near-anonymity, and struggles to reconcile that way of living. And in the end, that person’s gestures, that person’s awareness, that person’s way of living and loving and making work is more inspiring to me as a person than most of all the awards/books i see…..if a person enters this stuff because they think it validates their vision or their work or their spirit, they are wrong. Winning/Fame/Recognition even friendship is but a roll of the dice and often, dice are defined by the knuckles that have groved their wobbly sides, and that’s just the way it is, neither good nor bad. my wife and i look at all these things very simply: if we have the fortune to receive sustenance from them, great, we try to live up to what that means, if not, it’s just another thing…there are people who have less less less, most of the world in fact, who have less….those people by the river, those people in the cells, those people on that island, and all those we choose to detail amid our own shoot for stardom still, quite often, have much much much less than we have or will have….sometimes, in dark moments, when i spend to much time with the photo world, i think (as i’ve said to marina many times), i will just stop…put all the negatives in a drawer and let dima have them when i die, for him to decide what to do with….
we should congratulate and celebrate the winners, of whatever contest/context in which they are held up, and celebrate ourselves and others, not for the awards but because we are all the same….and continually, we divy up and divide….whatever…that there is a need for this always breaks my heart, not for myself, but for those i love and care about….we strive upward because we think that will fill the space (tiny or cavernous) inside each of us…and that space does not get filled that way…for me, one of the best things a person can do is: 1) read Agee’s letter in LetUsKnowPraiseFamousMen to the NewYorker about this stuff and 2) ask yourself: why dont your mothers and fathers and husbands and wives and brothers and sisters and sons and daughters get grants/awards….
from the Tonglen practice (Tibetan buddhist practice of compassion):
“May I take defeat upon myself
And offer them the victory.”
–Geshe Langri Tangpa
running
b
about Geshe Langri Tangpa
“Among the Kadampa masters, there was one called Geshe Langri Thangpa, who was an incredible teacher and a really great master. He is said to have set the standard for meditation on the defects of samsara. In fact, he was even known as ‘Langthangpa Gloomy Face,’ because he never ever smiled. Except, that is, on one occasion when a mouse tried to move a piece of turquoise on his mandala plate. The mouse was trying desperately to push the turquoise but could not manage, so he called over another mouse to come and help him and together they tried to move it. That made Langri Thangpa smile..”
did i answer your question????
——————————-
Panos, MU waas basically MIA. wasted 2 houers of my time. I was really expecting a great match)
I was going to say yes (1), David, but actually: no… ;-).
Did you read the CV coming with the essays, was the main question. From which was coming another thought, which may go along that the EPF is not about beginners. What were the considerations, if any, on top of judging the strength and quality of the work (for example, so maybe: that the P has clearly a good foot, if not 2, in working in the profession already, etc… That sort of consideration)?
(1 I mean: )I think you did answer on the point of ethics, but I would never doubt you are nothing but unethical, not the point of my post. It seems your choices so far, are going quite along those of the profession, so maybe, as concerns the EPF I had in mind you’ d avoid adding again an accolade on people already nicely set up to succeed, with many awards. This was my intial reaction to seeing the first EPF entries. But that’s me, and with some extra reflexion on my part, I do understand where any of your choices may come from.
yes, it was: anything BUT ethical (not “nothing but unethical”). OF COURSE!!!
Last from me for many hours: grants are not awards, and no matter how one can get recognition, money may still be needed to get one’s photography or one’s project going. That was part of the reflexion I had after my first reaction.
I am one who reckons that the 10 should be announced, gives us a chance to check out their sites, see stuff in a more neutral perspective, some comparing and contrasting etc. Otherwise it’s like those TV shows………… and the winner is… ad break……. we would like to announce a ad break……. now these are the nervous nellies…………… ad break……… see you next week. All it achieves is pissing people off and getting them to go elsewhere.
It’s “Young and Restless” stuff mixed in with can you wait for this…………..one comment, no discussion, ………. buzz is a over bloated thread much to do about nothing/everything that just rambles on and has little to no direct connection with the images essays etc …………. and on
IMANTS,
Like all websites burn wants traffic and this is one way to get more traffic. Like it or not.
Honestly I think many people are more interested in who’s in the final then watching the essays. So if all were announced at the same time, burn wouldn’t get a long and stable traffic boost.
Bob. Dear Dear Bob
As I writer, I am sure you know the concept of the paragraph…. Help us out man!
I will have to go back and try to read that when my eyes are not so tired.
Hi Jim;
Thanks for your reply. I do see where you are coming from, and I think I can understand your cynicism. If all you are seeing is the bad, then it must colour your vision to some extent. This is one reason why I really value someone like Jim Nachtwey.
To be honest, that is why I chose to freelance rather than pursue newspaper work and its regular salary.
One of the reasons I chose this project was precisely because how I used to feel as a teen when continually told we were “not like we used to be etc”
I’m not young (46) and continually question my motives and ethics etc of this project. But like I asked if I can’t make a difference shooting the bad or the good now so it seems, what’s left to photograph? Cats and dogs and put them on photo.net or dpreview? :- )
One of the most open and inclusive people I have ever met is an 86 year old nun, who I once wrote about. She has become a good friend and I have learnt so much from her openness.
Through her I decided I didn’t want to become a crusty curmudgeon when I got older. I want to seek out the positive, but not wear rose tinted specs either. Jim; I urge you to go out and hang with some good “average” kids; you’ll be blown away by their acceptance.
When I was in my teens, I thought anyone over 30 was virtually a pensioner, which makes the acceptance I’m receiving from the kids even more pleasing. Anyway; I was always a pretty unconvincing rebel!!!
Oh; and this quote is often attributed to Plato, Socrates or Aristotle (nobody can really pin down who said it). Needless to say it’s been around a while!
“The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers”
Some new images uploaded to
http://www.lightstalkers.org/galleries/contact_sheet/18440
Jim; I might not agree with many of your views, but I enjoy your comments because they always keep me thinking. Take care.
Imants, I’m not sure exactly where you are going with this, but I hate that Burn is being monopolized with images from the EPF (as I’ve already said). With the many entries that were submitted, and thought outstanding, when will those who submitted photos to burn but were uninterested in the applying for the grant be seen again? Perhaps a site just for the EPF finalists would have been better.
In the end, though, it’s Davids web site and this is the way he wants to play it.
Ross, despite my cynicism (or perhaps as a result of it), I don’t shoot downbeat stuff anymore. I’m in a position that I can choose what I want to photograph and I choose not to sleep with a police scanner anymore. So I look for positive stories. And concentrate on those.
But I still see a lot of crap day to day. Goes with the gig.
couldn’t give a rat’s arse who wins, nothing wrong with announcing the 10 and showing the submissions.
,,,,,,,,,,,,, so the winner is announced in a few weeks and the people say thanks but no thanks to the site.
Sure I have a essay that sits in the smoulders in the vaults here if it is shown, well that’s good if not so be it. Lets hope it is about seeing other people’s work not the individual………..
Pete ;))))))))))….it’s gotta be the Bolano influence ;))))…i promise, soon, nice neat paragraphs :))…ok, gotta run, feed the young lion….mr. mom for 10 days….
Imants: that’s what i tried to say too, but my damn unformatted paragraphs (pete, herve and joe are spot-on when it comes to my run-on posts ;))) )…..better: announce 10 finalists up front, end of pressure/disappointment/excitement… and then go back show the essay’s 2/wk, this focuses on the work instead of the tempest of horseracing/misery….all names announced up front..undue suffering…of which, i will never understand…but ok, what’s done is done…btw, will put something in the mail for u too…will write u tomorrow….(dont buy the frank book, i will send u one once i get paid)…
IMANTS
Ha! Actually the NPPA national win occurs because of the regional win. (it is entered in the national contest automatically after winning 1st 2nd or 3rd. The AP wins were a result of just putting the photo on the wire service. And I didn’t even know there was a yearly contest.
And it was just one of those images that you enter.
What I was trying to say was that it is all too subjective to get wrapped up in. Yes it is nice to win. It has benefits… promotional mainly.
I was trying to address DAH’s comment “some photographers get totally disheartened if they are not “chosen”. The point being there is no reason to get disheartened.
As David said, it’s the work that is important. Not the award on the shelf… Although the World Press Photo award could come in handy in an emergency when you need to grate some Romano cheese over some pasta.
Jeez Pete one well off if the mind wanders to cheese on your pasta………. “award dreaming” we call it here a strange songline
Jeez Pete one is well off if the mind wanders to cheese on your pasta………
Poor man’s food.
David Alan, is it time for a new “selected photograph” please? Same one comment rule?
Can we take a moment to discuss Jan Adamski’s comment about the criteria for an “emerging photographer”. I think he makes a valid point, and one that I have also questioned. I think this needs some clarification. I’m 25 and one year out of college. I guess I consider myself a “attempting” to emerge photographer with a long road ahead. There has been some debate about whether or not the finalists so far can be considered “emerging” or whether they are just “mid-career” photographers. Considering that these are both subjective terms, I think that it might be good to make more specific requirements for the grant next year (assuming this continues) or maybe simply eliminating the work “emerging” altogether. Anyway, that’s just my 2 cents.
I had asked DAH sometime back about the EPF and whether I would be able to enter since I figured I had more experience (20+ years) than what I considered an “Emerging” photographer to be, but and he responded yes.
I was a bit taken aback but I understand his point when I comes to where I want to take my career. For a newspaper photojournalist, I am hardly emerging.
But as a magazine photographer on the level of Harvey, Allard, or even the recent finalist Michael Christopher Brown, “crawling out of the cave” may be a better phrase than “emerging” for me.
That said, I do see the point made by Jan Adamski. Maybe DAH can define the “emerging” part more?
I completely agree–it does all depends on whether you’ve reached your career “goal”. I’ve just been thinking about a comment DAH made a while back about getting some “nasty” emails after last year’s grant. I think he could save himself some headaches in the future by either being very rigid with specific requirements for the grant or making it a completely open free-for-all. Any vague terminology is going to give people fuel to argue.
GINA…
of course she was chosen…just not for the EPF
These days, with the explosion of digital photography, an emerging photographer seems to mean you are on your way towards approaching the level of the greats. . . Harvey’s level, the Magnum level. There are a huge number of young photographers right now working at a very high level. All the photographers selected for the Joop Swart Masterclass and Foam Talent etc. are just like all the famous great photographers, they are just 20-40 years younger! It is inordinately difficult to succeed. You have to not only pick the right projects but you also have to meet the right people and be able to schmooze as well. Above all you must have a vision and not be repeating what you have seen the greats do. I personally hedged a bet that I could do it my own way by going to Romania. I have failed and am returning to the US to find a job outside of photography. I simply cannot make ends meet.
I’m sure it is discouraging to a lot of young photographers to see the EPF finalists with all these credits and past awards. It is a question I’ve asked several times before and bothers me. As Davin said, it seems to mean those with credits, awards and working at an extremely high level of photography. If these people can’t get commissions to pursue their work with all that in their favor and need help as an “emerging” photographer, what hope is there for most young photographers?
Dear David,
I’ve sent you my e-mail, again just now.
Please check it out…
Have a nice time!
I’m working at clinic now. :)))
Bob Black…
firstly hello,
secondly, awesome! wonderful, brilliant words, thank you.
I read and felt compelled to reply, but now i try, i can’t…
i keep typing and deleting… typing and deleting…
which leads me to my bone of contention, the ability to express
ideas, feelings and vision in the written word.
Photographers put their energy and attention
into developing a visual form of communication and then after all that,
they must (in many situations) put it all into words to stand a chance!
I’m not talking about epf (dah is the exception) or magazine work but other grants,
awards, publishers, galleries etc. I struggle with this massively. I can express
myself very well face to face, when i can ‘feel’ the person,
it flows, I can tune in… after all my roots are in portrait photography…
but in writing, i find very awkward. But, as my friends in India would say
‘what to do’ or maybe that should type “Vatt to du”…
It seems ironic (or even wrong?) that we are making images, trying to develop the visual language,
and then we must justify or explain them with words BEFORE someone will view them.
peace and happiness (and please don’t hide your negs away in a draw…)
Sam
Davin Ellicson
I personally hedged a bet that I could do it my own way by going to Romania. I have failed and am returning to the US to find a job outside of photography. I simply cannot make ends meet.
——————————-
Kudos to you, Davin, it takes guts to admit this publicly, if either or not that is what eventually will happen. I do not know how many here, reading or writing, fall in your category (struggling with little coming their way, if one looks at the results frankly, that is making some kind of living with their vision, not filling commands), but I wish them the courage to answer the hard questions every man or woman must ask of themselves at some point in their lives, without false excuses.
Listen guys, rejection is rejection, there is too much turning around the pot in the last few posts about it, and trying to find a silver lining in it. There are none. Those who have done a bit of sport, competitively, will understand me, others too, i hope.
David is both a great photographer and a great human being. But if I was 30 or something, so ambitious with photography and he’s send me a letter I am in the 200, no matter how kind-hearted the rejection, there would be a voice inside of me saying: “I WILL SHOW YOU WHAT I CAN DO AND I DON’T CARE IF YOU ARE MAGNUM P or NATL GEO, HCB, or THE GREATEST P WHO EVER LIVED”. Either that, or just give up. If you do not have these guts, IMO, no need trying. You know what, that’s what David wants from you guys, no less.
IMO.
PS: Jim, obviously I think alike about the multple awards finalists. But from a point of view of having people with talent and skills up and ready to go, as Sean was last year, with the first EPF, again i want to say i understand where david is not only coming from, but consistent with his own viaion of what the EPF is about.
Rejection sucks, hey, I got the “you made the 200 but sorry not the top 10” letter and it was a bit of a disappointment although realistically I didnt expect to get a grant as the project Im doing doesnt really require a lot of funds and besides I dont know if what I submitted is good enough yet or ever will be. Oh well, doesnt mean Im gonna stop trying and stop shooting it or other projects. The only thing Im having some trouble with is that most of the people chosen so far arent really emerging photographers. I realize David is being liberal with the definition of emerging, but realistically how can working photographers with major awards on their resumes consider themselves energing? I realize the money is a temptation and you should get it wherever you can, but cmon….
Davin;
I know where you’re coming from. I went freelance at 44 in late 2007, from a steady reasonably paying job. It’s been really tough, but I don’t regret it. However if I had dependants that may be different. I also write my own articles which gives me two bites of the cherry.
Here in NZ the average rate per image in a “average” magazine is between $20-$75 per image. If I wasn’t receiving payment for words (average 30-40c) I wouldn’t be able to survive, simple as that. Often the word payment is over twice the image payment.
I’m not sure if you write at all, but it’s definately another string to your bow…
Cheers
Even so, Fairfax Media just sent out a form letter telling all their contributors that they will be reducing their payouts by 15% because of “rising prices and NZs low dollar”. Mind you they never paid more when the dollar was high!!! Their rates have been static since 2005.
I think David is preparing his answers and comments on how he came to choose these finalists, and maybe what he really means the EPF to become. I am just saying that David, to ask you to make it a totally new thread on DIALOGUE.
Rafal, Laura, and Jan maybe, Jim again, thanks for making me feel my own perplexity about the multiple awards finalists was not just about EPF party pooping. I have been thinking about this a lot, struggling with it, from understanding David’s POV, then thinking “down with the honor rolls laureates in the front row!”, then understanding David’s, then….Etc……
David,your turn….
TO ROSSY,
It was SOCRATES:
“The children now love luxury; they have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise. Children are now tyrants, not the servants of their households. They no longer rise when elders enter the room. They contradict their parents, chatter before company, gobble up dainties at the table, cross their legs, and tyrannize their teachers”
TO ALL,
I believe that some of you ,you should have been in aisle 2 “on the roll” TRAUMA CENTER…
LET’S CELEBRATE PHOTOGRAPHY
LET’S EMBRACE OUR DIFFERENCES
LET’S TALK THE VISUAL LANGUAGE WITHOUT closed eyes
I told you before …you are BURNIANS …YOU ARE ALL FINALISTS
P.S KATIE I send you love and good energy.I am sorry that I make you sick with all my demands to be my eyes and my mouth…Take it easy, rest …YOU DESERVE IT. Good enegia…you”ll be OK
oi punter (civilian) about 43 to go for the 777……… stay awake comrade
Herve:
Thanks for that. I have two more weeks before I hear about Massachusetts Cultural Council Artist Grants. If I was to receive one of those, then I would be able to pull through and continue on in Romania this summer. If not, then it’s a major change of plans. I am hoping that with a smaller talent pool (just Massachusetts) than what something like the EPF attracts I may be able to pick up a grant or at least a finalist designation!
Imants ,
did you submit?
IS THAT YOU DAVIN!
Congratulations…that means you won some green …Hmmmmm
“Breaking News! Davin wins at The Phodar Biennial 2009
May 11, 2009
I’ve just been informed that I have won a cash award at The Phodar…”
You DID EMERGE …I am proud!!!
No I don’t go for that sorta stuff , I finance my own exhibitions, told my clients to go away years ago, like teaching the visual arts especially kids so I do workshops, wrote a few textbooks, still do a tiny bit of stonemasonary/landscaping etc ……..it’s all dood fun
Imants,
you are my snapper and my kicker…
NO NEED TO REPLY
…….ah well you will have to put yourself back in……….
JOEEEE
Where are YOOOOOOOOUUUUUUUUUUUUU?
Imants,
YOU AUSSIE dog…see ya around doode!
Send my love to Mike:))))
Running
like BOB
RAFAL…JIM..DAVIN
exactly at what point should a photographer become a finalist or given a grant???
hmmm, let me think of the criteria you seem to suggest…somebody who is good , but not quite as good as someone else , but better than most , but well not too good but not too bad, well sort of in the middle, but better than middle but not really so good as to make everyone else feel not so good and discouraged???
please gentlemen , get a grip…
none of these finalists has a book…none have an exhibition set…none are collected…few have agents..they are just among the best of their generation of the ones submitted…..period…i see it that way and apparently so do others….
i just looked at the pictures…i had no idea of their past awards….nobody submitted a bio in advance, and it would not have mattered anyway….if a photographer in a particular generation is making much better work than the others, then they deserve what they deserve….photographers who blame their lack of success on schmoozing and lack of contacts etc etc for sure will never never rise…..
you might not see some of these photographers as emerging , but i sure as hell do…they are certainly not established as per stated above…you might be more emerging than are they..in which case this should give you something to shoot for …any other attitude will take YOU down..not the finalists ..not me….but you…think about it….
HERVE has it right…get real ..get on with it…anybody who cannot take a tiny bit of disappointment has no business in this business….i am in the process of mentoring at least 20 of the photographers i did not choose as a finalist and i will continue to do so….now, clear your heads please…
i wish i had the funding to give at least 10 more grants…i am working on exactly this and you know it….if you do not know this , then please go back and read at least 20 posts where i have described exactly my goals for you with regard to funding….can i promise it?? no …am i trying like hell, yes….so a bit of support from you gentlemen for whom i am trying to find support would be appreciated…thanks..
Rafal…you have made great progress from when we first met….i love your family work….it deserves attention…i have given it attention…you well know that i would and will help you publish a book..at the very same time i saw work which at this particular moment in time is just a bit more complete, relevant and/or advanced…you are not far off…very close…do not let this disappointment last.. ..shake it off…pick up your camera and begin anew…..i look forward to the results as always….
Davin…you know how i feel about your Romania work and it is on deck to publish….i am sorry to hear that you cannot make a living there….maybe all of us are going to have to become bartenders to be serious photographers…changes in our craft are moving swiftly…so be smart be strong….and when you get to New York, please stop by the studio and the soon to be Burn gallery…i welcome your ideas and look forward to your most recent work….
Jim..you sound for all the world like someone who tried to go to one level and did not make it…like the young cynics who blame everything but themselves, but now not so young…i would never never bring this up, but you are so vociferous in denouncing absolutely everything here, that i feel one must call a spade a spade just as do you….
and continuing to call it straight…many many thanks for the one comment per essay idea..so simple, obvious, and i just missed it..it works…you have given us the most constructive idea yet….i had struggled for months trying to figure the comment conundrum out ….a very big high five to you for this…
cheers, david
Sam, how brilliantly put.
There are some exceptionally eloquent, incisive, knowledable posters to this magazine, that leave me gasping in their wake.
It is a rare talent and also as Davin has pointed out, probably one of the facets that might be required to be a successful photographer in these tough times.
Kudos to you for getting on the road with the family, no mean feat. I have done a 9 month and 4 month trip with partner (no kids then) under commercial constraints and managed a few of those blissfull moments of “slow travel” and quite frankly itching to get out there again, with kids this time. I have a major project wich will take to every corner of the UK, that I am trying to get underway, but requires funding, I have approached the arts council and a few other funding bodies all with little response. I have written honest and direct proposals, it seems this is not good enough, you have to be able to speak “funding speak” eg be diplomatic and slightly vague and yet press all the buttons. It is extraordinary, the Arts Council didn’t even want to see any samples of work, just a written proposal. I have now found out there is a whole underground unannounced army of people who are skilled in writing proposals and take a cut of the funding you receive. This seems a little backward to me as surely the money should go the project, but hey this is capitalist country.
I think you might have alot in common with David Bowden who posts here alot.
Cheers
Ian
David:
I agree with all that you say. I’ve been venting some of my own personal frustration publicly when I shouldn’t. I have given myself two more weeks in Romania until I learn about this Massachusetts grant. . . maybe things will work out. From my own perspective all that you are doing with the EPF is great. Grants can be life saving and enable artists to survive. I just hope you do it again next year so I can apply!!!
I also ment to say…
That is why EPF and Burn is so refreshing and inspirational, the grant is for the work, not for the verbosness and you get direct feedback from the viewing public, and also help with editing/mentoring from the dedicated team here.
Basically none of the bulls**t
let go of expectations.
having done so
whenever something good happens
we will be content.
if things do not work out
we will not be disappointed.
either way
we will remain calm and balanced.
~ the buddha
That some achieve great success,
is proof to all
that others can achieve it as well.
~ Abraham Lincoln
David,
ofcourse I agree although the only thing I have a question about is when a photographer is emerging. Thats all. It just seems to me some of the finalists are way beyond emerging and have attained a lot of success already.
David,
also as I said, Im not very disappointed about not being selected, it wasnt something I was expecting anyway, and Im not really speaking for myself as I do not need a grant to photograph what I do, its not work that is expensive to produce as you know. Its just whats around me. I was 100% happy with being shown on Burn and the EPF was something fun to enter. So Im not unhappy with not being chosen and I dont have any regrets. I wouldnt want it perceived like that, I just found some of Jim’s points interesting and chimed in.
OK, I remember having Patricia laught out loud when I told her a good while ago, that there should not be just an emerging PF, but also an SPF.
That is, a…. submerged photographer fund, you know, for all those who did not, cannot and will never make it, never awarded, never been noticed, yet deserve a little tap on the shoulder and, oh I dunno, maybe a 50 bucks tip, 20 even would be OK!
:-))))))
ok,
so in no way am i disgruntled by this EPF and am very happy to have been included in the top 200,but i really do not understand the criterea of “Emerging” as all the finalist so far seem to be already quite accomplished,represented,award winning and their essays seem to have been in circulation for quite some time now? what the F@#k!! it seems that i am not the only one with these concerns,
i,and i think many others, would greatly appreciate and explanation as to what the term “emerging” means to Mr Harvey???
what happened to the unknowns that really are in need of assistance to further their work???
anon –
please read david’s comment above…
david alan harvey
May 28, 2009 at 12:09 am
exactly at what point should a photographer become a finalist or given a grant???
hmmm, let me think of the criteria you seem to suggest…somebody who is good , but not quite as good as someone else , but better than most , but well not too good but not too bad, well sort of in the middle, but better than middle but not really so good as to make everyone else feel not so good and discouraged???
please gentlemen , get a grip…
none of these finalists has a book…none have an exhibition set…none are collected…few have agents..they are just among the best of their generation of the ones submitted…..period…i see it that way and apparently so do others….
i just looked at the pictures…i had no idea of their past awards….nobody submitted a bio in advance, and it would not have mattered anyway….if a photographer in a particular generation is making much better work than the others, then they deserve what they deserve….photographers who blame their lack of success on schmoozing and lack of contacts etc etc for sure will never never rise…..
you might not see some of these photographers as emerging , but i sure as hell do…they are certainly not established as per stated above…you might be more emerging than are they..in which case this should give you something to shoot for …any other attitude will take YOU down..not the finalists ..not me….but you…think about it….
i wish i had the funding to give at least 10 more grants…i am working on exactly this and you know it….if you do not know this , then please go back and read at least 20 posts where i have described exactly my goals for you with regard to funding….can i promise it?? no …am i trying like hell, yes….so a bit of support from you gentlemen for whom i am trying to find support would be appreciated…thanks..
and continuing to call it straight…many many thanks for the one comment per essay idea..so simple, obvious, and i just missed it..it works…you have given us the most constructive idea yet….i had struggled for months trying to figure the comment conundrum out ….a very big high five to you for this…
cheers, david
sweet!!
(thanks for pasting the comment civilian…)
there are sooo many comments here that it really is hard to keep up if you only drop in every now and then…
sorry for dropping in ‘anon’ but i preferred to keep it that way with this comment, and by no means was i taking anything away from the finalist! they well deserve it !! it just seemed as though they already had the ball rolling is all…
ANON,
no problem, I am dyslexic …I know the frustration and don’t worry
you are ALL finalists in our eyes !!!
DAH,
Just some input regarding the EPF this year and how it’s been conducted and how the rules and conditions have changed throughout the year.
No mather how objective and good you are, choosing 10 finalists out of 1200 photographers must be pure torture. I don’t think that one person should do that alone because of the amount of work it requires and because it’s only down to ONE person in the end and their taste. At the beginning I thought a jury would choose the finalists. If you were doing it totally by yourself I think you should have chosen at least 30 (or maybe even 50) finalists like you declared earlier this year.
Dates changed many times around and I can’t complain about that, because I understand the workload and potential problem with getting the money required. Dates seems to change in most grants/comps going on right now.
Lastly you decided to drop the book dummy. Your call, but I understand if some didn’t like that decision, because many probably worked for that idea and made dummies or books.
Cheers
7.1 magnitude earthquake off Honduras coast
GOOD ENERGY TO ALL OF YOU !!!
Be strong
Remember David…. no good deed goes unpunished.
Push on. As I said, after thinking about it, I understood. Besides, like you say… what other way could you possibly do it?
David, I’ve never aspired to be a famous photographer. Just a working class PJ. And I achieved my goals. I get to shoot photos every day and I get paid every month for doing it. :)
And you, of course, can define “emerging” any way you like. It’s your grant. But the phrase is misleading to most people. And when they read all these credits and awards the folks have, they are confused. You see a book or gallery show as the specific goal of an “emerging” photography. Most of these folks would just like to make a living. It is incredibly hard to get even a living wage from photography. I read constantly of another Pulitizer prize winner or major award winning photographer who can’t make enough from photographery to keep doing it. And it is getting worse, literally, every day.
Who you choose to fund, though, is up to you. If it’s “future famous photographers,” then so be it.
OH MY GOD!
760 posts and they all seem to be whinging about the EPF or the choices of the finalists.
I have been away and its taken me days to get through only SOME of this, and I haven’t commented on the individual finalists because well I think they are all really great essays from really talented photographers.
And besides I didn’t want to get my head ripped off and I haven’t got the time to do replies.
Out of 1200 entries there is only one grant so why is everyone questioning the process of elimination for goodness sake?
I mean they are pretty big odds and well there are going to be NINE disappointed finalists after all of this as well, so for everybody that didn’t get into the final 200 or final 10 did you stop to think about that?
$10K is a lot of money to give out to one person so the sponsors are going to want to see the best available work and well if you didn’t make the cut, bad luck, try again next time.
I think David is a pretty brave man to have put this out there like this, you’d think that he was asking everyone to give him a tenth of their weekly salary. I mean for god’s sake the man has used his influence to get a new grant up and running- not an easy thing- and all everyone seems to be doing is crapping on about how ’emerging’ you have to be.
Perhaps everyone should realise that its HARD for everybody, it always has been and always will be- why does everyone think that the photographers that have been selected have some how had an easier run because they already had a few runs on the board? They have probably put their work in every available grant, competition, rung every magazine, done everything they could PLUS DOING THE PHOTOS to get their stuff seen and funded.
I have only one question and this is for you DAVID, have you ever thought about giving up trying to talk sense to this mob?
You are a far more patient person than most of the saints, I reckon your choices so far have been interesting, unique voices and I can’t wait to see the rest.
Cheers
Lisa
lisa, so you think the same small pool of photographers should get all the grants? Some of these essays have been shopped around for a couple of years on the awards and grant circuit. Not saying Harvey should not be able to set the criteria for his own grant. Of course he should. But why not share the wealth around a bit. And at least be clear that those competing will be competing against working pros and previous award and grant winners.
Clearly many people who entered were not aware that they would be competing against working pros and award winners (as long as they hadn’t published a book or had a gallery show).
Jim you still miss the point, maybe re-read David’s post that has also been reposted by civilian. Emerging covers alot of bases. Would you like to call it Newbie awards?
Jim,
Competing against working pros? So what? It’s part of the learning curve… Don’t worry.
Jim books are pretty easy to do these days and can be self funded as long as one gives up partying for a couple of months………. self funded exhibitions well you have to give up the demons such as the caspers and booze. I emerged from under a rock………… I am sure that doesn’t count.
JOHN VINK
Agreed!
It is a lot like golf or pocket billiards in my opinion. (I use these as an example since I play both)
You learn a lot more a lot faster when competing against someone much better than you.
Thesaurus
Adj. 1. emerging – coming to maturity; “the rising generation”
2. emerging – coming into existence; “an emergent republic”
Therefore,
WE ARE ALL FINALISTS. !!!
We have to BE UNITED …coming to maturity and coming into existence …
I am coming into retirement :))
VIVA thesaurus !
More Specifically:
“none of these finalists has a book… none have an exhibition set… none are collected…few have agents..”
i can’t help but think of Magnum ‘nominee’ Olivia Arthur as the model illustration of the ‘photographer-becoming’. She’s an illustration of a butterfly emerging right before our eyes. Is she famous right now? Hardly. Will she succeed in achieving what ever potential we hope she has? Magnum hopes so, they’ve taken a ‘bet’ out on her; they’ve invested in her.
i can’t help but think Michael Christopher Brown is a few years, a few accomplishments, and a few awards behind someone like Olivia, but maybe for a different agency, who knows. Here’s someone that maybe with some investment might get to a level where he’s producing visual information that we want to see, maybe even need to see. Michael Christopher Brown is one of the illustrators that we should be investing in and ‘if’, a big word there, he is able to keep ‘emerging’ we will be happy that he was helped here on Burn.
And that’s sort of the key to the puzzle: ‘investing’.
investing is so much different than ‘subsidising’. i get the funny feeling that some people think an award like this is about keeping things alive because times are hard and artists need help to make ends meet.
is the spirit of this grant not really to invest in potential talent and to some extent ‘endorse’ the candidates in the top ten and even in the top 200?
i’m certain i never read this to be the “welfare award for people that haven’t accomplished anything, but want to, and money could help”
plus, people keep forgetting, The entry to for this was Absolutely, Positively Free. Not a single person had anything really to lose and every single person had everything to gain.
even if you had absolutely no chance to win and you knew it, guess what? Simply getting your work in the order to submit it was a benefit to you whether you know it or not, so 1,200 people, i answer all your implicit feelings about the EPF (whether you know it now or not) and say. You’re Welcome!
i bet David and Anton wish they could say that the exercise was absolutely, positively ‘work-free’ as we all know that from a monetary point of view the energy David and Anton spent was given entirely For Free.
And let’s admit the obvious; investments are funny things in that the more information you have the better the investment, they even have a computable value for it called the information coefficient. Basically the more you know about the propensity for greatness the higher your confidence that this is a good investment.
so i don’t think it should come as a surprise that high-calibre work is being selected, it simply means that the investment criteria seems to be working. History has shown us that last year’s ‘investment criteria’ seemed to work as it seems already to be paying dividends with Sean; remarkable really, as we all know returns on investment are never certain.
So, is it a mere coincidence that David’s help making the first investment is already paying dividends? I Don’t Think So!
Ok, Civilian, feel free to translate this from ‘rant’ to brotherly-love ;-)
AND since MR.VINK is around,
DEAR MR. JOHN VINK,
My sincere apologies …I called you mate…but I have been advised that You are
A LEGEND like our MR.HARVEY…therefore
VIVA !!! Red wine on YOU!
Jim I have no time for this.
Let me ask you a question, when you hired and fired photographers for your newspaper did you not give the best and most suitable person with the most experience the job?
Or in the words of some famous actor/muso,
‘It took me ten years to be an overnight sensation’
JOE,
What part of ” I AM dyslexic” you don’t understand ?
Anyways, I said I like your writing …Like BOB’s and Katie’s and Davidb’s …
NOT like Wendy’s and Pano’s …
LOVE YOU ALLLLL
I will BE back…I am out of wine… I drink soda
I have only one question and this is for you DAVID, have you ever thought about giving up trying to talk sense to this mob?
——————————-
Lisa, I think its best not to insult people, don’t you?
As far as I see it the work so far has been amazing and I have no doubt David chose a great top 10. Not all of it has been to my tastes but all of it so far has been at a great standard and level and I’m sure all of the 10 finalists will deserve being funded to continue their work. So thats a great positive for Burn and a great raison d’etre for the EPF. I’m sure that it was a difficult task for all concerned to narrow it down to a top 200 and a top 10 and it will be a big job for the jury to select a winner. Hey, it is a fact of life that the field is a tough one and competition is harsh and a 10K grant is a big piece of pie so not being in the top 10 is no reason to despair. Jim, I think that some may feel a bit disappointed, I did, and yes I do think that some of the guys chosen arent exactly emerging, although thats my perspective, Im sure David sees emerging as a much broader term.
Joe – spot on.
I can’t believe how much bitterness there is here, when DAH, Anton and others have put in so much UNPAID work bringing this grant and forum about. It’s just tedious
We can’t all be good enough to win competitions, grants or even to make a living from taking photos…and a lot of it will come down to subjective choices, like everything in life.
But why this sense of entitlement?
JOE well said and well thought out, of course its investing in someone giving them $10K. And of course you need to be able to trust that photographer to do the job with it. Remember it is a job, you might love doing it but you have to be professional to be paid and a large sum of money this is as well.
CIVI haven’t managed to read a lot of you but you are quite hilarious aren’t you!
MR VINK as always concise and to the point. (Wish I could do that!)
Have we been told who is in the top 200? Not that we have to or even should be told but someone above mentioned not being in the top 200 and I was just curious if I had missed something. Thanks
I’m certain that many who entered this competition would tell you it was far from free, even if there was no entry fee required.
Magnum photographers get a lot of benefit from the agency, but they pay through the nose for it! In these times, it will be interesting to see if the benefits are ultimately worth the cost (when speaking of nominees). (Taking the risk of getting another lecture from David about Magnum. ;)
RAFAL
I think its best not to take things to personally, don’t you?
LISA ,
You got to be a Legend to be always concise and to the point…
Joe …oh yes …what can I say about Joe…he is a kicker!
P.S Lisa good to see you around…we have missed YOU
We need more lady power
how come you haven’t read my postings?? :)
Are y dyslexic too…?:)
@valery
i’ve received an email from dah where he said that i am on the top200. i think at this point that everyone know how is who…
who is who :P
Just a word or two from the oldest “emerging” photographer here:
We are not talking about youth or need or awards won or numbers of photos published or desire or good ideas or ability to articulate those ideas in words or grant-writing skills or under-the-table politics or knowing the juror(s) or travel costs involved in your project or whatever positive/negative comments you’ve posted here on Burn or what “box”/genre your work fits or doesn’t fit into…
The Emerging Photographers Fund is all about THE WORK.
So simple, folks. Simple that is except for the man who first came up with this idea, busted his butt getting donations to fund it, talked his iconic photographer friends & publishing buddies into serving on its jury, and has put in more hours than anyone can imagine looking at/choosing/preparing to publish the essays of 10 finalists out of 1200 entrants.
And what kind of thanks does he get? To paraphrase an old truism, no good deed goes uncriticized. At least on Burn.
Patricia
CIVI
MMMMWWWWWAAAAHHHHHAAAAAAA!!!!
Dyslexic maybe, but dyspeptic for sure!
Davin…
i feel your pain and the pain of others, so i wish to tell you a story
My grandmother was a, in essence, a single mother raising my father in a time and age when even the word, let alone the notion, of ‘single mother” had no meaning. My grandfather was a oil tanker captain for Sun Oil. He was at sea for 9 to 11 months of the year, returning home every 4 or 5 months for a two week period. My father’s father was for most of his life, essentially, a ghostly figure, a character of literature, who returned from the depth of distance to roost and check in on his family and then he would sail away. In an age, the 50’s, of domesticity and ‘perfect families’, my grandmother struggled to raise a child, after the death of her second son, essentially alone. She was a photographer. She was the first woman in Philadelphia to own and operate her own camera store. She sold cameras and film, developed and printed pictures for people and toiled away at the craft that she so richly loved. When i was growing up, i could not separate the image from my grandmother from two things: letters/postcards and cameras. when she would visit, she would pull out her slides and projector and show us her photographs, long before Nan Goldin, her photoshows were the beginning of my photographic dreams. Even now i cannot separate in my mind and memories what were my real memories (taiwan, new york, pennslyvania) and what were her slides projected on the wall. Later, when i was in high school and college, she would send me letters (and postcards) what seemed like nearly every week. I too wrote her long letters (unparagraphed) and spoke to her about many things that at the time i was struggling with: books, ideas, school, girls, god, whatever. She was a bedrock of strength. In our family we joked about her always photographing us, everyone, every moment, in a world and time when most people did not have cameras or photograph their lives/families, but in the most specific ways.
When she died, 1,000’s and 1,000’s of slides were left to my father. Among all these slides, boxes and boxes and boxes and boxes, my father kept a few, the rest were either donated to the local library or were thrown out. A year after her funeral, along with my brother, i went through the slides that my father had kept and i was heartbroken and devasted. Extraordinary, beautiful, haunted pictures, of her life, my grandfather’s life, my father’s life and later our life. I looked at these slides at a time when i had just left california to return to florida and i’d just started to make photographs ‘with seriousness'(whatever that means). No one knows her work, but my family. To this day, i think often of both her work and the example she set forth. She photographed not for aspiration, not to be a Magnum photographer, not to make books or have exhibitions, but because it was her great love and passion and she saw it as her life’s calling, after being a mother. These pictures and her love of making pictures is what still lives inside my own photographic practice. When i looked at Nan Goldin’s extraordinary book ‘the beautiful smile’ last night, i kept thinking of both my grandmother and my wife and all these comments that have come up now. There is no competition in photography except for those fools and deluded ones who give a fuck about that nonsense. Struggling to live and raise a family, feed your lives and your passions, is profoundly difficult, regardless of the manner of life or profession. It sometimes shocks me how deluded the photo community is, including how self-absorbed and deluded I am as well. If we are in this to earn prizes and fame and recognition, it will be a profoundly hollow life. That is not to say that each of us doesnt feel bereft by struggle. We all do. As i said before, i’ve personally spent the last 4 weeks trying to keep my family afloat, financially and emotionally, dealing with this difficult time. But people are suffering everywhere and in truth, i personally do not want to live a life that is defined by the photo world. I find it, quite often, obnoxious, empty and catty. who won what, who published what, who knows who: all tripe.
I remember sitting in a cab with you in NY and trying to fill you with joy and passion. I will remind you of this again. You are a smart person, a person filled with concern and compassion and a hope to make a difference in this world, and for me that means more than whether or not you win jack shit. If the ambition is to be acknowledged, and ALL of us need that, it will not sustain itself. You will be forgotten quicker than snow on hot asphalt. I’ve watched photographers come and go, people fuck each over continually, hurt and bitch and compete and for what? You are a good man Davin and your Romanian work is strong and humane and that is what, if possible, must compell you. You must not give up. If a lack of money precludes you from living in romanian then adjust do the work you were set out to do. I, personally, would love to shoot 10 rolls of film a week (yes, a week, that’s a dream), but I cannot. If i shoot 1 roll, i consider myself fortunate. for my birthday, i received 10 rolls, and i was the happiest mother fucker on this planet. those 10 rolls will last me the summer and that’s all i need. I hope that you have success with the Mass grants, but please know that if you fail at securing funding, there are still venues to make something for yourself. In a world increasingly filled with struggle and rancor, you must see the distance more clearly. If you cant make it, then turn that big, beautiful heart of yours into something that will alight this world….
and this: one of my heroes, again, unknown, self-financed, alone, made an extraordinary body of work…and only know gets recognition…he made books by hand (as have I, as has my wife) because that’s all he could do…and what glorious books they are….you should look at his work and his life to get inspiration. I, personally WOULD NEVER get inspiration from the results of a contest…but, instead, the way people work and the work they produce…10 out of 1200..what does this mean?…nothing…the 4 finalists and the remaining 6 I am certain produce great work and ok, the world is filled with brilliant work…just do not desist….if it means that much too you…
here is kyoshi Suzuki, a lesson..
http://www.noorderlicht.com/eng/shop/suzuki/index.html
http://www.noorderlicht.com/eng/fest99/wonder/suzuki/index.html
and again: that small white box of my grandmothers slides…
the world is bigger and more essential than this…
do not loose heart
bob
Shoot! I did it again. Forgot to change back to my own name ;=(
Patricia
JOE…
Exactly!
I guess it was inevitable that there would be some disgruntlement among the masses. But I think everyone needs to move on. This is David’s vision and David’s show. He is the director here and we are the cast. And he can cast his show any way he chooses.
And lets be fair here. We all come to this site and listen to what David has to say because we respect his work, his thought processes and his generosity. I would say that if someone is seriously unhappy with what is showcased on this site or what has been picked for EPF, then maybe they need to move on. Especially after the questions and comments that they have made have been addressed and answered. (over and over)
I think the constant sniping is bringing down the spirit of the work and commentary here. And many are tired of sifting past the flotsam to get to the constructive discussion that exists in the posts.
Yes, constructive criticism is good and welcome. Intelligent dialog over he pros and cons is excellent and a learning tool. But some of this is just going on ad nauseam.
And Jim, it think it is insulting to imply that people here are looking to become famous photographers. I believe that most SERIOUS photographers are most interested in the work and the process and having the work mean something to someone. Even if it just themselves. FAME is usually last on the list.
I am happy that you have managed to do what you have always wanted. I am happy, as I am sure everyone here is, that you have achieved your goals.
Now would you mind letting the rest of us achieve ours? Some of us are not yet done!
Magnum photographers get a lot of benefit from the agency, but they pay through the nose for it! …………… shit ai I should have entered so I could put a 10 grand deposit on a magnum position……….
BOB
Ok, there are paragraphs there… a few anyway… (GRIN)
The comment posted 5-6 comments above this, the one under Ross Nolly’s name belongs not to him but to Patricia Lay-Dorsey.
Thanks…
Pete, actually I posted that most people here are probably just trying to pay the bills. I think it is David who is trying to fund future “famous photographers.”
I’m not an enemy of excellence, but if the same small pool of photographers are getting the awards and grants shopping around the same essay to each one, you end up with the “future famous photographers” club. If these folks are getting funding and recognition from other sources, or are working pros, look to others who are also excellent but not getting the recognition. Why not?
PATRICIA
You are ’emerging’ from being Ross?
Heheheheheheheheheheh….
NOW ,that I got my wine, I can see clear :
What my brother JIM is trying to say is that since BURN is quite A unique place,
let’s have the UNEXPECTED !!!!
Let’s Mr.Harvey be THE 21st century ROBIN HOOD !!!
LET’S GIVE A CHANCE TO THE REAL UNKNOWN,
UNCOVERED,
UNDISCOVERED,
ARTIST WITH CAUSE,
THE RAW ,REAL LIFE GO GETTER …
THE SURVIVOR,
THE FIGHTER …
Let’s Give a Chance to the ONE who will be “dead” without Your HELP…
Hmmmm…
I will switch to beer for tonight !!!
Don’t forget to love …unconditionally
“David, I’ve never aspired to be a famous photographer. Just a working class PJ. And I achieved my goals. I get to shoot photos every day and I get paid every month for doing it. :)”
“Who you choose to fund, though, is up to you. If it’s “future famous photographers,” then so be it.”
Maybe it is just the way I read it… If I misinterpreted I apologize.
Now on the subject of the same photographers getting grants……
“The Peabody Museum of Archeology & Ethnology at Harvard University announced yesterday that Alessandra Sanguinetti is the 2009 Robert Gardner Fellow in Photography, the second $50,000 award Sanguinetti has received this year. Last week it was announced that the photographer, who is based in New York and Buenos Aires, was awarded the National Geographic Magazine Grant for Photography. Sanguinetti received the grant to continue her “The Life That Came” project documenting the lives of two Argentine women who are cousins.
The National Geographic grant will fund her documentation of sustainable agriculture and transgenic, or genetically modified, crops in Argentina, the United States and Canada.”
Two major projects and two grants. Sounds like a lot of hard work and hustle to me.
“if the same small pool of photographers are getting the awards and grants shopping around the same essay to each one, you end up with the “future famous photographers” club.”
How is this different from the same pool of “great photographers” getting the jobs? Maybe if their not getting them they need to work harder.
Lisa, now maybe I’m simply submerging, to use Herve’s expression…
Patricia
@dop in pop
I received an email saying “many of you are in the top 200 essays that I would love to publish on Burn this year” and not That I was in the top 200……. so I guess that means I am not??? bummer oh welllll:((
Lisa ,
let’s give our Pat 50 bucks tip for the submerge :) joke
you, only 20 bucks to buy some pepto…:)
LOVE YOU BOBB you took my eyes out but I deserve it ! JOE is that consider a flirt?
MARTIN BRINK…
you have indeed identified the daunting task of choosing….first, please consider that no respectable jury is going to go through 1,200 submissions….nor does the jury i have in mind even want to look at 25 finalists….when Anton and i went back and forth and back and forth and very carefully looked and looked (pilot, co-pilot) , 10 seemed just right….
i do think that there is either going to be me choosing , or three or four interns or ?????……at least this way the folks submitted know exactly who did the choosing , the narrowing…nobody normally ever knows who actually does the winnowing in any other grant…..here they know whose house it is to throw rocks through the windows…whoops, sorry i suggested the thought!!!
last year i caught a lot of hell for choosing Sean Gallagher all by myself…..i just had my little blog and no structure of any kind , so i just did it…Sean has continued to show us he was a good choice..could someone else have been a good choice too?? sure…but i will stand by Sean…i will stand by these finalists that everyone seems to be questioning and we haven’t even seen half of them yet!!! ahhhh, human nature….laughing…
in any case, all of this criticism goes with the territory i suppose…i created the magazine, i raised the money, i selected the finalists, i of course deserve to catch all the —- so be it…
by the way, and i know you did not bring it up, but some have suggested we are spending way too much time on EPF programming as if it was an interruption…hmmmmm…normally we run two essays per week…now we are running three…the singles are non-existent at the moment to allow for a respectful viewing of the essays…and nobody wants their single in their as some kind of “time filler”…thanks for your patience…
oh yes, the book dummy concept…we did drop that when the reality set in….and i am so so happy we dropped it…THAT would have sent us straight to the asylum and we would have been the source for somebody’s good photo essay next year!!! laughing now hysterically….the logistics of that became daunting…nobody should have made a book dummy anyway …read the text please…”finalists may be asked to prepare a book dummy”….we dropped the book dummy idea long before we chose the finalists….that was never for all submissions…but we have also learned from all of this that few photographers actually read the instructions…still laughing hysterically….
PATRICIA..CIARA…JOE
many thanks for your words of insight and explanation…..one would think all of this obvious, but i guess not so…i of course knew going into this that mud would be flying….that is life and human nature….i will take it….editing/choosing is never for the feint of heart……
oh yes, i will be seeing all of you soonest for editing and some good times too….the very bright moments in our craft far outweigh the sometimes darker ones…
be of good cheer..
peace etc…david
Hey David, Did you see my email about the book swap?
CAN I HAVE THE 800 POST to my self…
IT’s our PARTY and I love it !!!
VIVA GEMINIS !
Anton a civilian told me that you are one of them ???
YES, YES.YES, Look IMANTS !!!
You got the 666 post I got the 800.
VIVA FOTOGRAFIA !!!
PETE….
i will get to your proposal now….
funny nobody ever seems to respond to the fact that i am trying like hell to fund even more photographers….EPF is just the beginning…not an end…anyway, you get it…thanks….
Some people obviously think Rome WAS built in a day. Everyone knows good things come to those who wait….
I am tempted to let the cliches flow on, but work calls!
A RANT, A RANT, MY KINGDOM FOR A RANT…….
As I write this, the boys from our happy little burg’s highway department, who are as cheerful a bunch of vandals as you’d ever care to meet and never let anyone tell you any different, are very busily and very loudly digging a hole in the sidewalk right outside my office window. I am not sure why they are doing this; I really don’t pay as much attention to local politics as I used to; so if what follows makes little sense to you, please remember that I am having more than a little difficulty hearing myself think at the moment. Like I said, I don’t know why they are ripping a hole in the sidewalk; setting a bear trap comes immediately to mind, although I don’t think there are any bears in this neck of the woods. Not that there couldn’t be, mind you; I’m sure that bears would be just as welcome here as any other species of Flora and Fauna, once you bailed those two out of the county jail and promised the judge that you would do your best to keep the two of them reasonably sober and away from the senior boys until after the high school graduation parties and the Fourth of July. It’s been a while since we’ve had a bear wander through, that’s all. In any case, I’m going to go out on a limb here and say that having the highway department guys rip up the sidewalk is a good thing every now and again—it gives them something to do and anything that keeps public employees busy is always a good thing. Idle hands are the devil’s playground, as our grandmothers used to say, and many a good public servant has found himself behind the metaphorical 8-ball because their idle minds led them to do foolish things like finding ways to cut red tape, reduce public expenditure, or running for the county legislature on a reform ticket. No one will ever know just how much pain and suffering some good civil service families could have been spared because no one made sure that the breadwinner was doing something constructive like filling out dozens of meaningless forms in triplicate. I’d also like to think that there’s some point in the highway department digging a hole in the sidewalk, but a point is often beside the point here in our happy little burg.
For example, not that you would know it looking at it now, but trees once lined Main Street, yes they did, but that, as the song doesn’t go, was once upon a time, not so long ago. They were nice trees, or so I thought, but clearly not everyone thought the same way as I did about them, because if they did, the highway department wouldn’t have cut the lot of them down and turned them into mulch. People were stunned and amazed and outraged afterwards, and well they should be, but afterwards doesn’t do anything for the trees, does it? I must say, though, that I admired the speed with which the trees disappeared. The City Council, as wise and civic-spirited a group of solons who ever peculated on the public’s dime, voted to cut the trees down on a Tuesday evening and a week later, the trees were gone, thereby setting what must be a bureaucratic speed record of sorts. At the next City Council meeting, of course, it was clear that the fertilizer and the fan had met, as angry citizens and sunstroked business owners descended on City Hall in their hundreds and thousands to voice their outrage at Main Street’s deforestation and subsequent lack of shade. Our lawgivers, unaccustomed to dealing with any but a completely somnolent citizenry, promptly called the gendarmes to clear away the crowd using moral suasion, truncheons, and machine gun fire, if necessary, and to eliminate any evidence of the crowd’s exercise of their First Amendment rights to petition the government for a redress of grievances, lest said exercise breed unwelcome imitators, whilst they, the authors of those same grievances, promptly dove out the windows, ran out the doors, scooted down the fire escapes, and in general made for any exit they could find, heading for the hills as fast as their edematous little legs could carry them, in much the same way as the frightened customers of a twenty dollar bordello try to find some way out of the house before the vice squad finally breaks down the front door.
The worst thing about the denuding of Main Street, I think, is that the highway department did not take away the whole tree. Stumps, and ugly stumps at that, now line nearly the whole length of Main Street. These stumps are somewhere between three and four feet high and many of them bear a more than passing resemblance to erect phalluses. This is not, I am sure, the sort of image that the local chamber of commerce or the county tourism board wants to present to the world at large. There was even a reasonable explanation for the arboricide: the trees had grown too big, they were interfering with the sewer system and pushing up the sidewalks, making it unsafe to walk, and the highway department was replacing those old and dangerous shade trees with young and not so dangerous trees that did not dig up sewers, sidewalks, or provide shade on a hot and sunny day. This explanation might have made some sense to someone if the new trees the highway department planted to replace the old trees had been alive, but they weren’t, and some unreasonable citizens steadfastly refused to see the logic behind killing old but healthy trees in order to replace them with new young trees that were already dead. There’s no pleasing some people, of course, but the highway commissioner allowed that there might be something to this argument, and promptly had the new dead trees taken away and sent to the very shredder that had reduced the old trees to splinters, leaving most of Main Street lined with the same old stumps. There is an old Roman city in Turkey that has its main thoroughfare lined with statues of snapped off phalluses as well, a concept that hurts just thinking about it, but if I am not mistaken those statues served a religious purpose, whereas Main Street’s long line of stumps makes our happy little burg look as though we were the victims of a particularly puritanical sect of pious beavers, and they serve no greater purpose than to be the source of cheap jokes for less fortunate municipalities, convenient restrooms for the canine population of our happy little burg, and as unofficial billboards for local rap groups advertising their gigs.
So what, you must be asking yourself at this point, is the larger purpose to the highway department digging a large hole in the sidewalk? This is a question of deep philosophical import, although, I must confess, I prefer the variant that goes, why are those morons digging up the sidewalk while I am trying to work here? This is a much deeper question, based, as it is, on my personal dilemma. I realize that one should not try to address general philosophical questions with appeals to personal experience, unless you’re an empiricist, which makes it all right, or a Democratic candidate for almost any office you can think of, even if such appeals tend to come across on television as morally greasy and politically insincere.
They’ve stopped. Well, that was nice of them, wasn’t it? Having ripped a fairly good-sized hole in the sidewalk, the guys from the highway department are now drinking coffee and admiring the hole they’ve just torn in the concrete. Men should take pride in their work and, as pointless holes in the sidewalk go, this one is positively beautiful, an avatar of complete holesomeness. It’s an excellent hole; I must admit, however, that I am no expert—I just know what I like. This hole seems to be free of the taint of postmodernism that afflicts so many pointless holes nowadays and echoes back to an earlier, more heroically American age of pointless holemaking, before such philosophical fads as existentialism and all the rest of the French school complicated everything that went into the making of a good hole. A hole is a hole is a hole, as Richard Burton says in Where Eagles Dare, but you wouldn’t know that once you’ve started listening to the eggheads turn a simple hole in the ground into a complex metaphor about man’s search for God and philosophical truth in an universe almost totally devoid of sugar-free doughnuts.
Oh hell, they’re at it again. And this time, they’ve got a backhoe with them, so they can dig more pointless holes in the sidewalk at an ever-faster clip. Mechanization is a wonderful thing, isn’t it?
CIVILIAN,
This is the dyslexic version: the jackhammers outside are driving me nuts.
Don’t get me start Mr.Harvey… :)
Every BURNIAN is with you is just they need to LOVE them
BUT check this out:
lisa hogben
May 28, 2009 at 5:47 am
“… I mean for god’s sake the man has used his influence to get a new grant up and running- not an easy thing- and all everyone seems to be doing is crapping on about how ‘emerging’ you have to be…”
I CAN CUT AND PASTE AT LEAST 10 more BURNIANS who wrote the same…KATIE,MYGRACIE,DAVIDB,JARED,ANDREWB…
VIVA !
OIME,
AKAKY ,where have you been ?
I will be the first to buy YOUR ST.PATRICK’S DAY BOOK !!
I love you .
P.S DO you really believe that I will read the above?
Anyways, I will try !
Ian Aitken
“That is why EPF and Burn is so refreshing and inspirational, the grant is for the work, not for the verbosness and you get direct feedback from the viewing public, and also help with editing/mentoring from the dedicated team here”.
Hi Ian
exactly…
yes, travel with children, if you can, go for it. We had a life changing experience.
I think it’s one of the most wonderful things a family can do together, especially if
you have young children. They learn so much, you learn from them. It’s priceless.
I don’t know how old your children are, but those ‘golden years’ seem to fly by…
I can’t believe Uma is almost 10…
as far as raising money to shoot projects… I would say just try and shoot it anyway.
I know life ain’t always that simple, but ‘where there’s a will there’s a way’…
I think the most important thing is to have a vision and get shooting…
best of luck to you and thanks for taking a peep at my stuff
AKAKY
I have so missed you!
Akaky:
That is some funny shit!
Sam,
you are so right, Times are hard at the moment, so instead of falling into the abyss that I was, I am working on a few self initiated projects at the moment, no money, no art director, no client, no brief except for my own, no time scale (but I have to be carefull with this as they could just roll on and on). Not shooting specifically for the portfolio. It is so liberating and enjoyable and quite frankly it shows in the work, I am enthusiastic when I tell people and the work is getting noticed and could potentially end up as a touring exhibition. All this from nothing, how satisfying.
Kids are 6 and 2.75, as things have been quiet I have spent alot of time with them, wow I have learnt alot, and relearnt to have fun. I am no longer the lone freelancer I have my family behind and always with me.
Cheers
Ian
SAM…
just took a quick look at “Postcards from Home”…nice, loose, freestyle, sentimental (in a good way)..i did not have time to run through all of your work, but i thought this certainly captured your most beloved treasures….thanks…
IAN…
times tough for all of us….i am scrambling too right along with everyone else…it will be interesting to see how the outlets will settle in…the whole concept of commissions and library sales has changed even in the last few months….and as you and Sam have both pointed out, family makes you center your values and priorities….do i see you in june??
cheers, david
AKAKY…
funny….or sad…..but funny….
i have a street maintenance story too , but no time to tell it….besides i cannot write as you….
many thanks for the levity…
cheers, david
David, you certainly will see me in June, I am trying to squeeze in a trip to portugal, a trip to turkey and getting an exhibition hung, before then. I am on a mission to get things back on track.
I will be dying for a pint by the time you get over here.
Cheers
Ian
Wherever you are don’t forget to say I love you …
Just say this loud… it can make a difference …Express yourselves
IAN …I love the 2.75 …you are blessed !!!
LET’S LOVE and LAUGH hysterically like DAH !
ANTIO …See you all soon…Blink as much as you want …you are a grown ups
Civi, the .75 is very very important
BOB…
thanks for your post to Davin..right on….
you brought up one little point at the end which is certainly what i am exploring now myself….HAND MADE BOOKS…now, that is the use of photography at its very best….i have started with a variety of materials, resin, wood, copper,glass, and am playing….i think i can do two per year if i really focus on it….the problem with a hand made book is that after all the work that goes into it, you hate to part with it….photographers, musicians, writers get to hang on to their work…sculptors, painters must part with their work…and so it goes with the hand made book if collected….
cheers, david
To speak gratitude is courteous and pleasant, to enact gratitude is generous and noble, but to live gratitude is to touch Heaven.
Johannes A. Gaertner
ERICA…
perfect…..
My two cents worth…
A few years ago I entered the Art of Photography show, based in San Diego where I am from. A curated gallery “competition. Definitely nothing like the EPF. The year I entered was it’s first year and the curator was Arthur Ollman, then of the Museum of Photographic Arts. There were 10,000 entries and of the 100 single images that were hung, two of them were mine. I was extremely honored to have been selected to hang along with some “beyond emerging” entrants such as Ron Haviv and Gerd Ludwig.
A bunch of my San Diego friends did not get images hung and grumbled about it since they were friends of the producer of the show…”Why wasn’t it limited to local photographers?”
“Why were top pros allowed to enter?” etc. but of course it was/is his show to do with as he pleases.
So far I’ve said nothing new here but the point I want to make is that this show has become more and more well known because of the way the producer has run it. As far as the EPF everyone is saying how it’s David’s grant to do with as he pleases (some grumbling as they say it, some not) but more than “allowing” David his freedom, why not TRUST that David knows what he’s doing and that ultimately this is only the start of something much bigger that most of us can’t comprehend yet and that (among us on burn at least) only David is capable of pulling off.
Ian…
sounds like a familiar scenario… and yes, very liberating.
DAH…
thanks for the feedback, it’s much appreciated…
i find shooting the family quite difficult as so many times it leans toward
the cheesy (sentimental in a not such a good way – or what i call ‘shots for grandma’)
it’s difficult to be objective shooting your children… anyway i’m beginning to branch
out now and get more of the great community we live amongst.
cheers
Sam
DAH
just seen your post about hand made books…
if it’s of any interest to you I know an Indian artist that makes
superb hand made books, and in sizable print runs too. He works with an
Indian publisher called ‘Tara’ based in Chennai,they’ve produced award winning
books with Dewi Lewis, they’re at Frankfurt every year and the handmade books
they produce are beautiful…
http://www.tarabooks.com/about/handcrafted-books/
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om6i3enGZ8c
you can probably contact Tara via the website but if you want to contact
Arumugam direct i can find his details for you
all the best
Sam
DAH
just seen your post about hand made books…
if it’s of any interest to you I know an Indian artist that makes
superb hand made books, and in sizable print runs too. He works with an
Indian publisher called ‘Tara’ based in Chennai,they’ve produced award winning
books with Dewi Lewis, they’re at Frankfurt every year and the handmade books
they produce are beautiful…
http://www.tarabooks.com/about/handcrafted-books/
you can probably contact Tara via the website but if you want to contact
Arumugam direct i can find his details for you
all the best
Sam
sorry for the double post, i’m guessing my post is held because i put two links on it…
Sam,
Thanks for the link. As I believe we’ve discussed previously, Chennai is my “hood” as well as Pondy.
I will look them up when I’m there next…hopefully Winter 2009.
I have only one question and this is for you DAVID, have you ever thought about giving up trying to talk sense to this mob? You are a far more patient person than most of the saints
—————————–
How about a little more valid input and less sycophantry on BURN, sometimes. Lisa, it just looks like you came back just to pay your respects to the master of the abode. Nauseating… (your comment, not you)
There is a $2 charge for using words like “Sycophantry” instead of the proper “sycophancy.”
Seems appropriate.
CIARA:
how much bitterness there is here
——————————-
Much? What world do you live in, Ciara? I can’t believe how much liveliness, involvement and enthusiasm there is on BURN! You are so negative, so…. Bitter! ;-)))))
But why this sense of entitlement?
————————————–
Entitled to what?
PATRICIA NOLLY ;-)
———————-
And what kind of thanks does he get?
OK, I think this is the problem. First, let me tell you so all misunderstanding about ungratfuleness ceases, once and for all: if David were to ask me to help him with the EPF, sending mails, cutting lemons, anything, right now I would have time to do it and I would do it. David knows by now that many of us are compeletely ready to help with BURN as well.
Frankly, until I get to help in some fashion, I will never be able to thank david for what he’s brought to us. Just saying it reeks too much, as I just wrote, of sycophantry (which is not gratefulness, as Erica’s wonderful quote pointed).
I/we do know that what David is doing, with RT, BURN and EPF, is absolutely a great plus for photography, and I understand your POV is that in regards to this, we should just constantly celebrate, sing hymns of praises, and never complain about anything, or never voice our perplexity or disagreeing (not bitterness, Ciara) about some of his M.O. or choices.
For me, voicing one’s differenecs is ABSOLUTLY NOT a sign of ungratefulness. And on the contrary, a sign that I give a damn. On the other hand, David did put a lot of work on just about everything lately, including pruning roses!!!, so I feel we should now, even give him a little peace of mind, and less a pice of our mind.
There is a $2 charge for using words like “Sycophantry” instead of the proper “sycophancy.”
———————————————-
Thanks Jim. It took me a while to ndrestand what the word means, and apparently a little while more to spell it right! :-)
Well, Herve, here in the backwoods of East Texas we usually just say apple polisher. Saves us from using up our lifetime allotment of two big words.
To anyone who has posted questioning the definition of “emerging” or the motives and process behind the selected essays…
I submitted 3 essays to the EPF, none of which made it to the finalists. Like everyone else, I’ve put much time and energy in these bodies of work and I was NOT happy to not make the cut.
Now, what did I lose by participating?
A few days preparing the submissions… something that was helpful to me in itself. Having to rethink and reedit an essay is always a positive thing in my mind, and any external force that pushes me to do some of the less inspiring parts of my process (like scanning, editing, darkroom printing, etc…) is always welcome.
What did I gain?
To put my work in front of one “legendary” photographer FOR FREE…
I get that almost not 2 of us are in the exact same place in our development as photographers, but let me share this with you…
The past year I spent all the money I could spare entering some of the competitions, grants and calls for exhibition proposals I’ve being finding again and again in the CVs of pretty much all the photographers whose work I like. I had never before competed like that and at first each and every rejection was like a small death for me. Now that I’m through with this exercise for a while, and I can look back on it from a distance, I can see that I didn’t do all that bad. 1-in-4 or 1-in-5 success rate is acceptable to me. I consider the whole thing a valuable experience, BUT at what cost (both time and money wise) and with what measurable gain?
Coming back to the EPF, none of us really lost anything in participating. This was, in fact, a free service provided to us by a caring established photographer. I don’t know of any other person of similar status doing anything comparable. If you do, please correct me.
Finally, it looks like there are more grants, commissions and other opportunities in the make for those of us who don’t give up. So it goes…
I thought Dutch elm disease had killed all the sychophantries in this country. Just shows how a mistaken a person can be, I guess.
Herve, I don’t want to get into some kind of tit for tat with you, but when I used the word ‘bitterness’ i was really referring to some of the posts which seem – to me at least – to involve railing against the fact that the finalists so far have already tasted some kind of success…if you measure success in terms of grants and prizes that is. it smelled a bit like jealousy, or bitterness, when I think gracious congratulations should be in order.
Ditto really the phrase ‘sense of entitlement’. There just seemed to be a string of posts from people who seem to feel that they deserve funding in some way. I guess all I was trying to say – maybe not very articulately – is that with the greatest respect to everyone here, nobody should feel that this is their entitlement or automatic right.
These things are very few in number and there is a huge amount of talent out there..i meean, 1200 entries?!…the odds are stacked against everyone, but it seems unreasonable to me that people are complaining that some of the chosen have won things before. That’s just life, innit
We obviously have different perspectives on this, and that’s cool. I wasn’t an entrant, so what do I know. But I’m not spoiling for a fight :o)
Saves us from using up our lifetime allotment of two big words.
———————————————-
I will use “ass-kissing” from now own. This one has no alloment limits, and is understood all around the world. :-)))
Ciara, not just you, what I would love for people here, is not to use words that they know will be vexing (sorry Jim, how many allotments for this one?) to the other side, as well as lending them intentions portraying them in a lesser light.
Actually, yes, stopping to see an other side needing redress or scolding.
I read Laura, Jim, Rafal, and I see nothing in their post pretending they are sitting on one side of a fence or the other, taking sides.
Wanted to pass on a link:
http://www.featureshoot.com/2009/05/davin-ellicson-bucharest/
DAH,
Thanks for the answer.
THODORIOS,
I had a look at your website and I really liked some of the images in “Nicosia in Dark and White”. Maybe I personally would edit it down a bit though. Hold your head high.
Herve what the heck are you going on about? you’re all over the road today in comparison to your usual swerving ;-)
Herve you weren’t wrong, sycophantry is just an older usage..it is considered obsolete but so are a lot of quality things :))
Well, obsolete usage costs $3!
I feel vindicated, Erica! ;-)
BTW, did you get to see that DVD “Eggleston in the Real World”? Did you like it (as I did, very much)? Jim, your take on this fellow texan of yours….
My dear friend Herve, seems to me you have a bit too much time on your hands today. And I’m not delighted with your characterizations of me, Lisa or Ciara. Geez, man, putting people down does not raise the level of the discussion here. Say your piece and let others say theirs. If you want to bitch about things, that’s your choice. But please stir clear of calling other people derogatory names. Thanking you in advance.
Patricia
Admin, DAH,
I recfieved a letter stating: “many of you are in the top 200 essays that I would love to publish on burn this year”.
Does this letter mean that I’m in the top 200 or not?
Thanks.
Probably time for another essay, huh?
OH Hell Jim…. get a book to read. (LAUGHING)
So write, and submit, one.
It is a community, after all
Well, Pete, you saw my post pretty quickly. Must have been checking for yourself. :)
Cathy,
i remember you mentioning India, but i didn’t know that you had a Chennai
connection… do you know Cholamandal artists village???
Sam,
I’ve heard of it but never been there. Is that where Tara is located?
Cathy,
no, Tara is in Adyar.
Cholamadal is on the outskirts going south (Injambakham) near the beach,
we lived there for several months and i have a few friends there…
Sam,
You lived there? Sounds great. What was that like?
ALL,
Going thru some old email I see that Michael Christopher Brown won a jurors choice award for the Review Santa Fe Project competition with his Sakhalin essay.
Herve you make me laugh.
Me an ‘arse licker’?
Don’t know much about me do you?
Sure I get the point that my comment might look synchphantic to you, but you know what, credit where credit is due. I certainly wouldn’t have the patience that David has exhibited to explain anything to people who just want to be curmudgeonly about the selection of the finalists because they didn’t get selected themselves, or just aren’t good enough. I am not into stroking ego’s unless there is a good reason. And it looks to me there are quite a lot of sour grapes on this forum at the moment.
In no other grant or competition or anything in life generally, do you get this kind of imput, as we have had with the EPF. Its a real chance to learn and grow, re-examine what it is you are doing, reaffirm that what you are doing is the right thing for you. To see what other people believe to be fine work and ask the questions, why do you think it is fine work?- from someone who is articulate and knowledgable and instead of spending all this time doing their own thing they are spending time setting things up for a future generation.
I think that is pretty cool and I am disgusted by much of what has been written here about the validity of the choices because the selected finalists have had some small sucess previously.
Whether I or anyone else personally agree with the inclusion of certain finalists is completely irrelevant. The fact is this is an opportunity to either lift your game and push yourself even harder or wither and die. Survival of the fittest right? I am sure there are at least a half a dozen handy idioms I could use to express this but the fact remains that David has gone to a huge effort to organize this whole thing for no real discernible reason I can fathom and should therefore be supported. (shit they didn’t make any dollars out of this and I mean what kudos is involved in running a grant ‘eh?)
So call me anything you like Herve I know what I believe is the fair thing to do.
DAVIN
Just saw your work on Feature Shoot
http://www.featureshoot.com/
It looks great and I really like the story, its an important documentary of a way of life that is passing with the globalization of smaller communities. A very long term exploration I think and probably a very important documentary book at the end of it as well I would imagine.
Also for anyone that might be interested Walter Astrada, who has received this years Alexia Foundation Grant applied four times previously before he succeeded in winning.
Jim its just like sport…
But it’s not a game.
Lisa;
You an “Arse licker”? I think not. A straight shooter and more importantly a working photographer. One who puts her heart and soul into producing real work, one who doesn’t just sit at a computer talking about it. You’re right, David has way more patience than I would ever have!!
As a working photographer you know how tough it is to get your work across an editor’s desk, let alone bother to get upset if your work is or is not selected for a competition or grant. You either toughen up or don’t bother submitting anything. It’s certainly no place for a shrinking violet!
Anyway is their such a thing as an Aussie lass who isn’t a straight shooter??? :-))
Kiwi cuz Ross
I am disgusted by much of what has been written here about the validity of the choices
—————————————–
Why, Lisa? Even if being wrong and misguided, the reactions to finalists being already well ear-marked for success in the profession should not disgust you. There was cause for wondering, since we had little notions of how David proceeded.
IMO, if the EPF becomes or is in its second year already, a highly visible grant in the profession, there will definitely need a refining of communication and disclosure as to what and who can. Just as it needed to be couched on paper in terms of accounting and lawyering.
Lisa;
You an “Arse licker”? I think not. A straight shooter and more importantly a working photographer. One who puts her heart and soul into producing real work, one who doesn’t just sit at a computer talking about it. You’re right, David has way more patience than I would ever have!!
As a working photographer you know how tough it is to get your work across an editor’s desk, let alone bother to get upset if your work is or is not selected for a competition or grant. You either toughen up or don’t bother submitting anything. It’s certainly no place for a shrinking violet!
Anyway is their such a thing as an Aussie lass who isn’t a straight shooter??? :-))
Kiwi cuz Ross
“…and I understand your POV is that in regards to this, we should just constantly celebrate, sing hymns of praises, and never complain about anything, or never voice our perplexity or disagreeing (not bitterness, Ciara) about some of his M.O. or choices.”
Herve, you’ve really gotten my goat today. If that’s what you really think of what I post here on Burn, you and I are farther apart than the 3000 miles that separates us geographically. Just because I don’t bitch about how things are done here does not mean I’m some little miss goody two shoes. And I always say it like I see it. As for what you call a** kissing, my mother called it being considerate to others. Sorry if that offends you.
Patricia
Maybe just add a line to the “emerging photographer” thing. “You will be competing against working professional photographers and award winning photographers.”
That will make clear David’s meaning of “emerging.”
Oi cuz, reckon the rest ‘arr beached is ‘ay’
How’s the kids? Alright?
Hehehehehe…Hope you are still working on it, I reckon it will yield some great results eventually.
Herve, I was expecting a far more knowledgable reaction. Perhaps someone who picked up a camera last year was deluded enough to think that they would get given $10,000.00 to pursue their fantasy assignment with out having anything but a years experience but I find that unlikely that anyone would be that naieve. So therefore the conversation about who is ’emerging’ is just silly and sounds like sour grapes.
Basically I am not going to enter into these circular arguments with you or anyone else, I was simply defending someone who seems to have copped a lot of flack for trying to do something to take the profession forward and has chosen what he sees to have been the best contenders to best illustrate that.
I would suggest that everyone get over the ‘Emerging’ bit and just get on with it.
No more comments, shop shut, I am out of here.
lisa..
you go girl…
yes,
yes….
xox
**
Reminder: the ass-licking word was used ONLY joking back to Jim.
IMO: I find the recurring praises to David obsequious, wether the writer is obsequious or not in real life is another story. And gratuitous, when repeated over time. Just drop him a call, or leave him a message… It becomes a deed, not just words.
Talking about considerate, if I have a friend and i find (s)he said something of concerns to our relation, I will call or e-mail them, I don’t address them on a public website. Seems the thing to do, can’t recall if I got it from Mom or not, though…. ;-)
who is ‘emerging’ is just silly and sounds like sour grapes
————————————-
I would have had to submit an essay for that, which I did not. Maybe you meant Rafal, I am not sure.
Lisa, you may think that only a photographer with multiple awards and a going career has superb talent. I also find what you say (fantasy assignment) a bit insulting to people who submitted without much of a professional pedigree or a CV that stands scrutiny. Many here, lacking such resumes, still have more than one year of photographic passion.
Besides, now, David has told us that of course, he knew some EPF Ps, but has not looked at the resumes, award lists or CVs, and if he did, would not judge by them. So?
You keep bringing the argument in the present tense, when i obviously made the point that such thought came initially, at least for me. Maybe you meant Jim, I don’t know…. ;-)
Sorry this bit wasn’t included in my penultimate comment.
Perhaps Herve, Jim you would prefer a defnition of ‘Emerging Photographer’ as someone that left art-school or full time study within five years ago, was under 25 or 30 or had produced one published reportage to be eligible for this grant?
They are the normal definitions of ‘Emerging’ if you look around the grants that are available.
I would like to think that David has kept this as wide open as possible so that everyone would have a chance regardless of their experience. If we applied the mentioned criteria to the EPF as it stands I would imagine that only about 200 entries would have been made.
With the ‘Emerging Film-makers Fund’ (NSW FTO) for which I was a finalist earlier this year the criteria was that only one of the creative team would be professional out of the two principal creatives. So that was one professional and one newbie. So you still need to prove that there is a responsible professional on board before anyone will give you money ($30,000.00 in the case of the EFF) I received feedback into why I did not receive the funding and the criticism was very easy to understand, I put in a crap budget. Fair enough I don’t expect anyone to give me $30K unless it was a pretty perfect application, ‘Emerging’ or not.
No more I have stuff to do
Cheers
Goodmorning from beautiful Greece !!!!
I am so happy today ! I can hear the birds early in the morning and I wish I can write
so You can feel what I felt …Katie, Bobb,Akaky, MyGracie, Joe,Davidb…
anyways…it goes like this
The Beatles-All You Need Is Love
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzJ2NKp23WU
BURNIANS you are the BEST …ALL of you …
THANK YOU
Good, measured and informative last post, Lisa. Thanks.
hi kathie and civi,
im not sure if
i should laugh
say grrrr
or yawn.
zzz
Well, friends, the fact that I let my chain be pulled here on Burn after swearing to myself I would never get into this kind of stuff just says it’s time for me to tune out for awhile. I’ll continue to look at and maybe even leave my one comment on the essays, but not here on Dialogue. Got to heal a bit before I dare ride this pony again.
Go well.
Patricia
TO OUR PAT,
YOU ARE A TRUE BURNIAN …I LOVE YOU
and we all here because WE LOVE BURN and we LOVE MR.HARVEY.
VIVA PHOTOGRAFIA !
Pete Seeger, Doc Watson, Clint Howard, & Fred Price – Careless Love
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFirHRdfSCE&feature=related
THANK YOU
P.S PAT you rock , maybe you need some ice-cream from myGracie…(kiss our Ethan)
Katie(Juliette) …we love you sooooo
Over the last few weeks I have been wondering where you fit into all of this Jim. I have watched the progress of the EPF finalists over the last weeks and watched your growth here coincide with the announcements. It has to be said that now I do find it all very entertaining.
For instance, your curious ‘acts’ of perturbation which follow the semantic discussion of words, such as ’emerging’ or more notably the use of words in artist statements; closely followed by practical proposals, like for instance, the one comment rule, which was later implemented. This is the paradox of Jim that I am trying to understand. See I was wondering why someone who didn’t enter the competition would be so up in arms about the use of the EPF finalists for promotion or the use of the word ’emerging’. Was it to generate dissent or was it serious intent from a photographer who cares? Personally I think the slow release of the finalists is a good idea, as it attracts interest and in a way it is a form of free advertising. Just another device to remain competitive. But, I’m curious to see into the heart of the real Jim. What drove this impatience to see the next finalist?
Anyway, my guess is that you will become famous for the ‘one comment rule’ Jim, and I say good on you, as success should be found somewhere even if it is on a website away from the battleground of newspapers. I could make head nor tails of your behavior on this site, until I picked up one of my favorite books and everything was suddenly crystal clear. Because you see in a way, you remind me of that character in Dostoyevsky’s masterpiece, ‘The Brothers Karmazov’, Fyodor Pavlovich, the father who plays the offended buffon so well, that he actually starts to believe that the bufoon character he plays is the real him. The two merge into one. “The one who lies to himself and believes his own lies comes to a point where he can distinguish no truth either within himself or around him” (Dostoyevsky).
But having drawn that analogy, I would go on and say that NOW I couldn’t imagine Burn without your presence, as you have proven to be an integral part of the dialogue. Your character is a special thing. At first I was annoyed with your presence and your snide one liners, charging around upsetting the order like a bull in a china shop. But now I realise that you are here to stay and ‘part of the pixels’ if I may be so bold. I for one keep coming back to this website not only for the photographs, but I need my ‘daily dose of Jim’. You amuse me. You complete me. I wake up wondering what the next complaint will be. It just wouldn’t be the same here without you.
“So that buffoonery of the kind now displayed by Fyodor Pavlovich, one lacking in veneration towards the place in which he found himself, produced in at least some of the witnesses a sense of bewilderment and surprise” (Dostoyevsky)
And following your suggestion of the one comment per author idea to DAH, I thought that this gem would be applicable – “Great Elder, impart your pronouncement: do I offend you with my sprightliness or do I not?” Fyodor Pavlovich suddenly exclaimed. (Dostoyevsky)
So Jim, I realise that you are now part of my genetic makeup, your my dose of amusement that I couldn’t live without. In a way we are both permanent pixels on Burn, so let us walk together towards the final 10 as spectators, down that long path toward the cool palm oasis.
In adoration,
Johan
Johan,
I am in awe !!!
Johan, there is no mistaking your message.
Gracie
re: your post..
answer: all of the above.
Civilian
i am checking in just to say hello to you and Gracie..how you sustain yourself these days i really have no idea. Pickins´ are slim, as they say, and getting slimmer. I miss you all the time, your all embracing good will, your humor, wondering what you´re drinking tonight :)
kisses to you both..take care of your little chicos, Gracie, they´re the future. Civilian, keep spreading the good around..there can never be enough of that stuff.
Patricia:
:))) my best to you too…i know what you mean..
kat-
Hey Kat…
Just checking in..:)
Lots of CRAZY STUFF happened today..
Can’t say more.. Possible new project…:)
panos dearest brother,
i see now the layers, shapes and diagrams
davidb has spoken to me about in your pictures.
i watch your posted links most intently.
the girls: frieda and your little niece are beautiful.
the student now becomes teacher … isnt the world just a circle?
and let me take a precious night duty minute to say
that even though bobb owes BURN an odd number of $$
for non indentation of intended paragraphs…
bob i do patiently read what you write and somehow find
your words twirling nicely in my head and your sense of family, inspiring
(yes, what sense is there in going out and meeting the world
when there is no one waiting at home with whom to share the exciting news)
JOHAN
I am impressed! Nice work brother!
THE BURN IS ON FIRE
Panos and Katie and Ian and My Gracie and Jim and Lisa and Herve and Johan and Rossy and Wendy and PAT and ALL of You
SILENT SHOOTERS I see you smiling …all of YOU :)
Life is beautiful ! New beginnings ,crazy stuff !!! THE JOURNEY …don’t forget
It’s all about the JOURNEY
and WE are drinking
CHERRY JUICE…hmmmmm…?
civi, Where’s the ouzo?
I am out of ouzo!
you Irish, or no?
You bring whiskey !
BUT EVERYTHING IN MODERATION !!!
except sex and love :)
VIVA ! WHISKEY on IAN !!!!
Gracie…:)
DavidB is a master of his own..
He knows…:)
Civi…
How the f**k u thinking of whisky
at 9:30am euro time???
:)
The truth is I have to cut on my expenses.
THE DONATION button is UP there on the upper right corner as my boy Anton forgot to highlight
and MR.DAH has his birthday , Anton’s is coming, Panos and Bob finished and keep going and going…
SAVE THE KIBBUTZ
Where is James Chance, Audrey , Mike (irish), Sidney, Katharina, Lassal with my blood,Annie,
KerryP, Jan, Marcin, Asher, DavidMcg,Preston, Charlie, TomY, MikeB, AndrewB,DavidB, Abele,Reimar
SPACECOWBOY
I am going to throw the trash …I will be BACK
Panos ,
9:35 A.M Greek time
You half Greek what’s wrong …you forgot …WE NEVER SLEEP here :))
LOVE YOU ALLLL
P.S Only a master can recognize a master But I am the “monster”…
TRASH time
Lisa, wow, I am amazed by people like you. You claim reverence for David yet you are one of the first to start throwing the crap at people. If you felt such admiration for David you would know that when you chuck crap at others here, you will inevitably get some on the walls and carpet. And this is the home David built. I wonder how many people who applied for the EPF you just insulted.
for the civilian only………………………. http://etrouko.com.au/art/civilian.jpg
IMANTS,
You will receive your key only if you promise me something
**The key for Your Greek House…
come on …will you promise?
will you promise?
That when I see you …you will give me your Book
“no me saques sin razon” signed
THANK YOU
my etrouko
out for the trash again.
P.S Imants, you ain’t a wedding photographer, nope.
……. I knew you would get past my goons that’s why she is my minder now.
I am a smoker
i am a joker
I am a midnight walker
i am a minder
I am a keeper
how did you figure out
that I am an old and farting beggar…
p.S don’t listen to them…they are all SYCOPHANTS
Johan, you are a clever boy. But you’ve got it completely wrong. I’m not a Vaudeville act. :) What you see is what you get. Online or in the 3D world. Photography is the world I live in, and have lived in, forever. And it really bothers me that young, talented photographers have so few outlets for their work. But they don’t have a chance, really.
Even at my small newspaper, I have young photographers with college degrees and great portfolios show up all the time looking for work. Photographers whose talent and desire would be wasted at a small newspaper, but I have nothing to offer, not even good advice, on how to make it anymore. The fact is that the competition is too great and the opportunities too limited to financially support the work of 90 percent of the folks who want to make a living at photography today. Even the very best photographers, the DAH’s of the world, feel the financial pain. I could hire 100 photographers, good young photographers, for minimum wage, today, it’s that bad.
I’d just like these new photographers to have a chance at some funding. If the same people are getting multiple pieces of the ever-shrinking pie, then things are only going to get worse. And it’s hard to imagine what worse than now will look like.
All, with reference to the EPF: this is what DAH said some time ago. ““The purpose of BURN, which has been stated so many times, is simply to provide a venue/forum for emerging photographers at a time when the nature of photographic communication is in a clear state of revolution and discovery…”.
David considers Nat Geo photographer Medford Taylor an emerging photographer so obviously he is not discounting anyone from his remit. He speaks of a time of revolution and discovery so I think that he is looking for work that pushes the envelope of whatever genre it sits in or perhaps creates another genre!
I don’t think he’s trying to fill posts in newspapers or magazines. We all know that traditional outlets are fast-disappearing. This is a new way to show new work. It will be interesting to see how published photographers fare. No boundaries.
Mike.
Mike, the EPF aside, in the case of Burn, no boundaries still means no income. Venues abound. But there is no damn money out there. That NatGeo photographers are out begging for peanuts bodes VERY badly for the future of photography.
It’s not so much that we need another genre, it’s that photographers need to be able to feed themselves and their families.
MIKE R…
whoaa…i do NOT consider Medford Taylor an emerging photographer!! where oh where did you come up with that???? i have published on Burn several established photographers including Martin Parr, Bruce Gilden, James Nachtwey, Steve McCurry, etc etc…..BURN is FOR emerging photographers, but not everyone published here is emerging….i plan to publish more icons in the future….
The point is that everyone is struggling. Pulitzer prize winners are struggling. What photographers need are more paying jobs, not more free venues. I don’t know. Very frustrating. But a smaller and smaller group of photographers is sharing smaller and smaller bits of the pie.
There are a lot of good photographers featured on Burn. But who is going to buy this stuff? For real money. Sorry, my blue collar photography background grounds me in trying to figure out who is going to pay the bills.
Jim,
sometimes you are so palatable, like your post above [way above!], that it makes me forget for a second how harmful you are, but I suppose that’s the genius of your agenda, even the post above with seemingly good intentions is really only there to insinuate that David’s misdirecting funds and thus discounting the Burn mission.
If you really understood what you said Jim, you would understand exactly what you say ‘actually means’. Yes, the world of photography is changing and many people that produce here can’t make a career out of it, but the ones that can make a career out of it should be fully backed by all investors.
Jim, it would be a long lesson in economics for me to help you understand the flaws in your thinking, but spreading the funding to more ‘bets’ reduces the chance of any one of those bets from coming in. By your own admission, the difficulty in getting anyone across the finish line to full-time pro is almost impossible, so we shouldn’t squander resources, we should always back the best horse fully.
But discovering this flaw in your reasoning doesn’t matter to you Jim, Your point was to passive-aggressively insinuate David is misdirecting funds, which is why I gave up long ago correcting your flawed logic and you gave up long ago fixing it.
Johan,
Your approach to Jim Powers makes sense, just like an oyster, if some gritty, nasty piece of dirt gets inescapable lodged in your mouth, you might as well coat it with spit until it becomes something interesting. There are of course ‘other’ ways to look at Jim’s behaviour to ‘come to grips with it’
Pity is the logical conclusion.
Jim’s juvenile acting-out is a natural response from a failed, once-upon-a-time dreamer. There’s loads of evidence in Jim’s past posts that he did at one time care and he did actually give up, all by his own admission. Some give up gracefully, some not so: Jim not so.
It’s disappointing that Jim says now that he never had any photojournalistic aspirations. Since past posts state he did wish to use his photography for something more meaningful, but ‘gave up’, we now have to add ‘lying’ to Jim’s character flaws.
Jim can console himself with his ranch and his camera-bag living: by flying these flags he shows more and more that his failed desire to accomplish something personally important to him still gnaws at him today… We all know what happened to the boy that never got the little red bike they wanted when they were little..
So what’s the text-book symptom of failed dreamers? Well you’ll often find them hanging out in placed that match their failed competency, better yet, places filled with upstart dreamers with budding aspirations.
Being in these inspirational places reminds them of the things that made them feel alive and empowered, it takes them back to when they thought anything was possible, but that feeling is a double-edged sword as it reminds them they failed as well, this bitter reminder makes these losers bitter towards the people that are trying to succeed and this bitterness manifests itself into picking holes in the aspirations of those that are trying and the worst losers of all even go so far as running a disruption-campaign on places that might help those aspirations take root, some places actually have to invent rules to safeguard against this degree of loser behaviour.
That being said, it’s not a new dilemma and every competency has losers, you can find losers in software engineering, you can find losers in investment management, and you can even find losers in something as friendly as mountain-biking, so again, it’s easy to just pity the person: they were not born with the stamina to achieve what they truly wished for and they weren’t born with the maturity to deal with that failure gracefully.
I’ll leave you with this gift: let’s call it Jim’s Song. It’s the song that enters my head as soon as I see a Jim Power’s post come up and brings a sad-smile to my face every time, ironically its by a band called ‘Moving Pictures’
Jim’s Song
Mis-Posted on old thread while ‘wandering’ Please disregard ealier ‘same’ post.
Instead of Friday’s Wandering, Here’s Friday’s ‘Wondering’. It did take me a bit of wandering to assemble these three links.
i think Simon Norfolk’s
Advice Here
and the response to that advice over here is a worth-while read.
Is Simon a false prophet? or Darwin’s messenger?
personally, I think a little bit of both. I think the photography business is spending too much time focusing on the supply side of the supply/demand curve and not first exploring demand, but what does everyone else think?
Also, are we going to lose our pedigree PJ’s to Citizen PJ’s in the future and what consequences could that bring?
no no no …this version for you Joe http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmrVpAx9PWQ
Joe, psychoanalyzing posters in forums is a fools game. I’m doing exactly what I wanted to do from the time I was 10 years old. Working for a newspaper. Sadly, the opportunity for other photographers to do the same isn’t really there anymore. And every single day it’s getting more unlikely. That’s what makes me sad.
As for my time here, I’d rather talk about the photos and the business, and the ethics of photography than spend my time psychoanalyzing pixels.
Actually, Joe, Norfolk is right on. But he’s an optimist.
JIM…
i am trying to find folks to “pay for this stuff”….two have already be paid…ask Sean Gallagher what he thinks…..i think i have lined up three or four assignments for others…photographers who have been published all tell me something good has happened after..i.e. assignment, print sales etc…maybe we can sell some more prints….
i share your frustration, but analyzing something is one thing, trying to do something about it is another…please try to put your energy into coming up with solutions…
we all know the problem…
OR, just wait a few weeks when our plans here are either realized or crash and BURN…..calling the game over before it even begins is getting to be a tedious and unproductive discussion…….thanks…
cheers, david
So how about another finalist?
By the way, Joe. I normally don’t like street photography. But your stuff is really good.
JOE…JIM
there could be a lot of truth to what Simon says….commissions as we all knew it are over…..i mean just in the last few months, our business has changed more than in the previous 45 years…..in real ways involving product and trade….
ironically, i always used to tell my friends that i would do whatever it takes to do my work…and i always meant it…i still do mean it….in my head from the very beginning was always the worst case scenario of bagging groceries for a living and shooting what i wanted on the side…
even back in the “fat days” i always felt that being a professional photographer was most likely a hindrance to produce really important work..few professionals are really great photographers…commerce and art rarely go hand in hand in the world of photography…
the very best photographers ALWAYS WERE/ARE the very poorest photographers, with the exception of the born wealthy which includes some of the most well known legends out there…
to earn one’s living as a professional photographer has NOTHING to do with the work…the work is the work is the work no matter how you get it….
professional photographers are going to be reduced drastically in numbers….this is no reason to think that great photography will die…i think quite the contrary…..
since when does the world owe anyone anything??? the photographers who have something to say will say it….it has always been thus…
JIM…
another finalist?? ok, but let’s play a little game…you write your review FIRST ..we all know what you will say…THEN, i will publish….cool??
all essays have been up for approximately the same amount of time…hey dude, we really got you hooked on this…right???
cheers, david
Laughing Out Loud!
Jim that was a long time coming! Now go get some better toys Jim and then come back to the playground; this ‘teasing the team’ without anything good to share is like being a rubbish baseball player, then deamanding to be on the team, and not even having a catcher’s mitt to leverage with.
jeez.
IMANT, sent you a message via your website.
So, Joe, what’s the criteria for posting opinions here? Gotta have bonifides as a famous photographer?
JIM…
you have NEVER heard me use the term “famous photographer”…that is YOUR hangup….
go back and read my post on Road Trips about how “fame” is a slippery slope…should be avoided at all costs..
dear Mr.Jim…What is the quality of your intent?
“Certain people have a way of saying things that shake us at the core. Even when the words do not seem harsh or offensive, the impact is shattering. What we could be experiencing is the intent behind the words. When we intend to do good, we do. When we intend to do harm, it happens. What each of us must come to realize is that our intent always comes through. We cannot sugarcoat the feelings in our heart of hearts. The emotion is the energy that motivates. We cannot ignore what we really want to create. We should be honest and do it the way we feel it. What we owe to ourselves and everyone around is to examine the reasons of our true intent.
My intent will be evident in the results.”
Thurgood Marshall (American Jurist and Lawyer. 1908-1993)
Absolutely, David. I see no evidence you have a pretentious bone in your body. You are the real deal. And the photographer I want to be when I grow up. Seriously. Always been my favorite photographer (at the risk of being called a sycophant, but it’s true. :)
I was responding to Joe.
David (ah), Jim, Joe, Herve, Sister-Lis, Pat, all:
i think i have a solution (or one part) to at least righting this bronco that seems to have disseminated so much confusion, frustration, anger, criticism, attacks, etc….i will try to write a comment tonight (and yes, for my friends Pete and Civilian, i’ll try to adhere to Strunk’s recommendation for paragraphing thoughts/themes ;))) ) once i get home…i’ve got a shoot to do, so it will most likely be very late at night, but i think, i hope, i can bring some focus, as a photographer whose been on this journey from the beginning (as a finalist last year whose work david showed at Look3, but also as someone who knows david personally) to some of the issues, concerns, frustrations that everyone seems to have choked on…but, i dont have time now….
i will say this, about the issue of money.
One thing I can tell you is that David is drop dead poor and he’s a Magnum dude. David is struggling finanacially as much as each of us. I am not a synchophant (i LOVE this word too Herve, both the older version and the contemporized version) and I too was once called a syncophant at Magnum blog by a person who at the time did not know me personally nor my friendship with the person whose work i was writing, but I respect and like a lot that person alot, actually spent some time with him in NY, a person who actually has one of the keenest minds and understanding of photography around and actually is/will help Burn and I still like that guy a lot, so names dont really mean that much, but I can give insight to some here about David and his motives for the EPF.
David began this endeavor 2 years ago with the aspiration to help photographers, unknown photographers, young photographers, emerging/aspiring/submerging/pros/ams etc. The idea came from a very small idea at Road Trips: to do a sort of Ringu (japanese art form by which one photographer creates a photograph or series based on another’s). When David originally shopped around the idea, many of us decided: let’s do a group assignment. I suggested to him and Road Trips that the idea of a Ringu would be cool. this morphed into his ‘Road Trips Assignment.” Later, this morphed into his decision to give one photographer $1,000. I, as others, did assignments. I did the assignment BEFORE David so graciously offered the money (harvey, dont you wish you had that $1,000 ;)))) ). It was a great, communal and inspired act of foresight. This then, through donation, morphed into the Emerging Photographers fund and was upped to $5,000, which created a deludge of entrants. The Fund and the work was a wild success. So what happened, it went to the next level: it became the Magnum Education Emerging Grant, and with addition generosity went to $10,000 and of course, the damn gates opened up. Later, tonight, I’ll write more, but it is probably that disconnect between the original idea and its current manifestation that has caused the confusion. (more about this tonight).
However, let me tell you this: David has been tirelessly working to get funding. For what? Himself?…no. Without giving away secrets, i can tell you that all the work that he has done is to raise awareness, raise funding for both Burn, the photograhers who publish, read, comment, work here, as well as to raise funding for the winners and the participants. Not one bit of this has gone to himself or his own projects. Fuck, the boy couldnt even buy a damn beer ;)). David has been tireless in these efforts and the truth is that, the funding will NOT dry up. That at some point, there will be residule work, residule funding for more photographers, more people whose work, whose work habits, warrants that. I do not agree or like everything that has been done with this EPF (i’m on the record here and with david in private at being disappointed by the fact that we didnt know all the finalists upfront), but I can tell you personally that whatever mistakes or errors of judgment that have happened, or not, the goal has been a simple one:
to fund work for as many as possible.
David talked about this tirelessly with me when he was here, almost to the point where i wanted to say “david, enough about Burn, cant we just talk about life!” ;))))…but he is doing this solo, essentially. Maybe next year, or the year after, there will be a grant for 2 emerging photographers and 2 ‘unknown’ photographers, who knows. Maybe the the choice should have been $5,000 to an emerging photographer who is established and $5,000 to an emerging photographer who is not established, who knows. This is all hindsight and like EVERYTHING that david does it’s playing it loose and in the moment. maybe the shock came because last years finalists and winner were basically unknown photographers and this years crop so far are, for the most part, working/established photographers. That where the disconnect, i believe, came in. Is this a fault of the system? I dont know, what can one do when money comes in front of people, when the success of Road Trips becomes Burn and the success of Burn becomes a swarm.
David and I spoke at length about this concept: when it doesnt become fun. It hasn’t become fun for me anymore, for sure. That is not about Burn or David. It’s what happens when things go crazy, go awry. But i can tell you this: for all David’s failings (and yes, he has them, and actually, he and i are very similiar, cause we actually have the same failings ;))) ), he has put his name, reputation, energy and credibility on the line: for photographers, period.
I have more to say on all this, but please let me assure everyone that one thing is true: in whatever version this award now manifests itself, the heart of it was to establish a vehicle to help as many photographers as possible, not just the 30under30 or the WPP masterclass finalists. The truth is that his hope was that if the award garnered applications of solid, powerful work, people would see that this outfit is not a community of wannabes, but a community of passionate, hardworking, inspired photographers, whoever they are…
Most importly, i hope that the actually work does not get lost in all the drama. The 4 finalists so far have created beautiful bodies of work. many many many of the people who were not chosen have also created extraordinary bodies of work and that must be the inspiration.
I can assure you that david is doing everything he can to make Burn and by extension the grant (and all future incarnations of the grant) as wide, as accessible and as beneficial to as many photographers as possible. He’s doing this to such a degree that he couldnt even come over to our place for dinner ;))) and that’s a fucking busy hound….
let me assure everyone that, if there is one good thing about all this discussion, is that David is taking it seriously and has not wavered in his commitment to get people’s work shown and to provide as many outlets as possible for people to do the work. But above all, we must do the work first…
ok, more later
running
bob
Civilian, shall we judge each other by our posts on this forum? I assume your normal communication is not like the stuff you regularly post here, although it is entertaining. And why are we even discussing personalities? Psychoanalyzing my posts seems to have nothing to do with photography, the business of photography or the ethics of photography.
I find it odd there is so much interest in my psychological motivations.
BOBB ,
I am in tears !!!
I will read your post later but I can feel the energy !!!!!!!!!
I give you LOVE and my 37 euros …my paycheck is coming though !
VIVA from my CIVILIAN heart
P.S BOBB…good that you don’t have much time to write more :)
Civi :)))
i could use that 37 euros, believe me :)))))))
hugs
bob
gmornin all
hi jim,
i wont attempt to psychoanalyze you. but cant you see?
it is like….
me – blondie curls bobbing, skipping happily, minding me own business
and
you – sticking your leg out there to trip me
and then
FACE PLANT!!!
pick it up a little bit. EVERYBODY knows it is hard out there for photographers.
i can even see that and i am NON photographer.
it is even hard for me as a NONphotographer that is why i photograph to be sane.
my outlet…
pick it up a little bit. and put some positives into your posts
like that time you talked about DAH’s magic in cuba. that was neat!
DAH “whoaa…i do NOT consider Medford Taylor an emerging photographer!! where oh where did you come up with that????” – from you, you said it, I’ll try and find the post. Obviously you didn’t mean that he was emerging as in beginning. I took it to mean that he was still open and experimenting.
Mike.
TO ALL,
and especially for you MR.JIM,
FOCUS, FOCUS …my dear…I WROTE before that I respect Your postings, I like your work…I even said that you are my bro…
BUT it seems that you are a NEW soul in the UNIVERSE…
I “Cut and Paste” and I never, ever JUDGE …
FOCUS,my love Focus…
BUT,
I ask for Respect because
WHAT GOES AROUND ,COMES AROUND !!!
P.S Since you don’t want the key of your Greek House, can we all come to yours for a beer…or red wine?
This is the situation now. Its all changed. A friend i bumped into the other day shoots for VII and he is struggling to pay the bills like everyone else. BUT.. he is still doing ‘THE WORK’. that is, his own personal projects, making that next book. Isnt that the point/ You adapt, you somehow pay the bills, you manage and you find a way to keep doing the thing that its all about which is your own work.
Current situation for me: The advertising teat has dried up of late, done a couple of album covers, some publicity shots for a couple of bands, a bit of editing of showreels, corporate shorts, some cheesy vox pops on a crappy camera…and after bills are paid all of that thats left goes into making pictures I want. I travel up to stoke for a gig saturday with a bone fide rock legend, on the tour bus, vip pass to the gig, shoot what the hell i want, but all the lab costs come out of my pocket(even though i was invited on the tour). I may get a frame or two i like, i may not, but its what i love doing. Backstage roaming, whats not to love. Been invited to cover a jazz festival in montpelier in july. Two weeks, all the access i want to anyone/anywhere, it costs me a couple of prints for the festival, train fares, food, etc etc…..but damm it could be fun and if that means i have to do WHATEVER kind of work to get there then i will. We can all lament that things are FUBAR now, but like david said, if it takes stacking shelves to be able to carry on, then stack shelves.
PEACE
JOHN
The idea that a award taking up a life of its own is appealing ……… one could enter something from left field and in the end due to the nature of work submitted his/her work suddenly fits the criteria…………. a feeling of elation……… the next day the work gets buried……………….and
BOB BLACK…
“i dont have time now…” followed by 11 paragraphs (thank you bob) and 1,114 words…
HA – Can’t wait to see what you write when you “Have time!” (laughing)
BOB…ALL
i still owe you 40 Canadian dollars..i have not forgotten….those Toronto ATM machines just did not work with my U.S. card..again, so sorry about that because i know you did not really have that to give…can i wire this into your account or something??? or, is anyone coming to Look3 that you will see soonest???
actually Bob, i am having a great time…yup fun….i am now working on the Look3 show with Anton and with Mike …a combo of a fast paced “commercial” as an opener and a slower respectful show of the finalists….man, both look very very cool…when you see it all together it is just really impressive…
i knew from the “get go” that i would catch a lot of flak…just goes with the territory….MOST of the mail i receive (95%) is so overwhelmingly positive, that it drowns out the 5% negative…i keep trying to tell the “negative” personalities is that their attitude alone is just going to kill THEM , not me….i have met my whole life the “dark” personalities…the ones who see the glass half empty…this is nothing new….and from teenage years to now, i have watched those people just fade away…because whatever they are now with this EPF bit, is what they will always be….but again, MOST have written me really wonderful letters….MOST do not see their not being a finalist as a negative, but as a chance to grow…
Alex Webb told me the other day that he tried for a Guggenheim 8 times before finally getting it…that means the boy read 8 rejection letters over an 8 year period …what did he do?? he produced three more books, that is what he did…i cannot even recall all of the rejection letters i have received…Larry Towell, Alex W., Trent Parke, and yours truly along with many others all received rejection letters from NG re: the 50k grant….Alessandra Sanguinetti got it…i could have used the 50k for my family project..but Alessandra deserved it..we probably all deserved it….but, do you think that for one second receiving a rejection letter kept me from moving forward???
i keep reminding young photographers that nobody has failed failed and failed more than dah…..i might even be failing with BURN, but it does not cross my mind….all i can feel is my vision for something unique and special in our world of photography..and for heaven’s sake Bob…IT IS HAPPENING right now
the minute anyone jumps into the unknown there is a good chance of failure…and anyone afraid to “fail” will never never succeed…
you can only get to “rarefied air” by leaping headfirst into the void….
i have a slight limp from a skydiving accident in college….i overcame all my fears and jumped out of the plane…i landed wrong….on crutches for 6 months….but all i can remember is the incredible rush of the fall, the noise of the air rushing through my crash helmet ..the world spinning around below me….and when i opened my chute , all was quiet…i remember hearing children laughing in a field a couple of thousand feet below…a dog barked..the light was warm and more beautiful than any light i have seen before or since…..i would not trade that moment for anything…
cheers, david
“Cyclone strands millions in India and Bangladesh”
BODO and other BURNIANS in the area… we wish you the best!!!
BE strong …red cross is coming !!!
Focus let’s send them Good Energy !!!
DAH:
Your patience is obviously unlimited. I would probably have thrown up my hands long ago.
BTW – I got a bit behind on my “project” so I am not sending it until Saturday. So if you are bogged down, I still have a bit more time. Thanks
NOW we ALL know,
WHY You the Legend Mr.Harvey cann’t dance
Let’s blame the skydiving accident back in college…hm…
DAH
Your last post is very well put… NEVER NEVER GIVE UP. If you do, well then it just didn’t mean that much to you….
Hey I have seen some video of Harvey dancing… he has some moves… not as good as mine of course… HA
Leap and the net will appear.
Always does for the passionate folk.
hello ms kerry,
i would like to thank you personally for your efforts
and celebrate with you on the success of the donation button…
(darn these men, cant they just pretend to listen..sometimes??? hmm :))
Mrs.Kerry P,
I will take whatever MyGracie wrote…
And From ALL the BURN girls …KATIE, PATRICIA,LAURA, LORI, ANNIE, LISA, LEE, KATHARINA,SOFIA,
AUDREY,PATSY,MARINA,CATHY,BEATE,HILLARY …OIME…OIME…YOU are so MANY !!!
THANK YOU!!
MY GRACIE you rock
KATIE I wish you were here too
BOB…
i just re-read your letter again…you write long stuff amigo, and sometimes i miss something…
i just want to point out that my cash flow situation has never really been so great, but i have never been impoverished either…i have no debts (except the $40. i owe you)..i did put both of my sons through university, took them all over the world on assignment, provided a good living for my family overall…i have always had more than my share of commissions and assignments…the cash flow situation right now is tight because of my investment in BURN…hanging on to the New York space would be crazy by anyone’s reckoning since it gives me two living space payments…so, i am gambling the gallery will at least pay for itself…if the NY space were off my back, i would have no problems and the contributions from readers here has saved it for another month…..i thank everyone……
i should also point out emphatically that whatever my bank account might reflect, it has never never kept me from producing…..my books, exhibitions, workshops, assignments, go on no matter what….as a matter of fact, even in these tough economic times for almost all of us, i have never felt better…i mean like i am truly jazzed…..
when times are tough i think we all become more “aware”…like a wild animal in the jungle…our senses are sharper…we see better, we hear better, we smell better…all survival instincts on full alert…THE time for invention……THIS is THE TIME…..
stay tuned…
cheers,david
david:
that’s it, for sure….we gotta keep on truckin’……my hope is that, what i write tonight, will better make folks move past all the bickering…and just see this year as different from last year only in the sense that things evolve, but the essence IS STILL THE SAME…and yea, look at me and marina: 6 grant applications this year alone between the two of us and we failed them all, and hasnt stopped us one bit :))))…
as for the $40, i told you: forget about that ;)))…use it to buy you guys something at Look3 and call it the Annual Bob Black Drinking grant…:)))…next time, no excuses to miss that home-cooked meal ;)))
PETE :))…it comes from the typing class i took in highschool…and you should have seen my artist statement for last year’s EPF…i think it was 5 pages ;)))))))))))))
running
b
CIVILIAN…
please, we must stop these rumors….i DO have hair…and one woman once told me i was a GREAT DANCER…i cannot remember her name, but i love her….
when we meet let’s dance…..you decide for yourself…oh oh, i just revealed your gender..but , i think everybody knew anyway…ok, shhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
hugs, david
MIKE R…
i believe you…i must have said it in the context of as in “continuing to grow”…in that sense for sure i am emerging as well..i hope….anyway, find the piece….thanks…..
You revealed my gender…????
OK, let’s stop the rumors once and for all…
TO ALL,
MR. DAVID ALAN HARVEY HAS LOTS OF HAIR ( loves to shave)
MR.HARVEY knows how to dance
CIVILIAN gender is unknown
Civilian is just emerging as a dancer
GRACIE…
i am listening……i learned everything important from women…while the men were arm wrestling, the women were telling me about life, the sensitivities, showing me the aesthetic….i actually am a pretty good arm wrestler, but i am now going to prune my roses as per everyone’s suggestion….i hope we meet someday….
cheers, david
The bob black drinking grant! I love this guy!
david, quick last note
i re-read your
“all i can feel is my vision for something unique and special in our world of photography..and for heaven’s sake Bob…IT IS HAPPENING right now”…
well, who doesnt believe that more than I do….for HEAVEN’S SAKE david ;)))), you gotta know that what i write here is always in support of burn and photography, i mean, i’ve nearly lost a marriage over the amount of time i spend writing here, talking with photographers, helping them, editing their work, etc…my support of burn/roadtrips is unstinting…ok, enough words…….
well, i guess on line communication is just the shit…
running
cheers
b
DAH ;))
i hope someday too…
as long as you DONT dance with me
and anton will do duet with me
… ill bring my karaoke.
DAH, not found it yet (you owe me an afternoon) but I did find
Feb 22 path to the ring Raul Touzon
our question about the term “emerging” is a fair one…i suppose there are gradations of “emerge”…i sure as hell see myself as emerging….and yes, emerging photographers like Raul can be great workshop teachers i think (i believe i told you that i was teaching at 23 while i was very very emerging)….where the line between emerging and established gets drawn is very subjective, as is everything about photography…
The Medford comment was in a similar vein.
Best wishes,
Mike.
GRACIE…
see what i mean??? rejected again…but, it does not mean that i will not ask another girl to dance…
Ok if Bob is going to write the solution to “Burn Peace” we must force him to make it shorter than the novel ‘War and Peace’.
Can some one give Bob a word-budget please? I think this would be a good time to push Bob to new levels of writing efficiency since his contributions are so heavy on the writing side.
How bout this Bob: you write your solution, post it, then i will then re-write it down to it’s most effecient form without losing even a single note of desired benefit?
i bet i can get your message across with a 50% slice in words, are you up for the bet? ;-)
OK, Mr.Harvey,
I reconsider…YOU can count on ME.
I will dance with you
BUT
I am near my retirement shining golden years …older than many of you BURNians…
and I am kind a tall
and I have this pie tin on my head and
I am always facing East…
Are you still interested …?
No immediate response needed…you can sleep on this
DAH
Hey it’s Ross. Wanted to make sure you got this note so I put it here too… I Hurt my back then I was struck with Swine Flu (not really) just the flu. Anyway, just got back from finally shooting again in the mountains. Would love to talk. I’m emailing you a link to the new Patagonia stuff. Would you take a look and let me know when we can talk again. Hope all is well…
I’m sure the pie tin is fetching.
Fetching indeed :)))
Gracie, Civ – thank you, you’re both very sweet. I hope we meet one of these days.
Perhaps we already have…?
we might…?
Are you into tall bald old guys …hmmm…I don’t think so…:)))
CIVILIAN…
now, that is a TURN ON!!! you found my weakness…..
JIM…
“…when i grow up”…..well amigo, i never grew up, so you are on the right track!!
ROSS…
can we skype or phone next week??? anxious to see the new work….
ALL…
NEW POST IN AN HOUR…just gotta run to the hardware store first…..
cheers, david
“My life has been one great big joke A dance that’s walked A song that’s spoke, I laugh so hard I almost choke When I think about myself.”
Maya Angelou
VIVA…my man you are unstoppable !!!
dude, you rock
By The Way, this is what i’m talking about when you introduce non-pedigree PJ’s into the equation:
Article Here
i can just see how the conversation went for this poor, but now futureless in PJ person:
[After the image runs as news]
Zack: “Hey Mr. Newsroom Photo Editor, how did you like my environmental portrait? Just goes to show you us commercial-based, portrait photographers can do anything these war photographers think they can do!”
Photo Editor: “What Zack? You ‘effing’ staged this shot?”
Zack: Huh? What’s staging?, if you mean i composed it, yeah sure, isn’t it cool how i placed the person perfectly inside the falling diagonals. It wasn’t hard really, they guy in the photo even held the light meter for me to take a few test shots. Don’t know why more people don’t get their subject to help out with the shot, especially out there shooting in all that hard light, only an amateur would even pull out a camera then, why don’t they wait till they have better light to take some of these shots, and while we’re on the subject, as a portrait photographer i find it better to use subjects with really pronounced facial features, why all these old-timer PJ keep using boring faces is beyond me…. and…
Photo Editor: “Um Zack, You’re Fired”
Photo Editor Under-Grumble: ‘this citizen journalism is going to get us in allot of trouble, if we expect these guys to know this stuff and expect them to still get interesting pictures, they are going to tell us that it’s not worth the money we pay them.
Damn, oh well, i retire in a few years, this will be someone else’s problem. I’ll just go become a judge at the WPP and give the people I think I underpaid first prize awards, yeah, that sound loads better.’
Thanks Stoop for putting me onto the article.
DAH, Thanks thats great. Is there a good time Mon or Tues? Or should should I just Skype at random till we connect….
Joe ;))))
i’d take u up on that and, well, i comment the way i drink ;)))…NOT the way i write…, there is a difference ;))))…the actually ‘writing’ gets honed done, though still often lengthy…but yes, a good writer, a good photographers always needs a good editor….:)))))
…but i wont be making that long post tonight…what’s the point…
3 days of meditation and 2 nights in a row of shooting (which put me in the great mood this morning and the reason why i thought i’d try to write) just got withered away…
screw it…
but, by years end will need 2 editors…a PE for the book dummy and a writing editor for the written book…
up for it? :))
running
b
i have published on Burn several established photographers including Martin Parr, Bruce Gilden, James Nachtwey, Steve McCurry
——————————
over 100 posts during the night? Still reading them, but just now David, I only recall Mc Curry as having been a specific FEATURE on BURN, ie. published. No?
I think McCurry was in on a chat.
i think i have a solution (or one part) to at least righting this bronco that seems to have disseminated so much confusion, frustration, anger, criticism, attacks, etc….
——————————-
Bob!!!! Just about to read your long post -(une fois n’ est pas coutume :-))))- but let me fill the glass half-full, not half-empy:
i think i have a solution (or one part) to at least righting this bronco that seems to have disseminated so much ….ENTHUSIASM!
ENTHUSIASM, Bob, all, ENTHUSIASM! When will you get it? ;-)
For crissakes, is BURN a field of shrinking violets, and hyper-sensitive “look what you done to me” weaklings? I don’t think so.
Audrey and Eric may be familiar to what Leo ferre once said:
“A l’ ecole de la poesie, ON SE BAT!” (best translated as “POETRY IS WAR”. Well, BURN is not war, but it ain’t pruning roses and gathering violets either!!! :-)))))))))))
That was Nachtwey and Gilden too I think, Jim. But not published. Parr answered a few questions a couple years ago, en route to Perpignan.
Ah, I miss the days of poetry slams. When you tell folks there is competitive poetry, they laugh hysterically! :)
Poetry is war!
the women were telling me about life, the sensitivities, showing me the aesthetic…
————————————-
OH GOD!!!!!!!!!!!! COME ONNNN! ARRRGGGHHH….. :-)))))))))))))))
(can’t read anymore, just laughing too loud. I love you david, all. Being totally sycophantic here! ahahha)
ACMA, this is for you, I think I caught your mood 3000+ miles away (like Patricia writes):
http://www.pbase.com/uc/image/113068050
davd, there you have it. while floating to earth, you heard childrens voices below. dah=god. just having an experience is all he wanted for us. jay
Herve: “BURN is not war”
…just a lot of friendly fire going on…
herve: en guarde ;))))
:))))
i am not a shrinking violet, as you know ;)))…my original post was to try to fill in the gap and offer boths sides an explanation:
as an explanation for david: why the questions that were asked (by you and others) was NOT about negativity or sour grapes but came as a result of the difference between this year and last: the transition, as you’ve pointed our correctly many times, was not as seemless or as well understood by all. and that the interpretation of your concerns (and others) was in no way a cynical attack on david, the finalists or others, nor was it related to ‘out of luck’ mentality.
and
as an explanation for those who expressed unhappiness (the finalists being established): that in truth nothing has changed about the david’s desire to fund photographers who produce good compelling work, regardless of stature or career.
that was part of my message in my first post…but, then, after i’d written it, just thought david’s interpretation of it seemed like i was criticizing him (the ‘heaven’s sake’ thing)…and i just got tired of doing this…
so there really is no point for me to try to make the bridge…..i do feel that much of this could have been avoided if 1) all the 10 finalists were announced at once and then we spend the 3 weeks looking at their work and 2) those not chosen would NOT invest so much of themselves in awards like this…but, in an open forum, all points of view will flower…ABOVE ALL, we must support and be positive and cheer not only the great work being done by the finalist, but above all, cherish, as photographers, what David has done, first with Road Trips and then EPF and then with Burn…really, there is NO OTHER working photographer that i know who has created such an extraordinary opportunity…
i want those silent readers or sponsors or whoever who read this to know, that the accomplishment that David has generated, the work that has been published, the finalists and last year’s EPF winner PRODUCE. That, in the end, is all that matters. Sean has been an extraordinary captain on that ship just as this year’s winner will me i am sure but the fact that BURN AND THE EPF exist can be attributed to only one thing:
David’s vision and commitment to helping. plain and simple.
He may thing that whatever i’ve written is negative (i still dont understand that, if that’s the case), but what matters is the action: they’re more important than words. I stand behind this endeavor and we should all, not like lemmings, but as appreciative spirits, celebrate the accomplishment.
ultimately, david’s work here is tireless and extraordinary and is damn more generous than nearly the entire world of photography…i know alot of ‘big name’ cats who have NEVER given back to the photographic community, let alone donate their own money to help photographers (although there are some that do)…
anyway, i agree, poetry is war :)))))))))))))))))….or rather, if not guerre than at least a passionate mêlée, …:))
ok, this wilting violet not is leaving school and off to shoot…
running
b
JOE – Burn Peace/War and Peace… HYSTERICAL!
BOB – i love you – but i do not know where you find the energy to write like that. hugs!
ALL – i will say it again….david CAN dance!!! i hope to boogie with him in a week for his birthday too!
David can not only dance, but he can take phantastic photographs at the same time … !
DAH “ironically, i always used to tell my friends that i would do whatever it takes to do my work…and i always meant it…i still do mean it….in my head from the very beginning was always the worst case scenario of bagging groceries for a living and shooting what i wanted on the side…”
Yes, for many, because of circumstances, this is all they will ever have. And it’s enough. the work always comes first.
I keep thinking of a Nat Geo essay that described meeting a former chef of Valéry Giscard d’Estaing who was selling boiled eggs by the side of an african roadside.
Count your blessings and help your fellow man.
Good light,
Mike.
LASSAL (is right)
David can not only dance, but he can take phantastic photographs at the same time
———————————
Sur le pont DAHvignon, on y danse, on y danse
sur le pont DAHvignon, on y DAHnse tout en rond…
http://www.pbase.com/image/113114726
PS: Not a phantastic shot, but definitely….. Sycophantastic!!!! :-))))))
HERVE mon ami,
With that last post you have made a giant step towards redeeming yourself after a day of rather sour expostulating. Vive la vie sycophantastique…..
Grrrls,
RE: DAH can dance
‘preserve the pedicure’ is my motto now
AYOR!!!!! SYCOPHANTASTIQUE!!!
(*At Your Own Risk*)
GRACIE
I’m still waiting for my dance…
a purple dance,
or
red….
doesn’t matter…
waiting patiently….
XO
**
FOR ERIC E!….
i shot, i ran home (only pack 2 boxes of trx), ran back here, now tpying from a students iphone, every fucking time i look through my lens, i keep fucking seein’ ur beautiful boxers…good god, im screwed ;))….so, ok, gotta get back, next song, film loded, just want to give u a bib big shout u: u rock Eric…
for u:
i hopemy tipos arent that bad….
for u, eric e
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7XaoF8bDMcM&feature=related
runng/camerainhand…
tinwed :)))))
bb
Cathy,
sorry for slow reply, i am trying to limit my time in front of the computer ; )
Yes, we lived there for six months…
what’s it like? an oasis of calm, off a grimy highway…
if you’d like to know more about Cholamandal or Tara please feel free to drop me a line
samharris.photo@gmail.com
cheers
WOW the abridged Bob Black!
Mimi Mollica, you have some absolutely kick-ass work..just thought i’d tell you..
best
kat~
The legend:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aES5WD22FBA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYzgYEm3lDM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKc3TKtzKaw&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TF5dk6pNMLI&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSPnVREFsXk&feature=related (Koudelka!)
THANK YOU ALL,
from this day on
I will never EVER…Forever ” question MR.HARVEY’S ability to Dance!
My sincere apologies
to you and to your family
Shame on me …I am a συκοφαντης ** .
**A sycophant (from the GREEK συκοφάντης sykophántēs) is a servile person who, acting in his or her own self-interest, attempts to win favor by flattering one or more influential persons, with an undertone that these actions are executed at the cost of his or her own personal pride, principles, and peer respect.
ΑΓΑΠΗ
KATIE,
“Let us rise up and be thankful, for if we didn’t learn a lot today, at least we learned a little, and if we didn’t learn a little, at least we didn’t get sick, and if we got sick, at least we didn’t die; so, let us all be thankful.”
Buddha (Hindu Prince Gautama Siddharta, the founder of Buddhism, 563-483 B.C.)
YOURS FOREVER
Are A civilian-mass audience and wikipedia one and the same? ………………… hmn a calculated response? ………..
Imants,
“Bad artists copy. Good artists steal.”
Pablo Picasso (Spanish Artist and Painter. 1881-1973)
I love you ( TOO)
Mimi Mollica, you have some absolutely kick-ass work..just thought i’d tell you just in case what Kathleen said did not register.
HAIK ,
oime !!!
Nice to see you around !
Beer on YOU tonight !
Mimi Mollica, you have some absolutely kick-ass work..just thought i’d tell you just in case what Kathleen and Haik said did not register.
I am so happy again
and
I LOVE YOU ALL
“Bad artists copy. Good artists steal.”
Pablo Picasso (Spanish Artist and Painter. 1881-1973)
———————————————-
Sorry ACMA, that was Stravinsky who said that.
PS: Did you like my gift yesterday?
HAIK,
enough …you and Imants …you sycophants !!!
focus HERVE FOCUS
“Lesser artists borrow, great artists steal.”
Igor Stravinsky
BUT
“Bad artists copy. Good artists steal.”
Pablo Picasso (Spanish Artist and Painter. 1881-1973)
Your present is already on my magnetic wall…LOVE what else…hmmmmm
DAH, can’t find your Medford quote but did find this from Feb 26th
“MIKE R… yes, licensing for a specific period, specific use , is the standard practice of all agencies…but, for sure it should be made clear to all photographers that there is never a need to sacrifice ownership…remember you automatically own your work..you would have to sign a piece of paper granting your rights in order to lose these rights.. by the way, i found a nice “single” of yours yesterday…coming soonest… cheers, david ”.
It’s called having a senior moment David. Don’t worry about it, in about five minutes you won’t remember what you were worrying about anyway. Laughing David, laughing.
Incidentally, going through the archives here was a blast! Next time someone posts “new work, more, more” just reply “Archives”.
Best,
Mike.
dearest katiecakes,
somebody once said: if the body blows the whistle
you need to slow down and listen…
(pardon me – i think i said that)
i hope somebody is making you laced;) chicken soup
if i wasnt so far away….. hope you feel mucho better soon.
TO ALL,
Since I have written the 500 posts can I reserve the 1000 …
Can I have it ?
Thank you in advance for your response!
KATIE,
see my Gracie loves you
Yours Forever
WAKE UP BURNIANS,
Go out and shoot ! shoot like there is Tomorrow! cause, there is …!!!
or shall I call ERIC and his friends to wake you UP !!!
VIVA !!!
I am BURNing
I am BURNing
My essay is coming up
I am the finalist of the month
cause babe ,
I am the only one
who can shoot
from the heart
I am BURNing
I am BURNing
Only a month left
to torture the BURNians
I will be gone with the wind
and they will not even notice
I am BURNing
I am BURNing
Cause I will be next to them
I will be everywhere
cause I am the Civilian
cause I am ONE of THEM
nannnannna….nannannna
I am BURNing
I am BURNing
P.S POETRY is WAR !!!
laughing historically …like DAH
MIKE R….
i still do want to publish your playground photograph….after june 12, we will resume normal publishing and you will be right up top….
the rights info is correct…or did i miss something???
cheers, david
O.k. David, no worries; so it’s the playground picture!
As for the rights info, I just copied and pasted your post from Feb 26th. it was part of a discussion at the time.
Some really good work here from EPF. Thanks to all involved.
Best wishes,
Mike.
ok, I can’t wait any more …
The next is mine…
CELEBRATE THE 1000 POST
VIVA !!! BEER AND OUZO ON BURN MAGAZINE !!!
1000 ,1000,1000, 1000, 1000,
“Thousands of candles can be lit from a single candle, and the life of the candle will not be shortened. Happiness never decreases by being shared.”
Buddha (Hindu Prince Gautama Siddharta, the founder of Buddhism, 563-483 B.C.)
LOVE YOU
1001 sounds better
Civilian
Please don´t say these things while i am feeling vulnerable:
¨Only a month left
to torture the BURNians
I will be gone with the wind
and they will not even notice¨
Gracie..
air hugZ…not getting too close cuz you just never know how these things might spread electronically..
Haik
You made me laugh..Mimi are you paying attention this morning? No, i think Mimi´s out shooting her next masterpiece. It was so refreshing to actually see midtones again, wasn´t it?
ALL
So glad to see the mood lighten up a bit around here..
SYCOPHANT(from The Devil´s Dictionary by Ambrose Bierce):
One who approaches Greatness on his belly so that he may not be commanded to turn and be kicked. He is sometimes an editor.
best:
kat-
KATIE,
FOCUS KATIE ,THE KATIE, THE only Street Fighter,
“Cause I will be next to them
I will be everywhere
cause I am the Civilian
cause I am ONE of THEM”
Are you on Tamiflu or something antiviral ?
NO worries, you STRONG, you fight in the streets and you fight here
YOU are a real BURNIAN!!!
WE need your sword tongue and your fiesty writing ..you are just fine
start dancing like DAH, sweat and start moving the camera in front of peoples faces..
Well maybe
I have to respect My Gracie’s wish:
“: if the body blows the whistle
you need to slow down and listen…”
GRACIE
GO back to ZZZ, don’t kiss anyone…:))
YOURS FOREVER …I am sending good energia …I am even writing poems …I am next to you
LOVEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
Civlian
Yes, Gracie´s advice..she is a virus fighter all by herself. She comes armed with all that sooths, sometimes cuts ever so slightly..like when your cat wants you to pet her and gives you those little love bites..her unique music that´s somehow always so visual and also palpable..she is a homeopathic force to be recokoned with and just the smile and the soft exhale when i read her thoughts are enough to send these nasty-assed germs back where they came from.
I know Civi..your spirit will always be on Burn, your waves washing over all of us over and over again on the Greek shores as we wait patiently for your sudden reappearance. You bring only good..so what you leave behind will last and last..no rancor, no stale bread..you and Gracie, the Yin of Burn.
con todo amor
katie
Civilian
and now, yes…
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz…
have a wonderful day..
kat
IMANTS….
yea, i shoulda stopped it at 1001….but i can’t….i am busting it and Anton is busting it to create our Burn presentation for Look3….i promised you i would write a new story, get a new dialogue going and i have not done it…sorry….the best of intentions, but i cannot get out of what i am doing right now…by the way, are you totally set with your essay?? i do not see it as a finished draft essay at the moment, but i think we are close….in any case, you are to be one of the first essays up after the 13th….lucky 13…..
KATHLEEN…
the mood swings one way , then another…but, it is all good…..i was just skyping with Joe and i told him and i tell you and i will tell everyone, that all of this scramble that is happening right now IS creativity at its best….something really special is happening….edit all these pictures down, edit all these words down and we HAVE something….the product of online salon…and there is not one piece of it that does not have value….organic my dear organic….
ok, i have “miles to go before i sleep, miles to go before i sleep” (Frost)….
bye for now…
cheers, david
TO ALL,
BURNIANs
The Drifters – Under The Boardwalk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zV6WgRAN9FU
katie, yes organic stuff on the shores…under the boardwalk
Mr.Harvey…miles to go !!!:)))
Pete ;)))..
i will not leave any more long comments…last night i re-read, after i’d returned, all 1000, plus all the comments under all the finalists….it was a revelation…
bb
TO THE BOB BLACK,
“When we talk in company we lose our UNIQUE tone of voice, and this leads us to make statements which is no way correspond to our real thoughts.”
Friedrich Nietzsche 1844-1900, German Philosopher
YOU ARE UNIQUE and kinda crazy BUT:
“No great genius has ever existed without some touch of madness.”
Aristotle
SEE,WE are just jealous …never change
I still think Mark Twain had a better mustache than Nietzsche, but I understand the point of view of those who might think otherwise.
Well, actually, I dont
What the Fire , are you drinking Akaky ?
katie and everybody…
‘no rancor, no stale bread’ – how about rotten aged cheese… luv it with wine and everything else…
yknow what you guys? ive been looking at people’s websites, reading the cynics, candor, humor, teasing, reading all the words, every single bit, all of 1001 plus plus posts and joe’s friday wo(a)nderings and ALL of bob black’s musings…
i just feel good about all this… dont you???
(today is a lovely day… hugging myself and all of you – pay it forward)
CIVILIAN,
Neither AKAKY nor AKAKY IRL imbibes, which means that all of what you see here is the product of a completely sober mind. When you think of it, that’s a very scary thought.
AKAKY,
“I have nothing to declare but my genius.”
Oscar Wilde (Irish Poet, Novelist, Dramatist and Critic, 1854-1900)
I see. You have NOTHING to declare !!!
“Genius – the ability to produce fantastic amounts of equally fantastic bullshit that all makes perfect sense”
Jason Zebehazy
LOVE YOU A
“I don’t want to be a genius – I have enough problems just trying to be a man”-Camus
And you are DA MAN !!!
on the road..
eric – superb to see you on the front page – congratulations.. and the second trip to russia is a treat as well..
on the road..
d
ALL….
i am working very hard…..with Mike Courvoisier with me here now and with Anton in Belgium….ideas are coming to me fast and clear ….when all the dust settles, it will be revealed to you how i have been thinking all along….what is so clear to me, will soon be clear to you…
thanks for hanging…..
cheers, david
DavidB
we send you the Best Energia …Enjoy LIFE
TO the DREAM TEAM,
Thank you for ALL your hard work !!!
It is clear to US that you are working very hard …
we are waiting the dust to settle …
and we try very hard not to bite our toe nails
NOT to kill each other
NOT to be the smartest “cut and paste” quotie
NOT to Start breaking the online salon
NOT to hang each other
NOT to eat processed food but only Organic
since we are breathing
LIFE IS BEAUTIFUL
I NEED new BURNIANS,
come over
Let’s celebrate …let’s talk about photography, life, birthdays, deaths, food
drinks, workshops…
old BURNIANS you know what to do
Great to see a finalist responding to comments ……. if he gets the grant I am sure he can weave some magic
if he gets the grant…he better buy some beers :)
Imants …I guess we will see you after the 13th …lucky number !!!
P.S Double check the editing ,Mr.Harvey thinks you are close…focus Imants :))
KATIE,
I am sending some organic HOT peppers with GARLIC from my garden.
I am not a flower person …hmmmmm.
OH, don’t hold anything in (…) you will feel much better !
YOURS FOREVER
Ive been looking at the essays and thinking who should get the grant, and I have an idea so far from the 5 finalists. Dont know if it would be OK to share it and my thinking as for who and why.
Eric Espinosa, I’ve just read your post on Lords of The Ring. Thanks for taking the time to post and for your answers to questions. A very articulate reply, giving credit where it is due and doing credit to yourself in the process. I look forward to seeing more from you in the future (sorry, the NOW) and wish you every success.
Mike.
It is refreshing to see one of the finalists taking time to actually post in the thread about their essay. I guess those who haven’t have had their reasons. David said one was on vacation and didn’t want to take time from her vacation to comment. So be it. But it is nice to hear from the finalist themselves. It’s a good sign if a finalist is interested enough to post.
TO JIM,
For you,
Santana & CLAPTON – Jingo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pAf3gqdCrDs&feature=related
TO ALL let’s Jingo
TO ALL THE BURNIANS,
and for all those who are having the blues
I LOVE YOU ALL
Bob Dylan & Eric Clapton – Don’t Think Twice, It’s Alright
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ole7-bR_r-M&feature=related
COME ON …VIVA
JIM…ALL
some photographers are shy to write…that is why i have mentioned so many times that it is quite deceiving to think the audience here equals the writers here….
Alejandro, as i have have written at least three times has no internet until june 4…Jenn told me that she would jump in and Michael Brown also wrote…Simona also out of touch for a few more days….i think you will see that the 90% of the finalists never write a word here, yet visit Burn at least occasionally….you are attaching quite a lot of weight to the mandate of the writers here…a certain personality finds posting comments rewarding…others simply do not…i do not think we should judge a photographer at all by whether or not they respond to comments…i think it is great when they do and i encourage it, but i would never think it an imperative…
you wrote earlier “at last an emerging photographer” in your reference to Eric Espinosa….and the definition of “emerging” does have some others confused as well…i think this confusion is the same thing that hangs up so many in general about what is or is not “success” and leads so many to draw absolutely wrong conclusions about themselves, their career, and the alleged success of others…false values just throw everyone off…
even though i am running this EPF, i am on record for my whole career in not attaching much importance at all to any kind of award….my own awards (magphotog of year, wrld press etc) are in card board boxes in the attic……except for my bowling trophy i got when i worked at the Richmond Times Distpatch.. you never see my awards listed in my bio and i have had some of the best…
in other words, i do not judge my own work based on what others think of it (positive or negative), nor should anyone….photographers have to believe in themselves..period…their MUST be an inner strength above all else….
i am only doing this EPF for the very practical reason of putting at least some to work (your very mandate) not to somehow “elevate” the perceived value of their work..out of all of the work i saw probably 25 deserve this grant…close close calls on all of it…so close that i even added an 11th against the wishes of the jurors who just do not want to see so many…most jurors asked me why i did not have it down to 5 finalists which is more customary in these grants..so i am way over the top in the number of finalists..
i really wanted the jury to see the depth and breadth of photographers today in both journalism and art..by the way, i think that except for Simona, these are all documentary photographers, some more “cutting edge” than others, but all documentary…i hope you saw my post comparing Alejandro with Mathew Brady who is certainly considered documentary…anyway, we can arm wrestle over that one when i see you in Texas….
i judge photographers or view their progress not at all by what awards they have won nor what assignments they may have had….for example, Eric is not a professional photographer, Mike Brown is…of course Mike is going to have done some assignments…..Eric of course will have not…their respective developments however is quite similar and i think if Eric were “out there” in the profession applying his talents, then he would have just as much success as Mike…in other words, they are “talent-wise”,development-wise quite comparable…
i suppose i look at a photographer and measure a photographer the same way we do when taking new photographers into Magnum…we take in “emerging photographers”….we could care less about awards given or assignments made prior …..we only look at the WORK…..some photographers come into Magnum who have a bit of a resume, some have none….we really do not care about resume….Mike is just as much of an emerging photographer as is Eric imo….with respect to their own personal and professional lives they are in exactly the same position…..the jurors may view it differently, but i doubt it ..i will bet not one asks to see the resumes…they might, but i doubt it….they will just look at Eric’s work and compare it to Mike’s work…
i seriously doubt if the jurors will have heard of any of these finalists nor be aware of any previous anything….i know some of these finalists, but only because i am deep into the education bit …most iconic photographers do not notice anyone new until their third book or something..,(ie Sobol is viewed as emerging at Magnum)..and they sure as hell are not going to be influenced by what another set of judges in another place thought anyway…quite the contrary if you know these egos like i know these egos….it is only logical that a fine photographer is going to pick up multiple awards in a given time frame…good work is usually viewed by all sets of jurors in approximately the same way….
probably the one factor that will swing the jury one way or another besides the work will be to try and imagine what additional funding would do for a particular photographer…who needs the funding , and who probably does not…every photographer thinks they need funding, but i can imagine this weighing in to the selection here….but just as i did not look into every photographer’s bank account to see if they really needed the funding, neither will the jurors….the perceived value of the work will reign…
you and i have wrangled a bit, but i always try to answer your questions….you ask some good ones, and i think you like to tweak us all with others…you are doing a good job of that!! people ask me behind the scenes if i am upset by you Jim…i will say publicly what i say privately…..i trust you…i do not care if we agree on anything, i think you are a straight up guy just saying/asking what is on your mind…trust and agreeing have nothing to do with each other….and you are NOT at all typical of the small town newspaperman…your world is way beyond that…you like to sound like it sometimes, but you are not….
ok, i do not expect you to agree with anything i just said..cool…i mean it…cool….
and i do know one thing, because you have said it so many times…this little venture is my baby…i do have a vision…nobody’s “vision” is RIGHT…..but i know you support my right to do it….our aesthetic sensibilities do not match most of the time nor do our definitions of art/documentary…so what?? no big deal…i do think we match 100% on the goals of supporting the new generation and share the witnessing of a new era that does not appear on the surface “friendly”…however, just by being here and lending your support, you are indeed lending a hand and WE just might make a difference after all….most appreciated…
cheers, david
Rafal
Hello! happy Sunday to you :)) Just read your response on Sakhalin where you talk about over-exposure being a filler critique. I disagree. I am not bitching about over-exposure in order to nit-pik. In this case the overly bright area hindered my enjoyment and comprehension of the photo´s intent.
When i was teaching myself photography and very hung up on technical things, i found a book titled ¨The Tao of Phootgraphy¨ by Tom Ang. What he taught me (among other things) was over-exposure? under exposure? no problema. The important thing is balance. Yin Yang and all that. A light meter measures the final effect of an exposure on the print, that is, how the scene will translate into the photograph. This became my mantra. What´s happening with the light in my scene, how will it affect what i am trying to convey and what can i do with this machine to make sure that i adequately convey it.
In the dog photograph, there is so much over-exposed area that the dog appears to be floating in air completely separate from the scene, without context or connection to the snow, as if he was cut and pasted in (and no, i am certainly not implying he was C&P, just that he looks flat and unreal). When i saw this photo the first time it was published i could not understand what was happening. I had a credibility disconnect. There were/are many who loved this particular photo even more than the others and that´s fine. We all find our own balance. From my critical viewpoint, the photographer failed to achieve an adequate (as in zero) balance in the scene from light to dark to give context to the dog´s presence. More information, through a somewhat improved transition from the dark interior to the snow immediately beyond the window to the almost blinding sunlight beyond would have anchored that dog firmly in the snow and not floating like some trick of the northern lights in the air.
I am not around BUZZ and just came in here to respond to you personally, Rafal. So any who care to add anything, please know i will unfortunately be unable to respond.
Thanks Rafal and my very best to you and your family:
kat-
.. maybe Jim will closer his eyes and dream again
RAFAL…KATHY
Mike’s dog picture is the print i most want from him…..
Very well put and explained David.
I kind of agree with David. The dog photo was the one photo that I felt a connection to in the essay. The dog was looking at me! The photographer directly connected to something. I would have liked to see a little more detail in the photo, though.
David, Jim, Rafal
You see? this is what i mean. It´s purely individual. And i knew this when i specifically selected that photo to talk about, that so many really liked it. But this is my reaction and those are my reasons. And really, i am glad the majority prefers this photo than the other way around. It shows that Michael successfully conveyed what he was trying to say with the most number of viewers. I am not interested in being right, just being able to explain why a photograph does not work for me.
best
kat-
I wish ,I wish I was A LORD OF THE RING !
BUT
Can I take home # 16 after the storm … fades away…?
LOVE
Kat you rock
No Need To Reply I was just passing by :)
Busy this week-end, just read a few lines, but David, just an idea: why don’t you let the BURN readership select, anonymously, the last 5?
Not necessary, but just an idea that brings back a bit of the BURN community here in being connected with a grant that owes its existence to your enthusiasm about our online community, and the talent you found coming from it, writing or shooting.
Herve, trust me, you don’t want a committee of thousands selecting finalists, “American Idol” not withstanding.
Herve. We already are connected. We get first look. We KNOW some of the entrants(or their online selves anyway). we get to comment and agree and disagree and argue again..first. We get to talk to the artists, and among ourselves, right now, while its happening. we got it all here dude, just have to reach out and touch it.
John
The New York Times asked readers to submit their Polariod photos on Tuesday, and by Thursday they had about 1000.
They edited the submissions to 406(!) and posted them on their blog Lens:
http://lens.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/05/29/readers-photos/
It looks like underestimating your audience might be a big mistake. These photographs are evidence that a general audience is, in fact, an extremely sophisticated one. If they are capable of making complex, innovative, beautiful work in their spare moments, doesn’t it follow that they would expect even more from their “professional” image makers?
We can all rant and argue here about what makes a “good” photograph… how to classify, how to judge, what it all means… in the end, isn’t it the audience that has the final say?
And, if they do, doesn’t this group of pictures, submitted by the readership of a newspaper, show us, by their example, what they expect from photographs?
Just wondering.
the NYTimes polaroid show is an example of why the entire idea of awards or comparison or competition is an absurdity…i saw the show this morning…before running…and looked at it 3 times (yes, all fucking 400 or so polaroids) before starting to write my final assignment for La blog, ….each one is extraordinary and some of the artists just broke my heart wide open…another example of when we begin to deign what is and isnt great work we only delude ourselves….a miraculous effort and one that literally had me in tears this morning….
the making of photographs is an eternal one…and that does not abide calculation or segregation….only that we are, in our sublime need to speak, cable of still tending brilliance from the scraps and detrius of the world around us…
thanks Mike….and for a moment, i thought i was the only sad dude who spent time on that slideshow ;)))
hugs
b
All..
Good afternoon from Ugly Rialto California..:)
I’m in DA HOOD once again for the rest of the day..
I got some sexy, super cheesy portraits for you
coming up soonest..
Now I’m in the process to “convince” the ladies to
trust my “black background”…
And I mean literally..
..laughing…
Stay tuned..
More IN DA HOOD tonight…( I hope )…
peace
THANK YOU ,
I am a polaroid finalist !!!
The bar has been raised!!!
MASS AUDIENCE is my name and I cann’t be underestimated :))
Viva Beer in DA HOOD tonight !!!
TO BURN magazine,
OUZO on me for this one !
MY congrats to Anton, Michael Courvoisier , Kerry Payne and to the BURN team !
Amazing …
Wonderful… Burn deserves some buzz… the photographers posting here are awesome and deversified… we need more organizations like yours!
Props and cheers!
It’s hard to draw much of a conclusion about how amazing a photographer every mom and dad are with a Polariod from this group of photos. They asked “Lens” readers, not the general readership, to submit Polaroids, which self selects those “into” photography for the most part. So everyone ruffled through their old Polariods and submitted the best ones. These were not from a “general” audience.
If you want to devalue the work of serious photographers, fine. But don’t do it by comparing what they do to a bunch of fuzzy, faded, off-color Polariods. Good, grief.
HERVE…
love you dude, but that is the worst idea yet!!! how in the world would a few thousand readers here go through a thousand entries??? i do not think you are grasping the process of selection….and what would be the point?? as a photographer i would never care about a populist vote of some kind…take the movies…few pay attention to the “peoples choice” awards….everybody loves to hate the real Academy Awards!!!
BOB…HERVE
awards are not an “absurdity”….many photographers have finished important projects with grants…how do you think Frank finished The Americans??? grants/awards just simply need to be kept in their proper perspective….and while you are writing on this please explain to our readers the great difference between a grant and a contest….
isn’t all this discussion about whether grants are good or bad or how we should choose finalists etc getting a little yawn yawn tedious???
when somebody tells me three or more times “i don’t care” it makes me think they really care….
cheers, david
Don’t do contests……. the grants I have been involved with, required a educational program which students could access as a direct learning unit as well as a springboard of further investigation.
Well, I think when there is cash involved contests can be ok to enter. Things have been lean for me money wise lately and then some little known Bulgarian Photo Biennial I sent my work to back in February just transferred me $565 on Friday (400 Euro) after I won one of their prizes and now I can pay my June rent in Bucharest. So. . .
I learnt something contests are about the money……….
Imants! I was about to be out on the street! So I am very happy to be able to pay another month!
…….so you enter contests to pay rent……. not a reliable system
IMANTS…
so, what is your recommendation??
Kathleen,
I just meant that for me the technicals are a very distant consideratioon. Well, unless a photo is so fucked up technically its just hideous, but I didnt get that from any of the essays so far. I rarely make a comment on technicals, and I cant understand peple who nit pick by importing things to photoshop to look at the channels and whatever. Id never do that, Id never want to do that.
The dog picture, hmm..you know, when I first saw it it didnt look like a real dog, it looked, and still looks to me no matter how much I know its a real dog, like a picture etched into glass of a dog. So maybe I get what you mean about it, it could do with less overexposure in that area of the picture.
Totally off topic but… I had a few hours to spare today so decided to have a proper look at a couple of iconic agency websites, NOOR and VII.
Is it just me, or does anybody else think that the work by the NOOR photographers is more intense? Practically every NOOR essay stopped me in my tracks, whereas I thought many of the recent VII essays were pretty lightweight. The NOOR work just seemed so more creative, stronger and intense. As David often says, it had real authorship about it.
I looked at Jan Grarup’s Patti Smith essay in comparison with similar subjects on VII and it was like night and day. I know this is only a personal opinion, and there was strong work on VII, but NOOR’s work is amazing!!
Davin; I’m pleased to see that you’ve fended the wolf from the door for another month. I’ve been fortunate to have had a really good month, but next month looks decidedly dodgy!!
I had a major sponsorship proposal fall flat on Friday. There were a couple of things about it that made me feel uneasy, so I was sort of expecting it. I was also told by a mag that three articles I was counting on for next month had been held back a month (due to revenue issues…).
Anyway to cut a long story short, it put me in a bit of a grump, but I had to go and shoot an under 18 year old gig later that night. Had a great night, didn’t shoot anything super special, but just enjoyed the company of a bunch of young kids having a ball to a thrash metal band. I did make some good contacts for future portraits to add to my project, that I’ll probably begin shooting in the next week or so.
I am being continuously amazed at how open these kids are to an old codger like me. And how a bunch of genuine young kids can make a grumpy old codger feel much better. The restorative powers of youth I suppose.
Cheers
Pay your rent etc by other means, figure out how important your work is……. drinking, smoking, restruants, holidays etc all come under pressure here. Writing texbooks taught me how to work full time, write and focus, in other words if you go to the theatre leave your camera at home. Sure it’s not ideal or easy but work within your means, I was going to have another show this year but the money was spent buying materials and building en suite for the guests room. People can now stay, eat, enjoy etc in greater comfort ………………… I can show another year. No money to print the digital age still lets me work even dummy runs for future film stuff.
…. it’s about sacrifice and I don’t have to depend on the lottery called contests. Entering contests costs money and time based on hope, tiling the bathroom is the same but I know the result
KATHLEEN…RAFAL…
imo, if that dog picture were not “overexposed”, if that dog was not “floating” or “etched” , it would not have the same effect at all..normally, i do not like blown out highlights, but somehow it works for me with the dog photograph…i suppose because these blown out highlights are framed by the window it “holds”…
ALL.
if we are going to keep the loft space in NYC as a gallery we have to move on it soonest…so, if you want something to chew on for awhile , think about how we are going to take in prints from you….
we will have to figure out some way to make sure we have the most viable prints up on the wall and in the drawers….creating the events to be built around your prints will not be too difficult….but we have to come up with way to make these choices….we will just not be able to hang everyone’s favorite picture for example…however, i think we will have several venues in several cities…i just love alternative exhibition spaces….old warehouses, train stations, barns, turned exhibition hall etc etc…
anyway, think of an equitable but practical way to select the prints for the gallery…i will soon appoint a gallerist who may indeed become the final arbiter , but let me get your opinions…
cheers, david
David, I never said that. I thought it was obvious I meant to let the readership vote the last 5 out the last 10, or 25 (doesn’t have to be this year) that ONLY YOU selected.
In a way, that would not have to be a definite vote, but you could take that vote into consideration, still youd’ be the last judge. I was only seeing this possiblity because you said there was 25 extremely close, and damned near impossible to please the judges pleading for 5 only.
I think it would be great to have the BURN community to have a different participation than the rest of the year, involve us in a decision, not just commenting.
David, love you too, SYCOPHANTASTICALLY, but so often you have read me wrong on RT and here on BURN too. No wonder you think I come with stupid ideas….. :-)))
I do not mind being wrong, though. and this last idea may very well be wrong, after all. Just thinking aloud, throwing stuff in the air, it may fall on its back, DOA, or carrying a seed.
The dog as head space ..conceptually, yes ………. aesthetically no ……… but sometimes we don’t need to enjoy the image to understand where it is coming from.
Thanks for the info on the NY Times polaroid show, Mike and Bob, and David, I checked: I wrote “…choose the last 5”, not “choose the finalists”.
It was also clear I was specifically responding to the difficulty of narrowing choices between too many close talents.
In the end, the book and print buying public, populist or not, will make that choice when the dust setlles around a whole generation of photographers. IMO.
IMANTS…
i agree completely with the sacrifice concept….do whatever you must to do the work you must….
i still think you are confusing contests with grants…two different animals…would you not try for a Guggenheim to support your work?? you really think the grant process a lottery?? if you do, then of course you put your efforts somewhere else…however with so many pretty significant grants out there, i would imagine some would just flat out be able to finish a project if they had additional funding…but at the same time, i certainly do see the peril of a photographer scrambling around spending all of their time applying for grants…it seems like some kind of balance, between shooting and seeking funding by whatever means necessary, is the trick….
HERVE….
sorry, i must have misunderstood you…reading too fast, too late at night…..but i was teasing you anyway and never said you had a “stupid idea”….
of course the readership here should be involved more than in commenting…Bob is now an editor seeking new talent…Joe is to become a columnist….as is Akaky…..Kathleen is our ethics judge……Young Tom Hyde is our text and research editor…Anton runs all the tech stuff and will soon add more editorial duties…Kerry created an amazing biz plan, Chris Bradley from Ogilvy is creating a marketing strategy…Anna B. may run the gallery….all these folks were originally commenters…and i have never even met in person three of the people i mentioned above.
i think we can come up with some sort of “readers choice” interaction…..help me to think about it please….
i listen to ideas from everyone here all the time…..the original Burn meeting was an open invitation…and our upcoming one at my cottage after Look3 will involve various writers here…you my friend are always invited as you well know…..please come…..
agreed…the print and book buying sector will determine who is who for the next generation…
cheers, david
I only don’t apply for grants because I would never be able to fulfil my initial projected intent, I just go off the rails and take it on another road even if it is doom. My last shows have always turned out very different than how I started working (both turned upside down in the last few days reprinted and reframed etc)…… ah it works for me others would find it difficult.
Guggenheim !!!! probably not. My proposal would be on these lines : Check out my site, this is what I do if it fits your psyche great. If you want to offer me money to do stuff, sure thanks but it will not be what you expected. This is why the net is great one can do stuff, like this http://www.etrouko.com.au/imants.htm in the morning and get on with other things like walking the dog and making chicken soup because there is no paid work today, but there is a short contract coming up. Can the Gugg offer me that?
I never said a grant was a lottery but these dime a dozen contests are
IMANTS…
sounds like you are rebelling against something which has no boundaries to rebel against…what grant offering has “expectations” as you describe?? being able to go off in your own direction is the mantra of most grants in the first place…you are assuming restrictions which i do not think exist in any grant program i know..
we posted simultaneous it seems…
All grants have a set protocol. I doubt if anyone will give me money to keep on doing what I am doing now
Try some of our visual arts grants here in OZ, a game of hoop jumping. Anyway I have only been doing photographic work since 2005, so I am still a novice……. trouble is that like my sculptures that turned into text and marks my photographic work is heading the same way.
IMANTS….
we must be reading different grant offerings…most of the better grants just tell the photographer to “fly” as far as they can …why would your work not be appropriate for funding??? since the work i know of yours is clearly not commercial i would think it perfect for funding…anyway, what you are doing is quite out on the edge and you clearly have a point of view, so however you are doing what you are doing, keep doing it!!!
…….. but I am not really a photographer just hapen to use a camera as one of my tools
Imants
Have you ever seen the work of David Wojnarowicz?
just wondering..
kat~
DAH
Sorry to interrupt..it’s just i was looking at Imants work and thought right away of David’s and wanted to catch Imants before he leaves..
kat
DAH,
since you are still up… just thinking…
once look3 is over, would it be logistically more possible to have the burn gallery up online.. prints inventory would be what we have already seen so far to pick and choose from a clickable gallery.
it would just be physically taxing to anton to set this up but so far with what he has done with this it might just be cut and paste… i wouldnt know… not a techie here either…
yes.. yes… yes.. different to feel and see prints in your hands blah blah, but i think it would be the beginnings of a gallery though online version which you can take off later on when the kibbutz is up and going…
like print on demand kinda thing… so no wasted inks, etc etc just initial programming into the pixels which thousands follow anyway…
then maybe when burn world gets to have a party then we can all bring our prints and bring a big sharpie pen for people to sign with… what do you think?
and then… maybe an auction thing
with one of ur used camera bags with a signed Cuba print, the one that jim powers likes
or like stuff your famous friends left you
while hurriedly leaving your kibbutz after a long night and morning can be auctioned too…
though… hmmm international shipping might be a problem? since postal will again go postal…
Hi Gracie!
DAH,
yeah i was thinking, what about deciding on themes for various group shows for let’s say a year. Then have an upload application here like you do for photos, only instead of for publishing here, they could be for whatever show the photographer wants to be considered for. You could have a specified limit from each applicant. And you just file these possibilities and then make a selection and order the prints from the photographers and wham, you have your show. Of course you’d be viewing photos till your eyes cross but if you thought about having some interns or something they help out intitially…Then some show could be Invitation only..some could be prints from those previously published. I mean the possiblities are endless.
Not sure if i even hit the target here but just some ideas..
kat~
Hey Gracie
I think David went to get himself a cold beer..
*wink*…
hi kathie… you pixelly sound great…
i did read what you wrote about 5 times and still couldnt get a visual…
maybe my eyes are staying closed too long while im trying to get a visual…
well ill read again… hmmm… zzzing…just thinking… zzzing..
well thats my cue..
pssfftt… think David went somewhere cuz he’s had too much cold beer *wink wink*
hey Gggggrrrrraaaaccciiieeee
pixelly i am great, physically, still sick though improving slowly..
can’t get a visual? hahaha..i don’t think there is one..just shows with different titles, the way galleries do it and an upload mechanism here so David can pick the photos he likes..don’t worry though, i’m ready to zzzz too..long day staring at the walls, listening to the rain.
gnight, grrl…
kathie
help me to think about it please….
—————————–
Sure David. I see all the names helping already in your post, but I do not see that guy in it, ah, what’s his name, Herve I think…:-)))). He’s a smartass, writes too much, and always “have ideas”. Give him some work, let’s see how he responds under pressure, let him walk the talk. :-)))
katiecakes…
owws, i see. ive not been to too many galleries. i was reading one of your posts silently…
didnt know you are a teacher girlie… so that means, just civi and me …
will never ever get anything on here… im sure once the fline swu flies away
youll be working on your entry…
emm… take the peach lookin pills tonight… not the white…
good for enhancing the imaginings of dancing WITH the rain on your rooftop
gnite m’dear
Rafal:
Gotcha, thanks for responding..
DAH
i see what you mean about Michael’s photo but..mmm…can’t quite buy it..i still need that dog anchored in the real world a little better than he is now. But i’m sure that print will look damned good on the new Kibbutz Gallery wall :))…
ok..now to zzzzzzz
(CIVILIAN—i am watching YOU!)
kat~
hi herve,
hahaha. there’s nothing subliminal about david’s posts fer sure…
well, im sure youd be the first to jump in and help if you could, long distance and all…
but at least you’ve been quite active in postings and at least,
you have been thinking this unGODly hour…
I read too fast too, David. Missed the “cottage” invitation. I cannot make it to LOOK3, also need to be here in SF on the 16th of June. I also just committed myself to a money-earning chore Tuesdays and Wednesdays, but tentatively, what woud be the dates of the gathering?
Gracie
i don’t know squat, am not a teacher, but will work on my entries :))) that i can do..the pills are already swallowed, head is swimming, feeling a little wobbly..
*waving bye as she falls off her computer chair splat on the rug, giggles, rights herself and wanders off to bed*
kat
David Alan
I suggest you explore creating a Burn online gallery where people can order prints.
First, while a gallery and shows in galleries are great, they are only accessable to a relative few. I think that much greater sales potential could be realized with a BURN online gallery and shopping cart. I would suspect that many “fine art” photographers who actually derive significant income from print sales do so online rather than at a gallery.
I’m also pretty sure that those same photographers do not carry a big stock of prints, but print on demand.
Digital technology makes this very practical. Those who whould like to contribute to a Burn gallery could supply digital files rather than prints. Prints would only be made if there is a sale. Buyers who demand a signed print would be charged for extra shipping. A print would then be sent to the photographer for a signature, then forwarded to the buyer.
There are hordes of online galleries, but check out Greg Gormans. I heard him speak at a recent Epson Print Academy, http://www.gormanphotography.com/gorman.html
David
If I understood correctly the prints will be choosen from pictures published at BURN only?
I think Gordon’s idea of an online Burn gallery is one of the most innovative I have read here.
In addition to artists supplying digital files, those artists who so desire could print their photographs if their medium is film. Anyway, it could certainly work both ways. Burn could maybe take a cut for administrative costs etc for every print sold.
If for example a customer wanted a print, it could come directly from the photographer or directly from the ‘Burn office’. Either way, all transactions would be done through Burn management (a sort of middle man) and the print distribution to the customer is done on a case basis. Because so many artists I have seen on Burn are using various mediums, then it may be more practical for Burn to contact the photographer in question who may then print and post it after signing it. Or it could be done directly from Burn as Gordon suggested. Anyway, the possibilities are endless.
Case in point: Burn receives the request for a print from an online customer. Burn gives the options to the customer of the style of print – if it is not already stated on the website catalogue. A hand print maybe more expensive than one that is downloaded and printed digitally. Also, signature maybe more expensive. Perhaps the photographer doesn’t have to do anything themselves during this process. Alternatively, the customer may want a hand printed black and white, so Burn contacts the photographer and gets a proposed time frame for this print and postage. Or, they may want a digital print with signature, and it maybe the case that the photographer does that at home and it will save Burn’s time. Like I said, each case maybe different DEPENDING on the medium…
But, I think that Gordon nailed it! Jim, I think your position here as the ‘Powers Proposal Man’ is under threat! :-) Keep them coming.
Perhaps even that could operate in conjunction with the proposed gallery/space in the loft? Why does there have to be ONLY one outlet for sales? The two could sustain one another. Burn could take a cut from online sales (commission) and this could contribute to the Loft rent, administrative costs and beer money for the annual Burn party slosh fund!
Rock on Burnites,
Johan
I am gobsmacked …!!!
Going to work …make money…buy prints…
put on our magnetic wall…
drink with you…
tell stories in your greek home…
laughing and farting all night long
VIVA … show me the photos
I ‘ll show you the money
Also, I think for online readers to select the last five entries for the EPF would be an administrative nightmare. I have seen some online competitions let readers select for instance the ‘peoples choice awards’, but their budget and staff were a lot larger than Burn. This sort of proposal may work well when Burn is well established, perhaps five years later, but Burn is still relatively young.
Some competitions have a main juried section and later there is the peoples choice awards, where onliners register their vote. However, the first juried part of the competition normally carries more weight. But, remember this is just for a competition. I think for people to decide the finalists substantial grant would be chaotic to say the least.
My suggestion is that if Burn grows to a very strong position, it could be FEASIBLE/FUN to somehow have an online registry for your favorite essay in the EPF finals. This doesn’t decide the finalists for the grant money, more a secondary consolation prize. So, depending on Burn’s financial position, perhaps there could be a consolation prize in the ‘Burn Peoples Awards’. Perhaps instead of a monetary award, maybe even a poetential sponsor like Canon/Nikon could throw a camera into the equation, just to spice these separate awards up. As I said, that may need a a few years for that peoples awards to be possible though.
I am suggesting this, only because I am going to go into withdrawal shock after all the finalists are announced and the winner selected. The peoples choice award could be a secondary promotion to keep the ball rolling. Sort of like a second ‘hit’ of the bottle.
Thanks,
Johan
Hey A civilian mass audience, lets that cherry juice you suggested earlier!
Also, as long as I can spoil the broth with some delicious dollops of Absolut vodka. Yum, cherry and vodka. But my favorite is vodka and red bull.
Here are some fast facts: James Bond’s first drink was scotch on the rocks in ‘Casino Royale’. Then he later had martinis, shaken not stirred. What a traitor…
Real men drink red bull and vodka. I would drink Bond under the table. Then I would steal his leading lady and drive off into the sunset. Dreaming.
Johan
The idea of having an online gallery for BURN has been out there for a while now. Several people have brought the issue up in the last months – also because of on-demand being easier moneywise for some than having to put the money for prints on the table without knowing if they would sell.
I do not remember now all the arguments that went against it … but the idea kept being dismissed. I myself do favor it in connection with the LOFT-gallery – Gordon’s arguments are well put.
It does make a difference if BURN is in charge of printing and distribution or the photographer. And not only because of the question of responsability (damaged goods etc). We should consider that. Even though a lot of photographers do have access to make professional prints in high quality, I would say not all of them do. And … some are not quick in delivering either … as strange as it might appear, I once waited almost 8 months(!) to get a print from someone, which I had to sent back because the paper was torn … So, quality control is an issue, even if I surely had bad luck on my side on this one event and it is not the norm.
I LOVE you JOHAN,
you are a real BURNIAN !!!
VIVA Red Bull AND VODKA on Jaansen!!!
P.S KATIE you better not watching :)you are sharing the suite with Gordon …remember !!!
My Gracie your clickable gallery rocks :)
DavidB keep rolling south babeeeeeeeeee
I am traveling west …
Mr. Jim …Let’s have a party …OIME
I LOVE YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
LASSAL,
you are very focused lately …is it the new blood?
IMANTS,
don’t forget …the first signed copy is mine !!!
HERVE,
walk the walk…after talk the talk…hmmmmm…good point
Do you still have the bike?
I am on the rocks !!!
David,
your gallery and print sales thing sounds so cool. You know down my way they’ve got “The World’s Longest Yard Sale”. It started as a neat little idea and now it’s a destination!
Just a little food for thought. I’ll bring the biscuits and gravy… with a side of grits.
HERE we are again …JOE …for you with love
**** GRITS
Grits is a Native American corn-based food common in the Southern United States, consisting of coarsely ground corn.
Grits is similar to other thick maize-based porridges from around the world such as polenta.It is sometimes called sofkee or sofkey from the Creek word.
Bring it on ! Paul O’Mara !!!
P.S Panos where is the slideshow ? VIVA MARCIN !!!
While I’m not sure a loft gallery in NY associated with Burn is a good idea, I am sure an online gallery is even less of a good idea. Burn is conceptually a good idea. But not, IMHO, an unlimited one. As an online showcase of photography curated by a single famous photographer, and reflecting his singular tastes, it stands out from the hundreds of thousands of other sites featuring photography. David’s direct involvement with every image or essay that appears on the Burn home page is essential, even if that involvement involves only selection.
The format here works, as well. I think it actually worked better with intense debate about the images and issues surrounding the images directly under them, but since it’s hard online without moderation to prevent such debates from devolving into personal attacks, the one post concept seems an unavoidable compromise. You lose the passion, though, that likely attracted a lot of viewers.
But online “galleries” are everywhere and the images more like vapor than something concrete people might want to buy. I will not buy images I can’t hold in my hand before buying them. In fact, in my experience, most people (myself included) prefer books of photos, because they are even easier to hold in the hand, you can own more of them (there is only so much wall space), and many people just don’t have the room to display photos on their walls. And even with print-on-demand, the logistics of actually making this happen with as diverse group of photographers as the Burn participants, would seem to me to almost require Burn to become an agency itself, and I hope David doesn’t really want to go there.
As for the physical space in NY, as someone as already mentioned, it’s a limited venue with limited access for all of us. Sure, we are not the point. It’s access to buyers in NY with money. I get that. But what can be marketed there seems very limited to me. And will be expensive in time and money to make a success of it.
I know David is a no bounds kind of guy. Dream it, make it happen. But I hate to see all this energy and money and talent diverted from Burn magazine itself. The magazine is the unique concept. And it is still in a conceptual period and needs a lot of cultivating. At the very least it seems premature to venture out in different directions.
I’m a bit selfish here. I don’t want to see DAH devoting himself significantly to creating a publishing and gallery empire. It’s his photography that interests me. I want to see more books by DAH, more of his work. And all of this seems a great diversion from that. Yes, I understand, David, that you are looking at the future. But I’m not ready to let go of DAH the photographer, yet.
Anyway, enough of this ramble. All this other stuff just seems peripheral to fleshing out the Burn concept and making it fly financially and conceptually.
Two eggs over easy, grits, hash browns and toast! My favorite breakfast.
There was also a newspaper popular in our rural south (and other rural areas) called “Grit.” Sold it door to door when I was a kid. Very popular in 50’s and 60’s when I was a kid. .10 cents and issue! :)
David:
my line wasnt in reference to you, epf, grants etc, was in reference to the idea that segregated ideas of what is great and not is an absurdity. that was in reference to an early comment, i believe by jim powers, that the audience’s sophistication level couldnt warrant consideration to choose talented work. i agree whole heartedly in what Mike was trying to suggest and that has NO RELATIONSHIP to EPF or grants. and yes I CARE ABOUT GRANTS (i dont know how many times i have to say that, i dont know why every time i write something now you believe it’s about EPF,) and NO i dont care about awards (status)…
grants are necessary and fundamental parts of the way that artists earn income to continue their work, support their family, finish projects. every artist i know, at one time or another, applies for them, and they’re an important part of the profession. Awards, the way i talk about is, is when pictures/projects are determined to merit more value than others (NOT ABOUT EPF), ie: WPP, POYI, Venice Art Prize, Palm d’or, etc…those i think are silly….i’ve never entered one contest. now, do people i love and respect: of course: my wife does and has won awards…..it’s just for me, another way, and a reasonable one, to draw attention to work, one in which i’ve never felt comfortable. However, my comment, after the NYTimes slideshow had to do with a response to the idea that the audience for photography is much more attuned and much keener than many people imagine: credit where credit is due, as well as to state that the silly way people imagine work to be this over that makes no sense TO ME…..make sense?….
david, all the time we’ve known each other, i really feel that in the last 2 weeks every time i write something it gets perceived as somehow a diss against you or the EPF and frankly, im tired of it. that’s it from me about this….im sorry to see this turn as it has
bob
GORDON..GRACIE..KATHY…LASSAL..JOHAN…MARCIN
yes, the idea of an online gallery has been around for awhile and certainly could be implemented relatively easily as per Gordon’s suggestion….perhaps the only rub is in making sure everyone who is distributing online has a real sense of print quality and archival value of their work…the other problem with online is that you cannot sell the really fine prints, the upper end prints, online….no serious collector will buy online…collectors are buying prints, not pictures….so it is a middle market for sure, maybe even the best for overall sales, but it is not the high end print market….
the kibbutz was only one of several outlets i had in mind in any case….but, it can still be the permanent space for event and appointment based sales…Mike Courvoisier who prints for me now and used to print for McCurry has a real sense of all of this….if i were one of you , i would make arrangements to print with Mike rather than risk shipping prints …the 12 color pigment ink printer is already set up in the kibbutz and if you send Mike a quality file, then it could go right from printer to up on the wall …he of course would send you a duplicate print for your approval, for corrections etc…
how we hang a show or display the prints seems to be our toughest problem…framing is always a huge issue and expense….i do not have a solution for this one yet….we are exploring all kinds of ways to hang prints…our initial thought is to eliminate any kind of frame…..collectors buy prints unframed anyway….still we must have a fine display…..
to answer Marcin’s question, the photographs would not have to have been published on Burn…
cheers, david
Jim,
I agree there are a whole host of issues involved with the online gallery, including the question of do people really want to buy fine art prints online. There are a whole raft of hosting companies trying to get photographers to make their fortune selling prints online, I think the only people making the money are the hosting companies selling photographers their dream of building an online sales empire.
I am sure there are a few well established nature/landscape photographers who have a small trickle of orders. It would be interesting to hear if anyone has any stories of wildly successfull online sales. In theory it sounds great, print on demand etc, etc. I have dabbled with it and the amount of marketing involved is huge.
The association and curatorship of David Alan Harvey I am sure will add kudos to the print collection, but again as you say it is a very different thing to buy a David Alan Harvey print and one by one in the Kibbutze collection.
A Photographic library I am associated with, sells prints online, both signed editions and also unsigned unlimited editions for a far cheaper cost. Sales are not substantial.
Rafal…
I’ve had this discussion numerous times, so please ignore the tone of my post since it’s not directed towards you but towards your argument itself…
Every photograph (for me) has two basic and distinct elements.
Content and craftsmanship.
The first has to do with the ideas, the intentions and basically the personality of the photographer. What captures his attention, and how he chooses to approach it.
The second part is the same as in all arts and crafts. In order to be able to communicate what “you see” you need to have at least some elementary understanding of how your chosen means of expression works.
To that extent, to reduce a comment about the control of tone values, contrast or any other technical aspect of our craft as irrelevant, is to say that a writer who has a brilliant idea for a short story doesn’t really need to know or use proper grammar, spelling etc…
Content (at least for me) comes first, and I can overlook craftsmanship to some extent if I felt that the work “speaks” to me. But to flat out say that technique doesn’t matter, I find it offensive to say the least.
David,
The association of photographers in London, has a gallery space for which they have a whole set of frames that they rent if needed, this does mean prints have to be of the same size.
They also rent the space out for meetings, for those photographers who live out of town.
I recently was involved in supplying/printing a whole load of prints from different photographers. The digital files were all supposed to be of a standard format, when it came to printing, some had to be rescanned etc etc, getting the consistancy of file from each photog was the issue.
So, there will be some button to upload a proposal of photo for the print?
DAH…
I once saw an exhibition of vintage stereoscopic pictures of Cyprus. The prints where quite small and they were put on some sort of frames on a rolling mechanism inside a see-through box and to view them you had to use a crank and rotate them around… a similar thing is used by poster sellers… an idea for your consideration…
JIM…
i find myself AGREEING with EVERYTHING you just said….even the word “empire” scares the hell out of me…i have no intention of identifying with that word in any way shape or form…a small boutique that sells fine products, or a really well run country store are my models…not a publishing empire…yuk!!!
and starting in july , after Look3 and the Magnum meeting in London , this boy grabs his camera and disappears for awhile….so far , everything here has been organic for me and i will leave it if it is not….
if we do a gallery and/or online sales, i will have someone else run it….even if Burn is able to survive financially and we can become a media channel, i will never never stop my own work….i have been a photographer my whole life…i have no intention of doing anything other than my own work except for my teaching…Burn is merely an extension of this teaching part of my energy…
right now, i am getting ready to load a roll of 220 Tri-x into my Mamiya …heading for the Avalon fishing pier which is right out of the 50’s…yup, you can shoot pool and watch the waves roll in underneath or get breakfast and see the same…for breakfast i will now have lightly seared sea trout and grits…..besides the ocean, it is the grits that brought me down here….
cheers, david
and let me add this final thought so it is CLEAR to you and to everyone else.
i support, defend, stand behind and cherish 100% your the David Alan Harvey/Magnum Foundation EPF Grant. I do not know what more i have to do to say and prove this. Unlike many newcomers here, I was with you at the beginning when all this took shape. I was there, with support and ideas and work, when the EPF was only the Road Trip assignment. Noone has been more supportive and celebratant of this work than I have. In fact, I encourage every photographer that I know who would be interested or qualified to enter this year’s EPF. In fact, i suspect that one of the photographers who I encouraged to apply and who was reluctant at first may in fact be one of the finalists. Every finalist that has been presented has received not only my warm and sincere congratulations but my words describing the power and beauty of their work. No other grant means more to me personally than the David Alan Harvey EPF, not just because i was a finalist last year but because there grant was so personal and includes my personal relationship to you. The only thing that I have done this year was to comment to you, privately and publically, was that I did not like the way the finalists were named one at a time, which creates this intense horse-race behavior, including people know who write “this person deserves the money” or “this person’s work is stronger”, it creates that kind of Award/star mentality which is absurd. It’s become now like a contest rather than the celebration of the work and it gets worse as the days pass. Yes, it is so tedious at this point: you are correct. But my desire and my purpose here is to support the artists, the photographers whose work was chosen and to celebrate those whose work wasn’t choosen.
When you called me ‘condescending’ in my 2nd commend under Alejandro, Marina told me to walk away and not get involved anymore, not at least until after Look3. It was clear to her as it is to me now that you are under alot of stress and pressure and maybe it wasnt valued the criticism about the process. Maybe i should have just not said anything at all. The irony is that for some commentators, like Jim, you have gone out of your way to support them even though time after time after time they’d made snide, condescending, flippant, impolite and childishly dismissive comments about Burn, editors, photographers, etc. and yet, you countenance that. And I a personal friend, who knows you privately and publically and yet nearly all of my commetns in the last two weeks get interpreted as either a condemnation of you or the EPF or the finalists or something. you said i have an ‘ego’….that’s true, but one thing that i dont have is big enough ego to contribute at the expense of being seen as either narcisstic or a turn coat. It’s probably best if we wait to talk until after the look3.
Until that time, i wish all the finalists and everybody involved all the best. I can not be more happy and proud of what David and all the entrants and finalists have achieved.
all the best.
bob
BOB…
wow!!! i think you are thinking something that i am not thinking about what you are thinking..huh??
anyway, i will go back an re-read the posts at some point and try to figure this one out, but right now i am going to get on my bike and go take a picture….
i do not think anyone who knows me or is part of my life would describe my current circumstances as stressful….quite the contrary…..i do know this….the way i speak in person, and you know this, is always with a bit of a teasing twist….i think it does not always come out this way in print….i must learn to write as i speak….
on one little specific, i still do not see the difference in publishing the finalists one at a time and/or all at once…why is that a horse race?? the ones who are finalists know who they are, the others know where they stand…. we would be publishing two essays per week anyway…..this gives each essay some time on its own….anyway, i respect your opinion..perhaps i disagree with it, but so what?? why the drama??? all of us here either agree or disagree all the time….this is a forum…
by the way, and consider this carefully…i could not even discuss this whole play of the EPF with you now could i??? before the deadline closed, you were given my first editorial assignment as Editor at Large…to help discover and deliver new talent…at the same time , you had entered the EPF yourself……so, how could i discuss this with you???
in any case, i will just quickly say that no writer here has been more vociferous than you in a very positive way…..i am totally confident in having you be exactly what i envisioned you would be….both as a talent scout and as a solid columnist……i assume your long term loyalty and contribution….i hope you assume the same from me…
phone call later today???
cheers, david
BOB BLACK ,
I LOVE you more than ever !!! I am so proud of you …
and after the phone call with DAH can I skype you ???
Marina , Dima you are blessed !!!
No need to reply !
I am going west …next internet cafe !
HUG TIME
Totally off topic but… I had a few hours to spare today so decided to have a proper look at a couple of iconic agency websites, NOOR and VII.
Is it just me, or does anybody else think that the work by the NOOR photographers is more intense? Practically every NOOR essay stopped me in my tracks, whereas I thought many of the recent VII essays were pretty lightweight. The NOOR work just seemed so more creative, stronger and intense. As David often says, it had real authorship about it.
I looked at Jan Grarup’s Patti Smith essay in comparison with similar subjects on VII and it was like night and day. I know this is only a personal opinion, and there was strong work on VII, but NOOR’s work is amazing!!
Davin;
I’m pleased to see that you’ve fended the wolf from the door for another month. I’ve been fortunate to have had a really good month, but next month looks decidedly dodgy!!
I had a major sponsorship proposal fall flat on Friday. There were a couple of things about the criteria that made me feel uneasy, so I was sort of expecting it. I was also told by a mag that three articles I was counting on for next month had been held back a month (due to revenue issues…)
Anyway to cut a long story short, it put me in a bit of a grump, but I had to go and shoot an under 18 year old gig later that night. Had a great night, didn’t shoot anything super special, but just enjoyed the company of a bunch of young kids having a ball to a thrash metal band. I did make some good contacts for future portraits to add to my project, that I’ll probably begin shooting in the next week or so.
I am being continuously amazed at how open these kids are to an old codger like me. And how a bunch of genuine young kids can make a grumpy old codger feel much better. The restorative powers of youth I suppose.
Cheers
Did everyone hear about the missing Air France flight? You really can’t sweat the small things in life:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/02/world/europe/02plane.html?ref=global-home
Good to know that Salgado is still going strong. . .
Another way to raise money for projects besides applying for grants is to do limited edition print runs:
“Eventually, to raise money for printing, he plans to issue a limited edition of 20 platinum photographs, a first for Mr. Salgado, who is known for rather democratically printing as many pictures as there are orders”.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/31/arts/design/31fink.html?scp=1&sq=sebastia%20salgado&st=cse
Ross,
I agree with you. But I think the difference are good and important. The noor agency seems to be more free with their visual language, more “art” than VII. VII going to be more and more “classic” or rather “legendary”.
But also noor is closer to “photography for photography” and VII is more “photography for news”
anyway, both are signposts for the rest… for me for sure…
welll…. I wish to meet Salgado someday… he is still on the top of my list “the bests”…
David… And you are one the top of my list of favorites photographers all the time of course. Last time I thought myself that you are stright after HCB only on color. If someone will ask me who is after HCB I will point at you.
I am glad you still work with your mamiya or leicas or whatever.
ehhh… I miss my mamiya…
David:
A question totally unrelated to the EPF Grant. . .
I’m wondering how you and other prolific shooters handle all the thousands of images you have shot over the decades? What I mean is, for all your NatGeo articles, a tight selection of slides were ultimately scanned, but what about all the outtakes? I find that I can spend days scanning all the second and third tier images from a shoot thinking that if I never do, lots of interesting pictures will never see the light of day. Sometimes there will be the one clear winning shot but then also three or four other slightly different versions that you want to scan as well. Do you just not scan these? I can’t imagine the sort of image archive that you must have after 35+ years of prodigious shooting. With digital things are much different of course and it is easier to work on images in bulk, but with film and scanning it all can get so tedious! You may think that I just need to edit better, but what I am saying is that I often find so many interesting images that aren’t necessarily the best, but that I want to know I have in my image archive.
Jim
I agree that Burn works well the way it is, but it clearly can not sustain itself indefinitely without an income stream. You like books better than prints? No problem. On demand publishing makes that easier than selling you a print.
Advirtising is the other option. Most web sites that make money do so through advirtising. I would not object little advirtising buttons. Subscriptions are another idea, though not one that would likely fly.
It’s a cruel world. You need money to make things happen.
I also agree with you Jim that the one comment rule has taken much of the passion out of Burn. I thought I like the one comment rule, but now find it frustrating. I miss the dialogue and discussion about the work. True that it got out of hand sometimes. Perhaps just a request that comments be related to the work and that if some folks want to get into little wars, please take it outside so you wont bore the rest of us.
Like you, I am not sure about the viability of keeping a New York space, will likely never visit it, but like the idea that it is there. Kinda gives a bit of concrete reality to the whole Burn thing.
As far as an online gallery taking up Davids time, responsibility for the day to day running and nuts and bolts would not have to be his. With an income stream, a paid office manager would be possible, which is probably necessary in any case if Burn is to continue. I’m sure David is acutely aware that he can not put this kind of energy out indefinetely.
DAVIN…
this is a good question….the simple answer is that it is a never ending and daunting task….i have two full storage facilities full of un-scanned work….my initial edit has an A, B and C selection…..but there are boxes and boxes of outtakes that are just that…outtakes in boxes….i do have interns who i often give the assignment of going in and “finding something”, but mostly i just go by my initial edit…i usually do scan the B and C edits…but, i am so far behind in this process that i cannot imagine it ever being done…as i am sure you know, it is very hard to find the impetus to go back and dig into the outtakes….every once in awhile i do and sure enough there is very occasionally a nugget in there…transparencies are definitely the most difficult of mediums to keep organized…the minute you open up a box of slides, you disorganize it by taking anything out…this is not a problem with negative film or with digital…
only a very infinitesimal part of my work will ever be seen, including the A edits….however, much of the work is “sketching” and should not be seen ….and i am not so interested in quantity anyway….i have absolutely no problem in thinking that my lifetime body of work will probably come down to 500 pictures or less…..with maybe really only 100 best of best…and for collectors down to about 50….
cheers, david
wow …
“and for collectors down to about 50 ….”
which would be less than one pictures a year …
… picture …
… PHOTOGRAPH …
still here still..
on the road.
dx
Bob!!!! You almost sounded like you came from Venus (and David, from Mars!)…….”You just don’t understand!!!……. Oh, and Jim, David, you seem to talk a lot about him lately. Did you see him last night? How comme then I called all night, and you did not answer…. David, are you listening?!?!? ”
:-)))))
PS: It’s all cool, Bob.
(police sirens screeching, sounding closer and closer)….Some guys broke the one-comment rule on the EPF. One named David Alan Harvey, the other Mimi Mollica.
CALL THE FIRING SQUAD!!!… OR AT THE VERY LEAST, A PUBLIC FLOGGING!
I tasted a grit once. It’s things like that that make me glad the North won the Civil War. No more grits; knishes for everyone!
GORDON…
there is no solution to “comment management” …it seems to me the one comment rule works about as well as anything i have seen…most of the “passion” you describe was one person attacking another personally it seems….go back and look…or better yet, if you have time, go read the comments under an essay and edit out all the personal snipes and you will have what we now have which is one comment per person….anyway, i am and always have been for whatever works…let’s at least finish out the finalists with the one comment rule and see how we all feel then…
i am not pro straight up advertising on Burn…sponsorship better in my view….however, i am sure you know or can imagine that advertisers would not want comments at all….even serious sponsors will be very gun shy of instant open comments under the stories they are sponsoring…try to imagine a serious sponsor who has laid out thousands of dollars to put Nachtwey and Jen Ackermann on assignment for BURN and then have to read what they might view as embarrassing irrelevant blasts from an open comment forum….again, it is not about a point of view, it is about the quality of that review…..
i think the instant uncensored post is a luxury which does not exist on any other magazine that i know of…yes, everybody has a blog, but i am talking about live instantly posted comments under the featured stories…as far as i can see, no online photo driven magazine has live commenting under the stories nor do they publish more than a few stories per month….you may be able to tell me of one of which i am not aware…
mostly we do pretty well here overall with the comment system we have….and the interactive nature of Burn is certainly part of its popularity for some…
cheers, david
David
Just a couple of thoughts about display and print sales.
First, prints for display need to be framed and lit. A framed print has a much higher percieved value than a loose print tacked to a wall (then it’s just a poster”} Lighting is crucial. I’m sure I’m telling you stuff you already know.
By all means sell the prints un-framed, and make an arrangement with a local framer for those who want framed prints (and get a commission)
Offer posters with the Burn logo on the bottom and a wide virtual mat. That same inket machine you have there will print on cheaper media.
Make all the display frames the same size, or have only two or three sizes at most. Then they can be re-used for the next show. Variations in print sizes and formats can be adjusted with mats. I buy frames directly from a manufacturer in Vancouver who imports containers full of moldings from China. You can buy great looking frames in quantity for very little money if you know where to look. A simple black frame always looks elegant and is neutral enough for most works. Aluminum can be OK I guess though I’m not a fan.
As far as the “upper end market” goes. I’m always suspicious of collectors. I find the whole scene sucky and repulsive. You are right that they collect “prints” rather than “pictures”. Oh I’m sure lots of collectors really like the work, but the whole buy, sell, hold, mentality seems to suggest that it is all about dollar value over artistic value. Sorta like collecting baseball cards or any other antiques.
I was reading a magazine article the other day about digital printing. A former gallery manager for Ansel Adams recouted a story in which he and Adams were looking at a poster of his “moonrise” photo, and comparing it with a print. He asked Adams which he thought was a better print. Without hesitation Ansel replied “the poster of course” and went on to describe how much better the image on the poster was because of all the control he had digitally when working with the offset printer. Needless to say, the print today will fetch an astronomical price, and the poster a few bucks.
Almost twenty years ago I found a signed 11×14 print of Karshs portrait of Winston Churchill at a second had shop for 14 bucks. Sothebys in New York sold it for me for $1200 way back then, I don’t know what it would fetch now. It was a terrible, muddy print. It looks much better in reproduction.
So, the middle market? Absolutely. I’m all for putting prints onto the wall of people who actually love photography.
David….
let’s talk after Look3…yes, i too dont want any drama, least about over epf or burn..and maybe (yes,) im still upset about the ‘condescending’ comment..and i expected differently…but, well, maybe i’ve overreacted, but it felt as if when i offered an opinion in the last 2 work was critical it seemed to be interpreted as something bad about you, finalists or the EPF…my comment about the nytims had no relationship to epf, though i realized i choose my words poorly………as for entering epf, you know what that was about (dima) as i’ve told you privately…and once the editor-at-large thing came about, i fully felt i had no relationship to the epf, but maybe i should have been more vocal about this to you on the phone, who knows…anyway, after the editor stuff, I work my butt off to to encourage others to submit, work and essays for epf…ok, none of this matters…it’s water under the bridge…and, well…ok…im tired and i will refrain from comments until later…it’s best that way, ….
well we will talk look3…
i too am really tired…i accept the blame for that…
all the best.
AKAKY…
down here where i am , nobody thinks the north won…..and furthermore, i can get a good bowl of grits in New York…..and listen to some pretty decent music too…Harlem..
HERVE…
oh Herve, please do not feel left out…did i miss something you said??? i try to answer all of your questions, but maybe i do miss some…..you know well i USUALLY disagree with Jim….and say so….i agreed this morning well simply because i agreed!!! and conversely i usually agree with Bob, but disagreed on a couple of very small points this morning…’why can’t we just all get along?”, or not get along, as the subject dictates?? heaven forbid should we all agree or all disagree all the time..that would not be real or realistic….diplomacy is a good thing…and so is honesty…..
now that you are the “police” here on Burn , i confess to the crime of posting twice under the featured story…i honestly forgot where i was (happens a lot)..i thought i was here…safe…..able to speak my mind..but, alas i was in the hallowed ground of the “one comment rule”…busted by my own parameters….sorry….
now, tell me what i missed of yours..please pretty please..
cheers, david
… only 50… I can’t think about it… :)
I couldn’t choose.
And I only scan A and B choice… But I’m lucky I have films.
I’ve heard something about a party in London :)))
I can’t go to Look 3 (next year)
Enjoy yourself and .. report!!!
Sorry, didn’t really mean “sucky and repulsive”, I’m sure there are serious collectors out there who just like the work and are very sincere.
Nothing david, I am not sure what you would have missed, you responded kindly to that post I made last night.
Actually, yes, something concrete I asked. When would the cottage gathering take place, in the unlikely chance these could fit with my new working days.
In general, though, we all are a very hyper-sensitive bunch here. And it’s OK, we must be who we are, but also, let go of these emotional stress/negativity it entails. Best is within a minute of feeling it, one day is good enough too (not everyone has the inner discipline of a Dalai Lama), and deal with it without annoying others with our bruised egos. Prints are for exhibits, not ego! ;-)
. It’s the Buddhist thing to do, for those who claim they “are” buddhist. Laugh it all off, and dance around it, it will be over too soon….
BOB…
you have done a great job as a talent finder….i thought you would and i told you that you did…
i never thought you said anything bad about me or the EPF…to the contrary , you explained way more than i did about the process…i cannot find any line of mine where i said you were critical and even if you were, that would not be a personal problem for me…
however, i did take your comment as “condescending” way back under Alejandro, but aren’t we just working the edges of semantics just too too much?? you did not mean that comment to be condescending and you have explained that several times…i also said “cool, no problem”, i took it wrong, i take you at your word…that happens here…we are all reading fast, writing fast, and we have all said the semantically wrong thing at one time or another….
no matter what gets said here i do not think any of us should take a comment about photographs as some kind of personal affront….me being critical of your word use should have nothing to do with you thinking that i am thinking something negative about you as a person….
simply put Bob, i just do not see a “blame” anyone about anything…..least of all you….
now, my suggestion is , let’s move on….you are cool, akaky is cool,kathy is cool, jim is cool (today only), herve is well, herve ..anyway , you get the idea…
peace, david
“my lifetime body of work will probably come down to 500 pictures or less…..with maybe really only 100 best of best…and for collectors down to about 50….”
David
Mostly I agree with you, but now… well I think quite oposite… I dont care about collectors… I don’t care about ‘best of the best’… and I don’t talk about my work only about yours. For me photography is not what we are able to produce to astonish an audience… but what we saw, what was happen before ours eyes and what we are able to keep on flat images.
For me you have a thousands of great photos for sure (even if I have not seen them).
maybe you will not agree with me, but I prefer think about my images that way. My pictures are firstly memory card. And I will try fill them a thousands great or not pictures (memories).
peace (for great masters)
David:
Thanks very much for that answer!
So you would suggest that I quit obsessing and get back out and shoot, right?! :))) I remember reading that Koudelka always says he is 4-5 years behind with his darkroom work!
MARCIN…
my man, i love you…you speak better English than do i…..
my first love for photography is exactly the same as for you….MEMORY…yes, the simple act of recording something you care about and want to simply remember…yes, yes we totally agree on that…
and the project of my life , the work i will be known for, is the work upcoming..Off For a Family Drive which is ONLY about memory….from 50 years ago til 50 minutes ago…i may show some of this work soon…
i do however see my work as being a fairly small body of work…and i cannot help but have a sense of history because my roots of development came from learning by books from the masters….i sensed their place, i saw there was such a place….for my two sons and the rest of my family i will have nothing to leave behind but my work….my investments in the material world are few….so, for my work to have value i have to take it seriously….for my family, not for me….as a gift for them….so, the endorsement of collectors is important from that standpoint, but takes nothing in my mind away from the the simple pleasures of photography as simply memory as you so eloquently described….
i want nothing more than what i have and am prepared to live with a whole lot less…
hey Marcin, i am really lucky…laughing, but because of this blog i could have not one penny and just travel around the world sleeping on everybody’s floor who is here on the forum!!! i could get at least one night out of many of you..laughing hysterically…..remember when i lost my New York apartment?? omg, everyone here offered me a bed..it was really something i must say…think back on that….
anyway, and i know you know this, but my whole effort with this online gig is to try to make it so that some in the next generation will be able to feel as good as do i about their life and their work…..this is no small mission on my part…..and totally worth it….;
cheers david
David and Marcin are right, both of them. There is life, and there is legacy (a father to his son, a lover to his beloved, an artist to the world, etc…).
No contradiction, Marcin, and you just made the point before, by saying David is right after HCB, who is the perfect example of a man whose essential legacy amounts to a couple hundred, maybe less, shots, a whole language already in itself!, and a life in images as well, yet was extremely private, if not retentive in saying what it at all meant for him in/for his life, in its wholeness.
DAH
You didn’t forget about me did you…..
yes David,
You are Lucky man… I always told you that… not only becasue you are great photographer my friend…
and now the beach house…
ehhhh…
You know I wait for your new books…
and you know how patience I am…
:)
let’s force of HCB be with you…
Herve… I really mean that… For me David’s works is transfer of HCB’s but in color… only better…
BTW… I hope it not looks like asskissing… brrrr….
:)
PETE…
i have tried to forget about you, but alas how can i??? you come at me from every conceivable angle!!! may i please run a couple of errands and go have lunch first??? then yes, i will write your forward….
tick, tick, tick…..tock
cheers, peace, david
TO ALL,
Duke Ellington – It don’t mean a thing (1943)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qDQpZT3GhDg&feature=related
LOVE YOU ALL
Please LAUGH , LAUGH …life is F&^^$#ing Short !!!
David:
One other question. . . I have been perusing the Maine Workshops site, the Tuscany Workshops site and The ICP site and I haven’t been able to find a week long all inclusive masterclass in the style of the Joop Swart Masterclass at World Press Photo. I am not just looking for help with personal vision or street shooting or a portfolio review, but a masterclass where I can get help with the conceptualizing and editing of my Romanian rural life project into a book dummy and also get tips on photo business practices, bounce ideas around and learn how to better write project/grant proposals. I have been editing from around 1000 roles of film and I need help! I can’t edit objectively anymore! I feel I have reached a real impasse with my work and in order to bring the project to completion and fruition and then to move on with my photography I benefit from an action packed week with others in a similar situation.
Any ideas of who teaches such a workshop?!
Yeah I am like a bad penny…. Remember though, you did say I needed to pester you.
I owe you dinner at least.
I’ve got the gallery/print sales website, ready to go, for Burn. I built it for photojournalists, to present and sell their own work (mine, at the time), as a way for us to raise funds while in the field.
The info site is here: http://info.mimetic.com/ and there are links to some websites using the system.
I’d be happy to offer Burn a free installation of the software. Let me know.
I hope it not looks like asskissing
————————————
Marcin, I am sure nobody wants to kiss David’s ass, no matter how PSYCOPHANTASTIC they are! Maybe his shiny skull, then, and layer gold leaf after gold leaf, you know, like…
…BudDAH worshipping:
http://www.pbase.com/uc/image/113248098/original
;-)
Not to talk over you guys, but I want to get this in the buzz can…
In response to Jim’s comment of 4:49 yesterday, and maybe this will have some relevance to the print sales discussion.
The NYT blog is indeed targeted towards those “into” photography, a fair, if foolishly concrete deduction. What you’re conveniently ignoring is that the NYT is a global corporate media outlet and is trying (desperately) to put up the biggest tent they can. Newspapers like the NYT like a large readership, right?
And they do that by appealing to the general reader. Compare a journal like October which is written for the specialist. (Even Aperture is available at Barnes and Noble.)
So it makes sense for the NYT to use the resources to create this photography blog. Why? By its very existence, it implies a large, general audience that is not only informed but capable, to my surprise (and to that of the editors, it seems), of a very high level of work.
Maybe we have a different idea of what a general reader is… here’s mine.
General literacy has been extended, over the last 30 or 40 years, to include reading images as well as words. Photography programs were new in colleges in the 70’s… but there’s graphic design, criticism and theory, film studies, media studies, not to mention art and art history as some examples of fields that depend on this “new” visual literacy. This is simply an integral part of the breadth of a humanities education.
How many of these students have graduated in the last four decades? Where are they now? What do you think? How many children have they had, and why do they persist in taking them to the Met to annoy me as I am trying to think, really think, about a Sarah Charlesworth piece?
The “moms and dads,” are now middle managers at media outlets, like the NYT or HBO or Sports Illustrated… maybe some advertising company… or maybe they are managers at some new media design firm, or architects or tech writers or vice presidents at a bank or an insurance company or a big multinational food conglomerate or work for big pharma.
I know. You’re itching to call them the “elite.” But not really. They are the run-of-the-mill, fairly-well-educated, middle-to-upper-middle class, informed, literate, upwardly mobile, urban, driven, American worker that I see all around me. They are my friends, acquaintances, neighbors and coworkers. They are R. Florida’s “Creative Class.” Knowledge workers. They are running up the property values in my neighborhood… but at least they all know who Andreas Gursky is.
I’m guessing this is the approximate audience of the NYT blog, and the authors of those Polaroids. Yeah, they’re into photography. Not only are they expected to know Walker Evans, but to recognize him by sight, in a fuzzy photograph… Duh. They all skimmed “Let Us Now Praise Famous Men” in high school during that unfortunate denim work-shirt and Greek fisherman’s cap phase…
I do not understand how a sophisticated “amateur” audience devalues the “professional” photographer. Visual literacy is not a zero-sum game… there is just less distance now between the “professional” and the ever-rising baseline… which should be seen as an extremely fortunate thing, rather than a threat. I think it is a big, big mistake, Jim… and everyone… to be dismissive of this fact, or ignore it.
In fact, I’d say these are exactly the people you’d want to cultivate as an audience and a potential pool of collectors.
Reference to AKAKY ‘s “Knish”***** for you Joe
***A knish is a German, Eastern European, and Yiddish snack food made popular in North America by Jewish immigrants, eaten widely by Jewish and non-Jewish peoples alike. A knish consists of a filling covered with dough that is either baked, grilled, or fried. The filling is made entirely of mashed potato, ground meat, sauerkraut, onions, kasha (buckwheat groats) or cheese. More modern varieties of fillings feature sweet potatoes, black beans, fruit, broccoli, tofu or spinach…
Knishes may be round, rectangular or square… hmmmmm
DAVIN
possibly http://www.mvswanson.com/ if you can afford her..
Sorry Mike …I didn’t mean…
VIVA PHOTOGRAFIA!!!
RE: Framing (Burn Gallery)
David raised the issue of framing in an earlier post. So just wanted to throw an idea out there. The framing needs to look great but still be cheap and uniform. My suggestion is to use two thick(ish) pieces of Perspex to sandwich the work (leaving decent space around the print for presentation), which are then screwed together in each corner tight enough to hold each print. Maybe two different sizes can be cut overall (large and small) to deal with different print sizes.
To hang the “frames”
A. Wires can be dropped from a bar or fixing running high along the whole wall offering hooks to fit into small pre-drilled holes in the top of the perspex or…
B. (I prefer this) run a long beam across each wall (maybe 3-4″ deep) with a thin grove cut for the Perspex to sit in paint it white and it would be pretty unobtrusive (kind of like a little shelf). You can then line up the perspex fames next to each other along the wall. The groove should hold them in place
The Perspex makes sense as it would be the cheapest option I can see bar pinning stuff directly to the wall—doing this damages the prints and they can warp and stretch under their own weight. Bad!
Work can be easily switched in and out of the Perspex so they can be used again and again.
With two uniform sizes it shouldn’t be too expensive to get a bunch cut as it will be done in bulk (say 30 large, 20 small). Just drill four holes in each corner and get a presentation nut and bolt set to fix them together.
Frames can then be hung off the wires or placed on the “shelf.” I prefer the latter idea as the work could swing around if wires are only attached to the top of the frames.
Just brainstorming… but this could be done for a few hundred bucks or less and still look pretty sweet. Anyways, I going to do it at my place, i’m sick of spending money on frames, matts, matt cutting etc, etc…
David Alan
Your comments about Erics essay are well taken. Avedons American West is one of my favourite books, (a gift from my wife). He is probably my biggest hero.
Yes Erics series are all close-up portraits, but I’m afraid I’m seeing more of Eric in the portraits than his subjects. I feel I am being beaten over the head with technique in an attempt to manipulate how I should respond.
Avedon lets his subjects speak for themselves by deliberatly keeping his approach straightforward allowing the humanity of his subjects to surface so extraordinarily.
So considering the access he has, and the hard work and dedication he clearly shows, my feeling is that Erics project could be so much more.
Cheers
Gordon L.
Welcome back MR.JAMES
Dear Mr.mike,
RECONSIDER,
Duh. They all skimmed “Let Us Now Praise Famous Men” in high school during that unfortunate denim work-shirt and Greek fisherman’s cap phase…
OUZO on me and Knish on AKAKY
“Knishes may be round, rectangular or square… hmmmmm”
Yet, not triangular. Interesting :>))
Hmmmmm?…. Do Americans call it Plexiglas?…
YEAP… Mark :>>)))
HAPPY 1st only 4 days left to CELEBRATE :
World Environment Day 2009 and Mr.HARVEY’S birthday
Can I start singing from today ???
Hmmmmmmmmmm…?? Do they ? you never know with them ?
**** is a thermoplastic and transparent plastic. Chemically, it is the synthetic polymer of methyl methacrylate. It is sold by the trade names Policril, Plexiglas, Gavrieli, Vitroflex, Limacryl, R-Cast, Per-Clax, Perspex, Plazcryl, Acrylex, Acrylite, Acrylplast, Altuglas, Polycast, Oroglass, Optix and Lucite and is commonly called acrylic glass, simply acrylic, perspex or plexiglas
YES !!!
ACMA,
Ooops. Sorry about the hat crack.
Heheh! Thanks for clearing that up Civ!
Avedon lets his subjects speak for themselves by deliberatly keeping his approach straightforward allowing the humanity of his subjects to surface so extraordinarily
————————————————————
To be precise, Gordon, I think Avedon, like every great portraitist, is letting (propping is a better word) his subjects tell what he wants them to “speak”. So that the subject may feel violated, seeing themselves after, even betrayed, even though they agreed to be photographed.
This has been a constant in his portrait work.
The genius is that what he wants them to “speak” is as true, if not truer (essential that is), that what they thought they were merely there to say, or in the case of the American West, to show.
Eric’s work is in a totally different vein. little context indeed, but that we can assume about any young boxer around the world, “get out of one’s living hell”. In Avedon,’s West, his subjects are literally wearing their context almost as if dressed with it for stageshow, all which comes out even more potently for being against a white background.
AC-MA(Civ) aka Akma, I had a fried pork chop (meat and 3) in Franklin, GA today. When I say fried I mean DEEP-friiied. Akma it’s a southern thang.
….left my home in Georgia….
La la la..
Sitting on the dock on the bay…
..watching my life going away..
( it rhymes with:)
… eating fried pork chops e-ve-ry day..
sorry y’all.. Just got in and I’m hungry…
Good afternoon from the cloudy City Of Angels..
…live from LA..2:15pm Monday …
Two hours and 5 minutes from our
4:20 happy hour…
Btw,
No I’m not in vacation..
Neither the Late Night Wrap up show it’s cancelled..
We will resume soonest..
Ok y’all.. Go shoot now.. Plus it’s all digital..
U got no excuse now.. Shoot, shoot.. It’s dirt cheap now..:)
PAUL,
Note: a former Franklin, Georgia is now West Point, Georgia.
Franklin is a city in Heard County, Georgia, United States… The median age was 40 years. For every 100 females there were 77.9 males.
I am moving there !!!
PANOS ,
you can shoot and write poems !!!
I told you so…you will succeed :)
JAMES,
I am fan
and MIKE …your …ooops is accepted :))
I AM HAPPY TONIGHT !!!
OUZO AND pork chops for everyone. VIVA
P.S KATIE, OUR STREET FIGHTER I am WAITINGGGGG…love
My GRACIE , BURN muse…Panos is trying to cut and past …YOU
DAVIDB we are watching you …easy …
But you CIVILIAN r doing great work..
Hosting both the morning and the night SHOW
here in Burn..:))))
So I have nothing to worry about..
You created a lovefest that I hated in
the beginning but you are a catalyt..
You really worked as an anger managment
expert… and your lovefest experiment succeeded..
Everybodys calm… Even me…:)
Herve
“The genius is that what he wants them to “speak” is as true, if not truer (essential that is), that what they thought they were merely there to say, or in the case of the American West, to show.”
You’ve got me laughing out loud with this great sentence Herve. Once I wound my way through it, I definitely agree with you.
And don’t get me wrong, I like Erics photos. I just feel they are a bit heavy handed technique wise and perhaps not focused enough intent wise. I think there is great potential there.
Cheers
FOCUS PANOS FOCUS,
You do it yourselves !!!
I am proud of YOU …ALL of YOU !!!
I take your Energy and you take mine!!! a circle of life
I see higher self-esteems, civilized debates, amazing photos…
I am receiving a good vibe when YOU are out there and shooting…
YOU have more RESPECT
you ENGAGE
VIVA TO ALL of you OUT there … we count on you
P.S Can I start singing…HAPPY BIRTHDAY ?
Mike, this collection of Polaroids is not art, not even good photography. Just a collection of fuzzy, faded snapshots for the most part, perhaps with some pretentious effort at “art” thrown in by those who wouldn’t be recognized anywhere else. To celebrate it as “art” is to devalue photography in the broadest sense. And devalues it for the everyone. “Look at me, I can send in a fuzzy, badly composed, faded Polaroid and no less than the NYT celebrates it as significant.”
It’s like putting children’s stick figures drawings on display in a gallery when real artists can’t even get their foot in the door.
Erica:
Thanks but I actually had a session with Swanson back in 2004. . . I need a real masterclass or I guess maybe I should move to New York so I can be around a huge photo community. . . or maybe I should apply to Yale for their MFA program.
Mike, Jim
Mike: Love your post (2:29pm).
Jim:
Warhol, Ansel Adams, Brett Weston, AAron Siskind, Helmut Newton, Duane Michaels, Sarah Moon, Robert Mapplethorpe, Mary Ellen Mark, David Hockney, Philippe Halsman, Ralph Gibson, Robert Frank, Elliott Erwitt, Peter Beard, Chuck Close, Paul Caponigro, Harry Callahan, William Albert Allard,
What do these eminent individuals have in common besides photography? They all contributed polas (or their estates did it on their behalf) for inclusion in Taschen´s ¨The Polaroid Book. So, what are you saying , Jim? That the common man could not possibly have captured life in such a unique, artistic and original manner with their trusty polaroid camera that it might warrant preservation and a place of honor in some book/exhibit/permanent collection? That the NY Times is wasting its time searching out these pearls of a by-gone technology to conserve for the future?
Do you forget who the original practitioners were of photography, Jim? Do you think they were Pj´s, Nat Geo Guys? No. They were educated professionals who could afford the equipment, who had an interest in new technology and were turned on by the chance to visually capture their world. They were doctors, scientists, businessmen and the early version of the jet-set who wanted a serious hobby. They were the ones who provided a market for the equipment and furthered the technology by contributing their own innovations. Oh my, come to think of it, they are the same people who would no doubt be among the readership of the NY Times Blog if it had been around back then. Geez, just imagine if Szarkowski had given the heave-ho to an old-timer by the name of Jacques-Henri Lartigue when he popped off a boat and showed up at his door with an albumn of pasted in faded old ¨snap shots¨. Or just imagine if Berenice Abbott had not decided to buy Eugene Atgét´s entire collection before he passed away?
Jim, really you are such a nudge. You make me laugh right out loud sometimes. haha, today is one of those days. Thanks!!
Long live polas!
kat-
AKMA, I wish you could have seen those hundred women. Think twice. http://www.franklingeorgia.com/MostWanted.html This will answer all. Next stop Chattooga Co. It’s BBQ I’m hankerin’ . Don’t make fun or I’ll be openin’ an extra big can of whoop-ass.
Jim,
how can yu make a definitive statement like something isnt art? According to WHO? You? I think a lot of those polaroids are art, they are good, they are good art. Its a question of taste and its obvious what your tastes are, but realize they are YOUR tastes only, and dont really count more than other people’s tastes. Stop making definitive statements like that.
Hey Kat I couldn’t agree with you more; but please don’t forget the contemporary photographer, Antoine A’Agata with his polaroid series in Gaza. I love that painterly feel that permeates his work.
Yeah Kat, long live polaroids!
Johan
Rafal, I can make a definitive statement because I have a considered opinion about art and photography. I’ve looked at a lot of photography over the years from many genres. I’ve shot a lot of photos over the years from many genres. I have an opinion derived my those experiences. Why should I not say what I think? If I think photos are crap, I say they are crap. Why pretend I think otherwise?
It may not be your opinion, but that doesn’t invalidate it.
How about Joe McNally’s life-size fire fighter shots. That’s a proud statement and worthy of any of great documentary portraiture.
Marcin;
You far more eloquently described what I was trying to say in regard to NOOR and VII. I actually didn’t mean to sound as harsh as I did regarding VII!
Their work on serious issues was strong, but it seemed to me that the work on lighter issues wasn’t taken as seriously. Compare VII’s Metallica essay in comparison to the Patti Smith work, or the Amy Poehler piece. They both seemed to have been “dumbed down”. That maybe a bit harsh, again maybe “not taken as seriously” would be more apt.
To me it seemed that nearly every NOOR essay smacked me between the eyes with its intensity and creativity. But I do agree, both are necessary and pivotal agencies.
Cheers
Kathleen, celebrate these Polaroid images at Lens if you like. I don’t like them. What else can I say? In the end it won’t matter. They’ll be buried by a few billion other images in a few weeks, anyway.
Powers and Rockwell now there’s a famous duo
Jim,
Not to pile on after Kathleen’s post, which raises some good points…
Stick figures in a gallery…. something like this Basquiat at MoMA?
http://tinyurl.com/mjzsyk
I was going to use a Paul McCarthy drawing as an example but I don’t want to give you a case of the vapors or anything. Whatever you do, don’t go to the MoMA site and search for a drawing entitled “Penis Hat.”
The point is, stick figures entered the canon a long time ago (maybe 16,000 years ago? at least 25…), and western civilization survived, and even prospered because more voices are heard. Our lives are enriched by the diversity of our artists.
How are JP Basquiat and Paul McCarthy keeping another artist from getting their foot in the door? Makes no sense. It’s exactly the opposite, their “stick figures” forge a new path for younger artists.
And, these drawings don’t prevent highly skilled mimetic draftsmanship from prospering either… Walton Ford comes to mind. You might like his work… I know I do.
Who gets to define “art”? I’d argue it’s culture, you argue it’s Jim.
Of course everyone is entitled to their opinions, but that’s a different thing entirely.
And, you know, I am open to the (very remote, haha) possibility that I may be wrong… but I don’t see logically how these photographs devalue “Photography.” If you could really spell out your argument, maybe give an example or two, I’d love to read your thoughts on this.
Mike, I get to define what art I like.
“but I don’t see logically how these photographs devalue “Photography.”
Well, Mike, I see a bunch of bad Polaroid’s on Lens, rather than, say, an EPF finalist. That kinda devalues photography.
Huh?
Mike, you and Kathleen are trying to tell me what I should think is art. I disagree with your judgments.
Oh… okay, so you concede that the photos can be (are) art, they are just art that you, personally, don’t care for?
I still don’t get what your diving at with the devaluing idea. Sorry.
We just disagree. I think the Polaroids are crap and you think they are art. How do you adjudicate one way or the other?
Yes, we disagree. But not about the difference between definitions and opinions, right?
Also, still not sure about the whole devaluing thing. Really curious as to how you arrived at that idea…
This is fun but I’m being called to the table…
Mike, if I can pick up my Polaroid test prints off the floor after they have been stepped on and put them in a gallery (it’s happened), while a serious photography can work years on a project and not get be able to get their foot in the door of the same gallery, that devalues photography.
If I can get my old, fuzzy, faded Polaroid published on the NYT’s Lens by just sending it in, when a serious photographer likely couldn’t get them to even look at his stuff, that devalues Photography.
define art?!?
WTF?!?!
Jim, I would have to draw attention to what you wrote – “that they will be buried by a few billion other images in a few weeks, anyway”. I find this statement although in some part true, nevertheless quite depressing. I am curious why anyone who believed in this sentiment would even bother taking photographs anymore. In the end all that is left are the photographs and not everyone who is into photography are out to win grants or work in the profession. Some people like myself just enjoy it as a hobby while learning the aesthetics of the art through participating in forums such as these.
Your sentence is almost like saying that it is pointless for writers to continue writing, because it will inevitably be lost under the weight of preceeding work. That is the great paradox of Jim, someone who continues actively doing something, even though reconciled to the futility of it all. Why engage in photography AND participate on this forum all? Is it the chance of a salary at the newspaper, as well as some much needed attention here?
Well, I for one haven’t reached that level of despondency, natural given my age. You should be offering hope to younger photographers and writers. Not tainting them with doubt about their commitment to their art. This forum is about promoting talent, NOT stopping it dead in its tracks. I realise that you look at the practical nature of things, but it would be nice to occasionally offer some words of hope for the younger crowd. It is great to have a realist on board here. However, a lot of what you write seems to run contrary to what DAH is promoting here. I wonder how many budding photographers/writers have been turned away from reading your overly realistic view of the world. What a shame…
Try to balance your dialogue and learn to become a practical educator instead of a persistant doubter.
Thanks in advance,
Johan
Johan, the possibility that Burn holds is that it doesn’t cater to the tsunami of images that flood the web every day. It’s the unique vision of a single famous (and I mean that positively) photographer. That’ what redeems Burn magazine in my eyes. It’s why I participate on this site. I have no idea whether it can succeed as that – because eventually David won’t be making all the choices as he moves on. But it is an interesting experiment.
But nobody in this industry has any illusion anymore, or shouldn’t if they are paying the least bit of attention, that the tsunami of images unleashed by the digital revolution is burying even the best and most successful of photographers equally with the rest of us. It’s a fact of life. It’s the reality.
If a “budding” photographer can be turned away by my ramblings, they weren’t very committed in the first place.
Jim
Christ, digi ain´t the first tsunami to hit photography, Jim. The first time, ohmygod, it was that shocking innovation brought of the first hand held camera. It was said that was the END of photography, to wit:
¨Photography as a fad is well-nigh on its last legs [its demise in this case was predicted as a result of the arrival on the scene of the bicycle]…..
It was, undoubtedly due to the hand camera that photography became so generally popular a few years ago. Every Tom, Dick and Harry could, without trouble, learn how to get something or other on a sensitive plate, and this is what the public wanted-no work and lots of fun. Thanks to the efforts of these persons hand camera and bad work became synonymous. The climax was reached when an enterprising firm flooded the market with a very ingenious hand camera and the announcement ¨You press the button, we do the rest¨. That was the beginning of the ¨Photographer-by-the-yard¨era and the ranks of enthusiastic Button Pressers were enlarged to enormous dimensions. The hand camera ruled supreme.¨
¨It is amusing to watch the majority of hand camera workers shooting off a ton of plates helter-skelter, taking their chances as to the ultimate result.Once in awhile these people make a hit, and it is due to this cause that many pictures produced by means of the hand camera have been considered flukes. At the same time it is interesting to note with whaqt regularity certain menseem to be the favorites of chance–so that it would lead us to conclude that, perhaps, chance is not everything after all.¨
Alfred Stieglitz,1897.
Jim, um, go ahead, insert 35mm, SLR, Polaroid, Digi-cam and cell phone and Iphone alternately wherever it says hand camera. In fact, i am quite willing to bet that your own interest in photography occurred during the infamous tsunami of the 70´s.
kat_
correction: ¨brought about by the first hand held camera¨
JOHAN…JIM
you both speak your mind and you both speak some words of truth….yet, you both come to different conclusions based on what you both “see” out there today….i see the plethora of images that Jim sees, yet i also see the more optimistic side of things as Johan….
there is indeed a “tsunami of images” that without a discerning eye one could get lost….but, the same could be said of language…words….the written language is so old that literacy rates are high overall compared to visual literacy rates…photography just has not been around that long….but, there is no reason to think that this tsunami would drown out fine work…any more than anyone speaking the English language would be considered a poet….poets, reporters, novelists use the very same words we all use, yet in a special way recognized by most….astute, talented, intelligent photographers will break out in the same way….in any arena, no matter the quantity of practitioners, a few will rise to the top…it is human nature to select a top…..human nature does not allow for a sea of mediocrity to exist in any part of our lives….there is always an upper level of everything…either scientific or artistic….that is the nature of man….
every new generation must re-invent the whole scene…..learn from the classics….become a classic….the tsunami of pictures is like every other disruption on the planet…it will be over…..it will blow out…the sea of pictures will grow, but fast become irrelevant…even amateur photographers are going to be looking for higher levels…as an amateur tennis player i only play other amateurs, but we all look to Nadal even though we will never be on his level….
with “everyone” able to take a credible picture all the more reason to think that “someone” will do it better….
cheers, david
David Allen Harvey
oh yeah, now that´s you writing at your best..i love it when you nail a subject right to the wall!
best
kat-
The image as we know it may also loose it relevance, like most things just a short snippet in the passage of time. We shouldn’t lament if the photographic image no longer holds such a esteem level in our lives and is replaced by other forms of communication.
I reckon I won’t be around when images taking up three dimensional space and transcending one into the forth dimension are common place. It would be great stuff to experience and learn from
……..beats looking at a mirror
Imants,
You are clearly a visionary.
I asked you last night if you are familiar with the work of David Wojnarowicz. I am quite sure you will leave me floating in the air with my question unanswered once again but i had to ask nonetheless.
Thanks, if you do answer..i enjoy reading your posts and viewing your work. I think you are really quite an interesting artist.
Best
kat-
KATHLEEN…
FYI , Imants is scheduled for an essay to be published soonest…
David
WELL! I sure am glad to hear that!!! NEXT, where´s MIMI? Mimiiiiiiiiiiiiiii…hey MIMI, you gotta get on the essay wagon here..hope you and DAH get along really well at the Magnum Luau over there in London town..i wanna see you HERE!
————————————————————————–
Imants..I can´t wait to see your work here..i know it´ll be GREAT!
————————————————————————–
¨……..beats looking at a mirror¨
you said it!
————————————————————————————————
ok..fading into an unusually gorgeous Costa Rican night..CIVILIAN, i am taking to the wing and fluttering low over your little garden, a night bird seeking her key..to roost, to rest, to cease the quest, blabla…ok..ok..yer right, a poet i am not, but neither a photographer, just a night bird with a word to leave her friends..
Civilian, Gracie..
goodnight my loves
Yes i have though I didn’t have a lot of contact with his work, preferring the bizzare guys in Japan and Korea during the height of the fluxus movement of the 60’s . They collaborated with the likes of Maciunas, artist such as Yoko Ono, Nam June Paik come from that era.
Moorman\Cage v 544 Beuys, ^&* Brecht, J+_)( Ray Johnson @# Alison Knowles,∂ƒ© Moorman
Imants:
well, mmm…yes, i can see your previous statement about the end of photography as we know it coming straight out of fluxus..by the way..those fluxus boxes must be worth a fortune today! There are some people here in Costa Rica doing boxes like that. They receive work from artists all over the world and make up these small boxes with stickers and toys and all kinds of unexpected things in them. I have two and they´re great. I´d love to have my own fluxus box!
anyway, thanks so much for answering..
goodnight, Imants :)
kat_
the end of photography as we know it.. ….. technology and need will create the change, a bit of greed will help speed things up
I urge people to look at the wider edit on Tatiana’s website. These days photography is not just about who has the best compositions. It is about who has the best concepts, ideas. I think Tatiana’s essay must be viewed from a more nuanced perspective than they way one views a traditional, straight forward photojournalistic essay. I really feel there is more than meets the eye here with her work. And, it is a work in progress.
Also, check out Tatiana’s ‘Monoco’ series. That is Tatiana herself.
Lumping all those countries under one banner smacks of a tourist run………….. what those countries have experienced since and during are quite diverse.
Davin, the wider edit on her website is a good reference point for sure, but in my opinion comments should based on her final edit/essay. Because, this is what she chose as her finished product.
I think that it is applaudable to move away from a traditional straightforward photojournalistic essay style, but a new style should also be supported by emotion and content. I also don’t see any nuances in her work, and I found that her subjects all shared similar expressions. It was if they were posed as lifeless mannequins. There didn’t seem to be any special moments caught on the run, some fleeting glance that sucked me into their world. I didn’t feel like I knew anything more about the places or subjects than when I first started the essay. Like I said in my comments under the essay, I think that it is wrong to paint so many former eastern block countries with the same ‘color’.
I believe that certain stereotypes were carried into this project and it is a shame that they were resolved as they were. Certainly an opportunity missed.
Thanks,
Johan
Johan,
I totally agree with you. It is for me maybe the biggest miss from the finalists so far precisely because it lumps a very complex and varied region into one cliche portrayal. Theres no variety, no depth. Atleast other essays offered more depth and dimensions. Not so here.
MIKE
MMMMWWWWWAAAAAAHHHHHHAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
“They all skimmed “Let Us Now Praise Famous Men” in high school during that unfortunate denim work-shirt and Greek fisherman’s cap phase…”
I laughed ’til I cried!
My older brother, whose kids are now 15 and 17 ABSOLUTELY fits that description, I remember I used to really worship him for being groovy (as you do with much older brothers) And I have an old photo of him in his early twenties where he used to look like a lapsed member of the Ananda Marga Sect!
That comment is so astutely observed its absolute genius!
Cheers
David, it’s the economic consequences of that tsunami that ultimately reduces photography to mediocrity. Most folks are, after all, quite happy now with the $9.95 Portrait Package from Kmart. It’s “good enough.” Which isn’t a good thing if you want to be a portrait photographer with your own studio.
Missing Link: A self-portrait…. (fill in your country)… there are lots of books, films, tv docos, short stories, photo documentaries here in Australia. We have a large slice of our population coming from other countries in the last 50 odd years and it is almost a right of passage to go back to one’s mother/ grandmother’s country for migrant kids, Europe,Eastern Bloc, Asia and the Middle East having the greater numbers.
For those migrating there was a great series called “Tales From a Suitcase”
The plague of post modern photography, endless indecipherable introspection.
had a nice chat with DAH yesterday and solved the online communication snaffu…
anyway, as far as Russia, and personal identity, just wait until you see Marina’s essay Versts (russian and english world)…about which she’s been working on for 2 years and deals with this question: what is it your relationship to place and identity and what makes up these questions….I am totally biased ;)), but I think Marina’s treatment is world’s richer and deeper and more invested than the last essay….then again, Marina has been struggling with this question of identity for 10 years and it isnt just a MFA project….that’s always the risk, how to really understand or know depth from appearance, particularly in photography and particularly with subject matter that appears alien…….i do not know if M will comment (she’s away for 10 days), but pictures well composed do not equate to an exploration of an idea, let alone a nation, or a question of identity as complex as the issue of self, let alone russia….marina’s work, only a fraction of which will be published here, also includes a film…her idea is the same…
anyway, one thing we must keep our selves on is the target of our own work, that’s the key….and that’s why I am so happy Imants will be published her…it’s why i wanted him on board and wanted his work showed…though im sure it’ll ruffle feathers too ;)))…
ok, off for a few days….
running
bob
I urge people to look at the wider edit on Tatiana’s website.
Davin, i couldn’t agree with you more about placing importance of having a visual motive and assembling visual information to constellate a real audience objective.
So i just spent the last 30 minutes over on Tatiana’s website purely as a result of your urging, and i wish i could say i’m glad i followed your advice. actually now i wish i would have given up after only 10 minutes. I can’t believe how amateurish the rest of the work is based on your interest level.
You bring up Monaco, maybe it’s because you are thinking of the how wonderfully Christopher Anderson was harsh-flashing the political election candidates? Well there’s no comparison, if you like those Monaco images i can find a milllion more like them by playing flickr roulette or better yet, hanging out in the west-end with my compact camera flash, and no, it’s not about the media, but it is about the ‘concept’ and the execution, these are neither, but maybe i’m missing something?
Davin, can you elaborate more on why we should consider more highly Tatiana’s work from her Website?
KATHLEEN…
it does not make any difference whether Mimi and i “get along well” in London regarding the publication of work….i think Mimi’s work warrants publication, so we do not have to get along …. it is always a pleasant surprise and a bonus if you enjoy an artists company, but is not the key to whether or not you publish….i think i have mentioned before that most of the photographers published on Burn are photographers i have never met nor do i have any clue whether i would like them as individuals….
i know it is hard for most people to make this break in thinking because it defies every kind of judgment that takes place in most cultures most of the time….i know many times i really have to let the concept sink in even with students who think that because i am very friendly with them, that equates with me liking their work….i can really like someone, even be friends with someone and not be a fan of the work and of course vice versa….
JOHAN..RAFAL…DAVIN…JOE
i think there will be some jurors who will rank Tatiana right at the top , and others who will take her right to the bottom…i do not see any middle ground judgment of her work…..
she certainly represents very well the “Yale school” of a flat, detached, emotionless artistic representation….it is most certainly a reaction against “the moment” and powerful emotional response generally regarded as being reader captivating photojournalism….the Yale school, headed by Gregory Crewdson, generally tries to objectify situations where one might imagine emotion and then just wipes it out…photographer involvement in an obvious way is shunned….i am sure Tatiana is also quite influenced by Tayrn Simon and/or Jeff Wall who are also quite out on the edge of detachment as a force of art….
Rafal, isn’t that where you were going with your park series???? you were certainly making a very strong case for detachment just a few months ago…..change your mind??
cheers, david
David, why should we care about Tatiana’s fantasy?
“An invented self-portrait, a fictional autobiography, unfolding in a country that no longer exists ….”
This is taking post modern photography to the edge of the cliff and kicking it off. She has gone beyond real introspection to phony introspection, asking us to buy into a conceit that not even she buys into.
I do think that Tatiana’s essay is representative of a certain school of thought no doubt…though i did find it, and the artist’s statement, pretty remote and i think she could benefit from a conversation from ‘real’ struggle with identity and not an imaginary country, to rid her selves of the cliches…it’s a typical foreigner’s approach, particularly to a nation as ‘gigantic’ (visually, emotionally, historically, geographically, ethnically) as ‘Russia’…the great historical irony of Russia and russian identity is that it’s often defined and promulgated by foreigners…in photography, russia is better perceived by western photographers (a grave grave subtraction), writers, historians, politicians than from within…with regard to photography, i’d only wish Tatiana’s had been better versed, visually, in the question of identity and in particular, russian identity…as to her own personal questions, this is something that none of us have the authority to judge, for personal struggle with the mechanics and defintiion of identity is, indeed, a singular and personal thing….im afraid the work is superficial and as David said, will be applauded by some of the judges….but, it does possess a certain ‘distant’ anthropolical visual look that is applauded at the moment…but when it’s looked at by eyes familiar with the subject, it looks keenly like an ‘re-enactment’ of what it means to be russian, no matter how scattered…and i’d ask this: where is the ethnic diversity…especially for a project that deals with the forver soviet ‘countries’?….
oh well ;)))
In fact, this is really the logical conclusion of post modern photography. Once you’ve realized that your own experiences are boring and trivial to others, you simply empty the categories, create a fantasy self, and then explore the world of your fantasy. Which is even more boring and meaningless to others than your own introspection.
foot not, i didnt mean that Russia is better perceived by foreign photographers (not at all), what i meant by “russia is better perceived by western photographers (a grave grave subtraction)” is that Russia is better KNOWN in the west through their own photographers/writers/politicians/hisotrians, etc…which is a grave substraction, particularly for the photographic tradition of Russian/Soviet/post-soviet photogrpahy which is incredibly creative/fital/imaginative/fertile…including their documentary tradition (see my friend sergie’s maximishin’s work over the last 20 years)…sorry for the confused response…
running
b
DAH, Thanks Loads for the added information, i’m not ‘turned’ but i feel far more informed.
Crewdson and Wall are masters of visual speech, i’ve mentioned before their ability to deliver information ‘insinuated’ as candid, yet when we find out it’s been staged we don’t feel remotely cheated; which is an achievement in itself.
that being said Crewdson’s project budget would dwarf Leibovitz budget for sure ;-)
so i’ll just swallow for now that this is what it looks like when you’re exploring this extremely appealing style, but it’s not yet perfected.
DAH, this could be unfair to ask, but if you had to guess, does Gregory’s funding come more from Grant’s or more from Commercial budgets where the work is supposed to pay for itself with a healthy margin to compensate for the risk that’s undertaken to produce that work?
JIM, I’d invest money that produced another Wall or Crewdson!
BOB…JIM…
this is an interesting discussion and takes us way back to when we were discussing the merits of being a “part of it” as opposed to being an observer…Tatiana’s parents were from Russia, yet she was born in New York…Marina is from Russia, so would naturally have a different vision…we will see her essay here soonest on Burn as well…it will be interesting to read the comments comparing the two…Bob, i honestly think the readers here will not see much difference between these two artists except for the artists statements …let’s wait and see…
it seems to me that asking “why should we care?” could be applied to almost any work and is Jim the question you most often ask…i guess the answer is personal to you..you are not led “to care” about this work…fair enough….when i see this work i feel an eerie sense of loss, emptiness, and discomfort…it would certainly not be how i would react to these same subjects in the same room, but i do respect visions other than my own which often take me to places i do not even want to go…
cheers, david
JOE…
Gregory Crewdson is a full tenured professor at Yale….his prints often command high prices…..my assumption is that those two things finance the majority of his work….
DAH, nice answer! thanks!
The sheer number of ‘artists’ emerging from the multitude of MA/MFA courses now on offer means that the landscape of photography must change. Assisting a photographer and doing an apprenticship pre degree is now almost unseen. Lots of Post grad ‘artists’ out there who want ‘careers’..and have well formed buisness plans[WTF is a buisness plan anyway?] are forging the NEW photgraphy. Is it any good? Totally subjective question and therefore only open to subjective answers.
Jim dont get, I generally hate it, Loads of people swoon all over it. Who’s right? Again no right answer… but no WRONG one either.
David, and others have been around the block a few times and have seen this before. “Yale” is not the first, nor will it be the last ‘school’. Only history will tell whether they truly revolutionise. Until then you just do what you do. You learn, you shoot, you try to stay ‘open’, but you stay true and you stand up for what you believe.
John
I am not against detachment per se David, and yes, my whole project “Marooned” which includes that Park project, Riverside project and several others are shot in a detached way.
But I dont think my issue here is detachment. My issue is more with the single note of the project which is not an accurate representation of the hugely varied region Tatiana decided to show. Slide after slide the mood never wavers, be it a landscape, still life or portrait, and whats more the representation to me is the cliched way Westerners see the 3rd world. Im a westerner, too, btw and so is Tatiana despite both of us having roots in the East. The cliche is that the poor regions are poor, depressed, sad. Which, IN PART, they are but is that all there is to it?
My little Park series cant be compared, the aim is afterall more modest, Im showing a park or the river in a neutral way. If you look at those pictures I dont believe I am at all imposing my bias on the photos. Also a Park is a park. A river is a river. They dont carry any more meaning than that. Its a neutral subject matter from the get go. They are neutral, and I tried to shoot them in a neutral, almost authorless style. I dont want a single photo in my Riverside essay to carry an emotional charge. I remember that was an observation Bob made at Roadtrips, and he was right on.
OTOH, the way Tatiana writes up her essay we do not get any sense of neutrality, or detachment. Its a VERY VERY personal essay from what I read in her write up. And Tatiana is imposing a bias. She is showing us very emotionally charged photographs and the culmination of all those emotionally downbeat photos is an essay that screams despair. This isnt detachment, not the way I see it. Or rather detachment doesnt always follow neutrality or vice versa. For these reasons I cant get behind this essay. I mean the photos themselves are good. I have no issue with Tatiana as a PHOTOGRAPHER, I do take issue with her agenda as it comes across from this essay. Were I to do a write up for my Riverside series on Burn, and if you were to publish it, I would make sure that neutrality came across from both my words and pictures. A single sentence might suffice.
David: :)
yes, it will be very interesting to see the different reaction to both work. It’s also a tough comparison because while both Tatiana and Marina are essentially tackling the same issue, which is ‘what constitutes identity, what constitutes russian identity’…it’s also not necessarily an even comparison, as both of them approach this in very different ways, one being russian who lost her identity and had to create a ‘new’ identity coupled with an historical loss (russia’s tranformation) versus a person who comes from russian heritage, but is not russian and has not personally experienced the collision of historical identity/loss but through her parents. both projects are important and interesting ones and for sure, i think it is unfair to criticize Tatiana’s personal search, as each person must wrestle with this themselves. What i find intriguing is that Tatiana’s approach is, at least visually, an essentially non-russian approach…one that looks very ‘western’ and did not necessarily, for me as a viewer, as a photographer who has also done a large body of work on russia, and as a partner of a russian, inform me at all. I don’t mean to suggest I dont think the work itself isn’t good. I think it is good and very very predictable and superficial, vis-a-vis the question of russian identity, or one’s own identity vis-a-vis perssonal/family heritage.
but, the truth is that most of us are fed a diet of images that have little exploration, rather just the surface exploration: the danger, always of photography, which seduces us so easily with it’s ‘appearance’ of depth….remember the Russian photographer whose work was shown here and was criticized by alot of people for being ‘ordinary.plane’ when in fact it had very specific references and relationships to both photogrpahy and history that people who are not familiar would not necessarily perceive?…that’s the funny thing about photography….
but who knows, right? ;)))))))
it will be lovely to see the reaction once Marina’s work is published…many, for sure, won’t get it, because of both the imagery and some of the techniques she’s using, nor will they recognize some of the places or specific iconography, and many of the pics are not ‘pretty’, dust on negatives, over burned prints, aged film, etc…just as some people dont ‘feel’ or get tatiana’s search….and that is why is so important that each photographer just remain loyal to their vision, as we’ve talked about before…:)))…in the end, it’s about time and legacy…we’ll all be forgotten for sure…but which work worked best to try to dig at these questions…that too is a subjective animal ;)))…
but give me the mess and slipperyness and pain of M’s work any day of the week…that’s the real deal ;)))))))))))))))))
hugs,
we’ll talk next week.
running
b
Bob, i honestly think the readers here will not see much difference between these two artists except for the artists statements …let’s wait and see… …….. I would give them more credit than that
JOHN…
i think what has “happened” actually “happened” with Szarkowski’s MOMA “discovery” of Eggleston…it was a clear and obvious reaction to The Family of Man curated by Steichen….the shock waves of Eggleston, Shore, Soth, Sarfati, Struth, Wall, etc will be felt for some time but will eventually i think swing back towards more emotional moment based work…the problem of course is that the mass media go for the emotional in a certain way and the “schools” are just going to naturally react in the opposite direction of any mass acceptance or commercialization of photography….the advertisers of course tried to make ads that looked something like the editorial material presented in the magazines where they advertised and therefore compounded the reaction…with the death of the picture magazines as a mass appeal function, i will bet that soon enough there will be a “discovery” of something that some will realize existed long ago…isn’t this all the history of art???
cheers, david
IMANTS…
you might be right, i might be wrong…let’s wait and see
DAVID
MMMMMWWWAAAHHHAAA!!!!
A photographer called ‘Struth’? Are you serious?
Gawd Struth!!!!!
MMMMWWWAAAAHHHHAAAA!!!!
Don’t worry the Antipodeans will get this one!
MMMMWWWWAAAAHHHHAAAA!!!!
Thomas Struth I suppose…
Wow, a whole school of ‘anti-moment’ crusaders. I know exactly how they feel sometimes!
But it does seem a little bit like ping-pong when you look at it that way and i can see the cycle taking its second turn in my own thinking, albeit with a deeper cut this round.
DAH, actually, i just got more what you meant when i gave my past sermon on Erwitt, the HCB, then Parr, then Wall, then…. as a maturity path through photography. Just now i figured out you were trying to explain to me it was a circle not a path, a circle with different environmental context for each approach and different substantially in where you join the circle.
Looking at it this way you can see the endless recombination’s verse just tangent-like branches off the same static tree trunk.
RAFAL…
good explanation for your own emotional detachment with Marooned which i would like to publish here…i do think that part of it, and you have stated it twice, comes from you feeling that Tatiana has misrepresented a culture at least from your point of view…that there is more to this subject than meets her particular eye…that you view her work as “large” because it takes in a lot of geography and your work is “modest” because it is in one place…might she not view her work as “modest” even though she takes in a lot of territory?? isn’t her repetitive drumbeat of every picture saying the same thing perhaps representative of her real feelings?? wouldn’t capturing the variety you seek in this essay perhaps require a more traditional journalistic coverage to make us see what is “really there”??? these are just questions for you and not statements, nor answers…
cheers, david
LISA…
if you do not know a photographer called Struth, shame shame…yes,Thomas Struth..better get to your Google button fast….
JOE…
precisely….
THOMAS STRUTH is coming to Greece,
2.6.09
ΤΗΟΜΑS STRUHT- CYCLADIC MUSEUM OF ART
THOMAS STRUTH 16 June – 14 September 2009 Press release
The Museum of Cycladic Art is proud to present the first solo show in Greece, of one of the most celebrated artists of our times working in the medium of photography. Since the late seventies, Thomas Struth has been known for his architectural and urban photographs, portraits, landscapes, and museum interiors. ..exhibition will be held at the Museum of Cycladic Art, Monday 15 June, 12.30.
John GLADDY,
“you stay true and you stand up for what you believe.” …YES!
Paul O MARA,
see you in Chattooga Co. BBQ on me…LOVE u
KATIE,
What not to LOVE …you DA LADY !
P.S CAN i start singing …HAPPY BIRTHDAY or no?
DAVID
Gawd Strewth what a revelation!
Thomas Struth to me does share the vernacular in his photographs, but I don’t believe his work is any LESS emotional than say Seamus Murphy’s work.
Just seems to me that one makes a Tate curator happy because its more, how can I phrase it, ‘elevated’ by theoretical didactic, than the dirt under the fingernails approach of a common photojournalist.
But then its really about the photograph as celebrated document, a talisman that somehow enables the beholder a place beyond…
Gawd Strewth, that sounds just like I must have done a degree in visual arts!
Hehehehehehehehe!!!
CIVI
Damn I love you!
Posted at the same time!
LISA
why we don’t laugh HISTORICALLY …
Come on everyone…LAUGH …laugh like there is NO TOMORROW
Lisa what about cold beer on YOU tonight ?
LOVE YOU BURNIANA
Can I sing NOW or no?
had a nice chat with DAH yesterday and solved the online communication snaffu…
———————————–
Thanks for the update, Bob, our life had been suspended, and our breath on hold since yesterday. Please, David, no more eloping with jim, please, please, please, For BURN sakes! :-)))))
Back to work, it feels almost like fist day at school, feeling nervous, virginal, well…. Joking but still….. running, reading you all tonight. Try to be stupid too, and wrong, not just clever and right, mais oui, mais oui….
HERVE…
hmmmm, yes…agreed….by the way, haven’t you been away from work for months??? shouldn’t you be teaching a workshop on how to take 6 month vacations every year??? sign me up…
LISA…
ahh, ok….????? time for us to get a cold one…..
Civi,
“The Museum of Cycladic Art” is an absolutely wonderful museum with only one major issue … it’s not located in the Cyclades! ;-)) Ah well, the gardens are close, and Syntagma … Wishing I could attend … do I still have a key waiting? Send me to Karpathos, or Athos with an edict and an extension …
Civi, that was me up there, thought I was signed out …
TOM…DAH…ANTON,
you are all dear to me…well:
LONG memory you are doing fine
Short memory… we have a problem …
I have said it before that your key is not awaiting moderation. YOUR KEY IS READY.
You are so right…Cycladic Museum in the center of the city…Syntagma,strikes, closed rodes
Hmmm…
I will see you soon…ALL OF YOU in your Greek home.
I walk the walk and the talk …laughing louder!
P.S CAN I start singing NOW or no ?
David A.H.
¨NEXT, where´s MIMI? Mimiiiiiiiiiiiiiii…hey MIMI, you gotta get on the essay wagon here..hope you and DAH get along really well at the Magnum Luau over there in London town..i wanna see you HERE! ¨
David, i didn´t mean to imply that the publishing of essays is contingent on being friends with you. I know that my exuberant post implies that but in my head there were two things going on…1)I would love to see Mimi published on Burn and, 2)I sincerely hope for a new friendship between you both to form over at the Magnum show. One doesn´t hinge on the other, i am just optimistic for both.
best-
kat
Cycladic blue trim?
DAH
Hey – I’ve been off the grid lately – is a Burn meeting taking place soon in NYC?? has there been a date proposed… I definitely am eagerly awaiting this so I can start helping out – might be going to Gallup, NM for some work in July, but would like to coordinate to be here for when New york Burnians meet!
Holla ;-)
lisa,
we love you too… MWHAHAHAHAHAH!!!
popping popcorn at 11 am as if i dont have 2 trillion things to do…
but reading BURN reading all of you is so much better than days of our lives…
or jerry springer… or
I really don’t get all this criticism of Tatiana. Everyone seems to be viewing her work through the lens of documentary reportage work. Tatiana is enrolled in the MFA program at Yale and even before she was working already in the vein espoused by the program. I have a friend who did the Yale MFA and I went down and sat in on one of the weekly critiques and got to see where the school is coming from. It considers photography in a more varied approach than I think many who commented here on Burn do. My friend who did the program has helped widen my view of the medium and forced me to reconsider certain entrenched beliefs of mine.
Inaccessible photography is still inaccessible, even if it comes out of Yale. Another art fad.
A general question:
I’m looking for books about photo essays that can provide me with some insight on how other people work:
From their methodology to tips and tricks they use, stuff that I could assimilate in my own process.
From the mental process of deciding the subject of a project, to research, to breaking the ice and starting the production part of it—accumulating pictures and information—, to the editing process, to how to present the final outcome, to how to pitch the project for funding in any stage of its life, to how to pitch the final outcome to a book publisher or a museum curator/committee…
The past couple of years—after reading countless reviews of books around the web, and within the constraints of my almost nonexistent budget—I have managed to collect a small number of books including the following:
“Things as they are”
“Looking in, Robert Frank’s The Americans”
“The Fat Baby”
“Magnum”
“Dream Street”
“England / Scotland, 1960”
“Satellites”
“War is only half the story”
“Avedon at work in the American West”
“Image makers, Image takers”
Thank you all in advance.
Thodoris, HCB’s ‘Scrapbook’ has been an eye opener for me..
Thodoris,
While i don’t shoot in this genre William Albert Allards, “The Photographic Essay”
made an impact on me years ago.
It’s been out of print for some time but usually various copies can be found used at Amazon
Sidney Atkins,
I tried very hard to find your reading LIST …I went way back into the roadtrips …
but I wasn’t focus …I got some birthday days though…
AND since we are are talking about birthdays …my apologies…I couldn’t help it !
Birthday Shenanigans
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKo_i1JNAvU&feature=related
hmmm…
ok, I will sing tomorrow …:)
P.S LOVE MR. TOM YOUNG
and KATIE …forever yours
Thodoris,
If I were you, I’d take a look at Sam Abell’s “The Photographic Life” and “Stay This Moment”.
CIVILIAN,
I don’t want to clutter up ‘BUZZ” by posting that long list again… after all, they are not photography books per se, but rather books related to journeys, travel, quests, “sense of place” and identity related to landscapes (this was a topic discussed at length on ‘Road Trips’)… but if you will send me an email address at: satkins@telcomplus.net then I will send you the list and promise not to share your email address with anyone else.
Cheers,
MR. SIDNEY
THANK YOU !!!
Thodoris
To further Sidneys recommendation, I would also suggest you look at
Sam Abells, “The Life of a Photograph” for some background anecdotes to
some of his more familiar images and themes.
David, on this note I think this is a type of book your personality and image archive would
be perfectly suited to.
In watching a few video clips,on Youtube, of you working I couldn’t help thinking how educational
it would be to see the image progression of how you work a scene and hone in on the one
principal image you know, instinctively, is there.
Davin,
Tatiana has an artist statement that you can drive a truck through, it’s based on fact and fiction, it’s auto-biographical and it’s fantasy, it’s supposed to provide us a view into the soviet life post-something and it’s not supposed to give us anything except an exploration of something, bla bla bla.
i mean what is her work not?, except coherent, interesting, and stand-alone with out the pedigree background of yale propping the value.
Yes, it’s getting crucified by most angles, and it’s only real defense came recently when some one pretty much said the audience isn’t important to your work… “It’s your project” Julie says. Well keep your project to yourself is what i always feel like saying when someone says an audience isn’t important.
the more i think about this work the more it gets my back up, as long as we’re talking about books, i just put down Roswell Angier’s because i wanted to gain some better context on Crewdson. I suggest anyone that has that book turn to page 163 and follow the name references back to the 1950’s before the ‘moment’ catcher’s entered the scene, it does really feel like watching the part of the matrix where you realise we’ve all been here before.
Anyway Davin if you feel strongly about ‘her’, use your strong feeling to prop the actual work, don’t you your strong feelings to shove her pedigree education down our throat.
What about her work has merit to you?
TO MR.SIDNEY ATKINS,
I believe that your taste is ” above medium”, therefore there MUST be a place,time and timing
where you can POST your reading LIST.
Just a suggestion …everywhere !!!!
VIVA OUZO only on me tonight
Joe:
All I was saying is that there is a context within which Tatiana is working and that it is helpful to know that when viewing her work. I like her project because I think her pictures illustrate her project statement perfectly and show her disconnect from the homeland she never knew. It is in a work in progress. Her Monaco series may look to some like a Flickr slideshow, except that there is a concept behind it. Read the project text on her website. A lot of current photography is about having an idea, a concept as opposed to just making engaging, emotional reportage pictures. Yes, Tatiana’s work is not straight photojournalism, but I still appreciate it very much. I am very happy to be challenged in my beliefs. I am someone who gets the most charge out of Josef Koudelka’s work. Even the best color reportage doesn’t fire me in the same way, but I still appreciate other ways of seeing.
So bad photography is o.k. as long as the photographer has a concept? Interesting.
Davin,
As soon as I saw the ‘Monaco’ set of images on Tatianas site, that you pointed out, I
couldn’t help thinking, “I wonder how Paris Hilton would shoot this project?”
It’d be hot
Mark, I was thinking “a female Borat”
Jim:
Well, there is a lot of postmodern photography and art in major museums that does not necessarily grab you immediately like a great classic photojournalistic essay that appeals to the emotions. This work is given meaning in part by its concept and context. I guess this is what I mean by nuance. Tatiana’s work is more layered than a straight-up essay, say, on heroin users that shocks the viewer.
Civi, yes, sing, sing! … Frankosyriani … too old perhaps but I love Syros, and walked from the port to Vamvakaris old taverna on the Catholic hill to drink much Mythos! Sing!
********* DAH *********
sent you an email @ aol
Andrew Parker,
Sorry about the spelling mistake that triggered your tantrum. Speaking of which I stopped ages ago reasoning with people that use the word friggen since it’s a dead give away that they aren’t allowed to stay up past nine, that coupled with an inherent slow uptake makes it a lesson in futility. Any understand this: your effort was supposed to be a critique of the essay, not of other opinions. Night night pumpkin.
Davin,
I whole heart agree with your purpose/concept Before setting out on a project. It’s refreshing and I mentioned that to be the most redeeming aspect of this author. But this essay shows it’s go guarantee of sucess. Do you hand on heart believe the images pull the offered concept off?
By the way. iphones are difficult comment with. Please forgive the typos.
Joe:
I think it is interesting to have a project such as Tatiana’s thrown into the mix. Photojournalism is all well and good and needs to continued to be practiced, but trends within the art photo world as Harvey says have reacted to it and moved on. Tatiana explicitly says that she is seeking funding to continue the project. There is a lot of art that is well received that just doesn’t hit you in the stomach like a good reportage essay. Again, Tatiana’s essay is about and idea as well as about photography and it has to be considered in this context. It’s not just about the photos alone. A lot of great photojournalism stands on its own without text or even captions. Koudelka just puts the year and place down for all his photos. . .
Let me please throw my 2cents in here as to personal projects being personal.
I want to share a moment of awe I had last year at Perpignan when a couple of us were gathered around a table in an hotel lobby watching DAH edit the photographs Audrey did of her parents. Most of you know the photographs … And I think all agree that they are absolutely gordious!
O.k. so when David started laying the pictures onto the table, what we saw was a very personal project – beautiful pictures, yesss – but I caught myself thinking how many people would be interested in it enough, to buy a book or whatever, regardless of how wonderful the pictures were. I did not say it aloud but, yes, I wondered about it.
But then something happened … And I cannot really explain HOW it happened – but a short while into DAH’s edit, our perception changed. Somehow through choosing the “right” images and the “right” order, DAH managed to make the essay seem … universal. It was still about Audrey’s parents, of course, it were still here pictures, but it was also about my parents, somehow … and about other parents. And about love … devotion … the passing on of generations … The whole damn thing!!!
I felt absolutely bewildered by that and … not only I noticed … We talked about that later but nobody really understood how DAH did it.
But I think this exactly is the key: You can be as personal as you want, in my oppinion you even have to be as personal as possible, to go as deep as you can go in whatever waters you choose to dive in. But even by being extremely personal, you should try (IMO) to find a way to include an universal accord. Something that transcends your personal project into an universal project, that speaks to others too.
BTW Audrey shot a lot of additional photographs since that day in Perpignan … So the edit now is a new one. I would have loved to have an “edit-history” of Audrey’s essay about her parents … Just to maybe understand how DAH did it …
Good night to all.
DAVID,
Bummer…I just got an email with dates for a big Magnum weekend here in Santa Fe in July.
The Magnum exhibition Opening plus
Susan Meiselas, Constantine Manos, Paul Fusco…gallery talks, slideshows.
Sounds great except for it’s one of the big weekends of the summer for me shooting-wise.
It’s either do my own shooting or hang out with great photographers and see and hear about their work.
Guess what wins? :))
Too bad, it sounds like fun.
I’ll let you know if I make it to anything.
TO YOUNG TOM,
Frangosyriani – Stelios Vamvakaris
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGFtIAtA2H0&feature=related
Tom Young the Greek
You don’t need the key …you are the owner :)
Mythos is gonna wait
P.S not Syros this time but …I hope you can compromise…
anywhere there is cold Mythos is no compromise … and feta ;-)))
How can I NOT love you :)
P.S VIVA
Davin,
for me it’s not a reportage thing at all. i’m glad ‘concept’ work is in the mix, the first essay is a concept, no? i actually think ‘concept’ work has an advantage for hitting me the hardest, i wish i could show you my ‘read’ statistics on the essay’s i go back and visit the most with a glass of wine, i’m sure they would show you that these two sites get loads of my attention:
Keili Connell
Alessandra Sanguinetti
But just like pretty pictures coupled with an empty story ultimately fails or weak pictures in a strong story ultimately fails, the same holds true for concepts, and i do think the concept is intriguing, but the photographs lets the concept down no matter how compelling the concept is, heck the author’s own understanding of geography seems to let the concept down, except maybe the concept that americans struggle with geography.
i’m willing to just admit i don’t think i’m ever going to like this author as it seems more concept over delivery and since i’ve seen concept ‘and’ delivery i’m a bit wanting when i see only one side of a two sided tent.
thanks for the discussion Davin.
Joe:
Be careful! Wine and the internet don’t always mix so well! Drinking and web surfing/writing on forums/e-mailng can be dangerous!
Cathy..
Go Shoot..:)
… thank you Lassal..:)
Audrey is great.. She is also shooting a lot..
With or without FROUFROU…
big hug!
:)
Joe,I love my iPhone …:)
Its sexy !
Jim…:)
Long time….!!!
Hey.. I know u loved the latest essay..
I know u did.. It’s as straight as hell…
I loved it too for different reasons though..
But anyway yes… This was a great essay…
What bothered u the most ???
The word “soviet” maybe… or what exactly
???
Big hug
It has become increasingly evident after reading DAH’s comments, that in a sense Tatiana’s essay is a victim of a current fad in photography. I initially disliked the essay as I explained under comments because it not only lacked intimacy, but it also portrayed all of the countries that she travelled to as victims of the same misguided stereotype that we in the west are confronted with.
So, after reading DAH’s comments it was interesting to note that she represents this current artistic trend coming from Yale with the photographer playing the role of a detached emotionless observer. To read that was something of a revelation for me as I continue to learn about trends, both past and present, from this forum. However, I think that it is a shame that students who enrol in educational programs such as these, sometimes blindly follow the teachers own philosophy instead of being alert to their own intuition. The ability to listen or sense ones own intution is where real talent evolves and not subscribing to the lecturers own philosophical approach. It must be a boost to the ego for educators/photographers such as Crewdson to view their students photographic essays and see that their own philosophy is blueprinted all over the finished product. It must offer a feeling of empowerment. Crewdson is an educator and photographer in his own right, who has subsequently spawned his own ‘active’ photography fan club.
It could be said after this essay and comments, that in a sense that Yale is moulding or cloning students from a curriculum that places emphasis on style or concept not content. Evidence of this is that Tatiana has photographed each subject with the same facial expression. The real art of the photographer is to illicit a response or gesture from a subject that is inherent to that subject as an individual. When I initially said that the subjects’ expressions bugged me, I now know why. It is because I can see her lecturer all too present in their expressions.
So, it seems now that this essay is a victim of not one but two misguided approaches. The stereotypes of Russia and her former satellites, along with employing the current style that is the ‘in thing’. I’m going out on a limb here, (never spoken out against policy decisions here but there is always a first time) but I can’t help but feel that its inclusion is nothing more than a representation of this current Yale artistic movement. Sort of like keeping all bases covered. I feel her essay is in the final ten due to her biography and the currently popular school of thought that she represents. A sign to the judges that Burn represents whats new and currently popular in contemporary photography. But, in a way I can understand this because if Burn is to secure funding in the future, then it is necessary to be seen as representing the avant-garde of photography.
Thanks,
Johan
It’s not unusual for folks to take years to recover from an MFA. But if they are riding the crest of the wave, they may make a few bucks along the way.
i keep looking and looking Tatiana’s essay… Excellent!!!!!!!!!!!
Impressed!!!!!!!!!!
Congratulations to DAH for making this grant happen. Its wonderful to see all the discussion and interest in photography as well, its contagious.
I think I’ve been around long enough to say that its fairly apparent what photographs can stand on there own– whatever the genre. My point of view is that when photographers settle for the easy picture, the staged picture, the long gaze at the navel, what is lost is the opportunity to capture something much more significant and meaningful. Its not that these pictures are bad, its just that they fall far short of what the photographer could really do. I remember talking to Harvey twenty five years ago, and we were reflecting on staged posed shots….and he very insightfully reflected “ah. there is a lot of things that you can do if you set up shots,” meaning that staging was somehow getting over. Are the shots of the river with all of the lighting interesting? Superficially yes, but they are using gimmicks to avoid doing the really heavy lifting, which is taking the time to really find a moment that is a revelation and has true meaning about the subject. Why bother going to the rain forest to shoot some narcissistic vision of yourself– this is cartoon photography. If it was a movie it would be an animation….
Shooting faded wall-paper is an easy picture, using a wide angle to create a sense of emptiness is an easy picture…..and satisfaction with this kind of photography is all to easy as well. But I think we can aim much higher than that, and that really what I think is getting lost in a lot of this discussion, that if we trust the world enough, and work hard, we can find images that are truly meaningful and original. Why settle for less?
I would love to hear the faculty at Yale chime in one this one! I am sure there would be a reasoned defense in light of Johan and Andy’s comments. I am not taking either side necessarily. In many ways I understand what Johan and Andy are saying as I myself subscribe to the reportage tradition. However, I myself am in the midst of trying to push myself further photographically and revel in seeing work that cuts through from a different angle. Witness how Magnum for instance has taken in Lise Sarfati, Alec Soth, Mark Power and Alessandra Sanguinetti in recent years. I think if one was to participate in a critique at Yale one would see that the lecturers are quite open to many different approaches. The MFA there is about challenging your beliefs, throwing your ideas into question. Of course it does operate within certain current art world parameters as it is a Master of Fine Arts degree as opposed to, say, the ICP Documentary and Photojournalism program. However, Lucas Foglia is currently at Yale with Tatiana and he certainly follows more in the vein of the documentary tradition: http://www.lucasfoglia.com/
Johan these type of institutions are there to protect themselves and their reputation…….. picking a trend is vital for to snare the best students and more so the best money so it can continue to enhance itself.
I am sure most are fine educators and have the students welfare at heart ……………. sure there is a few ego bunnies around, unfortunately they usually hold the positions of power. Photography just like other high profile professions have their groupies who want to please in order to get the jump on others in the market, they are a minority and crash very quickly. Most students end up doing something else with their lives and we all know why.
Sure Tatiana’s essay is a bit suss at the moment but she has enough going for her to do very well within the niche she selects in the photographic industry.
( watch the shadows Tatiana especially in the first image bottom right)
Andy
Thanks for chiming in. Great to hear your perspective.
Andy:
I re-read your comment again and while I wholeheartedly agree that the actual world offers up much more than anything you could ever stage, this kind of photography–the documentary tradition–is only one aspect of the medium. Their are lots of artists out there using photography in many other ways. NYC galleries are full of this kind of work. Crewdson at Yale stages everything in very elaborate ways similar to a film set. His prints sell for quite a bit and he is world reknowned in art circles. I think why Tatiana’s work is causing so much criticism is because it doesn’t quite fit with the kind of work that much of the readership on Burn is accustomed to. Harvey is a Magnum photographer and obviously attracts certain kinds of photographers here on Burn. I will say it again that there are many photographer/artist people who use the photographic medium as part of a concept. For them, the amazing image captured from life is not always paramount. I have seen a lot of art in galleries and museums that I have not immediately understood but somehow the artist is famous. There is sometimes more than meets the eye. The artist is reacting to or working within a specific kind of art historical theory maybe. . . Tatiana beat out close to 1200 other applicants for the EPF. Harvey judged it. I trust Harvey.
“I think why Tatiana’s work is causing so much criticism is because it doesn’t quite fit with the kind of work that much of the readership on Burn is accustomed to”………. That assumption that is groundless most have stated why and none have mentioned that aspect.
“I have seen a lot of art in galleries and museums that I have not immediately understood but somehow the artist is famous. There is sometimes more than meets the eye”…… a cliche at best and please don’t belittle the people
“I trust Harvey.”…blind faith is a very rocky ground it has got the human race in lots of strife
I have nothing particularly intelligent or insightful to post about Tatiana’s essay, so I will refrain from commenting under it. Just for the ‘buzz’ crowd, I like a few of the individual photos… others do nothing for me. As a concept, as an essay, I simply don’t get it. That may be entirely my own shortcoming…?? Quien sabe??
Forgive my levity, but in looking at the essay, I can’t help but be reminded of Oscar Wilde’s last words as he lay dying: “Either that wallpaper goes, or I do.”
Excellent!!!!!!!!!!! Impressed!!!!!!!!!!
—————————-
I agree with you, Panos. Tatiana is very good looking…. ;-)
Herve no… i mean yes.. wait a minute….
ahhhhh nevermind..:)
DAH
shouldn’t you be teaching a workshop on how to take 6 month vacations every year??? sign me up…
————————————-
It’ll cost you David! Free room though.
Vacation?!?!? Just can’t be…You have to work to go on vacation! ;-)))
Imants, with no disrespect, various people have been posting here who don’t seem to have much of an idea of art history. I took many art history classes in college and they turned my previous idea of art on its head. I only made the assumption that Tatiana’s work is different from what some may be accustomed to liking because many people have reacted in a way that others in an art program would not necessarily. It does seem as if many here subscribe to more of the documentary tradition of photography. I could be wrong. I have often seen artwork in a gallery or museum where the text on the wall or reading about the artists gave e a much better understanding of the artwork. I am trusting Harvey blindly. He has been involved with the photo world for 40 years and has looked at a lot of work. I trust that he saw an aspect of Tatiana’s work that has value as I do.
Maybe you need some history lessons on the structure of the old USSR and that it was soviet centric not Russian centric, big difference there
You are a Canadian Davin?
Andy Levin, very interesting input, thank you!
Listen Imants I mean no disrespect to you, Andy, Joe, Jim or anyone else. I respect your opinions very much. I am a documentary photographer myself who considered Yale for an MFA program but ended up deciding to go to The London College of Communication’s Documentary and Photojournalism program which is like ICP in New York. I sat in on a critique and soon realized that the work of the students was quite far from what I was doing myself. However, I do find Tatiana’s idea intriguing:
“Haunted by this incomplete picture, I set out to meet the imaginary country face to face. Armenia, Georgia, Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, Ukraine, Estonia, Russia …. Everywhere I go, I meet dozens of new faces, and in each one of them I recognize women I could have known, men I could have loved, places that could have been familiar. I am chasing a phantom: rather than finding the country my parents had told me about, I am meeting the self/selves I could have been.
An invented self-portrait, a fictional autobiography, unfolding in a country that no longer exists …”
Am I Canadian?! No, why? I am an American of 4th generation Swedish descent based between New York and Bucharest, Romania.
Davin, it’s a bit disappointing to read you today. All your posts seem to say “well, since it’s…. (YALE school, conceptual, Harvey’s choice, etc…)”, in short there is a reason, beforehand, why people should see her work as relevant photography, and also many reasons (Burnians like docus mostly, various know nothing about art history) why people do not favor it.
None having to do with either tatiana’s photography proper or your own convictions, your own guts if you will.
Am I Canadian?! No, why? I am an American of 4th generation Swedish descent ……….. Canadian American same same no different. But you do make a distinction about your race, but are quite happy lumping the Kazakhstans, Ukrainians, Estonians, Russians etc as the same.
Jesus I don’t give a rat’s bum where you went, I did some sky diving lessons, this doesn’t make me a skydiver just because I went to a reputable school of dropping from the sky school. Spare us the I went and I did’s
unfolding in a country that no longer exists …… The Soviet Union was never a country, research before you agree with that statement
Herve, I think I did say that I appreciate work that cuts from a different angle and challenges my assumptions and I do find her proposal idea interesting. But I am not going to go on trying to defend myself or Tatiana and be arguing with everyone. I was just offering my own perceptions on the context from within which Tatiana is working. But I could be wrong. I don’t want to make assumptions about any of the other writers here on Burn, I just was reacting to what has been written in critique of Tatiana from my own understanding of postmodern art and the Yale program. I am no art historian and not much of a photographer at that. So please disregard what I have been saying here on Burn if you could. I’ve been way off track I guess all day.
Thank you Lassal… when I begin a work, I never think if it can be sold, I make it because I need to make it for me… but yes, I try to make universal photos as DAH explained me in Perpignan…
Panos, thank you !!! but I am a little photographer :))))
xo!
Take it easy Davin and don’t take it personally……this is the wonderful world of http://www……….. here is a postcard from tongue in cheek…..
http://etrouko.com.au/art/dd08.jpg
Audrey where and when can we see more of your work?
Your website looks like it’s on some kind of a diet!
There are less images there than there are on Burn!
Apropos of nothing, and in response to no one in particular… I’m thinking about the idea of cognitive dissonance…
In a nut, the theory goes something like this: We feel very uncomfortable when we have to hold two contradictory ideas in our head at the same time. We all walk around with a full set of attitudes, belief systems, values and when we are confronted with something that contradicts them we are driven to reduce the dissonance.
We do this by either changing our internal “cognitions” or by justifying them in sometimes very interesting ways, including “confirmation biases” (oh, google it… my favorite “the polarization effect”), defense mechanisms (google that too, and match them up with your favorite Burnarian, fun!) or by simple denial of the offending evidence or logic.
I’d say challenging work, whether it’s art or photography or literature is meant to induce you to hold an idea in your head that may contradict one you already have up there… Challenging, progressive, novel, complex work fails if it doesn’t cause some level of cognitive dissonance, if it doesn’t create this particular kind of anxiety.
Critical thought, when done well, allows the contradiction but counteracts this whole dissonance, bias, defense mechanism quagmire. Basically, you learn to hold the ideas, to temporarily suspend judgement and you learn to know yourself enough to recognize when your preconceptions are coloring your ideas or your argument. You learn to “accommodate” ideas. I know this is a basic concept, it’s a skill and it takes work and practice, but it is a well travelled alternate route when you are feeling, uh, dissonant.
Oh, one last thing… this anxiety, the frisson of contradictory ideas can be very, very pleasurable once you get used to it… it’s the fun part of the aesthetic experience.
Imants and Herve and everyone else: I am realizing I have absolutely no idea what I am talking about regarding photography. Please accept my apologies for any offense taken. I had believed that context was important but apparently it’s just about the emotional resonance of images. Sometimes I really am amazed at what I think I know and write. I re-read my post Herve and you are right I sound really like a lunatic today. Again, my sincere apologies and I will no longer post here. What the heck do I know about any of this. Really sorry.
Joe, yes, it’s true…. it’s DAH’s editing in Perpignan… I have to update my site, you are right… I have just developed films, I took delay… soon!
Davin, in response to what you wrote earlier about the photography program at Yale; well it stands to reason that there is also the more traditional documentary course as part of its curriculum. The university is no doubt represented by a variety of traditions. However, the issue here is to what extent Tatiana has adopted this current artistic trend and how it has subsequently influenced the development of this essay. Also, Davin I wouldn’t brand Burn readership as accustomed to anything, because right here I have found some of the most well read/informed, eclectic and knowledgeable group of contributors present on a single forum.
Anyway, Tatiana has adopted this current artistic trend to such a degree that it hasn’t left her with lateral vision to see the larger ‘picture’. Travelling to new regions/countries is about leaving yourself open to new experiences/sights. An artist should leave room for the chance encounter, a small discovery around the corner. Perhaps a little gem waiting to found. In this essay it seems that the photographer’s mind was already made up before she departed the sanctity of the tutorial room. As evidenced here, I think this approach leaves the photographer in a zombie like trance where intuition and chance play second key. Intuition is what gives each photographer their distinct style and look.
I felt that the STYLE of the essay was done in such a rigid way that it must have been carefully story boarded, just as cinematographers do before movie shoots. The style and content were already decided in the classroom before she left America, and the rest piece just fell into place. This is to the detriment of the whole project. It is one thing to promote stereotypes of a region, it is another to travel with such a blinkered artistic approach. A borrowed popular style was used here and both the content and emotion were ultimately sacrificied. This is not innovative photography as it lacks the soul of the unguarded moment, that fleeing glance captured that leaves the viewer stunned, wondering how did they manage to capture that.
There was not one stand out photograph here that highlighted either the soul of the subject or the intuition of the photographer. I can’t see the photographer at all in these photographs, I just see a theoretical style that permeates the whole piece. Also, I feel saddeded as I feel no closer to knowing who the subjects are, and the distance between myself and them is far greater. This essay is a no win situation all round, and the only party that is set to benefit is the creators of this artistic trend. Cool.
So, unfortunately the end result is that this essay has succumbed to outdated western stereotypes of that region and the borrowed detached technique that was used to achieve this is self-defeating as it doesn’t leave room to challenge these same generic stereotypes. All in all a vicious circle.
Thanks,
JJ
DAVIN ELLICSON,
WE LOVE YOU !!!
Another True BURNIAN !!!
American and Swedish …Superb !!!
Imants, with no disrespect, various people have been posting here who don’t seem to have much of an idea of art history.
——————
davin, this reminds me of the first time you dropped in to Road Trips and took a swipe at everyone. Just because people dont see it as you, doesnt mean they are ignorant. Please, be more careful with your words, I started liking you and now you go and do this.
Just because she goes to Yale…anyway, not a big fan of Crewdson personally so it makes little impact on me. But were I to like Crewdson I would still rely on my own tastes and perceptions to form judgement about a work, instead of constantly referencing Yale, Crewdson, DAH, Magnum, whatever. Hell, Im not a fan of all Magnum photogs and just because its Magnum doesnt make it automatically good. It has to be good because….because its good. Ofcourse DAH’s judgment carries weight but precisely because of his judgment we should me MORE critical (doesnt mean negatively so, btw) when judging work we see. Im not a fan of blindly following a leader, no matter how much I respect him.
IMANTS,
Skydiving ? I am in awe …
DAVIDB,
We need update…WHERE ARE YOU ??? LOVE
AUDREY,
Congratulations AGAIN. I’ve heard that YOUR exhibition ROCKS ! VIVA France ! Viva AUDREY !!!
Ill say this in agreement with Johan, it seems Tatiana has become a servant of a style imposed by her school. And people wonder why s\many of the best were self taught. Education can be a killer, buyer beware. The storyboartding is probably almost right on judging what Ive read of Crewdson himself.
THIS IS THE READING LIST …FROM MR. SIDNEY ATKINS
MR.SIDNEY ATKINS THANK YOU and THANK YOU and THANK YOU !!!
SIR SIDNEY :
Sidney Atkins
BOOKLIST FOR “ROAD TRIPS”:
The Classics:
****************************
The Journey Upcountry (Anabasis, aka. The Persian Expedition) by Xenophon
The Odyssey by Homer
The Nature of Things by Lucretius
Tale of Genji by Murasaki Shikibu
Journey To The West (Monkey) translated by Arthur Waley
The Travels of Marco Polo
Midsummer Night’s Dream and The Tempest by Will Shakespeare
The Muqaddimah by Ibn Khaldun
Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire by Edward Gibbon
Tom Jones by Henry Fielding
War and Peace and (not or!) Anna Karenina by Leo Tolstoy
Red and Black (Rouge et Noir) by Stendhal
The Heart of Midlothian by Sir Walter Scott
Moby Dick and Typee by Herman Melville
The Count of Monte Cristo by Alexandre Dumas
Leaves of Grass by Walt Whitman
Wind In The Willows by Kenneth Graham
Treasure Island by R.L. Stevenson
Tom Sawyer and Huckleberry Finn by Sam Clemens (Mark Twain)
Two Years Before The Mast by Richard Henry Dana
Kim by Rudyard Kipling
The Star Rover and Call of the Wild by Jack London
Lord Jim, Youth, and Victory by Joseph Conrad
Lost Illusions and A Harlot High and Low by Honore de Balzac
The Crock of Gold by James Stephens
The Odyssey: A Modern Sequel by Nikos Kazantzakis
Strange News From Another Star by Hermann Hesse
———————————
Non-Fiction:
****************************
Montcalm and Wolfe and the Conspiracy of Pontiac by Francis Parkman
Akenfield by Ronald Blythe
Kon Tiki by Thor Heyerdahl
Korea and Her Neighbours by Isabella Bird Bishop
The Land of Little Rain by Mary Austin
Testimony of the Spade by Geoffrey Bibbey
Memories of Silk and Straw by Dr. Junichi Saga
The Grass Roof by Younghill Kang
Slow Boats to China and Slow Boats Home by Gavin Young
Seven Pillars of Wisdom by T. E. Lawrence
Across the Wide Missouri by Bernard De Voto
Heart of the Hunter and Yet Being Someone Other by Laurens van der Post
Two Kinds of Time by Graham Peck
The White Nile and The Blue Nile by Alan Moorehead
White Waters and Black by Gordon MacCreagh
The Great Columbia Plain by Donald Meinig
Third Class Ticket by Heather Wood
A Moveable Feast by Ernest Hemingway
Memoirs of William L. Shirer
Shadows on the Silk Road by Colin Thubron
News From Tartary by Peter Fleming
And the Rain My Drink… by Han Suyin
Heaven’s Command, Pax Britannica, and Farewell The Trumpets by James (Jan) Morris
Bonaparte in Egypt by Christopher Herold
China Road by Rob Gifford
The Songlines by Bruce Chatwin
In Search Of History by Theodore White
A New Age Now Begins by Page Smith
Coming Into the Country by John MacPhee
West With the Night by Beryl Markham
Happy Isles of Oceania by Paul Theroux
Nihon no Kawa o Tabi Suru (Travelling Japan’s Rivers) by Noda Tomosuke
——————————
Fiction:
*****************************
Man’s Fate (La Condition Humaine) by Andre Malraux
Hawaii by James Michener
The Quiet American by Graham Greene
Alexandria Quartet by Laurence Durrell
The General In His Labyrinth by Gabriel Garcia Marquez
V by Thomas Pynchon
Gaijin by James Clavell
That Night In Lisbon and All Quiet On The Western Front by Eric Maria Remarque
A Farewell To Arms by Ernest Hemingway
The Guide and The Vendor Of Sweets by R. K. Narayan
The Horseman On The Roof by Jean Giono
Letters From Thailand by Botan
O Zone and Picture Palace by Paul Theroux
Malayan Trilogy, Nothing Like The Sun, and Napoleon Symphony by Anthony Burgess
The Children of Sanchez by Oscar Lewis
The Asiatics by Frederic Prokosch
Wind, Sand, and Stars and Night Flight by Antoine de Saint-Exupery
Pictures of Fidelmann by Bernard Malamud
Spangle by Gary Jennings
The Big Sky by A. B. Guthrie
Raintree County by Ross Lockridge
A Leaf In The Storm by Lin Yutang
Rickshaw Boy by Lao She
The Sword in the Stone by T. H. White
The Makioka Sisters (Sasameyuki) by Junichiro Tanizaki
The Enchanters by Romain Gary
The Last Time I Saw Paris and Paris in the Springtime by Elliot Paul
Sometimes A Great Notion and Last Go Round by Ken Kesey
At Play In The Fields Of The Lord by Peter Mathiessen
Have a beautiful READING days…I am DYSLEXIC …
I buy only PICTURE BOOKS !
P.S WHERE ARE YOUR PICTURES …Go out and SHOOT !!! I am waiting
KATIE
yours forever …Where are you Street fighter ???
Guess who is watching now …LOVE
My GRACIE,
I need your music…your poems …
Can I sing NOW ?? Can I ???
VIVA civilian :))))
Kisses my Bro !
Civi – love your organizational gene, man. You are invaluable – you should get paid. in extra virgin olive oil.
VIVA Civilian.
Can we promote you from Audience to Chief Flame Organizer ? you will still stay Civilian, bro.
HAIK, WE MISSED YOU !!!Welcome back…
BUT Focus HAIK, focus…
CREDIT: Credit where Credit is Due! MR. SIDNEY ATKINS he is invaluable
and he received his key …Extra virgin olive oil is Waiting at home !!!
VIVA PHOTOGRAFIA , VIVA ART HISTORY, VIVA UNIVERSITIES of the UNIVERSE !!!
P.S Haik thanks for the promotion…I am speechlesssssss
Civi,
As a fellow dyslexic I can tell you that my world has changed since I discovered audiobooks…
By the by, if all goes as planned I’ll be in Athens from mid June until early July… if you’re willing and able, I’ll buy beers…
THODORIS ,
my fellow dyslexic !!!Oime, I wish I can be here to see you !
But as I wrote before …my days here in the BURNLAND are numbered …
I am out of time …no kidding
In few days I am traveling West, far far West … I” ll be gone .
BUT ,there is always a BUT with ME:
I WILL BE BACK …and You have a reserved room and the key. You have A Greek house Now.
I have collected few e-mail addresses “here and there” …Davidb , Katie, Sidney, Dah, ….
and as soon as I will be back and fully organized …I will expect you all …
MEETING IN YOUR GREEK HOUSE … with magnetic walls, etc, etc…
See you soon Θοδωρη !!!!!!!! Mythos beer on YOU ! LOVE to Cyprus
…my days here in the BURNLAND are numbered …
what? that’s rude :)
Dearest HAIK,
I came as a Civilian and I will exit as a Civilian.
I expect some Civilian casualties …on my way out …but I guess it comes with the
territory !!!
I LOVE YOU ALLLLLL…
Can i sing now ?
Well, I will start from Today !!!
HAPPY BIRTHDAY MR.HARVEY and HAPPY BIRTHDAY to all of you that you “CAME” today
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEc8rGonrQw&feature=related
FOR ALL of you !!!
Civi…
Too bad… I was looking forward to meet you in person…
Αν είναι ζήτημα υγείας, σου εύχομαι ότι καλύτερο…
Good energy to you on your trip to the West…
I’ll catch you next time…
ΤΗΑΝΚ YOU so much THODORIS !!!
I love picture books please I am waiting for yours too !!!
WELL,Εχω δυο πατριδες …***
υγεια ακομη ολα καλα…για το σπιτι στην Ελλαδα , το εννοω.
Θα κανουμε ενα μεγαλο παρτι με την επιστροφη μου.
Energy wishes all accepted… I “LL BE WATCHING !!!
See you
***Thodoris knows Greek… we were talking about the Greek house :))))
Civi…
*Right now* I’m working on a tiny booklet to take with me on my coming trip to Athens.
I’ll be participating in an exhibition (part of the Athens Fringe Festival), and I want to have a sample book to show around.
Once you get back from your trip send me an email with your address and I’ll send you one.
My email is on my website…
mike,
i really enjoy reading your words, even if they contradict my own or make my own seem a bit juvenile. i wish you said more around here, but I’m sure you have your reasons and I can only imagine the cognitive dissonance it causes you.
All,
this is all starting to look too much like a witch hunt. And it might unfairly look like it was started by Johan because he is so articulate, so convincing, and for the most part always enlightening. But, (Johan correct if i’m wrong,) i don’t think Johan was using his enlightening powers to wage a crusade against Crewdson or against Yale, or against MFA programs.
i think Johan was suggesting that 1.) The author of the essay seemed to be emulating the work of Crewdson to a point of reducing the impact of ‘personal authorship’, and Johan was suspicious that 2.) this grant selection might be susceptible to the influence of products from Crewdson’s program.
So first: emulating the work of Crewdson. Let’s admit the obvious, Crewdson is a really amazing photographer (even if he doesn’t float your boat Rafal, you must see the genius of the imagination, intent and the execution), and if we could do it well, we could do loads worse than emulating his work. His closing encounter’s remakes still haunt every time i see them. There’s a very believable image in the book of this women that looks like she’s ‘so’ off her rocker that she’s about to lay an egg in some top soil, I mean wtf!.
as far as emulating really amazing photographers, it happens all the time and shamelessly with documentary photographers, so i don’t see anything sinister at work here. For me i just can’t tie the same jaw dropping impact i get from the ‘Crewdson’ approach, the ‘rejection of the recognisable moment’, with the work of this author.
part of me thinks that Crewdson has really just invented a new kind of ambiguity, an old technique, and the bread and butter of real photography. What he’s done to implement it is interesting, where the traditional use of ambiguity usually makes us wonder about all the ‘possible’ possibilities, leaving us with questions that have legitimate answers, we just don’t know which one it could be, Crewdson has actually removed all the legitimate answers from the equation, he’s morphed the ambiguity to such an extent, but made the photograph so believable that we can not even resolve the appropriate questions to ask before we even begin to explore possible answers. It really is genius and the natural extension of what Jeff Wall does.
That being said, do not throw out everything we learned about general ambiguity, composition, subject matter, legitimacy of concept, or coherence of images in an essay. These are still going to be a legitimate judge and jury no matter where you come from and this is why I think this author fails. When i say this i remember the difference of opinions i had with DAH over the Kingsley story.
http://mediastorm.org/0010.htm
i stated that i love the Kingsley concept, but i found the images both weak and easy to forget, but didn’t find that to be too much of a problem because the message still sits with me and I think about Kinglsey every time I hear about the plight on the news.
David’s response to that was that you really need to have good images and a good concept, because there are people out there that do have both and you shouldn’t settle for less. In the same vein, i think we might be settling for less with this finalist.
So Long Live Crewdson though! I’ll buy every book he produces.
Last, and quickly, the idea that David is playing into the ‘Programs’. On the surface, now that all the documentation has been researched and produced on the finalist, it would seem that the possibility is ‘possible’ but since the entrance criteria was not to send a biography/resume of yourself, doesn’t that seem a bit impossible?
i don’t know, i guess i just didn’t think of that because i just suspected it wouldn’t be possible, David could give us the real answer if he didn’t feel a bit frustrated that we are insinuating that he is being bullied by the institutions or needs to include them to keep doors open.
I don’t know. I’ve always wanted to communicate through photography, make photography accessible to everyone, not just to people steeped in art culture and art history that understand some obscure “concept” within which they are to interpret the photos. Never been interested in making photos for insiders only; but, that’s what a number of people seem to be advocating. The “art world” is incestuous, and all the inbreeding often morphs the “product” into something unrecognizable.
Find the latest fad in art, get really good at producing stuff in that fad, throw in a little PR, and rake in the bucks. If that’s the world you want to move in, more power to you. But you exclude the rest of the world from your audience. Most folks don’t want to study the concept, or idea or influence of the photographer to understand the photo.
I guess it’s who you want your work to communicate with. I do know art history, understand the movements, etc. But I evaluate a photo the way most people do. Does it grab me, say something to me, when I look at it? Without reference to any construct within which the photographer is working.
Thodoris,
YOU are so LUCKY ! I wish you the best!
I had a free Pass for the Festival ( I was a volunteer …KID’EM’ALL ) for the kids 20-21st of June
and anyways blah…blah..I gave it away …wish you the BEST !!!
Thanks for the idea T…I forgot that I can e-mail everyone ( all I have to do is to check your websites)
I am in awe !!!
BURN magazine ,
can I sing again???
if you can appreciate any movie made for the masses then you can appreciate the work from people like Crewdson or Jeff Wall. Although both are probably border-line geniuses, if not more, their work is not produced only for intellectual snobs. Their work is accessible to the masses and interesting to the masses, even if the masses don’t understand why, a testament to the power of their work.
take for encounter, ‘Close Encounters’, No doubt Jim you feel nostalgic when you ponder those films, i still remember watching them in an outdoor movie theatre in San Bernardino in the back of our brown dodge pick-up truck, i remember the juicy fruits i was eating, and i remember how the space ship looked when it made those horn like sounds inside that mountain.
Crewdson’s Twilight series re-invokes all those strange ‘Close Encounters’ emotions and then some more, and you don’t need to know that we were pieced with arrows of Hollywood space symbols thirty years ago, but Crewdson knows those seeds were planted and he waters them with his images and grows them back out of us, and i’m sure it would invoke anyone from the Close Encounter’s era. Jeff Wall does something very similar with other images we’ve been steeped in without knowing it.
My point is that it’s accessible to all of us and interesting to all of us without us needing to know why.
My repetitive point is when complex techniques are done poorly it’s not suddenly ‘inaccessible’, it’s just work that’s done poorly.
By the way:
Tableau Vivant
Today, the approach is exemplified by fine art photographers and artists such as Justine Kurland, Roger Ballen, Jan Saudek, Sandy Skoglund, Gregory Crewdson, Jeff Wall, Amy Stein and Bernard Faucon. It has also influenced current trends in photocompositing.
Pictures of this sort are sometimes casually called “staged photography,” but this is an imprecise term – since the simple posing of fashion models in the street is also ‘staged photography’. Tableau vivant is a more precise term to use, if the staged picture obviously draws on the traditions and conventions of either the theatre or painting. Observe also that early photography involved exposure times in the minutes, so that there was the need to hold a pose.
Do you really think Crewdson appeals to the masses? What evidence do you have of that?
I understand what Crewdson is doing. I get it. I still don’t like his “photos,” but I do get it. I’m not convinced he has a mass following, though.
Here in Oz when we mention magnum we mean icecream……… what magnum photography, dunno mate what’s that. Crewdson…… isn’t that the neighbour’s rude son. Sorry but photographers are not on tip people’s tongues, they look and then get on with the next image. Mick from Bullamakenka only watches movies
Evidence: sixty year bank teller mom and seventy year old truck driver dad, neither college educated and thirty year old high-school teacher sister, they thought the photographs were really weird, but interesting enough to look at every picture in the book and talk about the movie and our lives back then, so it was clearly comprehensible.
also, i never said mass ‘following’ Jim, you were arguing mass ‘accessibility’.
don’t swerve now and suggest ‘following’ criteria since you will still shoot yourself in the foot. When it comes to photographic followings there are no authors that have ‘masses’ that follow them, if followers were considered in just a vacuum then Crewdson probably has the strongest ‘following’ since he can actually breed his followers and a he can sell even a single image, (and there are five more that look just like it) for $60,000. Do the math on that kind of ‘following’.
IMANTS…
nothing better than one of those Magnum classic ice cream bars…..love ’em
JOE….JOHAN ….ALL
Mike is going to develop some articles for us on photographic history…so that Mick from Bullamakenka can catch up….i think Mike will be right along with you in our new system of having specified “columnists”
by the way, and i think i missed a post, i am not reading from anyone else’ script…nor bullied by anyone….nor influenced by anyone…..i am not on anyone’s salary or paycheck…
whatever you see here is simply my opinion of best of several different photographic genres from the work submitted…a representation of what young photographers are doing today…just that simple…
i would never read a bio, then reconsider the pictures…
in any case, the bios came to us AFTER the finalists were chosen…Young Tom Hyde was the man who went after all the bios and double checked the factual representations…maybe he can explain the process etc if he so chooses..i quite literally read the bio for Tatiana just minutes before i published…..
we probably shoulda coulda had bios as part of the submission process, but we did not…besides, let’s face it, some people are very very good at writing bios….
my theory: the better the photographer , the shorter the bio….
we will publish bios from now on under essays….
any student of Burn would quickly surmise that i have eclectic tastes in photography and have published a wide variety from day one…
cheers, david
Looks like Raelene is in luck Mick will have to develop those rolls from the Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras Sydney ’03
Raeles reckons his own happy snaps will never make magnum….Mick can be shy…http://etrouko.com.au/art/GLMG209.jpg
Gotta love you jim. first you dont like printed down stuff..then you dont like blurry ‘grab’ shots ..etc etc..
Then when the story is set in your manor, and covers an issue you are magnetic to, you are all over it. Please try and be consistent. Just a thought.
John
HA!!!!! Mr. Powers you have just soooo Been Busted! The extent of the hipocracy! You’re on probation for at least three essays now!!
Off to work, but just one thought that has been coming at me, looking at so much new work, not just the EPF, then David mentionning photography that will take on its meaningfulness and place in “history” when re-discovered.
Any photography that does not come from the photographer trusting her/his eye (a SENSORY organ), any photo/essay that does not start with an eye, can safely join the trash bins, once off the gallery walls. You can follow a school of thought, you can conceptualize, and you can blur, tilt and scratch all you want, if it doesn’t start with your eye, it will eventually fail. Thta’s the problem in general with me, with so much stuff seen lately. Where is the eye? (You know I mean eye as in seeing and Seeing, not sighting)
as usual, IMO.
John, I noted that there were some photos in the set I didn’t like. But I think the project overall has merit because these rodeo guys are such huge contradictions. It needs more depth, fewer fuzzy photos, and text to go with it, though. I don’t think many folks would want one of these photos hanging on the wall, so a book is an obvious choice. I would like to see this expanded into a really in depth book.
Davin:
I have been following what you have been through the past couple dozen hours or so. Some Burnian once said, hmm…Young Tom i believe, that there´s a lot of laughs and fun and comeraderie here as long as you don´t leave the table. So, be sure you don´t leave the table. Many of us have been through a similar ordeal here, defending our ideals, our notions, our beliefs until we´re worn to a frazzle. This forces us to dig in and really look at this time-worn inner structure of comfortable notions we´ve been carrying around unchallenged, unquestioned and suddenly we are like the ´bride stripped bare by her bachelors´ twisting in the wind of group challenge. We´re forced to examine what works, what doesn´t, why, how, what, can we/are we willing to stand up to the abuse of others who have, let´s face it, all been through the same ordeal a time or two as well?
You said what you believed, you stood by it, you defended your spot. You did so honorably and energetically. It was all good from my standpoint. When you´ve had time to process the experience, to think through it you will be back, i hope, a smarter, wiser more thoughtful photographer than you were on Monday. So, i look forward to seeing more of your input and wish you a little peace and quiet for a few days to work it all out.
Best
Kat-
I hope you realise that i am only playing here jim but….
what use are these pictures? What can we do with them? Does it help or enrich us to know what they do?
Would a book on a coffee table in any way change their precarious life?
…..and lastly would a book on say ‘The last of the speedway riders’, or ‘bullfighting’, do it for you if shot in the same way?
Saying that though i have been looking again at jerome leiblings pictures of old ‘handball’ players, a sport of which i know nothing about, shot in a country i care little for (sorry people)..and yet I LOVE those pictures.
JOHN
davin. What kathleen just said.
KATIE and All BURNIANS
can I sing Now ???
John might be teasing, I’m Not! ;-) I’ve bookmarked your comment on the rodeo piece and may use a link to it to sign all of my future comments! ;-)
John, it would be an interesting story, but I don’t think they want us to change their life! :)
They are adrenaline junkies. Members of an exclusive club.
Credit when credit is due!!!
Double ouzo for extra work !!!
P.S Can I sing now ???
Joe, I’ve have my attorney contact you about limited rights to the comment. ;)
Civi:
sing, baby sing..and while you are singing, can i dance?
love
katie
LOVE YOU
my Street Fighter !!! I AM SINGING and you can dance …new dance moves to learn !!!
HAPPY BIRTHDAY
civilian –
yes we am a gemini :-)
a
17th ?
I have to sing again since I am not gonna be around BABE
TO MY ANTON , HAPPY BIRTHDAY
MMV: Funny Happy Birthday Song
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ej1ylPIk44o&feature=related
LOVE
ANTON,
I tried for the Japanese Version …hmmm…
for you …You are my finalist
Kathleen:
I have no interest in being on here at all anymore. How was I not thoughtful on Monday?! I was standing up for Tatiana when others were leveling unwarranted criticism at her. Others on here could be more thoughtful. Not me. I am out of here. I know perfectly well what I am talking about. It really does seem as if some people have no idea of the art photo world. Stop in at a gallery or on a critique and you will see that there are a whole host of ‘photographers’ who do not subscribe to the ideas that many Burnians hold so dear.
“You give but little when you give of your possessions. It is when you give of yourself that you truly give.”
– Kahlil Gibran
Is that why we hurt more?
John G,
I just joined the action. When I saw this essay come up I thought “Jim will be right there, its on his turf”
Classic
Ian@ Yeah. Id love to be one of jims poker buddies :) Have a whole book full of tells.
Davin@. No one (as far as i recall) attacked tatiana, far from it. Her work is up regardless anyway. People were debating the ‘work’. If you feel that what is said is unwarranted or that people are commenting from a place of ignorance(mainly guilty you honour) then you say so, which you did. This does not seem to be the place for single interest groups and nor would anyone expect it to be either considering who curates it.;
The beauty of that is that a very wide body of talent from multiple disciplines gather here to chew the fat. and people who are PASSIONATE about things are going to debate passionately. That has to be a good thing right?
BTW you have really good work, love the tones in your BW stuff…and the people in some of your pictures also make good pictures….I like that. maybe you stick around we can all learn something from each other.
Running into the darkroom now…
JOHN
The other thing I wanted to say is that I am on your side! I am a reportage photographer myself! My whole idea of photography though was turned on its head when I started mentoring with a photographer from Yale. He could have been from any MFA program (although Yale does have a certain aesthetic as of late). What I am saying is that there are those who use photography in a very different way than reportage as I would assume people are quite aware and this is a perfectly valid kind of photography. Staged photography is perfectly valid. It is for this reason I didn’t understand some of the criticism leveled at Tatiana. There is a lot of important art work that uses the photographic medium but where the actual images aren’t necessarily ‘great’ photographs according to standard criteria. It is art as opposed to straight photography. So far, I have found Tatiana’s essay to be the most interesting actually.
BURNIANS ,
Respect … and freedom of “spirit” is what it makes US BURNing
Please, I would recommend to check this out …
Angry Penguin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XGBRzEtExfQ&feature=related
Civilian Casualty :)))))
VIVA !!! viva !!!
Davin,
Chin up, you’re a thoughtful writer and a fine photographer… stick around, I need all the fellow travelers I can find.
As for your original question way back about a masterclass for book publishing: check out Jeffrey Ladd and Ken Schles “Making the Photographic Book: A Weekend Workshop” at Pacific Street Workshops in Brooklyn. True, they just had it but they might be a good resource. Ladd is the guy behind the 5B4 photobook blog and Errata Editions… and Schles is the author/photographer of Invisible City among many others books…
Grad school? If you’re up for it, go for it, I say… there are a lot of great programs out there, not just Yale, but RISD, RIT, and my sentimental favorites Mass Art and the Museum School in Boston off the top of my head… there will be naysayers, those that will tell you it’s a waste or unnecessary, but they are the ones that didn’t go themselves. Ask anyone who actually has an MFA in photography and I will bet dollars to donuts they’ll say they’re glad they did it. Difficult? Yes. Entirely pleasant? No. Expensive? Yup. Worth it? Definitely.
Plus, school is a great place to ride out a recession…
Hang in there.
Davin,
Stick around, your views here are as important as anybody else’s.
I agree staged photography is perfectly valid as is other art photography. But how do the practitioners of this type of photography earn a living from it ? I have always assumed it is from the gallery scene and print sales. Staged Photography has been fashionable in this market for a while now. It’s hip and cool. I understand it but it’s not for me.
Tatiana’s essay just didn’t work for me. After looking at the rest of her work, in my opinion she’s just not in the same league as the rest of the finalists that we’ve seen so far.
Barrie Watts:
I am a professional at being misunderstood over e-mail and on forums! I assure you if I could be in person with you all we could have a much better conversation and easily see where everyone is coming from. The internet has both its strengths and weaknesses–now the whole world can communicate with each other but its virtually and its very easy to offend people and be taken the wrong way because you can’t see the person’s face or hear their intonation. I didn’t mean to sound condescending or to assume that others here aren’t aware of other styles of photography. . . I was trying to get my point across and it would be much easier to do like I say in person.
Thanks Mike. I found a long term project editing workshop with Alex Webb this August in Provincetown, Massachusetts. I actually already got an MA in photo in London, UK in 2006. . . somehow I am still in great need of a photo community to bounce ideas off of etc.
My mistake, I must have misunderstood. Good luck with the Webb workshop, though.
Lance…………
again…….. that was wonderful…….!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
un fucking believable…… and the EDIT ?
the EDIT of all EDITS…….. AMAZING PIECE……..of Work!!!!!!!
Iconic….!!!!!!!!!!
Im soooooooo impressed!!!!!!!!!!!
Just as Jim stopped doing his dramatic exits, Davin is at it. Stay, or leave, but just don’t make a drama out of it. Davin, I think you are smart and have a lot to say, but you don’t always consider your words which causes problems. Who attacked TATIANA? Nobody attacked her, at least not from what I read. People criticized her WORK, not her personally. What do you expect anyway? Burn is a collection of people with strong beliefs willing to express and argue them. If you put your work up on Burn, expect it to be both loved and shelled. That’s just natural and to be expected. Its something I expected when I had mine go up a few months ago. It was both loved and hated, I was personally attacked and called names. But that’s part of the game. As far as I can see nobody has called Tatiana any names and no bile was directed at her personally. I wish you took the time to refute what people were arguing instead of calling others ignorant, telling them to visit galleries and simply assuming us all to be stuck in some 1950s Life magazine way of thinking. Having Yale on your resume doesn’t make one infallible and doesn’t make the work automatically brilliant. Stay or go, I wont urge you to do either, its your choice. Make it but stop talking about it.
Rafal,
Understood. I just was trying to say I didn’t think all the criticism was warranted, but of course that is my opinion just as the people who had some criticism were voicing theirs! Tatiana’s work is a project that seems to be really coming from a different angle than some of the others since it is comprised of documentary images about an imaginary life. I find it interesting and therefore wanted to stand up for it and maybe got a bit carried away. I don’t think anyone attacked her at all. The comments were all very respectful. I guess I was just trying to point out–and I am sure everyone already knows this–that there is a world of artist/photographers who use photographic images in very different ways than what I think many of us here–myself included–would consider to be great work. The only reason Yale is a bit of a lightening rod for me is that it is a very reputable program and accepts only 9 students per year and many graduates go on to have very successful and high profile careers in the art world. Of course one doesn’t just want to glorify a school and its students/graduates blindly. As I said before, I sat in on a critique there and have had a mentor for a number of years who is a graduate and the thinking coming from an MFA program–it doesn’t have to be Yale, it could be others–can be eye opening. I was at first quite turned off by it. The day I was there, the first student up was showing pictures of himself in his underwear straddling a log pointing towards the sky and he had smeared vaseline on the lens of his 4×5 camera. I personally have always been inspired by photographers like Harvey and others at Magnum. But trying to wrap my head around other kinds of photography than reportage has, I think, helped begun to broaden my own work and ideas. Anyways, much respect Rafal and thanks for taking the time to reply to my repeated writings. I will stay here of course and won’t resort to anymore high drama.
So What is explicit in Lances essay??….
11 finalists?… Did I miss something?
Lantce
Yes, #4, wonderful, a classic.
Its always a good idea to stay. Its too interesting to leave and you dont want to be a drama queen like Jim who left about 47 times and returned soon after. So stay, and have fun. We need real people.
A million appologies, I broke the one post rule, thought I was on Buzz.
Oh, i was. False alarm.
DAVIN…et AL
I recommend everyone watch this on Gregory Crewsdon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RywAfP4KFcY
before commenting much more about the Yale School.
Crewsdons kind of work (the image not the process) was pioneered by people like Edward Hopper and Joel Sternfield and seems to me to be a curiously American aesthetic. The sheer overwhelming loneliness of being American and being disconnected from your real identity (America is an immigration country afterall) and having to fabricate one for yourself runs deeply through many artists representations of themselves and country I believe.
I read this to be the philosophical underpinning in Tatianas essay.
I have resisted commenting on any of the finalists as they are all in the running for a $10K grant and I for one would not like to be responsible for amkong making a choice between such divergent essays as Tatiana’s and Lance’s, for example, as to who I would award that amount of walung to or on what grounds (I know which one I would like to see receive it, but thats my business)
BUT when it comes to a discussion about the validity of a photographic essay to reveal a philosophical or theorectical viewpoint then I believe that debating the theory is NOT to be confused with the quality or the ability of that artist to communiate the viewpoint.
By that I mean, I believe the audience on BURN to be quite sophisticated and David to be quite clever in selecting these particular finalists but they are UNFINISHED EMERGING PHOTOGRAPHERS. While they may all be representative of different genres and styles NONE of them are even close to being as successful in delivering their work as people who are far more practiced at what they are doing.
While much depth in meaning and technique is aquired with continual practice at your art and maturity is gained with the gathering of time, the EPF finalists are young in terms of their career development and should not be expected to be masters at this moment. If some of them fail completely to deliver their own ‘voice’ with conviction, well isn’t that the whole point of this grant? To encourage them and provide them with funds to continue pushing for that uniqueness of ‘authorship’
To me then, what matters about the theory is the ability of the photographer to transcend it and to develope their own particular expressions of it. And if you see someone teetering on the edge of that and know that if you gave them a shove in the right direction they would be able to do it then thats who the award should go to.
DAVIN
OMG someone sitting on the end of a log in their undies?
MMMMMWWWWAAAAAHHHHHAAAAAA!!!!!!!
I here’s a link to an Aboriginal urban artist friend of mine’s painterly take on that… very funny and subversive (oooh-er and a bit explicit)… Watch out!
http://www.artreview.com.au/art/profiles/artists/adam-hill.aspx
It is true Gordon that there are two pixilated parallel worlds in coexistence here on Burn. I don’t think there is any problem straddling them or jumping from one to another without a second thought, however what may be jeopardous is if you were to fall in between the cracks. Forever stuck in that vast black hole better known as cyberspace.
Davin it is good to see you back on board. You should follow the example of the protaganist Jimmy Borunda in Lance’s essay and get back on that horse as soon as possible. There are a few bucking broncos galloping here and I have landed on my arse a few times, but it may pay to to get back on that horse as soon as possible.
Good luck,
JJ
OK is it just me or does random moderation occur around here?
I don’t want to be caught in the ‘black hole of cyberspace’ Forever exiled from the mental warmth of the philosphical fire….
Will do Johan, will do.
Interesting Stephen Shore interview: http://www.theartnewspaper.tv/content.php?vid=544
Also this film on William Eggleston is worth a watch:
http://www.snagfilms.com/films/title/william_eggleston_in_the_real_world/
This was moderated so if it shows up thrice my apologies… just didn’t want to get caught in the ‘black hole’ of cyberspace…
DAVIN…et AL
I recommend everyone watch this on Gregory Crewsdon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RywAfP4KFcY
before commenting much more about the Yale School.
Crewsdons kind of work (the image not the process) was pioneered by people like Edward Hopper and Joel Sternfield and seems to me to be a curiously American aesthetic. The sheer overwhelming loneliness of being American and being disconnected from your real identity (America is an immigration country afterall) and having to fabricate one for yourself runs deeply through many artists representations of themselves and country I believe.
I read this to be the philosophical underpinning in Tatianas essay.
I have resisted commenting on any of the finalists as they are all in the running for a $10K grant and I for one would not like to be responsible for amkong making a choice between such divergent essays as Tatiana’s and Lance’s, for example, as to who I would award that amount of walung to or on what grounds (I know which one I would like to see receive it, but thats my business)
BUT when it comes to a discussion about the validity of a photographic essay to reveal a philosophical or theorectical viewpoint then I believe that debating the theory is NOT to be confused with the quality or the ability of that artist to communiate the viewpoint.
By that I mean, I believe the audience on BURN to be quite sophisticated and David to be quite clever in selecting these particular finalists but they are UNFINISHED EMERGING PHOTOGRAPHERS. While they may all be representative of different genres and styles NONE of them are even close to being as successful in delivering their work as people who are far more practiced at what they are doing.
While much depth in meaning and technique is aquired with continual practice at your art and maturity is gained with the gathering of time, the EPF finalists are young in terms of their career development and should not be expected to be masters at this moment. If some of them fail completely to deliver their own ‘voice’ with conviction, well isn’t that the whole point of this grant? To encourage them and provide them with funds to continue pushing for that uniqueness of ‘authorship’
To me then, what matters about the theory is the ability of the photographer to transcend it and to develope their own particular expressions of it. And if you see someone teetering on the edge of that and know that if you gave them a shove in the right direction they would be able to do it then thats who the award should go to.
DAVIN
OMG someone sitting on the end of a log in their undies?
MMMMMWWWWAAAAAHHHHHAAAAAA!!!!!!!
I here’s a link to an Aboriginal urban artist friend of mine’s painterly take on that… very funny and subversive (oooh-er and a bit explicit)… Watch out!
http://www.artreview.com.au/art/profiles/artists/adam-hill.aspx
Bob, Lance’s EPF entry, why did you have to break the one comment rule? What if we all did like you?
LISA HOGBEN
I have resisted commenting on any of the finalists as they are all in the running for a $10K grant and I for one would not like to be responsible for amkong making a choice between such divergent essays as Tatiana’s and Lance’s
——————————–
I have no idea what you mean, Lisa. How would you be responsible, and for what? why would commenting on divergent essays mean making a choice?
Lisa, the signature of personal authorship should be illustrated in at least some of the photographs of these essays. It is important that there are some standout photographs that signal the author’s intent and to separate mediocre from talented. To hope or make vague predictions that someone will use the grant to transcend a concept as a whole and then move into their own unique authorship is certainly at best optimistic, especially if they have haven’t managed to climb the wall to teeter on that edge.
If the photographer is so concerned with adhering to a particular style then it can cloud their overall perception of events. So, unfortunately the end result is that there is a distinct lack of content and emotion due to this distortion. Styles, trends and concepts come and go but the true artist should rise above these to mould or shape their own interpretation of people, places and events. To secure the grant it would be hoped that the artist has some captured some special or unique images that rise above an overall trend.
Thanks,
JJ
Lisa,
good video, but it really just re-inforced my perception of Crewdson. I just dont find his work interesting, nor do I find his way of working interesting. It seems he is like a person who speaks a lot of words but says very little. The whole thing seems to me more about the process itself than the final product and I have no doubt the process is very much a reason the final product goes for such high prices. The work to me is gloss. Its like a high budget Hollywood superproduction that in the end, after it sets the box office records, doesnt stand up to artistic scrutiny when the dust settles. The photos have no soul, they say nothing. He is like Stephen Spielberg, but I can’t name a truly great Spielberg movie. Give me Kieslowski any day, give me K’s Decalogue over S’s E.T. Can you tell I’m not a fan?
Shoot! Well said Lisa! “BUT when it comes to a discussion about the validity of a photographic essay to reveal a philosophical or theorectical viewpoint then I believe that debating the theory is NOT to be confused with the quality or the ability of that artist to communiate the viewpoint.”
I agree with your point here and I have just been making comparisons based upon differing artistic theories as opposed to also considering ability to communicate. . . I guess I just was really happy to see Harvey pick work that is divergent from traditional documentary.
I also like your point about America and the disconnection. I always have wished I was from some small European country! Unfortunately, in my effort to find myself and have adventure I have moved to Bucharest and am completely marooned over here hence my need to speak to other photographers here on Burn. Harvey has created his own online school here.
HERVE
Is english not your first language? I will give you the benefit of the doubt then and try and understand why you keep asking for clarification for everything I write.
Perhaps a couple of typo’s and lack of punctuation might send you into a spin, but I don’t think I can get any clearer than what I said and BTW did I ACTUALLY address you in particular?
OK here it is again for you HERVE
I don’t want to comment on the finalists because they are in the running for a $10K grant. (FULL-STOP) I for one would not like to be responsible for making a choice between such divergent essays as Tatiana’s and Lance’s.
I simply made two statements and while the English may be less than pretty I think the meaning of what I said is pretty clear.
Do you nit pick everyone or have you singled me out for special attention?
I don’t have time for this and I have allowed myself to get sucked back in by the Crewsdon debate, but I don’t want to waste my time anymore answering queries like yours HERVE. I am sorry if what I write seems so challenging to you but really I can’t be involved in this kind of discussion. Its fruitless for me and achieves nothing in pushing intelligent conversation forward.
No worries bub, I won’t engage anymore…
Re: Crewdson video
‘That’s a wrap, perfect photograph’
I am laughing a bit. . . His fther was a psychoanalyst who had his office in the basement! Now that would have been fun as a child listening in from above!. . . First off, Yale has other lecturers besides Crewdson and secondly that town in winter is Pittsfield, Massachusetts, the main town in the region where I grew up, the Berkshires of Western Massachusetts. I was laughing while watching in part because Pittsfield is sort of a joke now in the area because each succeeding mayor tries to revive a city that had its heyday in the 1950s and 1960s but can never quite do it. General Electric had a major headquarters there and later stationed the headquarters of GE Plastics in Pittsfield. The town has seen better days. Was up there a few weeks ago when I was home. Crewdson has a summer house in in the area.
Definately a different style of photography as he is basically shooting a movie but in still frames. Yes Lisa, you found the right video. This what I meant about the ‘other’ kind of photography although this is a bit of an extreme example.
good advice from that same Ovation series: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bUfXvQCnDUQ
I am riding my horse today ! LANCE …the horses! VIVA
WHere is My SpaceCOWboy ?
CAN I SING again? It’s morning in Europe …new day …can I sing?
I am signing off, but watch this! I love the first comment: “YEAH! She is going to live forever! Ashamed of this video!!!!”
This must be from Solid Gold Saturday Night or something. I remember watching the show in the early to mid 80s as a child with my older sister while my parents were out on a Saturday night.
I just can’t stop laughing:
Civil one to answer a queerie back in the 600 hundreds , no I don’t shoot weddings but I do funerals………
Rafal, i feel bad that you can’t enjoy Stephen Spielberg type work, you must have been born an adult as very few kids would turn their nose at that work, and since most don’t the symbols are seeded in most and Crewdson’s magic would work on most. It’s almost like you’re proud you’ve avoided a childhood of ice-cream and lollipops!
I just watched the Crewdson video, What’s not to like about this guy!,
i had my first dose of him when he had a feature in The Genius of Photography. I find him as likeable as his work, loads!
The irony is the there are loads of videos of Gilden and in every one of those clips Gildeh looks a crazy as a coconut, certainly certifiable, Crewdson come across as a Prince in comparison!
:-)
Davin,
I can highly recommend any workshop with Alex Webb…I did a one week workshop with him and his wife Rebecca in NYC last Oct. It was a wonderful week of intense street photography and in class critique. It was also nice having both Alex’s and Rebecca’s comments on our photos, because although their works are similar in some ways, they are also very different.
We did spend one day talking about making books and how to be selective about which photos to use and how they can fit together and flow in a nice sequence.
Otherwise it was about choosing strong photos from each day and then making a tight final selection at the end of the week.
Perhaps the workshop in Mass. is geared more directly towards making books….I don’t know.
David Bacher (to distinguish from DAH):
Thanks for the heads-up. Yeah, the Webbs seem to teach both a ‘Personal Vision” street shooting workshop all over the world as well as a Long-term project editing workshop. I actually don’t think there will be any shooting involved as we are supposed to bring around 80+ prints from a long-term project in which to edit into a book/exhibition and that is what I am looking for although the street workshop I would love to do also. You just have to look at the prolific work in the Magnum archive to see that he is a an absolute genious of color and composition and he was doing this around age 27 when he switched to color!
Rafal: well he did do Schindler’s List. I loved that selective coloring of the little girl in red.
Imants,
I wish I can HUG you right now !!! you rock my man !!!
See ya soon …hug Mick for me!!!
Joe,
I want to hug you too. If you don’t mind…? :)What not to love ?
Bobblack,
I miss your short postings!
My Gracie,
I miss ya ice-cream and your “music” …Ethan we love you!
Davidb,
you are my travel HERO !Tor Capa and Beate …love u
Sir Sidney,
Thank you
KATIE, KATIE, KATIE,
kiss my mom, my Juliette …my boy ,your man, your street kids !!!
oime !!! BURN …I got your e-mail !!!
TO all MY BURNIANS :
WTF , I AM GONNA SING NOW !!!
HAPPY BIRTHDAY
BUZZZZZZZZZ…
LIKE A BEE…
BUZZZZZZZZZ…
LIKE A BEE…
BEE HAPPY BIRTHDAY for the BUZZboy :))
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUtK5qfD_DQ&feature=related
I know YOU love ME …yikes
civilian..
ahh.. what to say.. what to say.
not all of the travelling has been physical unfortunately.. a certain amount of mental travelling has also torn me away from burn for a while..
recently our little joyous family walked straight into a small ‘heavy’.. which has taken time and a big slice of focus to overcome.
i’ve been missing burn and obviously missing some great frontpage stories.. and will be back next week, live from the dalmation coast with renewed energy.
DAH –
i asked anton to pass on a message, which i am sure he has.. apologies for being out of touch..
i’ll try to catch you next week to talk about london..
same with you joe – ben – paul.. beers in a matter of weeks..
superb.
davidx
ANTON the great..
back once again.. will be in touch.. hope you’re well mate..
in london from the wednesday until the saturday night.. you okay for a plce to stay?
d
lisa posts: The sheer overwhelming loneliness of being American and being disconnected from your real identity (America is an immigration country afterall) and having to fabricate one for yourself runs deeply through many artists representations of themselves and country I believe.”
This seems a little pretentious to me. I don’t think, since the slave days, that anyone has been forced to come to America. There is a simple way to keep from being “disconnected from your real identity.” Stay where you were born! Avoid the angst. Don’t come here and take money from our economy creating pretentious art expressing your “sheer overwhelming loneliness” at being here.
Good grief.
Don’t come here and take money from our economy creating pretentious art expressing your “sheer overwhelming loneliness” at being here…….. ahh and we were gonna come over and do a essay for burn about you and that is not about money
Joe,
hey, I agree, Crewdson is popcorn and ice cream. And I like the good Transformers flick in the summer. Hey, I watched Star Wars 2 days ago and it was a fun 2 hours. But the difference between Crewdson and Spielberg or Bay is that the latter dont pretend to create more than fun flicks. While the former is portrayed as something more than the ice cream sundae he is.
herve
i have deleted my 2nd post….rules were meant to be broken, but upon reflection, i figured ok, if it will detract from lance, i’ll remove it. i removed it myself and have had no discussions with david or anton. in my former postition as editor-at-large, i had the opportunity/priviledge to comment in gray (not used any more) or edit my comments (not used), but i decided this morning to remove my 2nd comment…though it was a song i forgot to post originally for him….
and this will be the last i write until after the epf….i dont want any attention any more
adios all
Way too much drama. In a week, nobody will remember (or care) what we posted.
who said that?
jim: exactly…and no one remembers pics from 2 months ago either, the bane of web….the drama has pooped me out…way too much bob black way too much jim powers….carry on…
ALL
what are you photographing today? :)))))
Bob Black what do you think about this concept:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mania
especially this part:
“have also been associated with creativity and artistic talent.”
ERICA…
best question i have seen…..
JIM…BOB…
what is with all the down beat??? the best of the words here are being saved….the best pictures, the best words, will hopefully be in either a book or an annual magazine or both….
Erica, I photographed a funeral today, I actually don’t mind doing stuff for the silent ones, but when everyone has left and you do that last shot it is always a weird feeling
my friends at work. Nothing special. :(
Erica,
new project http://www.flickr.com/photos/jinju/sets/72157617629790075/show/
something for an old project http://www.flickr.com/photos/jinju/3591621907/
anything I can, really
Imants, if the guest of honor isnt feeling weird about you being there, then neither should you.
Joe, creative people have been described in a number of studies over the year as borderline Schizophrenic. Hard to argue with. :)
i photographed the sea..
jim…
it’s easy to argue with..
no, it isn’t.
or is it?
Erica, I’m shooting tombstones today. Working with the local Historical Commission on a project to document all the county cemeteries (and there are MANY of them).
after they figured out i didn’t actually have A.D.D. it was the natural conclusion for my behavior and as most that suffer it would agree, it’s more of a gift than an illness. My theory is that it’s only a problem for people pointing the propensity in a direction that doesn’t celebrate it, in a world of eccentrics the manic looks like a prude.
jim…bob… john-boy… goodnight, mary-ellen, or was it mary-sue.. mary-ann? all will be ok..
;))
Imants:
Why were you shooting a funeral? And how did the faithful react to your camera? Just curious. I tried it once and you could see so many dour faces in the photos that i said never again. Not dour because of grief, dour because of the camera. And i didn´t just come off the street and invade the funeral procession. It was a guy who worked for us. Just fell down and died on the floor of the bodega one morning. And that was what i should have photographed but just couldn´t get up the nerve.
kat-
There is a long tradition here in the South of having photos made at funerals. More in some ethnic groups than others. I personally think it strange. I don’t want my final memories of the deceased to be of him/her laying stiff in a casket, but such visual documents seem important to many.
I’m not shooting anything today. I’m saving film and pixels for Saturday and Sunday, when there will civic events galore in this here neck of the woods. There’s a parade down the road (I love a good parade) and on Sunday, a flotilla will be sailing up river as part of the Quadcentennial. So today I will do nothing, tomorrow I will do nothing, and the weekend will be busy.
Mary Ann? Good night, Gilligan, good night, Skipper, and good night, Mrs. Calabash, wherever you are.
YOU are ALL HILARIOUS !!! ( to be perceived as a joke)
You are my favorite “mistakes” :) ” ”
I LOVE YOU ALL!!! YOU ARE ALL AMAZING !!! HOW MUCH I HAVE LEARN FROM YOU !!!
WHO SAID BURN IS DOWN ??? I SEE ONLY UP,UP,UP …
VIVA Donations!!! VIVA Sponsors !!! VIVA New Funding !!!VIVA CIVI !!!
P.S can I sing Now ?
ERICA
not shooting today … but trying to calibrate my printer for the second day in a row (have to get some prints out urgently). Bought the spyder3elite, which includes printer calibration and have spent hours and hours on little color squares … The test print always comes out nicely, but then when I go to my own ones … geeeeezzzz! Not good.
So doing it all over today and in a really bad mood because. Hopefully photographing again tomorrow …
Ahh dunno Akaky, wierder things have happened before and the silent ones are saying nuthin.
I grew up around the corner of Rookwood Cemetery all 90 odd hectares of it a great backyard for a kid, we used to lock up unsuspecting mates in the crypts………
MR. HARVEY,
FOCUS…This is the best question :
CAN I SING now?
P.S LLOVE YOU …LOVE FOREVER…damnit you are all funny
Jim
I didn´t know that about ethnic groups and photos at funerals and how they differ. Very interesting. hmmmmmm. i can say that doing it here you´d have thought i was trying to snatch the soul right out of the deceased´s chest. Though i have to say that wakes here provide some interesting dispalys of human behavior and it´s difficult to imagine a more interesting place for a photographer to take pictures. Filmmakers even more so. hmmmmm, again.
best
kat-
Kathleen, this was a friends this time, Latvians are sorta ok with it, some wakes can go out of control, I did a few of my extended family,I get asked I don’t plonk myself into a funeral.
Yea! answers :)
Me, hopefully will shoot a few frames for the personal project, but am shooting sushi of all things..I do hope I get to eat it afterwards..
I AM not shooting cause I am Civilian but I cut and paste:
HAPPY BIRTHDAY !!!
Imants
ohhh yeah, well that makes sense…i am sorry to hear about your friend though..
i went to a wake here. the deceased was a kid who started a new job as a roofer, smoked a joint and fell off the roof. his little gf worked for us and started screaming in the front office when she found out. went to the wake. his family didn´t like the new gf so they invited the recently defunct gf who arrived and threw herself across the coffin of her belated beau who was all dressed to kill and his hair spiked with gel and a new silver chain around his neck and all, in a flood of tears and wailing. the new gf´s family took offense and her sisters started a brawl with the deceased´s sisters and the fists were flying. meanwhile a grieving friend of the deceased threw himself into the road in front of traffic and was almost killed by the basketball team who had just finished a game on the court right outside the hall where the wake was being held. surreal.
KAT …
yeah, it is an interesting subject … and quite antagonistic. I am doing a long term project around this subject … DEATH. It is the first chapter of my “Meaning” project.
And I have to admitt that it is the first time I wondered about joining a photoagency … Why? Because of the credibility. You would not imagine how much time it takes to really get into the places I want to get into. It is a sensitive matter … and on top of it all I have to prove that I am not some kind of freak.
Well, the growing body of work really helps. And having DAH mentoring it … helps too.
:-)
i had sushi for lunch today. yum. two large saki’s as well… ummmm now yawn.
And FOR ALL of you who will be working and you can NOT
afford to be at the MAGNUM BALL to see MR.HARVEY dancing ,
here I have it :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGubN9F49k8&feature=related
LAUGH LOUD AND CLEAR !!!
P.S ANTIOS …Sorry for the shouting :)
I usually get some interesting shots, convert to bnw as I use digital, not all is sad, there is a fair amount of laughter and singing. Past midnight here so have fun catcha
ps funerals are about living
If you haven’t seen it, check out Sally Mann’s “What Remains.” Amazing project.
IMANTS
sorry to hear about your friend …
ERICA
I will have my sushi dinner today too … As a treat after todays irritating work. I think I really need an assistant. On the other hand side … An assistant probably means a lot of talking, and … this is one thing I cannot really deal with while working. I cannot even stand listening to music … makes me all nervous.
No assistent then, I guess :-)
Lassal
How do you prove you aren´t a freak? haha..just teasing you, Lassal. I can imagine you get tired of explaining and explaining. After awhile the words must sound so rote that you might actually feel you ARE covering something up. But really, how DO you talk your way into, say a morgue? That would be something to watch.
best
kat-
Off to photograph the yearly gala dinner of the American Library in Paris. It’s held once a year in a beautiful building in the center of the city.. gotta go..
Imants
“ps funerals are about living”
I see it the same way, that’s why it is my 1st chapter, and not my last.
Imants..
funerals ARE about the living..so true. Goodnight, guy..sleep well.
Jim..
i have heard you speak about that book before..it´s a must see..that´s TWO Sally Mann books i owe myself..my suitcase is already getting heavy and i don´t have anything in it.
Davin
By the way, i really like Tatiana´s essay but haven´t had the brain cells to adequately address the subject but will soonest.
take care all, i must get some work done.
best-
kat
KAT
it takes a while to talk yourself into places. And not only into places … because I get model releases from the families …
Words do not really help here. You have to show the work first. THAN you explain the concept. So the first step is the most difficult – when you do not have fitting work to show YET.
Civilian
will you sing and drink and dance the funky chicken at my funeral? I want you to promise..
love
kat-
Lassal
Oh yes, for sure..if all you have are words i can imagine that no amount of charisma and sincerity will help you cross the great divide between you and a grieving family. And i worry about how to cross the street and ask to shoot a family just strolling down the street. So, that you have gotten THIS far, grrl, congratulations..an inspiration!
i will make a cup of tea and go see your web page soon as i hang up the phone here. Good luck with your project!
hugZ
kat-
ERICA,
This morning I am checking out the AV facilities of our local Whatcom Museum of Art and History and doing a dry run-thru of my slide show with music on “Rural and Backcountry Japan” which will be presented to the public next Tuesday. In the afternoon I will start reconnoitering and shooting for a photo project on local transportation… ferries, bicycles, trains, commuter planes, etc… that I will be working on for the next week or two for the local Council of Governments.
Erica
I not at work yet, but will likely make portraits of someones family. Then later at home, I will likely make some photographs of my wife Martha. I photograph her pretty much daily. http://www.pbase.com/glafleur/martha
CMA, what’s the ‘key’ thing all about, are there really keys somewhere? ;-)
One of the things I remember most about my father’s funeral, other than my having to provide ties for damn near all of my male relations and for Pop as well (the old man got my favorite blue tie. The funeral director was supposed to take it off and give it back to me after the wake, but he never did, so now I have to wait for Mom to go before I can crack open Pop’s casket and get the tie back. Mom is eighty now and still going strong, and I’d bet dollars to doughnuts that that tie is going to cost me a fortune in dry cleaning charges once I get it back) was my youngest brother getting so emotional about Pop that he didnt want to go to the wake and another brother calling him up from the funeral home’s parking lot and announcing that he’d better grow a pair of cojones and get his ass down there pretty damn quick. He was a bit perturbed at the moment, which explains why he bellowed this into the phone at the top of his lungs in the middle of a busy street with scores of people listening in on the conversation. Pop would have been proud; that’s just the sort of thing he would’ve done.
CIVILIAN,
Sing away, dude
KAT
thanks, yeah … sometimes it is a little difficult. But as I said, it is easier now that I have work to show that explains my concept. At least until I move into another subproject. :-)
And at the end … that is what I like so much about photography: you have to be part of it in some way to make the picture. After being alone in a studio for quite a while, I enjoy it a lot. Even more so if it gets difficult. That is life, after all. You have to arrange, you have to be creative and you should now expect a second chance.
There is nothing of it on my website though. And it will not appear there for a longer period of time. There are a lot of things I have to figure out befort I put any of it online. I might even start with another chapter (online, I mean).
My website is “in betweeen” two worlds – thus not very coherent at the moment. Another think I have to sit down and take decisions. But I want to let some water run down the river first. I do not want to push it at present. It is more a question of how close I want to be to reality … and how close to theory. I have not decided yet.
AKAKY….
Civilian is a woman….
CIVI
whose birthday is it???
JOE,
I am traveling West this summer but as soon as I will be back in Greece
I will e-mail you all ( As many as I can ) with all the details.
Yes, there will be a house in Greece and if I am not here and you want to visit,
you will be notified in advance as where you can find the key!!!
I am trying to fix another small place somewhere in the rural Greece… good energy
STAY TUNED …
Sushi but no shooting for me today Erica –
Today I’m ‘smiling and dialing’ potential sponsors + researching subjects for next weeks workshop in C’ville!
VIVA LOOK3 group! – Can’t wait to see/meet/drink a beer or two with you! GINA, thank you for coordinating us – you’re worth your weight in gold!
Life, my friends, is GOOD! Be HAPPY!
BURN is celebrating !!!
the birth of a legend !!!
GINA , KERRY…
What not TO LOVE !!!!!!!
thank you
P.S Katie …love YOU forever
MR. HARVEY,
YOU ARE A SYCOFANT, sikofantis
THANK YOU for giving me a HOME and a key…I own you
“BURN is celebrating !!!
the birth of a legend !!!”
ahmmmm … that is tomorrow… IF we are talking about the same “legend” :-)
Kerry..
Gina decided it was too much to try to lock it in..and the whole experience is so amazingly organic and fluid (and in a small spot) we will be together all the time without trying. Though there is a great sushi place we must be sure to get to together..
CMA, cool, i like greece.
CMA, i’m sure you will enjoy when we meet my Loukoumades with honey. For years they were a sunday morning tradition.
Is english not your first language?
———————————–
hey Lisa, just between you and I, stop acting like an asshole. Or we say, in french (my 1sr language): comme une poufiasse. Thanks.
DAH
¨Civilian is a woman….¨
it seems to me that there are two things that Civilian craves more than anything..ok, make that 3 things.
1)acceptance
2)company
3)privacy
This is the second reference i have seen you make about Civilian´s gender. Someone else has said to me in private who they think Civilian really is. Does it really matter what the facts are that surround Civilian´s identity and life? I mean, REALLY? Civilian just wants to be Civilian. Can we all just respect that? I know you mean no harm, David. I am sure of that. But if we consider all that Civilian gives much here; the joy, the peace, the good natured ribbing, the respect, the appreciation of Burn and ALL of us, the pure unmitigated celebration of life..can´t we just respect the one little thing he or she asks for, and that´s privacy?
Lassal
I understand your need to work these issues out. i will consider that when visiting your website shortly. I am sure it is your obvious sensitivity as much as your photos that gains you access where others would fear to tread :))
best to all
kat
Mr.Harvey, I am DA WOMAN !!!
Lassal,My lady “Dracoula” FOCUS
I am singing HAPPY BIRTHDAY for few days now…in case that I will go and I miss THE DAY !!!
Katie…death and life …what NOT to LOVE !!! your wish is granted…
P.S English …hmmm…it’s my fourth language…go figure
I AM A CIVILIAN and I will miss you ALL
Herve
i love ya sweetie, but can´t you just let it be? today´s a new day :))) go shoot a celebration of something. You are really good at that.
besos
kat-
TO ALL,
The same AS KATHLEEN FONSECA :))))))))))))))))
Civilian
no, darling, you are DA CIVILIAN!
big happy hugs all around your happy somebody whoever you are
katie
P.S Katie …it wasn’t MR.HARVEY …it was TOM YOUNG …my sikofantis
Civi
¨it wasn’t MR.HARVEY …it was TOM YOUNG ¨
huh? Tom is your sycophant? como se llama? mmm..you have selected eyesight, absolutely you are dyslexic. Alright, this is what i know for sure then. You´re not a man OR a woman, you´re a, a, a, dyslexic!
gotta run like Bob Black
katie
DA CIVILIAN !!!
KATIE I LOVE YOUUUUUUUUUUUUU
BURN DAMNIT BURN THE BURN DOWN
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMZtrbtqywE&feature=related
YO babe YO !!!
CIVI
you are so right. :-)))
People always complain when they do not have alternatives.
I would love NOT to have any. Would make things easier.
Signing off for today … Sushi time!!!!!!! :-))
Arranging to shoot, Evil Kenivil’s bike that flew over the grand canyon………. weird that it is in a small seaside town in the UK
Erica: I could really use an assistant although I cannot afford one! I can’t get out and shoot on this beautiful day! Too busy scanning, processing images in Photoshop/Lightroom and making inkjet prints. I always end up with this huge backlog of work and have to spend weeks at the computer. I am looking to create more of a balance between taking pictures and working on them in the future. Otherwise it is pretty easy to burn out doing too much of one side of the photographic equation. I can’t go back to the village I shoot in in Romania without brining lots more prints for people. I always bring prints but this last time I was there in March some people started to almost get angry with me if I didn’t bring them a print of themselves!
Civilian
And you´re QUACKERS to boot!
heh..later, kiddo!
kat
Civilian
from the inimitable Alejandro Fernandez (watch it all the way through, there are several messages of affection i am sending you through this video:)
I wish I could remember where I put my house. I know it is in Greece and I am told I have my key. I can see the key in my hand even though it is not there but I seem to have lost my house which is, of course, a very strange thing and not what you would expect given that most folks lose their keys but not their house while being caught up in all the little trivialities of daily life when, if we could just stop and focus, we would lose nothing and know where everything was and where we exist in the greater overall, we would know ourselves, and best of all, we would at the very least know where our house is.
Managed to get a few frames in for the personal project :)
DAVIN / LASSAL
yes..I too long for an assistant but not without a real workspace..and my organizational methods would take so long to explain it might not make sense anyway. I too Lassal like to work just listening to the sound of the dogs sleeping and the birds chirping..
Davin..so how was the experience of the Mary Virginia Swanson meeting for you? Glad you signed up for the Webb class..sounds good.
i love ya sweetie, but can´t you just let it be?
—————————
a line and a half, that’s pretty much letting it be, by my standards, Kat, no? :-)))
I was out the door, as soon as…, and again, out of the door in one minute.
Lisa’s turn to let it be, then it’s all cool! ;-)
PS: Erica, your question, I am going downtown to shoot. It’s been a while since last time, over a year. Downtown is always a destination, never a vicinity.
I apologize in advance if this has been seen and discussed.
The following post on the PDN blog addresses a few points that have been discussed here and I thought it was interesting. Maybe DAH would like to clip this and start a new topic about it….
_____ Following from the PDN Blog ____________
Documentary Photography’s Diversity Problem
Qiana Mestrich, writing on The Dodge & Burn blog, has a post today about the lack of diversity in photojournalism. It’s worth reading.
Mestrich expands on remarks last month by Stephen Mayes, the managing director of the VII Photo Agency and the jury secretary for the World Press Photo Awards. In a May 3 lecture at the World Press awards, Mayes spoke about the patterns seen in the hundreds of thousands of images submitted for the contest. “As one juror said this year, ‘Ninety percent of the pictures are about ten percent of the word,'” Mayes said. He listed some over-covered topics, such as mental hospitals, sex workers, and problems facing black Africans. At the same time, he noted that there are huge gaps in depictions of the middle class and black culture outside Africa. Mayes said, “At the end of the day, that leaves me feeling, what is journalism, if it doesn’t inform us, if it merely repeats in the forms we already know?”
Mestrich found Mayes remarks enlightening, especially his comments on race. She adds:
“So the lesson here is clear:
1. We need more photographers of color to authentically document their communities
2. If they’re already out there working, these photographers should be encouraged to enter and qualify for such prestigious awards.”
I think this is right on and deserves more discussion. Encouraging more people of color to become photographers, and raising the profile of work shot by people covering their own communities, would go a long way to solving the sameness of work Mayes has noticed.
Easier said than done, unfortunately. One problem is that established channels of international documentary photography do not welcome outsiders. Breaking in requires years of work in a low-paying, risky profession. Getting financial and educational support depends not just on talent, but also connections and luck. Add it up and you have a field that favors well-connected people who follow the footsteps of others. It’s no wonder documentary photography has a diversity problem.
FOCUS KATIE focus
the video is not longer available !!!
TOM Y…bring mythos on your way home…2nd kilometer from the center …
DAMNIT …I want to Smooch you all
P.S I am dyslexic not STOOPID !!! ( as a Joke )
PETE,
That may be true but on first reading doesn’t make a lot of sense to me..From the way I understand the above he is saying that there is gap is in showing black middle class culture via documentary photography and not enough “photographers of color to authentically document their communities”..but why would a black middle class individual not have “connections and luck” or “not be able to “follow in the footsteps of others”? And why would they be considered outsiders or have less opportunity to get financial and educational support than their white middle class counterpart?
Over covered topics? Really? Don’t state that essays posted on Burn are over covered! I’ve been told here that they can never be over covered. You’ve got to cover them over and over and over and over so that folks will get the message!
Diversity is a huge problem, though. Just look at the skin color of most documentary photographers. I haven’t a clue how you resolve that issue, though.
I agree there is an imbalance in the diversity of PJs..just look at all the men, for starters..but it doesn’t follow in my mind that a black middle class individual would have less access to financial education support, luck or, when they were done with college / internship, fewer connections.
erica, I don’t think that is what is being said.
The lack of diversity that HE is talking about is in the photographs. Not the photographers, although that may also be true and by getting more people of color to cover their communities, you can solve both problems.
Another example may be that most hard hitting documentary work about women tends to be on prostitution, the exploitation of women (usually shown in other countries or low income situations here in the US) and all sort of other stories on horrible things that women are exposed to. AND THESE STORIES DO NEED TO BE TOLD. Where are the stories about the middle class women? The successful women? and If more women trying to break into photojournalism pursued these stories and others, The diversity in the work and the pool of photographers would change. Everyone is telling the same stories over and over is his point.
1/ The main issue mentioned by Mayes is producing a diversity in stories and getting them published. I think it doesn’t matter who does it.
2/ That he would mention “photographer of colour” is unfortunate. I guess he meant “Local photographer”, which would be more appropriate.
The colour or the origin of the person who is showing me pictures comes second to what he is showing me.
Hi Pete,
I took the first part as a given, that the same stories get the attention..I was addressing
So the lesson here is clear:
1. We need more photographers of color to authentically document their communities
I got that the first part was from him, but you made a point at the end that I was trying to connect to what he said..
but about “Where are the stories about the middle class women? The successful women?” Women aren’t shooting these so much for the same reason men don’t..visually they offer less gravy..that is why I think when they are covered they often swing to the extremes, a la Greenfield..
and quickly, cause shooting sushi calls..
What I am saying is that I don’t think the lack of diversity (people of color or women) has to do with lack of opportunity so much as other factors..using myself as an example, as far as I know, no one has ever not hired me because of my gender, and I can’t think of any opportunity lost either..
“visually they offer less gravy” I would have also said… They are more difficult to shoot.
I agree with John that the choice of wording was unfortunate, but I think he was eluding to the fact that the access would be so much easier. There would also be an emotional connection that already exists.
I agree with the opportunity part, but there is a factor of access. Just like it would be easier for a woman to do a story on prostitution than a man, I would think, and I may be wrong, but a black man could probably have better access on a story about the black community.
shooting sushi? no need, it is already dead… in most cases anyway. all you need are chopsticks and some wasabi!
wouldnt sushi already be shot, given its post-life, pre-chum status?
HEY HEY GET OFF THE SUSHI Akaky!
great minds think alike, Pete
CAN I SING again?
It’s almost his Birthday …at least …in EUROPE timezone …Hmmm
Can I ?
P.S Sushi…Do we eat sushi tonight ?I have only Kalamarakia and ouzo…shoot
Erica:
I’ve been taking pictures since the age of 10. I have always wanted to be a documentary photographer. While I studied Modern European History as an under graduate I always was studying photography on my own and took a few workshops in college out in Santa Fe and in Maine and in Prague. The advice to me was: ‘you must go do a long-term project you are passionate about’. So, in 2002-2003 I went and spent a year living with peasants inspired by the likes of Koudelka and Larry Towell. This particular group was Europe’s last in terms of the way they had kept intact age-old European farming traditions and I knew their way of life was on the brink since Romania was due to join the European Union. I sort of went to the nth degree shooting something like 800 roles of 35mm Tri-X. I didn’t have to pay my family anything so I basically just saved up and bought the film for the year. I have realized in the years since then that shooting in smaller stages would have been a better thing! I didn’t really see my work along the way except twice when I got to see some roles developed. While I have continued to visit my village and shoot new pictures, I am actually still finding hidden gems in my contact sheets from 6 years ago! One’s perspective on what is a good picture changes over time as you become less attached to the particular time and place and the memory of shooting the image and you are able to make more objective editing decisions. I am seeing that editing is key and that without the proper one, one’s project is not nearly as good as it could be! It’s about nuance and not just having a lot of the same kind of picture and it’s also about sequencing. Even though I am finding new images on my contact sheets I can hardly see through the trees to properly edit the project as a cohesive whole, hence my signing up for the Webb workshop. The reason I write all this is that, as I said, I met Swanson back in 2004 and I am still trying to make it all work! My initial project has become something I wish would end as it has taken over my life and it is all I think about! All I want is to finish it–publish a book–and then go on a vacation! The struggle to find myself photographically, edit this project and then be successful making enough money to live on is getting to be a bit much!
Davin you are right about editing. It is key to the success of the project. And it is so true that you can go back and look at a set of images months or years later and see things that you missed the first time.
Okay, won’t mention the sushi again :) not even while I sit here waiting for it to be made. :)
I think some communities are easier to gain access to, regardless of gender or race…personally race as a difference is almost never an issue as far as I can tell, but a great majority of who I photograph are of other backgrounds than myself.. a vast difference in religion or demographic can be stumbling blocks but I think that race shouldn’t get in the way of the emotional connect as a human or as a photog.. I should stop cause I an rushing and maybe being unclear.
Erica: But I never answered your question. . . Swanson is very good and looked up to by everyone in the industry. As I am sure you know: http://marketingphotos.wordpress.com/
Right Pete! And if ifyou have hundreds of roles of film on one project, it’s hard to actually put an end to the whole thing I am finding!
ERICA
“what are you photographing today? :)))))”
jut shot my family
http://www.abelequaregna.com/temp/panza.htm
(compact version ;)
making sushi? are they beating the fish to death right in front of you?
HAPPY BIRTHDAY MR. HARVEY,
from all the Civilians and BURNIANS.
Civi
It’s Friday and Joe is gonna have his usual wanderings…hmmmm…
Abele…what NOT to LOVE…Congratulations …a legend is coming soon…
P.S LOUKOUMADES on JOE
VIVA PHOTOGRAFIA !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Akakyyyyyyyy beat the octapodi :))
Erica;
Off to shoot a double indie music gig tonight (Friday here). An under 18 gig from 6.30pm til 10pm and then an over 18 gig (same venue) from 10.30 til 3.30am or 4am. I’ll then be spending the rest of the weekend shooting at the local skate park.
FORMULA ONE …in KONSTANTINOUPOLI !!!
I better travel East…oups !!!
UNIVERSE …We are sending good energy !!!
CAN I sing NOW ? before this BURNian Davin posts again… and I have NO idea what is all this about ?
I trust BURNIANS though…right Mr. Sidney…I have good faith on BURNians !
LOVE YOU ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLllll
HAPPY BIRTH DAY MR. Do As David !!!
Erica: I know what you mean about organization and the difficulty it would be handing off filing and other tasks to an assistant. I always thought that digital was sort of a nightmare for organization as it is so easy to lose track of files when you have thousands of images. But actually if you load everything into Lightroom or Aperture with metadata it is much easier to find images. With film and contact sheets you really want to label everything and put them in a labeled binder right away–which I don’t always do! Otherwise things can get crazy as I bet you know with stacks of neg and contact sheets and you wondering where a particular image is.
MR.DAVIN,
since you have so many negs ans since I am a “woman” Can I be your widow …??
( to be perceived as a joke) :))) nice website by the way
VIVA !!!
Erica: A little controversial, but a (late-term) abortion Dr… I think he is the last in the country after the shooting of Dr G. Tiller in Kansas. He is currently under the protection of two Federal Marshals after the weekend shooting.
Ian Aitken: YES! I am soo jealous! Evel Knievel’s bike in an East Anglian seaside town!! Does it get any better!!? What town!? What town!?…. Awesome!
Hey Davin! Were you referring to the Santa Fe Review in your post? Just had a friend go down… Do you think it is worth it? It’s pretty damn pricey!…
You heading to Perps again this year?
You all are shooting such interesting things..glad I asked!
I won’t say how full I am now of something I won’t mention again, but it was tasty though I think I’d go absolutely mad if I had to shoot food all the time.
DAVIN
you once put up a link to a lot of images (on LS) and I remember thinking then that I would love to make an edit for you..it is so hard to see things clearly from the inside…if you ever want input, just ask..I think I am fairly strong at editing other people’s work..
AKMA, please help, it’s raining in Georgia, I need your love down here so that I can photograph mountains, pines and hardwoods. Please don’t forget the BBQ. I want to go to Armstrong’s. Please send your love to the BBQ in Chattooga Co. GA.
Erika.
Re; editing. Where I have difficulty assessing my work is the sheer fact that by living in the Southern Hemisphere (NZ) you are so far away from the “photo world”. You end up having to be your own harshest critic, which is not a bad thing; but it would be nice to be able to bounce ideas off others on a more frequent basis.
with me it’s even more difficult because IO also live in a reasonably isolated rural area too!!
Cheers
Has anyone ever considered screen sharing between Macs to do online editing?…
Ross (or anyone) could get help from anybody, from anywhere… (as long as they both have Mac’s)
Davin, that trip you took with uninterrupted photography for a year has all the hallmarks of something special. I have always wanted to save the money and take a road trip with my camera, if nothing more than to get away from it all. I was always worried about having to process in hostels/hotels and the complications that arise from that, for example carrying chemicals and tanks etc…
How did you manage to process your film in the village? Or, did you post it back home to be processed there? And if so, were you worried about lack of quality control sending out black and white to be processed? Esp. given film shot under different lighting conditions sometimes it is better to do yourself. Anyway, a lot of the times these things sort themselves out as you go, but the logistics of processing 800 rolls of film is something that would have to be planned well.
Actually, I read that Arista has a relabelled brand of TRI-X that is a lot cheaper and is the same thing. All good news given the global economy with prices rises. I have always been a Ilford HP5 kind of guy if and when I shot film (very rarely), but am contemplating swapping to the cheap stuff like Arista for those moments when I do dabble in gelatin, esp. considering my deflated wallet. I find the convenience of digital wonderful but the aesthetics of film a treat.
Johan, do consider CN400BW. Process C-41 and you can get it pretty cheap in the US. I have mine processed and put on disk. If it really is important stuff you can always get an Imacon scan and let it rip. No D-76/T-Max mess. Love B&W, hate chemistry. Too many years of wet hands. It’s so cool to move stuff through LR. Kind of like the digital darkroom I imagined when digital first raised it’s thorny head.
Thanks Paul for those tips. I have used Kodak C-41 occasionally but I always felt that it was a little flat in terms of grain and as well as lacking the dynamic blacks and whites. Having said that I found C-41 easier to scan than traditional B@W, as you can use the ICE function to remove dust/defects. However, for a trip of that length your suggestion would probably be the way to go for convenience sake.
Also, I have always wondered, how did Robert Frank process his film that was to form his project ‘The Americans’? Did he do it along the way in hotels? I always loved the gritty texture that is so central to his work. On a different note, I did hear William Klein say in an interview on youtube that he had the majority of his film from the series in New York processed at the local lab.
Johan
James: No I wasn’t referring to Review Santa Fe in my post although I have been there twice, in 2004 and 2008. Yes, it’s pricey + the hotel, airfare, rented car! I won’t be going again but what I did get out of it was a nomination from one reviewer to submit work to be considered for the World Press Photo Masterclass. But alas this year they had 180 nominations up from an average of 130 other years and so there was some serious competition like Matt Eich and Kathryn Cook among others!
Erica: thank you for the offer! I will be looking for a studio apartment in Brooklyn I think later in the summer and we should meet up.
Johan:
Well, you have to remember that I began my project in 2002 which was still the film age before there was the RAW format. If I was going somewhere for a year now I would be going with digital cameras and a laptop. I do still like film for black and white and would rather continue shooting that way but it is so expensive when the rest of the world is all digital. I was 25 years-old and was looking for adventure and so the year living and farming amongst the peasants was a good part of the experience in addition to taking pictures. I actually didn’t develop in the village as my family had no running water! No one did then! It would have been impossible to get a steady temperature with heated water on the stove! and it would have to have been specially filtered. When I got back I then used the darkroom of my mentor friend and Yale MFA graduate(!) for three months when he went on an extended roadtrip.
What I did do is leave three times and go to Paris where my sister was living at the time and had 20-40 roles developed each time that were a sample from the total number of roles I had shot in the previous few months. Really, now in 2009 the whole experience is unrepeatable as the village has modernized a bit and all the youth now spend part art of the year working in Western Europe. In 2003 there was no mobile service fixed line service had only arrived the previous year! I actually carried a refurbished Iridium Satellite phone with me that my father insisted I have! If I had come down with Hepatitis fever or something and ended up on my death bed I at least had a way to make an emergency call. Technology has moved on so much in just a few years with wireless internet and digital photography and ipods and Facebook and Twitter etc. I somehow sensed that this was my last chance to experience traditional European rural life. It had all changed in Western Europe with the onset of the jet age in the 1960s and mass tourism. The Eastern Bloc of course preserved a way of life stuck in time. It really was the highlight of my life so far. . . hope I can another such high experience.
Johan: Also, I personally never would spend a whole year shooting so much without seeing my work as I go again. It was sort of a once in a lifetime experience where I knew if I went back to the US I wouldn’t be able to get back so soon. A few hundred roles sure, Salgado does that but more than 200-300 roles in one go gets a bit extreme. Interestingly though, I remember reading that when Koudelka first fled to the West in 1970 he ended up at David Hurn’s house with. . . 800 roles of undeveloped film. And, for many years, he would shoot 8 months straight and then develop his film back at Hurn’s in the winter. He said he was always 4-5 years behind with his darkroom work but made sure that he had the previous year’s film at least contact sheeted before he went back out in the spring so he knew what he had done and what he should do next.
NEW generation is ready for the revolution !!!
FACEBOOK editing …go figure … I am too old for that .
P.S PAUL …wait for me PAUL…I had my last kalamari and I am heading west to have BBQ …
CN400BW is cool…YOU don’t need a good energy…
YOU ARE A BURNIAN !!! BURNIANS ARE GOOD ENERGY !!! LOVE u
HAPPY BIRTHDAY
MR.HARVEY !!!
Officially your time …you know…whatever they are gonna wish just triple that.
Cheerios, asbestos,hags,
love, yours, farts, laughs
ANTIO
Hey Davin, did you submit to the EPF, I can’t recall? I think it would be a great shame if your work, of which we only know a tiny tip of the iceberg, could not find a way to be worthily published and promoted.
James; “Has anyone ever considered screen sharing between Macs to do online editing? I have a pc but it sounds interesting.
What I miss is the opportunity to sit around and chew the fat with others working in a similar field. I think the exchange of ideas would be amazing. I suppose it’s like when you hear from people who have completed art/music degrees that say they learnt more from being around other likeminded people than from their tutors.
As for film; I shoot digital for 99% of my work but an editor recently asked me for some pics and I only had them as trannies. I asked her if slides were ok, and she asked me “What are slides?”!!! Admittedly she’s a young editor but still!!!
As for long term foreign projects; the logistics are hard to overcome. I’ve decided that I will try to make 2 or 3 one-month trips per year to Timor Leste for my project and piggyback it with my magazine work at home. While I’m at home I’ll continue to shoot my youth project, which is cheap to shoot because it’s everywhere.
Mind you; if I can organise a 12 month stay in Timor I will be all over it like Homer Simpson on a doughnut!!!
Tonight I’m going to try to shoot slow synch flash work on my new Holga at one of the music gigs, so I’m a bit apprehensive about the results. Put it on “B”, hold the shutter and count “one thousand and one etc”!!! Fingers crossed!
Cheers
CIVILIAN…
thank you very much for the kind wishes….
as you well know, i will be officially giving various readers here some work to do…researchers, columnists, talent scouts etc…
however, there is no need for me to assign you anything….you are already a “columnist”…you have created your own running commentary which serves us all well…you keep things light and fun perhaps at the most critical times when things get heated among some…
a sincere thanks for being here Civilian…i so assume we will meet someday and you will let me have the last dance…
cheers, hugs, david
HERVE…
Davin is scheduled to be published soonest…
DAH: I have lots new scans! Don’t use from my website or anything!
Herve:
No I did not submit to the EPF! It had been on my list of major 2009 submissions to do but I spent the month of March lost again amongst the peasants with no internet! On 1 April, the EPF deadline, I was on a flight from Bucharest to JFK. You probably thought all my writing these past few days was out of frustration or something, right? No, no. Tatiana’s essay just fired me up.
HERVE
You make me laugh… Unfortunately I am not as patient as David so…
The only reply I can make is to simply not engage with you, this magazine or the work on show anymore.
Its a pity you seem to have such a problem with me, but as I said my only course of action is to remove myself from BURN and BURN loses a fairly loyal reader.
I would imagine this is not really what the authors at BURN would want to hear, but well I am over the stupid, snide, sanctimony of your posts in regards to me. I don’t have anything else to add.
Ciao!
Thanks for that insight Davin into your adventure. I have always yearned to do something like that, but for one reason or another have postponed. It was also interesting to read about Koudelka carrying such a large batch of exposed film from eastern europe. In a way you could say that it is perhaps more difficult to travel and shoot film now than it was 30 years ago due to possibility of repeated zaps from the X-ray machine.
I have one photographer friend who uses a trick at customs by showing the people at customs two cannisters of Ilford 3200 Delta and he would tell them that the rest of the bag of film was also this high speed film, when in actual fact it most of it was only 100@400 Neopan. More often than not this would secure a hand inspection even during a peak season.
JJ
Since it’s your Birthday I have to be nice to YOU. Goes like this:
MR.HARVEY
I understand that you are too busy to focus…I won’t even gonna pretend that I want to help you…Anyways…I am gonna travel pretty soon …I am not good with words…I get frustrated easily…
yeap…I shouldn’t…and I get very emotional…
I will be in and out …like Civilians do…A sincere thanks for being YOU
I will let you have the last dance IF you let me have the last word…
WHAT NOT TO LOVE !!!
P.S Kiss yourself ,kiss Socrates, kids,brothers, sisters,Laura, kiss the dream team …and ok enough for today…I can’t breath…open the windows
HAPPY BIRTHDAY AGAIN.
P.S a dyslexic …“columnist”. ONLY IN BURN.
You scared away my Sponsors …
CAUSE BEYOND HERE …There is nothing…with all my respect…
OUT OF HEART
DAMNIT ,
LISA …I love you forever too. Herve is just Herve. He got himself a new bike and he is Happy …that’s all.
I am gonna be away Lisa…and BURN needs you.
Can we have OUZO and talk things over…?
Davin, sometimes, people write stuff here, and we check their website, then maybe think “Ah, OK I understand…”, feeling charitable and indulgent. Others, what they write makes not one bit of difference in regards to the quality of the work they are sharing with us, and we feel grateful and inspired. Where you belong, my friend.
David, Happy Birthday! I will have one last MAGNUM video, the best, to celebrate, even as most of us can’t pop the Champagne with you on this day (I will have a beer instead).
Born the day before Europe was to start being liberated, wow!. No wonder you made something great out of the life that was given to you, and no wonder we feel your influence liberating, too! And so, if June 6th is D-day, June 5th is DAH-day!
Sycophantastically yours! :-))))))))
;-)
“hey Lisa, just between you and I, stop acting like an asshole. Or we say, in french (my 1sr language): comme une poufiasse. Thanks.”
Herve there is low life on every forum and you are our very own version of here………
It’s David’s Birthday?! Happy Birthday!!! Shoot! DAH you must have had such a romantic life with all that saturated hot light on European and south American streets. The Leica and slide film! I can hardly stand it! I am going one by one through these (copy whole url):
http://www.magnumphotos.com/Archive/C.aspx?VP=Mod_ViewBoxInsertion.ViewBoxInsertion_VPage&R=2K7O3RJT54EL&RP=Mod_ViewBox.ViewBoxThumb_VPage&CT=Album&SP=Album
Imants, prove it! or shut up.
DAH:
In case you missed it, Herve called Lisa Hogben a whore, but he did it in French. So I guess it’s all in good fun.
OIME,
Here we are again!!!
Can we keep it down …at least UNTIL I am out of here…?
CAN WE ALL DANCE and DRINK … TOURTA cake today .BURN the candles BURNIANS.
Imants , I tried the Magnum ice-cream …I AM IN AWE …!!!
WHORE …? What’s wrong with that ?
In ancient Greece it was a Good thing :)))
MY GRACIE as Leontion is one of them and SHE is the most beautiful person in the world.
KATIE as Sappho …hmmm
LET’S CELEBRATE !!!!!!!!!!!!
LET”S DANCE AS HARVEY !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
BURNINANS please, please UNITE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Can I be A poofiase TOO…Please !!!
Herve there is a job for you in telemarketing. Best part is stuff like what you wrote has a habit of coming back at you, stuff doesn’t get erased from the www dot world. That photographic grant application you may want to go for……………
And Herve,
How do you think that sort of misogynistic bullying is okay here, or anywhere? Are you drunk?
Lisa,
Don’t go anywhere please. You are one of the most valuable person here. A big family we are, there will be milions of reasons to quit, always… but many to stay also. There will be many of reasons to delate BURN’s comments part and many to keep it alive. Just stay… :)
David
Happy birthday. I hope you will have a big party tonight!
This insulting over the net thing is hard to get your head around. Im pretty sure it wouldnt happen if we were all in the same room. When you cannot see the person its very easy to read a joke as a snide, or misinterpret someones grammar. That being said i am as guilty as anyone for getting riled sometimes and there are currently two photographers online who should i meet them in the ‘real’ world i will probably break their noses….or maybe i should just buy them a beer :)
JOHN
NOTE.
Applying that to myself there are probably people lining round the block up in the online community to have a go at punching me out.
John.
HERVE,
are you really raising insults to this level?
even Panos never used his vulgarity to attack people, he did it just to escalate emotions, and he clearly got bored with that vulgar approach and he is clearly taken loads more seriously by all of us.
i’ve got to say, if what Mike says is true then i think you’ve taken a backwards step in your contribution to this budding community.
sure someone will say, ‘sticks-and-stones’, but the fact of the matter is that someone at dinner might call me an ‘arrogant jerk’, and i might wish they hadn’t said that, but i wouldn’t leave the dinner table.
if i was Lisa (and i don’t even like Lisa) and you said what Mike says you did, i would definitely be sure to get up and leave the table, if for no other reason than why subject myself to something that is so absurdly unappealing? You’d have to be a sadist with no self-respect to endure it.
so if Lisa leaves the dinner table because of something you said Herve, well it’s a sad day at the dinner table. i hope you can repair it the situation.
Gladdy, i’m in London today, ring me when you get a chance.
youre not gonna hit me are you? :))
j
won’t hit you Gladdy, but it’s your round with the Lebanese, my flight leaves at 8, back into that!
Internet forums are dysfunctional constructs unrelated to the real world. Responding seriously to personal attacks is simply a waste of good energy. Ignore the poster, don’t read his/her posts, and they are no longer there. It’s not like you are standing in the same physical room with the poster hurling insults at you at the top of his voice. He doesn’t exist, those words are just pixels on your screen.
Lisa, ignore the posts. The pixels are neutral. They have only the power you give them. Online, you don’t have to leave the forum to avoid a poster like you might feel the need to leave the room in the 3D world. Just ignore the pixels.
Jim it’s never as simple as that, it’s like saying to my wife when she says the bathwater is only lukewarm: “well Dear, don’t let the water-drops that are cold touch you and you will surely end up with the hot bath you want”
just like you sometimes Jim, Herve mix words we enjoy with words that nothing good can come out of and they are mixed as tightly as water. Filtering out pixels, as you suggest, is as absurd as filtering out molecules of cold water.
The solution seems simply to aspire to ‘not’ delivering cold empty words that nothing good will come out of rather than implementing complex pixel filtering devices to derive only the words that are worthy for community consumption.
The solution seems simply to aspire to being the kind cyber person that you would be in real life, or suffer real life consequences.
Friday Wanderings
A quick trip to London ‘almost’ let me meet the creator of this magazine:
http://www.LunaticMag.com
His name is Karl and he’s got loads of enthusiasm and is a Gem to speak with; unforntunatley we couldn’t get our diaries to line up, so will meet later this month.
On a shameless self-promotion level, i wrote an introduction for the next issue, so i might steer you back here again ;-)
BAPPY HIRTHDAY to you david..
hope all is well and all continues to be well..
looking forward to tucking back into the nursey here next week..
will try to catch you on skype.
mushy PEA’s n chips for all.
good grief.
davidx
civilian as columnist YES YES>> and bringer of levity.. love and crumpets.
YOUR KEY IS READY and the mountain enclosed harbor of bergen is ready for you… just as soon as we are there..
we have found ourselves in the north of norway.. it’s not getting dark at night.
NO DARKNESS
only LIGHT and i think that works well for our little family right now..
give me the moonlight…
da da di da daaaa
the N-gland this weekend, dalmation coast after that..
onwards..
photographed a framed photograph of our beautiful son up on the dresser in grandparents house..
little tor capa with his contemporary cousins alongside the faded and distant images of his ancestors..
3 generations under one roof right now.. more than i ever dreamt of.
and HAPPY D-DAY.. it’s the 5th of june..
Joe, you have no control over the actions of other people, only your reaction to those actions. To tell others they should change is useless.
How can you suffer “real life consequences” on an Internet forum?
……. just find that real life forum Jim and all shall be revealed
imants, I’ve been participating in online forums since the Compuserve and IRC days. You develop a perspective on all of this after almost 30 years of doing it. It’s only rock and roll.
…….. Jim it was bait and you took it……… just goes to show the old fish patrolling shallow waters gets hooked once in a while, so spit out the sinker and find me that real life forum
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZrWXQCC0QUQ
Davidb Travel safe we are sending energy…
LOVE ,LOVE , LOVE, LOVE, LOVE
BURNIANS WE CELEBRATE TODAY
MR.HARVEY’S BIRTHDAY and World Environment Day
5 June
Come on let’s be happy , let’s move forward … We deserve it !!!
ahhh.
you know.. the thing about being away from the forum and having some trouble in the ‘real’ world is returning and seeing just how this forum DOES have real consequences…
davids inspiration.. akakys humour.. joes fascination.. jims deadpan.. civilians LOVE..
it’s daft to say that these inputs do not have any influence over the day we are living on the outside.. they do..
jim – expressing experience in terms of years is irrelevant.. it’s always the same moment.. right now.. 30 years ago it was still the same moment.. right now..
anyway.. it’s far too sunny and far too busy in my head today to get involved..
pea’s, love and photography.
i got a new lens.
20 rolls of film.
sharp eyes.
and i’m not afraid to use em.
BANG DEAD
(where’s stoop?)
x
Stoop is sleeping …
Davidb where are u roght now?
up north of norway.. came here from down south via bergen.. ferries.. too many beautiful fjords.. giving beates parents some playtime until we leave for england on sunday too see friends.. then croatia early next week.. serbia.. all sorts planned.
had some recent heaviness which is passing now thank goodness..
it’s funny how a little ‘heaviness’ can make the bickering mumblings here seem insignificant..
that’s when your positivity really is having an effect in the ‘real’ world civilian..
a ‘star’ is not a famous person to me.. nor a high achiever in art or work.. it’s someone that understands relative reality and works to give ALL the smoothest of rides in life..
you are most certainly a STAR>
all is well that ends well, (and other phrases my dad would have said).
:o)
it could be a shame that we don’t know more about you civilian to wish you well with your own endeavors..
although i trust that those who do know you will take the time to care.
:o)
Your dad …is a STAR …” all is well that ends well”
I guess I will miss you so much but I promise
your family has a home in Greek land . Breath ,don’t forget to breath .
You will need it this time…
A star …hmmm…You know what happens to the stars …:))
i can’t wait to see Tor Capa holding his first camera.
Well, Don’t forget me …
The YOUNG people, the new Generation ARE S T A R S !!!
P.S Katie,my Gracie…Davidb is HEREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!
P.S DAVIDB let’s fart and laugh and eat feta…no,no feta …kalamari and loukoumades and drink tsipouro
until we see Stars:))))
FOR TOR CAPA , FOR FELIX, THE DARK KIDS, BRIGITTE, DIMA…Hmmmm…and ALLL the kids in heart
IF YOU ARE HAPPY
and BURNIANS let’s WISH the wish
~~~~~~~MR. DAVID ALAN HARVEY… from ALL of US, Civilians and BURNIANS ~~~~~~~~~~
Happy Birthday (multi-language)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGAXxiwxFZk&feature=related
RUNNING like
bobb
haha..
farts and feta.. red wine in the taverna..
WAKE UP STOOP>> a self consciously ‘intelligent’ world needs you.
Yes, a happiest birthday David..
can we all put our best foot forward here, for awhile, a little birthday gift to DAH?
Mr. Harvey, I wish you a Happy Birthday and all the best!
Lisa..
i received some great advice once. Probably the seriously most important bit of advice i ever took–and it was offered online so, Jim, so much for v/t not affecting r/t): ¨Always take the high road. Not only is it morally better, but if you have to fight it´s the best place to do it from¨. Don´t leave. Show what kind of person you are by staying. You think others down´t know? Can´t read? We ALL know! Especially us girls. Lis´, there are other and better ways to deal with this. You´re a smart girl but you have a quick trigger finger. Calm down and get very cold inside and then t-h-i-n-k.
besos y abrazos:
kathleen
Yes happy birthday mr Harvey. I am meeting up with joe later and we will toast you with haloumi and falafel.
John
David Alan Harvey
HAPPY BIRTHDAY to you, happy birthday to you. Happy birthday, dear David, happy birthday to you!
May your day be glorious, full of sunlight, happiness and love. May you whistle a tune, smile a grin, laugh a guffaw, dance a jig, drink a toast, share the love, down the hatch, damn the torpedos, go-go to the go-go, dream some new dreams and kick some major birthday butt.
firecrackers, whoppie cushions, candle power and all the rest:
kathleen
John,
please tell Joe hello for me and that i like his writing very much.
thanks
kat-
Happy Birthday David.
David and all,
I was at Debbie Fleming Caffrey’s opening last night and saw the Santa Fe crew…including Carlan who still is working away at his project without much interest from the world. He was thrilled to have been published on burn however.
Tonight is the public viewing of the Review Santa Fe portfolios. Always interesting to see the work.
Erica (also to add to Davin)
I also have taken a workshop with “Swannie” (MVS) and will probably see her tonight.
Unless you have BIG bucks and want to hire her to rep you the best thing to do is read her blog which features competitions she recommends:
http://marketingphotos.wordpress.com/
Other than that, in a nutshell she’s going to tell you about branding yourself and showing your portfolio at portfolio review events.
Mr Harvey, a very happy birthday and best wishes for many returns of the day. And now,
http://www.flickr.com/photos/akaky/3592584282/sizes/o/
a selves-portrait in honor of the great day, although I’m not exactly sure how a picture of myselves qualifies as an honor.
David,
**** Joyeux anniversaire ***** from France…
akaky
dig the hat..
That photographic grant application you may want to go for……………
——————————-
Thanks for your concern, Imants, but I think i’ll manage… :-))))
As for the tempest in a glass of water with formidable consequences, we are all human here. If someone taunts and patronizes me like I need to be put back in place, I will give them a piece of myself, even if that is not the prettiest one.
Yet, when all is said and done, I hold no grudges. Lisa should do the same.
thanx, db; it’s IRL’s hat. He has issues with the bald spot.
NOW, if you allow me, ladies and gentleman, on our friend and mentor’s Birthday, the final installement of the MAGNUM BALL saga, a knee-bending performance, just as a photographer should!!!! :-)))
Enjoy!
WOW! That was a great performance at the Magnum Ball!!! ;-)
David, you are no Pappu it seems…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lX7YTXFld40
Wish You A Very Happy Birthday David and a Long Long Life!
Continue to make us happy with your photography…
Feliz aniversário DAH!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4L1iREJcn4s
… and good luck on LOOK3!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Herve,
Great video.
ALL,
In honor of Review Santa Fe this weekend, here’s a link to the 100 photographers who were juried into the event.
Thoughts?
http://www.visitcenter.org/programs.cfm?p=Review09Photographers
Once again happy Birthday y’all..
from the rainy LA:)
Hervé, merci, j’adore la vidéo!!
Look3 crew, have a nice Festival !
1600 posting is waiting for me.
HAPPY Birthday !!!
Well, I AM A SIKOFANTIS …
Cause …Dude, you can DANCE … mamamita !!!
P.S What’s the name of the blondie again ?…phone number, PO Box …something !!!
WHAT NOT TO LOVE !!! I got to go to the BALL. I got to go to the BALL. I got to go to the BALL…
David
buon compleanno! from Italy
Happy birthday David! I spent some time looking at your photographs today. A favorite: http://www.magnumphotos.com/Archive/C.aspx?VP=Mod_ViewBox.ViewBoxZoom_VPage&VBID=2K1HZOYDOI0TB&IT=ImageZoom01&PN=24&STM=T&DTTM=Image&SP=Album&IID=2S5RYDWWTZQP&SAKL=T&SGBT=T&DT=Image
Big thank you for all your work and a big hug from Bracciano!
Simon
Also on this day, 20 years ago: http://theonlinephotographer.blogspot.com/2006/03/top-ten-number-7_21.html
happy birthday DAH …
this is from the SPACECOWBOY cause he couldn’t get a good signal… he told me to send you this
Happy Birthday Song
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xVzIGMqRznk&feature=related
Yeeeeeeeeee Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
JIM
you asked “How can you suffer “real life consequences” on an Internet forum?”
one example: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jun/17/usa.news
That’s a pretty dramatic example; I’d say a more common consequence is that people know who you are if you are using your name / are on a professional related site, and it is easy to get pegged by your writing / responses..people make judgements about who to steer clear from / or not hire based on public personas.
Happy Birthday, David!! This is a day to celebrate!
Big hug from Berlin/Norway
erica, if you are acting in a way that could get you into trouble professionally, you are a fool to use your real name.
So Jim, it’s not a question of ethics, you’re saying, it’s a question of dodging responsibility for your actions?
Happy Birthday DAVID ALAN HARVEY !!!
Wish you an easy mid-life crisis :). It happens to all ….
Cheers !!!!
http://ConversesRouges.com/
Jim, your trademark snide two line critiques do nothing more than undermine the foundations of Burn. If you want to criticize an essay in future, please make some longer solid arguments as this will help both the image of Burn in the wider internet community and more importantly the artist in question. I’m sure you have more to offer than your latest two line condescending installment. Chin up.
Thanks,
JJ
JIM
(better to use ‘one’ instead of ‘you’ in sentences like yours above, eh?)
Agreed, but still, the way a person presents online may cause “real life consequences” in that they will become notorious, infamous, or generally avoided in “real life” because they have shown themselves to be of poor character in this online version of the “real world.”
Mike, actually, it’s a matter of taking responsibility for your actions. I don’t give a moments care for stuff posted by anonymous posters. The same as I refuse (as do most editors) to publish “Letters To The Editor” from folks without the courage to sign them.
Johan, I’m not sure how to add what I posted.
“Images strung together with a “theme” that seems an afterthought expressed in “arty” language.”
That’s exactly what I thought about the essay. It seems like the photographer had a group of images, strung them together in no particular order, and then thought up an artist’s statement to try and tie them together into an essay. It didn’t work, IMHO. What else should I have said?
I guess, this is the place to just talk about anything, this BUzz thing…
I have a great respect for all the work among the finalists so far, it’s all fine… but, somehow, I hope that someone like Jukka Onela submitted and that we are going to see, well, if not his but someone of that calibre, winning this thing… I really hope.
And why…hm. I just want, I guess, to look at the photographs, and it’s ALL there, not even a need to read ‘artists statements’, it is all clear, it is all real, or not, but it is clear, photography that can stand on it’s own, or fall on it’s own… So yes, I hope Jukka Onela’s work shows up next and wins it all.
Now, I understand that whatever I said above is totally pointless and useless as a comment… But should I go back an delete waht I just wrote?
David Alan
Let me add my best wishes for the day.
I hope we can share a glass of red wine and a story one day.
Thankyou one more time for Burn. This website has been a wonderful gift to me. I hope I can reciprocate in some way some day.
As we approach geezerhood may we gain wisdom and contentment.
G. Lafleur
Thats the exactly the point Jim: what else should you have said. You have said in past comments that you do have a genuine concern for the welfare/future of Burn. In addition you are bringing 30 odd years of photography experience to the forum, so it would be beneficial if you assumed an educational role and offered advice as well. Criticism from someone as experienced as you is healthy, but some balanced words of encouragement would certainly complete the picture. The way you bluntly critique is certainly discouraging to younger photographers.
Thanks,
Johan
Velibor, no it’s not pointless, probably because I am in agreement with you. Jukka’s work, its there as work than one can access or refute as they please. Victor’s site runs in much the same vein and holds together better than the submission. These photographers tread on grounds where the mainstream does not want to go…………
Jukka´s work had the most compelling, lasting and powerful affect on me of all the essays i have seen here. His personal investment was total. That edge, that teetering on the rim of no return..such wonderful powerful stuff…thanks for reminding me..gonna go look at it again right now.
kat
……….There are a heck of a lot of people out there that want to be given the answers without questioning so a safe essay suits them, sound fair enough if one is satisfied with that.
Then there are those like Jim (“he who swims in shallow water”) who on top of being visually lazy are not interested at all but will comment for comments sake.
Kathleen, Really liked your “brutal honesty” on Victor’s essay (emphasis on honesty!). Refreshing. It sounds like you gave it some thought (something not always obvious with a lot of nay-saying) and just could not reconcile yourself to what Victor showed us.
One point you made shows how pictures can so easily be co-opted, if seen separately, which I think Victor didn’t want us to do. The polaroid in itself is for me just a guy in a walmart parking. He could be born in US, could be the owner of the black 35000$ SUV next to him, he could even be pakistanese/Hindu or indian-american, or could be just like me or anyone who got his US residency one way or another, “don’t matter now that we’re here”.
Up to us, i guess, and that could be a problem as far as it should be a little more up to Victor’s narrative.
I do agree totally in the deplorable lumping together all “CA” immigration experiences. As evening news watching, it’s understandable, but as photographers, artists, journalists or intellectuals, it should have no currency.
yup..that essay is pretty much perfection..i couldn´t ask for one more thing or one less thing..it was like music to me..nine inch nails music..so glad i went back there tonight. Thanks, Velibor for the reminder..
goodnight all
kat-
Hereve
hi! The pola pic is just super personal to me. All these guys, they go to the US and they have their pics taken in the strangest places because these places express to them what being in the US is all about. I have seen a million of these pics and i´m always struck..why take it there? That´s what they want to show the people back home. These photos are so painfully painfully uncomfortable, saturated with homesickness and a sense of being an alien, so much bravado, the smile, the stance, the clothes, the fact that the picture was taken at all. Yeah, i mean, the guy could be from anywhere, but this photo, alone, this is the genuine one of the bunch. From my perspective.
Yes, i did think a lot about this essay. This was the first essay i ever commented on here at Burn. And tonight, i sat and looked at it over and over again. I felt i couldn´t, didn´t have the intellect to express my frustration with this essay. I hopelessly failed myself but i did the best i could. I guess that´s why Jukka´s essay was a wonderful follow-up experience to Victor´s…i mean, i can feel the authenticity of Jukka´s photos..it was such a relief to me to be able to really feel that sheer authenticity.
and now, i am totally wiped out..goodnight, Herve..
kat-
Herve:
sorry..spelled your name wrong
Johan, “educator” is DAH’s gig. I’m just an old cameraslinger.
But, you’ve got the wrong guy here. I’ve gone into great length over many posts in previous essays to convey my reasoning. Which is one reason we now have the one post rule. Frustrated with not being able to change my mind, folks start reverting to ad hominem attacks.
And, criticizing someone’s posting style also doesn’t seem to me very productive. Does it to you?
I’ve looked through the link Cathy Scholl has posted earlier:
http://www.visitcenter.org/programs.cfm?p=Review09Photographers
A lot and a lot of concepts, introspective photography, things, stills and places.. is that what photography is about: the PHOTOGRAPHER vs. the PHOTOGRAPHED?
vs. should be INSTEAD of..
imants, you are suffering a form of myopia. You are posting in a forum of visually sophisticated people. People who live and sleep and breath photography. People who think about it, look at it, and produce it 24/7. That’s the world I, personally, live in. That’s as it should be. It’s what we do and what we are.
But I send my photography into a world of people for whom photography is peripheral at best. I want photography to be accessible, at least on some level, to everyone who sees it. To most people “visually lazy” has a negative connotation I don’t want to attribute. They have busy lives filled with everything but photography. You’ve got only moments to grab their attention with a photo before they have moved on to the next. You have seconds to convey your message. Even if there is a caption (or cutline in the newspaper vernacular), most will not read it. That is the reality. And these people are who I want to communicate with through photography.
So, when I look at an essay or single photo, that is how I evaluate it. I take the position of the average viewer and see how I react to it. It doesn’t take a lot of words to convey that reaction.
I’ve have many, many photo books, from David Harvey to David Bailey, Magnum Magnum to Black Star to American Farmer. Books on art history. On the philosophy of art. On many artists in most disciplines. Abstract art hangs on my walls, not pastoral scenes of furry animals. Because I have an intense interest in all of this stuff.
But, for the most part, unless we are only interested in producing for others in the incestuous “art world,” we are producing photography for viewers who don’t care about art history, or influences or symbolism or concepts. And these are the people we need to communicate with. Most of these essays, if they say anything at all, have nothing to say to the people that we want to see them (if they make it into magazines or books), either because we’ve seen the subject so many times it simply doesn’t grab us anymore, or because they are so personal we can’t comprehend their meaning, or they are filled with symbols or built with concepts we can’t understand without an MFA.
Call me shallow or visually lazy if you like. But don’t insult the folks that consume photography. They pay the bills.
Jim I never mentioned that most people were visually lazy, just people like you. This laziness is evident as you didn’t bother reading what I wrote and just went off on your own little tangent.
As the spokesperson for the “we” whoever they are enjoy taking things on face value only.
Catch Jim early start, time for a packet of zeds
State Your Taste Through Sante Fe
24 Days Left
0 choices made to date
This is just too cool of an opportunity to pass up. The Review Sante Fe 100 is a list of photography Projects. I find some of the photography bad and some of the photography amazing, but most importantly I find the scope of photography perfect to survey this community’s interests.
So here’s the idea. You simply look at the photography projects included in the link below and make two choices:
1.) Choose one project (not photographer) that you find most appealing out of the list
And, here’s where it gets interesting….
2.) Choose one project that is ‘Most’ in the spirit of work you would ‘Typically’ like.
Of course 1.) and 2.) could be the same choice, but something tells me this might not be the case.
Even if no one chooses the same project this could still be quite revealing if we can get an indicative population of choices (where the law of large numbers will kick in).
So between now and June 30th in any of the current Dialogue threads simply make a post that says:
The Sante Fe Fiasco
1.) Favourite Project: [Favourite Project Name]
2.) Favourite ‘Spirit’ of Project: [Favourite Spirit of Project Name]
And I’ll take care of all the boring tabulations.
A few other considerations:
1.) Let’s not include the photographer’s name, this is about project-taste and the ‘spirit’ of project-taste, it could slide into a popularity contest too easily otherwise, and most importantly, by sticking to the project everyone will know at least what you chose (your taste), verse some tangent line of photographer interest.
2.) Let’s not include any reasoning for our selection until after the results are posted.
Make your two choices from this list:
http://www.visitcenter.org/programs.cfm?p=Review09Photographers
Don’t be shy! Have an opinion! You’ll never have to tell us why!
Joe, interesting idea. But I’m too visually lazy to wade through all that stuff.
Jim.
I agree entirely. The trouble is the folks that used to consume photography on a daily basis are no longer doing so. That’s why photography is in such a mess at the moment with the closure of publications at an increasing rate. Unless photographers start presenting the consumers with understandable work and images in a way that’s acceptable to them (online mags such as BURN) then there is no hope. The only people that will be interested are fellow photographers and the “art world”. And that won’t pay the bills either.
The future consumers of our society want content online not in printed form, and they want to understand it at the same time.
The first thing I do when looking at one of these EPF essays is read the artist statement, then I look at the images. Most times I’m just too confused for it all to make any sense.
Maybe it’s just me….
I’d agree with you Jim, except for the navigation is really easy, at the bottom of each project’s ‘taster’ page is a ‘next photographer link, i think it would take about forty minutes to scan all the projects and another twenty minutes to choose. It’s not a competition, it’s a gut reaction! No need for analysis paralysis!
Actually Jim you might even find something you like!..
at least check out this project, each of the ‘Prairie Land’ set’s.
http://www.davejordanophotography.com/
That should make it worth your while! Let me know what you think of the images.
FOR YOU , all of you
Sweet Dreams (2007 Remix) *EXCLUSIVE*
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4IyDFGL23g&feature=related
Annie
Some of them want…
LET’S EMBRACE our Differences
Actually, Joe, I have looked at all of them. Too much concept and fine art stuff for me. I did find a couple, though, that were interesting. Jon Edwards had a bit of an essay I would like to see more of, despite the fuzzy photos (hopefully there would be more sharp ones in the extended essay) and Bryan Meltz had some interesting portraits that I would like to see more of.
Joe, I like the Prairie Land stuff. He has a bias, which shows just one side of the area, but he states the bias up front. I would buy a book of these photos if accompanied by some text telling me something about the people and situation. Something of the same format as “American Farmer,” would work well.
The Sante Fe Fiasco
1.) Favourite Project: Prairieland
2.) Favourite ‘Spirit’ of Project: Iraq | Perspectives
JOE,
I went thru the whole list of 100 and I have to agree with Jim Powers… far too much conceptual and self-consciously arty stuff. While there were a number of individual still images that I thought were quite good sprinkled thru a mountain of dreck, I only found 5 or 6 “projects” that I would ever want to look at twice… ‘Macondo’, ‘My Mother’, ‘Women in Mexico’, possibly ‘Another Side of Islam’ and ‘Transgender in India’. As a conceptual piece, I thought ‘Factory’ was kind of interesting. Otherwise, a very unrewarding and depressing way to spend an hour. Where does all this alienation and dislocation and posturing come from? Do they teach them this stuff in art school?
“Where does all this alienation and dislocation and posturing come from?”
From the world we live in maybe?
Joe,
great idea! will get to this later, probably during our daily monsoon..
You guys
I´ve been reading and thinking and reading and thinking for at least a week now about art and photography. They´ve been discreet and indiscreet bed partners since photography was invented. But what i want to say is, don´t you think that if media sources that use photography, of principal interest here of course are newspapers and magazines, are drying up doesn´t it just make sense that photographers would become more aligned with the art world where at least their work has the chance to be seen and enjoyed, if not actually purchased?
I have a friend who placed spent fireworks heads (or whatever they´re called) on a flat bed scanner, made fabulous prints, framed them and wham, has a one man show in Taos. When a friend of his who hs been an Avedon and Irving Penn assistant for years complained about her own work not having an outlet (street documentary stuff) he told her, ¨R______! Nobody wants to hang a photo of a Puerto Rican guy in a speedo at Orchard Beach (NYC) on his wall unless you´re Lee Friedlander or something¨. To wit, i replied, ¨And chances are that what they´d be hanging is the Lee Friedlander and not the guy in the speedo¨.
But this got me thinking soooo much and i have not finished yet. I have some things to work out. But Jim is fiercly cicrcling the Pj wagons and if nothing else, shooting more and more adamantly for the most common of the common man, endeavoring to make contact with his gray matter in much the same way that a sperm finds its egg. This is how adevertising copywriters write and how pop songwriters invent their hooks and Red Lobster ensnares its obese multitudes and so on. But that approach is not palatable to everyone and i can imagine some/many artistic photographers are, like water, bypassing the obstacles and seeking the most direct route to let their work flow.
And Jim, nothing against you either because you have your spot there at the weekly but the new guys who don´t, well i can see them going a different route, like Christopher Williams for example. A drastically different route.
Just thinking..
Hi Civilian..
gotta go!
kathie
Joe..
a little confused
“project-taste and the ’spirit’ of project-taste”
do you mean as actualized by the photographer, or the idea of (me) doing the project?
Kathleen, I have no interest in elitist photography. When all photographers are pimping themselves for the “art” crowd, it will (in fact has become) crowded and inaccessible, too. The economy has impacted art photography as much as it has impacted everyone. I’m well aware the venues for documentary photography that pay enough to support a photographer have pretty much dried up. But is the solution to walk into the “art” box and make derivative photography just to make a buck? That, too, will likely fail as the same economic impact on one hand, and devaluation of photography trough the sheer quantity of images on the other, makes either art or documentary photographer difficult to do as a professional.
I think the biggest question we all face is how are we going to make money doing the kind of photography we want to do. What you seem to suggest is that we instead do the kind of photography that will make money.
Erica,
I mean, pick your favourite, and then… pick one that is most like your favourite type of photography.
for example, i like voyeuristic moody photography (which there is almost none of!!!) but i like best (enjoyed most) Prairieland.
Very happy to see some of you took the time to look at the 100 Review Santa Fe photographers and are discussing them.
I was hoping this would be food for thought.
I was there “live” last night…will share some thoughts later…gotta run.
http://www.visitcenter.org/programs.cfm?p=Review09Photographers
BTW…these folks are not just out of art school.
For example Benjamin Lowy whose Iraq essay Joe liked is represented by VII (not a member but part of their extended family.)
ok, will do..though mine may be one in the same, we’ll see.
I went thru the whole list of 100 and I have to agree with Jim Powers… far too much conceptual and self-consciously arty stuff.
i can’t argue with that Sidney. I was happy with the two i chose and i absolutely love that Prairieland project (so much so i think i’ve been influenced by it already in my thoughts), but i wish i could say my choices were difficult because there were so many projects i found appealing to pick from :-(
i’m not going to take the time to count how many essays have been on Burn so far, but i suspect the scope and variety would be quite wide in comparison to the Santa Fe 100.
BTW, happy belated B-Day DAH!
prairieland is WONDERFUL…
what a visual treat this morning…
simply
delicious…
**
Cathy, a daunting list, that with PDN’s bst of the year, and Joe, I believe, giving us all these links….
BTW, If done with humour and wit, it can be of good conversation, but let’s stop the double-guessing and patronizing of others on BURN, please. Jim gets it every damned day, for crissakes! Nothing constructive comes out of it, rather the contrary.
Lisa, I am sorry I snapped back at you so violently and I wish to apologize for it. But please, realize that the tone of your reply to me that had me react that way, was totally unwarranted. Anybody can read what they want in anything, I guess, but objectively, it is hard to find any malice in my question to you. my last post to you, prior to that, had been nothing but amicable.
As much as we can, and despite the vows of constant undying friendship between people who are still for the most part total stangers, we should always remember we hardly know each other on the internet, and err on the side of misunderstanding someone instead of castigating.
Repeating myself, but reading on elitism, I still think that 20, 30 and more years from now, the ones most remembered, and discovered (not even re-discovered), will be the ones who made the best use of their eye (not their intellect, however artistically inclined it is). This is easy to see already with the few names that come acroSs as apparently conceptual artists. Crewdson, Shore, Eggleston. As times goes by, the concept fades, or rather frames, and the ‘eye” surges. A…Blinding evidence! ;-)
Barrie –
I’ve got to to disagree with this:
“That’s why photography is in such a mess at the moment with the closure of publications at an increasing rate. Unless photographers start presenting the consumers with understandable work and images in a way that’s acceptable to them (online mags such as BURN) then there is no hope.”
They don’t look anymore because most photography is boring, not because it’s not simple enough. It’s too simple!
Maturity comes with experience, in all things. “The Audience” will never mature visually if not exposed to different ways of seeing. Period. What you and Jim are arguing for is the continual dumbing-down of “The Audience.” Let’s give regular people a little credit. They are as capable of figuring out the visual language as anyone else. Jim, you’re more at fault here — talk about elitist. You talk about the books you own and the studying you’ve done — and then how you have to try and react like the common viewer. Puh-leaze. Let go of the “common-man watchdog” syndrome, do something to make the visual language move forward, not remain stagnant. They (we) will be fine without you watching out for them (us).
Mikhail Bakunin and Karl Marx fought over the same thing. Marx argued that there needed to be a vanguard, that the people weren’t ready for real freedom — not mature enough. Bakunin countered, rightly, that without real freedom, people would never have the opportunity to mature to the point that they could handle it. Catch-22, no?
Point is, you’re doing nothing for photography or for photography’s audience by trying to keep us all locked in a 1960s docu-traditon or even worse, a record-centric press-photography one.
Jared, I had a different reading of what Jim wrote. That “regular people” can apprecaite/appraise many types of photography, but just say “thanks, but no, thanks!”. As happened in a very different register with contemparary post-dodecaphonic music).
Anyway, when speaking crisis, Aren’t we confusing photography publishing business, ZE profession, and photography? There has never been so many people taking photos, and darned good ones at that, not just snapshots of the in-laws in front of the Eiffel tower (though of course, if you have 20 of them on a gallery wall, it becomes gounr-breaking “art”). So many sharing in their passion for photography, still not giving a rat’s ass about the “profession” problems (I have enough in my own, with jobs coming far between), with no fear that its demise would ever put their passion and its medium in question.
Just asking….
Jared, I’ve spent my career shooting for newspapers. There is no “dumbing down” going on. Viewers aren’t dumb, they are just not photographers or folks that consider photography in publications anything more than another way to convey information. I can tell you from years of feedback that what most people want from photography are images that clearly and quickly illustrate. They don’t want to figure out symbolism or nuance in a photo any more than they are interested in discussing the four levels of imagery in Richard the Third.
From years of feedback!! You’ve been feeding them Coco-puffs for 30-years and you’re surprised they’re asking for more Coco-puffs? You missed my point, or I didn’t make it clear enough.
I understand your point. You just don’t seem to understand the reality.
Whose reality, Jim? Your perspective seems to be strictly from a commercial photographer’s standpoint. I’ve often found a schism between making images that people “want,” and making images that are wholly my own. Isn’t that the classic conundrum of an artist?
I wonder what david thinks of this, Jared and Jim.
I mean, he worked in the Newspaper print business himself, a formative experience most likely, Natl GEO is probably not perceived, relative to its photographic content, as “dumbing down”. Nachtwey, Majoli, who else?, are regularly working for TIMES or NEWSWEEK. Surely, all the great PJ agencies flood the print market with their stock or coverage photos.
I know I can take my most sophisticated friends, writers, museum-goers, or myself 5 years ago (before I “lived” photography), ie. “unregular people”, ahhh… And there is not that much of the photographic actuality of the last 40 years, they know/I knew.
It does not seem like P. is an art or medium you really visit from the oustide looking in. it only comes to you whole, once clearly inside of it, living it, and still with many gaps and blanks to fill in after 5 years, AFAIC.
Just a thought….
The Sante Fe Fiasco
1.) Favourite Project: RSVP – The end of opulence
2.) Favourite ‘Spirit’ of Project: Transgender in India
Thank you Joe, for making me wade through those.
Crystal, if you are an independently wealthy artist, or a hobbyist photographer, then you only have to concern yourself with photos that are wholly your own. Otherwise, you have to produce photos that other people want to make their own or photos that serve some end other than self revelation. I’m just not interested in making photos where I talk to myself. The goal is to make photos that communicate clearly with others. And newspapers have been willing to pay me to do that for a long time. YMMV.
“you have to produce photos that other people want to make their own”
So does your client/audience dictate your work, or does your work dictate your clients/audience?
Herve,
Thanks for the lukewarm apology to Lisa. I do hope she returns.
Jim,
Thanks for the exposition regarding your photographic philosophy… I’m understanding why you generally keep your posts so short: you can’t go more than three sentences without contradicting yourself! Sorry, I’m just totally into, like “logic,” ya know?
Artists are elitist “pimps,” but the “biggest question we all face is how we are going to make money…” Make that make sense, would you?
There is a fellow Texan I’d like to tell you about, his name is Dave Hickey. He wrote an incendiary 64 page book a while back that pissed off just about everyone in the art world. He is no friend of exclusivity or elitism, and he brilliantly argues for radical democracy within an art world where beauty and pleasure reign. These are simple, simple concepts with far reaching implications… for him personally, the implication was a MacArthur “genius” grant.
Anyway, we are all in luck because this book, The Invisible Dragon is now back in print… and should be required reading for anyone remotely interested in contemporary visual culture… he’s also one of the best critical writers working today (you don’t have to take my word for it, do a little googling and see for yourself.)
What is interesting is that both you and Dave share this distrust of elitism and exclusivity, and argue for the simplicity and beauty of a cultural democracy (in your case, populism, right?) What _you_ aren’t getting (and he will show you) is culture doesn’t work that way…. art isn’t elitist, provincial people and institutions are.
But you know this…. as you rail against the “elites,” you yourself adopt their tactics, mainly a brittle world of absolutes and purity that must be defended constantly from defamation and devaluation. This is, I’d say, the source of your logic twisting… you aren’t defending photography, you’re defending an ideology… and look where ideologies get us.
Anyway, that’s it for a summer reading tip. Now that would make an interesting conversation here… I wonder what people would think about Dave’s ideas about Mapplethorpe’s X portfolio. Haha!!
Mike :)))
I have read Hickey, as u know……both Dragon and Air Guitar…..normally, i’d put up a link to the picture that is at the heart of the book, but then i’d really be persona non grata, so i’ll just reference it:
at the heart of the book is Mappelthorpe’s picture: “Helmut and Brooks, New York City (1978)”….and, my instinct is to post a link, i’d leave that up to others….
“There are issues worth advancing in images worth admiring; and the truth is never “plain,” nor appearances ever “sincere.” To try to make them so is to neutralize the primary, gorgeous eccentricity of imagery in Western culture since the Reformation: the fact that it cannot be trusted, that imagery is always presumed to be proposing something contestable and controversial. This is the sheer, ebullient, slithering, dangerous fun of it. No image is presumed inviolable in our dance hall of visual politics, and all images are potentially powerful.”-Hickey
“All great and beautiful work has come of first gazing without shrinking into the darkness.”-John Ruskin
mike, just a quick follow up…….Hickey, i think, one of the few (but others) who got that X Portfolio is as powerful and important as
Caravaggio…
and fucking Caravaggio sure as shit wasn’t an elitist, though his work hangs in the stale halls of elitism propagated….
the Mapplethorpe is, for sure, a modern variant on
Caravaggio…”The Incredulity of St. Thomas”
http://www.csvfblog.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/07/cat_caravaggio_01.jpg
it’s funny, the museum walkers of the world love to look at those magnificent beasts (me too) and yet accuse artists now of being ‘pimps’ (i totally was confounded by jim’s logic, as i am most of the time)….
ok, gotta ‘fly’
Bob!!
Where’ve you been? You know I read some lines like that long ago and my response was “eff this, I’m moving to Vegas!”
mike, as is surely obvious, I’m a pragmatist. And is also obvious, I have a point of view on photography and where it is going. My only ideology, as should also be apparent, is that photography should be accessible or we are just navel gazing and talking to ourselves. That we are going in the direction of obscure, self referential photography seems also obvious.
You have nothing to worry about, though. My poor words are not going to change that direction in even a small way. But it’s a windmill I’m determined to tilt with.
I LOVE THE SPIRIT OF THE DEBATES
The Sante Fe Fiasco
1.) Favourite Project: RSVP – THE BIRTH OF BURN
2.) Favourite ‘Spirit’ of Project: BURNING DEBATES
KATIE …I am watching You,MyGRACIE, ChrisB, Reimar,Thodoris,Mike,Katia, Katharina, Sophia,James,Haik,AndrewB,MikeR…etc,etc,etc…
DAVIDB,ANTON
P.S “It’s too late to be Pessimists”
“Everything is linked…nothing is self-sufficient “!!!
Thursday night i sat across the table for the first time from a person i held in high regard for a long time Eamon Lane. Since i heard of him first through flickr, the conversation drifted quickly to the reason why i left flickr.
i had no shame admitting i cared too much about pleasing the mass flickr audience and it was getting in the way of two things, figuring out ‘how’ i wanted to use photography to communicate and figuring out what i wanted to ‘say’ with my photography.
and with these three simple puzzle pieces: ‘how‘, ‘what‘, and ‘audience’ lies the entire conundrum.
Basically:
How – Some people care only about pushing a media, photography no different, to new levels and thus exploring new techniques, Even if in this effort they just say things already said or to say nothing more than here’s innovation of a technique. This attribute has never been more alive with photography as the media and it sure seems that many don’t care if anyone likes it (think strobe conventions and think pure potato-shop HDR‘s)
What – Some people care only about revealing new things, and they don’t care if they emulate the techniques of the past. There’s something out there that they need to articulate and they will use what ever technique they think best serves the yet un-made message. It’s also not certain that they care if anyone else cares about what they have to say, it’s only important that they articulate what they want to say. (think both p.j.s and think manics)
Audience – Some people only care about being understood, about being appreciated, about being desired, and about being paid. They will use what ever technique will optimise this desire and they will say anything that will best service this wish. (think… well i‘ll leave that one alone)
you can of course create a massive permutation table of possibilities from just these three combinations which would include zero consideration for any attribute and absolute consideration of any attribute.
This brings us back to why do you photograph? Who is your judge and jury? What are your intentions? How do these three attributes weigh on you?
Times have changes at quantum speeds with photography, never has it been more easy to create, never has it been more easy to match an author with an audience and never before, with this media, has audience played such a small role in the tri-attribute dynamic mentioned above.
will this loss of audience over-sight result in loads of rubbish being propagated for us to see? Of course it will. Does it take up space from more worthy offerings, No! Does it increase the propensity for customisation of a match between a willing author and a willing audience, Yes!
i think we now have a chance to have a piece of work fit exactly what float’s our boat and we now have a chance to discover someone that our work actually float’s their boat. Digital and the Web has married to spawn these massively customised unions.
that being said, it seems that there is a feeling that all photographic desires should satisfy a target audience, more so a commercial audience, almost as if to do otherwise is to squander resources. Pure Rubbish!
since the cost of making yourself available to an audience is almost nothing and the cost to be part of an audience is almost nothing, i think the influence of the audience in the tri-attribute equation is pretty much de-clawed.
So when will we stop feeling the need to condemn art we don’t like? since most of the time we didn’t pay anything to experience it!
Jim
As always, interesting points.
I think your perspective on what the general public expect a photograph to be has some truth to it. Certainly from your particular position at least. Your readership likes what it sees there and is your readership because of it.
Now perhaps the down home type folks would never buy Vanity Fair magazine or one of the more out there fashion mags, but you might be surprised.
Lately I’ve had a few surprises from my own clients. I shoot and show very traditional stuff, but I’ve also been doing some much “edgier” stuff and showing it. To my great surprise, some of my clients love it. We show what sells, but we also sell what we show. You’d be surprised at what sells.
Large portions of the general public are much more visually sophisticated than you give them credit for.
Cheers
Gordon L.
Gordon, we could only hope what you saying is so. And perhaps it is on a small scale. But ask most anyone trying to pay the bills with photography these days and he/she will beg you to tell them where those people are. The argument, on a macro scale at least, goes against the obvious.
By the way, I’ve not always lived in a small rural town. And our small county of 21,000 people is proud to have over 300 working artists and a gallery that sells their work regularly, a success rate that many did not achieve in much larger cities. We aren’t the rural backwash you might imagine.
Joe, just say what you mean without hiding behind all those words!
“Times have changes at quantum speeds with photography, never has it been more easy to create, never has it been more easy to match an author with an audience and never before, with this media, has audience played such a small role in the tri-attribute dynamic mentioned above.”
Sure it’s easier. Stick up a gallery on the web, right? You can be adored by thousands. The problem is that even if they find you, they aren’t going to give you any money to pay your bills. Like I’ve said, if you don’t need to making a living from photography, you’ve got it made with the internet.
O.K. I’m off to shoot a Powwow this evening. Don’t want to miss the grand entry. I’m really going for the Fry Bread, but nobody has to know that. ;)
Mike :)))…writing writing and shooting shooting…will unveil at the end of june….viva las vegas! :))0
the charge of Art being elitist is in fact a old and tired lament, one (ironically) foster most often by those whose hearts and minds are couched in a ring of elitist and segregating misanthropy. The truth is that all art, begins and ends, with a small truth that is in fact the same band that lights the fuse of all people: the desire to communicate, to question and to share. Whenever I hear or read the kind of tripe that comes spilling out, as it has here from time to time, about ‘navel-gazing’ or ‘elitist artists’ or ‘whores’ basketed by their own solipsistic meanderings, I wince and later laugh. For in truth, all work is born of a very simple apparatus: that to carve out from the world outside and in the questions the we hope poke at the heart of why we’re here. The work at Santa Fe is no more nor no less ‘elitist’ than the barber who cuts my son’s hair and tells him stories about immigrating from Parma after World War II. The foundation of our lives, our collective lives, comes from the need and born of the hope that telling stories will somehow arrest the darkness or at least not make so lonely the scone of that long and spreading night.
Photography like all forms of communication and expression is comprised of myriad languages and tribes and predilections and concerns. The photography that most of the commentators here seem to be drawn to comprises a very small part of the entirety of photography, no less significant and no more important or essential. Reportage, journalism, documentary work has an extraordinary place in each and every photographers life and continues to have great importance in our collective humanity. Among the way we negotiate and detail and describe and discuss our world is through documentary work. But documentary work is but a part of the equation, not the entirety of the integers. Maybe we struggle with this because of the nature, it’s essence if you will, of the photograph: a construction that essential is carved from the world seen around and most often used as a way to accomodate words and moments of history and lives. But documentary work is not the entirety of the photograph. The camera, camera obscura, was used as way for painters to create a new way of viewing the world through egg and pigment and hair-brush stroke. Camera’s were used to unwield the flora and fauna of the natural world, used as a tool to help unlock the mysteries of the fluvial cellular life of our bodies and the miasma of the cosmos. Photography too has been used as a way to explore the emotional and psychic and spiritual world both around us and the one teaming inside each and every one of us. That a photographer wishes to explore what is the “i’ inside of the ‘me’ of their lives is no less important or essential a means of rhyming out this life. Those photographers whose work is defined by ‘idea’ (in other words, ‘concept’/conceptual) are no less important to each of us, for what unites us, rather than segregates us, is our collective need for one another and one another’s story. Ironically, Jim’s position seems so often (but jim is not alone) to contradict his fundamental belief and work ethic. Newspaper work, newspaper photography, is born of that same principle: that the photographs about OTHER people’s lives and stories somehow informs us, unites us, allows us to measure our own lives through the countenance of others. This is no less true with work that is entirely opposite to those documentary photographers he reveres. Joseph Beuys speaks to me as richly and as peculiarly universal as Capa or Bresson. Stephen Shore’s road trip, in many senses, is the road trips i took as a child with my own family. Christian Boltanski’s ‘museums’ of memory and incandescent pain are as important as the images that the journalists made upon entering the camps after their liberation.
Each of us are marked and inspired and made whole by the TOTALITY of experience. I cannot imagine my own life without punk music nor without classical or jazz or electronic or folk or world or the singing my family and friends do when drunken in a bar or around a campfire or stoked on weed and post coital. I can’t imagine my life without all the literature and philosophy that swims incessant in my head but nor can i imagine a life without all the stories that friends and family and strangers have told me; the paintings and sculpture i studied and revere and my son’s paintings that hang in my dining room wall, the drawings done by psych patients i once comforted long ago, the drawings of my son’s classmates, the candy wrappers found discarded on the sidewalk. All of it, the great swelling stream of our lives. I would be filling to bed that Jim (and other’s) music collection is infinitely more varied than the arguments he makes here. My uncle played drums with Big Jack Johnson (blues) and I gave him Russian choral music. I’ll take checkov and beckett and Sesame Street cause each speaks the same language and that is about all that is still unknowing, despite are extraordinary arrogance.
My lament, from the beginning at Burn, and it goes unabated, is that still we ghettoize, still we pick apart what is ‘better’, what is the ‘true, eternal work.” A lie. I have very little patience for this kind of elitism. I am drawn to all that work, all the work, in whatever vernacular it swells, that sets the darkness rhyming. on my own bookshelf i too have harvey and frank and bresson and moriyama and abel and nachtwey and PJG but i also have ackerman and boltanski and mathew brady and mann and goldin and ruscha and sokimoto and glass and meatyard and brancurra and sherman and well, u get the point. It seems to me that those who are most elitist are those who refuse to celebrate but the things that they prescribe as being the ‘it.’ What a sad and lonely and cold way to see the world. For in the end, not one of us gets away alive, not one of us will be remembered, not one of us, years from now, decades from now, a millennium from now will have been remember for anything but the one elemental truth: we are part of the great addition and subtraction and our place is small and yielding, but without each of us, that which comes next can not be made possible.
tear away your boundaries, for those walls that you set up, in the end, reduce no one else, but your own failure to experience what is most difficult, most painful but ultimately what is most valued of this waking lives….
the living and the telling of the living of a life that falls away much too short and quickly….
running
bob b
“Beyond a wholesome discipline,
be gentle with yourself.
You are a child of the universe
no less than the trees and the stars;
you have a right to be here.
And whether or not it is clear to you,
no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should.”
Max Ehrmann
BURNIANS ,
the bar has been raised !!!
cold beer …nuts and jelly beans …hmmmmm
WHAT not TO LOVE !!!
P.S I wanna be a READER :–0)
i was shooting a wedding with a friend a year or so ago and he said something that still makes me laugh out loud.
We had promised to get a quick gallery set up for the bride and groom since loads of friends couldn’t make it and they wanted them to see the details of the day as soon as possible. So we pre-issued a URL and said the set would be up before morning. Well while sitting in a hotel conference room down-loading and editing I told Tom that the shot of the bride and groom kissing seemed a bit soft from not nailing the focus. He said without looking up from his computer, ‘convert it to black and white, then it will just be an arty shot’
That comment sits in the back of my head all the time when i look at art photography, that and stories like the emperors new clothes. I guess what i’m trying to say is that although i seek first to understand the merit and as Bob might suggest, there is no wrong answer in art, i do think every so often a fraud makes it through, or more specifically some weak or flawed photography just gets called arty ;0)
EUROPE IS VOTING !
And BURN is the winner!!!
P.S MR.HARVEY , are we gonna hit 2000 posts because the column is getting too heavy …
I am kinda NOT that young and my muscles are slowly BURNing away…Columnist …hihi
like Colonmist..blame the beer …hihi
Response needed in the next 72 hours…
P.S VIVA ! Only Love and photography can make US “complete” …
BOBB you were waiting at the corner…
You got me on this one ( the shortest) LOVE …
Bob,
Very briefly:
I agree…
Thank you Sir VINK !
Keep notes BOBB …
very briefly …
Audience can visualize …hmmm…or no ?
Tonight we are drinking Cold beer…it’s hot damn it …open the windows
thankyou Bobblack.
AKMA, beer for everyone. We can all visualize better with hops! Ask all Burnians to stop what they are doing and thinking and drinking and break out a beer. It will make them kinder and they will soon what to make music!
Saturday, Saaaaaturday, Saturday, Saaaaaturday… etc etc etc
PAUL where are you mate?
Colorado … I own you BBQ !
I am running
T WILL BE BACK or BACH
Oh I just realized that some folks may be offended by the devil brew, so may I suggest that you take a nice icy Cokecola and drop some salted peanuts in. It’s an ol’ time Georgia tonic. Now we can all party like it’s Saturday nite. Time to make music. Let’s talk pictures in the morning…
Paul
I have not heard about peanuts in a coke for a long time! That is the best.
I bet Jim has bookshelves you’d be proud of, with many of the names you evoked. Believe me, if we did not think exactly like you, we’d never tag along here on RT/BURN for so long, Jim too. Obviously, what is being expressed more than often, here, are personalities, not opinions. No?
PS: I also think J Vink should edit your texts! :-)))))))
Oops, that was for BobB….
Herve, I would never try to compete with the Bard of Burn.
Yes, thank you Bob Black. Glad I got to shake your hand in Toronto! :)
Bob
Looky There.. Paragraphs… I knew you could… still could use a few more.
Oh and about what you had to say…. EXACTLY!
Cold beers aplenty tonight in C’ville with fellow shooters and Burn folk! Beautiful town, beautiful crowd, beautiful life! As our much loved Civ would say … WHAT NOT TO LOVE! ;)
Bard of Burn.
——————
I had been wondering what B O B really meant…. thanks Jim! :-))))
Bard of Burn – that is epic. B o B.
Bob – ya hear ? :)
i’ll be back – this is too much fun here.
****BARD :
In medieval Gaelic and British culture (Ireland, Scotland and Wales), a bard was a professional poet, paid by a monarch to praise the sovereign’s activities.
ALL THE ABOVE COMMENTS TO BE PERCEIVED AS JOKES.
and now back to our regular program.
P.S Can I sing Now ? hiiiicc…UPS
THANK YOU ALL…without YOU and YOU and YOU there would be no ME. Together…hiii..cc..UPs
ALL….
i have just read some very interesting comments by many…good discussion….a never ending one of course, but surely at the heart of understanding….
it really does come down to frame of reference….nobody seems “wrong” in this dialogue…
yes, yes i am way behind in setting up a new post here for Dialogue…i am going to be so crazy busy for the next five days here at Look3 that i just cannot be around much…on the other hand, there will be so much to report to you at the end….
please carry on….back soonest….
cheers, david
Jim,
Where was the powwow? Which tribes were there? I just spent my honeymoon in New Mexico, Arizona, and sw Colorado. Visited the Acoma, Zuni, and Navajo villages. Ate lots of fry bread…You gotta be careful with that stuff..:-) It can clog arteries :-)
David, it was at the Alabama-Coushatta reservation, which is about 15 miles from me here in East Texas. Tribes from all over the country there. Two full days of activity, but I usually do the second night where the best dancing is going on. There are always a lot of people there, both participants and onlookers.
DEAR MR.HARVEY,
We are sending you Good energy some more EUROS cause it’s the time to pay the rent and ALL of our LOVE…
BURNIANS will carry on …cause there is no right or wrong …BUT only Love…hmmm
P.S Mr.Bacher congratulations. Clog arteries…NO problem I am Greek :))))))
CAN I GO NOW ???
White Feather, Navajo Medicine Man
“All birds, even those of the same species are not alike, and it is the same with animals as with human beings.
The reason Wakantanka does not make two birds, or two animals, or humans exactly alike is because each is placed here by Wakantanka to be an independent individuality and to rely on its self.”
Shooter Teton Sioux
CAN I GO NOW ???
I’ve read a couple of articles that blame the obesity and many of the health problems of Native Americans on Fry Bread. It’s apparently pretty bad stuff. But, once a year, I’ve gotta have it! ;)
TO ALL,
Cherokee Morning Song (A beautiful Native American song)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1VqoxOcEqpk&feature=related
peace
JOE
The Sante Fe Fiasco
1.) Favourite Project: Commercial Portraits
2.) Favourite ‘Spirit’ of Project: Iraq | Perspectives
I have to say that though I have oft heard of the Review I’ve never read the guidelines till now..I don’t really grasp what one gets out of this review over others, say the powerhouse review. The santa Fe one had over 500 submissions for about 80 spots (the other 20 go to award winners), and it costs $700 if you are one of the chosen. I’d love to hear from anyone who has participated why this Review creates such a draw..not knocking it, I just want to know why I should submit next year. I see I have a couple of friends who did this this year, so will ask them too..I was sad I missed their Project Competition deadline this year, so that is on my calendar for next..
DAH..indeed
KEEP CALM AND CARRY ON
An absolute MUST SEE, in my mind..such and education, even if you only shoot in the still medium..watch here online..
http://beta.sling.com/video/show/161410/48/Capturing-Reality:-The-Art-of-Docum
Capturing Reality: The Art of Documentary
A landmark feature-length documentary; forty filmmakers fourteen countries one passion.
Jim and David B,
Powwows are the best. I’ve been shooting them for a while now…have several coming up this summer.
Trying to make up for the fact that my husband used to own a Trading Post in Zuni and I never was able to take advantage of his years of knowing the entire tribe to do some shooting there! He sold it years ago…but Zuni is where we met.
Erica, thank you, it’s wonderful … watching right now.
Cathy,
Do you live in NM? Do you shoot for a newspaper? My wife and I stopped by the various trading posts in Zuni and stopped by the local supermarket with a little fast food joint in the back. I have to say that many of the trading posts were selling fake stuff. In Santa Fe they’ve even organized a group of shops that sell real Indian pottery, jewelry, etc.
Bob Black,
i really enjoyed reading both what you said and how you said it with Marco’s work. Although it was clear you brought with you your wisdom to your assessment, it was more clear you left at home both you and those demonic writing habits.
i think it’s the first time i’ve read what you said three times because i enjoyed it and it made me rethink my own views, verses three times to parse it and decrypt it. Good Stuff Bob, i look forward to more of those tempered, efficient, critical, and efficient offerings.
-Joe
Cathy, here’s a snap from the Powwow yesterday if you’re interested.
http://www.39thframe.com/Powwow_5.jpg
DEAR BURN magazine,
I had to transfer a new BURNIAN from the ETF column…
Sorry for the initiative…hmmm…
bruno dosca
June 7, 2009 at 5:08 am
First of all thanks to DAH for his generosity of making burn and EPF.
All that follows is just my opinion but I have to say that or I haven’t the slightest idea of photography, or somebody has chosen the finalists using a scale that says the more unpleasant the better. For me this last essay (American Dreams) is the straw that broke the camels back. In the world there is more than misery, squalor and sordidness. In news photography we already have the problem of considering that “only bad news are news”.
This grant was for every stile of photography and by now I see it was only for “conceptual” (whatever this word means: strange? incomprehensible? ugly?). What happens with documentary photography? I’m sure that between the over 1200 essays submitted to EPF there is people that have make wonderful efforts trying to show something unknown about a place or about people.
Between the eight finalists I have already seen there are only two that I like: “Aftermath” and “Sakhalin”. Many of the rest are still acceptable, but not good enough to be finalists between 1200 essays! Is really this all the best we have?
And I see many people here trying to look smart by attributing overwhelming depth to something that is just superficial.
I said before that may be is that I haven’t the slightest idea of photography, in that case I would be grateful if somebody tried to explain it to me.
Thanks.
“And I see many people here trying to look smart by attributing overwhelming depth to something that is just superficial.”
Exactly.
“I said before that may be is that I haven’t the slightest idea of photography, in that case I would be grateful if somebody tried to explain it to me.”
Exactly.
If you have to have someone explain the photo to you, it has probably missed its mark.
Adrian:
“As a Central American I think of these essay as an intelectual insult for people who live here.”
Thank you..i agree completely. Well said!!!!!!!!
best:
kat~
“If you have to have someone explain the photo to you, it has probably missed its mark.”
did this one missed it?
Wouldnt you read the story around it?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tank_Man
The photo has power even if you don’t know the circumstances. Of course, I saw it on TV as it unfolded back in 1989, so know the story.
Joe, TomY, KATIE, Panos, Jim…
OimE !!! WHAT not to LOVE !!!
Jim, Civi…
i think Marco is doing ( did here at least and on his website ) great work..
visually at least.. Aesthetics..
Really, what not to love..
i agree with Marcin..:)
Slightly too bright for my own good, but love the colors bursting out that shot, Jim. Did you take it?
Bruno, wrong or right, it’s good to hear from your side of things. Most people who look at pictures, know nothing about photographY, (maybe that is what Jim was trying to say, from an editor’s POV yesterday), yet can look at a photo, even take one (sacrilege!!!!). Good enough for me. When the medium has as many centuries behind it as does painting, writing, scultpture, architecture, etc…, maybe we can make demands on people to make an educated effort and “don’t talk if you don’t know” stuff.
It is fine to celebrate 95% of what comes on BURN, and that it is gripping to the point its’ hard to breathe (but not to…write :-))) ) and how can you not see the light, blahblah…. But its’ cool to also see things as they are, life as it is, and photography as photos, some you like, some you don’t. Nothing reducing in that, there are plenty of good photos to like out there, anyway.
My GRACIE …KAT is here …come over …ASAP
DavidB come on your presence is required …ASAP
our Patricia …I know You are LOOKing busy
Katharina …the shy one …
Wendy …the smiling One …
Reimar…give me a report is my mill ready?
Mr.Sidney…I am a “READER”…
MikeR…more stories of your DAD…
Audrey …I miss you and my Family …
Charles Peterson…how is my Felix
Lassal…more blood or no?
Mike berube… you rock
AndrewB …kisses to your wife
Theodoris …I vote for better world …sure…
Laura… you deserve it !!!
Haik… don’t try to psychoanalyze me…no more :)
Akaky …bring your IRL …i miss that troll
BOBBlack YOU DA MAN
ANTON I LOVE YOU …you are my strength …!!!
I am gonna bring AND MORE …MORE…I am in AWE..you are so many, many, many,many
more…
I LOVE YOU AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
Can I go now?
Herve, yeah, I shot it. Yeah, it’s probably too bright in the jpeg version. Tends to happen with “Save for Web” in Photoshop 4. I usually tweak levels to compensate. Must have missed that one.
“I said before that may be is that I haven’t the slightest idea of photography, in that case I would be grateful if somebody tried to explain it to me.”
This shouldn’t need to happen ! It’s the people who don’t have the slightest idea of photography that will enable the professional photographers to pay their bills and put food on the table. Of course those that don’t need to earn a living from photography will continue to produce incomprehensible work that needs explaining to the uneducated masses.
DAVID B.
Yes, I live in Santa Fe. I don’t shoot for a newspaper.
What do you mean they are selling “fake stuff?” That is illegal, especially in Zuni. Stabilized turquoise from China which has been infused with plastic is often used in cheap jewelry but the dealer should be honest about it.
Did you go into Turquoise Village in Zuni? My husband’s ex-partner Greg still owns it.
They sell the raw materials (silver, turquoise, etc) to the tribe and then buy back and distribute the finished goods throughout the world.
There should not be anything sold in Santa Fe that is NOT real…unless the consumer is told so.
The attorney general goes after anyone who is misleading the public about Indian made items.
More than “fake” items the big problem is with phony 50% off sales. The government has been trying to get rid of those for years, with pretty good success. Also many of the Native Americans selling jewelry on the Plaza act as though they have made the items but they are just selling store bought merchandise. Not illegal but misleading.
Hope you had a nice time in NM. :))
JIM.
Lovely! Makes me want to be there.
Thanks.
jim –
“save for web” in photoshop 4? the Big Electric Cat?
Yes we had a wonderful time in NM Cathy. It’s a beautiful place and spiritual in a good sense.
I can’t remember the exact shops that we went to in Zuni but I remember one in particular that seemed very dodgy compared to the others. It was a gallery in Durango, Colorado (where I purchased a handwoven Navajo rug) that warned me about the fake items sold in Santa Fe. I did get the impression that the prices of many items were not consistent….Acoma pots for example.
Hope to be back in Santa Fe again…
Just back from watching the film “Home” by Yann Arthus-Bertrand. It is a big success in France. Has it gained a lot of publicity in the U.S. and other parts of the world??
You can watch it on the web…http://www.home-2009.com
good night all.
While talking about native Americans; Here’s something I found the other day, and if you’ve ever seen some of the UN’s strategies it might provide a bit of a laugh for the day….
Tribal wisdoms of the Dakota Indians, passed on from generation to generation, say that ‘when you discover that you are riding a dead horse, the best strategy is to dismount’. However, in the UN and a range of other organisations a range of far more advanced strategies are often employed, such as:
Changing riders;
Appointing a committee to study the horse;
Arranging to visit other countries to see how others ride dead horses;
Lowering the standards so that dead horses can be included;
Reclassifying the dead horse as ‘living impaired’;
Hiring outside contractors to ride the dead horse;
Harnessing several dead horses together to increase the speed;
Providing additional funding and/or training to increase the dead horse’s performance;
Doing a productivity study to see if lighter riders would improve the dead horse’s performance;
Declaring that as the dead horse does not have to be fed, it is less costly, carries lower overhead, and therefore contributes substantially more to the mission of the organization than do some other horses;
Rewriting the expected performance requirements for all horses;
Preparing a workshop with paid attendants on the subject of experience gained in riding dead horses in post war settings;
Preparing a second workshop on environmental hazards caused by horse sh*t, and the advantage on using dead horses which are therefore of no hazard to the environment.
Cheers!!!
CIVI?
Haik… don’t try to psychoanalyze me…no more :)
… now i am the local therapist. wonderful.
Viva Finals … biting my nails and rocking restlessly in descriptive of certain mental illness until we get to penalty shootouts.
Ross. :))
David B.
Come back to Santa Fe anytime…but looking at your (very nice) website makes me want to go back to France immediately!
“IT IS TOO LATE TO BE A PESSIMIST ”
You are ALL finalists in the eyes of the ” MASS AUDIENCE”
especially after 6 rounds of the “crazy water”…oups…
Viva damnit …you are LOOK3ing all so beautiful tonight !!!
A proposition: if we consider ourselves as part of a community here (even if there are so many disagrements), so why not help each other by giving each other a couch. If someone of us here wants to travel to another country to make pictures, and has not much money, he could tell it here. And then another person here maybe says he is living in that country and has a couch..
In that way we help each other on a practical level and for sure there will be some nice discussions, learning from each other, etc.
MAGROLL,
What not TO LOVE !!!
BURNIANS …
Maqroll;
I’ve talked to quite a few people who have used the couchsurfing website, and they all raved about it. http://www.couchsurfing.org
Or another option, you provide some labour for bed and board. http://www.wwoof.org You’d be amazed how many organic farms there are around the world!!
oups…dyslexic me
MAQROLL…THANK YOU !
Herve, I don’t have the video Johnson yet. If there was a great honest way to get that same TriX grit to it in it’s own way I’d give it notice. No plug-in; just the raw stuff and I think it would rock. That’s what makes Marco’s stuff so cool. He just needs so ground time to figure it all out– just like the rest of these EPF cats.
I don’t know. I thought the EPF was intended to enable excellent photographers to complete a project, not to learn their craft. Surely the intent isn’t to fund photographers with only bits and pieces of a beginning, but rather realized projects that just need completing. Many of the selections, though, seem to indicate David was more interested in the former than the latter.
Not just with Marcos’s essay, but I can’t help being totally flabbergasted by the 180degree stretch between opinions, that has never been so flagrant than when commenting on the finalists, and therefore David’s choices.
And not just opinions on the essay, the vision, the style, but if the pictures are good or bad too.
I think we really (dis)invest a lot of ourselves, looking at pictures, in a way where even the stance of the photographer is hardly of any concern, only our own subjectivity is.
I have no idea if such discrepancy between afficionados, cognoscenti (what’s the lifetime limit on this one, Jim?) is found in other arts/mediums. I doubt it.
Sure, some say their kid can draw like Picasso (yet, never does it!), but I don’t mean idiotic opinions.
Anyway, this is fascinating.
who could have expected this???unfortunately it seems that…uhh….some of our strongest supporters from road trip days are…mahhh…drowning burn on in its sister site…uhhh flickr…so here is the second reincarnation of flickrjustice:
bryan formhals wrote: DAH is yoda and everyone else are the younglings. and we all know what happened to the poor little younglings.
eric neufurth: but surely what not some visitors expected.
dr karanka: i saw a few slides and sequencing is still amateurish. still room for improvement, but remember it is a new idea.
james dodd: panos you are in idiot, you don’t know how to edit.
krameroneill: its the breathless self-promotion of mediums that said promoters don’t seem to really understand.
viridari: yes, the site does suck.
alan smithee: your putting out the love for burn simply because you think DAH will further your career.
ben roberts: maybe i’m a bit cynical, but shouldn’t you actually have an interesting body of work to be in the top ten candidates.
fhss: how the hell was she chosen? she totally failed in her stated aim; having said that the comments are mostly negative…maybe burn isn’t such a love-in anymore?
the whole thing is an outrage, just like an aged pedant telling you how to word a simple sentence…it would be hoped that such photographers will try…ahhh…to remain loyal to both camps…burn and flickr are married in a defacto relationship…panos has improved his language from his childish roadtrip days…can’t you improve as well??i hope that things over there at flickr improve for the better…internet rivalry gone wrong…please mature people!!!
Herve;
“I can’t help being totally flabbergasted by the 180degree stretch between opinions” I think that happens in every walk of life not only the art community. The world is made up of individuals all with differing opinions, that’s why we have elections! :-)
There’s also a case where people’s likes and dislikes change too. What you may not have liked once, you may like in a few years time as your knowledge grows or you become more accepting of different styles.
Many of the people commenting are working photographers or at the very least, are absolutely passionate about their photography. They all come to a subject from different points of views and styles.
Sure you’ll probably get some people who spend more time sitting in front of their computers talking about photography rather than actually being out there and doing it, but that’s just the nature of internet forums. At least when people put their web links up etc, you can guage the value of their comments by their own work.
Davin;
It’s funny that you mention Sylvia Plachy because I’ve just “discovered” her, and all I can say is WOW! Yet like I mentioned in my last post, I don’t think I would have “got” her work a few years back.
Take Martin Parr for example, I was underwhelmed by his colour work when I first saw it (quite a few years ago), but now I enjoy a great deal of it. In other words, my tastes have changed.
When I was doing nature photography I used to upset a lot of people when I said that I never liked Ansel Adams work (yet I like Eliot Porter’s work), yet loved (& still do) Freeman Patterson’s work. Patterson’s work has always seemed more personal than Adam’s (to me) sterile landscapes. Again, different strokes….
Cheers
Ross:
“At least when people put their web links up etc, you can guage the value of their comments by their own work.”
Not necessarily true. There are those with an excellent critical eye/ear who are terrible artists, musicians, actors, etc.
best
kat~
Kathleen;
You’re right, that came out a little harsher on the screen than how I meant it; e.g. many editors aren’t photographers!! But on an internet forum it does give you some insight.
Ross:
I posted this clip the other night, but here it is again if you haven’t seen it. Sylvia Plachy comes in about half way through. Some of the advice from the other interviews is aimed at amateurs but do listen to Sylvia! As a photographer who shoots with widelux and Xpan panoramic cameras in addition to normal 35mm cameras, I am always on the look out for others who use panoramics, especially the widelux! I have long admired Plachy’s work and her widelux images. Also, she’s Hungarian and I am forever on the hunt for images shot in East Europe. Koudelka shoots with a Fuji 6×17 as well as the Xpan, but I have never seen him shoot with a widelux. I’d love to see any if he ever did. I think the inherent distortion of the rotating lens is not to his liking. He needs the formal exactness of a 6×17.
Ross:
Woops! Here’s the clip:
http://community.ovationtv.com/_Close-Up-Photographers-at-Work-Outtakes/video/178583/16878.html
Davin;
I’ve just began shooting with a standard Holga and have decided to try a wide-angle pinhole Holga for my youth project, mostly for gigs and the skate park. should be interesting… One thing I want to be careful of is not letting the technique/process overpower the subject. I don’t want the process to scream “Look at me” i want it to enhance it.
Davin
Not sure what camera he uses but surely you know Boris Mikhailov’s work..
http://www.galeriaff.infocentrum.com/mikhailov.html
Ross:
No problema..and you’re right. Someone’s work does indeed provide insight into their critical expression. Thank God one doesn’t hinge on the other however.
Goodnight all..
GOODNIGHT MY QUERIDO CIVILIAN..goodnight Gracie
kat~
Ross: well right, you don’t want a particular camera to become a gimmick, but it won’t if your photos are really strong.
Kathleen:
There is a Russian version of the Japanese widelux and Mikhailov’s images were probably taken with it. His shots look just like widelux photos. Many photographers have experimented with the widelux, Susan Meiselas comes to mind, but few use it regularly. Larry Towell does although he’s been using an Xpan as of late. Plachy and Teru seem to use it all the time.
Oh and Balazs Gardi of VII Network uses it all the time and I’ve seen Kadir van Lohuizen of Noor use it too.
Davin,
If you’re not familiar with the panoramic work of Turkish photog, Nuri Bilge, check out
his site at http://www.nuribilgeceylan.com/photography/turkeycinemascope1.php?sid=1
Mark!
I have seen Nuri’s work somewhere but had totally forgotten. Many thanks!
Davin:
You mean the Horizon? I have a Horizon 202. Inexpensive camera. Fun too, but…..a strong statement. And you have to have a scanner and film holder to handle the negs unless you use a flat bed but the scans just don’t measure up to a dedicated negative scanner. i still prefer 35mm or MF 6×6.
kat~
Mark:
In looking through Nuri’s masterful work again I was reminded of the Finish photographer Pentti Sammallahti. Nuri seems to be doing a bit of Sammallahti but in color with some (it seems) nice reduction of color in some of the faces via Photoshop. Yikes! Nuri has some nice work!
http://www.candacedwan.com/#New_York/Exhibitions/Pentti_Sammallahti
Kathleen:
Right the Horizon! Yes, the rotating lens panoramics can get gimmicky, but the more you use them the better one can refine the ‘look’ I find. Scanning panoramic negs was a major problem until I found a used Imacon on e-bay for a major bargain.
Davin
Yes, i’m sure that, as Nuri has done, the more you use a panoramic camera the more it becomes your way of seeing. His work clearly expresses his mastery of that format. There’s a little bit too much post-processing on Nuri’s stuff. I like Mikhailov’s gritty story-telling through his use of the panoramic. I really feel like i’m there in the scene and i appreciate all the context that format provides. With Nuri i feel i am looking at a photo. Big difference.
Well, good night..Davin, maybe you have inspired me to have a bit of a fling with my Horizon sometime soon. Maybe sometime real soon.
Take care..nice chatting :)
kat~
Davin
a last question..
do you shoot with a rotating lens camera? And if you do, do you crop the distorted top and bottom of the photo? I heard Mikhailov did that and looking at Nuri’s straight edges..is he using the Hasselblad XPan or the Fuji617 that doesn’t distort? Sorry if you mentioned this further back and i missed it.
kat
And one other: Jens Olof Lasthein has done great work in color with a widelux around the Black Sea. Scroll down to ‘White Sea Black Sea I-III’: http://www.lasthein.se/
Kathleen: I shoot with both a Widelux F8 and a Hasselbald X-pan. I never crop my widelux images, but it is possible to get a perfectly not distorted shot if you tilt (or don’t tilt) the camera the correct way. Sometimes though the distortion is unavoidable. I am not sure about Nuri as his panoramics have varying aspect ratios. He obviously is doing some cropping. Some images look to have originated from a rotating lens camera while some look to have come from an X-pan/Fuji.
Yes, Nuri’s images are bit over processed for my liking too. But he is a filmmaker first apparently and this desire dor perfection has carried over to his still imagery it seems. Lasthein is someone who has done very well with the widelux, really nailing down his use of the format.
Davin
Thanks..i’m cross-eyed with fatigue right now so will look at that link in the morning..thanks for the discussion..i remember the distortion was very limiting in the use of the Horizon..holding the camera just so got on my nerves, seemed to keep me from shooting my subjects the way i wanted. I just gave up. There is a Fuji617 for sale here second hand. I was very tempted at one point because of the lack of distortion but being 120 film, the negs have to be so enormous it seemed very daunting. Just decided no. I am very interested in spending time on your website and also Lasthein. I think the panorama is a very beautiful format in the right hands (certainly not mine :))
now, really..goodnight ..
kat~
Davin
i fought off sleep for a few clicks around Lasthein’s site..glad i did..He’s amazing!!! THANK YOU..i will be back and back and back..and yes, he nails his format. WOW!!!
kat
Cathy,
Feel free to let me know the next time you come to Paris. Would be happy to show you some non-touristy cafes. I’m happy to hear you like my website. Yes. Paris is a wonderful place for street photography.
Take care.
David
“I can’t help being totally flabbergasted by the 180degree stretch between opinions” I think that happens in every walk of life not only the art community. The world is made up of individuals all with differing opinions, that’s why we have elections! :-)
————————————————-
Well, Ross, you left a bit of what my point was. It was not that people differ, I would not bother if that was all I meant, we know that. But that they disqualify the work altogether, as having no value, period, be it the essay, the vision and also many times, the quality of the photo. Like saying the architect is clueless about architecture, could not make a building stand because one does not like his designs.
Elections? I spoke of arts only.
Nuri’s work is beautiful, thanks Mark, and BTW, you’ve got some dynamite shots and superb photography thru-out, on your website as well.
“well right, you don’t want a particular camera to become a gimmick”
The Holga is a self professed gimmick. The ultimate attempt to look different by employing a toy with light leaks and a trashy “lens.” The ultimate celebration of bad photography. You (generic you) can’t even blame the trashed photos on the camera because you know the camera is junk before you use it.
(Get the idea I hate Holgas?)
Jim,
I am gonna miss you…
Reconsider ,please…” hate” word ?
I hate to say that …But In BURN we LOVE and Shoot…
SAME AS KATIE :))) lv
Where is BODO and JAN and …hm…!!!
I am gonna go pretty soon… but if you LOOK3 closely I will be NEXT to you !!!
LOVE and BURNians and Civilians and Sponsors …let’s hug together and CELEBRATE…
cause it’s too late to be pessimists …
VIVA !!! Holgas on YOU tonight …can I say THAT …hm…
to ALL,
Bob Dylan- Beyond Here Lies Nothin’ (Together Through PHOTOGRAFIA )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vz9OtKbBABc
Yeap …
MARK TOMALTY,
Thank you so much for the link to Nuri Bilge’s panoramic work. I had never seen his pictures before, and I love them! I have often felt that the pano format is a more ‘natural’ way of viewing the world (I have very wide peripheral vision). Nuri handles this better than almost anyone else I’ve seen. His winter shots of Istanbul, the streets and the waterfront, are quite magical.
Damn, I thought I was the only one who didnt like the Holga. It’s nice to know that I am no longer alone, that there are others whose response to Holgamania and all its works is, huh?
Hmmmm…go figure …and I thought Holga is a Drink
CAN I GO now ?
Jim
ahhh, what would a morning be like without checking in and discovering yet one more thing that Jim can´t stand, doesn´t like, doesn´t normally like but maybe just this once he likes it, hates, despises, can´t tolerate, sees no value in or reason for, can´t abide, is fed up with, has no patience for, can´t appreciate, doesn´t understand, doesn´t want to understand, has no use for, thinks is rediculous/not up to DAH-Burn standards, is impatient with/cynical about, just doesn´t get, isn´t what he does, isn´t what he would ever do, has no room for, feels is unworthy for publishing/viewing/any serious consideration whatsoever, not Pj enough, will never sell, will not change anything, doesn´t speak to the average Joe, is too arty/fuzzy/blurry/narcissistic/voyeuristic/pointless/meaningless/bad.
*looooong luxurious stretch*…
yep, it´s another morning at Burn Magazine!
Good morning, Jim!
Hellloooo Civilian!!!
hugZ all around:
kat-
Kat, if i call you right now can i hear what it sounds like for you to actually say that Oscar award winning delivery?
If so, send your number to jncolligan at yahoo dot com , that is if you’ve got the testicular fortitude to say it in person!
Well, Kathleen, at least it’s not the same, “This is the finest photography I’ve ever seen and it has changed my life forever.” Although, I must say, there is far less of that kind of stuff now…a change for the better. ;)
BIG smile this morning
KAT…
laughing…
yep,
another morning at BuRN…
xox
**
JIM
I agree that unvarying extremes of the pendulum are tedious, but enmity has the odious dimensions of petulance.
Interesting discussion on “alternate” cameras.
Despite the fact that I suggested to Marco that he put aside his Holga for awhile, I do have a fascination with toy and antique cameras and shot quite extensivly with them about thirty years ago. I still have three or four of the original Dianas each has a different personality. I recently sawed the lens off of one and glued it to a canon adaptor so I could mount it on my 1ds.
Kathleen, I never got along with my Horizont, but I did shoot a bunch of stuff with a Kodak panoram #1, which was a panoramic box camera with a swinging single element lens. It took 120 film, 4 shots to a roll. I’ll see if I can dig out some prints to scan onto my gallery site.
I love Nuri’s stuff.
While it is fun to play with the toy and antique cameras, I’ve stopped using them for the most part. I don’t really have the time, and it seems when I did get a shot I liked, it really would have been better had I shot it with a regular camera.
erica, you have now used up the entire Burn allotment of big words for June.
if we could only allow the closing hours on your mind to be put on a budget Jim, now that’s a store that would be in much healthier condition!
“…I agree that unvarying extremes of the pendulum are tedious, but enmity has the odious dimensions of petulance…”
thank god..At last, someone found Akaky’s lost dictionary…:))))))))
Nuri is a filmamker by the way (first 3 films are brilliant, i havent seen the new flick 5 monkeys)…Distant is what made him well known……he studied photography in university, but is now, primarily, a filmamaker….
all the best
b
Is that you BobB?
…hmmm…
it looks like Mr.Vink’s word worked out Fine… afterall
( Please ,to be perceived as a joke)
“…I agree that unvarying extremes of the pendulum are tedious, but enmity has the odious dimensions of petulance…”
I am speechless…hmmm…
Anyways, WHAT NOT TO LOVE !!!
Sometimes enmity has the odious dimensions of flatulence, too.
Sorry, just had to get that in before Akaky did.
NURI Ruled the might! (and so did Yan Arthus-Bertrand, in France!, euro elections: greens 16%!!!)
David, can you make Nuri an EPF judge next year! Please….. It’s just I am just starting to get scared…How many judges from New York…. How many know how to MISspell Olga :-))))…… How many go to Monaco only because nearby is the great little Matisse Chapel in Vence, and think 400Euros is better spent vaccinating a whole village in Nepal than on Chanpagne with the russian mafia…. How many……
Everybody, all together:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ced8o50G9kg
The xpan is a blinder of a camera, optics,mechanics all round, lovely feel in your hand, small but weighty.
erica, you have now used up the entire Burn allotment of big words for June.
—————————–
Damned you, Erica! Now we only have serendipity for a full month….. Not fair! :-))))))
i used xpan for 6 years but sold it recently. kind of got fed up of the format.
there’s some stuff here though..
http://benrobertsphotography.com/gallery/images/a_sense_of_place
A nice selection of 6x17s:
http://www.magnumphotos.com/Archive/C.aspx?VP=Mod_ViewBoxInsertion.ViewBoxInsertion_VPage&R=2TYRYD1KSV9X&RP=Mod_ViewBox.ViewBoxThumb_VPage&CT=Album&SP=Album
and Holga images:
http://www.magnumphotos.com/Archive/C.aspx?VP=Mod_ViewBoxInsertion.ViewBoxInsertion_VPage&R=2K7O3RHKIU5K&RP=Mod_ViewBox.ViewBoxThumb_VPage&CT=Album&SP=Album
COME ON BURNIANS… Let’s BURN the place down !!!
Look I am wearing my silver pan on my head and I am facing west.
Come on now there is no time …
Let’s start the party !!! debates, hugs, bugs, love- festings , back stabbings ,
let’s have fun and don’t forget to laugh…LAUGH like there is no tomorrow
LAUGH loud and clear, LAUGH like you are babies…for those with dentures( like myself)
I will recommend smiling…only smiling
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/yt-D6iNxLir0bw/the_funniest_baby_belly_laugh_ever/
The recent ascent of lomography and its affiliated practices has been accompanied by a small, recalcitrant cadre of discontents intent on the devaluation of the signifiers of this contemporary practice; exempli gratia, the optical imprecision of meniscus lens and the aleatory nature of the tools themselves.
The pervasive ludic quality exhibited in the respective oeuvres of the devotees of the genre, the apparent attempts at Buchlovian deskilling, and their necessary embrace of a radical contingency point to a playful and fully realized critique of the high modernist myth of formal and moral virtue embodied within so-called artisanal competence.
The stance that examples of the genre illustrate the self-reflexive, as opposed to self-referential, nature of quotidian forms of a particular photographic vernacular, is in a relationship of direct opposition to the notion of deprecating such work, in an attempt to deny the use-value of ritual, as simply undue visual attention afforded one’s own umbilicus.
what do you mean by “…necessary embrace…”?
;-)
Once the quota of big words for a specific month has been reached, any use of such words are billed to the poster at the rate of $1 per word. We accept Visa, Mastercard, American Express or Discover.
Look at that, there’s tithing here at the First Sesquipedalian Church, the Reverend D.A. Harvey, pastor. And all of God’s children said, Amen!
Jim
I always thought those were described as “two dollar words” there must be a sale on.
Gordon, it’s another of those Burn Blue Light Specials.
For our European audience that would be :
1 USD = 0.719512 EUR per word
** todays rate . VIVA !!!
Jim,
How’s this for a deal? If you can replace any words in my 3:27 post with shorter ones, and still retain the meaning (very important) I’ll donate a dollar to Burn for each one. (Not editing for length, either… just a word-for-word replacement. Exchange “big” words for “small” ones…)
Sound like fun?
Herve;
“Elections? I spoke of arts only”; there was a smiley after those “election words”, just a way of saying everyone sees things differently.
Jim;
I dislike many Holga images too, but also think there is a justified use of one for different applications. I don’t like the “I’ll point my Holga at something random, take a photo and call it art” scenario, but I’m not talking about that either.
But if a Holga is a gimmick, then so must be a wide-anle or tele lens, panoramic etc because neither views the world as we actually see it. We use them for their ability to render it differently as to how we see it.
Akaky;
I suppose the difference between using a Holga (as a legitimate tool, & not being one of the “Lomography trendy’s”) and a digi is the equivalent of reading one of your long essays compared to a newspaper article :- ) I don’t mean that as a criticism because I really enjoy your words, but isn’t diversity a wonderful thing?
Cheers
“talking about music is like dancing about architecture” – frank Zappa
Well John and all Burnians to honor Look3 and the lookers here’s a little musical treat http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9wWlSZdQYk
AKMA, you can go now… only if you’ll dance.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMH0bHeiRNg&feature=related
is this good…?
I can do better
Joe:
¨Kat, if i call you right now can i hear what it sounds like for you to actually say that Oscar award winning delivery¨
hahahaha…
Jim:
What i think would be a riot is if you write one with all the descriptives that the rest of us use that turn YOU off…really, it´d be a very very funny flipside to the Jim coin.
Mike:
wow..you blew my socks right off and i wasn´t even wearing any..shiiiiiiit!
Wendy:
smile and the whole world smiles with you..and we do, smile with you!
best to all and to all a goodnight!
kat-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMH0bHeiRNg&feature=related
is this good…?
Civilian
You have never been speechless in your life, you liar :))
don´t go, not sooner not later, but if you must go then be sure to come back sooner rather than later. And if you must come back later, make up for it by staying longer. You know you are my best friend here.
Besos y besos y besos..
katie/sappho
oups ! IT’s the same …
LOVE YOU ALLLLLLLLLLLLLL,
LOVE YOU ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL,
p.S Kat I LOVE YOU TOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
KAT…I know where you live …( joke)
LOVE …see you soon
Morning and I am running like …BB
Hi Kat;
It’s been pretty quiet here today. What have you been shooting? Or to echo Erica’s question the other day, what has everybody been shooting today?
I’ve been stuck behind the laptop writing, so no shooting today…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5P6UU6m3cqk&feature=related
HAHAHAHA
man, while i was watching the evolution of dance, you were fancy footing your way outta here, Civilian..well! have a great day over there in the sunny isles..
kiss
kat
Civilianbabe
i know you know where i live. That´s why i don´t try pulling no wool over your eyes..you see into every corner here at Burn..there´s no hiding from your prying eyes. You know, but you keep our secrets. That´s why you DA CIVILIAN!
kat
:)
the same as street fighter …
KATIE,
oups, I can’t go yet…
I have to see number 10 … I have to find the right song and then dance and blah…
I can’t go yet… and you all know what that means …?
COME ON BURN … shoot …
Let’s start laughing …Now…maybe you need some motivation
WHO KNOWS…hmmm…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jG5rQ3D_Zrw&feature=related
LOVE YOU FOREVERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
look 3 iS ALMOST HERE:
The Beatles – Hello Goodbye
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qf2S7kKLtEQ
I will see you all pretty soon. Keep it up, keep it rolling, keep it buzzing
CAUSE I ‘ll be backkkkkkkkkkk
Ha!!!
I’m not even going to watch the most recent essay, I don’t need to.
i’m just going to savour the hypocrisy of Bob Block for a while.
He’s now done exactly what he begs, pleads, preaches, for us not to do and is thus incessantly (add loads of over the top words here) tormented by our lack of feeling for all things that he understands as ‘life and living’.
So is it possible that someone can have as extensive of a background as you Bob, and think so deeply with both your heart and your mind and still feel that an Author has produced disappointing work?
Finally, you’ve proven this can be the case and more so, felony material by your own standards, it’s now ok to suggest a photographer to be the mule for the story you want them to deliver!
Awesome, I will always remember this day! Remember it as a doggie paddle throught his flood of hypocrisy!
Joe:
first, your comment is both obnoxious and catty. to begin with, my comment was strickly about the essay as given/presented and has nothing to do with my judgment of Carl as a photographer: he’s a talented, keen young photgrapher and his work shows that. I have always been honest in my appraisal, particularly here under the EPF. I have NEVER said that all work should be ‘liked’ or countenanced, but that work should be openly read and measured on it’s own terms. The problem with this essay, and with the russian essay and the last essay is that they posit for the viewer a certain intimate knowing, visually (and in the statements) set up a particular ‘story’ or ‘command’ for the viewer and that, playing by those roles, fail to offer us something. Carl is a talented and visually keen observer, but when one spends 3 years with a project attenmpting to show the life of a family, i hunger to see and know more. As i said, i have a close friend from e.kentucky (ironically an artist too, though not a photographer) and while the pictures as shown are certainly strong visual photos, they provide us nothing more than what is the typical expectation for these condistions and this place.
I have gone on the record i dont know how many times with my disappointment about work, about Burn about EPF about other authors, including my own work. I imainge you hadn’t followed everything i’ve written about my own work, but when David sets up a system of ‘the best of the best’, there is added responsiblity. I have also never criticized, under the EPF, another commentator for not liking work, but for the language that they used, for example “pointless”.
you can remember this day joe for all i care less….
to call me an hypocrite is the same type of behavior that has led me to have nothing but sadness for Burn and commentators. David told me on the phone that i didnt have ‘tough skin’ because i was upset about the ‘condescending’ comment…well, he was wrong and you are just as insenstivie to act like question character…..as i told david, there is a difference between having tough skin and be demeaned….
y’all can have fun in your hyped-up bravura, testose-ripped world….ya’ll desreve each other…
haved fun in your new burn duties….
you’ll do well to behave like this toward folk….
This latest essay is one among many where the photographer hasn’t taken the time – or perhaps didn’t have the interest – to do the hard work of research before pushing the shutter button on the camera. You cannot shoot meaningfully what you don’t understand, and I think a lot of photographers these days just don’t want to do what they consider the boring stuff. They want to shoot, not do research. But it’s essential for this kind of work.
Poverty in general, and rural poverty in particular, is an incredibly complex issue.
Easy Bob Black, no need to go all Manic and get Mercurial again.
i’m just relieved that you are in fact human and oh so fallible.
i found living up to your expectation of how we should be more open minded and that we should never impose our wishes on the author’s writings, well, a bit too difficult to live up to.
i think your response to the last essay shows that you have as many ‘personal prisms’ [read: baggage] as the rest of us and you too lose your objectivity, so all in all, it’s comforting to see you act the way you did with that comment on that last essay.
although i still think it’s a bit hypocritical based on your recent band-standing, guess what!!!! Being a bit hypocritical is just a human as humans having baggage Bob! We’re all from time to time a bit guilty of it. ;-)
BOB…
i am so sorry to watch you go through so much turmoil and as i read you , i see you quite literally having a conversation with yourself…i might have missed something, but as i skim your posts, you have taken yourself on a journey of being in and out and out and in and….well, i just can’t keep up …none of it having anything to do with what i have actually said to you or written….
two weeks ago i ONLY said the title of Editor at Large was confusing some people…i did not want to change your involvement or belittle your status or diss you in any way…i consider you to be absolutely the very best person here to help find talents we might miss….
one little glitch….i would like to point out that when i read you say that “out of all the work submitted to the EPF” as if you had seen all the work submitted…as far as i know, the only work you could possibly have seen submitted was Marina’s and your own….
i will try to call you this afternoon …however, can we please make a personal phone call personal??
many thanks….
JIM…
just a quick reminder that all of the finalists have submitted “works in progress”…the whole point is that they are not finished and need finishing….i agree with what you say about photographers needing to totally be educated on the subjects they photograph….
cheers, david
It has been interesting to follow this whole selection!
‘the best of the best’
Was that really the goal, or what could BECOME, if not the best, something worth to be explored more in depth than it is now? In this light it would make more sense, to me.
Joe, your comments may have been in jest to Bob, but the internet is a strange place and comments can easily be misunderstood.
There also seems to be a bit of jostling for position here in the pecking order of Burn, is this not about the images?
We need civillian, peace to all
david:
my failing. maybe it was how i worded my comment to Carl which seemed out of character, and i did think about it on the subway flying to school. what i feel particularly frustrated by is the personalization of comments, but i imagine that was up to me to displace. same too with the comment about ‘best of the best’, and that should have been reserved. the best thing to do is not to comment share my reactions, because, as with each of us, it’s a entirely personal aspect and it’s clear that the web allows for personalization, both good and ill. maybe something this morning fed me the wrong way and im trying to understand your choices, but that’s my problem, not yours nor the finalists, that’s my entire hang out. the difference is that, unfortunately, i shared my reaction. as for the thick skin comment, im sorry, and i do not share with others what we talk about (expect with M)…maybe im just tired. it really is time i take a long haitus from all this….i hope you and Marc P can touch base…
in the meantime, its best if i just go away for awhile…i will not comment on the last finalist so as to avoid any more unfortunate spirals….
Just a comment to Oz, if he is reading over here. Whatever you feel about the few photos I have on line, for the sake of other posters, note that you don’t even have to be a photographer to post about the essays or over here. I happen to be a photographer, but many of the best photo editors are, in fact, not photographers.
My point is that it’s just irrelevant for the purposes of posting here whether you are a good photographer, a bad photographer or not a photographer at all.
But just to brag a bit, I picked up this weekend in the Southeast Texas Press Club’s Excellence in Journalism annual contest a First Place News Photo award.
Sorry Ian, you’re wrong, it’s not always about the images, Burn is just as much about the community and the relationships.
There is loads of healthy activity that we don’t see going on outside of the walls of Burn entirely because of the interaction that is taking place inside these walls. It’s about as close to speed-dating as you can get with regards to linking up with the kind of people you want to have extended conversations and meet-ups with.
As far as Bob, call it Tough Love, but I think you will find evidence of feedback in both directions towards Bob from me and very recently.
The sad reality is the Bob has some of the best things to share, but typically goes unread because he cloaks it in things that cause us to ‘switch off’. I’ve got a funny feeling Bob would like to be as influential as a communicator as he can be.
Since people have teased Bob about this for ages I’m not alone, I’m just bold enough give bold feedback. If the roles were reversed, I suspect I would just have said thank you!
Now how could I not consider Ian that you are doing the same for me and that I owe you a Thank You? Well I’ll just have to think about that a little bit longer, but I have considered it! ;-)
BTW, when Herve finds out that Bob abused his editorial authority to rework is comment to avoid the one comment rule Herve is going to have a COW!!
“Every person has the power to make others happy.
Some do it simply by entering a room —
others by leaving the room.
Some individuals leave trails of gloom;
others, trails of joy.
Some leave trails of hate and bitterness;
others, trails of love and harmony
Some leave trails of cynicism and pessimism;
others trails of faith and optimism.
Some leave trails of criticism and resignation;
others trails of gratitude and hope.
What kind of trails do you leave?”
William Arthur Ward quotes (American dedicated scholar, author, editor, teacher)
P.S ALL of YOU , yes, all of YOU are special .
Ian, whiskey definitely on me.
VIVA, VIVA, VIVA
BURNIANS ,
JUST UNITE !!!
Hi Joe,
there is nothing wrong in the fact that words can be misunderstood in cyberspace, many spats have occured on this forum due to this, including one in which one of the posters on this site directly attacked me due to a misunderstanding about a post I made.
Agreed there is a huge amount of extra curricular activity revolving around Burn, even you in your hyper- perceptivity (if there is such a word) didn’t even get the jesting in my comment about it just being about the image. It was a thinly veiled call for calm, a faux exasperation.
Now where is that COW
Pathetic!
You know, if you want to debate Bob’s ideas with him, I’m sure he would enjoy that. But, all of these ad hominem attacks (sometimes thinly disguised as something else) are unwarranted. And attempts at subtle humor are guaranteed to fail on the Internet. Other than the decor, this isn’t a corner bar.
going against my own instincts to not get involved, but here I go..Joe, Bob, I have seen grace and goodness flow from both of you in such powerful ways that it actually pains me to read the above. you both have been incredibly kind and helpful to me, I know you both to be good men..Joe, It bothers me to think of you as someone who wished to savour another’s hypocrisy..that you delight in seeing Bob as more human and accessible is fine in my eyes, but that you seem to revel in his weaknesses is not. I want to be able to continue to admire you…Bob..the internet isn’t your best home, you know this, it will never allow you to give and receive what you need, but I see no problem in what you wrote about the essay..you like all should be able to express your position..but there are lessons that you do not need to learn over and over.
Let’s just be clear: I don’t apologise, regret, or wish to reword anything I’ve said, nor was any of it delivered with any increase in heart rate.
I suppose that’s the only thing I can provide as a response to an indication of some disappointment with what I’ve said.
That being said, the audacity of Jim giving out advice on how to play nice with the rest of the kids does make me giggle a bit. What was that juvenile word you authored here when you thought ‘you’ were in the face of audacity Jim? Oh yeah this is it: ‘Whatever’ Thanks Jim that fits well here as well, mere conincidence? i don’t think so :-)
Cheers Ian.
Ross, diversity is a wonderful thing, no two ways about it, and if the Holga works for (generic) you, then by all means use it. It’s just that, like rap, ballet, and feline orthodontics, the magic of Holga seems to go right by me, leaving me to wonder what all the fuss is about. All a question of tast, I suppose.
No, it’s not, it’s a question of taste.
Well, it’s a question, anyway.
JOE, seems I too misunderstood your tone..I should stay out of these things.
Joe, have I attacked anyone personally here?
The other thing I find funny is that I made one post under the latest essay talking directly to the essay, and folks still find it necessary to take potshots at me personally over there. ;)
There you go, David. I’m not the instigator.
almost in flames…
still you don’t feel the heat….
takes all you got,
just to stay on your feet….
fire…
fire on the mountain…
GD
** hope everyone smiles BIG within…… **
xox
Jim, i don’t mean to give you advice, you’re getting really old for this, but i’m sure this will make sense to you as it’s in the spirit of your already expounded 40 years of forum wisdom: playing some kind of social worker on an internet forum is time wasted. It’s an effort as silly as your lesson on how we should not treat our interactions here as ‘real’ as it’s just ‘rock-n-roll’, remember this Jim? You do amuse me, so please continue; you’ve found a new topic to stir with and it’s me! i’m flattered. :-) more please
Joe, I asked a simple question. You chose not to answer it. That’s cool.
A skill i learned form you Jim, you owe me about twenty answers!
“The other thing I find funny is that I made one post under the latest essay talking directly to the essay, and folks still find it necessary to take potshots at me personally over there” – Jim Powers
It’s too bad really, i liked your post over there Jim, it made me realise what i liked about the essay and what made me feel a bit sheepish about it.
jumpin´jiminy you guys..TAKE IT TO THE WOODSHED!!!
besos y abrazos to Civlian and Wendy!
kat-
… sigh … I had such great hopes that people could rise above in this space, to set aside their own mental models, or at least see them for what they were, and reach higher. Of course, I had this hope for humanity as well, despite constant disappointment, and still do … but this all makes me feel … old. The NEED for power, to be “right,” to be “best,” is one of humanity’s greatest strengths, and greatest weaknesses, and as simple and raw and instinctual as a child’s need for love but not nearly as innocent. Is this the twist in the loss? To blindly attack, and especially to respond in kind with neither understanding nor the attempt for empathy, without any sense of humility or humanity, is so … blind … and bitterly ironic given the context. It is also quite booring. Are you so unhappy, or unsatisfied with your life, or your lot in it? Then perhaps it is time to change it, no excuses … may I suggest a camera. Tumbleweeds optional.
TAKE IT TO THE WOODSHED!!!TAKE IT TO THE WOODSHED!!!TAKE IT TO THE WOODSHED!!!TAKE IT TO THE WOODSHED!!!
memories from faded childhood playgrounds…..FIGHT!.FIGHT!.FIGHT!.FIGHT!
Smell of alpha piss in the wind.
Are we still so small?
To my knowledge I have ‘met’, physically ,two of you. I cannot square the online persona with the reality of the flesh. This mirror distorts.
Agree, disagree, argue, gush, love, but if anyone feels that they no longer can participate on a forum like this because of any of that then it says something about ALL OF US.
Ideologically and aesthetically I camp on the far side of the hill to a lot of people here(and just about everyone i know out there), but my place here is dependent on them, and you, because thats how i learn.
John
I was going to do a top ten list of logical fallacies seen here on burn, which I see as a root cause of so many problems here (hint: ad hominem argument is a logical fallacy, but there are many more)… illustrated with direct quotes from the archives. While this sounds like a great way to amuse myself, I have other fish to fry today and I simply don’t have the time…
Instead, here’s a link to a well known list of principles, some food for thought: A Code of Conduct for Effective Rational Discussion. Basic teenager-level logic and ethics… and what’s the average age of the squabblers?
http://www.tinyurl.com/68gcjg
Read it and tell me… can you do it? Could you argue within the limits of this code?
Didn’t think so.
No offense mike, but that last post puts you across as a self-important, intellectual snob.
Is there some critical thinking that can prove me wrong there?
Since i don’t suspect you are, where’s the logic in trying on the clothes?
Mike, since there is really no objective way to evaluate photos or essays, it’s all opinion. You can certainly approach opinion in a civil way, but many of the points in your link just don’t apply to opinion.
All of these finalists are DAH’s opinion of what is good. As is clear, lots of folks disagree. And discussion over the different opinions is great as long as folks don’t start personally attacking other posters.
I’m sure this whole Burn experience has been an eye-opener for David.
“I’m sure this whole Burn experience has been an eye-opener for David.
Jim,
Would you think that was a pretty short-sighted sentence if you knew that David’s seen this cycle in far more rabid conditions back when it was Roadtrips?
Would you still think this was a ‘eye-opener’ for David?
watch watch out there’s a stoop about…………. fantastic
“Jim,
Would you think that was a pretty short-sighted sentence if you knew that David’s seen this cycle in far more rabid conditions back when it was Roadtrips?”
Laughing… i agree…
:))))))))))))
But Roadtrips didn’t need to attract money.
but it still did.
i suppose that’s a real eye-opener for you Jim, No?
Jim,
it wasnt about money then, its not about money now either…
Its a little help distributed to lots of people… its also an
outlet, to post work open to everyone…. and talk freely…
just grew , evolved, a little polish here and there … but still
the “same” ideals…
1) FREE ONLINE WORKSHOP for people like u and me that cant afford it….
2) couple bucks here and there for the ones that really “need” it…
3) open outlet for u & me to post freely our latest work ( what other publication or magazine u know u can jump right in and “Surprise” the world with your stunning or bad work???? )…
Nowhere…
so,
same old core system of beliefs i see……
( money…. what money.????????)
laughing…. money…!!!!!!!!?
@Panos: Word.
WTF , WTF, WTF, WTF,IS WRONG WITH YOU BURNIANS…wtf …
This is my colon and it doesn’t look good …damnit…
OK, NOW back to the regular program !!!
I LOVE YOU ALL..
PEACE, LOVE and PHILOSOPHOTOGRAFIA !!!
Thank you for embracing your differences in such high spirit …hmmm…
Let’s blame the moon, yeap, the moon …:)))
Ahhhh…. do you smell that??? yessss… I love the smell of short-sighted Jim first thing in the morning!
AFRICAN Public Poet
I HATE GOODBYES
In memory of Ruqayya
I hate goodbyes, for long goodbyes
Are painful and they hurt
They take away from one
A pint of his blood or pound of his flesh
For it takes a part of ones being away
I hate goodbyes they make me weak and meek
They detach me from someone so dear
And turn the other’s existence into memory
In the hard disk of our busy brains
A goodbye may be for a while
But even if it is ephemeral
I hate short goodbyes, they too
Hurt and are painful
But a long goodbye is too hard
To bear but a must to endure
Yet sometimes in life we must say
A long goodbye sometimes too soon
The longest goodbyes are inevitable
Each one of the mortals gets
A long goodbye and gives one!
At a time appointed to get and give it.
LOVE YOU BURNIANS
P.S KATIE forever yours…
Panos, you are still talking about Roadtrips. Burn aspires to be something very different.
Interesting Jim, can you point me to the reference for that sweeping statement?
LOOK for me , look at me , I am next to you,
I can see you , you behave good…you are all amazing, amazing people
I am gonna wear a silver pan on my head, I am gonna face west and I am gonna wear converses…
DEAR MR. DAVID ALAN HARVEY,
THANK YOU.
and I am exiting like a Civilian :
Time To Say Goodbye Andrea Bocelli and Sarah Brightman.flv
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QbN0g8-zbdY
I WILL BE BACK
:..Jim Powers
June 9, 2009 at 12:46 pm
But Roadtrips didn’t need to attract money…”
so Jim is that the major difference ?… “Moneys”…?
CIVI
“I WILL BE BACK”
… actually sounds more like Schwarzenegger … :)))
Travel safe.
Be back.
i mean i still don’g get it… the words “money” & “aspire to be different”..
sounds like sold the soul to the….
cmon..:)
the only difference i see from Roadtrips is that now the photogs posted here..
are asked to work “harder”..”faster” in a more pro way…
before ( and i still do ) i used to post links anytime i wanted… but now its
more “real”…you talk with David, skype.. whatever… u get an evaluation…
see whats missing.. going back to the field… improve… blah blah…. pressure…
like a real WORKSHOP………..NOW its just more fun because we see constant essays
and single photos…….
and again you can always “hijack” BUZZ and give us your latest “breaking news”……
Amazing..plus the audience got tripled and im sure some here will look good
by the end of the “day”…
Its a long haul……. gentlemen
David’s plans, as he has expressed them, for Burn and the gallery will be expensive. He has to attract sponsorship. I think there is a disconnect. We’re not in Kansas anymore.
Panos, i was thinking the same thing about road trips, but the difference was there was not a Jim running a “why it can’t work campaign” with each thread, if he was there back then maybe there would be no Burn, luckily now there is enough forward momentum to look over the snag-hooks he’s dragging behind the boat.
You know, it seems to me that a lot of people here have entirely too much time on their hands.
Actually Jim could care less about the stuff we’re arguing about, Jim only cares about crashing Burn with the typical antagonize-all campaign. Just like the one he’s running right now that we should just be ignoring, i think i will get back to the ignoring Jim as long as Jim’s going to get back to the antagonize campaign again. Why do we take the bait.
AKAKY, that’s really relative to the stuff you care about, No?
i know this is separate from what’s being discussed here but i didn’t realize that karl kiilsgaard, finalist number 10 got the pdn annual 2009 student award!
True, but I’m not going to spend any time worrying about it ;-)
“…You know, it seems to me that a lot of people here have entirely too much time on their hands…”
well Akaky… its the unemployment that tripled the audience here….
the bad economy we inherited …
:)))))))
Well Akaky, no one ever said you weren’t a little bit wiser than the rest of us, so leave us little rug-rats alone to argue over who’s piece of dryer lint this really is! ;-)
@Joe: word… :)))
@Jim: congratulations for your award u just received…
what was it again… the Texan award of photojournalism? or something?
can u link me with your winning photo or essay???
Hey Srinivas:)..
can u please post that pdn link for the rest of us?
Busy working, but Bob had just a really good idea (smiiirk!), why can’t we update our EPF posts so that it is always within the one-post rule, while going on about what we were trying to say, ad lib on what someone else said. Just like before?…..
Bob, I consider you my friend ( as in a friend we can develop affection for and with, having not met yet), but I do not think it fair to use privileges only available to you, that no one else can’t, when BUZZ is a perfectly good place to “update” on what is being said under an EPF entry.
Yes? No?
No, Panos. Nothing so grand! It was a First Place News Photo in the Press Club of Southeast Texas Excellence In Journalism competition.
I don’t have the photo online yet. I’ll try to get it online on one of my domains tonight.
here it is panos:
the pdn link: http://www.pdngallery.com/contests/photoannual/2009/
click on the winners gallery and you’ll get a pop up window with the winners
” First Place News Photo in the Press Club of Southeast Texas Excellence In Journalism ”
speechless…..
Herve..
im so confused… what update… what bob…what did i miss here?.. what happened?
the Canon Award….!!?
Thank you Srinivas:))))))))))))))))))))
“First Place News Photo in the Press Club of Southeast Texas Excellence In Journalism competition.”
Any win is a good win. Congratulations Jim.
What was it a photo of?
http://www.dioceseofbmt.org/etc/thisjustin/etcwinsbig.html
is that the Award?… Jim where is your name?
No, Panos. lol
Herve/all:
1) u are absolutely correct, as was joe vis-a-vis, the updated comment for Carl. I have removed the added comment and will place it here at the end. I wish for NO additional priviledges that are not extended to the readership and just as I haven’t used the ‘grey editorial comment bar’ since it was perceived as privledge or perceived as usurping david, i will not only NOT update/edit posts but I have gone one step further. I have written david and anton privately that i have removed myself from any kind of responsiblities. This way this misstep on my part will never happen again.
2) Clearly my original post was attacked (Joe called me a hypocrite) but I accept responsibility for this: my poor choice of language. I think Carl is an exceptionally talented young photographer and his work deserves praise. Reading the essay this morning struck me off kilter: i have a close close friend who grew up in a holler, in Johnson county, and upon first seeing the essays I was frustrated, not with Carl, but with the limitation of the ‘information’ we received visually: i wanted to see more than just the family around/in the trailer. I later look at the website in full, all the parts of the story. The photographs are beautiful and powerful and have a vital sensitivity to both the White family and the environment in which Carl is shooting. I still, as a person that has spent time there, as a reader who has a friend who grew up in a holler similiar to this, I just hungered to see the story outside the trailer. That being said, it’s clear that Carl understands not only how to photograph but how to let subjects ‘speak’ through his lens. This is a lesson that is a real gift. I dont feel any different about the essay now than when i did the 3 times i looked this morning, but I regret the way i described my reaction. It’s clear that it appears that my comments appears either overly harsh or unsupportive or (as implied by Petteri) jealous or bitter of some kind. this could not be fartherest from the truth. I was thrilled to see a college student in the finals, and my objection to the work had only to do with the fact that the story seemed thin, but after a lot of reflection, my judgement was more about my own inability to take the story for what it was, rather than escape my own personal bias. Maybe this is the hypocricy that Joe has so vociferously draped me in.
3) Erica is right, this is not the place for me to be any more, at least not in the capacity of commenting/discussing.
4) for the record, i have been working (as early as just yesterday) tirlessly behind the scenes to bring on not only NEW talent in the way of photographers/essays but one very important person to help out with Burn, or rather, to be a part of the Burn family. This person will add immeasurably to Burn’s content but will be invaluable for both readers and photographers, as this person’s job/profession is to help photographers, with experience with WPP as well as world famous agency. If i was such a nasty person, such a hypocrit, such a jealous person, I would never have tried to bring this person to help Burn, to help out the photographers here. With good fortune, Burn will continue to develop in ways that most of the readership at the moment will not only celebrate but will benefit, and benefit in real ways from. That has been my objection, as David knows, from day 1, back in October, back in December when the idea for an online magazine first came up as an idea.
5) old man tom. i understand what you are saying. i have aged too and failed too. I let a positively cheap shot get the better of me. i let my own exhaustion weary me. I also allowed personal investment cloud my own distance. I have spent the entirety of my photographic life helping others and those who live in NY and Toronto who know me understand that. It is time i do what M suggested long ago and recover. My failing. I personalized way too much this entire ordeal and out of care and concern with friends who expressed disappointment, I tended to not distance myself from that. their frustration became my own and there in lay the problem: again, to which, ultimately, i am responsible, period. It is a shame that after all this time, i failed to see what, in my off-line life, is part of my nature: laughter and support.
I wish Carl all the best and hope and trust he reads my words for what they were meant to suggest.
and lastly, yes, here is the update i wrote, but just removed and will put it here as requested….
that was not only foolish and unfair of me to do, but disrespectful in principle.
all the best
bob
that update that joe and herve spoke of:
“UPDATE: since it’s clear that my comment is being perceived as a personalized diminishment of Carl’s work, let me state so that is unconditionally understood. First, Carl is a keenly observant and wonderfully talented photographer that belies his young age. Moreover, it is clear that he is focused and has committed himself to both a story and a family that he has affection, respect and connection with. His photographs are visually powerful and he has a strong sense of moment. My comment had to do with the ‘thinness’ of the essay based on 3 years of work: my own hunger to see more outside of the confides of the trailor. As for making people’s blood boil, my reaction has no relationship to being a participant at Burn and it’s sad because i write about an essay that i had hoped for more initiates reactions such as this. I regret, in truth, having written this then if the result would be personal attacks (being called a hypocrite) and being accussed of personal enmity (not in the top 11, as Petteri seams to imply). that is a misfortuante reaction. but, well, i’ve learned my lesson as to what people expect….over and out.”
UPDATE: since it’s clear that my comment is being perceived as a personalized diminishment of Carl’s work, let me state so that is unconditionally understood. First, Carl is a keenly observant and wonderfully talented photographer that belies his young age. Moreover, it is clear that he is focused and has committed himself to both a story and a family that he has affection, respect and connection with. His photographs are visually powerful and he has a strong sense of moment. My comment had to do with the ‘thinness’ of the essay based on 3 years of work: my own hunger to see more outside of the confides of the trailor. As for making people’s blood boil, my reaction has no relationship to being a participant at Burn and it’s sad because i write about an essay that i had hoped for more initiates reactions such as this. I regret, in truth, having written this then if the result would be personal attacks (being called a hypocrite) and being accussed of personal enmity (not in the top 11, as Petteri seams to imply). that is a misfortuante reaction. but, well, i’ve learned my lesson as to what people expect….over and out.
typo “That has been my objection since day 1″…i meant…this has been my OBJECTIVE….sorryg
bb
“my judgement was more about my own inability to take the story for what it was, rather than escape my own personal bias”
exactly. remember i did the same thing with the South African essay and had to eat humble pie later! :-) I still do it all the time, i would do it more if you didn’t scold me so much for doing it and you are correct to scold me, but can you imagine my surprise when you fell from grace ;-)
Bob:))))
“V.I.P” person u r bringing to Burn?
who? im so curious!!!!!!!
We have Jim already … my heart goes faster now!
i wonder who is he/she?
Bob, wishing you the best but thinking you will not be able to stay away for too long … just watch the river flow for a while.
Panos, did a quick jpeg of the photo. This monitor is calibrated for CMYK here at the office. Hope it’s not too light on the web.
http://www.39thframe.com/DPSLogtruck.jpg
Awesome……. i love it.. N.W.A’s dream:)))))))))))
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkPb4s0-QcI
N.W.A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WiX7GTelTPM&feature=related
Jim i love your photo….sell it for a new Rap Album Cover…
call dr.DRE..:))))))))))))))))))))
The DPS officer was sitting in the drivers seat writing a ticket on his computer when he looked up and saw the log truck rolling back at him. He dropped out of the open door just as the log went through the windshield and stopped against his headrest.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4S8Wc26XowM&feature=related
good ol’days…:)
It’s amazing what some people will do to get out of a ticket, isnt it?
Yeah. The driver ended up getting 32 tickets, most of them safety violations on his truck. I’m guessing he’s looking for a new career.
Jim… were you embedded with the police ?
How come you were there? at the right time?
Was it staged?
:)))))))
Hello all,
You didn’t know we had internet down here, did you?
Well, Mr Harvey, I have been a ‘lurker’ since day one of Road Trips and then on to Burn… What indeed a trip! But today I must come out of my silence to urge Mr.Bob Black to continue to post, he’s a great case study and he is greatly contributing to the advancement of science. If I had the phone, I would call him too. (I guess I could send him a email)
Best,
Sigmund
(Like everybody else here, I have mixed feelings regarding the choice of the finalists but hey, what can I say, they’re good case study too!)
Personally i find this photo POINTLESS…
Jim happened to be there… the truck backed on the cop car…
Jim ran walking to the scene… he forgot his camera on iso 25000..
camera overexposed…
next thing you know…… Big Texan Award…….
so thats how is done!!!!!!!1 Hmmmmmmmmmm
Sigmund!..:)
Hey , why do i hate white milk?
Why cant i still eat the white of the eggs even today??
(hint: my mother is white!)
:)
I guess what I wondering after seeing these EPF entries, is where is the next Koudelka?! I mean where is the next young photographer who is setting the bar almost impossibly high? Where is the photographer with unbridled originality?
Davin,
there is no such a thing… as next
Koudelka……who needs another Koudelka anyways??
And that bar you mentioned??????
Ahhh that bar is already impossibly high!!!!!!!!!!
And photographers with enough originality??????
ohhh cmon… they are also right here..
In front of our own eyes , but we are too self absorbed,
we are too much into this “game” that its impossible to admit it..
impossible to see it…too close……..
under our nose!!!!!!
:))))))))
Panos:
I don’t mean the next Koudelka, I mean the next true visionary on Koudelka’s level. Carl has much more work that should have been in his edit on his website, but it is still American style photojournalism. When I mention Koudelka, I mean where is the reportage photographer who is truly going his own way, not doing derivative work in any way.
I looked through all Carl’s work. His website provides a much, much better sense of his abilities. He has very nice work. The EPF edit doesn’t do it any justice.
SIGMUND,
why is putting ketchup on a hot dog a symbol of psychosexual immaturity while putting mustard on a hot dog is considered a sign of psychic health? Why must any rational discussion of condiments turn eventually to a heated discussion of sexual dysfunction and its role in our postindustrial information society? Why does my boy Bob keep spelling privilege with a d in it, when he knows that there is no d in privilege; in fact,it has to take a vitamin supplement to get any d at all. Does God exist? Why does God exist? Why do the Boston Red Sox exist and doesnt God know that their existence makes Him look bad? If sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, are there times when a cigar is a stalk of asparagus and when might those thymes be? I look forward to hearing from you, unless that is merely my way of suppressing my hostility towards my brothers, which I dont really understand, since I’ve never had any problem expressing my hostility towards them before.
,……..and to second Akaky…!
why putting mayo on a hot dog considered Porn???????
make no sense….
Help us Sigmund!
Where is the photographer with unbridled originality? Where is the photographer with bridled originality? Why are we even looking for a photographer at all? Shouldnt we be looking for a good jockey instead?
i knew u made a fortune Akaky…
but i didnt know you are a gambler!!!??
horses???????
Interesting question Davin. I can’t disagree more with Panos. They are not right here under our noses. Most of what we have seen here we have seen before, there’s nothing too original to be seen. Almost all of the stories show a style that is derivative apart from Alejandro’s.
And shouldnt low fat mayonnaise be banned, given its contribution to the horrific wave of cognitive dissonance sweeping across the length and breadth of this our Great Republic? Before you know it, people here will start putting mayonnaise on their french fries! First, existentialism and deconstructionism, and now, mayonnaised french fries! How many more of these filthy European perversions can the ship of state withstand before it comes to grief on Greyhound?
Sigmund,
And I thought you were dead!
Speaking of condiments, What did you think of Bossy Burger? Wunderbarste, nein? Hahahaha!!
It’s beginning to smell like 2007 in here.
Akaky,i agree, but…
if it wasnt for the Euro Trash…
the Native Americans would be still alive…owning their land…
there would be no Thanks Giving, no Slavory and no Great Republic…
:)))))
Remember: its those same old filthy European perversions that created our Great Republic…..
Ahhhh the pilgrims loved mayo!!!!!!!!!!!!
I can state for the record that I am thee most original, most talented, and iconoclastic photographer currently working in my flat.
Sigmund, have you been at the ‘organic altitude sickness medicine’ again.
JG,
but are you the most iconoclastic photgrapher in your flat, or your pet gerbil Herbert take that honor instead?
or does…must PROOFREAD, dammit, before I hit the submit button
Akaky..:)
He doesn’t have three parents..
Just two..
The third “wheel” is just the LOVER..:)
get it..
;)
One other thing I had to mention: I think it’s interesting that Harvey puts in a disclaimer for any essay with ‘nudity’. If this was a website and grant created, say, by an Italian photographer, do you really think he would mention if there was nudity or not?! The need for the disclaimer really seems to come from an American puritanical perspective. Nudity is a fact of life. Sex is a fact of life. We are all adults here. None of the essays are pornographic. . . I just don’t see the need for the disclaimer. What I find really odd about America is that it is ultra religious but then it also has the largest pornographic industry in the world and the cable companies who give you CNN and Keith Olbermann also make a lot of their money by providing porn to hotel chains.
meanwhile back at the ranch,proof that mike tyson hasnt lost his ability to knock people out.
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3405/3603500748_809c24fe8d_b.jpg
note for music afficionados..yes it is.
I guess what I am saying is, why can’t we all just be normal? No Republican man should be telling a woman he doesn’t know in another state what she can do with her body. Why don’t we all just keep our hands to ourselves, not carry concealed weapons and shoot people at school, eat organic food, read the newspaper, not have hatred for others with different religions or skin colors, travel and not make assumptions about the rest of the world?! It is so difficult to be rational?! Why don’t we all agree that with the thousands of planes flying each day that each burn tens of thousands of gallons, not to mention the millions of cars, that humans are indeed having an effect on the climate?! Let’s actually think. I swear the world would be more normal if everyone did yoga and mindfulness meditation.
“Think of your fellow man
Lend him a helping hand
Put a little love in your heart
You see it’s getting late
Oh please don’t hesitate
Put a little love in your heart
And the world will be a better place
And the world will be a better place
For you and me
You just wait and see”
Davin,
well some of us watch the slideshows at work. The disclaimer is very useful.
“…I guess what I am saying is, why can’t we all just be normal?…”
Oh, dear! I should probably wait for Sigmund or Akaky (our resident experts on deviance) to answer that one! This morning Erica stuck her neck out, and what good did it do her? Any sane (forget normal) person wouldn’t touch this question with a ten foot pole.
Davin, I liked your pictures from Romania very much (and said as much at the time). You seem, from the persona you project here, to be a very earnest and sincere person, so I will not guffaw in your face, but I think David, Jim Powers, Patricia, and anybody else here over the age of about 50 would agree with me that this is a question only a rather young person could or would ask. The deep dark secret that experience teaches is that there is no such thing as ‘normal’, never has been , never will be… “Normal” was a myth perpetrated in middle-class America during the 1950’s by TV shows such as “Ozzie and Harriet”, partly from ideology and partly from consumerist hucksterism, and if you want to examine the seamy and illusory underside of all that, try reading David Halberstam’s book “The Fifties”. I can assure you, with complete confidence, that whatever you may consider to be ‘normal’ is not so regarded by the overwhelming mass of people in, for example, Japan, South Korea, China, Taiwan, Thailand, the Philippines, Indonesia, or Mexico… just for starters. Even the ones there who do regularly meditate, etc. Nor was what you may consider to be ‘normal’ though such in the US 40 years ago, and certainly won’t be 40 years from now.
My only prescription is that of Not-So-Young-Anymore Tom’s: Go outside with a camera, take some pictures, and, maybe share the ones you like with us.
Cheers,
Sidney, well I am only 31, but yes, there is no such thing as normal. What I mean is can’t we all be a bit more cool à la the Europeans and not worry if there is nudity in an essay?!
Rafal, ok, but again would a European grant site have this disclaimer?! This is not an XXX site, most reportage is within the normal bounds of human existence.
I think Davin rather than “normal” just meant decent and loving. Yah, like what Jim is quoting. “Normal” has such loaded connototations. This is just semantics, I have no trouble understanding your sentiment Davin.
Cheers everyone.
Now go and make some photographs of someone or something you love.
Ok guys and gals, here’s the deal. Photographers are a strange bunch. They couldn’t agree on what day of the week it was but yet they all want to hang out together…Go figure. This bidness (pronounced business for the comically impaired) is all about opinion.
I want to thank each and every one of you all for the passion, opinions, defense of positions, mean-spirited accusations and oh, critiques of folks who hope to follow their heart by submitting to your perspective of their efforts. We are interacting on a global level; proving that putting a bunch photographers in a room will make sparks fly!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yKt_o6AflbI
Let’s make pictures!!!! It’s a small world after all.
………burn has transformed into a youtube affiliate
Sh*tdang, good news just in folks:
Anna Maria Barry Jester, Lance Rosenfield, Kim Reierson and I among others will be in Slideluck LOOK3 on Thursday night..mine is a little preview of the Brooklyn project..hope to see you there!
http://look3.org/events/additional-events/
Immants…
YouTube, music,satellite radio…written words…
whatever, who cares… as long as it helps one express oneself…
:)
Davin,
for our Great Republic thats equivalent to porn…
Laughing…
i remember back in greece there is porn hanging everywhere…
from any kiosk in the middle of the street or any liquor store…
Even a major greek newspaper ( right wing ) had always ( in the second page )
a naked lady… with big asterisks over her nipples…
every sunday , second page…
laughing…good ol’days…
but yes… you sound like you live in Romania or some place like that otherwise
u would already know that in america everything is considered porn…
we are ultra religious over here…
…. andofcourse theLakersLost……….
on youtube …. andofcourse theLakersLost……….
… as long as it helps one express oneself……..the person posting the link is doing just that posting a link (boing click), the creators are doing the expressing
Imants…:)
No no, relax, get a drink,
we are at the bar under the SEA…
Relax, flirt, get another drink…
what do u see?
we are in a bar “under the sea”
In an “Octapussy’s”…)))))))))))))))) “garden”……
No?
So we need music, right?
So we need a DJ right?..but no money to hire one right?
so what we do?
walk around like zombies with no music?
Nope..:)
We play that music ourselves..
thats all….:)
Imants
Musicians and poets help us express what we are feeling. Music is one of the most powerful means of human expression. We look to our poets/musicians to bring us to places we long to be. How many times have I been reduced to tears by music…many more times than from viewing a photograph I have to say.
Posting a utube link is the modern version of quoting your favourtie poet.
Jim, thanks for the link and the sentiment.
I mean where is the next young photographer who is setting the bar almost impossibly high? Where is the photographer with unbridled originality
—————————————–
Davin, probably not one laying notices of dozen awards and professional accolades left and right on its resume, even having that many. These are the good pupils, the studious students, the ones who say” look!, I belong, I am one of yours”.
To be a Koudelka, or a Cartier-Bresson, or an Arbus, you need that streak of individualism, of iconoclasm (there is a better word, but can’t find it at the moment) where what you do does not quite belong, does not quite fit. Just an intuition, but I also sense you have to be a reluctant player in the game (and so often an indirect one, as many bios seem to indicate, Koudelka started as a engineer, so did salgado). I see too many people so eager to be A photographer, to belong to the trade. It’s nice, but nice is no help for greatness.
Inversely, one thing that I find just so telling about guys like David, is that he never wanted to be a photographer. At 11, he was one already….
Actually, I often find myself more inspired to take photos by music rather than from looking at photos….
Panos if I was a bit more relaxed and that would make sorta in the dead department. Anyway it is still work time here
That’s right quoting, posting when in doubt another youtube. You guys are the ones getting your knickers in a knot. Then I don’t really need visuals to embrace music
Imants……
i love your work… your website……….:))))))
Thanks……….not youtube but close http://www.etrouko.com.au/chook1.avi
Davin, funny you should ask, but if I remember correctly that disclaimer was the result of one of Mr Power’s tedious morning rampages, where he had been slighted by something or rather. But yes its true, you have to be politically correct nowadays because you never quite know who you will offend with visual material. Also, funnily enough the infamous one comment rule was also one of his suggestions, quite ironic considering he was the instigator of the disorder in the first place; hence that comment muzzle.
I also had a quick look at Jim’s winning photograph. It certainly is a sad day for Southeast Texan photography (but a good day for Jim) if that is the standard of excellence with which to gauge the region. The highlights are grossly washed out and it is obvious that the award was given solely on the premise: ‘you had to be there’&’first on the scene’. I guess if you drive around with camera in hand for a small-town newspaper for 35 odd years, it stands to reason that one day you will ‘happen’ upon a car accident. Well, one would hope so. I think the problem that exists here, is coming from a film background and perhaps didn’t yet learn to master the new process. Anyway, I just hope that he doesn’t act under the misguided assumption that the award will somehow add credibility to his snide two line installments. Now, that would be a sad day for Burn.
Also, what is with the blurred number plates in that photograph, don’t people wash their cars in Texas?
JJ
Johan, an award in the news business these days, and .87 cents, will get you a small cup of coffee at McDonalds. They certainly don’t convey credibility. Fortunately, you don’t have to be a photographer at all to post comments here.
Also, fortunately, I don’t have to drive around with a camera. One of the perks of a small county is that law enforcement calls me when something happens. Cell phones made the old police scanner hanging under the dash pretty obsolete. Cops only use radios to schedule coffee and donut breaks these days.
PAUL…
yes, you are right on it….thanks….
ERICA…
i look forward to seeing you at Look…and my apologies for totally forgetting to do what i was supposed to do for you….let’s please try to get some one on one time in the next few days…i will make a point of it…
DAVIN…
we put the “nudity” warning in here so that folks who happen to log on to Burn in the workplace will not get fired for looking at what might be considered “inappropriate material”…workers in offices can evidently get in serious trouble for what may appear to you and to me as hardly x rated…so, i really am a bit embarrassed to put up that warning, yet have been advised by every lawyer i can find that it is prudent to do so…
you have been a great discussion starter of late….many thanks….
cheers, david
DAH
no worries and thank you..I went with my gut and had the dummy sent right to VA. care of Gina’s hands, where it is now, so we can look from there..will make a point of it too :)
did you see that Lance, Anna Barry and I (among others) are having work in LOOK Slideluck? Am excited..
Mr. Harvey,
I don’t think you should be embarrassed in the least for placing the “nudity” warning. I like to check out Burn during my lunch break in my office, and I’m sure that others do as well.
On one photo forum in which I participate, posts with nudity are often labeled as “NSFW” (not safe for work). On that forum, it is considered good manners to give the viewers a “heads up” so that they may use their own discretion about viewing at work.
ERICA,
regarding weedlock: damn, I should have thought of that.
Akaky
Remember, I stole your dictionary
“why can’t we all just be normal?”
Because being normal is boring.
“It is so difficult to be rational?!”
Yes, it is.
“Why don’t we all just keep our hands to ourselves, not carry concealed weapons and shoot people at school, eat organic food, read the newspaper, not have hatred for others with different religions or skin colors, travel and not make assumptions about the rest of the world?!”
Because if we did all of the above, there would be no point reading the newspaper in the first place; there’d be no news to print, which would probably make the advertising department happy. The best way to maximize the advertising space in any newspaper is to get rid of the news.
“Why don’t we all agree that with the thousands of planes flying each day that each burn tens of thousands of gallons, not to mention the millions of cars, that humans are indeed having an effect on the climate?”
Because I’m not walking the eight miles to work in the middle of winter, that’s why.
As for the nudity thing, Davin, you’re right, it is silly, but some of us have to deal with the realities of modern office life and the lawyers take this stuff dead seriously. Nudity creates a hostile workplace environment for the female staff. How? Beats the hell out of me, but the lawyers say it does and covering the institutional ass is part of the job description here. And then there are kids. Most offices dont come complete with swarms of kids and parents going in and out, but here in the egregious mold pit wherein I labor for my daily bread, that’s the reality, and the corollary to that reality is that we do nothing, absolutely nothing, that might be misconstrued by either child or parent as an attempt to make an advance at a child. Therefore, the staff shall never, in any circumstances whatsoever, be alone with a child, the staff shall never touch a child, the staff shall have nothing on their computer screens that might give a parent cause to think that we are all a bunch of secret pedophiles just straining at the bit for a chance to molest their annoying little brats. That’s just the way it is.
DAH, everybody!
Sorry, I hadn’t really considered the workplace situation being someone who has never worked in that environment myself and doing all my work from home on my own computer in the privacy of my room. I have been commenting here a bit too much as of late! I need to get back out on the road and shooting again, but I am still tethered to my scanner!
If you want to be famous, you have to be worse at something than everyone else in the world! –Miroslav Tichy
So is it going to be … what happens in C-ville stays in C-ville, or are we going to get some updates from LOOK? I know, who has time amidst all the fun ;-)) Next year.
iphone and I will try
ERICA,
Yes! C-ville dispatches por favor, in your own rich and inimitable style! The masses wait breathlessly…
ooh, not sure if iphone is up to all THAT!
but tell me what you want to know about, and I’ll try
ERICA,
Do whatever you can, whatever interests you, whatever you feel foremost… believe me, it will all be appreciated! And of course we understand the iPhone means that posts will be necessarily short and succinct.
Pretend this is Twitter and send up some tweets!
Nathaniel…
hmmmm u put weird software on my brain now!
so u think the kid exploited that family?
HEY ALL
I will post images from LOOK3 on my personal site’s blog until DAH gets back to me on where to send the images…. He is a bit busy these days.
You can check it out here: http://www.petemarovichimages.com/dispatches/
So who is going to Look3 this year? I’m disappointed I can’t make it.
On the bright side though Jess and I have been hired to cover a group of dentists and dentistry students traveling to Peru to set up a temporary clinic. We will be over there for a couple of weeks from the 16th.
Look forward to seeing updates from the festival though! Will check out your blog Pete.
I am not going to Look3 nor am I going to Peru to photograph dentists; I do not believe all the troubles of the third world can be solved by better orthodontic care, although I suppose it helps. Peru is an interesting case, however; some years ago, I heard of Peruvian doctors performing brain surgery with a power drill and pliers bought from a local hardware store, which led to members of Carpenters Local 45 offering surgery at half price to poor and working class people in the New York—New Jersey area. The local’s first patient was Mrs. Sylvia Grosbeck of the Bronx, who came into the union hall needing an emergency organ transplant. The carpenters replaced Mrs. Grosbeck’s diseased heart and liver with a two story split level ranch house in Scarsdale. “The mortgage was very reasonable, I thought,” Mrs. Grosbeck said after the operation. “And now we have a front yard for the grandchildren to play in. It’s a dream come true.”
Apple again offers a small high powered laptop! Photographers loved the 12 inch G4 powerbook but when the new Macbook Pro line came out a few years ago only a 15 inch and 17 inch model were offered. Now they’ve added a 13 inch Macbook Pro!:
http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/shop_mac/family/macbook_pro?intcmp=AIC-WWW-NAUS-K2-BUYNOW-MACBOOKPRO-INDEX
Plenty of sites around for this stuff………………..”the dreaded gear lust”…………………..lets not contaminate all sites.
PETE M,
Great photos of DAH and Nachtwey from the workshop… keep’em coming!
I am the passenger
And I ride and I ride
I ride through the citys backside
I see the stars come out of the sky
Yeah, theyre bright in a hollow sky
You know it looks so good tonight
I am the passenger
I stay under glass
I look through my window so bright
I see the stars come out tonight
I see the bright and hollow sky
Over the citys a rip in the sky
And everything looks good tonight
Singin la la la la la-la-la la
La la la la la-la-la la
La la la la la-la-la la la-la
Get into the car
Well be the passenger
Well ride through the city tonight
See the citys ripped insides
Well see the bright and hollow sky
Well see the stars that shine so bright
The sky was made for us tonight
Oh the passenger
How how he rides
Oh the passenger
He rides and he rides
He looks through his window
What does he see?
He sees the bright and hollow sky
He see the stars come out tonight
He sees the citys ripped backsides
He sees the winding ocean drive
And everything was made for you and me
All of it was made for you and me
cause it just belongs to you and me
So lets take a ride and see whats mine
Singing…
Oh, the passenger
He rides and he rides
He sees things from under glass
He looks through his windows
eye
He sees the things he knows are his
He sees the bright and hollow sky
He sees the city asleep at night
He sees the stars are out tonight
And all of it is yours and mine
And all of it is yours and mine
Oh, lets ride and ride and ride and ride…
Singing…
Imants:
It’s not about ‘gear lust’ it’s about, for me, being able to carry a laptop and mirrored 1 TB drives all on a plane with me back to Europe. It’s about being able to travel and shoot pictures as lightly as possible. I, myself, appreciate when others give me the heads-up on new technology. But I do understand what you are saying. . .
Shoot Pete! Thanks for those. Nachtwey and Harvey in one workshop?! Wow!
Akaky, etc.
That´s a pretty funny post. Truthfully, and i´m sorta sorry to address you personally because you´re just trying to be humorous but i am sorta (no, very) tired of seeing essays and comments depicting Latin American countries as barbaric, poverty-stricken backwaters that would perform brain surgery with an electric drill from the hardware store and whose citizens only want to go to the USA and take jobs away from hard-working Americans. Really. I think many here could benefit from a trip south of the border and then south of that and even more south than that, seeing, meeting, talking, learning and shooting people and cultures they clearly know very little about.
best
kathleen
TRICK DADDY “BRICKS & MARIJUANA LYRICS…
( this is how the south thinks … like 5 years ago… maybe..? )
http://rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A0geuyflMzBK4koAsABXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTBybnZlZnRlBHNlYwNzcgRwb3MDMQRjb2xvA2FjMgR2dGlkAw–/SIG=12vfijhul/EXP=1244759397/**http%3a//www.lyricsfreak.com/t/trick%2bdaddy/bricks%2bmarijuana_20140594.html
[kase]
For my niggas, in the feds
My niggas in the pen
My niggas aint gone neva see the streets no mo
This one for you nigga
Free buddy roe
Hook: 2x
Look I been scuffling years your honor
Thats why Im traffickin these bricks and marijuana
Shit
Verse 1:kase
I been put in the world
Living my days ducking ks
Was bursting bitches jumping out they benzs on blades
I been scuffling years you honor
I swear the God I wanna do for my kids you honor
If you was me then you would see how it is you honor
Through all the drama and this rain
Nobody felt my pain
I went to serving after fame
Then shit changed
You wonder what am I to do
Niggas on my block
Am I supposed to be a fuck nigga?
Let em rope my spot
When jeb bush pushing life
If I tout my weapon
Now ronald regan was selling guns
But it aint a felony
A house on the hills with all these bills
I gots to sell em
My shawty waking up with out his christmas
What the fuck ima tell em?
When I be juggling selling bricks?
Will heaven take me?
Now 25 plus life
Rehabilitate me
These crackers calling me a monster
But they help create me
Shit
Hook: 4x
Look I been scuffling years your honor
Thats why Im traffickin these bricks and marijuana
Shit
Verse 2: kase
Aint seen my momma since the last time we hung out
Now six years to be exact
Cause she strung out
My getting jobs looking shady, on my application
Now have I ever committed felons?
Look at this shit Im facing
And now these streets dont get no better for my young niggas
Now the muthafuckers thats coming up is the gravediggers
And I cant seem to trust my niggas
And I grew up with em
Folk in my mind at times learn not to fuck with em
When I was stuck who could I turn to?
Nobody but jesus
Im in this world looking up to the gangsters
Looking up to the leaders
Granddaddy had a stroke and grandmomma broke
Who the fuck gone feed us?
Yall wrapped us in ropes and put us on boats
But yall really aint need us
Muthafuck that shit
I got tired of the struggling
? ? ? in the jungle
Cant let a nigga fuck me about this coke
So I learned what was and what wasnt
Im getting them things at 17
At least gone cop a dozen
You lose yo life
Shit aint no joke
Thats if yo coke is buzzing
Shit
Hook: 4x
Look I been scuffling years your honor
Thats why Im traffickin these bricks and marijuana
Shit
Mystic(talking)
Now what Im talking bout
Got niggas doing the dirty dirty
Now what Im saying
But it cant last dirty to long
Nigga gotta clean up somewhere
So, you know what Im talking bout
Take a nigga advice and get in and get out baby boy
Cause it aint all bad
But it aint all good
Now what Im talking bout
And the hood dangerous watching out
Everybody shouldnt be po-po
Dealing with the dope dope
So you better watch out boy
Get in and get ouuuut
Hook: 2x
Look I been scuffling years your honor
Thats why Im traffickin these bricks and marijuana
Shit
love y’all…
big hug & peace out…….
thank u for letting me post some advanced poetry tonight… :)
It’s the plaque of far too many photographers these days. They are uninterested in understanding the people and situations they are photographing. Too much work. Perhaps, if they understood, they might not want to take the photos.
Jim:
Doing documentary photography is all about understanding your subjects. I can’t understand why one would want to photograph if one didn’t first understand the situation, the story. Are you saying that lots of photographers are just interested in the idea of being a photographer, of making slick photos? This may be true to some extent, but to do any sort of long-term documentary you usually have to be somewhat obsessed and passionate about your subject. To do any great work one needs to be an expert on one’s subject.
Akaky: You familiar with Vic Reeves and Bob Mortimer? Did those guys ever make it across the pond? Right up your street mate!
Davin lets stick to photography instead of filling the place up with gear tips go to Lightstalkers etc for that
Davin made one post about a piece of gear. There have been more posts telling him not to post gear than that. Seems like any disruption to the thread is mainly caused by those bitching that Davin is disrupting the thread. Gotta love Internet forums.
Well Jim babie lets let it rip with gear http://www.sasequip.com/shopexd.asp?id=181&bc=no
Thanks Pete for posting those … made me smile … and wince remembering those straightforward critiques too! Ah Virginia, I miss those Shenandoah rapids … wishing I was there.
Heading back to LOOK3 tomorrow for the festival. I will try to post more either on the blog or here if DAH let me know how. I assume it would involve Anton and I am sure he will be busy there also. Either way I will try to keep everyone apprised of the festivities.
imants cool … didn’t know you could get laptop armor and body armor from one retailer. Oooohh, they have a clearance section … brb.
You too can join the clearance section as long as you write a polite email on where is the best place to get a bullet in your head ……. caring and sharing guys that they are
Pete, thanks for the LOOK3 Pix. everyone looks great, but that last pix, the shades, David looks like he is going to be the villain in the next TRANSPORTER sequel…. he looks mean, yet Patricia looks undaunted. They have seen a few in their lives…Just lately our “take no prisoners” EPF comments…. Got to have the hide of a… DAHnoceros.
:-))))
Actually, speaking of military hardware, I once saw this bizarre TV program on some gun show that is held every year in Texas. After watching it I wondered why there was such a high mortality rate from gun related incidents. It was quite surreal watching people shoot 50 calibre guns and larger while harnessed into some seat to stop them being thrown backwards from the recoil. I think there was even footage of them holding a BBQ afterwards to trade ‘stories’. ‘Yeah man you should have seen how I f***** that front passenger door’. Penny for their thoughts; especially considering the object that they were shooting at was an outdated Japanese suzuki. The car really looked worse for wear after they had finished their debauchery. It was a sad moment. I mean I would just get psyched shooting at a stationery car. But, perhaps kind of like you had to be there.
JJ
JJ
There are no psycho guns.
Having seen all 11 finalists, now, it will be interesting to read David’s comments about each. To try and understand his criteria for choosing them. I realize he had only the 1,200 that entered to choose from, but I’m just not seeing anything fresh, anything “knock your socks off.”
But there are psycho gnus…………
Jim, I hope that you didn’t in any way assume that my anecdotal Monday night TV story was in any way directed at you. However in reply you could almost say that semi-automatic weaponse in the hands of psychos are less offensive than 7 frame per second digital cameras in the callused hands of 35 year newspaper pros who can only relate to the snick of their Leica IIIf’s decisive moment.
‘Fuzzy, grainy, motion blurred’, you got to get some new discourse, because those three are wearing thin from overuse on your previous critiques. Personally I get all warm and fuzzy on the inside when I see my sexy loved one indulging in wholemeal toast, salted butter and blackberry jam, coz it makes me dizzy. Thats my definition of love.
JJ
Johan, can you send me an e-mail to jncolligan at yahoo dot com i need a favour. Cheers.
Johan, sex and passion are common. But the camera can’t capture the things that make our relationships truly intimate. Trying to avoid a bad pun, the camera is an inadequate instrument to capture true intimacy.
Ad hominem attack noted.
So what happened to the original 10……….why the extra
Regards the final essay. I greatly respect Davids critical eye, and also the eyes of you people. I also like to think that I can spot a good (subjective yeah yeah yeah :) ) picture when i see one. so bearing that in mind can somebody, anybody, tell me why the pictures in this essay work? Because although i must believe that i miss lots of things and am coloured by personal preference, I cannot ‘see’ what is in these at all. By this i mean someone here who ‘gets’ it and can explain to me what that ‘it’ is. Not someone (hi jim :) ) who will just reinforce my statement. I really do want to know if i am just either, looking wrong, or plain unable to grasp whats being shown in them.
Thanks
JOHN
Aaahh dunno I am lost on the last essay…though if one spends enough time on a individual image some redeeming aspect could be found as long as one makes up their own story. It’s like being on a deserted island there’s gotta be something there. That’s the best I can do.
Generally I found the essays somewhat disappointing but then its not my call…….
LOOK3 Festival To Go Dark Next Year
http://www.pdnonline.com/pdn/content_display/features/pdn-online/e3i68d0e189b7e43eafe46da80eb8a5482e
Now that is a shame. But LOOKing forward to 2011
The economy has simply hit everyone. Hopefully it will be back in 2011.
From ABC (Australian Broadcasting Co.)
Doctor uses store drill for brain surgery
Posted Fri Jul 11, 2003 4:14pm AEST
Lacking the proper instruments, a Peruvian doctor at a state hospital in the Andean highlands has used a drill and pliers to perform brain surgery on a man injured in a fight.
The doctor, Cesar Venero, told Reuters: “We have no [neurosurgical] instruments at the hospital.
“He was dying, so I had no choice but to run to a hardware store to buy a drill and use the pliers that I fix my car with, of course after sterilizing them.”
The patient, Centeno Quispe, 47, had arrived at the hospital in Andahuaylas, 400 kms south-east of Lima, after being hit in the head with a metal object in a street fight, Dr Venero said.
“I drilled holes in his skull in a circle, leaving spaces of 5 millimetres, took out the bone with the pliers and removed the clots that were putting pressure on his brain,” he said.
Andahuaylas is one of the poorest regions of Peru, a country in which more than half its 27 million people live below the poverty line.
Dr Venero, who earns the equivalent of $650 a month, said he had used tools from a hardware store on five previous occasions but for less serious operations.
Mr Quispe was making a good recovery in a hospital in Peru’s capital, Lima.
Sorry, Kat, but sometimes reality is too good to be improved on.
Akaky
damn…hope he sterilized them first..
sorry Akaky, when you´re right, you´re right..wonder what they´ll use for the new dental clinic, weed pullers?
hugZ
kat-
oh yeah, i see..he did sterilize them..phew, well, that´s a relief.
In the Mood for Love is sorta like The White Family taken to the next level. Had a twitchy ¨fly on the wall¨ feeling when i saw The White Family and felt even twitchier when i viewed In the Mood for Love. Haven´t resolved this, have to think about it so haven´t commented on this last essay yet. Yes, reality show kind of expresses my discomfort. I wouldn´t watch this stuff on tv, do i want to see it in photos and if i do, why and when does it cross the line? I guess all our lines are in different places. Am thinking about mine.
best
kat-
FYI… Burn was featured on the NY Times blog Lens yesterday.
http://lens.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/10/must/
JC,
I’ve got no clue who those guys are. They’re not bill collectors, are they?
IMANTS,
no gnus is good gnus.
DAVIN,
you have some damn nerve talking about gear on a photography site…oh,,,wait a minute,,,cognitive dissonance is setting in…..back in a flash…..
Can I get a link to parrots used for dental surgery please? Did I mention my dentist had a parrot photo hanging on the wall in the lobby? What is the phobia of parrots, btw?
“Phobia of Parrots”: Of course I mean the human disorder involving the fear of parrots, not phobic parrots themselves which is a whole other issue altogether.
YT,
http://passingparade.blogspot.com/2008/04/parrots-and-their-uses-you-may-not-have.html
for info about peridontal parrots. And wouldnt a parrot phobia be a pscittacinophobia?
Wow…2001: a Burn Odyssey
cue R. Strauss, Also Sprach Zarathustra
Just a response to Joe’s take on the last EPF finalist essay, I’m not sure how porn got into the discussion. I don’t think anyone suggested the work is porn. Far from it. I think the work instead shows the limited voice of photography, the limits of what it can communicate. I see in a lot of work a growing frustration among “emerging” photographers with what still photography can convey. The extensive use of image blurred, dark, grainy out of focus photographs seems a frustrated effort at conveying motion with a medium that does that so poorly. I suggest the better way to move beyond these limitations is to shoot video, rather than reducing still photographs to blurred approximations of reality.
Photography is really not good at narrative beyond a certain limited point, either. Only words can do that. And real intimacy needs words to explain, if that is even possible.
And I still wonder what motivates folks who allow their most personal and intimate moments to be photographed and shown to the world. To what end? This photographer has chosen to convey intimacy in a sexual context. But that is the most superficial and easily photographed part of intimacy. And can easily exist completely without real intimacy. This comes across as photographer as voyeur. And not at all original.
What’s left of a couple’s intimacy once it is shared with the world?
A reality tv series?
Yes, Joe, it’s funny. You say you liked Cristina’s essay, but all your points, are totally elliptical to any of her photography and even purpose/stance. Save telling us it’s not porn, and you like #15.
reading you, one thinks all her qualities are residing in what she is not doing/being (not wearing evenmaybe!), and mostly in the fact that others/we do not get it, and look for love in the wrong places…
Maybe next year, David should take the usual BURN suspects prior to choosing the finalists, and select the 11 essays we most don’t get ;-).
I mean, that would save him a lot of hard work and agony, and a surefire way to spot the new “Salgado/Koudelkas”!
:-))))))
Kathleen: Worry not! These are American dentists, with the finest of equipment i’m sure!
Akaky: They’re a couple of comedians…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVJv_muI_UA
A selection of Jenny Holzer Truisms chosen especially for Burn:
all things are delicately interconnected
an elite is inevitable
anger or hate can be a useful motivating force
anything is a legitimate area of investigation
at times your unconsciousness is truer than your conscious mind
bad intentions can yield good results
being judgmental is a sign of life
being sure of yourself means you’re a fool
boredom makes you do crazy things
confusing yourself is a way to stay honest
decency is a relative thing
deviants are sacrificed to increase group solidarity
disgust is the appropriate response to most situations
drama often obscures the real issues
everyone’s work is equally important
everything that’s interesting is new
exceptional people deserve special concessions
fake or real indifference is a powerful personal weapon
going with the flow is soothing but risky
humanism is obsolete
if you can’t leave your mark give up
if you have many desires your life will be interesting
it is heroic to try to stop time
it’s not good to hold too many absolutes
it’s not good to operate on credit
just believing something can make it happen
knowing yourself lets you understand others
knowledge should be advanced at all costs
low expectations are good protection
moderation kills the spirit
money creates taste
monomania is a prerequisite of success
morals are for little people
much was decided before you were born
myth can make reality more intelligible
offer very little information about yourself
opacity is an irresistible challenge
people are responsible for what they do unless they are insane
people won’t behave if they have nothing to lose
playing it safe can cause a lot of damage in the long run
potential counts for nothing until it’s realized
random mating is good for debunking sex myths
rechanneling destructive impulses is a sign of maturity
repetition is the best way to learn
selfishness is the most basic motivation
slipping into madness is good for the sake of comparison
sloppy thinking gets worse over time
stasis is a dream state
taking a strong stand publicizes the opposite position
the new is nothing but a restatement of the old
there’s nothing redeeming in toil
wishing things away is not effective
with perseverance you can discover any truth
you are a victim of the rules you live by
you are responsible for constituting the meaning of things
you can’t fool others if you’re fooling yourself
you must disagree with authority figures
you must know where you stop and the world begins
you should study as much as possible
your actions are pointless if no one notices
I’m just happy I’m not dealing with FDB.
manohmanohmanohmanohmanohman
oh man.
having to pay by the 100 MB for internet here in balkmans land, which is tough.. cannot see love in action.. although jim – if your back is up it must be worth a view.
LONDON
david AHHHHH.
will email you about the meeting.. and you joe, paul, joni and ben.. looking forward to it.
anton is great – you too.
had a good day shooting.. lots of the reconstruction.. lots of the devestation.. been driving around finding ghost towns and bombed out buildings.. mine fields next to newly constructed houses and industrial estates.. new roads which lead no where.. grids of roads which i guess will be filled with houses in time, but which for now just sit there.. suburbs without the houses.
some toughness as well.. photographing one partially destroyed village an older guy and a younger guy approached me aggressively.. wanted to know why i was photographing one bullet riddled house in particular.. i’m in croatia right now and it turns out the destoyed houses in this place were serbian… it was the older guys next door neighbour.. he seemed paranoid.. tryed to grab the camera.. wanted the film.. all that stuff.. very vexatious.. almost had to get tor capa onto him..
the tourism, the reconstruction here in croatia is a very thin veil.. the hatred still exists strong as ever in some quarters.. the devestation has not been entirely cleared up.. the countryside is still recovering… and some croatians may well have reason to be protective and paranoid with regards to what happened to their serbian neighbours, regardless of how attrocious their own predicament 10 or more years ago.
it really was a neighbour vs neighbour war..
okay.. will blog photos tomorrow and post link here.
next up – more reconstruction.. punk culture and the reconnection of the young here.. the northern border dispute between croatia and slovinia which has prevented CR from joining the EU this year.. and, of course, a little tourism, colonialism and the wrist banded, all inclusive, too white tourists who seem to have no interest in where they are, or where their money is going, (in homage to martin parr),
serbia in a couple of weeks.. onward.. loving.. living.
pea’s n chips.
david
Mike. with all respect, What utter nonsense.
Maybe the last one on the list should be: Reading endless lists of truisms will not make you a better person. :) just a thought.
John
hmm..i JUST now posted this and for some really weird reason it posted in ¨older comments¨time stamped 8:54 am..and um, i´m eating lunch and know damned well it´s almost 1pm my time so..wow..that´s weird..
kathleen fonseca
June 11, 2009 at 8:54 am
In the Mood for Love is sorta like The White Family taken to the next level. Had a twitchy ¨fly on the wall¨ feeling when i saw The White Family and felt even twitchier when i viewed In the Mood for Love. Haven´t resolved this, have to think about it so haven´t commented on this last essay yet. Yes, reality show kind of expresses my discomfort. I wouldn´t watch this stuff on tv, do i want to see it in photos and if i do, why and when does it cross the line? I guess all our lines are in different places. Am thinking about mine.
best
kat-
John,
:) Funny!
Or how about “Blindness to truth is a moral failing.”
Off the door, but Kat, following what you wrote (and not in contradiction), I am wondering if sometimes we do not try too hard to reconsider, redeem an essay for the wrong reasons (even if they are good enough!!!). Like: What (s)he meant, what it’s all about, what i think about this type of subject, before… Now, ect…
The wrong reasons being to reconsider anything else but the photos, the photography. IMO, this is where the same subject (voyeur or/and/vs close intimacy) in the same style (fuzzy, blurry, grainy) can deliver different opinions. I want the damned pictures to get me somewhere. I do not want to look at anything, I want to feel. The problem with “intimacy” subjects is that it is way too easy to feign feeling, on any side of the camera and on any side of the maker/viewer. yet, utlimately, the work will stand on its photography, not the stance, the subject, the access. And even more, its photos.
It is, IMO, hard to reconsider a first so-so impression on a photo, trust your feelings kind of thing, go from rejection/dislike/indifference to “eureka, I love it!”. Unless, there is something that intrigues you, that you don’t quite get, that irritates you, etc… (in the photo proper, not anything else), something that has planted a seed in you even if you don’t quite get it (as it di for me at first with Parr or Eggleston, for ex.).
very simply my problem with many EPF finalists. Too many photos of something (usually found in the text…), and not enough photos of nothing but what is in the frame, and grabs me.
I meant: and even more, will stand ON its photos.
I’ll be glad when we get past the EPF finalists and return to our regular programming, which was really more interesting.
What is striking to me in all the eleven essays is that they all work on just one level. I mean, in no single essay there is space for nuances. They all seem to work towards a single goal. Of course there are some good images in them, but the stories are too thin.
I think this is due to the pressure to “be there in your own personal way” in the world of photography. This pressure makes this “own personal way” just and only a style, with not much deeper ground.
Koudelka didn’t care about being recognized. The most important thing is to photograph and dig deep in it. As for every medium if you want to produce really good work. But with these finalists I have the impression they are too connected with what is being considered as good in the world of photography.
They almost all have something wich is rather ok. But it all lacks this sparkle. There is not a single essay which didn’t bore me. I say this objectively. Not because I am not a finalist.
Can the reason be that we live in a world of fast communication where we all think we should outmatch the others to “be there”? Every essay seems too much like a product to me which you buy in a store. Too single-sided.
“Koudelka didn’t care about being recognized”
??? how do u know ? :)
mike. Again its a completely meaningless sentence.(unless of course its aim is to provoke response) In a roundabout way a lot of those statements remind me of the old 12 step circular logic arguments. Open ended.
HERVE. The picture is everything in my book. If it does not hold within the confines of its frame, then no amount of words can salvage that. If it does, words can compliment, add salt if you like, and yes, occasionally they are even a nesecsity. But i find the ‘forcing’ of a conceptual position upon the viewer very limiting, and quite frequently a crutch to support impaired( maybe not the right word but i didnt really want to say ‘crap’) ability.
john
Maqroll ,:)
take Eric’s “Lord of the Rings” essay…for example…
How deeper can he go? He met the boxer’s family…young boxer died, funeral…
exclusive post on Roadtrips, everybody got emotional, blah… blah…
or
take the “White Family Essay”…
snorting percocet in front of the baby…….
how deeper can they go??????????????????????????
big hug
Panos. Way way way deeper. Snorting pills in front of kids was pussy where i came from. If you want top go deep in a ‘life’ story live the life a while. Donovan wylies short essay on this is deep. Larry clark nailed it back in 71. No one cares.the people themselves dont care, so just shove it right in peoples faces and make them flinch instead. MAKE them take notice.
John
Panos,
I understand what you mean. By going deeper I don’t mean to dig into a reality. But I do mean, to dig into reality and into yourself. Only from the most of reality and the most of yourself there can come some real good work.
I didn’t want to comment on one siingle essays, but I feel obliged by your question and maybe I explain myself better: Eric’s Lord of the rings is made with marvelous good technique and shows some captivating images, but it is single-sided, linear, with no nuances. Life is made og contradictions. I don’t see them in there. In koudelkas images I see them. They invite us to look into a universe which is his and only his and could be no one elses because it is the most of him and the world.
The white family essay. I didn’t get the bad editing for EPF compared to his website. But that’s another thing. There are some good images there on his website, but neither very good. But I feel no person behind the camera. I do feel that with Alvarez Bravo, Alex Webb, Koudelka, even Stephen Shore, and…
Going deeper has to do with a vision on our reality which doesn’t confirm we all already now. Therefore one has to go solo.
The documentary essays have the same lack as the poetical essays: they are rather flat. They don’t let you enter into another way of looking at the world, another universe. They only show images put together with “an own style”. Just like products. I probably exagerate, but this is to make my point clear.
Panos, with deeper I don’t mean you should go hard or more trash. I mean deeper into a subject. Get the nuances. The contradictions.
Hard and trash give seldom “deeper” stories. We almost only have one exception, Nachtwey. Most of the other just go for the obvious. AFP stuff I mean.
No, with deeper I mean: do not hide yourself behind your subject or a style or a concept.
O.K. We’ve seen all the finalists. Before the judges announce their decision, you make the call. Which finalist should be the winner.
ok….. lets play……..Jim
top4: Lance, Eric, Cristina, Victor…
My vote is “Thirst For Grit.”
Jukka Onnela – A Kind of Error sits well above the finalists
My choice:
Alejandro (High Tide)
Carl (White family)
Michael Cristopher (Sakhalin)
BTW, I really cannot understand the comments about this or that essay not being good enough for the final selection: nobody (except David) saw the whole bunch of 1200 submissions, so how can they judge?
“utlimately, the work will stand on its photography, not the stance, the subject, the access. And even more, its photos.” -Herve
That’s an odd thing to say Herve, so the pictures have to provide value without any context? If you strip visual information of all context then you are left only with graphic designs, No?
Also Herve, please help me understand better the other things you mention specifically about my response to the essay. I think there might be a question or an insinuation that my response was just vapor. I still feel that there is something interesting going on with the photographer being implicated in the effort, again, it’s simply additional context. And again i don’t know if the benefit i collected was deliberate, or even if their is such a context device like knowing the photographer is implicated, this is why i mention that i simply enjoyed ‘that angle’ on the essay.
Just to tease you a bit Herve, if you go back an read what you wrote to me, does your query not seem more elliptical then my efforts to explain my response to the essay? Or did you just write you comment that way to instigate argument?, maybe we’ll call you Jim Junior ;-) if you want to get promoted you’ll have to antagonize as well, but i’m certain you’re too adorable to do that.
I’m conservatively voting for who i think will win:Tatiana Grigorenko
not who i want to win: Michael Christopher Brown
I think once the judges are announced i’ll take even money bets on those two, and depending on the judges, will flip them first before taking even money bets.
.
Hey joe.
Heres a thought. You said “so the pictures have to provide value without any context? If you strip visual information of all context then you are left only with graphic designs, No?”
So….that print i gave you the other day…….visual information? context?…….do you know anything other than the implied narrative offered? her name? where she is? what is going on?……….and yet does it work? is it complete in and of itself without those things? Would it be better if i constructed a written narrative to explain it?
Just a thought :)
When you in london next.
john
If you strip visual information of all context then you are left only with graphic designs, No?
————————
Joe, I did not say, strip the context at all. I said the photos must stand for themselves. You can specify the context in anyway you wish, best within the frame of course, but a caption or short text is good too.
Vapor
———-
Not his you read that in it. I said you did not tell us anything about the photos, and the essay in itself.
does your query not seem more elliptical then my efforts to explain my response to the essay?
———————————
Yes, I met you where you were standing…. :-)))
Adorable? Hmmm, here’s patronizing again. There was an attempt at humour though. All we can ask for… ;-)
The EPF has showcased work that is at the highest levels, work that is truly pushing the boundaries of the medium. Amazing job everyone. How does one learn to shoot so well, by just shooting a lot, do I need to go to school?
You know that couldn’t have been Cartier-Bresson as he died in August 2004. It may have been his daughter Melanie.
I think we could ask David if next year, we can have a BURN grant. people can and must choose between the EPF, and the BURN one. The BURN one will be strictly on votes from the readership, except that to vote, you will have to sign in as a BURN judge, months before the grant is started (to avoid ballot box stuffing by friends). Actually, once having voted finalists in, we could have the BURN judges be just a few of us, and here it would have to be regular writers, people who are the life of BURN.
Grantees can choose if they stand a better chance with david or the rest of the BURN gang. there will be a fee to enter the contest, 10 or 20$, and the total will be the grant.
David will of course be allowed to criticize our BURN finalists, as brutally as we did many of his in the past month, but mainly, he would have to find the whole idea good and feasible. Since it just entered my mind in the last 24 hours, there is a good chance it’s a lousy idea that will fizzle out as fast as it came, but if anyone thinks it may stand, let’s see….
Second sentence, I meant people who submit work would have to choose, but maybe not. It can be the same, after all (brainstorming going on…)
Jim wrote, ‘real intimacy needs words to explain’. Truely spoken by someone who had no doubt never attempted such a project. I once read this interesing study done by a French sociologist who went to Africa to try and illicit spirits through and with shamanistic practices. To put a long story short, the socilogist didn’t see any spirits or apparitions during the first visit. She then decided to go back and immerse herself in the culture without playing the role of a distanced intellectual observer ie living with them, eating their food, leaving analysis behind. This time after the ritualistic chainting ceremonies (no hallucogenics were consumed) she saw by western standards unfathomable visions. So, she concluded that you have to not only immerse yourself in a project (in this case a sociological experiment) but you also have to believe in what you are doing and respect the subject’s beliefs. So Jim instead of playing the role of a bread and butter p.journalist with cool detached vision, why not try and engage with your subjects to a point where you yourself believe in not only what you are doing, but also their actions and feelings. You might suprise yourself and produce a body of work similar to what Cristina has done. Intimacy and passion were painted all over the faces of her subjects. I remember with your close cropped photograph of a native American a few days ago, what was missing was the spirit of the man. It was already there part of his being, but you had failed to capture that because you were photographing the subject as a detached observer.
Herve, you proposed a Burn grant for next year. Well, those type of people choice awards are a democratic and novel idea, but in essence are an administration nightmare fraught with problems such as ballot box stuffing. As I mentioned in previous dialogue it would be good for Burn to introduce a grant or prize decided by the ‘reader’, but I don’t think that it would be possible for the next few years as Burn is still in its infancy. It would have to accrue more administration staff to help overcome any glitches in the system. Also, with the advent of future sponsorship such a grant or prize would be more likely. Perhaps not a monetary award, more like a consolation prize for example photography equipment (not military bullet-proof vests to stop dixie stray bullets) provided by a company like Nikon or Canon. If DAH chooses to go down that road then we may see advertising slogans on the website, which is not necessarily a bad thing.
It is interesting to speculate on who will win this years EPF grant. Now Michael Christopher Brown’s Sakhalin essay would have to be a top three contender, not only due to the quality of the essay, but also because it has already taken out a Juror’s choice prize at the 2009 Santa Fe center for photography. That is certainly a grand achievement in itself and I’m not saying that will swing the judges in his favor, but it certainly adds credibility to his mission. That project competition is one of the most hotly contested awards in photography and a top position there carries a lot of weight. It was also interesting to note that Peter van Agtmael was ‘relegated’ to an Honorable mention and he comes from Magnum. I’m not implying that one photographer is better than another due to that poll position (grants and awards are so subjective after all), but Michael’s Juror’s prize lends authority to his case. So, even without the judges seeing the biographies it would be foolish to suggest that they are not aware of Michael’s success in the Sakhalin competition. It would be almost impossible NOT to remember those images.
The jurors for this EPF grant are in the business of knowing what is happening in contemporary photography circles and who is emerging. They would have done their homework before viewing these EPF essays. It is common sense and stands to reason. Human nature is a fickle thing and for an EPF juror to choose Michael’s essay would be ‘less of a burden’ for want of a better phrase, because a previous juror has already had to make that hard decision & take the responsibility.
JJ
Well, Johan. You like this one better?
http://www.39thframe.com/Powwow_3.jpg
I wouldn’t attempt a project like this one because, as I stated, I believe it is simply voyeurism. Do you not think at 58 I haven’t seriously considered issues of intimacy? That I’m some shallow, one dimensional caricature? When I express an opinion, it comes from having thought through the issue and come to conclusions about that issue. I’ve not spent my life cloistered in small town culture. I’m extremely far from a prude. Psychoanalysis of Internet posters is a losing battle, my virtual friend.
Herve
saw your reply to me but am so busy at work i can’t see straight..am going away for the weekend to shoot and won’t be back for several days..sorry i couldn’t do your reply as it deserves…next time..
Imants
I agree with your choice of Jukka Onnela..nothing has come close to the power and honesty of his essay for me.
WHERE THE HELL IS CIVILIAN???
i miss your levity, wit and insight..i hope you are ok..
besos–kat~
‘Psychoanalysis of Internet posers is a losing battle, my virtual friend’.
Jim, I would not even attempt to psychoanalyse you, but now that you mentioned it in this context it is far from a losing battle and quite the contrary. Because what has just occurred is that you have revealed more about yourself through my critique of you. In consequence you are losing that initial cariactured quality I had once assigned to you and becoming more of a virtual person with real tangible characteristics. All good at the end of the day and a positive side note for internet discussion here on Burn.
Instead of becoming virtual friends you could instead be my virtual mentor, especially considering your latest 39th frame installment, as it’s certainly a great photo revealing the spirit of that subject. A marked improvement. However, I’m not quite ready to call you ‘daddy’ just yet.
JJ
Johan, I’ve revealed nothing I haven’t revealed in multiple posts under multiple essays and photos. You’ve perhaps only recently decided I was worthy of your analysis.
Jim
Great photo by the way..wow..!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
best
kat-
Your right Jim, especially in the context of that latest 39th frame installment, as it just so happens as I was looking too deeply into that particular photograph . My comments and your photograph were unfortunately both shallow portrayals after all that didn’t expose the true nature of the subjects.
JJ
Hmmm, any recent news from LOOK3? Bloggers? Photos???
wow!!!!!?
Kat, it’s a lousy pix! Jim, sorry, I am absolutely sure you took better, steadier too, portraits that day.
It’s unsharp thru-out and not by design, the expression is that of an unguarded lapse of fatigue/stress, which could have been brought out potently, but is not here due to the unimaginative snapshot composition, just standing there (both of you). Psychology is at a strict minimum.
Herve wrote,
“It’s unsharp thru-out and not by design, the expression is that of an unguarded lapse of fatigue/stress, ”
I think what you are witnessing with Jims image, Herve, is Jim being subliminally influenced by the
blurred photo and detached ‘vacant look’ portraits he so predictably rails on about in some of the EPF finalists work :>))
I wouldn’t be surprised if he isn’t holding back some ring-flashed, obscure detail shots from inside the
pow wow contestants trailers
Herve…
i agree… a cropped photo from 55-300mm f4.5-5.6….
Almost look as a satellite shot…
reminds me of Google Earth street shots..
Hey Herve
Gotta disagree with you. Unguarded moments of real human expression are not that easy to come by in photography. We humans protect ourselves from being seen in public in any but the way we wish to be perceived. Especially a person otherwise engaged in making a public spectacle out of himself such as a clown, an actor or this guy. Any lapse in composure or decorum would be fleeting and a photographer must have extraordinary luck or else profound intuition to recognize a moment about to occur and be ready to catch it.
I am not a fan of zoom lenses but neither do i think a wonderful photo can only be taken with a camera shoved in the face of a subject. i like the photo, i think there is a wealth of experience and feeling in the suibject´s face. It´s a photo i would have been proud to take.
best to all
kat
Lakers win……
( like we didnt know!!!)
Kathleen…
its an ok newspaper shot… 1+1=2 shot..
CLOSED… but we dont subscribe and pay all this money to purchase “BURN” for those kinda “closed” shots…
:))))))))))))
big hug
Thats probably a big part of what makes selecting pictures so difficult. Detaching ourselves from the emotional power of the day. So Jims photograph obviously means a lot more and he sees a lot more than we do.
This was my problem with the last essay for EPF, i couldn’t emotionally connect with any of the pictures nore the subject matter but many people did. So subjective much of the time dont you think ?
Peter i agree…
thats why BURN is great…
thats why DAH is a Master…
its his choices…..
all we have to do is think of why?
And then we learn…
we could have not have this opportunity if David was lazy or elitist…
but now in front of our eyes he unfolds his wisdom…
we can agree or disagree all day long if we want to… but
i think the wise thing to do is think, examine and re examine his
final choices… and think, decode, learn…
he is the master anyways ,
its our choice.. we either learn or miss it..
:))))))))))))
love y’all
I think you’ve hit on the mark as what I also appreciate with this place Panos.
So revealing.
Panos,
great description.
John Gladdy, yes it was miraculous that Cartier-Bresson decided to chime in here. That makes sense because the last I heard he has gone into seclusion along with Sergio Larrain in a South American monastery that had recently got access to the net. Stories of his death were perhaps after all just rumours perpetuated by Magnum to increase his print sales and his foundation. Similar to that rumour that he had given up photography in the 70’s to concentrate on painting, when he in actual fact he was still active in photography into the 80’s.
Or, perhaps he was just tired of living in the bourgeois western society. It would be nice to think that he is down there somewhere just soaking it all up, doing his own thing away from the legend that has been created around his name. Perhaps he even works part time in the nearby Dutch Antilles and gives guided tours for elderly jaded European travellers.
JJ
Peter, Ian,
also… David mentioned somewhere…cant remember… anyway, that he had 25 essays..
for the possible 10 finalists….
so hopefully the following weeks we will see his “wider” view of things………..
im sure we will learn way more than what we learned from the 11… finals…….
Again, remember this is a grant , a fund for someone desperately needs it… not a contest…
of whats best…. actually, possibly a mix…!
:)
hi kathie and civi,
glad youve got picture taking planned for the weekend…just got back from taking pictures of everything and anything and kids frolicking in the falling snow in the middle of june..
excited to see pixes and videostream of look3 soon.. anybody got some?
Herve, Jim’s photo looks sharp as a tack on my monitor.
Nice shot Jim.
Nice shot Jim.
ok.. that was it .. im going to bed…
Jim,
That image you posted last would never make it off my camera and i’m an amateur at best, i would quickly see that either camera shake or subject movement at too slow of a shutter speed had flawed the shot.
Simple question, do you think that shot is indicative of someone with forty years of photography experience?
Judgement is judgement whether you choose to keep a photo that you got wrong or take a position on a topic.
Since you always establish credibility for your feelings with your ‘deep’ experience, how much credibility should we give your experience when you’re still producing shots like that with 40 years experience?
You can’t even chalk it up to no experience, your situation is much worse: forty years of experience that looks to have improved your game close to nothing. Jim you said you worry about the ‘new kids’ that come in looking for a job. There’s no easy way for me to tell you this, but you should be worried, those ‘new kids’ could provide loads better images than the one you posted, their professors would have failed them if they couldn’t.
So everyone’s got an opinion, there’s no reason for you not to have one, but do you think it’s still appropriate to give yours so much weight based on experience? People could really get the wrong idea, No?
Unguarded moments of real human expression are not that easy to come by in photography
———————————–
Please, please, please, Kat, read my sentences completely. I never said unguarded moments are not worthy photography, just this one is not really carrying much with it. I said why, it’s a fleeting expression that carries no special psychology/drama in itself. there is no doubt in my mind, the day must have been a great day for impromptu, unguarded shots, and as I wrote, I am sure Jim caught a few good ones. You should be able to take such pictures left and right, Kathleen (especially on special events day like that pow wow going on for hours), then pull the one that really makes you proud out of it.
Gordon, you are right. there are areas of sharpness, His left cheek is ok, and the clothes and feathers behind, a bit too off-centered then, considered it’s a portrait. The white decorations on his chest are not sharp at all. Nothing against blur, but I am sure if Jim could have nailed this one 100% tack sharp, he’d have done it. Maybe the light was too low at that particular moment, it seems like the speed (not the DOF) was slow.
Herve,
who cares…:)
Herve, just want to reaffirm my humour was to show i like you, not to patronise you, can’t say it any more clearly than that. Keep on Keeeping on.
Gladdy, yes some images are just stand-alone, and the print you gave me by far is one of them, but in pure truth i was seduced to such an extent by the two earlier renditions, first sitting on those steps, and also the version of just her back, so seeing the third made it loads more exciting.
That’s weak defence that the prior images provided a bit of context. By the way, when i see you next i want more context. Someday when i have a gallery of images from all my mates i want to at least know a little bit about the images that my son will someday fall in love with :-)
Joe, as far as the photo, I am glad I am not alone thinking as I did. It is technically sub-par, and shoddily taken (Please, anyone, open your Mc Curry book, CUBA or DIVIDED SOUL by david, Or any Allard book, and put that picture next to them…).
Yet, is there any need to be unpleasant towards Jim himself?
Panos, you see, even when you say careless things, and stuff I can’t care less about, I would never tell you “who cares”, because I always think of you as a friend, and so, I always actually care. For my friends.
not unpleasant Herve, and therefore, before Jim jumps in, it’s not an attack either.
Jim throws very strong opinions around, he always attaches to those opinions the credibility of working in the industry for forty years and doing ‘so well’ at it that he’s bought a ranch.
I’m just suggesting the work that Jim is proud to show us suggests the skill you would acquire from forty years of photography experience is entirely absent, so maybe using that same badge (more often than not) to devalue work on Burn seems a bit inappropriate and maybe even misleading.
I would even subject this deduction to mike’s school of critical thinking.
by the way Jim Powers, we used to have this campfire game when i was younger, basically you would start off with a story that was ideally a ‘bit’ unbelievable (but someone could verify it if it came down to it) and the story teller would then start extending the story until the story teller finally started fabricating things.
The object of the game was to get someone at the campfire to call ‘bullshit’ and if at that point the story-teller had tripped over into actually lying they finished their Labatt’s Blue and the person catching them out got to tell the next story, otherwise, if the story was in fact still true, the person calling bullshit had to finish their beer.
So Jim, I’m calling ‘bullshit’ to you working as a professional photographer for forty years and making enough money solely through your photography (as you suggest) without out any help from other professional or family interests, to buy your ranch and continue to make a living out of it without extensive subsidy from things (people) other than photography.
Can you provide even an inkling of evidence that what you say is entirely true? I will gladly down my pride, eat humble pie, and never show how problematic your sentiments are again if you can prove to me that you can still be taking photographs that are so poor for ranch-buying money with forty years of experience.
Even if i’m wrong, i’ve just acquired a totally unbelievable story that i can now get any reasonable person to call ‘bullshit’ on in the future, so there will still be some salvage value to my loss.
Herve, I suppose ‘unpleasant’ is in the eye of the beholder. For example I find this consistent disappointment with whatever Burn is doing at the time very unpleasant:
“I’ll be glad when we get past the EPF finalists and return to our regular programming, which was really more interesting.” –Jim Powers
Panos,
I was refering to your amusing reference to Google street view. Not the post containing the gushing praises, being of english/scottish reserve I find that kind of talk hard to swallow.
Joe
as a recent acolyte of David’s I understand your enthusiasm and defensive position to burn. I also agree with the sentiment that burn is brilliant and unchallenged in its position as a resource and access to David AH and his mentoring.
There is little need to send the rotweillers in and in fact this approach has been proved to drive contibutors away. I have in the past been quite vociferous in my approach to some of Jim’s (and Panos’s) comments and his unstinting attitude, at the end of the day my conclusion has been to ride over it and as one other poster suggested (I can’t remember the quote exactly or who said it) “let those comments hang themselves, by letting them stick out like a solitary sore thumb” I have learnt alot from this. Also have you seen David AH’s unstinting and unruffled approach to decorum even when under extreme pressure.
Jim’s picture says it all, he has condemned himself, does anyone else need to jump on that bandwagon.
If I was new subscriber to burn and had seen your post I surely would have thought this place is a closed book to me. It is not a place for freedom.
Direct and honest criticism is great we all learn from that.
The contents of your posts recently seem to have veered away from thoughtfull discussion and criticism to personal attack of anyone who might question Burn.
I can’t argue with that Ian.
I’ll get back to regular programming now.
Thank You.
Hi Joe,
I hope I don’t come across as school teachery.
mate, sometimes teachery is exactly what’s required. I’m both a little bit ashamed and a little bit glad you reminded that i used to use my energy for things a bit more positive than i just did. That goes for you to Herve, thanks.
Joe, the photo was shot during a frenetic Grand Entry dance at dusk, available light somewhere around 1/15 of a second handheld. The only hope I had was to get the face relatively sharp, but the expression on the face was worth the risk of a slightly blurred image. The expression says a lot about this tribe and their conflicted feelings about making themselves spectacle. The event is a big money maker for the reservation, yet they feel exploited by it at the same time. When this dancer dropped his guard and glared at me, it kind of summed up the whole relationship they have had with the newspaper for years.
I’m pretty much the only media that shows up anymore.
And, Joe, I don’t have anything to prove. I post here out of my interest in photography, which is all that’s required. I’ve never claimed to be a famous photographer. In fact, as I have posted numerous times, I consider myself a blue collar photographer. I go to work every day and shoot photos. Like I’ve done for 40 years. Never claimed to be a great photographer. You seem to be more concerned with Ad Hominem attacks than with photography.
And, Joe, whether you consider me a hack or not, I’m a working photographer at a time when even Pulitzer Prize winning photographers are having a hard time finding enough work to pay their bills.
Hey all
More images from LOOK3 on my blog. Sorry they are not captioned, dont have the time….
http://www.petemarovichimages.com/dispatches/
Great Stuff Peter! Thanks. Love the guy squaring off with J.N. with the cowboy hat! Please post more!!!
Don’t worry about captions, Pete, just keep ’em coming!
“Love the guy squaring off with J.N. with the cowboy hat!”
That’d be Allard …
Thanks Pete!
Thanks Young Tom :-) it’s fun seeing such candid shots of the people we’re always talking about.
PETE,
Many thanks! Terrific shots of the workshops and partying… my favorites are DAH shooting over Nachtwey’s shoulder while he signs a book; Bill Allard and James Nachtwey, ‘natch; and the very last shot of Patricia (who has been remarkably silent around here lately). Looks like a very interesting and high level of work emerging from the workshop! Keep up the good reportage…
Cheers,
Look 3 looks like great fun. I’m gonna see if I could wangle it next year.
blonde haired man,
Bryan Harvey, David’s son…..
xox
Would love to do a portrait of Natchwey. great left profile he has.
j
I see a photo, i am moved by the face, the expression under all that paint. i think about this person, what he´s doing, why he´s doing it, how he might feel about it. i couldn´t care less if parts are not tack sharp. The photo stayed on my mind as i turned off the computer. It was still on my mind this morning, much like the photos in The White Family were. No, not the same obviously as an EPF finalist but Jim´s photo struck a nerve in me as some did in The White Family. Jim´s photo was more than a document of the moment, there was insight into the subject´s state of mind. What the hell else do you all need from a photograph shot by a Pj with Jim´s newspaper background?
You all know that i´ve had my issues with Jim and his statements and opinions. but that would never get in my way of viewing his photography which frankly till now i haven´t thought too much of. You all seem to think the photo sucks. Maybe it does. Maybe i don´t know a damned thing. In which case i hang my hat on my own personal experience viewing this photo, how it made me feel and what it made me think. Especially THAT it made me feel and THAT it made me think! A lot of the EPF photos didn´t succeed in that effort.
Are you all quite sure the group diss of this photo doesn´t have to do with Jim´s overall tendency to put down almost every photo published on Burn? What, is it payback time? Panos, i have seen worse photos from you. Herve, ditto here to your chicks on parade stuff. I´ve only seen a little of Ian´s and have never seen Joe´s so can´t say much there. But all these neg comments smack suspiciously of ¨what goes around comes around¨. This might be fair to Jim but it´s not fair to his photo.
And Jim, i am so sick of the word Ad Hominem. Brings back painful memories of Latin class.
And now, because i am going away shooting some blurry photos this weekend that probably wouldn´t say a thing to you guys, i am off.
Hello Gracie, welcome back! Your kids sound happy, healthy and i bet your photos of them are beautiful memories that will be around for many years to come to bring back all the joy and spontaneity of the moment.
best all
kat-
Panos wrote,
“Herve,
who cares…:)”
Quite frankly,Panos, I’m surprised at you. ‘Who cares’ is so, well, old school.
‘Meh’ would be much more appropriate for the times :>))
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=meh
OK…back to the ‘peoples choice’ EPF voting.
For me, Carl Kiilsgaard and ‘The White Family’ embodies my interpretation of what the EPF is about.
Clearly a young rising star, in my opinion, with commitment to a subject who could/would benefit from
the grant.
The work is a bit raw and he could develop with some mentoring but there is something ‘there’ that
pulls me in.
Eric Espinosa and ‘Lord of the Rings’ would be a close second in my vote.
Michael Christopher Brown and ‘Sakhalin’ is perhaps my favorite piece but I somehow feel
he is at a more ‘developed’ stage in his career and with this feeling in mind I would opt to
award the grant to someone else
in a more ‘progressed’ stage of his career than my first two choices
Jim –
Not a bad shot for what it is, quick question though — when you went to get this guys name for the caption, did he tell you he was conflicted about making himself a spectacle, or are you editorializing?
Why thanks Kathleen. You have summed up my sentiments exactly.
Jims shots are direct and un-pretentious, like Jim. I like direct and un-pretentious.
Well crafted, unpretentioius photographs that communicate well are very hard to do. As a bonus, people will actually pay you money for them.
Jim comes home with the goods every time, all the time, no matter what the situation. Thats the difference between being a pro, and earning a living with photography, and being just someone who just wishes they could.
jared, because I have long experience with this tribe, they have made their feelings very clear to me. Since the time they opened a Casino (which brought them HUGE financial success while it was open) only to have the Texas AG shut them down nine months later, attitudes have changed. There is a lot of conflicting emotions, there.
Jim how does posting his picture here on Burn help him? How do any pictures you take of him help him? How similar do these two questions sound to your personal photographic mantra?
I don’t ask you this to show that you have double standards, i just think it’s a perfect opportunity for me to understand better your mantra since posting his picture here to show how good of a photographer you are seems to fly in the face of your mantra since it does nothing to help him.
Joe, I didn’t post the picture to show how good a photographer I am. I originally posted a snap form the Powwow because someone expressed interest in Powwows. The second was in response to a post that the original one was disconnected. I shot hundreds of frames that night.
Trust me, the guy doesn’t want my help. He would likely have preferred I hadn’t been there.
Your painting with a pretty broad brush there jim. What you’re saying is you don’t know how HE feels– he could be just tired from dancing, no? Then, what does his expression mean?
Joe, I have no illusions of greatness. I’m just a very lucky guy getting paid to do what I like to do. Your opinion of what I do is irrelevant to me.
jared, if you prefer to believe that, fine with me.
Well, I live in a place where powwow has no meaning, doesn’t exist in my vocabulary, so to click on the link and see the picture now I’m a little less ignorant and can go and look for more..
Jim,
no need for the second rather defensive comment, i didn’t say anything about the image quality of the shot, i merely wondered about the motive. What made you so defensive?
i asked the questions about your motive because i thought i might discover a shade of gray between your black and white views on the merit of photographs that allow us to learn things we wouldn’t learn without them, but also let us learn things that we as an audience can do nothing about, something you repetitively indicate as exploitative. You seem to be sharing something similar to this with us right now, no?
Joe, they are a couple of photos from a Powwow. Not a statement on Native American politics or attitudes. I posted a photo because someone was interested in Powwows. Not as a representation of my photography or as an essay on Native American life.
My photography is irrelevant for the purposes of this forum. My work is not shown here, nor is there any requirement that I even be a photographer to post here. If you disagree with my opinions, fine. I’ll defend my opinions. But this entire line of discussion about a couple of snapshots is just silly.
Kat,
not sure what my “chicks on parade” stuff is about. I did not put any link here relative to any event I enjoy covering mith my other photographying freiend in SF. Basically, I did not respond to Jim’s photo, but to a couple comments who have me really worried aout the fact that nowadays, you take any crappy stuff and along as some guy in the frame is twitching an eye, it’s a great psychological, awe-inspiring gut-wrenching portrait.
Your judgements are very subjective and mostly from projecting your imagination and sensitivity in a photo (as happened with the polaroid in front of walmart), in a way you have no interst for photography, save looking at a picture ina literal and literary way “photography”. I have no problems with that. I repeat:
I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THAT.
It is also quite OK to not care about technical qualities, people whom I respect do it constantly, Mom, tons of friends of mine, but here on BURN, I will always do as David told us: judge against the best.
Also, I wonder if you ever open photo websites, because there are zillions such photographs as Jim’s that can bowl you over as Jim’s did, and it would really be an epiphany. I am not making fun of you. Given your reaction to Jim’s photo, you’d really enjoy tons of galleries on PBase or photo.net, and I will take the liberty to send you just one you may really like.
Joe,
You have an unnatural fixation with everything that Jim posts here……
Sorry, once more, I did not edit my posts above, worse, I edited and forgot to delete a couple words.
“I have long experience with this tribe, they have made their feelings very clear to me. Since the time they opened a Casino (which brought them HUGE financial success while it was open) only to have the Texas AG shut them down nine months later, attitudes have changed. There is a lot of conflicting emotions, there.
The expression says a lot about this tribe and their conflicted feelings about making themselves spectacle. The event is a big money maker for the reservation, yet they feel exploited by it at the same time. When this dancer dropped his guard and glared at me, it kind of summed up the whole relationship they have had with the newspaper for years.
I’m pretty much the only media that shows up anymore.
Joe, they are a couple of photos from a Powwow. Not a statement on Native American politics or attitudes.”
Apart from that last sentence you sound like you do care about things that you can’t do anything about Jim and you photograph these things and you share the information with us. I’m glad you do Jim, you wouldn’t be human if you didn’t.
I just hope the next time someone else does the same thing you are doing right now (even if you wish to change your mind with the last sentence) that you (1) don’t question the photographer for exploiting the topic or (2) question David for promoting the work here.
I hope seeing that you are doing the exact same thing here helps you understand you clearly don’t subscribe to the reasoning you preach.
Last, i forgot to say the reason i decided to write about Jim’s photo is because I am actually one who is not afraid to agree with him, and though I criticized his dismissive stance, has never attacked him for being “Jim”.
JIM
the photo was shot at dusk, available light somewhere around 1/15 of a second handheld.
———————
Bingo!
PS: I can easily botch 1/250th shots as to the mannner born, 1/15th that’s…. Abstract painting in my hands. :-))))
Herve you can map all of my interest in Jim to the fact that i would prefer he celebrated photographers that have shown injustice with their photography, even if we can do nothing about it.
When Jim starts off condemning the photographer for being exploitive and also David for letting it be shown here on Burn it starts us off in a hole and sometimes prevents the photographer from ever wishing to participate in the discussion because they must first justify their motive before they discuss their work’s aspirations.
So, it may seem like i’m attacking Jim, but it is really just attempting to show the flaw in his reasoning for the sake of more healthy interaction with the work promoted on Burn.
LOOK3 pix:
Thanks Pete. Wow, look at Patricia’s punching Anton in the chest (is that one of Eric’s Ring of the Lords missing shot?).
Feisty, taking no for an answer, straight to the point, that is the Patricia that I know! ;-)
Hey, wait a minute, what happened to the DAH masks?
:-)
Joe, that was Pete Street, saying that, not me….
Jim,
I don’t believe either. I expect the journalist at the scene to either find that info out for me, or to not invent whole cloth what the man was feeling. Either or.
It is well-done at 1/15 — I’m impressed.
Jared,
I’m still keen for you and DAH to explore opinions about the Journalism program your completing.
Any movement on that?
I don’t think you can criticize David for knowing some of the finalists. This happens all of the time. MaryAnne Golon, formerly picture editor at Time, chaired the World Press Photo Jury this year and Anthony Suau won the World Press photo of the year. Suau has been on contract to Time since 1991.
It’s either Jen, Eric, or Michael – the rest is, well, I’m not sure what it is…But it’s not worthy of what I imaginged BURNMAGAZINE.ORG to be. I say that with respect for all involved, I know it’s tough. I hope LOOK3 is super-alive this year, and in the years to come…..AZ
ALL
videos from LOOK3 from A Photo Editor –
http://www.aphotoeditor.com/2009/06/12/video-from-look3-festival-of-the-photograph/
In the next post APE spells DAH’s name like he’s Kathleen Fonseca. :)
Davin,:))
dont waste your time with jealous trolls…
happens a lot here and in the web sphere in general…..
sad but nothing unusual…….
David knows tons of people… good and bad photographers…
think chris bickford, andrew sullivan, rafal.. etc..( me included )..:))))))))
did i get the EPF GRANT?
nooooooooooooooo…
does that make me a bad photog?
not necessarily!!!!!!
we will still publish the VENICE BOOK…
but why should i get funded???
i live 5 minutes from venice…….
and yes corona beer cost a lot…laughing..
am i demeaning my work?
maybe, maybe not………..
but when the “venice book” come out im prepared
to hear the same shit…..( DAH’s friend )…
ohhhhhhhhhh please…..
A fund has nothing to do with how good or bad you are as a photog..
get over it…
@ trolls: keep doing your job,promote it right and cross fingers…
like the rest of us… keep your head up and work, work, work, work, work…….
Again, take me as an example…
im DAH’s friend and NOT a finalist…….. how about that!!!!!!! as a proof…?
and about Cristina??????????
Poor girl doesnt speak a word in English…….. i promise you that……
nobody ever said she was DAH’s friend…
Look at Anton’s great work……. DAH’s friend yes… Finalist? Nooooooooooooooooooooo
jesuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuus
or Patricia, who from all of DAH’s friends I expcted would be a finalist.
I think questioning David’s honesty is just stupid. If he knows some of the finalists I would never think it was why he chose them. David knows A LOT OF PEOPLE. Many many times more than anoyone here simply due to the fact that so many people want to meet and get to know him. He has friends, acquaintances, students…so many people. It was inevitable some would be chosen for the EPF. Its simple self selection…most people he knows are photogs and want to be professionals. Therefore he knows hundreds of people like this, and they in turn would know about the EPF and Burn. I would never question David’s integrity even if I would question some of his selections for the finalists on a photographic basis only.
…or Erica, or Bob,or Medford or even DAH’s girlfriend….or…or……….
cmon on now people……DAH= Integrity …
DAH is honest ….
I guarantee this… personally……….!
or Bob’s wife…or his students…
Rafal,
totally agree….
Question his selections? Fine, absolutely fine…
but question his honesty or character????
Sad and low…
sad and low and surprise surprise, its done by anonymous trolls. David shouldn’t even bother responding to cowards who hide their names.
something i learned about Trolls….
They are usually very very close “family members”…
I wont be surprised if the tech “guru” does a quick search
and locate them…
Happened before!
Rafal, Patricia told me she did not submit for the EPF.
Panos, I am not sure what you mean by the grant not being about good or bad photographers. David explicitely said the idea behind it was about the next great photographer (his words: the next “salgado”, by which he meant not in style, but in professional/public resonance).
I think all the time he spend with one or another, is to get the greatness out of the talent he sees in them/us. I think david does not suffer half-baked efforts at being a photographer, but total commitment, ie. be the best P. you can be.
I do not think he thinks he is God’s prescient hand either. It’s not just about talent, the viewing public counts a little bit in what will promote someone to “new Salgado”. Npt anyone’s call, David’s or ours. IMO.
It’ s obvious some of us don’t quite get all of his choices. It’s OK, vive la…. DAHfference!
:-)
Rafal:
Given what you say, I then wonder then how Harvey obviously has a very different opinion? Harvey has worked at the highest levels for decades and sees great ability in these 11 finalist entries. They represent some of the of the best young photographers working today apparently according to him. I just wonder why there is such a differing of opinion between unknown photographers chiming in here and Harvey, a Magnum and National Geographic heavyweight? I would love for Harvey to explain his reasoning as so many others are so critical. I, too, am amazed at this grant. I’d love to see the other 1200 entries. There just had to be many at the finalists level or better. Where is Bendiksen, Sobol level?!
—————————-
Davin,
I love two things: running and photography. They are similar and different. The basic difference is that in running you have an objective standard that never wavers: distance and the clock. In photography there is no objectivity. I give David his dues but I have a different sense of taste than David and even within Magnum there would be a big discrepancy and I’m sure Erwitt would have chose a different top 11 than David, or what about Parr?
The deal is simple. It’s David’s grant. He can select whoever he wants as finalists. Without his name, there probably wouldn’t be such a grant. It is by its nature biased. David made the decision who qualified or who didn’t. But everyone who played knew that.
I don’t agree with most of his choices. But that doesn’t matter. He created the grant, he made the rules, he made the choice of the finalists. I don’t see the problem.
Gee, I hope we don’t see the other 1200 entries. I’d like to see some stuff here NOT associated with the grant within my lifetime.
Rafal: I agree with all you say. I too an a runner! I have been writing a bit in jest. I have no idea how some of these photographers are finalists.
Jim: why? They are simply essays? How is an EPF essay different from a non EPF essay? In a real, tangible way? You arent making any sense.
I mean when you see work by truly great photographers there usually isn’t much to argue about. I saw the work Jonas Bendiksen was doing when he was 24 as he was doing it and there was nothing to really criticize. I was amazed! He was simply doing great work and had great ideas–better than many established famous photographers. Usually really great photography is pretty much understood by all. It hits you in the gut, it set the bar impossibly high.
And then, some runners cheat, being doped….
I mean, David seems to me a very unassuming guy, what he is what you get, he trusts people too. You know, people write here about “no good deeds goes unpunished”. They are naive if they think all David has to fear is me, Jim or someone else exercicing our right to express ourselves, and without hiding who we are at that. I know about good deeds going unpunished in my life, it has nothing to do with us writing and thinking aloud, loudmouths that we can be at times.
But trolls and the sort of rumours he heard in NYC that has him banking on BURN, stuff whose goal is to smear him, here’s ignonimy. I am all for taking measures to identify who is posting such crap against a man who has done nothing but giving all his life. I am really pissed, and hurt, to tell you the truth.
Davin,
I wouldnt agree. Theres plenty of stuff on Magnum’s site I dont particularly like. Take Parr, whom I do like, wasnt he hated by nearly half of Magnum? HCB ripped his work. I like Parr, I dont like HCB’s work for example. I mean theres plenty of people who didnt get Eggleston and he is a legend.
Herve,
expose the trolls. I agree.
I dont like HCB’s work
———————–
Ok, but his ghost is the only one that can tickles david’s toes at night, over some of his finalists choices!!!! :-)))
(needed some comic relief)
June 13th, What a lucky DAY !!!
You are all Winners… YOU and YOU and YOU…
Come on, give my a break … I am DAH’S friend…that’s why I am a columnist…:)))
You people are amazing…
WHAT NOT TO LOVE !!!
P.S OUZO on the winner today…or maybe whiskey, beer, coffee,nuts…whatever…is available …:)
VIVA BURN, VIVA PHOTOGRAFIA .
MR.HARVEY THANK YOU .
Look3 …LOOKS great… I have the feeling that I am there…next to Patricia, Mr.Harvey, baby Anton,
THE BLOND surfer …and the girl with the long, long hair …hmmmmmm…
I LOVE YOU ALL…I MISS YOU ALL…KATIE,Street fighter,babe Juliette, my GRACIE and Ethan, DAVIDB ,Beate and Tor Capa,BOB BLACK, Marina and Dima Ian, Panos, Annie,Audrey, Jared, MikeR, AKAKY,Haik,Sir Sidney,Katharina, Wendy,Thodoris,Erica, Katia, AndrewB, Joe,Herve, Marcin, Preston,Herve,
CharlesP and Felix, ChrisB…oime…I am out of time…oime…you are so many…oime…I haven’t forgotten…oime…
P.S The Trolls…I guess they are coming with the territory…:))
I trust Mr.Michael Courvoisier…yeap, and KerryP…yeap…and …
LOOK3 around you …Take off your clothes and Be Happy…!!!
LOVE YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
Hi AKMA, but you can leave your hat on…
2009 SHOTS Photographers
William Albert Allard The Garment District
Ernesto Bazan BazanCuba
Chris Bickford After the Storm
Pep Bonet Forced Identity
Alejandro Chaskielberg The High Tide: The Parana River Delta
Andrew Cutraro Out Yonder
Philippe Dudouit Tuareg Rebels-Mali and Niger
Jason Eskenazi Wonderland
Mirjam Evers Reflections of the Painted
Melissa Farlow Mustangs
Saiful Huq Omi Bangladesh
Diane Cook and Len Jenshel Green Roofs
Vincent Laforet Divers, Bejing Olympic Games
Jon Lowenstein La Ola (The Wave)
Joshua Lutz Meadowlands
Davide Monteleone From Soul to Body: Russian Caucasus
Ross McDermott and Andrew Owen American Festivals Project
Paolo Pellegrin Oscar Nominees
Alex Prager The Big Valley
Shawn Rocco Cellular Obscura
Michael Rubenstein Mumbai Sperm Banks
Anthony Suau America: A Fall From Grace
Kadir van Lohuizen Katrina Diaspora
Donald Weber White Nights: Russia After the Gulag
Steve Winter Snow Leopards
Michael Wolf The Transparent City
Jessica Woolf Weighted Decisions
Christian Ziegler The Art of Deception
……….. congratulations Chris Bickford!!!!!!!!!!!
2009 WORKS Photographers
Stephen Alvarez Deep South
Ragnar Axelsson Last Days of the Artic
Peter Bialobrzeski Paradise Now
Jodi Bieber Real Beauty
Chien-Chi Chang Escape from North Korea
Richard Corman PREP
Jessica Dimmock Paparazzi!
Mitch Epstein American Power
Natela Grigalashvili Georgian Village
Tim Hetherington Sleeping Soldiers
Todd Hido Foreclosed Homes
Carl Kiilsgaard The White Family
Yuri Kozyrev Iraq Post-Surge
Michael Nichols Big Green Taxi
Susana Raab Consumed
Brian Skerry New Zealand’s Marine Reserves
Amy Stein Domesticated
Hank Willis Thomas Unbranded
………..congratulations Carl Kiilsgaard!!!!!
http://look3.org/events/shots-works/
panos,
you forgot alejandro…
Gracie:)
correct… and Yuri… and Paolo…:)
Anyway….
im so disappointed by the absolutely ZERO coverage from this years look3…
i so miss last years David McGowans videos and photos.. and also Michael Kircher’s photos
and Anton’s links and my stoopid iphone …
( we all hanging from Pete Marovich’s mercy.:)
Again, thanks for Pete… otherwise complete darkness………..
Hey Look3 attendees …
Whats wrong??????????
Who doesn’t know DAH? The man is THE living definition of ubiquitous…seems to me the whole world would be disqualified if not knowing David was a criterion of the EPF grant. :o)
Crystal…..:))))))))
exactly…….. u nailed it…….
( i also met the Dalai Lama once…….. but no enlightenment yet…. hmmm i wonder why…laughing )
You mean it doesn’t rub off? Dang ;)
Seriously, though, after a wonderful workshop in Toronto last month, it would never occur to me to criticize David’s selections because he “knows” the finalist. There aren’t enough warm people in the world! I’m glad DAH is one of them and happy for those who, like me, are able to experience a little shower of that love.
So my feeble attempt at at least some update from LOOK3.
My first time here – a bit overwhelmed, a bit non connected, a bit just well…freaking whipped after an 8 hour drive to get here and not really knowing anyone except as online names….
I won’t go into yesterday, catch up remedial coverage to appear later (maybe).
Missed the morning talk courtesy of staying up too late last night….went and visited all the galleries…World press photo was pretty good, although I’d seen most of the images, seeing them large and hung made the usual difference in impact…Jame’s Nachtwey’s installation was very powerful and almost hard to look at – such suffering and pain, but brought to light as it should be, in typical Nachtwey style….I liked Gilles Peress’ installation…also hard-hitting in places, but in a different way. Today’s afternoon feature was Martin Parr doing a talk – excellent, humorous as always, some interested insight into how he views his work and how he approaches topics. Went to see his exhibit afterwards, it’s mostly work from his new book “luxury” (to summarize his explanation, everyone covers poverty and hunger, so he wanted to turn it around and cover luxury and the wealthy) and he treats it with the same irreverent humor….
Tonight was the slideshow in the pavillion…Chris Bickford’s essay, shown second, rocked….a few images that weren’t in the burn version that I liked, and a video intro and epilogue featuring Chris himself….
Some other excellent essays, a few that made me go “huh?”, some concepts I found interesting (most notably probably “Transparent City”, essentially based on alternating shots/sequences of shots of fairly close night skylines and then the people visible throguh the windows in the skyline…sounds creepier than it came across) and one that, to me, was completely unrelated single images trying to be sewn together….but what do I know?
Logistically….rain has held off for the most part, at least we’re not all walking around with our cameras constantly in plastic bags….Gina is everywhere at the same time it seems…she got me registered, then was in the theater when I walked in, then later was out selling LOOK3/burn stickers on the patio (what happens at LOOK3 stays at LOOK3…(and ends up on burn)).
If you’ve never been here, it sort of sucks having to either drive or cab back to the hotel every night….wish I had been able to stay within walking distance. What a wonderful environment, though…perfect for an event like this….
Tomorrow morning DAH is one of the morning talks, and the EPF winner will be announced….I’m sure Anton has figured out a way to post the winner real-time…
more later when i’m more enthused. And I have pictures I can post as well….
a.
a.
Can anyone film David’s lecture, even with a lousy little compact?
I did the work on his dancing skills, very low budget movies :-))), someone should step up to the plate and do the same about his conference skills!
That would be sycophantastic! :-)
Herve, I would but have no video capability, not even on my cell phone.
But at least a couple of the burn folks that are here are shooting with 5D MkIIs, which I think do HD video….
a.
Thanks Andrew, sound frenetic.
Joe,
David and I emailed each other briefly before the whole EPF and LOOk3 (and my final exams :/) train started moving. I’m sure we’ll be able to get more in-depth after all this. Nice memory…
Thank you all So much for the continued live coverage…hmmm…
IS ANYBODY OUT THERE ???
BURNIANS…we need some coverage…videos, polaroid photos,iphone photos…
I wonder what it would happen to us if you weren’t photographers …hmmmmm…
that’s a serious subject for discussion…Anyways…
WHAT NOT TO LOVE !!!
I LOVE YOU ALLLLLL !!!
I WANT TO HUG YOU !!!
I LOVE YOU ALLLL !!! Drinks on the WINNER !!!
P.S I am traveling…I had to stop to get a signal…and all I get is ( @#$% )…?
LOVE , ALL WE NEED IS LOVE …
ALL together …
Today the BURN, the BURN is ON FIRE
Bring the LOOK3 down …cause the BURN ,THE BURN is in TOWN …
Damnit …VIVA !!!
Rise & shine, Burnians. Today is EPF WINNER day….
A few more images from LOOK3. Been pretty busy so not too many….
http://www.petemarovichimages.com/dispatches/
Morning all
Sorry to not report, there is as expected a lot going on and trying to see all the work, old friends and make new ones while also trying to shoe your own work is a full plate. I have been scrbling notes in the dark ( which I think should be the name of my blog if ever I start one ) that I will share when I have a computer and not a phone, but they are minimal cause they put the lights all the way down during the talks.
All in all lovely and wonderful, but I haven’t been to many exhibits yet.
Breakfast now. Dah at 11..
Live from the Paramount:/ epf slidesolhows now
HAPPY BIRTHDAY VISSARIA…
it’s the 13th…
Big Day today for the Skoulida family…:)
Live from Look3. Awesome intro by dah and energizing very cool mm piece for bur. Featuring lots and lots of imaGes that have appeared so far on bUrn, not just epf.
Now seeing edited Versions of each finalist. Everything is lovely on the big screen.
More soon.
Winner Alejandro!
Winner is alejandro chaskielberg.
Comgrats to him and all who participated. Amazing work by all
The end of Documentary photography.
Congratulations to Alejandro!
Thanks to Erica for posting the results here – my wife an I have been watching this thread from Mongolia and hitting refresh every five minutes for the last hour!
Has the jury been revealed yet?
oh jim…
BIG smile,
the end….
so dramatic…
its a different way of thinking..
I think its exciting…
a great way to tell a story..
captivating..
:)
**
Stop talking nonsense jim. No one is going to start making it obligatory to shoot this way. No one will make YOU do it. Look who was on the jury, do you think someone like natchwey will suddenly go all tilt-shift with his work? kinda doubt it. Its just a different take on things. Whats wrong with that?
I think ALL the participants and finalists should be congratulated on showing a good range of work and styles, but i suspect the trolls will come out from under their bridges and start bitching soon.
For the record I do not fully get a lot of what was shown either. Some of it i positively hated, which i stated on those essays. But…I dont get Soth or Parr or Egglestone either, but i do respect that they showed its possible to see things differently, and they are unquesioningly very adept at what they do and they do it with the integrity of the picture intact.
Bad work is bad work, but good work that We dont really like, or feel, is another matter altogether.
All of the finalists were firmly in the latter camp from my point of view.
PEACE
John
Jurors:
Nachtwey
Richards
Parr
Magie steber
Fred ritchen & carol naggar
Scott thode
David griffin
Gilles peress
John gossage
Don’t want to go to the trouble of real documentary? Make it up! Create Fantasy Documentary. No one knows the difference anymore, right? Reality TV. All of that. Sad.
laughing……
as JIM announced: this is the DEATH of the all in one super zoom from Sigma 18-250mm f5.6…….
And i thought i had it all covered….:))))))))))…
( ok…now selling dirty underwear in Ebay for Large Format…:)))))
Everyone will become Weegee without the flash.
The end of Documentary photography.
———————————-
As we know it…… Sometimes!
Up your feet, motherfuckers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:
Here’s our man again (some nudity…), you might want to check the rest of her LOOK3 gallery too:
http://www.pbase.com/fayewhite/image/113687382
Jim, step down from your high horse, it is all over, the best contestant won on the day.
Yes, competitions are a highly subjective event, but given the judges names there was a lot of collective wisdom pooled. It is obvious that they are looking into the future of documentary photography, and they are looking for a photographer with a particular vision of where that is headed. Whether Alejandro will take us there remains to be seen, but through the essay he has already delivered part of the product. What will be interesting is to see if this product is marketed succesfully down the road. Meaning will Alejandro dig deeper to find the content and will the photography public ‘dig’ his future work.
Whats more I find it highly amusing that you blow these loose phrases around i.e documentary photography, when you don’t even use a wide angle prime lens. Talk about double standards. Fantasy documentary seems to be your sole domain evidenced with your close cropped, telephoto, fuzzy, over saturated/exposed native American photographs. Believe it or not, you utilise this style without realising that you do it.
JJ
Wait, did I miss something? I thought the grant was titled Emerging Photographers Fund. Did it get changed to “Emerging Documentary Photographers Fund” when I wasn’t looking??
Update: this afternoons talk with Gilles was informative, although I wish he’d addressed more about background on his individual images. And the talks following DAH’s press ration were both good and incredibly informative, Simon Bruty talking about his approach and preparation for various sporting events (with illustrative images) and yolanda Cuomo and Kristi Norgaard talking about their process of making a book….
Raining now, but tonights event is under the pavillion. Hopefully the rain will stop in time for the closing party…
Good light, All
A.
Jim,
get over it.
Johan, as I posted in the other thread, few photographers are going to shoot large format, posed photos in the middle of the night and call it documentary photography. It’s going nowhere.
andrew b: ‘What, did I miss something?’
Well yes, maybe you missed Alejandro’s artist statement. Do your homework before jumping in at the deep end. On first view, people maybe mistake this as a fine art project. Yes, it is true that this grant titled Emerging Photography Fund. However, Alejandro specifically stated in his artist statement that his approach was from a documentary point of view. In consequence, that is how the judges would have approached his essay, from a documentary point of view, but with a fine art gloss. Hence, the above comments relating to his project and its place in the context of future of documentary photography. Alejandro:
‘I try to explore the limits of documentary photography using technical processes to transform the natural perception of light, colors and spaces. ‘My photographs set out to document the life and work of the islanders of the Delta’.
Jim: ‘It’s going nowhere?
Jim, do you have a portal that offers a view into the future of documentary photography? Where this style and project culminates remains to be seen. Using the tilt-shift method will place limitations on a project, but it will be interesting to see Alejandro overcomes these limitations. Your stubborn prediction is indicative of your blinkered approach to art and documentary photography as a wider genre.
JJ
Johan, while the photographer used “documentary” words, he then removed their content.
“My intention is to work with photography in the border between reality and fiction.
Photography can transform reality and produce a magical view of people and life…”
Phrases like “Transforming reality” and “a magical view of people and life” and “the border between reality and fiction” have no place in descriptions of documentary photography.
This is Art photography, not documentary photography.
Did he remove the content? Says who? You? Obviously the judges didn’t seem to think that the content was erased to an extent that it should be to ‘declassified’ to merely ‘art photography’. It is great that your chiming in here, but don’t state your opinions as if they are facts set in stone.
The artist specifically stated that he was exploring the limits of documentary photography. The judges have awarded the grant as he was successful in achieving the set objectives as outlined in his artist statement. Jim, perhaps you have to broaden your horizons with your overall definition of documentary photography.
I am so curious as to what direction this project will take. It will be interesting to see how Alejandro uses the grant to further explore in depth the region. It is an exciting prospect to see that this could be one of the future paths of documentary photography as a genre. Sean Gallagher made headway after his success last year, so I am very excited to see whether Alejandro can also utilise the grant to explore the artistic boundaries of documentary photography as a genre. I hope that these boundaries are pushed even further.
It also goes almost without saying that there are some big names among those nine judges and one would be more inclined to heed their collective wisdom than a bitter photog who never found his niche. Jim, your prosaic outlook is blurred by the stench of sour grapes, you must be kicking yourself that you didn’t think of this more varied approach to documentary photography so late in the game.
JJ
Johan, I suspect the judges did not have the artist statements and saw only the photos. That was David’s stated approach during his selection process. Perhaps they didn’t know the photographer was calling it documentary.
Jim is pretty much as well right here. The public at large view “documentary photography” as a factual interpretation of what happened. Now one can argue with the public (your audience) as much as you like but I doubt that they will listen to a bunch of photographers trying to tell them how to think and view images.
I have been showing this award stuff to 9 to 18 year olds and none saw this winner as as a documentary presentation. The 9 year olds saw The High Tide as a story as in fiction books but the bull riding one as a documentary. So it is not a matter of Jim having his head in the sand.
Whether The High Tide type of presentations becomes the norm in the future it doesn’t matter but for now the straight/traditional stuff is considered as documentation. Other stuff is another way of communicating
The photographer creates fictions, he says he creates fictions – trying to blur the boundaries between fiction and reality, and Johan continues to argue it is documentary. I don’t get it.
Storytelling is one way of communicating but others are also needed for a balanced view.
Now if I had Jimmy the Dancer(cancer),no offence Jim it’s rhyming slang I would not be too happy if the doctor told me the following story…….There is bunch of little bad guys trucking around your bowel in crazy outfits,a nd the ponice cells are trying to…..etc.
Have very much enjoyed the last 3 days at Look 3. A few images posted–www.flickr.com/photos/27930432@N08
Thanks to Patricia and Lee for letting me photograph you–I found that both of you are magnets–always surrounded by people. Not very flattering contrasty light for Patricia–sorry because you are beautiful.
So nice to meet Eric, Anton, Andrew, Brian (all but Eric in these photos), and others I did not get to spend as much time with. Thanks so much Eric for talking with me–I loved your essay and book. The photographic essays presented by David at the Masters Talks looked fantastic on the big screen–it would have been very hard to be one of the judges with so much beautiful work presented.
Laughter and tears. So grateful for the humor because without it, I don’t think I could sleep at all after seeing some of the essays. I learned today from Gilles Peress (if I got it right) not to think–it is painful to think. The insight conversation with him today and with Martin Parr were beyond funny.
We had sunshine–we had rain. It was a great experience. Thanks to all who made it happen.
This is Art photography, not documentary photography.
—————————-
BTW, I think David said he did not read the artists CV, never said all he looked at are just the photos, without the idea behind them. I mean, the grant is for continuing a specific project that IMO, needs to be stated by the P. and read by David.
Jim, I don’t think nobody cares but you if Alejandro’s work is 100% docu, or 100% art, or needs to be a bit of this and not too much of that. The judges must see docus strictly done by the rules by the dozens any month, likewise what they’re after is not somebody who can label his work correctly, but someone who shows originality and in doing may challenge our expectations. In that sense, Panos wa right yesterday, they are not after just another good photographer.
This whole tirade about Alejandro being an artist over a documentarist, so what? It’s like saying Picasso’s GUERNICA is only art, and a serious ethical breach if that was meant to relate to the extermination of a whole town bombed by the Franquists.
Jim, you suspect the judges didn’t have the artist statements? If you read the entry into the EPF the specifically ask for a title and description of the project:
‘Explain your project clearly. When jurors have to ask, ‘where was this, when was this, or why was this’? your opportunity is usually over’.
Your confusing what DAH wrote and clarified about the jurors NOT seeing the artist’s biographies; this is separate to viewing the description of the project. Now this could be verified very easily with DAH or Anton. It would be good to hear their word on this issue, so as to clarify it.
And Jim do you really think that just because the masters of documentary photography used traditional black and white silver that was printed in the darkroom that there results were alway ‘straight’. No way. They also created myths through extreme darkroom techniques and staging shots. They also created their own version of fiction. There methods were not always a truthful depiction of events, but it would more likely be bought by the ‘public’ in this day, because of its final presentation as a medium. Also, this project wasn’t juried by the public at large. The final decision to choose this essay was made by people ‘in the know’.
Imants I would not base the opinions of nine and 18 year olds as an indicative portrayal of the wider public perception of documentary photography. It is an interesting side note that they made this distinction, especially considering that the bull riding essay was photographed in black and white. Through the advent of new technology the definition of documentary photography has rapidly skewed in the past years to include shades of gray. Also, what you are arguing boils down to semantics and the wider definition of documentary photography.
For example, if Alejandro was a press photographer and was a member of the National Press Photographers Association, then his work would perhaps be considered unethical because it is staged. This is where Jim is confusing his p’s&q’s as Alejandro’s work does not encompass a photojournalist’s approach ie press. However, it does fall under the scope of documentary photography. Actually documentary photography encompasses more than candid portraits and a straight style. It usually refers to the before mentioned, however in recent years its definition has already changed significantly. Posing people is sometimes the best way to reach an objective truth. Alejandro’s work is not currently ‘the norm’ as you said, but his work already falls under the definition of documentary photography.
JJ
Johan, I never stated that I based it on 9 to 18 year olds otherwise I would have written “Based on a group of 9 to 18 year olds ……. ” So I can do without you belittling me and your I am better than you attitude.
But in saying that the wider community accepts that “documentary photography” as a factual interpretation of what happened and are not interested in clutching straws by playing semantics which is just a cop out style of arguing.
At no time did I say that it was unethical nor can I see Jim stating that it is unethical so you have made that part up yourself(ie that is your fictional part). Because someone is a member of National Press Photographers Association does not automatically make what they or its members do as being ethical as there is more to life than a western point of view. There are those cultural groups who consider some of the actions of NPPA as being unethical.
On posing, yea it is pretty much the norm whether it be a a soldier, a celeb,a politician, a street kid posing etc. What is different about Alejandro’s work is the technique and some see it as a gimick and not about photography. That’s fair enough as they are entitled to that opinion.
My stand is that it is a form of storytelling and hopefully places like deviant art etc don’t take up the technique, dumb it down and turn it into a cliche because of the wow factor, but the power of the net and it’s associated technologies give a lot of power to any one with a camera and graphic based software.
Johan,
I take andrew b’s statement
“Wait, did I miss something? I thought the grant was titled Emerging Photographers Fund. Did it get changed to “Emerging Documentary Photographers Fund” when I wasn’t looking??”
to mean that this wasnt called Emerging Documentary Photographer’s fund but simply Emerging Photographer’s Fund and that not only documentary photography could win
Jim
documentary photography is fine, but it isnt the only legit genre. Get over yourself.
Jim – “The number of photographers who will do documentary work in the middle of the night with posed photos and a large format camera will be able to be counted on one hand.”
Good point Jim, except to me it does not read as you intended. In this instance, I certainly would not equate originality with a dead end as you do, or desperation, especially given the outcome. Regardless, it is so rare to see something fresh that is both lyrical and well crafted. That some don’t get it, or more to the point, can’t fit it into a box, is further indication of its potential.
I love what Alejandro is doing.
for those debating the issues of documentary photography and posing subjects, this piece on Capa’s falling soldier may be of interest http://www.guardian.co.uk/artanddesign/audioslideshow/2009/jun/13/photography
So I did some counting today and put what I found in open office calc.
You can check my math here:
http://www.mikeopedia.org/images/Burnfrequency.ods
I counted all the comments in the “Buzz” thread, from May 17th to June 13th, a total of 29 days. At the point I counted, there were 2154 total comments.
There were a total of 96 commenters.
The top commenter was Civilian, of course, with 323 whimsical entries, or 14.99% of the total.
Runner up was Jim Powers with 205, or a whopping 9.52% of total comments.
Rounding out the top five: Mr. Harvey 112/5.199% (surprising, but it’s your blog after all…), Kathleen 110/5.10%, Herve 107/4.96%.
These five individuals made 857 collective comments, or 39.79 % of the total.
The next five:
Panos/102/4.73%
Joe/93/4.31%
imants/81/3.76%
Davin/75/3.48%
Erica/66/3.06%
These 10 individuals have made a total of 1274 comments, or 59.15%.
The next ten (bowen, akaky, marovich, nolly, black, lassal, lafleur, pruszynski. Gladdy and gracie) added 397 comments, or 18.43% of the total, less than a third of the previous ten.
And the next ten (young tom, the now absent lisa hogben, jaansen, myself, scholl, aitken, atkins, wendy, marcin, andrew b) added 199 comments, and at 9.24%, about half of the previous ten.
All the rest, 66 people, made 284 comments, or 13.18% of the total.
Eight people made over half the comments. Eight. 8.
Do you think this might indicate a problem or two?
Is Burn the agora of photographic ideas David seems to want it to be? Or has it turned into an egotistical mirror for Jim Powers, his numbers are off the chart… can he keep reality at bay with his masturbatory comments? Can Panos, with his? Or maybe Burn should be defined by Herve’s misogyny?
And this… this is Burn… after you’ve all chased everyone away, you have eight people, and not exactly smart or talented people, squabbling.
Fun times!
……but we still have a not exactly smart or talented Mike, squabbling against the 8
imants, you’re one of the 8, douchebag. Don’t you get it?
“I would not base the opinions of nine and 18 year olds as an indicative portrayal of the wider public perception of documentary photography”
Unless people wake up and realise that the future of documentary photography will rest in the hands of this section of our society then there is no hope for the future of documentary photography. They are the future consumers, so what they think is of vital concern for us all. What will make them buy/view printed matter online and in printed form, that is what we should be asking now !
Jim, I agree with much of what you say, but you’re living in a vacuum. The world is changing so fast and unless we adapt, then it’s Goodnight Irene to the genre.
I loved Alejandro’s work, at least he tried to do something different. Good luck to him !
You do have a nasty disposition there Mike …….. I wouldn’t mind seeing your images though, just to see you back up your comments.
ps I don’t call people by derogatory names as you do, grow up
imants… you need a mirror, not a pair of binoculars.
You know what I’m saying.
Boys, boys… :)
Ok, Jim — what is your beef? That it’s art? Ok, so what, as has been said before, this isn’t a documentary award.
Is it that he said he was going to push the limits of documentary… —- and then he did? How can you fault him (or the judges) for that?
Is it an ethical thing? Posed photographs being the problem? I asked you this earlier, but you conveniently skirted the question, as you always do when you don’t have an answer — but I’ll ask again.
How is posing these portraits, in substance, different from an environmental portrait posed by a photojournalist?
It is my understanding that there is an ethical problem in photojournalism when you pose a picture that looks to be REAL. Because it’s misleading to the public — they think it is an “action shot,” unposed, and it’s not.
Alejandro’s photos seem (by most everyone here) to be easily understood as posed. He’s not lying to anyone, hence no ethical dilemma. They don’t look like a caught moment. Picture an environmental portrait of a CEO posing with a framed picture of himself in front of his face. It isn’t a caught moment, it’s a posed EP — and ethically valid.
The only difference is Alejandro’s photos are better than that standard portrait, and beg us to pay attention more, get us to ask questions — which is the point of documentary anyway.
Hoping you answer.
About those images of yours or are you just a mouth flapping on the net?
Imants,
Point taken. I was going out on a tangent by using the example of the model of ethics in the national press photographers association to draw my distinction between documentary and press. I should have drawn the line in the discussion of fiction as opposed to ethics.
So back to the original point that I was making, that this essay is documentary photography.
Now the problem is when Jim is in one instance making grave nonsensical predictions that this is ‘The end of documentary photography’ and a few lines later that ‘this is art photography, not documentary photography’. Which one is it? These kind of conflicting arguments just don’t make sense. I’m also sure that making such ridiculous one line statements on the direction/end of photography@art entitles one to a sense of authority or power.
So it will be interesting to see if documentary photography still exists in say 5 years time, or whether it is doomed to fantasy land. Also, even though Burn has garnered a lot of publicity over the last months, it is almost humorous to believe that the selection of Alejandro could herald the demise of documentary photography as a genre.
It stands to reason that Mr Power’s definition of documentary photography has been heavily ‘tainted’ by his position as a newspaper press man, where the uncorrupted delivery of real events&places is more important than in a personal documentary project. I’m glad that the judges didn’t subscribe to such a narrow blinkered view. The world of documentary photography today is not as black and white as it used to be, and that is where Alejandro’s project fits in.
Finally, how many of the master photographers operated under the label of documentary photographers, yet created their own version of fiction through staged events and heavy darkroom manipulation?
JJ
Jaansen: “I would not base the opinions of nine and 18 year olds as an indicative portrayal of the wider public perception of documentary photography”.
Barrie Watts: “Unless people wake up and realise that the future of documentary photography will rest in the hands of this section of our society then there is no hope for the future of documentary photography”
Barrie Watts, get off your pedestal, spare me the lecture. At no point in this sentence or my preceeding/proceeding dialogue did I say that there opinion is not important. If you go back and retrieve your spectacles you will see that I was referring to Imants statement. I was saying that that age demographic doesn’t represent the wider mainstream views on photography. You really jumped the gun here. Do you think that I’m such an idiot to think that 9-18 year olds are not important in our collective future – that their views on photography hold no value? Perhaps following your misguided assumption, then we should ignore their opinions on education, family, environment?
It stands to reason that they are our future, but perhaps in bringing that point up, you just had the sudden foresight to realize that…? Ooops.
JJ
I would say most photographers create fiction even your good old spy cam at the local department store sees only what it wants.
Sure Jim has a narrow perspective but so do many of the public as they have little interest in photography and the fixed boundaries that haunt it. Songlines, storylines and the dreamtime are all important but I still need some of the “straight” documentary styles as a balanced view
A far as Alejando’s submission goes as I stated from the start outstanding use of colour and it runs a thread through all the work on the photographer’s site
End of documentary photography no. end of documentary pornography maybe closer to the truth
Classic documentary has worn away our eyes and bored an ugly hole through our heads. Alejandro’s perspective may be looking through that hole in the head (and in current contemporary documentary) and seeing something different which takes into account a new reality in which we perceive the truth behind the image.
I’m thinking of that great war documenter Robert Capa romanticising world war II. Great images but did they portray the reality and horror or the conflict or support an much needed lie about the heroicism of it all. Truth has many levels. Demanding that documentary photography contains unposed shots of reality with normal lighting condition etc. is utterly irrelevant. photography is more that just representing phyical reality. Alejandro is trying to represent a reality of emmotion and feeling in his images not of facts and theories.
but I still need some of the “straight” documentary styles as a balanced view
Hi Imants,
There is a polarised end to artistic storytelling and thus every flavour in between. It’s called straight photojournalism and the ethics that govern it are alive and well.
We saw just recently a perfect example of how healthy those principals still are when Jim chose to tell us ‘what’ the Native American was thinking without ever really knowing for sure, but just guessing it was politically charged. reference here
Like Jared said, without confirming what the Native was thinking it was just reporting to the public a guess at best. If Jim was a photojournalist and he did this and got caught he would have got pulled up on it and maybe even fired for captioning guesses / editorialising. It’s happened before with much better photographers.
So basically we do have the “straight” documentary styles as a balanced view: “it’s just that the facts” and if the story is not sensational, the photographs, if just straight P.J., or not so sensational.
I guess it’s a logical conclusion that art is using its strengths to bring attention to audiences general information that is not sensational without the help of interesting visual information.
Johan, I’m talking documentary photography because the photographer claims what he is doing to be documentary photography.
“My photographs set out to document the life and work of the islanders of the Delta.”
Now, I live in a rural county, and I can tell you farmers aren’t out at midnight in the dark tending their fields, ranchers aren’t out at midnight in the dark tending their cattle, folks aren’t out at midnight in the dark paddling their boats, and women aren’t rolling around (alone at least) at midnight in the dark on the bank of a river. And none of them are holding still for extended time exposures.
It is the photographer who seems to confuse Fine Art photography with documentary photography.
Mike: most forums are frequented by a relatively few active posters and thousands who read posts only. There is nothing unusual about that.
Actually, i posted at the same time as Nathaniel McMahon. His post says what i was thinking much better and makes my post less relevant. Cheers Nathaniel.
………then we have facebook etc, which will probably have more say in what the future holds than all this stuff here.
………. the kids loved Alejandro’s stuff, so he could be the future guru watch out David
That’s it for scanning today so I’m outa ere………. have fun
ps I guess Mike had nothing to present but dodgie stats and a bit of abuse, maybe next time……one can live in hope
imants, you’re one of the 8, douchebag. Don’t you get it? -mike
Mike let’s just be perfectly clear, you did just call me that? Be brave son, please confirm this.
Not even a fly on the wall would say something so silly. Have you lost your mind again?
Do you honestly think that statement would not have far reaching consequences?
Joe, do you think every war photographer walks up and asks the personal political views of each guy he photographs who is shooting at him? I’ve interacted with the situation for years and know the attitudes. It so strong that I’m the only media that shows up anymore.
But we don’t have to guess at the EPF winners intentions. He gave us his intent. He was to document the life and work of a people by creating a fiction, blurring reality and and fiction.
As the definition of documentary photography moves forward, should be we willing to accept that it encompasses both essays that are truth and essays that are fictions? Are we going to have to have a disclaimer on each work labeling it true documentary or fictional documentary, because the word documentary no longer connotes anything?
………then we have facebook etc, which will probably have more say in what the future holds than all this stuff here.
………. the kids loved Alejandro’s stuff, so he could be the future guru and why not!
That’s it for scanning today so I’m outa ere………. have fun
ps I guess Mike had nothing to present but dodgie stats and a bit of abuse, maybe next time……one can live in hope
Mike, I would say that posters calling other posters “douchebags” would discourage participation here far more than the frequency of my posts.
TO ALL,
“Don’t mind criticism. If it is untrue, disregard it; if unfair, keep from irritation; if it is ignorant, smile; if it is justified it is not criticism, learn from it.”
LET’S SMILEEEEEEEEE
Smile and laugh …cause it makes our hearts do the …dam,doum,dam,doum,doum…
Thank you Mike…for the counting !
Thank you alll…for being so nice FRIENDS cause I feel you so close to me…
I had to write all those posts cause I am the MASS AUDIENCE…
I repeat …MASS AUDIENCE …medium format :))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Smile…hi Etrouko, hi KATIE, hi myGracie, hi Davidb,hi BoBb…………….
I’ve never followed “the giving of a grant” as close as here on burn, so I don’t really know, but every grant given is “the end” of something? Or every grant will change our mind and way to see, or changes photography (in cases of grants given for photography)? Has last years EPF really changed something?
Hi Jim, Hi Panos, hi Joe,hi jared, hi Haik. hi Wendy…
LOVE YOU
Jim Powers:
“and women aren’t rolling around (alone at least) at midnight in the dark on the bank of a river. And none of them are holding still for extended time exposures”.
I have to say Jim, that comment is one of your best. Pure poetry. It is worth its weight in gold. It makes up for all of your previous negativity, well almost.
In hindsight given the difficult situation in Texas regarding the acquistion of women, I’m sure that you could use some of your ‘Powers persuasion’ on them, the kind that is so evident here on Burn. Just wear them down with a ton of pointless text messages. Alternatively, take them to Taco Bell and philisophize over candle light on the impending death of documentary photography and the immigrant situation, while munching down swiss enchiladas and sipping bottomless strawberry margheritas & shots of tequila. Use the noctilux for capturing that low lit dinner and the large format for long exposures during the inevitable roll on the riverbank. Keep the Leica handy for alligators. Where there is a will there is a way.
Too much excitement here on Burn for one day I must say.
JJ
I try to avoid women who hang out at midnight on the banks of alligator infested rivers. A little too much excitement for this old guy. ;)
Come on …
swiss enchiladas …
strawberry margaritas
women and candle light …
WHAT NOT TO LOVE !!! hi JohanJ
P.S I love the high end of conversations…!!!
please, keep it up…I am still looking for sponsors…:)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
I’m not anonymous Jim.
In case you missed it, maybe you were sleeping…
https://www.burnmagazine.org/dialogue/2009/05/buzz/comment-page-44/#comment-42894
Herve’s misogyny?
———————-
?!?!?
where in the hell is this coming from? mysogyny?… That would make every woman who knows me laugh. If you wish, Mike, I will give you some e-mail addresses and you can check with them.
Or you can stop holding grudges against people you have never met and as far as I remember, never got personal with you, too.
last, “Mike”, if insulting people, you could also post not anonymously, less cowardly.
jared, I’ve responded to this multiple times. The photographer himself said he was documenting the life and work of these people. Then he follows up that he is trying to blur reality and fiction. So which is it?
We used to have a general of all ethics.
Now we have a new nasty attacking Super Troll.
Her name is MIKE.
She or he attacked again early today calling
IMANTS and JIM POWERS a “DOUCHEBAG”.
We need a manifesto of good manner.
What if mike is that douche.?
Hahahahahahaha
Yes Father Fly!
That mike Douchebag calls everybody else Douchebags needs to be banned.
She is probably sad because her essay didn’t make it but mr.Harvey if you
read this , remove that lady troll under the popular American name “mike”.
She calls everyone a douche and she had so much time in her hands that
She counted everybody’s comments three times just to find out.? What?
That poor Imants and poor Jim are douchbags and masturbators.
I’m the SON OF A FLY.
I’m not playing. I’m here to bring justice and force everybody to behave.
We need a manifesto.
Punish that homophobic lady Mike-troll that attacked HERVE calling him
a misogynist douchbag.
promise: I won’t leave until justice prevails.
Mike, I would say that posters calling other posters “douchebags” would discourage participation here far more than the frequency of my posts.
—————————————
Ah, the real Mike did come thru. If it relates to a woman’s body, it definitely is a worthy insult to throw at people. And I am the mysogynist?…
Next thing you know, Logos will jump in here. Strange place today.
Herve,
Don’t get upset..
It’s just mike…
Laughing:)))))))))
intellectualizing the blog..;)
Calling people like Imants douch…
and Jim a “self pleasurer”…!!!!!
Ahhhh that epf thing brought a lot of pain to some
out there…:(
So Herve u must get your title too.:))
According to MIKE u hate women and panos is a
Homophobic …. Imants is a douchebag and Jim
is a “handy man”…
Viva intellectualism…:)
Laughing..
Happy Sunday y’all…
and kill some flies when u have any spare time..
Laughing more
Panos, have you not met mike?
@Joe: absolutely
Just wanted to make sure i had the right person, thank Panos.
…. but you know… thats the thing with Troll names…
Except from STUPID PHOTOG & the CIVILIAN that i both respect AND follow…
all the rest of the Flies??? i dont know… and so many “mikes”…???
I dont know who is who anymore… Tired and confused….
About the “mike” i think i knew we had a resolution about a month ago…
now another “mike” , a new “mike” is attacking
Herve, Jim, DAH ( 8% of blah blahers ) and me as a “self lover”………
I dont know who is who anymore Joe…
Im lost….
Why would anyone sit down and COUNT , SEPARATE AND FILE ALL 2000 and more comments…???????
How much time in their hands….
???????????
I just hope that the new “mike” is not the other “mike”….
( the reason i say this is because the old mike called me homophobic and the new mike
calls me a self lover… it looks that one mike is punking the other…….)
Either way its hilarious…
im not offended…
i think the new mike is also fun..
let him be… he brings fun and joy to the table..
no stupid manifestos and bullshit…
free mike
:)))))))))))))
Thanks, Panos. Where I come from, “douchebag” is a term of endearment.
Too many split personas and confusion buzzing here.
Can I help?
Best
Signund
and Herve,
The way you treated Lisa H. proves your misogyny.
Cmon Signund:)
We love u too..
U r also funny..
But please don’t go personal
with my “boy”…
:)))
Ok gotta go…
epf is over , tension released..
Any new links or photos from LOOK3..?
he brings fun and joy to the table..
———————————–
Nope, Panos. Mike’s stance is to insult people, there is absolutely, no humour, no fun or joy in her(?) posts.
So far the site had been free of such outlandish name calling and wishing to hurt people. Sure, we don’t get hurt, but this is usually the reason why I left any other forum in the past. There is no fun in being mean.
I know very well what “Mike” talked about, considering my Mysogyny. It’s when I snapped and told Lisa to stop acting like an a…e. It was one line for which I apologized, and know it was wrong to have written. If “Mike” is man or woman enough, he/she will show goodwill towards the community and apologize too, acknowledging it is a wrong way to engage people.
“Mike”, only if calling a guy such name is male-bashing. I hate women, I hate men, what’s next, self-hating masturbation? :-)
Anyway, thanks for sharing it with us, but by now, this could be something to resolve between Lisa and I, of which you have no business in.
remember that you also do all this from the very safe place of anonymity, which I am sorry to say, seems to say a lot about how unsecure you are.
I am giving the site a few days off. Right now, It is simply not fun.
Cmon Herve!!!
Don’t let people bully you
and kick u out of the door!!!
Please.. They win, we lose..
Let it be.. Whatever..:))
Here we go again….
This is why I just don’t bother anymore.
Jim, you didn’t answer my question. Please read it again.
What’s the difference between a standard envirnmental portrait and alejandros portraits, substantively?
this weekend i went to a Francesca Woodman art exhibition. i forced myself to say that i wouldn’t allow the ‘context’ of Woodman to impact my pure assessment of her work.
context like:
1.) the images were created without photoshop,
2.) her suicide at the age of 22
3.) the fact that she had produced this work by the age of 22,
4.) the fact that she was there far before Ballen and Deviant Art and there creating far more haunting images.
my ‘un-impacted’ assessment was:
“well by today’s standards these are images that have been improved on substantially.”
i also was a bit disappointed that the twenty seven images were the size of Polaroid’s. That being said, the photographs (some already sold out) were part of 40-image sets and a Polaroid-size photograph from that set was selling for no less that £3000. Do the math on the value of the 26 images and 40 instances of each image and it’s clear this work has substantial impact.
my ‘context’ impacted feelings were ‘Damn!’ this is really haunting me, not because she committed suicide or because she was so young, but it was because it seemed like the infancy of introspective photography, it seemed like the infancy of techniques that would later be used by both Ballen and then Disciples of Deviant art almost thirty years later.
so started the trip down the rabbit holes to find out more about the context of the art world at the time of Woodman’s assent. i quickly put together this was the time of Cindy Sherman’s assent. i quickly learned this Wasn’t The Infancy of Anything, it was based on loads of borrowing of work that was done far before Francesca, but prior work that was extended beautifully by Francesca.
but the most interesting rabbit hole that i find myself in right now and seeming the most relevant to some of our views regarding ‘introspective’ story telling or introspective visual work, verses unadulterated, fly on the wall, no sign of the artist, visual work, was there seemed to be a similar fork in the road back in 1980, but simply with ‘art’, not with any worry of ‘documentary’.
evidently there were essay(s) written by Douglas Crimp on the Museum’s Ruins. i’m just diving into that right now, it’s not perfectly approachable, but i’ve got a funny feeling there are some strange parallels to the here and now and ‘documentary’
Or better said ages ago by this poster somewhere else during a similar driving agenda:
“Well we have come a long way here. I see a lot of germane connections between this discussion and the dilemmas of postmodernism. It seems to be a constant background theme in this group. I think it’s fascinating. When we find a way forward in one area I think we will find a way forward in the other and I do think it will mark some kind of turning point for both humanity and photography. We are not quite there but it feels like we are getting close.
Comment posted by Agirlphotographer on October 30, 2008”
Based on a discussion Here…
Has anyone else explored what Douglas Crimp was going on about back then? Does this year’s winner show us that we are in the midst of a new endorsement of introspective story telling? Does the fact that people like Christopher Anderson find it more appealing to call themselves a “Columnist” verses a Photojournalist, possible reveal to us that the photographer’s introspective attitude is actually a missing link to the merit of the story verse a distraction of just the facts?
I don’t know, but I’m going to dive into the Ruins. Has anyone else explored this Douglas Crimp rabbit hole? Any views?
Jared, should I ever walk through a pasture at midnight and see folks frozen for minutes at a time in the fields as if they were doing work, I’ll consider alejandros work documentary. Otherwise, its fiction. Except for grip & grin presentations, I’m not in favor of posing anything.
The more introspective the work, the more you narrow the audience. Do you really want to have to explain Douglas Crimp to everyone who looks at your stuff and shrugs?
I’m old enough to remember folks sitting around in blacklight illuminated coffee houses, staring at posters of a dayglo Jesus, roach clip in hand exclaiming, “Woah, man, that’s deep!” Let’s not go there again.
Jim you are so predictable that i started writing the below sentiment as soon as i made my last post, when i finished it i refreshed the Burn page to prove my prophecy. You didn’t disappoint me. i think you’ll agree, you should just sit this one out.
“Jim i’m certain i could explain what really happens at an atomic level that creates gravity and you would never understand it, but your ignorance to the dynamics of that influence doesn’t preclude it from acting on you. This is your bliss for many other aspects of life Jim; photography included.”
Joe. i dont read photography words generally. But one day i found this in a philosophy book (baudrillard) and it summed up in one paragraph what I have been trying to achieve(mainly unsuccessfully) and what i believe to be pure, for years.
“THE ONLY GENUINELY PHOTOGRAPHIC SUBJECTS ARE THOSE WHICH ARE VIOLATED, TAKEN BY SUPRISE, DISCOVERED OR EXPOSED DESPITE THEMSELVES, THOSE WHICH SHOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN REPRESENTED BECAUSE THEY HAVE NEITHER SELF IMAGE NOR SELF CONSCIOUSNESS. THE SAVAGE-LIKE THE SAVAGE PART OF US-HAS NO REFLECTION. HE IS SAVAGELY FOREIGN TO HIMSELF. THE MOST SEDUCTIVE WOMEN ARE THE MOST SELF ESTRANGED. GOOD PHOTOGRAPHY DOES NOT REPRESENT ANYTHING: RATHER IT CAPTURES THIS NON-REPRESENTABILITY, THE OTHERNESS OF THAT WHICH IS FOREIGN TO ITSELF.
John
@ james chance:
‘here we go again’
thanks for bothering to say ‘i just dont bother anymore’
my sentiments too.
(waiting patiently for the man of the house to come back …
methinks this group is dying to have a new bone to chew on…)
kick u out of the door!!!
—————————
Hell I am, I am going to a graduation party in Berkeley. REAL LIFE, REAL FRIENDS I have known for over 20 years, my family in America. I hope you join us, sometimes. I told you about Sylvia, and also how David would find someone/thing for his american series in these people….
Panos, it’s not about me, people have been getting way too personal to each other, and arguing over and over the same thing for 2 days, with absolutely no one budging. Still going on this morning. that would be ok, but with it, way way too many bad feelings festering/lingering (and that was before I read the EPF’s morning posts!!!).
Back soon…. A few days.
John,
i hear you and the print you’ve gifted me is irrefutable evidence of that. Never before did i consider my next home purchase must include a gallery room. That being said i’m still talking about the concept of introspective story-telling. I’m talking about introspective techniques that can explode into a universal message.
The most explosive new-paradigm piece of photojournalism that a Magnum photographer has produced came from introspective story-telling and it came recently, and unfortunately i think it’s going to remain dormant for quite some time, possibly forever.
let’s imagine there was a concept called ‘Male Mid-Life Crisis’ Let’s imagine there are loads of men out there struggling with the transition from the ‘cool guy’ to becoming the ‘family guy’. It’s a transition in maturity that some men make and some don’t. It’s a transition that some make and they like it and some make, but they never accept it, and they hate it. It’s a concept that is pretty much universal for half the population at some point in their life.
how would you deliver a story that illuminated the crisis? Would you go and survey loads of men that bought new and fast cars? How would you know that the illumination succeeded? Would men that took the time to digest the work understand it better? Maybe it might even be cathartic work and they would make the transition in a more healthy fashion? Heck, the females might even understand it and help the process out.
I’m talking about Trent Parke’s “The Christmas Tree Bucket” and I think it has to be proof-positive that if you take a deeply introspective approach you can produce something that is tremendously universal and informative, and if in front of the right eyes with the right attitude (and I’m certain that is never going to be in front of a monitor) then that magic will take place, that universal enlightening will happen.
and here lies the rub. How many of us (me included) will walk into a gallery (hence the right state of mind) and experience this work?
But not seeing this work to know this to be true doesn’t make the power or universality of introspective story-telling any less valid.
Mike still waiting for those images………………eg “DOUCHEBAG” goes shopping for partner finds “GLAMBAG”
THIS IA CIVILIAN
and
THIS IS OUR COLUMN
and
I WANT RESPECT… I have written over a 500 posts in the last few months
and I am just a dyslexic, ESL, NON-photographer BURNIAN !!! Help me
I am traveling , with no good internet access …and when I come Home …LOOK what I see…:(
I HAVE FAITH on you, ALL of you, I love mikes and flies and roaches and sons…cause You are new souls
BUT we need RESPECT…as simple as that…and I WILL stand my ground and I will fight for…
LOVE and PEACE and SMILES and RED CROSS and OXFAM and SAVE THE PLANET and SAVE THE KIDS…
OUZO on ME !!!!!!!!!!!!
please,please,please …I know WE can DO BETTER …I really LOVE you ALLLLLL
joe. i dont know. And i dont know what all that stuff means. I just take pictures.
I’m not in the top 8? I mustn’t be trying enough.
Akaky,i did a quick calculation. You posted about %2.6758 last month as opposed to your usual %3.3456 for the last 5 months.And nothing regarding photography.I will never forgive you.
What do you have to say?
James old friend … I’m nearly there myself I’m afraid and I’ve been one of the biggest supporters of a non-censored and even raucous open forum. It’s so disappointing that this place has to go Lord of the Flies all the time. Civi is right, just a basic lack of respect and I wonder how you can truly be a good humanistic photographer without working on being a good human being first. It would seem that the anonymity of the net can turn even the best of people into mean drunks at times.
Tom;
I think there are some people on here who have WAY too much time on their hands. Couple that with a disrespect for others and you get the catty, nasty comments.
Also whenever the $$$’s come up it brings out even more nastiness in some people, a similar thing happenned after last year’s grant. All I can say is that it must be incredibly tiring and draining for those who are so full of anger all the time….
Take care everyone.
3 days of peace love and photography.
Lets just think about that for a while……
Ah sage words from two old school homies. Tom and the Butcher! Nice to hear from you both my friends! Yeah, I dunno where its heading… I miss the old days of a familiar friendly cosy community… sharing work whatever it was, long term project edits, or random shot from the weekend. It’s all part of progression I guess. Reminds me i’m a country boy. Its all feeling a bit big city, with big city attitude right now. Anyways i’m out for two weeks regardless. “Peace and love and photography” to to all!
James / Tom, I know a great little pub on the waterfront in Hobart where, I think we could all get back to basics.
“Peace, Love, Beer and Photography”
yeah … pretty much it … shit, wishing I could meet you guys down at the corner and buy you a drink.
Hah! … I’ll be damned Matt, great minds.
That’s classic! Ah… man, miss you guys! One day… One day… I have a rather bizarre mental picture of us all with nice woolly jumpers and thick beards (’bout 20-30 yrs down the line…) cheers-ing with thick dark foaming ales. Lovely!
It’ll be before that Chancey … but then too :))
I wish I could take good pictures…
cause I don’t wanna miss the above historic moment…Mr.James…Lovely
I am wishing too Mr.Tom Hyde …
let’s make BURN again the place that even NON-photographers.just simple Civilians
can SEE the BEST of the BEST …of what Photography has to offer …
Thank you BURNIANS !!! Keep shooting !
Hey Matt! Loving your forest work, what an opener! So interesting, this could be out my back door here in the Northwest instead of the other side of the planet. Great work, hoping you are still working on it.
yeah James, I love Moab too … walked those same trails, shoulda taken the Holga :))
Cheers Tom,
Yeah, The forests are still “The” story of Tasmania, and I am trying to do it justice.
PS: I dont think my liver can wait 20-30 years, and I’m guessing Chancey’s cant either.
We will have to have to shorten that time line…..
ha ha! Come on Matt, You can’t write yourself off like that! We have the genes brother! Generations!! We were born to imbibe! But yes, we should make it sooner rathe than later.
Matthew Newton,
I’ve spent some idle time ambling about on the waterfront in Hobart myself… back in ’95 or ’96 I think it was, just before the gunman went berserk over at Port Arthur… he made his last stand in a bed-and-breakfast in a quiet little cove I was planning to use as a sea-kayaking base for an expedition of Japanese kayakers I was trying to put together, and the place was gutted in the shoot-out… that was the end of that plan. (Come to think of it, hope that doesn’t happen here at Burn!). Got up into the forests a bit to Lakes Pedder and Gordon, all the way up the Derwent, down along the Huon River, and all around the Channel… what struck me about Tazzy was how similar it was to Western Washington and Puget Sound in topography, climate, and rural economy… apples, salmon, and timber! The sheep and the grazing land now… that’s more like northeast Oregon. Just with the seasons reversed… and only one tenth as many people. Gum trees and Huon ‘pine’ instead of Douglas fir and hemlock. But very, very similar in some ways. So what is the name of this pub of which you speak?… and is it right there facing the wharf in front of the government buildings, or further south down towards the casino?
Sydney,
I have spent time in Western Washington and further north seakayaking off Vancover Island and I agree there are many things very similar to Tasmania. Not so many big animals though. We are scared of big animals down here. Tasmania’s seem to have an affinity with that part of the world.
I am certain if you visited the waterfront in Hobart you would have seen Knopwoods Pub in the old sandstone area near the govenment buildings. In summer it has become famous as no one will drink inside, insead spilling across the footpath and onto the lawn opposite. In winter when all the tourists are gone and the weather is foul, thats when it is at its finest. Often we are the only people there, Its like the living room of my dreams! A bar, an open fire and as many mates that can make it through the sleet to talk, lie and laugh.
Matthew,
Yes, I am visualizing the area as you describe it… this is where they have the outdoor flea market during the tourist season, right? And there’s a venerable old church and a lighthouse-museum (?) on top of the hill just behind?
One thing we share with you is a long foul winter, and a good thing it is, too… otherwise the tourist hordes would never leave.
Sydney,
Yes, thats the place.
the random photo link …
Strangely Familiar, Michael Chelbin … recently published by Aperture …
http://www.michalchelbin.com/chelbin.htm
The tragedy of the commons…once again. First with Lightstalkers, now Burn. Why to the inmates always end up running the asylum?
Charlie,
I do not know. It is so sad. You get a present and rip it apart.
I just now got here to see that Alejandro won and wanted to congratulate on the other thread when I saw the latest posts …
Geeez … I tried to write a response to it for 10 min and then deleated it again. I could not have written anything that has not been said before at least 20 times. And if people write a rant without even
– reading what has been said before in regard to the topic
– leave reality standing alone in front of the door
then it is not even worth to discuss it.
Simplest thing would be, if those who think that all is so unfair and so so subjective (?!), would please, please just ignore any further grand or competition and just NOT SUBMITT. They would feel better, and the rest of us would feel better too. As simple as that.
And if they decided that they wanted to improve this world and really ACT&DO something, instead of complaining, then they could maybe come up with a grand/competition of their own. Maybe that would be an eye opener.
My Jim Powers theory after re-reading his posts over the months is this:
Jim started off trying hard to influence David into making Burn into what Jim wanted Burn to be, possibly a place where even Jim’s photos might have merit. You can find loads of evidence of this in past threads.
Jim’s now come to appreciate it won’t be what Jim wants it to be, it’s simply going to be too ‘edgy’, so rather than lose interest in Burn entirely, Jim’s rechanneled all his powers into creating friction with the community in a very genius way.
Basically, Jim’s strategy blends legitimate questions with passive aggressive antagonism; key to his strategy is to pounce in quickly and deliver his legitimate questions laced with the poisonous antagonising words as soon as new work arrives, if he didn’t deliver his poison quickly and in machine gun fashion, then the legitimate questions would come ‘without’ the poison and subsequent pain, the same questions from people more respectful of their peers.
Jim’s second strategy is to lurk and wait until someone delivers an opinion with any cracks in it, and uses those cracks to shove a crowbar into the opinion and convert it into other riot-inciting activity. Think about what the ratio of total comments are to Jim comments. Jim is on a full blown friction and/or attention campaign.
Why do you think Jim is so anxious for new essays now? They are not essays to him now they are new meat. He was salivating so hard for something new during the EPG period that he entirely overlooked that an essay has ‘always’ been up for four days. No one else is acting like such a crack-fiend for new meat? Mere coincidence? I don’t think so.
I can’t help but think of Jim as Gollum now; once Prince-like, now in his own words a stale old ‘Curmudgeon”
My questions to the community of Burn are these:
1.) Is what ever it is that Jim Powers is doing more healthy than unhealthy for creating an interdependent community of forward reaching photography enthusiasts?
2.) Are the questions Jim Powers asks or the comments he makes anything that would not occur eventually in a more graceful, peer-respecting way?
3.) Is there a way to reduce the unhealthy impact that Jim Powers has on the degree of interdependence this community is capable of?
4.) Is Jim doing exactly what is best for this community and let’s just drop this and never bring it up again?
speak now or forever hold your peace.
I wouldn’t ask for opinions, if i didn’t have one myself. Much like the need to create a policy that addressed the pollution Jim was leaving under the essays. I think the next new policy and again to deal with Jim-behaviour:
If you need to start a comment off with “Jim, “ just stop typing right there, then feel a bit ashamed that you took the bait, and hope you never feel compelled to type those four characters again.
This approach worked in the past with Jim and Jim started being a quality member of the community when he started getting ignored, but slowly and surely Jim slips back into his wicked ways and you can find loads of his wicked ways under the Emergent Grant Recipient thread, so I’m afraid Jim might be a lost cause.
That’s my feeling anyway.
zzzzZZZzzzz…
Thanks Eva.
Joe, for somebody interested in photography and who comes here for this reason, it’s tiring to have to wade through this bickering, and it takes more than just ONE person to fight. That’s all.
Joe, very inciteful, my sentiments too. My view in the long run is that it’s best to ignore.
Cheers
Ian
Eva,
this has been a real issue, I am bored of it too, but it has caused problems. Rather than dismising it, what are your opinions on rectifying it.
Cheers
Ian
didnt we have the solution , which was to keep it all here on buzz and away from the actual critique threads.(this seems to have slipped and is now spilling over into the grant recipient thread which is REALLY disrepectful to all involved) This is after all a side road ,and while someone can quite easily navigate here and jump in should they wish, it keeps the main part of the site free from the bickering ( oops debates) that seem to be bread and butter around here lately. It would be a real shame if these personality clashes and stuff derailed what is otherwise a fabulous forum for a lot of people. Keep in in the woodshed as someone once said and i think we can all express ourselves how we will. Take it out on the main drag and i think it will end in a crash.
John
Eva is correct
“it takes more than just ONE person to fight”
Except it’s not entirely correct Eva.
It’s not a ‘fight’, it’s typically one or more people ‘defending’ the merit of a photographer or photography, or Burn as a platform from well crafted insult.
But yes there are always going to be two people: an offender and a defender.
The choice is simply not to defend and that’s never going to be easy Eva when it’s something you care about. Show me someone that is not disturbed by the insults to the photographers and the platform and… well you know the rest.
Ian, I read the comments, take what makes sense to me, what I think can take me further or make me think, and leave the rest alone. To jump on every thread someone posts, dissecting it word by word, makes no sense to me. It becomes then a ping-pong match and takes nowhere.
One has an opinion, the other has a different one. Where’s the problem? Comments voicing critical opinions are often dissed or attacked (not just here), and yet, it’s those that take us further, most of the time.
Saluti :)
Joe, it’s not about offender and defender, not at the start, it’s someone expressing a differing opinion. I prefer that over the silent mass. But I don’t really want to get into this, we’re all adults, just a bit of common sense and tolerance needed I think.
Hey peeps, sorry to interrupt the bedazzling frenetic flow of this forum, but I just got published on FWAphoto.com and had to share it with ya’allz:
http://www.fwaphoto.com/#/2009-06-14/
Of course, I didn’t realized they published this photo until late yesterday, but Pwease take a looksee and then start submitting to FWA too!
Cheers burnians
-Vasilios (the quiet one)
One of the things I miss about Road Trips is that it felt friendly. You could share work, links generally worked and weren’t blocked as spam, people would comment and give ideas and overall the contributors were polite, friendly and helpful. Burn is great on many levels but it doesn’t feel friendly due to so many fights. Its one of the reasons I don’t really participate much here, compared to Road Trips. I’m thinking though that Burn should have been a place for exhibiting work and RT should have been kept for the discussions. But concerning Jim, the best thing to do is to ignore the guy. I’m tired of the Jim show, I really dont think he has any credibility, and its not because of the level of his photography, but rather due to the fact that he is a one trick pony with outdated ideas relevant to his small town in Texas and not the large world. Jim seems things through the prism of his small town paper, and I really don’t think he understands how much bigger the world is. The world is big enough to fit a lot of different ideas and approaches to photography. Jim doesn’t get it. He could be the best PJ in the world and it wouldnt matter because he has a fossilized perception of the world. Whatever he once was died in the backwoods of Texas. David, who is a brilliant photographer never died intellectually. That’s why Burn is full of so much different stuff. And whats better, Jim’s rag or Burn?
Mike,
it’s writer’s block. That’s my excuse for everything these days.
Sidney/ all
just getting my feet under me after the weekend, but will try to post some notes from a few of the talks at LOOK later today. I know I have a bit from Plachy and Peress..
Joe
#4
The continual personal attacks on Jim are very upsetting.
Jims comments are blunt, but he provides a valuable perspective.
Jim is not the problem. The problem is those who react to his comments with attacks, sarcasm, etc. It drags the tone here down. Please leave Jim alone. Can we talk about photographs now please?
Erica/all.
My (non-photographer) friend who was there said Peress is enlightened.
Seriously.
CATHY
he speaks in something like Zen koans..people either loved or hated the talk. I thought it was very rich and meaningful, but he was consciously playing cat and mouse with Mary Ann Golon…
cathy I also was there myself and I can testify that peress is far from “enlightened”. Definitely not a douche either.
I’ve always wanted to try one of those Zen koans, but I dont think they come in sugar-free, so that leaves me with the sugarless vanilla in a dish.
A verst (Russian versta, верста) is an obsolete Russian unit of length. It is defined as being 500 sazhen long, which makes a verst equal to 3500 feet (1.0668 kilometres).
In the English language, verst is singular with the normal plural versts. In Russian, the nominative singular is versta, but the form usually used with numbers is genitive plural verst — 10 verst, 25 verst, etc. — whence the English form
Gordon, do you feel a generational affinity with Jim, is that it? There’s nothing wrong with not liking the photography on Burn, that’s not why Jim is so off-putting. It’s his relentless one-liners, in triplicate — on the same essay, which can be demonstrated time and time again.
What bothers me most about Jim, is he doesn’t debate ideas. I’ve asked him direct questions at least 3 times, in which he completely ignores and restates his original, nastily composed premise. In a room full of people he would be too embarrassed by the shallowness of what he is saying to continue the argument, but from the anonymity and distance of the web, he can continue to spit out his venom. I’m disappointed that his discourse has even one backer, frankly.
I use Burn as a photojournalism student and young(ish) photographer to interact with future peers, to get ideas (and form my own). Jim would have me believe that because he’s been driving a car for 40 years that he’s akin to Dale Fucking Earnhardt — and I(we) react accordingly. Neither Stupid nor Joe fall back on their photography for the power of their ideas, and there in lies the difference between them and Jim.
Unless Wikipedia is wrong, which is a definite possibility.
Well, jared, since Stupid is anonymous, he has no photography to be evaluated. And I still don’t see what my photography has to do with it. As I’ve said repeatedly, I’m a newspaper photographer. I shoot the stuff that shows up in newspapers. In an average day, that can be anything from photos of kittens to a fire or wreck. At least I have posted photos, Stupid has not. Yes, I know he’s a well known photographer, but he won’t put himself on the line, online. He hides in the shadows.
Hi Jared
Yes, Jim and I are of the same generation. I often do not agree with Jims point of view, but I respect the fact that he calls ’em as he sees ’em. He is often blunt and dismissive, and a little cranky, and takes his curmudgeon roll seriously. Very occasionally he is offensive.
At the same time I respect his opinion, as I try to respect all opinions here. The best teachers are the ones who question and challenge you, not necessarily the ones who just heap praise.
Like it or not, Jim is one of your “photographic elders”, and deserves respect. Jim, like all your elders, has more wisdom than you realize.
The most offensive things that appear on these pages are the personal attacks, bickering, jeleous pouting, and other blah blah blah to which we are occasionally subjected to.
I’m feeling very uncomfortable writing here about Jim, (sorry Jim). It is like talking about someone as if they were not in the room within earshot.
Can we stop talking about this now and talk about making photographs?
According to the Book of Changes (‘I Jing’, ‘Ju-yeok’, or ‘Shuueki-kyou’ depending on your vernacular language), one of the world’s oldest books of wisdom, “…the best way to fight evil is to make energetic progress toward the good… If you see faults in others, be on guard against them in your own conduct…”
‘Nuff said. End of sermon.
Like you Gordon I find the most offensive things on BURN to be the constant attacks on Jim. Apart from the fact that he’s a working professional photographer for god knows how many years, and probably one of the few that posts here, he’s got an opinion and he’s entitled to express it. If certain people don’t agree with him well then respectfully disagree and move on. Go out and shoot some pictures, just do something positive.
All this negative bitching is just bringing the house down.
joe,
it is quite i think to the best of the group that you have addressed this jim issue but i have the same reaction with eva. i do not want to have to wade through the back and forth all the time and i have actually started some comment with ‘jim … ‘ and deleted it as what you have proposed.
i think i do not have to change or do anything myself since i am not the issue. i dont think it takes a brain surgeon to figure out that the vehemence in part to my reaction to jim’s reaction is how he reacts so ‘nonchalantly’ or dismissively to the photographers’ efforts here. AND not be willing to hear any of the reactions to his comments.
take for example… panos has gotten some heat these past few months here on burn as well as road trips for as long as i could dig up AND he did have work to show… but panos (who scared me to tell you the truth) has changed for the better… now im sure he’s gotten feedback from people who are close to him and probably made some suggestions that HE listened to. he has been more constructive, positive, less expletives, have had more decorum, very pleasant, very helpful…
and i think this last part is vital… the burn audience does not have to do anything. but jim certainly needs to listen to the feedback the burn audience has given him and do constructive criticism which anyone is really capable of. what i have done is ignore… but until jim… i guess there is always hope to live for.
Sidney / all
first scribbles of notes over on EPG thread
TO ANYONE WHO IS CHECKING OUT BURN:
We all congratulate Alejandro and his good work…
The past few months have been long discussions of technique and differences and references to photography greats..
There has been a lot of lovefesting and brotherly conduct and camaraderie among both real and internet and virtual friends.
There has been many intellectual worthwhile exchanges that a lot of us have followed, referred to.
The EPF has brought us a lot of good criticism on technique, notwithstanding even moral issues have been discussed as well…
Please continue to follow BURN… the current exchange and negative flavor of things are not the usual… As with any internet forum, there is always some drama, etc etc… but so you know, BURN is time worth spending when you want to see innovative, heartfelt, genuine photography..
my two cents
@Gracie,:))))))))))
Thank you… i agree……
Now regardless how much i respect and love Joe i have to agree with him this time…
Jim is a mess…but…
BUT….
i cant deny Jim’s entertaining value and dedication…
To me he looks so desperate to come out the “closet” ( photographically speaking ), that all i can do is support that effort…
Subconciously ( i think and i hope ) is pushing his boundaries…
He wouldnt be here otherwise..
Nietzche once said that:
“when you stare at the ABYSS then the ABYSS will stare back at you…”
I think that this is exactly Jim’s “drama”, i see his pain, i understand it and respect it…
when Jim doubts some or all the work here but yet doesnt leave this blog , to me at least means that he is a constant internal fight… The “old” jim hates the “new”, “out of the closet” jim and the “new” jim hates the “old” jim that always escapes and runs away..
Jim is a great psychological phenomenon to study… I have been in personality struggles like his…
Im not being sarcastic… thats why i cant take jim personal… he is fighting his own progress…
he needs this blog to sort it out… thats why he begs us, you, All of you: ” ignore me but let me speak, let me let it out”……..
this is jim’s path to enlightenment , his THERAPY… lets not stop him…
he needs this blog as much as a sex addict needs sex…
I relate…
:))))))))
big hug
Panos, Nothing so dramatic. I’m just tilting at windmills.
“Just then they came in sight of thirty or forty windmills that rise from that plain. And no sooner did Don Quixote see them that he said to his squire, “Fortune is guiding our affairs better than we ourselves could have wished. Do you see over yonder, friend Sancho, thirty or forty hulking giants? I intend to do battle with them and slay them. With their spoils we shall begin to be rich for this is a righteous war and the removal of so foul a brood from off the face of the earth is a service God will bless.”
Psychoanalyze that. :)
….and speaking about new work….
NEW LINKS COMING UP SOONEST….
1)last night THE LAKERS won… championship….
Of course i was outside the STAPLES CENTER, of course the crowd went nuts,
of course the riot police showed up, of course people got arrested…
and of course ( unlike jim ) i was NOT embedded with the cops…
2)also a new link about the last minute before a california graduation.. feelings,
fears , emotions…
3) another link coming soon about SUMO IN VENICE…
4) MORE GLAMOUR PHOTOS IN THE HOOD…. and
5) … a quinceanera or what it feels to be 15 year old spoiled brat…:))))))))
stay tuned!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
That’s what windmills are for, Jim. What I dont understand, however, is the practice of carrying an umbrella in a thunderstrom such as we are now experiencing here in our happy little burg. I was always under the impression that sticking a metal rod skywards under such conditions was an invitation to the meteorological powers that be to deep fry one’s dumbass to the nth degree and to leave the smoking carcass on the sidewalk as a warning to other low waders in the gene pool. This does not seem to be the case anymore, if the evidence provided by my looking out my window is anything to go by.
Akaky, but they make for such great pictures, human with umbrella fighting against the powers ;)
Yes, they do, Eva, but KFC looks good in pictures too and I am sure that the chickens would just as soon have missed the experience.
http://picasaweb.google.com/innerspacecowpanos/Tif02?authkey=Gv1sRgCOXDjtH56P6RDA#slideshow/5347661997945877874
SUMO IN VENICE slideshow click above
Ok, googled and found and, well, gotta agree with you, or them ;)
WHAT NOT TO LOVE !!!
I can feel that good energy is coming back towards BURNIANS…CAN U FEEL IT ???
Boomerangggggggggg
P.S love you all… I relate tooooooooooooo ALL of YOU.
Katie,street fighter where are you???????????? my Gracie is back, Panos is rolling, Davidb is close to home ( Balkans)…but I am traveling away …
Reimar is our windmill ready? cause my man,Jim would like to visit…
VIVA !!! Tonight, I am drinking soda … my liver is kicking :)))))))))))))
Sir Sidney,
I am reading everyday…
thanks again !!!
TO THE BLACK FAMILY,
ochen ochen lublu!
tvoi
P.S Sorry…I just cut and paste ……………..
LOVE YOU ,love u ,love u
Wow, Jim waited so long for a non EPF essay and all he managed was again a shallow one liner. Jim, you are too obvious.
What else is there to say. It’s an art installation, not photography.
A few snapshots I put up on from LOOK3.
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=2016268&id=1064377692&l=050da533b2
Still in awe and overwhelmed by everything I saw, heard, felt, absorbed in c’ville…
one thing I keep coming back to I find amazing….DAH took the time to look at the small stack of photos i’d brought with me….that’s not the amazing part, nor is it that he was gracious enough to sit down with me and talk through them…well, that’s amazing, but it didn’t surprise me as that is simply how he really is….
What I found amazing was that he pulled 3 shots that I had considered completely unrelated from a time/geography/story perspective out of the (small, but encouraging) “strong” stack and laid them side by side and said “now see, continue like this and you might be on to something”…
I’m still digesting and absorbing it all, hope to post some coherent thoughts on the whole look3 experience soon…
until then, good light (or dreams) to you all….
a.
andrew,
i am also happy that you are still reeling from your experience.
you are lucky that you have been shoulder to shoulder with DAH.
i find it so humbling myself that people we consider great should be snobby
… but then find them more down to earth than we consider ourselves to be.
i have not met the man myself but this (BURN) and the rest of us seem to be a testimony for what he is and his reality. keep it going… and pass it on…
@DAH
Just got an email from Sean Gallagher, need you’re participation. I’m forwarding it to you @burnmagazine.com now…
a.
@gracie
reeling indeed….i was indeed honored (and told him so) to be able to meet and talk with him as we did.
The wonderful thing is, it wasn’t just interacting with DAH and the other renown, amazing photogs that were there….it was the community…the energy….and everyone participating and helping and sharing….for instance, Erica and Kelly Lynn James sat with me and talked about the same stack of images I had with me to show DAH – and their comments were very much in line with and as helpful (if not a bit more, because I wasn’t afraid to ask more technical questions with them) as with DAH….
and meeting everyone….faces with the digital personas is a very interesting thing….
we should have a burn event at every single significant photo event there is…..I’ll help coordinate if anyone thinks it’s possible.
a.
Making it work. . . on the road once again in a 2009 BMW M3 in Moldova! As DAH said, it’s all about STEALTH!
Am doing a reportage on mafiosos in Transistria. . .
Wonderful job. Well done.
To Jim/all,
I’ve been away for a while but just now glancing through posts. Someone posted something yesterday or the day before regarding Jim’s comments/opinions/way of approaching this forum. Whether or not, people like Jim and/or his photos I think many of his comments are credible. I think he sees photography the way I do, and the way many people do looking at this forum. We are all admirers of DAH and his ability to tell a story with photos that are documentary in nature but go beyond that. Some time ago I believe Jim commented about one of DAH’s photos from Cuba, the one with the little girl wearing the red shoes…rainbow behind etc. This is a great photo…call it what you like National Geographic, art, photojournalism etc. I don’t think there is anyone on this planet, photographer or non-photographer that cannot connect/feel something when seeing that photo. It is an image that requires pure talent and a personal way of seeing the world. It is a strong photo for what it is, not one that was taken to fit into an artistic category that was “hip” or new at the time. I think Jim, myself and others were/are expecting Burn to follow a trend of some type of documentary/journalistic photography that everyone can understand. I don’t mean advocating photographers to shoot the same way, but to produce works that are less conceptual and more informative. If I’m not mistaken this is what you’re getting at Jim??
go easy on Jim :-)
‘Anything goes………… and one can produce works that are conceptual and more informative”
Thanks to Johan for spending so much time analyzing the current essay. I assume, from your comments, that the essay has been life transforming for you. What more value can a photo forum have than to transform lives? Or a photographer in this case who has transformed a life? Surely an essay with the power to transform lives should have won the EPF.
How can you even compare, for example, fantasy figures frozen in a field at midnight to negatives hacked up with dull scissors? My vote goes to the dull scissors every time! And all this time wasted using them to square up the ends of film in the darkroom to make the film load easier on the reels when I could have been using them to make photos! Life changing photos.
Art rulzs!
David B,
The issue of whether Jim’s opinions are credible, is not the issue that is causing distress on this site. Common sense would dictate given the age difference and experience that yes, his opinions have more credibility than mine or perhaps other younger members on Burn. However, it is his pure spiteful and nasty way of leaving two line critiques that is upsetting people.
This is not about an issue of credibility, for example: whether he worked in the industry as long as he said he did, his awards, or a portfolio that is lending authority to his comments, yes that can make his appearance credible. Is this all true? Who knows, but also who cares.
The problem here in case you haven’t noticed, is his delivery of words under the essays, as the intention is to harm discussion rather than initiate quality photographic dialogue. He is deliberately trying to upset the photographers previewed on the essay with his rancid remarks, rather than leaving a meaningful and thoughtful critique.
I also find it amusing that you think that just because he left a positive remark for DAH’s photograph that gives him free reign/permission to deliberately spite others photographs. Kind of like its okay to bite your siblings, but not the hand that feeds you. Wow, you really are caught up in his vortex.
To be honest I am appalled that there he has this recently growing list of supporters that are jumping onto his three wheeled wagon. Careful he doesn’t tip you off…
JJ
Jim,
you are an arse. Pure and simple. Youve gone from being grumpy to being offensive. At this stage you are the worst thing about this community.
David Bacher,
I wonder if you realize that David does the curating here. What you write is funny, in essence you are telling David that you know more about Harveyesque photography than he does. Thats just absurd. Burn isnt new anymore, why is it that people havent yet realized Burn isnt a magazine for a particular genre only?
Johan, were are your photos posted? I’d like to see if they give you credibility.
Thanks
And ofcourse Jim left a positive comment under DAH’s photo. Jim is a typical bully. A bully wouldnt dare speak up to someone bigger or stronger. Jim can go on and on and on about his experience and compared to young photogs being shown here he is more experienced. David’s experience blows Jim’s out of the water and Jim the bully will never dare take on David’s work the way he tries to take people down here.
O.K., Rafal, that’s too funny. I’m sure David wouldn’t agree that I’m trying to suck up to him. I actually made him lose it once. Never seen that before.
Very funny.
an example of the inanity of arguing over work is that it, ultimately, means nothing. a perfect example of why this site, unfortunately, has become so sour is that there is not a discussion or even a reasonable ‘argument’ over the merits of work or chosen award-winners or even what constitutes documentary photography, let alone the full and broad range of photography, but what has increasingly defined, sadly, this magazine is the spitting and spewing of not only childish rancour and venom but, frankly, childish and patronizing language…
jim, you are not the only one who has, frankly, debased the discussions here, however, i will call you out only on this. for a person who continually blankets his own ideas, work, and belief system in the effort to respectfully document the world, a ‘blue collar photographer’ you tend to write with the most aggressively elist, arrogant and obnoxious language possible, demeaning and dismissing anything that doesn’t fit your purview of things. for example, your comment above
“negatives hacked up with dull scissors? My vote goes to the dull scissors every time! And all this time wasted using them to square up the ends of film in the darkroom to make the film load easier on the reels when I could have been using them to make photos! Life changing photos..”
is not only a ridiculously arrogant and condescending attack against Marina’s work but also for any other photographer that connected with it. That sad truth about your behavior here is that you act all self-righteous when it comes to the integrity of photography’s mission and yet act, frankly, like a sullied, 9 year old bully….i no longer get angry or upset with you at all…you’re simply as cowardly as any other cynic who prefers to demean, but the funny thing is that for a person who has time and time again considered his responsibility here as a contributor in support of David’s vision/generosity, demeaning contributors is in fact an attack on David himself personally. End of story. You do not have to like or understand or even believe in any work that is published here, or anywhere else, but if david invited you to his home and that you trashed his friends, the way he designed his home, the food he prepared for you, all the while extolling his virtues as a photographer and as a ‘person’ you’d be the worst kind of creature. You continually do the same…though you are not alone.
call if what you will, i’d have a lot more respect for you if you were not so cowardly.
you are not the sole reason, but are part of the problem of why i have resigned ….no matter what, each of us is responsibile for our behavior toward others…whether real or pixelated….
……. it’s time I put myself on my ignore list, ………it will save me wasting my time by not having to read this post
Bob, DAH is, indeed, a great photographer. Perhaps, IMHO, one of the best ever. But what’s that got to do with it?
Yup, I have a narrow view of what photography is. As I’ve posted before, I believe all of this self-involved, self-referential personal therapy photography is part of a trend that is going to burn down the house we live in. Make photography irrelevant. So I’m pretty passionate about the whole thing.
And if this is exclusively David’s house, then the criticisms of the forum around the web that it is frequented by folks who attach themselves to David in hopes he can make them famous might have some validity. My sense, though, is that he wouldn’t agree with your assessment above.
Sean Gallagher’s multimedia piece for the Pulitzer Center on Crisis Reporting about China’s Growing Sands:
http://www.gallagher-photo.com/content/popup/growing_sands/index.html
“I’m happy to announce that my final multimedia presentation has been uploaded onto my website. It is nearly 14mins long, so you may want grab a beverage before you begin! Don’t forget to turn up the volume.”
ALL…
there is an interesting discussion going on here….a bit complicated, but interesting….i do want to jump in, but i must in your behalf do another post and want to also include the BURN presentation from Look3 which will also be used in various ways to aid in real time real funding for photographers….
i do not see the “sour” vision of BURN that some above see…quite the contrary….i expect a percentage of negative comments…..that percentage is low compared to all the positive energy flowing in , around, under, and through our efforts at the moment…
when you see the presentation, many of you will realize in a nutshell what BURN has done already and what we will become….
stay tuned….we will post this today…..
cheers, david
ALL…
the continual bickering that is going on here is really testing the nerves to their limits. the saddest part is that mostly the discussions shifts from photography to clash of personalities and egos. rather than discussing photography and trying to better our skills, we are wasting out time in discussing various traits of different personalities here. burn being a magazine for emerging photographers, it is really really tiring for any emerging photographer to follow the dialogues here. from the senior/experienced photographers who regularly comment here, what we expect is not this cat fight but some insight so that it helps an emerging photographer in his/her pursuit. but alas! …all we get is hatred and fight amongst a few and all the thousands who are invisible yet follow this magazine regularly for learning their craft have to put up with all these. so much for the ‘freedom of expression’ – but what everybody forgets is that every freedom has a equal responsibility cast upon that person so that others’ freedom are not curtailed in the process.
the question is, when can we STOP THIS CLASH OF THE TITANS and get back to photography…?
oh please, if you guys really care, do something about it…soonest the better!
Bodo, i’ve got a great idea, kick us off on another discussion, let’s talk about something, anything different, what’s on your mind? I promise to spend loads of time thinking about it and
replying to it as long as it has something, anything, to do with photography!!! XXXXX
I don’t see the point of DAH alwasy having to raise things to discuss, it’s makes the place seem a bit creepy, like some kind of cult, when we wait around for ‘the man’ to lead us.
Joe…
Ok! let’s talk about the latest work shown here…Marina’s work! Honestly, I didn’t understand it properly and so I refrained from commenting there. But I see you commented there and you seemed to like ‘the mood’ amongst other things. Now, since I am trying to understand her work properly, give me some bullet points how one should be able to appreciate its worth. Some bullet points like what you liked in the essay…how a young photographer should appreciate works of this kind which are not readily understandable to them…I hope you understand…in fact that would be a great topic to start with…what do you say?
and Joe, kindly refer to some of the photographs in her work to illustrate your points…take your time if you need to, then I will ask you about some individual photos in the essay and why they are there..I know it’s Marina’s work…but I want to know what YOU think about them…
regards
bodo
Cool Bodo, I’m on it. I used to get scolded for deconstructing essays and not letting people know how i felt about them “On A Whole”, so i’d love nothing better than an invite to drive through them with my elemental thinking ;-)
Rafal-
I am not pretending to even consider that I know more about DAH’s work than he does…This is a stupid idea you have. Although I would say that I do have a good idea of how he sees the world after having seen most all of his articles published in NG over the past years.
I am also not trying to be on Jim’s side or anyone’s for that matter. All I’m saying is that Jim’s remarks are not all completely negative despite the fact that they may be taken that way. As he said, he has a “very narrow view” of photography. This is not a bad thing. Of course we all have different views of what is good and bad when regarding all things in life. Some people always say kind things, some people just sit in the middle, and Jim speaks his mind…why not, even if it may hurt some but at the same time encourage others. Some people may use what he says to influence their own ideas or ways of taking photos and others may ignore him.
In any case…why not just take his comments like a grain of salt
….and photo editors do not always say kind things about your work…I know this from personal experience.. case in point…Per Volker, director of photography at the Politiken newspaper in Denmark. But he does run one of the best photo oriented newspapers in the world.
I just posted scribbling notes in the dark – on Richards over at EPG Recipient thread
Still to come when I get time are Steinmitz, Peress, and Parr- if anyone is reading these..let me know, they take awhile to do.
erica,
i am reading every bit of it.
i am nonphotographer — but i dont think that matters as long as you know i am reading your notes.
also… clicking on links to look3 photos everyone has posted.
looks like a fun place… i am looking forward to 2011 edition of look 3 since 2010 wouldnt have one-sadly.
@ erica,
please keep posting the scribling notes in the dark….I’m certainly reading them, even though I was there I gather much from them.
@DAH
Please read the email I forwarded you from Sean Gallagher….we need your input.
good light all,
A.
Johan,
Are you a professional photographer, if not what do you do for a living? I can assure you there are plenty of guys like Jim who work in publications and are responsible for handing out work to freelancers. You have to learn to deal with them or not go calling on them for work.
Jim might wear blinkers but he appears to be a straight up no nonsense, no frills professional. I’ve learnt to cope with people like Jim and develop a thick skin. If he upsets you so much just ignore him. Simple as that really.
Some people can get their point across with a couple of sentences, others take a hundred. Both are valid here on Burn, in my opinion anyway….
since when did this forum become about commenters and not about photography?
Since other commenters take the comments not as what they are: critiques about the essay, but as critiques about the photographer. One thing has nothing to do with the other. If I make spectacular photography that doesn’t mean I’m a spectacular person, whereas I can be one even if my pictures all suck ;)
bugger.. did i spam the epf finalist thread yesterday?
it’s up in essays although i thought it was a new conversation thread… and now i see it’s still going here..
hmm..
still unable to view the last few essays.. including another watch of alejandros..
d
Gracie-
We are commenters commenting on photography…That’s all
good night
Erica…
I’m reading them too…
Please post more…
light is still good and is calling..just put up Steinmetz but probably won’t get to Parr or Perress till tomorrow..
TO ALL THE PHOTOGRAPHERS,
Who are out there “fighting”
BOB DYLAN – A HARD RAIN´S A GONNA FALL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ReIEDHMu0Zw&feature=related
LOVE and PHOTOGRAPHY
David,
can you give us an official account of what happened at Look3, especially the Burn angle of it. We need a new discussion.
Get a bunch of photographers in a room and eventually someone will start pissing on someone’s shoes.
You all work this stuff out, shake hands and share a beer. I have seen work here I could only imagine, if only I was smart enough to see it. I came here to expand and the gnats flying around debating the merits of a point of view is just shameless. You’re mama would have smacked your behind if you acted that way!
Keep posting great stuff David. Let these cats claw things out. I’m not leaving the adult table, but maybe it’s time for some to head over to the woodshed.
all,
i think it is a shame… that finally we have the limelight shine on BURN from the LOOK 3 exposure.. and a burn newbie comes by and sees this….
but in a good light, maybe the gnats are all bored… not much of good nasty looking wounds to nit pick about… im just waiting for the hangover ;) to be over …. waiting for the slideshow teaser for burn from look3 to show…
Wow.
I go off the grid for 3 days, and after going over the comments here that I had missed I am feeling nostalgic for my last 72 hours of high fever, night cough, and crushing headache.
I really think this all needs to just stop. The personal attacks are, in my opinion, really bringing down what David is trying to do here.
I suggest that everyone here put all of this petty bickering aside and bring the dialogue here to the level that BURN and David Alan Harvey deserve. If you are not finding anything in the magazine and the work shown here that you agree with, then please just go someplace else.
BURN needs to be a place where there is serious discussion about THE WORK. Nothing more. I for one am not interested in some song lyrics that mean something to a poster, or famous quotes from people that have never seen the work that they are posted under. I AM interested in the viewers opinion of the work as long as it is intelligently put forth. And preferably in their own words.
To all those who are using a pseudonym on their posts, I suggest that if you have something to say, then use your own name and take ownership and responsibility for it. In other words, grow up. It is not cute.
I fear that if things do not change here, we will be causing people that may be interested in funding BURN to just walk away.
OK, on another note. I am sorry I was unable to post images from the last day at LOOK. I was quite under the weather. I actually had to skip the final projection. I will try to get the images posted to my blog tonight or tomorrow.
To all of the BURN folks I met at the festival, it was a pleasure. I wish I could have spent more time talking with everyone, but with so much stuff going on… well I am sure you agree it is very hard to do.
It is a shame that we will all have to wait until 2011 to re-convene at LOOK. But it is something that I know we are all looking forward to doing.
I think the EPF grant is the only grant I have seen where people can comment all along the way through the finalist process. While this is interesting as we get to read any and everyone’s opinion, this invariably leads to disagreements and people getting annoyed at others. The open discussion format of Burn thus has its strengths and weaknesses. With the advent of blogs and Facebook and Twitter there is this hyper desire for everyone to make comments about everything. I recognize this tendency in myself and it is every easy for things to get out of hand. Humans were never connected like they are right now and I don’t necessarily think that we were meant to be quite this connected. Technology has its limits and needs to be used carefully. In the US there has always been the idea that more technology is better. Just as the culture is finally realizing that the processed, technologized food in supermarkets is making us fat and unhealthy and now there is a whole swing towards locally grown, organic food and just as Americans are finally buying smaller, more fuel efficient cars, I think there will be a swing back to a less connected life after this initial internet age has subsided a bit. So, with a discussion forum site like Burn I can easily see how the commentary can get a bit out of hand as people are able to make comments so easily in a way they never could have a few years ago. Many of the people commenting here would never have known each other and would never have been able to have seen the finalists’ work. If this grant was being given out back, say, in 2000, everyone would have mailed in prints to Harvey and that would have been it. We would have waited and in June would have gotten a letter in the mail announcing the finalists and then the winner. So, while technology is great and Burn is great and there is no reason that any of it should go away, I think maybe, like with anything, commenting needs to be done in moderation. As in maybe one thinks a bit before making a comment. It is so easy to write a comment on a forum like this without really realizing that another flesh and blood human will be reading it. I mean before all this connectivity you had to be in a person’s physical presence to say something to them and surely some of what is being said on Burn would never be uttered in real life off the internet.
Despite the noise about the comments and bickering, if you took any of it away, nobody would come here. Lots of places on the web to look at photos.
I think the main problem is that lots of folks want Roadtrips again, where a group of friends spent long nights drinkin’ and cussin’ and posting rambling posts about nothing in particular. Maybe Roadtrips should be resurrected for that as a virtual pub.
Look3 is taking next year off?! Imagine if Perpignan or Arles took a year off every 3 years! There really needs to be an American photo festival that happens every year and I guess we actually do have this now with the one in New York each May.
Davin, I think the problem at Look3 is financial. Folks just can’t afford to keep doing things like that. I believe they are hoping things will get better by 2011.
Pete S,
No, I am not a professional photographer, not even a good amateur. Answer your question? Also, I don’t appreciate your tone. ‘I can assure you that there are plenty of guys like Jim who work in publications and are responsible for handing out work to freelancers’. Really? Care to prove that? Succumbing to these outdated stereotypes, you really are in essence inadvertently and quite naively I might add, contributing to his ‘aura of persona’ that has been built on this site. When people jump on the bandwagon and bleat such frank admissions it is telling of there jejune assent to be part of this wider mode of thinking.
Quite often I meet people who follow your wide-eyed approach in another line of debate. For example, they follow streams of philisophy, adopt the jargon and then drop cliched lines in conversation. This yearning for influence in dialogue more than anything debases its direction, as the protaganist is consequently free to move without serious analysis from one bombastic admission to another. In essence it is a willfully obscurantist form of debate.
But more than anything, your ingenuous statement signals that you are just as much on the outside of the photography profession as I am. Ultimately, assumptions such as yours have the element of ‘the groupie’ attached to their whispered admission.
At the end of the day, just because I am not a professional and don’t throw my weight around with that broader notion of 40 years of ‘grizzled’ experence, that doesn’t mean I haven’t read about photography, or have nurtured an understanding of photographic history.
Jim P,
I promised myself that I wouldn’t respond to your initial cynical remarks, but you really seem to be deliberately missing the point, so here goes. I suggest you drop your astigmatic game and read again (above) carefully what I said about the issue of credibility.
This issue isn’t about the quality of the photographs that you have on offer as a poster, it is about the delivery and intent of the critique that you subsequently leave under the essays. The way you execute yours is nothing more than a tool to deprecate subsequent dialogue. I ultimately wonder why you continue to log on to this site if all of the photography you view is all in vain. Don’t play coy and ask me to clarify my initial response to David B again.
JJ
Geeze, Johan, it was you who brought up my photos. Which is why I asked about yours. And, please man, drop the stilted language. You’re giving this old camera slinger a headache!
luzz biteyear wrote under the essay: ‘i suggest another rule beside the one comment per person: no more than 20 lines per post!(i have never read them when they are longer though)
Alternatively we should perhaps have a rule preventing two line posts under the essays that aren’t related to the essays in question. Also, no one is forcing you to read longer critiques.
thanks,
JJ
So who is going to be the cop counting the words and making decisions on what is or isn’t relevant? Doesn’t seem very workable.
Obviously you have recently developed a problem understanding my text. So, read again carefully what I said above. What Luzz wrote had nothing to do with critiquing the essay that was posted. That kind of suggestion should have been posted in Bzzz dialogue. Got it? The methodology behind their statement was similar to what you use to redirect dialogue.
Also, you are the one who is mistaken that your experience in the industry allows you to run through here like a proverbial bull. Was it necessary to reinforce your misdirected cause with such cheesy lines as ‘this old camera slinger’; yeah right. Time for act 2 as your lines are wearing thin.
JJ
To the Burn people.
I just want to say how much I looked forward to viewing, and anticipating, what would be next as far as the EPF went.
I appreciate it as much for the work itself as in also seeing what you people at BURN thought were the 10 most admirable essays. So it was a learning experience for me and would of loved it to of gone on to 20.
I sincerely hope your around not only next year but onwards for decades.
Cheers to you people…
Well, I saw the light was on, and the door unlocked, so stepped in a bit, but the sound of people arguing in the living room tells me to drop by another day….
Hey! Watch it. I AM an old camera slinger. The gray hair, the wrinkles, the Australian barma, the 5D, the pot belly.
http://www.39thframe.com/jim.jpg
Jim, please give it a rest. This is not your forum! Take a step back and see how you have become critic and moderator.
I appreciate your perspective and want you to be a part of the dialog, but please, please don’t BE the dialog. Let other voices speak. This has been a wonderful place to have some give and take on quality photography discussion. I want to be a part of this and grow beyond the 30+ years I have plied this trade.
Think about it. Burn is too valuable to torch… and you are doing that! Sorry, you need to know this.
My phone number is on my website if you want to carry this further. Use my personal e-mail and have at it, but please dial it back and respect others points of view. DAH, I do not think created this place as some great social experiment for the disenchanted.
I want to interact and learn… and you?
Is there anything you can contribute other than opinion?
Call me any time. Email me any time. I worked a small paper for 7 years so I know the grind.
I’m gonna take the dog for a walk and hit a few licks on the mandolin. I’m done until this place gets squared away.
Love you Burnians
Sorry, man. I didn’t realize my little exchange with Johan was interrupting a discussion on a photo. Perhaps you were waiting on some poetry or singing?
DAH, I can no longer participate in the dialog here. I look forward to more really great work to view and ponder.
David, thank you for all of your selfless efforts. I still believe that this is a wonderful place to witness new and exciting ways of expressing the world visually.
This makes me sad. I will still look for CIVI’s nuggets but can no longer participate.
Regards,
Paul O’Mara
So you were waiting for the poetry and singing.
Jim, let me be blunt … you’re being an asshole and, since you link your online presence quite openly with your vocation, your snide and sophomoric remarks also discredit you as a newspaper professional.
Tom, :)))
All my respect to you .. There has been couple
of times you slapped my wrist back in the day
and I thank you for that..
But now it’s my turn to bring you back in order
and say , shhhhhhhh…
cmon, you are the wise cool young tom…
let jim be… He is honest… Yes we might disagree
with everything but…
But….
He is honest… Plus he has been attacked ( or caused attacks )
but, regardless.. He has every right to be here..
tom:))) please behave….:))
Big Hug!
Everybody reconsider…I found a hot spot and I got internet connection …yeaaa!!!
WE ALL LOVE BURN …I can see it from your postings…it’s up in the air.
That’s why we are here. The visual language is amazing … The SUPPORT button on the right corner
up, up there, the tiny, tiny white letters on the black canvas…hmm,
the drinks, the quotes, the farting and the laughing, the promises to meet in your homes putting photos on the magnetic walls.What not to LOVE.
BURN is a CELEBRATION, BURN is a revolution, BURN is one man’s VISION , BURN is a Universal force of energy!!!
P.S CIVI’S nuggets??? …Paul,what’s wrong with you dude…you want to punch your eye, ah, do you?
Jim …If I wasn’t that old and if I wasn’t that tall…I would have challenge you to a Sumo fight …
cause I am the poetry and the singing …what are you waiting for Ah, what ?…SKYPE me…:))
LOVE YOU FOREVER…I am out of time … KEEP IT UP…If you cannot tolerate drinking , don’t drink
DAMNIT…Breathe before you post…damnit.
NOBODY leaves the room.
AND NOW BACK TO THE REGULAR PROGRAM . PHOTOGRAFIA…focus BURNIANS…focus
Brother Panos … duly noted friend but i did not ask anyone to leave, only to contribute, and this is just too tedious to read … really. Sorry, losing faith. Sad day. On vacation. Leave a light on. Peace.
Tom:)))
I gotcha… I got you!!!
Happy vacation!
Light always on!!!
:)))
Oh…I have to tell you this …
I saw a rainbow today …a RAINBOW… I Wish you were there …
LOVE
P.S Katie , where are YOU ??? I miss you
My Gracie,BURN muse…there is Paul O’Mara …he has a mandolin …who knew
Davidb , my “Balkan” Boy …I wish I was there.
MYTHOS BeeR on Panos and Tom Hyde TODAY !!!
VIVA HAIK !!!
Jim F. Powers
“So who is going to be the cop counting the words and making decisions on what is or isn’t relevant?”
[metallic voice]THE COMPUTER. IT COUNTS WORDS AND RELEVANCY VOTES[done with heavy metal] ya, scared now?
Jim – you have a camera. Nice one.
Civi, sorry to hear about the shootings in Athens.
VIVA Ian Aitken ,
We have shootings, we have fires and then we have this …
I guess I always carry my RAINBOW glasses :
To ALL
Saturday June 20, 2009
The official opening of the New Acropolis Museum
http://www.theacropolismuseum.gr/
there is English menu .
I AM IN AWE…
and I love you ALL
Rainbow is Fire
I am BURNing Higher
…..
I know …I will go now…ssssss
“The Photographer” Didier Lefevre’s photography, and the comic book art of Emmanuel Guibert,
Well worth buying if you love the narrative
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/29/AR2009052901211.html
http://dejiridoo.com/blog1/reviews/full-reviews/the-photographer-guibert/
tom, I really don’t get it. I express opinions on the photos and will defend those opinions if challenged. The only way I can see to make folks who complain about my posts happy is to always post that I think the photos are great. I have posted positively about some of the photos and essays. But if I don’t like them, I’m going to say so.
“Your blunt posting style is going to discourage these young, tender photographers trying to make it to professional level” I’m told. But, in fact, as we’ve seen, many of these essays and singles are from award winning working pros within the range of David’s definition of “emerging.”
But in expressing my opinions, I’ve never called anyone an asshole. Do you suppose that your personal attacks raise the level of discourse?
To change gears…all this talk about Look3…who’s going to be in Perpignan for Visa this September? How about a Burn meetup at Cafe de la Poste?
What time do you wake up Jim? You’re in Texas right?
Yep. I get up about 4 a.m. CDT each morning.
I am going to Perpginan! juhuu! Just bought the plane ticket. Last year I think DAH organized a Road trip meeting, but this year BURN will rule Cafe Post!!
CIVI & ALL…
I am feeling like CIVI today…love towards ALL! :) After long delay and sweltering heat waves, monsoon seems to have arrived our city…! Ahhhh…it’s such a good feeling to get drenched in the rain…!
Why not a Burn meeting in this rain-drenched City of Joy? We can offer you mangoes as many as you can take… :)
JOE…
Waiting for your note…
Great Andrea…I’m also looking forward to Visa..Perpignan is a magical place and so are the evening slideshows.
Do you live in Berlin or Norway?
And now, a pointless screed…
I don’t own a cell phone. In fact, I have never owned a cell phone and I will not own a cell phone in the future. I won’t have one of the accursed things in my house. I realize that in this our modern age, where we all worship at the altar of global interconnectivity, this makes me something of an anomaly, but if wanting to maintain my sanity amid the now constant assault from the legions of people who want to reach out and touch somebody, as the old Ma Bell jingle put it, and usually for more than I am willing to pay, makes me an anomaly then who am I to argue with the label? There are worse things in life than being an anomaly; being a disk jockey comes immediately to mind, as does selling life insurance and any job related to the advertising business.
So let me make my position clear: the invention of the telephone was one of the great technological innovations in the history of humanity; the cell phone, by contrast, is an annoying and altogether unnecessary development. Why does the cell phone exist, if this is the case? Let’s not kid ourselves here; the answer is simpler than you think. Cell phones exist so that people you do not want to talk to can find you and talk to you. All other reasons are untruths, travesties, propaganda, and red herrings, when they are not out and out lies.
Once upon a time, it was possible to remove yourself from the great commercial hurly-burly of American civilization by simply going for a walk. You could relax, talk to your neighbors, feed the pigeons if the mood struck you, or simply ignore the passing parade and think quietly if that is what you wanted to do. By taking a stroll around the neighborhood you could get away from all the people who think, simply by virtue of them calling you, that they have a claim to some portion of your time. Try doing that with the cell phone attached to your hip.
It is, in short, impossible. For example, is there anyone that you wish would simply go away more than a salesman calling you on your cell phone? And now that he’s got your number, what can you do about it? Because salesmen are all in the same racket, you know. If this guy selling encyclopedias has found your number, then you can bet dollars to doughnuts that he’s passed your number on to an insurance salesman and your local PBS affiliate as well. Try to get the PBS people off the phone without giving them a pledge of your support and see how fast they make you feel guilty about all those years you watched Sesame Street and your parents didn’t contribute a dime to the station. The only reason you’re literate today is because you watched Bert, Ernie, and Kermit pound the alphabet into your semi-simian skull for years and years and now you won’t help the next generation of kids learn anything, you cheap bastard. Give them money and you’ll get the Irish Tenors CD, if you like that sort of thing. I don’t care much for Irish tenors myself; I think it’s a case of familiarity breeding contempt—my parents loved that kind of music and I heard it a lot when I was a kid, which probably explains why I don’t have much use for the music now. I still think Irish tenors sound a lot like guys wearing very tight underwear trying to sing after someone’s just driven a knee into their testicles, but that’s just my opinion.
Now it’s true, you could go the traditional route and simply hang up on your annoying salesman /alumni committeeman/ con artist, but he’ll only call you back; he knows that this is your cell phone and that you haven’t gone anywhere. You’re still where he can get a hold of you, a situation that will go on until you leave the phone at home. He’ll stop calling once he realizes that there’s no warm body at the other end. No one really enjoys talking to themselves except schizophrenics and politicians.
The other people I wish would just go away are the people who insist on answering their cell phones no matter where they are. There’s something beyond crass about someone who insists on answering a phone at a wedding or in the middle of a movie where the rest of us who don’t care what you and the person you’re talking to at the top of your lungs have to say to each other. I just paid ten dollars to get into the theater and another twelve dollars for popcorn and soda and after spending that kind of money I want to see the picture, not listen to you gabbing away with Tiffany about how Alicia’s boyfriend broke up with her to go out with Jennifer. I don’t care, in the first place, and secondly, I didn’t pay twenty-two dollars to listen to half of a radio soap opera. Shut up and put the phone away, dammit, I want to watch the movie.
And can someone explain the logic of giving teenagers cell phones? Giving a teenager a cell phone smacks of mindless socialism run totally amok. Parents who think this is a good idea will think that right up to the day they get the bill for that phone little Tommy or Tammy got for their birthday and discover, even with the best, most heavily discounted plan in the world, that they have to pay for calls made to every portion of the universe inhabited by intelligent, and as we are talking about teenagers here, not so intelligent life. Telling your teenager that they must use the cell phone responsibly is like telling them to clean up their rooms; they hear you, they understand what you’re saying, but let’s face reality, it’s not going to happen. Go ahead, roll you eyes at them—see how much good that does you. Look at next month’s bill and see if it gets better. It won’t and why should it? It’s not like your average teenager has to pay for his or her cell phone; that’s what parents are for, remember? You had them so now you’re stuck with them. It’s entirely too late to ship the ungrateful hooligans back to the factory.
So, remember, free yourself from the tyranny of the telephone age and leave the cells at home. Enjoy life away from the constant nagging of people you wish would go annoy somebody else. Be the anomaly on your block. And don’t say I didn’t try to warn you.
PETE…DAVIN…JIM..
i think Dialogue is sort of the virtual pub …where folks just sling it around…..sometimes things go awry, but all in all there is a natural checks and balance in the conversation….for sure , most sponsors for an essay will not want comments, or at least not unedited comments….the freedom i have given everyone here for open comments has mostly worked, but not always…only when it leads to personal attacks rather than personal opinions do we slide into the inappropriate….i have stated many times that UFO’s will be deleted…unfortunately, i just cannot be monitoring all the time….and when everyone starts responding to a UFO, then it becomes impossible to delete….the open comment system is both the best and worst thing about BURN….i have pleaded with the readership here to use some common decency and decorum so that we can keep the free open system…..i make this plea again….not because of sponsors, but simply because as Herve points out, who wants to walk into a room full of arguing people?? good discussion yes, ranting no….
i have given about as much energy as i can or want to give regarding the comment flow….being accused of censorship is now starting to look like a minor blip compared to wasting so much time trying to keep the comments on a high level….somebody is just always going to make a nasty comment, which then leads to more nasty comments and then and then….
my suggestion of course would be for constructive criticism which will benefit all of you…these are the voices which will determine our fate….
cheers, david
JIM – you wrote “I really don’t get it.”
Let me see if I can clarify. Several people here think you have a helpful presence because of your opinions and they find your activity here helpful. Some people here may not agree with your opinions, but find your presence here harmless. A vast majority of people here feel that the WAY in which you express your opinions (not the opinions themselves, per se) is destructive to the community as a whole, overbearing and echoes a serious problem somewhere between an obsessive need to dominate and a pathological narcissism. Your inability or unwillingness to heed the repeated social cues given to you suggesting that the WAY you express yourself is unwelcome, damaging and hostile to the community at large is, at best, frustrating, because this community aspires to be inclusive and tolerant.
I’m just a fly on the wall here… an amateur interested in photography and excited that a place like Burn exists, but it is becoming increasingly difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff in the comments sections.
What about adding forum software (such as vBulletin and the like) to a section of Burn. Users could then start specific threads, and send private messages to one another. Just a thought…
Wow, guys what a presentation! David, it looks more and more professional. Great job. good luck! to all of ADMINS and BURNIANS!
LOVE the video..
boy does it move…
fast….
what can I say?!?
yes
yes
and
YES!!!!!
it keeps getting more and more
EXCITING!!!!
David, Anton etc…
you guys rock!!!
Thanks for being here,
and for your
dedication
and
BuRNING
passion….
the one thing we all have in common;
a true passion
for
photography!!!!
xoxoxoxoxoxo
**
WOW!!! Yes, what a show! Must have looked amazing on the big screen … I have to say that it feels great and a little (very) intimidating to see my picture in the show and my name on the list. Geee … Thanks DAH. Thanks Anton. Thanks everybody else …
And as I’ve said before: I am here ready to jump in and help with whatever.
Puh … need a tea now.
And then I guess I’ll watch this a couple of times more :-)))
I am so, so very happy for BURN … for us … and … for everybody who will still join.
And I am very excited about the future. I guess we all should be … Let us make something really grand out of this.
DAH … I have no words. It will be so great to see you in London next week. Will Anton come too??????
The presentation is perfect! Looked amazing on the big screen too.. I think it really does clarify things and will be great for a number of uses. Congrats!
DAH
yesyes – missed you on skype..
i love the idea of commissions and am shooting and pitching stories right now.. one or two sold so far.. 2 or 3 to place :o)))
looking forward to chatting in london.. gonna be a blast.
david
Very neat presentaion. I guess thats what you call coming up with the goods.
John
I think the thing the video really shows is the extent of David’s ambition for this web site. Which is a good thing, in my opinion, because if he can pull it off, it will be a very “out there” venue for photography. But the reality is that we as commentators must be jettisoned for this venue to accomplish David’s goal. I suspect David knows this. There is really no place for even the single comments under essays or single photos that we have now. The current format is amateur time. What David is creating is a slick, professionally produced web site. We all need to give David permission to get us off the front page of this site.
Vbulletin is a great idea. With a link to moderated forums. And remove the “Recent Comments” from the front page. I’m not sure WordPress is going to carry him much farther either. I’m hoping for a website built on a CMS (I like Joomla as an open source CMS), and I suspect that’s the way it will go.
The video is a harbinger of the future. And I’m impressed at the vision for that future.
Looks fantastic…
Best of luck,
McGowan
The presentation is impressive. Sleek.
Congratulations to everyone involved.
Nacho
I FREAKING LOVE. IT.!!!
Simply Dazzzling David.
Nacho!!!
Hey where have you been? Still in Washington D.C.? I was on the phone with Iztok 5 min ago and we were talking about Tuscany and maybe going there again this summer. What about you?
Let’s talk: info@lassal.de
Cheers,
L
Jim
I’m also thinking along the same lines as your last post.
Comments/discussion have to be severed or distanced from the principal content particularly in
light of Davids aspirations for the Burn community.
Comments certainly are entertaining and/or infuriating and, no doubt, draw in some eyeballs but at the end
of the day it is a form of ‘junk’ entertainment not unlike a reality TV show along the lines
of Big Brother or Survivor.
Mark
Mark and Jim
I agree completely. It is time to move the clubhouse from the front yard to the backyard. We goin’ to have company comin’
If i never have to read another comment from Jim, then i’m all for lettig the comments land in the coffin.
I guess whatever best serves the interests of the photographers being bought online by this site and the interests of those who may be commissioning them is the way to go. I am pretty sure also that thats exactly what david and the team will do. To those outside of this immediate ‘family’ we have here, the slideshow presentation has shown that not only is BURN a serious proposition, but it also has the goods to deliver. If furthering that and achieving the goals that DAH has set this project require the curtailment of comments (some or all) then i dont think anyone could disagree. Its about the work, and getting the work to emerging talent at the end of the day and whatever is the best format for doing that should be implemented.
maybe there will be a little ‘virtual’ woodshed blog on the side(maybe called ‘powers bar and grilled” )
But lets wait and see before we start arranging wakes.
John
Hi Lassal!
Left DC. I am in Rio for three months (I know you like this city), and big move to the Philippines coming after the Summer. Have to run, but will email you later today or tomorrow.
Ciao!
Nacho
THANK YOU MR. HARVEY,
THANK YOU SPONSORS,
THANK BURNIANS,
THANK YOU READERS
THANK YOU UNIVERSE,
I CAN FEEL THAT BURN is the new ERA cause it has an amazing AURA …I Love the future
I Love the Vision…
MR. HARVEY and YOUR team …I have a warning …I might cut and paste your energy…cause
I AM A CIVILIAN after all…:)))
NOW,I CAN GO…
Oups…
I forgot to say…
GOOD LUCK TO ALL…
WE WILL BUY YOUR BOOKS…
Be strong…
Brush your teeth and floss…
LOVE YOU FOREVER
P.S Please embrace your differences …cause at the end we are ALL ONE!!!
CHEERIOS
all –
Just a quick heads up: we temporarily pulled the music from the presentation.
Although we built it specifically for LOOK3, and we have all necessary music rights clearances to show it at LOOK3 and at other venues, we still want to be absolutely certain that the scope of these clearances is broad enough to be able to use it on the BURN website.
As always, we want to keep everyone in the loop about what’s happening with BURN… We’re checking this right now… hopefully everything will return to normal very soon.
thanks for bearing with us,
anton
David and Anton, you fellows are amazing! This video–as seen on both my laptop monitor and the big screen at C’ville’s Paramount Theater–is incredibly professional, exciting, engaging and stimulating. Through it you show us who we are becoming here at Burn and I am left feeling both breathless and thrilled. What an honor to be traveling this road with you guys!
Regarding comments or no comments, I agree with Jim, Mark and Pete. It’s time to move into a new way of be-ing Burn. Perhaps those who want to continue the dialogue could gather in another virtual room, ie., Facebook, Vbulletin, etc. Now is the time for Burn Magazine to take its place at the cutting edge of photography. DAH definitely has his finger on the pulse of this evolving creature and we need to be ready to evolve as well.
Just a note to “a civilian mass-audience” and other non-photographing Burnians, please be assured that you are an essential part of our community and will always be so. In whatever virtual room we gather you will always have a comfortable chair.
Patricia
I think everyone is giving the “potential sponsors” to little credit here. My understanding is they’ll be commissioning photographers whose work they’ve seen on burn — for their own publication/use. There won’t be comments there and they know it. I can’t imagine one comment per essay/picture turning them off from good photography too much, but what do I know.
David seems so far to appreciate the reader participation here (for the most part), and I don’t think it’s not something he thought about before launching. I’m with Mr. Gladdy here, let’s not start making David and Anton’s decisions for them, they seem to know what they’re doing.
Burn is going to be commissioning photographers, but famous and not so, to shoot stuff to show here.
but=both
hey Jim – would you mind if someone put on some music so I can contemplate all that’s swirling around right now? :)
I have to think on this before I post too much….but I think all the answers dance around one question…
what gives burn its fire?
I must think on this before I post more…
a.
scribbling in the dark – on Parr over at EPG Recipient thread
FIRST:
CONGRATULATIONS TO DAVID AND TO ANTON for putting together such an interesting, exciting and ‘conceptually’ (and who the hell said Harvey hates conceptual work? ;))) rich presentation and vision. After all the work the three of you have done on this Multimedia Presentation (Including THE PIRATE DRIVER, MICHAEL C! ;) ), you cats deserve a break. I loved that the presentation was really about 3 things:
1) David Alan Harvey’s Vision/Legacy/Contributions
2) Photographic Content
3) Diversity and Complementation of Vision
I love that the piece was so inclusive and focused on the work and not the individuals and by that extension was the greatest complement to each and every participant whose both been published here, commented here and worked tirelessly behind the scenes. The only thing I waited for was for David and Anton to come out barechested with smoking guns ;)))…You guys really did a wonderful job showcasing both the content AND the possibilities of Burn and the contributions that can be made: photographic, narratively, intellectually and yes, that ugly word, Brand-wsie….You 2 really deserve lots of big hugs (i know harvey probably needs them ;)) ) and as both a contributor and a dude that’s worked behind the scenes, i want to thank you directly (call later in the week) for all u 2 have done with this, tirelessly.
David, as you and I have spoken here, on the phone, face-to-face, about the vision and possibility of Burn, all those emails and chats since that day in the fall when you and anton and tom and eric and chris and kerry and michael and panos and (who am i forgetting??) did that power-meeting post our october rendez-vous and started this journey, the vision for Burn and the future potential of collective power, of community that unites to help and to empower and envision and enliven photography and photographers has always been at the forefront, even amid some of the bumps in the way. One of the things that the presentation did for me was to make me sentimental ;)))…all the great work that has come in, all the comments, the discussions , the growth and changes, all this. It’s hard to imagine it’s been almost 7 months….and lots and lots of images, essays, stories and words….what a beautiful and winding road that continues to stretch forward….
as for the ‘no-comment’ idea. Well, at first i thought: yes, ok. As the guy whose probably written the longest comments ;))) (though, i gotta check with Dad-Akaky), as the one who probably was/has been the most verbose and until recently on the boards the most, I had tired of the commenting, not because I feel BURN should be silent, but that Burn is, ultimately, about content: visual and written. It has also been, from the beginning, often difficult to step back from the ‘way’ some people ‘discuss’ work. As working artists, Marina and I have enough tough skin and enough experience to have dealt with the entire spectrum of critics, galleries, jurists, editors, photographers, peers, friends, strangers, public etc, and both of us have seen the great and the poor in terms of behavior in the photo world, and the Burn audience is not different, why should it be. I guess, until my vanquished breath, i’ll just never ever understand the need to act cavalier or supercilious towards another, but it is also part of the waking world, and sadly a part of the web world to an often more pronounced degree.
However, with all that, I think one of the things that makes Burn unique, which made Road Trips unique, was it’s interactivity. the web is not the magazine world, the newspaper world, the printed book world. For good or ill, the web is about community and conversation, collision, collapse and configuration. It is not surprising that Youtube, Myspace, Facebook, Lighstalkers, Twitter, blogoshpere, etc, have blossomed they way they have. I think (and you and i have talked about this privately) it would be a big mistake to mute Burn. It would be like muting you and you know that aint possible ;)))..just as I cant seem to tape my own mouth shout ;))….
The key will be to differentiate, to separate. Provide Content space (for photographic essays, for singles, for assignments, for written essays and reflections and interviews) that is ‘silent’ (just as with the Burn vid now) and Provide Community space: the DAH corner where you mentor, where people (if they want) have their social network/bar/pub/bitchfest, the place where cats like M.P. or other iconic pros be to provide feedback, where photographers can be interviewed and chat (a la twitter) or what im still trying to complete for the blog in L.A. Erica’s brilliant ‘notes in the dark’ on Look3 a great example, and as we’ve talked, any essay/interview/think piece I write could be open for discussion, if necessary.
But the key is to separate the two. I do not think the sponsors want ‘silence.’ If they do, then they DO NOT understand the web or the internet potential….give my son a silent ‘net magazine’ to look at…he’d tell you something else. What I imagine sponsors want is RETURN: good content and eyes and traffic and involvement that will make their presence important or beneficial. Burn has produced so much good work in the last 7 months and a lot of it…almost entirely by photographers who are not part of the ‘known’ photographic world…and as a vehicle as a brand Burn succeeds by continuing to provide the 2 things it has done very differently: the marriage of the ideas/experience/talent/generosity of a iconic, working pro (David) with community and production. One cannot just dismiss the involvement of the comments and viewers who participate, no matter how frustrated we all get. Not a house divided but a house united, a multi-chambered heart…just like the pulpy, powerful one inside each of us…..
no comments for produced work, but some places where interaction IS necessary (david’s mentoring, discussion/think pieces/pubs/bookreviews, etc)….a silent Burn would not be Burn….for vitality is born more of things than just content (otherwise all the photo sites and photo magazines would prosper), but from the fire of interaction….ideas and personalities….hope that makes sense…
proud of you two for the great job you’ve done and this great production….
and im proud of all those cats behind the scenes whove worked so hard as well…for Michael C, for Kerry, for Tom (i hope not old man any more), for chris c, for the brand guru guy (who i ahvent met) from california, for maria, and for the newest members (i dont know yet which names to write officially, but u know who u are) who are now helping behind the scenes…..i know i’ve worked tirelessly behind the scenes since christmas (i need an email secretary), sometimes making good decisions (for content and photogrpahers here) and sometimes making bad decisions (some of what i’ve written), and all that hard work would not have been physically, emotionally, or time-wise possible without the commitment and inspiration of the world the two of you have done….
running
bb
ps.
HAPPY BIRTHDAY ANTON KUSTERS! :))))))))))))))))))))))))))
welcome to 40! ;)_))))))))))))….(kidding)…i guess you’re legal to drink now in North Carolina….
(i am allowed to write more than 1 comment, aren’t we? ;)))…
hugs
b
Then you are going to need moderated forums. Separated from the rest of the content.
Bob Black wrote,
“just as I cant seem to tape my own mouth shout ;))….”
This line has to contain, possibly, the best typo I’ve seen in some time, Bob :>))
On point now, I think you nailed it very well with your last post.
The sense of community, warts and all, is part of the appeal of Burn and to totally close that
door would be a mistake.
The trick will be in finding that delicate recipe that allows the assorted voices to be heard
while, at the same time, not taking away from the content.
Mark
Jim:
it need neither to be moderated nor a forum. Just distinct parts of the entire Burn website/package.
For content: no comments: much the way, for example, Magnum or Vu or VII shows/produces work. In other words, photographic and written content that is generated for Burn can remain ‘silent’: just like magazines now (or, for example that way Stephan handles Still Dancing). Ditto for submissions (essays and singles)
for community: there’d be a separate place/page: this way David can continue to do his mentoring (his involvement with photographers he chooses to mentor), as well as other contributors can interact if they choose. For example: if someone does a ‘think piece’ that warrants discussion/conversation…and of course, there could be a page/area for ‘forum/meet’ whatever…..
but, i iterate: burn is burn because of the interactivity, the architecture needs to change, as david, i think, as pointed out in the presentation. However, part of ‘monitoring’ is as much a part of contributors….
what has always made David’s vision (vis-a-vis other photogrpahers/young photographers) unique is his commitment to talking, engaging with others….and burn is not just about providing pictures…
but, i think, a lot more…
running
bob
I am trying very hard to BURN silently but i had to come back for my baby ANTON
HAPPY BIRTHDAY ANTON !!!
you have a star …and it shines !!!
FUNNY HAPPY BIRTHDAY SONG
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cg9yftF1OJg&feature=fvw
HAVE A BEAUTIFUL THIGHS !!!
I wish I am BODO tonight !!! thanks
OUR PATRICIA … thank you …I am in tears (happy tears ) this time !!!
you LOOK beautiful !!!
BOB BLACK… The Editor !!! VIVA
Thanks …
Anton…WE LOVE YOU !!!
David, Anton what a wonderful video! dynamic, diverse, awesome!!! very impressed with your mutual effort guys, or should I call you multi-talented shivas ;)))
About the idea of ostracizing dialog from Burn…
It would definitely keep Burn cleaner…
I do have (more than a couple of) people who’s posts I regularly ignore due to what I consider repeated abusive behavior, but we all have different limits on that regard…
So a simple solution could be for each of as to exercise both caution—as to how’s posts we read—and restraint—most of the friction is between specific people and if one of them were to just stop reading the other’s posts which he seems to find overwhelmingly aggravating and stop replying to them the other would get bored and either leave the forum or change his tune…
Besides and despite some personal conflicts—and even disrespectful and demeaning name callings—the dialog part of Burn is in one of its strongest elements for me and I think removing it will make it more of a magazine than a community…
I do not actively participate in most of the discussions nor I offer critique because my motto is ‘if I don’t have anything useful to say it’s better to say nothing’, but I do follow as close as I can most of it and I really enjoy reading in real time different viewpoints clashing, debating, discussing or occasionally agreeing on all kinds of issues…
I hope you’ll find a way to keep the dialog going, either here or elsewhere…
THODORIS,
Are you in ATHENS ? How is everything ? I am on the move …
Wish you LUCK and enjoy LIFE !!! See ya soon.
Got to go,φιλε
Wow Wow wow what an amazingly strong, well done and inspiring video! The music is Rockin! David and Anton, again I would like to put it out there that I would be willing to volunteer time in the Gallery if needed, I live in Brooklyn myself, hence my project on “Brooklyn”.
I can’t wait to see what happens next………
Its not downloading for me. What gives?
RAFAL,
Didn’t work for me the first time either. If you have Firefox, try it there. After I saw it on Firefox, I came back to Safari, refreshed the page, and the second time it worked there as well.
I tried both firefox and IE. I click the window and all it does is disappear and the wod Fire appears which I click to get the window again which again disappears when I click it. And so on.
RAFAL,
WHOOoopps, sorry… looks like it has definitely been shut down for the moment…???!!
ANTON ROCKS!!! (and a very happy birthday to the boy!)
Civi, you are a sweetheart! I hope one day I have the chance to buy you an ouzo or 3!
With a glass of red in hand, watching the Manhattan skyline light up, reading positive comments from y’all, seeing what Burn is becoming… yes, all is good here in Brooklyn. Sigh…
Kerry :-)
I don’t think anyone is proposing that commenting or member interaction be removed from Burn – that would certainly take away from the feeling of community here. Just as Jim and Bob said, discussion needs to be handled in a better way than a WordPress blog. Right tool for the right job…
Commenting could still take place below each submission, but any discussion not pertaining to essay or photograph could take place in forum. Also, the ability to send private messages between members would cut down on a lot of “chatter” that appears in the comments. But maybe that would be a bad thing…
I hope to learn a lot here and I am very optimistic. The other photo forums I spend time on are mainly gear-centric; I want to move a bit beyond that.
great video guys.
Mr. Harvey, thanks for Burn. Love it here.
Everyone else, love ya all.
red wine in white plastic cups, and wonderful waning light …. camera in my hand…so I will be brief…
as one of the very first images in that magnificent multimedia piece (I wish you could *all* have been there in the paramount theater to hear the collective “**ah**” as the fireball exploded and rumbled on the big screen) says…
burn is dialogue.
including discussions of dancing with cameras.
we shall evolve. actually, it’s amazing how fast we *are* evolving. from a jotting of notes to a blog to a cutting-edge more-than-an-online-mag-or-forum-has-ever-been (and now with hip gallery space with one of the best views of NYC) to whatever is coming next….it’s coming fast. exponentially. burn ing.
I for one will be holding on to keep up and, wherever possible, rolling up my sleeves to help. let’s roll.
beautiful light, all.
a.
fate? this came on my iPod just I sent the last post….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yby8PD0AVkI
Sorry Jim, sometimes the show needs a soundtrack. :)
a.
Mr. Harvey
A quick suggestion for Burn. An upload site for Burners to post photos to, “here’s what I’m working on” kind of thing.
Damn, I just love what’s going on here.
Dear All,
Have just seen the Look3 presentation and all I can say is ‘wow’. I am stunned by the quality of the presentation, although not surprised knowing the quality of work David and Anton produce. This is such an amazing advertisement for Burn and I can imagine it was very well received in the Paramount theatre. I hope all who went to Look3 this year had an amazing time. Attending last year was a very special time for me and it was tough not being there this year.
I am so excited to be a part of this community and can only see the positives in the future. Sure times are difficult at the moment, sure there are lots of photographers out there ‘competing’ for work, sure you my have to diversify a little to get by, but like the feeling I have when I attend workshops or festivals, there is a camaraderie here on Burn between photographers of all ages and levels who see a future, an exciting future. We have no time to sit around arguing with each other, we have to be out there shaping our future. Right now.
Thanks again David and Anton for what you are doing for this community.
Bestest from Beijing,
Sean
Sidney, Rafal… just right click on the “arrow” and then click “open link in a new window”,
and it opens immediately:)))))))))))
It might be a good to have 3 sections…First a clean gallery space where photos and text are presented without any comments following…Then another section where readers/viewers can comment on a certain piece. The 1 comment limit seemed to work well for this…Finally a 3rd section where folks can just chat, continue commenting, argue (in a positive and constructive way).
Burn truly does have the potential for becoming the best platform for presenting ‘great’ photography. (of course we all have different opinions of what “great’ photography is, but this is what makes Burn unique)
3 months ago I didn’t even know about Burn and now I check Burn every morning before reading my emails…
I think we’re all having fun :-)
Happy Birthday, Anton! 40…. I used to be 40 yo once in my life, not for long though, but then John Lennon never lived to be 41 so it’s all good, whatever way we look at getting older, and what strikes us does not kill us….
and yes, the presentation on a big screen must have been dynamite, and make its effect on memories. The one thing I did not get, is if the sponsoring could also be targeted to publishing a book, rather than fund an assignment.
Just a couple other points.
1. It would be fun to have other well established photographers comment in the forum as well, ie. people working in genres from James Nachtwey to Martin Parr (just quoting photographers that DAH mentioned) Their critiques/commments/criticisms could draw a lot more viewership to Burn and add to its strength.
2. It might be nice to have a section where people could write a brief bio about themselves..those who don’t have websites for instance. For example, I try to read most of Bob Blacks (lengthy) comments but don’t know who he is. People have mentioned that Jim is a photojournalist or editor living in Texas…where, what paper etc. And Civilian…??? Some of us kind of know DAH from Visa etc. but did not do a workshop with him. It seems like there is this little core group of Burnians who all know each other.
And I know this is a stupid question..But can someone please explain to me what these famous DAH roadtrips are?
Happy birthday Anton! :)
You also think we are getting younger and younger???
Best wishes!
:)
Civi…
Yes, I’m in Athens…
The organization of the festival/exhibition could/should have been better…
Anyway…
Enjoy your travels my friend…
…
For anyone who will be in Athens next Wednesday the 24th, there will be a sort of a party at the ArTower Agora (10 Armodiou St., Varvakios Platia) sometime in the late afternoon. The exhibition on display has been curated by the Thessaloniki Museum of Photography, the theme is ‘Time’ and at least five of the eight participating photographers will be there, in addition to the people from the Museum, the festival and the gallery… in the off chance there is anyone here who might be able to come, please come in contact with me and I’ll let you know what time, as soon as I learn that myself…
oh, there will be free drinks :)
I think we should have a thread / forum called WOODSHED.
Anything that mama wouldn’t want going on in her kitchen, take it to the WOODSHED.
I’m not sure a media outlet that features commissioned works from the likes of James Nachtwey has any place for such a thing, Erica. Maybe take all this chatter back to Roadtrips.
ANTON,
My condolences on the arrival of the 40th year.
Joe I came accross your May 29 on a roll comment and the links to Simon Norfolks discussion on making a living as a photographer.
“Instead of Friday’s Wandering, Here’s Friday’s ‘Wondering’. It did take me a bit of wandering to assemble these three links.
i think Simon Norfolk’s
Advice Here”
My pasted links will not work, but this is timely important stuff.
Patricia
WOODSHED is a great idea, as long as the folks who should know when to go there.
Anton
Happy birthday there guy, thanks for all you do here.
Welcome to middle age. You now have twenty good years before you take the first step into Geezerhood. With age comes wisdom.
It would help if DAH made it a rule, like the 1 post under essays rule..And if the father of the house says so, it could work, cause it’s better to take it to the WOODSHED yourself like an adult than to be sent to the NAUGHTY CHAIR like an unruly toddler.
Alternate space names for WOODSHED could be,
“FLAME” or “BURNT”
SQUABBLE
@ David Bacher….
just passing through during lunch-time, but noticed your question: “And I know this is a stupid question..But can someone please explain to me what these famous DAH roadtrips are?”
RoadTrips is the name of David’s blog, before it turned into burn. Last time I looked, it was still up. Lots of interesting back-reading if you’re ever so inclined. Even if you just read DAH’s post and not the hundreds of comments that would fall under each one…I think I got there from the link off DAH’s page.
And I agree – I think part of what keeps burn on fire is that we are having fun.
good light to all, I’m going to go dodge lightning bolts on my way to lunch.
A.
@anton
knew it was your birthday yesterday, but didn’t know which one. Congratulations on being 39 again for the first time.
BURNING THE MIDNIGHT OIL.
THE BACKROOM
THESE DOGS BITE
LIBERTY AVENUE
DANCES WITH WORDS
OPINIONS 101
HOT AIR CLUB
FLAK JACKETS REQUIRED
COMBAT ZONE
John,
Editing down one of your proposed names just rolls off the tongue-
“FLAK”
EMBER
We could call it the D. A, Harvey Argument Clinic and Car Wash
This, I now believe, would be the appropriate forum to host some of the recent discussions.
http://www.marktomalty.com/#mi=2&pt=1&pi=10000&s=24&p=1&a=0&at=0
9th CIRCLE
PIQUE-NIQUE
“Burn After Reading”
this idea of online publication with exclusive works is just exellent…
OK, I know it’s been busy around here, but I really miss the selected photographs. It has not changed for weeks.
I love “burn rumble” Mark
Jim. If we switch your one around it becomes….READ AFTER BURNING…which could be quite apt.
john
Indeed.
I actually liked the Troll(?) named ::) ‘s suggestion, but it should be plural:
EMBERS
Hopefully, David will post a new photo soon. Things are getting…well…strange. ;)
scribbling in the dark – on Peress over at EPG Recipient
Jossling? no.
Cream? mmmh. Cream could be good for something else.
Bumper..I don’t know.
cant find the exact brief so I’m guessing here what its about.
OK this might give you guys something to talk about, last post I will make so its probably worth a read, Cheers Lisa
http://duckrabbit.info/blog/2009/06/audio-slideshow-lisa-hogben-v-stevie-smith-plus-a-point-of-view/
*****EMBERS
Embers are the glowing, hot coals made of greatly heated wood, coal or other carbon based material that remain after, or sometimes precede a fire. Embers can glow very HOT, nearly as hot and sometimes as hot as the fire which created them.
They are often used for cooking, such as in charcoal barbecues, and are preferred over open flame when roasting marshmallows on a campfire.
***
for our international readers…:)))
Did I Say I LOVE YOU today???
I LOVE YOU ALLLLLLLLLLLLL.
P.S Mrs. KERRY…I own you ouzo but I am afraid you will have to do the “DAH dance” first :)
WHERE ARE YOU KATHLEEN FONSECA ???
PLEASE proceed to be BURNed ASAP. Love forever
THEODORIS …BURN in Athens …:)))))))))))))))))
TO ALLL
keep the FIRE …
friendly “FUEL”
“DANCING FLAMES”
yeap…!!!
BURN your finger’s
oups
Anton – I am late – HAPPEEEEEY BIRTHDAY !!!!
Will woodshed/embers/burnt/rumble/etc become Magnum’s Playboy Channel and Kibutz it’s Mansion af 11pm?
I’m going, typically, to walk off a cliff and respond to lisa.
lisa, you write well, but as joe over there pointed out, the biggest obstacle to diversity as you label it is probably economic. Even the cost of a Rebel Xti is beyond the budget of many you would like to see represented. I can offer no solution to that problem.
But beyond that, diversity in photography is a chicken and egg problem. I’ve been involved in hiring a lot of photographers, reporters and graphics artists over many years. The problem has never been that we were a group of WASP men sitting around selecting only other WASP men. Even at a small paper in Texas, we post job openings in media all over the US when we look for a new team member. And we get dozens and dozens of resume’s, and interview dozens and dozens of people. And over many years of doing this, and hundreds of resumes, I’ve had only two black photographers apply and no one of any other ethnic group apply.
It gets worse. I’ve had only one man (white) apply for a graphics art position – all but one applicant have been white women. Where is the diversity in people going into graphics arts? I’ve never had a black female reporter applicant and only one black male. Why is that? Perhaps they don’t want to work in small Texas towns. But even that choice occurs before I have the opportunity to hire them.
Whatever is going on is happening before people apply to the outlets that want to hire them. To showcase their work. If they are being discouraged from entering certain professions, it is being done well before we have a shot at them. We don’t care about race, or color or ethnic background. We hire the best we can afford that come to us for jobs.
And my experience has been the same with the various competitions around. The judges are looking for the best work. They rarely know whose work they are looking at until after they’ve made the selections. They can only judge what they have in front of them.
I do agree that as photographers we should be pointing our cameras here in the US more at ourselves than going to “exotic” places we know little about or photographing cultures we know nothing about.
I haven’t followed whatever debate you are embroiled in, so I don’t know, but do you feel that some kind of deliberate discrimination is holding you back personally? Just curious.
VIVA Aung San Suu Kyi !!!
Happy Birthday !!!
Jim,
a great post, which sticks to the facts. Would you post in on the duckrabbit blog and I’ll put it up?
THANKS
Jim I promise there is no cliff!
Promise, but I would like to respond to this properly over at duckrabbit cos that is where it started and its seems disrespectful to hijack this thread.
But just for the record (and for Joe especially, who thinks I am a what did he call it ‘a disgruntled, substandard photographer’) I do not feel I have ever been discriminated against in any way and if I have I have just walked right over it.
But its not so easy for some…
GORDON…
i do not know why, but for some reason we receive very few “singles”……however, we do have some and will publish soonest as we now return to our normal programming….
LISA…
i have just this morning become aware of your debate at “duckrabbit”….this is an issue which has followed all of us throughout our careers….
you would not be considered disrespectful by me if you continued to write on discrimination right here….
furthermore, i would be honored if YOU would write a serious essay on the subject and i would run it as a full top of the page post (with one of your photographs of course)….we are going to have more and more serious reader articles this year with several of our colleagues as columnists….are you interested??? i think you would be perfect….
cheers, david
To take up the discussion of the current essay, I always look at the story the photographer is trying to tell as well as the photos. The photographer’s artist statement suggests he is trying to tell a story, not produce pure art. He has taken a stand, put forth a thesis he says he is trying to show through the photos. But I’m not convinced he has done his homework on this one. The fringes don’t represent the middle. These photos will reinforce stereotypes for many viewers.
There is nothing wrong with the photography itself. But the photography doesn’t exist in a vacuum.
DAVID.ALL.
Lisa has joined in on an issue that is currently the hot topic on photo sites and blogs.
duckrabbit first posted this:
http://duckrabbit.info/blog/2009/06/pdn-passive-racism/
After reading the original post on reciprocity failure:
http://reciprocity-failure.blogspot.com/2009/05/pdn-white-album.html
It’s since been picked up by almost everyone with a photo blog, a very good thing indeed.
Jim, Lisa, Duckrabbitt, I have not been able to find the debate going on about diversity, on lightstalkers. Any chance a link be posted about it.
Jim, thanks for this input, based on experience, facts, and well, life. I think that actually, it makes no difference where we go to find our subjects, across the street or an ocean away. I am not sure we are lacking in terms of home-bound photographic journeys either, after all.
Lisa, I hope we have now free of quarrels between you and I. But may I say your point made on DR’s blog seemed made more out of political correctness. IMO, we need to get away from the same definitions and pigeon-holing that seem to be with us, at our calling, 24/7, since the 60s, and only take in account the surface appearance of things and stats.
Sister Lisa :))
as u know, i’ll leave a response tonight at duckrabbit and LS! :)))
hugs
running
b
Herve,
I think this is the referenced thread at Lightstalkers
http://www.lightstalkers.org/pdn-passive-racism-defend-and-win-1000-bucks
CATHY…HERVE
please keep the fires going here….my lack of comments is not a lack of interest…i spent all day and all night at the airport yesterday and went nowhere..bad weather….so, i have to do the same thing all over again today….bad timing as far as this discussion goes, but just the way it is since i am now supposed to be in London….
please contact Lisa directly if you can…i want her to write a piece…..PDN interviewed me yesterday about the very same thing, so i imagine sparks will fly…and i just will not be here to comment…
cheers, david
David,
Since Lisa’s already posted her thoughts on duckrabbit and since Gary Knight has also been sounding off on the matter (in an interesting and provocative way), duckrabbit would be totally honored if YOU would write some thoughts on the subject for us to post.
A lot of people think we’ve already reached the promised land on the issue of diversity. Others think change happens by accident, or is unnecessary. I may be reading this wrong but I think the majority who are speaking up seem to think that photography is more important than equality. The world doesn’t just need inspiration and leadership on photography but also humanity. I know you have to be selfish for your art but do we really want another generation growing up thinking its better to get the shot of a dieing person then to help them (if that’s a viable option)?
Things have moved on because people have fought. That said maybe you can call the post ‘Tell it how it still is’.
Herve,
I posted the Lightstalkers link but the post is not showing up, here.
The thread title at Lightstalkers starts with “Pdn=Passive Racism……”
Mark
I will try, Mark!!!
But LS is probably the most anal retentive website to research, and even log in… The thing is a fort, and the pont-levis (drawbridge) is rarely down, definitely can sustain a siege! :-)))
DUCKRABBIT….
i have just recently been aware of your site and will link to it here soonest….of course, i will write whatever you want….my only problem is that i am traveling today and will be in a Magnum meeting all next week (how much do you think i love biz meetings??)…can you wait a week??? if not, i will figure out a way…
also very interested in working with you on a variety of projects/issues…if we can talk again right around july 1 that would be ideal, if it works for you….
cheers, david
cheers, david
David is and american white male photographer. Talk of being….. DAHminant!!! :-)))))
hmmm… discrimination… passive racism…
many facets to it… the discriminated, the discriminating,
the labeled-as-discriminated and the labeled-as-discriminating
and then the stance you have to take, or the stance to have none.
Ok, if you don’t try to log in, LS is easy to get in… ;-)
BTW, Lisa, EPF is over, but reading you now, how come when some of us thought that David could or would have been choosing less pedigreed/awarded photographers for his EPF finalists, you responded that David should not do, to sum up (it was not your words) any “affirmative action”, and only go by who seemed the very best in his eyes?
All we did, after all, since the finalists had been chosen, was exactly what you and others did on LS and DR: debating on inclusion/exclusion in the photographic and P. grant business.
I will read more on these sites what has been told. I think it’s really strictly an issue for the industry. All the photographers that I know, here in SF, and on my favored photosites, are incredibly diverse.
But one point, and not just about photography, more generally, it seems as people debate, the “ethnic” or “ethnic-flavored” ones (like white but raised non-white, as BobB wrote in LS)) do seem to identify themselves as they respond, while the “whites” just give their opinion. Meaning, as I see it, the first count their ethnicity as experience (and relative to their experience), and the second not at all….
Hi David,
When you find the right words, at the right time, then the very next moment you’ll be reading them on the duckrabbit blog BUT not before then (we would have it no other way)
If you’re in London next week I can’t promise you sparks but I can a good pint of ale to take your mind off business. Equally have some ideas that I think you might want to set fire to.
Best
Benjamin
VIVA DUCKRABBIT !!!
Mr. Harvey …he/she promised a good PINT of ALE ***
***Ale is a type of beer brewed from malted barley using a top-fermenting brewers’ yeast. This yeast ferments the beer quickly, giving it a sweet, full bodied and fruity taste.
BUT we love you Alllllllllleeeeeeeeeeee !!!!!!!!!!!
If I understand, ACMA, ALE favors photographic friendliness, and YALE analysis and detachment?…
:-)
What not to LOVE, HERVE :–)))
I am on the road…but where is KATIE…street fighter?
give us a sign !!!
Do we have in BURNIANS in Zurich ???
man oh woman!
its funny when gim says that he doesnt want burn to be a cult like place but then he says that dah is “perhaps” the best photographer that there is or ever has been… the best of them all or what you consider to be nice and pretty? so, oh jim… oh you are pathetic in every way, just like your images of your nascars and inner life. its understandable why american photography is defined by dah, geddes, crewdson, man oh mann and nachtwey and europe by dusseldorf, parr, soth (from europe), wylie, d’agata, bechers and paul graham. fuck open you see, use it! but you can’t you unobsessive bitches
Posting and alcohol really don’t mix.
Well I guess thats us told then. :) Thanks Rambo.
Since it’s pretty quiet here today, how about another list of what everyones shooting today? I’ve just been down the local skatepark to shoot for my youth project.
Jim; “Posting and alcohol really don’t mix” Look to the positive Jim, he/she has given us a good laugh at his/her own expense!! :-))
Wrong end of the world here time wise , they are either sleeping it off or waking up to a red rake in chaos. Pretty wet here today, usual chores so I’ll cruise the net later and find somewhere to shoot my mouth off
Shooting today for my project: laid on my back while kids hit balls over my head, a woman in her own world waiting in her car, basquiat like graffiti on the schoolyard wall, a man’s glistening abs…
Imants;
Wrong end of the world here time wise too, i’m just over the ditch in NZ :-)) I’ve been following Lisa’s comments and been biting my tongue, very painful it is too…
I’m just making the most of this afternoon because for some reason my comments aren’t getting spammed today..
Erica; thanks for the LOOK3 summary, it was appreciated. What is your new project?
Shot a Juneteenth celebration today. Lot’s of BBQ and fun. The 95 degree F temps were about par for the course.
For those in other countries who may not have heard of Juneteenth, here’s a link:
http://www.juneteenth.com/
Ross I have no dramas with Lisa’s statements and would back her any day above the “Knights of their own world” and Joe the walker and talker.
The white Euro/American style of male has made bias and racism into a fine art here in Australia, when I lived in Asia I used to cringe and be embarrassed about our stance on race and culture, and I still do.It’s all pretty sad
I shot at my favorite “nothing is happening and you won’t know what it is until you shoot it” zone in SF, 6th and Clement. Then a few steps into the GREEN APPLE bookstore, which has a few big and tall shelves of used and new photography books I can’t afford, but can browze thru at my leisure, sitting on the floor….
http://www.pbase.com/image/114012373
I spent the day shooting transportation in Bellingham… the Amtrak station, the Alaska Ferry Terminal… the bus lines… its a job for the county planning organization who need a wide range of photos for planning presentations, reports, information booklets, public campaigns, etc. Have to focus on the accessibility and connectivity of the various systems.. on people using them… wheelchairs, bicycle carriers, seniors, children, minorities…. I have to find all these people myself on location and talk them into signing model releases (non-commercial), something I hate and have rarely done before. Have actually had a little success getting the releases, but it’s far more work than taking pictures. Even acquaintances of mine are extremely reluctant to be photographed for fear they will appear on the cover of some local government pamphlet. Naturally I am completely honest and out front about that possibility. What makes this an ordeal is that I have had a raging toothache for days and am heavily zonked with painkillers which make it only marginally bearable. Sometimes earning a living is tough! But I had some good luck with timing more than once and it was a productive day, even though exhausting.
Imants;
Same here, I’m just biting my tongue not to say anything in haste! I loved that comment,”It screams of a disgruntled substandard photographer blaming some incidental statistic for the reason her work is not better received?” That would have to be one of the most pretentious statements I’ve heard in a while; gave me a good laugh.
Lisa is out there doing it, not sitting in front of a laptop commenting screeds of notes on other people’s essays with a pseudo-intellectual air…
I spent the day travelling two hours north of where I live to Victoria BC (Canada) with my mom and two of my kids to visit my third kid Christina.
Hug your kids, if you have ’em, or your folks if you have ’em, or just people you love. Make some photographs of them too. You will be glad you did.
http://www.pbase.com/glafleur/trip_to_victoria_with_mom
Just beautiful, Gordon, the last 2 are real keepers, I like 5731 too, nice “divided mood” there.
So, Ross, what/where did you shoot today?
Actually, Ross, I am trying to se if I can catch the match between France and NZ somewhere on the net, in a few hours. Will you be watching?
Thanks Herve, glad you like ’em. Love my life, love making photos, lovin’ Burn. Feeling good tonight. It’s only 9:55 here on the west coast. I always check in before bed, seems I’m the last one on.
g’night all.
Herve;
I went down the skate park to shoot for my project. Didn’t shoot anything special, more a case of getting to know the kids,breaking ice etc. I’m pretty short of time today, got two articles to get finished by Wednesday.
Anyway it’s cold and windy here today about 10 degrees C, winter is beginning to bite. I’m not sure if I’ll watch the test, I don’t follow the rugby like I used to. I’ve got bored with the whole “rugby macho culture” bullshit that goes with it here.
But… France seem to be our “bogey” side, they seem to know how to beat us reglarly. Mind you it makes a change from getting whipped by the Aussies at cricket!!
i spent a few minutes watching a guy but the whole day thinking about him:
it was obvious he’d had a stroke but he looked harlequin-like…
half of his face devoid of all like stone,
the other half of him busy with a cigarette
cussing his grandson who was too slow to put on his shoe
i stood there blinking…
blinking
gordon,
ive looked at your website once before … your portraits…
but these of your family ive enjoyed the most.
gnite
I thought that after Gordon departed that i was the last one still up! :-)) Mind you it’s only 5.25pm here
hi ross…
im trying really hard to keep your company.
really trying too not to ignore a writing bug that’s been nagging…
oh no.. not close to the one erica’s been listening to
but still… sleep calls but this bug… hmmm…
“Lisa’s statements and would back her any day above the “Knights of their own world” and Joe the walker and talker.”
ok Imants, your any day is today, i‘m curious to see to what extent you’re just flexing and thus gathering up fan boys like Ross, who just like a ‘Hans and Franz’ sketch flexes with no idea why and couldn’t tell you why if challenged:
so i’m confused about these two things, heck maybe they are not even relevant, but if they are not relevant what is? And it certainly isn’t an empty statistic that could be applied to a number of professions.
1.) How are the people that take photographs that the collective universe needs to see, being discriminated against?
2.) How is the photographic work that the collective universe needs to know about being filtered?
please identify a specific segment of photographers and a specific segment of photography that is essentially being ‘squelched’
maybe this is the ‘walking talking’ your tagging me with: It’s probably a bit different from the backpacking education that is more in fashion these days. Although i‘ve experienced that as well, i’m going to favour the facts over the tracks on this one. Facts collected from an international marketing program and then putting them to practice with my work daily working as an expatiate.
a large part of that program (and daily life now) was0 trying to reconcile the things that other cultures care about for the obvious commercial purposes. You can imagine how jarring it was, as matter of fact HSBC has made an entire marketing campaign out of cultural diversity showing things like a grasshopper and then showing for one culture it means ‘good’ luck and for another it means ‘disaster‘. You can find the campaign in every airport.
the point i’m trying to make is there are two parts to the ‘diversity’ equation, the first is what the people of diversity think is important for them to see. The second is what the WASP thinks is important to see, but now the world would like to see the WASP using a more diverse set of servants to serve up WASP food? Seems a bit absurd
i really don’t care who serves up my news, and a scan of my web travels would suggest i‘m not a WASP, but I would not be ashamed if I did have WASP taste as there are other groups out there as well that should not be ashamed they fit some statistical criteria. i only care that the person that provides the information cares about it enough to serve it up with the highest standard of quality and honesty.
and yes, we know in each profession there are what look like on the surface to be statistical anomalies and we know it’s not because of discrimination, Jim’s made that clear so there’s no need to revisit that, unless you think Jim is wrong about that Imants?
what i do wonder, is if there is a universe of people that don’t want to see asylums and drug addicts and the fall of the soviet union and the fall of the American mortgage system (ummm… yes, but is it mainstream?) Is there actually a massive ‘AUDIENCE’ that’s being discriminated against by showing them things they don’t really culturally care about. I find my self straddling this interest/disinterest.
If this was the case, what’s the logical conclusion? Are there really that many barriers to entry to match this universe with a willing audience using photography as a media? Build the field and they will come.
” GOOOOOOOD MORNING VIETNAAAAM! “
Joe;
“fan boys like Ross” Thank you Joe you proved my point in 4 words! That along with; “It screams of a disgruntled substandard photographer blaming some incidental statistic for the reason her work is not better received?” gave me 2 good laughs today!!
You see I’m no “fan boy” (a term that seems to be a favourite on internet forums if someone doesn’t agree with a particular point of view). I swapped a few emails with Lisa on the subject last night, agreed with some things, didn’t agree with some, but did agree that it would be easier to discuss over a few cold ones. Not for one minute did I doubt her professional integrity though, or that it was sour grapes on her part.
Have a good day everyone!!!
Joe, once the fan boy comment cropped up I lost interest so what you wrote goes unread by me. I am not here to point score etc so you may as well get on with what you were doing .
Trust me imants. You did yourself a favour to walk awayyyyy. It was beyond you.
…… http://etrouko.com.au/art/duckm01.jpg
Predictable and juvinille I’m sure
……… http://etrouko.com.au/art/josephmarcel06.jpg
…….. can’t fish here
ZzzzZzzZzz
…. not the spat you were chasing? grin
And you don’t see the irony?
…….. it’s no use jumping up and down shouting at a river.”Hey fish come here” two grins
When I was waiting at the airport
LOOK what I read …hmmmmmm…
“Big Brains Cause Cramped Mouths”
“Evolution isn’t perfect. If it were, we might have wings instead of wisdom teeth. Sometimes useless features stick around in a species simply because they’re not doing much harm. But wisdom teeth weren’t always a cash crop for oral surgeons. Long ago, they served as a useful third set of meat-mashing molars. But as our brains grew our jawbone structure changed, leaving us with expensively overcrowded mouths.”
LOVE u ALL
i’m sorry Imant, i’m certain what you said makes sense to you, but none to me. What makes sense to me is much more simple. you said something which included a demeaning term with my name bound to a bold offer by you and i called you on it:
“back her any day above the “Knights of their own world” and Joe the walker and talker”
you then responded in the spirit of “I have no time to discuss with anyone that: ‘dare I say ‘demeans’’ That’s fine Imants. If you were really that noble i would be more ashamed of the exchange, and i am a little. But you’ve managed to prove by spending all of your creativity energy to engage me only on a nasty level that you really don‘t subscribe to what you say. Seems a bit conflicting and smells of something else entirely.
But never mind Imants. i don’t think you’re a horrible person, just susceptible to sparring with ‘personalities’ verses topics. i have this issue more than anyone else i’m sure, and i’m not terribly proud of it, but although sometimes my words have a cutting personal edge to them, they are almost entirely followed up with a thrust of reason and a thrust of effort to help show possibly why i feel the way i do. i don’t think we can ever get enough of background ’effort’ verses just strong opinions.
i think your similar engagement on a nasty level would benefit loads from a similar background effort; sorta showing why you could have such strong opinions, show with a handful of facts. It would make it more forgivable. Right now its as you say, just a bunch of spit.
The door’s wide open for you to have the last clever quip Imant as I’m off to do some printing. You can despise me, but in the end i’ll still respect you and your work and i look forward to your upcoming essay.
Cheers.
pass……..now for my next topic………. burn is http://etrouko.com.au/art/bi01.jpg
What did I shoot yesterday? Nothing nada niente rien zilch. Today, on the other hand, I anticipate shooting my niece’s graduation party, which is going to be held despite the severe thunderstorms in the forecast. Free food and free beer will bring out a crowd no matter what the weather.
Ot at least my brother thinks so
@ JIM
u wld b surprised to knw that thr are about 12000 dslrs sold every wedding season in india …..u wld probably gt more moolah fr a used rebel in a small town in India than on ebay.com …
its just that there isnt much awareness and money in photojournalism at the national level ….
…. this shld intrigue u as well
http://www.pdnonline.com/pdn/content_display/features/featured-in-print/e3i6e35e0f4967c742abd543000b8f5d8d2
this cover page is shot by a photographer brought up in india and a graduate from ICP .
vivek, still it’s the relative numbers that are at play. If you stage a Bass fishing tournament where there are 1 million American Bass Fishermen who enter and 1,000 Bass Fisherman from India who enter, odds are an American is going to win. Has nothing to do with discrimination though.
Vivek says…
…its just that there isnt much awareness and money in photojournalism at the national level …
——————————————————————————————–
Jim Says…
vivek, still it’s the relative numbers that are at play. If you stage a Bass fishing tournament where there are 1 million American Bass Fishermen who enter and 1,000 Bass Fisherman from India who enter, odds are an American is going to win. Has nothing to do with discrimination though.
——————————————————————————————–
This is very true. But we can’t probably blame the Americans (or anybody else other than ourselves) for this lack of awareness and money in PJ in India. It is indeed that there are many talents in India who, given the right opportunities, can really do exceptional work in this field. But I think this argument applies to many of the developing countries also…like Bangladesh. Honestly, I used to think that photography being not all a viable, let alone lucrative, career option is a very local phenomenon in India…but talking to some photographers from the western countries over the years, I tend to believe now that photography is nowhere a very LUCRATIVE (money-wise) profession for any young man (at least) at the initial stages. I may be wrong in this assessment though.
Like if one takes the case of BPO (call centre) jobs in India, although the work is literally back-breaking, but still many young men and women in India would always prefer to do that job rather than wasting their times chasing after photographs in scorching heat in half-fed stomachs…mainly because of the fact that there is an excellent pay packet attached to even a call-centre job. And ‘money’ means booze, parties, apparels, bikes, perfumes…all the things a young person wants.
So being an Indian, although it is very tempting to agree to all these “discrimination” argument, but I agree with Jim here. Whatever problems that young photographers are facing here, it is mostly of our own making and we can’t blame anybody other than our own newspaper/magazine etc. owners and our own system in this regard.
One example that comes to mind is that in my city, even if a very senior and respectable local photographer does an photography exhibition in my city, the local media won’t even spare ten words for that but if any Tom-D-or Harry from some western country comes to my city with little or no previous experience in photography and does an whirlwind tour of the city on bi-cycle with whatever latest camera he has and thereafter does an exhibition here, the local media will give it such a hype that anybody with little knowledge of photography will believe that this T-D-or H is one of the greatest photographer ever born on mother planet. Whom we can blame other than ourselves for this?
I think complain regarding “discrimination” does not hold much water…one has to remember that photography is an out-and-out professional field…
Photography was never a hugely lucrative profession, even in the US. Today it is difficult to even make a living as a photographer, wedding photography being a possible exception (but there is tons of competition there, also).
BODO
Whom we can blame other than ourselves for this?
———————————
Takes 2 to tango. Agree ith you, Bodo. The one thing about this diversity argument is that the fault has to be squarely on one side. Fact is, to take Jim’s example about fishing competition, Even when the “western world” would do the right thing, there wouyld be plenty of discrimination (caste, gender, red tape, corruption-based, cultural and family Dos and DONTs etc…) on the other end to bnring over even 10 indian fishers, not to speak of 1000.
I forgot the title of that docu about the kids being taught photography by westerners in Calcutta, got an Oscar for it (western awards, not bollywood’s), and many eventually get funded to travel in the West, even some to study if I recall, , that’s when the real shit arises to keep the kids down….
That is what got me with Peress talking about the “western world” ignoring the suffering in the world. Not true (genocide happens because NEIGHBOURS, that’s africans for Rwanda, let it happen). It is the western political establishment that fails us again and again, whoever we vote for. In all these questions, it is not about we vs them, it’s about they (leaders) vs us (the world).
IMO.
“BORN INTO BROTHELS”.
Nice google find too, looking for the title, please read:
http://www.aarp.org/aarp/live_and_learn/Cover_Stories/articles/UPDATE__Avijit_s_Story.html
Maybe this a repeat, but my last post went nowhere. The title of the DOCU was “BORN INTO BROTHELS”, and there was a very interesting article too about one of the kids at:
http://www.aarp.org/aarp/live_and_learn/Cover_Stories/articles/UPDATE__Avijit_s_Story.html
Just checking (last post with a link did not go thru, twice)….
OK, I just copied and pasted the text from the link I found when looking for the title fo the docu, whhich is BORN INTO BROTHELS. I hope this way, I will pass the filter. Very interesting (Bob, this is your paragraph 101 course!):
Avijit’s Story Beyond “Brothels”
By: Anne Mollegen Smith | Source: NRTA Live & Learn | THURSDAY, September 4, 2008
“ALTHO MY LIFE SUX,” writes 19-year-old Avijit Halder in text-messaging style on bebo.com, a social networking site similar to facebook or myspace.com, “I consider myself 2 b lucky…anyways I m indian n dats all,” he continues, “just an ordinary person…who loves eatin, laughing..sometimes painting n photography n hate scools a lot.”
Text messages tapped out on cellphones conserve characters with abbreviations just as telegrams said “soonest” for “as soon as possible” or “update” instead of “bringing up to date” to save words and thus dollars.
“All my friends r cool,” Avijit continues, and indeed, his bebo page is full of friends, many from Rowland Hall St Marks, a preparatory school that he attended in Salt Lake City. When he was 17, he took the “Reel Stories” filmmaking course in Salt Lake City at SpyHop, given in collaboration with the Sundance Institute. That same summer, Avijit talked with interviewer Julie Rose at Salt Lake’s KCPW about studying and living in the U.S.
“My greatest challenge is not to change myself, not totally, not to be Americanized,” he said. His American friends became independent as they grew up; they eagerly moved away from home. “But in India,” Avijit said of people the same age, “they stay in their family. You cannot just do whatever you want. You must have everyone’s permission.”
A Film of His Own. His short film, Culture, explores this contrast. His documentary looks at American teenagers and young adults in the breakaway stage, where they gain independence from their parents and extended families, and shows them juxtaposed with the lives of Asian Americans who stay within the family fold.
Halder has come a long way from being the little boy who loved to draw and paint, one of the children of the Sonagachi red-light district of Calcutta (literally “born into brothels”) where only his grandmother believed in his future and, though aware of his talent, he hardly dared trust his ambitions. Zana Briski and Ross Kaufmann’s work on behalf of the “kids with cameras” in her photography workshops, especially through KWC, the nonprofit Briski founded, has opened many doors.
Today, with opportunities to go to school in the U.S. and study filmmaking, to enter his work in competitions and win (Culture won the Cultural Diversity Award in the 2006 Pura Inspiracion Film Contest at the Tucson Film Festival), and to build an international network of friends and mentors, Avijit usually is perceived as the biggest success story of the Kids With Cameras workshop in Calcutta.
Yet his personal story, like those he documented in Culture, has poignant aspects. Still living in the U.S., attending New York University, on Avijit’s bebo page he gives his hometown as “Kolkata…dee best.”
And at times, as he says in the podcast “Beyond Brothels” about his old life in Calcutta, “I wish I still had that life. With my friends.”
Kid With Cameras posts photographs and information from time to time about Avijit and others from the Calcutta workshop documented in Born Into Brothels.
ATHENS, Greece – Gods, heroes and long-dead mortals stepped off their plinths into the evening sky of Athens on Saturday during the lavish launch of the new Acropolis Museum…
KEEP rolling BURNIANS !!!
P.S WHAT are you SHOOTING tonight …??? I got only one shot of red hawk ??? or something like that :)))))))))))))
Miss you all. I LOVE AIRPORTS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
AIRPORTS.. bus stations.. train stations.. service stations..
people look so far from their comfort zone and somehow lost.. in the lap of some corpertae entity.. at the mercy of busines gods..
but ( still hate that word ) they can lead to such mind expanding places..
virtual mind expansion terminals full of expectant people.
i’m a reluctant fan of airports.. loving where they lead to and hating the interuption.. the bombardment of advertizing.. as easyjet try to sell us scratch cards and crusty dry sandwichs which promise to atone for our national sins as we fly to somewhere irreversably changed through our ansestors ambitions.
what?
eh?
WHITE RUSSIANS on the dalmation coast.. such good times mixed with such visceral nourishment…
well hooked up with the red cross right now and c.r.o.m.a.c. clearing landmines.. 85% civilian casualties.. from a military weapon..
who was it that said the victors in war are simply the people prepared to lower themselves to the most base level?
hmm.
also.. strange to say it – punk is reuniting the balkans.. along with dance music and a healthy chunk of openminded youth.. lovely.. nourishing… like white russians.. yes.
so.. baby snoring.. films to develope.. crap film on telly.. another airport which lead to another hotel which lead to more previously unknown friends who direct us to unfound knowledge and eye satisfaction.. awaiting the lab.. awaiting the rush of seeing the snaps for the first time.. and then getting bored and just wanting to take more..
yes.yes..
white russians..
milk blood of airports, as bloody marys are the milk blood of flights.
yet still.. i’m no huge fan of airports..
yet walking around one with purpose greater than sitting on a beach with a wrist band on which gives free reign of a bar restaurant and beach where no locals wander makes the trouble more bearable.
okay.
i only actually read the post by civilian above before warbling this meandering nonesence..
and who cares? not me.
i have no credit to look at the essays right now..
civilian will do though.. i know i have interupted a no doubt interesting chat..
just noticed jim meandering on wedding photography..
and money..
don’t we all stick to what we know?
if money were the motivation for all things, how cynical and shallow a life this would be..
how shallow.
much love.. and back when i can afford more MB..
chunks
david, beate and top cat.
and to the london massv..
joe, antonTG, lassal, ben, ian (if your exhibition allows), and david..
and any other likely charecters due for the unexpected gallery crawl on friday..
disarmingly excited about meeting you all.. ANTON.. you have a couch.. will email.
peas n calimari
d
Friday?? I thought it was thursday.
civilian..
caio from europe..
your key is universal..
back in uncle sams garden?
rip out the weeds :ø)
sunday?
ahh.. maybe thursday.. john – what is your email?
david. John@john-gladdy.com. Apparently joe and a bunch of people are meeting at some hotel in central london for this thing and going from there but if its friday i will already be at glastonbury.
VIVA DAVIDB !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
All my Civilian LOVE to Tor Capa and Beate. xoxo
P.S I have the feeling that you know so much …whoever is your informative …
is doing an excellent work. Keep it rolling.
I love “journeys” .
afterall…I am a CIVILIAN of the world :))))
Focus…Kalamari…focus…
out of MB…
Herve…
I have to rush out of house right now…and will be out the whole day…but I would like to respond to your interesting point regrading the “discrimination within” that we face…sometime tomorrow I can write…
but one thing, as far as photography is concerned, caste discrimination is not one of the biggest problems that we face…and thank god for that…it is mostly sheer lack of knowledge and professionalism in todays media in India IMHO thats killing…anyway, there’s no point in grumbling about what we don’t have anyway…
So here is a bit of reality that is not fun to read. It makes me wonder about the reality of trying to sell any sort of art right now.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/06/21/arts/design/21spea.html?_r=1&ref=arts
It’s a mess and getting worse. What a difference a year makes.
herve
born in a brothel – zana briski
kids wit camera ws her initiative in my knowledge .
Jim you are right, it has never been easy to make a living as a photographer. Just ask me.
I’m still doing Ok and I actually have a few friends who are doing very very well despite the economy. As always, they are the ones with the most marketing smarts. The best marketers make the most money, not the best photographers, though the two are not necessarily distinct.
Put another way, a mediocre photographer can make a good living if he/she is a good marketer. A good photographer will fail to make a living at all if he/she does not take marketing seriously.
My advice to aspiring photographers, learn how successful photographers market themselves.
In any case, you must be selling what people want to buy.
Yes, Bodo, I was not talking about photography per se. I actually find that with little research, thanks to the internet, one can find a lot of photography done and exhibited by all genders, ethnies, and skin colors. Then, there might be the fact that they (non-white males) themselves, fall under criticism from their own for being western-centric, and etc… I mean, the debate just can’t be about skin color and which country you were born in, or what is your sex. We are not talking about quotas, do we?
I am not even sure to look at possible discrimination thru the prism of a few famous mega-agencies (it would be intersting to hear which P. in these agencies usurpated its job for being a westerner…), means that much, when for the 2 years I have been on this blog, I keep reading PJ and the business of publishing it are being re-invented and changing ever so fast, by the day, and that it’s a struggle for anyone.
Put another way, a mediocre photographer can make a good living if he/she is a good marketer. A good photographer will fail to make a living at all if he/she does not take marketing seriously.
————————————-
You can say that again, Gordon! I woud only replace mediocre by crafty.
There seems to be some exceptions to the rule (lousy-marketing greats), but I am afraid we almost all know their names, ie. not that many.
Even though some other arts may also carry unessential artists making a good living at it, there is definitely something in the craftmanship of photography, and what photographs/books people reallly like and buy, that simply suffices to itself, unrelative to how meaningful the body of work will be when the “dust settles”.
I think this is due in part to the fact that most of the (buying) public look at photos, without thinking “Photography” (not always a bad way to go about it, actually), often Jim’s point here I believe.
And that, contrary to what we “cognoscenti” keep saying here, people see what is in a photo as real. Good craftmanship will definitely bring that unfettered “real” to them.
WOAH!
We do live in internet times… I was just working one day and all this has happened…
DAVID
I am sending you an email
GORDON LAFLEUR
I love the photo 5744, its great, but you must tell me in photo 5816 were they discussing Joe? (Hehehehe…)
CIVI
You are hilarious!
IMANTS, BOB, ROSS
You are beautiful ‘white’ men BECAUSE you are intelligent, tolerant and human. You think deeply and are not
seriously bloated on your own self-opinion- you have the capability to listen rather than judge. Thats what makes you great and I guess thats what I am on about. Credit where credit is due.
ALL
For some reason the words ‘discrimination’ and ‘race’ consistently have raised their heads in the discussion about DIVERSITY. Please look deeper, this is far more complex a debate than something as ‘easy’ as skin color. The reason I say easy is because that is the obvious option for a reason to launch an attack on someone. Its simplistic in the extreme and its a bit like saying that the Birmingham Bombings were justified because well, the four murderers had a right to their opinion on the matter of integration and therefore were just carrying that opinion to its logical conclusion.
What I have seen repeatedly from well known and not well known commentators on this essay (aside from personal attacks) is a complete lack of comprehension of the issues that were being discussed, reasonably lucidly I thought.
There have been a few questions that have been asked here, that I would love to adress, but unfortunately its been a bit busy lately and actions speak louder than words, so please wait for another chapter in this debate to unfold…won’t be long, I promise…
There is just one thought I would like to leave you with and that comes from one of the masters of living, the Buddha,
“The thought manifests itself as the word.
The word manifests itself as the deed.
The deed develops into habit.
And the habit hardens into character.
So watch the thought and its ways with care.
And let it spring from love, born out of concern for all beings.”
Lisa
In the photo Johathan is actually explaining some sort of electrical engineering mumbo jumbo to my son.
Gordon;
I’ve found that the key for me is writing the articles that go with the pics. Often the words earn more than the pics, but it enables me to pay the bills (just) and work on a private project. With the amount they pay for pics here in NZ it is incredibly difficult to earn a living in the editorial market on pic sales alone.
Cheers
You were a child,
crawlin’ on your knees toward it.
Makin’ mama so proud,
but your voice is too loud.
We like to watch you laughing.
Pickin’ insects off plants.
No time to think of consequences.
Control yourself.
Take only what you need from it.
A family of trees wanting,
To be haunted.
Control yourself.
Take only what you need from it.
A family of trees wantin’,
To be haunted.
The water is warm,
but its sending me shivers.
A baby is born,
crying out for attention.
Memories fade,
like looking through a fogged mirror
Decisions to decisions are made and not fought
But I thought,
this wouldn’t hurt a lot.
I guess not.
Control yourself.
Take only what you need from it.
A family of trees wantin’,
To be haunted.
Control yourself.
Take only what you need from it.
A family of trees wantin’,
To be haunted.
Control yourself.
Take only what you need from it.
A family of trees wantin’,
To be haunted.
Control yourself.
Take only what you need from it.
A family of trees wantin’,
To be haunted.
Control yourself.
Take only what you need from it.
A family of trees wantin’,
To be haunted.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIEOZCcaXzE
…….take only what u need from me…?
Well, Lisa, if you have the time, maybe you can tell us what was meant by diversity. I just seem to remember it was indeed about the profession being basically the domain of white westerners (males too, but maybe not, I can’t recall). I like the reply from Gary on LS (i think that was the name) about how diverse VII was actually.
Though the diversity he mentionned was in terms of individual stories, not race, gender, ethnic, developping world. I think he was right, that’s where it’s at.
There were definite allusions to discrimination and race on that debate, no?
Buddha, absolutely. A few deep inhalations and exhalations, and there can be no defending, as there is no attacking. Just ripples on the surface of a wide ocean. He said that too! ;-)
Jim wrote:
“Photography was never a hugely lucrative profession, even in the US”.
Well you don’t say? That statement is in itself almost a revelation. Pardon my cynicism, but as always Jim it’s nice to have you on board spreading your bleated gospel of half truths about photography’s place in the modern market. Your whimsical quips just keep getting better and better.
It could perhaps be an interesting exercise in futility to get that Mike guy (your six shooter partner in crime who actually also had too much time on his hands) who tallied all of our collective comments to subsequently publish your quotes online. I for one would print it out and keep that little pocketed edition of photographic delight on my bedside table in place of my prozac, because a daily dose of your prophetic nonsense is enough to cure any ailment. Infact your turning into an online comedy act.
Hell yeah…and perhaps that may even lead to your own Wikipedia page? I for one would update it on a semi-ritualistic period with your latest installments on Burn. I can envisage you developing your own fan base of European emo groupies (and lately some Burn members) who would migrate down to Texas with their own Canon 5Ds in tow to watch in awe, as you ‘shoot’ bulls being desexed and adolescent couples making out with ice-cream dripping from their chin at country fairs, and then get you to sign their laptop screen showing the relevant Wiki page. This trip would be part of the rite of passage folklore for Euro Lonely Planet photog contributing wannabes.
Then they would all join you for after hours drinks and enchiladas in the local taco diner and hold hands while listening to you repeat your Burn quips. The Italian boy with dark dreadlocked hair is trying best to describe to the Texan waitress in his thick accent that the scars on his arm are the result of an ad hominem rage brought on from logging onto Jim’s wiki page. Meanwhile the sultry blonde who couldn’t take her eyes of you all day, especially during the desexing, racks up the courage to whisper in a soft French accent, ‘Jim, repeat what you saiddd of the impending death of documentary photography after the announcement of the EPF, because I looove your fantasy documentary theory, it is sooo Godardian’. Their would be a moment of silence as the assembled group waits in baited anticipation for you to adjust your belt laden with photographic pouches (as it is pulling down your trousers ever so slightly) and you then continue with the phrase, ‘fuzzy, grainy blurry…’
Yes, our collective future on wikipedia is indeed burning bright…
JJ
ALL…
please forgive my apparent absence on these discussions…i have had to go from Look3 right into the jaws of the Magnum meeting here in London…i assume you all know that i am working all this time and through this week to help us receive the best possible exposure for your work….my job this week is to make sure that Burn has a significant place in the Magnum channel system….i will keep you updated as the week rolls on…
i do have much to say about discrimination…a quick skim of the comments seems to have race and gender as a key areas of the conversation….please know that there are so so many ways to discriminate way beyond race and gender….age, sexual preference, religion etc are all rolled into the eclectic mix of potential discrimination…i must just quickly say that i have found that editors in general and photographers in particular are about as open minded as any group i have encountered in life….
no group of individuals encounters more situations outside of their own world than do photographers and the editors/curators who view this work…the very nature of their work and how they do this work gives them a world view second to none….
of course there must be exceptions and i am sure there have been some cases of rampant discrimination either towards photographers or their work ….but generally i think serious purveyors of photographs simply look at the photographs…it is more likely that photographic taste dictates the choosing of photographers and photographs way more than any of the above factors….
again, i AM working very hard now for Burn…i WILL catch up on all of your comments….
many thanks for your patience….
cheers, david
jim
m a vegetarin and have no idea wat bass fish hunting is all about….. lol …… any ways i gt the point …
also i wld lik to add tht i know photographers here who make annual trips to shoot weddings in the states and in the UK …. thus adding to the competiton !
i understand there isnt money if u shoot what u lik …… bt imagine if u manage to publish 6-7 books and u r a mgnum photog …. and only 20 ppl turn fr ur presentation in the capital of the 2nd most populated country in the world ! tht ws the situation here couple of yrs bck bt now it is changin its slow bt with gods grace it wil change …
regarding indian photographers
raghu rai – magnum agency
dayanita singh – represented by firth street gallery uk
pdn photo annual cover page indian photographer
have heard strong rumors about a delhi photographer is on fr the world press master class this yr
…
i dnt c any discrimination watsoevr
…
bodo
more than call centers i think bollywood drains a lot of photographers ….m sure u have been asked to shoot portfolios atleast a dozen times …. having worked fr bollywood ..i assure u photographers do shoot in crazy heat and quite often with an empty stomach …
thr is a lack of awareness and i dont think anthings wrong about discussing it …
it is blogs lik this that help me understand and force me to think wat m shooting … rather than figuring out dos and donts of working in bollywood .
/////
in my knowledge
zana briski a jewish female is intrested in setting up a NGO to give cameras to some1 born in a brothel
and DAH white male finds money and time fr a blog so tht any1 can learn something . .
bombing is quite literally an act which is a result of anger …and if u follow buddha u have to agree any act(good / bad ) done when angry does not deserve to b qulified as “logical conclusion”
if v trust a jury v cn learn / understand something …… just as v need o trust buddha to learn frm his teachings ….
my 2 cents sorry 2 indian rs ..)))
Johan, your screeds of alarm at the utterances of old countryboys are laudable and I always appreciate your contributions criticizing my contributions.
TO ALL,
let’s FOCUS all together …
MR. HARVEY needs the best energy …
He is finally working very hard for BURN…
yes, HE IS FOCUSED!!!
“i AM working very hard NOW for Burn” :)))
( to be perceived as a joke)
What not to LOVE…!!!
Thank you
P.S I AM THE HAPPIEST CIVILIAN ON EARTH !!!
Johan,
Nice try…..
Happy Fathers Day !
Thank you PETE …
HAPPY FATHERS DAY EVERYONE !!!
Jim. Before throwing the ‘bad photography’ stones around you should maybe check sohrabs work out.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/7889576@N05/sets/72157600171628850/
I think he/she makes very very good pictures, and while i tend to agree that the treatment on this essay shown here might not be the best way to go(IMO only) The photographers talent is undeniable, and therefore one can only conclude that the decision to treat the subject this way was intentional and NOT a result of ‘bad’ work.
john
John, I have no doubt it was intentional. But it tells me nothing about what he is photographing. He has used a technique to make the place he is photographing appear foreboding, sinister. Perhaps it is. But if I used the same approach to photograph at night in our peaceful little town, it would create an illusion of loneliness and foreboding, and in the process create a fiction.
If alien invaders from space knew only about our world from photos in recent years, they would conclude, erroneously, that it was primarily dark, grainy, fuzzy, foreboding and depressing.
And populated with photographers who couldn’t figure out how to use their cameras.
I don’t think photography needs to give us any answers, and photography can certainly be used to record an image without the photographer’s main intention being a document of time and/or place. His pictures don’t need to tell you anything. Perhaps they are not for you Jim, perhaps they are for himself. Perhaps Sohrab just likes to photograph and perhaps you don’t have to ‘get’ each work. Photography can be used for self expression, and even just for fun…. imagine that Jim, fun.
Do you feel the need to comment on each and every essay here? How about you start your own blog on what Burn runs? Better yet, why don’t you just look for once and try to refrain, even for a few days, from passing such personally important criticisms on people’s personal work?
“Perhaps they are not for you Jim, perhaps they are for himself.”
If they were for himself, why did he submit the essay to Burn? He could have enjoyed them in the privacy of his own home.
That is a ridiculous comment.
Sean, there is people giving positive comments on each and every essay and picture on this platform, and nobody ever tells them not to write. How comes that?
I don’t agree with Jim’s opinion about the essay, but I think just everybody has the same right to write whatever s/he feels like, or not? Just let it be..
Actually, I think the statement that “His pictures don’t have to tell you anything,” is strange. If they don’t, what’s the point of posting them?
Jim
I have to agree with you here.
“John, I have no doubt it was intentional. But it tells me nothing about what he is photographing. He has used a technique to make the place he is photographing appear foreboding, sinister. Perhaps it is. But if I used the same approach to photograph at night in our peaceful little town, it would create an illusion of loneliness and foreboding, and in the process create a fiction.”
gordon. sohrab has just left a comment on his essay which explains(to me at least) the reason behind much of the critique this work is being given. The guy shot it on a 400d with a kit lens that was lent to him…Now, knowing that id say its a bloody miracle he got anything.(and a testament to his ability/tenacity) Shooting jpeg too. that aint bad going at all. It does not mean that they are automatically valid, of course not, but it does show that even with kit limitations he came back with something. Not sure i could under similar circumstances.
John
Gordon. Also you mention craft. which is fair. But looking at sohrabs site I can see craft oozing out of everything there. Shooting a 400d with a shit lens at night and getting ‘something’ is also craft. I know id have come back with a card full of mud.
john
Hi John
No excuse John.
Click on my name and it’ll take you to my gallery site. If you check the metadata you will see that most of my recent personal stuff was shot with a Rebel XS, the cheapest Canon DSLR (under $500) and the kit lens. This camera has the same sensor as the 400d. Both the camera and lens are far more capable than you would imagine.
Gordon. I have a 40d a 400d a 5d and 2 5d mk2’s I Do know how they perform.
The kit lenses however went in the bin or were given away to students long ago. A 2 is the slowest canon glass i use now, mainly 1.2’s (I have bad hand shake….long story)
Checking your gallery I can still see some blur and noise from just low light stuff..this guy was shooting in the dark..on jpeg. id say no not an excuse but certainly a valid reason. He must have been down at 1/15ths or less wide open with the gain all the way up. Dont know about you or anyone else but with those settings im up shit creek. :)
John
I guess my question is, how did this end up on Burn? (rhetorical question, I know how things end up on Burn).
There really isn’t a direct correlation between noise and low light anymore. My 5D MII will do really nice stuff at 3200, and with a little Noiseware Pro, you will think it’s shot at 200.
I get the impression from the photographers reply that he isn’t particularly satisfied with the work, which makes me wonder why he submitted it. I would think folks would submit only what they thought was their best work. Interesting.
Hey John
I’ve got nothing against grain and blur, I play with it now and then too: I just think it needs to be done well.
http://www.pbase.com/glafleur/image/113201802
Hey gordon. me neither. My question on that pic i suppose would be ; Is the blur intentional on your part or a function of operating at the limit of what the camera can give non-supported?
this is at 6400asa 1/30 wide open(1.4) on a 24mm ….1/30 being my absolute limit for reasonable sharpness[even on a 24]
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3253/3069998701_0239d44ee7_b.jpg
only illumination[purposely] was a black light strip. The guy is the Punk photographer Peter Gravelle shot in a hells angels clubhouse.
j
DAH
please know that there are so so many ways to discriminate way beyond race and gender….age, sexual preference, religion etc are all rolled into the eclectic mix of potential discrimination…
————————-
Goes without saying, David. But this becomes a wider net that the one discussed on LS, where VII and PDN were taken to task for being, to be short, a white power elite (as concerns the P. publishing/agency world). Lisa mentionned in her DR article that center of power, which I took as following the (mostly) race/ethnic debate on LS. It is quite possible she meant that power emanated from something else than was talked about on LS, and reproached to VII or PDN (political agenda, generational, new-york P. world centric, etc…), but she did not tell us.
And we could also speak of dicriminations in subjects too, independently of who takes the pictures…Endless debate, really. best for people to give us links to photographers and outfits who illustrate the diversity that seems out there but under-represented.
BTW, I thought someone would have noticed, but talking about diversity and things changing ever so fast, the last TELEX from Iran: Twitter team 5 PJ team 0. PJ team did not even stand a chance! :-))))
Hey John, cool shot.
What the heck is a “Punk photographer” he shoots punkers or he’s a punk that shoots?
John, in answer to your question about my pic, a little of both. I was deliberately choosing to play with the blur. The noise was added in photoshop.
which makes me wonder why he submitted it
——————————————-
Jim, from what I gather in Sohrab’s reply, he may have submitted it quite a while ago, and it could be that in hindsight, like many “artists”, he thinks differently about it now. Also, maybe somebody he trusts told him it should be submitted.
Everytime I submitted something to BURN, it’s because some one told me to just “shut up and submit!” (I am extremely critical of my own work, much more than for anyone’s work here).
I do agree with you that nights are a special universe, almost a parallel one, where emotions, sensations might overtake documenting a special locale. Certainly Sohrab’s photography these nights may have intentionally or not, wandered, or erred, on the thin and thick lines between the 2.
Bodo, i didn’t forget my promise to you, i started it, then lost my appetite to finish it, i’m just finally building up my Burn appetite again. More on monday.
maybe worth a tiny mention here:
some images which i made during David AH’s Oaxaca workshop last year, now in BW magazine:
http://www.antonkusters.com/2009/06/21/bw-magazine/
cheers,
anton
Gordon. Sorry i forgot the language difference globally. Peter was one of the photographers that documented the whole ‘punk rock’ explosion in the late seventies. Good friend of sid vicious, in fact he gave him the tackle that killed him.
http://www.proud.co.uk/photographer-Peter-Gravelle_11.aspx
Anton. Nice pictures from what i can see on a screen. i think its worth more than a tiny mention.
Of course motion blur is a valid technique when in service to the image.
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/184/471428688_e4155492e0_b.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/158/424227830_9b8f0d7ce0_b.jpg
It can be overcooked or used as an elastoplast as well though as can any ‘look’. And it can also be a last ditch attempt to ‘get’ something when its just not possible to pull clean shots.
John
Anton :)))
Congrats..
fuzzy, grainy, atmospheric…
Obviously u know how to use your camera..
Unlike the typical 5D look with a VR superzoom..
all set in program..
Anton you are NOT lazy and it’s obvious..
Exactly the opposite from our usual ( big mouth strikes again ) typically, angry photog here.
Which all of his snaps shot with
that canon superzoom at f8…
Boring and annoying comments over and over..
Anton , again congrats and thanks for NOT being lazy..
:)))
To David Alan Harvey:
Dear David,
Sorry for this stupid post… I’m trying to contact you but my emails are being returned to me saying “Mailbox would exceed maximum allowed storage”. How do I contact you?!
Sorry again and thanks!
Max
Anton, you may be known on Burn as an incredible tech wizard but I hope we don’t ever forget that you are first and foremost a photographer, and a mighty fine one at that. Big congrats on your well deserved Merit Award from B&W mag!
hugs & hip bumps,
Patricia
john –
cool images. like’m both.
ps. if you want to see more: http://www.antonkusters.com/i-see-a-ghost. looking at it now, i feel some redundancy in there, but all in all i felt i captured what i was looking for.
Congratulationa Anton, good to see!!!! Cheers
panos –
you are right bro, i am NOT lazy :-)))
patricia –
hip bump right back atcha!
Actually, Panos, several of the shots on my web site were shot with an M3 and Summitar. :)
The camera ain’t the thing.
Anton. Just had a look. Good stuff. 5 is spectacular.
JIM…
you said referring to the Sohrab essay, ” a grainy fuzzy black and white story AGAIN”….i just cruised through the Burn archive and could not find one single story that matched your description….what again??? isn’t “grainy fuzzy” just an effect sometimes useful for telling a certain kind of story?? any difference between that and using a long lens or a polarizing filter or any other technique used for effect?? besides, i think if you were in Siem Reap at night , it might look pretty grainy and fuzzy to you as well….
cheers, david
P.S did you have to dodge that eye in or does god just love you :)
KERRY…JOE…BEN…IAN..LAURA…DAVID B…PAUL…ANTON…LASSAL ..who did i forget??
counting on seeing you thursday night..The Photographers Gallery 16-18 Ramilles Street – Oxford Circus
There has been lots of grainy, fuzzy shown here. Check out the essays. Grainy, fuzzy has become a cliche. I don’t like it. Apparently the photographer in this case wasn’t happy with it, either.
JIM…
i DID check out the essays….63 essays so far published….3 of which COULD fall into your grainy category…2 of them shot on Tri-x which is grainy….hardly a trend Jim….
Sohrab might have said he is not happy because this rather brilliant photographer is always going to say he is not happy because he is a perfectionist and a very very humble man……and he explained why….please Jim , please…..
yes yes, you are invited thursday night too….now THAT would be interesting if you showed up….
PATRICIA…ANTON…
i do have a very sharp color picture of you two bumping….however, i am trying to figure out how to make a grainy black & white of it before posting here as another cliche….
…laughing… and disappearing ( in the fuzzy grainy background )
Oh God, Jim, you are about the most boring old fart ever.
1. Photos dont have to be LITERAL tellings of what happened. A Photograph in any case isnt truth even if you do it the ultra straight way.
2. Do you not think using noise software is in a way anti your ethics? Atleast grain represents the truth of what was captured by the camera. Its more true than cleaning it up afterwards.
Jim, why do you hate photography? No fan of literature would ever dare say that poetry, fiction, sci-fiction, etc are bad because they arent the literal truth. Who would condemn Picasso’s Guernica becaus it isnt the exact representation of what happened? How come all other art forms are allowed to experiment, fail or succeed, but photography has to be a boring, literal capture and nothing else?
Rafal, I love photography.
Rafal,
Jim hates ART.. Anything else except a passport photo is artsy
Fuzzy grainy and not pure PJ…
Anything else than prom, highschool senior portrait, or DMV mugshot..
is suspicious and not honest according to our Jim..
Panos, that’s not quite right, either. I love art. Abstract art. It’s what hangs on my walls.
Jim, Jim, Jim…
I’ve been thinking of you!
Heard a line today that’s right up your alley.
Mine too for that matter.
Ready? Here goes…..
REALITY IS INTERESTING ENOUGH!!!!!
Don’t you just love that? :))
Anton.
Congrats! Good for you!!!
Go Anton go…
If aliens came to Earth and saw Picasso’s work would they get a proper idea of the world? Yes? What iof they read Kafka? You love art but why isnt photography allowed to be more then the straight “truth”?
Kafka? Dostoyefski?
How about the mighty yellow pages?
Jim, Cathy..
Yes reality is interesting enough..
But what reality?
Who’s reality?
Mine or yours?
Think of the biggest sci-fi
book ever.. Think of the BIBLE..
the best seller of all times.
Cathy.. although it’s 2010 you’ll be
Surprised how many folks out there
believe it’s a holy book written
by God….
Laughing… Sorry cathy but there is
No such a thing as reality..
It’s your perception versus mine..
Trust me.. or try to sell your bible to
an atheist our there..
Reality.. WTF is reality?
Do u believe that a fish or a dog has the
same view of this world..?
Nope…
Now cathy & jim think of an angry Fish
telling a fellow Dog that its perception is just ART..
But is it really the fish’s wideangle “right” or “wrong”???
Ahhh.. Kids.. Time to start thinking beyond “good or bad” &
“right or wrong”..
Sorry..
Big hug
Rafal makes a good point. Of course photography should be allowed to be more than just straight “truth” but it should also be allowed to be straight truth. All encompassing…almighty photography :))
(Hope you don’t mind my jumping in here Rafal)
(Hope you don’t mind my attempt at answering a question meant for you Jim)
I think some people like to take reality aka “straight truth” and turn it upside down, make it into something else entirely, art perhaps… while some people love reality just the way it is and don’t want to change it at all. Just show it as they see it. No wrong or right here but people have preferences…unless you’re the Buddha or something….then disagreement begins…as we have all seen here a billion times.
There is a book called “Loving WHAT IS” (not about photography but a great title.)
I would say that Jim is a LOVER OF WHAT IS. Nothing wrong with that.
Panos,
Yes, reality is different for each of us. I totally agree.
It’s up to each photographer to show his or her own reality.
That’s all.
Panos,
I just came in from shooting a Catholic procession…taking “Our Lady” (dare I call it a statue?) from one sanctuary to another. So I hear you :))
While our perceptions of reality certainly differ, I think it’s dangerous to give up on the idea of finding an objective reality through photography. Once we slip completely into relativism, we can no longer communicate. Photography seems to be rushing toward the pan-everything-ism that will make it irrelevant.
But Cathy ..:)
Jim alters reality with his mighty software…
jim alters “reality” according to what he thinks is “right”..
The reality of TRI-X film is grain and also the “reality”
of digital high ISO is also grain…
LEICA’s M8 “reality” is heavy grain on ISO2500
but the “reality” of canon5d with the noiseless software is
no grain…at high ISO…
so what’s the “real reality” now?
If Jims camera recorded GRAIN but cheater Jim removed it later
in his laptop.. Then.. Then..then..
Who’s not keeping it STRAIGHT?
who’s cheating and who’s not???
Who’s faking it.. Or to speak like Jim..
Who’s making artsy alterations ???
And to quote Jim again..
Nonsense..
Laughing..( and disappearing in a grainy background )
:)
Some 2700, about, comments under the buzz and at least 2000 are either directed to Jim or talk about Jim… ladies and gentlemen, please… Well, that includes this post of mine, for the first time though, but I can’t help it. This little data tells me more about everyone else than about him, Jim. As his name suggests he really seems to have power over you… I don’t really agree with 99% of claims he makes here but I, a miracle, managed to ignore it… This forum looks more like it should be called Burn Jim Burn.
It is really direspectful to people that do work and publish here… Good thing is that DAH solved one of the issues with ‘one post under the essay’ move… But how do we get something useful out of this forum, something that will help us all in learning this craft the best we can?
BTW, I love fuzzy and grainy, and it is so not trendy now, it is actually almost extinct from the photography world, so I have deep respect for Sohrab and anyone else who comes put in the open with this kind of visual language.
It is getting dark, I’m going out with Tri-X. Best to you all.
Velibor, you must have missed the hundreds of posts where everyone here was assigned greek names and the endless followups by folks assuming those names. ;)
Jim,:)
I’m afraid that you’re confusing
the :
(“recording” the world as a historian , think Thuckidides..
with the:
(“describing” the world and “expressing” myself through the prism of my own perception..
think Herodotus..
Jim..
at least CIVI does NOT PREACH
PHOTOGRAPHY.. Civi does not pretend
that knows right from wrong like u do..
A little bit of a difference here..
And now you playing dirty.. Hitting
people under the belt ..
So far CIVI treated u nice.. Even gave u a key..
And have u ever thought that NOONE ELSE BUT U ,
Only u attacked the poor Civilian that so far only
Positivity brought in this table..
No reason to be mean or hide behind others..
shame
My point was to Velibor about her idea that my posts somehow harm the photographic purity of the thread. I enjoy Civi’s posts a lot. I thought the whole Greek thing was terrific.
Ok.. I apologize then..
:)))
Although I still haven’t picked up my key. ;)
..and Jim.. It’s not that u harming
The Purity..
The opposite I’m afraid..
You do inject a lot of PURITY here..
That’s my only complain..
:)
While our perceptions of reality certainly differ, I think it’s dangerous to give up on the idea of finding an objective reality through photography. Once we slip completely into relativism, we can no longer communicate. Photography seems to be rushing toward the pan-everything-ism that will make it irrelevant.
———————–
I can imagine the same being argued when art moved from the classic style of the reneissance or the Dutch masters into cubism, dada, abstract, etc. Its a tired, old, washed up argument, because nobody is even trying to do that. There will still be people like you Jim, shooting indians at a county fair, straight, true just like there will always be people who paint portraits, also straight and true. But photography is art, or some of it is, and as art it is allowed, no, it is expected to do more. Art challenges our ideas and our perceptions, it goes beyond representationalism, just like photography has been doing and will and SHOULD and MUST continue to do. Photography isnt the truth anyway, as you showed so well, though unitentionally with your indian photograph when you chose to tell us all what that Indian was supposed to have been thinking. That wasnt truth, it was just your opion of what the truth may be. And you had no qualms telling us all what you thought that truth was. So you see, even straight, plain, no frills PJ shooting from a county fair bends the truth. There is no truth. Its not “relativism” its the stark, cold reality. A photograph is a 2d representation of a split second stripped of any context whatsoever. In your photograph, Jim, perhaps he just farted and was hoping nobody would notice? we don’t know anything except what you told us, and you didnt know either.
Panos, exactly my point. Jim, by removing nopise/grain is cheating and because he is a PJ that presents a problem. By removing noise, Jim, you are intruding on the captured image. You are bending the “truth” to a near snaping point. And the fact that you dont see that is the problem. People on a slippery slope never see that slope, do they, Jim?
Rafal, of course there is truth. We may each twist it for our own benefit, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. And while photography can never illustrate objective truth perfectly, that’s no reason to give up trying to show it at all.
My objection has always been, and I’ve said it many times, that if you are going to show photography that looks like documentary, that looks like truth, then it should be just that. Otherwise the distinction becomes so blurred that viewers reject everything as fiction. It’s a burden that photography uniquely shoulders. Few people tend to believe that a painting is objective truth.
Rafal, that’s a red herring.
So photography is over when film is no longer available and digital cameras no longer produce noise at high ISO’s? You seem to be arguing that I should never never vary the ISO on my digital camera because there is no noise at ISO 100 and that’s cheating.
Jim, u contradict yourself now..
U accused the photog of the latest essay
as he added grain .. How about :
“his camera saw the grain”..
Or do we only shoot at noon at 100ISO?
you slapped the photog VERY FIRST COMMENT..
remember?:)
Panos, I don’t really care how it got there. My post under his essay said nothing about him adding grain. I don’t like dark, grainy, fuzzy photos. I don’t care how they got dark, grainy or fuzzy.
Noise is fine. Thats not the issue. You admitted you temper with the file to remove noise. THATS an issue and not a red herring. It just shows that you are on a slippery slope you can’t even see.
Rafal, I burned and dodged in the darkroom as well, and used Microdol X rather than Rodinal to minimize grain.
Red herring.
And just for the record, I personally see no issue with editing files. Adding noise, b/w conversions, changing colors, etc. Then again I am not stuck on this photography is the literal truth mumbo jumbo and I see that not all photography has to be PJ, not all photography has to be documentary. Not all photography has to be truth, and most of it really isnt. As much as we wish to pretend it is, a photo is not truth, a photo tells no story, a photo takes no sies, a photo pretends to be nothing. Thats because a photo has no context, a photo is just a split second out of reality. You, Jim, failed to address your gross misstep vis a vis your indian photo, how you twisted the reality to impose your perception of it onto the image, how you twisted it to impose your thinking onto the Indian. Thats no red herring.
Rafal, I’ve addressed it several times, as you know. I have years of interaction with this tribe, I’ve been the direct object of of their disdain. The reaction of the dancer is the usual reaction I get when I show up. We have a history.
Soldiers in Iraq don’t have to ask every Al Qaeda fighter pointing a gun at them what their personal opinion is. They have a pretty good idea.
Another Red herring.
Photography has a special relationship with truth, much more so than painting.
Photographs have a connection with a real moment in time, and a real place almost like a clay impression. Yes, photographs are only pieces of paper, or projected light, or pixels on your laptop, but they fool our eyes into seeing things that once were. In this sense, photographs are almost magic. As a result, it is almost too easy to manipulate the viewer.
One advantage we have in a newspaper is that there is a cutline under the photo stating what the photo is showing. The viewer doesn’t have to interpret the meaning of the photo.
Hola, everyone,do I hear a drone sound?… :-)
You are constantly going back to the same discussion, same points made again by the same persons, and you all know that 2 days, 1 week a month from now, you will say exactly the same thing, to Jim.
So again, what did you shoot today?
I went to the Crissy Fields, huge expanse of grassy terrain, off the Marina and down from the Presidio Park, with the Golden Gate bridge hovering from not so far, Alcatraz a bit further.
Weather was beautyiful, plenty of week-end action, and at the end this little toddler building a castle with her tiny hands, one scoop of sand at a time, which she had to go get to the shore every time. Most unsuccesful effort, but she did not mind and kept at it, while her mother nearby was on the phone, not quite seeing the miracle under her eyes….
I thought once more that life is way too short, and I regretted not taking my dark shades, whioh can hide my emotions so well…
Later….
herve hello,
dimitri and katie – youve been missed.
i took pictures of (as always) both my children.
ethan (6) was putting on zac’s (4) superman cape on with great care as if he was sending his little brother off in his best uniform to the military. made sure the batteries were working, and that the cape and its ends were straight.
life is truly way too short. we have to pick our own battles dont we? but how often do we forget we are all human, energy and zest do run out and should not be perceived as weakness when they do. one needs to take advantage of youth, passion, responsibility, physical capacity before arthritis and cynicism settle in the bones.
Re: truth in photography. There is always a truth to be found, it just may not be the same “truth” we imagine to be the only one that is real. In Charlottesville I had an experience of Truth with a capitol “T” practically hitting me over the head. It was a painfully beautiful moment, one I will never forget. I wrote about it on my blog at
http://patricialaydorsey.blogspot.com/2009/06/best-fall-of-my-life.html
Patricia
you,
dear PATRICIA,
are an inspiration!!!
GREAT shot!!
Glad you’re ok!!
xox
One advantage we have in a newspaper is that there is a cutline under the photo stating what the photo is showing. The viewer doesn’t have to interpret the meaning of the photo.
——————-
Really? Well, I hope you do much better with the cutline in the paper than you did with the indian picture. Again, how do you KNOW what he was thinking? Besides whatever you THINK he was thinking? Im glad that you admitted that (photo)journalistic accuracy is a red herring for you, Jim, that now should put to rest any authority you ever claimed in the accuracy and integrity department.
—————————
Photography has a special relationship with truth, much more so than painting
—————————-
Gordon, I disagree. Photography has no relationship with truth. Its how we USE photography. The onus isnt on PHOTOGRAPHY, its on US. WHAT possible relationship do you see between a photo and the truth? A split second ripped out of time put on a flat screen/paper, stripped of any external context. The way we use it is therefore where truth or lies come into it. A photo itself says nothing. There is hardly any more truth to a photo than there is to a painting, the difference being that painters long ago dropped the deadweight argument about truth and took painting to new levels. Photography still needs to shed this outdated way of thinking.
Patricia, Patricia…. I’ve had “happy accidents” in my photography too, but they don’t usually entail physical injury; extreme photography perhaps? Now I know why you needed to rest up a bit after the workshop :-)
Seriously though; serendipity certainly played a hand there. The fact that you caught it on camera is probably a direct reflection of the goodness you see in others, and you just received a bit of Karma back. Glass half full etc….
It’s funny; but I was just thinking today how different the independent music scene is to photography. I’ve spent the last five months mostly shooting the indie music kids (mostly the punk, metal bands) and it blows me away how inclusive, supportive and open they are to others.
They continually support each other, stay to watch and support other bands on the bill, loan gear to others when it breaks before and during performances. The higher profile visiting bands loan gear to the up and comers, give advice and arrive early to support the younger acts. A really supportive atmosphere.
Diversity is encouraged and there aren’t any personal attacks, even though they might not get the other person’s point of view (towards music).
Maybe photographers would be different talking over a few quiet ones, or in the field maybe. I don’t really know because I mostly shoot by myself and don’t really get the chance to interact with too many other photographers.
What have I shot today? Absolutely zilch, nada; stuck behind the keyboard writing I’m afraid.
Take care everyone
ANTON
great work in B/W!!!
Will pick up magazine tomorrow to see it!!
Congrats….
anxious to see more of your Tokyo work!!
**
ANTON MY BOY,
Oime… I see a gentle soul…inside a fighters body…Oime !!!
OUR PATRICIA,
I see a fighters soul…inside a gentle body…!!!
PANOS,
have you ever tried to work as a public defender?
Oime…what a straight shooter …?
JIM,
Your key is under the fourth pot…next to the red camellias…:)
SIR SIDNEY,
it sounds like a Greek tragedy…
Oime…if they only knew…hmmmmm…
I LOVE YOU ALLLLLLLLL
‘He has used a technique to make the place he is photographing foreboding, sinister. Perhaps it is. But if I used the same approach to photograph our peaceful little town, it would create an illusion of loneliness and foreboding, and in the process create a fiction’.
Comparing your town and Siem Reap is like comparing apples and oranges. Besides, since when were photographers not allowed to bring their own sense of authorship to the table? That is what differentiates one project from another. The world would be such a horribly sterile place if everyone returned with the same photographs and style. Sohrab’s essay was not photographed with the intent of providing a purely objective truth for the following mornings edition of Texas tomorrow. A quick glance at his artist statement would confirm this, ‘I wanted to document the strange contradictions of a night in this erstwhile sleepy town through the perspective of a lonely outsider’.
Call it ‘personal documentary’ or what you will, but I can’t seem to locate where Sohrab stated that he was aiming for a p.journalists pure objectified version of events. Just another example of you throwing your baggage and experiences at the photographer’s own interpretation and approach.
‘If alien invaders from space knew only about our world from photos in recent years, they would conclude, erroneously that it was primarily dark, grainy, fuzzy, foreboding and depressing’.
If E.T ever got drunk enough and made the mistake of coming back, he would at once conclude that previously riding about on bicycles with kids was a waste of time and he would have been much better off trying to locate Paris Hilton’s breasts in gossip magazine photographs then compare them to Pamela Andersons. Again, the comparisons you make are like apples and oranges. World wide media is saturated with this kind of glossy grain free imagery and in direct proportion it absolutely swallows that ‘fuzzy’ look that you often try to describe.
‘If they were for himself, why did he submit the essay to Burn? He could have enjoyed them in the privacy of his own home’. Ha. Why did you bother posting that photo of you holding your Canon?
‘And populated with photographers who couldn’t figure out how to use their cameras.’
Unbelievable arrogance, get off your high horse.
‘My objective has always been, and I’ve said it many times, that if you are going to show photography that looks like documentary, that looks like truth, then it should be just that’. Ho hum, the world has changed, the notion of what documentary photography encompasses as an overall genre has changed significantly over the last ten years. Look at the top agencies to witness that. You are still stuck in the vortex of photographic thought that places a narrower more objectified description on the documentary approach.
‘Grainy, fuzzy has become a cliche’
According to which photography critics, magazines, online articles or respected documentary photographers has this become a cliche? Or is just derived from that little book of half-truths that you often delve into?
‘Photography seems to be rushing toward the pan-everything-ism that will make it irrelevant.’
Actually, given the rise of the internet paralleled with the number of photo-sharing websites that make it easier for the transmission of easy to use digital technology, at no time has there been such a large interest in photography and especially on a global scale.
‘I don’t like dark, grainy, fuzzy photos’.
Horses for courses. Quite ironic as now you are emphasizing your own personal subjective aesthetic to the finished product. What ever happened to objectivity??
‘I guess my question is, how did this end up on Burn?’
Did it ever occur to you that there people out there who have different preferences to yours?
‘My 5D MII will do really nice stuff at 3200, and with a little Noiseware pro, you will think its shot at 200’.
This statement screams of hypocrisy. Wow, looks who’s also playing the hand of god and artificially affecting light levels in post-production. Everything you have accused other photographers of in the past has come back to haunt you. A victim of your own carefully orchestrated charade.
‘I have years of interaction with this tribe, I’ve been the direct object of their disdain’
Wonderful way to finish & straight from the horses mouth. Alas it seems your communication difficulties are not only limited to Burn, and actually exist on a wider level.
JJ
Patricia, your link is not working for me. I’ll try tomorrow.
Rafal, we will just have to disagree. Certainly how and what and precisly when we decide to photograph something will change what a photo reveals, but the very nature of photogrpahy is that it captures and reflects a real subject in a real moment.
You want to know how real a simple photograph is? when someone passes away, the first thing the survivors do is gather the precious photos of the deceased person. No reality, no truth? Tell that to the relative of a recently deceased person.
Certainly photographs can be used, as any other medium to create images for personal exploration or for making so called “fine” art. However the power and magic of straightforward image making is the most powerful and lasting use for the camera.
Trust me, when we are dead and gone, all our artsy pics will be mostly forgotten and ignored. Our family snaps will likely be our only true and lasting legacy.
Gordon,
why do people gather photographs? Its just a matter of technology. 200 years ago they would have paintings. Does that make paintings truth too? The problem with photography is that it captures a moment. A picture of a woman crying could have dozens of interpretations. Which one is the truth? The photo doesnt say, the person USING that photo does. A photo isnt truth, nor reality. Its simply impossible for it to be so.
” Jim, by removing nopise/grain is cheating and because he is a PJ that presents a problem. By removing noise, Jim, you are intruding on the captured image.”
No more cheating than a PJ choosing a grainy film to record any given situation for stylistic reasons
or even the pure practical reason of low lighting. Choosing a developer to enhance the grain in a film
image is no different than the choice to reduce ‘noise’ in a digital capture.
Look at any scene-a bright landscape at noon or a dark alley at 2:00 a.m. There is no grain.
Hi All,
Does anybody come at Rencontres d’Arles? I’ll be from 7 to 12 july, please send me an email audrey.bardou@free.fr
best, audrey
MR.DAVID A.HARVEY,
thank you for all the support and the inspiration.
MAY THE EUROPEAN AIR BRINGS YOU HAPPINESS, HEALTH and WEALTH
P.S The UNIVERSE is with YOU…
It’s the OUZo…damnit
blame the ouzo…
A photo isnt truth, nor reality.
———————————-
Rafal, I do understand your point of view, yet, Gordon has a point too. Many photos have little to do with photography, and the philosophy of what seems to be, but which is not real or true.
They are simply records of people, or of places. Probably for 99,99% of people, photos are simply the collection of these records. Many examples, but just one: 3 days ago, on a site that helps find old friends or acquaintances, I found a picture of my high school class in 1972. I recognized faces, and recalled personalities. It is one instance where truth and real have no bearing on the result of a mechanical record of a group of teenagers seating in row in front of a photographer.
Now, I understand that 100 of these, from the same years become a photographic record of a period, thru the clothes we wore, the hair length, the faces, and that we then come into the realm of what “seems but may not be at all”, and does it really say something about the kids? Yes, we can do that, if we are intersted in photography, but as a mere photo, I can tell you thse people existed for real, and they are exactly recorded by this mechanical process.
I was sorry to see I was not in the photo, yet there is that girl I completely fell for, and the more she was not interested, the more I was infatuated. It was a specialty of mine, realy as a teenager!
Not that I need a photo to remember such formative years… :-)))))
VELIBOR…
you make a good point….there is not a single doubt that Jim often dominates the conversation over here under Dialogue…why?? because he makes comments that force everyone else to comment…nobody can resist the temptation to let his comments go….some are outrageous, some right on….
he is quite simply the voice of conservatism….
i am thinking about all of this….thinking about the whole comment mechanism….maybe we should put of this to good use…or better use….
i have been thinking for quite awhile about having readers do some real column writing…i have asked Joe to do a series of “think pieces”….Patricia, the voice of reason, should have an analysts space…Bob Black will no doubt rise to the top of his game as a columnist/analyst …..Mike wants to write about photographic history and should do so….the digital age has brought with it a whole generation of new photographers who are sorely lacking in knowledge of their heritage…they do not reject it, they want it, they just do not know about it…Mike has an important job….
ok, now what about Jim?? i think HE should write a column too…i am not joking…imagine Joe on the left and Jim on the right….but instead of all of this bickering , sniping , ramshackle style conversation where it is so easy to get lost, we organize it…make it work instead of working to make it…
perhaps we come up with a topic…then we let the columnists fly….the columnists can have their own comments under their own stories…that way a complete point of view is expressed…what we have now are a whole lot of intelligent well meaning folks just ready to kill each other when all they really need is a bit of monitoring of ideas….a place to be…a layout ….a design….one comment under the stories works….some form of equal time frame or space would work over here too….
this would be like having columns by Fredric Jameson on the one side and Rush Limbaugh on the other…yes, ok an exaggeration, but you get the idea…both with equal space and/or time….
ok, now running….back with more thoughts on this ..thanks Velibor for bringing it up….if we organize these thoughts , the whole apparent mess will suddenly have a form and could end up being most palatable or a least presented in manageable form….
peace, david
DAH–
I beg you, no. It would be a reward to give Jim his own space, he simply doesn’t deserve it. It would work — his blog would get a lot of attention here I think, but it’s playing to the lowest common denominator, like Bill O’reilly or something.
Maybe after the Magnum shindig we can talk about college/photography — love to hear what ideas you have in that area.
Any other PJ’s here, please comment on whether it’s appropriate to caption the Indian picture with thoughts not directly expressed by the person in the photo, based on prior experiences with other members of the same group. I’m a PJ student myself and this flies in the face of everything we are taught in regards to ethics/accuracy. Not on a witch hunt for Jim (though my feelings about him are evident) and I think I know the answer, but it would be nice to hear other professionals take on this.
jared,
it would be aking to saying we know what a black or jewish person thinks because we have an extensive experience with them. Though I wouldnt describe going to a fair once a year as enough experience to guess what every native american must be thinking at any point. Yet another example of Jim flying in the face of the rigid ideas he spouts here every day. Put mildly, it is unethical, put more strongly, well …..
Jared ………. Bill (Tiger) O’Reilly was one of the very best spin bowlers ever to play cricket
Rafal, thanks to your posts, if we had a few stale loaves of bread, we could feed the 5,000.
Sorry, David. Not interested in writing a column. Remember I’ve advocated for no posts at all here as Burn moves forward. This format was far more appropriate for Roadtrips than for Burn. Any column I would write would simply invite a train wreck. And, where would we keep all those smelly fish? :)
Jared, in your career you are going to meet many people that do not require a great deal of analysis to determine their state of mind.Trust me on this. :)
I did not, by the way, use this photo in the newspaper, but the neutral first photo I posted. The feature photo I chose to run was about the beauty of the Powwow, not the tribe’s interaction with the media, an interaction which is of little interest to the general readership.
for old pj’s and budding pj’s
for the seemingly rose tinted glasses to the horn rimmed cracked ones
‘i wanted’ vs ‘i will’
xxx
you see i want a lot.
perhaps i want everything:
the darkness that comes with every infinite fall
and the shivering blaze of every step up.
so many live on and want nothing
and are raised to the rank of prince
by the slippery ease of their light judgments.
but what you love to see are faces
that so work and feel thirst
you have not grown old and it is not too late
to dive into your increasing depths
where life calmly gives out its own secret.
– rainier maria rilke
I mentioned the expression “Reality is interesting enough”
not to give everyone further opportunity to disagree but to see if there is a place where we can meet and agree. So far I guess there isn’t. :((
There are probably better places on the web to discuss what is reality and what is not but regardless of grain and point of view can’t we say that work which includes photoshopped elements that never existed (see the work of Tom Chambers featured on burn) is not “reality based”? That “mockumentary” photography is not reality based? Just to establish some common ground?
Jim,
It doesn’t matter which one you ran in your paper, it was likely seen by more people here than there. This is real publishing, Jim, every bit as real as your newspaper. I would hardly call it “interaction” with the media either, from that distance. That’s not a relationship, you’re acting as a sniper, not even deigning to ask the guy what he thinks. If that has been their relationship with media photographers, no wonder you believe you know that they dislike your presence, they surely do. Still can’t “say it” unless you ask though.
My life only started getting interesting when I put away my pre-conceived ideas on what people were like before talking to them. Sorry you haven’t figured out that you don’t know everything about a person at first glance yet. You’re missing out.
Sorry to say it again, Jim, but you still haven’t addressed my direct question. Is it okay to attribute your own personal judgments regarding what someone may be thinking in a caption, based solely on your interaction with OTHER members of the same group, without actually asking the person shown in the photo?
jared, if you are going to pursue journalism, good luck. You are going to need it. :)
And I’ll answer your question directly, again. The purpose of a long term project or interaction with a group is to understand the people of that group or culture you are photographing. If after those years of interaction you are unable to draw conclusions about photos or the people, you have failed. You cannot write a story or present a photo essay without pulling things together in that way.
I’ve been interacting with this particular group for almost 10 years. And you have my conclusion. Accept it, reject it. But don’t suggest I’m just pulling this stuff out of the air. It just makes you sound silly.
Is it okay to attribute your own personal judgments regarding what someone may be thinking in a caption, based solely on your interaction with OTHER members of the same group, without actually asking the person shown in the photo?
Copy and paste because you still haven’t answered the general question. It’s a yes or no question, Jim, no reasoning necessary.
You’re the one who sounds silly Jim, dodging the question. Reporters should use direct quotes when at all possible (to let the people tell their own story, you know — best chance of objectivity) and attribute them to the people that SAID them. I understand you’ve had interaction with the tribe and have a feel for the GENERAL consensus, but that isn’t what you said when you posted the photo. So, I guess I reject your explanation, that type of journalism might have more to do with it’s downfall then anything else.
jared, if you want to keep chasing this rabbit, you are welcome to do so. But the rabbit is dead. You haven’t a clue what you are talking about.
David, one thing that would be really cool, regarding history of P. columns, is to to keep it within a coverage of the last 2 decades, or roughly. I think this is where we lack a sens of perpspective, and very simply, knowledge. I am sure more than half of us, at least, never hear dof Thomas Struth before you mentionned him, and still few are not too aware of the latest schools of thought, thats is, post Shermann, post-Eggleston, post Goldin. Parr, Peress, Richards, Gilden, most are in their mid-60s.
No problem as concerns the individual photographer, they are valiantly producing, but surely, ther are “kids” in their 20, 30 and 40s, who may be doing stuff that defines new areas, visions, etc… And here, we lack a sense of what is out there.
Jared, to be fair, Jim just posted the shot, without saying anything about the guy’s thought. It’s only in the discussion thereafter that Jim ad libbed on it and the guy’s thoughts. He was therefore not PJ reporting anymore, but in a conversation mode with us on BURN.
I also think to rail against him, as a coversing human being , for putting thoughts and emotions where there were not, is a bit simplistic. Just reading all the comments under all the essays on BURN tell us people constantly do that, or constantly trust the essyist’s telling them what is in the pictures. It’s not bad or good, just natural to do that.
What can be done is ask people to question their impressions and opinions. Most people, the 99,99% I talked above, will let you talk, then go back to being sure they have seen and felt what was exactly (for them) in the picture. It’s as if photography didn’t merely record shapes and spaces, but also thoughts, as facts.
Er… There might be a kid in his/her 70s or 80s ( was meaning mialeage, not age). But got to be emerging as we speak…
Well please educate me then, Jim. As I said I’m just a student, what is it that I don’t get?
It seems from your experience with the tribe, you’re a little uncomfortable shooting them, knowing that their general feeling towards you isn’t great. You attribute this feeling to one man’s expression as the epitome of the relationship between the tribe and you. Fair enough, but you don’t KNOW that’s what this guy is thinking — you didn’t ask. If you didn’t ask, you could be wrong Jim. Period.
The point is, you crucify almost everyone who’s published here — you seem to be able to find something in nearly everything to try and discredit the work. You use ethics or a false art/documenary debate or a… whatever. The same can be applied to you, do you see how obnoxious it is? When someone won’t just give their opinion, but keeps pressing and pressing, not saying anything different, but pressing over and over and over again.
Actually, Jared, I spend most of my time responding to other people’s posts. The threads I initiate are relatively few. You are the one that seems to be on a rabbit hunt in this exchange.
the rabbit is dead.
jared and jim,
what did you shoot today?
(not the rabbit i hope)
well i shot hands on wheelchair wheels in the dark and in the morning light.
Stuck at the computers today, I’m afraid. Production on the newspaper.
I’m shooting what I always shoot — whatever’s around me. Gonna take a walk down Main Street (downtown LA) in a bit (once the light gets a little nicer) to see what I can see.
I have just received an e-mail from Barack Obama, callin me his friend….. Yep, Gracie, time to go out and shoot some! :-))))
Gracie:
¨you have not grown old and it is not too late
to dive into your increasing depths
where life calmly gives out its own secret¨
Thank you for this, Gracie..it was just perfect for me today..
Civilian..i don´t know if you´ve been around but i want to say hello and….and….que mas? bueno…hola, querido amigo..i have missed you.
best
katie
…………dead but dancing………………. http://etrouko.com.au/art/josephmarcel08.jpg
thanks guys. katie, thanks for peeking.
isnt that all that matters?
you know what i really would like to see…
in my own perfect world
where there is responsibility waiting for me to fulfill,
necessities kneeling and available responding to our whims,
i would like to see you guys all in one room,
talking about everything these past few days have borne on BURN
looking at all of you and listening
me in one corner and one ginormous bucket of popcorn…
VIVA. MRS.KATHLEEN FONSECA is back !!!
Katie,I was keep sending good energia …Where the Fire …have you been?
I hope your essay is almost ready!!! I am waiting
My Gracie is shooting hands and she is working hard as a MUSE…
Davidb is traveling like me…We are the TRAVELERS :)))) with no MB credit:)))
LIFE IS BEAUTIFUL as long as I am BURNing on the air !!!
P.S rabbits …hmmmm…my best friend is a rabbit.WHAT NOT TO LOVE !!!
I miss you all.
We are waiting for LONDON BURNIANS to give us some updates the SOONESTTTTTTTTT.
Come on …Photophilosophers …BURN the roof down…
Yes…a bucket of popcorn with ouzo, red wine,beer and whiskey maybe some margaritas
and keftedes…BBQ ribs , apple pies some moustalevria ,mousaka …fire on the beach ,the moon up there
talking about the history of photography and taking dark, grainy pictures…
YIKES…I sound so tedious …ok ,mates…Formula 1 in England is over!
Italy-Brazil is over
Got to catch my plain to Happiness …
PLEASE, keep BURNing.
Shall I say,
I LOVE YOU ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
My 79 year old mom is visiting, here is a snap I took as we left to go for lunch.
Nobody believes she’s my mom (I’m 62)
sorry, forgot the snap http://www.pbase.com/image/114159338
or shall I say :
Got to catch my plane to Happiness …:))))))))
Where is BOBblack and so many …I miss YOU all.
I am addicted to BURN…I am addicted to BURNIANS…
Besos, antios, farewell, see ya, bye, hasta manana, geia sas, ciao…
Let me echo Civi, where ya been Kat?
MR.GORDON,
I wanna kiss your mom !!!
I mean, she looks amazing.
I am old and goodlooking BUT she is …
O.K …I guess it’s in the family
VIVA!!!
She’s looking for a boyfriend Civi, are you single and male?
Jim, a question. You wrote “Remember I’ve advocated for no posts at all here as Burn moves forward.”
If that is the case, why do you post?
Why not? As long as posts are allowed, I’ll post. I think Burn, though, would be better off with no posts.
Jim..why not? Obviously your call. Counterintuitive to my way of thinking. The idea of advocating for something but doing the opposite is foreign to me.
Gordon
aayyyyynooowaybaby..CIVILIAN IS MINE, mio! Your mom is gorgeous, intelligent looking, sharp as a tack, and that revlon red lipstick…i agree she could be serious competition for me for Civi´s attentions, and we don´t even know the gender of Civi´s attentions but i´m guessing he´s a red blooded Greek HE and his attentions are at least as HE as he is. I could be wrong but..hmm..
Anyway, Gordon, i have been traveling, working, angsting, and, um, well actually i have been painting. This Burn world, the hard core criticism of the photography, tearing it apart for no good reason like it´s blurry, arty, bad, dissing work for all the reasons that happen to make me love a photo..feel i´m fighting the tide. It´s worn me down. Seems like everybody thinks the street is dead anyway, privacy issues are very sticky, getting robbed is a constant threat and street photography these days is all about the light, a la Trent what´s his name. We have a 7 month rainy season and dark is all i have and so blurry is often the best i can hope for. And i love what blur does to a mood. Besides who´s ever gonna see my work? Taking a break. We´ll see how it goes. Yeah, i know this was more than you wanted to know but it´s what i´ve been doing, thinking about this stuff and these fights..i came back and people are STILL talking about Jim´s parade picture. i mean, Gordon, need some time to get messy with paint and maybe will find out that´s not gonna work and i´ll be back. In the meantime, guy, keep spreading your good common sense thoughtful stuff around here. Burn needs your level headed philosophy..
Civilian..i know you´re addicted to Burn and Burnians and you give so much here..but you have my e-mail..use it if you ever want to share a secret or two, or not..maybe just a smile. Love you Civi´..Gracie too. Your poetry Gracie is getting sooooo good.Keep it up!
love to all of you ALL
kat=
Erica, I’m advocating for removing the forum from Burn and putting it somewhere else. I don’t think the chatter fits in with where David appears to be going with this site.
“Remember I’ve advocated for no posts at all here as Burn moves forward”
The symptoms have been correctly identified, so it’s now time to swallow that medicine.
JJ
Johan, glad you agree with me that nobody should post here on Burn. David, that’s two votes.
Perhaps leading by example would speak volumes.
I appreciate your concern, Erica.
I vote that everyone who thinks there shouldn’t be posting on burn just implement the result of their own vote….
@kat
dark, blurry, rainy….sounds like mood to me. Nothing wrong with that.
@anton
great work on the B&W stuff, amigo…
@all
trying to keep up and, as kat pointed out, not lose the faith…I have been trying to exorcise traitors…
“Our doubts are traitors and make us lose the good we oft might win by fearing to attempt.” – William Shakespeare
@ Gracie
once more you sweep gracefully intothe room with long lace and glowing blond curls with the words I need to hear at the moment….rilke…
can I share your popccorn if I bring a ginormous diet coke?
waning light here, good light to all…..
a.
“Johan, glad that you agree with me that nobody should post here on Burn”
Attention seekers come and go here on Burn exhibiting mild signs of fever, however you are at that unfortunate rabid stage where it would be best to swallow your own medicine and check out permanently. Go figure.
JJ
What’s been going on on?! We no longer can post on Burn? What I think should happen is Burn becomes the venue for emerging photographers and David goes back to posting on his previous blog ‘At Home with David Alan Harvey’ and we all get to chime in there.
Davin, that seems reasonable.
But it’s David’s web site and he’s in Magnum meetings. Hopefully he’ll find some time for Burn soon.
*yelling over the din*
HEY ANDREW B!…you and Graice (oh yes, and Civilian too) are pretty good quote churner-uppers..this was another fantastic bit of inspiration today..thanks!:
“Our doubts are traitors and make us lose the good we oft might win by fearing to attempt.” – William Shakespeare
ALL
haha, the one with the biggest mouth (and not much else to do with his life) is advocating silence on Burn..LOL..that’s like a nympho pitching abstinence..
that’s..funny..very funny..
well, back to defragging my hard drive..*still laughing*
kat
Davin,
Im all for that. I really think the photography should be disconencted from the noise. I wouldnt cut this totally off. I would allow posting on Burn under the images and essays. Establish a login system, and you get 1 post per image or essay. No breaking these rules for anyone except the photographer. And no more anonymity. Real names, links to work or at least someone at Burn knows who is who. But Dialogues shouldnt be here. Im sorry but this shouldnt be a place for people like Jim to try and be the center of attention. Mindless chatter is taking over, and taking away from the photography. That shouldnt be. There should be a link to Road Trips and have the discussions there.
So, Kathleen, what are you going to do when David is featuring famous photographers commissioned work here and someone in a thread linked the the front page quips,”that’s like a nympho pitching abstinence..” in reference to another poster. Those corporate sponsors are going to get a real kick out of that. Which is the problem. If this is going to be a slick magazine featuring the best photographers in the business, where do these forums fit in?
Davin, if I have become the center of attention, it is because other posters have made me so. It takes a village, you know. I just post my opinions. And I’ve stuck to the one post per essay.
tearing it apart for no good reason
————————————-
I bet the greatest tearing apart of one’s photography will always come from a workshop with David, Kat.
We have to accept that we all have different standards in the way we look at photography. David made never any doubt that he intends to judge and look at our work against the very best. I think this is very demanding but the best way to go about it, especially on a website that is not just about looking at photos, but really aiming at uncovering and coaxing talent, and to have it published or employed.
Since Jim’s shot is apparently still part of the discussion, I want to add that I liked Jim’s first powwow image, despite needing a bit more processing.
And Jim knows very well that the other shot was not good enough technically to be printed in the press (it had little to do with making the low-light blur work, as Sohrab did. Look at Anton’s shots published in B&W magazine, blurred too. If Jim could have shot steady at 1/15th, he’d have done it).
I think after 160 years of people making equipment and photographers handling it, that is 160 years of craftmanship, I think we should not be criticized when applying standards, especially the ones we learn to apply to our own shots.
Jim, IMO, sponsors will only care about the work posted, not what people with enough or too much time on thir hands,, or feeling like a community of kindred souls, write under. Thes guys are going togo straight to the substance, the work. Hey, just like we do ouselves. Absolutely no correlation between me writing and me shooting. None.
Hi Jim, Hi Herve,
Taking over the world 100 words per minute?
Magnitudes of love to you both and the rest of the BURNian nationalities.
“I would allow posting on Burn under the images and essays. Establish a login system, and you get 1 post per image or essay. No breaking these rules for anyone except the photographer. And no more anonymity. Real names, links to work or at least someone at Burn knows who is who.”
jeez….someone is missing communism here….
Bernardo – you nailed it.
Bernardo,
yeah, thats funny. You are a funny guy. Im glad communism for you is the butt of jokes, a punchline. Millions died so you can make your little joke.
BODO: I sent you an e-mail regarding my detailed views of Marina’s work. Once the effort hit two pages of a microsoft word document and i was only on the third image i realised that it would be over-the-top to post here.
Discussing Marina’s work image-by-image would make for a great skype session as there are so many trinkets of information inside the images to discuss as well as the techniques used. as well as how it all hangs together. You really could tug at it like a sweater and try to unravel all the cool things that are going on there.
Let’s skype if you want to discuss it. You now have my e-mail.
Joe
I’ve been away from Burn for too long, yet again. Where to find the time?
Anyway, any word on a London gathering this week or next? I’ll be hanging out in central London on Thursday.
Best,
Paulyman
Hej Rafał
I understand your feelings exactly. A few rules equal communism…. something new for me.
I’ll be away from the computer on Friday and since i’m taking the next three days off work it feels like friday. So here’s what i’d offer this friday.
Check out:
In the Rhtythm of the Land
and
Foster Family
http://www.AdamPanczuk.pl
JOE
just got back home from work and saw your mail in the inbox…have not yet gone through…sureply i would like to discuss with you about M’s work…i look forward to the Skype sessions…
BTW, i tried to search your email/name on Skype but I could find none…so I could not add you…my email you know…please send me an invitation
@ Paul Treacy
If you look a few pages back, I think DAH mentioned you, Joe, Ben et al. and the Photographer Gallery on Thursday night…
The current essay isn’t showing up on the front page of the site for me. I had to go into the thread to see it.
Thanks, Mr. Russell. I’ve been neglecting my reading here.
The latest essay strikes me as “Where’s Waldo” for the Art crowd. Find the symbols, nod head knowingly.
DAVIN
the one post rule is only under the photo essays / selected photos..post away in discussion!
I find it impossible to find comments on London on this post. Is it this Thursday somewhere? I could book megabus to get there and give a shout to Dakowicz to join, but I’d need at least a place and a date. If somebody knows, just email at joni.karanka at gmail dot com.
Joni
The DAH message I was referring to was
“counting on seeing you thursday night..The Photographers Gallery 16-18 Ramilles Street – Oxford Circus”
That’s all I know.
BTW, if times are really tough for London photographers, you could probably make a reasonable living in Great Newport Street selling little maps with directions to Ramillies Street to confused-looking Japanese tourists.
Hi:
Anyone knows what time is the get together at the Photographers Gallery on thursday?
Hope to meet some of you guys down there.
Cheers,
Armando
I’m rather disappointed that I’ll not be able to make it to London for any of the events in the coming week, especially a burnians gathering.
If there’s any talk of further uk burn gatherings on Thurs I’d definitely be interested.
Cheers
Pete
I’m not sure it’s an open party in London…I have a feeling there may be a guestlist. is this right? I’d love to meet some folks but don’t want to risk it if so…
Is Burn a gallery or a Magazine? I post this question because at the moment it seems to be a gallery showing photo essays and the disconnect between what is intended (as written in the introductions) and what is shown (the photographs is) beginning to grate a little for me.
At the moment, words are relegated to a minor caption or are absent completely. Ironically, this is the opposite of the majority of printed magazines and newspapers! I want to gain as much information from a photograph or essay as I can; either the reality of what is being shown to me or the imagination / counter-reality of the photographer.
I’m not speaking of any essay shown here so far; I’m just saying that it could be better.
I suppose I should speak by example but that will require that I bare my soul. maybe.
Good light,
Mike.
@ Ciara
Oh yeah, maybe the thing on Thursday is the Magnum party, which would definitely not be open house!
Anyway, Thursday is the day I always re-arrange my collection of 19th century pottery owls.
haha. sounds far better to me Paul
if it had been an informal meet i’d have been well up for a trip to london. maybe we should try to organise one at some later date
Paul, I finally can’t make it. If I went to London on Thursday I wouldn’t return till Friday afternoon, and the government wants to interview me around 11am due to my six month unemployment… meeting I’ve already rearranged from last Friday… pity, it was about ten quid return to London…
Wish my excuse were pottery owls, btw ;-)
More ranting on Mockumentary photography…
I was describing “fictional documentary” to my husband this morning on a hike and he asked
“What’s the difference between fictional documentary and a shoot for a Gap ad?”
Ummm….aside from the fact that the Gap photographer gets paid? Probably nothing.
Don’t get me wrong…I enjoy a good mockumentary now and then. I can’t wait to see Sacha Baron Cohen’s upcoming BRUNO but there’s no way I’m going to mistake his Bruno for (clothing designer) Valentino as shown in the wonderful documentary VALENTINO: THE LAST EMPEROR.
Jessica Dimmock’s Ninth Floor was a three year project about heroin addicts that got her a membership to the VII network among other things.
http://blog.photoshelter.com/2008/04/jessica-dimmock-and-the-ninth-floor.html
In this day and age of competition there are many who want the recognition but don’t want to put in the hard work like Jessica did. So what to do? Stage a fake house full of fake heroin addicts? Sure, why not…
I have no problem with photographers doing this. I’m just not inspired by it.
Sam Abell gave a talk last night about his photographic life. All the people he’s met, the situations he’s found himself in as he’s connected with the world thru photography. LIFE LIVED WITH A CAMERA.
IMHO life lived with a camera is a very different animal than playing the role of “director” of your own fantasy world.
The good news is we all get to choose what type of photographic life we want.
I often wonder if those who praise, for example, the current essay would actually pay money to watch it. Say $10 to help the photographer keep shooting the same stuff? Do they really consider it valuable? Art? Or is it just more eye candy on the web.
Maybe a “support this photographer” donation link below each essay. But your money where your mouth is. That kind of thing.
Well, we know you wouldn’t be losing much Jim. ;)
MIKE R…
bare your soul mate, bare your soul…..do that and you will indeed be an author…..
So, Jared. Will you buy this photographers work? I’m sure he would sell you a print.
It’s funny; but I was just thinking today how different the independent music scene is to photography. I’ve spent the last five months mostly shooting the indie music kids (mostly the punk, metal bands) and it blows me away how inclusive, supportive and open they are to others.
They continually support each other, stay to watch and support other bands on the bill, loan gear to others when it breaks before and during performances. The higher profile visiting bands loan gear to the up and comers, give advice and arrive early to support the younger acts. A really supportive atmosphere.
Diversity is encouraged and there aren’t any personal attacks, even though they might not get the other person’s point of view (towards music).
Maybe photographers would be different talking over a few quiet ones, or in the field maybe. I don’t really know because I mostly shoot by myself and don’t really get the chance to interact with too many other photographers.
What have I shot today? Absolutely zilch, nada; stuck behind the keyboard writing I’m afraid.
Take care everyone
Depending on the price, I would, Jim. But I’m a poor student who’s having an engine replaced in his car — so now’s not the best time.
This is tired Jim — you made this assertion that no one would buy these photographs at least once (maybe twice) before, and it was found out that they have indeed sold prints — as have I for that matter. So yes, there’s a market for this stuff Jim — not everyone hangs abstracts at their ranch.
Jared, praise is nice for a photographer, but money is what makes the work possible. Every time I ask someone if they are buying the stuff, they say, “Well, no, I can’t afford it.” That’s why galleries are closing like crazy I guess. You can always look at it free on the Internet. But who is going to pay for the work?
CATHY…
there are many ways to live life with a camera…so one must just pick a way and stand by it….if photography is indeed a language, then those who have something on their mind will say it….so many photographers have indeed earned their living photographing for media who were selling their pages to advertisers….and surely someone has to pay for those pages so that photographers may earn a living…but some ideas are not so immediately commercial and are the result of a certain intelligence rather than pointing at an inherently “dramatic” subject….and all of us are inspired by different things…and those inspirations often change with time…some here are confused by all the different ways of photographic thinking and shades of emotion…throughout history folks have been somehow fearful of people who step out of the comfort zone…the norm…the standards that have been set by others for many many different reasons…sometimes it can be quite pleasurable to just look at pictures for what they are, not for what they are not….Sam did live the photographic life for sure…i have often been curious why he stopped….nobody is more eloquent at describing the meaning of a picture than is he…so, try to imagine his words used to explain Richard’s work….i think you might think quite differently after…
where are the lowriders??? anxious to see your work…
cheers, david
Jim, why do you ignore parts of people’s post that you can’t respond to with your limited thinking? You do it all the time, which may be the reason post about you so much.
No time for the non-answer that’s surely coming. I’m off to shoot — surprise me with something intelligent for when I get back.
jared, I guess “somebody” will buy his stuff. That not you, though?
Hi there;
How are you? Well i hope. I was wondering if you minded posting this for me? The link to our news report is hilarious, nothing like a good laugh.
It’s funny; but I was just thinking today how different the independent music scene is to photography. I’ve spent the last five months mostly shooting the indie music kids (mostly the punk, metal bands) and it blows me away how inclusive, supportive and open they are to others.
They continually support each other, stay to watch and support other bands on the bill, loan gear to others when it breaks before and during performances. The higher profile visiting bands loan gear to the up and comers, give advice and arrive early to support the younger acts. A really supportive atmosphere.
Diversity is encouraged and there aren’t any personal attacks, even though they might not get the other person’s point of view (towards music).
Maybe photographers would be different talking over a few quiet ones, or in the field maybe. I don’t really know because I mostly shoot by myself and don’t really get the chance to interact with too many other photographers.
What have I shot today? Absolutely zilch, nada; stuck behind the keyboard writing I’m afraid.
And; just to lighten things up a bit… You’ve got to see this clip from our news last night; an interview with a guy who got stuck in his clothes drier while looking for a pair of undies…. Of course he had taken his jeans and undies off before getting stuck and he required the fire brigade to extract him….. Like they say, truth IS stranger than fiction.
http://tvnz.co.nz/close-up/man-vs-clothes-dryer-result-stuck-2798852
Take care everyone
JIM…
you focus quite a bit on photographers getting paid….me too….and always a good point…but the model is changing….
please remember, no reader of your newspaper ever paid you for a picture any more than Jared is going to pay for Richard’s pictures…the advertisers at your newspaper, in order to sell their products, paid you for your pictures all these years…
please think about it when you talk about art…..throughout the centuries ONLY art lasts……and art is always personal…..
cheers, david
DAVID,
Anne Henning and Kelly Lynn James are both in town taking workshops. It was great to see Anne last night (you may recall she and Arthur Meyerson were the two who first told me to look you up.) Hopefully Anne will introduce me to Kelly Lynn tonight…it could be a mini “burnstock” :))
The lowriders cancelled due to bad weather…their cars are too valuable to get wet! I wrote about it here. I am working on connecting with them privately… Soon I hope. In the meantime this is rodeo week in Santa Fe. I will be shooting there starting tomorrow. The only negative about having a great photography program down the street is that every one of the workshops students will be at the rodeo too! Oh well… :))
ps Sam is working on a book…about America!
CATHY…
please give my best wishes to Kelly, Anne and Sam…three of my favorite people…
David,
Tried you on your AOL . . .
Congrats on burn.
Send me a shout – its been a while since TPW.
A
David, the bottom line is that someone has to pay. And there seem to be a lot fewer someones doing so these days. If these artists can create art without making money, great.
I love art. I love photography. I buy photo books and original paintings because I want art to continue to be made. Lavish praise doesn’t pay the bills. And I’m afraid that once photography is seen as lots of folks out there creating “fiction,” as the current photographer says he is doing (and seems to be the trend these days), photography will become irrelevant, and nobody will pay the bills.
Cathy
There is documentary photography, then there is illustration. Both are valid, but very different. Is using photography to construct images so different from using paint and canvas? Just another medium. Would we invalidate a painter because he manufactures his/her images instead of capturing them? Of course not.
you wrote “IMHO life lived with a camera is a very different animal than playing the role of “director” of your own fantasy world.”
Absolutely. That is the point.
Gordon.
What is the point? That all are valid forms of self-expression?
No doubt.
My intention is not to trash anyone or say that there is a right or wrong here.
Personally mockumentary just doesn’t do it for me…that’s basically all I’m saying.
I’m very happy for Richard. Hopefully he is fulfilling his dreams with this work and inspiring others who want to do a similar type of photography.
The more work I see only makes clearer what I DO love to look at and shoot myself…and why I feel that way. I consider that a good thing!
It’s now official: Kodachrome is dead. A moment of silence for a technological product that had a soul.
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/eastman-kodak-will-retire-kodachrome-film
Cathy
Yes, seeing work here on Burn, especially the stuff that challenges us, helps us to examine and expand our appreciation of what photography is. Discussion helps to question and firm up our own convictions. I find writing comments invaluable as it forces me to form my feelings into a hopefully coherent form. It has changed the way I approach my work.
Killer stuff on your site BTW.
Sidney
re: Kodachrome.
Yes I heard that on the radio coming home tonight. I thought it was gone already. The end of an era. Yes it was good stuff, RIP, but onward and upward. Truthfully, I don’t miss film at all, except in a nostalgic way. Even my old 6mp Canon Rebel blows the doors off of any 35mm film I ever used.
Kodachrome question for anyone who is familiar with its features.
I’m still using film. Never used a digital camera, or at this moment thinking about it.
I’ve also never used KODACHROME. Can anyone who has used it compare it to say, VELVIA, or Provia or what ever. What made it especially special. I never used it because processing was such a drag.
Well, it was all we had, really. It was stable when the E(x) processes were not. There’s a lot of nostalgia here. :)
And, besides. Paul Simon used it in his Nikon.
It’s funny; but I was just thinking today how different the independent music scene is to photography. I’ve spent the last five months mostly shooting the indie music kids (mostly the punk, metal bands) and it blows me away how inclusive, supportive and open they are to others.
They continually support each other, stay to watch and support other bands on the bill, loan gear to others when it breaks before and during performances. The higher profile visiting bands loan gear to the up and comers, give advice and arrive early to support the younger acts. A really supportive atmosphere.
Diversity is encouraged and there aren’t any personal attacks, even though they might not get the other person’s point of view (towards music).
Maybe photographers would be different talking over a few quiet ones, or in the field maybe. I don’t really know because I mostly shoot by myself and don’t really get the chance to interact with too many other photographers.
What have I shot today? Absolutely zilch, nada; stuck behind the keyboard writing I’m afraid.
And; just to lighten things up a bit… You’ve got to see this clip from our news last night; an interview with a guy who got stuck in his clothes drier while looking for a pair of undies…. Of course he had taken his jeans and undies off before getting stuck and he required the fire brigade to extract him….. Like they say, truth IS stranger than fiction.
http://tvnz.co.nz/close-up/man-vs-clothes-dryer-result-stuck-2798852
Take care everyone
Kodachrome
They give us those nice bright colors
They give us the greens of summers
Makes you think all the world’s a sunny day, Oh yeah
I got a Nikon camera
I love to take a photograph
So mama don’t take my Kodachrome away
truly lavish praise doesnt pay the bills.
equally there is no reason to stump the bug with your fingernail
if you care one tad little bit about said person’s creativity.
my eyes are not the color of jade, my curls are fake but still curly.
always you can look at pictures and not say a word on the ones you wont buy
but you can lavish praise on THE one among thousands of pictures
that make your heart skip one little beat.
Peter
A whole different pallete than Ektachrome or Fuji, more neutral, very accurate colour, very very sharp, very fine grain, especially the old Kodachrome 11 (ISO 25)
GRACIE
my curly Q..
love it….
xox
PETER…
what Kodachrome had was incredible tonal range, saturation without being gaudy,sharpness and a solid BLACK….nothing else in color had a good black..everything was shades of gray…..as a black & white photographer i always wanted a solid deep black and in color even more so….the only other transparency film to have black is Velvia which i used when Kodachrome was basically gone awhile back…if you check out my Divided Soul, you will see a mixture of Kodachrome and Velvia…older work KR, more recent Velvia…the other reason for using Kodachrome was that it was the most archival color medium around…Ektachrome or any E6 process was gone in ten years…even some of my old Kodachromes which were inadvertently stored in a hot attic for 40 years look like they came right out of the box…
of course the printed page cannot really get at heart of KR..that film was best projected….
no matter how good we are today with our technology, i have yet to see anything up on the screen that will match a picture fired through a Leitz projector and Kodachrome shot with a Summicron….then again, i have never seen anything that will match a colloidal print either…
so ends my only tech comment on Burn….
cheers, david
Thanks Gordon.
Oh. I’m starting to feel a cold sweat come over.
Thanks David.
this is the obesrvation I love.
Yeh , I’ve photographed a bit with Velvia and fell in for the Blacks your talking about. When I look through a loop on a light box I just feel like I was born to be a photographer on seeing these blacks your describing. Beautiful, like the universe..
David Alan Harvey (I hope I spell your name right)
Thanks for the superb comment, and the convincing appraisal of that film, it seems you know what you’re talking about, a voice of experience much needed on BURN and I hope that somehow, DAH, our host, will convince you to do more writing for us…
Incidentally, your name seems to ring a bell….
:-))))))))))
If it’s about the $ and the technical aspects of film, I ask: Can we set up a fund for relaunching Polaroid?
Oh, and Marcin…congratulations.
We changed something great for something chip. Quite nornal stuff. Kodachrome was exspensive and beautiful, digital is avaiable. I am sure in whole Poland is less kodachrome pictures than in David,s archive only. But also one Polish teenager have more digital pictures from partys than many profiessional photographers. I meet last time one with 800 000 pictures archive! 4 years hundreds of partys.
I made during last two years over 100 000 pictures and have nothing to show. 100 000 piece of shit.
so what’s the different that kodachrome is death?
Who cares?
I will not work with kodachrome anyway. Not ten years ago not now.
I was angry when many my favorites photographers stoped working on films, but as David said that time “everything is changed”
so I have to agree with that.
No more Kodachrome?
No problem for me.
Jan, why congatulations?
When my husband Ed told me last night of the demise of Kodachrome, he reminded me of the Kodachrome slides he still has from his teen years back in the 1940s. They are as brilliantly colored today as when they were first taken and developed 65 years ago.
I know it will never be the same but just a reminder to digital photogs: Alien Skin Exposure software can give you a pretty good copy of Kodachrome (and other types of color and b&w film), but it only shows up well in print. Anton was the one who first put me onto it back in the days of DAH’s Road Trips blog. Thanks, Anton!
http://www.alienskin.com/exposure/
Patricia
Hey anyone going tomorrow to the photographers gallery in the evening?
Can anyone tell me what time things kick start there?
Cheers,
Armando
I loved Kodachrome 25, a wonderful film. But it got to the stage here in NZ that the film had to be sent to the US for processsing, before that it was to Australia. It took 13 weeks to get it back from the US so I changed to velvia.
It’s hard to imagine 13 weeks for processing in this digital age!!! I agree with Patricia; Alien Skin is great.
When I was shooting K25, I was mostly doing nature work, some exposures in the dark NZ forest would be out to 7 minutes and no colour shift at all.
But time marches on and pro 35mm tranny film in NZ costs at least $20 a roll ($29 where I live), processing $11. It’s nice to go away and know you haven’t had to spend $800 for 40 rolls of film and still have to find $440 for processing when you return!!
Cheers everyone
@@@Patricia. Exposure 2 is great, but you should try to check out silverfx pro
http://www.niksoftware.com/silverefexpro/en/entry.php
As a dedicated black and white conversion tool it really is fantastic. Very easy to get a ‘look’ thats authentic in print. Much easier to control grain and tone. And for me i can get the gritty blacks that i get on push films much easier with it. Worth having in your tool box.
John
I love Exposure 2. It’s great for B&W for the web. But I prefer to shoot B&W film in my M2 or M3 for physical prints. But then, I’m an antique. When film is gone, though, software will do fine.
I had already bought Alien Skin before Silver FX arrived on the scene. I preferred the Silver FX after trialing it but couldn’t justify it after already purchasing Alien Skin!
WHAT NOT TO LOVE!!!
SILVER FX…
Curly curls…
Gordon’s mom…
Katie MY LOVE…
I LOVE YOU ALL…
P.S Kodachrome 25…
I have no clue…
I AM EXPOSED 2…
I am on the air…
and I BURN,BURN,BURN …
WHAT NOT TO LOVE!!!
Just as I read ‘money is what makes the work possible’ and am thinking to myself that passion and the need to create and see and engage and understand are what makes the work possible (and the rest including the financials will be sorted out), I hear Winograd laugh in the background while he’s shooting on the street when a woman asks him “What’s happening”..then his reply..”I’m surviving, you know!” Exactly.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tl4f-QFCUek (“Nothing ventured, nothing gained..hopefully you are risking failing every time you make a frame..” Gary)
Another fun watch
erica ;))…
it’s is the failure to embrace and accept the connecting and connective tissue of failures that leads so many astray….:))…
any parent knows this, let alone an aware photograher :)))…
bb
DAH yes, Kodachrome was the most archival slide film but, ironically, not if it was projected.
Mike.
i thought this is not a techno forum….
I LOVE IT.
these questions such as why kodachrome and silverfx pro blah blah are some things that i would have wanted to know. maybe some other thread? so this doesnt get buried in dead rabbit dialogue?
but DAH told me BURN is not supposed to be a gear/software/techno forum but maybe David Alan Harvey can convince him otherwise since he was so eloquent, knowledgeable and pleasant with his input… right herve?
We could have an entire thread devoted to obsolete cameras and film! Not. :)
Wow, I can’t believe the rudeness and/or superficiality of the latest comments on Carls’ WHITE FAMILY EPF essay. What s shame…
patricia,
well said … on the other page.
brings us back to what joe said
(and to what ive always thought)
being a photographer comes a great responsibility
and as we approach and strive hard for excellence
vehemence is equally spewed
shall i say, “DUCK! Just shoot!”
jim,
ill take dead cameras and film over dead rabbits
and psychoanalytic attempts of jim powers anyday :)))))
what did/will you shoot today?
Herve,
I just went and looked that thread over. This appears to be a classic troll. All anonymous and saying pretty much the same thing. Anton or DAH should simply remove them/him.
What’s happening under the “White Family” essay is an example of why I say there should be no comments on this web site. The only solution, other than removing them, is to heavily moderate the comments. Regardless of who you get to moderate, it is time consuming and ultimately subjective, and that subjective moderation will itself eventually cause a war.
Burn aspires to be a slick, professional produced web site. Comments have no place here.
I thought the “White Family” essay was one of the strongest of the finalists. The images as individuals were only outdone by the set as a whole. Simply did not understand the venom for it.
Gracie;
I agree we don’t need too much gear talk here, but so many of us have used Kodachrome it’s nice to have a quick reminisce. Even though us stopping using it was part of its demise!! :-)
Take care
@Jim Powers
“What’s happening under the “White Family” essay is an example of why I say there should be no comments on this web site”
Are you saying that people from eastern Kentucky have no right to talk back to the photographer? No right to tell him (and us) that they’re offended by the images?
Seems to me that it’s good to hear their voices.
The photographer only presented a snippet of the story and one of his choice and perspective, some will see this as an unfair portrayal and respond accordingly whether in anger, silence, dismissal etc. Sound pretty fair to me
I agree with John M. I live in South-Central Kentucky, not close enough to be familiar with Whitesburg in particular, but I’ve heard enough sentiments like the ones left in the “Comments” section of the White Family essay that I was not all surprised to see what had been written.
I feel that many Eastern Kentuckians are a bit sensitive to how the area has been portrayed in the media and in films, often in the negative context of hell-raisin’ good ol’ boys, druggies, hillbillies, bootleggers, etc. Regular folks get a little bit tired of the stereotypes, especially when an equal positive counter-balance does not exist in the media.
Well, John, you’ve got some anonymous folks ranting over there. If they were using their real names, I wouldn’t have any problem with it. But, even at that, I don’t see this kind of stuff working on a slick photography magazine.
So much patriotism & pride in here..
See ya..:(
Panos…
Exactly!
And interestingly enough, given our new Kentucky friends… I just now, literally five minutes ago, finished the book “The Killer Angels.” There’s a harmony in that, I think.
i think its ashame dont get me wrong, but first of all my sister has gotten mixed up with that bunch. i know its wrong and i wouldnt take up for what drugs and abuse has went on, but the way the way carl has come in here and taken these pictures to make kentucky look bad it wrong. they never gave him permission to take these photos, also i think he has pissed alot of kentuckians off by making the rest of us look bad. so i hope theres something could be done with him…..
OK, OK, OK…. David, I think this more than enough.
Yep. This is heading for a massive spam attack on the forums.
What spam? All this is real. Sometimes real is just that!
Real? LOL. Now that’s funny.
dear someone in ky,
no one can make you say anything or feel anything.
as you should think you have your point of view, so should carl.
(ps. jim, you still did not answer my question)
What question is that, Gracie?
old post
jim,
ill take dead cameras and film over dead rabbits
and psychoanalytic attempts of jim powers anyday :)))))
what did/will you shoot today?
A bench in a park.
I must say that even though a photographer is free to choose his subject as s/he wishes (if s/he can), it is good to question oneself why the focus should be on the downtrodden so often.
The reactions from the folks in Kentucky (which are welcome, but also unwelcome if insulting the photographer as some vile person) are quite common to many in so many places and countries who find that only one side of the story is always told, usually the one that fits common stereotypes reinforcing prejudices and/or blanket opinions.
The “folks in Kentucky” are cowards, too afraid to post under their real names. They do not exist.
Anonymous or not, opinions like those posted by our friends from Kentucky are worth listening to, but threats, no. Threats of any kind will not be tolerated. By the way, anonymous posters should be made aware that the techies who run this website can pinpoint the location of any computer from which a comment originates. There is no such thing as an anonymous poster here.
Patricia
Mr. Powers, you may be a “named” poster but your most recent comment is unnecessarily provocative and unhelpful. Please do not make things worse.
Patricia
Sometimes it is easier for photographers to concentrate on the negative, I’ve done it myself. I’ve decided to do a complete U-turn and try to concentrate on the positive aspects of youth culture for my project. If I wanted to I could follow our police around the mainstreet from 1am to 5am and photograph the a heap of arrests, but that would also not be representative of the general youth scene.
I have to work hard for my pics because the dramatic context of at arrest that automatically gives a sense of drama isn’t present. I have been accused by a few people (not on Burn) that by not showing the “bad” I’m allowing my editorial content to colour the work. However my reply is that if I shot solely the violence, or the huge methamphetamine problem we have in NZ I would be doing exactly that to…
The interesting thing is that by following a different tack I’m starting to garner a reasonable amount of attention for the project, precisely because it “is” a different idea. I’ve only just walked in the door from doing an interview for our daily newspaper, the reason they wanted the story is because it’s a different take on a new subject.
It’s also nice to shoot a positive project, and hopefully the paper article will open a few more doors for other subjects for the project too.
Cheers everyone
Is there anybody out there who can just close the “white Family” thread until David decides if somehow things have gone too way out of hands? Anton, BobB?
I must say that I agree with Jim about comments here. The latest example of whats happening under the White Family is not good for Burn. I advicated a login system for making comments under phoos and essays and still think it is a good idea.
An easy login system doesn’t seem so bad — censoring directly people from where the story is hot, does. I don’t know if having comments is good for burn or not, but it is good for the stories being told. Hearing both sides of an issue, raising questions, that’s what the White Family style photos are supposed to do.
It would be a shame if the poster who claimed to be the white family was a troll, though. Login sounds better and better.
edit: the story is shot.
Do you really think the White family is sitting at a computer posting on Burn? Nonsense.
Ross
Amen and congratulations.
I’ve been constantly pleading here for photographers to try and get some balance in their choice of subjects. OK OK there is poverty, drugs, prostitution, despair, blah blah etc etc. Most of us do not live that way. There are so many un-told stories.
These are all worthy of exploration, but do not represent the mainstream. I’ve said it before and I’ll likely say it a bunch of times more. Why do photographers gravitate to the seedy, the pathetic, the exotic, the sensational, the “edgy”? Concern? Sensitivity? A wish to make the world a better place?
Dangerous ground here, but while all those reasons may be true, I think photographers need to ask themselves why they are doing what they are doing. Is it from true concern, or is it just that they think a particular situation is a good bet for a powerful set of photographs. Back in 1969, in photo school, some of my classmates used to go out and photograph the “bums and winos”. Not much seems to have changed.
I’m afraid too many photographers are the photographic equivelent of solutions looking for problems.
My suggestion? Photograph what you know. Seeking out the sensational, pathetic, exotic, edgy, etc etc is just so damn boring and lazy boys and girls.
Just my humble opinion.
Herve, Don’t be so quick to shut down this dialog. This is like a “letter to the editor”. I said recently that I was out of this forum, but no more. Stories like Carl’s are too important to stand silent and work like this can change things. I want to be a part of that voice.
Ya’ll don’t understand. This is a cultural thing that has crushed lives in the south. I am sure that the same problems are in other parts of the US, but it seems most chronic down here. The southeast US has been particularly vulnerable to meth. Who knows why. The same thing is going on in northwest Georgia, where I live. Every day there are meth arrests. I read about in the local paper– far too many. How does a community deal with that? Carl has the courage to look into it and force folks in eastern KY to take stock of this problem.
Just to be clear, Jim P’s responses will not be countered. This is too important a venue to be co-opted by pronouncements.
These folks(Letcher Co.) should express themselves. They should be offended They are not cowards, they are proud folks who are now faced with the truth. Carl gained their trust and showed what is happening. there. Outrage is what regular folks there should express. He did nothing to misrepresent them. They may be unhappy with the result but this, but this is how it all should flesh itself out. This is not a fishbowl. These are real people. Perhaps a neighbor.
Paul, I’m really astonished. You have no clue that these are legitimate posters yet you try to give them legitimacy. In the newspaper business, we refuse to publish anonymous “Letters to the Editor” for this very reason. If you are unwilling to attach your name to a letter, the letter is meaningless. It could be anybody, as could these posters.
Amazing.
Hiding in the shadows tossing stinkbombs is a cowards game.
Jim
The fact that there are suddenly a huge batch of anonamous posters almost certainly points to just one angry person.
Angry Person.
You have made your point. We get it.
Gordan, I understand that, but some folks here are in severe denial.
Gordon…
One of the things I found remarkable in some of the comments in the “Pursuit” essay was that some said it was something they’d never seen in Burn before. Cracked me up.
Actually, it may or not be real people posting, no one knows — except maybe Anton.
I thought I remembered a slew of trackbacks earlier, meaning the essay got a bunch of attention throughout the Web. Could account for the increased activity.
Regardless, if you are going to allow posts, you need a registration system that requires a verifiable email address and a moderator to pre-approve the posts. Otherwise, you are going to get more and more of this nonsense.
Gordon,
I agree. Im pretty bored with the cliches, to be honest. Thats why so many of the EPF finalists bored me. Mental institutes, poverty, the Soviet Union, etc, these are all pretty cliche topics chosen for the visual drama already inherently there. I mean who couldn’t take a dramatic shot of a drug using family? Its ll served up on the platter. The stuff I really liked here on Burn is the stuff that doesn’t have that advantage going for it, like Patricia’s self portraits for example.
Gordon,
Don’t discount the KY comments as trash. Folks take this personal. Remember, Carl entered their world and I have to assume, did not misrepresent his intentions. It just didn’t work out the way they wanted.
The greater good?
Paul, look at the trackbacks. They are also bogus. Looks like advertising spam.
Rafal
Patricias amazing and personal photos, and Audreys photos of her parents are my favoutite essays on Burn.
Click the names – they all go to Topix.
Gordon;
I’m still pursuing my Timor Leste project, but had some magazine hassles (which equals dollar hassles!) and had to put my next trip off for a while. But even there, I would like to show the strength, resilience and depth of character rather than avid desperation, because the people I met had more strength than I could ever dream of having.
Recently, I was third on the scene to a vehicle accident. A concrete truck had rolled off the road and the driver was trapped. The first two at the scene had everything pretty much under control (ambulance already called etc), but I stayed until the ambo arrived just in case something went wrong.
I suppose if I was a decent pj I would have grabbed my camera and taken a heap of photos of the very bloody driver ( the driver was actually ok, it looked far worse than it was) and the person waiting with them etc. But I didn’t, mainly because what good would have that photo have done anyway? Maybe won a prize at best, but no tangible benefit for anyone. If I had been working for a newspaper, then yes; I would have shot away, but I don’t. So what was the point? I still think it was the right decision, but I’m curious to what others would have done..
Cheers
Paul
I’m sure KYs comments are representative of folks from the area. I understand and can even agree with some of the sentiment.
Unfortunately, he is starting to come off as a hot headed southern red-neck and would be smart to quit now.
OK, in an attempt to give myself legitimacy to Mr. Powers, I’ve listed my real name. Not sure why using a handle on the internet makes you less of a real person, but I digress…
I really liked Carl’s essay, and it highlights a very valid concern in our area. I have very close relatives who have lost jobs due to addiction. In the last month, my small town of 12,000 had: one motel fire attributed to meth production, one motel evacuation due to fumes related to meth production, and meth production paraphernalia left behind in a motel room. In a neighboring town, an infant died when it ingested chemicals related to meth production. I’m sure this stuff is going down in small towns all over the South. This is a real problem that deserves having attention drawn to it, which I think, is what a lot of good PJ is about. I think that the recent posts are real; I don’t condone their tone or vulgarity, but obviously Carl’s essay touched a nerve with some – it made an impact. That’s a lot more than can be said for my photography.
That being said, no one likes bad press, or to have outsiders show their hometowns in a negative light. An essay on cross-border drug violence along the US-Mexico border might elicit a similar response from residents there.
Ross
You made the right decision.
Thanks, Justin. A real name makes all the difference.
I don’t shoot the victims of accidents anymore. I’ll shoot the accident itself, the Jaws team at work, etc. But I see no useful purpose in putting photos of bloody bodies on the front page.
Radomness? Winning the next lotto jackpot? carrying a backpack full of lenses hoping i can get “lucky” and get the “shot”??
no, not me.
i “stage” my vision, my “perception”…
actually i “narrow” it down to the “click”…
but, before i click away, i close my eyes, turn the “autofocus switch” off and then i “close” my eyes…
:)
but REMEMBER,
i’m “there”…i’m “staging” the world…its my,
completely “mine”
.. the “truth” i mean…
I feel it, i “see” it this way, i wanna see it this “way”.. thats how i interpret it this “way”…
Now , if i’m able to put on on a few pixels ( or film ) and stir emotions then, then i’m Abbas or DAH or HCB..its “hot”.. its “hugeee”…its “legends material”…
but…
if NOT… !!!??????
Anyway thats the little factor that differenciates the “brilliant” photog,
from the “average”, “typical newspaper photoDog”…or the typical “wedding” photog..
the latest Kentucky “drama”… could be anywhere…
its here in LA any given day..
I live in LA..
…should i get offended because
of all the LA crime?
Thanks to Carl and thanks to our friends in Eastern Kentucky, including the Whites themselves (if the post is really from them), we here at Burn are being given real-life not rhetorical topics to discuss, ones that affect us all. A few questions come to mind:
How do we determine what and who to shoot? Do we seriously consider how the point of view we take will impact our subjects, their families and communities? Do we/should we share our photos/essay with our subjects before publishing them in print or on the web? Do we/should we get signed model releases from our subjects? How clear are we in knowing our personal and professional reasons for choosing and working on each project that we undertake? Are we ready to hear feedback from people who have strong feelings about our work, especially those who feel we have misrepresented themselves or their community? How do we engage with them in a way that might bring positive change and mutual understanding? Is that even important to us?
Let’s use this opoortunity to dig deeper rather than blowing it off because people didn’t post their real names. It is just such moments as this that make this new way of sharing photography so exciting. Let’s use it…
Patricia
P.S. Thanks Rafal and Gordon for your positive comments about my self portrait project, “Falling Into Place.” Your words come at a time when I can use an extra bit of motivation. After receiving wonderful responses to my Blurb book in C’ville, I have returned home with the task of completely reworking the text. I’m feeling a bit intimidated because I much prefer taking photos over writing, but Eugene Richards and Carl Bowen (a professional photog who was in Gene’s workshop) have offered to work with me on it.
As DAH always says, the path to having a book of your photos published is a long steep climb. I’m hoping to crest my final hill this summer. But I would never be this far along without the amazing help of David. When that guy says he’s going to mentor you, believe me, he means it! He’s with you every step of the way.
Patricia
Patricia,:)
you, above all in here,
know the answer to all of your questions..:)
Honesty,HONESTY is the key,
in other words,
mirror yourself,
be there,
get involved,
put your ass in there
( the main objection i had at RAFAL’s essay – one of my favorite essays…although i “hate”:)
Rafal, actually did PUT himself in a very “sideways” kinda way…
So Patricia again,
You were HONEST just like Rafal or DAH on his latest book…
I’m not suggesting to only photograph “family”..
which is as hard as shooting strangers… laughing..
( although i have no family here, i have a big fat greek one somewhere in greece.. laughing..)
All im saying is CONNECT, dont steal… and the “WHITE FAMILY” or whatever,…
was not offended… Carl was accepted and welcomed…
This family wasnt doing anything that “wrong” either…
ohhh please………….
99% of us here in north America are one way or another addicted to “something”…
A typical American bathroom cabinet has enough painkillers and narcotics enough to put an elephant to sleep for hours…:)))))))))))
“letcher county resident” or TOPIX, listen,
im not gonna offend you, but , first of all, respect Jim’s ( one comment only ),
but come over here.. stop molesting the essay… so..
tell me,
whats bothering you… what “hit” the nail in your heart..
why you threaten the photog?
I mean, you know, you said it,
we heard you… now we are “even” right?
TOPIX VS BURN right?
ok, you win,
or???
what is the “point” you are trying to make and i obviously keep missing???
so,
come over to the “BUZZ” room and TELL US…
we are all ears…!!!!!!!
What more do you know that we, the IDIOTS dont??????????
Tell us coz im getting TIRED , big time ,brother…
:(
I think the first step in any photo project is to have the ethics (relatively) sorted in your head before you start. Sure circumstances may change, but you need to have the basics sorted.
As for involvement; isn’t that the best part?
“A typical American bathroom cabinet has enough painkillers and narcotics enough to put an elephant to sleep for hours…:)))))))))))”
….for hours…?????
laughing…
for DAYS , i meant…!
:)
Don’t be so quick to shut down this dialog.
———————–
Paul, insulting and threatening Carl is not a dialogue. David himself said he will not accept this on BURN, from anonymous sources (Patricia, they are anonymous, until they are identified individually). Freedom of speech can withstand a 24 or 48 hours interruption, IMO.
should i get offended because of all the LA crime?
———————–
Panos, there are a lot more news coming from LA, than East Kentucky. Npw, someone tells me LA, I think PANOS! But a year ago, I would have thought movie stars, or the Cramps, or F Zappa, and a zillion other things. And these people may have a point in being sick of the fact that the little news coming from their neck of the wood is always about hopeless white trash on welfare and drugs.
“… And these people may have a point in being sick of the fact that the little news coming from their neck of the wood is always about hopeless white trash on welfare and drugs…”
ohh please…
i live in LA, i DONT have BIG BREASTS, nor am i BLOND
( I would say yes to a big car though,.. gotta have something…:))))))
aaaanyway…
“these people” are who they are…
is someone trying to “save” the world?????
whats wrong with TOPIX??
Are you the next big “Jim”?..laughing, sorry, i meant “thing”? in Burn?
sweeeet… so , go ahead, tell us what to believe..!!!!!!!!!!
:)
Herve,
when i hear the word “san francisco”,
i think of you too…:)
Rafal i agree…
but also,
to me that troll sounds more like Carl’s personal “beef” kinda thing..
Let’s use this opoortunity to dig deeper rather than blowing it off
————————————-
Besides some legalities, it’s completely up to the individual, no rules, Patricia (on what and how to shoot, then revealing or not), and no morality or ethics, but your own personal ones in going about your work, and approching that of others (if we know enough of how it was done, I think sometimes we’d be surprised at the “means justifying the end” of a great reportage.
Slightly off the subject, but still within, I think, M Parr says he gets away with it by not looking his subjects in the eye, he is therefore stealing (like Gilden is almost mugging, or pick-pocketting), when who else (Richards?) said you are not worthy of being a photographer if you can’t look them in the eyes (or something to that effect), or something to that effect…
Frankly, I think even those of us with a limited experience of photography “a la street”, or “a la PJ”, can easily fit both shoes, as we learn our craft. To me stealing means taking something that does not belong to me. Pressing the shutter of a camera does not fit that definition.
Anyone around here?
I’ve had a night like no other.
Night one of the Santa Fe Rodeo…
I’ve been waiting all year to continue shooting here and instead I was dragged thru the dirt, told to hand over my memory card (which I did not) and threatened with JAIL for taking pictures…before they threw me out (I should say they threw the camera out…I was allowed back in without it)
WHY you ask??? I’m asking the same thing but from what I can tell there were animal rights activists protesting outside and they threatened the rodeo, saying they would send in photographers who work for them. The rodeo wasn’t taking any chances.
Truth be told, I AM an animal rights activist but one thing I do not do as a photographer is try to change people. I respect the rodeo world and when I attend a rodeo I do it without judgement. That’s more than I can say for their media director, the guy who threw me out!
I’m going to call him tomorrow and try again to get in. Would you? Or would you tell them to screw themselves?
Well, it’s out there. The new Humanfiles is done. Stop by if you like.
http://www.humanfiles.com/
Depends what you want to do, Cathy. Attempt to get some nice shots, or get “inside” (I don’t mean the arena). In other words, How hard do you really want to tackle that subject (not just for a few good pix “a la sauvette”)?
You’ve got to make this guy feel it is not just for you, for the sake of taking pictures. So, make sure it is not for you only, that there is a higher calling….Then all bullshit is fair game. I’ll shave my head and tell I am DAH if that can get me somewhere unsuspected, then promptly call david to apologize, when all is shot! :-)))))
IMO
panos,
you were doing good there for a bit until this…
This family wasnt doing anything that “wrong” either…
ohhh please………….
99% of us here in north America are one way or another addicted to “something”…
A typical American bathroom cabinet has enough painkillers and narcotics enough to put an elephant to sleep for hours…:))))))))))
i totally disagree with you here. just because addiction is real and so prominent here means that it is not wrong.
A little observation if I may: Jim Powers is defending BURN fort from angry KY residents. What a development.
It proves that Jim as a person needs an enemy. Thank you Angry Kentucky Resident.
Panos – let’s talk about those boobs later, malaka. Beer is overdue.
What is this ‘malaka’ stuff, Haik. No name calling on burn.
Jareeed – beer in little salvador’s famous pupuseria?
Gracie. don’t mean to get caught up in this point you make other than to say. Dead on. Don’t get in the way of a bucket of money and a corporation.
Pupusas, malaka? Yes. And beer. Working the next two days straight, but later this weekend, early next week would work.
Cathy, find the rodeo producer and offer to send him some photos for PR in exchange for access. A rodeo is like a rock concert, you don’t have a particular “right” to be there with a camera. But most rodeo producers like all the PR they can get. Is there a local newspaper you could offer a couple of photos to? Tell the producer you’re a freelancer (you are) and are going to offer photos to that paper.
Cathy,
I think the free photos can be a slippery slope when looking for access. But I would definitely try to meet in person and show them your work and what it is you are doing. I am sure that if you are very straightforward and show them you don’t have an agenda, other than to make great images and tell a story, you will be able to convince them.
Definitely offer to let them have access to images for a fee. Tell them you can offer a discount, but I would stray from the free photos idea.
Since her goal isn’t to shoot rodeo PR photos for a living, I don’t see a problem with giving away a few photos if it furthers her project. Different strokes.
I guess neither Anton nor David are reading the forums, this White Family thing needs handling.
I don’t know about you but I have been thinking about the “White family” all night. It brings home in a very real way the impact our photos can have on people’s lives. From reading the comments on the link posted by “letcher count resident” I see that the family has been publicly identified and the authorities are likely to be alerted to the situation that these children are living in. Carl’s photos will be their evidence.
Patricia
Jim, as usual, you’re wrong. Now go outside and play.
What we are witnessing was a long time coming. History is happening right before our eyes. This recent list of comments will be referenced over and over as evidence of what happens when you choose a subject of this nature and the subject actually has access to the gallery they find themselves In. At no time in the past has this been so possible and to such an extra ordinary relevant level. All I can say is Sabine and KY thank you.
Patricia. Truth and fairness will prevail. To think otherwise is an indictment on the entire state of Kentucky.
Check this out, Western Kentucky University’s Appalachian Cultural Project: http://www.acpworkshop.org/?p=628
From the About page on the site:
“The Appalachian Cultural Project is designed to promote the education of Western Kentucky University photojournalism students while respectfully documenting the people and the culture of the Appalachian region. It is the goal of the project creator and the participants to truthfully represent the people of the area and, through audio and multimedia production, to counter negative stereotypes that are unfairly attached to the region. The challenge of overcoming these stereotypes is large, but by making honest images and by treating people with respect, the project aims to reveal the realities of life in the region and celebrate Appalachian culture.”
I haven’t had a chance to review it myself (just found it), I’ll be going through it as the workday permits.
Joe, the recent comments will hopefully be deleted as the work of a troll. You are giving credibility to nonsense.
tamaleees… Popusaaas…
Percoceeet… Norcoooos….sandia…
Malakiaaaas..
Man, I love my street vendors in little Salvador ..
No need for an alarm clock in my hood..:()
Jareeeed… Haiiiik…
Sopas , Tortas and cheap beer tonight..
In El Taurino.. Corner of Hoover and 11th street..
Downtown LA.. Tonight..
Orale..!:))
It brings home in a very real way the impact our photos can have on people’s lives
————————————-
I do not think this is a topic that is new to a lot here. Or even on BURN. Jim brought it up a few times before, and somehow, it was all considered to be part of his obsession with always finding something wrong to say about anything BURN.
Carl, if i remember, is a young guy. I hope his relationship to the WHITE family is as he said it was, built on mutual confidence and permission to use photos. But just these photos prove nothing. it’s all freedom of speech, easy to argue it was all set up and the drug stuff, written or shot, was purely performing in front of a camera. You can’t prove crime.
It’s a way of life well known from the auhtorities and courts there. I doubt that the WHITE family is not already well documented by social workers and/or authorities.
To sum it up: Patricia, get some sleep!
:-)
Plus, it’s hard to believe Carl ruined their lives, as I think the troll/WHITES wrote yesterady. They did a pretty good job of it themselves… :-))))
And a few more words about Kodachrome. Today I saw new price for e-6 process in my town and new prices for positive films. For me color film photography is history now. I will not working on positive films. no more. Not too big lost for the world.
Velvia is toy for a rich people now.
Jim, as usual, and again, on the same day, you’re wrong.
If you were right the comments would be deleted.
Now please, pretty please, go outside and play.
Carl did not “ruin” anyone’s life. He merely shot what he saw. At least that is what I’m assuming. I somehow doubt if Carl set up a shot of a father snorting a line of meth in front of his son’s eyes.
To be honest, what disturbs me the most was my own response–or I should say, lack of response–to what was being shown in Carl’s essay. Somehow I had compartmentalized my brain enough to be looking at this essay simply through my photographer’s eyes. Hell, I used to be a social worker. Why wasn’t I thinking of the children here? What a wake-up call this is to me as a human being.
Patricia
PATRICIA…
i am just so so proud of you…..please forgive my lack of attention to you since c’ville….i have not had any time free to call or work with you since we last were together…back soonest…hugs et al…
cheers, david
Everyone… on a lighter note:
Last few days there’s been much talk about good ol’ soon to be departed Kodachrome. Some miss it, some could not care less. Most recognize it was inevitable but still a sad development. (Har-har) It is said that Steve McCurry is going to be shooting one of the last rolls and then donating the images to the George Eastman House Museum. Wonder if Burn can procure a brick of the stuff and then give them out to selected photographers to do something of that nature. It’d be an interesting experiment, I think. You get one 36 exposure roll and you have to make each and every shot count. What you shoot is of your choosing… or would it be better to be given an “assignment”?
Anybody be up for a thing like that?
Thanks for your comments everyone.
After a sleepless night I am going to pick myself up, dust everything off and try again. I’m not giving up.
By this evening I will have a letter and press credential. Whether or not that will help remains to be seen.
I know the media director (who threw me out last night.) Have photographed his daughters, talked with his wife, etc…I have also offered photos previously and again last night… to no avail. I’ve never had a problem at this venue before so the way I was treated was beyond shocking.
I’m going to try to smooth things out in time to shoot tonight. Hopefully!
I somehow doubt if Carl set up a shot of a father snorting a line of meth in front of his son’s eyes.
—————————–
One way or another, a lawyer can, IMO, easily have such a photo dismissed in court. That was my only point.
I am glad you went back a bit on your comments yesterday, Patricia (I guess we are all sometimes taken aback by what a friend can write): snorting meth in front of one’s kid is way far from “living life in the best way they know how”.
But on this subject, some words heard here and there, seem to indicate that people may find a lot of PJ on “hard” subjects more exploitive than not.
I am not sure how they reconcile it with getting infos (on war, addiction, abuses, etc…). And I am not sure how far I disagree with them, when it’s not done by a photographer who dedicates his life to it (ex: Nachtwey).
all –
comments under Carl’s essay have been reviewed, some trackback spam has been deleted, and the actual spam comments deleted. the remaining comments are genuine.
anton
Panos, haik —
I’m stuck in topanga overnight, we’ll have to se something up for next week. I always miss the fun stuff.
Genuine? Genuine what? You are making a big mistake that’s going to haunt you. Your blog, though. Good luck.
BTW,since we are not too shy on BURN to let our hearts cry out, I am surprised that no one in our female BURN community has made mention of the courageous Iranian women who have stood up without hiding, against arbitrarian powers.
I think they are definitely worth losing some sleep over. More, IMO. To think we had 9 mullahs here in 2001, who decided an election, and we just blurbed and stayed home…..
Jim. Take a deep breath and come to grips with the reason you’ll never have a blog. You’re simply too short-sighted. Lots of people are atually. Lots of people can’t swim either. Unlike them it doesn’t prevent you from doing an big fat cannonball into water that is simply over your head.
I’ve got nothing to add-I just wanted to be 2900. continue with what you were doing
Joe, the photographer put his name, his photos and his reputation on the line publishing here. David allowed individuals hiding behind anonymous names to attack the photographer when it was in his power to remove those posts. That is unethical. And inexcusable.
The photographer has no way to defend himself against the accusations of anonymous posters. He has no way to determine the legitimacy of their comments or their credibility in making them.
Michael,
great idea! Sure I would be up for this! I haven’t touched a Kodachrome for, uh – a long, long time (15 years or more). Sounds like something nostalgic. I like nostalgia. Too bad – I sold my Nikon F3 long time ago, with that camera I shot most of my Kodachromes. But I am always prepared for the inevitable: the most beautiful camera is still with me, a Nikon FA. I am sure it still clicks.
Anyway, it would be great to shoot one last roll of Kodachrome 64. And yes, an assignment would be nice. Think, think. If there is a bunch of photographers interested, we can all shoot on a certain day and then present the films uncut in one big exhibition in the Kodachrome hometown. Let’s create one big lighttable. The idea isn’t new, but hey, why not? Let’s pay tribute.
Kodachromes were always an expensive pleasure – for a 3 month trip I could only afford 50 rolls. Thinking carefully about each image sounds familiar. Perhaps Kodak can sponsor the last rolls. I mean, they will get something back in return.
I’m sure that somewhere there is still a big pile of the orange and yellow cans sitting around waiting to see some light.
Reimar
Jim,
The photographers who submit here know that there is an open forum right underneath. As far as defending himself, he doesn’t have to. As long as he didn’t make anything up, he’s well within any rights anyone can imagine.
Reimar,
Great! And you can borrow my F3 if you like! (I’d probably use F100.)
Will think more on it… and would love to hear more input from others. Yes, there’s nothing all that “new” about the idea, but just a good exercise, a little publicity and maybe a small tribute from Burn and Burnians.
-M
Jared, there is an ethical issue. And allowing this kind of stuff is not in the best interests of Burn’s future. I can’t believe David would allow this here.
“Come to Burn, make up a name, libel anyone you like, we defend your right to do so.” Doesn’t sound good to me.
Jim,
Reader’s comments are just that. Burn has no responsibility, the poster does, if there is indeed libel. Then again, I’m no lawyer, what do I know?
You’ve said your peace Jim. I’m sure it’s been noted.
IMO this has been one of the most significant series of comments ever posted on ANY of the essays published on Burn, or on Road Trips for that matter. I have heard us say in the past that we wished the wider world of non-photographers would find Burn and share their views with us. Well, they did. And what happens? Some among us react by saying those comments should be deleted because they didn’t play by “our rules.” Actually, if you visit most forums on the web you will rarely find people posting under their real names. It is common practice to use a made-up name instead. These are not trolls; they are people, people who feel strongly about the work published here on Burn. People who have every right to speak and be heard.
Thank you, Anton, for respecting these folks’ right to post here on Burn and to say what they needed/wanted to say. It may not be what we wanted to hear but I, for one, am grateful I heard their voices. They sure opened my eyes and heart to things I was not seeing or feeling before, and should have been. I say thank you to the people of Eastern Kentucky for not sitting back in silence but for coming forward to tell us what you think. We need to know how our photographs impact those outside our circle of photographers. I know this discussion will help me make decisions in the future as to who I photograph for my essays, why I am choosing them as subjects, and what impact my photos might have on their lives.
Patricia
P.S. David, not to worry. I know you’ve been on a fast track. We’ll connect when your life settles down a bit. I bet you and the Burnians are together right this minute in London! Sending hugs to all…
Jared, in the newspaper business, if we publish something anonymously that turns out to not be true, we are legally liable. DAH is the publisher of Burn magazine. He has the same legal liability, and I’m guessing he probably doesn’t want to go there. When the anonymous poster disappears, it’s David holding the bag.
Patricia, you’ll note that these forums with anonymous posters are moderated. The bad stuff either never reaches the forum or is quickly deleted.
When did this become a newspaper, Jim? I used to caution you on your language here on burn, precisely because you were responsible. The internet isn’t the print biz, some things are the same, some things not so much. Yu know how difficult it is to prove libel, to prove it against David would be nearly impossible. This is an open internet chat room, by hitting submit you are SELF-publishing, something that couldn’t be done at a newspaper. Hence, the difference.
jared, you are right, you shouldn’t play lawyer. You are incorrect.
JIM POWERS,
I now understand why you are being banned from other forums. This is precisely what you do when people get tired of you. Honestly, you are pushing it to the edge now. Your are too vocal. You are to loud. Your presence is overwhelming and your expressions are tiring for repetitiveness. You are the other side, a conservative voice, whatever it is called and it is welcomed in democracy. But when you, on your own bring in the proposal of moderation and the topic of ethics is fundamentally unethical. You have trashed more than anyone else and you have been saying the same thing over and over. If anyone, you should be moderated out. But you are not. Please have the decency of shutting up. This place is nice – let it be nice without your witty comments and smart conservatism. Please be moderate.
Anyone can sue anyone. Then you have to defend yourself.
Woah, Haik. What other forums am I being banned from? I post in a number of forums, some for any years.
any=many
Jim=loser
Got up this morning and jumped on Burn to see what’s been happenning and personal insults are flying around once more. Oh well, back to work for me I think….
Sometimes this is like kindergarden!
“Sometimes this is like kindergarden!” True; all we need now is a “naughty mat” in the corner!! :-))
It’s funny; but I was just thinking today how different the independent music scene is to photography. I’ve spent the last five months mostly shooting the indie music kids (mostly the punk, metal bands) and it blows me away how inclusive, supportive and open they are to others.
They continually support each other, stay to watch and support other bands on the bill, loan gear to others when it breaks before and during performances. The higher profile visiting bands loan gear to the up and comers, give advice and arrive early to support the younger acts. A really supportive atmosphere.
Diversity is encouraged and there aren’t any personal attacks, even though they might not get the other person’s point of view (towards music).
Maybe photographers would be different talking over a few quiet ones, or in the field maybe. I don’t really know because I mostly shoot by myself and don’t really get the chance to interact with too many other photographers.
What am I shooting today? Absolutely zilch, nada; stuck behind the keyboard writing I’m afraid.
Cheers
Patricia!
I have no idea what is with you. I know you enough to know you do not mean to be disingenuous. Yet, 2 or 3 comments from you are so off what has been debated upon, I wish to make a few remarks:
You write:
Some among us react by saying those comments should be deleted because they didn’t play by “our rules.”
—————————-
Where did anyone ever ask the posts to be deleted (if anyone did, that was Jim maybe, but that’s one)? where did anyone say they did not play by our rules? You are quite aware that most of us are iconoclastic enough not to care about rule-breaking. It is also normal on forums, that in the absence of the owner and until he can weigh in on the matter, a moderator can close a thread where insults and flames are staring to be thrown, just to avoid escalation. That is not deleting.
you also write:
It may not be what we wanted to hear
———————-
What is it that we do not want to hear? That Carl is being insulted as a photographer? yes, of course, we’d prefer not to hear that.
Yet, many of us actually agree with them and our comments back then, when the essay was posted, reflect pretty much that opinion.
Pat, it would be so great if coming back from Cville, you’d convey to us what going thru david’s WS was like. Not in detail, but about the journey. Linda O. tells me it was a life-changing experience. Surely, if that is it, it’s worth a few paragraphs from you to us. Now, that would be BURN at its best.
Just heard on my local US NPR station on the internet here 1 AM in Bucharest that Michael Jackson has been hospitalized after being found not breathing. . . too much plastic surgery?
1.37 AM (6.37 PM EST) update Michael Jackson is reported to have died
Hey! Don’t be hatin’ on the five year olds! ;^}
BREAKING NEWS FROM UCLA MEDICAL CENTER..
the King of pop MICHAEL JACKSON JUST DIED..
cardiac arrest…
“jared, you are right, you shouldn’t play lawyer. You are incorrect.”
Don’t just say it. Prove it, Jim.
I have never heard of an internet chat libel suit that came to fruition in this country.
Unfortunately, it will be “breaking news” for the next five days, too. Ugh.
Jared, it doesn’t have to come to fruition. I’m aware of the court decisions on this issue, but it doesn’t stop lawsuits. I suppose that David may have deep enough pockets to defend himself in court, but that’s what it would take.
I think the photographer being told he was going to burn in hell for his fabrication might also discourage others from wanting their essays on burn, what do you think?
Simply put — as a photographer I think the pros of being on burn exceedingly outweigh the cons. If I had shot this with confidence in my relationship to the Whites, this wouldn’t faze me one little bit.
DAH doesn’t (to my understanding) have money like that, which is why these cases usually get brought up against the ISP or Hosting Service, they’re the ones with deep pockets.
Jim. You REALLY need to get laid.
Seriously.
John
John, glad you find this humorous. I don’t. What’s happened with the White Family essay is a serious issue. And I’m very disappointed with David’s response to this. It’s an ethics and fairness issue.
James Stanfield has a photo book out called “Eye of the Beholder.” Maybe Anton should choose another name if this is going to be a book.
Jim
There was a thounsands of photo books and thousands of titles. I do not see problem if Anton’s will have the same title as Stanfield have.
jim = find fault freddy
Good time last night hanging with some burners and ever so briefly with DAH at the Magnum shindig here in London. Feeling rather knackered this morning.
About to embarrass myself now but I absolutely don’t care. In a moment of fedupness after completing my into essay for my new book I decided to tear it up. Though it was good prose it was just like everything else ever written in a street photography book. So I wrote some hokey, cheesy rhyming verse instead. I’m not going to listen to it again in case I take it down. Rather I’d like some opinions on it.
If it’s really stupid, please tell me. I composed it the night before last in the wee hours and added a couple of verses yesterday afternoon before heading to Magnum party.
Simply click my link above to hear it. I only wish it was someone else’s voice.
I’m more than ready to feel stupid about it.
Cheers,
Paul Treacy
photo@paultreacy.com
jim –
“the eye of the beholder” is the title of the first image, and of this particular post on burn. If I’d be lucky enough to realize a book out of my work, that book would bear a different title
thanks for pointing that out though, it’s good to know.
Anton, delicious colour palette you have going on in those pictures.
hey anton and paul..
paul – great conversation.. cheers.
antonTG – hope all worked out with the train.. good to meet up.. whiskey again soon :o)
d
oh by the way…. there is no one post rule for that post… i trust, i hope things will stay on-topic over there, so please be my guest
anton
Hey Anton, I agree with Paul about your color palette. Can you speak to this a bit?
Thanks! Like I told you last week…. Really Really Nicely Done.
My stupid poem link,
http://paultreacy.com/OnStreetPhotography.mp3 hoping it works.
hey pete –
what do you want to know about the color palette?
a
JIM…ANTON…
i do not know about the issue…Anton, what is up?? i told everyone i was “off” this week…please give me a hand here…thanks
ALL…
titles cannot be copyrighted…i could do a book called “Gone With the Wind” and no problem legally at least
Anton,
Just how you are shooting it? Film, Digital? Are you doing any post processing or filtering?
pete –
in the beginning, when surveying this project, i made a mood board of different images from magazines, movies, sites, books… that, for me, represented the visual color palette and the expressions of the mood i experienced during the times we met (so before the actual photographing began)
i am still learning a lot about visual language, and also looking to find my voice there as a photographer… so i need this kind of mood board to be able to mentally fall back upon while i am actually shooting, to keep me from becoming too “loose”… which is my biggest problem and strength at the same time
(but don’t think too much of this mood board either, its just a moleskine full of newspaper and magazine scraps and drawings and key words and scribbles and such)
gradually, of course my mood board gets more and more refined and i can even start adding actual images i am making. and that is why they are all linked together in color i guess.
Every project i do has it’s own little mood board… it’s my way of preparing and staying visually in track
i shoot digitally, and i post process.
JOHN…JOE…PAUL…LASSAL….BEN….DAVID B
so much fun hanging with you last night…two aspirins for breakfast is not my idea of a well balanced diet, but i really enjoy it when our virtual relationship becomes real…do not want to mix tequila with Guinness ever again however..
by the way, i am like a school kid right now sitting in the back of a Magnum meeting….i feel like i am sneaking notes to my buddies on the other side of the classroom…ok, shhhhh…i have to look like i am paying attention
cheers, david
Anton, a mood board? That’s brilliant. Got to put that in my box of tricks. Thank you.
David Alan Harvey, thanks once again.
You know, I’m still wondering why I put this under Richard’s essay. No reason comes to mind, other than I am easily confused.
In other news, which seems an odd way to start since I haven’t given you any news to start with, there is, as you might have heard, a surfeit of homes on the market. The bloom has gone off the boom, as it were, as thousands of people who invested their life savings in residential real estate in the hope of making a killing have found, to their absolute financial shock and chagrin, that while there’s lots of residential real estate to go around, the one thing that’s in fairly short supply these days are actual residents.
The problem extends far beyond the city limits of our happy little burg, even beyond the shores of this our Great Republic, all the way to the halls of power of Munchkinland, where the long decades of debate about what do to with the house of the good witch Dorothy are finally coming to a conclusion. The debate has lasted for so long for any number of reasons, the most important being that the great and powerful Wizard of Oz, to whom the Munchkins usually referred such weighty macroeconomic decisions, has busted a move, hit the highway, taken a powder, flown the coop, and has otherwise made himself unavailable for immediate consultation. Without the Wizard to guide them, the Munchkins did what the Munchkins do best in times of political turmoil: bicker endlessly after sucking on the helium hose down at the Lullaby League national headquarters. As you might imagine, not much gets down in Munchkinland when the body politic goes after each other with squeaky voices. A Munchkin high on helium is not one of nature’s prettier sights, not by a long shot.
After a few decades of this, the mayor of Munchkinland, a sensible sort of chap named Herbert Hempflannel, figured that things couldn’t keep going on this way, and so he decided to ask Glinda, the Good Witch of the North, for her opinion of the matter. The trouble was no one in Munchkinland had seen much of Glinda since Dorothy left Oz; in fact, a good many people wondered whatever became of Glinda. The mayor and the chief of police went looking for her, no easy task as witches are not easy to locate unless she finds out you’re dating her best friend behind her back. Eventually, they found Glinda living in a rundown trailer park out along the yellow brick road about twenty miles outside the Emerald City, near where the yellow brick road intersects with Interstate 10, telling fortunes for ten dollars a pop and downing a quart of vodka a day, still bitter about how Louis B. Mayer shafted her all those years ago.
MGM, it seems, was going to make two movies about Oz, one about Dorothy and the other about Glinda, or so she told the mayor, and she was going to star in the movie as well, not at all like the first flick, where they had to bring in some kid named Judy to play Dorothy because Dorothy, who, just between you and me, Mister Mayor, was not the smartest kid who ever lived—dropping that house on the Wicked Witch of the East was just her dumb luck, which, to be fair, the kid always had a lot of—and she couldn’t act her way out of a soaking wet brown paper bag. They tried to make her a star, you know, but the kid just didn’t have the chops, she froze like a deer in the headlights during her screen test; the only thing they could get her to say was she wanted to go home. Maybe she was ahead of her times, who knows? She could have played E.T. with that go home shtick. She couldn’t sing, either; that’s why they had to bring the Judy kid in.
Mayor Hempflannel tried to bring the subject around to the question of what to do about the house, but it was half past ten in the morning and Glinda was already half in the bag, so he had to keep listening to this boozy rant, which he found embarrassing at first and then a little disquieting, as Glinda apparently began to think he was Louis B. Mayer. This was an easy mistake to make, for the mogul and the Munchkin looked a good deal alike, although the Munchkin was considerably shorter than the man, as Munchkins tend to be. MGM never made the second movie—something about the special effects costing a fortune—and then the war came, which threw everyone in Hollywood for a production loop. Movies about good witches were out and heroics and patriotism were in, and so she had to spend the war years making an occasional USO tour doing card tricks for the boys and laying by a poolside in Beverley Hills knocking back whiskey sours and Manhattans with Bill Faulkner and Bob Benchley. The story about the special effects costing a fortune was a damn lie, Glinda said—she would have done them for nothing just to get the film made and to hell with the unions—and to prove her point she turned the chief of police into a three-legged frog and fed him to Wilbur, her pet piranha. After that Glinda started crying and cracked open a bottle of beer with her teeth, and then began singing ‘Over the Rainbow’ in a voice you couldn’t call off-key, as that term suggests some vague proximity to a key, and that wasn’t really true in this case. The mayor chose this point to beat a hasty retreat from the Good Witch of the North and followed the yellow brick road back to Munchkinland, a sadder and no wiser public servant, wondering the whole long way how he was going to explain the chief of police’s sudden disappearance to his wife and family.
So, the debate about what to do with the house raged on. For a while, the Munchkinland Housing Authority planned to turn Dorothy’s house into a low-income housing project, but the local homeowners did not want any socioeconomically deprived riff-raff in the neighborhood depressing their property values, so that idea didn’t really go anywhere. Rehabilitating the house would have cost a fortune as well, as no one ever bothered to fix the damage the police and the army caused forcing the Dorotheans out of the place.
The local authorities dislike talking about this episode—few governments enjoy talking about their mistakes and many Munchkins find the whole matter a bit distasteful, to put it mildly. The Dorothites, or Dorotheans, as they preferred to call themselves, were, in essence, a cult for very short people who, one fine day, marched into the broken down old house and told the authorities that they were not leaving; they needed the house for their worship services. The major tenet of their belief was that the good witch Dorothy (N.B.: Munchkins, even non-Dorotheans, did not then and do not now believe Dorothy’s protestations that she was not a witch; nobody just dumps a house on top of one wicked witch and melts another one like Cheez-Wiz over an open flame without some powerful mojo of her own) would return someday for the good Munchkins who had faith in Her and bring them back with Her to the mystical land of Kansas, where there would be a hundred slightly over the hill virgins named Tricksy Trixie LaBelle for all the believers, as well as hair for the bald, booze for the bibulous, and free checking on all accounts over a hundred dollars. In addition to all of this, once in Kansas, Dorothy would raise all true believing Munchkins to the staggering and hitherto unimaginable height of five foot five and seven-sixteenths of an inch without the use of platform shoes. The believers could have all of this and more if only they held true to the Faith, especially the parts where they dressed up as Dorothy and sang all the hymns on the Live from the London Palladium album until they fell unconscious to the floor in a state of religious ecstasy.
Clearly, no one wanted to persecute a religious minority for their beliefs; Munchkins are a fairly broad-minded lot, all told; but there are only so many renditions of ‘When the saints go marching in’ anyone can listen to on any given night before it starts getting on your nerves. The complaints from the neighbors, which the authorities had ignored up to that point because they like collecting their boodle without having to do too much for it, and the actions of the Dorotheans themselves finally forced a confrontation with the government. A theological dispute between those who held that Dorothy was one in substance with Toto and those who held that Toto was a lesser, dependent entity turned violent, with rioters in the street smashing windows and bludgeoning each other into unconsciousness with oversized lollipops. The rioting lasted for the better part of a week and the government finally had to call in the army to quell the disturbance and clear the cultists out of Dorothy’s house. The cult still survives in the more rural areas of Munchkinland, where the landscape is dotted with shrines to the good witch where the locals can come to pray and sacrifice their old shoes and Fats Waller records in hopes of gaining Dorothy’s favor and a good harvest.
At this point, the government despaired, as governments are wont to do when confronted with a problem that raising taxes cannot solve. Just when things seemed darkest, however, Mayor Hempflannel’s son-in-law, Mortimer Twiddlefist, found a solution acceptable to almost everyone. Consequently, next week the government of Munchkinland will cease operation under its current name and will reconstitute itself as the tribal government of the Munchkin Reservation. The lawyers and the diplomats are still working out the details of the jurisdictional transfer of sovereignty from the Emerald City to the Bureau of Indian Affairs, and in the meantime scriveners from one end of Munchkinland to the other, an admittedly short distance for most non-Munchkins, are busy writing gaming licenses as fast their small fingers and their quill pens can stand the strain. Plans for the Good Witch Dorothy Historic Site and Casino are already in the works and last week Mayor Hempflannel reported at a meeting of the Munchkin Board of Aldermen that at least three other companies expressed an interest in the possibilities of Munchkin gaming. Things in Munchkinland, for the first time in many a year, are finally looking up.
Not everyone is thrilled with these changes, however. Many older Munchkins point out that Munchkins are neither Indians nor Americans, but citizens of Oz, and the Dorotheans regard the United States as a sinkhole of vice, depravity, and sin; after all, no matter what the American government may tell you, the true believer cannot reach the perfect spiritual state of Kansas by catching the 9:27 a.m. flight from Chicago to Topeka. The idea is too metaphysically absurd to even bother thinking about.
Akaky wants my mind blow up…
DAH, I think that one of the decisions taken at those meetings in London was a very good one.
Cristina Garcia Rodero,first Spanish photographer to become member of Magnum.
Congrats to Cristina! (and to Magnum)
http://www.magnumphotos.com/Archive/C.aspx?VP=XSpecific_MAG.PhotographerDetail_VPage&l1=0&pid=2K7O3R1V204V&nm=Cristina%20Garcia%20Rodero
Cheers,
Nacho
Blowed up brains is a good thing, Marcin, especially if they blowed up real good.
The finalist for the 2009 Inge Morath Award is Jenn Ackerman (USA) for her project “Trapped: Mental Illness in America’s Prisons.”
Paris Match gets conned:
http://www.bjp-online.com/public/showPage.html?page=864044
Rescue Med 1: we have an adult male in cardiac arrest. . . Rescue 4 responding. . . we are enroute, 4 minutes ETA. . .
where is civilian?
a tribute..
whats not to love?
life in the smog.
big cars and bigger egos..
hair adjusting teens on the tube..
big shoulders too wide to avoid in oxford circus..
my favorite place in london is my mates flat.
from village life in norway
to smaller village life in croatia
to THE smog..
to getting walked into 3 times a day..
to random nutters on the night bus..
to late night whiskey with new friends and the oldest friends chinking glasses
to the bbc-i interwebsiteness
to smog n top gear
alcohol
avoiding bickering burnians like bubonic plague
::WHATS NOT TO LOVE::
i was going to report on the magnum party – but what to report?
there was a great conversation or two..
some smiles..
some buddha eyes..
at it’s best it was group of like minded people standing in the street have a chat..
the bar was so busy only one or two trips were viable..
no one fell over..
i did not hear a single broken glass..
whats not to love though?
who knows?
not me.
civilian..
i miss our corner of south eastern europe and cannot wait to get back tomorrow..
you know..
i LOVE the smog in small doses..
and i love the village life in bigger ones.
have you left greece for new found land?
davin – are you alluding to the death of pap.. sorry POP music?
ah well.
yes.
Sobol is an associate. unlimited gallery sales of sabine await!
DAVIDB and BURNIANS,
I am reporting from far,far away lands …
I had ouzo,beer, tequila,margarites…mixed with JET LAG…
WHAT NOT TO LOVE !!!
P.S ANTON you are so Magnum…
DAVIDB kiss Beate, Tor Capa and YOU …:)
KATIE …love forever …
Davidb please keep reporting from Balkans…
and did the big boy DAH danced his way out from the London meeting?
BURNIANS,
LOVE, PEACE and PHOTOGRAPHIA…
keep BURNing…keep rolling…
We are moving to a new era. CAN YOU BURN it?
P.S I LOVE YOU ALL…
I will be BACK with Cut and Paste…
I am a Civilian after all…hmmmmm.
CAN WE BURN IT ???
BURNIANS,
why did you decide to become PHOTOGRAPHERS ?
P.S I am not one BUT I always wanted to know ? Hmmm?
WHY ?
Seemed like more fun than working in a refinery like my dad did. :)
CIVI
for me,
it is not a choice,
but rather how I see the world….
in frames…
at times I wish I could let it all go,
but it is something
deep within…..
Don’t know why,
but I NEED to photograph,
tell stories….
without it,
I am completely
out of balance…..
Its something I feel,
see,
and
how I experience the world…..
why??
‘A bird does not sing because it has an answer,
it sings because it has a song……’
xox
**
Civil,
I got tired of being an electrician. And before that a waiter. And before that a grounds keeper. And before that a office supply guy. And before that a manager of a sporting goods store. And before that… well, there’s a lot more but I suspect it’ll get boring. ;^}
By the way, I’ve never not loved being a photographer. I dream photography. No joke. I see composition when I’m just talking to someone. I’ll lean (ever so slightly) this way or that to see if I can recompose the “scene.” It’s become a sickness, really. An addiction. But hey who doesn’t love a good addiction!? ;^}
Cheers.
…….not a photographer just make stuff’ncrap
ACMA,
I always liked to take pictures. If you you remember me, You guys will decide in 20 years if I am/was a photographer, AFAIC, I just take pictures, though I like the french expression, which stands right in between taking pictures and being a photographer: Je fais de la photographie. C’ est moi! :-)
Cristina Garcia Rodero does seem to be an exception these days. A photographer who really seizes something in her pictures AS IT HAPPENS, and by virtue of her enormous talent and compassion, transfigures it.
civilian..
no juice?
well.. the door is unlocked so let yourself in.
boy – the ‘why’ question might be a conversation to have face to face.. i’d love that with a like mind.
i know why i started photographing and printing and think i can recognize other people who came into it the same way.. rather young.
iT wAs a difFICult tiMe aNd i waS sTilL draWiNg wIth CraYons whEn i MaNaged To eScape.
the rest was as organic as carrots or potatoes..
or any beautiful fruit, (or maybe i AM vegetable?), which grew from a pile of horse shit.
yes.
mememe.
david@bophoto.co.uk :o)
Civilian,
Photographer? Oh, it’s so serious word. It’s so serious question.
If you want become photographer?
PUSH THE BUTTON!
Civi and all
What is a photographer ?
What a beautiful answers BURNIANS !!!
BUT …”Beauty is in the eye of the beholder”
P.S Origin
This saying first appeared in the 3rd century BC in Greek.
WHAT NOT TO LOVE and I LOVE you ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL…
AKAKY: Why did we take up photography?
AKAKY IRL: Did we take up photography? I thought you were just taking pictures.
AKAKY: That’s photography, dude.
AKAKY IRL: It is? I’ve seen your pictures, guy, and if that’s photography then the word covers a multitude of sins these days.
AKAKY: And how is this germane to the question?
AKAKY IRL: I’m sorry, what was the question again?
AKAKY: Why did we take up photography?
AKAKY IRL: I thought you took it up to waste money unnecessarily, or at least I always thought that was the reason. Whatever your pictures lack in aesthetic value they make up for in sheer boondoggle. You’re going to go far in the civil service, guy, if you keep this up.
AKAKY: Thanks, dude. Supportive as always.
AKAKY IRL: Any time. That’s what I’m here for.
Came into photography through keeping a daily blog for six years. Used a digital point-and-shoot to illustrate my daily wanderings and eventually the images won over the words. On July 5, 2006 I bought my first digital SLR, a Canon Rebel, and I’ve never looked back…
Patricia
Referencing the current essay, if the photographer wants to really help this group of orphan children, she should adopt them, not take pretty pictures of them at play. I’m afraid “Concerned Photography” isn’t very effective in the 21st century.
undoubtedly what photographers are concerned about these days is their career….
Yep
You know, we’re just awash in photography, documenting every misery on every square inch of the planet, but what damn good does it do? We’re overwhelmed with it and numbed by it, and growing weary of it. Don’t know the answer. But there needs to be a serious dialogue about where we go next as photographers (and I’m not talking art).
sure, career and ambition and self-esteem matter (not just in photography, in most about any pursuit). And I would not exclude myself from such motivations.
More importantly, however, as far as I’m concerned, if you look at the world as a photographer (even if you happen to have no camera in your hands), you never, EVER, run the risk of being bored, until your dying day. The whole world becomes like a candy-store to a 4-year old. Now, THAT is really something. (sure, sort of an addiction as Michael Kircher was saying above, but as far as addictions go, one of the best!).
Absolutely. But why do so many photographers choose to photograph misery? Because misery sells?
Or because it is available and abundant?
btw would like to share that I just found out I won first place in the political photojournalism category of this year’s PX3 awards for my story on election night in Harlem.
And congratulations to Anna for her greater distinction in the same competition!
Ok, I get the argument about westerners covering topics in far, far way lands that seem like they cannot be changed. Really, I do.
I just wonder, what projects are acceptable to the proponents of that argument. I would love for a list of acceptable subjects be put out by the most vehement among them, or, if they don’t want to give away the secret to necessary and important photojournalism — I wish they’d just go out and shoot them themselves. I’d very much like to see these worthwhile projects, hopefully they are being submitted to burn as we speak.
I would like to see more photographers working in their own back yards, shooting positive stories. I realize they probably couldn’t sell them, so they must shoot misery in far away countries. Just tired of it.
where we go next as photographers?
———————————-
You are a photographer?
:-)))))))))))))))))
Well, that’s what they pay me to do. :)
The heat index is going to be 108 degrees F. here today, and I’m going to be out in it for a few hours shooting today. Sounds like fun to me. ;)
I wonder (out loud) how many teenagers and young adults have been bombarded by the imagery of Nachtwey and company? Are they really bored of it? Do they know the stories that have been told over and over again? Maybe that’s the reason to keep shooting the same stories. For someone, the AIDS children will be their first photographic experience with sub-Saharan Africa. It might even get someone interested in the problem. maybe even enough to search the old photographic archives and see it’s been going on for such a long time. Maybe they might then decide to do something about that.
Maybe I’m a bit of an idealist, but let me grab a coffee — I’m sure I’ll sink back into my normal cynicism promptly.
I’m not sure of the value of documenting over and over situations for which there is no hope. If you’ve got 20 million orphan children who are going to start having children of their own as soon as they are biologically able, only to orphan them because AIDS is so widespread in the country, where is the hope in that?
What difference are photos upon photos of orphan kids going to make for 20 million orphans? There is no practical way to deal with those kinds of numbers.
“But why do so many photographers choose to photograph misery? Because misery sells?”
Jim, because shooting misery is easier. When was the last time you saw a really uplifting positive feature ?
Also I don’t think shooting misery sells like it used to, otherwise there wouldn’t be so many photojournalists scrambling for work.
VIVA ANNA BOYIAZIS !!!
Ouzo On ANNA and tiropitakia too!!!
Go Anna, Go Anna…
COME ON BURNIANS !!!
take a glass of wine and tell us
WHY? WHY …photography???
Can you BURN it???
WHY ?
Hello everyone.
I just started a blog site for lens-based artists (photography, film, video, etc). It lists news, opportunities, artists, publications and much more.
http://photoglablog.blogspot.com/
Might be interesting some of you Burnians.
Thanks, Laura
Well, it’s Gay Pride week-end. Let’s see if I can emulate Jim. You said 1/15th, 30 ft away?…. I will try!
:-)
thanks laura,
you’re in my bookmarks now.
wny photography? because it’s less annoying than quilting?
BTW, I wanted to post this link, and after seeing anna’s essay, I think this by Paula Bronstein may fit in this morning, the stance is not unlike Anna’s in many pictures:
http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2009/06/children_in_pakistan.html
Yeah, followed by people passionately debating the causes and impact while sipping a Latte and doing nothing. Because, there’s really nothing that can be done.
Sometimes I just can’t believe what spews out of peoples keyboards and onto this site….
I don’t think the public is “bombarded by this imagery” “numbed by it, and growing weary of it”… but we as photographers, maybe. We are the ones that see it over and over. Because we are the ones looking at each other’s work over and over.
How many people do you really think have seen Nachtwey’s TB work? Seriously think about it. I would bet is is a drop in the bucket compared to the audience of “the reality TV show of the week.”
I think the problem is that the mainstream does NOT see it. They are not having it thrust in their faces. Most major magazines in this country shy away from the same type of coverage that STERN might publish. Ford and Marriott do not want to run advertising next to starving kids, victims of genocide or aids.
Sure the public may be aware of the problem, but they don’t see it. Out of sight, out of mind. It does not affect them and that is why not much is done.
Jim you may be ooverwhelmed with it and numbed by it, but it is because you are seeking it out and looking at it everyday.
You run a newspaper, do an experiment. Ask Nachtwey if you can run a couple of his images. Ask your readers to respond and find out how many people have seen them and are aware of the TB problem. Or just walk around and do a man on the street.
My guess is that most of your fellow citizens have not seen them, are not that aware of the problem and worst of all probably do not care all that much because it does not directly affect them.
They are more comfortable being in their own little world, where issues like this do not invade their lives and they are happy to just pick up the paper everyday and see the sweet, wonderful, “everything is OK in our corner of the world” images that you prefer to push into your readers faces.
Pete, so you think photographers should then keep producing images, over and over, of subjects which you acknowledge they are never going to get the “public” to look at? Or that the “public” doesn’t care about? Or that the “public” doesn’t want to see?
I think you are wrong, though. I talk to a lot of people who don’t watch cable news anymore or subscribe to a large daily anymore because they are tired of being deluged with images of war and pain and suffering that is beyond their power the change.
There is nothing I can do about 20 million AIDS orphans in Africa. There is nothing the entire United States can do about it. What’s the point of continually photographing the same story and pushing it into our faces? I can’t do anything about genocide in a third world country. The United States can’t do anything about it. Why show me the genocide decade after decade? Why show me the latest version of politically created famine? I can’t fix it, neither can the political will of the United States.
It’s no wonder people have switched off, stopped watching Cable News and reading news papers. They are tired of unrelenting misery they can do nothing about.
“There is nothing I can do about 20 million AIDS orphans in Africa. There is nothing the entire United States can do about it. ”
“I can’t fix it,”…. can’t or don’t want to try?
What if that was the attitude during WWII and the holocaust?
Well then your right, we should just ignore it and give up. Now lets all go out and shoot that cute kid with the ice cream cone….
Jim = clueless about how ‘help’ works
Bono = Blair and Clinton and Bush and Obama using images like this to steer help
You can google this so you dont have an excuse to remain cluless.
Joe, on my wall is a print of Kevin Carter’s 1984 photo of the child and a vulture along a road during still another politically created famine. Picked up a Pulitzer for the coverage. Twenty five years later and you can go to many places in the world and shoot a similar photo. The situations have gotten worse. I’m glad Bono is doing what he is doing. And I contribute to Oxfam International. But the problems are bigger than the resources available to fix them. And photos are the least effective of all.
Nachtwey has spent his professional life showing us war after war after war to no real avail. I don’t know how he has not grown cynical.
“Nachtwey has spent his professional life showing us war after war after war to no real avail. I don’t know how he has not grown cynical.”
Because he actually cares.
I believe that he does care. But now he is at the end of his career and what difference have his photos made? Nobody, after seeing the images in the book “Inferno” should ever accept war again. But they just keep happening.
Am I mistaken but have we not argued this point before with our friend from Culver County, Texas? Over and over and over again??? Jim’s attitude of “Don’t show me what I can’t fix” is one shared by many in this country. It is what allows oppression, wars, disease, brutality, bigotry, genocide and other “social and political ills” to thrive unchecked by public outrage and concern. It is what allows people to shed huge tears at the death of a pop music star while remaining unmoved by photos of children orphaned by HIV/AIDS in Africa.
We will never change Jim Powers’ mind on this so why do we keep letting ourselves get drawn into an argument with him? Since Jim first appeared here on Burn, he has shown absolutely no inclination to be moved by our arguments, reasonings, photos or even name-calling. Jim Powers is an immovable object.
I know it’s hard to let Jim’s in-your-face pronouncements pass unchallenged, but unless articulating our position leads us to more action, more commitment to our photography, more engagement with the world, posting the “same old, same old” here in Burn is a total waste of time…and time is what we need to do our work as photographers and as human beings. Time is not an unlimited resource: it grows shorter for each of us with each passing day no matter what our age. I have just lost ten precious minutes of my life writing this comment, ten minutes I could have used in a more positive, productive way.
I’m done worrying about Jim Powers’ archaic attitudes. Are you?
Patricia
Patricia, which of these issues has your photography solved lately?
” But now he is at the end of his career and what difference have his photos made? ”
Nachtwey is at the End of his career? WOW!
Maybe DAH can get Jim to elaborate on the impact of his imagery.
Maybe Jim Powers would like to hear about the influence Ron Haviv’s images published in Newsweek had on the Balkan war. Or the ones he shot during the Panamanian elections.
Maybe he needs a refresher course on the impact of Nick Ut’s photos of the napalm drop.
Or maybe something as simple as Bill Allard’s image of a young Peruvian shepard boy who he photographed shortly after his flock was run over by a truck…. There is a great story there.
“The whole world becomes like a candy-store to a 4-year old.” The problem with that way of thinking is that a 4 year old is not concerned with the consequences of their actions…….. They grab grab because it is there and then hit the greed button.
Hey that sounds like facebook, youtube, mana seja smird etc, the places where the photography of today is alive and well and cater for all. Sites like this are mainly about self indulgence, self promotion, posturing, squirming, one-upmanship and ” I”. and that’s what is fun about them except for those that think this is all about making it.
Lighten up…………..
Pete, there aren’t many 60 year old war photographers.
Yeah, Allard’s story brought what in donations? $8,700, something like that?
“Yeah, Allard’s story brought what in donations? $8,700, something like that?”
and what do you think that meant to a poor Peruvian family? Jeeze you are a cynical SOB!
HELLO ALL…. sorry i have been MIA for awhile. after LOOK3 i slept for a week, then caught up on my real job at NG for a week – i am starting to get my life back and feel normal again. i was lucky enough to see william eggleston speak at the corcoran gallery of art recently – wow what a thrill. got him to sign my book too! that week i also got to see the film “blood trails” – which i missed at LOOK3 (too busy) – loved it! if you have not seen it yet – try to.
JIM – Nachtwey is not JUST a war photographer – he is a concerned photographer who CARES about this world we all live in. his recent work on TB is amazing and YES it has opened peoples eyes and will make a difference! i also did not know that careers end at 60.
PETE – thanks for the LOOK3 pix – still going through them…
ANTON – i know i told you and david this at LOOK – but the BURN presentation is FABULOUS!!!!! you two did an incredible job. xo
Gina
I do have a few more to post, just been busy.
I will let everyone know when they are up.
“Patricia, which of these issues has your photography solved lately?”
Poor, Jim, you just don’t get it, do you? It seems like you have a mind filter that only lets in what you already think you know. Your questions belie a lack of attention to what the other person was trying to say. Ah well, not worth any more of my time…
Patricia
GINA
You and Andrew and ALL the folks who worked on LOOK3 did a superlative job! What a three-day orgy for photography lovers that was! Everything was so well thought out and PACKED FULL of interesting, varied talks, presentations, slideshows, gallery exhibits, parties and opportunities to meet and spend time with some of the most iconic members of the national and international photo world. And it truly WAS all about “peace, love and photography.” I will hopefully be at every LOOK3 from here on out. It will be hard to wait two more years for the next one but you folks deserve a break.
OK, Burnians, start putting away $$ so you can attend LOOK3 2011. It will be worth every cent, even if you have to travel to get to the States. Trust me, there’s nothing quite like it. It’s like family…and not even a disfunctional one!
Patricia
PATRICIA – THANK YOU – i think you best summed up what LOOK3 is all about… a 3-day orgy for photography lovers… ha ha. it truly is family! i am actually looking forward to the time off – we need to re-group, nail down funding, create contracts, apply for grants, etc, etc… and we just never had time to do that because we start right back up for the next one. xo
PETE – looking forward to seeing more of your pictures!
jim
i’m posting anonymously, so you’ll have a stock response and i can’t blame you for that, but, man, you are a jackass. your own work is mundane at best… your views are unrelentingly negative… many photographers are dreamers and artists and not, as you seem to be, of the view that it’s all been done and we should move on… leave us alone.
a.
I don’t think the public is “bombarded by this imagery” “numbed by it, and growing weary of it”… but we as photographers, maybe. We are the ones that see it over and over. Because we are the ones looking at each other’s work over and over.
That’s because most of the public have better things to do than watch it over and over again, let alone have or want access to this stuff.
Wacko Jacko 1……… war/poverty etc and it’s photo buddies a big fat zero
Hey guys, had a great day ay Gay Pride #1 (it was dikes day. One of these days where I indeed felt pretty amongst strong women).
this discussion, yes, I have no idea why you keep trying to take Jim to task. It’s not like he is offering any kind of wisdom. I mean, 30 or 40 years of experience, a life in photography, thanks but we have David for that. Jim of course, as he says, is getting paid for it. good enough, but try to put these words in David’s mouth….
That pretty much sums it up.
Jim, All
“You know, the photos are technically good. But they say nothing about AIDS, and could have been taken anywhere in Africa of many groups of disenfranchised people.”
I am against a descripstions under essays and selected pictures. Especially this long descripsions. First of all because we are here for photography not for news. We “photographers” watched a thousends of photos of povery and disease. We are probably are most sensitive for this kind of stuff (excluding JIM). I read many important news without important pictures, here we have many important pictures but we all know most important news.
And maybe for you Jim this kind of photos are “technically good, but reast are bullshit”, but for me we humans live in very dificoult world. Because even our need of bearing help and witness, even our sensitive hearts are base for missunderstending.
Why?
Mostly because we want be the best, or just better than photographers we admire, I think.
When I see homless person I want take a pictures greates than James Nachtwey.
Yes in this moment I want be like James Nachtwey.
But also because Nachtwey’s pictures moved me and talk to me. Because I am sensitive in this particulary way.
Of course I can’t help. I will not give him my house, I will not join to red cross, only because the pictures of human drama touch me.
But I know many people who not only will not help but also will not think like we are. When I travel in Cuba I was in shock because I heard from polish turists awful words like “how dirty cubans are, they so poor and many live like animals”
Fuck! This words was from people who live In the same country like Cuba only ten years ago! They where cubans! But now they are rich tourists.
Most of people have no compassion Jim.
They need fun and cleanes.
That’s why I think pictures like Anna’s are always welcome. Are always needed. Even if only Anna feel compassion. Even if only Anna want to help.
It’s one person more.
Probobly I’m wrong, but this is what i think.
Please!
The question wheter help is effective or not, or wheter we change anything or not is in my eyes very useless. To help or to change something is extremely difficult. Very, very difficult! Money alone won’t do the trick and good attitudes alone won’t do the job either. To me the key question is wheter someone is willing to make a difference or not. Some people donate money, some take pictures, some can only offer their time. To try is the important part. The result of help can hardly be measured and numbers are the worst measurement. Help or change can come in many ways.
I wish everybody a nice and peaceful Sunday!
I’ve got to go and take some pictures!
Best
Reimar
Reimar, so if I offer a man falling 16 floors off a building a length of sewing thread to catch himself, I have “helped?” I might feel better about myself for having done something, but the poor guy is still going to die.
“But also because Nachtwey’s pictures moved me and talk to me. Because I am sensitive in this particulary way. Of course I can’t help. I will not give him my house, I will not join to red cross, only because the pictures of human drama touch me.”
So we shouldn’t expect a practical result of these kinds of photos? Do we say, “I love beautiful, sensitive depictions of human suffering because they stir something in me?”
Or, “I bought Nachtwey’s ‘Inferno’ because it makes me feel terrible about war and I cried over the loss of life and the suffering.”
But then acknowledge that you can’t help? Are these photos just an emotional hit? Pretty pictures? Great composition? Terrific tonality? I guess I’m way too pragmatic to look at photos of misery that way.
JIM,
We can do and actually do something to some extent. No, we can’t save them all or be everywhere. But imagine a world with NO media coverage, NO aid, NO photographers etc in third world countries. It seems like your solution is to do nothing because we can only help a lucky few anyway. I think photographers like Nachtwey are quite happy if they can only help 1, 10 or maybe even a 100 persons throughout their career. No photojournalist can save the world, but at least they contribute in some way.
It’s not all (impossible) or nothing, but we can do something.
Jim
In XIX century a war was showed as a woman with big brest, flags and swords in hands. Like in theatre. I think photography and even inferno changed a lot! In humans mind. Of course for a moment because we are bloody animals and we all burnians could kill each other just like that during some awful war. Beacuse this is human’s nature. Everybody say that now world is worst than before. for me everything going in good direction. But it have to be done slowly and in people’s minds.
I always ask the same question: if you don’t agree with someones work what you suggest? What you propose?
If not this way, show me other.
Anything.
I am listening.
Marcin, I think what we need to be doing with photography (IMHO) is what Harvey does and McCurry does. Let’s do photography internationally aimed at helping us understand each other, rather than constantly documenting the failure of understanding. If you want to do concerned photography, do it locally where it has a real chance, if you understand what you are photographing, of making a difference.
Rather than 20 million aids orphans in Africa, do a story on domestic abuse in your own city or other local issue. The African government doesn’t care about your photos, and if they did you have no influence with them. Your local officials, if only for political reasons, do care how their city is represented, and do have the power to effect change. You may never get rich and famous covering local issues, but you have much more a chance of making a difference.
Jim
And now I full agree with you Jim.
And I really wish to see more photos of Shakira than another war on VII webside.
Com’on Jim you want us to clean our own backyards….where will we put our rubbish?
I love the “Hips Don’t Lie” video. Still trying to figure out how the guy who does the standing side flip gets so much air. Oh, Shakira is pretty nice, too. ;)
And the B&W video in “No” is great, as well.
I like Shakira in violet wig in “Las de la intución” video. :)
aHHH!!!
Shakira :)
BURN is raising the bar AGAIN :)
I love YOU allllll
Quincy Jones “Soul Bossa Nova” (1962)
WAKE UP BURNIANS…WAKE UP
PLEASE PROCEED TO THE MRS.ALESSANDRA …
ATTN: wake up!!!
It seems the white story has gone missing. Please report any sightings to the nearest authorities. I repeat, the white family has gone missing.
And you are surprised?
Narrow Minded Pragmatist: one who is hardheaded and willing to ignore their ideals to accomplish their goals.
Healthy Pragmatist: Understands that pragmatism is to be set at work within the stream of experience and considered as an indication of the ways in which existing realities may be changed.
“A social organism of any sort whatever, large or small, is what it is because each member proceeds to his own duty with a trust that the other members will simultaneously do theirs. Wherever a desired result is achieved by the co-operation of many independent persons, its existence as a fact is a pure consequence of the precursive faith in one another of those immediately concerned.” – William James
2 Getty Grants for Good Announced:
http://imagery.gettyimages.com/getty_images_grants/recipients.aspx?date=6-2009&grant=good&who=Kasmauski
Project Title: Save Our Cumberland Mountains – Karen Kasmauski
Project Title: Chronicle of a Death Foretold: Widespread Threats and Political Violence against Colombian Civilians – Stephen Ferry
See other great proposals at the Exceptional finalists link.
JIM,
I respect your views and I thought it would be great if someone would teach and sponsor some photographers locally, for example in third world countries. When governments in Africa doesn’t care, that’s exactly when you need outside support.
At the same time your saying this:
“Marcin, I think what we need to be doing with photography (IMHO) is what Harvey does and McCurry does. Let’s do photography internationally aimed at helping us understand each other, rather than constantly documenting the failure of understanding.”
DAH and McCurry aren’t exactly two local photographers.. I think of them both as the exact opposite.
Personally I’m most comfortable working locally allthough I’m not a PJ.
Martin, they are not local photographers. But they do best what can be done internationally, and that is try give us an understanding of other people and cultures, a far more useful thing, in my opinion, than endless photos of folks shooting at each other or intractable misery in for off places.
Martin, etc..see the link above re Getty Grants for Good (We proudly support photographers who use imagery to promote positive change in our world.)..here is one finalist re: teach and sponsor some photographers locally, for example in third world countries. When governments in Africa doesn’t care, that’s exactly when you need outside support.
Street Kids Becoming Photographers
Photographer: David Fricke
Nonprofit Partner: Both Your Hands
http://www.bothyourhands.org/
David Fricke will document the work of the organization Both Your Hands, as they teach orphans in
Uganda to become working photographers in the country’s rapidly expanding media and technology
infrastructure. This project covers two objectives – the development of a body of work documenting the
lives of orphans in Uganda, and the continuation of an educational program that will lead those same
children into careers in photography as the influx of technology in Uganda is opening the way for new jobs
in both newspapers and magazines. The non‐profit will sell the students’ prints to raise money for their
continued operations.
Rather than 20 million aids orphans in Africa, do a story on domestic abuse in your own city or other local issue
————————–
People do that. All the time. really, I don’t know on the side of publishers, but it’s a non-debate as far as photographers. IMO.
I do agree with you about how people deal with these photos, you know, “bleeding heart” and all that…
yet, there is nothing wrong with looking at good pictures from anywhere (without trying to break the world record on sensitity in an armchair) . Paula Bronstein are good shots that I wanted to share, more than the story, which I believe to be much less urgent than the earthquake of some year ago in Pakistan.
ERICA,
Thanks! Interesting stuff!
Cheers
Despite Nachtwey’s amazing career, the world today remains a pretty fucked up place. But the very same is true even with Harvey’s and McCurry’s careers. So who’s really making a difference? Photography alone cannot change the world. Art alone cannot change the world.
Humans, collectively, can–and do–change the world. Slowly but surely the world changes for the better. Fits and starts, two steps forward, one step back… yes, sure. But we continue on.
Nachtwey has played a not insignificant role in his short time on earth. Other have played a greater role, others still lesser roles. But together things happen.
I admit that I too have grown tired of seeing essays that depict trailer park families or used up drug addicts barely getting through their lives. Depressing essays depress me. I’ve learned to tune them out. At the Look3 festival of 2008, the overwhelming abundance of photo essays depicting death and destruction and famine and misery was just crushing. Wanted to blow my brains out! However, of course I don’t think this type of photojournalism should just stop. (not that it ever would or could!) It just doesn’t float my boat. And as stated above, I don’t have any illusions that it will make that great wonderful change in the world. It has a role, plays a part… but so much more does as well and it is that slow long arc of the universe bending toward justice that matters. Not whether one photographer’s work will “make a difference.”
Peace.
re the debate over photos making a difference on a very micro but tangible level, this piece referencing three very different photographers may be of interest.
http://www.popphoto.com/Features/My-Photos-Made-A-Difference
Correct me if I’m wrong Jim (and I have no doubt you will) – but on the basis of what you have just been saying, you would probably say the first snapper quoted, Ed Kashi, is wasting his time covering stories like oil and oil corruption in Nigeria? Because again, the odds against real change coming in that situation of greed and capitalism is very slim. But it would be next to nothing without the coverage we get from the likes of him, other journalists and academics raising awareness. And with America buying 20% of Nigerian oil these human rights abuses are very relevant to his main market.
Do you have a view on this kind of photojournalism? Does this differ so very much from these other issues and can you really say there is no point in any journalists covering such subjects?
edit: the odds ON real change coming in that situation are slim, is of course what I meant to say.
ciara, it’s too little. Kashi’s huge effort, and churches helped a boy. How many more boys ended up in the same bad situation while during the time this one benefited? The problem won’t be resolved by a 1000 Kashi’s with cameras. Should Kashi and others stop shooting this kind of thing? They certainly have the right to spend their life in whatever way they see fit, but the government that could actually do anything about this benefits from it and isn’t going to be moved by “exposes'” or bad press.
It’s not only that I’m cynical (I clearly am), it’s that we have a record of decades of concerned photography. Cable news is filled with photos and video of atrocity after atrocity, war after war, genocide after genocide. And all of these images have changed things very little. Rather, they have hardened viewers to misery and suffering. Made us more likely to turn the page or change the channel. At some point we need to acknowledge, as photographers of misery, that what we are doing is not working. But misery is what many photographers shoot and what consistently wins contests and awards.
Jim…
am watching Bill Moyers’ NOW, and he is talking with poet W. S. Merwin..and I thought of you and your cynicism and your pain..Some years ago Merwin was on NOW and he read a poem called
*************************
YESTERDAY
My friend says I was not a good son
you understand
I say yes I understand
he says I did not go
to see my parents very often you know
and I say yes I know
even when I was living in the same city he says
maybe I would go there once
a month or maybe even less
I say oh yes
he says the last time I went to see my father
I say the last time I saw my father
he says the last time I saw my father
he was asking me about my life
how I was making out and he
went into the next room
to get something to give me
oh I say
feeling again the cold
of my father’s hand the last time
he says and my father turned
in the doorway and saw me
look at my wristwatch and he
said you know I would like you to stay
and talk with me
oh yes I say
but if you are busy he said
I don’t want you to feel that you
have to
just because I’m here
I say nothing
he says my father
said maybe
you have important work you are doing
or maybe you should be seeing
somebody I don’t want to keep you
I look out the window
my friend is older than I am
he says and I told my father it was so
and I got up and left him then
you know
though there was nowhere I had to go
and nothing I had to do
***************************************
And Jim, Bill said just now that the show received a multitude of phone calls from sons saying that after they heard Merwin read this poem that they called their fathers. A poem, and why not a photo – can touch, and make change, in ways that you may never hear about or understand, but in ways that matter to the people who are reached..
And all of these images have changed things very little. Rather, they have hardened viewers to misery and suffering. Made us more likely to turn the page or change the channel.
I’d be interested in seeing some of your evidence for these statements.
At some point we need to acknowledge, as photographers of misery, that what we are doing is not working.
Define “working.”
(correction, was watching Bill Moyers’ Journal, not NOW)
michael, I can not resolve your logical fallacy. But, it’s a good debating tactic.
erica, there was a positive reaction to the poem because some guys hearing it were able to pick up a phone and make that call. It was easily resolved.
Show photos of 20 million AIDS Orphans and most folks will shake their heads and say, “How awful, somebody should do something about that.” And then go about their business.
Too reductive, Jim..
Just please try appreciate that it is possible to stir people’s hearts and minds into action through a creative medium. I have to laugh a little at the thought that calling your parent when you are living with a schism between you, is something more easily resolvable than clicking a ‘donate now’ button to supply a child with a month’s supply of meds..
I’ve had a fabulous week shooting and am in a particularly good mood :) so here’s one for you JIM..
“And all of these images have changed things very little.”
Who are you to say what might have been? Everything changes everything, every millisecond, leading us down just one of infinite interwoven timelines. Who are you to say what might have been, or what has, has not, or will happen?
“He not busy being born is busy dying.” – Dylan
HEY JIM
Listen and learn….
Yeah. Seen the video Pete. I think Nacthwey is a good man.
This whole discussion is circular. You’re not moving and I’m not moving.
Agree to disagree.
Actually you are the only one not moving… the rest of us are…. forward.
A quick thought..then must run..
JIM..you are sharing with us your truth based on your experience and you will stand behind it because it is true, for you.
I (and many people here) have a different truth based on my experience and I (we) will stand behind it because it is true, for me (us).
I am optimistic in part because the people around me ARE ‘saving the world’..and I know the power of simple acts and gestures, including photography..the list is long but I have a friend who was on a fulbright in the Congo and spent her free time riding into remote villages on the back of a motorcycle to educate the villagers about ebola..I have a friend who organized a photo exhibit to help tsunami victims and raised money through donations of prints by magnum photographers among others (http://www.jennifermacfarlane.com/spice/spice.html)..I have a friend who is bringing together Somalian refugees to create a garden in the middle of an urban nightmare..I have other friends who are working with literacy programs, running triathlons to raise money for cancer research, running free art programs for kids, rehoming dogs out of mexico, working with street kids, building a country retreat for urban young mothers..the goodness goes on and on..have some faith in humanity, in simple acts, in kindness and goodness and growth and change. Photography may be one small tool in sustaining us and the world around us, but it is a tool that many use to good effect. If it isn’t working for you, either turn into an apprentice again and see what you missed the first time, or do something else to do your part (as you have said you do with charities) and leave the rest of us to do our best to ply the tool of our choice. Or figure out how the tool can be better used..but I think if you could surround yourself with the change you wish for, you’d find that it is better to chip in and help than to sit around complaining about what isn’t..
my (our) experience :)
Erica, I resolved some time ago to only focus my camera on the positive things. If you feel led to be a crusader with a camera, more power to you. There is plenty misery in the world to point your camera at.
I don’t feel led to be a crusader..this isn’t about me
I was referencing your position that nobody cares enough to do anything..and that nothing changes..it just isn’t true..come on over to the light side of the equation.
Logical fallacy? Mine? All yours Powers. From the beginning.
Erica
We all know by now that we are wasting our breath.
Last post from me tonite, really..but Pete, you just gave me a fabulous idea.
Jim I mean this in the best light..think of all the good that may come to you if a bunch of us ask for a little help on your behalf from St. Jude. Hoe you can enjoy this!
The Apostle Saint Jude Thaddeus is the Patron Saint of lost causes. It is customary to make a vow that if he helps when called upon, one will publish a notice of thanks in the newspaper. If St. Jude answers this prayer, I’ll publish thanks in Jim’s paper.
O most holy apostle, St. Jude, faithful servant and friend of Jesus — People honor and invoke you universally, as the patron of hopeless cases, of things almost despaired of. Pray for JIM, for he is so helpless and alone. Please help to bring him visible and speedy assistance. Come to his assistance in this great need that he may receive the consolation and help of heaven in all his necessities, tribulations, and sufferings, particularly close mindedness and that he may praise God with you always. I promise, O blessed St. Jude, to be ever mindful of this great favor, to always honor you as my special and powerful patron, and to gratefully encourage devotion to you by publishing this request. Amen.
Hi. Hope you guys can help.
I signed up on PHOTOSHELTER, which was a blessing in itself so thanks BURN people for pointing us in there direction. I signed up for the FREE 150MB. Problem is, when I search for my images NONE seem to come up in general SEARCH, wether I type in my name, or gallery name.
I’ve made a homepage, “petergrantphotograph” and have very quickly filled it, and am concerned that nobody can see it as I was hoping to show some people here my work when there was time.
Sure you mob can help another ‘stupid photographer’. Either way, Cheers.
….. You guys are still arguing with Jim? WAOUUUUUUU….. :-)))))
Just got back from la Gay Pride. I don’t know what it is with me with the last week of June, but just like last year, at le Bal Magnumin Paris, I almost got arrested for taking pictures…I must be cursed….
This time, it was for getting off the sidewalk one too many times and get closer to the participants (sorry, Jim, I felt miserably at emulating you), at the very end when there are no crowds or fences anymore. The “security” called the police, after I told them I had no press pass (that’ll be the day when I do!) the second time I trespassed, and yes, I thought of telling them I was David Alan Harvey from MAGNUM and NATIONAL GEO, where we don’t “DO” press pass, ahaha, but thought the better of it, and just took on my thickest touristy french accent, which was a much better idea, and helped me get away with it (Funnily, last year at Le Bal, it was being an american tourist that saved me!!!).
Anyway, after that, I played it safe, and just hung out way back, with the “slutty queer and street whores” float people….. :-)))
Another great Day in the life…. My favorite of the Day, was later, after the parade, the built floor where people danced country and western, line, 2 step but no square, understandably so…
http://johnedwinmason.typepad.com/
Herve;
I’ve been turfed off the steps of our parliament quite a few times photographing protests specifically because I didn’t have a parliamentary press pass. The last couple of times I’ve been ok because I’ve kept an eye out for a particular type of cop; the older, beat seargent. You know the type, greying hair, in their forties, still on the street because that’s where they want to be, etc etc. Usually a quiet word with works wonders!
I photographed last year’s Labour Party annual conference protest which got a bit nasty. I made a point of introducing myself to the venue security and when the police wanted to stop me going back and forth through the lines the BIG Polynesian security guard said to the police “No worries, he’s ok bro”!
Afterwards I wnet around all the police and thanked them for letting me have the acsess, they were stunned, it’d never happenned to them before! But NZ is a small place, and you never know when you are going to meet those police again.
Cheers
Just getting in from a long day and wondering —
DAH, Anton — Forgive me if you already weighed in on this but — Where did the White Family essay go? Why was it taken down, lots of good dialogue goes missing with it, and well, it seems a bit revisionist to take it down without letting us know what went down.
Again, maybe I missed it.
all –
David is in a cab right now in london heading to the airport. He will be back online here as soon as he gets home.
Carl Kiilsgaard requested us to pull the essay on the White Family for various reasons that we need to look into. As soon as David is back home we will be able to look into them, and re-post the essay soonest.
David, do you really want to spend your time investigating anonymous attacks against the photographers you feature? Just the fact that you are having to “look into” posts surrounding this essay should provide a clue that the comments under the essays are IED’s hidden among the photos.
My original name was Jude. My adoptive parents changed it to Paul as Jude was Patron Saint of “Hopeless Cases”.
Sometimes I think I should have kept that name.
Ross, The whole idea was to hang out, shoot loose, have fun, BE TOGETHER, no PJ work!
Actually, the cops in SF are OK, it’s usually one guy in the security staff, who is volunteering that day, over zealous, imbued with the sense of duty, that may cause problems.
I find it interesting that Carls wants the images pulled from here but chooses to leave them on his website.
Well, there aren’t anonymous posts on his website telling him he is going to burn in hell. Probably makes the difference, huh.
http://www.topix.com/forum/city/whitesburg-ky/TERHERDQJRETN8H0G
Well, those looking for the pictures found them on his website.
Tom, that’s a link to another forum, not his web site.
I have just read that the Carl Kiilsgaard ‘White Family’ has been pulled. This was apparently due to the comments so I checked the Google cache. The various pro and anti comments were all fairly predictable but the comment purporting to be from the White Family themselves was not.
If this comment was genuine it raises an issue I am struggling with myself. How many of the images displayed did the photographer show the family? If you are trying to document your subject, how much can you show before risking alienation and if this is a risk, are you doing the right thing in the first place?
If true, the family response to the work is one of betrayal, anger and revenge. Not a good recipe for the continuation of the project.
As a street shooter for most of my life, looking my subject in the eye with a photograph of them between us was never really an issue. However, for the last three years I have been working on a project and find myself deep in my subject’s lives.
I recently photographed a scene where an illegal firearm was being traded. I really didn’t mean to, but it happened in front of me and I instinctively shot a couple. I like the shot and it has relevance to the issue, but can I use it? My instinct says if the authorities in his country saw the image, he would be in trouble. I am happy to show him the image and ask his permission and, as far as I can figure at the moment, I am bound by his answer.
I am not trying to ride a high horse here; all I am saying is that (from one trying to make sense of it) working with the trust of a family seems to be a photographic minefield.
Walter, what is the point of this post? “If the comment was genuine” acknowledges that you don’t know, but are willing to take a whack at the photographer anyway.
If the real family had a problem with the photographer, posting on an Internet forum would not have been the most effective way to handle it. Contacting the photographer directly would have been the logical way to do it. Even posting under an individual’s name and asking David to contact them would have been better. Surely if they have Internet access they have a way to be contacted. Or maybe emailing David directly. But a made up name on an Internet forum? Doesn’t ring true.
Jim,’ but are willing to take a whack at the photographer anyway’. Is this praise?
Joking aside, I emphasised the fact that I did not know if this was true by my statements. I thought it was pretty clear that the issue I was raising was the relationship between photographer and subject, especially within a family dynamic. I clarified my doubts on the comment, THREE TIMES, purporting…..genuine…..if this is true…..
Hi Herve;
I realise you were looking for a fun shoot, I just thought my observation may help someone out at some stage.
Cheers mate.
ALL…
i am changing planes now ,but will have time in the morning to totally go over the White Family issue….as most of you know, i decided to pull the story off of Burn temporarily at the urgent request of the photographer….Carl and i are to have a telephone call tomorrow, where Carl can explain his entire situation which is not clear to me at the moment…
Carl did say from the beginning that he had full permission from the White family to publish his photographs…these photographs are certainly “out there” in many places on the net and including several well established print journals….to what extent Carl had permission from the White family, i am not sure…hence the pulling of the story off of Burn…
i will keep all of you informed as to what transpires…..this will no doubt raise many issues for all of us including implied trust from our subjects, legal written permissions, and the ever evolving libel laws affecting the internet….i do not think the internet law action stemming from potentially libelous comments from readers on an internet forum have been clearly established…even in print, the issue over the years has been subjective at best….i will also meet with an internet communications attorney to determine more accurately exactly what constitutes responsibility in publishing….can any publisher on the net be responsible for what readers say on an internet blog???
even if fake names are given it is always easy to track back to a particular computer, but even then it would be difficult i think to determine authorship of a comment from a legal perspective…if so , then an open comment forum would be an impossibility….that would mean that the owner of any computer would be responsible for anyone else using an individual computer to make comments on an open forum…sounds like very muddy legal waters indeed…..in any case, i will find out….
stay tuned….
cheers, david
In keeping with the dialog about AIDS etc, this may be of interest http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2009/06/22/portraits_of_instability.
Squeeky voices grease the wheel.
JIM…
since you are the news editor of a newspaper and a stickler for accuracy and correctness, how could you end a sentence with a preposition??? i.e. “There is plenty misery in the world to point your camera at”
c’mon Jim the copy editors at your paper would give you hell….
you are right about one thing though…..comments are most likely doomed….some people take their freedom, abuse it, and then end up taking the freedom from others….history does indeed repeat…
Shame on all of us for not getting this out to a wider audience. I’ve got to go turn down the thermostat, it’s a little chilly in my house.
Bully for every one of you all who see a wrong and want the world to see it!
Actually, David, the legal cases have favored the site owners in most cases in the US. Note the “in the US.” But the web site reaches everywhere and many of the photographers are not in the US. You’ve got the world’s laws to worry about. And, of course, even if you are sued and win, it has cost a bundle.
My bigger concern is that as the publisher of a serious photographic magazine, you don’t want to create a forum where your contributors can be libeled. This isn’t the wild, wild west of Roadtrips. This is an ethical issue in my eyes even more than a legal one. With no moderation of the comments, you become ethically, if not legally, complicit in attempts my anonymous posters to commit libel.
Either remove the comments, or heavily moderate them. Moderating them will require someone with their hand on the delete button all the time. Or someone approving them before they go to the forum. It would probably be easier to just do away with the comments.
As for preventing photographers from libeling others with their essays, I can’t imagine how you negotiate that minefield, legally or ethically.
H.W. Folwer (A Dictionary of Modern English Usage) had this to say:
“It is a cherished superstition that prepositions must, in spite of the incurable English instinct for putting them late…be kept true to their name and placed before the word they govern…Those who lay down the universal principle that final prepositions are “inelegant” are unconsciously trying to deprive the English language of a valuable idiomatic resource, which has been used freely by all our greatest writers except those whose instinct for English idiom has been overpowered by notions of correctness derived from Latin standards.”
Heh-heh… Your “concern” is duly noted, Jim.
michael, it seems to me David is also concerned, don’t you think?
Not the point.
As I said before, make a login system. That will atleast prevent a bit of what has been happening.
Yes Dave. I guess human nature is the culprit!
Good luck with everything.
Hang in there BURN.
Just an idea. Could it work to have a “complaints” option under every comment where everyong has the option to “click” and send a complaint to BURN and if you deem it correct, you have the power of the mass’s to b
“ban” that contributer?
So what has everyone been shooting today? It’s been cold and windy here today, but yesterday i got down to the beach and got a nice portrait of a couple of young surf lifeguards practising in their IRB.
Cheers
Login system is ok. And some moderation of comments also. Every newspaper with comments do that.
(And it’s not a communism…)
So what has everyone been shooting today?……… no shooting just doing stuff http://www.etrouko.com.au/omel.htm
Dear Friends…Have just signed up for a twitter account. Wondering if there are any other Burnians on twitter? Does Burn itself plan to be on sometime? You can find me at http://twitter.com/gallagher_photo
Best,
Sean
The saying attributed to Winston Churchill rejecting the rule against ending a sentence with a preposition must be among the most frequently mutated witticisms ever. I have received many notes from correspondents claiming to know what the “original saying” was, but none of them cites an authoritative source. The alt.english.usage FAQ states that the story originated with an anecdote in Sir Ernest Gowers’ Plain Words (1948). Supposedly an editor had clumsily rearranged one of Churchill’s sentences to avoid ending it in a preposition, and the Prime Minister, very proud of his style, scribbled this note in reply: “This is the sort of English up with which I will not put.” The American Heritage Book of English Usage agrees.
The FAQ goes on to say that the Oxford Companion to the English Language (no edition cited) states that the original was “This is the sort of bloody nonsense up with which I will not put.” To me this sounds more likely, and eagerness to avoid the offensive word “bloody” would help to explain the proliferation of variations.
The above can be found, along with more variations at http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/churchill.html
Cow essays. Good grief!
I think we all should take a moment and give Jim a little credit here…..posting his opinion by linking to a youtube vid ….
:)
Evening light is almost upon us here in teh bluegrass, I go off to shoot.
good light all,
A.
Holy shit Imants, what the hell is that stuff?
I dig the cow essay. Why? I love two things. Its so different from the subject matter so far on Burn. I must give the guy props for going something without the suffering factor built into it. And I love the flash treatment. Very cool, unusual essay.
That should be gal, not guy.
Sobol??????
didnt make the final cut?????
hmmmmm…….. not surprised…….
One “hit” wonder man……..
happens alot!!!!
Imants……!!!!!!!!!!!
great stuff…….. the “white” hand ,the “black” SLAVES…
the CHAINS….
America is been build on “free” work…
“Volunteers” from Africa… build this monster……….
RELIGIOUS CREEPS, EUROPEANS, WHITE ASSHOLES exterminated the native american culture…
Christian bullies and criminals offered blankets full of malaria while the indians offered turkeys……
And we have the nerve to celebrate THANKS GIVING……
it should be called “thanks stealing”, “thanks raping”, “thanks snatching”…
fucking Queen of Spain, conquistadores, fucking C.Columbus and his gang raped the natives..
Incas, Mayas, Aztecs……. forced to speak the ugliest language of all times: spanish..:(
Cherokees and the Sioux forced to speak the “gayest” tongue of all times: english…
but……….. it gets worst…….. all of those prime ancient cultures, the pyramid builders forced to believe in that religion of guilt and fear……. christianity……..the shittiest crime of all times……
beautiful places like minnessota or texas are occupied by fat white assholes ,,,,,,,,
churches, guns and superior attitude everywhere……..
fuck those hypocrites..
fuck christianity….
fuck that whore…..the queen of england…..
and of course , fuck that bitch queen of spain……….
Thanks giving is for the uneducated, the lame, the overweight, the beef lovers…….
wake up…..
shiiiiiiiiiit…
it gets worse…( not worst )… sorry..
laughing
That footage of the cow on youtube is similar to Jim’s monotonous rampages in all corners of Burn. It really comes as no surprise that he would deliberately offend an esteemed guest photographer who is here as a guest. His words have fallen foul once again.
As usual your words are offensive Jim, and by the way you still haven’t made your apology. Your misplaced pride is laughable, especially considering your small town press status. I also find it unusual that you your time in the newspaper hasn’t given you some ‘insight’, like for example not everyone uses English as a first language.
JJ
Jim knows how to offend. For the offense he wrote to Ms. Sanguinetti he should be banned from here until he does apologize.
Exactly. Also, potentially more damaging is how many future respected guest photographers maybe reluctant to comment here due to his slanderous antics. His personality has stained many a serious discussion like a rank fungus.
JJ
JIM….
i just do not understand why you did not make any attempt to apologize for your comment to Alessandra Sanguinetti…just a quick “sorry, i misunderstood” would have been the gentlemanly courteous thing to do…
you know very well i support your right to free speech here on the forum…even when everyone is totally offended by some of your comments, i give you the free speech benefit of the doubt…so, it is not about having opinions…you have yours..fine..but, here we are discussing women in photography and here is one of the best photographers on the planet and just happens to be a wife and mother, balancing personal life with personal work, and totally dedicated to making sure her relationships with people are so straightforward and honest and you come up with your comment making sure the vision some women have of male editors is locked down tight…
you disrespected Alessandra, your colleagues here, and me….
bad manners, bad habits, and a bad philosophy: one single bundle of bad energy.
There was this kid back in school named Alex. He was in my circle of friends until he didn’t make the squad. He did all kinds of things to vent, i won’t get into all of them, but one of the things he did was sometime during the night he shredded with a knife all the blocking dummies and the blocking sleds making them unusable by the team.
i see Alex and those harmless blocking dummies all over again with Jim Powers.
PANOS…
i am sure Sobol will move forward in Magnum…he was not voted out which could have happened..many nominees never make it ….but, he was asked to stay and try again……i am sure his strength and fortitude and talent will carry him this next year…..you should know that many of the “greats” have been held back for a year or two so they can really prove their authorship…for example, even Sebastaio Salgado was held as a nominee for two years i think when he first came in….Sobol’s “Sabine” made such a big hit that it is only natural that subsequent work would be judged against this first brilliant book…but, you are right…one of the reasons we have such a long grueling process is to guard against the “one hit wonder” concept…
cheers, david
We will see more of Sobol.
i have the book ‘I Tokyo’ and i think it’s a potent piece of work. i think he has a ‘way of working’ that seems to get him in the door and produce images i like to see.
i’m anxious to see what he points his camera at next.
ALL…
i have read from many the implications concerning comments…and the potential liability as an online publisher…tricky territory for sure….i certainly do not have any stomach for, or time for, or money for, a lawsuit….i do not know about it being an ethical issue , since with an open forum at what point would one decide “ethics”?? 5 seconds after the comment was posted, 5 minutes, or 5 days?? i just cannot be a constant watchdog on an open forum…so, i do think we will have no choice but to go to some kind of selected comment system…what started as a simple blog has grown to a point where we must become like any other large publication…maybe we have a “letters to the editor” after each story …totally allowing for opposition, but freeing us all from the kinds of comments that deter others from commenting, or worse, setting me up for a lawsuit based on someone’s irresponsible comment…i do not honestly think that would happen with all of the freewheeling blogs out there, but BURN can no longer be considered freewheeling blog…a monitoring system would not affect 99% of the comments here, but would make it way more enjoyable for most writers and readers….
when i spend my day talking to lawyers instead of either making photographs or editing the work of others, i know that things have gotten skewed in the wrong direction…but, do not worry…it will work out just fine…your opinions on this issue now are of course most welcomed….
on the positive side of our forum, i had such a terrific time meeting with Lassal, Ben, Joe, David B., Paul and John in London last week…i.e. looking at Joe’s prints at the table between tequila shooters is my kind of editing!!! anyway, one of the great joys over the last three years has been in personalizing our relationships here….i have met personally literally hundreds of you in various cities around the world…quite moving actually…we will not lose this face to face contact….
please bear with me while we fix what is wrong with BURN…but i live life with a positive approach….my feeling has always been that it is impossible to do something positive if you are thinking negative…
yes, something must be going right….
last week the Magnum photographers unanimously elected me as the head (yea, pres, ceo, smiling) of our new online media company Magnet….on my board are Alec Soth, Jonas Bendikson, and Gilles Peress….because this is a separate company from Magnum, but owned by Magnum, i am now responsible for all of our future development and online channel strategy…i will work with other Magnum photogs to create personal channels for them and BURN will be syndicated through Magnum and perhaps through other media as well…this falls right in line with my efforts to get enough sponsorship for BURN to put some of you to work….
well, somebody has to do SOMETHING in this declining biz environment and i think the time is absolutely right for a small company operating with stealth to fill in where the big media companies are now failing…
BUT, right now i am riding my bike to the beach….and soon after a good swim, i am starting work on my handmade book project….BALANCE…yes, balance is always the key word for everything…i will put a lot of work into BURN and into MAGNET…yet, totally balanced by shooting, publishing and mentoring for those of you who seek it….
wishing all of you a good day….think positive please…it just feels better…
cheers, david
DAH / ALL..
I could be mistaken but my understanding (form what he has said in numerous ways) is that because Jim is so against burn being able to receive comments, he is actively trying to shut them down..hence the clogging up the site / rudeness, etc. He wants the comments in a separate forum, away from the photographs, though I don’t fully understand the reasoning. I have assumed that he knows that we know this is his objective and agenda, even if it means being rude to a wonderful and generous guest.
DAH simult. posting..that is great news..wishing you a wonderful day too..
erica, the reasoning is very simple. Do you want what happened under the White Family essay to happen under an essay, say, by Steve McCurry? David wants this to be a serious photography magazine. You can’t that have kind of thing or rants full of profanity on a serious, professional web site.
There is no personal agenda on closing the comments. I enjoy posting on Internet forums. But, as David noted, this is moving way beyond a personal blog.
Mr. Harvey & Anton,
Thanks for all that you do for Burn. I rarely post, but read it everyday and feel like I’ve learned a lot!
The Hold Steady – “Stay Positive”:
JUSTIN…
welcome…you may call me David….we do indeed hope you will stay with us, submit some of your work, and participate in the discussions….the point of BURN is that we will all learn a lot from each other…
ERICA…
i will be back in New York in late july (Italy from the 18-26) and do indeed hope to see your new layout…please call me sometime after the 26th…if you find yourself down south, please stop in for a bit of beach hospitality….
cheers, david
You can’t that have kind of thing or rants…… on a serious, professional web site.
—————————————–
Look who’s talking.
Herve, have I ever posted a profanity filled rant or told someone they are going to “burn in hell?”
Has Alessandra ever posted what you said she did?
(got you!)
I’m still not sure where Alessandra is coming from. As I sad in the thread, perhaps I just didn’t understand the way it was worded.
We clearly think differently about what constitutes exploitation.
Johan,
Jim’s rants actually made me want to submit something to burn the other day, so I did. No word on whether or not I will be selected. If I am, can’t wait to read his reactions.
Mr. Harvey, couldn’t a disclaimer saying that Burn is not responsible for postings take care of most of the problems?
Love the site. I even love the rants, especially if I don’t agree with them.
now is Jim’s fault…..
come on guys….I dont think mr power has all that power to influence DAH’s decisions.
Actually i’ve never seen him personally attacking anyone (though being often attacked).
I may not agree with most of his comments but i think he’s never superficial (and -god bless him- always concise). Really dont understand all this resentment towards him.
HERVE…
hey amigo, how are you doing?? sorry you were not in this year’s Magnum party mix…but, i suppose your fear of being arrested again might have kept you away……actually this London gathering was very very austere compared to the Paris bash last year due to a much tighter rein on the party budget which is properly prudent in these times…
Alessandra politely explained to Jim even after his rude question…class act she is…….anyone who knows her work, and anyone who writes to her should know her work, would never ask any questions about exploitation of any kind since she obviously has spent years with her two main subjects and they are very close friends…nor would she ever advocate any kind of exploitation…yea, i am still mad and embarrassed for Alessandra at our boy Jim….anyway, i will get over it….
cheers, david
LUZZ…
normally i am with you 100%….this time however, Jim did cross the line..go back and take a look…i am ONLY referring to his question to Alessandra….
DAH..
am in such an amazing shooting place right now, am terribly grateful and excited. The proof is in the pudding of course, and the person who handles my film is in China for weeks still..I have over 20 rolls waiting already..it’s going to take me awhile to catch up with the scanning once he is home, but I feel like between your feedback, Gene R’s and Paul Fusco’s, I have a really good grip on how / why I am shooting this now, and from the moment I stepped off the subway post LOOK, everything looked and felt anew. As soon as anything is show-able again, I’ll let you know..July / August may be a little early..end october is the goal for wrapping up shooting, but who knows..at the rate I am going now I may burn out and be done sooner than expected. Have started going out at night now too..am a bit of a crazed creature.
Curious if you have ever seen a copy of Invisible City by Ken Schles…I was on the phone with Marie discussing my project and his book came to her mind. The book is out of my price range, but his newer Geometry of Innocence just arrived in the mail today, and I hope to go over and meet Ken and see Invisible City. He recently offered a book layout workshop and may do another..am considering that if the timing is right. I really want the dark light of this nothing to hit the mark..
***************
Jim, re: “David wants this to be a serious photography magazine. You can’t that have kind of thing or rants full of profanity on a serious, professional web site.”
If, after you’ve shared your opinion, the way burn is run and managed displeases you, then you shouldn’t be here. You’ve made your concerns really clear, but it isn’t your decision how this site is run. If you stay and continue to thrust your perspective into burn in away that disrupts because it is important to you that things change, that is a personal agenda. David is a smart man and seeks out opinions and advice when he wishes, and he also listens. Instead of being a destructive force to prove your position, you could have simply written a thoughtful letter to the editor.
erica, I have no idea what you are trying to say. There is no agenda in my posting my opinions. As you point out, David is going to do what he wants to do. It’s his party. You are giving me far too much credit for power I do not have. You clearly don’t like me, and that’s fine with me. But that dislike is skewing your perspective. You have ascribed to me an influence I don’t possess.
“Well, that’s the question, isn’t it? Is it hurting someone? You seem to be saying to just not worry about whether you are exploiting someone. Just do the work.”
is this the rude question/statement? maybe Jim meant to speak generally…..
I had the same kind of questions looking at Robert Polidori’s big prints of Katrina’s…
This issue will raise more and more controversial debates now that what was once for newsmagazines is primarily featured in trendy art galleries and sold for big dollars…
Jim..not sure why you are confused, I’ve tried to be clear.
First, I don’t think that you have any power. My perspective isn’t skewed, I understand how influence works, and I am suggesting that you could actually have influence if you would share your opinions in a more judicious and measured way.
Second, how can you say I don’t like you? We have never met. I actually like pretty much everybody, and have a soft spot for you..didn’t you catch my little love song to you the other day :) (from the soundtrack of Once, When your mind’s made up..)
If I looked back to your 3rd grade report card, I fear you’d have ‘doesn’t play well with others’ ticked..I am trying to say that burn intends to be inclusive, and that means you too, if you’d stop being such a drag. It really is a social deficit to not be able to takes cues from the people around you; if you are able to show some of the moderation and respect you extol, things will be grand.
DAH:
Greetings from Bucharest! What happened with Christopher Anderson at the meeting? Was he made a member?
Best,
Davin
any new nominees?
erica, I’m not interested in influence. Good or bad. And you are talking in circles.
DAH and All:
Need to share something. I had a horrible dream the other night. I dreamt I submitted a photo to Burn and it was published. Reading through the comments I found one from the fatuous Jim Powers… he liked it! Aaagh! Woke up shaking, in a pool of sweat! What a nightmare! ;^}
“erica, I’m not interested in influence.”..then there is no need for you to continually press the point about comments on burn. And I am sorry you have trouble following what I write, but I don’t think it is for lack of clarity on my part.
all..have a fantastic day shooting / editing or whatever connects you to your joy.
I think that Burn’s comments should be heavily moderated and that all long, pointless posts having nothing whatsoever to do with the matter at hand or photography in general should be swiftly deleted…except, of course, mine. I am not certain why I am making this one insignificant exception to the rule, I just am.
L.B.: ‘context is king’, you speak of a different context to excuse jim’s context and excuse his manners and his approach to insinuation and his approach to extrapolation, and his agenda to antagonise. but that’s ok L.B.. it’s a free country, fire away, but it doesn’t make sense, sorry. What does make sense to me is Jim’s concise with his agenda, we’re in agreement there.
slightly on-topic, last week i was standing in a room filled with my heroes and i was also filled with loads of questions to ask each of them, but the chance to gracefully do so, do so with respect, prevented me from exploring all of those questions. I reflected that i might actually be on the invite list because i wouldn’t embarrass the person that put me on the list: so loads of my heroes enjoyed the night without my constant interruptions and i was still thankful for the handful of conversations i collected. Lucky Martin Parr!!
ironically Alessandra was one of those heroes kind enough to chat with me and to meet her is to meet an angel falling to earth. I’m reminded now about that conversation and discussing briefly how she put her Magnum interests in touch by taking a stand on what the NYT put on the front page when Israel was entering Palestine. It’s simply easy to see she’s a crusader for humanity. I hope then it’s a bit understandable that it’s easy to get a bit defensive when a myopic thug takes a blind uninformed swing at her.
that said, i suppose it doesn’t matter if it’s a hero or a peer, or an initiate: grace and respect seem good aspirations. Maybe with age you can throw these things out the window, maybe they are not useful as you’ve got little time left on earth and it’s more efficient to cut to the chase? Jim could die of a heart attack tomorrow, with his overweight condition and age he looks like he might be in the high-risk group and maybe on his second heart-attack by now. Anyway, i wouldn’t know, i’m not old enough to start feeling that timing is not everything and grace is more important than aggravation.
and thus i guess i’m fortunate enough to be able to frequent places that you need both an invite and you don’t need an invite. Based on the fact that Jim’s been banned from the places he frequents, and is resigned to spend his time in the only place that won’t ban him then it all becomes clear: grace and respect will win in the long run.
This is all getting ridiculous. I am going to observe from afar until these disagreements get ironed out. We here to look at and discuss photography, not to be bickering!!!
Dear dear Joe, I so respect you and your views on all things photographic, but now it is time to stand back and let your resentments towards Jim Powers go. Well, if you have to hold onto them, I guess that’s your perogative. But please, for all our sakes, try to refrain from bringing such negativity here on Burn. These personalized insults do no one any good. As DAH said this morning, “think positive please…it just feels better…”
And Joe, please keep offering us the benefit of your analyses–they always make me see things in a new way.
Patricia
I’ll zip too :)
Last friday, in our local used bookstore, I found a copy of Don McCullins “Hearts of Darkness” plus a copy of Joel Meyerowitzs “A summers day”. I also bought a copy of the “ICP encyclopedia of photography”. (I got all three for about $50.00) Teusday, in the mail, “African Air” by George Steinmetz arrived, along with a new 18-50 2.8 Sigma for my Rebel. I was away for the weekend at an arts fest and busy busy mon and teus, but today being a Canadian holiday I plan to do some catch-up.
I’ve only had a quick scan through the books. I’ve seen many of the images in McCullins book reproduced in magazines, but never the whole book. Brutal brutal stuff, very hard to look at. (very poorly reproduced unfortunately.}
Same goes for Meyerowitz. I’d seen many of these beautiful gentle indtimate images in the old “Camera Arts” magazine, one of the photos was featured on the cover of an issue. I still have almost every issue of Camera Arts, I think the best photo mag ever published,..before Burn of course David (grin). Again, reproduction unfortunately not up to the standards we see now.
Stienmetz “Air” is unbelievably beautiful.
So today I will look at my new books, try out my new lens, and barbeque on the back deck. Happy Canada Day.
Hi David:
Just to try and clear the waters regarding my comment on my hellsten – fjällkor work.
I like to think I have a quite broad taste in music as well as in photography… Saying that in my personal opinion this was one of the weakest works that I saw published on burn isn’t surely proving the opposite.
I’m sorry that I can’t share the enthusiasm of everyone else for this work but simply doesn’t works for me…
Regarding the submission of work I have already done it twice, including for the EPF. If you would be so kind to have a look and give me some feedback would be much appreciated.
Many cheers,
Armando
Hey Armando,
As a fellow submitter, I’d be happy to provide some feedback if you want to send me a link.
Patricia, i’m getting the same advice from my therapist. but free advice is welcome.
Joe, this is the second time you have said I’ve been banned from forums and I’m still waiting for you to tell me what forums I’ve been banned from. You have information, obviously, that I don’t because I continue to post on all the forums I’ve been on for the last several years.
Either tell us which forums those are, or stop with the ad hominem attacks.
I’m just walking away from this Jim; should have ages ago and i’m ashamed i didn’t.
nothing goods going to come out of showing your issues: it never has.
**** forward ten seconds ****
Jim Who?
Uh, huh.
ARMANDO…
of course i will be very pleased to take a look at your work…and i know surely that not everything is going to appeal to everyone…frankly i saw the My Hellsten essay as an example of someone looking at something quite ordinary and making something interesting out of it..and, well, just fun….i certainly would not shoot an essay on white cows, but i love it when someone sees the world in a way that i do not see it…i also knew for sure that some would love this essay and some would hate it….so, i have no problem whatsoever with you disliking it at all…i was only surprised at what i felt was some anger, but maybe i misread that in your words…
do you want the feedback for your work here or in a private e-mail?? either is fine for me…
cheers, david
DAVIN….
no new nominees this year…..Chris Anderson will stay in his associate status….Chris is a very good friend and we talked about this of course…. i know he will have no problems moving forward next year….a strong photographer is a strong person is a strong photographer….
cheers, david
At some point, BURN stopped being about the photographs and started being about the commenters, and one commenter in particular. We need to go back to the way things were.
AKAKY…
within the hour i will make a new post announcing a new comment system…writers here will have to register…a bit of a pain, but you will have to register just once…there will be no UFO’s allowed on at all…this is too bad, because there are a couple of UFO’s we all like, but i cannot see any other way to do it..nasty and pointless comments will be deleted….intelligent comments which are against whatever is published for whatever reason will of course be included….your long discourses on the state of mankind will always be welcomed….
cheers, david
PRESTON…
we are on our way….thanks
Thanks David.
Great Point Mr.Preston…
BUT BURNIANS are looking only forward …
“i will count on you to help keep BURN all it can be, and i will do all i can to help you to be all that you are….”
…..david alan harvey
P.S WE CAN DO IT …together…alltogether…come on …help me out…
I am traveling around the Universe …
PLEASE…I know you LOVE BURN…please …we can do better than that…I LOVE YOU allllll
When I ‘ll be back I would love to see BURN …photo…burning :)))))))))))))))))))))))))
THANK YOU MR.HARVEY…
Αληθινος Ανθρωπος.
ANTIO
P.S BURN is the place to BE…
LOVE
LOVE
RESPECT
LOVE
LAUGH
SMILE…I will be watching you…
YOUR Dyslecix CIVILIAN
CIVI …!!!
:-((
ALL…
in a few minutes, we will implement a new comment system…you will have to register…but, only once….if you are a UFO we know like Civilian or Stoop, no problem…this way we eliminate the problem of serious negative trolls etc etc…nasty or irrelevant comments will be deleted….
many thanks for your patience…
cheers, david
i must have missed something lately but….who is civilian-mass-whatever?
you know greek, and you write just like panos…(and also several posts in a row like panos..)
is it you, panos????
or your cousin?
DAH,
Thanks for the patience and effort with this site.
DAH,
well first of all congratulations for your election! you definitely have a MAGNETic charisma ;)
http://www.americanscientist.org/issues/pub/burn-magnet-burn
“what started as a simple blog has grown to a point where we must become like any other large publication”
that’s painful to read… oh don’t get me wrong: I’m very happy (and grateful) for all what has been achieved by BURN in such a short time span, but I really enjoyed the participatory feeling (true web 2.0 approach!) that permeated RoadTrips first and baby-BURN then. On the other hand, it seems that every grown-up blog/community out there finally enforced some kind of comments moderation: quite sad, seems to confirm the homo homini lupus philosophy… If the registration method will not be enough, my hope is that a moderation system like this http://www.huffingtonpost.com/p/faq-comments.html can be introduced in BURN, but I can see also which kind of burden is put upon the poor moderator’s shoulders. Contrasting feelings, as you can see…
Something seems strangely interesting about this book:
http://www.steidlville.com/books/919-a-shimmer-of-possibility-softcover-edition.html
The description gives it gives a lot to live up to, but this sounds so dreamy:
“These filmic haikus avoid the forceful summation we usually find in photography, shunning any tidy packaging of the world into perfect images. Instead, life simply flows around and past us while we stand and stare, quietly astonished by its beauty and grace.”
Have a look, discuss!
David
After I logged in, I was automatically taken to a page which I think I am not supposed to visit…I mean there were sort of options to moderate on comments and those sort of things (as far as I could gather from a quick look)…is it all right?
I registered… But it took me to some sort of an admin page. Is that what you really want?
Testing.
bodo, john, tom, all –
no worries, that is your profile page, the most recent comments and some general site info…. nothing you can do wrong there… it’s very customizable, and handy to follow the most recent comments:-)
cheers,
a
I had the same experience with registering.
okay…thanks Anton…
btw, just a quick question
how can i remove this ‘official’ sort of lightish gray halo around my comments…i see others have that too?
+1 to what Brian says above. DAH, thank you for your generosity of spirit in enabling burn.
I am glad to see that comments, at least for now, will be around in one form or another. While I understand that there are some drawbacks to people being able to comment and the widely-ranging (raging?) discussions that might result, part of what makes burn. so dramatically different for me is the interaction, the feeling of community, the participation that just isn’t there on other sites.
New times call for new paradigms, and I think that burn is most certainly breaking new ground and will contiue to evolve and improve, not only delivering new, exciting, varied, and interesting photography, but also building the community and participation and awareness of the entire world of photography.
I have learned much from this site, and from the people I feel I can call my friends I’ve met here (some met in person, others still in pixellated format), and I know I have much, much, much more to learn and absorb. And it has made me want to learn, want to participate, want to improve.
This environment has helped me develop my passion for my photography, and photograpy in general. While I have no illusion of ever becoming a “famous” or “successful” or “desired” photog, I do know it has driven me to improve…and along the way improved me in so many ways.
good light, all,
a.
bodo –
a small css change that i’m doing now… the gray will be gone in a bit!
a
anton,
how do you link to your website now, or is it automatic if you are a known entity? what if you want to change it?
I am emcd from here on out
Testing 1, 2, 3…
Sound check…the fox with pox fell into the lox
Testing 1,2,3…..
bodo –
gray is history now… a little darker gray is the new black now :-))
a
hey erica,
it’s all automagic… and you can always go into your profile page and change your own personal info like your website link and such… (all except your username)
a
emced –
If you change your profile in the dashboard to include your web address that should work.
Would it be possible to have a SEARCH button, please? Today I was searching an essay.. I know, in the archives I can pick the month, but I barely remember which month we’re in now, go figure, when this or that essay has been published! Or is there a search function and I’m just blind? Thanks!
You can also change the nickname that appears in the forum at will, which is probably not the best thing. Definitely a step in the right direction, though. Thumbs up!
well this all feels a bit grown up. Good work Anton/david.
Anton. Dont get upset but……..I washed the car.
j
BRAVO to David and Anton for finding a way to retain Burn’s community/interactive nature while protecting us from unwelcome guests/comments. I trust we Burnians will respond to our new login system by leaving past resentments/personal baggage at the door and coming to the table with PHOTOGRAPHY foremost in our minds and hearts.
VIVA LA BURN!!!!!!
Patricia
let’s see if it works for me too….
jim,
in my opinion, it’d be a worse decision not to allow the user this control.
a
not really… what’s “your comment is awaiting moderation”????
whatever the nickname the name displayed is the username.
Test, testing, testing one two three testing….
Foreign language studies are an unjustly neglected part of American education these days, a fact that I think every American ought to feel a bit embarrassed and then more than a little concerned about. The study of foreign languages, like the study of history, expands the mind and slows the creeping provincialism of time and place that is all too often a defining characteristic of American civilization. It seems odd that in a society as relentlessly empirical as that of this our Great Republic there is no voice supporting the study of foreign languages as a tool for personal and professional advancement, but facts remain facts: Americans are notoriously bad at learning foreign languages. Indeed, one could make an excellent case that the troubles Americans have in learning foreign languages are dwarfed only by their struggles to learn English, an obscure West Germanic dialect whose speakers are largely found on large islands and pool halls.
The slow death of foreign language studies in American schools is counterbalanced by the growing demand for self-instruction CDs, so that the average person who wants to learn a foreign language may pick up the rudiments while driving to and fro from work. I can personally attest to the benefits of this approach, as I have spent a goodly number of transport miles deep in the study of Gibberish. My knowledge of Gibberish, although shallow at the moment, has already stood me in good stead. On my occasional photographic forays to the Great Metropolis, where I do my best to capture the indigenous inhabitants in their native habitat, a few well chosen words of Gibberish are often all I need to fend off the hordes of overly aggressive street vendors trying to sell me everything from a small A-bomb (the better to eliminate your boy/girl/whatever friend with a minimum of physical evidence left over to send you to the slammer) to tap dancing zebus (don’t ask). Faced with such a situation I merely say,
“Ag’du na cha’u’ay no tritogash angleskui.” Then I smile apologetically and say, “No spik Eeenglish.” I follow this blatant falsehood with a small bow and then walk away. The small bow is crucial, however; most Americans may not speak Gibberish with any degree of fluency, but everyone knows that Gibbers are an extremely polite people, almost as fastidious as the Japanese in their respect for the proper use of etiquette in any social situation.
Why, you might be asking yourself, would anyone choose to learn such an obscure language when there are so many other, more popular languages I could attempt to learn. There is Spanish, after all, which remains the most popular foreign language still taught in American schools, followed by French, Japanese, and Chinese. Latin is still extremely popular amongst dead people, as is classical Greek and Akkadian, and Akkadian, which is written on clay tablets with a wedge-shaped stick, also counts as a ceramics class credit in a good many universities nowadays. In the foreign language marketplace, Gibberish is a distinct nonstarter and yet this language has become wildly popular amongst the nation’s cultural and governing elites.
Why this is so is something of a mystery. The Gibbers are a small people, as ethnic groups go; most modern Gibbers and their country as well would fit comfortably inside a caravan of recreational vehicles heading up from Florida to see the grandkids over the summer holidays. But even with their demographic and geopolitical deficiencies, there is scarcely a capital city anywhere in the world where you will not find devotees of Gibberish. More than one modern politician has made a great name for him or her self for spouting nothing but the purest Gibberish in public, and the interested legal researcher can find whole passages in much of today’s proposed legislation written in nothing but Gibberish, usually without a convenient translation. The concerned citizen will often find such exercises in monolingualism in the section where the pol sponsoring this particular bit of boondogglery explains how the government is supposed to fund his legislative brainstorm. There’s nothing that brings out the inner Gibber in any politician faster than having to explain where the money is coming from; some things just sound better (and cost fewer votes) in Gibberish than they do in English.
Gibberish has also become extremely popular in many other walks of life, such as the arts and the academy. One can seldom read a critical essay on modern art, for example, without finding long purplish patches of Gibberish explaining why the reader is too dumb to recognize a modern masterpiece when they see it, a phenomenon that occurred with great frequency as the latter half of the late and now unlamented twentieth century slid its way towards a long overdue retirement. So much modern artistic criticism is written in Gibberish nowadays that it is difficult at times to tell the difference between a paean to the genius of Jackson Pollock or Andy Warhol and the New York City regulations regarding alternative side of the street parking during a prospective snow emergency. The trick of distinguishing between the two seems to be that the latter tends to be a bit more abtruse than the former and comes with a large number of meter maids willing to ticket you for your inability to speak Gibberish well.
What is odd in all of this is that the Gibbers themselves have little use for law, the arts, or the academy. Natural anarchists, the Gibbers’ own revolutionary period began and ended when they set fire to their country’s only opera house as a wandering troupe of Wagnerians rehearsed Die Gotterdammerung while listening to the Beatles’ White Album inside. No one is quite sure whether it was Wagner or the Beatles that the revolutionaries objected to, but the troupe did escape from the fire unscathed and with the record unscratched. The record player, on the other hand, was a total write off. When asked about the cause of this terroristic action, one revolutionary told the press that the music sounded too much like the death scream of the yellowfin tuna for your average Gibber to bear, an excellent answer until one realizes that Gibbers live nowhere near the sea and so have no idea what sounds a yellowfin tuna chooses to make in extremis or whether they make any sounds at all beyond those necessary to give the fishermen the middle fin, but then no one ever said that the Gibbers were an especially bright group of people.
To return to the subject, and yes, I think it’s about time too, nowhere is the relationship between Gibberish and its devotees more intense than in the case of the modern academy. Your average professor will write more Gibberish in a week than your average literate Gibber, assuming you could find such a rara avis, will write in twenty years. The Gibbers banned compulsory education after particularly acrimonious teachers’ strike in 1523 and now educate their children at home. Since most Gibber families are dumber than rocks, it should come as no surprise to anyone that the general level of educational achievement amongst Gibbers tends to be on the low side; they are, however, excellent at sharpening scissors, which is the national sport as well as their country’s leading export. Given this, it is something peculiar that academics find Gibberish so attractive. There are many explanations, but I think the most persuasive one is found in Gibberish’s ability to convey the most complex and subtly nuanced shades of meaning in more than a few words, something that plain English is incapable of.
Still, even with the language’s popularity amongst the elites, it is a shame that more people do not take the opportunity to learn the language. It is among the most beautiful of the unnecessarily polysyllabic tongues and it is among, or so I have heard, the easier foreign languages for an American to learn. I turn to it whenever my decades long pursuit of Spanish frustrates me to the breaking point. My attempts to learn Spanish have been an exercise in linguistic futility, leaving me with little more than the ability to order two beers and ask where the men’s room is. Important things to know, to be sure, but not something that will allow me to read Don Quixote in the original or impress a date with a well-chosen line from Garcia Lorca. Spanish, Polish, Danish, Yiddish, Swedish, Gibberish, Finnish already, they are all mysteries to me, I fear.
test test….I guess it works.
john g
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!
:-)
Nice Akaky
“whatever the nickname the name displayed is the username”
wrong.
okay, updated, testing for website link..
emcd is erica mcdonald
“arrived, along with a new 18-50 2.8 Sigma for my Rebel”
Gordon, you have bought a lens similar to my ALL-TIME fav!!! Except for one day of photos taken at an outdoor ice skating rink in December 2007, my 17-50mm f/2.8 Tamron lens has remained affixed to my camera since I bought both in October 2007. Every photo in “Falling Into Place,” the self portrait book project that DAH has so faithfully mentored me on, was taken with this lens, usually at the 17mm setting. I love this lens, especially in low light conditions. Can’t wait to hear how you like it. Post some links, OK?
Patricia
Ok, I’m in.
Damn, Now I feel like orginal BURNIAN.
Or like a last one from bank robbery team who get in.
:)
patricia. I am usually a bit of a lens snob (more in a minute),but having seen the wonderful use you have put your tamron to in your work i may relent a bit.
But heres why.
50mm canon L …dropped from a significant height, entire front has fallen off…still works perfectly.
24mm canon L …banged into a door frame…af/mf switch pinged off…still works perfectly.
50mm leica R …dropped twice from height, two monsoons….slight tight spot on focus ring.[20 yrs old]
135mm leica R …hurled across room when strap caught on swivel chair…slight tight spot.[25 yrs old]
crappy tamron zoom…In the same country as a bit of itinerent moisture for 3 seconds…DEAD.
Sigma zoom …..butterfly farted four blocks away….DEAD.
canon 50mm budget….someone swore in the next room..autofocus died.
I kid you not :)
John
:)
emcd….sounds like a derivation of Einstein’s theory…. :)
and erica, partly on your urging (“you should shoot film for a while – tri-x”) I just traveled back in time and bought a copy of the very first 35mm camera I owned….a Pentax K1000 w/ a 50mm 1:2 lens.
It even has the cool wide hippy multicolored strap like I had. I hope it works!
a.
Anton, so a poster can create an unlimited number of nicknames in the control panel and change them at will? That should make moderating interesting.
Try to get into the proper spirit, Jim.
John G, I’ve heard the same thing from other photogs about the difference between a Canon and a Tamron lens but so far so good for me…and I’ve dropped my camera several times in the 20+ months I’ve had the Tamron lens on it. Besides the difference in price is nothing to sneeze at. And for me there’s one more important consideration–the Tamron is WAY lighter/less bulky than the Canon. With hands like mine–small & less than able–that counts for a lot!
Patricia
P.S. Thanks for the kind words about my work. Coming from you, John, that means a lot ;=)
123 prova
John; Remind me to never loan you a lens!!! :-))
Hopefully this new system will sort out many of the problems, a great idea!
It’s funny how things can change in a day….
Yesterday; cold, grey & windy; we’re in the middle of winter here in NZ. Had checked the bank account, nervously worried about whether there would be enough to get through another month. The phone rang just as I arrived back home; our local council wanting a job done that night, phew!
This morning; all bills sorted for another month thanks to that unexpected job, the sun is shining, the sky is blue with not a cloud to be seen. There’s a heavy thick white frost on the ground and from my front door I can see our mountain (only 20kms away and a near perfect replica of Mt Fuji) is half covered with snow and looking stunning. In other words a stunning frosty day!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Taranaki/Egmont
Do I ever regret leaving a safe, pretty well paid supermarket job to go freelance? Sometimes I doubt myself when things get really bad, but overall; a resounding no!
So, how many other freelancers go through the same monthly roller coaster? And do you ever wish you were doing something else?
Cheers everyone
hope the new approach works…
the atmosphere in here can be pretty intimidating to newer, less confident folks (well, it is to me at any rate). fingers crossed that there will be less bitching from now on
i follow Burn avidly but rarely bother to comment because of all the willy waving. but I’ve learned heaps and my mind is constantly being opened to what’s possible in photography, so a BIG thank to DAH, Anton and everyone else who’s involved in the background
onwards and upwards
The eagle has landed.
I prefer the log in sistem…
I also rarely comment, especially pictures cause I always feel: who I am to critic someone else work?
But I respect who critic with his real name and his website linked. For es Jim Powers… many times I felt like to say to him: “are you really sure your work is better than the one you are tring to kill” or even “are you crazy?” but I still respect him cause he does everything with his name so he accept critic back but sorry I will never answer to anonimous cause IMO if someone hide his identity is becouse he is the firt who is not convinced that his words are a good contribute :-/
Finally got logged in. . .
DAH: I ma laughing a bit. You guys at Magnum are ruthless. Much respect. Absolutely the highest levels! Sobol stays a nominee, Anderson stays an associate and no new nominees are chosen! Amazing! I mean this is a testament to how hard it is to become a Magnum member. The fact that people like you and Bendiksen sail through in 4 years, Koudelka I believe in 3 years is just outstanding. I am not envious nor jealous nor do I look upon Magnum photographers as Gods, but I guess I do appreciate the level that you members are working at and how hard it would be to become one. Sobol is working at an inordinately high level. . . I guess you basically have to be a genius with a camera to be a Magnum member. Somehow I also see other members whose work doesn’t compare to the originality of those mentioned above, but I guess they became members when there was less competition and when the classic b&w reportage style was what was hot. These days it seems it really would take overwhelming originality to become a member.
Testing… 1, 2, 3…
First things first, big thank you to Anton and David for all their hard work making and updating burn on a daily basis…
David you are more then welcome to give your feedback the way you feel is better, here or privately it will be greatly appreciated.
Brian you can check my website to see some of my work, obviously any feedback will be most welcomed.
Many cheers to all,
Armando
Just a test to see if changing my nickname/display name as fields in my profile change my display name here…
good light, all!
a.
So, those concerned about being able to change your display name….Anton knows what he’s doing. :)
As if there was ever any doubt!
Interesting.
That’s better. If you post under a nickname, it says comment awaiting moderation. More work for the moderator, but effective.
jim
“that’s better”? nothing has changed in the system. including you being dismissive towards me.
Interesting – it didn’t do that for me, Jim…just posted my comment with my user name.
Ok, enough techno-nutz-and-boltz….who got good shots today?
:)
ALL –
“awaiting moderation” can happen for a number of reasons… do not worry, spam filters are very high-strung…
also, “awaiting moderation” will also ALWAYS happen for “first posters”. Every commenter must have a previously approved comment.
just so you all know!
cheers
Give us a soundtrack for the evening, anton!
Civi, where are you…and where oh where is our resident poetress gracy?
Anton, when I posted using a nickname, it didn’t post, but it said comment awaiting moderation. I assume had the moderator approved it, it would have gone to the forum with the nickname. Just kind of interesting.
Testing with my real name…
Right! this looks more like it…
andrew! ALL! JIM!
i’ve posted this before… but here it is again!!! if this does not bring everyone into the highest spirits, then what does….
ENJOY
Andrew B ” who got good shots today?”…….maybe. Got 12 rolls back from glastonbury shoot. First look through killed all but fifty. Probably kill another 20-30 next time through, then print the rest up and see how they feel. If i get ten i like I will be more than happy. Also got a little one off commission to shoot the pianos that are turning up around west london. Shot some nice little portraits there today.
Did a studio shoot for an album cover yesterday…All day, maybe maybe 2 shots. Last 2 shoots have been rejected so its last ditch time. Realized I dont enjoy studio work that much any more.
john.
AND THIS ONE…. just watch them looking for an impromptu location in a bar… makes me smile…. and what a song…
andrew b excellent – now get a 28 as well :)
good shots – i hope so..realized that the exact physical boundaries of the neighborhood for my piece are in contention and may be wider by 2 or 3 blocks than I had previously allowed..so i shot in some new territory today. after working in a tight area for so long, 2 or 3 blocks is a whole new world..
@JohnGladdy
“Also got a little one off commission to shoot the pianos that are turning up around west london.”
Sounds like there’s a story behind that one!
I took maybe 80 shots last evening at the barn when the light was good….I think I maybe got two or three decent portraits….but the light was so lovely made me want to keep more….
Ok so now I’m pomara, I used to be Paul O’Mara but that’s ok. David, a lot has happened since I looked here at 6:30am. Folks are comin’ out of the woods. This is just great. Thanks for all of this +energy. Please let me know how I can help. I sent you messages about donating and have not gotten a response. Most interesting is that I would like you to look at my photoblogpersonalproject. I am Irish and shameless to I hope all will enjoy the pics. http://twoeightproject.wordpress.com . I hope that Magnet takes a straight shot to the sun!
ACMA I’m back. I feel the sun Burnin’ the left side of my face!
@emcd
Hmm….I will look, but not sure how easy it will be to find a Pentax bayonet mount 28….if anyone has suggestions please let me know.
but, it is film! and fun because it’s the camera I learned on, my first “real” camera – completely manual, the only advantage is a built-in light meter….so it should be fun.
Perhaps we can go offline for some more technical discussions…..it’s been long long long time for me since I shot film, and I never did b&w, always kodachrome or ectachrome….
in the meantime, july 4th is almost here ….I anticipate having fun and shooting at a few festivals and outdoor live music venues….
paul, you can change yoru display name if you want…..but pomara is kind of fun to say (although it is slightly remniscient of some type of sandwich)
Pity, no UFOs no mo? Are we at least going to have RUFOs, that is Registered UFOs?
David, Anton – seriously, I hope this works cause it may not. You both know that this is just a little step in making things a bit more difficult for drive-by-shooters. There are Determined UFOs that will register.
What about Multiple Personality/Same IP Disorder UFOs?
:) cheers all
Folks, emcd, pomara
In your profile page https://www.burnmagazine.org/wp-admin/profile.php set your name/last name as you want and then under Display name publicly as select that to be displayed instead of the user name you chose for the login.
Haik
these last few days i found myself on bended knee
before the great monoliths of Bryce Canyon
hoodoos of two hundred million years old
formed by gentle winds and perhaps some desert ocean waves
which now whisper in my ear…
(the voices that pranced on early morning light said:)
would you really think we, Wind-weakling, Water-yielding
would form such beauty as this?
all strength, chest-puffed these great monoliths,
time, oh yes, time of wind and water whispering
have brought these enormous monoliths on their own knees
(FOR YOU: andrew b, for your kindness of looking for me,
and for the rest of you who feel naught for hopeless causes,
some things are not what they seem.)
Patricia, John
Here are a few snaps with the new Sigma. http://www.pbase.com/glafleur/18-50_28_sigma
Sorry for the “gear” talk boys and girls.
But since you asked Patricia, here ya are.
John, I like the old stuff too, I once dropped my 17mm pentax fisheye down a cliff at least 30 feet, boing boing boing and it stopped about a food from salt water. Amazingly the glass was unscathed and after a couple of whacks with a blunt instrument, the focusing ring turned again.
I’ve never had good luck with third party lenses. Twenty five years ago the Sigmas I tried sucked. However, based on test reports I decided to give them another chance. So far so good, the focus is right on, and it is very sharp. It is mostly the size and weight. I’m an old wimpy guy with serious spinal issues. This lens is consdiderably lighter than the Canon equivelent, and as a bonus, less than half the price.
This lens will replace my 18-55 IS kit lens, which is very sharp but at f5.6 at the long end, just too slow.
Cheers everyone. Go make some photographs of your life.
GORDON
Right on target, man! Sharp as a tack, good DOF, excellent color. So happy it’s working for you…
Patricia
Patricia,
I use a Tamron lens, too. Ive used it for about 4 years. I have never had any problems with it.
@ curly-kins Gracie
thank you….in your words I was there, if for but a moment….
DAH
your fear of being arrested again might have kept you away
——————————————————-
London was just abit far, david. I did not quite get arrested though, really, instead I was worried they would call my 86 YO Mom, and just freak her out. Same reason why I did not call her to warn her some police might call. Remember, I had absolutely no passport or ID on me…
Anyway, I almost got arrested again at the Gay pride this past week-end, you may have missed that post.
No grants, or awards but I am starting to build some kind of a resume… :-))))
Hi Anton.
really enjoyed, felt happy, to see and listen to those guys wander around and be there in Beirut. Beautiful.
Glad the problem of underminers has been sorted.
Well done as usual BURN.
Must admit, received the most obscure password I’ve ever had. Looks like some ancient script.
Peter, my password was bizarre too so I changed it on my profile page. Good thing I could as I would NEVER have remembered the one I was given!
Patricia
Patricia;
Are you still shooting for your book, or are you solely at the editing stage now?
Ross, I’m at the rewriting-my-text stage. I think I’m done taking photos, but I thought that before the LOOK3 workshop with DAH and Jim Nachtwey and they got three more “keepers” out of me that week. I still feel good about the edit/sequencing DAH and I came up with in NYC last April.
Regarding the text, a wonderful fellow photographer named Carl Bowen, who heard me speak about my project in Gene Richards’ workshop, has offered to come for an overnight visit from Washington, DC where he lives to “interview” me here in Detroit. He’s coming next Monday. I will digitally record our conversations, have them transcribed and then use that as a basis for my text. Gene Richards has offered to mentor me on the text which he believes must be as personal and intimate as my photos; my original text was not. And Gene also encouraged me to let the photos tell the story, eliminate the captions, and then place my text at the end of tthe book. That feels right to me.
I am in awe of how people like DAH, Carl and Gene are so committed to this book-in-the making. It really helps not to feel alone at this stage of the game. We’re looking towards my presenting the “second edition” of my Falling Into Place Blurb book to Aperture publishing house in September. I’m also exploring possible funding/presale opportunities.
As David warned early on, this book business takes lots of fortitude and perseverance. I’ll tell you, it wouldn’t be happening without his help. He’s right there beside me every step of the way. This man is a Mentor with a capital “M.”
Thanks for asking about my book, Ross. From the beginning (June 11, 2008) I have really felt supported by our community here, and for that I am deeply grateful. I’ll keep you posted as things progress.
Patricia
Patricia;
Great stuff, I’m sure the text is going to be a whole new kettle of fish to deal with! However I’m sure it will all come to fruition and you definately have the “fortitude and perseverance”!!
Cheers
Patricia;
As an aside; I find that when you’re writing something personal sometimes it works just to write something, anything. Don’t worry about typo’s etc, just write, let it flow and you’ll find you come up with an entire new train of thought/thoughts because you’re not really trying….
That is exactly what I’m doing with my text for my youth project. I decided to write about what my thoughts were at that age (mid-late teens). After a few hours of writing I stop to read what I’ve written and it’s always evolved into areas I never dreamed of… Cheap therapy maybe :-))
It’s different from my usual articles because most of them are interviews and all you basically need to do is re-word, change grammar etc.
It’s also handy to have a note-taker in the car, I’m amazed how often a long drive can liberate the mind…
Cheers
test to see if website comes up….
test, again….my last comment went into spam, because i’d added my lightstalker page
error, you just are beyond………http://www.etrouko.com.au/omel.htm
PAUL….
i am so sorry if i have missed your e-mails…i simply cannot catch up with e-mail….many thanks for your offer of help….i need it…in any case, i will write you soonest to see what makes the most sense for both of us…
HAIK…
i realize this new registration will not stop the really dedicated UFO’s…and two of our most friendly and welcomed UFO’s, Civilian and Stoop will have no problem continuing their positive contributions here…
DAVIN…
your evaluation is right on….we absolutely do not want to be “ruthless” , but we have survived all these 63 years by being very realistic….at some point during this meeting in London i looked around the room at each member…i cannot imagine a more clear cut group of individuals…”group of individuals” sounds like a contradiction, but in fact that is exactly what Magnum is…no two photographers with the same personality or dress or speech or work or anything alike..i often recommend to young photographers that i think it would be wise if a few more cooperatives were to take root…Magnum can never be but so big…we have had to grow just a bit in the last few years for obvious reasons…older members were dying or just not interested in chasing the Taliban in Afghanistan, so we needed to take in quite a few new members in the last 5 years…but we certainly did not need to this year….we are maxed out in size….and even in this year of extreme financial stress, we came out of the meeting with the same survival mentality that has allowed us our place in the history of photography…
even if the financial crises becomes worse, we will always have one very important thing….a priceless “object” that does indeed have real monetary value…our archive…the archive is EVERYTHING…i cannot stress enough to you and to your colleagues the importance of your archive..if you protect and cherish your archive, it will serve you well in the long run no matter what happens otherwise…and i do not know exactly what the figures would be , but my guess is that a solid 80% of the work in the Magnum archive was done as personal projects….any young photographer should definitely take note…and take heart….
cheers, david
all seems to work ok loggins not a drama ,,,,,,,,etc as long as messina doesn’t know
EVA…
yes, we need to do this….we just have not done it yet….Anton and i are just so busy as it is, we just have not had the time….but, i too would see this as a valuable tool….
MARCIN…
you are THE original Burnian…well, actually both you and Rafal i think…Herve came in early..Bob Black too….was that three years ago or four years ago??? hmmmmmm
PATRICIA…
you make it easy my dear…you listen…you work hard….you do not become distracted….you stay on my case!!! your book will be a classic….we are almost there….
David
I can’t even remember how long ago it was! :)
But it was almost three i think.
Damn and I am still in the same place in photography. Nothing was change.
BTW, I was sure there will be no new niminees in this year.
haik, david, –
remember, there are TWO things that changed here yesterday…
one is that you have to register with a real email address to be able to comment
two is that, if you’re new, your very first comment must be moderated by BURN
the combination of these two rules does the trick.
being anonymous or not, is actually not the issue here… because there is simply no practical way for any site to stop anonymity…
it’s more about “behaving” than anything else…. well-behaved and intelligent, i like…
if you’re anonymous or not, i basically don’t care…. others will apply a “weight” to your arguments by how well you present them; and sometimes you’re backed up by a link to something relevant…
cheers
anton
eva…
sometimes i even surprise myself…. did you see the search bar i added yesterday literally less than 5 minutes after you asked for it?
… dang, sometimes i really do surprise myself :-)))
anton
HA! cool, thanks anton, very helpful.. only saw it now!
many thanks to david too, for answering!
IMANTS…
both Anton and i are totally confused about which essay of yours we will publish on Burn….i saw one thing, Anton saw another, and you submitted finally something else….please clarify…
DAH..
not sure how long everyone has been around roadtrips, but yesterday was trying to figure out if you had photographed at a funeral for Living Proof (something just happened here relevant to my project and I am wondering about the use of images from someone’s loss) , and was looking through the archives and saw this interchange between you and martin:
;)
Posted by: martin | March 23, 2007 at 03:13 AM
martin…
sorry, i do not understand what ;) means????
Posted by: David | March 23, 2007 at 06:03 AM
it’s happy face. :) ;)
I thought it’s international sign.
it’s means that I like this text.
but i have nathing to say more this time.
its pleasure to read your posts.
;)
it’s means quick: good moring i like this post.
ha,ha,ha…(laugh). I’m realy difficult blogman.
I hope that you do not lose patience.
:)
Martin
Posted by: martin | March 23, 2007 at 06:27 AM
(meaning..even though that was just 2 years ago, we have come along way from the time when you didn’t know a smiley face in blogland)
:)
oh and andrew b..there must be someone here better for tech talk than me!
CAN I SAY I LOVE YOU ALLLL?
P.S Keep rolling
I will be back
with all my respect
Your welcomed UFO :))))
Damnit I am addicted…to BURN
My mind is awaiting moderation…
BURN me photographers !!!
BURN me
For me, it was 2 years ago, this month. I had been reading the site for a while ( I hear you: what, Herve a reader!!!). My first question to David: His favorite meal. And you answer, David, was?….
Yep, a total letdown (for the questionner): Mom’s apple pie.
For some reason, after that, I kept coming back… Sycophantastically!
:-))))
I can’t find my first comment on Raod trips but It was at the beggining of February 2007.
ARMANDO…
i will carefully review your work tomorrow and have it for you right here if that is what you still want…….you are up for an honest appraisal, right??? i will base this review on your website unless you tell me otherwise….
CIVILIAN…
and we are addicted to you!!!
ERICA…
yes, pretty funny….i had no clue…i am still pretty clueless on the computer front..:)
ANTON…
hey amigo, thanks for the search bar….i was thinking that was going to be so complicated…as you well know and as i just said to Erica, i am pretty clueless on the computer front!!
My two cents…
Mr.DAH I am waiting for your book…:)
we know you travel a lot …oime…but how can you keep up with jet lag and all the moving around the Universe!???!!
You are good, mate…One of a kind…(to be perceived as a compliment:))
To OUR PATRICIA,
“Our greatest glory is not in never falling but in rising every time we fall”
Confucius (China’s most famous teacher, philosopher, and political theorist, 551-479 BC)
Your tedious Civilian
To all the BURNIANS,
good energy …cause the Universe keep smiling back to you!!!
CAN you feel it?
P.S Lassal, AndrewB…My Gracie,KATIE THE STREET FIGHTER ( I miss you)..DavidB,Paul O’Mara…
and all of you…I am out of MB credit …STAY TUNED !
Anton…can I say I LOVE YOU?
Forever yours…keep shooting
Dear luzz biteyear,
You missed nothing…
I am PANOS twin brother…:))))
I wish…Funniest ever…
WHAT NOT TO LOVE!!!
NOW back to our regular programme
Hi David:
Here is ok by me… Just shot!
If it isn’t to much trouble I also would like you to go through my EPF submission – Depressive Landscapes – as it is the work I’m trying to put together in book form and maybe as an exhibition later this year…
Many thanks in advance.
Cheers,
Armando
Now that I’m logged in could someone please explain how/where to set a link to my name?
Thanks.
nevermind…I see.
ERICA;
But it was you who convinced me that I must shoot some b&w film as I try and grow – surely you will have the reason in mind….and the tech talk I mean is pretty simple…like….what film? can I push film if I only have access to “commercial” developers? Does it matter?
:)
Original Burnian/Road Trippers?? Hey… I think I was here before most!
Just sayin’. ;^}
fake photojournalism wins.
interesting story
http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/blog_index.html
Michael K, I hear you…
MICHAEL K, AKAKY and CATHY SCHOLL were among the first road trippers..
I looked for our first post (all on the same day) in the archives but couldn’t find it.
I believe the post was titled “A question.”
April 2007?
Previous to us the original commenters were Lance, Lee and Glenn. Maybe also Marcin posting as Martin?
Yes, that sounds about right Cathy. How goes it, by the way? Hope all is good in your world.
Peace.
Oh Civi, please don’t remind me of my past unkindnesses ;=(
All’s forgiven I hope?
xxooo
Patricia
andrew b
just stick with tri x 400 and rate it at 400 and start there..
andrew – sorry – some of the reasons for film..not being able to see what you shot creates a different relationship to the next frames you shoot and the how/why/where you pull this decision from, it’s beautiful but takes color out of the equation, you will learn to see in tones and shapes and forms and light, and also w/o color you will see more readily where your images fail and where they succeed..that’s all I have time for, maybe you should look into that workshop with DAH – did you discuss it yet?
at some point Andrew Sullivan and I may offer workshops together, shooting and/or editing, but that’s down the road a bit..at least through Sept. I need to focus on the book project..
hope that helps
DAH: I only meant ruthless in the way that Magnum looks at work and weeds out those with even the slightest weaknesses. Of course you guys are not cruel, only honest, so maybe ruthless is not quite the right term. . .
Yes, there need to be more more cooperatives formed. I have fully moved here to Bucharest, Romania just now and at the moment am operating solo, it’s just me, my studio apartment, a laptop and a couple of cameras. Although I am distributed by Anzenberger in Vienna I am in great need of a photo community in the flesh and am trying to figure out how I will do this since I have chosen to isolate myself way over here in the East.
Cathy, It was March 2007. Michael K first posted on the 18th or 19th under A question, and you and I first posted on the 20th.
erica
thanks :) And yes, I am going to do a workshop (there is always still that self doubt of really being ready, but..) as soon as there is one that fits logistically I’m going to.
And I think I’ve told you before you should do workshops :)
All:
…lots of festivities planned around here this weekend…hope everyone has a safe and happy 4th (and good shooting, of course).
a.
Hi
both Anton and i are totally confused about which essay of yours we will publish on Burn….i saw one thing, Anton saw another, and you submitted finally something else….please clarify……….it’s always been the one I sent in , there are others on the site but I only sent one in via http://FTP…….Imants
IMANTS…
thanks…got it
DAVIN…
please stay in touch with me on this one…..have you looked at the VII network program?? and of course stick with us here at Burn…things rolling…who knows how it will all shake down….in any case, i always enjoy your writing and your work…
ERICA…
yes, you and Andrew would make a terrific team….
ahhhh film….yes, for me it is not a technical issue…digi is probably now “better” than film…but, yes not seeing what you are doing instantly is an amazing advantage…with digi you take one step forward and then two back…you are in the darkroom when you should be shooting…..with film you have no choice but to keep moving forward..searching searching…..elusive….beautiful……
Erica;
How about shooting with the lcd off? I do it a lot now, deliberately so I can’t look at it, so it’s a little bit like using film (sort of!!). I recently shot a young band warming in the stair well at the venue and not having the lcd going was liberating!!!
As for workshops,,they’re even more expensive to get to from the southern hemisphere… I did a quick add up the other to work out how much it would cost to get to the US for a workshop and it came out at around NZ$8,000. The joys of having a weak NZ dollar!
Cheers everyone
DAH
well put..and now that the rain has stopped for a moment, I will head out again in search of the elusive..the only thing I am wondering at this moment (exhausted, but still searching) is if the not knowing adds to some of the obsessive need to keep at the hunt. any sane person (not that there are many in this field) when fatigued and knowing they had been working to their limit would ease up until they felt the energy lift again, but maybe the not knowing what is inside all the rolls makes me keep pushing. I sort of wish my film person would come home already. For awhile (few weeks) is was great fun not knowing. People who stockpile confuse me..it is not of my nature. I usually like to shoot 4 or 5 rolls and see where I am, then decide how to proceed..
ok, over and out
Anyone ever been to a Rainbow Gathering?
It’s here in New Mexico this year.
I’m trying to get there tomorrow.
Not sure how “photographer friendly” they are there but I guess I’ll find out.
DAH,
I don’t know if I agree with this..
“ahhhh film….yes, for me it is not a technical issue…digi is probably now “better” than film…but, yes not seeing what you are doing instantly is an amazing advantage…with digi you take one step forward and then two back…you are in the darkroom when you should be shooting….”
I get what you say, but when I shot film I spent a lot more time in front of the computer (scanning) then with digital. The whole film process is much more time consuming with processing, scanning, labs etc. Of course it depends, you being at Magnum and not being a poor young photograher probably get a lot of help with scanning, processing, archiving and don’t have to deal with the logistical madness..
BTW. Did you get my e-mail?
Cheers
Or you could practice a little self restraint and just turn off your LCD screen. ;^}
MARTIN BRINK…
i think we all have our own opinions on this and surely there is no right or wrong to it…
yes, film IS more time consuming overall…what i was referring to was during the actual act of shooting itself….the constant referral to what was just done…looking at the screen instead of taking a step forward or really concentrating on the subject……the instant gratification of digi can be a slippery slope…but, i do shoot digi of course…Living Proof was digital….i will be shooting digital later this afternoon…
being in Magnum or not being in Magnum has nothing to do with it…remember please i was not born with Magnum stamped on my forehead….when i was a poor young photographer i shot film…now that i am a poor a bit older photographer i still shoot film….i am in the process of building a darkroom at my new old house…..yes, it will be more time consuming and more expensive as well….but, i love hand made objects…prints…books….guitars….i do not need lots of anything…a few very special objects des arts is what i love…
MICHAEL…
that is exactly what i do…i try to get my students to do the same…
cheers, david
CATHY…
my guess is that this will be the most photographer friendly environment of all time
ERICA..
“the obsessive need to keep at the hunt”….yes, this is it of course….the pinnacle…the zone…the very best thing about life itself……
DAH,
Absolutely agree. I prefer shooting film, but not what happens after.
I didn’t mean that Magnum has anything to do with film preference or not.
Cheers
David,
I hope youre right…since almost getting thrown in jail at the rodeo last week, I’d like a little less stress with my photography!
I had a question about Susan Meiselas over at Women with Cameras…
also sent you an email at your AOL address.
CATHY…
will check my email and your question over at Women with Cameras…
DAH. the film thing is what I am doing with the 2.8 project. Now here’s the dirty little secret. I have my film processed at Wally-mart and have them put it on disc.
Look, I’ve been around the block and you’ve done it twice, assuming that you are older. I don’t want to get back to mixing D-76 so this is a great way to revisit film without the hassle. When I’m playing with the project, it’s amazing how I’m re-energized by the process. I have to load film, remember to tighten the roll. THEN- Go drop off film and wait… an hour! Those 24 frames have become precious to me.
My M-2 has gone back to work. Oh, tell the folks in the photo center not to cut the negs, they just don’t get it. The first time I dropped film off I said “could you process this and put it on disc?” The answer: ” I can’t put it on a disc but I can put it on a CD”. What’s not to like about this. All of the risk of processing, just like the “old days”!!!
The recipe is BW400CN and a trip to the Wal-mart film center.
As our beloved CIVI says– VIVA Silver Halide!
Hey David… did you happen to see my comment about trying to do a Kodachrome thing with Burn? Have no idea if it would be possible to round up any final rolls and do something like McCurry’s doing… but might be cool.
“Or you could practice a little self restraint and just turn off your LCD screen.”
Shooting film and shooting digital is a vastly different ball of wax. (I’m excellent at stating the obvious}
Chimping every shot is a nasty habit which does interupt the creative flow, but the ability to use the display to confirm lighting and exposure is miraculous. I do stuff with digital that I would never have risked with film. When you gotta come back with the goods, you can’t afford to use risky lighting etc. Digital is having the polaroid back permanently available. I make way better photographs with digital than I ever did with film.
I love love love digital, though I never thought you would hear me say it. I do not miss film, in any way. I do however miss the film cameras, and their unique flavour. I still have my RZ system waiting for a tech leap which will make a full frame 6×7 back available for less than the cost of a new car. And I loved my Leicas, but cannot justify the cost of an m8.
It is a new era and a very exciting time. Digital is the re-invention of photography.
The zone..tho exhausted when I walked out of the house, was absorbed and exhilerated within minutes..it’s sort of magic! And I so love that you never know what will happen…was caught in a downpour and couldn’t have been happier.
cathy–
the proper protocol at Rainbow is to ask.
i’ve been eight times. sadly, not going this year.
it was and is still my only real-life experience of utopia
and all that is possible if we but understand that we are truly
brothers and sisters and take care of each other as such.
it peaks on the 4th – “Interdependence Day”.
that is THE day to be there.
welcome home,
katia
Gordon, I felt that way too. When I’m out making a buck, I’m all over digital. It pays the mortgage and I think the process has made me a better shooter, but there is just something missing. The risk of not knowing the outcome was exciting with film.
Perhaps the confidence factor rose with film when you really “got it” but there was always something out there that said don’t count your chickens before you picked up your shoot. The mistakes made me better I think.
Digital is easy because I worked so hard to get it right with film. Now that technology has made shooting so easy, I guess you really have to be lazy to screw up a file. Digital has give us such a slop factor on exposure and color balance doesn’t matter if you don’t want to go there that getting things “right” is just too easy.
Now the good side of digital. I can make things the way I intend them to be. I now take my risks in Lightroom rather than at exposure. I know the potential of an image because I know what I can do when I process the image. But I’ll always keep a roll of film around just in case…
David
Ive been lurking around since the Roadtrips days and just havent commented much until now. I am really excited to see what Burn has in store for the future. I have met you many times and have shown you work before. I have submitted some work to bBurn. Dont know if youve seen it but would love to hear feedback if you have any time. I know you are busy. Anyways, good luck with everything here and cheers to everyone submitting and commenting and making everything so lively.
great attitude Kenneth..:)))))
michael kircher ,
hell yeahh u are one of the ORIGINAL roadtrippers….
way before me, at least..:))))))))))
Hey Paul
I can’t agree that digital is “way too easy”. Colour negative film is way too easy. You can over-expose 5 stops and not know the difference if a lab did all your printing. There are three mis-conceptions about digital;, it is easier (not) it is cheaper (you are joking) and it is faster (how much time are you spending in front of a computer screen). In the end however, it gives us the control we only used to joke about, (film sharpeners and film stretchers), elastic ISO, unbelievable low light capability, etc etc.
You still want surprises? put duct tape over your display and put the card away for a week before you look at it. but why would you want to do that? The nostalgia about film is just that, all nostalgia, ….and fear by those who have not embraced digital. It’s a big learning curve but there is just no comparison, and for me no going back.
Katia,
Sorry you won’t be there. Sure would be a fun place to meet you! Maybe another year.
Thanks for your insight…I can feel the peace you are describing thru your words.
Welcome home to you too.
Gordon;
Digital is definately cheaper for me. It would cost me a fortune to shoot film in the dark music venues I now shoot in. However, having shot for years with slide film (I hardly ever used negative except for B&W)it has given you shooting discipline.
I shoot way more than I would with film, but if I’m experimenting then I’m experimenting with a purpose in mind not just hit and hope… The owner of one of the libraries I shoot for calls the hit and hope technique “digital diarrhoea”!!!
It also means that I can shoot work for my personal project, it isn’t bringing in any money so I work it in with magazine work & have to be careful how much time and money I spend on it. I can easily remember the days when I would always seem to have a dozen rolls of film in the drawer waiting until I had enough spare cash to get them processed.
GORDON.
Dont get why you praise certian aspects about colour neg and point out numerous detrements of digital, then say, those who fear converting to digital are caught by nostalgia. mmm? scratch my head I do
Peter
I pointed out mis-conceptions, not detriments. It is all about quality, control, and a host of other benefits. Yes, it’s harder, not cheaper, and not faster. Sorta like large format. However the benefits are enormous. It is an exquisite technology.
I discovered photography (not mine, all of P.) because of digital. That’s the greatness of it.
The same thing happened with music. Composers were discovered, re-discovered, sounds and interpreters too. By the age of 40, I had 50 LPs of classical music , maybe a hundred lousy tapes picked off the radio or from a friend’s turntable. 10 years on, and I had about 2500 classical cds, all bought used on the cheap, with sound constantly immaculate.
Incidentally, I rarely look at my LCD (unless shooting is leisurely), but I see a lot of these guys with their press pass, a huge pro camera on each shoulder, and they look at it after each shot. Of course, they need the “good enough” shots, and here, we learnt from DAH that good enough is..well, not good enough! :-)
for that special image that will resonate beyond its pixels or its press time, It’s hard to tell if you got something, looking at that 3 inches screen. You think you did, and it’s DOS (dead on screen) back home. I dunno, to me, to end up creating something is alway elusive, dig or not.
im fucked forever……….. ( in your mind )
From what I understand, there are pro’s and con’s to both digital and analoge. archiving and transport is obviously a big pro for digital. technically speaking i understand there are differences between the two. And I feel, for me, having to conserve myself as far as clicking off frames, sometimes i feel it works for me. of course being able to review one’s work immediately can be extremely helpful, but i’d argue, not always.
I guess its the same with most things, there are different qualities and one has to work out what qualities they prefer.
ok…… this is CRAZYYYYYYYYYYYY!
I JUST FOUND MYSELF ( in utube) PERFORMING IN GREECE 20 YEARS AGO…………WITH my punk band , the “CAVEMEN DANCE”
weiiiiiiiiiird!…….. my song………..
IM SINGING (guy with the jacket to the right)…..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Facmq0_lt4k&feature=related
( please feel free to laugh)……:)))))
Film, digital debate.
Just my opinion
Film:
loads of extra kit (filters etc),problems with xray at airports,bags full of film on long assignments,Keeping film cool, keeping track labelling film,having to carry polaroid/polaroidbacks, gaps in shooting while changing canisters, over shooting because of brackeing, overshooting because you didn’t know what you had, at the same time being cautious because of the cost of film and process (makes you more selective in what you shoot,doing clip tests, keeping track of clip tests, loads of visits to lab to view/adjust processing, often allow pause for thought when waiting for a polaroids, the pleasure of seeing those golden jewels for the first time on the lightbox, the texture of film, the ease of picking up a sheet of transparency and holding it up t the window……
Digital:
less kit,high quality,expensive kit,you can instantly see yo have it in the bag,don’t have to worry about cost of film process or running out of film o a job,massive latitude in post processing,too much time infront of the computer,overshoot because you can, sloopy shooting (fix it in post attitude), on the flip side knowing what you can do in post and adjusting your shooting style to that, hard drive space.
Both systems have their benefits. I still shoot film when I have the time and budget, mainly for large landscape fine art pics.
About zoneing in when shooting, it takes me a little while to focus in on a project and flip into the thought process of what i am trying to achive but once I am there I am there, its a sort of clarity through the fug.
cheers all
Ian
….. actually it was 22 years ago……..( im 41 now )……
but please………pretty please NOTICE MY PHOTOGRAPHER…
wearing the black vest……..( moving around on the left side of the screen )…..
holding a ( my first camera )… a Nikon FG-20 with a 50mm nikkor f1.8 and a vivitar flash…….
CAN U GUESS WHO IS THE PHOTOGRAPHER???????????
(HINT: a very famous personality here in Burn)…….
laughing……… this is history…………..
Panos, 22 years ago?…… How come you already look…41!!!! :-)))))))))))
bob dylan said:
“ohh but i was sooooooo much Older then, i’m younger than that Nowwwwwwwwww!!!!!!!!!!!”
Been shooting primarily digital since the EOS D30 in 2000, and digital P&S before that. Spent decades in the darkroom and much prefer to process images on the computer. Better for me for all the reasons others have outlined. But I also like the look of film, and still shoot it in my Leicas. In fact, I always carry an old Leica IIIc with a 15mm lens and finder and BW400CN along with the digital stuff.
I spent too many years with film to be nostalgic about it, though. Just another tool.
Jim…
Wowwwwwwwwwwww!
… gimme an honest “power” critique for my song though……..
peter grant
July 3, 2009 at 1:27 am
From what I understand, there are pro’s and con’s to both digital and analoge.
peter………..dont believe the hype……
theres no cons in digital…….
when a MASTER (DAH) OPENLY admits that digital is BETTER than film………..
THEN……u better believe it….
….. trust me on this…….
the new ford mustang gt is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy “better” car than the Ford model T.
u cant beat evolution……
the song …sometimes things are better left for the generations of the future…….the far future
… folks that still “swear” on film are lonely elitists…….
or super rich bitches that married wealthy old farts…………..
.. and you’ll find them hanging around here in “burn”……….
:))))))))))
…… but dont believe to what they are saying…….
they are lost in their conformism and their miserable lies….
Imants
July 3, 2009 at 3:03 am
the song …sometimes things are better left for the generations of the future…….the far future……
and thats the Digital era….
thank u imants…. couldnt have been said better……
welcome to TODAY y’all….
;-)
……..can’t wait for the 3-D version………..grin
“u cant beat evolution”………..
:))))))
( yeah right … sometimes i wish Darwin was wrong…. sometimes i wish that the monkey would still be a fish and not be transformed into a fat human carrying an eos…….. but Darwin, fucked it up…..)
:)))))
fish see photography as a difficult task
Panos
you are surprising me always. Now I kn ow why you live in LA.
Is a fish’s head waterproof?
About films…
Digi is better in many ways. Chiper, faster, many times sharper and better quality. But still, stilll my all pictures I am satisfy from, are made on films. All by best photos are no digital.
But also all my bests pictures was made with my Leica M6. I don’t like work with my big d200. I work with d200 like with big point&shot camera for myself, and for commercial assignments.
Meybe I could convince myself to digital with M8.2 but for me it is waste of money. The same wasting money as shooting on films.
Many times I think myself good photography is wasting of money.
I can do things with digi that i cant do with film. fact
I can do things with film that i cant do with digi. fact
Most ‘viewers’ dont give a rats arse what the medium is. fact
Nor should they.
The ‘picture’ is all that really counts to the viewer.
The ‘purity of method’ seems to really split us photographers down the middle.
I LOVE all my film cameras, and use them as much as possible.
I USE all my digital slr’s, and love them as much as i can.
John
Ironic, i just posted this comment yesterday in my other favourite place to hang out:
For me personally, if video kill the radio star:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_Killed_the_Radio_Star
I think DP Review and thus digital R&D killed the organic feel of ‘tone’ trading it instead for sharpness. I hate tack sharp images, images that were essentially made that way by some algorithm the scanned though all the digital bit’s of the image and accentuated the edges to make them ‘look’ sharper.
What’s the actual manifestation of this shift in importance of sharpness over tone and dynamic range?
Well I was shooting bands for quite some time, and I started out with a DSLR and built up quite a following of interest, then I started thinking, these images just don’t seem to have a soul, they look more like pictures than they do the photographs I grew up with, the photographs that were available during the film days. (damn I wish I never came to that conclusion as I’m a heretic now…)
So I shot a gig (luckily not paid) using a medium format camera and the images turned out terrific for my new taste, I loved the mood, the massive range of tones it provided (it was shot in a cave) and I love the way it handled the nice blown highlights from the stage lights as not really looking blown. I loved shooting at ASA3200. Form me the prints were amazing.
Here’s one of the scans:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/76363494@N00/2849131790/
When the lead singer of the band got the prints he said, these are shit, my friend is a photographer and you can actually count the eye-lashes on my eyes when he shot me.
That about summed it up for me. The eye-lash count has seemed to trump the tones and dynamic range magic, and for me I think that consumer shift was entirely caused by the weighting of sharpness (eye-lash-count) in most of the scoring in places like DP Review and thus the shift in interest in camera R&D and marketing interest.
It’s just now (after an ahead of it’s time Fuji S5 has not been continued) that people are starting to think about the dynamic range they lost with film and also the tone curve that came with that, but it will take some time to trickle down (it sorta has in hacky, multiple image take hdr sorta way)
Will they ever realise that ‘life’ is not supposed to be that sharp? I mean 20/20 vision is never that sharp? I doubt it, but I think that’s why I can look at an analogue portrait much longer than a digital portrait, one’s a photograph and the other seems more like a picture.
Panos;
Speaking of punk…. I’ve spent the day writing & editing pics, with the dvd “The Sex Pistols, Live at the Longhorn” playing in the background.
When I was 14 I used to stay up on a Friday night just to watch the Sex Pistols on tv on a programme called “Radio with Pictures”. I can still clearly remember seeing them sing “Anarchy in the UK” for the first time. It absolutely blew me away. It was so far removed from the way we lived; in a quiet very conservative farming area in a very conservative (in those years) country. I often used to dream of being amongst that wild scene…..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQkActP-isE
This year I’ve shot at 2 punk gigs here; UK bands “Pete and the Test Tube Babies” and “The Varukers”; both great shows and the crowd went nuts!!!
Cheers
I’ve heard photographers say that when they can no longer get film they will give up photography. That is a strange concept to me. It’s always been the images that are important to me, not the medium.
ALL…
i guess there is no end to the film vs. digi discussion..everybody makes good points….for me it seems to come down to just three things really….first, my large prints made with medium format film have a depth and tonal range i have not yet been able to achieve with digi…second, for me the process of instant gratification often makes me stop short of moving forward….third, i just cannot find a digi camera that i like as much as i did the M6 (a full frame M8 might do the trick)…no digi camera feels as much a part of “me” as did the M6 …i do have a full frame digi and is with me all the time…technically perfect actually….spectacular files and prints…but, the camera feels awkward by comparison and there is a set up time that just kills me….i could take the M6 right out of the bag and take a picture…every digi takes at least 30 seconds to “set up” …oh yes, one other thing, maybe the biggest thing…anybody really trust their hard drives for long term storage?? however, i do agree with all of the advantages of digi…not running out of film in the middle of an important sequence….shooting in low light heretofore impossible with film….etc etc…and as John G. says, it is the picture that matters , not the medium (except for some collectors)…
I agree with you Jim, but medium is also choose. This is very important choose.
Alec Soth is not famous from his point&shoot digi photos.
David is not most famous from his last digital pictures.
Alex Webb is not most famous from his last digi photos.
I think they all found the best medium for their way of shooting.
But lack of this best medium is not excuse.
I am happy to prostitute myself to any camera, storage not a problem……..don’t really care what happens to the images once I start pushing up daisies. While I kicking my soul around the backyard I can still take photos so it is no big deal if my backup imploded. If I get bored with photography or no longer have a piece of metal/plastic/glass tethered to my hand I would have probably moved on to something else
But also I have to say, D200 save me and my photography. So what if I like work with m6 and even I have better pictures with, if my M6 is empty since month.
All I can say is F..k velvias and provias, deltas and txs.
Viva la digital technology!
8)
PANOS…
terrific video of you as a rock star!!!
your guitar work looked a bit shaky but your voice was good…
now, the most amazing thing about this film is that about half way through a guy comes in from the right and takes up part of the frame for about 2-3 seconds, full profile…eyes looking hard left……
this guys looks just like our Joe!!!
ALL
didn’t mean to unearth the digi/film debate..- obviously both media have their benefits..
my point in suggesting andrew b shoot bw film for awhile was for the benefits of how you shoot film (how you make your decisions when you don’t have playback/how you connect to the subject, similar to what DAH said above) and also the ease that you can learn about your images from contacted bw (form/line, sequence, the whole reading your contact sheets upside down trick), not to suggest one medium was across the board better.
Seems like worth a mention here that I believe in reading negatives for the first viewing, then contacts sheets or preview scans..it surprises me how few people read negatives..but it also shocks me that darkroom is becoming an elective at many schools!! that seems fundamentally wrong.
DAH..didn’t people used to read from negatives as par for the course?
On the other side of the spectrum from PJs chimping away now are all those amazing images that were sent back as film to the Magnum office / magazine because of time, danger or what have you without the photographer seeing what he shot..I have always been curious DAH as to how that works..it is possible for a photographer to see his images or the first time when they are run, in the case of a war or such?
*********************
“ERICA… yes, you and Andrew would make a terrific team….”
Thanks DAH..I do think Andrew Sullivan and I compliment each other in a number of ways from personality and shooting style – we are very different but mesh very well..hopefully in a workshop our match would make for something special..
Erica, re: teaching darkroom skills. Believe it or not (many don’t) film is either going to go away completely or become a very expensive niche. What is the point of teaching obsolete technologies?
As far reading negatives, that works for large and medium format, but there is not a lot to be gleaned from tiny 35mm negatives. You can get some graphic sense with a loupe on a light table, but I never found it very useful. I always made enlarged contact sheets.
JIM
I completely disagree on both points..
the negatives I learned to read were 35mm, and I find it easier to read a 35 than a MF neg when I read with a loupe, mostly because I don’t have a loupe that covers the 6×6 in one shot.. A LOT is to be gleaned..99% of the time I can tell you from my bw neg (I am not so good with color neg reading) which images will be keepers. but perhaps it is a skill that needs to be taught from the get-go.
darkroom..even if the technology were to become obsolete, what I (and DAH) have said above about what you learn with regard to being a photographer, would not.
A silver gelatin print is worth double,
than that of a digi print,
in the gallery world….
pixels vs grain….
apples vs oranges
xo
ERICA,
Just curious, why do you find it important to be able to read negatives? I think it’s hard, especially colour negs as you say. Maybe the composition should work as well as a negative as a positive?
Cheers
ahh..but thank you Jim..you just made me realize how much I love standing in the darkroom or wherever and reading each neg for the first time in whatever light source there may be, a bulb, a window, neck craned back..searching..it is such a great feeling..never liked the light table..that moment where I see it the neg for the first I don’t want anyone talking to me, and if my breath stops for a second and I smile..bingo
Arcane technologies often bring more money, which in the case of images always amazes me. It should only be the image that matters.
After being a custom printer for years,
YES, you can tell if an image
will work
or not,
thru the neg-
even 35mm…
I believe that is an
art in itself….
as well as printing….
photography,
for me,
does not stop at the press of the shutter….
it is only the beginning…
xox
Jim
“Arcane technologies often bring more money”
yea… maybe in US.
“It should only be the image that matters.”
That’s why medium is so important.
MARTIN
I think it has to do with reducing the elements to the simplest form before any printing choices have been made. You know how you can turn a bw neg (especially a slightly thin one) just so and catch the light and see EVERYTHING? To me, the whole image is there, screaming nearly, I can see every little nuance and detail that may be chosen for or against once you go into the contacting/printing stage. I used to print as a profession, and whenever there were important choices to be made about what to bring out / hold back, I always went back to the negative. If you can learn to see it, there is so much information in the negative. But additionally, yes, all the form, lines, etc. are right there for you to read as well..
But for many Jim,
it is the PROCESS,
not just the image,
that is loved….
sorry for jumping in here,
out of turn….
I too, Erica,
will always LOVE watching
an image appear in the developer…
now thats
MAGIC
and
SEXY….
xo
I think most important in photography is subject.
chasing rabbits is more important than the rabbit…..unless you are hungry
Imants
ha ha ha!!!
**
i was checking out some of Daido Moriyama’s books at the photographer’s gallery last week, he’s proof-positive to me that you can produce interest with only interesting displays of tones. I love how he prints.
Wendy I didn’t know you were a printer? I think i’ve spent over 100 hours in the darkroom over the last 30 days, loved every minute of it, except the times that i noticed some undiscoverd ‘printed specs’ not detected until it was dry and everything was put away :-(
film will NOT die. point.
Will they ever realise that ‘life’ is not supposed to be that sharp?
—————————————————————
Joe, wasn’t it what was said against Photography, at least as a possible new art, vs painting?
Jim is right. it’s about the image, not the process, and what its mechanics allow us to get. the vast majority of people never think of the process when they look at a picture, yet, can “get” it.
I think from what I read here, a lot of the love and nostalgia for film, has to do with that process, and the print, less the image. if we have to judge flim against digital, strictly on what was captured in the frame, it’s the same (same like CD and LP, warm tone or bitmaps, it’s still a Mozart symphony).
It is strange to say that when the process can almost threaten the capture, in digital. But maybe there goes the dilemma for the entire photographic expression. That little 1/125th of a second depends so much on materials/mechanics and processing, which comes before, or after, never during the moment you shoot, that moment that equals pretty much writing the book, painting the canvas, drawing the picture, composing the note., etc…
7.30AM!!! Hope I made sense. Off to work….
JOE
I always think,
its like a washed car…
so shiny and luscious when wet…
and then it dries,
and it looks different…
I’ll tell you what I do…
it all comes down to math and me in the darkroom, GULP!!!
when you see the print that you want when its wet,
density and all,
make your final print 1/10th your time to allow for drying!!!
ohhhh..
I see you meant ‘specs’ on your print…
well then,
forget the math!!!
**
:))
DAH
Yes, it is the cameras I miss, not the film. I loved my Leicas and my 35 point and shoot cameras because of the optical viewing. I love my medium format gear for the special look the more limited depth of field gives, and spent decades composing pictures backwards in a waist level viewfinder.
With reference to being “ready” however, DAH I told ya before, and I’ll tell ya again, Just stick that sucker on “P”, put the ISO and white balance on “auto” and the camera will be ready to shoot anything, day or night, instantly. Trust the force Luke…I mean David.:}
Somehow this whole discussion about film vs. digi makes me feel fortunate that I never entered photography in a serious way until after the digital revolution. I don’t miss the feel of a film camera, the lure of the darkroom, the wonder of the negative wet & glistening…simply because I never knew these things. Like today’s children who never knew the look, sound or feel of that old black telephone in its stationary cradle in the front hall, I can’t miss what I never knew. Digi is all I know so it feels right to me.
But I must say that I adore the look of a silver gelatin print framed and hanging on a museum or gallery wall. There is something so incredibly sensual about it.
DAH, 30 seconds to set up your digi camera for a shot? That sounds like a lot of time even for this less-than-able-handed photog, but maybe you’re changing more settings than I.
Patricia
CAVEMAN PANOS
LOVE IT!!!!!!!
Patricia
HERVE..
the image..it’s not the same..most of the time I feel the let down of the digital image. It’s like a hoop I have to step through..I of course have learned to appreciate what many people do with digital, for example I adore the way Carolyn Drake uses digital..but to my eyes film and dig are usually apples and oranges. Had the gorgeous work in book form of Tomas van Houtryve in my hands at LOOK, and he asked me what I thought he had shot it with..I said 1/2 film and 1/2 digital, he said yes, I was right, and I pointed out which was which. I did get a couple wrong, but not many.
MartinB..:)
in LA,especially in East LA or southcentral..
every Sunday u will witness the “cholos”( mexican gang members ), but not exclusively( bloods and creeps love their Lowriders the same)…
Parading their their Lo-Lo’s with pride.. Up and down Central or Whittier blvd ..Buicks from the 50’s and Chevys from the 40’s and Barracudas and Antiques of all kinds..
Funny coincidence is that most of those “proud” gangbangers are typically lazy and angry.. They will shoot u if u touch their cars .. Their Pride gets so hurt if u tell them that their old restored WITH LOVE poop machines drive worst than a KIA RIO or a YUGO…
they never have time to get a job because their always busy in their little “darkrooms”.. Fixing their cars..
They tell their chola girlfriends..
“can u go to the liquor store mamas & get me a Clamato budweiser.. Because I’m busy , can’t u see? Waxing our Pride..Adele mamas..daddy’s thirsty…)
Great question …Darkroom overtime
is the greatest excuse to not go out and shoot..elitist laziness..
DAH, MARCIN..
laughing… Yes that’s why I moved to LA..
although Nashville was the place to go…
Why the hell I ended up in the Tom Cruise city?
What do I have In common with the Scientologists???
Gotta move out of this plastic place..
Laughing…
sorry wasn’t really done..and that wasn’t so much about the printing of the image, but that an equivalent quality you mention (Mozart CD vs. LP)..it does change things. But also images are shot slightly differently, light is recorded differently, the feeling is different. And for most people, this difference may be irrelevant, but my point is that when I look at most digital images, BEFORE I can take in the image for the image, my mind/body reacts and says ‘now i am looking at a digital image’..the same way I have a moment of recognition in a museum – oil vs. acrylic ..but i love some work done in acrylic..and possibly this is one reason why I love mixed media, Rauschenberg for example..the surface confuses, delights, pulls you in while preventing the mind from instant recognition and categorizing..
Ross…
Man.. I checked your beautiful Takanaki link
after I read your last months struggle..
At least you are not struggling in a filthy plastic City..
NZ looks so gorgeous …
And u working into the nature into the wild..
I envy u.. Actually u inspire me…
Thank u…:)
pat…:))))))
AIN’T newer TECHNOLOGY something?
I remember someone 20 years ago tried to sell me
that Utube CAVEMEN DANCE in a form of a VHS..
but ofcourse no money..
20 years later I can share with everyone my 15 minutes
of “shame” .. No extra charge…
:)
Marcin I hear u…
Digi let u shoot more..
Personally I’m very very SUSPICIOUS
of folks spending more than 10 minutes
alone in a DARK ROOM.. any darkroom ( being alone )
is CREEPY…
( they are either hiding their alcoholism or they
love performing masturbation excessively)..
Trust me.. I know.. I worked in a DARK ROOM for
several years in Athens..)
“Once I quit HIDING, I started FINDING”
jesus,( Jewish philosopher)
0-33AD
Gordon u nailed it..
“it’s the cameras I miss, not the film”..
Gordon..:)
you know what else I miss???
Impressing girls and people in general..
When I was printing in a darkroom..
People use to look at me like I’m a big scientist
or a doctor..
I looked so smart.. Like an ALCHEMIST..
now I’m nothing.. I lost my superiority..
I’m not the MAGICIAN..
I lost my pick up lines ..
I used to say with an Elvis deep voice..:
“do u want me to teach u something cool… babee..
Come in my darkroom.. Don’t be scared.. I’ll hold your
hand.. I’m here for u..”
creepyyyy..
I know, I know.. but it always worked…
Now what?
Should I say … “hey, I got a the new PhotoshopCS.. wanna check it out?”
bullshit
laughing.. I miss those days when I was somebody…
:))
Wendy..:)
u nailed it..
For some, it’s the PROCESS
they care the most..
Not the actual photograph..
But,
I tend to agree with Marcin..
whatever frees your time so you can
shoot more.. is “better”..
Again, for the folks that have all this
time to spend in a darkroom good for them..
They are process lovers..
TOO MUCH TIME IN THEIR HANDS..
who cares…
.. Just because one chooses a wayyy longer path
to reach their destination doesn’t make them deeper ..
although they’d wish…:)
Anyone going to Arles photo festival?
All I found for accomodation is a twin room in a hotel 3kms from the city center. Not ideal, but if anyone is interested in sharing this, please contact me through my website… I made a reservation for July 8-11th (3 nights).
twin=2 separate beds, non smoking, 36 euros/person/night.
You can find more about the Hotel at:
http://balladins.eu/fiche_hotel.php?id=74&type_info=1#ancre_hotel
And more about me at
http://www.brunoquinquet.com
ERICA…
yes, i used to have to read negatives…i never could afford to make contact sheets, so the negative was all i had…actually, i did not even “see” a negative…i saw a negative and transposed it in my head to a positive…i could read expressions, eye position etc etc from the negative..never thought about it twice..
PATRICIA…
well, maybe it is not 30 seconds, but it seems like it…
DAH
exactly! never realized that, but you are right..i see the positive too..
and ALL , btw, the work I was talking about by Tomas was all in color..the digi/film difference in bw is huge to my eye, no comparison
Bruno, Great stuff!
PANOS…
hey malaka, i wish!!!
the whole conversation reminds me of the earlier digi debate……
is a point & shoot (comparing to a Dslr) pro?
And then Alex Majoli and Paolo stepped into the game with their little olympus
toys and changed the world…..once Again…..
thank you Magnum…..
thanks to the openminded out there , we have a future……..
enough with that fake superior “perfectionism”… Who cares
about a perfect print if the photo sucks?????????????
Malaka…:))
I also want to go “deeper”..
Two ways I found so far..
Either pick up diving…
Or…??? .. Male enhancement products
from Tijuana…
I’ll report in a month which one actually works..
:))))
Panos Vicious!
You rock my friend!
Actually…. Vicious Panos flows better. ;^}
Well Panos that was not my intent by so go ideas on Burn. This personal project I’m working has sort of been like wood working with hand tools instead of power tools. It is not an attempt to compare digital to film.
It’s just a gas to go out with 24 exposures, no auto focus, no meter, one lens and thinking B&W. It’s a different pace that has personal rewards. It’s already having a positive effect on my work “work”.
Now as for going deeper—you just gotta try both.
Michael…:)
if my photos suck as much as my “rock” “shaky guitar” skills…!!!!!..
then, then…… id rather pick up “diving”….:))
only problem:” cant masturbate underwater”…….:(
( im glad i helped elevating our “deep” conversation once more..)
Paul…:)))))
i hear u……..
just trying to fix my mood…joking around……
just like Ross the other day,
i woke up checking my bank account, scraping pennies to pay the rent,
which was due yesterday btw…
now, imagine if i had to go buy 10 rolls of film….:(((
but no problem…. i can still go out and walk around Downtown LA all day,
shooting 1000 photos and still able to buy a pack of cigarettes and a starbucks doubleshot
expresso…….
:))))
You know I was comparing you to Sid Vicious… right?
Imants
July 3, 2009 at 3:24 am
fish see photography as a difficult task
…….only if they have to use tele…..fish do better when they use “fisheye” wides…:)
Michael…:)))))))
of course i know and thanks……..:)
( but, except from the heroin addiction i dont have anything else in common with the great SID VICIOUS….)
i wish… though!
laughing…
!! amidst this film / digi discussion, UPS came with a very long desired copy of
Bruce Davidson – Brooklyn Gang
film..film..film..what a gem, look no further than these pages.
can’t believe i bought it..anyone interested, for some the publisher has some original in new condition copies for sale right now of this out of print and hard to come by book, for less than the used copies are being sold see http://www.twinpalms.com/?p=out_of_print&bookID=116
emcd,
im glad you just PROVED that Bruce’s work ,
wouldnt be able to be captured without FILM….
thats all needed… im sold….. changing my mind now….
:))))))))))
ERICA…PANOS…
ok, you guys keep this discussion going….i am going for a bike ride and a swim…of course, in my backpack is a digi camera…doing digi, dreaming film….peace…
David
one question:
How many do you have essays submissed to burn? Probably to the ond of the year. There is any sense to sending more?
Marcin,
dont worry..
the “best” always comes “first”…
please submit…….
i rely on you … im your fun…
come on malaka………
show us work…..
cant wait…..:)))))))
DAH..:)
i wonder what kind of bicycle Ansel Adams used to carry his little camera…
:))))))))))))
WENDY
“when you see the print that you want when its wet,
density and all,
make your final print 1/10th your time to allow for drying!!!”
cannot get this… you mean: reduce the exposure of 1/10th to compensate for the darkening of the print after drying? I guess it works for some type of paper (agfa baryt for example, even if I never defined precisely the math behind the process) but some RC papers tend to have lighter tones when dry.
talking of darkroom stuff actually sounds more like a Carbonari’s speech than a tech speech ;)
Abele.:)))))
Wendy refers to the actual WASTE of your time…..
i think its way more than 1/10th of your time….
but i guess that Wendy was trying to be polite and civilised,
unlike me,……:))))
i agree with DAH…
id rather waste my time on the beach than waste it in a smelly DARK ROOM…..
:)
anyway,im going out too…….
fuck this dark room…….
see y’all manana……..
back to my salvadorian exploration now..
F**k all darkrooms, virtual or not…
Also F**k LIGHT ROOM and my laptop too………..
go out and shoot biatcheeeeeeees!
:))))))))))
I shoot with polaroid :)
Is this considered film???
LOVE YOU BURNIANS!!!
P.S Oime…We Greeks talk a lot…right Mr.Caveman…:)
have you been inside ” a cave” for a while!!!:))))))???
Maybe we should apply a 3 comments per day:) for some of us :)))))))
VIVA…shoot BURNIANS…whatever is available…just shoot.
You are shooting HISTORY !!! LOVE
Panos
I didn’t come back from afica. No war (thanks god) no superb stories. Just everyday snapshoots. Nothing super high exiting. Thats why I am sure there is no sense to submit. Especially if one thousands are waiting in the line. If not… I should have a story as a work in progress.
All
I heard Sam Abell and Salgado come back to photography. Is that true? On what they working on?
MARCIN,
I believe in you…
You have a story…
WHAT NOT TO LOVE !!!
Go MARCIN, goooooooo
Civi, they stopped making Polaroid film. Hope you stocked up. :)
I knew it JIM…I knew it.
Something was wrong:)))
By the way, will you accept my key?
I am not Back at home yet…
BUT I promised to all the BURNIANS that as soon as I will stop spinning around the Universe
Your keys will be available for pickup !!!
DID I SAY HOW MUCH I LOVE YOU BURNIANS ?
OUR PATRICIA,
My humble opinion regarding your cover …
I would go for the White hawk DOWN :))))))
I love you
“A group of businessmen and Polaroid’s ex-employees have bought the Polaroid factory in Amsterdam with the goal to resume production of instant films in 2010. The initiative is also supported by Manchester-based Ilford Photo.”
Yeah. And the south is going to rise again.
How much are you willing to pay for 10 shots in your old SX-70? $100? The economics of what they are trying to do, even if they manage to reverse engineer the chemical technology, just doesn’t make sense.
JIM, we live in an age where thinking about the economic sense of things is so last administration and even they didnt want to do it for very long.
Let’s scream !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ICE CREAMMMMM…
where are you Katie…Gracie delivered the ice-cream :)
DavidB, “Balkan” boy …ice cream time
Come on …it’s summer after alllllll
Panos;
Thanks for that, I hope what I wrote about the trials of work didn’t sound like whining because that wasn’t the intent. Just that I thought I was very lucky to be doing what I enjoy and am amazed how often that unexpected job comes through to save my bacon!!
Last night I shot about 2 rolls worth of digital images at a gig. If I was shooting slide film it would have cost me NZ$56 for film and processing, all for a personal project. Simple fact I couldn’t have afforded to shoot it on film. However, I am using a Holga too, for my project.
My old beaten-up original FM2 still sits in my drawer. Even though I sold off all my other film cameras I can’t bear to part with that old “original”, it’s like an old friend!
Cheers everyone
This is a very late reply to Herve’s request that I write about the workshop I took with DAH and Jim Nachtwey in C’ville. It’s not much but all I can do right now.
http://patricialaydorsey.blogspot.com/2009/07/seeing-with-new-eyes.html
Patricia
As an aside; the gig I was shooting at last night was an “all age” event; an end of school term blowout and pretty much all the bands were school kids. I get blown away by their sheer talent; they’ve got more musical ability in their little fingers than I had in my entire body at their age!
A case in point; A 3-piece heavy metal band breaking up their song with a bridge of really slick jazz runs. I don’t know if I would have been so open to other types of music at their age (18-ish).
Cheers
Seems someone turned my monitor up a couple or three notches — ice cream social not nearly as blown out as first viewed.
It was blown out on my monitor that is CMYK calibrated and makes everything look darker. Way to hot.
“Die Spur eines Bisses im Nigrends
Auch sie
musst du bekampfen,
won hier aus.”
The Trace of a Bite in the nowhere.
It too
you have to fight,
from here on out.”
-paul celan
IMAGINE
Imagine:
the moorsoldier from Massada
teaches himself homeland, in
the most inextinguishable way,
against
all barbs in the wire.
Imagine:
the eyeless without shape
lead you free through the throng, you
grow stronger and
stronger.
Imagine: your
own hand has held once
more this
into life re-
suffered
piece of
inhabitable earth.
Imagine:
that came toward me,
awake to the name, awake to the hand,
forever,
from what cannot be burried.
-paul celan
——————————–
I wish to tell you a story….
once, long ago, i knew nothing of how the translate all that staggered and spit and spiraled around me, all that seemed to seep and accumulate and ensorcell, all that shit, all that beauty, all that magnificent and confusing life that always bit deep inside me and seemed to run long along the spine and nerve of my life, all that stuff that I failed to be able to express adequately with words, with a carriage of paint and pen and tongue and prick and arm, all that stuff that seem to built up the life and people around me, all that magisterial and mysterious stuff that made me want to live, want to celebrate, want to fuck with joy and carnal celebration, all that seem to alight this world. There was a time, and it stays stuck and tucked in my gut, when i didnt know at all how to express the profound disbelief and bewilderment that I felt to living….and still, to this day, have not entirely learned how to adequately express that, how to speak upon things, how to celebrate and love and honor and hark out against the beautiful magnificence of the living, like Ahab tossing his spear into the spew and wet-rounding of this unknowable living. I once held a camera and was discouraged everything i held it because I knew that I would never be able to adequately harness it to allow for some basic telling….
that frustration has never left…..
All of the cameras that i use now are film-based, though this has nothing to do, generally speaking, with some ridiculous hierarchy of quality. It’s a simple calculation born of very practical things. I cannot afford, at least at the moment, to buy a new camera. I have used film cameras for most of my life. When I became ‘serious’ (though I loathe that word) about photography, the first camera I used was an old, very old, digital camera, an old Sony camera, into which i had to put a small black floppy, capable of recording exactly 5 pictures, 5 images. Accompanying this camera, I used my old Nikon, that was the first camera I ever owned. I was given this camera after my grandmother died, just as the moment when I had decided to give up painting for photography, just as the moment when everything I knew about myself and my life was in flux, was torn apart by a difficult and painful couple of years that saw the destruction of most of 10 years of paintings, the turning aside of all I believed about myself and the life, up to that point that I had constructed, including a conviction that my life would make sense through the expression of words (poems, stories and books) and art (paintings and drawings). Much of that was vanquished over the course of two profound and near-tragic years, and I found myself in front of Kiefer’s paintings, in front of a small exhibition of Moriyama’s photographs and the work of Boltanski. I was 32 years old and my life was collapsing around me….and then my grandmother died, and i was bequeathed one of her old Nikons….after the funeral, a friend of mine in Los Angeles (a film maker) gave me a digital camera as well to play with and I used, then, both and began to try to re-construct my life, I began to re-construct the simple joy of trying to make sense of the world around me, re-learning things I had forgotten: how to process/develop film, how to ‘take a picure’, how to see before snapping, how to figure out light and depth of field, how to make a properly exposed picture, how to load film, how to reconcile the difference between what i ‘saw’ and what the end result was…it was both an exciting and maddening time.
I used both cameras. I was completely in love with the digital camera: all that mad pixelation, all the noise, the poor balance of lighting and exposure, the awful tonality, the fact that I could only take 5 pics per hard floppy. I was frustrated by the cost of film and even then, i rarely bought more than 2 rolls of film a week and I always had labs print the 6×4 glossy crap and i looked at the digi shit on my old computer. I used the digital camera as a kind of sketch book, a way to figure out composition and light, of exposure without real control (there were no f-stops, not shutter speed control), how to think about color (yes, i used to shoot color) and all these helped me figure out the fully manual Nikon camera…as i grew in confidence (it doesnt take long to figure out how to make a decent picture, technically speaking), i continued to use both cameras for a few years, again the digital camera as a kind of sketchbook, where i could ‘afford’ to fuck around with light and angle and composition and ‘thoughtlessness’…as my film work began to make sense, i started to use my film camera the way i had used that original, first generation digital camera…..i started to show people my work, first the digital stuff (this is 10 years ago) and was hamered (your work sucks or interesting work, but you need a real camera, what are you doing this isnt photography) until i started to show people my film stuff…and that received attention, and it felt odd…many of the people who”d criticized my weird color digital stuff who said i wasnt much of a photographer suddently changed when they saw my film work…and then the ‘demand’ to show the work came, then the posting of shit came, and the conversations with other photographers, and galleries and then i gave my digital camera away and bought more film cameras and all that made little sense…..
for in truth, as my film work has continued to evolve and intersect and question, i find increasingly the work grows closer and closer to that silly, excited, frail, ugly stuff i was making more than 10 years ago….and it has not diminished….
the discussion and argument between digital work and film work seems incessantly tiring and I rarely understand either the elitist arguments that film is more elegant and eloquent, truer, nor the the diatribe that digital represents now or the future, when in truth, all that matters is the negotiation and expression….
I’ve spent a pretty fair amount of my life away from my family, away from writing, away from the outside world, in the dark room printing, fighting with my opaque, black negatives…and i’ve spent a fair amount of time wrestling over digital incarnations of pictures, and both are wonderous and maddening…both film and digital work maddens and frustrates and illuminates….in the end, all that matters is a very simple equation:
how is that you, and only you, can best speak about the world around, how best you can express the stories you have been priviledged enough to be told, to have listened to, to have gathered, how best is it that you can afford to give a part of yourself out to the world, the world that for the most part remains silent and mute and deaf and numb to your stories…even though your stories are all of our stories….
i cannot afford to buy a new digital camera and so i rely on my old Nikon, on my holga, on my diana, on my lomo on my Fed (Russian version of Leica), on my pin-hole camera….and I print…sometimes in the dark room, sometimes digitally. I cannot afford to buy as much film as I wish and I cannot afford to print as much as i wish, ….for the most part, most of the photographers that I have met are ridiculously wealthy, by any standard of measure….they bemoan and argue over useless, pointless things….i tire and i weary of all that….we are privileged to be able to make pictures, to sing out into the world, to express ourselves, selfishly, to have both the agility and the ability to even make photographs….do you understand how privileged it is to even own a camera, a computer, a space in a darkroom….
i try to remember that…i dont give a fuck about either, about which is more this or less that, i could care less about the ‘golden time’ of photography or the ‘brilliant now/future’ of photography…it’s all the god damn same….it’s all about connection, all about being and having the priviledge to work, to make pictures, to tell stories, to sing upon the narrative of our lives and to hope that this connects you, reminds you, alters and shifts and shares….
on bad days, i wish to stop. being a photographer often makes me feel selfish and vainglorious and obnoxious and premadonnaish….it’s such tripe and triffles that we argue and debate over…..and then i think, on good days, this was what i was meant to do: to write, to tell stories, to snap some pictures….
if those pictures and stories are captured with film, or digital pixels or scribbles on a wall, it doesnt matter…..what does matter, for me, is that photography, in whatever way i have done it has bound me to others….and that is something that cannot ben pinched by media….i love the texture of grain, the ‘waiting’ of film, the disappointment and the patience film requires….and i love the efficiency, the ‘immediacy’ the playfulness of digital, for both remind me of a simple thing….
we are all wading through this place…we are all still and forever wrestling with that medium of expression: the language of our lives and the narration of our bewilderment and our joy and our suffering…..and in that place, both film and digital accomplish and fail….
for above all else, it is we and our lives that is the essential medium….
without us, there is no film and there is no digital equation….
and i will make pictures when i cannot afford film or when film disappears and I will make pictures when i my computer crashes…
and those pictures will remain scribbled along the inside of my head and heart…and that is the only thing i wish to bequeath my son…..
the scribbling, in whatever form that takes…
running
bob
this was the first picture i took for David Harvey’s EPF in 2008
nikon, tri-x, rodinal, printed on RC Agfa matte….11×14…poor scan quality…
http://www.flickr.com/photos/73821181@N00/3685595516/sizes/o/
Thank you, dear Bob, for sharing your words and the life/thought they reflect. I always learn from you. You always drag me deeper into the wonder of things.
Patricia
Hey who took my cork screw? All I can find is the 3 Stooges bottle opener. NATNATNAAA. I’ve got to get that damn bottle open…
Enjoy the weekend all in Burnsville!
OUPS, NATNATNAAA…Pomara
I got it.
HAPPY FOURTH 4th…VIVA !!!
Red Wine …maybe?
P.S Please, drink with moderation. THANK YOU.
ROSS
I’ve NEVER been able to afford the film I buy, ( I nearly fell off my chair when I had to calculate the expenses to date for this personal piece I am working on now for a grant application) nor the rest of the expenses, and certainly not the books I can’t keep away from..but I can tell you I really can’t afford not to follow my heart..I’ve made peace with financial debt long ago and will keep on, but hopefully grants / assignments will offset some of the expense in time..just in from shooting and again I feel so grateful and alive and full, I jut have to keep working and have faith the money will sort out
BOB
love the good days / bad days sentiment..mine exactly
I’ll join the pointless discussion, uninvited.
For me, while looking at other photographers work, there is no importance whatsoever which process or tools they used. Often I am not even able to tell one from another (since we usually look at the work online), is it digital, is it film, is it medium format or some other format and I don’t care a bit. And I get excited about different work, sometimes made on film, sometimes of pixels.
On the other hand, for my own work, the process, the ‘workflow,’ is very important. Final image, brings perhaps some %30 of satisfaction. Final image for me is not all it counts, I do photography because I enjoy the process of image creation. Therefore, I find that working with film is what makes me thrilled, ME not you or someone else. I got digital SLR some 3 years ago and got very quickly tired of the process. It’s been 1,5 years that I haven’t almost touched it. Not because the images are worst or better with one tool or another but because the digital workflow never was able to excite me as work with film.
How someone can claim that one is better than the other is beyond me.
So, everyone is right in this discussion, and everyone is wrong.
Bob says: “All of the cameras that i use now are film-based, though this has nothing to do, generally speaking, with some ridiculous hierarchy of quality.” And Bob is spot on.
“Final image, brings perhaps some %30 of satisfaction. Final image for me is not all it counts, I do photography because I enjoy the process of image creation.”
I do not understand why many of you so much deny the images quality, and the way to get this “own” quality. I am sorry Velibor but if the images is only 30% of satisfaction why you not taking pictures without film or memory card in your camera. Of course only 70% of time because you still need this 30.
:)
I do not know personally Jim Nachtwey and I can’t even ask him that he ever use a camera like that:
http://doxa.blox.pl/resource/DSC04271.JPG
“there is no importance whatsoever which process or tools they used”
Somebody use this kind of camera everyday?
Why CIVI! It’s Independence Day!!!
im afraid that Jim is right this time…
“the mighty South wont rise anytime soon”….
:)
Marcin…:)
f**k Africa… i care more about your polish “blue” town….
As Jim mentioned earlier… i care more about your backyard than
Nigerian oil crisis…….so submit… please…
again, im a great fan of yours biatch…
:)
big hug from the city of Angels…
anyway… i just came back from exploring downtown…..
4 hours walking, 500 images later……..it only cost me 1 coca cola ($2)and a pack
of yellow american spirits (cigs $7)…How else could i afford 500 snaps on film?
How can i create a “darkroom” in a studio apartment in the middle of LA…?
“anyway… i just came back from exploring downtown…..
4 hours walking, 500 images later……..it only cost me 1 coca cola ($2)and a pack
of yellow american spirits (cigs $7)…How else could i afford 500 snaps on film?
How can i create a “darkroom” in a studio apartment in the middle of LA…?”
And this is best argument!
I hate films!
Panos
I am a snapshoot photographer. No more “blue” town… just walls and garbage…
Marcin… I am trying hard to understand your question, or point, but I am not able…
You say: “I do not understand why many of you so much deny the images quality, and the way to get this “own” quality.”
I am not denying image quality, when I look at your work, or anybody else’s, image quality is all that matters… but, in my own work, it is also important how do I get to that image, I have to like the process as well…
You also saud: “I am sorry Velibor but if the images is only 30% of satisfaction why you not taking pictures without film or memory card in your camera. Of course only 70% of time because you still need this 30.”
??? I have no clue what are you talking about.
PATRICIA
thanks for the link..love the bit about thinking of a photo as a sculpture..that will eat at me for awhile :)
Let’s take a little detour here folks. It ain’t the medium kids, it’s how you express it. A great and memorable image is what it is. Film, digital, it makes no sense thinking one is better than the other.
Now, one of my great pronouncements has been that digital has made film a legit art form. Photography has always struggled to be on the same plane as traditional art. Digital has given film and print the freedom to stand alongside the other mediums. Wait and see…
Ok you all, have at it!
Hi Erica;
“I jut have to keep working and have faith the money will sort out” Me too!! But…. Velvia costs $26 a roll here (+ processing), I used to import it from New York so I could get it cheaper!
“I really can’t afford not to follow my heart” Me too again! :-)) I usually do magazine work to pay the bills, assignments are pretty few and far between where I live. But every spare hour/dollar I get I throw into my youth project work, whether it be actual shooting or editing etc…
So far I seem to be able to achieve a reasonable balance between bread and butter work and the project. It also helps that I can shoot my project anywhere because it is happenning everywhere, which certainly reduces costs.
I seem to find myself thinking about it 24/7, god I even dream it sometimes :-) I’m in the process of applying for grants at the moment, it’s a whole new kettle of fish for me because I’ve always liked to stand on my own two feet.
I am also trying a different tack and attempting to obtain commercial sponsorship. I’ve had interest but the stumbling block is they don’t want to be associated with anything to do with alcohol. No matter which way you look at it; youth culture = alcohol! If I leave out any partying then I’m being untruthful and diluting the project. A bit like photographing an “exotic culture” and leaving out all the images in Western clothing etc…
Cheers
Has anyone had any luck going for commercial sponsorship for their projects?
All…..
breaking news.( for america, at least..)
Republican Sarah Palin just QUIT……..
( secret reasons below ):
10)Wants to go hiking the Appalachian Trail.
9) This is not a retreat. It is an advance in the direction opposite to forward.
8) Wants to be appointed Ambassador to Africa. She still thinks it is a country.
7) Will be appearing on Wife Swap, with Jenny Sanford.
6) Michelle Bachmann was getting too much attention for being batshit crazy.
5) Blagojevich told her she could put her job up for sale on EBay.
4) Palin is the sole beneficiary in newly found Michael Jackson will.
3) Took career advice from President Dan Quayle.
2) John McCain bailed out five times too.
And the number one reason why Sarah Palin quit as Governor of Alaska:
1)Wants to move to Chicago and become a Community Organizer.
so, great news…y’all… now we have a real reason to celebrate Independence Day…
laughing…
yes, hilarious panos!
Wrong, Panos
1) she is reforming the CAVEMEN to become their lead singer.
:-)
emcd
the image..it’s not the same..most of the time I feel the let down of the digital image
———————————-
This is fine, to each his own, but not the reality out there. Too many pros and greats have switched to digital. It may be still lacking in some department (David mentionned only one for him, something like “collodial print processing”), but I do not think they would do it if it was simply that much below their usual standards.
Again, with each new process, each new mechanical advance, photography, thru-out its history, seems to always be on its deathbed for some. I suppose when we will be able to take a shot by simply using our eye, with a command from the brain to some tiny device, we old early pioneers of digital Ps might say
“that’ s it, it’s the end of photography”.
But really, only the end of P. as we/you know it, IMO.
Dear Burnians…Just wanted to let all those in the vicinity of Beijing that I shall be having an exhibition tonight (4th July) at Cafe Zarah, in central Beijing. Burnians are of course invited, as is anyone else who might be interested in the show. The opening runs from 6p.m. till late. We have a selection of 40×30 framed prints on show for a month, but tonight I’ll be presenting my multimedia presentation and giving a talk about the work. So, if you are in and around Beijing, please stop by!
Here is a link to the exhibition promotion: http://tiny.cc/f09QE
Thanks for the support as always. Hope to see you there.
Best,
Sean
P.S. Please feel free to tweet, retweet, facebook or generally spread the word about the event. Thanks!
Right on Sean……..
proud of you…….:)))))))))))))))))
OHHHHH PANOS
‘its the process,
NOT
the image…’
NO NO NO NO……
thats not what I meant…
and I can’t write it all down now…
cuz its too much…
I came into the film world (movies)
and only know digital film..
thats why everyone makes movies now,
DIGITAL!!
look at youtube,
I know you do…
I do embrace all,
film AND digital,
but
photography
for ME
will always be film…
although I love the digital photo world too,
its just different,
thats all…..
Shoot your 500 frames a day,
for free…..
isn’t that a beautiful thing….
but,
because some STILL love the darkroom,
doesn’t mean that we are dinosaurs!!!!!
I love you Panos,
but had to further explain my feelings on photography….
and I know,
all too well,
about rent
and
cost of film,
and smelly chemicals….
Now,
I jump between the still world,
and
movie land, digital style….
and
I love it all…..
Its all about story telling,
for me….
**
ABELE
yes, decrease your printing time by 1/10……
ok…
my rant is done….
in short,
for ME,
its all about
story telling…
doesn’t matter how
you
get
there…
XOX
Wendy; Yes! Each to their own!!!
Wendy…:)))))))))))
big hug
With you in spirit, Sean. We are SO proud of you, my friend!
Patricia
PANOS
right back at ya!!
xox
hugs
and
more…..
The process;
Just a little story of the process of working with film, please forgive the personal indulgence.
A few years ago my Father lay dying in Hospital (a late diagnosis of pancreatic cancer), it was all pretty sudden, I had a seven day old daughter so was on bit of a rollercoaster.
I had just made the 6 hour drive, leaving my wife and daughter, to visit my Dad in hospital, I sat by his side in a very public ward full of anger, despair, sadness, shock unsure how to face up to the fact He was dying, unsure how I could say all things I wanted to say to him, how to break that father/son relationship and really let go with that emotion and display of love. I had seen my brothers and sister open up before him and I suppose a bit like the last rights had told him how much they loved him and how they were going to miss him. This was a man who had worked through out the world, worked with many cultures and still received Christmas cards 40 years later from ex colleagues scattered globally. One of the first things I managed to say was “I am so angry with those doctors” ( a series of misdiagnosis). My Father’s response was “go and take some pictures” Grudingly I got up, I didn’t want to leave him.
I had my xpan loaded with trix, (the same camera I had used days earlier to photograph my new born daughter) I wandered off distraught. I started clicking away, looking through a viewfinder blurred by tears, I started to find subjects in the most mundane parts of the hospital, my eye and mind focused, just clicking away, no chimping, just happy to be shooting. It lifted my mood, it helped take the anger away, it helped restore calm.
It took along time to get that film processed, but wow when I did, they are the most powerfull images, mundane details of a hospital interior. The contacts hardly see the light of day, but to me they are the most powerful pics I have ever taken. I can hardly bring them out of the drawer without being knocked over, one day they will be printed with love by me.
The process of working film, to me, has a meditative effect of concentrating the mind, no distraction from chimping/histograms, just constantly judging the meter,compensating for backlight/frontlight/tone, composition, assessing the mood you want to tell, so many internal semi instinctual calculations being performed.
For me that camera and few rolls of film will be hard to surpass.
aitken..
yes….
the mystery rolls,
are always treasures…
beautiful story..
:)
**
Ian;
Wow; any response I make to your words is just going to fade into insignificance. So I think a simple “thank you” will suffice.
aitken… beautiful story. Genuinely moving.
However, I would bet that if you had left the hospital that day with D200 or something like it and gone shooting with all that emotion and love and sadness… today you’d look at those images in thumbnail form, with the same powerful “knocked over” bit of love you have with the film images. It’s not the medium. It’s the moment.
Whilst on line at this ungodly hour of 4.30am, just to let all you Burnians know, I had an exhibition open last night in Norwich, Norfolk, UK. It went alright, a little bit quite, I was competeing with the semi finals of Wimbledon (thats what my excuse is). I sold a couple of prints, so I have covered costs. Its quite a moment, after all the rush and panic to get the prints done and up, the gallery ready, the drinks sorted, change of clothes in the nearest loo, to open the doors to the public. There is a big press article going out today, so fingers crossed for the duration of the exhibition numbers will pick up.
I now have to get a second set of prints to the VisitBritain Visitor centre, No1 Regents street, London for an exhibition there. This one starts on Monday 6th and runs for a week. So if any of you are in the area please drop in and have a look.
Sean good luck with you China exhibition.
Cheers
Ian
Michael,
I am sure, that is the case, certainly there is nostalgia kicking around when I pick up the contacts or wave those sheets of film around.
Cheers
Ian
Ian, thank you for sharing such a personal, such a powerful story. Someday I hope to see those images. Might you ever consider creating a Blurb book of them? And if you do, would you please let us know and let it be available for us to buy? I already know that is a book I would want to have. I sense it would help me get through tough times.
Patricia
Wow, Ian. I just saw your post about the exhibits. Congratulations! Now I wish I lived in the UK ;=)
Patricia
Ian and Sean; congratulations on both your exhibitions!!! Good stuff!
Patricia,
thanks for your thoughts, for me it still needs a little time to begin to look at the pics with a bit objectivity. I know there is a fashion for introspection (tracey emin etc) but I need to make sure they stand up by themselves before being passed out into the world as they mean so much to me.
Ian
I understand, Ian. Take your time. This cannot and must not be rushed. It hits too close to the bone for that.
Patricia
Thanks Ross.
Fingers crossed for getting some exposure and commissions.
I just heard some national british newspapers are paying photojournalists £70 a day…….
“£70 a day” I recently had a music mag want to use pictures of mine and offerred me the princely sum of; wait for it; a credit line!
Mind you £70 isn’t too bad when converted to our NZ dollar (about $NZ180) :-))
Republican Sarah Palin just QUIT……..
( missed not so secret reasons below ):
0. Bombay video offered her to be The President
-1. Guitar player/Rapper for Cavemen left to shoot Venice leaving the appealing vacancy
Velibor,
All I try to say;
All before imiage is called life, image is called photography.
For you impostant is what is before image for 70%. For me 100%. This is my life. My life is very important to me. I really like my life. But for life We don’t need a film in camreas. But if we talked about “photography” (images) and I was sure we talked about it, the images quality is important for 100%.
Even if you don’t want have any quality.
Lack of quality is quality also.
dont’t care about quality is quality also.
Of course the part before picture is even more important than a image, there will be no images if we dont have the part before, but we talked about films and mediums.
All I would like to say in this topic is if so many don’t care abut images quality why we don’t stay with the Niépce’s technick?
Velibor I hope you don’t mind me this missunderstanding comments. Nothing against you :)
Just my crazy thoughts.
peace
Sean, I saw your tweets about the exhibition: congratulations to you and Ian!
and happy 4th of July to all who celebrate it…come on wake up, cold beers and bbqs are waiting for you! ;)
Today we celebrate AMERICA!!!
AMERICA, AMERICA,AMERICA
VIVA !!!
P.S Thank you America, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA…what not to love!!!
WE ARE CITIZENS OF THE WORLD and today it’s all about USAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Enjoy.
Mr.Ian and Mr.Sean,
we are sending good energy.
We believe in you.
You are in our hearts.
VIVA !!!
BURNIANS,
I LOVE YOU ALLLLLLL
happy 4th all you US folks..
here’s to shooting something in your own voice today – whatever the medium..
Patricia,
Thanks for your blog post about the workshop. I have been waiting for it.
Love what you had to say. Especially since both of my previous attempts at studying with Nachtwey were cancelled…I’ll keep trying!
From Andrew Steiner:
In case anyone is interested in seeing the original print: andrewsteinerphotography.com/icecream.html
———————————-
So, one takes a perfectly exposed picture to make an over-exposed one. Why not over-expose it in the first place, Easiest thing to do with a dig camera… No art if done this way !?!?
PS: I was just writing Cathy Scholl: Why isn’t David featuring any photos that would fit in the genre we have come so much to admire him for. Why so much fine art, conceptualism, oddball essays? This is all good, but so overwhelmingly represented. IMO.
Thank you America, UNITED STATES OF AMERICA…
yikes…
oh please…sorry civi , u obviously dont live here…:(
http://patricialaydorsey.blogspot.com/2009/07/seeing-with-new-eyes.html
Oops, thanks Cathy, almost missed that.
Patricia, thanks for writing it up. Too bad the spirit and pushing of these workshops can’t be duplicated on BURN, where too much featured work, especially the how (the scultpure holding it all up, as James N. would say), is left unquestionned.
Any country that has in its midst a DAH, and rescued Panos from punk delirium… Is a great country!
Yeah, you bet, warts and all:
LONG LIVE THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA!
HAPPY 233RD AMERICA!
and Panos, some of us love Sarah ;-)
Long live Humanity!
Long live art, enlightenment, understanding, love, reason, peace, democracy, liberty, equality, brotherhood!
Rock on!
and Panos, some of us love
Sarahthat remarkably unenlightened woman. ;-)There you go Akaky… fixed that for you. ;^}
ok…then…
happy 4th y’all…
and i’ll try to stay away from politics…
not a promise, but i’ll try…
:))))))))))))
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.digitaljournalist.org/issue0412/images/pb_head.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.digitaljournalist.org/issue0412/extremeasia_intro.html&usg=__hXBZrfnNaUYPMYNXzZ46obYKnV0=&h=225&w=300&sz=20&hl=en&start=1&um=1&tbnid=uWpmSOBpwIv-wM:&tbnh=87&tbnw=116&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dphilip%2Bblenkinsop%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1C1GGLS_enUS311US311%26sa%3DX%26um%3D1
Thanks to Andrew Steiner for posting a link to the ice cream shot as seen on his website. Night & day! On his website the exposure looks right on. And I now see that Andrew was the one whose Bar Mitzvah shot we’d seen earlier. I do love this man’s sense of humor!!!
patricia
“Long live art, enlightenment, understanding, love, reason, peace, democracy, liberty, equality, brotherhood!”
But not sisterhood? How very unPC of you, Michael ;-)
PC? Who said anything about being PC?
….PC: “political correct”…
hmmmm
http://www.generationaldynamics.com/cgi-bin/D.PL?d=ww2010.i.africa040822
…”There have always been clusters of genocidal wars in the West. The last major cluster of genocidal wars in the West was World War II. The most obvious example of World War II genocide was the German campaign to exterminate the Jews. It was also apparent in the Japanese genocidal treatment of American prisons. But during a crisis war, visceral attitudes becoming increasingly furious, until the war ends with a major explosion of rage. This happened in World War II, when America firebombed Dresden and Tokyo, and then dropped nuclear weapons on Japan. (I am not criticizing America for doing what they had to do in 1945; I’m simply saying it happened.)
So if you look at Africa narrowly, then it does seem that the continent is especially prone to genocidal wars. But if you widen your focus, you see that genocidal wars are part of being human, and Africa is not unique at all…”
so, go ahead with your fireworks…
celebrate like there is no tomorrow…
but…WHO is gonna liberate us from US????????????
that would be my 4th of july……..
( ohh, i see, im not that PC either )
:(
“…In fact, the Western world has had plenty of genocidal crisis wars.
For example, there were the Balkans wars of the 1990s. The acts of “ethnic cleansing” were performed by whites living in developed regions that included cosmopolitan cities like Belgrade and Sarajevo. As Yale professor Amy Chua described it, “In the [Serbian] concentration camps [of the early 1990s], the women prisoners were raped over and over, many times a day, often with broken bottles, often together with their daughters. The men, if they were lucky, were beaten to death as their [Serbian] guards sang national anthems; if they were not so fortunate, they were castrated or, at gunpoint, forced to castrate their fellow prisoners, sometimes with their own teeth. In all, thousands were tortured and executed….”
for all of u aspiring PJ’s out there:..
here is the WAR FORECAST BELOW….
http://www.generationaldynamics.com/cgi-bin/D.PL?s=vZERh4&d=ww2010.i.danger041120
Generations
Children born in these different periods grow up with characteristics unique to their generation. The differences between people in the same generation are much smaller than the differences between generations.
Here are the four generational archetypes:
Hero Generation.
These kids are born just before the crisis war, so they’re the young soldiers who fight in the war. The traumatized survivors rebuild a prosperous society from the ruins of the war, and impose austere rules to prevent any such war from every happening again. During the Awakening period, they’re the older generation in the generation gap. The Heroes are so traumatized by the war that they become too authoritarian and drive their children away from them. They grow old being lonely and estranged from their children. (Last American Hero generation was World War II’s “Greatest Generation.” The next hero generation are today’s youth, born in the 1980s-90s.)
Artist Generation.
These kids grow up during the crisis war, and suffer a kind of generational child abuse. Like all abused children, they grow up to be indecisive and risk-averse. They’re caught in the middle of the generation gap during the awakening, and they come to power during the Unraveling, where they paper over problems because of their indecisiveness. They grow old feeling guilty and being blamed for all the short-sighted “indecisive” compromise decisions they made. (America’s last Artist Generation was the “Silent Generation,” born during WW II.)
Prophet Generation.
These kids grow up during the Austerity period, and start early to rebel against their parents. By the Awakening period, they lead college students and disaffected youth into full-fledged political rebellion against their Hero generation parents. They win this battle because, after all, the Heroes retire and die. Arrogant, narcissistic and sure of themselves, they dominate society through the Unraveling period, when nothing, including the nation as a whole, is as important as the individual. Once the indecisive Artists retire, the Prophets’ arrogance and rage against their now-deceased parents turns to indignation and rage against their Hero parents’ old enemies in the last crisis war. With all the old compromises unraveled, the Prophets lead the nation into a new crisis war. (America’s last Prophet generation was the Baby Boomers, born after WW II.)
Nomad Generation.
These kids grow up during the social turmoil of the Awakening period, and become angry, disaffected youth. Throughout Anglo-American history, the Nomads have been shown to have the highest crime rate. They spend their lives in the shadow of the powerful Prophet generation. The Prophets excoriate the disaffected Nomads, and the Nomads return the favor by hating the older Prophets. And the Nomads end up being more powerful than the Prophets during the next crisis war, because although Prophets provide the vision, Nomads pick and choose among the Prophets and decide what vision to follow. Remarkably, some of the world’s worst dictators are early Nomads (born 16-25 years after the end of the last crisis war), including Adolf Hitler, Josef Stalin, Leon Trotsky, Osama bin Laden, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, and Shamil Basayev (the guy who masterminded 2004’s Beslan school massacre). While Prophets are visionaries, Nomads are doers, and they implement the programs that lead the nation into the next crisis war. They blame the crisis war on the Prophets, and grow old becoming bitter and reclusive.
ok…mr Akaky…
do u get that its not about Bush or Kerry or Obama or Hitler or Milosevij..or whatever,,,..
read mr.Xanakis explanation below…
is that PC enough for you??????????
Most important rule of all: Do not let politics influence your analysis. I’ve accomplished this on my web site, but my experience is that almost everyone is either pro-Bush or anti-Bush and lets those feelings influence his opinions. To understand Generational Dynamics you must understand that America would be in the same place today if Al Gore had been President the last four years, and that forecasts for the future would be the same if John Kerry had won in November, 2004. If you don’t understand that, then you’re wasting your time trying to learn Generational Dynamics.
On D-day in 1944, tens of thousands of American forces poured onto the beaches of Normandy, where they were massively slaughtered by the Germans. This American willingness to sacrifice so many thousands of young men was as much “suicide” as the kamikaze pilots were and today’s suicide terrorists are. Those Americans, certainly in the first wave, knew that they were going to die, and yet they did as they were told in order to win the war for their families back home, to preserve America and its way of life — altruistic suicide.
no difference than todays palestinian altruistic suicides….none at all…
Nothing special, just a small-time 4th of July Parade. Come one come all. http://twoeightproject.wordpress
Genocide and crisis wars
Crisis wars are the worst kinds of wars, full of genocide and atrocities. They occur in every society and nation every 70-90 years, the maximum length of a human lifespan. America has had two such wars since its founding: WW II, in which America firebombed and destroyed entire cities like Dresden and Tokyo, and even dropped two nuclear weapons on Japanese cities; and the Civil War, in which northern General Sherman marched through Georgia with a devastating scorched earth campaign.
Other American wars (Vietnam, Korea, WWI, etc.) were highly political, and not nearly so genocidal, and civilians in particular are protected as much as possible.
soooooooo……… how can we change this world?????????????????
Answer: more fireworks…………
sorry to spoil the party… but i see no reason to be PROUD of being “independent”
from the british or anyone…
Its not America the problem,its not the Arabs the problem… its not the Africans that are “uncivilized”..
its the HUMAN BEING that needs work…
ALL CIVILISATIONS COMMITTED THE SAME CRIMES AND GENOCIDES when they could…….
…. but i would blame Nixon or the Bush regime for the NON CRISIS WARS………..
the so called “unnecessary NON CRISIS WARS”……
there are the WARS THAT WE CANNOT AVOID (WWII or the CIVIL WARS)…
BUT THE POLITICIANS WARS?????????? like Vietnam or Iraq?
…sorry Akaky, but im trying hard to be PC here…
and that is not even my theories… im not that smart…im just a messenger…
http://www.generationaldynamics.com/cgi-bin/D.PL?s=NNcDSl&d=ww2010.i.050718pape#genocide
“Alaskans are dismayed yet not surprised that Governor Palin is abandoning her obligations to our great state. Sarah Palin’s decision to step down as governor is a shock to Alaskans, coming at a time when leadership is needed secure a gas pipeline and address rising unemployment. Palin’s lack of commitment to her sworn obligation to serve her term to the best of her ability is a betrayal to all Alaskans,” said Patti Higgins, Chair of the Alaska Democratic Party.
let’s be governor
at least
at least for a while
when things get rough
real heroes run
run
run
real heroes run and hide
patriots shirk their duty
patriots blame others
patiots wave the flag and whine
Happy Independence Day, Sarah!
Don’t let the door hit ya
emcd
I’m always using my own voice when shooting, wether personal stuff, or doing a family portrait. I make family portraits for a living, and I adore what I do, I’m a lucky guy.
Today I photographed an extended family. Grandpa, Baba, two grown kids with spouses and grandchildren.
Sorry, no link, I’m home from the studio now, if anyone is interested email me glafleurphoto@shaw.ca. I love the fact that people trust me to do this for them, and that it is so important to them that they will pay me big whacks of money to do it. Money is not the yardstick for the worth of a photograph, but as was recently pointed out on the “ice cream social” comments, putting your money where your mouth is perhaps is indeed at least some indicator.
After the 10.30 am portrait, my group came back for a viewing at 1pm, gave me a lovely order, shook my hand and told me how much they loved the pics and how much fun they had doing them. What more could you ask?
A family portrait can be so much more than just an image of a whole bunch of people standing together. The grouping, the body language, the shared expressions, even the clothing choice all contribute to creating an icon of not just what the family looks like, but how they relate to each other, and the deep connection that exists between families. If I’m lucky, my portrait goes some way to that end. This extended family, like many, are spead out and rarely come together in one place at the same time. The photograph becomes a very precious artifact, perhaps representing the last time they were all in one place at the same time.
Love my life
Gordon L
ohhh michael… who will remember Sarah Palin 20 or 100 years from now???
i would say 20 minutes from now…..
i will totally miss her PORN STAR looks though….:)))))))
Panos, relax, you’re dredging up a lot of years of bad Karma. Wish it could be better but on-line expertise tends to make us move back rather than forward. Nixon’s dead. Obama has a chance to beat the Bush/Nixon thing if we will just give it a chance.
Lucky for all of us he’s got the Chicago thing going.
sarah’s video here ( after popular demand )
John & Sarah rap
SARAH Palin AND TURKEY LOVE BELOW…
( please be advised… may disturb children..)
There’s just so much to be proud of! ;^}
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8134741.stm
Cue Lee Greenwood!
” Nixon’s dead. Obama has a chance to beat the Bush/Nixon thing if we will just give it a chance.”
Paul… :))))
sorry i choose not to relax…
my girlfriends father is DEAD BECAUSE OF NIXON….
THOUSANDS OF INNOCENT AMERICANS AND VIETNAMESE DIED BECAUSE OF the REPUBLICAN FAKE WARS….
sorry , i wont relax….
Paul, we all know WHO KILLED JFK……..
but, i agree…….. Obama…yes Obama……..
yes I GIVE HIM NOT ONLY ONE CHANCE…….. but a million “chances”……..
Republicans STARTED ALL WARS IN THE NAME OF MONEY………..
IN THE NAME OF ALL MY VIETNAM VETERANS… ALL MY VETS…ALL MY HOMMIES THAT ARE HOMELESS
RIGHT NOW…RIGHT THIS MINUTE down in venice beach………….
starving while you and me enjoying our fucking barbeques and beer and fireworks……..
how can i not be Angry when my brothers are dying in Iraq,and Afghanistan
how can i not be Angry when my country is in recession?
how can i not be Angry when my brother Scottie (vietnam vet)lives in the streets while that fucking
DICK Cheney Halliburton bitch is free????????????
living in a palace???????????????????
Whow.
ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh my godddddddddddddddddddd!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
click here:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article6290978.ece
Shameeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/us_world/Duty-Calls-N-Texas-Soldier-Battles-in-Pink-Undies—.html?corder=&pg=10
thank you GEORGE BUSH……….
now go back to your beers…… numb ………fuck it …
i give up…….
either bring our kids back……..
or SUPPORT THEM……………
see Paul???????????
see what i mean??????????
see??????????
do u fucking see???????????
yes.. im PROUD OF SPECIALIST ZACHARY BOYD…….
DO YOU SEE HIS RED TSHIRT AND “LOVE N.Y” UNDERWEAR??????????
why ??????
why???????/
look at the soldier in the middle……
look at his tennis shoes…….. no socks………
PRIDE???????
THE CITY OF LA SPENT 10 MILLION DOLLARS TWO WEEKS AGO FOR THE LAKERS PARADE…
we all proud of Kobe Bryant……no doubt…
but 10million dollars??????????
( and we cant afford 5 dollar pants for our hero ZACHARY??????)
HYPOCRITES…
(we are all are……. shame)
Something a little deeper than my last youtube feature.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XaI5IRuS2aE&feature=PlayList&p=C425022EBD3EACB0&index=0&playnext=1
Thanks Woody.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=few4kiKjNzw
thanks bobby
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWkWSLEW-Ds&feature=related
this one for GWBush…
( ohhh sorry , dedicated to mr.DICK too )
again.. watch mr Nixon bowling…..
Come you masters of war
You that build the big guns
You that build the death planes
You that build all the bombs
You that hide behind walls
You that hide behind desks
I just don’t want you to know
I can see through your masks
You that never done nothin’
But build to destroy
You play with my world
Like it’s your little toy
You put a gun in my hand
And you hide from my eyes
And you turn and run farther
When the fast bullets fly
Like Judas of old
You lie and deceive
A world war can be won
You want me to believe
But I see through your eyes
And I see through your brain
Like I see through the water
That runs down my drain
You fasten all the triggers
For the others to fire
Then you set back and watch
While the death count gets higher
Then you hide in your mansion
While the young people’s blood
Flows out of their bodies
And is buried in the mud
You’ve thrown the worst fear
That can ever be hurled
Fear to bring children
Into the world
For threatening my baby
Unborn and unnamed
You ain’t worth the blood
That runs in your veins
How much do I know
To talk out of turn
You might say that I’m young
You might say I’m unlearned
But there’s one thing I know
Though I’m younger than you
Even Jesus would never
Forgive what you do
Let me ask you one question
Is your money that good
Will it buy you forgiveness
Do you think that it could
I think you will find
When your death takes its toll
All the money you made
Will never buy back your soul
And I hope that you die
And your death’ll come soon
I will follow your casket
In the pale afternoon
And I’ll watch while you’re lowered
Down to your deathbed
And I’ll stand o’er your grave
‘Til I’m sure that you’re dead
ok … STAY PROUD MY FRIENDS………..
HAPPY 4TH……..
Panos, so what are you on this afternoon (no, I do not want a pint of it!) :-))))
Is it generational dynamics or is it…. Republicans?
make up your mind, but please, do not come back to tell us! :-)
and this one, just for you:
I’m sure glad this forum is moderated now. No telling what might be posted if it weren’t.
Jim… obviously there is no moderation …
you’re still here…..no?
:))))
Herve…:)
this afternoon?
i’m high on PRIDE..
:(
Jim..
i’m teasing..
please stay……..
and…Akaky & Jim…….
sorry for the anti-republican sentiment…..
its the moon……
i dont really mean it….:(
…now i’m reading again…i see clearly that Jim wasnt really sarcastic…
thanks bud….
Give it a rest…………
Ok, ready for the lovefest? with permission from ACME:
THIS LOVE WILL LAST FOREVER (Panos, I believe it’s Jim at 2’33”. Morrison, that is)
hmmmmmmm…
interesting…. that must be jim at 2’33″….. nice…
CIVILIAN
i miss you too..
love forever
kat~
KATHLEEN…
where have you been??? missing you…come back, come back
hugs, david
Peace everyone…. peace.
(Hope that wasn’t too “PC.”) ;^}
July 5th: watching Andrew’s essay again and celebrating people TAKING pictures, not making them….
If you are visiting with family this weekend, make some nice portraits of them. You will be glad you did.
Small town 4th of July. :)
http://www.39thframe.com/redwhitebluekid_a.jpg
Big town 4th of July.
http://upload.pbase.com/image/114637146/original
I like the brown bag. Hardest thing we had was lemonade! ;)
That’s what I love about photography. All the little incidents and accidents you did not plan or did not see. It’s like a 50/50 deal between you and the world. If you get 2 or 3 things right, the rest will follow…. Sometimes!
Just a snap, but the spirit is there, and even the cable-car (ain’t that San Francisco enough?)! :-)
Not everyone is partying on the 4th of July…
http://johnvink.com/photo.php?z=VIJ1995009W00010-31,74,1
John, thanks for showing us yours. Nice.
luv these three pictures…
luv you guys for posting these…
id have to say i was doing what jvink was doing… no fun. prefer brown bag ;)
i guess im civilian today.
missing katiecakes, andrew b, dimitri…
John V – it’s going to make me crazy – who took the photo that yours is reminding me of – an older person doing that stretch, somewhere like Venice Beach or Coney, color I think…
No town 4th of July:
http://www.hydeimages.com/ourbestdays/
Since it’s a bit quiet here I thought I’d run something past you all and get your views.
I’ve been thinking (a labour intensive task for me!) about documentary photography and people photography in general, while doing some editing and discussing the topic with a mate yesterday.
I came to the conclusion that in general, probably the most underestimated factor in “people” photography is the ability to recognise an access opportunity and to have the ability to get into the situation and maximise the potential of it.
I hate to think how many times I’ve missed opportunities that I didn’t recognise at the time but do when I think back about it later. Whether it be not recognising the opening, or maybe as simple as not being able to overcome shyness (in my earlier years) to take advantage of the opportunity.
I missed out on an opportunity on Saturday night, this time not through too much fault of my own, but if I had been smarter…. I’m still kicking myself about it because I know it would have provided the photo ops I needed to push my project forward. Hopefully I’ll be over it by today, but it sure annoys the hell out of me :-)
Cheers everyone
Hi All! Been away for a bit… Then couldn’t post last night (was getting moderated!?) Is this going to happen again? I guess I will find out when I hit submit! Happy (belated) 4th to all the ‘Mercans out there… (and that’s coming form a Redcoat!)
It was nice being out of range from the internet for a while, but of course I missed you all and the constant bickering terribly ;). I’m picking up there were some problems with comments on the site, hence the new log in. Are others getting moderated? Or was it just because it was my first post after registering?
Good news. While I was away I was very pleased to find out that “Living with the Dead” was picked as one of the four final projects for this years CARE Humanitarian Photography Award. I am really pleased as I greatly respect the work of CARE International as well as there use/support of photography. The work will be exhibited at this years Visa Pour L’image which is obviously a great honour! The project also received an Honourable Mention in this years PX3 Prix de la Photogrpahy in Paris.
The last two weeks were spent in Peru with a group of dentists medics and students from Loma Linda University (CA). Jess and I were hired to produce a multimedia piece following their trip. It will take a little while to put that together, but I did also run a little personal project in the town we were staying in (Cascas). It was a great little place. Due to its remote location it has never really been touched by tourism and retains a lot of its traditional charm. Images can be seen at on my site at.
http://www.jameschance.com > Projects > Cascas
So what’s new around here? I enjoyed Andrews work. Strong classic images. Great use of light and colour! The cow piece was interesting too…. pretty freaky!!
Tom
What great stuff, and what a great example of the kind of photograph make possible with the new batch of waterproof point and shoot cameras. I love point and shoot cameras.
Wow! looks like i’m “safe” Thanks Anton!
Nice Stuff Tom. That’s the way to spend a holiday weekend!
Ross. I feel you. Its a desperate feeling knowing that you missed something and you will never get a second chance… My personal take on this is that you will only tolerate yourself doing so a certain amount of times before you don’t let it happen again. And in most tricky situations in this game the old adage always rings true… Its easier to ask forgiveness than to get permission.
Ross
The issues you raise are something I struggle with constantly, as I’m sure many others do.
I think in the end, we all need to follow your hearts, and not be afraid to be who we are. If who you are is not a naturally forceful energetic person who is not intimidated by anything, then that is who you are. Embrace it. We need to find ways of working and causes that resonate with our vision rather than try to mold ourselves to fit some other ideal.
As much as I admire the work of the DAHs of the world, I cannot imagine living that sort of a life. I like being home at night with my family too much.
I tend to be able to get in and out of situations by being pretty laid back and completely open in my intent. This case was a simple misunderstanding. I was invited to an “after-gig” party that that would have given me the “quieter” shots I needed. I didn’t get the address, was going to get it later, but they had already ducked away thinking they had already given me the address etc etc etc!
Of course it was a house-warming party too and no-one at the gig knew the new address. I couldn’t leave the gig early because I’d promised the last band I’d take some shots of them performing so had to stay to the end.
I try to learn from my mistakes and just make sure it doesn’t happen again, but it’s annoying for the days after such a mistake. I just have to give myself a quick uppercut and get on with it!
I’m going back to continue some work in a remote little seaside village (called Marakopa) here in a few days and using the contacts I established last time while doing a story for a mag. No missed opportunities this time!!!
It’s a wonderful place that still resembles NZ in the 70’s; mostly retired folks. The sun-dried tomato and chardonnay set haven’t moved in yet to ruin the atmosphere. Many once quiet seaside settlements have been changed by people moving in and building million dollar holiday homes. The locals move out and the sense of community disappears.
I want to document it before it changes. There are a few new dwellings being built, but it still retains the charm of yesteryear.
Tom,
That was a trip! Very moving. Touching. Thanks for sharing.
-M
emcd,
I believe it was our illustrious host. In my minds eye I’m seeing a photo of some old dude in a similar pose in I think Miami, or Havana?
Magnum is down at the moment, have to check later.
Herve, your pics always make me miss SF. You are becoming quite a master of the candid crowd shot!
My addition to the July 4th shots…
http://www.pbase.com/image/114654018
Patricia
Patricia;
What gave you the inspiration for the mirror series of images? I’m intrigued.
Cheers
I like your shot, Patricia, very unassuming (a lot less than the table linen!!!), your eye as tender as the feeling we get between the 2 young girls. And with a little visual hook with the mirrored image, but nothing to pointed, too striven. Maybe they are just holding position while you take the shot, and yet, doesn’t lose its candor.
I took 2 shots, submitted the second to BURN.
Tom Hyde, great series. I have no family here in US. Just a lonesome street photographer! :-))))
I know, open source was probably very annoying and disruptive for admins of magnum archives, but it was something special. Well.. was…
Whatever..
I’m going take some snaps as everyday.
I’ve been out of the loop over the past days, but I came across your comment about working in the darkroom Panos….very funny. My high school photo teacher loved Last of the Mohicans, so he played the soundtrack everyday in the lab…good stuff but got quite old after a while. Was never able to lure a girl in there though…:-) :-)
After a long time with quick visits, just watching, I am glad to post here again.
Had the opportunity to see a couple of pics from previous posts.
Tom, your beautiful series sadly remind me of the two weeks I still have ahead before going home and seeing my family again… Nice mood.
Patricia, long time we don’t talk! Nice composition. What were these young girls thinking at this frozen moment?
James, congrats for the recognition of your project! Have been visiting your website and really liked photo no. 2 on the series in Peru.
All the best!
Ari B.
HERVE…PATRICIA…JIM..YOUNG TOM
nice snaps of the fourth….all put together, they are a nice little group essay…thanks…
ROSS…
i do not think you should dwell too much on missed opportunities…great photography only happens when you are in the mood to do it…it is not what you miss, but what you make…most of us feel a bit shy when photographing strangers…the easiest way out of that is to not be a stranger…and i think that is all about one thing…eye contact…people read you through your eyes…if you are sincere and put out good vibes, others will feel it immediately…
cheers, david
Ross, if you look at my Falling Into Place photo essay you’ll see me looking in a hand mirror in the cover shot. I took that pic in early January, but the idea to use the hand mirror as a prop in a portrait series of strangers took four months to gestate.
After I’d finished taking photos for my self portrait project –or as it turned out, after I’d ALMOST finished taking those photos–I was looking around for something new to shoot. On the drive to NYC to meet with DAH for my final edit/Blurb book layout, the idea for “Mirror Me” (and the name) hit me like a bolt out of the blue. I then bought a cheap hand mirror in a Manhattan drugstore and went right out for a five-hour shoot on Fifth Avenue and in Central Park. It was so much fun to have an excuse to go up to anyone I thought looked interesting that I came back home to Detroit and continued the project. I’d guess by now I have at least 500 possible keepers.
What has been cool about this project is how much my subjects seem to enjoy it. I always give them my card and offer to email them the pic if they want. A good number of folks follow up on it…
Patricia
Young Tom, thanks for taking me back to those luscious days of childhood. I love seeing the world through your eyes!!
Patricia
A great listen..I’d love to transcribe these if I find time..Candid Recordings LP
Famous Photographers Tell How – Cartier – Bresson Speaks 1958
http://tedbarron.com/BWF-June-2009/23-Henri-Cartier-Bresson.mp3
Famous Photographers Tell How – Weegee Speaks 1958
http://tedbarron.com/BWF-June-2009/22-Weegee.mp3
Gordon – your loving your life so much is an inspiration!
James C – big Congrats
Michael – I can’t find that image on DAH’s page..did you find it?
DAH – who took the image of an older man stretching, knee on the ground, leg and arm outstretched? color..sort of around looking a corner I think..somewhere like Venice Beach or Coney.
Ross – the possible missed opportunities that I encounter most (and am trying to teach myself to avoid) are the moments when I have the 35mm camera raised, image framed, but something isn’t exactly as I want it to be..and i start thinking and waiting, believing that there will be another second when things will improve..and then they don’t and I realize I didn’t take even one frame of something pretty amazing that may have worked. I shoot so few frames, as i have long trained myself to only shoot exactly what I want and when I actually see it (blessing/curse of rangefinder use and MF film)..am growing to embrace more serendipity.
Hi David, AH,
just picked up a copy of professional photographer here in the UK, they are at last trying to up their game and really write about professional photographer issues and not just wedding photography. In their attempt they have a new editor onboard.
Low and behold there is an interview with your good self.
cheers
Ian
Patricia: Great concept with the “mirror me” series. The opening shot on your website is great! Certainly the best of the set. Like it! I assume you will be continuing with this theme?
Ian: So what’s all this about £70 a day? Have all of the papers agreed to this?…
Hi James,
a friend of mine is a highly respected designer/art director he works from Norwich but most of his clients are in London, I was having a chat with him about the state of photography. He mentioned he had interviewed a graphic designer who had come up from London to see him as she wanted to move from London. Her background is photography (degree in photography then masters in photojournalism) She had drifted into design as she had an aptitude for it and she couldn’t live in London being a freelance photographer for the National papers at £70 per day, that was the going rate. This might be the rate for rookies but still it seems a pretty tragic state of affairs.
Cheers
Ian
Is that before or after taxes!!?? Criminal.
Ian
£70 per day –> that’s what many freelance photographers earn per month, or less here in India!
BODO…
i am finally in the clear to do more editing with you….skype me when you have a chance…so sorry for the delay….
cheers, david
IAN AITKEN…
sorry i missed you in London….i vaguely remember doing an interview with that magazine, but never saw the result…i hope it made some sense…
cheers, david
emcd…on missing shots
when shooting film, unless you are on someone elses dime, there is this little voice you may or may not be aware of that keeps warning you “it’s a buck every time you move your shutter finger”, or “I think I have only 4 frames left so I’d better make it count”. I also can’t tell you how many many times, especially shooting medium format with only 10 or 15 shots on a roll where I ran out of film just before the moment peaked. Or, I tried to grab a shot and the focus or exposure was off.
I appreciate the more deliberate approach that working with film demands, especially working with medium format. I also love framing the world through a Leica viewfinder. The gear we choose plays a huge part in our image making. However I make photographs with digital cameras now now that I never would or could have before.
ERICA…
it is always a good idea to go ahead and shoot the “second best picture”…waiting for the “best one” is like everything else in life…might be a long wait!!!
racking my brain on the stretching shot…i know it….this will drive me crazy until i remember…gee thanks…
David,
FYI…speaking of editing…I re-sent the Rodeo photos I sent you last week. This time I added your DAH address in case the AOL wasn’t working and I was told your DAH box is full.
David Ah,
yep sorry to have missed you too, I was running around like a headless chicken putting the final touches to an exhibition. I trust you all had a great time. Maybe when you are next over or if I get the chance to head over stateside.
Cheers to all
Ian
http://behindthephoto.org/klavs-bo-christensens-too-much-photoshop-disqualification
Take a rest…
David
I skyped you but couldn’t get in touch. Will try again tomorrow.
DAH..
not my fault :) I’m going crazy too..let’s blame it John Vink who posted this yesterday..
Not everyone is partying on the 4th of July…
http://johnvink.com/photo.php?z=VIJ1995009W00010-31,74,1
DAH: Indeed it is all about the eyes! I was up north of Bucharest in the countryside over the weekend with Leslie Hawke (mother of American actor Ethan Hawke) at her summer place and the village was full of peasants (as all Romanian villages are) operating a good 100 years in the past and indeed it was all about smiling and the firm handshake with the men and conversing in their language if you can (which I can) and showing genuine passion and respect, waving to the children after you take their picture etc. I always remember the scene in War Photographer where Nachtwey is taken to a gathering at a grave yard I think in Kosovo where villagers are mourning their relatives, and as he arrives he makes a calm gesture with his hand from his head like a salute to the men. The people immediately know Nachtwey is showing them respect and connecting with them. There is the unspoken agreement that he is there to photograph to expose the crimes of war to the world. If you behave in such a way in sensitive situations and then the way I described above in other daily life situations. The doors do open up quite quickly!
Davin Ellicson
Erica,
Still can’t access all the galleries at Magnum. Can you?
Thanks Erica. It had taken me a while to figure out who “emcd” was. Sorry… bit slow today
Erica,
I take the blame… hehehehehe…
Marcin,
Was that link intended to equate shooting digital to over-manipulation of digital files in Photoshop?
Hi all..
just a heads up that I transcribed the Henri Cartier Bresson interview into a written word document and you can find it on my site http://ericamcdonaldphoto.com under ‘scribbling in the dark’, along with the other photographers’ talks (Gilden, Richards, Fusco, Peress, Parr, etc..)
It was easier for me to fully digest what he was saying by reading than listening alone, and I figured it would be good to have it out there for anyone wanting to reference it down the line, as well as anyone who has trouble with HCB’s accent.
If I get time, I’ll transcribe the Weegee one as well and let you all know.
*******************************
John V..
do you know who shot the other image I am referring to?
Michael
I only checked a couple, but yes.
James, yep emcd is me now..but ya’ll can still call me Erica :)
http://www.magnumphotos.com/Archive/C.aspx?VP3=ViewBox_VPage&VBID=2K1HZSVJ2IC&IT=ZoomImage01_VForm&IID=2S5RYDIL1EUG&PN=5&CT=Search
;)))
Erica, You are too cool. Thanks for the transcription!
David;
Thanks for that. Actually it’s the interaction with other people I enjoy the most, thank goodness this last “miss” was all down to me not getting the address straight away (a simple logistical mistake). But still annoying! In other words “I’ll get it later” which often means you miss out!
With the youth project I must intereact with people so they do know my intent. It’s a bit of a potential minefield because I’m photographing young people (13 years +), often without parents around. I always carry a number of A4 project overviews with me with all contact details and a link to pics, and always tell the kids to take it home to show their parents (and offer them pics). So far; after 5 months not a problem, but I want to nip any in the bud before they start!
I’ve been shooting pretty consistantly in the same music venue for around 5 months now and am practically becoming part of the furniture! Sometimes I get the pics I want; sometimes not, but being there so often has meant that contacts get made for other opportunities etc.
Patricia; Thanks for that, I’ve been intrigued by this project.
Cheers
Ross there is no mileage in over analysis of processes and results, leave that for the critics
Brian,
I am curious what you think about.
ECMD.
Did you previously study to be a court reporter by chance? :))
You are GREAT at transcribing…I look forward to reading the new document.
David, John
Thank you for open Magnum’s archive. For me magnum is still a huge stimualtion. I was sad this morning when I saw a registering page.
But now I am happy man.
and for me Magnum is the best ice-cream in the world !!!
No kidding ,have you ever tried BURNIANS?
For me ,you are all “MAGNUM”, no matter what…
The JOURNEY is what life is all about …take it from a Civilian
who is still “traveling”…:)
When the journey finishes then …
I don’t know…
Don’t blame me…:))))))))))
cause I ain’t gonna take that blame!!!
P.S OUZO and cold BEER on me TODAY
Cause today I LOVE YOU ALLLLLL
KATIE…come on…I count on you,sword tongue.
Birthday anyone??? Happy Birthday :))) LOVE,LOVE,LOVE
Keep it BURNING
Marcin,
I am hyper-critical when I see images that have been manipulated too much, whether it is in Photoshop or the darkroom. Some would probably argue that I’m too critical. Since manipulating other peoples’ images in Photoshop is my day job, I try my hardest not to push my images too far, and am conscious when others do.
When I see that disqualified image, I see an image clearly pushed too far. I don’t think that should be used as an example of why not to shoot digital. That would be like condemning cars because someone made the Pinto. It should be used as an example of digital gone bad.
But if that was not your intent, then I am sorry I came across snippy.
— Correction. sorry I came across snippy, regardless of your intent.
Imants;
Yeah I know; thanks for that though. I just want to learn from mistakes thats all :-)
Cheers man.
Marcin, Brian re: too much photoshop
I have to agree with most of the comments on the link. The judges are out of line and ignorant of the technology. “out of the can” rendering does not exist. Even many simple point and shoot cameras give you jpg rendering choices. Stupidity. This is why I avoid contests.
Gordon, Is that all that much different than using filters in film photography? It’s all manipulation. Just because a tool can be misused, doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be used at all.
Frank boundries need to be pushed conceptually, aesthetically and technically otherwise it becomes “doi knia” same same but not so different …….. http://www.etrouko.com.au/imants.htm
Brian, I agree totally.
The example on the link is a bit overdone for my taste, but dis-qualified? Silly. Even simple point and shoot cameras often give you different rendering options for the jpgs. There is no such thing as “out of the camera”
It does seems a little too tempting for some to pump up the saturation and contrast, along with a host of other photoshop stuff. However it would be easy to argue that even a b/w conversion is a gross manipulation of an image, more so if you added noise and contrast to emulate over-developed fast b/w film. http://www.pbase.com/glafleur/image/113201802
sorry, ‘seem to be repeating myself. It happens when you get older.
I spent many hours in the darkroom getting it “right”. The balance of creating emphasis and changing the image in documentary work is a thin line but… the tools at your disposal today make pushing film, dodging and burning child’s play.
Look at image 9 of Andrew’s piece and you know the right side is burned down and so what! The “hand of god” burn is now vignette or graduated filter in Lightroom. It’s all a matter of taste and interpretation. Now you have the luxury of making a color image act like your mind’s eye sees it. We used to choose film types and exposure for that. Now we tweak our color balance, HSL and Presence, et.al. Control is ours!
We all want our images to reflect what our eyes and mind see. A photographer has always had to deal with what the camera gave him/her and made it what their vision told them what was in front of them.
Personally I don’t miss the darkroom.
pomara
Yes, we now have the control we only dreamed of with film. We now have to invent, and learn, and create a whole new language. How exciting.
Gordon, Marcin…& ALL…
i totally agree.
next u know… we will be forced to shoot ONLY color kodak film…
again…
B&W is the definition of “manipulation”…then…
even dodging & burning should be illegal…
experimenting with different fixers, developers, temperatures should be illegal…
Fake “purists”……….
yikes…..
… and before i get misunderstood… all im saying is this…….
who cares what u do on your darkroom or digi PSroom…
As long as it serves your vision…..As long as you are happy…
break all rules…..
viva Dali… fuck pictorialism, rules and restraints………
“i dont care how u did it as long as it speaks to me”………..
im tired of painters painting “perfect” , realistic flowers, tomatoes or murals for meat markets………….
viva Frida Kahlo…….
:)))))))
viva picasso
Eva, what sis you link to. Can’t access it.
Why can I not access Magnum galleries? David? John V?
Marcin, can you?
We don’t need no manipulation! ;)
http://www.39thframe.com/colorfailure.jpg
Sorry… “what did you link to…”
new works, good stuff … http://www.100eyes.org/
…??? michael?
i dont find any problem with any magnum link…?????
either chrome ( pc ) or safari mac..?
Both IE8 and Chrome… no go. I get to home page, click on DAH name, go to Portfolio, then Major Features… so far so good. Then I click on one of the features and I get this: The link you clicked on is invalid or expired. Please click Continue to return to the previous page. If you believe that you have received this message in error, please contact support
Clear your cache. Could be the problem.
…yep…. empty cache…
( im on chrome – pc- as we speak )……. no problem….
Just thought some of you may be interested in this link about Ed Kashi’s work. an interesting watch/listen.
http://lens.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/19/showcase-6/?hp
Cheers
Emptied cache. Still getting same message. Maybe didn’t empty properly? (Is that possible?)c
,,,,,,,,,,but !!!…… once again it’s all landscape view……… the portrait view is out of fashion?
or
is it too hard to turn the camera 90 degrees
Imants;
“is it too hard to turn the camera 90 degrees” Hmmm, not sure you’ll have to ask David because I’m sure I remember him saying he hardly ever uses portrait format!! :-))
Seriously though; you made me think, I shoot more naturally in landscape view and hardly ever use portrait format. Mind you, when I was shooting nature I used mostly portrait format!
Cheers
software for slideshows, video, www. sites like this is all basically governed by landscape view by default ….some can be changed others can’t
Imants; You’re talking to a tech dummy here! It recently took me an entire afternoon to work out how to embed music in a powerpoint presentation :-))
Ross, thanks for the link. Good stuff.
Powepoint is landscape by default ……. personally I have more portrait than landscape view stuff even the slideshow stuff
Yes Tom, great stuff at 100 Eyes. Worth a look all! Powerful stuff! That page turning kills me though… Good to see Charlie Mahoney’s stuff up there too.
All…….. can u see the FULL MOON………..?????????????
Full moon shining on the lake like melted buter on a big blue pancake. Ymmmmmm
Patricia
Andy Levin always does a good job putting things together at 100 Eyes. Always look foward to seeing what he gets together.
Yes, Brian, always well worth a look. As I mentioned earlier though the page turning really spoils the viewing for me though. Its not so much the effect itself, but having to manually drag the mouse every time. I guess I sound ridiculously lazy… But carpal tunnel could also be a risk, no?
Yep, That moon is shining high over the Rockies too.
Oops there really should have been a “;)” after that last CT statement… Don’t want to get taken too seriously out here! ;))
James, I didn’t have to drag. I just clicked on the corner, and that workerd.
Ah Nice! You’re right Brian. I didn’t realise you could do that.
all eyes on jim….. ha ha
LIL’ KIM LYRICS
“How Many Licks”
[Sisqo]
Hold up
So what you’re saying is, oh
(Niggaz got me pissed like Lil’ Kim)
You want to get freaky again, aight
A-ooh-ah-ooh
Oh, oh, oh, oh
[Lil’ Kim]
I’ve been a lot of places, seen a lot of faces
Ah hell I even fuck with different races
A white dude – his name was John
He had a Queen Bee Rules tattoo on his arm, uh
He asked me if I’d be his date for the prom
and he’d buy me a horse, a Porsche and a farm
Dan my nigga from Down South
Used to like me to spank him and cum in his mouth
And Tony he was Italian (Uh-huh)
And he didn’t give a fuck (Uh-huh)
That’s what I liked about him
He ate my pussy from dark till the mornin
Called his girl up and told her we was bonin
Puerto Rican papi, used to be a Deacon
But now he be sucking me off on the weekend
And this black dude I called King Kong
He had a big ass dick and a hurricane tongue
[Sisqo]
So, how many licks does it take till you get to the center of the?
(Cause I’ve got to know)
How many licks does it take till you get to the center of the?
(Tell me)
How many licks does it take till you get to the center of the?
(Oh, oh)
How many licks does it take till you get to the center of the?
(Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh)
[Lil’ Kim]
This verse goes out to my niggaz in jail
Beatin they dicks to the double-X-L; Magazine (uhh)
You like how I look in the aqua green? Get your Vaseline
Roll some weed with some tissue and close your eyes
Then imagine your tongue in between my thighs
[*Moans*] Baby.. ohh.. yes ohh!
Jailer.. open up.. cell, block, eight
[*sexual sounds*]
Alright nigga, that’s enough
Stop, look and listen; get back to your position
Kim got your dick hard, startin fights in the yard
Hotter than a Pop Tart fresh out of the toaster
Niggaz do anything for a Lil’ Kim poster
Eses, Bloods, Crips, all the thugs
Up North in the hole, they all wanna know
[Sisqo]
How many licks does it take till you get to the center of the?
(Tell me, ha)
How many licks does it take till you get to the center of the?
(Tell me, oh yeah)
How many licks does it take till you get to the center of the?
(Oh, oh)
How many licks does it take till you get to the center of the?
(Oh, oh, oh, oh)
[Lil’ Kim]
If you drivin in the street, hold on to your seat
Niggaz, grab your meat while I ride the beat
And if you see a shiny black Lamborghini fly by ya
(Shoom!) That’s me the Knight Rider
Dressed in all black with the gat in the lap
Lunatics in the street – gotta keep the heat
Sixty on the bezel, a hundred on the rings
Sittin pretty baby with a Cash Money bling
12 A.M. I’m on the way to club
After three bottles I’ll be ready to fuck
Some niggaz even put me on their grocery lists
Right next to the whip cream and box of chocolates
Designer pussy, my shit come in flavors
High-class taste niggaz got to spend paper
Lick it right the first time or you gotta do it over
Like it’s rehearsal for a Tootsie commercial
[Sisqo]
How many licks does it take till you get to the center of the?
(Tell me, ha)
How many licks does it take till you get to the center of the?
(Tell me, oh yeah)
How many licks does it take till you get to the center of the?
(Oh, oh)
How many licks does it take till you get to the center of the?
(Oh, oh, oh, oh)
How many licks does it take till you get to the center of the?
(Tell me)
How many licks does it take till you get to the center of the?
(Let me know, let me know)
How many licks does it take till you get to the center of the?
(Oh, oh)
How many licks does it take till you get to the center of the?
(Oh, oh yeah)
How many licks does it take till you get to the center of the?
(Yeah)
How many licks does it take till you get to the center of the?
How many licks does it take till you get to the center of the?
(Oh, oh)
How many licks does it take till you get to the center of the?
(Baby tell me)
How many licks does it take till you get to the center of the?
(Oh, oh, oh)
How many licks does it take till you get to the center of the?
As long as it serves your vision…..As long as you are happy…
break all rules…..
viva Dali… fuck pictorialism, rules and restraints………
—————————
mostly: as long as it is not artificial. Otherwise, you can photoshop all you want, and be happy and fuck dali, or whatever, but you haven’t broken any rule and actually followed the most established and crassiest one: give the public what they want.
Photoshopping, altering a picture has nothing to do with breaking rules, which is a bit harder and life-engaging than just pushing a few sliders up or down.
pictorialism
————
That’s exactly what the danish (?) guy in Marcin’s link did. If I remember pictorialism was a product of artists wishing to impart a painting quality on their photographs, implying that, if only photographed, places and people were lacking all the elements necessary for good artistry. IMO, most duly photoshopped pictures I see on websites, are pictorialist in the extreme, having nothing to do with vision, but with a preconceived idea of what a good picture (as in painting, not photo) looks like, or should be in order to sway the viewer.
panos you are fast becoming the new Jim of the forum with all this posting of drivel, try to edit yourself
michael, let’s try this.. i know it’s not the one erica is talking about, but i stumbled over it, was just kidding:
http://www.magnumphotos.com/CorexDoc/MAG/Media/TR3/F/M/8/Q/LON1165.jpg
imants..:)
i feel your anger…
hey babe…. im just a DJ………..
walk to another pub if u must….
please dont be hating….
just doing my job….
thats all…….
as jim said: “please feel free not to click on me”…….
or keep on hating…
u choose…
u r an adult ….i hope:(
Thanks for 110eyes link Tom, great stuff.
Ian
oops ment 100eyes
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFYQQPAOz7Y
just lose urself kid…
loosen up…… it will trigger ur prostate orgasm centa ( center )…..
trust master P….. he is looking out for u….
:))))))))))
Imants….
i hear u and i agree… BUT……
dont play the racist card on me…. please…..
just because im white,……. doesnt mean i cant “play” black music on you……
ok:::::::::::)
……. and imants… ( just for the history )……
i was “jim” wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy before “jim” was born……….
ok.. !
u were just not listening…….. ask everyone ……..ask DAH if u have to…….ok?
do your research before u attack and insult me……….
now…… apologize…… biatchhhhhhhhhhh
:))))))))\huge hug
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oMUuM4H0xU4&feature=related
new orleans biatch….
feel me?
Imants
July 7, 2009 at 1:12 am
panos you are fast becoming the new Jim of the forum………..
at least , im not becoming the new BORDER PATROL…. agent…….
although a vegan….. whats your beef??????/
come on , feed me or…….. hang the DJ…..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-fJ9ROrW08
every ME and every U…………..
U R WHAT U HATE………………….
dont forget that……
dont restrain yourself…..
Panos is on fire tonight!!!
beautiful moon..
a
purple
dance….
**
panos is full of something tonight…………
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eh0rAUwZSQ
babyyy…… did u forget to take your MEDS…..???????????
full
of
love….
xo
Imants…… again……….
im just doing my job…….
i could ignore u but thats not cool…………
love u!!!!!!!!!!
wendy……:)))))))))))
where is my mind?
obviously , i lost it in Jim Morrisons RV.:))))))
It is another form of spam doesn’t serve much of a function except to tie up a forum. As we know it will stay this way until either it all wears off of sleep overcomes panos
Brian
Yes I agree with you. For me this images was mainpulated too much. But also I think disqualification is ridiculous. If the images are pushed too far and looks not good they should be not taken into account like the rest of weak pictures.
Weak picture is weak picture.
But why disqualification?
Isn’t there a many great and maniulated picures awarded?
Why making a mess?
And also I have to agree with Gordon.
RAW file is…. hmmm….. raw?
When I shoot digitaly I use settings as “normal” because photoshop gives me better quality than camera body. But my settings should be satrurated.
When I work on films I have a many different kinds of films, saturated like velvia or normal, films with big grain or small garin with high contrast or small contast.
So I don’t see any difference.
Of course you can go too far with making correction, but it should be not disqualification if you not add or taken any part of image. Or change colors.
When I work digi in color and I don’t do any experiments, mostly for 98% if I dont have to correct an exposition my “manipulation” are 30% vibration, 10% saturation and 10% blacks from raw “normal” pictures.
When I shoot as B&W I work in color so I ahve to take of color and do exactly what I do in darkroom.
For me the rules for digital photography gives me films photography.
Michael
Yes, I have access :)
Imants…..
i have a theory , why its impossible 4U to ignore me…….
;-)
… but yes.. keep trying to convince everyone that you are Zorro…
or Chuck Norris…
please save this blog from Jim or me…….
do your ethnic cleansing…..
I’m spam…. moderate me…….. Report me……….
stone me……….. coz im outta weed….. and im mad……..
That’s not the problem the problem is finding other people’s posts between your spam, or most just give up and find something better to do. Have fun posting all your own ego crap, it seems you don’t really care about anyone but yourself.Time to get your hand off it Panos and consider others on the forum who would like to post without the spam.
They’ll stone you when you’re trying to be so good
They’ll stone you just like they said they would
They’ll stone you when you’re trying to go home
They’ll stone you when you’re there all alone
But I would not feel so all alone
Everybody must get stoned
They’ll stone you when you’re walking on the street
They’ll stone you when you’re trying to keep your seat
They’ll stone you when your walking on the floor
They’ll stone you when your walking to the door
But I would not feel so all alone
Everybody must get stoned
They’ll stone you when you’re at the breakfast table
They’ll stone you when you are young and able
They’ll stone you when you’re trying to make a buck
They’ll stone you and then they’ll say good luck
But I would not feel so all alone
Everybody must get stoned
Well They’ll stone you and say that it’s the end
They’ll stone you and then they’ll come back again
They’ll stone you when you’re riding in your car
They’ll stone you when you’re playing you guitar
Yes But I would not feel so all alone
Everybody must get stoned
Alright
Well They’ll stone you when you are all alone
They’ll stone you when you are walking home
They’ll stone you and then say they’re all brave
They’ll stone you when you’re send down in your grave
But I would not feel so all alone
Everybody must get stoned
Panos people come to this site to check out stuff about photography etc, but they are confronted by some lunatic posting youtube spam links. It is because of your style of postings fewer and fewer people feel a need to come to this site. You drive people away from here……… now go out and thank yourself for doing that.
Imants….:))
one last time ( coz its getting annoying..)
im just a DJ…….
im just doing a job………
im not saying its right or wrong………
its just a job…..
do i always like it??
maybe not…..
who cares…….
but…….. its a job…… simply a job…….
i cant be a waiter, i cant be a teacher…….. i cant be a photojournalist……..
im just a DJ…..
there’s million of choices out there……. bars, clubs, stripclubs………..
just make your choice………..
again , dont kill the messenger……
times have changed……..
You are an Amazing photojournalist……. im just a homeless DJ……
in a place with no bouncers or security guards……
stop bullying….. stop taking advantage……..
enjoy….
plus……
your drinks are not just for free…..
but on me…..:)
what else u need?
u have never offered anything here and u still drink for free……….
isnt it a cool deal??????????
respect it bro…….:)
HUGE HUG………
( you started beef with the DJ…… now you are NOTICED…… SO , SMILE…………….
:)))))))))))..
ps: yes.. you are noticed…( maybe not for your work… but still, noticed… cant get any better that? right…..??????…relax… you are noticed…how much more attention u need?)
… sorry y’all… its 11:47.. 13 more minutes till the end of my late night show….
i will lwt u go with one last song……. the attention seekers consumed the last minutes of the show…… but hey….. whats new and who cares.:)))
so…….
last song for this hot summer night…..;-)
Panos-in-Powers.
Full of life. … and clicky things. Rock on …
Panos – can we hit a record 4000 comments?
Panos – you gonna do live Staples center tomorrow morning ?
i will Haik,…….. i will….
but the rookies need to be Kobe-ies…….. overnight……….
and whats worst?
they think its fair……
they think its thats easy……
so, i’ll shut up and let them take over…….
and soon they’ll find out how hard it is to fill Kobe’s shoes…………
laughing….
( either way, im going to sleep now… so they can go back to their “serious” photography talks about the difference between RAW & JPEG.)
bullshit..:))))
laughing……..
night night Haiko……. C U soonest……
over & out….
:)
roger, my raw-bro
WHAT NOT TO LOVE!!!
Come on BURNIANS LIFE is BEAUTIFUL !!!
We have only so little time on this Universe…please embrace.
Where is evryone ?
I MISS YOU ALL…come over…I am making Coffee…
Frappucino, ice latte, frappe, Greek or Turkish coffee, Armenian too
NZ one and Costa Rican…Brazilian of course !!!
Come on
coffee is on the house today :)))
Can you hold your cameras and smile …THANK YOU PHOTOBURNIANS!!!
P.S LIFE is short …please shoot and embrace …hmmm…Enjoy
BURNIANS,
I want to dedicate this MOON to all of you.
Soul searching …
WHAT DO YOU Thinking when you SHOOT ???
Marcin, all good points. I sure asking for the RAW was simply a formality to see that what was turned in was not anywhere near what was captured in the camera. I know I’ve written at length before about his manipulation, how it bothered me that he went so far. Just take a better shot. I can’t speak on whether or not he should have been disqualified.
But I think Tina Turner sang it best:
We don’t need over-manipulation.
We don’t need over-saturation.
All we want is life beyond,
Kodachrome.
On the pages of Burn, for the first time I came across the word “troll” (I didn’t know what it meant) and though I have experience of what SPAM is (who doesn’t), I didn’t know the origin of this word. So, today I decided to look deeper into these two words and my research took me to the pages of Wikipedia…for the benefit of those who, like me, want to know more about these words, here are the Wikipedia links…
Link to Troll (Internet)
and
Link to (Forum) SPAM
Now, spam.com suggests that the word SPAM might have originated from SPiced hAM! hmmmmm…!
Any ideas?
Hi ALL..
The Weegee transcription is done..can be found at http://ericamcdonaldphoto.com under scribbling in the dark..the man is a pleasure to listen to but a challenge to get right!
Cathy – I’ve done both translation work and transcription for documentary film, but thank god not court stuff!
ARMANDO…
i know i promised you a review of your work …and i am ready , but i do not remember where you wanted to see it…right here under “buzz” will work i think, but let me know for sure….
cheers, david
IMANTS….
your stats are a bit off…this site grows by approximately 25% per week…you are confusing readers with writers….however, your timing is perfect…your essay up next…get ready to write!!
actually, i will wait til this evening..just remembered you are probably twelve hours off my time…so, i will post when you are having your morning coffee, unless you tell me otherwise…i know you want to be pro-active with your essay…there will be no comment moderation as per your request….yeeeeeeeeeeha
cheers, david
DAH
Have you seen my email? Or did they get buried in the usual influx? No hurry, just checking.
I was just reading the piece on Bill Owens in the latest issue of “Color” magazine.
For those not familiar with Owens, his book “Suburbia” originally published in 1972 is and absolute classic must have. It has been re-printed and is again available.
It’s a very interesting article. While Bills stuff sometimes seems very tonque in cheek, it is very deliberate. He spent a year PLANNING to shoot Suburbia, and scripted it before he shot.
Here is a quote from the article.
“When I started shooting Suburbia, there were no shopping malls. suburbia was families in their backyard with the Weber barbeque. That was my world in the ’70s. The traditional family unit with a husband, wife and kids is now only,what, seven percent? Now we have shopping malls, costco and Best Buy. the center of the universe is Ikea and Wal-Mart. Those are our temples. I don’t see any photographs coming out of those places. Everyone is too interested in “art” photographs. They don’t see what the world is really about.”
Bill is right on. Where are the people with this kind of vision today?
Is it just me or are we not seeing anything terribly original these days? I seems we are missing the obvious.
GORDON..
i loved Suburbia when it came out and i love it now….but surely Martin Parr picked up where Bill left off in the satire department and Martin wants to do a Walmart esssay for Burn..so, we will see…my only questions to Bill Owens would be “why did you stop with Suburbia?”…also, i do think the world is about many many things and many many photographers are seeing it just fine….and, oh yes Bill, what is the world “really about”???
cheers, david
I think I’ve seen a different story on the same area as Lung Liu’s. It focused on people trying to eek out a living in an abandoned resort town. Anyone remember it? Does it sound familiar?
Gordon…..
as much as i love Surburia (especially the ‘final’ picture), the book, for sure, was a brilliant manifest of it’s time….but….when you write:
“Is it just me or are we not seeing anything terribly original these days? I seems we are missing the obvious.”,
it makes the hair on the back of my neck stand up….forgive me, but that is just silly….the world is filled with original, brilliant, changeling photography and photographers….
respectfully and with tenderness, i would said:
hunt down work, in exhibitions, books, websites….it is there…
that’s the kind of generalized old folk stuff that should never come from a photographer, yes? ;))
there is no excuse, now with the web, for other photographers not being aware of what’s being done….
all the best
bob
AHHHHH………..
After many many years of wanting, but never seeing Bruce Davidson’s Brooklyn Gang book, I bought / received it last week (terrific, sumptuous) and I just read the text now.
The gang was from the same neighborhood that I am doing my project in – and his piece was done exactly 50 years ago this summer.
Kind of an exhilarating thought. No pressure though, shit.
But why disqualification?
—————————
Marcin, even though the contest had “rules” (like any contest) against heavily altered shots, the disqualification helps making the whole debate public. Though people say “where’s the beef?”, the fact is, you reported it and burnians debated over it, like happened on many other sites. That is good.
For me, so far as I see such stuff lately, the heavily altered photography we see now is for the most part a returm to pictorialism, and therefore, can be sometimes talked (without having to absolutely finger-point this artist or that one), in terms of being reactionnary.
I’m looking at the STAPLES CENTER from my window…
3 helicopters circling…..
MICHAEL JACKSON’S dead body is honored … the funeral……..
gotta go… putting my CONVERSES ROUGES on and im going…
20.000 people inside mourning…..
thousands outside watching on big screens….
gotta go… historic day for LA……….
“Marcin, even though the contest had “rules” (like any contest) against heavily altered shots, the disqualification helps making the whole debate public. Though people say “where’s the beef?”, the fact is, you reported it and burnians debated over it, like happened on many other sites. That is good.”
Never thought of it that way. Interesting. Good point.
Hi David:
Sorry for the late reply but only now got home and saw your post… We are a few hours away anyway…
Right here under buzz seems just fine… Whenever you are ready, I am… Shot!
Many cheers,
Armando
Panos! Don’t forget your sequined glove!
And Panos… NEVER stop playing DJ in here. Sometimes I read/watch them all and sometimes I just skim them… but it wouldn’t be the same groovy joint here without your playlist/rants! Love ’em.
Herve, Brian
Yes this public debate is very good thing. But I am not sure it was intence of the jury.
But maybe I’m wrong.
For me it should be that way: If a picture is good even with some PS manipulation it is good, should be publish, should be awarded. Because even in PJ’s world there shouln’t be any manacle for creativity. The noor agency is very good example.
So everybody… Where is the line? The line between tastefully post-processed and disqualifying hyper-photomanipulation? Is it like pornography? Can’t really define it, but know it when you see it? Should it all be fair game?
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:swONMkD7XW4J:www.consumerwebwatch.org/pdfs/photos_policies.pdf+AP+rules+for+photo+manipulation&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=safari
Some good guidelines.
The day there is a line will be the day we may as well all stop.
what a ridiculous idea.
Interesting guidelines. But much of what they say is a “no-no” can be done in-camera and I’m sure they’d have no problem with it. Darkening the background is bad? Well what if I under expose and use a flash. Pretty much get what I want either way. Overly saturated? Working with an installed custom curve can give me seriously intense saturation and contrast and I’ve not used photoshop even once.
Again, where’s the line?
bobblack, sorry to raise your hackles. I didn’t think I was sounding old geezer like.
I was merely echoing the sentiment I have been expressing all along, that I long to see more people tackle the familiar, the ordinary, the personal, the intimate. Owens makes reference to the shift away from the nuclear family in the US, big box shopping etc. There are huge issues facing society and humanity at the moment, the economy, the enviroment, spiritual issues, cultural issues, political issues, so much so much, so many untold stories.
Instead, PJs feel the need to travel to exotic colourful locations, seek out the grotty and seedy, etc etc. I’ve ranted about all this before. I’m much more excited when someone shows me something close and familiar. Audreys stuff, Patricias amazing work, and much other work seen here on Burn.
I’m pretty aware of what is out there, and have been watching for a long time. And it’s not that I think all out there is crap, quite the opposite. In fact I believe we are entering a new photographic era. The internet, and digital imaging has democratized photography like never before. It’s and explosion of imagry and image makers. Burn is a part of that.
David, Martin Parr’s delightful work certainly does reonate with Owens in some respects, though is much more satiric. I don’t believe satire was Owens intent. I think he just had the rare ability to recognise the significance of the moment, and felt the need to document it in a very straightforward detailed way. What I love about his stuff is that there are no pretentions or attempt to make “art”. He is very present and at one with his subjects. It is about as honest a documentation as I’ve seen. I see no judgment or attempt to manipulate the viewer. It is what it is.
We could get bogged down in the minutia, but I think the overriding sentiment was the integrity of the image is paramount. Just because massive saturation can be done in the camera, doesn’t necessarily mean it should, at least not in a journalistic aspect. Just my take on the guidelines.
Brian, I hear what you’re saying. And I’m not trying to get bogged down. I was just trying to point out the difficulty (to say the least) of determining the “integrity of the image.” Taking that disqualified image as the example… they show the original RAW image and the final image. Now, where along the photoshop continuum would the judges have said, “Yeah, OK, that’s good enough… stop right there.”? They did not like that final image. But would they have liked it just backed off a bit? A lot?
I’m not advocating for one thing or another. It’s just that the middle ground between unaltered RAW, “pure” image and final image is vast and wide. Others have talked about switching between velvia and let’s say kodacolor back in the day. Using polarizers, split grads, warming filters, gels, dodge and burn… sooo much possibility for “manipulation” even then… accepted manipulation, too!
Ah well… fun stuff.
“I’m not advocating for one thing or another. It’s just that the middle ground between unaltered RAW, “pure” image and final image is vast and wide.” — Agreed
“But would they have liked it just backed off a bit? A lot?” — Who knows? Like so many things in this business, it all depends on who looks at the images. I think the judges looked at what was submitted, and felt that they fell outside their interpretation of what an honest representation meant.
Fun stuff indeed. Love a vigorous debate.
“I don’t believe satire was Owens intent.”
Hmmm, really? I find his work full of wonderful, and intentional, ironies that have, if anything, aged incredibly well. I love Ronald Reagan on the television. If Owens didn’t have Pete Seeger’s Little Boxes playing in his head I’d be surprised. He is after all a humorist at heart. The Showtime series Weeds is a modern take on the same satirical theme and its theme song for many seasons was …
Hi Tom
Satire:
“the use of irony, sarcasm, ridicule, or the like, in exposing, denouncing, or deriding vice, folly, etc.”
I don’t believe Owens was ridiculing his subjects. He clearly saw the humour present, as did his subjects. But humour is not ridicule. These people were just ordinary hard working middle class folks, his neighbors, he was one of them.
It seems as if all the students from Ohio University can photograph is rural poverty. There was Matt Eich and Carl Kiilsgaard, a finalist for the EPF, and now Maisie Crow who just won the Ian Parry Award: http://www.maisiecrow.com/index.html There must be more to photograph than this. It would be one thing if one, ok two student photographers were doing this, but three? What, does a whole class descend on these towns?!
I think rural poverty is just common and easy to find, and perhaps the people easy to exploit.
ALL….Michael….. im back……
i didnt forget about “the Glove”…..
i’ll post something soon… from downtown LA…
M.Jackson funeral……
i feel sad…. dehydrated……
i just “realized” that Michael really was the King of Pop…
People really, really loved him….
the helicopters still circling downtown LA…….
more later
http://mediadecoder.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/07/a-day-and-night-devoted-to-michael-jackson/
Just a quick enquiry… Has anyone here had much luck trying for commercial sponsors for projects? I’m about to try a different route and try for commercial sponsorship for my youth project with youth orientated companies. One problem I am coming up against is that most don’t want anything to do with alcohol related subjects, which in my case makes it a bit tricky! Also many won’t sponsor individuals.
Any feedback would be great. Cheers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=En-cHBv7UpA
…and Michael..:)))
no worries……. im not gonna let the “border patrol”..
to stop the DJ…:)
( ok, now off for a siesta… it was a sad, exhausting day after all… full of emotions…
plus nothing really happening here today…just to admit that i agree with Jim once again…)
ok…more music later……
late..:)
Right Jim. My issue here is that a lot of this work looks the same. There is a real ‘look’ to American style photojournalism. In part it is the recurring subject matter, but beyond this, somehow it all looks the same to me. Very newspaperish in the compistions. It’s what you see in PoYi. I see many more styles coming from the rest of the world. I mean these three from Ohio are taking photos in very similar styles. Where’s the American Jacob Aue Sobol or Olivia Arthur? I do have to say that Maisie went a good deal further than Kiilsgaard. She does have something quite unique going on with her shots of Autumn. All these young photojournalists these days are only shooting with seems to be a 5D and this also makes everything look the same. Film, medium format, panoramic cameras etc. need to still be utilized!
I don’t know who teaches at Ohio, but they need to get someone else in there along the lines of a Harvey. I have HAD it with American rural poverty! Go shoot something else please and win contests with that! There’s a whole wide world out there of rich culture.
@ Gordon … “I don’t believe Owens was ridiculing his subjects. He clearly saw the humour present, as did his subjects. But humour is not ridicule. These people were just ordinary hard working middle class folks, his neighbors, he was one of them.”
Gordon, nor do I think Owens was ridiculing, I never said nor implied that, but Owens was shining a light on the ironies of post-WWII suburbia with wry wit and humor. To me, he was questioning a societal condition without ridiculing the individuals. I do consider Parr’s work satirical but not (often) ridicule. Fine line. Please re-read your own definition … it uses the word “or,” not “and.”
Hmmm, as for poverty, if that is what is in your back yard, and your front yard, … well, you’re going to hate my future work then … but then, there are ways to portray “poverty” and then there are ways to portray LIFE of those who may be poor, in monetary respects, but perhaps not in all respects. I do see your point.
I find it interesting that students are attracted to the idea of a story that is visually loaded. I think this is why homelessness, rural poverty, drug abuse, etc…tend to be common subjects. Maybe it says more about where Ohio University and Western Kentucky University are located? I remember reading an interview with Thomas Roma, who teaches at Columbia University, who tells his students not to find the “other” out there but what the world is like that they live in.
http://www.columbia.edu/cu/museo/4/roma/index.html
“In fact, I actually give a list of things not to photograph because they’re traps and they’re just a waste of time: no mimes, no cats, no bicycle wheels in the sun casting a shadow, no fire hydrants with snow on top of them, no babies, no old people, don’t go to Chinatown and photograph fish or ducks hanging in the window. And I ask people to be sensitive to certain racial and ethnic things, to not photograph the Other. This is not a safari where you’re going around looking for the exotic. I find that it’s much richer to point the camera within the world you occupy.”
Granted he is talking about a Photo 1 class, but there are times when I think this could be applied to other classes. The reality is that journalism is always about the “other” while in the art photo discipline the “other” tends to be not discouraged, but more analyzed.
The curious mind will find the interesting stories to tell.
Tom … well said … and I’ll add, “write about what you know.”
hmm..need to take issue with Roma’s words, cause they’re not asking people to reach beyond their sense of self..this is what you get at the bottom of an email from me because I believe it and try to live it everyday as a person and as a photographer:
The real fraternity is fraternity by the fact that the other concerns me; inasmuch as he is stranger, he is my brother. -Levinas
“The photographer begins to feel big and bloated and so big he can’t walk through one of these doors because he gets a good byline; he gets notices all over the world and so forth; but they’re really – the important people are the people he photographs.”
Gordon Parks was a groundbreaking American photographer, musician, poet, novelist, journalist, activist and film director.
P.S Dear BODO ,my two euros
SPAM = Social Posting After Midnight :))))))))))))))))))))
BURNIANS ~~~~LOVE u 4ever
Bye Michael ~Love~
Erica I understand where you are coming from. To be honest, where I sit on this debate changes. I think it is important for photographers to reach beyond their comfort zone, whatever that is, but it depends on the photographer.
Tom – I’m not even suggesting that one needs to reach just beyond that (which we do, I think, in most cases, to that set of polaroids submitted by viewers to the NYT for example shows how complex work can be in one’s own comfort zone) Rather, that as people we would benefit from dropping the concept of division and difference. Yes, it’s exists, but so does oneness and common ground. I think the focus on how we are separate can be damaging to humanity..I have never met someone I couldn’t find some common ground with, even if we spoke different languages. We all are one, and that is real, though it is often forgotten or never realized. This idea that you should turn the camera on what you know, who you are is valid and work will be made powerful by this sense of reflection – some of the best work speaks loudly about the photographer – but the word coming down that there is you and then there is other and you can’t see yourself in the Other is frightening to me..
‘in most cases, to that set of’ should be ‘in most cases, though that set of’
Tom H
There surely is a fine line here between ridicule, which implies judgement, and satire, which may or may not.
I think we are both on the same page here.
emcd, I’m not sure if you are refering to this discussion when you speak of seeing ourselves in others.
Erica, approach is everything, yes? :)) If you approach the Other as Other, then you are better off not approaching the Other at all. I’m not trying to be flip, it’s just a natural tendency. Perhaps Roma was making this suggestion to early students to avoid the trap all of us fall into one time or an Other. Sorry, did it again. Seriously, I think your approach is certainly the best one, and it shows in your work. At the same time, I think with most people the reality is that there are divisions that cannot be bridged without a lot of time and effort, and most are either unwilling or unable to make the commitment to cross this bridge so, for them, it is best not to “go on safari” to bag game. Good discussion.
Erica
Let me echo Tom. Your work reflects your sentiments. I love what you do.
I believe that much of our serious and sincere photographic efforts when exploring others lives is about searching for our common humanity.
It’s just that there are real traps in turning to the “other”, especially I think for the young. Best try to know one’s self first.
OK.. y’all…:)
MICHAEL JACKSON’s funeral shut down downtown LA
and filled some pockets with cash…
few snapshots in a slideshow, click below…..
http://picasaweb.google.com/innerspacecowpanos/TIF03?authkey=Gv1sRgCKOexdqJ152a9AE#slideshow/5355930986622972162
Thanks Panos. It’s all just too weird for words.
Gordon… yes,
it was a weird day, anger, sadness… empty conversations..
idols, pain…
i got confused myself… couple hours later “studying” that crowd…
i didnt know what or how to feel… respect mixed with disrespect…
i had to go back home and sleep it of… couple hours later and
that “weirdness” still all over my head…..
no words to describe the “energy” today……
but i promise u one thing… i didnt “buy” anything…at the “temple”…
everything felt so “plastic”…
even the emotions or the “grief”……
weird..
:(
…and Michael..:)..
yes i found the “holy Grail”…
the “holy Glove” i meant….
lots of those.. everywhere…
oh well…
all that.
Missed ya down there Panos… ’twas strange.
Alex was mildly upset that the buses weren’t running through the area. A 20-year-old hot tar roofer and student, he was on his way to work, went to catch the bus at Olympic and Figueroa. Right across the street from the Staples Center. No bus. So he decided to empty his belongings on the street, disrobe and samsh his guitar to let the cops know how dissatisfied he was with his gov’t.
City of L.A paid 4 mil for this event, over 10 for the Lakers parade, amidst a budget crisis that is seeing teachers laid off and K-12 classes in jeopardy. Par for the course in L.A. I guess. Know they set up a website so that people can donate money to offset the cost of the memorial. Hmmmm. Last I heard the Lakers and MJ were all millionaires.
Anyway…. Alex venting — http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3513/3699443235_20f0ef6729_o.jpg
cool shot Jared……
yes…….. only in LA…..
Lakers, plastic and one dollar hot dogs……
in the meantime the unemployment rates………..
4 million bucks for security but u cant catch a bus…..
f**k LA……:(
I just picked up on the Ohio U/rural poverty comments… I spent a year and a half at OU and although I didn’t work on a story on local poverty while I was there I know others (before Eich and Maisie that did) —Kiilsgaard btw is a student at Kentucky. Its no great surprise to me, as one would always expect to see stories on poverty, drug addiction, homelessness (as Tom L said) from students as they are aspiring to take on hard issues. They want to prove themselves with hard topics that appear to be successful within this industry.
As for the current situation with us seeing similar works coming from OU and Kentucky, I think it may just be timing… From personal experience at OU I know that many stories are done over and over. This is a school in a tiny town in a rural area so stuff is always going to be repeated. Many before have done stories on local poverty as it is an issue in the area. However, When Matt Eich came along he raised the bar and nd gained a lot of attention as his work was great! I cant speak for Kiilsgaard as to weather he had seen Eich’s work before he started his own similar project, but quite rightly it also gained attention as it was also very worthy.
I guess my point is that this type of story has been shot year after year at OU and WKU. It just so happened that two… now three I guess (I hadn’t heard of Maisie before this discussion) produced work of the caliber that was noticed outside of the universities.
DAH
Did you see my email or did it get buried in the usual onslaught?
Panos! Brilliant stuff there. And yes… there it is… the Glove! Or a glove…. one of millions? Sure.
Loved “The Romans guarding the Temple.” Sharp.
Peace.
brother P(anos) :))
u got that right…they mourn the celebrity and fill their coffers with more, but most cant see the time of day to help out the neighbor who is struggling to pay the bills, let alone catch a bus….all that $$ spent, could have fed & sheltered a fair slice of all those kids i knew still leaving on the streets of w.hollywood along LaBrea and east….we’re a silly lot…
and by the way, i loved the Punk Vid…u r still the same, only your curls replaced by a bandanna ;))…
running
hugs
b
I received an e-mail from another Ohio student who provided a more nuanced view for me of the program. Rural poverty of course is omnipresent there and logically many students are drawn to the issue. I was starting to feel though as if there was a whole school associated with the issue when I saw so many students photographing it. Maisie Crow seems to be doing something quite interesting though as her pictures of Autumn reminded me almost of the work of Jessica Dimmock’s 9th Floor and Lise Sarfati’s recent work with American teenagers in the way that Maisie is uniquely capturing certain facial expressions in her portraits of Autumn.
DAVIN…
you are so right…there is a “look” to American photojournalism and it ties into to Mizzou, Ohio, W.Kentucky , many newspapers, Natgeo, and the whole POY and NPPA way of looking at the world…i missed Arles this year (on now), but that is the place to go to see photography out on the edge…
the last time i did lecture to an audience at Ohio (and the faculty there are friends of mine) , none of the faculty or the students were even really aware of the Euro schools and approach to photography, much less the Asian influences…it is not that they have walls or are close minded…they were curious when i described it, but it is just not part of their curriculum or interest…and from a practical standpoint, it is just a long long and expensive trip for them to get to Arles or Paris Photo or Photo Espana…
now in theory, i am a part of above “school”…but, i was so lucky in that my earliest influences in photography were the Europeans…by the time i got to Mizzou, NPPA, NG etc , i already had locked down tight my own ideas and philosophy well in place from childhood and this was based on the French Impressionists, Goya, Caravaggio, HCB, Frank , etc…
i could indeed see that i was most likely going to put food on the table for my family working as part of the above “system”…but i knew that if i could somehow get into the more international league of Magnum, that i would get back to my “real roots”…i was not faking the involvement with the U.S.”club”, and i put a lot of value on the integrity of U.S. journalism, but my sensibilities would have been limited had i stayed bound by this world…
i would imagine that both Mizzou and Ohio are in a panic about what to tell their students…they are going to have to totally re-work their curriculum i think…THE PATH from Mizzou/Ohio to small newspaper, to bigger newspaper, to Natgeo is clearly over or about to be over…however, i do think it is possible that some amazing new photographers are going to come out of the U.S…..but, they really really should look abroad for their reference points…
cheers, david
Tom ..it is best not to “go on safari” to bag game. well,, yeah :) if that’s what the little buggers were going to do, Roma was right to stop them. The problem doesn’t start at photo 101..by age 6 most kids have forgotten their true nature because the world around them doesn’t echo it. “there are divisions that cannot be bridged without a lot of time and effort” or by love and oneness, eh? I really think a lot of the permissions I get (esp. now when I’m street shooting everyday) come from that same place as does Capa’s “Like people and let them know it.” but with a difference – you don’t really have to like everyone in a come sit down at my table this Thursday kind of way..there is a deeper way of connecting even with those who may grate a bit, it’s fundamental, a right and at the essence of humanity, and it is the same with animals, the creatures are as much a part of us as we are them..fear is the divider..
Gordon..thank you…I wasn’t following the other discussion – “Best try to know one’s self first.” yes, and no, I think..we learn, remember our true self in many ways..we all make mistakes.
On a practical level, there is a thorn in my side right now – someone not wanting me to shoot on the streets in his neighborhood..it’s going to have to come down to connection and love. I went by his place last night just to smile and look him in the eye and not run..bit by bit..
PANOS and JARED,
thanks for the inside !!!
Part of the history…Love,love,love:)
IMANTS,
where is my boy, Mike???
mute no more :)))!!!
EmergingMindCharismaticDevil your writing is lovely
KATIE if u don’t show up, I will BURN my Civilian polaroid…
BURNIANS, coffee is on the house…LOVEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
a bit more..
I was talking with the lovely and amazing Paul Fusco at LOOK3, and he kept emphasizing using how you FEEL about something in your work..it got me to thinking..feelings are complex..i’m not just a do gooder in photography, wanting everything to be used for social reform or such..I don’t respect the actions of everyone I photograph, and in honesty the relationship originates often because I want something..a photograph, a way to express myself, understanding, etc. and the work can be about me as much or more than it is about them..translated into feeling and not concept or action photography becomes complicated, and i am working on understanding all this and being truthful with my motives and being at peace with them, because what we think and feel about something doesn’t have to be rosy to still be coming from the place of a desire for oneness..
Hey David hope you saw my reply yesterday…
Ready when you are…
Cheers,
Armando
erica
“the work can be about me as much or more than it is about them..translated into feeling and not concept or action photography becomes complicated, and i am working on understanding all this and being truthful with my motives and being at peace with them, because what we think and feel about something doesn’t have to be rosy to still be coming from the place of a desire for oneness..”
wonderfully stated, and true no matter what kind of photography we undertake.
I’d have loved to hear Fusco, his beautiful photographs of his children, originally published in LOOK magazine to illustrate “a re-awakening of hope” are some of the most moving I’ve ever seen.
Come to think of it, maybe it’s time again for some “re-awakening of hope” photography.
Davin. Yeah totally! I should have gone further to provide a bigger picture on OU myself (it was late in the eve). I’m glad somebody else did.
A whole variety of subject matter is produced by the students (under-grad and grad) every day, week, month… Generally the work is more “straight” photojournalism but there are often more conceptual projects produced as students experiment with their style.
David interesting points. I haven’t spoken to the faculty at OU in a long time. I am also interested to see how things will change there with the current situation in the industry. I think it may be fair to say though that things may also happen organically. If feel that when I was there in ’03-’05 the focus was already starting to shift away from nurturing photogs to work at newspapers. I for one, and I know many others during my time there, had no real interest in working for newspapers and this in my opinion will only increase. I think the students themselves will force a shift whether instigated by the faculty or not.
And yes, having experience of both the European system/style of education and the US, there is a world of difference!
DAH: Exactly, well said. I mean these Ohio, W. Kentucky 20 somethings are obviously very talented and able to put use light and put a composition together, but it’s highly competent newspaper photography, light years in my opinion from, say, Bendiksen’s Satellites work which is bound by a whole concept or Delahaye’s Winterreise or Sobol’s Sabine. Somehow these photojournalism schools seem to have mirrored America’s own isolationism in their style of photography. I mean the level of Koudelka’s work with its surreality an utter starkness and rigid form and atmosphere seems completely outside the photographic language on any level of the American style of photojournalism. Very interesting to hear your take and how you managed to mingle in both worlds. I am here in Bucharest, Romania because I felt that if I stayed in the US I would wilt inspiration wise. I also realized that if I didn’t move here, I’d never get out of Brooklyn. The costs of living in the US and the airfare and lack of assignments these days would have made it prohibitive. Instead, I pay 300 Euros a month, live as cheaply as can be and move with stealth and all that I want to photograph is either outside my door or only a train ride away!
REVIEW FOR: ARMANDO RIBEIRO…
Armando, so sorry to be late in getting back to you for your review…
ok, here it is straight up:
right off the top, i would change the nature of your website if i were you…you had i think 8 essays, all 3-6 minutes long…no editor or purveyor of your work is going to spend the solid half hour it takes to figure out who Armando Ribeiro really is….the essays are just too too long for website viewing i think…perhaps you could just edit out the very best of the best and have perhaps one or two slide show essays instead of eight…in other words, there is no quick way to see your vision, your style and i think you could do that without sacrificing any depth ..but, it is DEPTH that you most need…
bottom line: your pictures are good, but not special….you have captured the events, but you have not set yourself outside of the crowd of so so many photographers out there shooting…you need to rise above….you may or may not ever be able to do this…BUT, you will never know if you do not try…you will be frustrated your whole life if you do not push push for excellence right now…i do not know your age, but i know your background, education and leanings towards a more classic photojournalism..that is fine, but the very best photojournalists put an “edge” to their work….you MUST be able to see this difference…IF you can see it, you can do it….
first, you certainly have a zest for life and put yourself into interesting situations…youth fest, fashion, polo, beach life etc…the Buddha piece, Borrowed Home and Urbanalities were different in mood, but nonetheless show the wide variety of circumstances where you find yourself..
this is both good and bad…
good, because curiosity is where photography certainly begins…bad, because you are not sticking with any one subject long enough to really live it, be it…you seem to be jumping from one subject to another with only minimal “care”..i end up not knowing how you actually feel about any of these subjects…you were there but not THERE…..
one way or another you must show us your personality through your work….yes, you are photographing others and you are not doing self portraiture (except in Urbanalities which was the best of all), but there must always we a way to show us that you are seeing these subjects in a way that is special or different or styled in way to make us see that Armando has a real vision…
now, this is not to say that you do not have some fine photographs in all of this …you do…but, it takes me forever to find them amidst all the ones that simply do not work out so well….again, editing is everyone’s problem and you are no exception…
now, Urbanalities seemed a bit more YOU..your sense of humor and subtleties were felt strongest in this essay…some very nice pictures in this set..take out the ones that are not so strong, and you would be fine…also since this was in b&w , the weaknesses you have with color were obviously absent..yes, color is your weakness for sure…you just need to get control with your color….color is hard…color is a pain…color will break down even the best seeing if you just do not get a hold of it….your choices of lighting and light just do not work in most cases…it is if you just decided to shoot color , but forgot to think in color…
i would need to be with you on skype to really help you with this, but you do need help….this poor use of color combined with just not taking the next step , leave these stories flat..even the party story where the light was actually working for you, there is not one strong picture in the bunch…almost strong..almost there…almost a moment ..almost a feeling, but alas just not quite….
it seems you STOP SHORT…it looks like you find something interesting, take a picture, and then move on…you need to STAY STAY STAY on it on it on it..do not stop…be relentless in getting into the mood and block out everything else in your life and focus…in the zone for at least a minute at a time….i do not mean WORK…i mean RELAX..but, relax with focus…
this is the single hardest thing for almost all photographers i mentor to get a hold of…the toughest single concept for not only you , but for most….it looks like you are shooting and walking , shooting and walking etc etc etc…sit down , do not move..let the mood and the scene wash over you….then move…in that whole party scene you should have been in about 3 places, not 15….assume the picture is coming to you…do not keep searching…looking for pictures is futile…yes, looking for pictures is futile….you will never “find them”…….FEELING pictures, really being there is where you need to be for your next step….
do yourself a big favor…fall in love…fall in love with a subject you really care about…not just something that you think will make cool pictures that an editor might like…if you love something deeply or care about something deeply , it will show in the work…then , as in any love pursuit, give it everything you have…sweat, bleed, go the extra mile and doing all of this in the most peaceful relaxed manner for 16 hours per day…frantic does not work….work does not work….going with the flow works….this is the SECRET!! just try it…please let me know how it works for you…..
i hope you take this review in good spirit…you are certainly a gentleman and a good sport for having a critique online……having said all of this, you are not really so far away from changing your whole perspective….my only goal here is to help you, not offend you….i know English is not your first language , so i hope this makes sense to you …if not, i will repeat in a way that will be helpful to you….just ask if something is not clear please….
cheers, david
Tom, No mimes?
DAH – Lots of good info in that review. Lots of good info that many photographers, including me could use. Very cool. Thanks to you and Armando for doing that in the open.
DAH
I think I keep getting buried. Did you see my email from last week asking for an in-depth explanation of “newspaper mode?”
No hurry, just want to make sure you saw it.
Thanks!
DAH, are you offering reviews online like this to everyone?!
Davin Ellicson
David,
also Armando, Brian…
The critique you just posted above…THAT is the photography book that needs to be published.
That is the advice photographers need to hear. Pre or post emerging…makes no difference. It’s inspirational.
David are you keeping track of the advice you are giving in your critiques? I hope so. Put it all together and it would be an instant classic and a best seller (as far as photography books go.) I’m not kidding.
Anyone know of a book that says the things David is saying in his critiques? I’d like to see it.
Very very insightful review. I just went back and looked at Armando’s site again after reading it and I think what DAH said makes a lot of sense. Excellent advice for everyone. It would be interesting to see more of these online. Maybe in their own section?
ARMANDO: I do agree with DAH that the slideshows are a bit long. I thought the the time spent on each image was too long. 8-10 seconds can be an eternity. Ideally, I would kill the music and let the viewer control the slideshow. This can be done in soundslides pro.
If you insist on the music and having control of the pace of the show, I would keep the images to about 5 seconds. Remember, they always have access to the pause button if they want to linger on an image.
Just my 2 cents.
This is what I would call MASTER REVIEW !!!
P.S Now, English is my third language and I am dyslexic …but the review above is clear like
a teardrop …go figure
THANK YOU MR. DAVID ALAN HARVEY
good job BURNIANS…stay tuned
Classic advice:
“this is the single hardest thing for almost all photographers i mentor to get a hold of…the toughest single concept for not only you , but for most….it looks like you are shooting and walking , shooting and walking etc etc etc…sit down , do not move..let the mood and the scene wash over you….then move…in that whole party scene you should have been in about 3 places, not 15….assume the picture is coming to you…do not keep searching…looking for pictures is futile…yes, looking for pictures is futile….you will never “find them”…….FEELING pictures, really being there is where you need to be for your next step….
do yourself a big favor…fall in love…fall in love with a subject you really care about…not just something that you think will make cool pictures that an editor might like…if you love something deeply or care about something deeply , it will show in the work…then , as in any love pursuit, give it everything you have…sweat, bleed, go the extra mile and doing all of this in the most peaceful relaxed manner for 16 hours per day…frantic does not work….work does not work….going with the flow works….this is the SECRET!! just try it…please let me know how it works for you…..”
Armando: Yes, I always here that editors really dislike sound when viewing images. But, maybe you are not angling for the editorial world. The editing needs to be taught with nothing weak. And why the slideshow? Viewers usually like to be able to click forward and backward easily to see images again if they want to.
hear, sorry
Oh, I just saw the arrow buttons, never mind.
Davin, just out of curiosity, I’m putting together a slideshow with audio from an interview with the subject. Is that not cool?
David, thanks to you and Armando for bringing this critique online. There are jewels in there for ALL of us. I will read and reread and reread it again and again. THANK YOU!
My news is cool. Carl Bower, whom I met in C’ville, was here for the last two days asking me questions about my life story, my disability, my self portrait project and my feelings about photography. I answered each question in depth and digitally recorded the entire thing, questions & answers. I now have 5 hours and 45 minutes of digital files that I am sending for transcription to the former secretary of a friend in California. I will then work with that material and edit it down to, hopefully, no more than three pages of text for my book, Falling Into Place.
Gene Richards had urged me to make my text as personal and intimate as the photos and I think this “conversation” approach will do that. It will be a time-consuming and money-intensive project, but worth it. Hell, I spent a year making the photos so I can certainly devote a matter of months to the text. It deserves as much.
But can you believe that a professional photog like Carl Bower, who only knew me through seeing the book and hearing me speak to Gene’s class, came up with the idea and actually flew here from Washington, DC for two days and one night just to interview me in service of the text? He is THAT committed to this project.
My god, that is unbelievable. Just like having DAH go four hours out of his way to drive to Detroit a year ago to help me with my first edit is still unbelievable. This project is so much bigger than me. I feel very much like a simple conduit. I just hope I can give it everything it needs to show and say what needs to be seen and heard out in the world.
Patricia
P.S. I asked Carl to submit his essay to Burn. He has an incredible body of work.
“I feel very much like a simple conduit. I just hope I can give it everything it needs to show and say what needs to be seen and heard out in the world.”
God, if I write like THAT I’m in big trouble!!! Talk about abstruse…
P
Brian, it’s cool..the point is that on your site there should be an obvious way to at least see a tightly edited strong portfolio and perhaps and essay or two that can be clicked through quickly. Editors don’t want to feel they are being held captive to understand you..
Brian: I know you are kidding! Of course one can do anything one wants. I was just reminded of a post on a Photo Editor where a number of top editors of magazines chimed regarding sound that’s all. The main thing is what DAH said: you need to make a website quickly viewable so viewers have an idea of your work. Sound can be good, but some people find it distracting. Of course for a multimedia piece you do use sound. But I would think oyou would also want to have sets of images without sound as well on a website.
Brian, it’s cool..the point is that on your site there should be an obvious way to at least see a tightly edited strong portfolio and perhaps and essay or two that can be clicked through quickly. Editors don’t want to feel they are being held captive to understand you..but a multimedia piece is good too..just shouldn’t be the only option
David:
Many thanks for this review.
All in all I think you just put down in written what I sensed, when a month ago I was putting together my website and felt that I really need to get to work… This is more then a wake up call! Thanks!
A few years ago I have done a workshop with you in Lisbon (lisbonlight organized by Pauliana, do you recall that one?) it took me a few time to come to terms with the work that I did during that week long window of time… but know I feel, as you said, I need to fall in love for an issue/theme the way I have done during that week and the same way I did when shooting Urbanalities… and stick to it…
For the last few month I have been researching and falling in love for a little town in the top north of Canada called Yellowknife… now during the winter months the temperatures in that corner of the earth go down to -30/-40 C and a road, that last only 3 months, is built over a series of lakes… All of this to feed the Diamond mines on the top of the Northwest Territories… the people, the great wide space and the fact that during the last winters the temperatures have been raising considerably… Do you think there is a story worth to be told and fall in love for?! Hope so! As i’m about to apply for funding to try and make it for next winter…
Anyway it would be great to discuss this a bit further with you… do you think we could skype one of this days?
I just would like to thank you once more for taking the time for looking and reviewing my work.
Many cheers,
Armando
Somehow Harvey reminds me of Clapton: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRBJDJklBZ0&feature=related
Watch the solo at: 3:00 if nothing else!
DAH
Your mailbox is full…. email got bounced back….
here is my reply:
As unbelievable as this is going to sound…. I don’t even know what Skype is….
don’t you have free long distance on your iPhone? I also checked and we can call each other without using any minutes.
Let me know….
Armando. Thats one hell of a review you just got yourself there. above all else you can feel that david cares. Thats priceless.
Being able to see. such an innocent looking sentence and yet it is the key to everything.
Once you can see you are blessed and cursed at the same time, because you will clearly see what is not more often than what is. Thats hard time. the bar goes up and must stay up. in fact we must always be trying to notch it up another inch. And when it does its hard time again cos a whole bunch of earlier stuff has to take a jump.
I hope you get to fall in love with your canadian town.
John
Bob:)
thanks for watching the greek punk version of the “15 minutes of Shame”…
also
yes.. the MJ funeral is hard to forget..
Armando,
thanks for letting David review you so publicly, it has been usefull to everyone.
David AH,
thanks for posting such an insight into your feelings and views on working practice.
I have spent years doing stuff for travel brochures producing good work fit for purpose, but at the end of the trips have often felt cheated/disappointed, the resulting pictures have been good representations/documents but have felt soulless. I basically was working to what I thought the client wanted, I achieved this, clients are happy. Often I come back from a trip with a whole stack of pics that are technically good but I find it hard to look at them because I have been working so hard on what the client wanted (it is their dollar after all) that I have neglected my own view. Because of this I almost gave up photography due to the perpetual disappointment. This was not why I entered into photography.
I was just beginning to refind my own voice,my own view, when I can across Burn. Burn has been a great support with this and reviews like the one above leave me itching to get out there, get snapping with determination and clarity of vision. There are so many stories to tell.
It feels like rehab.
As Andrew Sullivan Said “I am a reformed newspaper photographer……..A major turning point in my career came after attending David Alan Harvey’s loft workshop in 2007. His advice? Quit the newspaper. I’ve been freelance for over a year and see many opportunities for the future.”
All I can say to others on this list is reread that review again and again, it is full of wisdom.
Patricia,
great news for you, really exciting stuff, go with it enjoy the ride.
best
Ian
ARMANDO…
i am really laughing….i did not realize you were THAT Armando from Lisbon…of course i remember you..who could forget you?? however, when i did the review i had no clue you were the Armando from Pauliana’s class…funny…
have you seen Pauliana’s baby?? do you know there is a picture of Pauliana in “Divided Soul” shot in the main plaza there in Lisbon??….i think i made this at about the time we met or maybe the year before…..Pauliana is just one spectacular woman in every way….please give her my warmest regards ..i have lost touch since she had her baby….
Yellowknife…..hmmmmm, yes Yellowknife….i spent a couple of weeks there once when i was doing a story on the Inuit….how in the world did you end up in Yellowknife?? i did not fall in love with Yellowknife mostly because it was about 30 degrees below zero and dark for 19 hours of the day when i was there…i recall the alcohol consumption was way way above the international average too….however, very interesting picture possibilities…if you can get “inside” the culture and make this your home for awhile, then i think you could do a great essay….certainly Yellowknife is about as far away culturally from Lisbon as you can get….go for it….and let me see what you do please…
nice to reconnect with you Armando….nice surprise!!!
cheers, david
IAN AITKEN…
i am so pleased you feel as you do…your sentiments make all of this worthwhile….thank you..wishing we meet on my next visit to London…however, i must make some money first…the exchange rate is a killer for those of us with dollars….
cheers, david
ERICA…
many many thanks for all of your transcribing…so so educational for all of us….it will not go to waste…Joe is in the process of making sure that comments here will not get buried…he is carefully archiving so much of the material here…despite some of the wrangling that has taken place on Road Trips and here on Burn, there have also been some brilliant comments…the best will be destined for a book as i am sure you can imagine…i cannot do anything without a book in mind as you well know…Burn online will someday be Burn the book…keep those cards and letters coming….again, thank you
cheers, david
David:
… and we did see each other in London a couple of weeks ago, but you clearly didn’t recognize me then… lol
I have been living here in London since 2005, but keep in touch with some of the crew down in Portugal… I remember that shot it was made the year before we did the workshop, as you were launching the book over that week… And then we hooked up again during that year crazy Perpignan…
Only know Paulianas baby girl from pictures though… I have one of my own that is almost three…
The Yellowknife thing comes from a visit to Canada a couple of years ago… but I was there in the summer… so I really want to feel it during the winter months… will keep you posted.
Right! back to work know.
See you around.
Take care.
Armando
Just a suggestion about the look/access to essays and single pics.
Would it be possible to have a thumbnail/gallery of all the burn essays and single images, so you could browse them visually rather than just by text in the righthand column.
cheers
ian
DAH
you are welcome..I feel the same, the transcribing is important, whether from your loft talks or from HCB in 1958..this is history. Regarding the Weegee / HCB, I did what I think was a fairly intensive search to see if this was already transcribed in parts or whole, and except for a couple of quotes that HB has said again in slightly different ways at a later date, it wasn’t. It seems very important to keep the words alive and accessible.
Which brings me to a thought – if you (plural) know of an important artist talk I should attend in NYC, or of older materials that are recorded but not written, please let me know…
Also, speaking of books..
As many of you know I have been working on a piece that was originally inspired by David’s challenge to see what could be produced in a period of time, something he could point to when showing editors what burn was about as well as a way to motivate the photographers here. For me this push turned into a book project about a neighborhood in Brooklyn, its remaining diversity and working class amidst a rapidly changing demographic.
The black and white piece has two components – medium and large format ‘street studio’ portraits shot over 2 months on one street corner against a white backdrop (whose making as assisted by several of the photographers here) and 35mm documentary style street shots. My goal is to have a full year of the 35mm images in the book, which would mean I am to shoot into October.
The whole project is shot on film and to date has been self financed, and it seems that in order for me to keep shooting at the rate / amount that I’d like to, some sponsorship is needed. I know we have many silent readers here, many of you editors and people working in the industry in a myriad of ways, so I am writing here to put out the word that I am looking for sponsorship / film / funding in creative ways for the piece..for thanks and credit in the book, or possibly for use of select images for your publication, or??
I am filled with gratitude for David for helping to initiate this piece, but now I need a little help to complete the shooting phase. If this is of interest to you, please email me at erica(at)ericamcdonaldphoto.com.
Thanks DAH for the space to write this..and for everything.
David, I just submitted my body essay! Looking forward to seeing it published, juhuu!!! Also sent you an email.
Cheers, Andrea
David,
Since you cannot do anything without a book in mind, I hope you saw my earlier comment that you MUST do a book (in addition to the burn book) on advice for photographers. Along the lines of your critique to Armando as well as the advice you have previously given to me and many others.
You must trust me, this type of book is highly sought after and will be a best-seller in the world of photography. I’ve seen other recently published books such as Within the Frame written by relatively unknown photographer David Duchemin do incredibly well. Please read this review and hopefully you will see what I’m talking about.
http://photofocus.com/2009/05/31/photo-book-review-within-the-frame/
Here it is on Amazon.
http://www.amazon.com/Within-Frame-Journey-Photographic-Vision/dp/0321605020
DAH,
(forgive me everyone for this gratuitous post!) ;^}
David, if you are still around… Having read and now re-read your critique of Armando’s work I was reminded of the critique I received back at ‘Road Trips’ of my France photos. I just came from a major search and was actually able to find it! What a treasure. Very helpful! Anyway, here’s the last line from your commments…
“please take this as constructive critique Michael…and , you certainly moved FORWARD from the work i had seen of yours before…so, it is all “good news”, but i would just like to push you up another notch..”
Don’t know what ever got in my way after that (life, I guess!), because thinking now I knew I wanted to throw mself at your mercy and let you push me up another notch! Now, there’s no doubt you are pretty much perpetually in the weeds with helping others, but here I am regardless of that fact asking if you can somehow fit me in.
Call or email if you find a moment… or just drop a note here… love to be able to work something out.
Many thanks,
-M
David,
Just made another comment urging you to do an “advice” book. It’s “awaiting moderation” so in the meantime let me post a few lines from a book review..about a book written by an unknown photographer, it’s selling VERY well. Don’t you think there will be a huge audience for your book? I absolutely do. You must trust me on this!!!
“Taking an image that speaks to people, perhaps even rises to the level of art, is much harder. You have to add a secret ingredient, vision, to get that kind of image.
There are tons of books that talk about technique, like exposure, composition, post processing and so forth. As far as I know there are only a handful of good books that tell about how to get the secret ingredient. This book is one of them.”
I think one of the great qualities that David has, is that one-on-one feeling he gives us, which would be lost in a “how to” book.
Plus, any book that does not go further and cover the paramount equations of how to best communicate one’s work in the 21st century with the internet, multi-media techniques, changing profession, and etc… sticking only to “how to shoot” would be incomplete. I am not sure David knows himself how it is all shaping up, since it’s happening right now.
I think if some of us can make the difficult step from dedicated to relentless, we will understand what David wants us is to be physically involved with/in/about our photography (shooting).
That is the difference between dedicated and relentless: physical involvement.
Correct me, David, but If it had to be summedup in a short sentence, I think that’s what you are ultimately telling Armando/us.
And that is tougher than we think…. or can read too! ;-)
The basic idea I think, what Harvey is saying, is that your camera must be your mistress. You make good photographs by making love to the scene you are photographing.
?!?!?
What does my mistress do when I make love to the scene, Davin? :-)))
As an aside, I have been going down memory lane watching MJ videos on youtube for the past 2 weeks and now I am also digging up vintage Madonna! She was so raw in the 80s and that voice:
Well, you are making love to the scene through your camera, your mistress.
If we are playing the game of -what did DAH say-, in essence I think he is suggesting we can use the state known as mindfulness to “rise above” aka to be enlightened as photographers.
Mindful awareness is “self-directed and emphasizes that each moment we intentionally choose where we focus our attention.” It can be described as a four-fold path in which we can “be present, pay attention to what has heart or meaning, tell the truth without blame or judgement and be open to outcome.”
In this state, we work without working, see with our inner eye and speak with heart, and are “in the zone.”
yes, mindfulness, being in the zone, the pressing of the shutter being an orgasmic experience, all of this.
DAH thanks for that amazing critique.
Armando, thanks for allowing the rest of us to benefit.
Just finishing up a project, and I have a beta v1.0 of an audio slideshow that was finished about 12:30 this morning. This is the first time I’ve done an intensive submersion into a subject like this. Seeing it start to come together, and seeing the beginnings of a completed project is just making me beam today. Perhaps Burn-worthy?
Not really adding to the conversation here, just needed to share.
Going back to the rural poverty discussion, Carl Kiilsgaard’s “The White Family” here on Burn, and the references to the students at Ohio University (Maisie Crow’s website was posted) –-
There was a sense in the discussion that the subject of rural poverty was exhausted in photojournalism and that young photographers should be encouraged to explore other themes. Yes, we all want to be Walker Evans and believe that our work will “make a difference,” but I think the interest in poverty as a subject among photographers stems from the fact that there is SO LITTLE coverage of it in the American media. Yes, contest winners invariably shoot poor people, but it’s pretty hard to find regular, engaged treatments of poverty in mainstream media outlets.
When they do appear, they are usually down-on-their-luck stories –- people who have fallen hard -– or up-by-their-boostraps stories about people nobly making the best of a bad situation, making sacrifices, soldiering on.
These are all clichés, and anyone who has spent ten minutes among the poor will see right through them. But they make readers happy, give them hope, and don’t annoy advertisers.
What makes Carl’s work interesting is the fact that, despite his obvious affection for his subjects, the Whites are unsympathetic figures. Carl depicts their drug use, parents seemingly endangering their children, everyone living in squalor. Witness the backlash from the local Kentucky discussion board that sent all the inflammatory comments to Burn and that caused Carl to take down the piece. Those folks did not want to be represented by Carl’s depiction of the White family. Indeed, the Whites were vilified and criminalized -– which is the standard response to the poor in America. Even the reaction among sophisticated Burn posters was mixed –- there was plenty of scorn for the Whites (and for Carl).
Poverty is ugly. Poor people do unsavory things like abuse drugs and neglect their children (rich people do these things, too, but they are immediately forgiven in the media). How, then, does one cover poverty as a photographer?
The easy way is to depict the nobility of suffering, the sacrifice, the ways in which people are slowly improving their lot.
The hard way is what Carl did -– show that poverty is really brutal. You can be a sympathetic observer and still depict ugliness. That’s usually called honesty, a trait we all claim to admire. It’s extremely hard to work counter to standard media narratives since embracing them is usually the key to success (awards, grants, assignments). But what’s the point of shooting the same images in the same manner for readers who have already seen them?
Photographing poverty may indeed be a cliché. But Karl’s work explodes that cliché –- and it angered a lot of people, including many of us here in Burn.
Preston, I simply cannot count the ways I think you are spot on, but the sentence, “The hard way is what Carl did -– show that poverty is really brutal. You can be a sympathetic observer and still depict ugliness. That’s usually called honesty, a trait we all claim to admire.” is about as good as it gets. Well thought-out. Well said.
Preston;
I do agree, but also think that to show that despite poverty a person/family/people’s strength can show through is worthwhile too. The strength to get up everyday to try and put food on the table, put their kids through school even though you may live in a dire stuation.
Erica;
I’m going through the same hurdles as you at the moment. Applying for funding through our arts board, which means learning the entire “process”. But I’m also trying for commercial sponsorship too. As it’s a youth project, trying to find companies that are youth related and want to present a positive youth “face”
I think your project was street portraits in NY? Is it worth looking for a commercial sponsor who celebrates the diversity of life in NY? Just a few thoughts…
Cheers
Preston,
I wasn’t angered by Carl’s work. I thought it was quite good. It just was that I felt as if I was seeing many young photographers all at once tackling the same theme. I guess nothing really wrong with that. I am more interested in the idea of the ‘American style’ of photojournalism vs. everything else that is out there and why so many American students are shooting in a particular way. David said it would be tough for them to get to Arles, but there is the internet and it is very easy to see eclectic work these days and to have your mind opened up by other ways of shooting.
@preston. “That’s usually called honesty, a trait we all claim to admire.” In my experience of life, truth and honesty are the very last things people really want, and will rarely forgive you for it.
JIM
“More street shots of New York. That’s what we need.”
So..rural poverty, grainy/blurry, nyc street shots, montages, victims of accidents, orphans in distant lands and other things I have forgotten are all off your list.
What would you like to see work on? I believe you’ve said you like work shot in one’s own back yard..but the streets of nyc are my backyard, so that’s a tough one to figure. What would make you happy?
Thank you, Preston, for offering a well thought out and clearly expressed analysis of the question: Is photographing poverty a cliche in today’s world? I’m with Brian here: you have said exactly what needs to be said. Poverty IS ugly. Poor people DO “do unsavory things like abuse drugs and neglect their children.” Yes, the rich do the same but it is behind closed doors and ignored by the authorities, the media and their neighbors. Poverty is OUT THERE on the streets of our cities and in rural areas across the country and across the globe. The only poverty anyone wants to see is if it is in some exotic place, some place that bears no resemblance to us at home.
As you say, Carl Kiilsgaard dared to point his camera at poverty here at home, and we see where that got him. His work was villified and pushed off the internet, for, even though he left the White Family essay up on his website, the most offensive (truthful) photos were removed. If you look at it now, the White family just looks like a family who may be poor but their lives are full of smiles. Yeah, right.
And as you say, Preston, we here on Burn were right in the middle of it all. Not all of us but enough were not just turned off but angered by Carl’s daring to show the poverty he saw in Letcher Count, Kentucky. Well, I hope your comment will open up the discussion again, a discussion that was cut short by anonymous posts that threatened our photographer colleague with punishment now and in the hereafter.
Patricia
EMCD:
I think if you can shoot photos of cute kids eating ice cream with butterflies and birds flying around them in pretty light where everything looks soooo wonderful, then Jim would be happy.
I don’t even know why you bothered to comment on his comment.
PRESTON…BRIAN…PATRICIA
this is a tough one….Carl got in with a family and made a great essay…i finally saw his entire take, and it is quite amazing…what he submitted to Burn was only a small part of his body of work…
i just spent about 20 minutes talking to Carl about his role with the White family and the consequences that have flowed in around him….Carl wants to keep the essay off of Burn until he has time to meet again with the Whites….what i did not know until a few minutes ago was that it was not the comments on Burn alone which upset the White family, but the story was cut and pasted on various other websites, some pictures taken totally out of context, and thus the ensuing anger from the White family towards Carl…
at this point, i think Carl has done the right thing by keeping the essay off of Burn…i think at some point it will come back, minus the two or three very controversial pictures showing drug use and physical abuse….these were the ones upsetting the White family..and even though they knew full well Carl took those pictures and Carl had their complete trust , they did not expect them to be shown to the world…drug use creates a variety of mood swings where what may have seemed fine at the moment, later becomes inappropriate ..
this also happened to me with Living Proof and i withheld several potentially controversial pictures from the book involving illegal activity with a celebrity…i was even told by phone ,that if i published the very pictures they asked me to take in a moment of drug induced euphoria, “we will either sue you or shoot you”..not fond of either option , i withheld those pictures from Living Proof…
not everyone feels the same..Eugene Richards went ahead with graphic drug use pictures for Cocaine Blue, Cocaine True and he also paid the price of much derision and scorn from the black community where he had been working…he “rode it out” and now his book stands as monumental..many forget all the controversy thrust upon Gene at the time where he was accused by many of being racist by showing only the black community as cocaine users….
FYI, the illegal activities in these pictures of Carl’s (or of Gene’s or mine) would not be legal admissible evidence in a court of law as i understand it… …however, the subjects probably do not see it that way…
in any case, it ends up truly being a personal decision about this type of work being published…i think Carl is making the right decision now…we will see how it all transpires in the long run…
cheers, david
DAH
I’ve always wondered about the people Donna Ferrato photographed for Living With the Enemy, and how / why they were okay with the project if they were..
PETE
because I want to understand..Jim has made a life around photography, and yet he seems to not appreciate so much of it..sociologically I am intrigued / confused. I didn’t realize it was possible to be passionate about some tiny little fragment of an art form without at least a rational appreciation for the wider set..
emcd, I think you should shoot whatever you want to shoot. Everyone should do that. But don’t think that because you shoot them everyone wants to see still more photos of the streets of New York.
DAH,
I did go to Carl’s site to see more. What was on Burn, I thought, was a bit too tight of an edit. I really craved to see more, and I was floored with the quality and intimacy of the work. I felt that the images brought me into their home, and made me part of their family. It is extraordinary work.
Although I agree with many peoples’ feelings about drive-by photography of poverty in America. It has become somewhat cliché, but there are samples of work that transcend those clichés. The first that comes to mind is the work of fellow Iowan, Danny Wilcox Frasier’s “Driftless.” Carl’s work may not be quite of that caliber, but it is close.
I am saddened that he came under such fire and possibly ruined his relationship with the Whites. The images may not be admissible in the court of law, but unfortunately, public opinion is not quite as particular. I hope better things lie ahead for this work, and for Carl.
JIM
of course I will shoot what I want to shoot, and not everyone will want to see it.
I am asking, what in photography do you like? Standard question..who are your 3 favorite photographers, and why?
ERICA…
after i wrote my last comment, i was wondering the same…i just do not know enough about what Donna’s subjects thought or did after her book to comment in an educated manner…i know Donna well and will ask her…her work did involve something which nobody can condone, physical abuse towards women….she probably did not care what the abusers thought or would do to her…and remember, she had the trust of the women and did not betray them…i am sure she felt the men got the bad publicity they deserved….this is just my guess….
The thing I find interesting about Eugene Richards is that, despite the stories he does, is that he really doesn’t think that photography can change things. Since I agree, I consider him a genius! ;)
I guess Carl really didn’t think through the consequences or ethics of posting his essay on the web. I’m sure the result was educational.
BRIAN…
i agree …the edit was too tight…but, that was Carl’s edit/choice and not mine….i did not see Carl’s whole shoot until long after the EPF selection was over…
Thanks, David, for sharing what you learned from Carl and also for sharing what you experienced yourself in a similar–but potentially more life threatening–situation with Living Proof. I certainly understand Carl’s decision to pull the controversial photos but am still sorry that he had to do so. They may not have been what any of us wanted to see but they were expressions of the truth. I guess the whole truth is not what people want shown about their lives. I can appreciate that. In my self portraits I certainly chose what portions of the truth I was willing to share.
Patricia
Easy. DAH, Steve McCurry, William Albert Allard, if I have to pick just three. Why I like them I think is obvious.
JIM…
after my long conversation with Carl, i am sure he would agree with you…
JIM
that’s cool..not who I would have guessed exactly..the reason isn’t obvious to me..would you be willing to share?
PATRICIA…
yes, this is very complicated…for sure Carl photographed the truth….or, at least one of the “truths” about the White family…however, i am sure you can see that photographing your truth is a bit different than photographing and publishing someone else’ truth..and you have decided to show which part of the truth about yourself you want to show to the world…most of us probably have some “truth” about ourselves that we would not want to put up for public consumption…..there are shades of gray in here….
DAH..
just saw your Donna comment..I am sure you are right, but really my question is about the men / man, and how / why they were okay with Donna’s presence..
from a quick googling..
“Ferrato rode over 6,000 hours with police around the country to get some of the photographs in Living With the Enemy.”
and
“The boy is saying to his father, ‘I hate you for hitting my mother, and I hope you never come back to this house.’ Nobody, even the parents who signed a release for this picture, realized how powerful it was going to be until they saw it in the magazine and they flipped out.”Donna Ferrato.
two different scenarios for permissions, I suppose..
Didn’t Eugene Richards get model releases for everything he shot in Cocaine Blue, Cocaine True? I’m sure i read somewhere that he did… What a job that must have been
DAH
I keep getting my emails bounced back. Your mailbox is apparently full.
Somebody knows about travelling with slide film (Provia 100F) for a long time and in very warm countries?
I will go for two months to India and prefer to photograph on slide film. But I’m a bit anxious if the colors will change a bit or not, due to the warm climat and the length of stay. Anyone has any experience with this? It would be very helpfull to me.. Thanks
Anyone has any experience with travelling a long time with slide film in hot countries?
I will travel for two months to India and like to take slide film with me (Provia 100F). But I am a bit anxious if the colors can change a bit or not due to high temperatures in India together with the length of stay. It would be helpfull to me if somebody had any experience with this.. Thanks
I didn’t follow this whole situation. So, somehow the White family saw his work on Burn? Do these people have internet? I suppose they do if they have cable tv. . .
DAH: How can I contact Carl? I e-mailed him a month ago about wanting to buy a print and he never e-mailed me back.
David/Anton:
2 quick questions. I ask these respectfully, so please see them for what they are:
1) Why is Burn publishing multiple work by photographers?? You know I love Kyung-hee’s NY workshop stuff, just as i adored her Oslo and Aquarium stuff and praised all at Road Trips…and you know i am happy for anton’s project but why, considering (or at least what was once submitted) the submissions and the number of photographers who are interested in publishing, how is it possible to publisher the same photographer more than once in 7 months….this has happened a few times….i do not wish to make either of you defensive, that is not my intent, but i just do not get it whatsoever….the other idea, at least for me as a published photographer here is that out of reasonable decency, i’d never submit more work within a given time period…it looks, honestly, greedy…this applies to singles too, multiple publication by single photographers…
2) all my comments still come up as Spam and i have to log in under my old password to retrieve them…is there a way to ensure that my comments will not be spammed…??
all the best
bob
i mean, my comments become ‘spam’ if i write under the Essay….
bb
Another take on photographing Appalachia.
Interviw with Shelby Lee Adams http://interviewwithanartist.com/?p=323
bobblack,
i would rather you read john ashbery than post it. thank you, honestly.
great poems are meant to be heard, not read ;)
and thanks for saying your first comment. i would think there would be a few more photogs who would have liked to be published. though i dont fault photographers for submitting more than once. if there is great work to be seen, it should be shared (submitted). i dont fault dah for choosing more than once this is his website. i think he can post whoever he would like.
That was way too long a piece to post in a thread on an essay. Is anyone really going to read something that long?
And why, with everyone that would like to get published, are people being published here more than once?
Jim Powers,
why not? I have submitted another pieve, David expressed interest in publishing it, a piece Ive worked on for over 2 years. Why is being published once a limit on further work being published? Its up to David anyway, isnt it? Why are you so interested in telling him how to run his show?
Rafal, just an opinion. With so many photographers looking for a venue, why publish multiple submissions by the same photographers?
Well, I sent pictures to BURN because David mentionned he didn’t get too many. But I would think the problem has been fixed and people have been sending, so I need not send anymore for a while since I have been featured in March already.
Its up to David. Ask him. I think David will publish what is best, and if Kyunghee’s was one of the best, why not publsih it. Ok, let’s say David publshes something by McCurry…I can already picture your response “He is world famous, why publish him with so many submisssions?” Is this also how you operate your paper? Oh, he’s been publsihed here before, I cant publish him again.
No offense to Kyunghee, and David does as he sees fit, of course, but I do agree with Bob and Jim.
What is this, little league? Everyone should be able to play?
The magazine is curated by David Alan Harvey — says so at the top. One (maybe a few others) guys taste. Relax, everyone, it’s not like the same 5 people are getting published over and over again.
BOB…JIM…
hmmmm, it seems to me that most magazines/book publishers/ newspapers publish the work of “regulars” all the time…pretty standard procedure i think…i am looking for good work from new photographers of course and most certainly from photographers who may find a home here……just as the two of you are among the most prolific writers here with way more words than anyone else……if some people have more good photographic work than others, then i surely will publish it…..yours most surely included….
HERVE…
if you take another picture as strong as the wedding picture you took, it will be right up at the top….i am waiting…
cheers, david
yes, Jared, we know that.
But I am sure I remember david telling us how floored he was by all the talent he was able to see in the EPF and the submissions, anfd around BURN in general. For example, he said, there were 25 essays from the EPF that made it very difficult to bring down to 10. It’s OK to ask then, no?
Patricia wrote under Kyunghee’s essay also: “if it is good, then show it, doesn’t matter if it’s the same photographer”.
But Patricia, you are the same person celebrating and ENCOURAGING the diversity shown in essays, and on top, has been the one person to give always appreciative comments on almost every essay, and for sure, every essay, that’s a lot, that you posted under.
Simply, David wanted to highlight Kyunghee, IMO, unrelated to the quality of other works he receives. And we want to see more voices, more visions, more photographers. A little tension tug between him and us is not altogether detrimental.
KRISTOF….
i have traveled for long periods of time in very hot climates with slide film….generally there is no problem as long as the film is not directly in the sunlight and is somewhat protected…in really severe heat, i do buy coolers and pack the film in ice…
if you take another picture as strong as the wedding picture you took, it will be right up at the top
——————————————-
I tell you, David, I am absolutely flattered that you hold me to such standards. You have never written that here to anyone else, and I am also as proud that my photo is the only one you gave a comment under.
yet, even though I am more of a single pix guy than an essayist, so far, I believe photography is not always about taking pictures “as strong”. I am sure you agree, but OK, boss: for BURN, only “as strong” pictures from me. ;-)
herve
I’m just saying, what probably 200 published pictures/essays and we’ve seen what? 5 overlaps. Seems we’re looking for a problem….
HERVE…
i think all editors look at balance and sequence in publishing…for example, it seemed that Kyunghee’s story was perfect after Imants and Imants was just right following the Sultan Sea piece….like a coach, you send in the right player at the right time…or, should i say, try to!! it is definitely a juggle and we must just try to keep the percentages of good timing as good as is humanly possible…
you will most certainly see all of those 25 i mentioned and more…it will take several weeks to do this…i can only publish 2 or 3 essays per week….the processing of these stories is a full time job for both Anton and me…what was entered into the EPF and what comes to us in submissions is never a finished product…seeing pictures is one thing, having them ready to go is quite another….from pictures on a desk , to pictures in a publication is a longer process than you may realize…if you go shoot an essay for me, then you will know all that we go through to get it to the readers here..ask Rafal for example…we worked with him for weeks on his essay….as in all things, what looks like it should be easy is not….
on another note, i must say it is very curious how few strong singles we receive…as i said above, go shoot some good singles for me amigo…you will be published often!!!
cheers, david
JARED…
you are quite correct….weird that this would come up …..or,some kind of what i call the “sour grape syndrome”
David,
In case you missed the three messages I posted today regarding a new book idea for you…please take a look.
HERVE…
perhaps the word strong is wrong…but let’s just say that if you , or anyone, submits a picture that i feel is compelling for any variety of reasons, than i will publish it….Young Tom Hyde for example is a very good singles photographer…he has never had an essay here, yet i think we have published four of his singles and we have i think two more that can go up at any time…if you have something you think i should see, please show me…i will not publish it just because you are Herve, but i will not exclude it because you are Herve who had a very nice picture published two months ago either…every editor i think finally comes to rely on certain photographers who for whatever reasons are able to create more publishable work than others…that is certainly and obviously why you know particular “names” from magazines and books…if we do receive some funding for Burn to give photographers commissions, then most likely i would come to rely on specific talents and at the same time be always always looking for new blood….
i am quite certain of one thing…there will be photographers here who will be “discovered” because of Burn….if i keep this magazine going for a couple of years, there will surely be two or three among the best here who will definitely make a mark….either with a published book or with several powerful essays that will propel them into a higher level of respect in our craft…if this were not so, then my work here would be of no value….
keep your eye and your mind on what i just said…when we meet for a cold beer sometime in the future, i truly believe you will then know exactly what i mean….
cheers, david
CATHY…
sorry, i guess i did miss your comments…hard to keep up sometimes!!! i will sleep now, but will go back and take a look at your comments with my morning coffee and respond to you then…..i did take a look at your new rodeo work and i assume you received my e-mail…yes??
cheers, david
I have no problem with multiple publications personally. I enjoyed seeing Kyunghee’s latest work as it is good to see new images from someone who’s work you are already familiar with. for example I much preferred her last essay to this newer work. Its nice to compare and contrast.
David: I take it its a “no”. ;)
Hi DAVID.
I read your outline on how you as an editor think about and plan work in advance. I have much work from about 15 years of photographing, and for me its been maybe the same way a poet will write poems and store them away in their drawer, never to be seen again. I’d like to get some photo’s shown here on burn just to at least get feedback, which i’m lacking. Since your EPF i have made a homepage at ‘photoshelter’ and quickly filled it, which is only a fraction from my film archive. My difficulty is I dont know what to send to you first as you say, your discission is made up more complexly than any one piece you may or may not like. I’ve never found it easy to decide on one image i prefer over another. any suggestions would be much appreciated.
thanks Dave, always enjoy looking and reading here at burn.
if you have something you think i should see, please show me…
——————————
I Dunno, David, I am happy you featured me in March (1). I am shooting, no bad news on that side, and on top of it, I am patient.
(1) I hope the sour grapes comment was not for me. Remember what we said last year on RT, that if the written comment were talked between us (I think we mentionned by the fridge, a cold one in hand), there would hardly be no contention. as if by the fridge, with a beer, It’s the best way to read us all, I think.
Hi David, I have just posted some thoughts under Kyung-hee’s essay about the impression cliqueness.
I love Burn, it is inspirational, motivating ,exciting and I do not want any harm to come to Burn, but there is often an impression that there are favoured photographers, I have mentioned this in the past. This is a tricky subject because it is not sour grapes.
Obviously you have a clearer understanding of the work of photographers who have been on your workshops and what they are trying to achieve so you have an indepth knowledge of their style, approach to work and how they have developed.
The attendees of workshops might be the ones who are submitting the most work so inevitably they will be published the most.
There is also a rash of responses gushing with unfettered praise from fellow attendees of workshops, whenever an attendee is published. This all leads to the impression of an exclusive clique.
I know you are unbiased in your editing but it is an unfortunate consequence that this is the impression that often comes across here.
I have said this with the utmost respect as I believe wholeheartedly in Burn and what YOU are doing, I just do not want to see it tarred with this brush of narcissism.
Regards
Ian
I do not see any problem with multiple presentation of one photographer. I didn’t read all comments yet but David mentioned abut “magazines” rules. And this is good rule.
I don’t see any problem with 10 publishing of one photographer.
I wish to see more Kyunghee’s essays.
And more Bob’s.
And any of Jim’s.
It’s inevitable that a certain style has/will develop on burn, as it is with all sites but it is only one piece of the puzzle so let the site finds it home. If it befits your sensibilities you will remain a regular viewer, if not well keep searching.
Though I do tend to agree with you Ian just as I am sure David is aware of the trend but he has tried to vary things considering he did post my offering. I was happy to get a new audience all be it for a short time and the work did present a different stance towards photography even if it is a one off. The fact that most here do prefer the magnum trend is fair enough, there is a heck of a lot of variety to experience, enjoy, keep discard etc.
Me personally I can live with this as follows
It is a thing just like the landscapes and stone walls I build ……..
stuff that will change and disappear
It is good to question the way things are being done sometimes (question authority, like the stupid car stickers say), especially when Ian does it as sensitively as he did. It should be part of the normal discussion between people with dedication for a medium, and for this site.
David: “i am quite certain of one thing…there will be photographers here who will be “discovered” because of Burn….if i keep this magazine going for a couple of years, there will surely be two or three among the best here who will definitely make a mark….”
I’m not sure what to make of this in the context of the current discussion. Are you saying that the cream will rise to the top here? Can we expect to see progressively more of the work of certain photographers as you work with them, “discover” them? Is that what this is all about?
“An evolving journal for emerging photographers” actually does make sense in that context. It explains my continued confusion over what “emerging” actually means. I had just assumed there would be a constant stream of the work of good but unknown photographers, a venue for those who might not find other venues to publish their work. But this is about something entirely different, isn’t it.
IMANTS…
i hope you are not a “one off”…i would (a) love to publish more of your work (b) be totally open to more experimental work ….my mind is open…my doors are open….my only limitation is from who submits what…if you know of someone who needs a good venue and is as committed to working in a special way as are you, then please have them submit….i am not excited by getting locked into any particular look or style..that would be totally boring for me….what would be the point??
IAN…
this gushing of writers over a particular photographer because they saw their work in a workshop presentation was not necessarily from anyone who has ever been in one of my workshops…the comments i saw on Kyunghee for example were not from workshop participants….for the grand finale slide shows i invite the whole creative community of New York or wherever i happen to be , so the audience is just an audience , not just workshop participants…since i do about 6 major workshops per year in a wide variety of locations, i suppose over time this demographic does build up…but a very small percentage of the work published here is from one of my students, nor are most of the writers here students of mine…
i have said this many times, but it never quite sinks in , that the writers here constitute less than a half of one percent of the readers here…so what you read is not necessarily what the audience of Burn is all about…so while it may seem that some writers are quite familiar with other writers etc is just a product of blog life, not representative of the overall readership…another factor of course is that i do end up meeting so many here in my various travels…many of us have become friends…i see this as only positive and just sorry that you and i happen to miss on my last London trip…
however, please note that most of the regular writers here have NEVER been published…like Erica M who is as loyal as you could imagine and Jim and Ross and Gracie and Jared and Marcin and Ben and you and well on and on…again, please do not confuse commentators with readers and comments with pictures published….
PETER GRANT..
please just send me a link to your work: david@burnmagazine.org……i will be pleased to take a look…
JIM…
now you are confusing me!! i understand everything you write, but then get confused by your conclusion/question…
Burn is totally about a constant stream of unknown photographers..YES….if in this process some photographers might make a mark , then that would seem to be a logical by-product ..YES..
you question: “but this is about something entirely different, isn’t it?” …you lost me on that one..
what exactly is your question?? i will do my best to answer…
cheers, david
Just submitted my latest work that I finished last night about a 44 year-old mixed martial arts fighter training for his last fight. Really pleased with it. Hope you are too.
BRIAN…
thanks for submitting…i will take a look this afternoon….
DAH—
I keep getting this message when trying to email you….
Final-Recipient: rfc822; david@davidalanharvey.com
Original-Recipient: rfc822;david@davidalanharvey.com
Action: failed
Status: 5.0.0
Remote-MTA: dns; ismtp.livebooks.everyone.net
Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 550 Recipient Rejected: Mailbox would exceed maximum
allowed storage
PETE…
damn Pete…as i said in my email to you…go to Skype!!!!
e-mail is the least viable way to reach me…..
IMANTS…
yes…..Ozymandias
DAMN David… as I said in the email you are not getting… I don’t even know what SKYPE is… (grin)
email, voicemail, twitter, facebook, skype…. CHRIST!!! how many different ways can we figure out to confuse simple conversation?
You do realize that with your iPhone you have free long distance and we can talk to each other without even using minutes, since we are on the same network?
OK OK… I will go figure out this SKYPE THING.
DAH,
Thanks. I also submitted information this morning for the San Francisco American Family workshop. Didn’t mean to double-up your workload today, just how it worked out.
CATHY….
i have thought from the beginning of Road Trips/Burn that our mutual efforts here could/should result in a book….i thought the questions and the exchange between us to be perhaps more educational than a straight “advice” book and more of a journal of shared experience at a particular time…i think this book will indeed happen at some stage
with three books now in various stages of development, i just do not have the time or inclination to do a “how to” style book…when it comes to passing on the torch, i have my workshops where i can do more with the one on one experience than i think i can do in a book…i am being urged now by many to do a very inexpensive set of dvd’s with some of the material i cover in a workshop…i am thinking about this one…maybe yes, maybe no…my online mentoring seems to work the best of all for folks who just cannot leave home…
thanks for thinking …mucho appreciated….
cheers, david
PETE…
yes, go figure out the Skype thing….that way you can actually see my bald head instead of just imagining it….and it is free too!! free is good these days
I don’t understand… To all SKYPE users here, help me out….
Skype (pronounced /ˈskaɪp/) is a software application that allows users to make voice calls over the Internet. Calls to other users of the service, and in some countries to free-of-charge numbers are free, while calls to other landlines and mobile phones can be made for a fee.
I have free long distance and I never use all my program minutes (they rollover). Aren’t most cell phone plans like this? What is the need for free calls on the internet?
What is the point?
DAVID: yes I was trying to avoid the “BALD HEAD” thing!
I need to go track down some monks walking the highway… Ill get back to you.
STEVE M/HERVE:
i HAVE removed the John Asbery poem under Kyung0-Hee’s essay and posted a link….
i happen to know her privately and left it for her, not to be overbearing…u guys dont know me at all…
either way, i’ve removed it…
cleary cleary, what i do here is misaligned…
b
PETE
you might need to experience it, it isn’t that much better it is just different..for one it is hand’s free, so you can be editing and talking at the same time, and you can see each other if you have a little camera on the computer, so you get facial expressions and all..and besides, everybody’s doin’ it :) what are you, chicken? sorry, had to be 11 again for a sec. just try it, it won’t hurt
PETE…
i am laughing…the fact that i know one tiny little tech thing that you do not know is pretty funny since i know almost nothing…Erica is quite right, Skype is the way to go for online editing and just general conversation…i have been writing to Marcin now for three years…however, we connected by Skype the other day, and it was a whole new world…to actually see him and his expressions etc was just a revelation…i felt we had “met” finally…
David, I appreciate you showing my work here, most photographic avenues get closed to me the usual hoo haa, it’s not fart, it’s not photography etc …….it’s pretty lonely in my treehouse but I do know a couple of people who might want to tilt the sails of the burn windmill
………….. thanks
And if you have an iPhone you can get Skype for it and then get your own SkpypeIn number which allows for you to have calls made to your normal iPhone forwarded to the SkypeIn number so people can call you anywhere in the world and just be calling a local number!
Hi David
I have left a message before, but I think it got lost in all the posts. I would love it if you could take a look at some of the work I have submitted to Burn as well. If you can, that would be great. If not, I understand. All the best, K…
KENNETH…
i see everything that is submitted for Burn…i just cannot respond to all of it…in any case, i will let you know what i am thinking this afternoon regarding your submission….
David,
You asked last night if I had received your email. I did and wrote back thanking you. Thanks again! :))
As far as the “advice” book or workshop dvd… I like the dvd idea…although a book lasts longer.
A book of excerpts from burn/road trips sounds okay but I think most people want your advice, not our ramblings. If you format it with our questions and your responses that would be cool.
The point is to make your wisdom available to a larger audience…and there is a LARGE audience out there who would be interested. Those who don’t spend a lot of time discussing photography on the internet or attending workshops. We are fortunate to be able to “hang out” with you…it would be great if there was an additional format to share the type of advice we get. When the time is right something will come along I’m sure.
David,
The Magnum group show is now hanging in Santa Fe. I attended a lecture/slideshow with Constantine Manos yesterday. Very enjoyable…Carlan Tapp was there too. There are several other events this weekend.
When I see the number of photographers hanging around afterwards with questions, wanting advice, etc is when I start thinking about the need/demand for a book. I’m sure at Look3 and other places you are bombarded by photographers after you give a talk. The audience is out there…it’s just a question of what you want to offer.
thanks david, i dont mean to be a pest. sorry if i came across that way. all the best, kenneth
u guys dont know me at all…
—————————–
Maybe, but even if I “knew” you, i’d have reacted the same way, Bob. That’s the whole point.
Cathy,
where are the Costa Manos talk scribbles ??? :) I need information!
I think he is a lovely lovely man..I was his TA for a class at Maine Photographic long ago and far away..if I remember correctly he gave everyone in the workshop, and myself each a different signed silver gelatin print..mine is hanging framed and deeply appreciated every day..
this is mine, circa 1964 Greece
http://www.magnumphotos.com/CorexDoc/MAG/Media/TR3/F/W/L/Y/PAR51766.jpg
CATHY…
sorry i missed your email…email is now for me something with which i cannot deal…over the top is the only way to describe it…in any case, thanks for thinking…actually i started Road Trips because some of my students told me the same thing you are telling me…i think if one were to now search the archives here, there would be a whole lot of information and some of my most spontaneous writing…..
which Magnum show is in Santa Fe?? we have several different shows moving around…
cheers, david
Kenneth…and all :)))
JUST saw this on a photo blog…thought it very appropriate after your comment about not wanting to be a pest. I also relate to this.
“The lesson is one that applies to anything in life – if something is important to you, go after it, let the relevant people know, remind them and remind them again. Sure you there’s a chance that you may come across as annoying, but I’d rather come across as annoying and have an opportunity to maximize the return from my efforts than be a nice, complacent fellow who gets almost nothing for his hard work.”
-Mitchell Kanashkevitch
http://www.magnumphotos.com/CorexDoc/MAG/Media/TR3/F/W/L/Y/PAR51766.jpg
————-
Thanks Cathy, that is just the kind of photo I needed to see on BURN this morning.
BTW, time for my drone question to you: did you like the Eggleston video?
I am getting a bit more into Kyunghee Lee (I will never spell your name right, K, apologies) shots, yet finds it in the whole unachieved, and more time in NYC would take her to other levels, where her own personal NYC (this is everyone’s NYC, wethere one has been there or not) would overwhlem the technique used, which we notice too easily on so many shots. Personal is what I think K is after, the title tells us so.
It’s a tug of war. I appreciate seeing what she did in NYC, at the same time, I think for photographers who are represented more than others on BURN, the standard should be: much better than the last one, not just another page of their photographic diary.
PS: Telling us the essay must be good, since she saw Paul Fusco whispering in K’s ear… Patricia, Patricia, PATRICIA, COME OOOON! :-))))))))
David,
Which Magnum show is hanging here?
I can tell you who’s in it…
Cartier-Bresson/Capa/Davidson/Dworzak/Erwitt/Fusco/Manos/Meiselas/McCurry/Reed/Webb
It Opens tonight but I saw it hanging (in an empty gallery as opposed to the madness of tonight) when I went to the Manos talk. Amazing to see all that great work hanging together. Very inspirational to know how much hard work went into getting all those images.
I will miss tonight (off doing my own shooting) but hope to attend the Manos, Meiselas and Fusco talks.
OK, sorry Patricia. More gossip, less critique, maybe that’s good for BURN too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wjBOjjRvnGk
:-))))))))))))))))))))))))))))) (this is called an over-bearing smiley!!!)
Erica…
Where are you? I could use your help here transcribing!
Nevermind…I know where you are. In bliss :))
Thought of you when I saw Davidson’s work….which I love too.
I love that Manos print. He showed it yesterday.
(HERVE…it was Erica’s link, not mine.)
Scribbles? To tell you the truth, the one line I wrote down was from Carlan Tapp, a Santa Fe photographer whose essay is here on burn. During a conversation about “trends” in photography he said:
“At the end of the day draw a line straight from your heart to your work.”
Manos told the story of his career and showed slides. Talked about how he had a “down” time in photography and then discovered color, which rejuvenated him. He’s got a new color book (part two of his American Color) coming out this Fall.
Several times during his talk he mentioned the word “real.” He was shooting “real”moments, no posing, etc. At the end he took questions so I asked if there was such a thing as a real moment…asked what he thinks of fictionalized essays, etc. It sparked a great exchange between Manos and the audience…Debbie Fleming Caffrey was there too. It was the only time I saw him get really excited, talking about all the crappy photography that he’s seen in the past few years. How much of it is all about the concept, not the execution. He used some pretty strong language to express his distaste for it.
Then someone asked what he thought about reports that Cartier-Bresson posed people in his shots. He disputed it but felt that if in fact that was true, there was no way he could have posed all of what was happening.
Manos said that at this stage of his life he’s looking to focus only on his personal work.
He has a big retrospective of his work in Greece (I’m sure your print will be there) coming up and he’s working with three of his longtime students on a group show.
He lives in Provincetown and Hollywood, Florida (where I attended High School.) Some of his new color work was shot at the beach I hung out at.
I’ll try to take some “real” notes at the other talks.
I saw him get really excited, talking about all the crappy photography that he’s seen in the past few years. How much of it is all about the concept, not the execution. He used some pretty strong language to express his distaste for it.
————————————-
For Manos, hip hip hip HURRAH!
(Nice to know we are not alone)
Hey David… I’m going to bump this up on the possiblity that it was missed. Seems to be the smart thing to do as email clearly would likely get lost in the ether.
https://www.burnmagazine.org/dialogue/2009/05/buzz/comment-page-76/#comment-45533
Let me know if life’s just too crazy for you these days.
Thanks.
ERICA —
I have some (bad) audio of a Salgado talk here in LA a few months back, be happy to send it over if you like.
ALL:
Can I ask a quick favour of you guy?… I’m currently going back and forth over a couple of images in an edit and would love to get and few other opinions. I have posted the two images at…
http://www.jameschance.com/2_pics/
The images are of patient visiting a doctor in Peru. The patient has an extreme facial tumour (note: they are not too graphic however).
I am maybe erring toward the first shot as it shows the doctor as well, thus giving us more info on the situation, but the second is a little tighter and therefor adds a little more image variety to my edit as a whole.
If anyone has a spare minute to take a look I would be very grateful to hear your choice. Cheers!!!
CATHY…
where was it ever reported that HCB posed some of his photographs?? never heard that one…oh wait, maybe i did hear that he posed the shot of the guy jumping across the puddle…is that it??
no report on Debbie?? she is one of my favorites…
MICHAEL…
sure, we can get together at some point and take another look at your work…you were working on Great Falls, correct?? finding the time and place is the only issue…the rest of my summer is pretty much booked…so, i am guessing that if i come to Washington in september that would be our best bet…any better idea??
cheers, david
DAH: What happened to Delahaye?! I mean he did that 6×12 History panoramic project and then I’ve never seen anything sense. I know he was selling those prints at Hasted Hunt for quite a bit and the 100 copies at $1000 of the limited edition book all sold out like the first night, but that was all a few years ago now.
http://hastedhunt.com/artist_press_article.php?ID=245&a=ron_haviv&i=57596
James, the first image. At least at a single side-by-side comparison. Gives more of a sense of place. The second looks a bit too tight, almost as if you wanted to focus on the tumor, not that he was sick. My 2¢.
More interesting Delahaye reading:
http://www.artnet.com/magazine/features/sullivan/sullivan4-10-03.asp
http://www.guardian.co.uk/artanddesign/2004/jan/31/photography
http://www.americansuburbx.com/2009/05/theory-michael-fried-on-luc-delahaye.html
James,
I also prefer the wider one. Like that crooked picture on the wall.
David,
It was the first I’d heard of HCB posing people.
Some guy from the audience brought it up and Manos seemed to know what he was talking about, although he didn’t necessarily agree.
Debbie? She sat in the audience, looked lovely :)) That’s about it.
She has a very nice show up at photo eye. Did a book signing there recently.
David…
September in DC would be just fine! Though, I might find my way down the coast toward NC in the coming weeks. If you’re around… maybe?
James, the wider one. Because of the waterfall ;-)… But why the vignetting?
James, I agree with Bryan and Cathy that the first shot is the most pleasing to view. It just seems to “breathe” better; the extra space gives the eye room to wander, just as if I were in the room with them. The second seems just a bit too “in your face”.
Gosh, Herve, all I was doing was reminding Kyunghee of that moment. Not allowed?
Patricia
James, the wider composition is my preference,as well.
James, not sure, but I really like the stance of the man behind in the second shot (tighter framed), which gives more mood to the scene, and a sense of (brotherly?) concern missing in the first one.
I also am mesmerized by the hat that my eyes are telling me it should be falling, and it’s not. Adds a of surrealist touch, which is more an after-thought detail in the wider shot.
My 2 jpeggies! :-)
DAH / ALL
talking about how much posing goes on, just saw this, The Lost Pictures of Eugene Smith (In 1950 the American photo-journalist W Eugene Smith came to Britain to cover the general election for Life Magazine, but his photographs were never published. Welsh writer and broadcast Professor Dai Smith goes in search of these lost pictures and discovers how the magazine’s opposition to Attlee’s radical Labour government caused them to suppress Smith’s work.) see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LjsYYKZdCo&feature=related to watch the piece.
..in segment 4/4 the professor finds one of the men pictured (Vernon Harding) in the beautiful image of three coal miners on the hillside (http://www.smithfund.org/images/welsh_miners.jpg) tells his recollection of how the picture was made:
Vernon Harding: I remember the day, it was a fine day. We were coming up from the quarry at 3 o’clock. There was a bloke leaning on the gate, he opened the gate for us to come through and he said would you mind me taking a photograph of you? I said, no, it’s all right. I thought he wanted to take a photograph with the colliery behind us, coming home from work. But no he didn’t want that he wanted Coed Ely in the background and he wanted us looking back at the colliery. So he didn’t actually physically position us, but he did tell us how to stand and how to look. He wanted Ozzie looking at him, he wanted Willie just glancing sideways with a cigarette still in his mouth, which he always had. And he wanted, he said I want you looking over your shoulder. And he took two or three photographs, he may have moved us around a little bit. And he took two or three photographs like that. Whether he was looking for something in particular I don’t know. Looking afterwards, I thought he was looking for something in particular.
CATHY
bliss indeed, though I only got 3 hours of sleep and that was leaving early..well worth the fatigue today. (Coming home on the subway at such an odd hour I kept thinking about Bruce D’s book Subway, and how different it would be if done today.)
Your report was good even without notes..please do try to take a few for the other talks if you can.
HERVE
I did love the Eggleston Real World video..did you hear about this? “William Eggleston’s pioneering video work, “Stranded In Canton,” has been restored and is finally available, almost thirty-five years after it was made.” http://www.twinpalms.com/?p=forthcoming&bookID=172
excerpts from the film: http://www.egglestontrust.com/stranded_in_canton.html
JARED
if you think the audio is usable, please send with details of when and where it was taken and by who, and I can try..erica (at) ericamcodnaldphoto.com
JAMES
Just took a look (before reading all the comments – no influence!) and I prefer the wider version. It just feels more complete to me than the other, and even without the other images a get a sense of story that the tighter shot doesn’t give me.
Now to go back and see what everyone else said :)
Well that’s pretty unanimous! (and quick!!) Thanks folks!! hhmmmmnnnn… Maybe I should ask the Burn group to make all my tricky decisions in life!!… (I wonder where I would end up!!?)
JV: The vignetting is part of the reflection. I didn’t add it. (Promise!)
ALL
I’ll be in NYC next week for work, and will have some time in the evenings to get together if there are any burnians who are so inclined. I’ll be in the Chelsea area, and also hope to get out in the evenings for some NYC street photography….so any tips on the area also appreciated – I haven’t been there in years.
Hmm…changed my profile to add a web link, then posted…does that flag me in the spam filter?
hmm, added a link to my profile and got stuck in the spam filter….how annoying.
Everyone
I will be in NYC next week for business, and will have some time in the evenings to get together if any burnians are so inclined….will be in the Chelsea area. Also hope to get out and shoot some. If anyone has suggestions for that area please let me know, I haven’t been in NYC for *ages*.
good light, all,
a.
MICHAEL…
if you get down OBX way, let me know…editing from my front porch after a good swim the very best of all…
ERICA…
Gene Smith was manipulating in every way..setting up shots…double neg printing..the whole bit…but , still one of the greatest essayists of all time….
JAMES…
i know you are trying to find me..give another call…or i will call you tomorrow…
ERICA —
I found it. The audio isn’t as bad as I thought, but his English isn’t perfect, heavily accented. Still, think it’s doable.
This was from a talk he gave at the Hammer at UCLA taken by me.
Gonna have to chop the files up to make them email-able and I’m off to work now, so tomorrow…
ANDREW B…
you cannot miss in the Chelsea area…and when you are not shooting, you are in the midst of the best galleries…i am not in NYC now and go to Italy on thurs., so unfortunately i cannot host you…too bad….nice to see you in C’ville and hope we can connect at some point soon…
cheers, david
DAH..yes about Eugene Smith..I don’t know the ins and outs of all his manipulations, but in this instance it seems perfectly fine to me..
JARED..no rush!
James,
I vote for the first one (three men). Feels more balanced to me.
Cool look, by the way.
DAH
knew you were off on travels, sorry we will not cross paths in the city this time. It was nice to see you as well and I’ve been working towards the direction of the three single images you pulled out of my mish-mash collection of singles….aloing with some excellent advice by erica and Kelly LJ. I added you on skype, please check and if you see me add me in or share details with me or whatever it is called that would be cool…or perhaps I didn’t get the right name.
On another note, who should I email about your workshop schedule? I know there are dates listed on the link here, but you also mention (somewhere?) about shorter weekend workshops, which might fit my schedule more easily. I didn’t see them listed…maybe they are past, or not fully planned yet? In any case please point me to someone to talk with about it…
PETE
Skype is pretty cool, easy to use, and if you have a web cam, or a cam built into your computer, you can do video calls….you can also type and do conference calls….all free….I used it with another start-up business for international conference calls, all free. let me know if you need help setting it up or want to give it a try…
good light all,
a.
Skype can also be used with the iPhone and you can get your own local SykpeIn number meaning that people can call you all over the world only by dialing, say, a US number. What you have to do is get your iPhone unlocked by downloading software so that you can buy various local SIM cards in whatever country you happen to be in. Then, a person can call you by simply dialing your normal US AT&T iPhone number, the call is forwarded to your SkypeIN number which, in turn, is forwarded via SkypeOuT to your local cellphone number in whatever country you are in. This way you can talk for virtually nothing. Both SkypeIN ands SkypeOut carry a low subscription fee.
http://frugaltraveler.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/24/staying-in-touch-internationally-on-the-cheap/?scp=9&sq=matt%20gross%20iphone&st=cse
managed to sneak the print stravaganza (a collection of 10kg of photographs by around a hundred photographers) into the window of a pharmacy in Arles… I’m not myself present there, but some people from my collective, a few friends, and a camera crew are
DAH: You say you know very few tech things but to function these days as a photographer shooting digitally you need to know quite a bit so I am sure you do know quite a bit! When I first began scanning and shooting digitally I locked myself away for a few months in my studio and learned Photoshop and inkjet printing and Lightroom and Digital Asset Management and was referencing like 10 different books. It was a very steep learning curve. These days, we are not only having to find new outlets for our work, but we have had to learn new technology in just a few short years in a way never experienced before in the previous 165 years of photography. My MA program in London did not teach any of this! I was scrambling on my own to figure things out and could not afford to take the half dozen different classes one would need to take, say, at ICP to learn the various aspects of digital. Of course all the information is out there in books and on the web now, but it’s a heck of a lot of work to learn how to produce on one’s own the best possible scans on an Imacon or the best possible RAW conversions!
Davin Ellicson
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGGSTiDOjKU
Cash?.. anyone?
or.. Credit? ( aussie dollars )
Bob, Jim, Herve..:)
All photogs are NOT created equal…. sorry…..
why DAH or Allard been featured 40 times in NatGeo?
favoritism? or ? plain good?
So Burn should become another NatGeo?
im glad i missed the latest conversation…….
i would have been mad..:) ,..
but , not mad anyway………..
the “good stuff” comes always first my brothers…
so.. ( hint to ALL OF US ): Try Harder biatches…….
try harder……
All that…
now back to our regular programming…
i will play some “happy” tunes unless of course my little hater ,
brother Imants forgot to take his meds , Again………..!
:)))))))))))
Jim,
i dislike NatGeo more than anyone else here..
and u know this…right?
laughing…
all im saying is SIMPLE: the Good Stuff comes ,
or should come first……
hard work should and will be rewarded…….
hard & GREAT work.. i meant….. not just hard……
talent is not for everyone….
You are a Texan Jim… not a communist right?
therefore… All photogs are NOT created Equal..
they shouldnt have the same exposure either then, right?
laughing
do you watch Sports Jim…?
if u do have u noticed that Kobe Bryant ( lakers )…
or M.Jordan ( bulls ).. play most minutes in a game?????
have u ever thought why??
favoritism?????
in corporate america……..
r u serious babe,…??????
… and i hate to echo the master here.. but…
“Sour Grapes”… is the answer……
to all… lighten up … grow up…
do not be the “Sourpuss”.. not fun…
:(
….. so Jim.. if u submitted an essay and it didnt “fly”..
work harder or try another one….. dont despair……
…….. but to NOT submit so to give “others” a chance?
.. sounds so “Mother Teres-ian” to me….
and if u into “mother teresa” or “jesus”, or “stalin”.. or “Lenin”……..
this NOT only the wrong blog but also the wrong century and the “wrong country”……
this is the land of the “free” , Jim…….
laughing……..
( this country managed to be liberated from the queen of england” jim…
how many countries have they ever achieved that??????????
laughing hysterically………..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyStwRYLzlI
( for ALL )
Panos, I haven’t submitted an essay (I’m just a blue collar camera slinger, remember?) and I’m not a Christian, so there you go. ;)
“Sour Grapes”… is the answer……
——————-
Look who’s talking! BURN’s eternal angry teenager….. :-)))))
PS: Good is one time. After, we want…. Better. Only as good as your last photo/essay? No way, Jose…;-)
!!!
Was out shooting and sat for a moment, and my leica just fell down a concrete step and now the lens focus is hard to move, feels tight. Any at home quick repairs for this? Hopefully is just a lens problem and nothing happened to the camera, the lens feels the same off the camera as on.
Also, this may mean I need buy a used, fast 40 or 50 mm that fits the M7 immediately..anyone selling one in very good condition affordably or know of one in the nyc area?
Jim Powers
July 10, 2009 at 8:50 pm
Panos, I haven’t submitted an essay (I’m just a blue collar camera slinger, remember?) ..
Jim….. doesnt matter……
thats your past…… evolve…….
if you come up TOMORROW with a brilliant essay , u will be published…..
trust me… or better trust yourself………
Not that my opinion counts anyway… but .. i promise u……
come up with something “great” and u will be published…
and fuck Burn or NatGeo……
if your stuff is GREAT , YOU WILL BE PUBLISHED……..
have some faith… ANY FAITH… faith in you!!!!!!!!
:)))))))
Emcd.. you are “lucky”..in a way…..
get a voight……. from B&H…….
ita a “subway” distance from brooklyn….
and sorry to hear that..:(
Herve…… you are soooo lucky that you dont live in LA….
i would risk the DUI, drive at your door and smash my M8 in your
motherf****g face……….
:)))))
( angry teenager? me???????? )
And Herve……. you can ask Bob about this…
when i realized that im not selected for the final best 10…. last month i was thinking to hang my
camera on the wall…
and then.. and then DAH called and said:” hey malaka, are u here fore the long haul..? or what”……..
sooooooooooo there u have it……..
dust your shoulders of Herve…… noone likes me more than you…
laughing hysterically………
emcd, 40mm Nokton f1.4 only $600…
smile…..
PS: Good is one time. After, we want…. Better.
who r u referring to Herve?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bIEOZCcaXzE
this one for “my” Herve…
:)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqNPx1hbhfo
one more for Herve… ohhhhh & Jim…..
:)
Borat Imitating Dylan
ok…… ok……
10 photography tips here……..
remember: feel free to laugh…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzedefUXARE&feature=related
lesson no.2……
( feel free to “cry” )
who said im not promoting “photography”..???????
and as my indian friend Bodo… said:
S.P.A.M… means: Serve Pork At any given Moment…………
Hey DAH,
what do you mean by coolers and ice for slide film? (about traveling for two months in very hot Indian monsoon climat). You mean those special silver Kodak bags who protect a bit or…?
Thanks a lot for your answer,
K.
Erica: I dropped my 24mm Elmarit a while back. My heart dropped (possibly faster than the lens itself!) The focus ring was stuck tight… I mean locked!!! I sent it off to Leica in NJ and they in turn forwarded it to Germany. The repair in the end was $250, which I have to say I was pretty relieved about considering the price of a replacement! Not too bad! the biggest hassle was the time it took. I was without the lens for a couple of months or so. However, if you do go the repair route (and it sounds like you will have to) tell them you are a pro and you just can’t live without the lens and you need a loaner!!! And they should (at least they did for me) offer you a temp replacement. I also told them I was in the market for a 28mm to tempt them, so they gave me that as the replacement/teaser. You pay through the nose for Leica, but the customer service is good. You pay for it! Make the most of it!! Good luck. Let me know how things go.
you are soooo lucky that you dont live in LA….
—————————–
But if I lived in LA, I would have the privilege to know the Panos who is not acting like a DUI teenager on BURN… ;-)
Kristof…
Curious to know the places you are planning to visit in India…?
Origin of SPAM!!!
Erica,
I was working with two M6s when I was living with peasants and one got completely waterlogged one afternoon in a sudden downpour. My year was a once in a lifetime experience and I couldn’t afford not to have a back-up camera in such a remote and rugged area. What did I do? I went to Paris and bought a third M6 on the credit card! Got the broken M6 fixed for free under warranty at Leica, NJ four months later when I was home. Leicas can be quite delicate. It is very easy to knock the rangefinder focusing out of alignment and to do what you did toy your lense which I have done a number of times. I’ve sent my Leica equipment to NJ numerous times. It helps when they are still under warranty!
I wish my Leica M’s were as rugged as my old Nikon F’s. The rangefinders are very delicate and the shutter advance mechanisms have failed a couple of times. In contrast, here is a photo of my favorite Nikon F. Bought it around 1970, works great, never been serviced. But you can tell I babied it. ;)
http://www.39thframe.com/Nikon-F.jpg
Indeed to take great pictures one must be free. I mean the ego must be free. There must not be any existential knot of self-concern. You need to get beyond obsessively thinking about yourself, being self-conscious with the camera–there can be no barrier between you, your camera and the world. I try to do this even though all Romanians on the street stare yo down if you have a camera. In any other city, people see you as a tourist and hardly notice you. Here, I have women who could have won an Elite Modeling contract look at me as if I was the devil incarnate because I was taking a picture! I want to say to them “well, don’t have an issue with me, have an issue with your boyfriend who is somehow driving a 100,000 Euro BMW and looks as if he is in the Mafia!” But, then again, as I have been here this summer I have seen very, very few tourists. I guess its a combination of Romanians still being fearful from the Ceausescu era combined with few tourists. So, I really stand out I guess.
for the spamman …….. http://www.sbs.com.au/rockwiz/past/108/Martha-Wainwright-and-Adrian-Belew
Am trying to be calm about the lens..I played with it and now it moves again, jut tight down at 2.5 feet range..I think I’ll do a test of a roll of c41 in it today to see what’s what..but the idea of a loaner is good.
I’ve shot the hole project with this lens, it’s the only one I own, a 28, and not fast enough at 3.5, so I have been saying I really need to get a fast different lens, like a 40 or 50..the universe listens..
I’ll look into the 40mm Nokton f1.4, but sadly even that is pricey for me. Leica was offering me a great price on a new lens as an incredible gesture, but it still was too high..
Erica, happend to me too, the lens worked just fine, I mean sharp and in focus as before, but hard to move at close distance and therefore slow (me) when focussing, had it finally repaired (after 2 years), for € 400, had to be sent to Germany..
Have you looked into a Zeiss lens?
Erica, if you can’t get a loaner, you may consider using an inexpensive LTM (Leica Thread Mount) lens with an M-Mount adapter until your Leica lens is repaired. A lot of guys on the Rangefinder Forum like the look of Former Soviet Union (FSU) lenses in LTM, but the fastest you will get is 2 or 2.8…
I’ve never dealt with Fedka, but he is in NYC and is considered the best when it comes to FSU cameras & lenses. Here’s a link to his LTM lenses and M-mount adapter: http://www.fedka.com/catalog/default.php?cPath=24
Erica, I have a Voigtlander 35 1.7 Ultron I can send you if you like. I don’t use it often (prefer the look of my old 35 3.5 Summaron), so you can use it as long as you like.
It’s an aspherical lens, so renders photos with a modern look (sharp, contrasty), but if you are good with that, it’s yours.
hi david. tried calling you. give me a call anytime regarding burn +1 905 431 8626
Erica, whatever you, if you send it to NJ make sure to say you are a professional and need it back ASAP. I have done this every time and have gotten lenses back in less than two weeks this way. Also, there are other individual Leica repair people all over the US you could send it to.
Jim, that’s sweet and kind beyond all words, I think my heart just grew 3 sizes..if you are sure, that would be a very good temporary solution..I don’t know how to contact you off burn to discuss the possibly reality of this..you could post your contact here or email me at erica at ericamcdonaldphoto.com
Bravo Jim…
nice gesture….
thanks for helping Erica…
U DA MAN…
Erica, I sent you email.
No pictures, but that’s also photography, what you just did towards Erica. I think that too, makes us take better pictures. The giving…
DAH,
did you get my response to your review of my submission? I agree with you that it could be a couple shots tighter, I just don’t know what images to trim. I am very open to ideas.
BTW Jim, Very nice.
Very nice indeed…
Ah, camera gear is just stuff. Glad to help.
And now it’s time for…AKAKY’S BELIEVE IT OR NOT…if you want to…it’s a free country, after all…
Hawaii leads the nation is SPAM consumption, each man, woman, and child consuming at least six cans of the disgusting stuff yearly. This equals about 5 million pounds or 3 million kilograms, for those of you obsessed with decimals.
Akaky, if you throw a slice of uncooked spam against the wall, it sticks…for a really long time.
When I was a kid, I loved Spam! But I’ve been a vegetarian my adult life, so I stay away from ground and compacted animal parts. ;)
Akaky,
Hawaii..?
i thought that everyone is a surfer over there…..
smoking pot and eating salads every day…
hmmm obviously i was wrong..:)
NY Times highlights Arles:
http://themoment.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/10/rencontre-darles-a-summer-in-provence/
I just discovered this site and want to thank you for not only supporting new and unheard of photographers, but providing so much inspiration to get out and shoot!
Even the best of us men are attracted to certain features of women:
http://www.PDNPulse.com/2009/07/obama-steals-a-glance-in-reuters-photograph.html
God! what a cover! The solo at 2:45 is pretty damn good!
Dellicson…:)
keep the spirits up…
keep on playing music here please…
my late night show starts at 8pm…
till then please keep playing….
good light y’all from skidrow downtown LA..:)
Panos, when you’ve got the munchies everything is fair game, even spam, I guess.
As for body types, there always this: http://www.flickr.com/photos/akaky/3371410544/sizes/l/
I wonder what kind of wine you would serve in a house where the decor was early American spam?
We’ve been supplying inspiration here? When the hell did that happen?
Akaky..:)
nicely done…
:)))))))
Panos: yes, sorry about the youtube posts on a photo site, but there is so much vintage stuff available now! Amazing! Raw as can be:
OK David… Let me know when you want to do this SKYPE thing. I am all set up. Show me the dome man!
The latest essay hits pretty close to the bone to me, I was thinking about undertaking a similar themed project last year but got talked out of it by a very good friend.
The idea came to me whilst sitting with my partner in a food-court in the local mall. We were having a feed and I told her how I thought “youth” seems to be so short for young girls now.
Maybe I sounded like an old curmudgeon but I felt sad seeing very young girls (before they had even reached their teens) feeling like they had to dress like they were in the latest MTV video. This feeling was nothing about appropriateness or me being on a righteous moral crusade, it was simply about the shortness of youth in modern times.
Youth seems so dreadfully short these days. Here in NZ we even had one large “reputable family company” trying to sell mock padded bras for 8-10 year old so they could feel “grown up” like their sisters etc. Thankfully there was such a huge consumer stink about it that they pulled the product.
I got talked out of it precisely because I am a 46 year old male and all the implications that could be perceived about this type of project. And also how intentions could quite easily be misconstrued. Even now I have to be careful shooting my current youth project, because it is often at skateparks etc with no parents around…
Yet the feeling has still remained that it is an important story, and maybe it would be more appropriately handled by a female photographer… Yet the idea still keeps going round and round in the back of my head.
Here’s a song that I love and sort of suits. I wish I had thought of the words/lyrics “Like a bargain basement Barbie Doll”…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RLJwCT7BDA
If I don’t reply to any comments it’s just that my comments tend to get spammed and I‘ve asked Patricia to post this for me.
Thanks everyone…
DIANA…
welcome…we hope you will become a productive part of our discussions….and please show us your work whenever you feel it appropriate…
BRIAN..
let’s try to edit together next week by Skype…make sense to you??? you do not need much of an edit…just taking out a couple of pictures i think will do it…in any case, all with your approval of course…
cheers, david
LIFE is beautiful !!!
VIVA BURN!!!
P.S There is hope…just we have to listen to our hearts …
MR.HARVEY is traveling again … GOOD ENERGY everyone !!!
I am still on the air…
LOVE FOR EVER …COME ON …LOVEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE
going Hawaii …any BURNIANS over there????????
oups… Mr.Harvey?
You are everywhere!!!
Again, for mrs K.Lee…
no vanity in your work..
no pretense…
no bullshit…
only amazing people can deliver amazing photography…
you are as big as BOB DYLAN, as CURT KOBAIN, as DAH, as JOHN LENNON,
as BUDDHA…
you are my favorite photographer by far…
im your biggest fan…
i feel so good to admit it…
The best thing ever happened to me around my Burn Experience is,
discovering your photography…
Again… one big , huge thanks to DAH…
ps:i wouldnt mind to see you published here weekly.. if thats possible…
big hug, respect
DAH – that would be great. You have my email, let me know.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DEtA5fhk4k
the ghost…
this one is dedicated to all my hommies in Skidrow..
this one goes to anyone that had to sleep in their car due to homelessness,…
“…Man walks along the railroad tracks
He’s goin’ someplace, and there’s no turnin’ back
The highway patrol chopper comin’ up over the ridge
Man sleeps by a campfire under the bridge
The shelter line stretchin’ around the corner
Welcome to the New World Order
Families sleepin’ in their cars out in the Southwest
No job, no home, no peace, no rest
No rest!
The highway is alive tonight
Nobody’s foolin’ nobody as to where it goes
I’m sitting down here in the campfire light
Searchin’ for the ghost of Tom Joad
He pulls his prayer book out of his sleepin’ bag
The Preacher lights up a butt and takes a drag
He’s waitin’ for the time when the last shall be first and the first shall be last
In a cardboard box ‘neath the underpass
With a one way ticket to the promised land
With a hole in your belly and a gun in your hand
Sleepin’ on a pillow of solid rock
Bathin’ in the city’s aquaduct
The highway is alive tonight
Nobody’s foolin’ nobody as to where it goes
I’m sittin’ down here in the campfire light
Waiting on the ghost of Tom Joad
Now Tom said, “Ma, wherever you seen a cop beatin’ a guy
Wherever a hungry newborn baby cries
Wherever there’s a fight against the blood and hatred in the air
Look for me Ma, I’ll be there
Wherever somebody’s strugglin’ for a place to stand
For a decent job or a helpin’ hand
Wherever somebody’s strugglin’ to be free
Look in their eyes, Ma, you’ll see me”
You’ll see me (x8)
The highway is alive tonight
Nobody’s foolin’ nobody as to where it goes
I’m sittin’ down here in the campfire light
With the ghost of Tom Joad…”
“… you know you are “rich” when you find the RICH stealing from you…”
Nietzsche
“….Now you dont talk so loud
Now you dont seem so proud
About having to be scrounging for your next meal.
How does it feel
How does it feel
To be without a home
Like a complete unknown
Like a rolling stone? ….”
12:07 in N.Y..
midnight….
one more Late Late Show begins……..
get your MEDS, open a cheap wine, open your heart…
and touch the moon…….
big hug y’all.. thanks for tuning in………..
our tonights program is dedicated to all of you out there that
cant pay the rent…to all my borderline homeless amigos…
when the cops wont let u sleep in your own car…
when u had to beg a “friend” with the 10 bedroom house and he refused..
when u had to work all day and u got peanuts for return..
when u cant afford to buy a train ticket to see your own mother…
then u know what i mean..
to all of you..
welcome to my show..
this ones for u…
EVEN GEORGE BUSH has a soul…
Another exciting Saturday evening in deep East Texas ;)
Heat index, about 110 F!
http://www.39thframe.com/mooooo.jpg
Just gotta post a cow photo occasionally.
Jim good to see you in good mood :) Have a nice Saturday.
Heard this yesterday morning on NPR http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=106483154
An interesting project with interesting results. Enjoy
ERICA…JIM
it is so nice to see the comments working for us instead of against us…good on both of you….
ERICA…
i am waiting for your essay material…i really do think it is about time to publish you…many many thanks for being so so helpful with your references and transcriptions…maybe we should build a library section here to keep all of this in one place…
JIM…
your cow picture certainly reminds me of mid-America summer..county fair?? …now, if i may be so bold, i think this picture could have been just a bit better IF you had really taken advantage of those long shadows (more shadow, less roof) and just taken it a split second before or after to eliminate the hand in front of the face of the guy in the plaid shirt…or, anticipated that the guy in the plaid shirt would soon make a move back in your direction……by stepping just a bit to the left and aiming the camera a bit down and moving one step forward in an act of passive aggression, just as the guy in the plaid shirt moved back towards you, you would still keep the background cows and atmosphere and put us just “in there” more…. you would have done those FFA kids the justice they deserve…as you well know they work all year long on making their pigs, sheep, cattle cows etc just perfect for the final showing at the county fair….
as i write i am really wondering why oh why do i not have you shooting an essay on just exactly the world in which you live…take the fourth of july kid painted face and this cow picture and use them as a base for launching on to something truly interesting and of value…you are there anyway…a natural….no no no, you do not have to be arty….just straightforward as you are anyway…but with just a wee bit of finesse on the visuals, not by much and not trying too hard…….just Jim….
no radical philosophical change required at all…
where you live and what is represented by your community is what is left of mid-America….salt of the earth folks…down home rhubarb pie stuff…i am sure you know everybody and could go anywhere and do anything…access is not an issue i am sure….your no nonsense approach to a no-nonsense culture could really make a very nice essay indeed…if you really took this seriously i promise you we could edit this and make a killer essay for the end of august…a great Labor Day end of summer essay….10 pictures….what say you??
this would put a nice frame around the work you have been doing your whole career…add special meaning to all that you have been doing….come up with a provocative title that takes nothing away from the subject or from you…i will think on it too…a good title helps one to focus…
if you are up for it, i promise you we could make it great….now, here i am getting excited by this and wonder why i did not think of this before….so so obvious after all… ….i can see greatness all over it…..i hope you will think it over….i am being quite serious….
cheers, david
David, I like the “step forward in an act of passive aggression.” It’s a very good observation of what I need to do with my photography moving forward.
One of the problems with years as a newspaper shooter is a tendency to become the “neutral observer.” Stay out of image. Invisible photographer. And you see through that accurately. Along with watching more carefully the difference moving just a little can make in the photo, I’m trying to force myself into the photo physically, weaning myself from the 24-70 zoom and using a 20mm on the 5D, and carrying my Leica with a 15mm on it. Make myself be a part of what is happening rather than just an observer.
You nailed the critique. I appreciate it. Don’t know about the essay. Have to think about that.
JIM…
yes, i think using “primes” is so helpful…one less thing to think about and you can use your legs to move forward or backward easier than trying to ratchet the lens…also, just less physical stuff between you and the subject…most of the zoom lenses just scare the hell out of people because of their size…..so obtrusive……and i find the act of moving your body rather than zooming the lens makes you feel more a part of the whole scene as well….you will flow and feel it more and consequently make pictures which will reflect this neutral but symbiotic involvement……..you can still be the “observer” which i think is just fine…just a closer observer….being a “part of it” does not have to mean that you alter the situation at all or are not still an observer….it is just a little subtle dance….done right and people either will not notice you or appreciate the fact that you care enough to be a part of their lives, even if only for a few minutes or a few seconds….bring pictures back to them the next day and now you are going home with them for lunch etc etc etc…
your essay will be brilliant….
cheers, david
David, don’t forget the umbrella for your camera when coming over to Tuscany, we’ve been having pretty crazy weather up until now this Summer (if you can call it Summer that is)!
EVA…
rain?? really?? i just do not recall it ever raining when i was in Tuscany in the summer..or, at least not for long…always seems too too dry…anyway, will i see you???
David, then you’ll be surprised how green Tuscany can look like even in July!
If you drop by in Siena before the 18th (leaving for Greece then), coffee, tea, wine.. whatever.. is on me, drop me a line :)
Ehm, with a mail address I guess it’s easier.. and if you let me know where and when you arrive perhaps we can work out a pick up at the airport.. emk at slowemotion.it
DAH
Will you be available this afternoon for a SKYPE conversation? After 2 sometime?
Eva…:)
going greece? touring the islands?
right on
PETE…
no Skype today….but, tomorrow morning early just fine…
for Bob ( not BobBlack )…the other bob…
what happened? woke up in the wrong side of the bed ?.. again?
why dont u offer something better…mr. UFOman..:)
come out of your bed and play…
raise the bar…
Ross, that is a superb ans great subject, how teenagers are pressured to not be young, and to pretty much compete into the realm of adulthood (where so many are just DOA!), especially consuming. Yet, both the pretense and realization of that is often betrayed by unchecked and spontaneous behaviour that does belong uniquely to the youth, and photography is the perfect mefium to seize these instants.
I would hate another “I lived with them for onr year, following….” stance or with the notion that youth is a deep existentialist crisis (too much crap like that in the last decades) , but a wanderer, like a Winogrand, or an Erwitt even Parr, with the guts to get closer, but never quite inside, that would be something….
Jim, David, you must know that the cow(boy) culture is totally around the world, in places one wouldn’t think at first.
I remember in Vietnam, over 15 years ago, guys riding horses, wearing big stetsons, and the boots to go with it. On my last day, this gentleman asking me if I can send county and western CDs from the US to him (and still today, Israelis won’t have Wagner played in Israel…)
As well, buffalo markets are plentiful in the thai provinces, and again, these hats, these boots, and the checkered shirts. Even the facial expressions are uncannily cowboy-farmland-universal (that “trust no one but yourself”, let’s see the money, roughened look). Never miss one, if I can.
In Pattaya (Thailand), where people think there is only sex on sale, every year, there is a huge cowboy fair, with horses, cows, buffalo pageants and contests, markets as well. There again, stetsons rule, and the sturdy stance again, that seems, with a mere glance, to quietly evaluate your mettle, judgement for which there is no recourse anymore, in their world.
There’s an idea again.
@dellicson: a very strange summary of arles considering that it doesn’t show any images of the people chosen by nan goldin…
Motherfuckers! You talk mid-america farmland, and you make miss Thailand!!! What a screwed-up mind! :-))))
PS: oh, yes, I know Barenboim finally was able to play Wagner in Israel, probably the only one who can, and after much palaver (I got this one in my french-english dictionary, Jim!).
(and still today, Israelis won’t have Wagner played in Israel…)
didnt know that… but thats actually a good thing…( only time that i agree with the censors..)
Wagner was a fake…
:))))
…and Joni breaks the 4000 comment barrier…:)
Wagner was a fake…
—————
Wagner was a genius, who influenced theater and music in its whole, in a way you seem to have no idea, Panos.
Just like Celine, who idiotically but forcefully confused his rabid individulaism with choosing a side, the wrong one, influenced the freest generation of writers ever, that of the beats, and Bukowsky/Ginsberg….
Contradiction, conflict, that’s what makes life interesting… I am sure you know! :-))))
sorry Herve…
Wagner was and will always be a FAKE…
U GOTTA READ stories from people that really met him in person…
like this book:
Nietzsche contra Wagner
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Nietzsche contra Wagner
Publication date 1895
Nietzsche contra Wagner is a critical essay by Friedrich Nietzsche, written in his last year of lucidity (1888-1889). It was not published until 1895. In it Nietzsche describes why he parted ways with his one-time idol and friend, Richard Wagner. Nietzsche attacks Wagner’s views in this short work, expressing disappointment and frustration in Wagner’s life choices (such as his conversion to Christianity, perceived as a sign of weakness). Nietzsche evaluates Wagner’s philosophy on tonality, music and art; he admires Wagner’s power to emote and express himself, but largely disdains what Nietzsche calls his religious biases.
The work is significant for a number of reasons. It illustrates Nietzsche’s evolution from a younger philosopher. It also gives the lie to those that would label Nietzsche as anti-Semitic, as is often alleged, and instead makes clear Nietzche’s opposition to such ideas: “[Wagner] had condescended step by step to everything I despise — even to anti-Semitism.”
so obviously you dont know what u r saying Herve…:)
Wagner was an anti-Semitic, religious jesus freak…
kinda like this crazy director that directed the most
horrible propaganda movie of all times , the “passion of the christ”…
u know what i mean… the guy that was driving drunk in malibu…
oh whats his name… i forget..
:)
modern Wagner interview below:
There is nothing in you excerpt where Nietzsche speaks negatively of Wagner as a composer.
You are caught in another one of your adoloscent moralistic tit for tat, where today, if a man has flaws, well, then he has no genius, no influence on anything, a totally failed artist, and “here’s what I found on wikipedia which I did not read well” (the very proof you had no idea before you googled it, ahah!) , but never mind….. the power of the internet: in one minute, Panos is right against Liszt, Dvorak, Bruckner, Mahler, Debussy, Schoenberg, etc…..
Ah, to be young again, and be right all the time!
PS: we do agree that Wagner is not a chinese, ok? :-))))))))))))))))
Panos, yes, touring Greece.. I’ve left a comment under your essay the other day, do you know the book by chance?
From cows to Thailand to Wagner, in as many sips of coffee….. Isn’t this a great site or what!?!? :-)
‘Bright Shiny Morning’ by James Frey
hmmm… i had no idea about this book…
i think i know what u mean..( the history of modern LA )
thank u..
stay tuned… im doing a new story about downtown LA..as we speak..
perfect video clip for WAGNER’S ” THE RIDE OF VALKYRIES”..
PERFECT USE… Attack music… enjoy and kill…
quiz: whats the movie?????
(the very proof you had no idea before you googled it, ahah!) , but never mind…..
Herve,
i have read the book since i was 18 years old..
read it in two different translations…
“NIETZSCHE CONTRA WAGNER”…
I SUGGEST you should read it too… try a french translation so you can understand it…
malaka…
Wagner used Nietzsche ..
in the book “N” explains how and why….
on the other side ignorant Wagner’s supporters ( like you ),
accused “N” being bitter because of a secret lust for Wagner’s wife…
I can tell you more that u wont find in any wikipidia my darling..
just ask
:)
PS: we do agree that Wagner is not a chinese, ok? :-))))))))))))))))
ok… you got me there..:)
… and Herve, before u strike back telling me that eventually Nietzsche lost his mind, i’ll tell u why:
because of people like u…:))))))))))
ohhh about Debussy…
here is something i admit i didnt know:
“In his visits to Bayreuth in 1888-9, Debussy was exposed to Wagnerian opera, which had a lasting impact on his work. Richard Wagner had died in 1883 and the cult of Wagnerism was still in full swing. Debussy, like many young musicians of the time, responded positively to Wagner’s sensuousness, mastery of form, and striking harmonies, but ultimately Wagner’s extroverted emotionalism was not to be Debussy’s way either”
JIM POWERS..:)
hope u dont mind …i just had to play with your photo…
only two things..
1) crop
2) BURNed the sky…
http://picasaweb.google.com/innerspacecowpanos/DropBox?authkey=Gv1sRgCNnWypCqzqumOQ&pli=1&gsessionid=feegsfbXAh2mjUAfPjGq7g#5357674011855852290
Two with new websites:
Sobol has redesigned his:
http://www.auesobol.dk/
and Ziyah Gafic has come out with one finally: http://ziyahgafic.ba
http://www.39thframe.com/mooooo.jpg
that was the original..
:)
again, just playing
JKaranka: Well, yes, but I just thought it was interesting that the NYT highlighted the festival. They don’t do that with Perpignan but then Arles is the Art World.
Bucharest summer 2009: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXtxydDaHwI
Davin,
what brought u to romania, in the first place?
Herve;
Thanks for your kind words. I’m still completely involved with my new youth project, and can’t see me getting that finished for 12-18 months because I have to fit it around my magazine work.
But I do feel that the other one will be worth pursuing at some stage. However I do think that it would be a considerable minefield for a male photographer to undetake, so it needs a lot of thought and planning.
Cheers
WIM WENDERS’s movie for Leica…
Garry Winogrand
in VENICE BEACH…
Anthony Suau’s work in the early 1990s:
http://pa.photoshelter.com/c/anthonysuau/gallery/Romania-1990-1992/G0000wLecgSp1No4/P0000ZwojKn8xZps
and from WPP in April:
Mark Twain had a better mustache than Nietzsche…now that I think of it, so did Kurt Vonnegut
AKAKY…
problem is , Stalin might have had the best of all
Jim, if you are considering the offer made by David, please take a look at work by Barney Cowheard. He is one of my favorites. Bill Strode did a book about his work in the 70’s and it is priceless.
I shoot exclusively Nikon right now, but the M8 Leica… I’ve been looking at that camera for almost 9 months now. I would love to own one – a true digital range finder, the only in existence I believe. But I would like to compare it to a Nikon or Canon dSLR first. I haven’t had good experience with CCD’s and the Leica using one in the M8. Is it of higher quality that those used in last year’s Nikons before they switched to CMOS?
Does anyone here have one? What do you think? I’d love it for the sleekness and quietness of a range finder. And since it’s a Leica, I know it’d be a piece of art and will perform exceptionally.
Not much on the web, but I can get the book used so I’ll order it. Sounds interesting.
As for the essay, I’ll leave those to the younger folks. But, David, I really, really appreciate the offer. And the advice on the photo. :)
Jim, you are a generous man. I so appreciate our kind of offer of the lens to Erica.
Regarding leaving the essays to the “younger folks,” I’ve got about twelve years on you, my friend, and am still busting my butt on essays. There’s nothing like tackling something new to keep the grey cells buzzing. Like David, I think you’re in the perfect poosition to give us an inside view into life in middle America. Hope you’ll go for it…
Patricia
Got to leaarn to reread before I hit “submit!”
Let’s try that again: I so appreciate your kind offer of the lens to Erica.
P
Patricia,
you are the youngest Burn photog..
Definitely younger than me..
not kidding…
thank you!
Patricia: “Young photographer” to me is a term that mean for how long someone is dealing with serious photography not how old a person is.jonas Bendiksen, for exemple is born 1977, but cannot of course be called a young photographer, but someone who is even 70 and more but started his “real commitment” recently, is!
Very proud to share that one of my photographs was chosen as the National Geographic Photo of the Day on July 03, 2009.
Here is the LINK
Sorry if it sounds like I’m beating my own drum, but I am so happy that I couldn’t resist sharing my happiness here. :)
Bodo…
congratulations…….
Proud of you…………
keep it up…
bravoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
…. thats an achievement… u r not beating your own drum………..
you r just sharing… thats we are here… to share……
im opening a wine for u!!!!
Bodo
Very nice pic. congratulations ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M34iZH4-qkI&feature=channel
“buena”
Thank you Panos! Unhappy that I couldn’t share that wine! One day when I can go to your place, may be we will…
Thank you Marcin! :)
There’s a little history behind this photo. This photograph (in colour) was submitted by me as a single image in last year’s edition of EPF and it was one of the two images of mine which were selected by DAH and it was in his site for some time. Subsequently, I submitted the photograph (in b&w) for the NatGeo World Photography Contest, 2008 and luckily it won the first prize in ‘places’ category in the English-language of the said contest. Now, I find that it was chosen as the Photo of the Day on July 03, 2009.
Panos
Leica have always very nice movies. Leica is my camera, I am sure we have the same feelings about this camera :) photographer have always “THE camera” but after euro is so expesive (you know crisis) leica m8.2 cost in Poland : 23 719,- zł (!!!) the same as 1Ds mark III
It’s mean I have to pay over 10 000 zl for nothing, completely nothing… air… (for 10 000 I will have d700 with lens or d5 mark II)
With all my love to Leica, M8 is and will be not worth this money. ever.
So… Leica can produce any movie and I will not treat this Jewelry as a real cemera.
But of course I can take M8.2 as a gift and I will talk about leica with all superlatives…
:)
peace for all photographers with jawelry
M8 is and will be not worth this money. ever.
i agree marcin, i agree..
but who gives a fuck……….
i would stay homeless one more year if i have to for another M…….
:)))))))
Bodoooooooooooo!!!!!!!! my man…
you are lucky you are not sharing this cheap california wine…
its more like vinegar…( but thats all i can afford…)
keep it up brother…….
big hug
Panos
Leica should give you one for some advertisement. You will be a legend soon :)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SK7Ai9dWrRQ&feature=related
laughing… i dont think time is on my side marcin…
not the way i lead my life…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4w9EksAo5hY&feature=related
for marcin…
(america the land of mickey mouse)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OLA6AiZlVw
Tom Waits…for all
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DEtA5fhk4k
one more re-run if i may…
that goes to all those families that i met, living in the GRAND INN roach motel..
in Fullerton, LA.. $210 weekly rate…with free porn on the channel 3…
that was my “home” also for almost a year……….
Katiecakes
aka Kathie
aka Streetfighter
aka K. Fonseca
smidgens of my fading memory of your talk of pearly moonlight
is keeping me company this long night…
JIM….
Patricia is right….you should go for it…”emerging” applies to anyone who is growing…and my feeling is that you are growing and/or want to grow…i do not think you would spend so much time here if you were not sincerely interested in what is going on in our craft…you may not agree with all of the movements, styles, etc etc…but you are in fact keeping up with all that moves forward…
all i am suggesting is that you do what you do anyway…i do not want you to become someone different from who you are…i just see you in a unique position of being able to capture life around you in the most interesting way … by selective editing and presentation , you will move yourself up a notch and create a whole body of work that will allow you, yes you, to make a special mark…you photographing Jim’s world is no different than what Patricia is doing or what Panos is doing…and both of those photographers will have books soon which will reflect who they are and what they see everyday…there is value to this Jim…
will it change the world?? of course not…will it sensitize some to care just a bit more about a perhaps disappearing culture?? maybe….since you have lived a life in photography , why not allow what you have done and how you feel about the world to come to full blossom…..your own little tree….to be viewed with pride….you may see yourself as an unlikely candidate for this kind of treatment of your work…but, that is the true beauty of it , the AUTHENTICITY of it…as i said, i am only sorry that i did not think of this before…it is just so obvious and natural and right….
stare fear right in the face….
you may contact me by private e-mail if you wish…i am ready to build this fire….
cheers, david
DAVID
Are you free to SKYPE?
Mornin’
(ERICA…
i am waiting for your essay material…i really do think it is about time to publish you…)
DAH..
I’m sitting on about 30 rolls of tri x that were shot post LOOK3 (after talking with you, Gene R, Paul Fusco, etc) in what has felt like the most *blessed* time shooting ever. I’m waiting for my developer to come home from China so I can see what is there before I send the essay out into the world..ideally I’d like to finish it first, October..but definitely I need to see these 30 rolls, that could be a lot of new keepers..I don’t mean to hold things up for the sake of it, but I do need the work to reflect what I see and feel.
(many many thanks for being so so helpful with your references and transcriptions…maybe we should build a library section here to keep all of this in one place…)
You are most welcome..because i’ve been on such a roll lately I was going out of my mind yesterday without a lens (I don’t think I’ve ever had such a bad weekend mood wise) and I turned to my library to keep myself sane. I realized that i had never listened to the audio that came with the reprint of Susan Meiselas’ Carnival Strippers. There is a radio interview with her from 1977 that, as far as I can tell, isn’t transcribed anywhere on the net (i’ve written the station to be sure)..so am excited to add that to scribbling when I get the time. I think a library section here would be great..that would motivate me (and you and whoever else) to also compile a must read book list..
scribbling got a plug here: http://www.pixelpress.org/afterphotography/?p=776
ERICA…
i am not rushing you at all…quite the contrary…i just want to be sure you know that i am ready when you are ready….
the lines from Zen and the Art of Archery seems to be right on … i did not know of this book, but will see where i can purchase…all of the Zen books i think certainly apply to how i feel about photography more than any other single factor…i think you may know that my room mate in college was a Japanese man from whom i learned so so much…certainly the art of not making anyone “lose face”, the concept of being “one” with the subject etc etc have served me well….bonsai trees, koi ponds, haiku, etc are manifestations of this oneness so eloquently described in Zen and the Art of Archery….the Western “i win, you lose” was probably necessary for the expansion of Europe and beyond, but does not serve us well as artists…thanks for your link…
cheers, david
“..it is necessary for the (photographer) to become, in spite of himself, an unmoved center.” or in your case DAH, and unmoved, but dancing, center.. :)
Andrew S is on his way over to talk possible workshops..
The fall of the Iron Curtain and the end of the Cold War has revealed many a terrible story of Communist oppression, but there are few stories of that awful period in world history as ultimately pathetic as that of Vasili Nikodemonovich Karandaschov. That Karandaschov was guilty of horrific crimes against humanity there can be no doubt; no one who held high position in the Stalinist hierarchy can claim clean hands, except in the groves of Western academe, but Karandaschov’s story shows how power can corrupt even the most moral and well-meaning of people.
Karandaschov’s story first came to light in 1956, after Nikita Khrushchev’s now famous “secret” speech to the XXth Party Congress, in which he denounced Josef Stalin and his cult of personality. Khrushchev, as part of the de-Stalinization of the Soviet Union, ordered the removal of Stalin’s body from the Lenin Mausoleum on Red Square, where the late dictator had been sharing space with Lenin, the founder of the Soviet State, and a wide variety of Polish hams and East German bratwurst not otherwise available to non-Party members. As soldiers moved Stalin’s body from the display case, the mustache fell from the dead dictator’s face and immediately ran from the room, bursting past the cordon of startled MGB guards. The mustache made its way to the British Embassy, where members of the Embassy staff positively identified it as V. N. Karandaschov, a long-time part of Stalin, from pictures in the embassy files. Karandaschov immediately asked for political asylum in Great Britain.
The British government tried to keep the defection a secret, but sources in Great Britain, including, quite possibly, the Soviet agent Kim Philby, tipped the Soviets of Karandaschov’s presence in the Embassy. The Soviets, fearful of what might prove an intelligence bonanza for the West, immediately demanded Karandaschov’s return to the Soviet authorities so they could prosecute him for what the Moscow town procurator called financial irregularities. Karandaschov, for his part, denied any involvement in criminal activity of any kind, saying that he was simply a low level functionary in Stalin’s government.
There is no doubt that Vasili Karandaschov and Josef Stalin were old and dear friends, Mr. Karandaschov being closer to Stalin than almost anyone else in his coterie. Karandaschov is visible in the first known picture of Stalin, the Tsarist police’s 1905 mug shot of the young Georgian revolutionary, and he is visible in photographs taken at Stalin’s funeral. He was the only known member of Stalin’s inner circle to survive from the beginning of the great dictator’s rule to the end, and he was probably the only member of that circle allowed to call Stalin Koba, his revolutionary nickname, well into the 1950’s. Many Russian exiles have speculated through the years that Karandaschov might have been a relative of Stalin’s; exiles often pointed out that Karandaschov bore a striking resemblance to Stalin’s mother’s mustache; no one, however, has ever proved that such a relationship existed.
Karandaschov was a jack of all political trades for Stalin, going to the nearest convenience store to buy the dictator’s cigarettes and lottery tickets, picking up Stalin’s kids at school and driving them home when the Soviet Leader was too busy shooting people to get them himself, and calling up anonymous Party members in the middle of the night and saying loathsome things about their mother’s borscht. No is certain why Stalin tolerated such behavior; he had other Bolshevik apparatchiks cut down for lesser acts of lese-majeste; but he kept Karandaschov around despite the mustache’s clear unsuitability for high political office—political reliability always mattered more to Stalin than competence, at least until the disasters of the Great Patriotic War compelled him to appoint people who knew what they were doing to high office. It may be that Stalin had no doubts about Karandaschov’s doglike loyalty to him, despite the animus felt towards the old Georgian mustache by such high ranking apparatchiks as Lavrenti Beria, the head of the secret police, and foreign minister Vyacheslav Molotov. This loyalty to Karandaschov held firm even after a secret police investigation found that Karandaschov diverted funding meant for the construction of the Moscow subway in order to build an extravagant dacha for himself outside Moscow, a dacha with the largest collection of Count Basie records anywhere in the Soviet Union. The DGSE, the French intelligence service has in its possession some of the working documents of that investigation, passed to them by a high level defector in place in the 1960’s, including what would ordinarily have been a career ending film of Karandaschov doing the Lindy Hop at his dacha with a Outer Mongolian actress young enough to be his grand-daughter. Despite this, Stalin kept the mustache and Karandaschov hung on to Stalin with ever increasing devotion.
Karandaschov’s fall came, as it did with so many members of the Stalinist Old Guard, with Stalin’s death in 1953. Without the great man to serve, monsters like Kaganovich, Molotov, Beria, and Karandaschov had no focus for their slavish mentalities and Khrushchev easily shoved them aside in his drive for supreme power. Khrushchev forced Karandaschov out of all his positions and even confiscated his Count Basie records, sending them to Novosibirsk, where with some imagination and a good agent they became the headliners at the newly built Trump Siberia Hotel and Casino. Without Stalin to protect him, Karandaschov lost nearly everything, eking out a miserable existence sweeping the floor at the Lenin-Stalin Mausoleum and providing the occasional hair for the mausoleum’s professional staff when Lenin’s beard started to look especially scruffy. Khrushchev’s plan to remove Stalin’s body and bury it was simply the last straw for Karandaschov, the final humiliation in a long line of humiliations. Karandaschov had had enough, and he fled into the night.
Karandaschov spent most of that night at the British Embassy justifying his decision to defect to a man he believed to be the MI-6 station chief, but who was in reality a vacationing Franciscan from Liverpool, who spoke neither Russian nor Georgian, but who had spent a lifetime listening to confessions and so knew how to nod sagely and occasionally emit small grunts that could mean I see, go on, is that so, or you are standing on my waffles, you clumsy oaf. Karandaschov poured out all of his resentments at the way the world had changed since his beloved Josef Vissarionovich passed away, his statement being secretly recorded by an obscure Embassy official named George Martin, who later went on to become the Beatles’ producer; in fact, if you play “Back in the USSR” backwards, you can hear parts of Karandaschov’s extraordinary confession, especially the parts about how much he loved his collection of Count Basie records and, in what proved a revelation of historic proportions, acknowledged that Stalin was a secret admirer of Artie Shaw’s, although he didn’t really like Shaw’s rendition of “Begin the Beguine;” it was too bourgeois, Stalin thought.
Karandaschov denied any part in Stalin’s crimes, claiming that he too was one of the great dictator’s victims and that the only way he could hide from Stalin was to stay right under Stalin’s nose and hope that nobody, especially Stalin, noticed that he was there. There is some evidence for this interpretation; there is archival film footage of Stalin absentmindedly stroking his mustache at the Yalta Conference, but many historians say that it is simply not possible to prove Karandaschov’s protestations of innocence from such thin evidence, and that even in the lack of direct evidence there is simply no way Karandaschov could have survived for all those years under Stalin’s nose without having some knowledge of what kind of man he was and the myriad crimes he committed.
In any case, the Eden government did not grant Karandaschov the political asylum he wanted so badly. The Soviet authorities produced photographs of Stalin and Karandaschov in uniform together in World War II and claimed that the agreement that repatriated Soviet POWs’ to the Rodina after the war applied to Karandaschov as well. The grounds were legally flimsy at best, but the Eden government, broken by the Suez disaster, acceded to the Soviet demand. By the time the Foreign Office told the Embassy to hand Karandaschov over to the Soviets, the would be defector was gone. The old Georgian revolutionary, who had survived all the political twists and turns of Stalin’s rule, suspected the British would betray him, and he vanished, leaving, to paraphrase Shakespeare, not a wracked behind for the KGB to kick.
No one knew where the old mustache had gone to; the last positive sighting of him was in Paris in 1965, where he appeared as a merkin in a revue at Les Folies Bergere. The surreptitious photograph of him taken there reveals a mustache wearied by life and age, and simply going through the motions along with the rest of the merkins. He vanished again the day the photograph appeared in Paris-Match, disappearing completely this time. He may still be alive; Karandaschov ate yogurt constantly and he came from long lived stock—both his parents lived well into their nineties; but the actuarial tables suggest that he has already long past the normal life expectancy for mustaches, most of which do not survive more than an hour or so after the alarm clock goes off. How he died or when or where he died is not known; no one knows whether the KGB finally caught up with him or whether he simply went to sleep one day and never woke up again will always be a mystery. The Soviet archives do not yield any information on the subject, but who can tell if there are not archives within archives, archives that hide the darkest and most shameful secrets of all? Until these archives are open, there is no way to know the true fate of the Georgian shepherd boy who became Stalin’s mustache.
:)))))
Akaky:
Here is a picture of the birth of Karandashov’s son…
http://funnyphotographs.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/mustache.jpg
I saw “Mario” again this week-end…:
http://www.pbase.com/uc/image/114905386
A great column on BOOK SELF PUBLISHING on The Digital Journalist….
http://www.digitaljournalist.org/issue0907/resetting-book-publishing.html
The Obama Time capsule is printed by BLURB.
J.Vink……….:))))
laughing hysterically….
that mustache is way better groomed than Stalin’s and Nietzsche’s combined..
u made my day…
:)
J. Vink – I spit my lunch everywhere laughing so hard. Your fault. Thanks!
Jim, it’s such an honor to get such a request, I think you should stop thinking and get cracking. I would only hope that David would take such interest in helping me or many of the other in this audience in such a way.
Go for it… Paul
paul,
hope away but do something about it… this dancing man i hear cracks the whip so hard you wouldnt know what hit you… all’s fair in burn
(you might just get what you want)
Gracie, tell that dancing man to bring it on!
Thanks for the warning.
Paul
DAH has often said that we don’t know who is reading Burn and what opportunities might come our way because our work is seen here. That played out for me recently in an email I received from a photographer named Nicole Rae who has a blog and heard about my “best fall of my life” photo via Twitter. She asked if she could interview me and post my answers on her blog. She just put them up today. The link is
http://www.nicoleraestudio.com/blog/2009/07/passion/
Burn sure is an open door to the world…
Patricia
Argggh! Topped by a sight gag! I’ll never live this down!
14 JUILLET….BASTILLE DAY….
LASERS AND TEASERS, the Fireman’s Ball last year in Antony, my little suburb in France, where oddly, they set things on fire… OUH LA LA!
http://www.pbase.com/uc/lasers_and_teasers
ALL…
BURN MAGAZINE INCLUDED IN SMASHING MAGAZINE LIST OF 35 BEAUTIFUL PHOTOGRAPHY WEBSITES.
Design-wise.
GO ANTON!!! GO DAVID!!!
http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2009/07/10/35-beautiful-photography-websites/
Herve
I had no idea firemen were such fun-loving folks!
Whoa, I go away for a few days and things are buzzing. Tough to keep up.
I spent the weekend at the Vancouver Island music festival in the city of Courtenay, an hour north of where I live. I’m an old folkie,love these festivals. Got to see Arlo Guthrie..too cool. But the highlight of the festival was spoken word artist Shane Koyzan http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fyeiA5JOWA&feature=related very powerful stuff. If I could do with photographs what he does with words.
This past weekend at the Vancouver Island music festival. http://www.pbase.com/glafleur/vancouver_island_music_festival&page=all
Just back here at 3 AM Tuesday night from the weekly meeting of the Bucharest based press photographers. . .
Beautiful walk through empty streets with dogs meandering about. Just got Fiber optic internet connection today. . . it costs the equivalent of $12.50 for the speeds you get in the States through cable internet for $50(!) I can upgrade to the $30 level and get download and upload speeds unavailable in the US. Hmm, Romania was the most oppressed country of the former Soviet Bloc run by Ceausescu, yet 20 years later they have better internet infrastructure than the US. . .
Davin;
I only live 8kms out of town here in NZ and can’t even get broadband!!! I’m stuck on dial-up…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsWy9lg0VHU&feature=related
well, im stuck on the 405 freeway again…
The Raveonettes – Black/White
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z9LXxLn4dbA
no need a camera for a good photo…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nEB9kzV8yoU
baltimore blues…
Dear all, looks like it is a bit of a ceasefire around here (no big arguments) so I hope you don’t mind… I have a new website and would like to hear if you have any comments on the design (email is just fine).
What is interesting about this (the reason I’m sharing it with you) is that it is built with a free software from http://indexhibit.org/
I know many struggle to get simple, functional and nice looking site, and cheap, so there is an opportunity. If you have a friend who knows a bit of css (that’s how mine was built since I am useless with these things), it is really easy to customize… It took us about 4-5 hours. And it is free.
So, if you have time to have a quick look at my site and share concerns/comments please do so. Best,
Veba – very nice and clean. And photos are amazing to add icing to the cake. The only thing that makes me wonder confused in the dark hot streets los angeles of is inability to play the essays as a slideshow. Other than that, it’s awesome for being free.
I am definitely gonna give indexhibit a try – I’ll try it on Panos’s site, in fact. Let him suffer first :)
Mornin’ all..
just a musing; in the last couple of days a few things happened that made me feel the time I’ve put in on this project..my eyes are really opened on the benefits of long term commitment..
Walking down the street, no camera, someone I don’t recognize gives a big wave and a shout “hey camera lady!”..and another local later yells to me across the street “where’s your camera?” and then two old timers, looking out the window of a building I used to walk by and wish I had the nerve to enter, called down to me, “have you had your supper, yet?” and up I went to dine with them on pasta. And then last night, trying to figure out from where Bruce D. took his opening photo in Brooklyn Gang, I went to a building where some ‘toughs’ were sitting, before I might have watched my back a little and walked by, but I talked with them and they let me up on the roof, to stand nearly in the spot where BD stood 50 years ago, to see the changed landscape and think about how much places change when people change so little, to drink it all in..
Thanks Haik… I don’t know, there might be a possibility to play essay as slideshow but I was not looking for that. If you are interested try Indexhibit forums, there are links to all sorts of improvements users made, you might find it there.
Panos, he can not suffer :-)
Erica, that’s a nice musing…
Beautiful stories of a life in photography, Erica. Good on you!
Patricia
Erica, une très belle histoire, I’m happy for you…
Andrew Sullivan and burn get rave reviews on The Travel Photographer:
http://thetravelphotographer.blogspot.com/
ERICA..
thats when you KNOW,
you’re right where
you’re supposed to be…..
xox
cathy. And both deserve it.
emcd. Doors open when you least expect them to.
and little omens appear..
A possible “hurry up and get the new lens’ sensibility under your belt and get back to shooting” from the universe?..Was just running an errand, no shooting, and a woman I’ve never seen before walks right up to me out of nowhere, looks me in the eyes and without giving me a chance to speak before she walks away, says, kindly, no animosity toward me, more of a plea to be heard..
“I’ve lived here 45 years. They’re trying to take my neighborhood. You know what I got offered for my house? 2 million. I told them to go to hell.”
Cathy..thanks for the link! Well deserved!
Yes, Erica, for most of us, lucky ones too, the best confirmation that what we are doing is right, will always come from the world around us, not the recognition by a profession one wants to get into so hard. Which is not a goal, a Graal, but just another of few means available.
But all the same, congrats to Maciej Dakowicz, which some may have met in New York last fall, at DAH’s great RT gathering. Maciej has been doing valiant photography on the side (a big side!), featured yesterday, thru his work for NEED, on the Time.CNN site:
http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1909010,00.html
HERVE
thanks for posting that! fabulous, the opening photo broke my heart with gladness..I just donated to HOPE to help in sustaining this good work. Well done Maciej!
if anyone else is so moved..the link is: https://www.hopefoundation.ie/how-you-can-help
Ross: you should get satellite internet. For $60 a month and a $400-$500 installation fee you can have 1.5 mbps down and occasionally no service when there is a thunderstorm :)))
CATHY…
thanks for the link on the design kudo…all credit goes to Anton….without Anton, Burn would not exist….
cheers, david
David,
Check out the other link I posted this morning…
More praise for burn as well as Andrew Sullivan.
http://thetravelphotographer.blogspot.com/
CATHY…
many thanks for this…i am so proud of Andrew Sullivan….he is on a roll….
cheers, david
now then.
whats up here?
24 hours travel from a small fishing village in croatia to a small fishing village in norway.. tor capa earn’t some decent shut eye
so.. 5 weeks.. 25 rolls of film.. 2500 digital files.. three projects and.. it’s not finished :ø)
one more trip september to get to the source of it all..
hope everyone is good.. going to check back as not been able to se a story since the C12th.. internet is back.
pea’s
david
Kudos to Andrew S for the recognition of your essay, “Samba da Bahia” on The Travel Photographer blog. You deserve every word of praise, my friend. You have found your own unique voice and it truly sings.
David, safe travels. If I remember correctly you are flying off to Tuscany tomorrow. If your workshop is in the same monastery as last year, we won’t be hearing much from you while you’re gone. I trust you will enjoy the non-internet existence!
DAH and ALL, I have Erica to thank for helping me see what was going on with a photo I took this week for my “Falling Into Place” book project. Burn brings so much to my life.
http://www.pbase.com/windchimewalker/image/115004163
Patricia
“DIANA…
welcome…we hope you will become a productive part of our discussions….and please show us your work whenever you feel it appropriate…”
I’m trying to think of some singles to send you. And I have a southwestern desert series but I’m waiting a bit since you just published Lung’s Salton Sea work and one set of desolate abandoned landscapes at a time is probably adequate.
A lot of my work has been music photographer in dive bars — especially punk and psychobilly bands. Not really the kind of thing you publish here. I’m finally trying to work into some more documentary work, but I’m finding it hard approaching people outside of the familiar context of bands and shows. Most of the stuff I have right now aside from music is urban or desert landscapes.
I’m seriously depressed right now because I came off a Santa Fe photo workshop and went straight back to corporate slavery hell — I work as a travel nurse working in administrative positions in nursing homes. I usually get called in after a bad state survey when they “clean house.” The work is miserable in it’s own right, but it gets harder and harder to keep swinging back and forth between the thing you love the most…and the thing you hate the most. Plus I work such long hours it makes it very hard to get out and shoot.
I have a feeling many here understand what I am talking about.
Diana. welcome. “A lot of my work has been music photographer in dive bars ” …you might be suprised how many of them hang out here. Good photography is good photography.
Like your music stuff, much ‘cleaner’ than i do and you catch nice shapes.
John
Diana; “A lot of my work has been music photographer in dive bars — especially punk” Me too at the moment!!
Welcome
DIANA…
we all know what you are talking about…getting to do what you “love most” is a lifetime struggle for most photographers no matter what their “status”…however, definitely worth the extra effort…if you really really love something , you will figure out a way to make it happen…
i am up for all kinds of work here…there is no subject or style of photography i will not publish as long as it comes up to a certain level of excellence or is a worthy experiment….
cheers, david
PATRICIA…
wonderful new photograph!!! see!! even when you were “finished”, you were not finished…some key pictures were done by you after you “closed” the project…good good for you…
i leave saturday for Tuscany…i do hope we can have at least a quick phone chat before i go..
AKAKY…
brilliant , funny piece…as usual, as usual…
cheers, david
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRUqpgg-8Ps
… this one goes to Andrew Sullivan…
( glad u liked the “black & white” )…:))
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQObOsQxKDo
“ode to L.A”
PANOS…
now this is my new favorite rock video….doesn’t get any better than that !!!
it does… watch this one carefully…:))))
hi DAH.
thanks for your reply. i sent you some of my work i’ve downloaded so far. i’ve got much more to do but i guess generally speaking you can still see the way i , what i feel connected to photographically by the body of work thats there so far, other than, what i’m trying to do as a whole. which is Indian festivals which i dont really have any of there yet other than 1 or 2, as i have photographed about 20 or more, and more to photograph still. Big subject in scope.
hope it made it to you.
thanks so much David.
sincerely. peter
Thanks for the kind comments, John. My music friends never understand my fussiness and perfectionism, which is the antithesis of the punk rock mindset. I can’t edit with them watching because they freak out at some of the stuff I throw out. As my friend Nick said, “Diana, the shots you throw out I would hang on my wall.” ;-)
I may post a few links here later. I’m kind of going through one of those “my portfolio sucks and I want to throw everything out and start over” phases.
Re: The Raveonettes – I dig that whole retro thing, but these days my obsession is with Jeffrey Lee Pierce and The Gun Club. Unfortunately there aren’t really any good videos of them. Particularly of the song “Mother of Earth” which is my mood piece I play when working on my southwest desert series.
“…… i gave you the key to the highway, and the key to my MOTEL door…..”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QRmW52noXEQ
ahhhhhhhh… i didnt wanna go “there” tonight….
thanks Diana
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4m5KrPXL4wI&NR=1
right place… wrong time…
thats how i feel everyday….:))))))))))
Ugh. I can’t bear the awful imagery in that homemade video. Just horrid.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpgYzAVssA8&feature=related
Jeffrey… live
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dshqJr7E-dM&feature=related
thank u for tuning in our Late, late show…
please “Dont explain”…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XxwJ9lh-id4&feature=related
hush now… dont explain…from LADY DAY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h4ZyuULy9zs&feature=related
THANK U ALL…
one more Late night show is over…
see you manana….
peace out!
ohhhhhhhh … before i go…
one last…
dedicated to my friend and mentor…. the one & only…
ok…
that was “heavy”…
lets lighten up…
laughing… love y’all…
more tomorrow..
All,
Take a look and good appetite…
http://lens.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/07/15/showcase-22/
JOHN VINK…
sure missed you in London amigo…however, i am headed to Cambodia this fall….
thanks for the link to Susanna Raab….i have been tracking her work for several years….
in high school i worked at McDonalds one year to pay for film, paper, gas for my Chevy etc…i hope the statute of limitations is up and i will not be prosecuted by the fast food company, because my main function in my mind when working under those golden arches was to give away free food to my friends…..i thought at the time i was doing them a favor…guess not….
cheers, david
David!!!!
I don’t appreciate to be made to look foolish on a one post per person thread/ essay, when someone poses questions and I cannot respond to due to rules.
David,
If our picky dog agrees you’re welcome to stay at home…
PS: There is a KFC in Penh…
Hi all:
Just to call your attention to the new BJP campaign: Photography is NOT a crime.
Please check it out and join here:
http://www.not-a-crime.com/
Many cheers,
Armando
RE: Questions asked about the last essay.
Jamie maxton-graham and david bacher raised a couple of questions about the essay by nicola that is up at the moment. I also made some comments as to the impact they had on me. As happy accidents do occur all the time I started looking for a book we have at the studio which presented me with these subjects in a form i could understand..This book was on my desk all along, under a pile of contact sheets and discs and general clutter.
The book is SNAP JUDGMENTS..Okwui Enwezor. , and it is a fantastic collection of work by African photographers. Many styles are represented in it, but there is a real ‘authenticity’ to the portraiture that I struggle to see in most of the work we western artists do there.
I reccommend the book highly.
John
Armando…Good to see you here my friend. I just saw this today too. This is excellent and good to see some prominent photographers already on board. I must try and do one from Beijing. One thing I love about living in China is the openness of Chinese people to being photographed and how little suspicion there is here of photographers. It makes me sad to see the UK being the opposite.
Armando,
Great idea. Full support. I will take my photo also.
peace
IMANTS…
nobody wants to be made to look foolish…who is looking foolish and who has made one look foolish?? nobody that i can see….the one comment per essay idea was just to try to keep everyone on the thread of the essay.. as you may remember, what was happening is that many were going way off topic..away from the essay itself….you made a comment , i made a comment and asked only a rhetorical question which was a response to your question…right???…that is one for one…any more discussion can take place right here….answer the rhetorical right here if you like…or, simply break the “rule”….freedom of speech trumps everything…..
you chose to have open comments on your essay, and we allowed it and it worked because you stayed right in there and commented back…anyone who prefers open comments may have it so….
Imants, exactly what is your issue??
JOHN VINK…
KFC?? really ?? that is not the Phnom Penh i remember….thank you for your hospitality in advance…i think someone has a room for me, but i sure will come over and am anxious to see you in your natural habitat…
cheers, david
If I can only make one comment and I have……why did you bother posing the question to me if I can’t answer…………………it’s just a dumb thing to do
IMANTS…
did you not read what i just wrote??? YOU asked a question!!! i responded with a rhetorical one, but go ahead and answer it as you see fit…
waiting….dumbly
patricia..
not being awake, not thinking conceptually but just out of bed emotionally, when I saw your stuck kite photo I thought..so sad but so beautiful..I felt the disconnect between the flyer and the flown, but mostly my own childlike disappointment, the unfairness that my pretty ladybug kite was out of my hands and my control..but look – the kite’s tail is still wild and free, enjoying the wind, the ladybug is still dazzling and illumined by the kiss of the sun..big hug.
Yep it’s dumb ask in one thread, then I am to respond elsewhere, yep that’s sure makes sense and keeps continuity!!……. your site…….. I’m out of here. Got better things to do….
Regarding the above post – Photography is NOT a crime.
You can find mine and several others contributions on the Flickr group – http://www.flickr.com/groups/iamnotaterrorist/ – or you can see it on my blog – http://thenakedeyes.blogspot.com/
Once again, check this out and join.
Peace,
Armando
Totally off-topic, but thank you Panos for introducing me to my new favorite band. The Raveonettes will be my soundtrack for the rest of the summer. So happy to hear a band that picked up where the jesus and mary chain left off..
now back to photography!
KFC?? really ?? that is not the Phnom Penh i remember….
—————————————————
http://www.pbase.com/uc/image/115027180
Changing, changing, like everywhere…. The KFC was juts a few steps from my hotel, never went in, but there is a good clean coffee shop next to it, which feels like you could be anywhere in NYC, Paris or San Francisco… There is definitely a gentrified side to PP, mostly due to the great number of westerners staying(as opposed to tourists, who go to Siem reap/Angkor), but of course also due to “nouveau-richness”, maybe the first thing that strikes one who was there “before”, when arriving in the city, its jammed traffic and mega construction sites.
“Jesus and Mary chain”..
exactly..Andrew..
How cool is that..
:)))))
KFC!!!
Michael Jackson’s favorite food by the way..
according to Magic Johnson at least..:))
IMANTS…
your are a fine visual artist…i treated you with respect in every way and you know it…we spent a lot of time making sure your essay was done as you saw fit…we opened up comments for you….i bent over backwards to make sure you were pleased with your presentation here on Burn…
Imants, i am assuming you are just having a bad day…your behavior now is totally inappropriate and with not even a modicum of reciprocal respect….you obviously did not read a word i wrote….
yes, you are an amazing artist…i know lots of great artists…temper tantrums among the most creative are way way over-rated and mostly relegated to dramatic movie scenes….remember, uncreative people have bad tempers too….
if you are gone, so be it….ciao squared….
if a good nights sleep helps you, that would be my preference….
a simple discussion on “audience” would have been so much easier….i am open for this any time you choose…we all have better things to do Imants….but, perhaps some good will come from all of this…i hope so…
cheers, david
http://www.viiphoto.com/showstory.php?nID=970
Excellent series of photos by Marcus Bleasdale.
God… I love photography!!!
peace
VIVA BURNIANS !!!
oime today I am happy …ODE TO LAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!
I am in awe!!! To My Caveman!!!
Dear IMANTS…come on, drink with me,my man,…I am drinking wine and I am checking in…
Nobody leaves BURN, cause it’s the place to be…
DAVIDB…Welcome back….kiss my Beate and Tor Capa…I miss you all!!!
KATIE, my street fighter, I am watching you…damnit
MY GRACIE…BURN muse!!!
JOE,LASSAL,AUDREY,KATHARINA,MIKEBER,BOBB,MIKER,KERRY,VALERY,MIKEH,TOMHYDE,PRESTON,REIMAR,ABELE,SIDNEY,LAURA,LISA,ASHER,LANCE,PETE,ERIC,MEDFORD,
MARTINB,PAUL,ZISKAR,STELIOS,MIKEKR,IAN,JARED…SPACECOWBOY…oups,you are so manyyyyyyyyyy…and you and you and the new BURNIANS who are out there …LOVE YOU ALLLLLLLLLLL!!!
ANTON and MR.BURNDAH…what can I say…
THANK YOU!!!
BURN the place down…cause you deserve it!!!
keep the fire on…life is beautiful…i will be back
Photos are on the house:)))
john vink… thanks for posting the Susanna Raab link… i know some of her work but this was very interesting to me… i live in canada but we get allot of the american stations and ad’s on television and all it advertises is fast food commercials… yet these guys seem to be doing really well in this recession… recession food? i hope not… there is a lesson here… thanks for this…
CIVILIAN…
you got it right….many thanks always for your upbeat evaluations on life and love….
hugs, david
To OUR PATRICIA,
You are a fireLady…
and ERICAMCD,
You are a firewriter…
LOVE u Ladies…you rock!!!
I want to see more…BURNLADIES…rock my world!!!
yea… we all need a drink….
for sure some day… in real world…
mojito for everyone…
for sure for me :)
what we need more than mojito and photography ????…
:)
MR.HARVEY,
don’t forget …when you will be in Italy,check on your left…Greece will be waiting for you…
i am sending good energy…your key is ready…under the empty wine bottles:)
Can’t miss it…right Jim…:)))
ENJOY
MARCIN…
i cannot think of a single thing….
cheers, david
MARCIN,
you got me dude…mojito…can I drink with you?
Diana,
Which workshop did you just take? I’m in Santa Fe…
CATHY,
in Santa Fe…!!!
please, can you bring some insight flames from what you are “going through”…:)!:)!:)
Marcin: what we need more than mojito and photography ????…
Love?
John
Will be mojito… will be a love… :)
LOVE…?
You nailed it JOHNY !!!
What is life all about…without EVOL BURN or EVIL BURN…
love live BURN !!!
P.S I thought love is on the house…:)
David.. along with the umbrella also bring the parasol, it’s 41°C over here at 6 pm..
EVA…
hmmmmm, sounds delightful!! that’s ok, the good company i always find in Tuscany will overcome whatever weather is in store for us….i arrive sunday morning….i think you will off to Greece by then…too bad
JOHN VINK….
ah yes, love…well, i assumed love was there even before the mojito or the photography….who wants to drink a mojito alone and how can you shoot if you are not in love???
cheers, david
David.. pity, but TPW will stay in Tuscany, me too, so it’ll have to be for the next time, wish you a great week!
CIVILIAN…
it is almost a crime i have never been to Greece….how in the world did that not happen???? well, now that i know pretty well two Greeks besides Nikkos and Costa, maybe i can get invited…i did however go to a Greek wedding once…still recovering…..
cheers, david
Dearest MR.HARVEY,
I don’t know about the other Greeks…:)
BUT you have officially a house in Greece!!!no kidding
as well as the other BURNIANS…
I am not in Greece right now, I am still traveling.
I am on the other side of the Universe…
I have your e-mail address and as soon as I will be back home YOUR KEYS will be available for
immediate pick up !!!
There is no way back…there is NO RECOBERY…after Greece…
You will be BURNED FOREVERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
EVA,
are u going to Greece? where will u stay?
What part? How long? need help?
Civilian,
What I am “going thru???” No comprende.
Do you mean to ask this to Diana? She was the one who mentioned “coming off” a workshop here.
I was just asking her which one.
My friend, the wonderful concert pianist Yannis arrives from greece tommorow night.
he is not only a great pianist but a gifted photographer also.http://www.flickr.com/photos/yannaras/3019028747/in/photostream/
Last time he was he here he wrote a wonderful piece of music for me which i have just used to make a short story about a piano. Its quite poignant.
CATHY,
oups…I missed some BURN episodes and since I am a dyslexic and English is my third language…
go figure…I am trying really hard to keep up with all of you!!!
I thought that you are in Santa Fe too…cause you are always somewhere!!!
What not to love!!!
Anyways, whoever has something to report…please, feel free to report…
Sharing is always in the BURN menu…hihi
LadiesBURNS ~~~~~~~~~~~
GentsBURNS ~~~~~~~~~~~~
Share your “BURNS”
Civilian, arriving in Πάτρα, from there direction Θεσσαλονίκη, stopping and staying wherever we like it, could I ask for more? :)
There’s a little Caribbean restaurant in Chicago that makes an incredible mojito. I can’t think of the name of the place. Not too far from Harry Carey’s. A little help with the name?
Civilian,
You are the one we all have to keep up with!!
You got it right, I am in Santa Fe…just wasn’t sure which report you wanted :))
All is well here, very busy.
Actually I have to deliver a disc of photos to someone tomorrow so I’m working on that at the moment.
Tomorrow Paul Fusco of Magnum is giving a lecture which I will attend. I’ll take notes and will post them here along with the notes I took last week at Susan Meiselas.
JOHNY, MY MR.WALKER,
you know that your Greek name is YIANNIS…and all of you with the name John=Yiannis!!!
Yes, in Greece, we are so proud of Yianni!!!
He is from Kalamata, Peloponnisos, southern Greece…the best olive oil and the Kalamata olives…
so many things to write…
Well, if you see him again….give him to read this:
Κυριε Γιαννη,
Απο την ΕΛΛΑΔΑ, με πολυ, πολυ αγαπη, ειμαστε περηφανοι για σενα !!!
Ευχαριστουμε!
VIVA and thanks!!!
David,
While Imants probably over-reacted I think the underlying point of his post has some merit.
Your response to him, basically, called him out on a point and a couple of posts down Panos
gave him a little shot. Neither worth getting worked up about but his point is, if I understand
correctly, is that by following the one post rule he has to respond and defend, as he sees fit,
in a secondary thread that might not be familiar to habitual users of Burn.
As a result of not having his ‘defense’ in sequence with the ‘attack’ he is made to look ‘foolish’,
as he states.
I thought the spirit of the one post rule was that the post had to critique the image(s) and not
reply to other posters.
THANKS CATHY,
WE count on you…keep it BURNing
Good point MR.TOMALTY,
IMANTS…is drinking with me right now…
and Mr.PANOS received a two point deduction from the ONE POST rule under the ESSAYS.
MR.DAH is getting ready to travel to Italy…and today we are drinking moito with John,Marcin,Yianni, Cathy, Eva…and all of YOU!!!
Imants…where is Mike?
Quite funny…
From Apollo 11 command module onboard voice transcription (quoting EMCD, some scribbling on the dark…side of the Moon ;)
Notes:
CDR is Armstrong
CMP is Collins
LMP is Aldrin
Camera is Hasselblad
CDR: What are you doing, Mike? What you taking pictures of –
CMP: Oh, I don’t know. Wasting film, I guess.
CDR: You can take some pretty good pictures out of the hatch, here.
CMP: You’re right. This crapping thing – … set on f:4 or 5.6; that’s probably about right.
…
LMP: Alright, now, do we want black and white, color, 250, or 80? I’ve got all options over here.
CDR: Oh, we’ll probably want – How many cameras you got?
LMP: Let me have a camera. How many cameras?
CMP: Well, only one camera, but I’ve got… lenses.
LMP: You’re a poor…
CDR: Well, let’s take some color, and –
CMP: Want the 80, right? On this one?
Full trancripts here:
http://www.jsc.nasa.gov/history/mission_trans/AS11_CM.PDF
check also on page 192:
LMP: We’re BURNing, Mike.
LMP: BURN complete, Mike.
CMP: Good show.
Yep, GOOD SHOW ON BURN!
“Mr.PANOS received a two point deduction from…….”
Likely as a result of exceeding the two JOINT rule !
MTOMALTY…
i will go back and read all of these comments again…i did not see anything Panos wrote …and i certainly was not attacking….actually, in my mind, i was writing with a sense of humor just remembering the comments of so many asking Imants the same question “who are these pictures for?”…intended totally as “tongue in cheek”…in any case, i would never do anything intentional here to make anyone look foolish…just not my style…and the note i wrote Imants after his initial response gave him total freedom and total respect to respond wherever he wanted whenever he wanted…he just seemed stuck on this one point, which was a mute point any way you look at it…i certainly did not call him “dumb” which was his only response to me……sorry Mark but this is too much from someone with whom i gave a lot of my time….anyone who spends any time here at all knows full well i am not on the attack to anyone ever….to me it seemed Imants just wanted to pick some kind of fight just for the sake of it…BUT, having read your note, i will retrace the whole comment stream and give both of you the benefit of the doubt…thanks for bringing it up….
cheers, david
David,
Not my fight,whatsoever.
Just thought i’d jump in with a ‘neutral’ perspective
Dearest MarkT,
After reviewing Imants essay…I have to give the two JOINT deduction points to
Jim, Oli, John,Jamie,emcd, Patricia,Gordon, Bobb,Herve…
By the way…who am I to talk about points…
All my life is about adding not deducting…
LOVE ,PEACE and PHOTOGRAPHY can only add points to our short journeys on this earth…
VIVA
There was no one post limit on Imants essay, at his request. I want my points back! ;)
Jim..
Correct… Same here.. Thanks
Fight for your point!!
Dling…Dling…
no picking fights and BURN no points
emcd would have asked…? what are you photographing today???
I am checking out…too much love…for one Civilian to carry on
oh,before I go…
Haik, Akaky, Wendy, Andrewb…please proceed for check in …”:))))
one last question???
who,what…would like to photograph before you check out from planet earth ???
MTOMALTY…
yes, i know Mark …much appreciated….after looking at the comment stream again, i would have to say there is some over-reaction from every direction…my intended humor with Imants was based on my impression of him being a rather feisty character and has a no holds barred manner of writing himself… i thought surely he would get the “joke”….Panos’ remark , which came AFTER my comment/question, probably fueled his feeling of looking foolish….however, all he had to do was answer the question (which was based on his question)…i told him clearly he could break the one comment rule and just make his point….he could have/should have just simply written his way out of it…anyone can see what i was telling him…and i remind you again, i called him twice a “great artist” and his response was to diss me twice…my colleagues in the online magazine biz question my willingness to have a blog….Alec Soth gave up the blog biz after stuff like this just got to be too too much….time waste…..
anyway, not your battle….and mine no more either….
more importantly, who ever would have guessed that McEnroe would go ESTABLISHMENT????
cheers, david
CIVILIAN…
i am taking pictures today/right now…of a cat…..the subject of a new story….this morning i took a picture of a man with a fish….later the cat will eat the fish….things are really rockin here!!!
i have noticed alot of heightened emotion in the comments over the years. saw it on soth’s blog too. and it is at least one of the reasons why lightstalkers has lost its initial usefulness. i hope this doesnt happen here. it is mostly a nice place to visit where a pretty large variety of work is given exposure that it wouldnt necessarily get. for some reason, the web seems to engender knee-jerk reactions and off-the-cuff responses, even when the original intentions are nothing but good…
meant to say also, these are probably reasons i dont join discussions so much but sit back and observe from the edges
Mr.Kenneth,
I had to come back…I love your website…You are such an “edge observer”…
Viva NY !!!
David, I really do not need a cliche rant about artists and tantrums that is the type of statement that a schoolboy would make who saw the movie instead of reading the book.’
Whether the question is rhetorical or not it is still a question and required a reply. In this case I had no right of reply on that thread and placing a reply elsewhere serves no purpose as it is out of context.. In the end it seems like a abuse of power and privilege by the owner of the site/blog/forum.
“your behavior now is totally inappropriate and with not even a modicum of reciprocal respect….you obviously did not read a word i wrote…. now that is an assumption and a threat rolled in one!!!!!
Nice one………………..
BURNIANS,
you got the ok from MR.HARVEY…himself!!!
He has a new project…the fish will eat the cat…
I am drooling…hmmmm…
Who are You Mr.DAH ???
P.S i am jealous mate…damnit…you are good!!!!
Kenneth… while it is sometimes sickening to read the “knee-jerk reactions” it could be also amusing, sometimes…
These reactions are often understandable since it is our nature to feel first, and to reason only second. Online discussions, unfortunately, do not allow the time for thinking over and reasoning before replaying. People read things they think they don’t like and hastily reply… There is no way around it, it seems…
While I never argue online (rarely comment at all), I wrote things that I would gladly delete 2 hours later… by then it’s too late. “Observing from the edges” is a good situation to be in…
I wonder, in 2 hours, will I regret writing this comment…
Best,
Imants,
I was waiting for you…
who hurts you my man?…
you didn’t like my drink?
I loved your essay…like a bridge over my troubled waters…
My new BURNIAN…will you drink another round with me?
Viva to my etr….ckooooooooooooooooooooooo
LIVE to the FULLEST,
never regret,
try to forget.
Life is a fish
waiting to be eaten
by a cat in the mist.
Laugh like a bull,
cry like a wolf,
respect what you see
even if you don’t agree.
BURN like a film
in the darkroom
you’ve been
way too long
time to come home
Civilian
Imants is acting like a baby. David was right, why does Imants suddenly worry about the audience when his essay, or whatever, obviously didnt? It is strange, I dont know if I would call it hypocrisy but just taking the two essays, Imants’ and Nicola’s, Nicola’s essay obviously is more geared towards a general audience than Imants’.
Just break the rule if you so desperately want to answer the question. Others have. The question is, Imants, COULD you actually answer the question taking into consideration your own essay?
KENNETH….
nice website and work indeed…yes, mostly this is a nice place to visit…thank you for being here…please jump in when you feel it appropriate…..and i think we should publish some of your work…
IMANTS…
i read my reply to you over several times…i clearly told you to go ahead and reply right under my comment on the essay, so there would be no break in continuity…..since you are back, let’s please discuss a photographer’s relationship to their audience or if , in fact, we have an audience in mind when we work..THIS is an interesting discussion…
power abuse?? threats?? hmmmmmm…i did not read that book or see the movie…
if i were in your city now, i would take you out for a cold one….when i am in your city, i will do it…
cheers, david
Whenever feathers get ruffled on Burn, who can be counted on to pour (olive) oil over troubled waters and make us ALL smile? Let’s hear it for a civilian-mass audience!!! Hey, maybe civi is the only audience any of us needs to care about…
Patricia
Rafal, how is it obvious?
David the rules stipulate that on this essay that only one comment is allowed, changing the goal posts mid stream would be setting a precedence for others to request the same. Unfortunately it’s become a dead rubber……….
OUR PATRICIA,our PAT,
I am so proud of you. I haven’t been around lately…but oime, you are an inspiration…
You are my white eagle…
and yes…civilians are next to you…
listen to them…
photographers,
we are next to you…we support you when you are down…
we support you when you are up…
and we love you no matter what….
But we need your RESPECT…
P.S maybe a cold beer too:)))
LOVE YOU
IMANTS,
is my book ready and signed ?
well, my doctor says that i have to let go off my keyboard …:(
BURNIANS, keep rolling …the way that only YOU can…
see ya soon…LOVE
and now BACK TO THE REGULAR PROGRAM…
What was that again we need the most? photography, majoli and no love lost….. er…phoDAHgraphy….Majoli…. or Mojito…. Maybe Mojita?
Who is Mojita? The girl David will fall in love with in Pnom Pemnh’s KFC… Reading Nietzsche? How can this be all we need, Marcin? HELP!
Maybe I read thru the last posts too fast….
ACME, David and Anton can testify (circa PARIS 2008): I do not smoke the stuff… But yes, we all need….Imantscipation sometimes!!!!
PS: Nitezsche is hip this week. On the cover of L’ EXPRESS and LIRE (read in french). NIETZSCHE and WAGNER, the full story, page 20: did they have sex together, what was the break-up about? Mojita? Cosima? Egos? Or just a summon from Wikipedia to stick to the Ytube side of things? WAGNER FOR DUMMIES! Tonight, I will read, I will know, I will be…. Cultivated… Imantscipated… Knowledge in one page….
What not to love?
:-))))))))))))))))
CIVILIAN…
right after the cat ate the fish about a half hour ago , i spoke with Patricia on the phone…she is everything you think she is….and more….i do wish that someday you both meet….i will work very hard with Patricia this fall to make sure her book is just perfection…then, i want to make sure a film is done on her as well…so much exciting happening with our Patricia…you are right to have her as an inspiration…i certainly do as well….
cheers, david
DAVID,
Mate, You have the patience of a Saint, and I thank you for that.
The gems that come out of this site far outway everything else..
The story that Erica told the other day;
“Walking down the street, no camera, someone I don’t recognize gives a big wave and a shout “hey camera lady!”……..
Has been doing laps in my head for a few days now.
Thats what keeps me coming back, and wanting to do more.
Just another day
The good old holiday season has arrived over here. Time to relax, time to sleep in, time to get the cameras serviced, time to come up with new ideas.
It is already past midnight in my part of the world. Just looked at Patricia’s kite in the tree which says so much. Well done Patricia! Looking forward to see your book!
Thank you John Vink for the link to the fine fast food essay by Susanna. By the way I found the best American fast food in Beijing. Can you believe this? I thought it was even tastier there or was I just dilluted by the air? Anyway. A great big thank you to Abele as well for the Apollo quote! Loved that! Downloaded the entire 250 pages of the moontalk. One day I have to replay this Captain Kirk style with some of my friends who have a weakness for spacetravel… if someone needs a Hassleblad, there is still one on the moon…
Good to see Civilian back on stage! Thought you might have disapeared. Yes, I have a glas of vine ready. Santé! It’s French wine today. Back to the Italian when the bottle is empty… I found a bottle of homemade Greek Tsikoudia poking around my shelves. Hm, wonder what that one does? Flirting with my Prosecco? Who knows.
So, it is the holiday season now and I had not much to do today except for coming up with a new long term project. But that was early this morning before breakfast time. The main part of the day I spent with picking up a new wrench that I ordered the other day. It is a special wrench of the size 25. To all who are not familiar with european wrenches: in an ordinary toolbox you have all sizes except for 25 and 26, which are always missing. No idea why? So I paid 16 Euros for this fairly big piece of metal. Back home I was about ready to start and open some nuts with it. For some strange reason I looked in one of the many boxes that stand around at this old water mill and guess what I found: two wrenches the size of 25 and 26 plus 27 on the other end. Okay you might say now that I should keep things in better order. Yes, that’s right. But this old mill I am working in is full of hidden stuff, full of surprises. Until a year ago I hardly looked at the stuff that is stored inside. Now I discover all sorts of things. It is so good to have a second wrench so I can hold the nuts and bolts (?) on both ends. Nothing desired, nothing wished and still got all I needed. This might sound a bit over the top, but I feel like the master of zen ;) Apart from the bolts there was plenty of other stuff to do – believe me I was sweating like a watering-can all day.
After all this work I had to rest. I mean it is the holiday season, right? So I lay on a bench and looked into the blue sky and saw the green leaves of my beloved trees above me. Right beside on the pond were 3 ducks with their young ones feeding plus an extended family of pond chickens – no idea what they are called in English. Birds were making noises in the trees and I noticed an insect biting my toe. Jeeeee! SCRATCHING!!! Then I fell asleep. When I woke up after an extremely wonderful nap in the warm evening sun it was feeding time for me.
I guess it was just another day.
Good night everybody!
Reimar
HERVE…
what exactly are you smoking??? if it is not illegal, it should be…laughing…will you be in San Franciso in january?? hope to see you…..
cheers, david
CIVILIAN: thanks for taking the time to look….
VELIBOR: i totally agree, i guess that’s why i mostly hang on the edges. i have typed some pretty ridiculous nonsense myself over the years….and im sure ive been the cause of a chuckle here and there too….
DAVID: i would be thrilled, and i’ll try and take more time to involve myself with this community. by the way, love the cat and fish story….
MATHEW….
always so nice to hear from you mate….you always bring a smile to my face….hey, was it last year we were in Thailand , or the year before??? i am pretty much in touch with almost everyone from our band of thieves..i will be in Cambodia later this year and was thinking of swinging down to OZ…you around???
REIMAR…
are you trying to compete with Akaky?? you never told us what your new project is to be…so…????
anyway, as i work around my space i also notice that the right wrench is NEVER in the box…that must be an international phenomenon like two socks in the washing machine and only one out…
enjoy the rest of your holiday….however, it sounds a bit exhausting!! like most holidays…
cheers, david
Don’t do that to me, David!!!! I will be in…. Pnom Penh in January (or Ahmedabad, or Bangkok).
oh and by the way Velibor, I am reading The Lazarus Project at the moment….also love your work from chicago on your website, particularly “Following Nowhere Man” which evokes Chicago to me in a very haunting and eloquent way, reminding me of that city i rambled around in for three years.
David;
I don’t suppose you’ve thought of running a workshop in Oz will you? It’s only a 2 1/2 flight for me to visit my Oz cousins!!! :-)
You guys kill me. I’m going to Ft. Oglethorpe in the morning. If I have time I may stop by Ringold. I’m just not sure… maybe Phnom Pen is close to Cedar Bluff… nust be Alabama. That’s an hour ahead. Man, I just can’t keep up you jet-setters…. I’m in the old Chevolet set –Paul
David,
no, no, no, Akay is Akay. This simply happened today.
The idea I had this morning was to document the life in and around the University of Osnabrueck where I teach during the semester. There are so many different faculties and I hardly know what is going on inside. However this is more a job rather than a personal project, but it needs time to do this.
Truth be told: this university thing is not where my heart is. Something that really intrests me is science. I am not a scientist at all, my cerebral capacities are way too limited for that, but I find it exremly interesting. Remember we talked you about Bill Bryson’s book “A short history of nearly everything”. Bill Bryson sparked my interest in science. So when I thought about what really, really intrests me I came up with the idea to take portraits of scientists. This would be a real personal long term project. Scientists work more or less hidden away, rather unnoticed by the public and yet, they come up with the most amazing ideas that influence our life. I hope I can combine my intrest to look into someone’s face and at the same time I hope to reveal and learn a bit more about the person and their work. Photographywise I like to keep it rather simple. First of all I have to start and do some research.
What do you think? For good ideas and help I am always thankful.
Best
Reimar
I have nothing to say. Just got back from the opening of a new Indian restaurant here in Bucharest. The women alone!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RriUskRj0J4
Ugh, work sucked today. But I’m trying to line up another gig right after this one so I can do the Oaxaca workshop this fall.
Till then I want to work on some stuff around Detroit. But trying to come up with a focus for a project there.
I’m just curious about everyone’s work process. Do you tend to go out and just start shooting and see where it takes you, or do you try to come up with a concept and focus that drives your work before you even begin?
CATHY
The workshop with Chris Rainier. I am SO in withdrawal right now! :-(
Mojitas or MARGARITAS!?!
Margaritas and Santa Fe photo workshops SO go together. I misses teh southwest.
Davin, you need to get one of those BMW’s right away :)
I’m so hot for her: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vLxNi1763eo
Diana;
I find that i need a project to keep me focus, I’ve never been very good at shooting randomly. I find that for projects I start shooting for the project and see where it takes me at the start.
Cheers
Kenneth: well, they are priced in Euros here, so a 2009 BMW M6 is 103,000 Euros or about $145,000. I’d be better off getting one in the states and shipping it here for $5,000 :)))))) If you saw my bank balance, you’d laugh! I am awaiting a transfer from a Chinese magazine of a few hundred dollars which should pay August’s groceries and expressos :)))))))
Oh man…give me the Stones over any of these crappy ass bands all over the charts and MTV these days…
Davin:
Believe me, I wouldnt laugh…..
Matthew
am sitting in a church right now, at a healing mass, partly in search of photos, partly to understand the community, partly to heal :) but hit a spot in the sermon that didn’t jibe with me, and checked in here and saw what you wrote. Very touching to me, especially listening to a mass on giving back. My being able to give something here is something that is important to me, but also brings goodness back to me.so thank you.
DAVID,
Two years ! Doesn’t seem that long ago though. It was a great crew.
That is one thing I feel I have missed being a freelancer, especially not living in a major city. Having a strong peer group would be great – Just one more thing that Burn provides.
Australia. I suggest you just swing by Darwin grab Glenn and head down to the Heart shaped island at the bottom of the world.Tasmania. I’ll be at the Shack waiting with a few cold ones.
I think you would like it.
Erica,
I have spent much of the last year following three Nigerian Priests as they settle in Tasmania for a TV doco.
I also travelled to Nigeria to see what their home was like. I have sat through many, many sermons so I can relate to getting to a part that dosent jibe with you.
I’m sure I’m not the only one that is thankfull for your efforts….
Kenneth… Thanks a lot. Yes, The Lazarus Project, let me know what you think of it? It was the finalist for the National Book Award and for the National Book Critics Award, and while the awards don’t really mean much it was still great to be involved in that kind of project, especially with my best friend…
Your work is great but I love your Nocturne series the most.
Funny how few different conversations take place here on Burn, in the same time… Best,
I don’t usually blush while reading comments on Burn but I did just that after reading Civilian’s and DAH’s recent comments. Believe me, it means a lot to feel such support from people I admire and respect. As we all know there’s a lot of solitary effort that goes into this photo work we love. Seems that just when I’m feeling most weary or overwhelmed or intimidated someone here will say something that gives me that extra boost I need. It sure helps to know we’re not alone, that our work is valued by others, and that some of them really go out of their way to help. For me David Alan Harvey, Carl Bower and so many of you are my hidden wings. My body may feel like a kite caught in a tree but my spirit is soaring.
Speaking of which, I am seriously considering renaming my self portrait book “A Kite Caught In A Tree” and using the kite pic as the cover phto. I just tried it out on my Blurb template and very much like the look and feel of it. It tells the whole story…
Patricia
PATRICIA
Seems we’re neighbors, fellow Detroiter…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnTD7BcEm7E&NR=1
Stones…?? f**k the Stones…
Sid is the man!
Ladies & Gents..
welcome back.. one more Late Night Show just begun…
todays theme is…….. “hold on tight”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCPEwq0BIQY
After one thousand requests…
I present this band from Denmark…
The Raveonettes – Aly, Walk With Me – LIVE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iy3imeRZc0M
thats how it all started
Question: do play the guitar?
why?
A new movie is coming up … The Edge, Jimmy Page and my favorite guitar player of all times will try to answer…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gLESpHrtvxs
Who is my favorite guitar player???? above…
Sid? Pft.
Diana, that is SO COOL!!!! Please email me at playdorsey at comcast.net
Patricia
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VutMLnjXTY4&feature=related
real DETROIT music here….
Diana…:))))))))
thanks for playing with us…
play , play…play music with us… for us…..
The Raconteurs “Steady, As She Goes”
Broken Boy Soldier
wanna watch something coooooooooooooooool??????????
there u have it…
MINIPOP
Minipop – “Like I Do”
POMARA…
what are you talking about Paul?? you are the ULTIMATE jet setter!! didn’t you fly with the Blue Angels???
REIMAR…
i had totally forgotten our chat about Bill Bryson…a truly funny funny man..in his life and in his work….we worked on a Spain story together awhile back…i may have told you that he had an interpreter who got so drunk she slipped and passed out in his hotel room bathroom…both of us panicked as we tried to drag her out of his room and over to her room….it did not look good….dead weight is dead weight…we got her out into the hallway and in front of her room, but we could not find her key..so now here is his interpreter lying in the hall of our hotel and we realize we had to try to drag her back to his room which was way down the hall (i was on another floor and this was our final decision)…about this time , along comes a room service waiter serving another guest who sees these two guys dragging/lifting a woman’s body …i think Bill said something like “don’t worry, she is a friend”….i will never forget the look on the waiter’s face…..but, all worked out just fine…we did end up with a nice story for the magazine…
if you are interested in science as you say you are , then you must figure out an interesting way to photograph scientists…you have your work cut out for you, because to get that feeling you have about them will require some deep deep thought….most pictures we see of scientists just have some hyper lit guy standing in front of a test tube or some kind of machine…to capture their personality will be daunting, but if you can do it and do it well, then you will make a mark…the hard part is that what they actually do is often more or less invisible depending of course on whether or not you can see what it is that they are doing…i think you will have to go for truly strong portraiture as you suggested..yes, go for the faces…the eyes..it might all be in the eyes…forget the machines…i cannot remember right now who photographed the eyes of Oppenheimer, the inventor of the atomic bomb….those eyes are with me now…cannot forget…that is an extreme example, but maybe it will get you thinking…
DIANA…
i do it both ways…i try to do as much research on any subject as i can get my hands on…depending on the subject , i try to find the obvious material to read and, more importantly, the not so obvious….for one thing, i like to read a good novel which may remotely pertain to the subject…novelists tell a special truth….my whole concept for Divided Soul came from a little novella by Jose Camilla Cela “Travels in the Alcarria”….an unlikely source , but the vivid visual imagery of Cela’s writing and his concept of the divided soul of the Spanish conquistadores gave me all i needed as a SPARK…the rest was all me living the life…experience research….serendipity….based on history , based on “true stories”, but also laced with the metaphysical encumbrances of just sleeping on the ground with the pilgrims to Galicia, sitting in a room while Segovia practiced, watching the blood flow out of a dying bull and using lemons to clear my eyes from the police tear gas….all of this works together along with an undying quest to be a “part” of the whole…
cheers, david
FEMALE VOCALS …. cant live without it…
can u????????????
enjoy here:
Ladies and Gents… the Ettes
The Ettes-Crown Of Age
REAL Detroit music….and as an added bonus, I live in this building in the flat below where this was filmed. Mine is almost identical except I have a huge window seat in the room where the album covers are on the floor.
Diana… keep rolling……….
and to honor Detroit……( this one for Akaky )..:)
“mainstream” now… i hear you..i hear u:))))))
but sorry… cant ignore the little white guy…
hi DAH.
hope my homepage made it through to you as I’m never sure if and when things may or may not work..? mm? that sounded confusing just in itself.
thanks David.
your brilliant.
peter
girls VOCALS………. paradise for me……
Sea of Love by Cat Power
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dk6qD1Uh4PQ&feature=fvw
who is CAT POWER???????????????/
who cares… i love her
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8ZhLBO9NZY
You might recognize Little Red Riding Hood from one of your earlier vids…
Okay, have to go to bed now to go back to hellish job tomorrow.
and one more LATE night show comes to an end with my favorite girl …
Mary J. Blige – Take Me As I Am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8EEnFvynzI&feature=fvsr
love y’all…
till manana night…
peace and……..
hold on tight..
ok… ok… ok…
last one.. stop emailing for encore…
ok… ok…….
how can i say no???????
last one………
goodnight……
( i should be suspended from class… )…:))))))))))))
We could use some rain around here.
allright…
i hate to sleep in guilt….
i was about to play this in the tomorrow Late Night Show…
but y’all know me by now…
i dont hold back…
a little masterpiece for all the insomniacs out there…
TV on the Radio, Music Video, Dreams
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GX8g_IR2OEA
goodnite now…..for REAL..
:))))))))
David,
great story about Mr Bryson! Big laugh!
You got me thinking. And more thinking is certainly needed! Yes, the eyes, the eyes! You nailed it! Thank you so much.
Akaky,
please forgive my spelling mistake! Ahhhh! I would sink into the ground if I could.
Panos,
thanks for the The Raveonettes! The drummer reminded me of Moe Tucker. And the Jesus & Mary Chain are still on stage. Wow!
Reimar
DAH,
In response to your comment regarding Nicola lo Calzo’s portraits, no I have no problem with what others are doing. I have been shooting for some time and have seen quite a bit of different work. I grew up in Virginia seeing your work in National Geo, and Lucian Perkin’s and Carol Guzy’s photos in the Wash Post. It was when Carol visited my high school photo class that I got hooked on this profession/obsession. Later I spent 6 months in Denmark at the Danish School of Photojournalism (where Jenn Ackerman also studied btw) and I was introduced to the b/w and extremely contrasty work of many Danes, ie. Erik Refner, Joachim Ladefoged etc. At first this style shocked me in comparison to what I had grown up seeing in the U.S., but eventually I warmed up to it.
Finally I’ve settled in France and I just cannot warm up to these kinds of stark portraits, especially when they are categorized as reportage. For one thing they seem too easy, technically, and secondly they don’t tell a story the way that I am used to. After 5 years in France I understand that this kind of photography is very well accepted. As a final caviat I showed some of my work on reindeer herding cultures to a photographer in the Collectif L’oeil Public at Visa 3 years ago….His only comment. Your photos look Americain.
ciao
David
DAVID
Just checking in after a long hiatus. It took me awhile to figure out where regular conversations were being posted, but I finally did so, here I am.
Since I think we all often omit to tell our teachers how much we appreciate them and instead, brew and stew about our grades and perceived unfair criticism, I wanted to take a moment to thank you for all you have done with Burn and it’s transformation from the ole blog. You and Marcin have done a great job with it and you should be thanked. I think more than anything you should be commended for your tireless, positive energy and attitude, which I am sure has been a huge component in the success and length of your career and serves you well with much of the officiating you’ve had to do here. If journalism really does die, you would make a great mediator.
Now that I’ve said my piece, on to really important matters.. How did McEnroe become establishment?
David,
Yikes! I’m busted. Please don’t tell me we met back then… perhaps Hibbing, MN?
DIANA…
left a comment for you back up a bit answering your question…easy to get lost here and thought you may have missed it…
Charlie
Burn is David’s and Anton’s child not my. I am only guest here :)
Panos – I used to have an old red Airline guitar almost exactly like Jack White’s; traded it for a GT freestyle bike, as it had a lot of wear on the frets. Wish I still had it, because those things really jumped in value after the White Stripes came out :-(
Reimar – David is absolutely right about photographing scientists. I used to work for a biotech company, and the labs are visually VERY boring – unless you want to light it up with a bunch of colored gels like they do in annual reports (but that’s been done to death…)
CHARLIE…
welcome back!! are you still in Barcelona?? i am assuming you finished your migration piece, but would love to see it in its entirety…in any case, please keep me updated on your projects and let me have a look when you have time….
DAVID BACHER…
i understand totally where you are on this…and you should never force yourself to do anything which does not come natural…just make sure that what you are doing IS natural…is it not possible that your shooting style came from your first exposure to photography?? in other words, had you seen the Euro style first, would that not have appealed more or been the backbone of your aesthetic??? just a question not a statement…your work does look very solid and basic…in the American tradition of “telling a story with pictures”….the NPPA, newspapers, Natgeo, etc etc did have a great impact on the styles of many who followed…surely the elements of integrity and balance of the American newspaper ethic are virtues to a point…but, it really is easy for any international editor to spot this “look”..unfortunately, almost a formula…
the irony of this of course is that even the American magazines really only hire the photographers who have either abandoned this style or have spun it in their own personalized direction….they already have McCurry, Allard , etc…they do not need a clone of someone else, they want a fresh eye…..all i am trying to say to you David is that for you to break into this craft in the way that i think you want to go, you are just going to have to add your own specialness to the mix…
you cannot TRY to do this….you will just have to go back to basics and really figure out who David Bacher really is…this could come in the form of a revelation that washes over you 5 minutes from now…or, by launching on a personal project that allows you some leeway in exactly how you tell a particular story….think conceptual rather than literal..without losing any of the journalistic integrity of the a, b, c method of information gathering…once this hits you, you will never go back…i promise…it will change your life in the most direct way…you are not far away …you are close…just that extra fourth of an inch that sets you apart….think on it….and perhaps we can chat by Skype for more specifics….up for it??
cheers, david
There is nothing wrong with an american style. I always admired American photography over European, to me it doesnt get any better than people like Goldin or Eggleston or Shore, or Harvey. American photography has always been on the cutting edge and I think it leads more than it follows. So Im a big fan of American photographers.
Reimar, I studied Science and I like it too but I wouldnt try to photograph it. It is a visually boring subject. You could always do portraits but good portraits are more than just a face, and I dont see how you could really make it a visually grabbing work. The tricks mentioned are cliche and over done. Good luck because I think you have a lot to think about as far as how to make it look good.
POMARA…
Paul, i went for two rides myself in the RIO seat of an F4 Phantom fighter (well, they were hot at the time), but not with the Blue Angels, who i think went to the A4 at some point shortly thereafter , then the F16 etc etc….anyway, i knew you were THE MAN….we never met that i know of…….i must say that flying along the deck at 30 feet and then pulling straight up with afterburners full on is not something i will ever forget…i knew the main job of the Navy pilots was to make sure i got sick…part of the code…actually i did not get sick because i was totally focused on trying to get pictures and knew i would never get the opportunity again….it took me weeks and weeks to set up for these two flights….
cheers, david
David… Do you ever come to Montreal? I’m wondering, it is not far away from your base… Out of couriosity, have you ever been to Sarajevo?
“Le Mois de la Photo a Montreal” is coming up in September… Anyone visiting?
VELIBOR…
i have only been to Montreal once and really enjoyed the city….no, i have never been to Sarajevo….for all of my traveling, there are so many places i would like to return (like Montreal) and the list of unvisited places is impressive indeed….isn’t it time we took a good look at your work??
cheers, david
Come on, David. This latest essay is just way over the top. Gotta be better stuff in the cue than this!?
David… Any time, I would love to talk about it (my work) with you… Just tell me, email address, this forum, whatever is the best way to do it… Just a warning, I am 43 years old, war survivor, engineer who converted to photography very late (but not too late), and finally, someone who took a bold step and went to study photography in the art school… Despite all of this I am not so weird… Thanks a lot for the offer, and you are welcome to Montreal any time.
My email: vebahood@gmail.com
Justin..:)
I hear u.. Story of my life..
Once I traded in an F5 for a D100..
Can’t get any worse either…
Morning y’all from the City of Angels..:)
Portraits of scientists. Hear you David, something like that maybe:
http://www.magnumphotos.com/Archive/C.aspx?VP3=ViewBox_VPage&VBID=2K1HZS2K0762&IT=ZoomImage01_VForm&IID=2S5RYDTDC43&PN=7&CT=Search
Diana Price! Your motto….The soul made visible…. Wow!!!!
My site (one day, I promise): the visible….. Made soulful.
:-)
JIM…
of course i knew well you would hate this essay…and it is way over the top…but, it is an example of what some photographers are doing seriously and being taken very seriously by some venues as well….it deserves to be seen if not admired….it represents what is in the head of Mendelevich…for me the exploration is fascinating even if not perfect for my wall at home…
do not worry, something more to your liking is coming up soonest….i will continue to publish the traditional as well as the more on the “edge” material….there are a myriad of possibilities with what one can do with the camera…why not look at them all?? what is the downside of at least looking??
now Jim, you are predictable in your likes and dislikes…this is fine…but, are you not even the slightest bit piqued by how others may see their fellow man??
i think i know the answer….and believe it or not, i respect your point of view…that is why i am so so into working with you on a good solid down home essay from your community…i think your essay would also be on the “edge” in a very special way….let’s work on this…i promise to help you create an essay of which you and all of us will be very proud….and by sunday evening you will have a whole new more traditional essay up on Burn…
cheers, david
RAFAL…
i should not have lumped all American photography into one basket…my mistake….what i was talking to David Bacher about was the NPPA (Nat. Press Photogs Assoc) “brand” of photojournalism…..again, not a bad school of photography, but just a bit outdated and formulaic at this point…
cheers, david
David, I appreciate your generosity, but I really don’t want to do an essay.
David, a very big net comment, I admit, but I wonder if we do not make too much of what is traditional and non-traditional in photography. Somehow, for example, within one photo, one can discern traditional and non-traditional elements.
Maybe here, a new idea of a discussion you may want to start and have us discuss on BUZZ.
Jim
I would love to see your essay…and I think there are many here who will agree with me on this.
There are enough photographers here who want to do essays to waste space with those who don’t.
I really appreciate your comments DAH…I’ll be in touch via email next week just ahead of a trip to photograph Caribou and Gwitch’in people in Canada. I’ll be needing some editorial type photos for the people who are paying my flights, but I really want to try and veer off with some other kinds of photos that I got in Sweden of Sami and their reindeer.
btw….As I’m always behind, this has probably already been posted but if not, how about a theme song for “Burn”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=99CT3wQmiFU&feature=related
have a nice weekend all
VELIBOR: thanks thanks. i am enjoying the lazarus project.
Sorry to interfere: please secure your digital files…
http://www.PDNPulse.com/2009/07/oops-we-erased-the-moon-landing.html
Jim
waste space? are you sure you will be wasting space!? i am not that sure. i am also not that sure that everybody here wastes space. i don’t understand why it is so difficult to understand that everybody has a right to express (photographically) in his/her own way/vision…it is a different matter if we like some and dislike some – that’s a part of the deal always – isn’t it? it takes all sorts to make this world.
imho if your feelings are so strong about some of the recent ‘style’ of photography, why don’t you give the answer through your photos rather than your words/one-liners. it is always easy to dismiss somebody’s work with a dismissive word/gesture but history tells us that it takes a lot to show the way…
i am personally a “traditionalist” as far as photography is concerned but still David gave me the chance to do an essay under him – i never felt that he has any problem with “traditionalist” photography!
so if this opportunity has come in your way, i fail to understand why you refuse to do it? if it is for health or similar pressing reasons, then of course it is okay if you can’t do it, but if it is some other reason, then you can’t blame me from not taking your (valuable) inputs about works published here with a far lesser amount of seriousness!
the questions is “why not?”
now Jim, come on… we love you and we won’t let you that easy ;-)
Number 21 from the “Outside” essay also brings the old “Colon Blow” commercial from SNL (RIP Phil Hartman): http://www.hulu.com/watch/10304/saturday-night-live-colon-blow
correction:
now Jim, come on… we love you and we won’t let you go that easy ;-)
HERVE…
i think you are right…good point…there are many “traditional” elements even in what may be considered the more edgy work….i will make a post story as per your request right after my upcoming piece…
JIM…
your essay would be great….i would not take the time to work with you if i did not think it so….and Bodo hits the nail right on the head….
bodo, I don’t care how seriously you take my opinions. As I understand it, you don’t have to be a photographer at all to express opinions about the essays here. So, what does my photography matter?
DAVID BACHER…
funny you should link “Ring of Fire” …that song pops into my head all the time and is my favorite sing in the shower song….Johnny and Willie on it together just right….
there is no point in trying to reach me next week…i will be away from the net most of the time in Tuscany ….try from the 26th on please, otherwise your email will get buried….
good on you for keeping an open mind….i look forward to working with you more….
cheers, david
JIM…
your opinions and your photography are indeed separate….but, you do care about photography…you care about your community…you live in the classic Middle America….i think the only thing you ever hear me tell any photographer is to look in the mirror…i never try to change anyone…your views, your inspirations, your work are all rolled into who you are…i think you are authentic….authenticity is the hardest thing to come by these days…or , maybe it always was…your authenticity and yes , your innocence , will carry your essay into a wonderful space….i think you know very well i would not publish anything to embarrass you, poke fun at Middle America, or anything of the like…..you are a classic Jim….so, let’s celebrate classic….
cheers, david
But enough about me…
David, navy pilots just have a thing about getting a passenger sick. I did a cat and trap (aircraft carrier take-off and landing) as my first flight even before the Blues and my pilot said he just couldn’t help it. Remember now those guys are the ones driving us around on the airliner. Hmmmm.
Jay Maisel came out for a magazine story and I got to spend time with him and I ran into Dan Dry at the Naval Academy, but other than those guys it was just me and the small insignificant aircraft painted blue.
Many, many great times and memories. I glad you had the opportunity to catch a ride.
Jim, just do it.
-Paul
I don’t think I got the essay. It struck me almost as satire, but from the text, it wasn’t supposed to be, was it?
Jim
i don’t think i can allow myself the luxury of saying that i don’t care about you. and it is also not so surprising that you don’t care because i don’t have the standing that you have.
i do care about your comments because of your experience in this field and the job that you do…your opinions matter to me because you have survived so long in this field and i always make it point to read with apt attention what you and others like you write here since it has a direct bearing on the future course of my life and photography…so i hope it’s cool mate!
one of the unique advantages of burn is that David’s name and standing in the photography world draw many serious photography personalities here and i would be a fool if i say that i don’t care about what these people say!
regarding your question, “what does my photography matter?” – i say that had you been a car dealer or a florist or something having a mere cursory interest in photography, then i would not have placed as much importance to your comments as i do now. but since you are an editor and a long standing photographer yourself, your photography does matter…but alas! if you yourself don’t place any importance to your own photography, one fails to understand who else can!
anyway, no bitter feelings Jim! take it easy…
DAH,
back on the 12th, I got a response from Anton about my “Last Round” submission. The email requested that I send you the images for you to edit, and also included the guidelines that gave the option of submitting the whole essay as a soundslides show. Since I would like to include the interview portion of my project, that’s how I would to submit.
I have since sent a couple emails to Anton requesting what images you would recommend to edit from my story, but have yet to hear back. Possibly got shuttled into the spam folder?
Not trying to be a pest, just really excited about the project, and the possibility of being shown here.
It struck me almost as satire, but from the text, it wasn’t supposed to be, was it?…
Brian, it wasnt really… thats the irony about it…
it was meant to be “serious” but thats what makes it even funnier im afraid…
Funny as the movie Borat or Bruno…
As funny as the possibility of Sarah Palin for president…
( scary funny )…:))))))
DAH…
are there any news on the Burn Gallery front?
Did people know that Susan Meiselas teaches on this MA course in Holland?
http://www.postgraduate.leidenuniv.nl/programmes/ma_photographic.jsp
I’ve already done an MA in London, but this one looks good for others who are looking for one.
Why do I have to keep re-logging in here?
DAVID,
Just saw Debbie Caffrey at the Paul Fusco lecture.
I told her you asked about her and she said she “sends you a big ole’ hug.”
I took PAUL FUSCO and SUSAN MEISELAS notes and will post them asap.
Jim is it because you dont want to or are unable to do an essay?
Rafal, I have no interest in doing an essay for Burn. I’ve said that several times now.
THODORIS…ALL
there will be a new posting on the Burn gallery scene soonest…i think we will have gallery events for Burn photographers starting at the end of august…our biggest events will be in september and october…Mike Courvoisier is now running the Burn Gallery operation…we will have a new gallery page on Burn in about a week i think…at that time we will give you all the options available to you for the potential sales of your very best work..
BRIAN…
everything is just fine…it just takes some time…from the time you submit, until the time we publish there is some back and forth….i simply have not had a chance to edit your work yet…nor will i be able to get to it for another week or so…i think you might imagine your story would run in late august…in any case, we will give you ample advance notice…after i do your edit, i will contact you to make sure all looks fine for you…
many thanks for submitting your fine essay….
cheers, david
JIM…
i will take three “no’s” as NO…i am sure you would imagine i would give it my very best pitch to you…if you change your mind, i will be pleased to work with you….
Attention all Burnians!
This is totally random. Do you all know how exotic a “homegrown” tomato can be? My garden is busting with fresh, ripe tomatoes. I just cut one up and could not stand to to toss the butt end so I ate it like an apple. My gawd.
Civi, we can add fresh Georgia tomatoes to seasonal delights. Soon we’ll discuss Barbecue, BB-Q, Cue, Bubba Cue, the Taj Mahog et al.
Have a great weekend ya’ll
Paul
David, I appreciate it. Really.
David, the comment above is what puts you above reproach. A gentleman and…
Safe travels,
Paul
Walter Cronkite. A good humanist. Will be missed.
Think we’ll get days and days of ridiculous coverage… like MJ?
DAH – thanks, and have a safe journey.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kr4AI_3SIxk
wooden heart….
Late night show starts… now!
:)
now watch this.. please…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_cncEnlI9ZA&feature=related
The Duke Spirit – Will the Devil Dance
Seductress Of Bums ( Black & White )
@ J.VINK
http://www.apple.com/trailers/independent/julymoon/
Mazzy Star – Be My Angel
mazzy star – blue flower {live}
The Duke Spirit – Sovereign (Live at Monkey Chews)
Mazzy Star :: Into Dust
we all know the ATOMIC BOMB is very DANGEROUS…
Ladies and Gents…
The Mary Onettes …
Lost
BREAKING NEWS…
for all the LA BURNIANS…
SECRET BURN MEETING in the Salvadorian restaurant El Taurino…
( 1104 S Hoover st, LA )…in 20 MINUTES from now… around 11pm local time…
discussion: the future of Burn…
I will be meeting JARED & hopefully HAIK…
WE will discuss all the burning matters over POPUSAS and MICHELOB…
PLEASE FEEL FREE TO ATTEND…
( no camera or tuition fees required )…
:)))))
ok… then..
last song for tonight…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8A-cCNvJ1GI
Into the Fold- The Duke Spirit
peace and love….
from panos and the LATE NIGHT SHOW… asta la vista…
manana for more…
dont miss the tomorrows Late Show..
big hug
I had a photo teacher who said listening to music helps you get in the mood to take good photos.
It does seem to work…any of you warm up before a photo shoot with good tunes?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3JfSApP0JHQ&feature=channel
If you like this check out “Soul Brothers” and “Lucky Dube” who is unfortunately no longer around due to a tragic death a couple years ago.
ALL….
packing ( i swear i never get it right) and off to airport and flight to Rome…where i am staying in Tuscany, there is no internet (yes, yes there are such places)…i must go to the nearest town and do the internet cafe bit, so my presence here will be minimal throughout the week…i had hoped to get a new dialogue post written by this morning, but alas i will have to do it on the plane and get it out from the internet cafe perhaps in the next few days…the Burn essays for the week are done and will show up on schedule for you starting sunday evening….
if you have submitted photographs to Burn , please be patient…i see that submissions are way way up, so it is just going to take time to go through all of it…it is physically impossible for me to respond to everyone who submits (there are dozens every day), but i do always send a note to those who are chosen for publication within a couple of weeks…
for those of you who have been published, you know that submitting is only the first phase…re-sizing, captions, editing/sequencing , and fact checking research are all part of the process….please also know that i personally see every submission…i am now building a team of editors who will help me to pre-edit and organize, but no picture will go un-noticed and viewed as a publication possibility by me…
please enjoy your week and take a picture or two… i shall return soonest…
cheers, david
Enjoy Tuscany, David.
I miss the nice “monastic” life there.
Cheers,
Nacho
AKAKY: Reimar, don’t worry about the misspelling. I don’t care one way or the other and I’m sure IRL doesn’t care, either. Isn’t that right?
AKAKY IRL: That’s right, guy. I don’t give a hoot in hell one way or the other.
AKAKY: Excellent! See? We’re in 100% agreement here.
AKAKY IRL: Just as a matter of curiosity, what the hell are we talking about?
AKAKY: I have no damn clue. I suppose I could find out if I really wanted to.
AKAKY IRL: Do you really want to?
AKAKY: No.
AKAKY IRL: That’s what I thought. Then just smile and wave at the natives until we’re a safe distance away and then we’ll run for the exit as fast as we can.
AKAKY: Run? You’re a little hefty to be running anywhere, dude.
AKAKY IRL: You’re not exactly Lance Armstrong yourself, smart guy. Just do as I say and we’ll got out of this in one piece.
AKAKY: One piece of what? Blueberry pie?
AKAKY IRL: Look, do you want to get out of this or do you want to spend the rest of the day telling fat jokes? All the same to me, guy.
AKAKY: Let’s vamoose.
AKAKY IRL: Okay, just smile and wave and walk like you’ve got to go somewhere. Don’t run, but don’t stroll out either.
AKAKY: Isnt this what Clemenza tells Michael in The Godfather?
AKAKY IRL: I’m paraphrasing. Good advice is good advice, wherever it comes from.
AKAKY: I guess I should leave the gun and take the cannolis, shouldnt I?
AKAKY IRL: Stop being a pain in the ass, will you?
AKAKY: I’m sorry; it just comes naturally, I guess.
AKAKY IRL: Stop blaming nature for your faults. It makes you look like a whiner.
AKAKY: Sorry. You’re going to share the cannolis, right?
AKAKY IRL: No.
AKAKY: Not fair, dude.
AKAKY IRL: You want to make fat jokes at my expense then you gotta live with the consequences. Now just wave and smile and get us the hell out of here.
AKAKY: You really are a jerk sometimes.
AKAKY IRL: Tough shit, guy. Tell it to the chaplain.
Plenty of shots and essays to look at there, while David is in Tuscany and the site quieter:
http://courrierjp.com/120/eng/
(at the bottom, you can skip the long intro)
Kept feeling like Alexander’s opening image reminded me of something, and have figured it out..it’s Joe from the street. by Richard Boll, which won first prize (12,000pounds!) National Portrait Gallery in 2006..see http://www.hotshoeinternational.com/award_details.do?b=47
herve:
to follow up on your post:
1) you addressed me, not Sasha’s work, that is a shame, once again
2) i was NOT lecturing anyone, but offering a poignant of view, a way to deal with this essay that others did not offer. funny, many of the comments criticized and attacked the work, and when i offer a different perspective, a way that maybe some might think about as a way to see the work, you attack me: you are obnoxious.
3) I addressed the visual references that the pictures and essays evoked in me. Should i have disected the pictures specifically?…i loved the essay…i also addressed, for example, the brilliant photograph of the man with mirror shaving his back. you want more: ok, the cover image, i didnt love #4, and almost all the others i liked, not only for some of their theatrical imagery, but because they did remind me of moments from my entire life, especially with laughter and madness….your criticism of me is simply superifical and snarky…
4) i had a long talk with david yesterday about SPAM, and this was a solution for now (as u know he’s in flight): the ONLY reason i did, was to retrieve the spam, and this was a solution to the problem that both david and anton and i have tried to resolve with my comments going into spam….u have a problem, take it up with david: u r barking up the wrong tree.
5) that you continue to address me rather than the work is exactly the kind of ridiculousness that pervades: calling people names, arguing, demeaning, …there is some pretty ridiculous stuff of late
6) deal with the work, not me
7) leave me alone
8) goodbye
bob
I just wonder what a young photographer that has decided to do this kind of photography thinks about the future of his work. Where does he go from here? The photography is way post modern. But looking ahead to a 40 year career as a photographer, where does he think he can take this kind of photo? This is Art photography. But how much farther in this direction can you go?
It’s my usual rant that this kind of stuff will eventually make photography irrelevant to most people.
Hey Jim
As someone from your generation, and someone who has made a living with a camera for 38 years, I very much appreciate where you are coming from. My own personal stuff is pretty straight ahead, and my proffesional work is very traditional. You are certainly correct in assuming that few people make expect to make a living from “art” photography.
However since you have posed the question, I think we have to separate the commercial photography world from the “art” world. I don’t know how many people who are seriously doing “art” photography ever expect to make a living from it.
However the “art” world does influence what becomes commercially acceptable. The kind of images that appear editorially and in commercial applications are vastly different than ones we would have seen in the sixties. The photographs you see in wedding albums now are completely un-like the traditonal stuff of 20 years ago. The imagry is evolving, as are the tastes and the level of sophistication of the public.
I think it is crucial to keep an open mind, and eye, to what is happening out there. There is an explosion of amazing imagry out there. Half the guys working in my business 20 years ago have fallen by the wayside. 30 years ago a proffesional was a guy who’s pictures always “turned out”. Any idiot with a $99 point and shoot can get sharp well exposed photographs now. There has to be more.
Where will the future photographer make a living? Well, as far as numbers go, there never have been a lot of photographers making a living doing editorial work. (when I was teaching, and asked students what their goals were, usually about half the class planned to shoot for NatGeo) yah, right. There are still a lot of commercial shooters are still out there getting big bucks. The portrait business is still,by a huge margin, the segment that supports the largest number of photographers.
Unless this is just a hobby folks, it does come down to money, and what kind of photographs people will actually pay for.
Well, I’m a working photographer and have never wanted to do anything else, so I look at photography from that bias. So I see where galleries are closing their doors and cutting their exhibitions all over the world as money is drying up in the art biz and I just wonder what these folks are going to do. Perhaps they are just dabbling in photography for awhile and will move on when that gets boring. I don’t know. I have a hard time thinking that way because I never wanted to do anything but photography.
“Emerging” photographers surely have a challenge in front of them.
Jim,
how do you think you have evolved over your career? Has your p[hotography gone through significant changes? From what I read in your posts I doubt you have. Having seen your photos, I doubt you have gone through significant exploration to have evolved past the typical newspaper stuff. I will agree with you, emerging photographers do have a challenge in front of them, but the challenge is more to do with staying true to yourself, being original. Money? Sure money can be a challenge but who says one must be making all their money from photography to be serious about it? You seem to think those who aren’t making $$$ from photography are just dabbling, playing, not serious. What utter BULLSHIT, condescending, stupid thing to say Jim. Personally I dont see myself being a working pro like you. I have no interest in shooting accidents, weddings, home comings and Indians at a fair. That does not mean I dont have passion in shooting what I want. Will I make money from it? Who gives a fuck? Being free to shoot what I want without having to deal with editors like YOU is heaven for me. For money Im in the process of getting an MBA. My photography will be 100% in my hands.
Of course photography is viable as a sideline. I don’t argue that. But photographers like DAH didn’t get where they are treating photography as a sideline. But if you can achieve what you want with your photography while working as an MBA, that’s great.
“as an MBA” = “in the financial world.”
I hate you can’t edit posts here.
Jim, a fair amount of your so called “art photographers” are products of fine art schools and landed into photography because either it was a great vehicle of communication, the need to document of of other forms of artwork or the photographed image weaved it’s way into their work etc.
Many of these people know that they will most likely have to supplement their income otherwise, some find alternative employment and are lost to the artworld, some head off to the commercial world or PJ work, others just stay and are willing to have a much reduced income.
Personally {though the paper says I am a sculptor} I divided most of my time between, tree surgery, stonemasonary and teaching, all out of choice. My foray in the commercial world was short lived as it just bored me. I also fund and curate my own shows but I placed myself in a position where it was possible.
Jim for those that do not want need a single profession there are a variety of ways of travelling. Some feel the variety of experience is beneficial to their photographic work others find it frustrating that they cannot devote enough time to their work. Others just party too much…… as one gets older that need dissipates.
Then there is the group that spend too much time on the wonderful world of the www which makes inroads into their creative time.
Ah today for me, weeds in the garden await their new life as compost…………
Rafal,
I have found amazing passion here on Burn and you possess it. When I first “found” photography, I just had to do it. Perhaps if I had found another career, it would be all passion as I sense it is for you.
I do this for a living and I find time for “my” stuff. Fortunately, I get a lot of joy from my work and so do my clients. I’m not making the strong statement images like many of the submissions I have seen here. It doesn’t matter. Just as you have relayed to Jim, it’s all about the image and that is why I look at this work and participate here..
You get your batteries charged by looking and talking about photography on Burn. I think the same is true for Jim. You all just apply the lessons in a different way.
It would be great if we all took away the same things from images we see here. It just ain’t gonna happen. Photographers are notoriously independent thinkers and gawd help us, opinionated. Truthfully, I find hanging around other photographers a real pain in the ass if we don’t have similar taste or views.
I got pissed at Jim and then realized that I need to give him space and not go down his road. He just expresses himself in I way I could not. The price of admission to Burn is to try to make nice with strangers. Some of us do it better than others.
just back from shooting, from the moment the light went sweet this afternoon to the 1/8 of a second exposures..right now i wish we could all sit down together and talk about the splendors of the process, i feel like celebrating the medium with others who care and get it. here online, i’m torn between holding my words and exploding into them, i want to share the highs of my path like a soundwave that ripples out and hits you in a way that i have often wanted to be reached when i wasn’t in this creative space but i wonder if too much of it would be lost..it’s like a secret being whispered, but my understandings are at the moment inadequately worded, still i wonder if they could reach you like a little clue or hint about a mystery that someone must have just whispered into my ear. the closest I can say that will make any sense is commit yourself fully to your project, stick it out, become as honest and present as you are able..believe in what you are trying to do and do it..
thanks all for being here
Am I late???
I got internet conx…I am the happiest civilian alive!!!
MR.HARVEY, of course, he is on the road again, drinking red wine and shooting Italians…
WHAT NOT TO LOVE!!!
please, BURNIANS, let’s focus and send some good energy towards Italy…VIVA.
EMCD…well done as always…keep rolling!!!
POMARA…my Georgia man, love the BB-Q CUE sauce…I am drooling…keep it BURNing.
ATTN:
EVA, baby EVA, i didn’t have internet…but if you read this posting:
1) don’t take taxi often
2)avoid to buy bottled water from the”street” …it costs 8euros…buy only from the local markets.
3)when you are in Thessaloniki,you have to try the peinirli from the locals( amazing)
4) eat as many giros and souvlakia possible
5)smile to the Greeks and if you need help ask the young people(almost all the kids are speaking English)
6)flirt till you die and easy with the ouzo…I mean it…
ENJOY…next time…your stay on me…LOVE
Dearest OUR PATRICIA,
What can I say…
WE BELIEVE IN YOU…
Did you say film???
YOU deserve it…books, films,red carpets…VIVA…
white eagle is rocking…
love
KATHLEEN FONSECA,
I am here with My Gracie eating Barbeque with pomara waiting for DavidB to get ready and Panos is on the menu with the LATE night SHOW…other BURNIANS are here,
Mr.Gordons mom may join, Herve is around with his bike,
Reimar is drinking wine next to our mill,
BoBB is writing,
Akaky has no clue what I am talking about,
Jim doesn’t want to submit,
Imants is talking about weeds,
David Bacher loves music, Rafal has passion, Vivek is sending messages to J.Vink…I can’t follow to much …I am loosing signal…LOVE BURNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN
Yeah…you don’t check in for a day or so and it’s hell catching up!
It’s after midnight here and I just got home from another of Detroit’s fabulous free music festivals, this one being the Concert of Colors, the 17th annual celebration of our city’s rich cultural and ethnic diversity. Due to the economy–as you can imagine, Detroit is hurting big time–the performers this year were all Detroit-based or Detroit-born. But we still had sounds that came from the Middle East, Africa, China, Hawaii, Ireland, India and genres ranging from latin funk to R&B to Motown to reggae to alternative rock to folk and more. I took photos, yes, but danced way more than I snapped. I also saw and greeted lots of great folks whom I see every year a these festivals.
The reason I bring all this up is that I just read today’s comments on Alexander’s essay and here on Buzz. A few made me want to respond in a somewhat testy way, but after a day of experiencing the beauty of our diversity, I’m going to hold my tongue. We each see things differently because we ARE different. And sometimes we can forget that our differences are to be expected and even celebrated.
So I wish each one of you well and offer gratitude that we live in this web world where we are free to express ourselves without fear of arrest or worse. Not everyone in today’s world is as fortunate as we. Let the dissention continue: it is what makes our lives interesting. But may we try to disagree in a respectful manner. I know I have fallen down on this myself in the past but I’m going to do my best to show more restraint in the future.
And now to bed. Tomorrow is another day for celebrating the wonder of our “otherness.” I really love Detroit.
Patricia
free music is the best music..
ahhhh yes.
sunday, sunday.. chipping away .. editing.. planning.. comming down.. mountains.. boats.. home.. pixels.. extended family.. peeling skin.. sore head.. brandy.. echos of music..
and on.. going to tuck into discussions again son, when i catch up with the stories, trials and tribulations.
Bluegrass and Barbecue was the theme yesterday, with an emphasis on eating, I think! Lots of folks seem more interested in the food than the music though. You can keep the Barbecue, but I love Bluegrass and the interesting people. ;)
http://www.39thframe.com/streeteats.jpg
Sometimes you see a picture you just have to take. This is what I saw as I got ready to go on the expressway yesterday. A sign of the times…
Patricia
Here’s the link:
http://www.pbase.com/windchimewalker/image/115130396
Every time I see some poll hailing Detroit as “the worst city in the US” I just think, “that’s okay, we’ll keep it our little secret.”
I can think of no other city I’ve been in or lived in (of which there are many) that has moved me like Detroit. And particular, the fierce loyalty and toughness of her people.
I primarily moved there for cheap housing/studio space, a thriving underground music scene, and the fact most of my travel jobs are in Michigan and I wanted to be close enough to go home on weekends (yes, I CHOSE to move to Detroit.) Falling in love with the city sort of blindsided me.
Diana, Detroit does that. The people in this city are among the finest on the planet, in my opinion. I spent time living in San Francisco during the late 90s and early 2000s, but, beautiful and exciting as it was, it never seemed real. Now, Detroit is definitely REAL, in the best sense of the word.
Looking forward to our getting together when you get back home.
Patricia
ALL,
I have a question.
What is your most most favorite picture ever???
Let say three most favorites.
here is my:
1. Sam abell http://digitaljournalist.org/issue0206/images/sa_fisherman.jpg
2 Gueorgui Pinkhassov http://www.magnumphotos.com/CorexDoc/MAG/Media/TR3/F/W/I/B/PAR93476.jpg
3. The whole rest.
And yours??? … I am curious…
:)
Panos, surprised you didn’t post Mazzy Star’s “Fade Into You”. One of my all-time favorites
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XucegAHZojc&client=mv-google&gl=US&hl=en
All this talk about music..after shooting last night I went to see King Sunny Ade. Can’t wake up today. Good think I like to shoot after 3 pm :)
Curious, has anyone here read Visual Thinking by Rudolf Arnheim?
Yes, sorry Bob, I do not like pompous shit …. Stop lecturing us, as you do all the time, like you are on a higher heap of shit than us and you “KNOW”, and I will be totally out of your radar.
I won’t get into personal stuff, but personally I prefer to be ridiculous in virtual spaces than in real life….
“I do not like pompous shit …”
But rude and arrogant is okay? Sorry Herve but you often rub me every bit the wrong way that apparently Bob does you and now … I just descended. See, focusing on personalities instead of work is silly, unenlightened and only serves to pull everything down. My apologies.
King Sunny Ade! hadn’t heard him since college – wow….
Trying to catch up after attempting to cram a week of work and a week of fun/shooting into the 5 days I was in New York….more soonest….but just wanted to say hello and a shout out to the photogs I met while in the city who read and sometimes post here – you know who you are- was great chatting with you next to the pool table and over drinks…
good light, all.
a.
Oh, one other thing….a quick plug…I attended the book launch and multimedia premier of Ed Kashi’s “Three” at Powerhouse books in DUMBO….the event was great, Powerhouse books is a super place to visit if you’re in the area.
Hearing him talk about the book and multimedia project certainly made it more meaningful, but even seeing the MM piece projected before any discussion, I found it quite powerful….
You can now see it here….
http://edkashi.com/three.php
a.
Tooooom…whats up…
nice photofriday photo… the other day..
the underwater… post it here too… please…
its so hot in LA…:(
Brian…
i hear u… more mazzy tomorrow night..
we are not open on the weekends… sorry
no Late show tonight…:))))))
It is always interesting to discover what others in here think is “bold and original” work.
And I will TRY to offer a perspective into which people can ‘view/see’ this essay and maybe re-appraise their thoughts.
My god, what a remarkably pretentious and pompous thing to say.
But hey, Bob… at least you are original enough not to use “derivative” in your critiques! I thought we banned that lazy and tired word here anyway. ;^}
Michael K….if your comment is in reference to my post above, I should clarify that I don’t find the Kashi work “bold and original”, after all, they are images from his body of work over the years…although I found his conceptual approach of wanting to try and not tell a straight, linear PJ type story, to decontextualize some of the images by placing them with others in the triptychs as a very interesting…and the mm piece certainly kept my attention and kept me thinking about the images in ways that single images likely would not have….
a.
Sorry andrew… not you I was referencing. I like Kashi.
Panos, submitted that photo to the burn stash, we’ll see what the editor says … hey, I’m just a working stiff here.
The Kashi MM piece is excellent! Thanks for posting that link.
herve/michael:
well that the 2 of you have read my post as some kind of pompous, lecturing comment is your perogative.. though it’s intent was from that as possible, but instead to offer a perspective that was different from the readings of others, but this is neither here nor there:
from the beginning that you appeared at Road Trips Herve, you have continued to attack me and what i write, conjecturing some absurd inclination about me that im a lecturing, pompous person, and you continue to confuse a written critique for some kind of attack. I never called anyone a lemming, nor a hypocrite, and yet when i am asked personally by an author to contribute a positive post offering a different perspective, one that might have a different operating perspective, that get’s ridiculed….
but it doesn’t matter.
i have officially told david and anton that i’ve resigned and will no longer contribute to conversations here, nor to comment (with the exception of one last essay coming up and to supply an essay for a photographer whose book will be published in september)….it’s remarkable to me how far afield the 2 of you have read my comment and bullied your way to the throne…
but, you’ve accomplished your wish:
you shall not be burdened by anything i write any longer at burn….
it’s now official…
and now, this isn’t a ‘threat’, but as another magnum photographer wrote me this morning:
“bob, what are you doing remaining among such misguided negativity”
i’ve taken his and marina and other friends advice…
all the best to you
respectuflly
bob
typo
“though it’s intent was AS FAR from that as possible, but instead to offer a perspective that was different from the readings of others, but this is neither here nor there:
“I met a traveller from an antique land
Who said: “Two vast and trunkless legs of stone
Stand in the desert. Near them on the sand,
Half sunk, a shattered visage lies, whose frown
And wrinkled lip and sneer of cold command
Tell that its sculptor well those passions read
Which yet survive, stamped on these lifeless things,
The hand that mocked them and the heart that fed.
And on the pedestal these words appear:
`My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye mighty, and despair!’
Nothing beside remains. Round the decay
Of that colossal wreck, boundless and bare,
The lone and level sands stretch far away”.”
Percy Bysshe Shelley
Bob Black..I haven´t followed the discussion here, but I just wanted to say thank you for the very nice comment to my essay. It meant a lot to me, and I like how you express your thougts! I guess many of the other contributors would agree. So if you ask me…then you should not leave:)))
Cheers, Andrea
Bob,
Don’t go. Herve go.
You’ve let this get to you in the wrong way and I am sad. I never considered this a dysfunctional place. It just has a few dysfunctional contributors. Perhaps a hiatus?
Sincerely, Paul
but, you’ve accomplished your wish: you shall not be burdened by anything i write any longer at burn….
Wish? Whose “wish”? Did Herve say he wished you gone? I certainly never have. This is unbecoming of you Bob. This is a place for discussion. Conversation. Sometimes they get personal. DAH himself has remarked about how he views this place as a gathering of his “family”…. there are occasional disputes, arguments, peace and love as well…
Leave, don’t leave. Whatever. But don’t go with some grand above it all bullshit notion about what this place is and who belongs or doesn’t belong here. You and your Magnum photographer friend need to lighten up…. it seems to me.
I could be wrong, though.
–“There’s a paradox in pride… it makes some men ridiculous, but prevents others from becoming so.”–
BEAUTIFUL DAY !!! TODAY, NOBODY LEAVES BURN…NOBODY
BURNIANS life is full of surprises…
BOBB,editor at large, BURN is in your heart, we can feel it.
Please, drink with me a glass of wine…it’s on the house!!!
HERVE, you bring a cup of Thai tea with some brides and come over to join…
MichaelK…peace and love to YOU too…
Viva DETROIT!!!
TOMHYDE …will bring mythos BEER and POMARA the BBQ…
ANDREWB…I Love KASHI…I love it
I am looking for my Identidy inside and outside the ring of my History Body !!!
P.S JIM, I love that side of you…Ozymandia…where is my late night show…
I LOVE YOU ALLLLLL
I need a Mythos … and I’ll bring the local Fish Tale Organic Wild Salmon Pale Ale …
Civilian! You… YOU are real. I love that.
Marcin…
Too difficult to pick favorite 3 pics. But I was pleased to see you picked two of my fave photogs! Love Abell and Pinkhassov!
But OK here are three images I think about often:
http://www.darktopography.com/images/abell/abell_p011.jpg
http://images.artnet.com/artwork_images_113308_124987_james-nachtwey.jpg
and the third… I cannot find on the web anywhere! Damn! It’s Bill Allard’s slaughterhouse in Peru. The shot is of a cow that has just been slaughtered and it is all twisted and as he says Picasso-esque. Very haunting. If anyone can find it please do post it.
Cheers.
Because Burn allows for online conversations with no visual clues, ie., no body language or tone of voice, it’s all too easy to misread, take offense at, or otherwise not get what another is trying to say. Or maybe you DO get it and find someone’s words totally turn you off, get your goat or otherwise push your buttons. This can happen in non-virtual situations too but at least there one is less likely to openly attack, insult or “dis” the other. On any online forum it is too easy to say things you’d never dare say to someone’s face. And it can be really hard to work through disagreements online. As DAH often says, “if only we could just go out for a cold one.”
So we’ve got a personality conflict or two going on here. The sad thing is you don’t really know each other; you just think you do. It’s hard to do but could you fellows just step back and stop posting any comments at all regarding the other? Our friend Joe has managed to do just that. He has totally stopped getting “into it” anymore with the person who was pushing his buttons. It takes maturity and restraint to do that, but it’s not impossible. Ask Joe.
We need you all–Bob B, Herve and Michael K. Each of you sees things in a unique way, a way that adds to the conversation, that more importantly adds to the community. Please stick around, but please stop initiating and/or responding to personal attacks and insults. If need be, could you take such comments off Burn and communicate by email instead? Or better yet, just ignore them. Tit-for-tats need at least two to play. If one refuses, the game stops.
By the way, I know whereof I speak as I’ve also felt the tang of personal attacks here on Burn and Road Trips before that. Yes, it hurt. And occasionally I’ve taken some time away. But, dammit, no one is going to shove me off Burn until I’m good and ready to go. I have my place at the table just as much as anyone else. And that’s true for everyone here.
Maybe it’s time to scroll up to DAH’s introduction to this thread. In it he says:
“i want us to be on the high ground…as sponsors now view us, each person here is personally responsible for our move into a whole new world of publishing….what you now write is read by many in our craft and in our art…your words are now more than ever IMPORTANT….as you hold me to my responsibilities, i will hold you to yours…..
“think before you write and write exactly as you think…”
peace
Patricia
P.S. I’ll probably get hammered for this comment too. So be it…
“
Hey Patricia,
I take very little issue with what you say. I am in general agreement. But you do say this: It’s hard to do but could you fellows just step back and stop posting any comments at all regarding the other? Our friend Joe has managed to do just that. He has totally stopped getting “into it” anymore with the person who was pushing his buttons. It takes maturity and restraint to do that, but it’s not impossible. Ask Joe.
Joe and Bob may not have addressed a specific person in their comments, but they did address “others.” Bob thinks he needs to teach others how to see the work presented. Joe thinks that if you didn’t like the Outside essay you were a lemming, derivative, boring etc. Let’s not pretend they are above it all. Passive-aggressive BS like that might just get a few comments here and there.
Herve and Michael, do both of you have a problem with David or you just dislike him? Obviously there is some problem there as you both are quite happy to drag conversations to gutter level.
This mud slinging only affects people like Bob etc in a minor way but it does effectively lower burn’s and David’s standing in the community.
As for my difference of opinion with David all solved in a couple of emails and the problem there is just a site structure one.
Imants… what are you talking about? Where did I drag the conversation to the gutter?
You and your personal vendettas, be a photographer and leave your ego at home. If you cannot see the damage you do on the site, that in itself is sad. At least both David, figured it was going nowhere and damaging and I stopped the interaction to solved it via email, you just go on and on and on and on……………
should be ………David and I
Once again… what specifically did I say that dragged the conversation into the gutter?
And I have no vendettas… personal or otherwise.
It’s your vendetta like attitude and you just can’t see it and therein lies the problem. I will not keep going as you are the on and on and on type of poster bye!
Patricia, blogs are what they are. It’s why a forum here is probably not a good idea with David’s goals for this magazine. But David seems committed to this format. So be it.
Jim..:)
thats why the name “BURN” and not “BANDAGES”….
laughing…
and you “contributed” and “fueled” pages and pages on this
“weird” magazine…
thanks for all your contributions…
(… what would we do without Burn’s permission to let it out and freely express ourselves…
anyway we could… words , music, photos…)
The “audience” participates and creates… one day you are the author the very next you are the head of the “audience”…
So again.. thats the deal im afraid until the name changes to “Bandages”…or “First Aid”..
Your actions ( writing on Burn tons of comments ) and your words ( close all comments ), dont much…
but… i enjoy the “kaka” out of you… please keep writing..
you are my favorite writer here ( after Akaky of course…:))))))))))
big hug
thats why the name “BURN” and not “BANDAGES”….
I fucking love that! ;^}
i love what Gordon said here:
“However the “art” world does influence what becomes commercially acceptable. The kind of images that appear editorially and in commercial applications are vastly different than ones we would have seen in the sixties. The photographs you see in wedding albums now are completely un-like the traditonal stuff of 20 years ago. The imagery is evolving, as are the tastes and the level of sophistication of the public.
I think it is crucial to keep an open mind, and eye, to what is happening out there. There is an explosion of amazing imagery out there. Half the guys working in my business 20 years ago have fallen by the wayside. 30 years ago a professional was a guy who’s pictures always “turned out”. Any idiot with a $99 point and shoot can get sharp well exposed photographs now. There has to be more.”
if you ever visit Borders and browse the magazine rack it’s impossible to think that the demand for talented artistic photographers is waning. Just the opposite, there’s a waterfall of artistic images pouring off those shelves and once in a while i wonder what the photography budget might be to produce one month of images that are sitting in that Border’s rack at that point in time.
i don’t know how many wedding photographers there are in the audience, more specifically ones that have actually taken a wedding commission all the way to the point of album construction to the degree of sophistication like Loxley or other industry leaders, but i’m certain they will vouch that evolving artistic photography is alive and well in the wedding photography world and those same photographers will vouch for artistic photography in the family photography business as well, they might vouch that it’s evolving influence came from what the customers saw first in the magazine racks (not galleries), it’s like a current of demand that seems to start at the magazine rack, but is that the ultimate source? i don’t think so.
yes, i suppose art galleries for photography are shutting down, but i don’t think that has any real impact on the demand for the work that would end up there, i wonder if it really did actually. i think the work that would end up in art galleries is still being produced, but is now just carried into agencies to evidence talent rather than exhibited (or maybe exhibited ‘at’ agencies like Ben Robert’s artistic work)
and here lies the irony and likely some evidence of how polarised Burn’s audience is to editorial work. The biggest monster to editorial work is non-editorial work. It’s the well crafted images of the commercial world that render traditional photojournalism so unimaginative and so ‘samey‘. The competition of traditional editorial work is the imagery that we get soaking wet with while walking to work. It’s the billboards and the signs and it’s in the papers and magazines we read. It’s taunting us with the appliances we should buy, the cars we should drive and somehow even the music we should listen to. And in almost every instance the photography is born out of artistic intentions.
i guess that’s my point: questions get raised quite a bit about the economic value of exploring artistic photography, they get asked because art galleries are closing and the images ‘don’t tell us anything’ or they are ‘not accessible’ but imagine the irony in that? Artistic photographers have the most access to highest paying commissions and the best artistic photographers are inadvertently part of the buying decisions we make every day. Is there really a question as to why someone would pursue artistic photography?
of course some will never try to monetise their artistic talent, but i’m certain that the one’s that have successfully monetised their talent didn’t show up to an agency with just ‘competent’ photography, it had to be something that differentiated themselves from the pack.
Joe, there may be a lot of advertising photography on those news stands, but the day rates have plummeted. And the opportunities have narrowed. There are adequate photographers willing to work for peanuts these days. And adequate is good enough in the new world of “professional” photography.
“Artistic photographers have the most access to highest paying commissions and the best artistic photographers are inadvertently part of the buying decisions we make every day. Is there really a question as to why someone would pursue artistic photography?”
I’m sure there are many “Art” photographers who would disagree with you! If you are not in the center of the art world, doing the latest “in” art, you don’t exist.
Hey Joe,
In the Outside essay thread you chose to talk about people’s responses more than the essay or the photographer. People who enjoyed it were difficult to describe, maybe a little weird… which of course is always cool if you’re going to be into “art” photography. Contrasted by those who did not find it all that interesting and therefore are boring lemmings who produce derivative work.
What was the thinking there? What was your purpose?
Hi Michael,
What was the thinking? What was the purpose?
My Thinking Was: this is a funny, playful, cringe worthy piece of work that isn’t the best effort at this kind of invocation i’ve ever seen, but the best effort for this kind of visual invocation i’ve seen on Burn. This work tickled me because i’m human, not because i’m a photographer. i thought why the heck did everyone reject this piece so much? It suddenly became a puzzle to me. Since i’m not into art photography i didn’t think it was purely personal preference. Unfortunately i didn’t clinically arrive at a perfect answer to the puzzle, only a suspicion.
My Purpose Was: To best describe my ‘audience’ suspicion as clinically as possible, basically state that anyone that doesn’t like this work even a little is a loser.
as for the words i used: derivative, boring, lemmings; well they were the most condemning words that came to mind, but still seemed applicable at the time of typing.
Subsequent Thinking: after forming that opinion and noticing Jared disagreed with it i broke my own rule and read the artist statement and part of the puzzle became clear at least to me. When i viewed the essay ‘without’ reading the intro i thought ‘hey!’ here’s a person that clearly doesn’t take themselves too seriously, here’s someone that can conjure And compose all these cringe worthy playful scenarios because they ‘know’ playful provoking body language, and i still think the rendering is very competent for the subject. As a photographer i thought this guy can work with people, anyone that’s tried to ‘produce’ a set of looks like this knows it’s not as easy as it looks; even with a single model, let alone a collection of them, and i wonder if these were even professional models. i suddenly wanted to meet this Alexander, buy him a drink, buy the book or magazine that these images ended up in, again it was refreshing and entertaining and I would like to have an easy way to look at these images again to get tickled by them again, ideally in print. By the way i have (and love) Ballen’s books and they don’t tickle me, they haunt me, i’m glad to see Imants throw up the reference, but I’d love if Imants could offer some more corroboration on the link between the two, I’m sure it would make for a good discussion in it’s own rite.
but then i read the introduction and the introduction totally kills that enjoyable reality for me. Matter of fact, i’m certain i would not have viewed the images if i read the introduction and if i did view the images only after that introduction i would say exactly what Ben Roberts said as i would have felt cheated, swindled, and bitter because of it. Nobody likes someone that tries to be someone they are not, and this goes for their work. This work does not seem to resemble that lofty introduction and that to me is what cascades through the comments more than the fact that the work does not have stand-alone visual merit.
for the love of Gawd, can someone create the definitive guidebook to artistic visual introductions? If it’s good you will become an overnight millionaire as i’ve not read one yet that propped the work; saved it maybe (the pretend Russian), but extended it: Never!
so puzzle solved at least for me, and now i adjust my sentiment, anyone that didn’t ever read the introduction and still didn’t like this work even a little is a loser.
as far as the merit of these images, i still think if Alexander deletes that intro and never brings it up again and walks into an agent with those images in his portfolio, he stands a good chance and getting commercial work. My previous post was pretty much all about that and the merit of exploring work like Alexander’s.
As far as needing to be in the centre of the art world to make money, I don’t agree. I suspect you only need to first be competent and then be very original and then be very appealing to work with, as there are already loads of competent photographers out there. Here’s an interesting article related to this: http://bit.ly/39QIu
Joe..
you’ve got me confused..sarcasm has never been something I understand..
“My Purpose Was: To best describe my ‘audience’ suspicion as clinically as possible, basically state that anyone that doesn’t like this work even a little is a loser.
as for the words i used: derivative, boring, lemmings; well they were the most condemning words that came to mind, but still seemed applicable at the time of typing.”
are you serious? or being sarcastic?
If you are serious, with a mind like yours, why would your purpose be to state in the most condemning words at the ready that anyone who didn’t like it was a loser, etc?
What do you mean by that? Seriously, i don’t get it. How can someone be a loser for not liking something?
Granted, someone could be perceived as a bit daft (tho that wouldn’t be a kind assessment) for not understanding something, but a loser because of personal taste? fill me in..
this is interesting:
http://bit.ly/3jRfH
first the images and now even the words are expected to be set ‘free’
these Kindles really fascinate me; i had dinner in the States last week with a friend and his 14 year old daughter. His daughter mentioned that the school had created policy exceptions specifically permitting these devices to be used in the classroom as the schools see them as educational and the future of accessing anything that was previously offered in a text book. Based on the linked article it seems these devices have the real muscle in the hardware / non-hardware value equation, but time will tell if that’s true, but it smells like another Microsoft monopoly.
that being said i started to think about this evolving into the next ‘artefact’ that would pass the Starbucks test. You know the one, it’s where you could walk into Starbucks and just chill out in a leather couch the way you ‘can’t’ with a laptop but ‘can’ with a paper, magazine or book. Then i really started thinking: imagine if these became so prevalent and evolved in such a way that our cameras came automatically calibrated for a Kindle screen :-) imagine if there was no longer any real need for 300 dpi except for really exotic work like billboards, anything on the kindle screen would be sufficient with 72dpi.
i think i’ll stop thinking there, but this was surely a long time coming if it’s really here and a space not really filled by the laptop or the iphone. It also makes me wonder how we will consume both text and images in the years to come.
I’ll leave you with this:
http://www.MagazineDeathPool.com
Erica, in the spectrum of communication:
Serious, Sarcastic, Absurd.
this is interesting:
http://bit.ly/3jRfH
first the images and now even the words are expected to be set ‘free’
these Kindles really fascinate me; i had dinner in the States last week with a friend and his 14 year old daughter. His daughter mentioned that the school had created policy exceptions specifically permitting these devices to be used in the classroom as the schools see them as educational and the future of accessing anything that was previously offered in a text book. Based on the linked article it seems these devices have the real muscle in the hardware / non-hardware value equation, but time will tell if that’s true, but it smells like another Microsoft monopoly.
that being said i started to think about this evolving into the next ‘artefact’ that would pass the Starbucks test. You know the one, it’s where you could walk into Starbucks and just chill out in a leather couch the way you ‘can’t’ with a laptop but ‘can’ with a paper, magazine or book. Then i really started thinking: imagine if these became so prevalent and evolved in such a way that our cameras came automatically calibrated for a Kindle screen :-) imagine if there was no longer any real need for 300 dpi except for really exotic work like billboards, anything on the kindle screen would be sufficient with 72dpi.
i think i’ll stop thinking there, but this was surely a long time coming if it’s really here and a space not really filled by the laptop or the iphone. It also makes me wonder how we will consume both text and images in the years to come.
Erica, in the spectrum of communication:
Serious, Sarcastic, Absurd
The last word:
http://www.MagazineDeathPool.com
I like vendettas, I like the arguments and the personal attacks …
cause without those BURN will be so a tedious place to be…
Yes, I wrote that…your Civilian…blame the wine… ( HI JOE)
BUT…
RESPECT is my main, ultimate goal…
For those who English is your first language…you can go ahead and express yourselves
for the rest of us…we can only hope…and keep reading:)))
RESPECT and LOVE is always on the menu
of course some ouzo…and today we are eating Wild Salmon:)))
Now Hammer me…hihihi…BURNIANS keep rocking…ALL OF YOUUUUUUUUUUU…
JOIN us…and my favorite 3 photos are:
BURN GALLERY
BURN SELECTED PHOTOS
BURN ESSAYS…PEACE
@Joe–
Ah… now I get your act.
Well I’m still confused.
Erica, check your email. Info on the lens.
ALL!!!
Good News!!! I’m the proud owner of a nikon d700 now! yahoooooooooooo :-)
here is one of the photos from my first day’s test drive…
http://www.trekearth.com/gallery/photo1102868.htm
Bodo,
Good for you my friend. Very nice test drive. D700 is very nice camera in your hands will be great tool. I should buy one with 35mm f2. Maybe in future. But d700 is still too big for me. I try convince myself to digital pgotography but dslr are so big cameras. Right now I work with my m6. B&W street photography. My d200 have day off.
small quite fast.
:)
jim – thank you
bodo – lovely!
marcin – the girl on the train photo is at the top of my list..postcard of it pinned up on my photo board..something so stunning about it. I often wander to the last train to see if the shot is there, never is..
Erica
I could look at tins photo a milion times. Still not enought.
Marcin
Thank a lot friend! Let me see if I live up to it or not! I am loving digital very much, it has cut short time I had to spend on many things when I was in film. For b&w, I personally feel film is still way better…best wishes for you…
Erica
Many thanks…
Viva BODO
Viva JIM
Viva MARCIN
Viva MICHAELK
VIVA D700,D200,BMX,AC/DC,whatever you call it…VIVA
Bodo..:
congrats once again..
and because i love BobB… and Michael K.
i think i should admit at least Michael’s love and respect towards Bob…
I do personally met Michael and although we were fighting like the worst
enemies back on “Roadtrips”…after our 3rd beer we became brothers…
was it only the beer?
hmmm, i dont think so………..
Anyways… few months later i met Bob…
heavily educated brain with the vision of Pazollini…
a main philosopher of Burn…
if they could only share a beer those two great friends…
And look whos talking… “The Angry Teenager…” as
Herve…said…
And Herve ia … i dont know… He is funny… Inspector Clouseau… or whatever..
Again.. when u get to know the people in person…
then its kinda hard to get “angry”…
Seriously thats all it takes… a corona or two…
and then we are good loving people again…
:))))))))
Uhhhm, that’s okay Erica I’m always confused … although perhaps Joe was attempting to be as absurd in his response to the essay as the essay itself, or just offensive, or satirically derivative … which is in itself a satirically derivative phrase. My head hurts. Back to work.
VIVA PANOS…you definitely sound like me, the Civilian…way to go mate!!!
VIVA TOM HYDE…your head hurts?take an aspirin or two…in our age, we should take it easy…
Niaahhh….
laughing historically
dear BODO,
is that true???
MUMBAI (AFP) – Indian astrologers are predicting violence and turmoil across the world as a result of this week’s total solar eclipse, which the superstitious and religious view as a sign of potential doom.
Shall I start drinking before it’s too late???
Civi
:)
every time there’s these solar eclipses, these astrologers make a hue and cry here…
yep…start drinking…i personally drink only on two occasions, when it rains, and when it does not rain…
when it rains, we call it ‘excise weather’ (excise department puts taxes on booze)…yet to find what should we call the weather when it does not rain…any suggestion? :)
but i am crying too, the next solar eclipse here is after 125 years (i think i can live these few years!) and in india, it can be seen mostly in the northern part…i wanted to go to varanasi in north india to take photographs in case i don’t like to live these 125 years but couldn’t go because of work :xxx!
BODO…you rock!!!
xxx
No suggestions, You president…you got the answers …
WHAT NOT TO LOVE.
the next solar eclipse here is after 125 years (i think i can live these few years!)
…????
well, me 2 then…
and the best way to reach a goal is to set one…:)
My rez is i wanna be a father in 125 years from now…:)
As usual, truth and reality is brilliantly relayed by my amigo… Panos Skoulidas!
And Panos if you remember we actually “kissed and made up” online, before we met in real life in C’ville. But it was there that all became clear… you are a true mensch! Even the lovely Rachel thinks you’re too cool! Long and the short of it… yes, you’re right, it would probably be the exact same with Bob. And yes, I do respect him and his intellect.
But now maybe it is best I just take Patricia Lay Dorsey’s advice and shut the hell up about personal shit. Fine and dandy. Well…. maybe! ;^}
As Civi would say… love u all! What’s not to love?
Civi, Panos…
See you guys at Varanasi in 2134 AD…with Panos’s little child Adonis!
Joe —
I’ll have to try viewing these without reading the intros. I have no way of telling now whether what my initial reaction would’ve been. Anyway, hope you saw the smiley after calling myself a derivative lemming. Of course, there’s a little bit of the derivative in me for sure, just part of my exploration of photography, so that doesn’t bother me. Lemming? Well some would vehemently agree, I’m sure! HAha.
Panos —
Showering and heading out downtown. We still on….?
2134 AD…
thats not too far… i can totally make it….
( probably driving from LA …:))))))))
BODO,
2134 …no way, I will be on the road again…I am booked:))))
Thanks though…
MICHAELK,
I love the HEALING WATERS, nice website…
O.K , back to the regular program …what is in the menu Today???
ANY BURNIANS in LA???
let’s have a meeting soon!!!
I am calling all BURNIANS for a meeting in a Los ANGELES area in the next 3-4 days!!!
Let’s ROCK…
Civi… thanks! You’re very kind.
MK usually in life, we get what we deserve…
Love brings love and more love and blah,blah…
and BURN brings more BURNIANS and keep going…where is my beer?
Jared can you pass the beer ,please?
Marcin…
I hope you saw my three fave fotos comment. It’s a little up-thread but not too far.
MARCIN / ERICA
Woman on the last train photo? I missed a link somewhere…..where…..I would love to see….
Good light, burnians! Welcome to the new week…..
a.
Patricia — and anyone else near Detroit:
The last Wednesday of the month (July 29) I’m having the opening of the first gallery show I’ve been involved in. It ain’t nothing spectacular…just a show at Belmont Bar in Hamtramck featuring local music photographers. I think there are only five of us featured? I was a bit surprised to be asked as I have only been in Detroit since the end of last year. It will be all local photographers and all photos will be local bands.
I really want to put this outtake from a shoot in, but I still didn’t get the go ahead from one of the guys, so will probably leave it out. They’re sometimes kind of weird about outtakes, and even though they have seen this and I have posted it, it’s one thing to post it on someone’s myspace for fun, and another to have it hanging in a gallery show for a month for the entire Detroit music scene to see. ;-)
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3244/3044520763_2912c38dbc_o.jpg
I love these guys.
Diana, that’s fabulous news about your show at the Belmont! Alas, I’m needing to make an unexpected driving trip to Vermont to visit a dear friend whose health is rapidly deteriorating. I’ll be leaving this Wednesday and may not return home in time for your opening. But you and I still need to make a date…maybe dinner at the Cass Cafe. We’ll definitely hook up soonest (in DAH-speak).
Patricia
LOVE the outtake!!! Can’t wait to see your work…
Patricia
Michael,
Yes, I’ve seen your links. Thanks for answer. Abell rocks! :)
Andrew
I have asked about your most most favorite picture. Three most favorite. And the girl in train is Pinkhassov’s photo, my second favorite picture. The first one is Abell’s fishersman.
comments with links have to wait for moderation that’s why they could be missed.
She’s only human and Ballad would always be hard to follow:
http://5b4.blogspot.com/2009/07/les-rencontres-darles-2009-nan-goldin.html
Anyone else take in this installation?
DAH in the Far Away land of no internet and lovely sunsets..
I have come upon an idea! I have prepared a series of questions for you as an interview to do here, live, one question at a time, to then be posted as a whole under scribbling in the dark.
What say you?
Can wait till you are home..if it sounds like a good idea you tell me when..I have 9 questions at the ready..
when
when?
When what??:)
good afternoon y’all from playa del rey california
When… as in “When!” Meaning go ahead and post the questions. At least that’s what I think Marcin was saying?
ufff…
Marcin :)
is it when or ufff?
Or simply “when”…?
Hmmm… Interesting conversation ..
Hmmmufffwhen???
( just messing around.. Can’t watch
the latest essay.. No flash in the iPhone.But..
what’s new?)
Ah, I see.. I need to make sure DAH is up for it and around to answer..maybe even..gasp..start a new dialogue thread ? :)
cheap vodka and cranberry juice. Clearly, I’m not proud!
Hi all.
a thought…
on the most recent essay, some comments suggested that (not a direct quote)
“the images would look great in print”.
my thought – who gives a damn? if the photographer has chosen to show their photographs in an online environment, it’s their responsibility to make sure that they look good in that medium.
agree/disagree?
Agree.
And that’s not the vodka talking! ;^}
I think folks go out of their way here to say nice things, even if they sound strange. The photos in the essay are heavily post processed, to the point that they look plastic. The post processing is heavy enough to be, obviously from the comments, distracting to most people. If we’re talking about the post processing rather than the images themselves, the photographer has failed. It doesn’t matter a whit whether they are in print or on the web.
Agree.
I’m sorry, but style matters. I read novels and news reports from authors whos writing I enjoy, I see films from my favorite writers, directors and dp’s. If a photographer has a certain style and I find it off-putting I go elsewhere. What’s the big deal…
If the photographer stayed true to his aims he didnt fail, Jim. Just because some people cant get past it, doesnt mean it is a failure. If that was what he wanted, he didnt fail. I got some flack for too much use of flash in my essay. Use of flash was something I intended. Hence I wouldnt call it a failure even if some people dont like it.
Rafal,
I suppose it depends on what you intend. If you are trying to give people a sense of a tragedy you’ve been covering and if most of the viewers have difficulty getting past the post processing… well that doesn’t seem like a great success. However, if you are showing an essay that you’ve put together for the purpose of eliciting general critiques and comments, helpful feedback and such… then yes, there is no “fail.”
Rafal, if the photographer was trying to provoke a discussion on technique or style, then he certainly succeeded. But since he was photographing rotting, bloated bodies, I surely hope his purpose was more serious. Style should be invisible in these kinds of photos.
No, Jim, I again disagree. The style is what it is. Again, with my use of flash it became a minor issue aside from me being called a chauvanist pig, but I digress. The use of flash was intended, and because that was my intention, I dont consider it a failure even if some people cant get past it. I am 100% sure the processing in this essay is just as intended. If some people cant get past it that doesnt make it a failure, it just makes it a side issue for some people to get hung up on. Listen, in the end one has to stay true to one’s intentions, stylistic or content-wise, and not taylor it to as broad an audience as possible.
Michael,
is that truly the choice? I see it as someone who has a vision and presents it. Why would straight photography do a better job? The facts are there. The style is a red herring IMO, I think people are getting bent out of shape about it. I mean would style even be an issue if this was shot with a 19th century camera instead of on film/digitally and processed?
Style shouldn’t detract from or feel imposed on the subject, and the best photographers develop a style that is fluid enough to accommodate their chosen subjects. Two negative examples — Alex Webb and Antonin Kratochvil. I thought Webb’s style was perfect in his book about Florida (one of my favorites) — the primary colors and hard light reflecting the strangeness of the place where I grew up. That same style imposed on the US / Mexico border in “Crossings,” in my view, fails because no one else would see the border area that way. The pictures look too much like an art project and are not sensitive to the reality they purport to capture. The same could be said about his book “Istanbul.” The photos are stunningly beautiful, but they are really just paintings and I don’t learn or discover anything about the city, other than the fact that cool pictures can be made there.
Same is true of Kratochvil. The heavy-grained black and white and tilted camera are great in war-torn eastern Europe or Africa, not so much in suburban America. But his style always seems imposed; nothing is revealed except the photographer’s strange aesthetic.
Every good photographer has a style. But lots of good photographers become captives of their own style — this is true in all creative fields.
The Kills | Good Ones
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMiRDICVq6s
well… you guessed that right…
its that time of the night again…:)
THE DUKE SPIRIT – THE STEP AND THE WALK
What New York Used To Be
The Kills
Pinback – “Fortress”
and of course …
Slayer
Sepultura
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Y-DibwjEn0
“Roots Bloody Roots”
This quote from the bio page on James Whitlow Delano’s website (www.jameswhitlowdelano.com)
“I’ve always had a special feeling of admiration for reportage photographers who work with poetic subtlety, who respect the nature of the situations they are photographing, keeping in mind that the images might very well be seen and commented on by a vast viewing public.
The style James incorporates in his essay,here, is one he has brought to the majority of his work for
over a decade.
He’s certainly not a newbie who needs the benefit of our collective ‘advice’ but when a vast majority of
comments focus on the same point then,perhaps, there’s a point to consider
Panos, to keep with your heavy-themed playlist I’ll add Disturbed
Preston,
I see it differently. I WANT to see photographers with a strong style. What is the use of seeing a body of work done to look the way I see things? I dont want to buy a Parr book shot in a neutral way. I want to see a subject done the Parr way. Or the Webb way. Or the Harvey way. If things were as you seem to wish them to be, all phootgraphy would look the same. How boring would that be? If we look at this essay, I find the photos much more interesting than the photos I saw in the newspaper, shot in the straight PJ style…where there is no style. 99% of the photos in newspapers are boring, dull, mediocre. The worst thing would be to have those with a strong, distinctive style dumb it down to that level.
Preston, as far as Istanbul, did you really look at the book to learn about Istanbul? For that there are plenty of web sites and travel books. You could see an endless collection of dreadful, yet informative photos of Istanbul. When I look at Webb’s photos the last thing on my mind is that I want to learn something about a said place.
Strong styles are good, but not every style is good for the every subject. All of Webb’s work looks the same. Here’s Webb in Miami, Haiti, India, Mexico, Turkey — the photos are interchangeable. But I like his style. I just don’t think it succeeds in every locale, and after shooting the same photos for decades what gets him out of bed in the mornings?
Parr is a stylist and shoots as a stylist. The point of his photos is the style.
Harvey has a strong style, but he shoots in different moods/modes. His photos clearly look like Harvey photos, but the style does not overwhelm the subject. If you like “Divided Soul,” you will probably also like “Living Proof” — but the photos are not shot in the same style, even if they still seem like Harvey photos. Beatles songs don’t all sound the same, yet they all sound like Beatles songs.
Rafal, I’m not saying Webb should shoot “dreadful yet informative photos” (there is no such thing), but if the pictures don’t offer some insight, some way of understanding, some connection to the subject, then what’s the point?
Preston,
I have to disagree with the bulk of what you’ve written above. Truly great ____________ anythings are known for their style, they don’t change it/water it down, etc. They are able to get the message across through their style, in spite of it almost. I think Kratchovil and Webb do this wonderfully.
I’m not saying that James should change his style, just that I don’t particularly care for it. Especially considering the subject matter…
Ha. I wrote that 2 hours ago and thought I pressed submit then… Glad you and Rafal got to it…
Preston,
if you want to see informative but dreadful photos go to sites like TrekEarth. 99% of it is pure crap, but you will learn what London or Paris look like. Webb was never shooting a travel book or an album. He was shooting places according to his style. The reason to buy a Webb book is to see what a place looks like through his lens. Not to get an education about locales in the world. You say they impose their style on places. Good. I hope so. And sure they may fail. But so what?
Rafal, I think it is totally valid not to detach entirely the matters of style from the events depicted sometimes, especially ones that saw so much death and havoc.
I think an artist, a photographer may welcome people to look at their work differently, but I also think they care, for most, that their intent be understood, or at the very least, guessed.
It seems people understand the formal aspect of his work, and describe it rather well, yet, sense it is failing somehow, in communicating what it’s about. Inherently, a valid criticism.
Once again, though, we are not, after seeing the photos, discussing the fate of the poor people in the essay, but the photographer’s style. The photographers style is standing in the way of his message. Unless the photographer’s goal was to get us to discuss his style, he has failed with this essay.
I agree with Jim, but photography is always a language, even simple pj it is always a style. I think nobody will be foucsed if everything will be the same.
Erica,
And what with this questions?
ahh… see, you are waiting for David… ok, I’ll be waiting.
Rafal, about Webb. The point of style is not to be gratuitous and merely define the personality of the pgotographer. Forget about learning, sure, but the quality of webb’s style is to provide insight about a place. Or indirectly something about the place, impressions and whatnot…
webb’s goal is not to compose the same pictures in different locales. Some may think he ended up doing just that, but I am dead sure it is not his purpose.
His valor, his talent, is that for being uniquely his vision, it delivers something visceral of the place and identifies it on different levels for all of us.
Istanbul may seem weaker in that manner, but maybe turks think he hit a nerve, and recognize their city in is more impressionistic manner.
So what defines style? The way it was shot? The way it was manipulated in processing? Both?
It seems by some definitions above, a student photographer who can’t seem to get the focus perfect, or has no clue about color balance in photoshop may not be “still learning” … maybe that is just their style?
Maybe then every amateur photographer who cannot seem to lear to operate the camera correctly is really a great photographer… Maybe it is just their “style”
For some I think the word “style” = crutch.
(Not in the case of this essayist…. I think Delano is a very good photographer. I am just not a big fan of the presentation. But that is personal preference. He has done some wonderful work – content wise.)
when a conversation degenerates to focus and color balance, shoot me dead, please. Boring.
For some I think style is a swear word. Thy shall not deviate from the neutral PJ approach. God forbid one dares to push the envelope. The nail that sticks out must be hammered down. This seems especially to come from the PJ side of the fence.
“on the most recent essay, some comments suggested that (not a direct quote)
“the images would look great in print”.
my thought – who gives a damn? if the photographer has chosen to show their photographs in an online environment, it’s their responsibility to make sure that they look good in that medium.”
Ben,
I made a comment relating to this work about how it would be viewed by people differently in print. I was highlighting the fact that in different environments, the work would evoke stronger (I believe) sentiments. I won’t follow up with any more conversation than this, but I was just wanted to make a point of how the medium of communication in which work is shown changes that work dramatically. I believe that sometimes, slideshows can make people impulsive and irritatingly impatient to see the work quickly, and here on Burn, to make a comment as quickly as possible.
Everyone has their own views, and I still feel the same way about what I expressed.
I reckon there would be plenty of detractors of this work from the burn readership, who, if they saw the same work in an 8 page spread in a prominent mag, would feel stronger about it. I believe photographs are best viewed in print; the photograph itself, or the next best thing, in a book, mag or catalogue. Showing somewhere online like burn is great too, but it is flicked over so briefly, that a lot of the time, work can not be fully appreciated as it would be in print. I just feel that negative comments about personal style and choice of presentation are just way too simple. I mean, come on… Everyone has their own way of working and James is obviously extremely experienced and knows how to BE and WORK in an environment such as the one he has presented in this work.
I find “some” of the comments about this work “moderately” constructive, but only just. Yet again there are people who frequent this website who appear to like the sound of their own voice too much. Some of the comments about this essay are really insensitive, especially considering the work some of the commentators present on their own websites.
I’m sure that James is too busy working on his next piece of over-vignetted, soft, poorly post-produced, blurry black and white images to be worried about this discussion, but James if you read this, perhaps you might like to buy a 10×8 and shoot the next disaster in colour. Then perhaps readers of burn will be more receptive to that.
To quote from the photographers bio:
“This work is entirely uncensored and unaltered,” he says, “I don’t change anything for anyone…I have a point of view and a reason for each undertaking.”
“Yet again there are people who frequent this website who appear to like the sound of their own voice too much. Some of the comments about this essay are really insensitive, especially considering the work some of the commentators present on their own websites.”
Sean,
Where is the line? The line between legitimate critique and “only wanting to hear one’s own voice?”
“when a conversation degenerates to focus and color balance, shoot me dead, please. Boring.”
“Thy shall not deviate from the neutral PJ approach. God forbid one dares to push the envelope. The nail that sticks out must be hammered down. This seems especially to come from the PJ side of the fence.”
I am not advocating a “PJ approach” for everything. There are a lot of photographer’s work that I admire and many of them have different styles. Some radically different.
In the case of the work in the essay we are talking about, I personally find the “style” distracting. As I said it looks like bad scans. This would be the same for poor printing technique. If Ansel Adams had some hack high school kid printing his work because he liked that “style”, my bet is that nobody would know who he is.
I am an advocate of the no rules mantra. I also think that sometimes it just doesn’t work.
In my opinion, this is one of those times.
SEAN
“I reckon there would be plenty of detractors of this work from the burn readership, who, if they saw the same work in an 8 page spread in a prominent mag, would feel stronger about it.”
For the most part I agree with you. Images do look better in print or printed than on a web browser. BUT… lets not feel differently or be impressed because an image is in a magazine or on a gallery wall. Just because a photograph hangs in MOMA does not mean one has to like it.
Also…
“Yet again there are people who frequent this website who appear to like the sound of their own voice too much. Some of the comments about this essay are really insensitive, especially considering the work some of the commentators present on their own websites.”
HMMM, seems to me the second part of that statement is “insensitive.” It is no less so because didn’t name who’s web sites you are referring to.
Pete,
maybe someone should have printed Adams’ photos. It may not come out technically perfect but it might actually, though I doubt it, be interesting. Seriously, you couldn’t have come up with a more boring example than Adams is you tried.
if you tried.
RAFAL
The point is that the true genius of Adams work was the printing.
ON STYLE:
For me it is important to differentiate between STYLE and AUTHORSHIP..a style is something that can be put on or swapped out..think clothing, or home decorating..for my (pretend) beach house, I’d work with one decorating style, for my NYC pad, another, because they are fitting to the place, they help you respond to your environment, because they fit. Both styles are my own because they come from a genuine personal vision that I can access because I am in touch with ‘who I am’ and what I want to say’. If I try to take one style that works quite well in one situation, possibly because that style garnered attention and praise, and I apply it to a new situation without regard for how appropriate that may be, I will fall short, because I wasn’t present with the demands of the situation, how best to communicate and express myself in regards to what was before me.
ERICA
I agree with your assessment, BUT not everyone has heard DAH preach the authorship mantra. So generally people use the word style.
Right Preston about Parr, his best known styled work ( he does do other things, in other styles – think Bad Weather, while still working from his authorship) tends to succeed across the board because the message he wishes to communicate is part and parcel with the surface communication of it as well as his point of view..
Pete..
I see, but it need not be about having heard DAH alone to be able to differentiate the two – to me the word is actual VISION – but people get a little up in arms about it, as if anyone with vision has to be a grand artiste :)
Ah, PETE..actually, I think what you just said was that people here may use the word style instead of authorship..
my point was that I think above the word style is being used correctly, but the conversation isn’t hitting home because the conversation needs to separate the concept of style from the concept of authorship/vision.
If people want to call authorship/vision, style, that’s fine, but I think the conversation was actually addressing style and not authorship/vision. Meaning that my perspective is that the when a piece relies on style instead of authorship, it falls short of communicating at the level it could.
ERICA
I agree
Delano uses two M2 cameras and two 35mm lenses. He prints, then scans the prints, and then prints the scans.
I like the sound of my voice.
If you don’t like it don’t read this.
There, you’ve been warned.
Burn comments sometimes make me think about the writing class I took back in university. I didn’t take the writing class because I liked writing back then, I took the writing class because the professor that taught this specific class was a total babe, she was young, slender, well over six-feet tall, with loads of strawberry blonde hair, but since she always wore her hair in a bun, you could never tell how long her hair really was. She would deliver the entire class while in a casual wander through the room, only occasional leaning on the front of her desk when her wander brought her back that way.
every once in a while she would actually just show up at one of the houses that had keg parties down the road from where she lived at that time and once when i was there she walked right into the kitchen where we were doing ice-bong hits and just popped right into the bong rotation without even breaking the conversation with the girl that followed her in from the other room. i still remember taking extra-special care that there were no seeds when i packed the pipe fitting for her. i knew it was a rare event, her joining it, because people came up to me for a while after that and asked if it actually happened and i enjoyed each time saying with a grin that a gentleman never tells; anyway, i digress.
since she was only an adjunct professor she only offered night classes; which for some reason only seeing her at night made her so much more sexy to a college freshman. Without a doubt she had a cult following that was not unlike dead-poet’s society and for some reason no one ever tried to pull her (pick her up). Back then i thought it was because she was so tall, but now i know it was because she was just so far ahead of us intellectually and emotionally. She had so much influence over us that she could tell us to jump off a bridge and we would jump off first and ask why later, girls and guys alike. So you can imagine how easy it was for her to get us to read everything she told us to read and do what ever she told us to do, no matter how embarrassing it was to do it with total strangers. (by the way, if you ever happen to someway read this Miss O: Sorry, i went into banking, but i hope you appreciate my memory)
interestingly in her class we barely had to write at all, which at the time i found both weird and wonderful, weird because F.F.S. it was a writing class; wonderful, because in reality it was really a writing philosophy class, just what a budding freshmen needs: another philosophy class. This class was like a red rag to a bull for us.
her classes were almost always the same; she had us read loads and loads of short stories that she had handed out at the end of the last class. These hand-outs took the form of thick stapled stacks of photocopied book pages, remember that low fidelity blue ink back then for photocopies? Well that’s how our reading was served up for that class. The book store must have hated her because it was the only class that you didn’t need to spend a bundle on a book that you never used. i also remember sometime after that class appreciating the pleasure of actually reading a ‘real’ high-fidelity book page verses a low-fidelity ‘copy’ of one.
in each class we talked loads about those hand-out stories, actually I Lie!, we never talked about the stories!!, we talked entirely about the devices the author used to release those stories to our minds, and loads of the time we just talked about what effing colour the sky was in the actual author’s world to write the way they did (she always knew). Seems like an upside down way to discuss a story, no? Wonder what the poor characters in the story thought about that as they got ignored, while we talked about Onomatopoeia?
she picked stories from Edgar Allen Poe and she picked stories i didn’t like; which is why i can’t for the life of me remember them. Again we never actually talked about the plots, we talked only about chains of short sentences, and the chains of words making up a long sentence, and we talked about how the writing techniques actually affected our breathing when you read them, and we talked about back-story and foreshadowing and all the things that actually seem to be part of our own conversational techniques, and yep, we talked about derivatives and clichés!
all the sudden you realised that right under your noses, actually, right before your eyes in everything you read there were these deliberate little text-based chefs serving up your written food.
one of the things she impressed on us was that life and therefore ‘we’ were pregnant with stories already and most of us could replay a story in an exciting, interesting, or captivating way at a bar, in the library, or on the phone with your friends, but could you really convey the same story with the same excitement, with the same enthusiasm, with written words? i still remember thinking, Of Course You Can! i still remember finding out, “of course you can’t!!!” She designed loads of different embarrassing exercise to prove this: ‘mucho’ humiliating.
i think that by the end of the class we were totally in awe by how much of what we read AND are captivated with is actually in a large part because the person serving up that information is both ver clever and very deliberate with their communication. These little text-chefs, as i thought of them, knew the desired outcome for their writing and they wrote to achieve that.
i think by the end of that class we were totally humbled by the how difficult it is to communicate with the written word and get the same outcome, with the same efficiency that you can get with conversation (hence chefs and not short-order cooks). BUT, we did leave that class knowing that it’s not impossible! It’s just loads harder than we thought.
And this brings me to fish hooks that photography has thrown into my own flesh, this sort of paradox. Basically a picture is supposed to be worth a thousand words right? Sound pretty efficient, no? A photo-essay by its pure definition is a set or series of photographs that are intended to tell a story or evoke a series of emotions in the viewer. Sound pretty easy, right?
Then (leaving out single iconic images and ‘mood pieces’) why the heck can in almost every situation, why can conversational, or written words always do so much better of a job than a photo essay to deliver a story, better as measured by the quality of outcome and the efficiency of getting there?
Why do the constructs of a photo essay fail so miserable almost every time in comparison to its communication cousins to tell a story?
Sure a set of images can surely help a text based story when they are partnered up, but take away the text and you’re back in the land of communication futility every time, more often than not you end up worse than failing, you end up with miscommunication!!
But take the images away from the text and you’re back in the realm of success Most of the time.
Sometimes i wonder if the concept of a pure photo-essay to tell a story that trumps all other forms of approaches is really just a fallacy.
Photo essays for:
a.) Mood pieces: Yes.
b.) Stories: Sorry, find another media/approach.
I’m not familiar enough with his work to say anything across the board, and I haven’t read the whole thread, but it is interesting what you wrote Jim, because part of me was wondering if his intention was to make the viewer feel as if he was looking through water when viewing this work..a sense of being removed, caught in a glassy or watery space..I did feel that way.
If you read enough comments about him on the web, a lot of people consider him one of the greatest living photojournalists. Very odd.
JOE
“This class was like a red rag to a bull for us.” – I appreciate the analogy but bulls are color blind.
“Photo essays for:
a.) Mood pieces: Yes.
b.) Stories: Sorry, find another media/approach.”
That is just “BULL” shit
Joe, I agree with you. Photos are almost useless as narrative. Words are much more efficient.
JIM
I think he is a very very good photojournalist. Or should it be documentary photographer? Is there a difference? I think he has a great eye and the content of the images are outstanding. As I said it is the presentation (style?) or style of presentation that I do not care for.
“He prints, then scans the prints, and then prints the scans.” – There is the reason for the “effect” that I said looks like bad scans. Gives me chills. Four generations to get to the final product. Like making a copy neg of a print that was made using a copy neg.
Erica.
Most of his work that I have seen is presented this way.
“..”photojournalist. Or should it be documentary photographer? Is there a difference? ”
Yes, in my book.
But here are some well pointed thoughts on it, expressed in an interview with Susan Meiselas:
Mariola Mourelo: Your own work can be described as both documentary and as photojournalism. However, this relationship is not always clear and documentary photographers and photojournalists make great efforts to clarify that they are in fact completely different practices. For instance, I was once told while doing a work placement in a local newspaper that there is in fact a big difference between documentary and photojournalism: “documentary photographers take pictures for themselves and photojournalists for the readers.” Do you agree with this statement? Would you say that you take pictures for yourself, for the readers/viewers, or for the magazines and newspapers?
Susan Meiselas: This is an essential question, and perhaps a confusion of practice. In some ways I agree though it is a bit too simplistic. For example, in my case, though my work has often been published in magazines and sometimes in newspapers, the work was not produced for them. My first project, “Carnival Strippers,” was a very personal project that was initially an exhibition and then became a book. However, I wanted readers to engage with the words of the subjects. The work itself was totally self-assigned and only once published in a magazine during the time I was shooting.
In the next decade working in Latin America Latin America, I felt that I was documenting history, not simply “news,” though clearly many of the photographs were seen first in magazines such as Time or Paris Match. My vision was always to observe and portray a process that meant committing time that was not supported by the resources or interests of any one publication. That again was a specific personal choice that felt right for me. Many other photographers made photographs and moved on, while I stayed as long as I could. So magazines were the first medium and then I gathered the work together into exhibition and book form. I was always thinking first of “history,” then both readers and viewers.
JH/MM: So do you think that documentary and photojournalism refer to different approaches? Does the media and art market influence the way photographers work?
SM: I do think these words “documentary” and “photojournalism” refer to different approaches but are rarely thoughtfully used to distinguish the work that is self-generated vs. assigned. Of course there are other distinctions worthy of much more discussion, such as the degree to which the work is intended to be “illustrating” text or reflecting a process of investigation and discovery by the photographer.
In my book also.
I always looked at it as a documentary photographer creates a body of work on a subject but the result is not a linear story. Much like DAH’s Cuba work or Divided Soul. Or Salgado.
On the other hand I think of a photojournalist as one who creates a lot of single images of note and any stories or essays they may produce are exactly that… stories.
Maybe this is an oversimplification on my part.
I do think that documentary work can be assigned. Much of what I see in Nat Geo I consider to be documentary work as opposed to photojournalism. But I do agree that especially in this day that much of it is self-assigned.
“Why do the constructs of a photo essay fail so miserable almost every time in comparison to its communication cousins to tell a story?”
If they do, possibly because thoughts / experiences can be sourced from a period of time that is as old as is history from a well of information and can be created into word constructs in a way that is only limited by intelligence and wit and expression, and images for an essay are gathered from the present moment or a relative short time frame of series of moments, and are created into visual constructs in a way that is limited, to some degree, by what is present and able to captured by an individual.
??
Joe, excellent comment! I don’t usually read anything that long on Burn, but since I am writing program refugee I was there with you the whole way.
I disagree with your conclusion, though. I think photos can make for an extraordinary narrative — it’s just that most photographers think a photo essay is just a bunch of pictures strung together. But think of some of the photogs who do narrative very well: Peress’ “Telex Iran,” all of Salgado’s books, Abbas’ “Return to Mexico,” Harvey’s “Living Proof,” Bendiksen’s “Satellites. These are book-length photo essays, rich and nuanced.
Webb, obviously, is not a narrative photographer, but his books seem presented as such. But I would hang a Webb print on my wall before one from just about anyone else.
Delano has a distinctive style (however he achieves it), and I find it engaging in some circumstances. His book on China, for example, is excellent (see it here: http://pa.photoshelter.com/c/jameswhitlowdelano/gallery/Empire-Impressions-from-China/G0000QwL_U_xLHlI/). We should all be so fortunate to amass such a body of work.
But these photos are broader in scope than the Burma cyclone ones. If he does a big book about his explorations in Asia, and it includes a handful of the cyclone photos, I’m sure they will seem appropriate and resonant, his style will be a virtue, and most of us (including me) will lift our reservations.
Anyone who’s spent time inside Burma (and not on that lovely tourist package so often used) knows it’s anything but a beautiful place. I think the images sum up the feeling and the mood.
————————
which was written by Daniel under James’s essay. That is completely false, as regards the essay, which, could have been shot anywhere a cyclone happened in that region of the world. Bangla Desh, Indonesia, etc…. We have the tsunami photos to show that.
One may recognize certain burmese artifacts, but it’s hardly a pointer to a mood or feeling, which are not directly tied to the havoc made by the cyclone, and that tells us nothing about the country. Words can do that, not pictures here. Hence my regret that James did a surveying job, if a good one at that. he has to be congratulated for being at the right place, at the right time.
I really like the picture taken from his hotel window. I think it tells something of the place, for some reason. Weirdly, I believe this is the only one without people.
Delano, interestingly, in one of the interviews he did, acknowledged that his work was better received in the East than the West. Only a few magazines in the US, he said, were open to his aesthetic. Which is some of the reason, I suspect, that a lot of people here don’t the “style” of his photos.
Okay, am more up to speed now on the JWD essay..
Had been rushed and all, I didn’t really look at the name of the person who did this essay, had taken a quick spin thru and didn’t read..just grabbed the impression of the watery / glassy feel..I realize now I know his work – but somehow seeing it here I didn’t connect it, maybe the dark burn backdrop threw me, I don’t know..Delano clearly has a very fined tuned sense of what he wants in regard to the surface of his work, and possibly it does echo back to glass negatives, or at least a timelessness..I think the darkroom treatment (diffusion?) works well in many other his bodies of work, less so for me here because of my desire to see clearly what had happened as a historical tragedy, but I think JWD is far enough on his path that he can make his own decisions without my input, unless asked.
James Whitlow Delano have a style. Sometimes it looks stronger than subject. It’s happen. And it is a problem for sure.
But he have own style!! I wish have own style, any style. my photography is piece of damn shit so I wish have a problems like mr. Delano have.
He know where he go, where he belongs.
He was a witness of big tragedy, and he just starded taking picures.
Thats what photographers do.
For me a style is a problem, but own style is value thing in our photography world full of crap.
I guess choosing to make multiple generations of an image to degrade the quality is a style, but not one I like. Many seem to feel that the slightly dreamy images give his photos a timelessness. No accounting for taste.
JIM
I took my first 14 frames with your lens yesterday..exciting..it was an off the cuff portrait, indoors and out, and the 35 was great for that, some sort of tight and intense, some more environmental..but the lens allowed for both. The lack of a focusing nob is odd for me at the moment, and for some reason I feel like the aperture could easily slip, but all in all so far thrilling and am looking forward to putting it through the paces!
Thank you so much..
You are welcome. The Ultron is a very good lens optically. I’ve never liked tabbed lenses, but a lot of folks like them. I guess it’s whatever you are used to. Never had any problem with the aperture moving. Maybe just a little softer detents than you are used to. Glad you are enjoying it.
Preston,
“These are book-length photo essays, rich and nuanced.”
i agree with you to some extent Preston, in your example you do ‘discover’ something from them and because of this i think it’s worth considering: BUT in my stubborn humble opinion they have no more narrative than someone putting in your lap a box of assorted precious gems, stones that you never knew existed until you saw them there in your lap. And there you sat exploring them, learning about them from what you see, ironically only learning what you can learn from the surface!
in the same fashion as photo-essays, you typically become ‘aware’ of something, sometimes something beautiful (as photographs are often aestheticised), but a narrative is more than a box of beautiful gems that you never knew before existed, even if they sequenced those gems to provide the best visual pace for your viewing pleasure; this really just makes those gems seem rich and nuanced, no? I know i’m being a bit stubborn, but i don’t want to believe it myself.
i can’t speak for Telex Iran or Living Proof, but from memory i didn’t discover narrative in the other offerings you mention. i discovered things i didn’t know before viewing them and i discovered them with a degree of visual pace, but please pick any one Preston and describe the narrative you experienced? My hunch is your description of narrative will really be a description of abstract feelings or moods that were invoked. i’d love to be wrong.
that being said, i would defend this as a stand-alone linked photo-essay that has narrative and maybe the only one i’d try to defend actually that’s not pure fiction. But again its narrative is as complex as the narrative to making a PB&J! Yes it’s filled with gems, and it has a narrative, but my god it’s a week narrative! let me know what you think of these 48 frames Preston:
http://www.paulkranzler.com/index.php?nav=projects&subnav=kremstal
Erica,
i was convinced you cut and paste that paragraph from a Wiki page as it seemed to be extracted and incomplete, but i stuck with it and re-read it a few more times and i think it actually sums up the constraints of photography as a story telling device nicely.
it reminds me of something Dennis Stock said somewhere; something about a Photograph must be Articulate. All his images seem to have distilled out any information (other non-essential words, noise) other than the crisp message he wanted to deliver, at least conceptually.
i think that’s the dilemma with a photograph, it’s simply not articulate enough to become a building block of a story in comparison to text. How effing funny is that?!? Since a picture is worth a thousand words it has too many words that you just don’t need! They become distractions! That’s clearly being absurd Erica ;-)
But seriously, words are so atomic in comparison to images and so full of independent mutually exclusive life that you can recombine them as easily as you can think to satisfy your communication wishes and a captivating narrative with story-arcs and well placed texture could be the most complex communication requirement we might ever try to solve.
a photograph when it needs to take part in a complex narrative seems too much like the same exercise they must have went through with celestial constellations. Imagine how long it took those astrologers to find a set of stars that resembled something we can remotely recognize? And let’s face it, none of them really resemble what they are called, have you ever seen Capricornus? How they decided that was a goat makes me think LCD was widely available back then.
This is what Alex Webb once said ages ago when i was only suspicious of the constraints of the still-image for communication:
“Dear Joe,
A good question about photographing the current (or indeed any) time. You basically point to the limitations of still photography. I guess that ultimately I have reconciled myself to these limitations. For me, photography affirms reality, but does not explain it. Part of it’s strength lies in in its ambiguity, its suggestiveness. I embrace that strength of photography rather than worrying about its weaknesses.
If I was predominantly interested in explanation or analysis, or if my goal was to present what people are thinking, I would choose another medium — film or discursive writing. I like to think that sometimes still photography can, through suggestion, get at complicated, inexplicable notions, much the way poetry does. More discursive forms like essays may not deal as well with these more elusive notions.
Alex”
“i was convinced you cut and paste that paragraph from a Wiki page as it seemed to be extracted and incomplete”
all me, and incomplete as my immediate come to mind burn responses usually are :)
“but i stuck with it and re-read it a few more times and i think it actually sums up the constraints of photography as a story telling device nicely.”
why thank you..
“If I was predominantly interested in explanation or analysis, or if my goal was to present what people are thinking, I would choose another medium”
Really, why don’t visually minded people paint picture essays?
An observation.
Interesting phenomenon that occurs pretty regularly in these threads… Usually plays out something like this:
Someone offers an opinion of a photograph or an essay that is not all butterflies and unicorns, this offends the sensibilities of someone else (usually not the photographer), the offended then slithers over to the opinionators website, desperate to find crappy or “derivative” images (and–human nature being what is–he no doubt will!) so he can then return and say, “well your photography sucks, so I don’t have to take your opinion seriously… So now kindly shut the fuck up!” (or something like that.)
The implication of course is that if you don’t have the stature of a DAH or Allard or Nachtwey or the like then you really have no right to be critical. Weirdly, it is a practice of many in here.
This is the real Flikr-ization of the forum. Not simply negative critiques.
This is not to say, however, the forum should be shut down. Far from it. It’s just an inevitable evolution of a forum driven website. Nothing to be terribly concerned with. Everything will shake out in time. The site would collapse overnight if the forum was closed. No forums no traffic.
But it is kind of interesting.
Erica, didn’t HCB say he took up photography because he couldn’t paint? :0)
Joe, I think you are selling the medium short. Webb’s quote is what I am talking about: “I like to think that sometimes still photography can, through suggestion, get at complicated, inexplicable notions, much the way poetry does.” Photo “essays” are poetry sequences not prose. Whatever narrative they contain is oblique, impressionistic, non-linear. This is all perfectly valid as rhetoric, even if the medium is visual. Webb, for all the clarity of his comment, doesn’t really exploit photography’s narrative possibilities. It’s obviously something he just chooses not to do.
You wrote, “My hunch is your description of narrative will really be a description of abstract feelings or moods that were invoked. i’d love to be wrong.” I’m not talking about feelings or moods, or any type of viewer response. (I honestly don’t care how photos make a person feel — those feelings have more to do with the person than the photo. Much of Burn is consumed with this, as if photography criticism is synonymous with personality disorder. A person doesn’t “get” something and then declares the photo a failure — this is not what I am talking about.)
I am really interested in the idea of narrative in photography, mostly because it is both vastly overused (photographers calling themselves “storytellers” and the proliferation of software like soundslides) and because it is hard to find really good examples.
Cartier-Bresson’s photos are rich in narrative. They all seem like bits of a short story — scenes, situations, human interaction, visual puns. They are witty and humane. Very few of them have anything to do with the light; most have everything to do with the situation they present. But while his individual images are rich in narrative, he has very few sequences that could be called essays or sustained narratives (there are a few — his sequence on Gandhi’s assassination his superb).
Eugene Smith gets credit for having invented the photo essay, though all of the Life shooters, including Capa, were clearly working to create sequences that told stories. And by stories, all I mean is that the photos each strive to do something different, to present in their totality something greater than any one image.
For modern examples, Salgado’s narratives are unsurpassed. You can’t read “Migrations” or “Workers” and not come away with a sense that you have watched a documentary about labor or the movement of peoples. I don’t care how they make you feel, but the point of the books is to present a sustained narrative, a story told through photos. We can all debate about what it means, how it was achieved, etc., just as we can with a short story by Edgar Alan Poe.
I think narrative in photography is hard to talk about because the terms have to come from somewhere else (literary criticism), and because any 10 pictures thrown together is said to be a photo essay. Webb is not an essayist; neither was Cartier-Bresson, but he is a narrative photographer.
PRESTON
That was very well said. I may have to rethink my photojournalist/documentary photographer comment earlier.
“I wonder if World Press Photo is peeling away from reflecting the media as it is, and is rather reflecting the media the way we wish it were. Of the 376 images awarded prizes this year, I would be curious to know how many have been published in a paid-for context. Maybe all of them. Maybe. But the overall impression that I’m left with from the 470,214 images that I have seen entered into the contest in the current decade, is that they reflect a form of photojournalism that is now more romantic than functional.”
“The overwhelming impression from the vast volume of images is that photojournalism (as a format for interpreting the world) is trying to be relevant by copying itself rather than by observing the world.”-Stephen Mayes – On Photojournalism Today . http://www.aphotoeditor.com/2009/07/22/stephen-mayes-on-photojournalism-today/
This’ll get things going….
P
Suggesting that folks should actually make money from photography will get you attacked here! ;)
Good stuff Preston. It’s clear that you’ve thought about this laods too.
Some of the things you say worth repeating:
“But while his individual images are rich in narrative, he has very few sequences that could be called essays or sustained narratives” – regarding HCB. Agreed. i would never argue that the single image narrative is, and has always been: alive and well. This is why i was so careful to specific not include single iconic images in my skepticism.
“And by stories, all I mean is that the photos each strive to do something different, to present in their totality something greater than any one image” – This is exactly what i’m talking about Preston. i’ve seen this effort work well loads of times for emotional pieces and even ‘informative’ pieces that seemed only complete by showing every side of a six sided die, as if you would only ‘know’ it was a die by showing every unique side of it (i think The American’s fits this view), but how often do you see something as simple and clear as a pure biblical level conflict with man vs. x and how often do see something as simple story arc inside a photo essay?
i appreciate the icons you mention have produced examples, but why is there not more? I sort of think it’s because it’s too hard to do if not impossible! If it was more common there would surely be an undebatable successful set of examples here on Burn and none jump out in my mind.
No it won’t, Jim.
Suggesting that
a) if youi aren’t making money from it you are just playing at a hobby, or
b) that $$$$$ should be the prime and only aim for your photography …
will.
It’s interesting that the two photographers I think are the 2 most overrated have been brought up simultaneously in this thread. Ansel Adams and Cartier-Bresson. Ive never like either. Adams is to me the prime example of a pictorialist whose photos dont go into any depth. here’s a mountain, shoot a mountain, see a mountain. Or a canyon. Technically yes he was a great printer. But what good does that do when his entire body of work is barely more than well printed postacrds? HCB OTOH, the Raphael of photography, is a prime example of form over any real substance. Looking at his iconic images, theres nothing there save for great composition. It seems to me to be a rather shallow exercise in composing. And much like Adams it seems his photos repeat ad infinitum a formula. But photography shouldnt be about formulas it should be about capturing life and emotion, and life and emotions are messy not easily composed and subjected to some geometric rules.
But photography shouldnt be about formulas it should be about capturing life and emotion, and life and emotions are messy not easily composed and subjected to some geometric rules.
Hi Rafal.
Not all life and emotion is “messy”. It is often quite orderly, clean, brilliant, touching, quiet, tender, beautiful and wondrous. Photography should be about more than you seem to be suggesting. Unless I misread. I may have.
By nmessy I mean complicated, raw. Not sterile. HCB, to me, seemed to reduce the moment to geometry and timing. Life is deeper and more complicated than that.
Fair enough.
I hate to interrupt the critique and commentary on photo essays here, but can I get a little unbiased feedback? I’m narrowing down photos for a little gallery show of local music photography and trying not to have more than one shot of each band. Preferences on these two?
Number 1:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3097/3377776344_0b3ba3b0ec_o.jpg
Number 2:
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3541/3377774992_948ed35722.jpg
Thanks!
Diana, the guitarist in me would like to go with #2 to show off that Vox amp, but #1 is definitely “IT” in terms of energy. The ghostly EXIT sign above the singer (which I didn’t notice at first) adds to the image, resonating her hair color.
There, you have the opinion of and amateur guitarist and amateur photographer :-)
To the people who always whine about the hard criticism given on this site, think about one thing. One of the main perpetrators of heavy criticism is Jim Powers. When Erica was in dire straits over her equipment, Jim sent her a lens. It’s all virtual here, don’t take it too seriously, warts and all, and step up to the plate in the real world, where and when it really counts.
Rafal, I think HCB CREATED the moment thru geometry and timing, not reducing it to. which makes that his images add up to more than the sum of their parts (or geometry). Look at Giacometti’s portrait under the rain, and that of the Joliot-Curie couple, countless others with instinctual insight and psychological depth.
About essays such as James’s, I think nowadays, bearing witness to what happens after a tragedy, weeks, month, years, matters more than the tragedy itself. These days, we can know and see what happens anywhere instantly, save maybe from North Korea.
Such images usually induce a human and moral outrage that rarely goes beyond a kind of sentimentalism that suffices to itself, and never translates into more than soundbite and PC knowledge of a place and its people.
Hence the importance of concerned and serious photographers, documentarists, and writers, to make sure that to the best of their abilities, knowledge and information keep being recorded, long after the “facts”.
Herve,
theres a difference between whining about the critiquing and disagreeing with the critique. If not I wouldnt have submitted a 2nd essay to Burn nor the first one. I simply disagree with the point made about the processing of the Burma essay.
About HCB, we will disagree.
Rafal, I wonder if you aren’t using the sensibility of one generation to look at those of another and if this is either fair or relevant.
Also, if you are of the opinion that photography should be about “capturing life and emotions” and that only, then I would argue that you will miss the experience of a great percentage of some very excellent contemporary photography and will have overlooked some of the very ideas and voices of your own generation which you seemingly use to criticize another.
Should we do away with Abstract Expressionism in favor of Realism? Or might there be room, as we accept there is in the painted image, in photography as well for a multiplicity of technique, vision, style and poetry?
Jamie,
Im simply saying I dont like HCB. His photos always seemed little more to me than exercises in timing. He just isnt somebody I like and I never really understood the praise heaped on him as a Raphael of photography. To me there are countless examples of deeper, stringer, more meaningful photographers, who went above and beyond compositional games. My tastes are varied, and range from people like Goldin to people like Eggleston and Shore. Infact I love contemporary photography. I love Norfolk, I love Kuyas, I love Soth, I love Power, I love Teller, etc. The 2nd essay I submitted to Burn is 190 degrees different from the first one published here. My beef with HCB is that there isnt much there beyond the surface. Eggleston was able to capture so much more in a simple photo of a tricycle.
that should read 180 degrees, ofcourse
rafal, with respect, i think what you meant to write was:
“FOR ME, Eggleston was able to capture so much more in a simple photo of a tricycle.”
Ben Roberts,
thats understood, of course. Do we really need to qualify every statement that is obviously an opinion?
just making sure. ;-)
Diana,
#1. Love the ‘exit’ sign and the emotion.
Diana
the 1st one is a winner…sin duda!
Rafal, I sure did not have you in mind, when I made that comment about whining over harsh criticism. I was speaking of people, usually out of the blue, with no link to refer to, who for example put down Jim for putting down James…
Like the guy who writes that people speak only of style, not of the situtaion, then…. speaks of none of the above at all! :-))))
Form precedes substance in art. Le fond est dans la forme…
Then, it’s a matter of taste. But Webb is as much a formalist as HCB, IMHO. And I think you are yourself quite acquired to the idea that a photo is never to be interpretated as fact, truth, ie. literally. Why such a literal/formalist reading of what is in a HCB frame, then?
We also can’t ask him to have been alert to all that came to enrich photographic vision after him, or even when he was alive. It’s like wondering why Raphael could not feel/see like Renoir or Monet. What is definitely puzzling, for applying criticism, is that HCB and Webb, or else, are born in the same century.
(btw, he is not my favorite p., not defending an idol)
JAMES WHITLOW DELANO:
Bravo herve!
————————————
…
PS: no, nothing to add. Just liked the sound of it! :-))))))))))))))))
Dear DIANA,
I would go with number # 1 …I love exits :)))
photo-beauty …is in the eyes of the beholder…
LOVE U ALLLLLL
I think John Pitsakis’ comment hits some good notes:
https://www.burnmagazine.org/essays/2009/07/james-whitlow-delano-in-the-eye-of-burmas-cyclone/comment-page-1/#comment-46611
Mr.Michael Kircher, you have an eye of a cyclone…
What not to love!!!
P.S Pitsakis,
the name sound so greek to me.
What are we drinking today…cold beer, Italian wine, HCB…:)))
A QUESTION
There is a discussion on Lightstalkers about something Capa once said. (supposedly)
The famous quote being “if your pictures aren’t good enough, you are not close enough.”
I always wondered what he meant.
Is he talking about PHYSICALLY close or EMOTIONALLY close?
I think most people tend to define it as physically close. The most obvious intent possibly. Was there any other elaboration by him on what he meant?
Any thoughts?
My understanding is that he meant physically close. I’ve never gotten the sense from Capa’s photos that he was emotionally close to those depicted in his photos.
I also understand he meant physically. Though aiming for both isn’t a bad idea! ;^}
And the new take on that is, “If your pictures suck, you’re not reading enough.” Can’t remember who said that.
Well if you look at Capa’s images, there are a lot where he is not that close (physically).
I am not a photographer BUT
I am going for the EMOTIONAL option…
You can be next to your subject But miles away…
BURNIANS you are so far away BUT I can feel you so close to ME…:)))
Well, not that close…:)))
yeap, the soul energy has to be there…my two euros!!!
Re: Burma essay.
I have held off from commenting for a few days on this, and i still dont really want to comment on its thread so i will say what i feel here in the woodshed.
I have looked at the essay quite a few times and tried to compare it with other work on his site.
I am baffled by the treatment.
I really want it to be a case of upload/scan glitching as I am seeing the same thing a lot of people here are seeing and it bugs me somewhat.
I look at the guys site and there is a lot of nice work there. A lot of stuff that looks like ‘lith’, stuff that looks solarised..all the way through to stuff that looks like the guy rubbed ‘KY’ on the enlarger lens.
But some of this essay looks decidedly odd. If its a stylistic treatment then I can only assume it is for display in a different medium than the net. And maybe in that form it works as it should.
Some people have said that the ‘style’ is not as important as the message and that is broadly true.
But…like a lot of people in this (net) format I am seeing the treatment/aesthetic first and that is distracting me from the message/story.
Sorry to ramble a bit but I am confused as to intent here.
John
John – check out his website and intent will come clearer..
A word of caution on STYLE:
“The power of our Muse lies in her meaninglessness. Even the style can turn one into a slave if one does not run away from it, and then one is doomed to repeat oneself. The only thing that counts is curiosity. For me personally, this is what creativity is about. It will express itself less in the fear of doing the same thing over again than in the desire not to go where one has already been.”
Gueorgui Pinkhassov
Hey y’all…:)))
just talked with DAH..
He says hello to ALL from Italy..
He will try to catch up with BURN Saturday night..
but most likely MONDAY morning..
Big hug
peace
re: Capa, I would guess both
I don’t know who said that Tom, but I say this:
If your pictures suck, you are spending too much time behind the computer and not enough behind the camera.
And you can quote me on that. ;-)
The consensus is #1. Thanks to all for the feedback!
Jim, did you get the idea he was physycally close? Most of Capa’s shots arent any closer to his subject than other people’s. I am convinced he was talking about commitment. Being commited, therefore close, to your subject. Capa was a commited war photographer and died in a war, shooting photos.. He didnt just do a bit of war and then on to other things.
Maybe we shouldn’t take that quote too literally. Sometimes even the middle distance is “close enough.”
Rafal, one could argue that since he was killed by stepping on a landmine, he got too close.
That comment is borderline unforgivable. The aptitude of this forum has shrunk to a new depth.
Joe, your righteous indignation is noted.
There’s nothing like a long road trip to clear your head…
I’m now in a motel in Burlington, VT after two days of driving 650 m/1046 km across the length of Ontario, through Akwesasne, NY, a Mohawk reservation that spans the Canadian and U.S. border at the St. Lawrence River, and dropping down through lovely Grand Isle County, Vermont in the middle of Lake Champlain. This is territory I’d never traveled before but I fear my friend is losing her long battle with cancer and I want to see her. I am also going to try to put together a simple photo essay and to let her speak into my digital recorder if she feels so inclined. She’s an author of spiritual books whose words rise up from the deepest places. I suspect there are things she’s going to want to say, especially now. Hopefully these images and words will be a gift I can give her family and friends.
But as I drove I was not just thinking of my friend; I was thinking of the lively discussion that James Whitlow Delano’s essay has engendered here on Burn. I also found myself wishing I had taken more time thinking about and writing my original response to his essay.
What James did was courageous. I do not think I could have borne to see and experience the dreadful pain and suffering he not only saw and felt but documented with his camera. I am sure these are images that are branded on his soul. I feel deep gratitude to photographers like James and Jim Nachtwey and Gene Richards–to name just a few–who provide witness to life and death with their hearts and cameras.
That being said, I am disappointed that, for me, the style James chose to use to present this story got in the way of my being able to travel with him into the “eye of the cyclone.” Much as I tried to see beyond the presentation of not all but a good number of his photos, I just couldn’t do it. And it was more than a matter of aesthetics. When I looked at an image like #4, my eyes literally started jumping around like grasshoppers and couldn’t find anywhere to settle. Now maybe this was the photographer’s intent but if so, I still don’t see how it would serve the best interests of documenting–even artistically–the incredible devastation wreaked upon these innocent villagers.
As photographers, each of us has a style. With some it is more fully developed than others. But even beginners have their own unique way of seeing. The task is to use our individual sense of style to say exactly what we intend to say with our photos. Of course not everyone will agree on how successful our efforts might be. But judging from the comment James posted, he is at ease with how he presented the images in this essay. And there are many who agree that his efforts were not only successful but brilliant. Perhaps an equal number feel it didn’t work. So who is right?
I haven’t a clue. But one thing I have learned from James’ essay and the ensuing discussion is to be ever vigilant in my own work that how I choose to shoot and present my photos for an essay will best serve the subject…at least in my eyes. I never want to become so locked into a “style” that I would take the chance of letting it get in the way of the substance of my essay. But who can judge that? We each have to do the best we can. No one can do it for us.
Patricia
“The aptitude of this forum has shrunk to a new depth.”
I believe the cliche you were looking for was “sunk to new depth.” And “aptitude?” You sure that’s the word you wanted?
Anyway… ;^}
Michael,
i don’t dislike you, so i’ll make an effort: stop being so pedantic, Marcin’s tried that dress on already and it left him only lonely.
Jim,
i don’t know how to take your comment, so if i’m taking it wrongly as: “whatever”, then stop reading this and i apologise, i really mean it!, but if it’s a comment of dismissal then, let me break this down for you:
Robert Capa is one of the founding fathers of the tribe that David belongs to.
Few photographers in this tribe have risked so much to release images that show the instances of injustice and more so that War is Hell. How many Magnum photographers died in the line of duty? Can people here really know so little about Capa? Mr. Propaganda, he was so driven?
Jim, you have very cutely leveraged a household quote to create a play on words relating to this gentlemen’s death, a father of David’s tribe. As a photographer you should know better.
You have reminded me of something I’ve long forgotten, the dirty, disgusting joke that got the boy that snickered it to us on the playground sent home for being so inhumanely insensitive. Your play on words was no different than that ten-year-old punk’s joke: ‘what colour was Christa Corrigan McAuliffe eyes?: Blue, one blew this way one blew that way‘. He was ten, how old are you Jim?
So yes Jim, I hope you note that you’ve shown no understanding, let alone respect for both a photographic hero, as well as a member of the house of a virtual family member’s house your throwing your feet on the kitchen table of right now. I hope you enjoyed making a significant Magnums hero’s death a punch-line in your slimy joke.
Care to offer the same joke to his family members Jim? How bout David?, your self-professed hero?
Shrunk or sunk, it’s a sad day for this forum.
Obviously I walked into the middle of a discussion that had gone beyond the issues raised by James’ essay. Sorry.
Patricia
Jim, i just googled “righteous indignation” so, i’m just going to say sorry.
Well, Joe, you’ve managed to raise the level of your indignation to silliness. Capa was no role model. Faking war photos isn’t very honorable in my opinion. So he helped found Magnum.So what?
I don’t dislike you either.
Marcin’s been left lonely? He seems quite engaged, accepted, embraced, even loved in these pages. I love him, anyway.
And pedantic? Pot–>kettle.
Obviously I walked into the middle of a discussion
————————————————-
I swear I read landmine, not discussion….. oops! (blame it on Jim and Joe) :-)))
Capa meant it physically Otherwise he would have said “if your …, you’re not committed enough”. (and certainly not emotionally, which is fine, but has never made a picture look better).
At the same time, physically does not mean inches close, or as close as you can. It means simply not being distant, anyway you care to define distant.
I think we all know when we are not “close” enough. If Capa said it to someone in person, I am sure that photographer recognized exactly why he couldn’t nail a shot, hearing that.
I feel there are obviously ways of getting close enough to threaten one’s health and or well being.
Doctors and nurses can get to close contracting disease. People can get to close and suffer psychologically.
The same applies to many professions and subjest matter for photographers I feel.
breaking the “one comment” rule once again…
continue here, please:
Nico – Janitor Of Lunacy (Live – Incognito)
Wow, Hi.
It’s now 9:37 pm my time and I just spent… 8 hours? reading through this discussion to get up to speed on what Photojournalism is and what Documentary photography is. And why anyone should be doing this at all.
My head hurts a bit from it all.. It seems like I sat through a late night class in college…
Anywho, I’d like to pipe in just a little here.
Here is how I understand the world of Photography:
You may not always make the most money doing it. You may have to work another job to support it.
If you’re smart and know how to market yourself and have made the connections, you may be able to support your obsession by shooting stories or having your personal projects printed by magazines that are in trade willing to pay you. My hope is that one day I’m able to support myself with my photography. I don’t want to be stuck to a studio shooting portraits and weddings for a living.
Telling stories with photographs has been around since the beginning. Although, stories may not have been the goal at the time. For instance, Someone here was saying looking through a Webb book and learning something isn’t what is intended. It’s the style and imagery that is the intended reason to look at it. I don’t agree entirely.
I believe publishers, Mags, papers, websites, will publish a photographer’s project, or hire a photographer for a particular project because they know they will shoot it in a style. They’re not looking for family vacation photos from the guided tour. They’re looking for the inner substance of a location or a people. The way that photographer’s mind and camera see it. Those images tell a story. tagged with a caption, they’re highly informative. without a caption, they’re pretty (or ugly) representations of some unknown world.
I’m sorry if I don’t sound coherent I’ve binged on espresso for about a month now and my mind is in hyperdrive.
I feel like buying a book of photos with no written story attached to them be it an informative caption or an essay of some kind, is what an art enthusiast might do. they’re not too interested in knowing anything about who or what was photographed but more interested in the feeling of emotion they get by looking at the photos.
I’m a learning addict. If I don’t learn something from what I’m looking at, I’m wasting time I could be doing more interesting things.
For instance, walking through a gallery and seeing neatly composed photos of the lines made by the doors on an old refridgerator, or the metal strip between carpet types in a doorway, or three leaves tacked to a wall, don’t evoke any response in my mind other than “why?” “what am I supposed to get from this”
Opening up a Nat Geo and seeing any photo essay paired with a fabulous story is something that gets me… The day I go to my mail box and find my Nat Geo sitting in there, I take it to my car and i sit there in the post office parking lot just flipping through the pages, just to see whats inside. I’m not reading them. Not yet. I do it late when I get back home. But I (personally) need that extra information with a photograph. I think reading a great fiction novel is fantastic because it allows your mind to create the imagery. reading a great story like one in NatGeo also evokes that same mechanism in my mind, but then I see a photo depicting what happened and I’m brought back to the real world. I’ve experienced something that photographer saw, the way that photographer saw it.
I personally think that ethics should be important in the presentation. I don’t alter my images any other than burning or dodging, adjusting color density or vividness, and playing with the contrast a bit. I do that because perhaps the environment wasn’t the best to be shooting in at that moment, or I’m incompetent in using my camera, and I don’t know how to properly shoot that situation? I get caught up in the tech a lot… It’s my belief if I can figure out how all the tech works, (how to use my tools in every way I can) maybe I’ll know how to get a desired result in a situation i’ve not come across. Maybe not though.
Earlier this summer I was reading through Joe McNally’s book the Hot Shoe Diaries because it tells me all the ways he knows how to use his flash… I’ve been much happier with my work now that I’ve figured out my flash and how I can use it. But what is my style? I don’t know I have one? Perhaps I have many?
I think every thing has a way it needs to be shot… I think you can’t shoot everything in the world the same way and expect to appeal to your intended audience all of the time. To use a photo that comes to mind from time to time – somewhere from earlier this year a photo was published here of a dock or pier. it was all out of focus. Now, that may be more of an emotional photo. but would an entire photo essay about a manned mission to Mars photographed in that fashion be acceptable? If the first ever photos of a manned mission to Mars were photographed all out of focus, would it not seem like a failure on someone’s part? Theres a story to be told and it was lost in style.
For everything photographic there is a time and place. And at the expectations of the greater audience, a pecking order is established and the story, the documenting of an event comes before the artist’s view of the same event.
I personally want my work to appeal to mass audience. I am currently a student at the undergrad level – after having experienced the “real world” of working to survive for 8 years, I’ve come to school to learn more about myself and what my place in the world should be. I’ve done personal stories at my own expense and I’ve not found an outlet that gives a damn about what I’ve shot.. Was it my technique? my style? my abilities that kept me back? I don’t really know what my issue is. I just know that every time I think I’ve failed is another time to adjust and keep trying something. I don’t ever think I’ll stop learning about my self or my world. I don’t know who i’ll be when I die, but it’s my hope to be someone who’s as well remembered for my work as someone like Dorthea Lange. Was it her style of the migrant mother or the fact that “Life is hell” was written all over that woman’s face while trying to comfort her children?
Sorry for the ramble,
I’m not ever quite sure what it means to be a photographer…
and that took me an hour to write…
Jason Houge…
“I just know that every time I think I’ve failed is another time to adjust and keep trying something. I don’t ever think I’ll stop learning about my self or my world.”
Nice. :)
Welcome to burn.
good light,
a.
Jason,
I can’t believe you just read this thread from start to finish in one sitting. Seriously? :))
For the past two months buzz has been the message and discussion forum for burn. Usually David will post a new topic after a week or two. This is the longest we have had one space for all discussions.
Now that you’re all caught up here you can start on each of the essays and singles and all comments!
Let’s hear your take on the work that has been shown.
Go Packers! I’m from Wisconsin.
By the way, not sure if Capa said it in french, might be worth checking on that, but in that language, it’s unmistakably spoken as literally as can be, speaking of 1)A photo, not photography, and 2) not near enough:
« Si une photo n’est pas bonne, c’est qu’elle n’est pas prise d’assez près »
Robert Capa
Nico Sings Chelsea Girls in the Chelsea Hotel
Under James’s essay:
He’d been in Burma to continue his work on Burma, amid great risk and danger, to tell the story that he’d begun before and that he’d hoped to tell: about the people of burma, particularly under the repressive Junta. During that time, the country was devastated by the cyclone…
——————————————-
This is a fallacy (great risk and danger). James on his site and in an interview, described the way he worked in Burma, which his 47 marvelous pictures show (again on his site gallery) confirm. He wanders around, in places, as far as I can see in these 47 pictures, that are open also to ANY tourist (even the packaged tour type).
It’s very simple, there is no risk or danger in taking photos in Burma, if you take them, that means they (police, authorities) let you take them. If they don’t want you to take them, you don’t take them. The place is full of informers, and plainclothes police. You cannot go very far, in urban areas, if what you are shooting is considered too sensitive. I doubt that anyone, if being told not to shoot anymore, will be left to his (her) own devices to start doing so again freely (on the same sensitive subjects). And you need to compose with that, because being caught a second time will most likely see you out of the country, with very little chance to come back soon, legally.
This said, this is not North Korea, you can really shoot a lot of stuff freely, and outsmart the auhtorities a little while. Not long though, if the shooting and reporting is carried on investigatively.
I am not sure if James is a conflict photographer, there was a japanese man shot dead taking pictures a year before during the monk’s march. So in times of heavily armed repression, as in anywhere, one must beware. The Cyclone was not a time of armed repression. James did not say if he had been forbidden to shoot. I have a feeling that there was such mayhem for a few hours/days, that this proved to be a window of opportunity, for him to shoot without feeling too hounded or watched. For a while at least.
There are a few investigative videos on youtube, usually in jungle borders areas where tribal insurgency allows passage for reporters and film crews, outside of the Junta’ eye. I have not seen anything shot in urban centers -save the monks march, from which a movie was made- even investigative photo essays are almost non-existant. And when you were privy to meet independant minds there, or shoot in places you “shouldn’t”, comes the question of not revealing too much, lest you endanger the very people who opened their door/neighborood to you.
I simply did not get from what James had shown, from his 3 trips, that he was doing investigative work.
About the movie consisting of snippets of videos taken on small cams by marchers and courgaeous citizens, see at:
http://burmavjmovie.com/
Panos, Nico 1965….. The Goddess… She is not saying that she loves us, but we are…. In love, because, for fucking crissakes, WHAT NOT TO LOVE!
Hi Cathy, do you still live in WI?
I’m from Green Bay.
I’m not that new here. It’s just been months since I’ve had a post. I often read what’s happening and I almost always take a look at the work published. I don’t say much because I haven’t felt that I was in a position to make any type of judgement. I sit in Photo art classes and Struggle with critique. Often the work says nothing to me. It’s often too conceptual or there’s a link I’m missing to what was being explored. I think everyone here has a much better opinion on work presented because they’re comfortable with their own abilities to talk about it from a solid standpoint. I’ve submitted to burn, oh I don’t know how many times now for individuals and essays. But I never hear back about them. I won’t give up though. I know something must stick sometime. I love it here. There are so many people with such different schools of thought. It can get overwelming. But I enjoy the task of sorting it out and feeling with my gut what I should take sides with. I didn’t see much of anything mentioned about it on here, but it’s my hope to attend the at home workshop this Oct. I think it’ll be the experience that sends me on my way. I think it’ll be a pivotal point in my wee life.
Someone here said that NatGeo and the like already has people like McCurry, DAH, Allard to shoot the look they shoot. And that if you want to make it in this world you need something crazy unique to set you appart. I don’t think that’s all true. These men (Sorry DAH) are not gods. They will either retire or pass on eventually. Who will fill their void? Their replacements may not share the same look, or feel in their work. But they will need to be able to
speak to the world. Appeal to a mass, and have a charisma. I’ve met many MANY news photogs. They shoot their shot and move on. That’s not the way a great like McCurry or Allard would do it I suppose. They’re passion becomes telling the story, following the people. Touching people’s lives. They care where the average news photog wants … What. I’m not sure. I know when I sit beside them and they’re not excited to meet another photog and speak to them I’m not on their level. It’s also noticable when they are just doing it because it’s their job to do so. It’s monotonous. They’ve got their deadlines and they can’t take indulgence in their subject’s life.
Mike – you reading this? My great friend Mike Peters is who got me hooked on DAH’s old blog. Before Burn. Anyway Mike and I are attending a summer camp class we presented to at UW Green Bay about photo journalism. This is the final class. I gave them a list of sites to check out and Burn was one of them. They’re competing in a national competition. I hope the best for them. I hope we taught them well!!
Well peace all and good night.
Joe,
Could you explaine what dress make me lonely? I have many “lost in translation” in this forest of comments. What example I am?
peace
Marcin,
as Jim mentioned it was just me being silly while experiencing a fit of indignation. Getting caught out by Jim is pretty humiliating, so i promise you the experience has been painful enough not to repeat. But i’m sorry to you as well. Cheers.
Jim,
i don’t disagree with the Capa scandal, but i still don’t think his memory should be reduced to a joke, but i’ve not done a good job to prevent that so i’ll just walk away from that for now.
Joe
Now I understand nothing. But do not worry. Mostly I have no time to read carefully all comments, so for me it is easy to not understand.
Anyway I don’t understand why you feal sorry to me.
But ok.
if a photographer makes a book with blurb, is it being economical with the truth to claim his/her book has been “published”?
It’s late. Not sleeping. Too much Espresso…
A haiku by Jason Houge
hands and eyes tell us
time frozen and burned on gel
in dark light appears
Interesting point, Ben. I can’t speak for anyone else but when DAH and I write about my book, Falling Into Place, we’re referring to the one we hope will come out under Aperture, powerHouse, Trolley or one of the other photo publishing houses. Yes, I have a Blurb book but that is simply the maquette I will be presenting to a publisher this autumn.
Now that’s how we’re using the term for MY book but I know there are countless photogs out there who create Blurb books to sell. You can get a sampling by going to
http://www.blurb.com/bookstore/
I guess with the relatively new option of online self-publishing, the boundaries have softened.
Patricia
Herve, that’s interesting. We don’t know what language Capa thought in, when he first thought or said that famous quote. I’ve read he said it a lot, possibly in different languages. His native tongue was Hungarian.
The Magnum site says he is American, but “Born Andre Friedmann to Jewish parents in Budapest in 1913, he studied political science at the Deutsche Hochschule für Politik in Berlin. Driven out of the country by the threat of a Nazi regime, he settled in Paris in 1933.”
It seems like the french may be a translation, or a second / third language, but if at the time he thought it in french, it is interesting that the first “enough” isn’t there..
« Si une photo n’est pas bonne, c’est qu’elle n’est pas prise d’assez près »
‘If a photo isn’t good, it is because it wasn’t taken near enough.”
But Eve Arnold wrote “And to beginning photographers, including me, he said, “If your pictures aren’t good enough, you aren’t close enough.”
JIM –
also from Eve Arnold on R. Capa
“Perhaps his real legacy to photo- graphy is the idea of the photo co- operative, which started with Magnum in Paris and then went on to be copied by many others worldwide… By gathering in groups, the individual photo- graphers became stronger to a point where we were able to force newspapers, magazines and book publishers to permit us to own our own copyright (as do authors). Capa spearheaded this battle in France and in America for the personal ownership of copyright.”
ben – I think there are many a self published, marketed and distributed book out there which qualify, but certainly many more which don’t.
JASON:
It’s late. Not sleeping. Too much Espresso…
—————————-
Panos has found a buddy, or if Jim allows me, an acolyte!!! :-)
8:30am in LA…
starting with Espresso…:))))
Mike B. it was a pleasure talking to u on the phone last night…
Have fun in Frisco… see u soonest…
Can we go back to the discussion of style?
We seem to have reduced style to a matter of post-processing or the “look” of the photo, but a photographer’s style has to be more than a function of software or enlarging equipment. James Whitlow Delano’s Burma pictures have a style beyond the choice of black and white and the diffuse effect — but they are obviously contributors to his style. You wouldn’t mistake a Delano photo for one shot by Lauren Greenfield, even if Delano was using color.
Choice of subject matter is a component of style. David Alan Harvey explored the Spanish- and Portuguese- speaking world for decades, and it’s hard to conjure images of Brazil or Cuba in the mind’s eye without seeing his pictures. And even if those photos had been processed by Delano, I am pretty sure we could still tell they were shot by Harvey. But even then, it’s still less a matter of place than the range of things kicking around in a photographer’s head that draws him to a particular scene, how that scene is accessed and presented, and the metaphorical (not physical) distance between the photographer and the subject (subject as both the thing captured in camera and the subject matter at hand). Harvey is “close,” Alex Webb is “distant,” even if they are both using 28 mm lenses six feet from the subject. Another word for all of this stuff is sensibility.
What draws the photographer to the scene? It could be the light (Webb), a visual pun or human moment (Cartier-Bresson), casual intimacy (Greenfield), epic grandeur (Salgado), poetry (Harvey), seeking the iconic (McCurry), gritty disaffection (Kratochvil). Most photographers have something driving them that is the foundation for their creativity and is constant throughout their work, even if the individual photos don’t look the same.
Style, sensibility, authorship — whatever you call “it” — is hard to develop and refine, but it defines the best artists. The photographers above have it. Hemingway had it, Picasso had it. This ineffable thing is what draws you to their work. Some artists have it, most don’t — and those that don’t can still have long, successful, happy careers. Style is one’s own thing.
Soul of Athens Series – Maisie Crow
Maybe some folks don’t consider this kind of work “cutting edge” but good story telling is good story telling is good story telling. And after seeing this, I called my Mom. I’m all for getting wrapped around the personal axle and stretching but I hope to see work like this here as well. “Simple,” straightforward, powerful and all about the story.
panos… we need to meet soon… i will call you…
Preston..
I think you need to separate style and authorship. Did you see the quote I posted?
“The power of our Muse lies in her meaninglessness. Even the style can turn one into a slave if one does not run away from it, and then one is doomed to repeat oneself. The only thing that counts is curiosity. For me personally, this is what creativity is about. It will express itself less in the fear of doing the same thing over again than in the desire not to go where one has already been.”
Gueorgui Pinkhassov
Tom,
thanks for the link, incredible, beautiful conception,execution and edit.
Thanks for the Soul of Athens link, Tom.
A very strong, emotional piece where the audio nicely supported the visuals- no gimmicks, no gadgets,
no particularly unique visual style on the part of the photographer yet the piece has a staying power.
Interestingly, a half hour after watching it I find it is the audio that is being retained in my mind
more than any single image apart from the cemetery picture.
Since seeing it a year or so ago, I have strong feelings for an image series by Phillip Toledano
called, ” Days with my Father”
http://www.dayswithmyfather.com/#/1
The navigation is a bit funky in that you have to mouseover the bottom of the image to advance the
frame.
Can someone tell me why David never mentions his upcoming workshops?
I just found this online…
http://www.momentaworkshops.com/sanfran09.php
DAH has written here about an upcoming trip to San Francisco but I’ve not seen/heard that he is teaching there.
Why not post all upcoming workshop info HERE???
Cathy his workshops are listed under the workshops link at the top of burn. He Adds new ones through out the year. You can also set up an email notification to get updates on new workshops. It’s also advertized in some magazines. I suppose my thoughton it would be, if you’re really motivated enought. You will find them and find a way to attend.
cathy… just check the page titled “workshops” right here on burn… it’s all there…
Anton, Jason,
Yes, I am glad to see workshop info is being posted and kept up to date….thanks to Anton I’m sure. For a LONG time the workshop info was not updated (all thru road trips) so at some point I stopped looking under WORKSHOPS. I am now on the mailing list. Glad to see there now is a system and it’s working!
Actually I used to find out about many of the workshops (such as Julia Dean in LA and the India and Bangkok workshops) long before David posted them here. I would often post them myself so all would have the opportunity to attend.
I’m glad I can “retire” from that job now :))
Cricket cricket cricket cricket…
Panos, do you make your own espresso? I discovered if you boil finely ground espresso for some time untill the water thickens a little and filter out the grounds. It makes a nice amount of drink. However, it’s messy and takes a long time. The house smells nice though!
Albertina
Jim is not the only one who did not care for the presentation of the essay. Yes we pick on Jim a lot for being negative. But he so not always the only one. And sometimes he has a point.
I apologize to DAH and the rest of the readers including James Witlow Delano for making a second post on his essay comment. I meant to post it here. Sorry very tired.
If DAH or Anton can move it to BUZZ I would be grateful.
Sorry all….. Need sleep
Tom…
Thanks for sharing the link to the Soul of Athens Series.
I’m always in the lookout for ways other people use to tell a story.
Cheers.
Thank you, Tom, for giving us the opportunity to see that masterful body of work by Maisie Crow. I can’t recall ever before seeing such a successfully drawn portrait, especially in multimedia. It needs to be published here on Burn.
Patricia
Check out Maisie Crow’s website. She is the real thing.
http://www.maisiecrow.com/
Patricia
Maisie Crow , _ I saw the work on aphotoeditor and I immediately hugged my wife and took my kids to the beach!
I thought the very personal nature of the essay introduced by Mark,
http://www.dayswithmyfather.com/#/1
touched me more than the polished PJ approach of Maisie. I think he was able to show the indomitable dignity of being human, despite the decay of old age, and all thru mere glimpses at the old man’s appearance (but also beautiful portraits), his own love for him, with a restraint that made us not voyeurs, but feeling invited to share in the humanity of itall. A wonderful gift…
Maisie is just a bit more professional, looking outside in, and therefore, make us intruders as well, only excused by the fact we were indeed supposed to see it, as it’s her (very well done) job.
incredible essay, Herve. Thanks for that link.
Mtomaly (Mark) posted it last night, Jim. I just copied and pasted it again. The auhtor is Philippe Toledano.
I think there is as much great “submerged” photography as “emerging”. Harder to access and swift thru, but I’d welcome BURN to be a bit more of a venue, sometimes, for photos, and the people taking them, that are bound to be off the profession’s radar. Too much “good pupil” (premiers de la classe) photography shown here.
IMO.
…but I’d welcome BURN to be a bit more of a venue, sometimes, for photos, and the people taking them, that are bound to be off the profession’s radar…
Herve,:)
“Burn” , is not a detective ( i think )…
The “out of the radar” people should also try to reach out to Burn…
Imagine if everyone keeps the pictures into a closet, waiting to be discovered…
Now, given the state of flux and struggling in the medium, I am sure emerging is for many quite synonymous to being submerged as well anyway!
But I won’t retract the “good pupil” comment. That one stands!
Hola, Panos. I think david receives a lot of stuff from “out of the radar”. OTOH, it would be interesting to know how many who submitted were scouted out (which I think was Bob’s domain, or still is).
Most likely the universe of taking pictures has a lot more “Lartigues”, and Atget than we care to imagine. Good, once in a while, some are being discovered.
… scouted out …!!!???
Herve who scouted what out…????????
Actually Bob brought “out of the radar” photogs like Jukka and more…!!!
I see the exact opposite happening…1000 essays and 10 of them of people u know…
you are exaggerating to the fullest plus blaming the innocent…
:)))
smile, take it easy …
Maybe there should be an “off the radar” thread where folks post links to essays by off the radar photographers.
By some amazing grace I found a 10 dollar copy of Davidson’s Photographs (1978) in fine shape..wonderful to see a handful of images that are new to me, but there is text in the beginning written by BD talking in very personal terms about his path into photography. I don’t know if any of that is online, will look Monday and if not will post a few exerpts in scribbling when I can. Anyone who cares about BD’s work should have a chance to read it, and the book is fairly pricy these days unless you find an ex library copy.
Recently transcribed an interview with Susan Meiselas that was on the radio in the 1970s after Carnival Strippers came out. I sent it to SM and she okayed me putting it up on scribbing. w
Am going to wait to post it as there is a chance she will also have time to do a Q&A with me in August.
Not sure what you are saying, Panos. Bob is a great talent scout for BURN. That is the point I was making at first. There are many ways to skin a cat. One can submit of one’s own, one can be scouted out, or even linked in a thread, like Maisie. I would have never submitted if Patricia had not insisted I do. It’s always funny to see how someone gets noticed, any art, any medium. As much indirect as direct. Life is accidents, serendipity, dancing around, unassuming (vs eager), and so is photography.
Inversely, Ok, I do understand that for many, photography is not that at all, but the eagerness to show talent, be employed, recognized, elected into the profession, backed up by serious resumes.
Jason mentionned submitting again and again. AFAIC, his photos deserve to be entered. Others too, I am sure. And just like I added…. Sometimes.
Anyway, you are one post late: I already mentionned everyone is most likeey in a state of being submerged… ;-).
Jim
Maybe there should be an “off the radar” thread where folks post links to essays by off the radar photographers.
——————————–
There is already, it’s called the internet…. (no, seriously).
Smile? I was smiling! here’s why:
http://www.bryanharveyfilms.com/film/cuba.html
thanks to David Mc Gowan. I saw that (with some damned good photography too) on his site humanfiles.com., where Bryan’s site (with some cool photography too) is linked.
arghhhh…. Sorry for the parentheses repeat.
Jim, I completely misread what you wrote, like a thread for people to post their work (not that of others). Apologies.
Last post for the week-end…. ES MUSS SEIN!
Recent interview with Alec Soth at Too Much Chocolate is … HERE
Thanks to Mark for posting and Herve for reposting the link to Phillip Toledano’s essay, “Days with my Father”
http://www.dayswithmyfather.com/#/1
What an extraordinarily touching, beautifully photographed and intimately captioned body of work. This is one of those hidden masterpieces that speaks to photographers and non-photographers alike. Once seen, never forgotten.
Herve, I don’t find myself inclined to compare Phillip’s essay on his father to Maisie Crow’s essay on a man whom I believe is no relation to her. Not only are we talking about totally different reasons for creating the work but we’re also seeing the difference between a fully mature photographer/individual and one who is young and just starting out. Both about old men whose wives have died but, to my way of thinking, that’s the only thing they have in common. And one is purely still photos while the other is multimedia. Both wonderfully realized…
My god there is amazing work out there. Please, let’s keep sharing links to the hidden treasures we discover.
Patricia
TODAY I want to hug you ALL…
Today, I want to be MARIA the hug friend ,MR.HARVEY’S NY neighbor…
I LOVE YOU ALL…please…keep rolling…with links,comments,music,drinks,food,photos, roadtrips…
LOVE for all…kisses to your friend our PATRICIA…Thank you for your posts…
THANK YOU ALL photoBURNIANS,civilians, universe…
P.S Where are you KATIE? DAVIDB? MIKER ( I miss your father’s stories)…MYGRACIE,AUDREY,LASSAL,
KATHARINA, REIMAR(how is my mill?)…SA,A,W….so many…out of internet again…
KEEP THE FLAMES UP…and don’t forget …spread the LOVE…like butter:)))
MR.DAH drink that Tuscany for us…bottoms up!!!
photography is a strange identity shifting experience..just in from shooting and I am feeling like a ‘real me’ doesn’t exist. have always felt like a natural chameleon, my ‘true’ state, adaptable to all, but tonite it feels like there is no way to connect to all these people I am trying to connect to without adapting so far that the original vanishes..not sure I am talking about feeling false, more like feeling so expansive that there is no anchor to one sense of self..a good thing maybe, just need refining and rooting. or could mean an end is in sight for my piece..makes me think of something Susan Meiselas said in the 70s interview, that there came a time when she couldn’t return to shooting her project because she had to leave too much behind to do so..
anyone follow?
Mariask?!?
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
ha ha ha
if true….
LOVE it….
x0x
Erica,
What you are experiencing, as you explain it and I understand it, reminds me a bit of what actors and actresses sometimes experience… they throw themselves so far into their roles that they become confused about whatever ‘self’ they may have independently of the roles…
My own feeling is that your sense of ‘expansiveness’ is the beginning of a kind of enlightenment… and the Western obsession with the ‘self’, personal identity, and personal boundaries is largely based on illusion and misunderstanding… sounds to me as if you are on the verge of some major new discoveries and insights… why resist it?
Erica…
Just know that you’re not alone in dealing with this…
I am sure that you feel differently today about your process and approach towards your subjects and photography in general than you did five or ten years ago… I am also sure the same will be true in five and ten years from now…
In ten years you might be able to look back and feel and think that this or that you could have handled differently. But you are who you are right here and right now. You’re a thoughtful person and you’re trying to be honest both with yourself and with your subjects. Don’t despair…
After all what matters most is the trip and not the destination… keep on shooting and sharing with us your thoughts… enjoy the process as much as you can…
Cheers…
Mornin’..
awake after a good night’s sleep with regular self still here :)
Thodoris – first..no despair..but very sound point about impermanence..what an important thing to remember. Thank you..
Sidney – I’d live to explore this – what you are saying about actors – more deeply. Is it a well known phenomenon? Does it have a name?
I found myself last night thinking of the mantra “I’m not the body, I’m not the mind, Immortal Self I am.”
Just had a moment of clarity on this..I have a desire to be rooted in something I know but haven’t yet manifested on a consistent basis, and that is this..despite all these worldly aspects and roles we manifest in the play of life (the lila), I believe (know) that the true Self is unchanging / undying and beyond the roles there is a true self, and that true self is in essence the same as all others’ essence. That connection of true selves is what I am after..not only to photograph others ‘unmasked’ if you will, but for me to be able to come from that level of purity as I connect, and not rely on lesser truths to connect.
Last night shooting I was a bit ‘off’ and was relying on some of these lesser truths to get the photos. And one of the persons who I was shooting, someone who is becoming something of a friend was drunk and she, usually quite ordinary, was like a shaman or high priestess, speaking about my true self..almost like she was the voice of the universe reminding me knock it off and settle back in to my true self.
Thank you Sidney..
ah..last nite I was bouncing between duality and the truth of oneness..
a well made shrt film …….. must watch
Title :- what is that
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNK6h1dfy2o
Now, that made me cry, good tears, Vivek, thanks.
Erica, what you feel and share with us is to be experienced, not arrived to by thought and comprehension. Experience, not facts, is knowledge.
Patricia, I did not compare Phillipe and Maisie’s, just talked of their work in the same post…. As you did! :-)
Photography is to be aware of the little sparrow in front of us, and…. having, Arghhhh!, to shoot it 21 times in the chance we have a decent record of what we experienced so perfectly.
Going out to shoot a 22nd time…. ;-)
vivek. What a wonderful little film. So simple and yet so full. good stuff.
john
I’ve been following this girl’s show because she’s really been taking-to-task all the religious discrimination of women and homosexuality by showing the specific conflicts embedded in the doctrines matched against the realities of the world. Her favourite topic is evolution.
That being said, i never saw this rant coming:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pSdZlPKHpUQ
if you even remotely feel entertained by this you need to check out some of here other shows, she’s brutal.
vivek: Loved that link thanks. :-)
Jesus. There’s 7 minutes I’ll never get back. (yes, only seven… could not bear the full 10!)
Reason for posting this drivel, Joe? So the girl apparently has just learned that life and human nature is complicated, she rants like an unsophisticated child and this impressed you enough to post it here for others to suffer through? Very odd.
ALL…
just back home from Tuscany…give me a chance to go over all the comments, get some coffee, and i will jump in for a few comments…i also have a long overdue post to write…
wishing all of you my best…back soonest…
cheers, david
JASON…
nice to have you back here…i just happen by random to see one of your comments on the fact that the “old icons” will of course pass on…surely…retire?? never…i have seriously never seen a committed photographer “retire”…the “passing on” is the only “retirement” and if the photographer has truly lived the life , then their work should still speak…however, my main job here on Burn is to make sure that Jason and all of the other Jasons have a voice for the future…the beauty of discovery mixed with wisdom is a tough combination to beat…
cheers, david
I think in a generation the work of the “old icons” will stand out in stark contrast to whatever is left of photography then. Think of the changes in photography over the last 30 years and then try to project where photography might be trillions of photos into the future.
bla bla bla.
Oh god, Jim, you sound like one of those boring old farts in the 60s decrying that rock and roll crap. They were proven wrong, just like you will be Jim. I bet if you were alive back then you would be the first to tell Picasso his work is crap cause it doesn’t look like the “masters”. Jim, you are boring, a fossil, charging at change like Don Quixote charged at windmills. You are irrelevant and reading you is like listening to any one who opposes evolution in favor of the status quo. What you dont get, Jim, is that the old masters were change agents themselves, you are just a stick in the mud.
FYI
http://www.3rdward.com/fallgroupshow09/
A Search for the Best Emerging Photographers
Am personally not submitting as I’ve shown here and I know one of the judges, but it’s a good opportunity if you are trying to build an exhibition history with having been shown reputable curators…there is a 10 fee but could be worse.
I’m not sure Hip Hop improved on Rock and Roll.
Rafal, there is a logical conclusion to everything. I suspect the only thing that will endure is the work of the “Icons” of the 20th Century.
Rafal, is Jim not allowed to have and express his own opinions? He didn’t attack you, why do you feel the need to attack him? Just prove him wrong with your own work. That’s the most effective response.
Patricia
DAH: How do you ever leave Tuscany. . . Italy after these workshops?! I was in Florence the last three days and am now on the coast further north in a resort town called Monterosso al Mare in the Cinque Terre. Coming from Bucharest Italy is quite nice! Although Romanians are essentially like Italians being Latin, Romania is just so far behind due to Communism. Not just economically, but psychologically too. The Italians are all relaxed! In Romania there is some serious tension created by the fitze crowd–those with lots of money. It’s al hard core machismo there. Anyways, I’ve been testing out my M8.2. . . beautiful women keep ending up filling my frame!
Best,
Davin
Relaxed? Well yes sometimes too much: ask Mr Silvio Berlusconi…
Davin..
I love Cinque Terre, though must be a little crowded now. If you walk through all 5 towns there is a beach where people swim au naturelle :)
ERICA,
Thanks for the link, but what’s up with all the fee’s for grants and comps?
I’ve been looking at a couple of grants/comps and some charge over 50 USD. For this one it’s 10 USD per image and they recommend submitting at least three images and you can submit up to 10 images for a total cost of 100 USD. Greater chance of course, but is it turning in to a business?
I really have to say thank you to David here. For not charging a cent!
Cheers
I know, I know..
In this situation I’d say submit one piece if that’s what is in the budget, if it seems like a good opportunity..
Personally I have stopped entering 99% of the contests, because of money but mostly because I felt like i was on a hamster wheel..I was doing very well in them, and keeping up with all the submissions seemed like it was turning into a full time job and I started to wonder if I continued to do well when I could quit? so i figured no time like the now.. but grants I need to do and there are many that are without charge still.exhibitions like this are this in between area now, because there is a $500 award / membership to the studio and all that..otherwise I wouldn’t suggest paying for an exhibition opportunity.
sorry, and..
A similar exhibition opportunity that I’d support is at The Camera Club of NY – good because it a great institution, but also the jurors for the national show are fantastic – I entered and was shown when Larry Fink was the juror. This year I didn’t participate because Henry Horenstein was the juror and I had just shown him the piece I am working on for feedback..that’s a troubling thing to me, the more people I know the more I restrict some of my opportunities, because it seems unethical if I have private emails with that person and I know that they like my work..but point is, if you are looking to build exhibition history, I think this is a good option. Essentially, I feel a small processing fee is acceptable if you admire the venue and the juror. I’m fairly old fashioned, but I think exhibition curated by the right person is a valuable asset to the photographer’s path.
Icons and hostory of P….
What would be nice on BURN is for someone (I think david mentionned once someone-Joe?- was to write up on it) to guide us thru the many differen trends and concepts in the field of photography in the last 50 years (roughly).
And even better, many essays would really benefit from a little introduction, perspective, as to the references the BURN readers might want to consider to help them appreciate the work better, or at the worse, make a bit of sense of it.
Many essays I see here, all probably, do not seem like work only martians would submit. In the field of Art, there are very few loose atoms. Chopin, Van Gogh come to mind, but I am sure others would discuss that even they can be put in perspective within their own discipline. Not sure who can write these intros, maybe all of us, and in sync with the essay/photo author.
I think BURN could be a lot more interactive, and participative actually, and less, much less, bloggy.
David, still thinking of the big subject on “TRADITIONS” in photography? That should keep us going for a while…. Jim and Rafal, at least! :-))))
Just got a nice phone call.
The Great train robber Ronnie Biggs has been denied parole and will probably die in prison soon. The surviving members of the Clash and a whole bunch of other rock/pop/acting folk are recording a single to raise funds for him tommorow. I have been invited down to the studio to shoot the whole thing. I get to shoot whatever i want, and i will almost certainly give them a whole bunch of shots to use to publicise the single. hopefully I will get enough shots to make a little story.
Watch this space I guess.
John
Herve,
agreed..awhile back when I suggested that DAH write an intro perspective/why he chose/ for essays, he agreed it would be helpful..probably just time constraints, but I can see an immense benefit to burn and the community if it can be managed.
but the idea to have a little history of photography in the last 50 years summary is neat too.
Erica, the message you wrote earlier about shifting your self. I know that feeling quite well and I think, over the past couple of years, I’ve found myself and my substratus. I’m a highly adaptive person. I have my personal rules and I use my faith to keep it all in check. The Native American feeling is to tell ones story a person needs to take a part in the life of who they’re telling the story of. I agree. If I were photographing a addict, I don’t think I need to do the drugs a addict might be taking because my experience may not reflect theirs. However becoming a trusted person or maybe not? But someone they interact with might give you a better understanding of who they are and how their interact with others versus sitting back and taking spy photos from the shield of a car. As for me, I love an “adventure” last year that meant following a guy who was riding his bike across the country with his dog. I followed him from green bay, wi to Sault Ste. Marie, MI but I didn’t ride beside him. I would have died! Instead I drove and this afforded me more time with my subject.
I think another way of understanding this feeling is to watch younger teachers. In elementary school, teachers seem to take on some child-like behaviour. I’ve often heard this phrase spoken among the “highly sucessful” wealthy: “you are the equivilant of the five people you keep around you.” It means that your base, your center is based on the people you interact with most. I agree to some extent, however if you have a faith basis that you can check with, to refocus yourself with, you can control the influence you experience. Faith does not mean you have to believe in a god or any higher power, it means you have a means of setting rules for your life, you are able to relate to them, it helps you clear your thoughts and focus on the important aspect you are dealing with more easily.
DAH,
I’m glad you confirmed my suspicion: that a photographer in love with why they do wouldn’t retire. I feel at this point in my life that if I ever stopped shooting, I’d have nothing to live for. Nothing to look forward to. And it’s been my experience that when someone loses that drive, because they’ve been stripped of their will, they don’t live very long. I plan to shoot even after i’m gone. Someone needs to make a definitive documentary of what really happens when they die!
And thank you as well. I look forward to the day I can work on an essay with you.
DAH,
Please look for an email I sent you maybe a day or so ago. I found something a bit unnerving and it affects you, Marcin, John Vink, Steve McCurry, myself and others.
Dang iPhone auto correct. Why=why as in in love with what they do
John Gladdy,
Hope you enjoy the Biggs bash! If imprisonment is not just to punish but to reform then what is the point of incarcerating a dying man if not revenge by the establishment?
Michael Shields, an innocent young man, in prison for the attempted murder of a Bulgarian waiter after a football match, is also at the mercy of the English justice system – God help him. Everyone knows that he is innocent but Secretary of State for Justice, Jack Straw, hasn’t made his final decision yet despite being told that he has the power to pardon Michael. He won’t even let him out on licence until a decision has been made; so not much hope for Ronnie Biggs. Everyone, feel free to read about Michael’s case and let Jack Straw know what you think.
Mike.
herve said:
“What would be nice on BURN is for someone (I think david mentionned once someone-Joe?- was to write up on it) to guide us thru the many differen trends and concepts in the field of photography in the last 50 years (roughly).”
call me dumb, but why don’t you just buy a book?
Jason
interesting take on the experience. for me, it is closer to the practice in non dualism of neti – neti, which means “neither this, nor that”..applied here would mean that all these identities, none are the real self nor are they unreal..you can’t identify with one or all without entering into delusion, but the understanding of this comes not from logic but from the experience of oneness..for some reason the other night I was acting as if we were separate..a feeling foreign to me and not my nature and it caused me to feel unsettled, but it was a good reminder to remember what I know. certainly a very good practice in being -awake- is in the role of photographer. a waking, walking mediation of oneness, if you will.
A Rumination
This is not a history, nor even a sketch, of photography over the last 100 years (or even the last 50! To some people, 50 years may seem like a long time… once you’re over 60, ’50 years ago’ feels more like ‘contemporary’ than ‘historical’). Better to leave that to others far better qualified than me. My knowledge and awareness of photography, like my knowledge and experience of so many things, is fragmentary, idiosyncratic, parochial… and though I still try to encounter and understand new things and stretch my own limitations (why else would I follow ‘Burn’?), the truth is I like what I like (though of course that changes and evolves through time)… and attempting to have a ‘comprehensive’ or ‘balanced’ view of anything is something I gave up when I gave up being an academic. There’s a lot of photography, both ‘traditional’ and ‘modern’ that doesn’t interest me much and doesn’t speak to me. My problem, I guess… certainly not yours!
Humans as a group, while amazingly talented, adaptable, and resilient, do have limitations in their sensory awareness and ability to process information. Just for the moment, I’m speaking from a biological perspective here. Some people have better hearing than others, some a highly developed olfactory sense, some better eyesight… but none of us can really appreciate what it would be like to live in the rich universe of odors that nearly every dog experiences as a genetic birthright. None of us comes close to seeing with the acuity of a hawk. Raccoons have very poor eyesight, but something like 80% of their forebrain is wired to their paws, and they have a highly developed tactile sense… they ‘see’ objects by turning them over in their highly articulated hands.
Size and distance are also issues… telescopes and microscopes have extended our awareness and ability to observe outward to planets and galaxies, and down to microbes, viruses, and atomic structure. But day to day, most of us live in a world that is circumscribed by our five senses, combined of course with memory and desire. We also have biological needs, for water, food, sleep, and body temperature control which put severe constraints on our behavior… some part of every day is devoted to trying to ingest liquids and food, sleeping, trying to stay warm or cool off. These things all shape our lives and our awareness in ways that are really inescapable, however much we may wish or dream otherwise. And finally, the ultimate limitation… each individual must die. Before modern times, that meant life-spans of 40 years or less… now we are up to averages a little over 75 to 80 in the most developed countries (with women living longer), but that does not change the finality of death.
The ancient Greeks thought that ‘Man is the measure of all things’… sooner or later, our point of reference is ourselves, the world that we perceive and live in. Astronomers may spend a lot of time thinking about distant galaxies, and microbiologists may hang out a lot on the level of viruses… some historians’ imaginations and waking hours are firmly rooted in the milieu of decades or centuries past… but really they all ultimately revolve around the little bubbles that are individual human bodies, minds, and egos. The extent to which those egos and minds have expanded as humans have evolved, how far they have come over the centuries, is something truly remarkable to contemplate. Just for example, although I have no concrete scientific ‘evidence’, my belief is that awareness of and sensitivity to subtle differences in color is something that has evolved in humans in fairly recent times, along with incredible advances in the technology of dyeing, printing, and paints… but also stimulated in mutual feedback loops by Impressionist and Post-Impressionist painting, the development of fashion, and the ubiquitous presence of advertising.
One reason I am bringing up these very basic ideas (please forgive the pedagogical style, I am still an academic “in recovery”) is because I recently looked up what had become of someone I went to high school with back in the early 60s… a girl who was blind from birth but who managed to complete ‘mainstream’ high school (long, long before this was legally mandated or there was any special assistance available), go on to mainstream college, graduate school, and a career as a writer who has published more than 50 books. I haven’t seen or spoken to her since 1967, but when I found out what she had accomplished, it really made me stop and think about what it would be like to have never used one’s eyes to experience the world… and yet still have a rich experience of ‘the world’ and be gifted in communicating that experience. My own world is so overwhelmingly visual… what could I share with her? My photographs, my drawings and paintings, the colors I surround myself with, the ways that I understand and recognize and remember the world would be so different… in a way, I feel a certain guilt for the ‘hegemony of the visual’ in our world, and how little thought I had ever given to a world where the visual was not the dominant sense.
This site is about photography, of course, but maybe it is instructive to think for a moment about ‘anti-photography’, the negative of the visual… maybe this is a little too obscure, but what really are we doing when we take, or look at, or show other people photographs? They are flat images of light and shadow or hues of color on a flat surface… whether printed page, mounted print, or glimmering pixels on a screen. They are meant to evoke… imagination, memory, desire, mystery, recognizable people or phenomena, reassuring or disturbing or questioning or ambiguous messages… to resonate, in short, not only with our visual experience, but with our intellectual and emotional experience and the kinesthetic sensory imagination that goes far beyond the visual.
I think that should be the starting point for a history of photography, whether for the last 50 or 150 years. Clearly the technological advances in the medium… not just the taking of pictures, but also their distribution, the sheer increase in the volume of flat images that the average human is exposed to… have worked through many convoluted feedback mechanisms to help create a greater sensitivity to visual imagery, and have made it an ever more democratic means of communication.
Time for an intermission… to be continued!!!
Cheers,
Sidney
Yes, John, I know about his 18 year-old ‘friend’.
Erica: I already just took pictures of topless women(!) on the main beach here in Monterrosso al Mare
Sidney, vision is a gift shared by the vast majority of the population. One should never feel guilty for recieving a true gift of any kind. If this lady was meant to have this gift, she would have had it and how then would she have defined herself? Although seemingly difficult in conception, it is easier for a person lacking such gifts to define who they are to the world than a fully sensory
gifted person. As I said difficult in conception, many ill gifted people tend to rely on the charity or pity of others to define themselves. Everyone has a mission in life, perhaps hers is to form questions to arise in you, you in turn talk about them and in a blink she touches each of us who reads your post. She reached further through you by a bit of effort of her own early on. As for you having the gift of sight, can you accept a challenge to touch as many people in a positive way as she has? having and not having a particular sence can be a gift in its own right. Another person of example would be a sculpture professor I had. He has no sence of smell. He enjoys machining objects out of stainless steel, bone and othe materials. When you machine bone, it creates the strong stench of burning flesh. If he could smell it, he probably wouldn’t work with it as much and his art would be limited because he could sense it. It is my belief, each person is given a set of tools (senses, limbs, smarts, etc) and it is their free will to use them appropriately to accomplish any goal they set their mind to. In an instance where one of these gifts is taken away, the new challenge is to either continue working the way you had without being hindered, or to adapt and find another way of interacting within the social world in a positive way.
IMHO…
A Rumination (continued)….
Back to “(Wo)Man is the measure of all things.”
Believe it or not, when I was younger, I was known as something of a revolutionary, both in my personal lifestyle and in my political and social beliefs (not as a photographer or artist, however unfortunately). What happened? Did I run out of steam or lose faith and sell out… or did I grow up, wise up, and learn something? Some people, of course, never grow up… and there are people in many fields, artists included, who continue to be ‘revolutionary’ right up to the end… But one of the eternal themes of literature, folklore, and human experience is that young people are often quite radical and ‘driven’, and older people gradually become more conservative. You can ascribe this to becoming tired out or clinging to worn-out ideas… or maybe just becoming more dependent on physical comfort as the years roll by. Or, possibly, that some older people actually ‘mature’ in the sense that they understand more about life, themselves, and others, are more accepting of reality, and less eager to upset everybody’s applecart for the elusive promise of some romantic illusion or ideological goal. Actually, I think it’s often pretty hard to draw a distinct line between cynicism and wisdom.
This has been talked about here before, but when people are young they are often looking to create identities for themselves as ‘unique’, ‘distinct’, and different from the ‘mainstream’. I’ve seen a lot of stuff written about ‘having and expressing one’s unique point of view’, and not only here. Trust me, I ‘m not criticizing or condemning this! This is quite natural… it’s what younger people should do. In the latter part of life many former ‘unique individuals’ find they weren’t so unique after all, and that the ways humans are similar are possibly more interesting and relevant than the ways in which they are different. Or that something once thought of as ‘cliched’ or ‘corny’ starts to appear to have a more universal resonance than the self-consciously ‘original’ but not very accessible.
Now, I’m sure my understanding of ‘authorship’ as it has been used here is incomplete, but as I read it, it seems to have two main components: one is as a kind of ‘branding’ in which the photographer’s point of view, style, and subject matter (either in a concrete sense or a more vaguely ‘conceptual’ sense) are both internally consistent and distinct, and recognizable as part of that photographer’s ‘auteur’. And ‘new’ and ‘original’. When we see a photo by _____ (fill in the blank), we know it is his/hers. The art schools preach this… being innovative (if only for the sake of innovation), and ‘branding’ are the pathways to marketing and creating a niche career… I can’t say this is wrong… only that if someone really believes this, or if it is really the only way to ’emerge’ as a photographer, then it strikes me as a bit sad.
The other dimension to ‘authorship’ that I see talked about here is something a little more interesting (to me), and a little deeper… it has to do with an awareness that telling a story or presenting a concept in a purely visual way involves all kinds of considerations and interactions between the individual images working together… that in many cases no single image has the power to ‘tell the story’, but that everything depends on how the images are combined and work together, and there is tremendous scope here for individual interpretation and treatment. The photo essay, while a different medium, takes on certain qualities akin to the cinema or the novel… it becomes a ‘narrative’. I suspect we are paying attention to this partly because, as we are so bombarded with flat visual images in our everyday lives, very few individual images any more carry the power and impact that they might once have had… instead, it is only through skillful juxtaposition and combination, pacing and context, that a coherent and memorable ‘image’ can be conveyed. (I’m sure both DAH and other readers will jump all over me for this oversimplification and distortion… have at it, guys and gals, I have a ‘fairly’ thick skin, and I’m always ready to learn something new).
Now it strikes me that some types, styles, and subject matter of photography have been around for a long time and have not changed radically. Is this because they resonate with something very basic and central to the human aesthetic and emotional condition that does not radically change over time? When I read the exchange between Jim Powers and Rafal Pruszynski above about what photography from our time or before would have lasting significance, it set me off on this thought process. But I’m not trying to present a reply to either one necessarily.
The new stuff couldn’t exist, either technically or aesthetically, without the old stuff. Does that mean we should ‘stick to the old stuff’? Impossible, really… impatient and rebellious youth will make sure of that. Should we discard the old stuff? Very foolish, it seems to me… like Red Guards burning the books, art, and monuments of China’s cultural heritage during the Cultural Revolution. Ultimately, our collective visual awareness and expression will be enriched by a continuous intermingling and enfolding of the old and the new, and new technology will make new kinds of photography possible by ever-expanding masses for whom cameras are now far more accessible. But my suspicion is that a lot of the ‘categories’ ‘styles’ and ‘subject matter’ of more traditional photography will be with us for a long, long, time… partly because culture is innately conservative and tends to reproduce itself, but also largely because many of the ‘old masters’ of the past and their works speak very directly to things that are very central and very deep in the human psyche.
Thanks for your patience!
Jason,
I appreciate your thoughtful response.
Just to clarify… I don’t feel guilty or regretful about being able to see, or my strongly visual orientation… but rather, I feel somewhat regretful that in my self-absorbed and self-centered ignorance, I never really seriously thought about the minds, hearts, and worlds of people who are without sight, and I might have learned something of value if I’d been more aware and more imaginative.
Well to focus on just those without sight would be too limited. What about those without legs to stand on? How do they view photographs on a gallery wall positioned at a level easily viewed with some who can stand? And what about those without hearing. Flash slideshows with the ambient sounds that accent the photographs. Or one with an audio narration, how do people who can’t hear experience these? Photography isn’t at all just about the visual. It represents all of the senses. Smell – the smell of emulition, the chemicals in the dark room – the lightly sulphurous scent, the light sweet smell of smell of ilford delta 400 in a bulk roller… Sound, captured for a slideshow, the shutter click, the crunch of a jammed roll – the gears ripping the sprocket holes apart, the voice of the person being interviewed, the feeling of a flash popping in your hand – don’t need to see the light, the discharge makes a physical thump. I think the Act of photography is all unclusive. The display of the work, could be adapted. Perhaps a formula for making physical tactile 3d imagery from photos taken could be created. If you’re up for inventing new solutions, creating new problems and finding your own answer to address them. Then I wish you the best and I want to see the outcome. :)
ERICA….ALL
we will have a BURN gallery event in the NYC kibbutz loft in septemeber and in october to sell prints from photographers here…
i have also secured an amazing exhibition space in Washington in november for the very popular Photo Week…this will be a gallery/exhibition space exclusively for the photographers here on BURN…
the plan is to have Burn photographers exhibited at various venues all over the world in 2010….i am starting this in the U.S. just because i can do it easier…but, this is only the beginning…
i am also looking seriously into doing Burn published and distributed books…it all just makes sense…
anyway, stay tuned…all details soonest…
cheers, david
Sidney, you have thought about it. Just today. You’re not dead yet, you have an opportunity to make for lost ground if that is what you feel you need to do. Perhaps, you may want to consider doing those without vision a service by using your visual skills to service them. Create a visual peice that will tell the world about these people and why they should be remembered. And why they are so strong. And why they changed you.
DAH That is exciting!!!
…the plan is to have Burn photographers exhibited at various venues all over the world in 2010….i am starting this in the U.S. just because i can do it easier…but, this is only the beginning…
Sounds exciting,David. Time to work the branding.
Taking into account that you have plans to spread out around the world I’ll suggest: WILDFIRE
as in: WILDFIRE / NYC
WILDFIRE / Washington
WILDFIRE / U.K ……………
ERICA,
I agree, I also think that time can be better spent.
And lately I’ve started to question who does it all benefit in the end? is it really the photographers submitting? in many cases yes, but in some cases probably no.
So you’re very right. Submit to the ones that feel right.
Cheers
Advertisement or artist profile/ statement and some examples could be made into a matchbook format that folds out. Not like this, but this came to mind. http://tinyurl.com/kmgk4j
this is a piece from an Artist that my sculpure professor had handed around for the class to see…
Im thinking something closer to this http://i104.photobucket.com/albums/m165/scrapbooklayoutideas/Scrapbook%20Images/August%20Layouts/MatchBook3.jpg
except instead of going horizontal. Extend the cover flap into an accordion folded album that tucks into the matchbook… Anyone able to visualize this?
MARTIN BRINK…
of course one must submit and play to the venues which are most likely to benefit the photographer….and photographers always must decide how to spread their resources…there is limited time and energy for all of us…i think most of us have made mistakes and placed our energies down the wrong path…all part of experimenting and being willing to take chances…but, in the long term, one must choose the most probable venue for growth and/or good business…
cheers, david
SIDNEY…
great!!! i wish we had done this as a post….as Joe puts together our archive when “Burn the book” emerges , your essay above will surely be worth printing (with your permission of course)….many thanks….
cheers, david
It seems to me that with the editorial market slowing down, it seems to be a sensible to attempt to move/diversify into the gallery/exhibition/book market as well.
Here in NZ it’s not the readership/circulation that’s down, it’s the advertisng revenue drying up and that is usually about 80% of the magazines revenue. That’s the sad part about editorial work, you write/photograph to sell the advertising! :-)
I’ve made a concious move into the more art side of documentary photography as I think eventually think it will be better venue for the style of work I want to do. It remains to be seen whether it works out in practice though…
Cheers
ROSS…
this is what we are all wondering…i am gambling that the “authorship” of which i so often speak will allow photographers work to go from being simply an editorial fulfillment, to something where the photographers “voice” is indeed part of the content…naturally the strength of this voice will depend on the depth of the photographer and how they interpret their subject matter…in either journalistic or subjective terms….
cheers, david
DAVID
I need some help with an edit of the Remote Area Medical shoot from this weekend.
Do you have some time to look at them if I post them on photoshelter and send you an link?
David;
It’s an interesting journey, going the book/gallery route though. All this jumping through hoops for grants etc is new to me, especially when you are used to standing on your own two feet and not used to holding the cap out!!
I still think that the combination of editorial work to help fund the projects as a worthwhile option to use in combination with grants etc. I’ve also decided to attempt to seek out commercial sponsorship too, so am looking at that route at the moment.
I’ve begun to think that as well as having a major project running you need a couple of smaller ones ticking over on the side that can be done cheaply and while away on paying jobs etc.
For example there is a small settlement I’m keen on starting a project on that is only about 60kms away from my parents house. It’s cheap to get to and wouldn’t interfere with my youth project. But if I had it slowly ticking over in the background it would be a start when finished my current project. My main criteria would that it could not interfere with shooting the major project though
I’m not talking about shooting a hobby project, but trying to work things around paying jobs and shooting your major project simultaneously.
Any thoughts on this way of working?
PETE…
yes, of course…
ROSS…
the way you are talking about working is exactly what i have been doing all along…one big heartfelt project and some smaller ones to oil the wheels….the key is to have that heartfelt project..if you truly have that, then you do whatever it takes to make it come to fruition….read Sidney’s essay again..all you will really have to “lay down on the table” at the end will be your personal work…what moved you the most…what you really cared about….so, go to it!!
cheers, david
The commercial sponsorship route has been interesting. The two hurdles that are hard to overcome is that many won’t sponsor individuals, and most don’t want to be connected with anything alcohol related and youth culture = alcohol related!! :-)
Yet I still think the commercial route is worth pursuing, it’s just that I won’t compromise on content to suit other parties.
Ross that art side of the market is not as free and open as it may seem. Many fine art practitioners have taken to photography like a ducks to water, they are sophisticated in their conceptual thinking, have an innate sense of design/ composition with a definitive path of what they want to communicate. All this coupled with a understanding of world, audience and practice has given them a firm hold on that segment of the market.
Photography/video/ multimedia is the prime choice of art schools and the new artists they churn out, so there is no easy path there.
Remember as software becomes more accessible and easier to use more people will participate. I can pretty much as well do everything from photos, music, video etc from my laptop and a camera from start to finish either for the www. world or a exhibition in a gallery. This I can do from almost anywhere in the world and I don’t even have to turn up to the venue.
Personally the more people that are involved with photography/ multimedia the better, as it is just another thing we do in our lives no different to eating a slice of bread. Those that are hell bent on fame and fortune will miss out on the opportunity to be part of this great world as they will forever grumble,,,,,,”ah it’s not fair I am not making any money out of this”
David, you are gusty, my man. With galleries handling photography closing down and reducing exhibitions, you are going to start up galleries. If anyone can do it, you can.
Imants;
“Ross that art side of the market is not as free and open as it may seem” I never thought it was, I’m just exploring a new avenue to work in conjunction with my editorial work. It’s just a case of diversifying so you don’t have too many eggs in one basket.
“hell bent on fame and fortune” As for fame, fortune and money; Well, I’m broke most of the time anyway, so nothing ventured nothing gained! Anyway, I know there’ll be no pockets in my shroud! :-)
As long as I feel that I am pushing the limits of my ability, who cares about fame? Respect; yes, fame; no.
The only thing I don’t like about working into the art market is the entire “Emperors new clothes syndrome” that tends to be prevalent. Oh well, horses for courses I suppose.
What I have found here (in NZ) that the people at the Arts Board have been incredibly helpful explaining and helping with the entire grants process. Mind you, helpful and providing funds are two totally different beasts!:-) However they did say they get swamped with tons of dodgy proposals.
I’ll let you know the outcome in November…
Cheers mate
“Dwell in though upon the Grandest,
And the Grandest you shall see;
Fix your mind upon the Highest,
And the Highest you shall be.”
Vision, vision, what I see…
WELCOME BACK Grande MR.HARVEY !!! BURNIANS have missed you :)))
internet connection is the “curse” of our century…hmmmmm…
P.S Mr.Sidney, I vision your postings and I am so glad that you are around (ti be taken as a compliment)
from your “recovering dyslexic”
BEAUTIFUL DAYS IN BURNLAND… Forever LOVE…
See they are not dodgy proposals even though it may appear the way you will find that the people are quite sincere and just want to travel a different path to what “The Board” (which has it’s hands politically tied) has to fund. There is an expectation from the public which collectively are pretty conservative and will only accept what they know and deem as safe. That’s why most grants go to the tried and tested established artist, media etc. This has it’s advantages as governments and corporations see fit to continue their monetary support. Those on the fringe miss out so the create a fringe organisation which in turn (if successful) turns into part of the establishment.
The problem that most have who have to ply their photographic trade in the commercial/money for images world is that they are for ever compromising their own personal work. There is no way that they can produce work that slaps their bread and butter work in the face and not suffer repercussions, all be it financial, peer pressure, audience or the so called grey area of “selling out”. That’s why sometimes hard line choices have to be made on what you want to do, half baked efforts rarely produce something worth while.
Just for interest; this is one of the two side projects I want to work on. The influence of NZ’s best known poet; James K Baxter on the tiny settlement of Jerusalem (no not in the Middle East!!)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerusalem,_New_Zealand
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_K._Baxter
“It is the business of a poet, I think, to be destitute as well as honest. He may have money; but he should recognise that it is dirt. He may have prestige; but let him hate it and wear it like an old filthy coat. Then he may be able to stay awake a little better. Love will not harm him, though. It will slice him open like a fish, and hang him by the heels, and let the sun into his private bag of dreams and idiot ambitions. He will think he is dying when he is just beginning to wake up.” James K Baxter.
Cheers
Yea that’s one of those decision type of projects is it about James, his mind, his person or it it about what we want to perceive he was.
Imants;
I’m not sure how relevent some of that is here though, it’s often the fringe that gets most of the funding. It may be different in Oz, I wouldn’t know. Lisa and I had a good chat (via email) about the difference in the art scenes between our two countries and they seemed quite different.
What I meant by dodgy was proposals that don’t spell out the project, its aims etc, or what the money will be spent on. No one is going to give you money; either public or private funds if you can’t show what it is going to be used for. I didn’t mean dodgy in artistic style etc as pretty much anything goes here.
There is always a lot of whining here (in NZ) from artists who think they “deserve” funding by right though. They are “too good” to let their work stand on its merits. Or horror upon horrors; have to work a day job until they become established!!
As for choices; I don’t think there is much difference between shooting/writing articles as a job and shooting personal work in your spare time, or working at a unrelated day job and shooting projects in spare time. Are either of those options half-baked? Or just a means to an end.
Cheers mate
It may be a little obscure but it will be about the legacy he has left Jerusalem. Or whether there is a legacy at all.
Lisa may have spoken from a NSW perspective( which is pretty old school establishment based) taking Australia as a whole NZ is not that different . Fringe gets its money but it scrambles for it from year to year.
Tropfest, (short films) stared as being marginal now it’s huge both financial support and the public sees it as part of the landscape, open to all but no longer as accessible to the young budding film maker which was the intent
DAVID
I sent you the gallery invite on Photoshelter. It was sent to your Burn email.
I realized after I sent it that I had not uploaded the set of images that I was captioning. So they all have the same basic caption. If you need the captioned ones let me know and I will re-upload.
Thanks!
ROSS….
i cannot think of any artist of historic repute in any medium who has not done some so called “commercial work/trade work” for the simple purpose of survival …..Michelangelo and Picasso and Fellini and Segovia come quickly to mind….
there may indeed be such a hypothetical person, but i cannot imagine who it would be (with the exception of a few genuine gentrified/wealthy artists or photographers i.e. HCB)…there are some, perhaps even most, who would allow the need to earn a living conflict with the personal work, but those with a serious idea/motivation let nothing get in their way…
washing dishes to earn a living and doing “personal work” is hardly more creative than shooting an assignment and doing “personal work”….and a few certainly combine the two…this is no easy road of course…and rare…but, not impossible…this does in no way mean that personal work would by definition be half baked because it is split time-wise from something which helped pay the rent…but surely one must eliminate as much expense as possible and live as a “minimalist” as much as possible so the balance between creating work and making enough money to have a roof over your head is weighted heavily towards the former….time and energy are indeed priceless…spill no wine on the ground….
cheers, david
David;
Agree totally! It all comes down to finding a balance that suits your own particular situation.
Cheers
JIM…
not ALL galleries are closing down…however, as in every business right now, many are closing….the finer galleries will i suspect do just fine with a certain clientele….
in any case, my idea is not to open a gallery per se, but to use alternative exhibition spaces which are not galleries at all…warehouse spaces for example….event based…..bringing art to the people in a non-traditional non-gallery venue…remember both Mozart and Shakespeare among many others played to the “masses”…of course to be practical to some degree, one would invite likely print buyers to such an event…find today’s Medicis!!
i would be the first to say that i have no idea if this will work….but, i just cannot sit idly by and allow a morose mood affect what i think is right or possible…
we will see….
cheers, david
…i would be the first to say that i have no idea if this will work….but, i just cannot sit idly by and allow a morose mood affect what i think is right or possible…
DAH, 99% of the photographic world ( & not only ) can sit idly…. why not you?
;-)
( thanks for not doing this btw…:))))))))))))))
DAH is back…
so… special show tonight…
lets start with:
for a gallery we need a Big O Room…
David it would have been nice if the response to conflict of interest would have been directed at the person who posted the statement. Chasing a preconceived positive to you response again? No matter feel free to agree amongst yourselves……………
IMANTS…
weren’t we both simply having a conversation with ROSS??…simple as that… and both of us giving some personal thoughts based on HIS musings about how to best live HIS life as a photographer..i was not agreeing with , nor disagreeing with, anyone…frankly, i thought you were right on as far as i could tell not being at all familiar with the details of the grant system in NZ or OZ….
cheers, david
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pdf1Q5__uvg
Sweet Dreams (Are Made Of This)
this “program” is flexible…so am I..
lets drag ourselves “down”…once again…
its a request.. and im listening…:)
Its a party…
and I want in…
what happened to burn hotel?
I was there….
but didn’t have a key…..
:))
xox
**
David, Imants;
“weren’t we both simply having a conversation with ROSS??…” I thought so, and it’s been an interesting one at that! I’ve appreciated both of your inputs.
Maybe there has been a misunderstanding in my response to “half baked efforts rarely produce something” which was “Are either of those options half-baked? Or just a means to an end” It wasn’t intended to sound harsh or critical; more of a rhetorical question really…
Cheers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQBOhdb_5n4&feature=channel
obviously…:(
WENDY…
Burn Hotel was there for you…i remember telling you a space was available…i do not remember any follow through…did i miss a message from you??
cheers, david
YES
dearest David…
a message was
missed….
xo
ROSS…IMANTS
“half baked efforts rarely produce something” is quite true…nobody would suggest otherwise…..and i personally would never suggest making a “half baked effort” about anything….
now, my brain IS about half baked from euro jet lag…off to sleep…
cheers gents, david
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Zui7iBtWDM
slow motion…..:)
WENDY…
so sorry..email is a likely miss if that was the way you tried to communicate with me….TEXT the only way…i was without the internet for the last 9 days, so if your message fell into that time frame, then no wonder….email is seriously no way to find me these days anyway…i miss many …overwhelmed…again, my apologies…i should have given you Mike Courvoisier’s number right off…
cheers, david
I am on the road…where is the hotel?
what’s my space number?
please, don’t put me next to Herve…( he snores…I love you Herve)
I would prefer next to the window, near Imants…:)))and Lisa
BUT I thought I was the guy who will give out keys…
I am comfused…oups…I just spilled the wine…
WAKE UP BURNIANSSSSSSSSSSS
We need to push the support button…DONATION…we got to keep the Hotel…
Where is the music Panos?
Where is the food Pomara?
Where is the Friday wanderings Joe?
Where is the stories MikeR?
Where is the blood Lassal?
Where is the poems My Gracie?
Where is my Balkanian Boy?
Where is the girls Dellikson?
Where is my mill Reimar?
Where is MY sword tongue, street fighter.KATIE?
ANTON,merci…I can go on …and on…and on…Nope,I am loosing signal
can you capture the moment…photopeople???
sorry for the bad English
I wish I can have a nice excuse like
…My brain is half cooked…I only wish
What not to LOVE amigossssssssssss
WAKE UP BURNIANSSSSSSSSSSS
We need to push the support button…DONATION…we got to keep the Hotel…
sad ,sad, sad,Civi…
those biatches want everything for free…
and then some more…
“donation”????????
no, no,,no… this word does not belong in their dictionary…
they replaced it with the word “demand”…
DAVID
I’ll remember that….
there will be a next time…
segura….
xox
**
PANOS
maybe this is from Freida?!?!?!
maybe??
good night..
xox http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVg7mtgEqGY
Wendy…
straight .. from… from my guts…
i love u:))))))))
( Freida loves u even more…)
CIVI…
those funky biatches… they want the attention..
they want the love..
but they dont give nothing back…
except their “gay intellectuality”..
Always hurt..
Always in pain…
righteous… Elevated.. super artists… super humans..
misunderstood… dark… lonely…
tortured… picking up fights to “save” the world..
the “rest”of us…
Or simply” out of their prescribed medication”..
( ohh im so glad im stupid and “healthy”…fuckem)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFMC1N3L3n4
they are ready for war…
but im ready for “love”…:)
but.. i feel like a failure tonight..
coz im not supposed to speak…
only music…
but,,,? but i failed..
lemme get it together
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jFxPo8Dj24A&feature=related
Corinne Bailey Rae – Steady as she goes
Corinne Bailey Rae – Sexyback
lemme see what youre working with;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yEqaNiUY7I&feature=related
now thats some balls…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEiyGgWt6no
Since I’ve Been Loving You
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBrxNiItQuI
and speaking of australia or perth or this or that:
… and speaking of all that “godlike” superiority..
and intellectuality and righteousness … whatever happened to all those
“Flies on the walls” and cockroaches and Ants and “i’mAnts” and the headless insects???????
oh i know what happened:
Drugs Don’t Work
“washing dishes to earn a living and doing “personal work” is hardly more creative than shooting an assignment and doing “personal work””
Unless you working on films and live in Poland and then washing dishes you will able to buy something about ten films per year and for sure you will be hardly more creative when you will develop them next year.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqWLpTKBFcU
walking backwards?
when you will develop them next year….
Marcin, u got a digi right?
Marcin…
film is for elitists that live in N.Y..
:)
not for me or u…:(
get it?
film is not for the poor…
remember that…
not for us…
sorry
.. laughing..
Marcin,
when u get to find a rich husband, aka sugar daddy and move to NY..
then start shooting fim..velvia, ektachrome… u name it..
till then..???
dream on..
( once again, marcin im your biggest fan..:)))))))
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YCKANiM9tUM&feature=related
across….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4kgh1-NVxQ&feature=related
nothing is real
Panos;
while you’re busy matchmaking could you find a suger mamma for me so I can keep putting films through my Holga? :-)
laughing……
Ross… i hear u.. i feel u…man
I need it when I shoot it at 6×6 and forget to change it from 6×4.5! Oh and of course not forgetting the times that you fire away twice (double expose by mistake) forgetting that you aren’t using your digi…
As Homer would say “Doh” Interesting effects though! Not that I would ever make such stupid mistakes of course…. :-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z97o_rCDuPc&feature=related
hmmmm, Converses i think
Panos
It was “doing personal photography”
I am film photographer… point
B&W or slide whatever…
I’m stubborn as an ass….
What U are doing right now my friend?
Where are you?
some news? new projects?
… if u could only see what im doing right now…:)
if u could only see…( hint: hot woman involved …:)))
water squirting in my mouth… like a fountain………….
:))))))))))))
love life
ok.. gotta go… for real
:)
CIVI – i AM here.. just packing up.. moving to bergen.. got a flat on top of a mountain.. currently in a small fishing village in the north of norway.. wandering heart without megabytes is all :ø)
tor capa sends his love.. he’s a rather active boy.. internationally connected these days.. hardly has time for his pappa.
some ADMIN – i dropped my external hard-drive.. with too many years worth of (unbackedup)scans.. goddam.
anyone know someone good at information retrieval from broken hard drives or a business that does it for reasonable moula? please email – david(at)bophoto.co.uk
ROSS.. i have only read this page as time is tight, but if youth culture and related trappings are your thing there is definatly some money in it, even if not much.
what i have found is that arts grants and the like are a great deal of work for very little return, if your style is editorial.
if editorial IS your style then there are interesting ways of getting to photograph on someone elses budget.. tourist boards, magazines.. party promoters and the like all have money to fund good photography is you can find an editorial outlet..
by way of example..
my family and i spent 5 weeks in croatia just now.. funded by a commission i gained from a party promoter, which paid for the flat and flights over there.. so when we left it was break even.. then i picked up a commission from red bull and sold some stock photos of croatia and moved into megre profit.. i now have three other stories i worked on while there to sell and am planning a trip back in september, (which i do not have any moey for yet), to complete the work..
for this sept trip i am going to ask the tourist board of croatia, based on the press i have gained for the country over the past 5 years.. they funded one of these previous trip.
i have very little money – in fact i have not even had a bank account for the past year – and so putting work into more creative ways of funding has always been a top priority.
there is still, even if dwindling, market for youth culture photography if you can find a commercial application for some of the images.
alternatively try to get a weekly gig doing ‘hired eye’ work.. i used to snap a plate of food every week for a newspaper food review and that påaid my rent.
i really think it is so much better to find a commercial application for your work which is not too painful to do and takes up very little time than it is to depend upon grants and applications which are much more sought after by fine art photographers who, arguably, have less commercial possibilites.. i may be wrong there of course.
okay – have used the word ‘I’ too many times for my first post back in a while.
ross – have you thrown some of your work in the direction of youth and culture magazines? why not get a list of 10 to focus on and get in touch?
it has been a great couple of months since i was here.. loads of shooting.. loads of editing to do and loads of planning to do for the next trip.
DAVID AHHHH
back from the old country again, eh? great.
remember to breath a little.
yes yes.. dropped my hard-drive.. until i get the info back all editing and book activities have stopped.
my hope is to sort the hard drive in the next week.. in any case i will be submitting a choice of 2 ideas for single images within 10 days… and hopefully an essay within a couple of weeks.
thanks again for all your help with mentoring.. there is light at the end of the tunnel and i’m at the point, (with prints if not digital files) where i want to approach a couple of publishers.. will let you know how it all goes, of course.
muchas muchas pea’s
david
DAVID BOWEN..
i await your newest work….it was great to see you in London albeit we just did not have too enough time together…call me on Skype when you want to go over the book work…
cheers, david
DAVID BOWEN
HAIK (from BuRN) is a technical guru…
contact him..
he can help you
and
your
hard drive…..
GOOD LUCK!!!!!
I’ll send him a note and let him know you need help ASAP!!!!
might have to send it to LA…..
peace
and
happy travels….
xox
DAVID BOWEN…
the best hard drive hospital is in Los Angeles…expensive…but, they can get things back that others will tell you is impossible…i will get the name now and send you….
DAH and WENDY
great – many thanks.
david – will catch you on skype over the next week.. hot to trot and some good new work i think.
the redbull commission was totally by chance BTW and coincidental to them offering you work in argentina recently :ø)
they got in touch with me..
quote i had had for hard drive retrival runs to 500 GBP
:ø/
yes – london was a thrill..
meeting on the sunday before the flight was spot on and laura was lovely to meet..
thanks for the respected introductions – the mellowest of street meetings
hope you have had a listen to the cd i passed on.. it’s a corker and i’m on royalties for the cover.. a whole 7 pence per cd.. jeepers.. the john cage violin track is great with a corn pipe..
cheers
d
DAVID
Just want to make sure you got that invite from photoshelter. Thanks!
David B;
Thanks a bunch for that, I really appreciate it.
Cheers
David Bowen,
Sent you an email. I’ll look at it and if it needs real surgery with opening the plates, the price is moderate in here and i can do the delivery and pick up for you – and DAH knows people :).
Cheers.
David B..:)
no despair…
Haik is the man..
Ask Katia Roberts..
( where is Katia R. btw???)
The Black Keys – 10 A.M. Automatic music video
Black Keys… unorthodox orthodoxy!
Loved it!
NEW LINK
NEW LINK
NEW LINK ( new slideshow below )
http://picasaweb.google.com/innerspacecowpanos/Tif07?authkey=Gv1sRgCNuWjoud04LOFA#slideshow/5363698347401909266
Enjoy
Enjoy
Enjoy
some nice pic’s panos.. strong colours!
I just wanted to direct you guys over to the la familia abrazada tumblr. LFA is a group I co-administer on flickr and it is all about family photography. Have a look. http://lafamiliaabrazada.tumblr.com/
Peter thank you…
im working on a second link as we speak..
Again thank you…
SECOND Venice link
SECOND Venice link
SECOND Venice link………
RE-RE-RE-REVISITING JIM MORRISON’S MAGIC RV…
thank u for visiting with me..
slideshow link below
http://picasaweb.google.com/innerspacecowpanos/Tif08?authkey=Gv1sRgCKiR8oWvtcCOowE#slideshow/5363728096800895538
panos
you make my day :)
Thanks Marcin…
I needed to hear that..
Just like the good ol’ Roadtrips days..:)
thanks for your support…
:))
Panos. first set of pictures are really nice. Strong shapes and colours. Feels like I am there.
John.
Would look even better shot on film :))
David Alan Harvey,
could you have a look through the tumblr and tell me what you think? I started the group, and the tumblr, for 2 reasons. 1 is that as you know that kind of photography is my cup of tea, but 2 because I wanted to have real hands on experience editing different work. Your feedback would be really appreciated.
RAFAL…PANOS…
i will look at both of your links today and give my opinion on both…..you want it here or by private e-mail??
cheers, david
any way is fine David
Panos, It’s good to be back in Venice again! I’ve missed seeing life through your wonderfully quirky eyes. My love to you and Freida…
Patricia
Link to the little multimedia PIANO piece I made a couple of weeks back.
Its pretty low res and they seem to have screwed up the aspect ratio, but it still looks kinda cute.
And it paid the rent for another month :)))
All done on a canon 5dII in a couple of hours.
John
oops. Forgot the link.
http://www.westway.org/about_us/whatsnew/news?page=1245093718
Looks like the link got lost in the ether.
http://www.westway.org/about_us/whatsnew/news?page=1245093718
try again
John
Panos…
I have to come to Venice!
Great series. Cheers.
John, Patricia, Michael..
Thank you ..
John.. Can’t find the Piano multimedia link..?
Mike:).. U better come to Venice soon..;)
Panos. I think it got flagged as spam.
“www.westway.org/about_us/whatsnew/news?page=1245093718”
If you cut and paste this manually it should get you there.
John
As far as cool/strange music links go…
Here is Movits!
A Swedish swing, hip hop, jazz band…
“….RAFAL…PANOS…
i will look at both of your links today and give my opinion on both…..you want it here or by private e-mail??
cheers, david…”
… for here or to go?… or maybe room service ???
how can u not love DAH?
David, “here” of course… everything in the public eye…
Burn is the place to learn, to achieve, to be, to get roasted..
laughing…:)
i appear to be spam at the moment
……except now im not.
Panos. i think me posting the link earlier caused burns spam filter to have kittens.
So you will have to manually cut and paste this.
“”www.westway.org/about_us/whatsnew/news?page=1245093718″”
Nothing special but kinda cute.
john
… john im the official spammer here …cant steal my crown…:)))))))
ok?
Panos, Love that you’re giving the Black Keys some love here. Great band.
I need to spend some time looking at your images. At first glance, they look very welcoming.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnUUrWBwVqQ
Brian…absolutely…love’em
Black Keys – Have Love Will Travel
The Black Keys – So He Won’t Break
The Black Keys -No Fun
or…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmI9iCiH-SE
Iggyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
PANOS
With all due respect, is an online magazine devoted to great photography really the place to make post after post about music that you like?
May I suggest starting your own blog? I for one would probably visit it as I am sure others here would.
I just think that the dialogue here should be on subject.
Just my 2 cents.
Pete..:)
also with all my respect…
i think is a mag devoted to life.. photography or music are wavelengths..
same as light… same as sound…its all WAVES..
i cant separate them…
now if the “owner” of this mag which is DAH asks me to stop playing music,
then i’ll be happy to stop…
so far i havent got any order or command or complains of that manner from “above”( neither DAH or ANTON are bothered by music)…
In fact the feedback im getting suggesting the opposite…
so…..till then either “tolerate” me or feel free to ignore me…
( i will be very happy and excited if u do the latter… though )
thanks, big hug and remember: feel free to set your rules at your own blog …
Sigh
Don’t mind Panos as he is a bit insecure in his own world so he loves to spoil it for others ……….watch his nasty streak come out. As per usual he will either increase his rant to piss you off or sulk in the corner
here Pete…
the definition of Burn click below…
Burn is sexy, Burn is Dancing..( no dancing with no music , right ?)
Burn is beyond photography…
the world is not flat or one dimensional..
sorry, sorry…
again examine this video clip below carefully…
https://www.burnmagazine.org/dialogue/2009/06/fire/
Im glad (I’m Ants) chooses the middle path…
laughing
Marilyn Manson – The Nobodies
…and ImAnts…:)))
i know you like me.. you like me more than i would like to be liked..but..
but i know i know…
love bounces back at you..
;-)
Seriously Panos — get serious, now.
Nevermind this is the place set aside from burn for us to go off topic, have debate, etc. God forbid we have fun. Serious artists in the room, dontcha know.
funny Jared how some peops ( i call them hyenas )..
never contribute… just lurking in the dark corner and attack
the DJ…
like there was any photo conversation going on anyways..
like they dont know what “buzz” is for…
they got all serious and pretentious like constipated perverted priests
that lurking on innocent little boys…
Dont laugh in the house of jesus…
simply fuck’em
hypocrites
laughing
Panos maybe the chemistry set you play with is losing it’s bite……… the guys in the ward love you especially Mick since Raelene reverted back to his normal self.
“… the guys in the ward love you especially Mick since Raelene reverted back to his normal self….”
you keep repeating the word WARD my friends… and although im trying to hide it…
i really worry about you…
( and im sorry that your buddies Mick or Ralene are still locked in while you got out… i feel your guilt my troubled one )
:)
Led Zeppelin houses of the holy 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMKhX03BICE&feature=related
ok, back to music
and lets Imants to talk about what he knows best: “photography”
sigh through laughter ( if possible )
If you ask nicely Mick will take you out on a pig shoot in his back paddock Bullamakenka way. They like them one sheep short of a station out there……….
thats hot… can i bring an ipod with me?
you know i like music…
:))))))))))))
..btw imants i thought you “left” at least twice..
what great wind brought you back?
( i told u , i know u like me..:)
honored
Re: The world is sorta empty
Last I saw of Mick was after the pig shoot out Wallgett way, the old Bull’ (Bullamakenka) ain’t seen him since he ran those white lines……………….he was up the north coast lookin a bit shakey, some say he is gathering flowers …………. Raeles wants to be a bloke again……
__________________
.
Imants Krumins images
.
doi knia slide shows
http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/343531-post43.html
( imants go back to your leica forum.. people love you there …u keep repeating yourself )
love you man
please stay
Mick e4ven got a new cassette player in his one tonner, he loves the Pandoras, especially the boxed set.
Catch laiter I’m off to work am here
“Jono anything contrary to your thinking is a rant……………. but don’t expect Leica to come running to fix the compression, It’s obvious that the jpeg quality was not a priority, leica had other quirks to work out and still do as everyone except for the extreme one eyes know”
http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/leica-m8-forum/28251-jpg-resolution-loss-2.html
classic imants attack towards everyone… poor Jono…:)))))
its just imants against the world:))))))))))))
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cjv7hEAytU
__________________
http://www.urbansand.com/
interview with me
Right on Rafal…
loved the “elephant” cover photo…
thanks Panos
I find that there is a tremendous synergy between music and photography, and I often get more inspired to take photos after listening to music than looking at pics etc.
Cheers
Amen Ross…
plus i never thought of posting music under someones essay or when a “serious” conversation ( whatever that means ) is taking place…
but..its the same usual attacks and im so used to it… part of the blog life…
music is a blessing…
think of the blues … kept the enslaved soul and spirit alive…
music heals… empowers… inspires..
( man, i cant believe i have to explain and defend music’s benefits to ones soul…)
sad
… and its funny that im getting attacked by Imants that if you notice his essay he relies on slideshows on a multimedia form and dark MUSIC to impress…no photos… but yes MUSIC…
how hypocritical…
ok… proven that … i need to move on…
( as they say: they dont kick a dead dog )
sorry about that…
ahh the darkroom is open and the munchkins are printing their little hearts away……
” plus i never thought of posting music under someones essay”that’s a lie Panos but that’s blog life. sweet!
Hmmm my iPhone can play music and take pictures at once… Coincidence? Or intended design by the great Apple?
ok Imants…
you win…
whatever u say is right…
Jason…:)))
yours too??????
what a coincidence… my phone does the same…
You placed the music links on mine Panos …………I hope to reciprocate with a bit of “Elizabeth Bridge” by the Puppy on yours if you allow multiple posts …….grin.
Imants..
i didnt play music under your essay like i do in “buzz”..
i wasnt DJing…
i was trying to reveal the “audience” where your inspiration came from…
You and me are brothers… we understand “shock value”…
Was i was trying to tell you through music is that you
remind me of pretentious Marilyn Manson’s act …
thats why i “played” TOOL right after that, so u see the point ..
but obviously the “point” didnt go through…
in other words i wasnt just playing irrelavent music under your essay..
i was trying to communicate and explain things through music…
see what i mean…
and again im not saying i have to be right… its just an opinion..
i do find you pretentious… i do see behind your pompous theatrical costume…
no substance… artsy farty stuff…
but still this is my opinion…
and opinions change through time… looking forward to see more of your work..
keep it up and dont listen to what i say…
dont be oversensitive… i just didnt like your work..
my opinion…big deal..
we need to smoke a joint together… and maybe i should revisit your work…
big hug
…and Imants sorry if i hurt you…
im not happy about that… your work is not that “easy” and you know this..
that doesnt mean your work is worthless.. not at all…
i didnt like it.. but thats just me … thats all…
i could have used the Friday the 13th movie versus Hitchcock’s movies instead of
Manson vs Tool… see what i mean?
again sorry if you are hurt..
… and yes… go at the archives, find Venice…
its open .. please post your songs as long as you feel expressing yourself…
go ahead …
lets lighten up and move on now…
:))))))))))))))
Ross
“I find that there is a tremendous synergy between music and photography”
Absolutely. As a musician I relate totally. Music and photography even share a lot of common language. We talk about tone, colour, rythm, pattern, texture, symmetry, etc etc. Ansel Adams, who was a classically trained musician before he was a famous photographer understood the connection. He is quoted as saying “the negative is the score, the print is the performance”.
I’ve just come home from a week in Lunenburg Nova Scotia at the Boxwood festival of the wooden flute. Amazing magical time. I’ll post some photos later.
Gordon L.
“i do find you pretentious… i do see behind your pompous theatrical costume…
no substance… artsy farty stuff…”
…….. thanks Panos, now if I could only find something positive to say about you ……. grin
……. gotta go
Gordon;
I think that’s one major reason why I enjoy shooting my youth project so much. It was inspired by music; Pete Townshend and Quadrophenia, and so much of what I am shooting involves music, mostly the Indie rock and punk scene.
A loose edit of the project (early stages); http://www.lightstalkers.org/galleries/contact_sheet/18440
I also find the inspiration of music (esp singer songwriters) valuable when writing too.
Cheers;
Ross
And a few from last years WOMAD
http://www.lightstalkers.org/galleries/contact_sheet/16952
Cheers
DAVID
I uploaded the Remote Area Medical images again, this time with all comments and I resent you an invitation from Photoshelter to your BURN account. I was not sure if the old invite would work after I replaced images.
Please review as soon as you can.
PANOS
I was not suggesting that music had no benefits…. I guess my point was that seeing 6 or 7 Panos posts in a row with music links can be a bit tedious to people looking for interesting discussions here.
Maybe put them all in one post?
Imants..
as i said.. opinions change through time…
im not THE truth holder… or the absolute judge…
its the nature of a blog …written form…
Things sound harsh and absolute sometimes…
people also find ME pompous ,annoying and pretentious at times..
I had “blog fights” with Michael K. or Rafal or even Patricia and others…in the past..
I said wrong things and expressed some stupid opinions…Ask David B… or even
the “Fly on the Door”troll…
i remember i said that your work didnt happen in one day…you ARE a hard worker…
DAH or John Vink loved and praised your work…
You should be happy…
( if i were u i’d rather listen to John Vink than me…)
And John V., loved your work… you should feel happy and excited about that..
remember : opinions are like assholes… and i do also have one…:)))))))
I really wish i could meet u in person…
and definitely i will re-visit your work…
again.. no sarcasm and big hug
Maybe put them all in one post?
Pete , thats not a bad idea…
Thing is that the spam filter usually blocks a post with 2 links or more…
plus honestly i never know what my mood will be or what the songs should be..
it comes gradually through time and wine..:)))
no bad feelings though… i know there are folks out there that dont enjoy my stuff…
same as my photos… its just i need to express myself any possible way or …im dead…
( although its relatively easy to “detect” a YouTube link and then ignore it… im sure many do that and i
expect it… thats the beauty of the blog… we dont have to open links or even read anyone’s comments )..
Anyway sorry if you got upset with my shit..i just dont know how to make it any “better”
All respect..:)
PANOS
Not upset. And I forgot about the spam filter. And it is not your music choices either.
No worries.
Tired of editing… time for sleep.
Christ… when life gets to the point where scrolling — scrolling! — past comments is too “tedious”… well shit man… something is seriously wrong… and it is not the DJ!
Thanks for introducing me to the Black Keys brother Panos!
Two Guinness and one Laphroaig. Feelin’ damn good.
OK… now I’m slummin’ it. Jack and Ginger!
I met David Alan Harvey (“Dave Harvey, nice to meet you!”, is how he introduced himself to me at 5:00 AM one chilly morning.) at a workshop in Jackson WY three years ago. I came to photography late in life–relatively–and he and Sam Abell were quite the influence. I showed him (Dave) my portfolio… he was straight forward, no bullshit. Some criticisms, some helpful hints… but all in all, I think he liked my shit. That was a pretty groovy feeling.
Back then he had no real web presence. None that I could find. I looked and looked. A little here and there at Nat Geo and Magnum, but nothing of his own. Then about a year later… there it was! Road Trips and all the other crazy stuff! Tried to get into his loft workshop… rejected! Or not enough room, whatever. Not too crushed. (well, maybe a little bit!) But hey! He keeps helping me anyway. Just ask! I do… and I do again. And so do others… many others! And he helps. He responds, cares. What the fuck is it with this guy? Stretching and stretching himself.. burning the candle. Burning? Burn? … BURN!
I come and I go. Spend way too much time here… then too little time… no time at all. But must return. Aller-retour.
Argue, piss people off. Maybe even Dave. (David?) Cause people to leave (or so they say!) Make friends, lose some. (sorry all!) (No offense.) Learn much, Much, MUCH! Thank you.
Thank you, thank you, thank you… ALL! But especially…
Muchas gracias, merci beaucoup, thank you very much DAH! Much love to you for this site, for your insight. Your generosity, genuineness, general human-ness! I still have a bottle of scotch with your name on it. Maybe I’ll finally deliver it to you in OBX… soon! Maybe Panos will join us? Maybe Bob Black?
Peace everyone.
PANOS – Opinions are like assholes , everyone has one ………and everyone thinks that theirs doesn’t stink.
Don’t change!
Hey Glenn.
How’s things in Darwin? been back to Timor at all lately?
Cheers;
Ross
Where did all the WOMEN go??? Yes, we see comments by women over on the photo essays and selected photos, but at present, almost all the buzzing over here on Buzz is coming from the fellows. If it weren’t for Erica’s insightful contributions and the occasional post by one woman or another, Buzz would pretty much be a man’s world. I wonder if the women got sick of the bickering over here and just buzzed off to more peaceful places. Or maybe they read but don’t comment. Whatever the reason, we sure could use more woman-energy over here to balance the yin-yang of our discussions. Come back, dear sisters. We need you.
Patricia
ROSS ,
No , I’ve not been back to since His Excellency got shot last year , Darwin is busy I’m almost finished preparing my first exhibition in time for the Darwin Festival
http://www.glenncampbellspictures.com/#/Portfolio/42-45%20Exhibition/1
I’ve been thinking about alternate funding for my work as well and have lined up a few scores , but I really think that if you are going for corporate funding is you have to think like a corporate type ,
“What are they going to get out of associating their brand with you and your work?”
“How does your work relate to their product/service?”
” Who the hell are you anyway ?”
…all questions that some suit will ask when you ask them for a bag of cash because you are not a charity that they can claim , not a worthy cause as far as they can see so you should really think about approaching organisations that could have a use for the end imagery ie licencing for advertising , Have an end use Book or exhibition that they can tie their name to ( this also gives you a deadline to work to ,just because it’s personal work doesn’t mean you have to be slack) ,offering them something tangible in return would go a long way towards completing your goals.
That’s what I’ve found anyway.
Where did all the WOMEN go???
Kathleen, Katia R.. Gracie…!!!???
Glenn……….
striking black & white…..
teach me please..
im tired of color..:(
Glenn;
“What are they going to get out of associating their brand with you and your work?, How does your work relate to their product/service?, Who the hell are you anyway ?”
Those are the issues I’m trying to cement in place right now. The last thing I want to do is go to them with a proposal that they receive no benefit from. That’s why I’m taking my time a little with the proposals, I want to get them right.
I also want to get a reasonable body of work underway so they can see the style/content of work etc. The only problem with the advertising angle (for my project) is the whole model release issue…
Oh well, it all keeps you on your toes anyway! Congratulations on your exhibition too.
Cheers
Abbey Road!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1WLqBmCGm7E
PANOS – Ilford FP 4 + red filter + highlights + 12 Mins in D-76 or just use PS
Ahhhhhhhh Glenn…
i feel so guilty now about all that shit i usually “give” erica about her film obsessions…
im just jealous coz i cant afford it anymore..
sorry erica… sometimes i act like a KID…
KID???? i just said?
“Kids” Video
denying film? i must be living in denial… big time
The Denial Twist
Maybe I’ll finally deliver it to you in OBX… soon! Maybe Panos will join us? Maybe Bob Black?
Mike i will… absolutely..:)
Don’t deny yourself Panos , the tactile ,sublime fumbling of loading a Leica while walking, the satisfaction mixed with horrible anticipation walking away and of not being 100 percent sure you have “IT ” in the bag , Films still cheaper than a Leaf Back which is what I’d need Cos My prints are a meter long.
I read Your Bio, Bike Messenger? one question …Fixed or Free?
Is the tactile, sublime fumbling of loading my Holga while walking the poor man’s equivalent? :-)
I have a poor mans leica – I swapped it for series 3 landrover 2 door Ute.
Aah you can’t beat an old Landy…. A mate and I used to hit the back country in an old Series one, great times!
Very Odd. Everytime I try to post a link to the piano thing it gets flagged up as spam.
Anton, you got some fancy code hidden away in here??.
So I guess you dont get to see it panos. Unless you google westway development trust, and find your own way there. Assuming of course that this entry dont go down the spam hole too.
Shot the ronnie biggs single being recorded the other night.(all on film panos, im such a snob :)) )
Worked out well. As I was the only photographer invited everybody wants a piece of the pictures. just got the color stuff back and it looks great. Picking up the black and white this morning. Had everyone from rock and roll legends, celebrity jewlery designers, to the guy who writes THE WIRE, all hanging out in a tiny recording studio above a mexican takeway on portobello road. It was a real blast.
John
John;
That sounds like a great gig. History in the making! It got a mention on the TV news here in NZ. My comments get spammed when I’m at home (my IP seems to be the problem), but go through ok if I’m working from the folks place (different IP)
Panos the authorities latched on to burn, read your stuff……… now after a electrode hit I am back to “The chair:……..http://etrouko.com.au/art/chair09.jpg ………it can get lonely
http://etrouko.com.au/art/chair09.jpg
MICHAEL K…
i had forgotten that is where we met…i remember the meeting, just not the place…anyway, i good use a good shot of Scotch about now..where in hell are you??
PATRICIA…
i wrote two Dialogue stories about women photographers, gave 2k to Jen Ackerman, and then the women disappeared and then everyone, mostly men, came back to buzz anyway…very little conversation took place under the women stories……hmmm, did i say something wrong?? the women in my life generally tell me that i do say “something wrong”, but i sure do not know what i did THIS time…but, then again, i never do…ok, i’m calling my mom….she gets me (mostly)…or rather, i should say, she claims she does!!!
peace, david
GLENN…
yea, walking or even running and loading a Leica..sweet memories ….hmmmm, always thought i would lose that base plate which i often dangerously held in my mouth….
love the work we have of yours…i will have to check and see where it stands..are we waiting for you?? anyway, i want to get this up soonest…
cheers, david
PETE…
as soon as i can , is not right now amigo…i have Panos and Rafal ahead of you…ahead, as in they asked first…doin my best
RAFAL…
i like your group…as a matter of fact i will drop in to check your curatorial skills from time to time…i particularly liked Furuk (sp?) Khan…possible Burn essay???
your park series is ready to go i think …or close anyway..should be up in the next two weeks…of course i will write and let you know when exactly…
cheers, david
DAVID
Thanks! I am under a bit of a deadline, but when you can is fine of course.
I posted a link on The37thFrame to that wonderful essay by Julia Komissaroff.
PANOS..
knock, knock…room service…
well, i would never deliver room service to you actually…i would be way way afraid of what i would see on the other side…no joke..
anyway, fast Venice style critique…
while you remain one of the worst editors of your own work of any photographer i know (laughing hysterically), if one pans out the nuggets there is some shining gold…in the first set, 3,11, and 16 work and in the second set, 2,3,14,17 and 28 have a nice feel….we never got down to choosing from your previous set which you shot in 7 minutes at a taco stand i think..i would like to go back and take a look at that again too…
well, forget editing…for you , editing just does not matter…it would go against the grain of the way you live and work and talk and write and shoot…i would not mess with it….that Winogrand film where he is working in Venice Beach is interesting…while you have that same loose freestyle way of shooting, you are quite different from Garry…he did not talk to anybody…you talk to everybody…..obviously it gets you into trouble probably every day one way or another on the Venice boardwalk and right here on Burn, but what the hell…you are a straight up shooter for better or worse in life and in your work…and that is all that matters…besides, you have stayed with this …tenacity mixed in with your crazy lifestyle…not a bad combo…
now, my only complaint is that you have obviously not changed sidewalk tables since i left months ago…everything looks exactly the same, except the women seem to be different than when i had the pleasure to be hosted by you on your favorite “corner”…seems like you could actually do a whole piece just on life in Tony’s van/camper….i mean, just in the three days i was there that van was a set piece of California decadence and discovery….is he still playing Jim Morrison by night and teaching at the university by day??? anyway, save me a spot…from time to time i too take a walk on the wild side…
in all seriousness, you think you have your book in hand, but the real book is to come…i have to finish Blues, Booze and Barbeque with Mike Young (to be published by Powerhouse this fall) and Falling into Place (fingers crossed with Aperture) with Patricia…i will try to do two or three books this year including Lance and Thirst for Grit…if you really get serious ( but, not SERIOUS), then i think we could start showing your book around in the spring…make sense??
i know this will rub some wrong, but i think you should stay just as you are…besides, it is too damned late to make many changes anyway….all of us are who we are…”change” is usually a figment of someone else’ imagination….
just order another Corona…and just take another picture…
cheers, david
p.s…oh yea, i almost forgot…you are Greek..so, remember HUBRIS…stay humble…well, try anyway!!!
DAVID
The women disappearing off Buzz has had NOTHING to do with you. Your thread on women with cameras was sensitive and timely. If I remember correctly at that time there were some pretty active conversations going on in other online forums about gender equality or lack thereof in the photographic world. Seems to me our own Lisa was speaking her mind very clearly in those forums and saying things some of the guys didn’t like to hear. Opening up the discussion here on Burn was a good thing. I think it went as far as it needed to go…for now anyway.
My suspicion is that a number of our regular posters got turned off by the nasty tone that showed up here on Buzz within the past few months. I think we lost both women and men—as public commenters not necessarily as readers–when the name-calling, personal attacks and general ill will went into high gear. That usually coincided with your being unable to participate because of the demands of a workshop. I know from having participated in one of your workshops how you give it EVERYTHING and barely have time to eat or sleep so I’m not saying you should babysit Burn too. I’m just saying things go better when you’re here.
To be honest, David, you are always a moderating influence on Burn. You manage to make people feel seen and heard no matter what their gender or experience or lack of experience in photography. I find you to be a man who treats others with respect. I can count on 2-3 fingers the times you’ve “lost it” here but you always come right back and apologize publicly. Then you contact the aggrieved party privately to try to work things out.
Maybe what we need now is to put Buzz to rest. I know your schedule is tight but this feels like a good time to start a new thread. It’s always cool to see where you take us…
hugs
Patricia
PANOS ICON…..JANITOR OF BURNACY! :-)))
AH!
am behind on burn, step away and…
DAH……
1) So Mike C is running the burn space in Brooklyn and there will be an event this fall? Will there be some kind of formal ‘call’ for work and procedure outlined here for submissions?
2) Other exhibition venues..fantastic..will the (unsold) work travel from brooklyn or will it be a different edit?
3) Book endeavors…do you have thoughts on ‘burn books’ becoming an entity? or is your help all going to be informal and organic? Can we talk about how you are helping? Obviously have my book project in mind in the asking..are you helping to approach publishers?
Sorry to be all BIZ but am trying to stay on track, so much to be done, and i haven’t found a hammock yet this summer, just the concrete jungle which is great, but I am (becoming) obsessed with all this and i think it would be healthy to think of finishing and PLACEMENT.
saying things some of the guys didn’t like to hear
—————————————–
I remember that thread. She, Lisa, didn’t like to hear things I had not even said or written….. :-)))
The “BURN” women are very active, judging by my FACEBOOK daily “wall” news. Gina, Linda, Kelly, Audrey, also Yumi Goto, not a burnian, but a totally dedicated person to spreading the good P. news.
Gee, david, watch your women, man!!!! Maybe we should have Patricia as overseeing matron, so the women don’t leave the harem so easily when you take a trip!!!! :-))))))))
And Panos as Executioneer…. The cutter…. Beware! Heads will fall:
I can’t resist making the following comment Herve, as i reject your classification..If there is a harem, that makes you men eunuchs..both castrated and servants of the women, and i think you’d like that as little as I like the notion of belonging to the above.. I know you are just teasing, but still, I’m not amused.
I’m here popping in on occasion, but things have been hectic and quite the rollercoaster.
The day job has been horrible, to the point I’m not sure I’m going to make it through my contract that ends next week without walking out. Yes, that bad.
Then last night I was part of my first gallery show of music photographers who also happened to be all women. The elder exhibitor was Leni Sinclair who shot music legends like MC5, Miles Davis, Bob Marley etc and is 69 years old. I was so disappointed she didn’t come and I didn’t get to meet her, but honored to share a space with her (“I’m not worthy! I’m not worthy!”) And I was overwhelmed with the reception my work got and how many people came up and talked to me and were so friendly. I can say I am finally starting to feel like part of a community again for the first time since leaving Phoenix last summer.
At one point one of my comrades who works for Getty Images shooting bands came out to the patio and started saying “Where is Diana Price?” I couldn’t see who he was in the dark and was a little scared! Then when I saw it was Scott, he proceeded to drag me back into the venue, literally by the hand, set me in front of my space and said, “Your work is OUTSTANDING!” And trust me, he does not pull punches. As he demonstrated shortly thereafter with a critique of a few other pieces.
The show curator wants to me to do a solo show in April. So I’m on a roll, right?
So then I get up today, invigorated, and start making credential queries again for big shows. Brick wall. My publication I query for is weak, going from a print magazine, to PDF and now going only online for myspace. This tends to not get one very far with the big acts. I’ve tried more legit publications in the past and don’t even get a response, even when my work is better than what they are publishing. I feel locked out no matter how good of work I produce.
Scott from Getty Images told me I should start my own music blog and I will, but it will likely end up the same way…to get the big names, i have to have big names already. It’s a Catch-22. A glass ceiling I can’t penetrate.
I can’t decide whether to cry, laugh, bang my head on the wall or all of the above.
Just needed to vent a bit…
Diana..have you tried contacted the bands / pr person directly, and not the venue?
Yes.
Patricia: you’ve got it in one. well, for me at least
I think there are 2 established music photographers here on burn, if someone can remind us of who they are, you could try seeing if they have any useful connections.
When you get into the bigger names, they start to get picky about the publication. The publicity company for Lamb of God was straight up that they would not be able to get me in that show for anything other but mainstream publications, but did squeeze me in on one of their smaller acts they represent.
But mags like AP, Revolver etc have not even given me the time of day in the past. I’m thinking of making a promotional book on blurb or a similar site and putting together a package to send to them so hopefully they will hang on to the book and keep my work around. I do have a few names in my port now, unlike the last time I tried to contact them vial email/online portfolios.
I’m still waiting to hear back on Marilyn Manson, which I was informed last night that “everyone is getting approved.” Even photographers applying just under their photography business and not a publication.
right..I have some thoughts on approach but it doesn’t feel like you want to have a whole discussion on this, more that you were clearing your head.
Hey, when DAH helps you with a book, where are they sold?
PATRICIA…
yes, a new post is forthcoming…and i do know that when i MUST leave for a week or so, sometimes things go awry…i wanted to post yesterday, but there was a perceived tech problem…i spoke with Anton this morning and all seems ok..in any case, i suppose you are right on….and i do know from private e-mails that one of our regular women writers is dealing with family issues…thanks for always being the perfect bellwether….
ERICA…
i wrote a note to you the other day, but i think you missed it…yes, we are having two events in NYC this fall to sell Burn photographer prints…
i have also secured a really cool space for a Burn exhibition in Washington during the ever popular Photo Week in early november…my plan is to have many international exhibitions all through 2010…setting up for exhibitions is easier for me in the U.S. just to see how it goes, but these in the fall are just the beginning…
now, the hard part…how to choose what is exhibited and what is not….the exhibits will be intended for print sales… as per a normal gallery with the photographer receiving 50% of the sales price of the print…if i can find very large venues, there could be a time when themed shows could be exhibited where prints sales perhaps might not be the goal…however, in these hard times, i think one of my jobs here is to help get some funding in the hands of as many photographers as possible…nobody is going to make a lot of money at these shows, but some people might do pretty well..we just have to decide what is mostly likely to sell and what is not…as you well know, there are many fine photographs which would not do well on someone’s wall at home…so the playing field becomes fairly narrow when you are going for what will actually sell…
i think i will start by just going through all the photographs that have been published on Burn, all that have been submitted, and others that i just know about…i will make an educated guess on sales potential and perhaps in conjunction with our collector’s print rep at Magnum…the fact is, nobody for sure knows whether a picture will sell …but you can , i think, get pretty close…we certainly know what most likely will not sell, i.e. news/conflict/social issues photographs with very few exceptions…
in the next few weeks i will come up with a plan so that photographers wanting to make sure i know of their work can let me take a peek…also, i am open to any good ideas on the best way to deal with this….
cheers, david
BURNIANS,
I am here too…I am a MAN and A WOMAN…I am A CITIZEN of the world!!!
Photos,music,food,love and drinks are on the BURN table…
It’s SUMMER and we are traveling…business is slow…kids have no school…taking care the roof before the rain comes…shooting on polaroid:) snob too…flirting is on the menu…want more???
I miss you all…but my internet access is limited due to severe “human” conditions
I have so much to share with all of you…cause Mr.DAH made this place a Universal HOME!!!
THANK you MR.HARVEY and all of you behind the scenes ( Socrates,L,A,MC,KP…………)
P.S Haik ,if you can help DavidB…I dropped my jaw …can you recover it, too???:)))
LOVE BURNIANS, BURN BURNIANS…CIVILIANS are waiting to Buy your PHOTOS…
DAH
sounds great, looking forward and please ask if there is something you’d like me to do, if I can manage time/energy, of course will..yes, choosing what might sell is something of a gamble, I know I have hesitated to buy work that I deeply respect because I can’t quite live with it everyday, I recently almost bought a Ingar Krauss portrait but in the end it didn’t hold my attention long enough, despite how much I respect his work..photo week could open things up to buyers who are looking beyond personal collecting or wall art, hence an additional market. When I was at Vision gallery, to the individual buyer, beyond the man rays and kertesz’ we sold a lot of (and along the lines of) Keith Carter..and then of course images a la Koudelka’s dog in the snow..graphic, unending appeal without being too specific or confrontational…But the corporate buyer loved the color field, series, ambiguity, as far as I can recall..some classic architecture too, but that’s mostly the vintage market. Luckily some of us here are old enough to nearly have vintage work :))
I still think offering Magnum signed books would be a sales generator for burn, if not in conflict with Magnum rules..
I have to share a secret…
When I go through your essays…I DANCE …I DANCE …and I dance!!!
LOVE PEACE and PHOTOGRAPHY
SHOOT till there is no tomorrow….
VIVA !!!
P.S I WILL be back
And now, the news of the day…
Scandal, yes, loathsome and always dreaded scandal has come to our now not so happy little burg, and I find it shocking and more than a little distasteful to have to report such reprehensible goings on to the public. But truth will out, as Thomas Edison didn’t say either before or after inventing the electric light bulb—he didn’t even say something vaguely similar to that, if you want to know the truth, although he was heard complaining about an intense case of flatulence that made his intestines sound like an amateur tuba quintet playing something by Vivaldi for the better part of a week—and if you do not hear such news from an impartial observer like myself you may hear the news from scandalmongers, gossips, and possibly even such vile creatures as life insurance salesmen, and who knows what type of spin they will put on the story in order to make it sound even worse than it is.
I will grant you, however, that it is difficult, at best, to imagine a set of circumstances in which someone could make the police arresting the mayor of our fair micropolis for assaulting a real estate developer with a fully charged fire extinguisher during a meeting of the City Council sound worse that it really was, but I am sure that someone with enough imagination could do just that if they really wanted to. And I would be remiss in my duties here if I did not point out that the mayor was provoked almost beyond the limits of human endurance, and that, frankly, both the developer and the nuns had it coming. The facts of the matter are these: last Thursday, at the semimonthly meeting of the solons who govern our fair community, the question of what to do with the nuns came up for the millionth time. The good sisters are leaving us—their order has decided to sell their convent and move them to another house further upstate—and so the question of what to do with the land the convent now stands on has turned the usual placid flow of municipal politics into a raging torrent of hatred and recrimination. One faction is for turning the whole area into a park, another wants to sell the land for development. I will not bore the reader with the ins and outs of this dispute; suffice it to say that the mayor wanted a new city park and the rest of the board wanted development and the mayor lost this argument big time. Frankly, I didn’t think that was possible in any city-wide election unless the dead voted too, which they are sometimes wont to do in this neck of the woods. Our happy little burg is a very inclusive community, unwilling to damage the patriotic self-esteem of even the most deceased of our citizens, and so we are one of the few places in the United States that can boast that many of the same people who voted for John Quincy Adams also voted for George W. Bush twice; family is just that important to us here.
Defending the honor of his family was, in my opinion, the root cause of the events that marred the civil calm our citizens have grown accustomed to. At last Thursday’s meeting the developer, a thoroughly unlikable man with pretensions to obnoxiousness, if not outright swinishness, brought up the fact, as if we didn’t already know it, that he had bought the convent and wanted to start building his cookie cutter McMansions right away, and would the mayor therefore stop throwing legal obstacles in his way at every opportunity? The mayor denied right away that he was doing this, which, I must point out in a spirit of fairness, is codswallop piled on poppycock topped with balderdash. The mayor may have lost the vote over the land’s fate, but he’s been strangling the project in so much red tape ever since that everyone knows he’s just waiting for the developer to give up and move on to other projects. Most people either know or can find out for themselves that the German Army shot the last extant aurochs on this planet during the invasion of Poland in 1939, no doubt finding the beasts a welcome change from a diet of sardines and bratwurst, and as a result the developer should not have to provide an environmental impact statement detailing his project’s impact on the aurochs’ native habitat.
The developer, who along with being disagreeable in the extreme, is also a fairly excitable guy, lost his temper at this bald-faced departure from the facts as everyone knows them and began shouting at the mayor, liberally peppering his threats of legal action with a stream of invective that veered wildly from the merely libelous to the scatological, the profane, the blasphemous, and the obscene, sometimes combining all four at once. The mayor took the abuse with the stoic aplomb that more than one opponent has commented on, and then the developer brought up the mayor’s wife. Doing this is always a mistake. The mayor’s wife is a very nice woman these days and it does no one any good to bring up events from thirty years ago that really weren’t anyone’s fault; it’s not like anyone involved died as a result, except the goldfish; but the mayor is understandably touchy about the subject and those of us who live here understand his feelings and never bring the matter up amongst ourselves except when we are really bored and have nothing else to do. Having some smarmy loudmouth developer from out of town bring the subject up, and in a public forum, no less, was just too much for the mayor to bear, and he went sailing over the table and into low earth orbit to defend his wife’s honor, such as it is, in what was probably not the most graceful leap in the long annals of local politics.
Having gone up, the mayor then came down, and many witnesses told the reporters the next day that it was a good thing the mayor landed on the nuns sitting in the first row or he might have really hurt himself; the sisters are doing well, except for Sister Mary Margaret, who bore the full impact of the mayor’s nearly three hundred pound carcass landing on her lap. She is still in intensive care, but on the whole she held up much better than you would expect an eighty-five year old woman would to such an impact. The mayor pushed the developer up against the wall and then grabbed the fire extinguisher off the wall and tried to bash the real estate reprobate over the head with the thing. At this point, some members of the local gendarmerie came rushing into the City Council chamber in the not so nick of time and pulled the two men apart, arresting the mayor for assault and battery. They may have arrested the developer as well; I haven’t heard of any charges against him, though; being a first rate jerk is not yet a crime here in the Vampire State—if it were the state would as empty as Montana.
And that is all there is to the matter. I find having to recount such vile tales disagreeable in the extreme, for if those who lead us think so little of themselves and their obligations to the people who voted them into office, what hope is there for the ordinary citizen who only wants to lead a simple life free from civil strife? But in a democracy, the public must have the unvarnished truth, so that it can make wise decisions about the issues of the day and the people they send to the halls of power to represent them. If this screed helps the ongoing American experiment in democracy advance in any way, I will be satisfied. And no, I am not going to tell you about the damn goldfish.
AKAKIE !!!
YES. “In a democracy, the public must have the unvarnished truth”
WAY to go Aka…………..
WAY to go….
Where is BOB BLACK…??? and JOE…???
BTW I will go with the goldfish …:)))
where is THE CAT???
MARCIN…
coming…tomorrow..promise
ERICA…
yes, of course, i will make the print buying event as “friendly” as possible with perhaps a few icons for sale along with 90% Burn photographers….any buyer will know two things…they would be supporting Burn and the emphasis on emerging photogs and they will be looking at some very nice work indeed…so, we have to make it truly great…let’s get together for coffee after the 15th…since you are so close by, you may have more to do than most…at your leisure and pleasure of course….
cheers, david
GREAT is what we do BEST !!!
MARCIN,
are we talking about THE same CAT …who ate the fish when Mr.DAH was surfing with the fishermen???
No need to reply.
WHAT NOT TO LOVE !!!
P.S Stay strong BURNIANS…there is always HOPE …hmmmm….
BE BACK
David,
Furrukh’s essay was our first feature gallery. I think it could be a Burn calibre essay, what do you think? Maybe he should get in touch with you?
RAFAL…
absolutely…many thanks..i really like this work….
cheers, david
Imants …
No sarcasm… but I loved the “chair” photo…
Indeed…:)
AKAKY…
great story if true and i imagine that it is even if embellished which is what pro writers are paid to do…well, you couldn’t exaggerate much if indeed the mayor did take to the fire extinguisher as reported…makes dialogue here on Burn seem pretty tame in hindsight, although if we were all in the same room, well , who can imagine…the whole story does lead one to believe that if the town meeting were on Skype conference instead of doing it the old fashioned way then perhaps there would be peace in the valley..on the other hand, you would not have had such a hilarious story to tell…
cheers, david
DAVID
Did you ever come across your stash of Cuba books? Probably have not had time to look since you have been so busy.
ERICA…
sorry, i forgot to answer one of your questions…books…i have always mentored books on a variety of levels…in the last few years, i have gotten more and more involved included taking a good project to reputable editors i think would be interested…i am musing now over the possibility of a Burn imprint, perhaps in partnership with an established publisher…i see many many possibilities for us here on Burn and it is now simply a matter of bringing in a few other creative folks to help make some of these ideas a reality….the whole trick and mystery with book publishing from a purely business perspective is distribution and we might just be able to do it right here…in any case, yes, time for another meeting in the loft…
cheers, david
PETE…
my stash of Cuba books is in Washington…the last storage facility of the three i had to be cleaned out and brought all into one…three disaster areas to now be combined into one disaster zone…how is that for progress??
will view your link soonest..
cheers, david
So where exactly in DC is that…. grin
Thats cool. Hey don’t forget when you are in that area to let me know… dinner.
David,
From your point of view, how important is it that the prints sold through Burn be editioned? I am just curious. From my limited experience, when galleries sell prints this is a very important question because the fewer the prints the higher the prices.
Good luck with this endeavor. It is hard to sell anything right now let alone art.
Panos it’s all sweet………..
TOM….
yes, it is seriously hard to sell anything now…and i make no promises as to how successful we will be …but, let’s see what happens…
editions or not editions is always the question….and it just depends on so many factors….for this Burn presentation, i am imagining we will have both editions and open edition prints…i personally do both…some work is open , some work is limited…part of it is a financial issue and some of it is philosophical…expensive edition work ends up on the walls of only the wealthy or in a museum vault….open editions can find their way to a more mass audience..so, it depends on how you see your work as well as a business decision…some very well known photographers refuse to do limited editions, others only go limited…most galleries sell both….you choose….
cheers, david
David,
I will tell Furrukh to submit his work, ok?
DIANA
So happy to hear about the fabulous response to your work at last night’s opening!!! I was sorry to miss it but only just returned home last night from my weeklong driving trip to Vermont. How long will the show be up and what hours is it open? Please remind me of the name of the bar in Hamtramck.
I’m delighted that you’re feeling at home here in Detroit. It is an amazing city for anyone connected to or interested in music of ANY kind…
Patricia
P.S. Our very own David Bowen is an expert at knowing how to make a living photographing music clubs and bands. You can email him at david at bophoto.co.uk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-sReL3-8r4&feature=related
Neil Young ~ Down by the River (acoustic live audio)
“Down By The River”
Be on my side,
I’ll be on your side,
baby
There is no reason
for you to hide
It’s so hard for me
staying here all alone
When you could be
taking me for a ride.
Yeah, she could drag me
over the rainbow,
send me away
Down by the river
I shot my baby
Down by the river,
Dead, oh, shot her dead.
You take my hand,
I’ll take your hand
Together we may get away
This much madness
is too much sorrow
It’s impossible
to make it today.
Yeah, she could drag me
over the rainbow,
send me away
Down by the river
I shot my baby
Down by the river,
Dead, oh, shot her dead.
Be on my side,
I’ll be on your side,
baby
There is no reason
for you to hide
It’s so hard for me
staying here all alone
When you could be
taking me for a ride.
Yeah, she could drag me
over the rainbow,
send me away
Down by the river
I shot my baby
Down by the river,
Dead, oh, shot her dead.
hey y’all..
sorry for the downers but im a little broken hearted tonight:(
Kylie Minogue & Nick Cave – Where The Wild Roses…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLnKUiybiFo
HEY JOE, WHERE YOU GOIN’ WITH THAT GUN IN YOUR HAND
HEY JOE, I SAID WHERE YOU GOIN’ WITH THAT GUN IN YOUR HAND
I’M GOIN’ DOWN TO SHOOT MY OL’ LADY
YOU KNOW I CAUGHT HER MESSIN’ ‘ROUND WITH ANOTHER MAN
YEAH, I’M GOIN’ DOWN TO SHOOT OL’MY LADY
YOU KNOW I CAUGHT HER MESSIN’ ‘ROUND WITH ANOTHER MAN
HUH! AND THAT AIN’T TOO COOL
A-HEY JOE, I HEARD YOU SHOT YOUR WOMAN DOWN
YOU SHOT HER DOWN NOW
A-HEY JOE, I HEARD YOU SHOT YOUR OLD LADY DOWN
YOU SHOT HER DOWN IN THE GROUD
YEAH!
YES, I DID, I SHOT HER
YOU KNOW I CAUGHT HER MESSIN’ ROUND MESSIN’ ROUND TOWN
UH, YES I DID I SHOT HER
YOU KNOW I CAUGHT MY OLD LADY MESSIN’ ‘ROUND TOWN
AND GAVE HER THE GUN
AND I SHOT HER
ALRIGHT
SHOOT HER ONE MORE TIME AGAIN BABY!
YEAH!
OH DIG IT
OH ALRIGHT
HEY JOE,
WHERE YOU GONNA RUN TO NOW WHERE YOU GONNA RUN TO NOW
HEY JOE, I SAID
WHERE YOU GONNA RUN TO NOW WHERE YOU GONNA GO
I’M GOIN’ WAY DOWN SOUTH
WAY DOWN TO MEXICO WAY, ALRIGHT
I’M GOIN’ WAY DOWN SOUTH
WAY DOWN WHERE I CAN BE FREE
AIN’T NO ONE GONNA FIND ME
AIN’T NO HANG-MAN GONNA
HE AIN’T GONNA PUT A ROPE AROUND ME
YOU BETTER BELIEVE IT RIGHT NOW
I GOTTA GO NOW
HEY, JOE
YOU BETTER RUN ON DOWN
GOODBYE EVERYBODY
HEY HEY JOE
Sonic Youth – Superstar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjwgYvzQWS4
Nine Inch Nails – Hurt
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4VAv8y2hHM&feature=related
Nine Inch Nails – Closer
( this one is dedicated to my own hypocrisy towards my brother Imants…
i did re-visit the Etrousko website… i felt the chills, the agony, the sense of humor…
thanks Imants…)
David Bowie (feat Nine Inch Nails) – I’m Afraid Of Americans
I’m Afraid Of Americans
I’m Afraid Of Americans
Panos
The N.I.N. version is good but the Johnny Cash version ‘hurts’.
Mark…
i was hoping for that “correction”…
thank you
mtomalty,
I disagree. The Johnny Cash version ends with a sense of resolve. The “I will find a way” line is delivered conclusively, while the NIN original ends with that line being delivered almost as a question. You don’t believe he would find a way, and neither does the singer. The NIN version ends with an uncomfortable non-conclusion.
Don’t fret precious I’m here, step away from the window
Go back to sleep
Safe from pain and truth and choice and other poison devils,
See, they don’t give a f about you, like I do.
Count the bodies like sheep
Counting bodies like sheep
To the rhythm of the war drums
Why are these guys so pissed off ? Need an L.A. to Montreal translation !
I hurt myself today
To see if I still feel
I focus on the pain
The only thing that’s real
The needle tears a hole
The old familiar sting
Try to kill it all away
But I remember everything
[Chorus:]
What have I become
My sweetest friend
Everyone I know goes away
In the end
And you could have it all
My empire of dirt
I will let you down
I will make you hurt
I wear this crown of thorns
Upon my liar’s chair
Full of broken thoughts
I cannot repair
Beneath the stains of time
The feelings disappear
You are someone else
I am still right here
[Chorus:]
What have I become
My sweetest friend
Everyone I know goes away
In the end
And you could have it all
My empire of dirt
I will let you down
I will make you hurt
If I could start again
A million miles away
I would keep myself
I would find a way
Ahhhhhhhhhh u just got me started…….
HOLLYWOOD UNDEAD……..
if you ever lived in LA Mark??????
then , then… u know…………
( i was just talking to a friend a minute ago that im about to move in Paris..
please someone stop me…)
Don’t fret precious I’m here, step away from the window
Go back to sleep
Safe from pain and truth and choice and other poison devils,
See, they don’t give a fuck about you, like I do.
Count the bodies like sheep
Counting bodies like sheep
To the rhythm of the war drums
LA……….sure… let me tell u..
A 17 year old girl jumped out the window yesterday at the apartment complex next to me…
into the pool… she missed the water .. paralyzed… meth… crystal meth…
A student shot another fellow student in a highschool in south central LA…
both events didnt even make it at the local news….
… and they tell me to be a PJ…
bullshit… Jim where were you? Ahhhhhhhh i know…
somewhere in Texas embedded with the cops, photographing the truck that backed on that “pigs” cop car that me and the rest of the taxpayers paying for…
how about: “bullshit”
Paris…….enough said :>))
Ahhh, Panos, you posted the Cash version of Hurt. It was his epitaph. He owns it now. Real honest power like that is so rare …
And Down by the River has been playing in my head all week … of course Neil is always on in the pickup, windows down, hot as hell, blowing through the gravel turns, dust flying, headed down to the river …
Tuned in.
Antichrist Superstar: From Dead To The World
whatever suits u…
America welcomes u… as long as u believe….
Mark did it…
but hey i did the Neil Young…
stay tuned
big hug
David,
I appreciate your honest answer about editions. Thanks.
Brian…….. hmmmmmmmmmmm…
interesting……… & true!
Last call…..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DEtA5fhk4k
ok last one…
i cant believe… how much i love this one…
i love , feel, accept, recognize …
love this country to the fullest…( thats why i gotta go )…
coz my beloved country hurts.. hurts .. hurts…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1DEtA5fhk4k
goodnight y’all…
peace
“…….Men walkin long the railroad tracks
Goin someplace theres no goin back
Highway patrol choppers comin up over the bridge
Hot soup on a campfire under the bridge
Shelter line stretchin round the corner
Welcome to the new world order
Families sleepin in their cars in the southwest
No home no job no peace no rest
The highway is alive tonight
But nobodys kiddin nobody about where it goes
Im sittin down here in the campfire light
Searchin for the ghost of tom joad
He pulls a prayer book out of his sleeping bag
Preacher lights up a butt and takes a drag
Waitin for when the last shall be first and the first shall be last
In a cardboard box neath the underpass
Got a one-way ticket to the promised land
You got a hole in your belly and gun in your hand
Sleepin on a pillow of solid rock
Bathin in the city aqueduct
The highway is alive tonight
Where its headed everybody knows
Im sittin down here in the campfire light
Waitin on the ghost of tom joad
Now tom said mom, wherever theres a cop beatin a guy
Wherever a hungry newborn baby cries
Where theres a fight against the blood and hatred in the air
Look for me mom Ill be there
Wherever theres somebody fightin for a place to stand
Or a decent job or a helpin hand
Wherever somebodys strugglin to be free
Look in their eyes mom youll see me.
Well the highway is alive tonight
But nobodys kiddin nobody about where it goes
Im sittin down here in the campfire light
With the ghost of old tom joad…….”
big hug… we shall overcome..
we have to……..
For Panos:
Slow Blues
Too many JukeJoints,
Too much sad rhyme,
Bad wine and slow Blues
Blowin’ out of time.
Dropped “D” benediction,
Waitin’ for the end,
My sin and your song,
Just can’t make it blend.
A Cleric with a Tele?
Ain’t gonna play that scene,
Clean tone and folk songs,
Don’t know what it means.
One star on the marquee,
You play that gig so well,
My hell and your cross,
We only got one nail.
No trouble with this Tele,
Know her curves so well,
Motels and stale beer,
Still ain’t no magic spell.
You want to call it love?
Then it’s gonna kill me.
Learned to flat the five,
Just can’t bend the “G”.
Maybe David needs to start a MUSIC thread. Or Panos needs to start a music blog.
Ah, few people post at the time Panos does the DJ thing, anyway. He does find some interesting stuff!
Jim…:)
thank you for the “Slow Blues”..
and thank you for your understanding..
Yep, u got a big heart.. no doubt..
peace out
I would never deny Panos’ eclectic taste in music. Yes he does find some good stuff.
DAH
burn imprint..that’s what I was thinking you were thinking, down the road a little..seems completely viable and like an organic course..
if you find yourself with time it would be great to hear a bit about (artist pitfalls / trends / over arching) impressions that you have heard from publishers during your process of bringing work to their attention to date..
****Did you see my post way back about wanting to ask you a series of questions for an interview for scribbling in the dark? Could be done here, or on a new thread, one question at a time..they won’t hurt, my questions are already written..
A BURN imprint through a service like Blurb, with DAH as executive editor of the series could be a very big deal in the world of photography publishing.
no blurb for the imprint! through Aperture, Rizzo, Phouse..etc..shoot high!
Photography publishing — as photography publishing — is itself too small. Aperture runs on fumes anyway. Power to the people! If not Blurb, then how about Amazon’s self-publishing service? Imagine the resources they could throw at DAH.
I just haven’t seen an on demand publisher that I’d want to use as my final result, given a choice..maybe fastback..if need be..or ho about our own printer? Gotta love that Eugene Richards printed the first run of Dorchester days on equipment meant for printing jelly jar labels..
handmade book, maybe???
we can all send dried “film” and make it “”earth-photo” looking.
WHAT NOT TO LOVE!!!
P.S Erica, I think MR.DAH is drinking his NC coffee and Skyping someone from the photoUniverse…
After, we can all see you shooting your questions along with some music from the in home DJ !!!
Have a beautiful day or night everyone…and keep BURNing…
JIM,
will you accept my key???
And Alec Soth printed the first 25 copies of “Sleeping by the Mississippi” on his inkjet.
Dear Civilian… do your keys open any doors on Crete?
impressions that you have heard from publishers during your process of bringing work to their attention
—————————————-
Is david doing that? I always got the feeling his point is to alert someone to the possibilities and resources, but for that someone to make the steps, that David does not do the “knocks on the door” (which if I recall one example, had one, maybe more, “disappointed”, to use a mild term, by him).
Not saying that in the course of the last 2 years, David didn’t talk about someone’s work to a publisher, but that may not deliver enough feedback to answer your question, relative to work shown thru/on BURN.
What you say, and Preston too, David yesterday (Aperture…let’s cross our fingers) is so illuminating of the state of flux of the whole P publishing world. On one side, the traditional way: reputable P. publishing house with name recognition and books on bookstores shelves, ie. the traditional, and on the other, the still decried adventure of self-publishing , self-something, using totally new and different ways to ” show the world”. Where is the real high-shooting? In te traditional, or the totally new?….
Dearest Andrew,
Why Crete???
any old flames BURNing down there???
But I think we could ask that “impression” question to Patricia and Panos, whom projects are nearing publishing fruition. What have they learnt so far, from the process? Have they reached a point where they will finally be published? Should they bother how the book be promoted and distributed? etc…..
HERVE
from dah to me
“in the last few years, i have gotten more and more involved included taking a good project to reputable editors i think would be interested”
……….
I just feel that the internet and mm are so wide open, that if one is to make a printed piece it should be artful..now if the technology of on demand publishers does justice to a ‘style’ or expression, that’s great..and Soth also printed The last days of W on newsprint, because he wanted to show his kids ( I believe he said) what he and we went through 20 years from now, through a yellowing newspaper. I’m not suggesting that one print medium standard should be applied to all work, but that the medium should uphold and support nd make poignant that work instead of detracting from it.
When I saw my first run dummy from an on demand publisher, printed at ‘premium’, I was pleased with the quality for a dummy. But when I hold a book of richly printed duotones in my hands, I feel the work is served as it should be. The visual experience is a sensual one, and I think that needs to be honored.
I am pretty sure that Burn gets more hits in a month (or a day?) than Aperture’s website gets in a year. What’s the print run for one of their books — 500 copies? How quickly are those books remaindered, a matter of weeks?
You can call things like Blurb “self publishing,” but the company is just a printer and a distribution channel — both of which are only just now being tested in sophisticated ways.
As a photographer, I want to move product and tap as many audiences as I can. The traditional photo-buying, gallery-going crowd is tiny. If I had a book, I would hate for its appeal to be limited to the Aperture mailing list. It’s nice that the photogs we most admire were published by presses like Aperture. But despite the apparent prestige of the company, it’s small potatoes given the scale of activity that can be generated by projects like Burn.
ERICA…ANDREW
the demand for hand made books is rising….i am now in the process of building a darkroom just to make 25 handmade copies of my original “Off For a Family Drive”…i have been able to purchase 50 yr old vintage photo albums online and will do the whole album all over again on the same enlarger etc…i cannot use the same paper, but all else the same…it only makes sense that “one of a kind” books would have great value if the work warrants…i will also publish a “mainstream” version of the whole American family project of course (that is , if i can ever finish/finance)…originally i was just going to have the original album reproduced as the forward for the main book, but at the insistent urging of my Magnum colleagues, particularly Martin Parr and Jim Goldberg, who saw the original album for the first time this past june at our meeting, i am going full bore on the hand made copies…ironically my new darkroom looks and feels just like my original one as a kid…same trees outside, same smells, same size…weird..good weird….please visit…
i want to speak with both of you in person soonest..i will be back in nyc at the end of august, so if you have time let us please meet….
cheers, david
Absolutely, Erica, but that is a bit the point. That something be totally re-invented, at all levels. I am reminded of PIcasso’s (him again!) word about museums “why go to a museum when I can look at it in a book?”.
HERVE…
Mike Young is ready with Blues , Booze and Barbeque to start thinking promo etc..his book comes out in the fall….Patricia and Panos still in the stages of early production…Patricia and Panos should not be thinking about these things yet…Patricia is one step ahead of Panos in the production, but even she needs to think only about the content at this point..first things first
ERICA…
i agree with you about the nature of a book…a tactile object should be tactile..however, some photographers may find value in the on demand book system…we are going to have a deal here soonest with Blurb for those photographers who so desire this type of book…for some subject matter, i think the Blurb books are quite good and are getting better all the time…Stephen Shore sold Blurb style books at his exhibition several years ago…limited edition..i think he had 100 copies to sell..with a small print…there are many ways to go with this…many options, all our choice to make…obviously it is certainly not a bad idea to have a Blurb book to show a mainstream publisher as well , if for no other reason than to show your work in a reasonably nice way…
cheers, david
PRESTON…
you are right on it and correct in your thinking…we already are larger in scope of audience than is Aperture….it is distribution distribution and distribution…hand made books, limited edition books carefully printed in Italy, Blurb books..well, we can distribute them all right here…
the other quite obvious thing is this…if we do ONE truly great book with a BURN imprint, we will suddenly become prestigious as a publisher…not far fetched at all….stay tuned….
ALL…
if everyone stops catfighting and concentrates on their work , we can do many truly important things here on Burn…this collaborative at the moment knows no bounds….please put your energies into your good work…i pay attention to who does what…i cannot publish everyone’s everything of course…but this is as close as you will get to having some say in where your work goes, how it looks, etc…how could i ever represent anything other than full photographer control over their work???
Burn Magazine online is often a scramble…as i have described before, like backstage at a theatrical performance…the point is, the question is: what will our Burn efforts look like in print??? when the “curtain opens”…up to you my friends, up to you…..
cheers, david
I guess MR.DAH had a big cup of coffee today !!!
Thank you BURN AUDIENCE …you are the magic power behind the scenes!!!
P.S I will have the BURN imprint in my brain (leftover)cells forever…
yeap…
Absolutely, that’s what I meant about on demand being a good option for dummies, but also if it fits the nature of the work..
but let’s face it, i’m a book junky (Wim Wenders’ ONCE and Looking In – Robert Frank for my upcoming birthday..and I was paging through my tattered Cafe Lehmitz original last night, in awe..) Now what am i going to do to get a hand printed Off for a Family Drive without going to debtor’s prison :))) THAT sounds amazing..
but also if it fits the nature of the work..then it is a strong solution in general as a method of publishing..(I meant)
TECHIE QUESTION
when I post I get bounced back to the thread’s previous page..why?
ERICA…
i was just co-teaching with Anders Peterson in Tuscany…
David,
I agree with you about Blurb. You can work your images with them to get a pretty respectable project. Another to look at would be http://editiononebooks.com/ . Not too sure how it works but I think there may be something to these folks.
Paul
…but this is as close as you will get to having some say in where your work goes, how it looks, etc…how could i ever represent anything other than full photographer control over their work???
—————————————————–
Burn is
provocative
educational
inclusive
eye-opening
joyous
inspirational
beautiful
If a book happens, Blurb or otherwise, count me an as a volunteer/contributor/whatever. A Burn book would be glorious.
DAH..
oh had I known! I doubt I could have managed the workshop with you both but I would have asked to send along a book to sign, and maybe some interview questions..I just this morning finished transcribing lensculture’s interview with him, soon to be posted at scribbling..does he come stateside much? I’m a little obsessed with his images and have been corresponding with his printer to understand their surface. I feel like something similar could work for my dark light of this nothing project..
maybe you’ll do a post on him or get him here live.. :)) I am so curious as to the man behind the work.
you really have the life..but i will not be jealous, instead i will aspire to join the ranks!
DAVID
I had hoped to catch you on skype to chat about the Remote Medical shoot and thank you for looking it over. Since I haven’t had the chance, I did not want too much time to go by in thanking you. I do appreciate it.
If we can hook up on skype in the next couple of days I would love to chat about it. If not, again, thank you!
Breaking News from Venice Beach y’all..
pretty quick:
2 ex-Greenpeace members ( Venice natives )
are raising Awareness about the killing of SEA LIONS
from the fishermen backed and supported by our NAVY…
visit their website here:
http://www.oceanmammals.net
now what we decided is to work together..
They own a small boat so they asked me to help
record the poor innocent SEA LION MASSACRE..
( u can find dead lion bodies in city trashcsns..!!!!!:()
anyway I promised to do my best..
That should be another “angle” of tortured Venice…
Anyway stay tuned..
… and thank you Burn…
if I disappear or found my body in a trashcan
at least you will know the reason why..:(
ok.. that’s all for now
big hug
Taken from the Oceanmammals website
“These animals are goofy, loud, and obnoxious,……..”
Seems like they could be describing a good portion of the Burn population.
Seriously,though, Panos. To make some waves you really have to come up with some
nasty, tough images.
The few Oceanmammals post on their website won’t illicit much outrage as the images are a little too tame.
OIME
“I begin to sing of Poseidon, the great god, mover of the earth and of the barren sea, the sea-god who is lord of Helicon and Aegae.”
Homeric Hymn to Poseidon
PANOS, may Poseidon be good with you…
P.S Can at least have your Leica…:)))
I get his Chucks!
Seriously, be safe but kick some ass, my friend.
Safe travels Panos
PETE…
oh, i thought you just wanted a straight edit…perhaps we can Skype in the next couple of days..anyway, i assume you saw my selection..
ERICA…
yes, i am a big fan of Anders as well…i do not think he comes much to the U.S. , but he did mention that New York was his favorite city, so maybe we can coax him a bit…
MTOMALTY…
yes, i think this is good advice..
BRIAN…
thanks for your support..we may indeed put you to work!!! i think your essay is ready to go..i will check in the morning….
cheers, david
Uncle Dave – I uploaded 40 odd lo res to Anton , I’t needs a brutal edit – There’s just so much , hard to tell the difference between a hard won photo and a good one from where I stand .
I am currently in a community called Wugular and still shooting so the work I have sent is still the story so far……I have a feeling that it will never end!
Best
DAH, sounds great.
BTW, I have almost 15 years of prepress experience, including page layout, trapping and separations. Feel free to tap in to it.
DAVID (and emcd)
also huge fan of anders peterson. who else was on the roster in tuscany? erica–have you seen peterson’s work on nyc? probably…..wait wait, sorry i think that’s morten anderson….sorry
best
k
When DAH talks about my focusing on content rather than publishers, distribution, promo and such, he knows whereof he speaks. Working on a book is a lot like running a marathon: the last kms are the hardest. I haven’t exactly hit the Wall but I have had my share of late-night wonderings if I can really do this thing. Not just do it, but do it well. Interestingly enough, it isn’t the images that are keeping me up nights but the text.
But today, after reading the final 105 pages (out of 170 pages) of my transcribed interviews with Carl Bower, a photographer who kindly came to Detroit to help me with this text, I’m feeling better. I think there’s some good stuff in there that will hopefully fulfill Gene Richards’ trust that I could create text as personal and intimate as my self portraits. It was his suggestion that I record my answers to questions posed by a friend and then use that as a basis for my text. Step-by-step-by-step it is coming together or, as my husband Ed so aptly said tonight, it is “falling into place.”
And David, you were right again: I wasn’t done with my self portraits either. After reading two of Carl’s questions in today’s transcription, I went out and took “just one more” for the book. His questions were: “What is the aching of muscle memory? When muscles remember, what do they think about?” The image you see if you click on this link answers as best I can:
http://www.pbase.com/image/115580933
Patricia
By the way, I do not see Falling Into Place as a text-heavy book. The photos will be presented without captions, followed by no more than 3-5 pages of text. At least that’s how I see it now.
Patricia
hi patricia,
youve harnessed all of your energy to spark some motion into this little big project of yours…
dont forget the thrill and enjoy this momentum,
just cruise and feel the cool wind on your face and in your hair.
wishing you all the best
g
DAH,
A visit to the darkroom sounds great. If you have time this winter, maybe I can stop when I drive down to see my family in South Carolina. And I’ll be around to meet in NYC this month. I’ll try to keep up with your schedule and arrange a time. Erica mentioned vacation at the end of the month, but I’m not sure of her exact dates.
As you work on “Off For a Family Drive,” does it feel like you’re coming full circle with your career and that at the end of the project you’ll be free to go in a new creative direction?
CIVILIAN: I have no old flames on Crete, but many fond memories of an incredible trip to Greece in 1990 in which a visit to Crete had to be scratched from the itinerary due to lack of money. I’ve never lost the idea of returning to your country and finally making it to Crete. So I figured your keys probably open many doors!
andrew
ERICA,
Have you seen A FILM ABOUT WITH ANDERS PETERSEN? It’s a great documentary about Anders made by his former assistant and friend JH Engström.
It’s in swedish, but I think it might be worth looking at anyway if you’re a big fan of his.
Cheers
@ ALL
Hey, Hi every one here in BURN. August comes… summer time! Great :-)
In exactly one month VISA Pour l’Image begins in Perpignan, southern France. I wonder to know how many of you are going there?
What about a big BURNian meeting somewhere in the city?
Hope C U there, Patricio
David;
Here in NZ I’ve noticed that there has been a trend for some photographers to concentrate on small (6×8 inch) limited edition books (approx 600 copies) to accompany a travelling gallery display. They charge a premium for both the books and prints. It seems to be a good working model.
So as usual, DDavid you ssm to be ahead of the pack! :-)
Cheers
Should have read “So as usual, David you seem to be ahead of the pack! :-)”
Sorry
Evening all..
Am just in and wanted to share.. an amazing 6 hours of power shooting, 5 rolls of film, and out of all the people I photographed 1 person was a ‘tough customer”..couldn’t lift the camera to shoot him, he was just sort of scary, thought he might get really angry and lash out..I snuck a couple of frames when he was unaware, but finally mustered my strength and asked because the look on his face was so powerfully strong and filled with attitude..he gave a mean nod, I lifted the camera, and he cracked up laughing, all smiles..it was perfect. i didn’t shoot it but i laughed with him and made a friend..always be ready for your preconceptions to be shattered..
Martin.. I tried to find it before..do you know where I can see it?
Dear ANDREW SULLIVAN,
I will e-mail you as soon as I will stop knocking up the Universe…
I meant as soon as I will be back in Greece…
Yes my keys are your keys…therefore it’s always good to have an insider by your side…
I have limited connection…I have to wrap it up…
Your home is not in Crete…BUT,there is one hidden gem down there in Crete and definitely is on
THE LIST…IMAGINE only the possibilities :)))
I will be back…smile Andrew…I’ve heard you are a true BURNIAN…well done, my man
See ya soon
LOVE TO ALLLLLLLL…Katie wake up, MyGracie ice cream, Davidb how is the “hard” thing???
BURNIANS…keep the fire…I want more passion
ERICA,
Swedish television recently showed it a couple of times again and even had it on their website to see, but unfortunately I saw that they took it off in June. I’ll let you know if I find it.
Cheers
Testing. Testing. Is this thing working? :)
New essay? Anyone?
Jim, well yes, quite a few (but not on Burn)… ;-)
All
I and friend of mine just opened own photo studio. It is 115 m2 where I hope soon will happen an exhibitions of good photography also. We will open for everyone who will want presents his work in Poland. Right now we working at best way of showing work and looking for sponsors for free pirints. We want to start about September October. I will keep you inform. Right now I have still a lot of refit work in this place.
We still organize the place.
http://marcinluczkowski.com/photo/studio2.jpg
peace
Marcin…
Congratulations…:))))
Panos
I hope you will agree for presentation of your works.I would like to show your photography here in poland.
What you say?
You know what I say..
You better sell something..:)))
we are starving over here…:)))
… Now I have a great reason to visit Poland..
can’t wait:)
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x42u0_miles-davis-so-what-1959_music
Panos
So do I… If my camera could not be so used I should sell my equipment right away… but like blue fish sings “just keep swimming… just keep swimming” :))
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmyUkm2qlhA
great you agreed I will give you a not when we will ready :)
And before you book your trip to Prague, czech this out:
http://www.joost.com/?playNow=163u9vz#id=163u9vz
Akaky..
Very soulful. Thanks.
Fantastic news, Marcin!!! The space looks wonderful…
Patricia
Jim, every August DAH’s extended family gets together for at least two weeks. I think he is hosting this year’s gathering there on North Carolina’s Outer Banks, so I’d imagine he doesn’t have a lot of time to spend on the internet. I’d say our fearless leader/mentor/curator deserves a few weeks’ vacation. May they have bright skies, cooling breezes at night and lots of fun together…
Patricia
Wow, Marcin. looks cool! I guess it is a dream coming thorugh for you guys.
PS send me an invitation for the opening, you know the train from Berlin only takes a few hours – and the board restaurant is great:)
DAH, ALL
Hey everyone, How is everyone?
I’ve been a bit busy so I haven’t kept up on the reading again, but I wanted to share a new project I’ve started.
Panos – This one is a little bit inspired by you during the conersation of music and photography.
http://iphonephotojournalist.blogspot.com
So what this is about, is a study of photography through a simple cellphone camera. Although it’s a part of one of the fanciest phones ever created, it’s still a fuzzy little 2 megapixel camera. I’m testing to see if the old saying for film still applies to digital – It doesn’t take the best camera in the world to take the best photographs. I think the better the Digital, the beter the quality of the photos taken but a huge D3, or my D700 with a 14-24mm lens on it it a bit too obtrusive and gets noticed too easily. where as a tiny cellphone can go unnoticed by nearly everyone. Lighting is sometimes an issue, but it’s still my fun little experiment.
Any criticism, comments, critiques on my posts would be wonderful. I only have two up so far, but I plan to update it continuosly.
Peace!
Let us all celebrate fuzzy images.
Kodak as a tribute to Kodachrome at http://homepage.1000words.kodak.com/default.asp?item=2388083
I found their “slideshow of great KODACHROME moments” interesting…. apparently only Steve McCurry, Eric Meola and Peter Guttman are the only photographers that shot with the film.
I know the text does say “a small sampling of great artists… but there are so many MORE…
It should have said “slideshow of SOME great Kodachrome moments.
I know, probably a big rights issue, but I bet they didn’t bother to ask.
It may have been a great film, although I think Velvia blows it away now, but lets face it…
If not for the photographers, it is just film.
OK done ranting. We now return you to your regularly scheduled programming…
We must be near the Pano’s DJ hour…. (just teasing panos)
HA
OK who did not see Jim’s comment coming?
Hahaha Crusty old editors… Hey with the direction that many newspapers are going in my area, that’s all we’ll see in the future! They are laying off everyone and won’t hire a freelance photog as freelance demanding a work for hire release to be signed. I refuse to shoot under those conditions. So anyone who has a nifty point and shoot can submit a photo of an event now. It’s pathetic. I love great quality images. don’t get me wrong. But this project of mine, isn’t about that.
Jason, I suggest you look at Michal Daniel’s series “In Your Face” with a similar premise. Where he succeeds, is making use of the small camera to get real intimate moments. What I’m seeing in your project thus far is a lack of closeness that working with a cell phone camera should allow. You said your big Nikon is obtrusive, but you seem to still be shooting like you’re still hauling it around. You need to push yourself to explore what the unique aspects of photographing with something so inconspicuous.
It’s an interesting idea, and I’ve been thinking about doing something similar myself, especially during the coming Iowa State Fair. Stay with it.
Have to agree with Brian, Jason. Your shots are just snaps, which is ok, but you do not make us too interested in the concept you take them with, ie. using a tiny cell phone.
Hola, Marcin! I hope to visit within the next 2 years… And exhibit too! Congrats, but also courage for this most generous endeavour. Will you expose paintings too?
my nite rant,
so i asked:
how do you shoot angry, pensive, dreamy, violated, happy, scared, confident, ecstatic…
i thought this was a valid question
and didnt expect to be stared at as if i was crazy
Patricia
Thank you :)
Andrea,
I will remember to sent you an invitation for fisrt opening. Sent me please you e-mail address to marcin.luczkowski@wp.pl. Thank you for your words.
Herve
Thanks my friend, you are always welcome. Yes, we will expose a paintings too from time to time, but first of all it will be place for photography. Many works before us. I hope everything will go stright.
Herve, Brian,
Thats something I’m working on. I have no schooling in photo documentaries. As for closeness, I don’t quite understand what you mean? I can only get so close before I’m taking people’s “ooh hey everyone group together! This is for myspace” type photographs.. I know some are snap shoty. there are technical limitations on my project, that I will attempt to overcome as time goes on. such as the fixed focus of an arm lenth’s distance, and the inability to shoot well in lowlight, no closeups, etc etc…
Perhaps you mean some kind of “close” that’s not physically close? In some of these shot’s I’m no more than two feet from the subject. Remember I just started this, I’ve been shooting journalisticly for only a few years and I’m all self taught. Which is why I’m here. Trying to get some bit of advice and information that will help me see better. :) So I thank you all for your comments and advice.
p.s. trying to develop this eye of mine.
Just looked at the “In your face” and that’s not exactly what I’m trying here. I don’t want head shots of people unaware I’m taking head shots. I want the relationship between people, environment, pets, etc… So I will continue my new project.. when it’s done perhaps I will have something else to show…
Basically, jason, try to work out of these limitations (not overcome them) as integral to your “cell-phone photography” vocabulary.
What I mean by overcome is I use small handheld lenses and filters. I don’t like not getting my shot because of a lack of equipment. I fabricate simple work arounds that still get me the shot I see. And cost nearly nothing. And are easy to work. I’m not a strong arty, whispy, poetic photographer. So the limitations I have to work with are my own, I don’t intend to be limited forever. This is an exploration to help me achieve something stronger.
“so i asked:
how do you shoot angry, pensive, dreamy, violated, happy, scared, confident, ecstatic…”
The answer is, you don’t shoot any of that. You shoot people. Sometimes they exhibit those emotions or traits.
Jason, Don’t let people know you are about to take a shot. Act like you’re looking up a phone number, whatever. Some time ago, someone told me that the really good PJ believe that they are invisible. They can walk into a situation, shoot, and walk out. It’s tough to do, but it should be easier with a camera phone. Work on being invisible.
Jason..
you may take inspiration from the artful cellphone photographer Shawn Rocco
hear him talk about his use here and see some images..
http://www.pdnpulse.com/2009/02/shawn-roccos-cell-phone-photography.html
Marcin..congratulations!!
Erica, thats fantastic. I suppose thats more of my direction.
Marcin, That space looks wonderful. Congrats, I think you will have a lot of fun with a gallery.
jim,
thanks. for a while there i thought it wasnt worth posting between old friends’ exchanges and updates. felt really out of place.
i find i see a lot of emotion even in things and empty places other than people and i cant make my camera take it. such a neophyte… poor me. i want the mood set in stone with f stops and shutter speeds and changing perspective.
you know how dreamy could be out of focus (har har har)… like vignetting in a holga can feel like im living a dream… any thoughts? i hope you get where im drifting… but thanks for taking notice
OK now for something totally different.
Yesterday’s NYT’s Magazine had an incredible article by Michael Pollan, a contributing writer, the Knight Professor of Journalism at the University of California, Berkeley. His most recent book is “In Defense of Food: An Eater’s Manifesto.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/02/magazine/02cooking-t.html?pagewanted=1&th&emc=th
This story will lure you into something that will surprise you. It’s much more complex
and meaningful than it seems.
Let me quote: “Erica Gruen, the cable executive often credited with putting the Food Network on the map in the late ’90s, recognized early on that, as she told a journalist, “people don’t watch television to learn things.””
Can our world be shaped by how we share a meal? Have our most basic instincts been
reduced to efficiency?
PLEASE READ THE ARTICLE BEFORE YOU RESPOND.
Ok, have at it. LET IT BURN!!!
Gracie, I think I know where you are going. I have an ongoing personal project where I’m trying to photograph the energy an emotion that remains when people are not in a place…empty benches, playgrounds, etc. When the lovers have moved on, and the children that played are home in bed. I know standing in these places that feelings and emotion are there. I can feel it. But it’s very difficult to photograph. How do you reveal these things? I don’t know.
http://www.39thframe.com/Bench3.jpg
DAH, Civilian, Gracie, Panos, Gordon, Rafal, Pete, Imants, Jim, Patricia, Herve, Haik, etc. etc.
so many to say hello to..to run around and boisterously dispense kisses on cheeks, hugs to shoulders and maybe pinch a few cute buttocks..oops! heh!
DAH, i didn´t leave because of anything or anybody but me..i needed to figure some creative stuff out and also take better care of myself..SO! i been using all my previous Burn time working (natch´) and painting, drawing, spending gobs of together time with my family and also turning into a bit of a gym rat. The good news creatively is that after a month or so away from photography i discovered i missed it terribly and that´s a real good thing. I even sat down to put some photos together to send to Burn but instead of having a creative crisis of faith i am now having a Mac crisis of technology so you´ll have to wait to hear from me…er..see my work..even if you hate it..still gonna send it your way. Maybe you´ll have time to check it out. I used to be so scared of what you´d say but not anymore.
DAH, you keep doing what you do..i hear about you in r/t and it´s all good..people who know you, they say yer a good man. That makes me sit taller in my seat and blush a little as if i actually know you, as if someone said something really nice about a really good friend of mine. Makes me real proud.
So Civilian, my beloved Greek thinker and Gracie, my pretty blond poet, you have no idea how good it is to see your names and your words here. Made me smile and smile and smile..i think often of you both and send gobs of love your way.
Patricia, great to see you speaking up around here again..Jim, loved the ¨Slow Blues¨ song you posted..was great to see that side of you. Inmants, loved your essay..reminded me of movies back in the 20´s by Fernand Leger..sort of the same feeling i got though the material was different. Gordon, hope you and your family are having a wonderful summer and Herve, hope you´re getting lots of parades. Pete..keep being your tongue in cheek self, i ALWAYS love your comments..hope you can snag one of those Cuba books. Rafal, keep thinking, babe.
To all the rest…shoot like your life depends on it because down the road, it´s all you´ll have to show for the passage of time that is life.
My love to all..
Kathleen
yes jim,
this is what i mean. i would email you offsite about this… hmmm. not really a project.
i have so much stuff that i have written about but i cant match up pictures with them.
so what i do now… i make the pictures then i write… well, i think that is the better idea.
but then what do i know?
but … but then maybe
you can do a black and white rendition of a playground, tack sharp except for one thing
a blurry, very blurry swinging swing.
ps i appreciate you again noticing my rant…
kathleen,
nite duty has not been the same without you.
i too have been away from burn but instead i spent time with myself and DID some photography
and found myself writing even more as i did more photography…
at best, i am a poet and a photographer second if i can even call myself that.
both though save me from my usual daily grunting runts of my day job.
i am happy youve had some RnR and hopefully youre soon to be seen up on the screen.
ive been thinking about you lots as i ate ranch sprinkled popcorn sharing a ginormous god-forbid-DIET coke with andrewb (in thought) – as requested – watching my red sunrise Burn in my backyard.
wow…
Jim….
I’m….
shocked…
love your latest project..
your
CONCEPT….
I will definitely think of that….
the energy of a place,
whats left…
mmmmmmm….
thanks for that…
and
kat
and
gracie
and
all…
hi…..
watch
the moon
get FULL….
swim naked…
dance….
and
make
pictures….
XOX
**
Michael Moore e-mail
Friends, Let me cut to the chase. The biggest robbery in the history of this country is taking place as you read this. Though no guns are being used, 300 million hostages are being taken. Make no mistake about it: After stealing a half trillion dollars to line the pockets of their war-profiteering backers for the past five years, after lining the pockets of their fellow oilmen to the tune of over a hundred billion dollars in just the last two years, Bush and his cronies — who must soon vacate the White House — are looting the U.S. Treasury of every dollar they can grab. They are swiping as much of the silverware as they can on their way out the door.
No matter what they say, no matter how many scare words they use, they are up to their old tricks of creating fear and confusion in order to make and keep themselves and the upper one percent filthy rich. Just read the first four paragraphs of the lead story in last Monday’s New York Times and you can see what the real deal is:
“Even as policy makers worked on details of a $700 billion bailout of the financial industry, Wall Street began looking for ways to profit from it.
“Financial firms were lobbying to have all manner of troubled investments covered, not just those related to mortgages.
“At the same time, investment firms were jockeying to oversee all the assets that Treasury plans to take off the books of financial institutions, a role that could earn them hundreds of millions of dollars a year in fees.
“Nobody wants to be left out of Treasury’s proposal to buy up bad assets of financial institutions.”
Unbelievable. Wall Street and its backers created this mess and now they are going to clean up like bandits. Even Rudy Giuliani is lobbying for his firm to be hired (and paid) to “consult” in the bailout.
The problem is, nobody truly knows what this “collapse” is all about. Even Treasury Secretary Paulson admitted he doesn’t know the exact amount that is needed (he just picked the $700 billion number out of his head!). The head of the congressional budget office said he can’t figure it out nor can he explain it to anyone.
And yet, they are screeching about how the end is near! Panic! Recession! The Great Depression! Y2K! Bird flu! Killer bees! We must pass the bailout bill today!! The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
Falling for whom? NOTHING in this “bailout” package will lower the price of the gas you have to put in your car to get to work. NOTHING in this bill will protect you from losing your home. NOTHING in this bill will give you health insurance.
Health insurance? Mike, why are you bringing this up? What’s this got to do with the Wall Street collapse?
It has everything to do with it. This so-called “collapse” was triggered by the massive defaulting and foreclosures going on with people’s home mortgages. Do you know why so many Americans are losing their homes? To hear the Republicans describe it, it’s because too many working class idiots were given mortgages that they really couldn’t afford. Here’s the truth: The number one cause of people declaring bankruptcy is because of medical bills. Let me state this simply: If we had had universal health coverage, this mortgage “crisis” may never have happened.
This bailout’s mission is to protect the obscene amount of wealth that has been accumulated in the last eight years. It’s to protect the top shareholders who own and control corporate America. It’s to make sure their yachts and mansions and “way of life” go uninterrupted while the rest of America suffers and struggles to pay the bills. Let the rich suffer for once. Let them pay for the bailout. We are spending 400 million dollars a day on the war in Iraq. Let them end the war immediately and save us all another half-trillion dollars!
I have to stop writing this and you have to stop reading it. They are staging a financial coup this morning in our country. They are hoping Congress will act fast before they stop to think, before we have a chance to stop them ourselves. So stop reading this and do something — NOW! Here’s what you can do immediately:
1. Call or e-mail Senator Obama. Tell him he does not need to be sitting there trying to help prop up Bush and Cheney and the mess they’ve made. Tell him we know he has the smarts to slow this thing down and figure out what’s the best route to take. Tell him the rich have to pay for whatever help is offered. Use the leverage we have now to insist on a moratorium on home foreclosures, to insist on a move to universal health coverage, and tell him that we the people need to be in charge of the economic decisions that affect our lives, not the barons of Wall Street.
2. Take to the streets. Participate in one of the hundreds of quickly-called demonstrations that are taking place all over the country (especially those near Wall Street and DC).
3. Call your Representative in Congress and your Senators. (click here to find their phone numbers). Tell them what you told Senator Obama.
When you screw up in life, there is hell to pay. Each and every one of you reading this knows that basic lesson and has paid the consequences of your actions at some point. In this great democracy, we cannot let there be one set of rules for the vast majority of hard-working citizens, and another set of rules for the elite, who, when they screw up, are handed one more gift on a silver platter. No more! Not again!
Yours,
Michael Moore
MMFlint@aol.com
MichaelMoore.com
( email from M.Moore to Tom Morello, guitar player from “Rage Against The Machine” )
…Katie………
welcomeeeeeeeeeeeeeee back:)))))))))))
Nice snapshot, Jim.
God’s Gonna Cut You Down
THE MAN IN BLACK
Tonight im in love with…the
Silversun Pickups
(Panic Switch)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7YBgNszINU&feature=fvw
Silversun Pickups- Shadowplay
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4vjg3Ou2Zuw&feature=related
The Killers – Shadowplay
… and of course the mighty original SHADOWPLAY
from Ian and the JOY DIVISION…
Ian Curtis epilepsy dance
Here are 2225 blurb books for you to look thru.
Entries in the Photography. Book. Now contest.
Register and vote for your favorite.
Great inspiration for anyone interested in publishing their own book.
http://www.blurb.com/bookstore/pbn
wendy – thanks for emailing haik..
haik – thanks for the help..
also Srini for the suggestion for london hard-drive fixing..
all good stuff..
DianaPrice
music photography, or photographing bands, is a tough one for many reasons.. first of which is that it´s not so difficult to stand in the pit for the first three songs, along with a dozen other photographers, and get ´the shot´ of him or her pulling ´that´expression, (often for the photographers), and then emailing it in.
it pays attrociously for the most part and magazines such as new music express will give you 100gbp for the night and insist that you sign away, non-exclusive worldwide rights to them for any use.. it´s rubbish.
at festivals the snappers i have met from getty and the like always seem so stressed.. they have to get to as many stages as possible to photograph the biggest names possible so their agency can earn the most money possible.
i think the main point is that by photographing bands it is very difficult to express your self or your talent.. there are simply too many people doing it and too many not charging for it, or signbing away their copyright.. i think a much better idea is to find the corner of youth culture which really gets you cooking and photograph everything within that.. evrything..
the bands themselves are often the least interesting when they are on stage, and from experience the best photographs over time, with a few exceptions (before someone mentions the clash ´london calling´), are candid ones of both the musicians off stage and teh fans enjoying the party / after party / trappings.
photographing bands from the pit is a funny one.. sometimes the pit is huge, yet all the pro´s cluster in one spot, jostling for that one shot.. the formula.. clean background with none of the stage scaffold, no mic obscuring the face, nice expression or body movement going on.. to me it is the dullest aspect of working in the music industry.. magazine and agencies LOVE formulaic, heroic band shots.. they bore me to death.
i once told a magazine that i was only going to shoot parts of famous muscicians for a while as my work was getting formulaic and besides, everyone knows what the artist looks like.. i was told, with a gasp, that it was my formulaic artist shots which got me so much work.. and i would only spend 15 mins in 8 hours (if i could help it) photographing them.
hmm.. lots of words.. still.. hope there is some help..
photo bands or dj´s because you HAVE to, but photograph everything because you WANT to.. show what it is like to be YOU at a gig, and the rest may follow.
make an association with a local club or venue and photograph emerging artists as well as famous ones – because some of the emerging artists will be famous one day and you may have the earliest photos of them… that is one way of getting somewhere..
i used to live in a block with musicians.. all on benefit.. all dreaming.. skint, (still am).. and then BOOM – the only time i ever saw a couple of them was on commission in random cities or countries.
keep doing it and something will happen.. a photo, a hook up.. the right potion with the right person.. whatever.
the rest is the same as ever – be reliable, deliver on time.. so the job, then party.
or party while doing the job if your constitution can handle it :ø)
yes.
something i always stuck to was not to do work which could destroy my love for photography..
do some work to please the editors, say 20%, and do the rest of the work to please ones-self.
no one needs to pander to an editors wants too much.. i think they use the best of us for our idiosyncratic styles more than our formulaic shots..
after all.. everyone can do the formulaic ones..
i remember one magazine layout artist telling me he loved my performer shots..
but the commissioning editor loved my other work.. saying he could not put his finger on why..
the commissioning editors compliment stuck more, not simply because he used me so often but because he knew supporting my practice mean´t he was supporting much more than simple artists shots without any personal authorship.
HAND MADE BOOKS have to be a great idea in looking for a larger publisher.
a run of 20, heavyweight printed, leather bound and embossed books given as gifts to the right people is a good thing for us all..
my plan in to bind a book in this way and bang it around .. see whats what..
give 10 away..
sell 10 to break even..
call my unkle ´bob´..
tor capa crying..
boo hoo.
d
DAH
will catch you on skype tomo or today if poss..
have a fantastic balcony view to treat you to.
:ø)
and..
3 or so weeks after doing a job for redbull, while awaiting payment infact, i am sent through a contract to sign which would have prevented me doing the work in the first place..
hmm..
here is point 3 –
¨3. You accept that any intellectual property created by you whilst engaging in your
work for Red Bull shall belong entirely to Red Bull and you hereby assign
absolutely to Red Bull with full title guarantee any and all future rights in and to
such intellectual property. ¨
oh dear.
bugger.
want my money, not rights-grab legal nonsense.
grr.
db. OUCH!!
“Here are 2225 blurb books for you to look thru.
Entries in the Photography. Book. Now contest.
Register and vote for your favorite.”
Rant mode on.
Want to be noticed as a photographer? Good luck. There are tens of thousands of good photographers. And they are all publishing books. On their own dime. What does that do to the perceived value of photography? Technology isn’t, in the end, the photographer’s friend. Unless you are a hobbyist.
Rant mode off.
Gracie, the difficulty in capturing these “residual” emotion of place kind of images is objectively looking at the images. I feel a certain energy, a certain emotion standing there that is extremely difficult to put into my images. So they mean something to me when I look at them that simply doesn’t translate for an objective observer. It’s an interesting challenge, though. Don’t give up. Just keep shooting.
http://www.39thframe.com/colorfailure.jpg
Jim,
That exact same “rant” was being made by many luddites in the 1960s as well. The same rant will be made in the distant future. Then as now as it will be in the future… it is unoriginal and ultimately false. Nothing new here.
KATHLEEN FONSECA…
welcome home!!! we all miss your words of wisdom, but certainly understand you needing some time off for whatever reasons you need it…please know that i personally appreciate it whenever you have the time to write…in the meantime, keep your priorities straight and we will wait for you whenever the mood strikes..
JIM..
i suppose there are “tens of thousands” of “good photographers”….ironically, or perhaps predictably, there are still just a few great ones…there more there is of anything, the more the “bar” for true excellence is raised and therefore the inevitable artistic reaction for the “special ones” to rise above the overall level of “good”…i agree that technology is not necessarily a photographer’s friend out right, but should not be considered the “enemy” either…photography is by its very nature technical…however, some use the technology better than others or use it to convey their own way of visual speech…
those with something important to say will say it…
just because there are more opportunities for all of us to create self published books does not mean there will more good books of course…but, it does “level the playing field” and at least allows some photographers the chance to show what they can do…eliminates a whole lot of excuses by photographers who can no longer complain about no chance to display their work….it does mean that the arbiters of photography (editors, publishers, gallerists, mass audience) will have to sift through a whole lot more material, but is this a negative? i do not think so…
by the way, the so called great photographers have always worked on their “own dime” for their very best efforts…
the percentage of photography that you probably have in your book collection was most likely not commissioned straight up…i cannot think of one single truly great book that was done as a commission …commissioned books look like commissioned books , just as commissioned assignments looks like commissioned photography in general (some rare exceptions)…
for sure we all wish there were more commissions..but not for the purpose of creating the very best, but just to earn a living…yes yes, we need to come up with ways to earn a living for photographers, but earning a living is not synonymous with your missive or wish to see work that rises above the mass “good”…
cheers, david
GRACIE…
i would like to read what you have been writing as well as see the photographs…there has been a lot of rampant testosterone here under buzz and we need both you and Kathy back here to help keep the balance…missing you and PLEASE send me some pictures and words to go with them…many thanks..
hugs, david
DAVID BOWEN…
i cannot skype today, but tomorrow??? i am ready to work
cheers, david
Feeling a little Pasnos-y this morning:
NIN: Survivalism live with Saul Williams
Saul Williams – Skin of a Drum
Re. looking through 2000+ blurb book entries
i already did a skim through a couple of weeks ago. if anyone wants to see what i found i did a wee blog post here:
http://benrobertsphotography.wordpress.com/2009/07/16/photography-book-now-entries/
there’s bound to be loads of other good ones in there, but these were some titles that looked like they were worth a browse.
cheers
ben
BEN…
thanks for the book list..at first glance very interesting….i know some of this work , but not all of it and i will surely take a very careful look…..do you plan a self published book?? i am working on a deal with Blurb and perhaps also with a mainstream publisher to help with photographer’s book distribution and also to maybe have our own imprint…anyway, it appears you are a fine editor…
cheers, david
Gracie, Jim…
I’m with you on this, although I find it way more difficult to recognize and capture these residual feelings in portraits or pictures that include people than in pictures of empty spaces. I’m always amazed by people who can SEE these fleeting moments in the expressions of people’s faces, let alone capture them.
In my Nicosia project I tried to capture and communicate my perception of the history of those places along with my own feeling. At least to me it’s easier to handle inanimate subjects this way, since I can spend as much time as I need looking for the “right” picture which could potentially convey my message.
T.
david – here’s my effort:
http://www.blurb.com/books/770434
cheers
ben
– p.s – i would highly reccomend a browse through Joshua Dudley Greer’s book “american histories”. the project is also on his website. it’s a really clever idea, and beautifully executed.
http://jdudleygreer.com/americanhistories.html
Gracie, Jim…
I also find it WAY harder to WRITE text to accompany my pictures than to create the pictures themselves…
BEN…
overall , very nice indeed….we can run an essay here if you choose…might help to sell your book..please let me know….
cheers, david
David, I am not really sure that it is as simple as being that good and having something to say to get recognition.
Photography is such an ubiquitous medium and instrument of expression, I sense many extremely talented people, simply practice it like a disinterested passion, or professionally/exhibitively at a very local level, without a great urge/skill to be discovered or enter the profession or network. Maybe it has borne some frustration for some, and absolutely none for others.
Like I say, I am not sure. So, my question is: do you think that photograph/ers/y deserving of such recognition have all found their ways on top of the medium, or some place where their contribution is acknowledged universally?
Do you think all the Atgets of the medium get discovered, one day, that is, posthumously maybe?
BRIAN…
thanks for your support..we may indeed put you to work!!! i think your essay is ready to go..i will check in the morning….
cheers, david
————————————
Is that still in progress?
Marcin, Just read your post about the new studio. Congrats! Looks like a very interesting space. Wish I could visit.
DAH…
A very nice tribute:
http://fedoraphoto.blogspot.com/2009/08/angelina-rubio.html
Ben, I always liked 174-175 but then I saw 118-119 and fell in love … or was it 170-171 … and would have enjoyed more like 160-161 … but I’m not trying to burst your 138-139 at all … I’m just such a fickle bastard. Good book. How can I get a signed copy?
Ben,
Love it.
MICHAEL…
thanks for the link….
BRIAN…
yes, you are in the works…patience my man, patience….
cheers, david
HERVE…
yes, i do believe that those who should be recognized do get recognized….i have seen so many cases where once a great body of work is seen even by one arbiter of repute, the word spreads so so fast…for example, even our own Patricia whose Falling Into Place , jumped so so fast into high gear in just one day after her work was seen by Richards and Nachtwey…the word spreads quickly , the endorsements move fast, when there is really something to say….i just use her as an example because you saw the whole process of development right here….this all happened right before your eyes…i could give many examples, but this is one that came out of nowhere and is going somewhere and should be quite obvious for you to see…
cheers, david
Ben. I guess its no secret that im not a fan of the style of work you do. Nor you mine really.
That said, You do what you do well. The book is well shot and well laid out. I like the crops and the little colour coded ends are a neat touch. Im not sure who it would be marketed at as a stand alone, but as a showcase of what you are capable of its sure to impress people and im sure will bring you work(sure we touched on this a couple years back). Hope you get the billboard thing.
Jim powers….How do you photograph emotion in a space where it has vacated?? ……..use your imagination.
John, that’s really the problem. My imagination fills in the emotion, but it’s lost on most who view the photos. But, that’s what is interesting to me about the project. To do it without “tricks” or illusion or cliched devices.
Jim;
“My imagination fills in the emotion, but it’s lost on most who view the photos” I think that’s the problem we all come to grips with. What you mentioned is exactly what we face when we photograph nearly every subject.
For example; you do some work in a refugee camp. It affects you deeply, you care, and your emotions are a jumble when you finish. However the people who view the work later on don’t have this emotion born from your experience. So I suppose that’s the mountain we have to try and climb, to transfer your emotion into the work that others see as an 8×12 on the wall.
What you mentioned about empty spaces is true. In our backcountry there are still quite a few tumbledown old houses. They’re mostly used to store a few hay bales in for the cows etc. Now that large round bales are common there is no need for these old houses, so they get knocked down.
Every time I find one I now ask the farmer if I can shoot inside it. When inside it always makes me think how they were once someone’s pride and joy. People lived lives, loved and were probably born or died there. Now they are abandoned and crumbling away.
It’s not like a depression/disaster forced people out; they just fell into disuse and were replaced. A situation rife with metaphors..
Cheers Jim
Jim,
What should a photographer do after reading your rant?
Publish their own book and do what makes them happy regardless of whether they ever make a penny as a photographer OR stop shooting and give up because (as you say) there is no chance of ever being discovered?
In my case…The Journey IS the Destination.
David.
Finally, finally I’m close to getting my website up, busy editing and have a bunch of new work to show you.
I submitted the rodeo image you saw and liked (two versions) for publication on burn.
Did it get lost in the shuffle?
I figure that before I send new work I should find out what happened to the old. :))
Cathy: “The Journey IS the Destination.”
Brilliant.
Cathy, if photography is your hobby, then making money is irrelevant. Publish away. But the more photography “books” there out there, the more it dilutes an already very difficult market. And that has consequences for those who try to make a living with photography. Already awash in images, we’ll soon be awash in photo books.
Jim, If people were lining up to pay me for my photographs, I would gladly take the money :))
In the meantime…what to do? NOT publish a book because I am worried about diluting the market?
No, Cathy. Pandora’s box is already open, I’m afraid. We don’t know what we’ve got until it’s gone the song says.
Publish away.
Just wondering Jim is the box half empty or half full?
Heh-heh!
jim,
i kept on saying i want to shoot the way i write… i write about the light and i cant shoot the way it falls on someone’s hair and how it makes hazel eyes green. i understand about your spaces pregnant with emotions still waiting to be born unto the next beholder. i think for me as i look into your pictures in 39th frame, i would add some human interest and create the scene. that is if you are not abhorrent to that.
say a scarf and a wilted flower on your park bench or a butcher knife on the yellow tire of your red playground. these are poetic prompts to me… scars of past people left as remnants decorating a scene. not necessarily staging as one would think, but always will evoke some strange emotion that may arise from within me that i thought would never have been there unless i connected with the scene.
And jim, dont forget what was at the bottom of pandoras box.
@john gladdy
thanks man, appreciated
@tom hyde – haha, 138-139 is well and truly burst. i’m sure we can sort out a signed copy if you’re really that keen. info (at) benrobertsphotography.com – drop me a line.
@brian frank – cheers dude.
btw – just got back from the private view of the Ian Parry Awards. Lots of socialising of course, but saw Carl’s prints and some other great work.
AndreaC’s comment on EMT: “so many photographers these days are imposing their impressions onto the scene or using techniques that cry out for attention. I don’t mean to say that that is invalid either – although sometimes it seems to be gratuitous.”
I agree. I see a lot of this also… the “look at me and how wonderful I am” techniques.
Kinda tired of it.
When I look at photos, I try to think what the photographer would actually do with the images. What do you do with photos of EMT’s from around the country? Show them in an essay on Burn? There isn’t anything unique about images of EMT’s at work. I don’t see this very successful as a book. Beyond the joy of photography the shooter experienced, which may be all he wants from them, what next? I’m guessing he doesn’t have releases from the victims in the photos, so stock is out. I can’t see much editorial interest over time.
It would be interesting to know if these photos are released. That would at least open some options.
Jim, the market is not “diluted.” The market is tiny and immature. Publishing more, better, and compelling photography books is the only way to develop and expand the market for photography. Not taking any chances is the short route to irrelevance.
Thanks for your answer, David.
not sure about your example, since, to use another example, talents recognized by the best in the profession, like you and your Magnum colleagues, talent enough to be given entrance to the agency for example, will not be given instant full admission.
Which leads us to ascertain that in regards to emerging photographers (like Patricia, and anyone else emerging), the first call to duty, so to speak, is only that (“you’re only as good as your next picture/essay” goes the saying). And that the road to a real body of work that may bring lasting recognition is a long, if not arduous, one.
Jim, have you ever thought to look at all these photos from the eyes of a person not always around photography? Sure there may be hundreds of photos of EMT calls. But what does the whole public know about these people they only meet if they need them. I like the fact that these images were clean, the grotsque, bloddied body of a victim is what has been over done. This story was shot fantasticly from an artistic POV. The reflections of what’s happening just out of frame were caught and framed well in the windshield and equipment on the truck. I like the rushing feel of urgency as they rush a body down the haul. The victim is the one end of the story told about everyday. The EMT is only partally discussed in medical tv shows like Gray’s anatomy and to what reality? To berate someone for shooting something maybe *you’ve* seen a million times is uncalled for. Instead, perhaps you would have some better insight as to how this story could be improved and how the topic could be expanded upon without sounding like you’re the supreme judge and we should all please you. If you want to be pleased in what you see, offer advice that instills growth, not chop off the budding tip of an emerging photographer’s dream. As Cathy said the journey is the destination. No one achieves excellence without having first failed, learned something about themselves from that failure first, adjusting and retrying. Without repeated workouts the muscles don’t grow. The photographer’s eye is their muscle. They will shoot, produce work, attempt to sell that work to pay their bills and live a life they want to live. Truth be told no one will ever become wealthy by shooting photos, but by selling them, one can pay for some necessities. Is the market saturated? I think that’s Relative. Perhaps it’s too saturated from your point of view but to another they see opportunities abound. Because you feel jaded doesn’t mean it gives you a right to be discusted in the will and action being taken by those here. Are you struggling to be noticed by being beligerant? Before burn, I never knew you, after the fire subsides I will never know you. For in my eyes you’ve left nothing but spit.
Jason, how many photo books of pictures of EMT’s do you think the average person (not always around photography) would buy? Perhaps it interesting for a quick look online (like an essay on Burn), but these aren’t images that you want to put on your coffee table and go back to time after time.
In some ways, David does a disservice to emerging photographers. As Herve pointed out, the road to success for the “greats” of photography was long and hard, at a time when the possibility for success was much greater than it is today. I think creating photo books for anything but self satisfaction is far less significant than in the past.
And, Jason, few but close family will remember who we are or what we’ve done in a generation. As much as I admire DAH’s work, only a relatively few people outside of photo fanatics have a clue who he is, for example. And his books that I value so highly, in a generation will go for a buck in some garage sale. Nothing new about that.
Jim…
Even though you have a point or two to make, you’re killing them yourself by generalizing to the extent that you do. After all on a cosmic level none of us matter no matter what we do… if the whole humanity was extinct tomorrow the universe would not even notice…
I understand the use of over-exaggeration in order to better illustrate a point but it can only be effective in a live-face-to-face conversation.
Just responding to Jason, Thodoris. Nothing cosmic about it.
As for this whole photo book thing, I think David is trying to fast track a process that can’t be successfully fast tracked. It’s an interesting experiment, though.
JIM
“but these aren’t images that you want to put on your coffee table and go back to time after time.”
How many EMT offices, rescue squads, hospital waiting rooms do you think there are in the country? Off the top of my head I can count about 50 in the county I live in here in Virginia.
That is the target audience for a good book on EMTs. And it is big enough to warrant doing a book.
Besides, you are missing the point. The project Ryan produced was begun as a workshop project. If you have ever been to a week-long workshop, you would know that you have to come up with a project and execute it. I would say that Ryan did that quite well.
If nothing comes from that work other than the educational exercise of shooting an essay and editing it, it is a mission accomplished.
Jeeze Jim, crawl out of the damn box!
Jim..
Also, how many books about photography (let alone monographs…) does the “average-non-photo-fanatic” own?
The market dilution you refer to is an illusion.
What about the majority of photo-books which come out of the established publishing houses? Are they gems in their context or their esthetic and production quality? Most of them are mass produced products with the main thought behind them being “this will probably sell to that market…”
Out of the 100 hypothetical photo-books I’ll breeze through in any given bookstore only 10 will make it to my list… not to mention how many of them will actually make it to my bookcase…
I too have a beef with self publishing options such as blurb… they’re still way expensive. I mean, for a portfolio or a dummy to show around it’s perfect but for considering it as a viable option in-place of traditional publishing it’s almost a joke. At the end of the day the only one who has a chance in making some money out of this is blurb itself… unless you can sell a book of that quality for $60…
JIM…ALL
i do not think i am trying to “fast track” anything…fast track is just not what i do….i do get up in the morning at 4am to for a picture that i will take at 7am and i will walk 20 miles for a picture situation that will last 5 minutes, but i see this as either hard work or persistence or taking advantage of either an atmospheric or cultural phenomena, but hardly “fast track”…
nor would i be interested in anything other than the most quality oriented publication in print…either an annual magazine or a mentored book…you had better check with the folks i have mentored and see if they would apply the term “fast track” to anything i do…
you are always harping on the lack of opportunities for photographers these days…and actually i quite agree with you…it appears that times are tough…all i am trying to do is to help change that equation….can i do anything?? who knows?? but, i have never ever known that anything i ever did would work…but, i am not the type who tries to talk myself out of something before giving it a try…
publishing books may not be my cup of tea…but in recent years, other than shooting itself, is the activity with which i have been most involved…i have had an “inside track” with three major publishers, so i have seen how it all works…i have always been involved in the production of my stories for both magazines and books and i have seriously studied book production first hand on 3 of my own books and 4 mentored books….i love love love books…my whole reason for being a photographer…i also have a sincere desire to see fine work find its way to print from other photographers…hence BURN in the first place…so maybe , just maybe there is a convergence of energies…
you must know by now, i ONLY believe in organic energy….so, if this is the time, then so be it…if not, then i will go do something else…there is a very exciting world of possibilities in my view….
all of us create our own worlds…i have lived in my own imagination my whole life….works for me….
however, no need and no place in there for “fast track”
cheers, david
BEN R
nice one for the blurb book n good luck with it.
always good to see others interpretation of nightclubs.. somehow they seem quiet places in your photos.. to me at least.
i like the odd formality of the portraits.. all framed high.. kind of makes the characters seem more disposable.. or the fashions at least :ø).. snapped quickly, although they probably were not…
DAVID AH
online all day and can skype..
my hands are tied as far as a burn contribution goes until i get my hard drive fixed.. could be another week till i can afford it..
just moved to bergen.. http://conversesrouges.com/2009/08/05/moonlit-bergen-from-our-balcony/
trying to get some teaching work.. although might be looking at pot washing or bar work for a while :ø/
I’ll see you guys later as I am out of here and back into the sandpit of fun………http://www.etrouko.com.au/im/book25.htm
wwoops http://www.etrouko.com.au/im/book25.htm
I zero experience with publishing, but Jim’s comments on dilution of the photo book market got me to thinking about Nobuyoshi Araki – that guy has released something like 200 different books. Is he diluting the market? Is he creating market share through sheer number of releases? Is he half-assing it just to release another book? Is it OK because he’s famous? Does he want to get his work out there to as many people as possible?
Or does he just love photography and creating books?
Guess I need to Google some Araki interviews…
I think the number is closer to 400 books, now. Never seen one in a book store, though.
Pessimism breeds dillusional depression, optimism creates potenial. Potential is nice but without pairing potential with action you still have nothing. In otherwords Motivation is potential, actually making the effort is action. Now, let’s say there are 200 books on OHH I don’t know… How to photograph a wedding. Well now, if any market has saturation in the number of photo books it’s the how to photography section. But for instance we look at these books. They may all be great in their own right. But to each person that picks them up, they speak differently. Some are more advanced than others, so a simpler book talking about what that little f/ means and what asa is and how they affect your photos, just won’t speak to an advanced user as it would a new beginner.
Look at how many fiction writers there are. Will anyone ever read all the smut novels produced? Mystery? No probably not but does that stop novelists and would be writers? Perhaps some share your way of thinking. If there are a 100 photo books on EMTs I’m sure the medics feel honored for the attention. As for readership, it’s easier to read a photo than words. No translation needed. This means wider distibution is available due to the common langugage. Distribution to fire depts, emt offices, doctor offices, hospitol waiting rooms and the ER room. Think about that! A decent hospitol have how many waiting areas ? If 1% of the hospitols bought a book for each of these areas… That’s still a big number of books sold.
So my point is this. Go buy yourself the Photographer’s Market book. It’s published yearly by Reader’s Digest. It’s a list of possibilities. They list hundreds of trade magazines, books, gallaries, etc and how to contact them all. A smart photographer with the right set of skills can take that one step further by self publishing books for those trade markets. Then the obstical is distribution. But I’m sure you already know there are places and magazines for that too.
Only things in waiting rooms around here are old copies of Nat Geo and Sports Afield that folks have given away to get them out of their living room.
Jim Powers wrote,
” My imagination……….”
The funniest phrase written, to date, on Burn.
“Only things in waiting rooms around here are old copies of Nat Geo and Sports Afield that folks have given away to get them out of their living room.”
Perfect! the market is WIDE OPEN.
One more note – DAH is granting us all access to his life time of experience and an inner look of what it means to be one of the greats. He’s handing us all the skills and tools to make something of ourselves. A chance to reach him. But not everyone will take that opportunity.
Anytime I mention or someone around me says I do photography someone inevitalbly asks if I know of Ansel Adams. He’s not only remembered by family and friends, but by all who his photography touched.
Since were on to generalizations, a photographer is an artist as was Mozart. I think pretty much a household name. I suppose to achieve his level of excellence to be remembered and reveared hundreds of years after death, we should all give up and stop taking photos because were all too great for any one of us to get noticed. Right Jim?
Or perhaps it’s something bigger. I’m sure many more people know the name Magnum over the individuals who make it up. Capa, Bresson are big among photo enthusiests and students. But what about people outside that relm. Perhaps becoming great is bigger than any one individual can handle. So the entity they work under spreads that burden out over all it’s members and out from that large conglomeration of truely great artists, a few, the top 1% of them will emerge and be remembered. It’s life and it gives us all a goal. Nothing is too great in numbers. And out of the numbers a leader must prevail.
Pete Marovich
August 5, 2009 at 11:41 am
“Only things in waiting rooms around here are old copies of Nat Geo and Sports Afield that folks have given away to get them out of their living room.”
“Perfect! the market is WIDE OPEN.”
I think That rivals for the funniest thing ever said on Burn.
David,
I notice on the Magnum site that their ‘Blog’ is gone.
Was it deemed unsuccessful or just too much trouble to maintain ?
Also, on the subject of book publishing and Magnum.
Content in the Magnum store seems to be increasing at a pretty good pace.
Without divulging details, would book sales be contributing revenue to Magnum in a way that
might one day rival image licensing?
i.e., is there evidence to illustrate that book sales are generating more revenue than in
the past and that image licensing is in decline (like it is in many agencies,editorial and stock)
JUSTIN…
i think (from all the interviews) that Araki just is very prolific, loves shooting, and his “art” is in just publishing everything he does…same as Martin Parr…
MTOMALTY…
the Magnum blog is gone just because it did not get much interest and few M photogs are interested in blogging…in addition, as i wrote earlier, we are going to have a whole new website and interactive channel system involving several Magnum photographers who will drive their own channels…Burn will be one of them…
book sales have always been good at Magnum, but certainly come nowhere close to image licensing in terms of overall sales figures…even profitable popular books are not really revenue producers compared to all of the other businesses that all photographers do…books have secondary monetary value in the sense that they are obviously the best “bench mark” for any photographer…this leads to higher profile, prestigious shows, better collector print prices and better commissions in general…but nobody i know does a book for the money…
most importantly , a book is who you ARE….your PLACE at the table…..we all do books for the love of doing books…other sales just help us to do books books and more books…
i remember once early in my career, a well known photographer telling me when i was doing a lot of assignments, but had no book, that life is way way different after you publish a book…so true, so true….it is very very difficult, if not impossible, to have any kind of peer identity if you do not have a good book on the shelf….i do know some very very fine known assignment photographers who have no book…sad, in my opinion….again, just my opinion….
cheers, david
David,
Very interested to see how the Channel system will manifest itself.
Thanks for the personal insights into books and book publishing.
Divided Soul is, easily, in my top 5 ‘go to’ books.
Best,
Mark
JASON…
you are a young man and a wise man…..
cheers, david
Thank you sir. :)
Jason, sometimes I think being a famous photographer can skew your perspective about what is achievable. But time will tell.
Just a quick bookmark for students and working PJ’s (never know what may happen).
http://www.vjworkshops.org/
I just attended this Visual Journalism workshop at Brooks Institute in California. It’ll be held every year from now on as a 4-day workshop to get students and recently laid-off pros some experience in multimedia and video.
Had a blast, met a bunch of funny and talented people, both shooters and editors… mark it for next year.
Jared – I’m glad your experience with Brooks was a positive one. I briefly played with the idea of going to their school and after more research on reviews by past students, it’s not at all like it once was. The school is a for profit school owned by a larger company based out of Chicago. The school and company has come under federal investigation and nearly had its accreditation revoked due to promises made during the enrollment process not being fulfilled. They charge and enormous tuition because of the old reputation the school was built on. I decided not to proceed further after I had spoken to someone in the enrollment dept and he had told me i was accepted before I had even officially applied. I’m sure the experience was very enlightening and worth the 4 days. But I would be very cautious before ever considering their school. If you’re looking for a fine schools for PJ I would highly recommend the University of Missouri – with whom DAH is quite familiar, Ohio University in Athens OH, Syracuse University, and Western Kentucky. Probably in that order. I think one of the best measures I have seen yet for determining whether a school is worth attending is to see how the students compete.
http://www.cpoy.org
Now this is not to say there aren’t some individuals going to non-journalism focused schools out there who are trying to make a name for them selves while in college. For instance, myself. I’ll be submitting for a second time in CPOY this fall. My teachers have never heard of it before. no big surprise since my school highly focused in art. They do participate in the Photographer’s Forum, Addy awards, and other competitions of the like. For my journalism experience in college I’ve participated in the Best of The Midwest competition with the Associated Collegiate Press – and I’ve taken home a third place award from there for a photo I thought wasn’t all that great and I had actually deleted it off of my flash drive – since my flash drive was the only thing I had with me at the time that had any of my work on it, I ended up purchasing and downloading some software to salvage my deleted / erased files. I think it was worth the money spent on the software. and the experience.
Jared,
And you had to stand back in the already super-wide photo so we can’t see the color of your shoes?
Thanks for sharing …
Jason-
Yeah. Brooks is too rich for my blood. Can’t imagine coming spending that kind of money for a photography degree. I go the community college route, $20 bucks a credit, less equipment, just as challenging (if you make it so).
There were some team leaders and speakers from the very institutions you listed. At the end of the day it’s the people, not the institution that make these things. And the people were top-notch.
Oh – and it was tuition free, just had to pay for travel and lodging. Can’t really beat that, hope it stays that way. Allows a broke college student to participate, that’s pretty cool. They accepted 25 students this year, 75 recently laid-off pros…
Haik –
They were converses negros. :)
Good to see new blood over there… be back soon.
The Unbearable Optimism of Jim Powers:
-Jason, sometimes I think being a famous photographer can skew your perspective about what is achievable. But time will tell.
-Cathy, if photography is your hobby, then making money is irrelevant. Publish away. But the more photography “books” there out there, the more it dilutes an already very difficult market. And that has consequences for those who try to make a living with photography. Already awash in images, we’ll soon be awash in photo books.
-No, Cathy. Pandora’s box is already open, I’m afraid. We don’t know what we’ve got until it’s gone the song says.
-When I look at photos, I try to think what the photographer would actually do with the images. What do you do with photos of EMT’s from around the country? Show them in an essay on Burn? There isn’t anything unique about images of EMT’s at work. I don’t see this very successful as a book. Beyond the joy of photography the shooter experienced, which may be all he wants from them, what next? I’m guessing he doesn’t have releases from the victims in the photos, so stock is out. I can’t see much editorial interest over time.
Jason, how many photo books of pictures of EMT’s do you think the average person (not always around photography) would buy? Perhaps it interesting for a quick look online (like an essay on Burn), but these aren’t images that you want to put on your coffee table and go back to time after time.
-In some ways, David does a disservice to emerging photographers. As Herve pointed out, the road to success for the “greats” of photography was long and hard, at a time when the possibility for success was much greater than it is today. I think creating photo books for anything but self satisfaction is far less significant than in the past.
-And, Jason, few but close family will remember who we are or what we’ve done in a generation. As much as I admire DAH’s work, only a relatively few people outside of photo fanatics have a clue who he is, for example. And his books that I value so highly, in a generation will go for a buck in some garage sale. Nothing new about that.
-As for this whole photo book thing, I think David is trying to fast track a process that can’t be successfully fast tracked.
-Let us all celebrate fuzzy images.
-Want to be noticed as a photographer? Good luck. There are tens of thousands of good photographers. And they are all publishing books. On their own dime. What does that do to the perceived value of photography? Technology isn’t, in the end, the photographer’s friend. Unless you are a hobbyist.
-An often told story. Good technically, but ambulance chasing is simply too overdone. If you are going to do it, go for emotion. This seems too detached and unemotional.
I’ve shot a lot of these photos over the years as a PJ. But it’s hard to convey the experience of being there in a photo. The screams of the injured, the flashing lights at midnight from a dozen police cars and ambulances. Too cliche. Too clean.
-Nothing new here. Wish you had shot it in color. It’s Haiti!
-A failed essay. Without the artists statement, I would have no clue what this was about.
-A lot of poor quality photos here. Fuzzy, too much contrast. You covered the event. Would have been good PJ stuff but the poor quality of the photos got in my way.
-Some interesting photographs here. But it does look like you had a bunch of photos and came up with a theme to try and tie them together into an essay. And I don’t think you succeeded.
And please, lose the “music” that plays along with the essay. It is annoying, rather than enhancing the “drama” of the essay (which I guess is what you wanted it to do).
-I don’t get it. Weird. What is the point?
-I just don’t see anything special here. I like the idea of portraits, but they don’t seem particularly well composed nor do they seem to say much. More like snapshots. I can’t see much beyond the surface of the subjects.
-The problem with photos like this is that whether they were set up or a happy accident, they still look set up. Could work in an ad for a P&S digital camera, though.
-This is just strange. Cows at night. Blown out with flash. Standing behind trees. Too weird for me.
-Art and fiction. Isn’t reality interesting enough with enough real heroes? I just don’t understand the point of this project. I assume it’s intended as Fine Art, but just doesn’t work for me in that context, either. The technique is fine, the content is vacuous.
-I guess you have to be young and hip. Fine as art, though. The jarring OOF areas bother me, but guess it fits the mood. It looks more posed than romantic to me, but I’m not young and hip.
-Why?
-Lacking special distinction, rank, or status; commonly encountered. Lacking exceptional quality or ability. Average. Just another stick a camera in someone’s face photo. I think most people understand what average means. Why spend 300 words making cool references to art history, camera technique or photoshop techniques when one word will do. And why waste all these words and take the thread off topic just to castigate someone for only posting two words? Just ignore people who blow off photos with two words! Who cares what they think? Illiterate buffoons that they are.
Selah.
Now THAT is funny!
Michael,
That list of yours goes into the treasure of BURN. Along with the list of books and philosophers.
Jim Powers said: “Why? – don’t I love this one ? :). As descriptive as it can be from a psychological point of view. Yes, why?
Cheers you all.
Michael, you have way too much time on your hands.
Michael – That took a lot of determination to want to spend the time digging up each quote like that.. Wow.. and when you put them together, and you realize that is all it amounts to – there are no spaces between filled with any positive energy.. it’s all very negative. JIM! Lighten up! the world isn’t all doom and gloom!!! The people here would like to help you find the light again. To find the reason to be a photographer. You seem like you’ve been doing to assignment stuff for too long. You’ve burned out and are just tired of it all… You need to find something to revitalize your love of this craft or get out of it before you become too negative and the angry old man nobody likes…
Try this – Spend a day just shooting the fun “pretty pictures” of flowers, bugs, cars and landscapes… go back to the roots. Go back to your childhood. Make this fun for you again. Make this your passion again.
Jim
“Michael, you have way too much time on your hands.”
Nice one. What you up to? Reading?
It would be wrong to suggest I struggled in any way to compile that list. As I’m sure you can imagine, it was easy and took no time at all. There are, of course, many more gems out there–also easy to find–but MAN! you have to stop at some point… wanna blow your brains out! ;^}
It’s all good fun anyway… no offense Jim!
Jason, I only shoot upbeat stuff these days. I love photography. I shoot everyday. :)
I’m sorry, fellas, but I’m finding your digs at Jim quite tiresome. Anyone who responded to Erica’s story about breaking her favorite lens by saying, “Hey, I’ve got one I’m not using.” and then sending it to her ASAP is not a negative person. I can’t help but think we’ve got lots of fellas here with daddy issues…
Patricia
Jim – that’s great to hear. Keep it positive for your sake.
Daddy Issues?
Patricia –
Respectfully, this has nothing to do with daddy issues. I’ve been unfortunate enough to know quite a few people who would give the shirts off their back if the chips were down, yet in every other situation they acted negatively and brought down the overall tenor and vibe of the relationship. The one didn’t outweigh the other. It’s a gray area, not black and white, he’s not the devil — just not all that pleasant to (virtually) be around daily.
Surely, choosing not to have these people in your life is a decision you can make without having psychological issues. There are others out there with the same selflessness, without the negative aspects.
OK, I did this the other day and I hope DAH read my piece,
but I’m changing the subject.
—DAH, I’ve been thinking about BURN and how it can
sustain itself. I hope these thoughts are helpful—
Did the alternative weekly really have it right all along?
Let’s see the Village Voice comes to mind.
They have been operating on the same model as on-line
content for decades. Distribute for free, let the advertisers
carry the load. Humm seems like I’ve seen that somewhere
recently. Slate Magazine, Huffington Post, The Limbaugh
Letter(grrrr…), you name it. Give’em content and folks will
read.
Readers are looking for a break from the immediate. Some-
body has to make some sense out of the hourly barrage of
the incomplete snippets of information they receive.
The Christian Science Monitor has moved to a weekly digest.
That is not so different from what has been going on in the
“Alt Pubs” for years. Expanding on what you’ve been seeing
and how it may affect you
Take a look at the Association of Alternative Weeklies . They
have some pretty impressive numbers for being giveaways
for the most part.
Another successful model can be seen with a small but important
corner of the radio world. The shinning example is WDVX( http://wdvx.com ) in
Knoxville, TN. An Americana-Roots music station that operates
on the public radio model. No advertisers but a strong and faithful
group of sponsors and listeners who donate. The internet has made
this possible.
I’m not quite sure what all of this adds up to, but it should be a clear
message that what BURN wants to accomplish already has bits and
pieces of success in conveying great content out there that you can
take a look at to help move BURN forward.
Patricia, what if he were using it often? Would he still have lent it out? Giving because you have no need for it your self is no big feat. To give something up when you could be using it because someone else appears to need it more, means more. Giving up something you need to live and survive on for the sake of granting another person a chance, carries the greatest weight and is never forgotten.
First of I want to congratulate Marcin regarding the studio/gallery space. Very interesting and brave move.
Secondly I think it’s kind of funny how much time and energy many spends on Jim. I don’t agree with him most of the time, but usually online you never, never, ever come to some sort of conclusion regarding anything with anyone, especially if you totally disagree from the start. Sometimes it’s better to ignore and go on. That said, of course the discussion is important, but doing it online is difficult..
I think the time and energy is important to deal with an issue affecting us all. Including Jim. Do you think he like to be told his opinion is not important or worth hearing? I think Jim could use some positive attention as could everyone here. For an emerging photographer to hear negative comments puts that person in a place that makes them feel like they’re not worth anything. It also affects the perception of Burn and David’s attempts. If someone leaves upset because someone is always distastefully tearing their work down, what does that say about all of us? It’s been said before, burn is a family. Family supports eachother. Family picks on eachother, Family sticks together.
Ben, good work on the Blurb book. Somehow, the portraits of people fixing the camera in front of the big wall expanse, leitmotiv like (here’s Wagner again!!!) came as an anti-climax to the energy dispelled by the other images and people acting up. Not sure it works as a counterpoint to the night club energies. Thumbs up, anyway. You will have my vote.
Journey is the destination…
——————————-
…. Hummmm…… This one reminds me of the oft-said “I don’t do it for the money…”. Some things are better said at the outset of the journey than the onset (1), when the deed is truly achieved. Especially since no one will admit to the contrary (that the journey is unimportant).
IMO.
JASON,
If an emerging photographer can’t accept a negative comment they should probably go do something else.
I just think it’s better sometimes to let Jim have his opinion and not answer to it. I mean most of the time we probably already know what he’ll think about a photograph before he has written anything.
Cheers
i would not have any of the emt books near a waiting room… that is if i were a hospital ceo i wouldnt have any of these books along these lines be near anything that would remind clients of illness. i would have food network going on the tvs, oprah magazine, popular photography, people with jon and kate on the covers to ‘entertain’ my clients.
i myself do not want to be reminded of illness, sickness, accidents, blood, war, hunger. i want to see photos that are happy, affluent, close to ridiculous. so does this mean i need to get a life or i need to see a shrink?
i dont even want to get into why anyone says what he wants to say. i agree about the negativity though – altruism gone awry it seems. to each his own… but the world is round, and it goes round and round inspite of each and everyone of us falling off its face when our time comes.
humanity is resilient and looks for things to see and feel to get itself by the emotions it feels at the moment. pay it forward if you can. but i dont want to have to explain why i am the way i am if i felt generous or kind. we all have our moments.
Martin…
I’m in general agreement with you. Ignore, that is. However, every once in a while isn’t a little mockery healthy? Fun? And your comment about being able to take negative comments is just as true for Jim… even if they are all his comments! ;^}
I missed the 5000 comment…
Buzz is in the “fast-track” ,light speed ,many G forces…
What have I missed???
WELCOME BACK MRS. KATHLEEN FONSECA, Street Fighter,Sword Tongue !!!Your biggest fun!!!
I am the happiest Civilian cause I have so many people that I LOVE…
and I LOVE YOU ALLLLLL
missed u much KATIE,please, be around, cause My Gracie is “dancing” with the wolves:)))
How is the Hard drive, DAVIDB ?…kisses to Beate and Tor capa !!!
MICHAELK…you can write …well done!!!
POMARA…”move the BURN forward”…what are you cooking???
MARCIN…can we exchange studios?…I am not that far!!!…Congratulations!!!
OUR PATRICIA…thank you for …YES, IMO…there is no “negative” person.
JARED…thanks for the bookmark
JASON…thank you too…THE FAMILY sticks together…and WHAT A FAMILY WE ARE:)))???
THODORIS…I am still traveling? How is Greece? Shall I return? maybe the journey is what I am looking for????
NOW, where is my music?is the BURN DJ back from the sea?
Where is BOBB and the 800 words writing…I miss that?
Where is REIMAR and our beautiful mill?
Where is LASSAL, the bloody lady?
Where is MIKER and the stories?
Where is MR.SIDNEYA?
Where is ABELE ?
Where is AUDREY with my family?
Where is ANDREWB …hope life is good?
LOVE YOU BURNIANS,all of youuuuuuuu…I am drinking cold beer and I am eating Tacos…
WHAT NOT TO LOVE…VIVA my big photoFAMILIA…
I will be back
a quick shooting report for anyone who is considering but hasn’t yet done a long term piece that you pour yourself into…a note to say to you that I can’t help but feel that serendipitous moments come like gifts after you lay the groundwork and do the work…or possibly they come no matter what, but they are best received and grasped when you have well prepared…
Erica…
I often feel that way about the river. Thanks for the report!
http://conversesrouges.com/
smile… enjoy…!
Psychoanalyzing posters on Internet forums is a complete waste of time. Whatever motive or emotion you give to words on a screen, which are simply collections of pixels, are more a reflection of your own feelings than those of the poster.
Jim.
i think i agree on this one…:)
Negative feedback Isn’t helpful feedback. I’m saying it’s important to find a way to express the feedback in a helpful way. Just saying “It’s crap.” isn’t telling the author anyway he could improve. If all you can think of is “It’s crap” then so be it. It’s merely an opinion and can be ignored. The person dishing out that sort of feedback is no longer a viable, reliable source of feedback for that author. Simple feedback without substance is elementary and useless. Someone who is educated and has been a pro for ant length of time should be able to come up with something better, more original.
Gosh, why am I not surprised that you fellas didn’t like my earlier comment??? If the shoe doesn’t fit, don’t wear it. But if it really gets your goat, maybe it’s worth considering. To my way of thinking what goes on here between Jim and so many of you guys is less about photography than about your other “stuff.” But if you want to keep playing your games, go ahead. Just don’t be surprised when you look around and see that you’re the only players left on the field. Already most of the women have gone either silent or to some less contentious online gathering place. And that’s a shame.
Patricia
Jason …:)))
“negative” feedback as you described is still feedback…
Jim js not playing a game… just expressing opinions!!!
We “need” to at least accept his individuality…
imagine if we all agree with all….then, no more wars…
no middle eastern conflict….
it is what it is…
at all times…
:)
big hug y’all
Pat…
love you…
please dont get overprotective of our black sheep here…
:))))
I love and respect Jim…
he has “balls” to be in a forum completely… unnsupportive … to say at least…
:))))))))))
but i think …he handles well…. very well…
im impressed…
but he is “real”… although still a “character” just like the REST of us…
All, plz dont forget:
This is a blog… imagine a huge room with beer pouring and good music in the speakers….
:))))))))))))
All keep on the cool talks about “whatever u like”…
hugeeeeee hug!!!
jim,
can you kindly comment on my second to the last post? i think it was last night.
that is if youve got the time.
thanks
Patricia…
I’m here…
erica,
too….
and many others…..
it is a bit out of balance…
oh yes….
but we’re here….
I believe that….
silent…
or
loud…
or
reading the photographs…
or
writing
the poetry…
we’re here…
and
everywhere…
xox
***
…in other words i agree with Patricia….
I totally “support” JIM… ( he is an Icon by now..:)..
and “any jim”… that feels that their opinion should be expressed…
… but i also have to admit and accept the sense of humor in all of those responses that he intigues…
its a fun circle and i…
loves it..
peace
Patricia —
I don’t particularly like your comment because it has no basis in reality and panders to some halfway thought-out psuedo-psychoanalysis.
Wait, does this mean I have mommy issues, too. ;)
Jareeeeeeeeeeed!…
whats up?
just leaving El Taurino…
i know, im killing myself…
Malaka!
What no call? Could of used a delicious asada… Haik — let’s make it happen…. problems of the world need solving.
Patricia, I am here, just silent… I like your news pictures.
Civil, oui, I am with dad, mom and the cats, we love you and kiss you!
David and all, will you be at Visa pour l’Image?
all the best, audrey
Where’s the music panos, you’re slipping. Still an hour and six minutes on the clock.
Heartless Bastards to start it off —
@ AUDREY (and all)
Audrey I’ve just read your post, this morning, and YES I’ll be in Perpignan next month, hope C U and many others Burnians!
A+ Patricio
Patricio, I’m happy to meet you soon!
It still amazes me that Jim gets people going, even though his take on so much work shown and talked about here is often the same, making the responses to it, well… As predictable too. How long has this been going on?
Just let him post his one liners, it’s hs right, and stop engaging him, since he never changes his mind (NEVER!). If that is nad, You are only making it worse, of your own fault, not his.
Patricia, it would be nice, sure, but I do not think it matters if women post less, we are talking about a virtual thing here, and after all, someone like Erica shows that one can be a woman and still contribute some valuable information, thoughts and links without being at all in “harm’s way”.
IMO, women post less because they post less. No big fuss. We know they are out there, in real life, being concrete, not virtual.
BTW, on what you wrote last week, a detail: David also didn’t like to hear what Lisa had to say, relative to Magnum’s gender unequities. It’s actually after he answered her that she stopped writing here.
CIVILIAN MASS CARER
http://conversesrouges.com/2009/08/05/the-imperminance-of-all-and-everything-can-be-a-bind/
off to the workshop now to see if they can resuscitate..
otherwise i’ll be hibernating and scanning for the rest of my natural life, and perhaps well into the afterlife..
goddam technology.. AND they said i could spread jam onto and run over my music cd’s without them breaking..
THEY WERE WRONG>> wrong, i tell you.
x
jared,panos
i always say next week, next week and it becomes a problem of the world. f**k, lets have that torta next week and solve the damn problem.
david bowen – good luck – they ll recover it.
Just a few thoughts on book publishing
During my time studying photography I was part of a circle of 5 students who initiated two photo projects and we published two books “24 Stunden Bielefeld” in 2000 and “Neuland Europa” in 2002. Our ambition was not to make any profit, but to gain experiences and create something that would last.
A book is something final, something fixed. Unlike many other forms of presentation it is something that stays. The newspaper is old the next day, exhibtions end after some time and mulimedia presentations or web pages are rather fugitive and get off the net after a while or hard drives crash ;-)
A book is an object of art and design.
A book is like a good print, something precious.
A book is the final step in a long process, which usually lasts more than a year. So you better think carefully if your essay or work is truly finished or if there might be another chapter.
A book is an expression saying: This is what I have done, what I have photographed, what I have written about a certain subject or issue, this is my statement, this is my take.
A book is not to make monetary profit. I like to stress and underline David’s words about the real value of book publishing and the “bench mark”.
Publishing a book is certainly a big effort, but it is all doable and from my experience it is helpful to have like-minded people for support, exchange of ideas and discussion. In retrospect we argued a lot, but also always came to a consensus.
Okay, now I have to get my new Kaercher machine going and see what the dirt blaster can do ;-)
Sun is up!
Reimar
“Our ambition was not to make any profit, but to gain experiences and create something that would last.”
Which is fine if you can afford to do major projects and publish books without making any money. In the real world, most of us like to eat and have a roof over our heads. Maybe young photographers have trust funds these days.
Reimer…
Sounds like you and your fellow students created something pretty special. An exercise that pushed your creative and emotional limits. There’s nothing like taking what little you have and putting it into something, heart and soul, irregardless of the financial costs, to express yourself, test yourself, learn, experience… etc. Good on you!
@Herve; «someone like Erica shows that one can be a woman and still contribute some valuable information»
hahahahahaha! What a surprise, I am almost shocked ;-)
Patricia, that is so nice you are going to Perpignan! Also look forward to say hello to Audrey and all of you that are going to there. Very soon..!
Audrey, I’ve been missing you! Thanks for speaking up. And thanks also to Gracie, Erica, Wendy, Cathy and Diana for helping to bring women’s voices and perspectives to Buzz. Kathleen, it was great to hear your voice again even briefly but I sure wish you’d stick around. Ciara, I understand your reluctance to post here but the more of us who are not into bickering, the better our dialogues will be.
Where is Gina, Lassal, Lee, Katia, Kyunghee, Marina, Anna Maria, Nasha, Michelle, Kerry, Laura, Lisa, Rosemary, Kim, Carrie, Ana, Sofia, Valery, Anne H, Katharina, Anna B, Lara and all the women who used to share their thoughts and feelings with us in the recent and distant past? Some of you still post comments under the essays/selected photos but we need you here in the dialogue section as well. And women who read but don’t post, please join the discussion. As Wendy said, Buzz has gotten out of balance. Let’s do what we can to set things to rights again.
Patricia
Oops!
Typo: Reimer
Correct: Reimar.
Sorry.
Andrea, I was writing my comment while you were posting yours. So glad to hear your voice here on Buzz! I had originally hoped to make it to Perpignan but it never worked out. Alas, it is not the most wheelchair accessible place in the world…
Patricia
i dont post to bring balance into a forum.
i dont post and hope my contribution matters to one.
i dont post because i am a woman.
i post because i care about pictures, how they are made, and how they make me feel.
i post because i want to.
Gracie,
Im glad you posted that.
Well said, Gracie. Just keep posting ;=)
Patricia
Oh no Patricia, that´s a pitty! But I understand the difficulties.
Well, I will post more.. I will. If you think the discussion is out of relevance, you have to take it back. I know. It is just so much easier to move your focus to something else..
Everyone has to find her/his way of surviving as photographers. As professionals (of course that is still possible) or as a hobby. I Personally would not be satisfy if no one would buy my pictures, because I want to create pictures and stories that have some importance and value to others than my self. I get a lot of boring stupid assignments, but they can have a value as well. I like to work, I always meet at least one interesting person, or get a new idea. Doing these assignments also pay my bills and give me goodwill among the magazine/newspaper people, and they will buy the MY idea next time. The difficult thing is to balance between assignments and personal projects/ideas. Personally againg, I would not work on a project or a book that I know no one was interested in, then the project is not good enough, in my eyes. Of course, there are always exceptions. And things can happen after you are dead…!
These are some thoughts to the discussion on book publishing, project works/paid work. I would say everything is possible. Just looking at the map right now, since I have seven days without plans, WHERE to go shooting??!!
“Where is Gina, Lassal, Lee, Katia, Kyunghee, Marina, Anna Maria, Nasha, Michelle, Kerry, Laura, Lisa, Rosemary, Kim, Carrie, Ana, Sofia, Valery, Anne H, Katharina, Anna B, Lara and all the women who used to share their thoughts and feelings with us in the recent and distant past?”
If they are smart, they are out shooting and creating a body of work instead of sitting in front of a computer bickering and creating negative energy… which reminds me… gotta go shoot.
Who’s bickering? Anyone bickering go to your naughty chair.
Herve, your wording WAS funny, but I think I understand..
Audrey:
nouvelles photos = new photos
photos de nouvelles / de journal = news photos
xoxoxo
Patricia: Anna Maria is at breakfast, just saw her :))))
ALL:
!!Oct 9, $23..In a rare New York City appearance, he will discuss with curators Jeff L. Rosenheim and Sarah Greenough his career in photography and film and the conception, execution, and response to his ground-breaking book of photographs, The Americans, which is celebrating its fiftieth anniversary.
Get your tix now, I’m sure this will sell out early..http://www.metmuseum.org/tickets/calendar/view.asp?id=2894
This will be a great one for scribbling too…
Looking In: Robert Frank’s The Americans
September 22, 2009–January 3, 2010 at the Met in NYC
The exhibition will feature all 83 photographs published in The Americans and will be the first time that this body of work is presented to a New York audience. In addition, the exhibition will include a full set of contact sheets that Frank used to create the book; earlier photographs made in Europe, Peru, and New York; a short film by the artist on his life; and his later re-use of iconic images from the series.
he = Robert Frank
JIM…ALL
as i continue to write to your drumbeat of “photographers cannot make money with books”, i will repeat that you are absolutely correct…
generally speaking, photographers have never made money with books…ironically perhaps, at least not from the best books….all of the great books are self-financed one way or another and not from photographers with trust funds…photographers do whatever they have to do to publish a fine book..i.e. do a commercial ad shoot to help pay for the book, do magazine assignments to help pay for the book, sell stock to help pay for the book, sell prints to help pay for the book, be a bartender to help pay for the book..whatever it takes..simple….this is the equation Jim…that is for those who have chosen freelancing over a staff position…i know , i know , this does not work for everyone..but, since when is photography as a profession or even as a serious avocation for everyone?? yes, everyone can use photography to enrich their lives, but only a very few will be able to earn their living and/or make a mark…it has always been thus so…
interesting enough, to publish a book does not require that a photographer be earning their living as a photographer at all…book publishing must be the most egalitarian medium of all, only requiring very fine work however obtained…
ANDREA…
yes, you have it right….and for this reason your professionalism is getting better and better and this will also lead to you doing a really fine book in the very near future…
GRACIE…
all good reasons …thanks
PATRICIA…
i do know the whereabouts of some of the women mentioned..mostly , i think we are just looking at summertime….specifically august…only Americans are working in august or near their computers much…again, as i look through that list i know that 75% of those women are quite simply on vacation with their families…but, yes yes, we want them back soonest!!
cheers, david
and
i
adore
your
posts
gracie…..
x0x
and I post
cause I LOVE YOU…
BURNIANS “shoot your eyes out”
WHAT NOT TO LOVE???
What are you shooting today? self-portraits???
JIM..JASON
you wrote Jim:
“Jason, sometimes I think being a famous photographer can skew your perspective about what is achievable. But time will tell.”
gotta love you Jim for just being so purely cynical…you are who you are, no BS, and i always appreciate honesty….personally i could not live for 5 minutes being that cynical, but you have the right to speak as much as anyone else and you do stimulate some good discussions even if some are writing just to disprove or rebuke your philosophy….as do i now!!
all i can say to Jason and to you is this…..
having a “skewed perspective about what is achievable” is EXACTLY what has brought me to a point in life where i must say i am quite happy in that THINKING something was possible , made it possible..
over analyzing if something was possible would have led to no action, resulting in nothing…have i done everything right?? hell no…but , did i play it the way i saw it?? hell, yes…
it is not about achievement anyway…i hate to sound cliche, but it really is the honesty and integrity of the effort that counts…manifest this effort and just take whatever so called “achievement” comes…nobody was born “famous” ( using your word Jim, not mine)..
purity of effort is its own reward…i.e..my two biggest projects right now, not only earn me no money, but cost me money : (a) trying to do my family book project (b) trying to make something worthwhile out of Burn…
why would i spend so much time doing two things which earn me no living?? just for one reason..they both FEEL RIGHT…nothing complex about that…just feel like what i should be doing NOW….maybe not a year from now, but now ….
Jason, i would never give you false hope or try to oversell a lifestyle or a path to creativity…but, i can only speak from my firsthand experience and the experiences of the fine photographers with whom i have come to know…i would also be totally negligent as a mentor if i did not tell you what i believe to be true…sure, the road for you will be different than the road for me, just as i could not do things the way the previous generation was able to work and create….you and your generation will have to invent something else…we did too…that is just the way life is..but, certain tenants of creativity will always be true…
Jason, it will take 110% of your energy to live your dream….but, you will reap rewards beyond your dreams….rewards that money cannot buy…you will suffer..you will breathe rare air….go for it…
cheers, david
RE: Famous photographers —
There are only four living famous photographers — Steve McCurry, but no one knows his name, just his one big picture; James Nachtwey because there was a movie about him and war is, unfortunately, a hot topic; Annie Leibovitz because she shoots rock stars and actors and everyone knows that picture of naked John on top of Yoko; and Sebastiao Salgado because he is a marketing genius and the press adore him.
Everyone else we here on Burn think of as “famous” has name recognition only among a few thousand people around the world — and a third of them read this website.
Photography as a share of book publishing, museum/gallery space, magazines, and websites is TINY. Photographers who make money shoot celebrities and food.
All of the photography books that we love and admire sold at most a few thousand copies, and nearly all of them lost money. Aperture’s books do not pay for themselves — Aperture is a foundation whose ventures are funded by private and corporate donations. Check the credits for Salgado’s “Migrations” — Kodak paid for that (very expensive) book.
The idea that “successful” photographers make money through their photos or that “famous” photographers somehow have an easier time than the rest of us just doesn’t hold water. There are 10,000 better ways to make money than by shooting photos, and 9,999 of them are infinitely easier.
And the photographers who do make money, you’ve never heard of them. No one knows their names because they shoot advertising and corporate stuff made to order.
We have done so much, for so long, with so little, we are now qualified to do anything with nothing.
Mother Teresa
Nearly every man who develops an idea works it up to the point where it looks impossible, and then he gets discouraged. That’s not the place to become discouraged.
Thomas A. Edison
What we can or cannot do, what we consider possible or impossible, is rarely a function of our true capability. It is more likely a function of our beliefs about who we are.
Tony Robbins
Start by doing what’s necessary; then do what’s possible; and suddenly you are doing the impossible.
Francis of Assisi
We would accomplish many more things if we did not think of them as impossible.
Vince Lombardi
It’s kind of fun to do the impossible.
Walt Disney
It always seems impossible until its done.
Nelson Mandela
It always seems impossible until its done.
Nelson Mandela
We are all faced with a series of great opportunities brilliantly disguised as impossible situations.
Charles R. Swindoll
Attempt the impossible in order to improve your work.
Bette Davis
All of us failed to match our dreams of perfection. So I rate us on the basis of our splendid failure to do the impossible.
William Faulkner
It is difficult to say what is impossible, for the dream of yesterday is the hope of today and the reality of tomorrow.
Robert H. Schuller
Never think there is anything impossible for the soul. It is the greatest heresy to think so. If there is sin, this is the only sin; to say that you are weak, or others are weak.
Swami Vivekananda
The Difficult is that which can be done immediately; the Impossible that which takes a little longer.
George Santayana
To achieve the impossible; it is precisely the unthinkable that must be thought.
Tom Robbins
What is the beautiful, if not the impossible.
Gustave Flaubert
Don’t undertake a project unless it is manifestly important and nearly impossible.
Edwin Land
Yearning for the seemingly impossible is the path to human progress.
Bryant H. McGill
In order to attain the impossible, one must attempt the absurd.
Miguel de Cervantes
By striving to do the impossible, man has always achieved what is possible. Those who have cautiously done no more than they believed possible have never taken a single step forward.
Mikhail Bakunin
To do easily what is difficult for others is the mark of talent. To do what is impossible for talent is the mark of genius.
Henri Frederic Amiel
Everything is theoretically impossible, until it is done.
Robert A. Heinlein
Who so loves believes the impossible.
Elizabeth Barrett Browning
Every noble work is at first impossible.
Thomas Carlyle
Sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.
Lewis Carroll
David, Pete, all.
Even though my name was omitted from the list, I was the “original” woman to join in on road trips and then burn..in addition to Lee who was a student before David started road trips. :))
“If they are smart, they are out shooting and creating a body of work instead of sitting in front of a computer bickering and creating negative energy… which reminds me… gotta go shoot.”
Pete that is absolutely the case with me. I’m shooting daily. Loving it! Here at the computer now only because I’m busy charging batteries and planning a 2010 India trip. I’m also working on my new website cathyscholl.com
Alice laughed. “There is no use trying,” she said: “one can’t believe impossible things.”
“I daresay you haven’t had much practice,” said the Queen. “When I was your age, I always did it for half-an-hour a day. Why, sometimes I’ve believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast.”
Through the Looking-Glass, Lewis Carroll
Sorry…I saw Pete’s list, not Patricia’s, which did mention me. Thanks :))
In any case, burn continues to be a place I visit on a daily basis. I like to check in and see what’s new, join in if there is something I have to contribute but I’m not interested in “hanging out” here and getting caught up in the drama. Been there, done that. Not my turn any more, thank goodness :))
Herve, your wording WAS funny, but I think I understand..
———————————
(sweating…) thanks, Erica. Very badly worded, but in sync with my usual, argggh!, routine of erasing parts of a text, withut re-reading if it affects the whole sentence. I had first written after “a woman”, a parentheses: (and men too, still).
Erasing it took out the context of women as burnians, strictly. Errr… Not that other women can’t make great contributions in any field…… I meant…… Oh, heck, that’s it, castrate me, Erica, let me be your servile eunuch as you crack your whip on my docile shoulders…..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TKrH8Byq858&feature=related
:-)))))
There are only four living famous photographers
———————————–
4? That still beats famous poets, famous painters, famous sculptors, famous composers, famous movie-makers, and I am afraid, famous writers too.
And almost famous presidents (local or global)….
Anna and Erica, loved the quotes …
All the best things I have done in my life were those that everyone said I shouldn’t, or couldn’t, do. The greatest regrets in my life have come from those things that I told myself I couldn’t, or shouldn’t, do. Who knows what I could have done if I had just ignored myself. But the dance ain’t over yet so here’s to crazy dreams. Cheers.
EMCD,
beautiful work!!!
are you sure we are not related???
TOM HYDE,
“but the dance ain’t over yet”
Yeap…we haven’t even started !!!
One philosopher once wrote:
“you will suffer..you will breathe rare air….go for it…”
Yeap…we haven’t even started !!!
David, there was a time for photography. You lived it. There were outlets for photography. There were relatively few photographers. It was a time when a Walter Iooss could walk as a teenager out on the sidelines at professional football games with a Nikon F and a lens, shoot photos, and sell them to Sports Illustrated. But, as you say, this is a different time.
Who you are, plus the fact that you are a great photographer, opens doors for you at a time when there are few doors to open. Which I believe skews your perspective about the possibilities for emerging photographers. And the rest of the “famous photographers.” All these “famous” photographers are over 60 years old now. And times have changed radically.
I can’t imagine having done anything for a living other than be a photographer. I feel privileged to have come to photography when I did, and been able to spend so many years doing nothing else. But I’m not sure doing photography professionally is a viable long-term goal for “emerging” photographers now. Certainly trying to sustain themselves through photojournalism or documentary photography over the long term probably isn’t realistic.
Your optimism is to be applauded. But what would you do if you had to start at the beginning as a young photographer today? Minus all the outlets you had for your photos over the years? Minus the big Nat Geo budgets, the news magazines, and the other opportunities? Which is why I say your perspective is skewed. You came of age in photography during a golden time for doing what you do. What are the real prospects today?
IT”S TOO LATE TO BE PESSIMISTS
Is it really pessimistic to tell someone that if they take the road to the left they are going to drive off a cliff? But, don’t worry, Civi, folks hear what they want to hear and disregard the rest. :)
And TOO SOON TO BE OPTIMISTS? ;-)
I am not a photographer, dear Jim.
I hear you and I agree with you more than I want to agree.
THE GOLDEN TIMES for doing almost anything are gone…
I am in the same boat BUT, BUT
I am a true Civilian…and I got to find the way,I have a family too and I have worked and I am stiil
working like there is no tomorrow.
I got my health, I got my family,I got all of you who give me strength to go on
every single day…I will never give up and I will never surrender …as long as I have
my “ouzo” and ALL OF YOU …:)))
FOREVER YOURS
Civilian
Jim,
I think Monday DAH will have time to answer my interview questions..how about I include yours? “What would you do if you had to start at the beginning as a young photographer today?” I think it is a good one..
I think when David speaks of breathing rarefied air, he just means Bangkok…. :-)))
Hey all just thought I’d pass this on incase no one knew,
http://events.magnumphotos.com/magnum-workshop/magnum-workshop-new-york
“What would you do if you had to start at the beginning as a young photographer today?” I think it is a good one..
————————————-
Waiting for an answer. Really relevant to me, although “young” in my case would refer to my photography, not my age.
Ah Jim, our house cynic. You ask, “What are the real prospects today?” And I answer with a little story…
What is the likelihood that a 67 year old woman who picked up her first serious camera at age 64, who at that time didn’t know an f/stop from a stop sign and had never heard of Robert Frank, Robert Capa, James Natchwey or Magnum, would find herself mentored by the likes of David Alan Harvey (whom she’d never heard of either) and will soon meet with Melissa Harris, the editor-in-chief of Aperture (which she’d never heard of either), in hopes that she will want to publish this “emerging photographer’s” book of self portraits?
If this kind of thing can happen in a time when you say photography is in its death throes then I’d have to say that ANYTHING is possible!
gratefully
Patricia
Ah Patricia, you fall up better than anyone I know :))
Patricia, I think it would be great of your book gets published. I love the work you have done. But that has little to do with the future of emerging photographers. As has been said several times, there is really no money in books.
DAVID ALAN HARVEY SAID: “having a “skewed perspective about what is achievable” is EXACTLY what has brought me to a point in life where i must say i am quite happy in that THINKING something was possible , made it possible..”
Amen to that! Maybe DAH needed a spot in this clip… http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dvn_Ied9t4M
Patricia. Whether Aperture publish or not (and I sincerely hope they do), you have shown what can be achieved with belief and determination.
Your opening ‘self’ portrait remains, for me, one of the strongest and most honest self portraits i have seen.
John
PRESTON:
Well said! We need to have a beer sometime!
ERICA:
Awesome list of quotes!
CATHY:
Didn’t mean to omit you… was just posting the quote.
JIM:
………… Ah……. nevermind.
Ah… I see now!
Humorously suggesting Jim’s got a negative attitude? Bad! Calling Jim a cynic and telling others they have “daddy issues” and that they chased off all the women-folk?(even though that’s clearly not so.) Good!
Duly noted, Patricia. Duly noted.
Jason, thanks for the link.
Civi… seriously man! (woman?) with you… “what not to love!?” I’m drinking a pint to you this evening!
Jim Powers wrote: “Is it really pessimistic to tell someone that if they take the road to the left they are going to drive off a cliff?”
That depends on the state of mind the listener is in.
Perhaps, the listener begins to think “Awesome! I was looking for a place to do some rock climbing anyway!”
It’s all states of being states of mind…
Erica – you’re list of great things said is fantastic. Two of the people you’ve listed are among the top resources I listen to and reflect on for inner sight. Tony Robbins and Vince Lombardi – Kinda have to listen to Vince – I’m from Green Bay, his presence is everywhere and nowhere all at once. His sayings ans stories I’ve heard about all my life from my parents and others alike.
I’ve had an opportunity to see Tony live twice – What a guy. No one moves an audience more that he can, with genuine passion. He’s the real deal.
DAH – If you were at one moment an average person, you would not be who you are today. there is something extraordinary about you and who you are and how you see things in your life that has built you, the life you live, the work you do, the things you accomplish, and the friends and family base you have around you. I listen to you and read your posts and look forward to when I may actually meet and work with you, not because I think you will tell me how to be successful or what works best and what I should do, as that is something I must learn on my own. But I know you will help guide me to understand my abilities and my judgement more, perhaps even guide me into a thought or two that I hadn’t seen before.
My eyes are open, my mind – a sprout. Your mentoring can only help me grow. :) So Thank you. I will make a way for me and others to be successful in this world. As I see it right now, we are in a transitional state. We’ve yet to become, we’ve yet to let go as a society. We’re heading in a direction with many doors. Our society will eventually pick one and create a new path for our future to follow. I’m not waiting around till then. No, I must be busy and hard working now to be ready for that time when the world is ready. :) I think there are a great many people here and who have yet to find us, that feel and think that way.
Chad Brock – “Thunder’s just a noise, boys, lighting does the work”
Tony Robbins – “Go out and take action, and live your life with passion.”
Old proverbing dude – you have two ears and one mouth, use them in proportion.
Life is indeed short. And it is sometimes also nasty and brutish. But it doesn’t mean you succumb to it!
I am new to this forum, so I hope this is an apporpriate place to talk about a new grant for documentary photographers. It is the Michael P. Smith Fund’s Grant for Documentary Photography. It was created by the New Orleans Photo Alliance, a volunteer collective of photographers that got together after Hurricane Katrina to support each other.
We will be awarding $5000 annually to a photographer who currently resides in one of the Gulf Coast states of Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama and Florida. The subject matter for the proposed project, however, is not limited to the Gulf Coast region. NOPA will accept grant applications through September 1, 2009 and will announce the winner during this year’s PhotoNOLA festival in December 2009. For submission guidelines and to download an application form, visit the Michael P. Smith Fund’s website at http://www.neworleansphotoalliance.org/grants/MPS_Fund/index.php.
The deadline is coming up quickly: September 1, 2009. Please spread the word….
Thanks.
Bumper sticker philosophy, got to love it.
They only appear on bumper stickers because They’re short, simple, easy to remember statements, and because a man who had an impossible idea created the first assembly line in Detroit – setting off an era of automobile production that continues today.
Happy, happy! Joy, joy!
JASON: Nice!
Just thought I’d wade in here.
I’ve got no hard stats, but I believe there are probably more working photograpers out there than ever. By working photographers I mean people actually earning a living making photographs. There also seem to be more people than ever trying to become photographers. Contrary to what Jim thinks, I believe we are just NOW entering photographys golden age. The digital revolution has brought many many more into the fold. Welcome all.
We are awash with images. There are still huge numbers of magazines published, all full of photographs. There are millions, or billions of web-sites out there, full of photographs. There are countless brochures, magazine ads, print advirtising of all sorts, instruction books, text books, cook books, etc etc etc. People are still buying portraits, ask me, I’m in the portrait business. Photographers get PAID to shoot all those images people.
Yes I’m talking about commercial photography. Commercial photography is photography that people actually pay you money for.
Outlets for the kind of feature essays we see here on Burn?, another ball of wax. No more Look, Life, etc. It never was a large market employing thousands. In the hay-day of Life, how many photogs did they use? A handful. How many photogs does NatGeo use? a handful. It’s not a significant factor in terms of generating revenue for the hordes. As has already been pointed out, very few books of photographs earn the photographers any significant money. The people published here in Burn do not earn anything, nor does the publisher.
At the end of the day, I think aspiring photographers need to be realistic. You want to be free to persue your own project and remain pure? Fine, figure out a way to finance it without a sponsor or applying for a grant. Or, sharpen your skills as a photographer and do commercial work, sure beats washing dishes.
I’m guessing few photographers who frequent this site are at all interested in commercial photography.
SCENE: Stone age at the moment a caveman carved out a wheel…. Jim walks up…
Stares at the new invention and says: “What good is that? There is no market for it.”
The truly innovative, talented and ambitious photographer can create their own market. Will they be world famous or a millionaire? Maybe not. But can they earn a living and be happy and content in their endeavors?
Yes.
There’s always a “golden age” to look back on and long for. Except that there really isn’t… never has been and never was. The last paragraph of Gordon’s comment is as it ever was. And as it always will be. As DAH says… Go for it.
Or… bitch and moan, bitch and moan.
Pete, you’ve been doing this a long time. If you were starting out now instead of 25 years ago, with no professional cred, where would you start?
At the bottom and work my ass off to get to the top.
That’s a cop out, Pete. What is the bottom today?
Tell these folks starting out where the entry level is.
No Jim… you tell us.
There is no entry level.
That’s why I want Pete to give emerging photographers some ideas.
There is no entry level?
O.K. michael, where is the entry level for photographers?
Again… there is NO entry level, Jim?
Maybe that is part of the point – there isn’t an exact entry point, procedure anymore. But with strong work and right attitude you can be hired for work you want if you know how to get your work in front of the appropriate people..it may not support you full time, but it might.
It would depend on what you want to do exactly. But you talk as if newspaper photojournalism for example is over. I can get the stats from the NPPA if you like but there are still quite a lot of working newspaper photojournalists. As many as a year ago, no. But it does not mean that someone coming out of J school can’t get a job. It just means that the options will be smaller and the competition will be tougher.
Once we get through the current issues with funding newspapers, websites etc, and a new business model comes into being things will settle down again.
From a article by Dirck Halstead Editor and Publisher of The Digital Journalist:
“In a recent Platypus class, my students asked me, “Why would you be a photojournalist today?” I answered, ‘You have to be crazy.’ I have always considered being crazy as important to a photographer as being curious. Constitutionally, we thrive on chaos and challenge. Being a photojournalist is more a calling than a trade. Those people who will do anything to come back with a story will be out there shooting for a long time.”
I get the feeling that no matter what someone says in answer to Jim, he’ll say no, that’s not “entry level.” It is his way after all.
Jim powers wrote, again,
“Is it really pessimistic to tell someone that if they take the road to the left they are going to drive off a cliff?”
Not only is it pessimistic but it is, for some, patently incorrect.
From your insular perspective it might seem they are all going over a cliff but and some, in fact, will.
But there will be those that will not fall off the cliff and will instead find a new way.
To use one of your analogies, if Walter Iooss took similar advice from an individual such as yourself
years ago he might well have stayed in the stands shooting crap like the masses and never have ventured
onto the sidelines ultimately forging a new career.
And Jim, the bottom today is EXACTLY where it was 20 years ago. The only thing that changed is the NUMBER of STAFF opportunities. So work harder.
As for where progress has taken us… lets see, Aspiring movie makers can now shoot and edit a full length movie on desktop equipment costing under $15,000 when it would have taken $100,000 fifteen years ago.
Photographers can publish their own books and sell them on Amazon. ANYONE can create their own online publication.
There is more but I have to go.
Gordon, You’ve got a great point – If you’re going to make money shooting photos, then Commercial is where it’s at and probably where it will be for a long time to come. however, Now is when Jim is right. That market is super-saturated. Especially where I come from. And unfortuneately the folks who make up the majority of wedding, portrait photographers in my area are really hobbists and amateurs turned “pro” over night by their own doing. They say “I want to make my living this way, it’s so much fun” and off they go. Making a living that way and having fun. Here is the problem with these people, they don’t charge the same rates as those who came before – who once were the only people shooting, Now people pay less. infact you can easilly find a photographer to shoot your wedding for $500. Ridiculous! I’m not interested in overcharging, but I am a firm believer in you get what you pay for. I’ve had a chance to really look at some of the work these people put out and it’s very amateur. They shoot in JPG, attempt to color correct to make it beautiful and end up blowing out the image, things have a yellow cast, or cyan, the detail is lost due to over saving in photoshop, the quality just isn’t there. the effort just isn’t there.
Commercial work for products, thats how I got started. My dream in my early 20’s was to be shooting those fantastic photos you see inside car brochures. I wanted to do nothing but cars… But I was really good at landscape. I went off to college, and my academical advisor told me to join a class that “they jsut look over the local paper and discuss journalism” Well… sounded like an easy A and at the time I was struggling to get my GPA back up after having a bad experience with an awful teacher… Turned out it was nothing as she had told me. No, this was the class that taught journalism and assigned the duties to the school newspaper. I was now on the paper and the first day, we picked what we wanted to do the photo editor said to the editor in chief while pointing to me “I want him” Boom I was now a photog. What a thrill. I was still shooting color film, the paper is digital. I really got my feet wet in journalism and it became my passion and since then It’s whats been driving me. I went to school thinking I would learn about lighting and the arty , film end of photography to go off and be a pro commercial shooter.. instead I found something more fun, more emotional, more eye opening.
the paper introduced me to freelancers and one, My friend Mike who is here everynight, reading, lead me to David. David then lead me to burn.
how did that become my bio?
ADHD.. I was diagnosed as a kid… Anywho – Where does that bring me. oh yes.. Shooting com work is one way to go about it. To get me to the places I’ve shot in the past, it’s been work. In Iowa, I shot the flooding waters coming into Cedar Rapids last summer. I was there preserving a fresco in Marion’s old Post Office/City hall. To go to Baton Rouge this winter to photograph the women’s BB teal playing in the NCAA’s big dance, I sold stock.. No not stock photos, stock market stocks… To get to Pennsylvania to shoot the kids at summer camp, I was actually hired by the camp to shoot the kids, I was the official camp photographer. I think if you want to go to Africa, South America, Asia, and shoot children and family struggling in war torn countries, or drought devastated places, join the Peace Corps. Not only will they pay you a bit to be there, you will have a roof and food to eat.
If you want to go to Itally, France, Romania, then Perhaps shoot Art photography and enter your work in a gallery there. Heck you don’t need to shoot even, now-a-days you can sneeze on a piece of tissue and call it a sculpture. throw it on the gallery floor, pop up a little name badge, you’ve got your self an installation.
Anyway… Work – Perhaps working as a clerk or an archivist for such places as Magnum, Corbis, NGM, NYTimes, LAtimes, etc etc will help you fund trips…
need more freedom? Follow Joe McNally’s lead and write “How-to” photography books better than anyone has done before. rather than being dry and as a matter of factly, throw in your personality and make it feel like the reader is actually having a conversation with the author.
can’t stand to write? become a teacher. Teach photography, in the US you have the summers off! and sometimes an entire month in the winter as well. and then theres always Sabbatical…
These are actually ideas I’ve come up with for my self to try to figure out how I’m going to live after school…
To make money you need money. If you’re poor, broke, and starving, either get real and find a job that will pull you back out of your hole or turn the camera on your self and shoot your self until you die so you can have one last book made about the “starving artist” – be sure you have an agreement with a trusted person that in the event of your death they will produce a book of your work…
and as I ramble along here, that brings me to one more thought… Don’t just make a change and difference in your own life… don’t just move and take action – just for you. If you can create a movement – as I see one starting here on Burn, The bigger that movement gets, the more impact it has and the more work it gets done.
One drop of water cannot move a bolder.
One drop of water for over a million years can desolve and move a bolder chip by chip
A river of water can push a bolder an amazing distance.
A flooded river can throw a bolder into the sea.
human kind is like a heavy train. It takes a small group of people to pick a track (direction), Build a fire (take action), Create movement, build momentum, keep the fire burning. After a while, you’ve got a bunch of followers and if you feel necessary to break free and find another path, unhitch from the train, choose a new track, there are sure to be followers behind you when you go that will help stoke you and keep your fire alight. A leader is no one without followers. and a follower is no one without a leader. Sometimes, when the time is right, or there is no alternative. A follower must pick up the torch and relight it.
time to go – Will be out all evening shooting.
Peace Y’all!
Ooh the cliff analogy –
My favorite that my mom always used on me when I was a kid – “If everyone jumped off the bridge would you too?” I thought about it and came up with, Well if Everyone jumped off a bridge, then the pile of people would be pretty tall… So Yes I would. I’d let everyone else go first then I’d jump up on the pile and climb my way down. :)
Pete, I’m flooded with job apps from photographers. Folks that were shooting for big papers, willing relocate to take a job in a little 14,000 circulation paper at a salary that wouldn’t start to pay their bills. But I have no job for them. There are 50 shooters to fill any open spot at a newspaper, but there are few.
That just got me thinking about another favorite of my mother’s
“eat all that food! Don’t waste it. think about all those starving children in Africa”
My response was always -“Send it to them! If they’re so hungry why are you making ME eat it!?”
That way of thinking can only breed fat people. eh sigh…
It’s easy to talk in generalities among high minded ideas. But the reality on the street is another thing entirely.
Bumper sticker philosophy is uniquely american, and says so much about the american psyche. I can’t remember seeing any in France, or Asia (unless a painted Rambo or Serpico constitute philosophical adages…)
There are good lessons to learn from Patricia’s book venture. The main being that it is not really all about photography (which could prove discouraging to younger Ps, btw), but courage, a very defined story-line that can only be told by her, subjectively, personally.
A condition that adds originality to her purpose, not to speak again of her fortitude which will impress anyone.
An ability to be with people, on an human level, engrossingly, even with a precise “professional” ambition/goal in mind. natural ability to network, without making a pest of herself, but going places, letting people know she is “here”. In the end, little seem to appear as a succesion of hazards, but blocks upon blocks upon which she seized deserved opportunities.
Knowing herself, yet, willing to learn more. EMPHASIS ON WILL(ing). Deep inside, Patricia is a warrior, a much richer different deep inside that the BURN persona she prefers to inhabit.
She makes the point, unwillingly maybe, that what you write here, and how has absolutely no importance in regards of your life. lest you put reading/writing on BURN to good use in that life.
It’s easy to talk in generalities among high minded ideas. But the reality on the street is another thing entirely.”
That means absolutely nothing, Jim. You ask a specific question, people give you reasonable answers and you fall back on non sequiturs like this. Laughable.
I gave a specific response in the post before that one. A specific response to Pete.
Do commercial work, write books, do gallery shows. Do you think that’s entry level?
Entry level, for me, could be small town newspapers.
Certainly not an opportunity for everyone as the numbers you state suggest but one avenue
of opportunity.
Some will take this entry level opportunity and make something of it others, as we see, won’t.
Jim – Some advice from Captain Kirk in Star Trek Generations:
Captain Kirk to Captain Picard: Don’t let them promote you. Don’t let them transfer you. Don’t let them do *anything* that takes you off the bridge of that ship, because while you’re there… you can make a difference.
Perhaps being an editor has had an affect on your state of mind. You’re more of a slave now than you ever were. Being a Journalist isn’t all about recognition. The most memorable photos may not always have the photographer’s name attached. but It’s that image that counts. it’s that moment, stopped. The difference a single photo can have to change the course of thinking in a mass of people. Ultimately the audience of photojournalism isn’t the editors and photographer colleges you have. It is the Civilian Mass Audience. Ultimately they remember your works. Leave a legacy. Not a name, Make money doing with if you can,
As with many or maybe nearly all famous artists in history – They worked for little or no commission, some never sold a work in their life time. They did it for themsleves, they did it to say something, they did it to tell a story. It was fate that people in the future put value on their works and did their studying to trace back to who the artist was and create a history for the work. Photography is in no way near its hay day yet. It’s not simply a fine art wall piece as many paintings were ment to be. The world is awash in Music, dance clubs, art of every kind. There has been and will always be a market for it. Photojournalism is a specialized form of art that tells a story within the image and may be accompanied by a line or two to help direct the viewer.
Nothing is entry level Jim… nothing! Heh-heh.
Bitch and moan, bitch and moan.
I’m am editor at a small town newspaper. Trust me when I tell you there are few, if any, jobs for photographers at small town newspapers in Texas, at least. And I have my choice of experienced photographers who are out of work if I wanted to hire someone. I don’t have to take a chance on an unknown.
Jason, I keep hearing it’s not about the money. But you got to pay the bills.
A little inspiration:
http://www.ted.com/talks/view/id/613
Whatever you do in life… Go for it.
Thanks for what you say about me and my project, Herve. And what you say about my words on Burn not reflecting who I am in my core is oh so true. That’s why I am having such a hard time writing text for my book. The images cut to the quick in a way that my words never will. To me words just get in the way, but unfortunately they seem to be the way humans choose to communicate. Inadequate at best; deceptive at worst.
John G, Jim and Tom, your affirming remarks about my project couldn’t have come at a better time. I’m sitting here struggling to write text for my book. Taking the pics was a piece of cake compared to this. Of course I LOVE taking photographs, but writing? Not my favorite way of communicating, I’m afraid.
Patricia
here’s a london perspective. i left photography school (commercial photography) just over 3 years ago. I was one of the lucky ones. the often quoted figure is that there are 12,000 photography graduates each year in the UK. I don’t know how true that is, but i don’t think there is the capacity to support 12,000 photography graduates in the industry year on year, and thats before taking into account the vast numbers of people who quit the day job to follow their hobby as a career.
When I graduated from college, there were 28 people in my year. 3 years on, and the first year intake at my old college is 60 onto the BA Commercial Photography, and a similar figure onto the BA Photography. It’s a good school, but probably operating at above it’s capacity.
I graduated in an exceptional year. My contemporaries were motivated, skilled and ready to try their hand in the industry. 3 years on and here is where we are at. I worked as an assistant to a bloke called Zed Nelson for just under 3 years, and am now out on my own. Ben McMahon has forged a career as one of London’s most sought after freelance assistants, as well as shooting his own work. Kate is a producer at the Discovery Channel. Jo landed an MA scholarship at London College of Fashion, and now works on her own commissions and projects. Hannah is a picture editor at Bloomberg. Kitty works at a commercial photographers agency and also assists other photographers. Ed is a freelance assistant. Matt is teaching the foundation students at the college we graduated from. Stuart is a fulltime staff photographer at Autocar magazine. Federico assisted Wolfgang Tillmans for 3 years and now works on his own fine art projects. So that’s 10 from a class of 28 who are working in photography and its associated industries. Which is remarkable.
I consider myself extremely lucky to have graduated 3 years ago. I honestly feel that in just 3 years things have got a lot harder here in the UK. I wouldn’t want to be entering the industry now; there’s no unity amongst photographers – there’s always someone willing to work for free to “get their foot in the door” – which really undermines the industry. I’m fortunate that I managed to scrape my way past that bottom level (the entry level?) by serving an apprenticeship with a highly accomplished photographer – but these assistant jobs are few and far between. I could go on all day about the cutting of freelance day rates by ALL of the UK newspapers, but i’d be wasting my breath. editorial as a way of making a living is DEAD in the UK. Commercial/Weddings/Private Commissions is a far more sensible route if you want to keep your head above water over here.
I probably sound like a moaner, and yeah there’s loads of things that piss me off about the photographic industry. but sometimes i have to take a reality check and think – okay – i’m making a living (just) doing something that i really love. i get to travel sometimes, be creative, work with inspiring people. realistically, its all good.
so my advice to someone starting out now is do everything you can to stand out from the crowd. don’t just be a navel gazer with a 5D. photograph the things you love, be an interesting person, and be adventurous in everything you do. learn you trade, and learn your art. both will be invaluable. learning the techincal trade of photography will enable you to satisfy your clients; learning your art will make those clients sit up and take notice, but also open avenues to more interesting commissions and experiences.
people give jim a hard time, and sure he can be negative; but heck, it sounds to me like there are similarities with the state of the industry in a small county in texas as there are in a city of 12 million here in London. It’s not in a healthy state – however there are still opportunities there if you are willing to strive to excel at what you do.
The way I see it, if there are less jobs at newspapers so be it. Let the strong or the connected rise to the top. There’ll be other avenues opening up, and if not I’ll be shooting anyway. Not everyone gets to pay their bills through photography, and not every shooter wants too. The less dedicated will fall away, become hobbyists, which is fine…
No one knows exactly what’s going to happen with the business side of PJ, so let’s stop the eulogizing, we’ll find out soon enough…
mtomalty –
zing
And for Jim. ;^}
I’m out… see ya’ll in a few days. (maybe!)
Jim. All last year i did commercial. Big fat pay checks, big fat expense account….unbelievably dull work. I spent nearly all the money on financing my own work and helping out students and friends to do theirs. This year it all went tits up. Scrabbling for jobs to pay the rent. Emptying the penny jar for cigarettes now and then. I still find the money to shoot my own stuff, and I shoot dev and print film which aint cheap anymore. I tore out my kitchen and put a darkroom in which I got incredibly cheap from a local lab. I am in there right now making 12×16’s for myself and as gifts. Can I afford it? Hell no, but its what I do.
Like most people I hear rumors of work that dont usually materialise. MOJO aint called back, Rolling stone have never called at all. I have a fingernail grip on a possible publisher in italy, and another on a big celebrity jewellery designer. Will they work out? Who knows?
But Im still here and im still SHOOTING PICTURES THAT I WANT TO SHOOT. Next week I drive to ireland with an old friend to The Flatlake literary festival for 3 days R&R, with a bag full of battered old cameras and a whole bunch of film I cant really afford……Should be fun.
Im 45 jim. I dont own shit except a battered old merc and a bunch of cameras. What the hell is successful? I didnt even know what a camera looked like until I was 37. I shouldnt have made 40 So I never bothered with all that career malarky, But ive travelled pretty much the world since then, and ive met some great people. I may even have made a couple of half decent pictures. Maybe that dont amount to much in your world view, and i respect that, but its all ive got, and i wouldnt change a thing.
Anyway gotta go, selenium bath is waiting. hey ho.
John.
Note
just got this email.
Hi John,
Found your work from the comments on the burn website, really enjoyed
browsing through your portfolio. Also your website is really well done.
We have just started a website for black & white photographers, we would
be honored if you would check out the site and maybe share some images and
comments.
……….no money in it jim, but……
Yes Jim, the last time we had an open position at the paper, 3 years ago, I had about 40 applicants. About 6 of those were qualified to do the job.
Maybe there are more “photographers” out there than there are jobs. And maybe that is not a bad thing. Maybe it is time to thin the herd.
Too bad the wedding photographers don’t have a way of doing that.
I’m jumping into this one. I will have none of this argument that
you cannot make a living as a photographer.
After 7 years asa US Navy photographer and photojournalist.
I spent 7 years as a working photojournalist, I got fired and found out
that there was more to this work than long, under-paid and under-appreciated
labor that lives under the guise of daily news photography.
Back in 1992 I found myself having to decide how to make a living
and do it with my camera and skill. I’ve shot jewelry, boxes, tires, peanuts (yes,
you read that right), hair implanting among other exciting and interesting subjects.
Now things have come back around and I utilize my photojournalism skills along
with important lessons learned about light and lighting to help institutional clients
get their message out. This summer I did a location broom shoot. Say what you
want, but my work does not come cheap. They want me, they want my way of
seeing things.
I am president of the Atlanta/SE Chapter of ASMP. I surround myself with good
people who I trade ideas. One of our board members specializes in ophthalmic
imaging. He’s started a professional association, The Digital Imaging Institute for Science and Medicine. His personal work hangs and sells in galleries and is a close
friend of Thomas Werner, also a national board member of ASMP.
I live in a city of 30,000 and can still find a way to pay a mortgage and send a child
to a private college. I’m always worrying about more work, but it all seems to work
out. You know, I travel with my work, I see a lot. I make a living.
Bill Strode, someone I’m so sad that I met too close to the end of his short and brilliant
life, became a book publisher. Dick Durance goes on speaking tours and photographs
golf courses for the PGA. David Alan Harvey started this unreal web portal called
BURN. All NGS photographers!
I rest my case.
indeed..no one need be pollyanna about the state of affairs, and as my dear great grandmother used to say to me whenever things seemed particularly or unfairly hard, “Things are tough all over, kid” but that doesn’t mean that those with the right combo of talent and perseverance, know how and the willingness to diversify / add skills will manage if not thrive. and it’s so true that there are too many people thinking that they are qualified to do something they are not..some of the woes about no work are because that person isn’t making the cut (NOT talking about anyone here specifically)..not sure what we are even talking about here anymore, because we all know that jobs in general are more in demand, that the economy is in disrepair, that print media is undergoing a revolution and that stock photos replace some assignments and some assignments pay less..but from where I am sitting, the future is wide open and I’ve never felt better about my own place in the scheme of things.
p.s JIM..an update to say that I’ve shot a bunch of rolls with your lens now, and it feels pretty darn good. When my film person returns home from overseas and I can see the images, I’ll know if a 35 is indeed what I should buy next. Although Andrew S has also loaned me a neat-o super old super slow 50 and it too feels right..will have to wait to see the film. Thanks again for your generosity.
hoping that last bit before my note to Jim didn’t sound glib..like many of you i am expending 10 – 12 hours every day on photography and yes I am doing as much as I can and many times I wonder how nice it would be someone who wasn’t compelled to do this and maybe it shouldn’t take this single mindedness to succeed, but “it is what it is.” :)
emcd. Have you thought about a 24?
Wheres panos with the music???
Erica, glad to help. You’ll get hooked on the 35 I think. I usually shoot 50’s myself, but most folks seem to prefer the 35. I also have an old 35 3.5 Summaron (probably about the same vintage as that 50 Elmar you are using) that gets some use as well. Slow and lower contrast than the Nokton, of course.
John, my lens (only) was a 28..a wide seems ‘nrmal’ to me, but I am at the point in the book where I have shot so much that the view of 35 or 50 is a great addition. If I buy a 35, i may not rush to get a 28 right away, but of I get a 50, will have to…
ok.
F stop, the stop sign or the bus stop. i couldnt tell the difference either about a year ago.
if my hands were not tied to my day job, i will crank up my puny little camera and use it to photograph anything even my toes everyday.
what determines an emerging photographer from the next one is determination to create some authorship, hair in the wind so to speak and not necessarily from a cooling fan at costco.
here you are, a well known photographer offering mentorship to anyone who takes interest, that really in reality can be very expensive and unaffordable. but to only those who are really serious in going forward.
success in what we do is determined by how much we want it. it weeds out the rest of us who are half assed.
no matter what situation we are born in, no matter what gender, no matter what language we speak, no matter wherever in the universe we live in. it is about hard work and skinned knees, and again how much we want it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YiUXl0TwR8
Silversun Pickups – “Kissing Families”
Y’all are just so cool.
Gracie, I’m not sure what success is. For some it may be making a living with photography, or not. Being “regognized”, or working in obscurity, shooting only for yourself.
I think whatever shape photography takes for each of us, we all seem to recognise each other because of the common obsession each of us has with making images. It is the path we all use to try to make sense of the world.
Love my life.
Band Of Horses – The Funeral
interpol-obstacle 1
PANOS,
thanks for the music…
What about that…for a change :)))
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKrDvLlgfvA&feature=related
Enjoy
brother panos:
just returned….shooting for 4 hrs….back-broke from breaking book….boiling film in canister….book send to editor, smile shine….marina is over finland bay on the way, descending, toward moscow…film chugging in a canister now, in the kitchen, as i ripens…just a moment. for you…
now, running again, away
for U
Bob — Wish you were around here more. Burn is a better place with you in the mix.
Thanks for the email a couple of weeks back.
Adam
Fever Ray – When I Grow Up
http://www
VIVA BOBBLACK,
we are sending good energy to Marina!!! and to the other man of the family…
BURN FAMILY is a place to be…
I count on all of you BURNIANS and I know that you out there…
shooting,drinking,crying,farting,laughing… YOU ARE FAMILY too!!!
join the BURN… ouzo and cold beer is on the house…yeap…
Bobus…
keep up the good work…
and dont forget to visit the conversesrouges too..:)
N.W.a – Straight Outta Compton
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TMZi25Pq3T8
from LA to Toronto , big hug
adam :))))…
i dont know if i make a difference at all…but, well, i LOVE that song, swallow=tip-tick-stones fulll…and the video too…all that 3-d karmic-pinpricktouch…depth of our lunging hearts, yes? :)))))….anyway….gotta take the film out of the can….running to finish and then off…send the wiseones another note about u too….
cma:….what can one do…??…but send all that good shit out into the light of life….u get 1st copy (after panos) of the book(s), ok? :)))
running
b
Bob — You make a difference.
Adam
Adam..:)
what kind of “difference”..?
just kiddin…:))))))))))
adam:
ps. speaking of Sweedish (fever ray)…u gotta see this (the movie)….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rwc62akalSQ
brother p: :)))
i havent forgotten converserouge (look almost everyday!)……just been like, 3 weeks of intense shooting and no time for internet/blog ……but, gotta some major straightoutaawherever shit for that blog…give me a couple of days to get the film developed…
running
hugs
b
you send me a signed copy I send a bottle of ouzo !!!
What about that ?
xexe
Miss you, Bob B. Adam’s right–things go better when you’re here. Please just ignore the jibes and come back to us ;=)
hugs
Patricia
MESSAGE TO EVERYONE… DON’T SAY YOU WERE NOT WARNED!
http://www.pbase.com/image/115802983
I got to check this converses…again.
What is the correct address?
I can’t find it?
http://conversesrouges.com/
Herve..:)..
Warned ? for what ?
My 2c worth:
From my limited time working fulltime (nearly 2 years), I think that in the photography world the sky has probably always been falling to some extent; but everyone must find their own way of producing meaningful work.
The newspaper industry is probably a lot more limited now compared to what it once was, but I decided I’d rather work freelance.
Most of my work is for editorial mags. I usually write/photograph stories that I’m interested in, which is great, but still have to have personal projects to be able let the hair down a bit. Not that I’ve got much hair left of course…
My project doesn’t make me any money, it costs me money and time, but I can’t not do it. Here in NZ we’ve never had high paying editorial clients anyway, so I’ve tried to cut my cloth accordingly.
I absolutely hated my previous job. I chucked in managing a supermarket butchery dept to freelance. A year earlier I had been offered another managing job in a rival supermarket (that would have paid over 4x what I know earn) but turned it down to work part time so I could bridge the gap until I could freelance full-time.
But now I get to meet so many inspirational people and don’t have to put up with the negativity that is inherant in supermarkets. Anyway, when you work for a boss you can be given a week’s notice and you’re out of a job anyway. I’m fortunate to have around 2-3 month’s solid work out front, so have a certain amount of stability (at the moment!).
Photography was a job I’d dreamed of doing, but never had the gut’s to actually try. Or as David said in his post “over analyzing if something was possible would have led to no action” Well it certainly lead to “no action” for me for too long, till I decided bugger it; it’s now or never.
So now I write and photograph stories for a range of regular mags, shoot some stock specifically so I can stay solvent and shoot my project. Do I miss the regular money? Yes, sometimes, but I don’t regret leaving the supermarket job, which I did at 44 years of age.
It may sound a little egotistical but… the other nice thing is that I’m finally in a job where you get a little respect from people. It’s funny how people’s perceptions change with your job. As a butcher (even when managing a dept that turns over more than $1,000,000 annually), you’re still regarded as someone who is about as “thick as two short planks”
When working in Vanuatu I was talking to some ex-pat doctors who said they were envious of my job and how “lucky” I was. I often chuckle when I wonder if they would have said the same if I told them I was a butcher!!!
One of my good friends owns a rare breed livestock farm and is always struggling to make ends meet. We decided that there is always one big bonus about being broke; when people mention the “global recession” you say “What recession? Nothing’s changed; I was broke before and still am!” :-)
If you want to do something bad enough you find a way, no matter what. The sky is falling now and will probably continue to do so. Remember there are no pockets in your shroud.
Sorry I went over my 2c limit… Cheers
probably been played here already…
herve :))))
that’s why i don’t drive anymore……only public transportation….it’s (bodily) safe and eco friendly ;)))))
brother panos, adam, patricia, herve…
well, just a quick note…and then i have to run (film is hanging from my kitchen)….
just a brief (promise herve) brief story…
so…tonight, i sat upon a lawn in front of 200 year old buildings, listening to a story of a women who is a center part of the project i’ve been working on, a friend, whose family originally was from china, moved to Mauritous, then moved to Trinidad, then baulked at all that, and drifted toward the lapping suburbs of Toronto…photographing her as she spoke of identity and loss and all that blossomed in front of her (these 200 year old buildings chisseled by people who would not recognize her father) and i thought: this is the wonderment….our selves, each of us, mixed and jostled by time and heritage and geography, and while listening to her stories, i thought, why is it that we so seldom genuflect in front of bewilderment and wonder…..
if there is anything that y’all should continue to celebrate, and to me (now as an outsider and infrequent contributer/reader) seems all to missing, is that simple equation:
that we are wonderous, that we are bound to one another, in our ancient wanderings and our new connection…..
all this talk of books…(shall i share with you a friend, who has spent 15 years journeying to make a simple book that breathes life, thought he has neither the fortune nor the connection to saddle up to those who may immediately make a difference)…and all these divisive rants and arguments….
we are all, each of us, letter-to-letter, strain-to-strain, urgentbreath-to-baitedbreath, connnected to that act which joins us to one another…..
wonderment and the wealth, the extraordinary wealth that allows us, through grace and honor, to be able to make these silly pronouncements and exegises and chest-thumping proclamations….
we are all part of the same part and parcel, and we should not forget that, above all else….
and this….3 days ago, i received a letter from a student from laos, who wrote of a small memory: the warmth she’d felt talking about grandparents, and the exchange of pictures, continents apart, stories gathered….
we too often forget how tiny and insignificant we are, but in our righteous, elongated delusion….that we are, each of us, a part of one another, and nothing else….and nothing else…
drive safely, and celebrate that which you have, for that, itself, is an extraodinary privilege, and something we should feel blesed by….
and pictures; the rhyme of all of our lives, which pass much much too quickly….
running
b
We were riding through frozen fields in a wagon at dawn.
A red wing rose in the darkness.
And suddenly a hare ran across the road.
One of us pointed to it with his hand.
That was long ago.Today neither of them is alive,
Not the hare, nor the man who made the gesture.
O my love, where are they, where are they going
The flash of a hand, streak of movement, rustle of pebbles.
I ask not out of sorrow, but in wonder.
-Czeslaw Milosz
and Bob filled the room again with joy…
and with Bob as a guest star one more Late Night Show
comes to an end…
goodnite from downtown LA…
be good
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KTRSVmxiLoQ
peace y’all…
Ok, Bob, but let’s not forget that part of us oppressed in Burma, exterminated in Darfur, starving slowly in a North Korean jail bereft of humanity, and others… one may be ONE, but still not together.
whats new Cynic Herve?..:)
… i was trying to get myself in bed… then i read Herve on Burn…
then i started doing my laundry…:))
why Herve.? why???
herve:
if we truly understand that we are part (and, by dint of life separated) of all, we never forget that….that we, who have had the wealth and fortune (the profoundly disheartening realization) not to have been stamped, exterminated, starved or shackled, have the duty to not only realize that, but to make our lives commiserate with that….
it goes without saying….
we have (for me) but one duty, and that is, within the best of our lives and our capacity, to abide and to stem, in whatever we do (though we fail) to connect and to attempt to stem the suffering…
away from the virtual world of priviledge, the attempt to do more than remember, but to act, is what lights our life, here…..
it is a duty, at least for me…failing, it does….but it is still a duty….on the web it may ring hollow, but i care less for the what is written then what is done…
i assume, that is already understood….
each of us lives a simple mandate….
none of which needs to be argued or carved out by words, but by deeds…
i will speak your words to my friend, a burmese monk, who will smile (as he did on tuesday night) knowing that besides the scars he carries, there are people who feed instead of proclaiming ;)))
look, and u will see my friend….i guess, i’d thought my words reflected that….i guess i was wrong…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V08EBWQLzyU
b
… i also wanna thank CIVI in the tonights Late Night Show’s
participation also as a guest star next to Bobus… again…
waiting for Herve while doing laundry…
of course Jason is already a staff member… :))))))))))))))))
Carrie Roseman…
I love the way u right…
anything u right,
i love reading…
i dont know what it is…
but it is what it is…:)
write…:)))))))))))))))))
… but i really meant “right”…
:)
Panos! Did you get that laundry folded yet? I have some here if you would like to keep folding while you wait.
I’ve been too busy to do anything with it.
Here’s a bit of the fun I encountered today. “Tongues On Broadway”
http://iphonephotojournalist.blogspot.com/
What do you think?
yes… the phone is also a camera…
that provides instant feedback…
real live coverage…
either your “gallery” style way
or
the conversesrouges real live coverage ( most of the times- but no rules… )
Either way, u cant deny the phone camera plus it plays music at the same time,
plus posting on Burn all at the same time,,,
laughing…
only Skype is actually a better deal just because its free…
The iPhone is a dream, the monthly cost a nightmare… I don’t know how long this project will go on, as I haven’t been able to keep up with my bill as of late. It’ll be paid up come Sept though. Then it’ll be easier.
Never used Skype. Just sold my webcam too. So no video chats for me either. Ah well I spend too much time at the computer anyhow. Love the mobility this phone allows me!
BOB…
the others are correct…Burn is better when you are here….i mean the commentators here are just one big family with all of the good and bad of “family”….for all of us to have the incredible luxury of being able to communicate about a subject we all share is just, well, a luxury of time and intellect…how we all use it is up to us ..there is no other arbiter but US…there is no “the man”…this is open free range country….and free means that some will say something which which others may disagree…this is a good thing…politeness is always appreciated just as mush as is opposition viewpoint…polite discourse does not mean holding back though…it just means the content of the message is absorbed rather than the “tone” of the message becoming the content of the message…
welcome home Bob…..
cheers, david
JASON…
since the Iphone is good for everything but making phone calls, i have now started using it as a camera , with some incredible results…but, yes my monthly bill!! nightmare..mostly from Euro texting….all Panos’ fault who insisted i buy one when we were walking in new york one day…
cheers, david
I don’t have any problems with the iPhone. Yes if you travel overseas you should turn off the data part except when you are using it. Otherwise it will continue to poll for email and texts and every time it does it uses time and you get billed for it. When in Italy last year, I would turn on the data part of the phone in the morning at lunch and before I went to bed to check messages and email. The bill was nominal.
As for a phone, I have no more issues than I had with sprint or verizon. Until there is a cell tower every 1/2 mile in this country there will always be a dropped call.
The other “technical” issue about dropped calls is this: The more users that are attached to a single tower making calls, the effective range of the tower will contract. This will sometimes cause dropped calls. It is not always about “coverage”. Usage per tower also has an effect.
Basically I have 2 iphones on a plan that I pay 125.00 a month for. I have more text message ability than I need, I even though I am always on the phone, I have NEVER used all my minutes and now have thousands of rollover minutes that I will never use.
DAVID:
To switch off the data part of the phone when abroad, go to the settings application, select GENERAL, select NETWORK, Turn DATA ROAMING to OFF
PETE…
yes, thanks…i did learn how to cut off “data roaming” when traveling a long time ago..and it is not the Iphone itself, it is AT&T that is a problem for me and many others….even in new york i have to walk around my loft for the best signal..down here at the beach, it works on my front porch, but not in the kitchen at the back of the house etc etc…others tell me the same from major u.s. cities …other times, in remote places in Mexico or Africa it will work just fine…but, my bill is bad simply from overseas text messaging and phone calls…i have literally hundreds of euro and asia text messages every month…Anton and i are on text 24/7 for example…on the positive side, i have my whole portfolio and slide shows on the phone, music collection, and can find anything anywhere anytime anyplace……
cheers, david
Hello, Burn buzz group!
On quick tip, if you’d like to stay with Verizon or Sprint and not cross over to ATT, your iPod is a great way to keep your portfolio with you at all times. I’ve got my portfolio and latest multimedia project on my iPod nano. Hand someone the ear phones and they can listen/watch a multimedia piece or just let them scroll through the still images portfolio. The small nanos are easy to slip in your pocket or your wallet and you can show off your work immediately when someone says, ‘So what do you shoot?” And you’ve still got your music too.
Great discourse and I look forward to future buzz…
Jamie Rose
Director of Workshops | Momenta Workshops
Momenta is proud to feature David Alan Harvey’s American Family Workshop Series.
Locations in San Francisco & Miami. Learn more at http://www.momentaworkshops.com/reg.php.
“Anton and i are on text 24/7 for example”
have you considered marriage?
There are NO two people in the world that need to text that much! (grin)
Bob, you have been absent, and is excused. But just to remind you. I am the one who talked first of that movie (VJ), and gave a link to it. And I disagree that it is all understood. It is never all understood, but on the contrary, rather always misunderstood.
The most potent art is that which attacks ignorance and misunderstanding, the mystery of our selves, and art celebrating “it’s all understood” is just nice wall-paper most often.
Burmese monk? Oh sure, I have no doubt that for each bad place in the world, you have a “friendship” ready to put in the conversation, for good use…. :-)))))))))))
Bob, no mistaking…. I like you….. “Qui aime biem chatie bien” and all that!
Jim and all: what do you think of this? It’s about Sally Mann. I am not sure, it bugs me (what place would have decomposing corpses in the open?), at the same time, I found the clinical morbidity relating to more than a few of her family portraits. Soemhow… Not sure…. She is not a Ph. I have given a lot of thought yet.
but anyway:
PETE…
well amigo, you run your own site, so you have some idea of what goes into it and you ARE married to your best producer…i know it seems impossible that Anton and i would have to communicate so much, but it is a reality for Burn….
cheers, david
HERVE…
i think i wrote about Sally and her project last year…it was featured at Look3….there are several such body decomposing sites around the country….mostly related to crime solving procedures…..as you know, Joel Peter Witkin also fascinated by the dead…none of this would inspire me to pick up a camera, but to each his/her own…
cheers, david
I have Mann’s book, “What remains.” I think it’s a pretty amazing project, actually. It wouldn’t work with with sharp photos made with modern processes, but the large format camera she uses with the wet colloidal process transforms the images for me.
JIM…
i agree….
DAVID,
Oh I know for a fact what you do here is much more involved than what I do on The37thFrame.org and American-Journal.org And you are right, Jenny is the best. And I know that Anton is the man when it comes to what goes on here.
DAVID:
running to shoot, a bag strapped with 3 clicking cameras…so will be short…yes:
Su casa es mi casa ;)))…and vice versa, as u know ;)))
Herve:
thanks for the lecture…:)))…after being on the planet for 40 years, i did need you, once again, to illuminate things for me…you, at least in your virtual self, are quite the enlightened and (should i add) generous soul, how could i have ever imagined less …you are one of the primary reasons why i no longer participate here, but that’s my own problem…your language and virtual self is toxic…but since you ‘know’ burnma/burmese apparently more intimately than anyone else, i defer to your wisdom….:))….
Sally Mann is one of my favorite photographers both for her images and for her aesthetic. She is honest and original. I highly recommend the DVD of filmmaker Steven Cantor’s 2005 feature-length documentary on Sally. It is called “What Remains: The Life and Work of Sally Mann.” To read more about the film go to
http://www.dvdtalk.com/reviews/32643/what-remains-the-life-and-work-of-sally-mann/
Patricia
Mann’s life and work merged long ago. She seems to be the real deal.
Oh dear, here we go again. Sad to say there is a lack of understanding between our brothers Herve and Bob B that seems to make it hard for them to find their commonalities, at least online. Any chance you fellas could refrain from commenting about one another? Then maybe both of you can stick around to share your thoughts and wisdom. We all lose when you get each other’s goat.
Pretty please with whipped cream and a cherry on top ;=)
Patricia
Patricia..:)))
it’s impossible for me to live the
“Burn life”.. without..
either Bob or Herve..:))
viva Burn..
Panos, I feel exactly the same. We need BOTH Bob and Herve here on Burn. Maybe dear Civi can work her/his magic and touch them with his/her magic wand of *LOVE*
hugs
Patricia
Jim…
Must ask: if talking about Penn’s work in a similar vein as the recent essay, would you still say that ‘mccurry does this sort of stuff so much better’ ?
McCurry and Delaney’s images have much more to do with each other than Penn’s. I see what you are suggesting, but I’m really not a fan of Penn.
How would you say McCurry & Delano’s have more in common than Delano’s have with Penn’s?
Sorry, Delaney..am typing on phone
… all I know is that Apple and At&t
forgot to send me my commision for July..
Nobody new about the freaky iPhone until
I discovered it in last years Look3..
And now it’s a trend..
9 out of 10 Burnians are swearing on the iPhone..
and nobody except DAH gives me my props…
Ahhh life is unfair..
Where is my credit?
Laughing…:) I’m glad y’all followed..
Big hug from LA..
The official capital of the iPhone ..
Yikes
Erica, there’s no way to have a really objective discussion on this because I don’t like Penn’s stuff. His photography seems soulless to me. There are real people looking back at me in McCurry’s and Delaney’s photos.
Herve, I’m a little puzzled at your statement that McCurry’s portraits were strictly a commercial venture. The portraits themselves were taken over many years. Was the book a commercial venture? Well, of course. What else would it have been?
Bob, you do participate, and most welcome to. Do not take what I say, too seriously. I don’t!
Deeds, Bob, deeds. ask the burmese monk! :-)
I do apologize, Patricia, it’s just that philosophicating that sounds like a Windham Hill record just gets at me, it’s like a pavlov dog reflex… Gnaarl, gnaaarlll….
I can gnaaarl at me too for the same reason, it’s nothing personal with Bob who is also a complex individual and artist, hence much more than ONE already (without anyone coming into the frame!). I dunno, going on a limb, but here I will guess and say: ask Marina!
Check out The F Blog at http://gruppof.blogspot.com/. I have some photos up today.
They have a long recent interview with Alex Majoli and also interviews with Graciela Iturbide and swedish photographers Lennart Nilsson and Gunnar Smoliansky and more.
Jim,
I guess my question then would be what do you see in common in McCurry and Delaney’s portraits?
Regarding Sally Mann I saw a large exhibition of hers last year. And the “What remains series” was in a closed area with a warning sign if I remember correctly. I didn’t find them very provoking at all. Her other works are probably more provoking.
I think it’s interesting that she explores death. One of the most natural things in life yet so very very sensitive..
Herve, I know that my way of expressing myself often causes your inner dog to “gnaarl, gnaarll” too, but that’s the weakness of online communicating–we have no other clues to go by (as in facial expressions, a look in the eye, tone of voice a hand on a shoulder or even a wink). All we get are words, words and more words. No actions at all.
I guess tolerance is a HUGE part of getting along online. Can’t you just not read someone’s comments if you know they’re going to yank your chain? I’m saying this to myself too. I try to keep my “gnnaarls” to myself but don’t always succeed, ie., my comment about “daddy issues” which, of course was none of my f***ing business!!!
Patricia
The format, Jim. The fact that there was, if I remember, absolutely nothing, even a caption with the pictures. Exotic people. Exotix candy for the eye,published as Mc Curry became hot commercially, and still is).
Good point that they were taken over many years. if you put them one after the other in the same format, that time singularity, actually their singularity period, evaporates, under the quantity (if you compare this quantity with the richness and quality of the cultures depicted, which no reader would bother to guess, or look into).
I do not for once think Mc Curry had but the greatest respect and empathy for these people as he went and met them. I suspect he saw no harm in a book of all of them. Rightfully so. But see we do a lot of critique here…… ;-)
Sometimes, what you make of a picture can be totally foreign to its single potency. That’s what repetition does to things. It very well may be this book format was “forced” on him. I have no idea.
That “daddy issues” comment brought
laughter and tears in my eyes…though..
We can’t always be political correct..
But ahhh.. Who cares..:)
let’s lighteng up..
And I’ll be the first to admit mostly my
“mommy issues”.. than the daddy ones..
Thank u y’all..
Keep smiling :)
Patricia, I NEVER read Bob’s comments before!!!! It’s only since they are shorter, meaning twice the size of anyone else’s- that I relapsed…. My fault, yes, not Bob’s.
;-)
Martin, thanks for posting the link to your work and statement on The f blog. There is such a feeling to your photos. Maybe there are no people per se but I hear echoes of their voices and see hints of what they have left behind. Strong work. I’d love to see an essay of yours here on Burn.
Regarding Sally Mann and What Remains, to my way of thinking she is simply exploring the natural cycle of life and death. I see that project as an organic evolution of her portraits of her children, landscapes and forests, and more recently, her portraits of her husband’s body as it undergoes changes and deterioration due to a rare form of muscular dystrophy. As Jim says, Sally is the real deal.
Patricia
P.S. You can see by all my posts today that I am sitting at my computer doing everything I can to avoid working on my book’s text!
Erica/Jim;
One great thing about Burn is that you learn about so many other photographers through other people’s likes and dislikes. For example; I’d never heard of Sylvia Plachy until I learned of her here (maybe from Erica??), but once I saw her work I was blown away.
I also don’t think I would have “got” her work if not for Burn. Burn has certainly opened my eyes to the many different styles of photography. I don’t like everything I see, but it has left me much more open and accepting which has to be good.
My favourite book is Larry Towell’s “Mennonites”, it amazes me away every time I look at it. I also love the production quality; the paper they used is amazing, almost rice paper. My next purchace is Towell’s “The World from My Front Porch”
Cheers
“The World from My Front Porch” is puffy. The cover that is, like an old album. Very interesting production throughout, you might want to jump on this new copy for just $29.98..chaeapest I’ve seen it.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/190571209X/ref=dp_olp_new?ie=UTF8&condition=new
It’s hard not to notice though that
once something ,anything .. is been shot on
large format is considered art or amazing immediately…
Hmmm… anyways.. back to my lunch break..:)
… and if u think about it Large Format
usually means commercial photography and
advertisment.. Therefore …”sell out”…
I guess people confuse the effort of
carrying and setting up a heavier camera as
a skill that promotes higher end photography..
Or as we say in America..
The Bigger the Better..
The More the Merrier..
Thank god the French parfume makers disagree..:))))
So here is the recipe:
1) choose an EXOTIC location…
2) get the Largest Format Available..
3) act like u “saving” someones heritage..
4) Ask Wikipedia for historic details
5) let the indigenous helpers carry your
heavy shit.. Tripods etc..
6) shoot everything in 3 days max..
7) go back to NY and call Natgeo…
and there u have it.. Another legend is born..
8) do an exhibition in the heart of Manhattan
and pretend u r sending the profits to
the starving African or Kazakh children…
Try it…:))))
it works…:)
Laughing…
I consciously try not to look at images and ask if they have been shot before, because the answer is invariably going to be “yes”. Then it becomes a matter of who shot something better. Who cares. These nomads have been shot before, and quite well, but they hadn’t been shot by John before. They hadn’t been shot from his point of view. So instead of focusing on what was done better, I prefer to look at these images in a vacuum, where they can be judged on their on merits.
Panos; … and if u think about it Large Format usually means commercial photography and advertisment.. Therefore …”sell out”…
Man; you’re painting with a pretty wide brush there :-)
so how about substituting these few:
So here is the recipe:
1) choose an EXOTIC/FRINGE culture (eg drug, prostitution, homeless etc)…
2) get the Smallest Format Available.. (cell phone etc, guarantees “art appeal”)
3) act like u “showing” someone’s fringe culture..
Sorry, but I couldn’t resist :-)
It’s certainly a lot harder to shoot middle income, mum and dad with 2.5 kids,white picket fence ordinary, everyday folks.
Cheers mate, just having a bit of fun :-))
Ross..:)
laughing…
Exactly…
There are so many creative ways to be
pretentious nowadays …
Well; I’ve got a pinhole holga coming to try and shoot long exposures at the local skate park. Got to keep pushing the boundaries of creative pretentious-ness (is that a word?) :-))
PATRICIA,
I really appreciate your words. Hopefully I’ll have an essay up here within the next couple of months.
No stress on my part though. I know there are many many photographers that are also waiting to be published.
You described Sally’s work and artistry very well!
Cheers
Martin yes…
Essay.. Bring it on…
Can’t wait…:))))
Brian, would you want to look at photos of the same McDonalds restaurant shot by 1,000 different photographers? They all have a unique perspective. They all bring something “new” to the image. Who cares if that restaurant has been shot before? It’s all good.
Herve you are great at criticising and lecturing others but it is a pity your own work is staid and lacks commitment. No need to reply unless your ego thinks otherwise
Ross, yes it’s a word, but equally sound is pretension..I guess it depends on your level of pretense. :))
Where did Bob Black go? Extended vacation???
You know if it wasn’t for Burn we would never have seen most of this work here. Kind of amazing.
I just scrolled back on the comments one page and it seems that Bob just came back. . .
I wouldn’t want to look at one image of a McDonald’s, but that’s not what I was talking about. I would not seek out an image of a McDonald’s, but if one was shown to me, I would judge it how I saw it. If another was shown to me, I would judge that one how I saw that too.
Off to go shoot.
Gracie…:)
funny what the word “exotic”
means in LA..
Usually describes a new stripper
that just arrived from Iowa…
laughing…:)
big hug to all strippers..
Exotic and non…
Saturday night and I’m still at work..
How sad….
Erica; “I guess it depends on your level of pretense”
:-))
panos, I’m from Iowa. You don’t wanna see our strippers.
OK, now off to shoot.
… sorry … I meant Wiskonsin..
:))))
( I’m scared of the word “exotic” now..:))
Panos,
there is nothing wrong with shooting “exotic” people. Why do you bring it up as a criticism?
music inspiration
this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKd06s1LNik&feature=fvst
for this
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jinju/sets/72157617629790075/show
Rafal..
No .. No problem at all..
I love Philip Blenkishop..
All of his work is “exotic”…
style…
But , Philip doesn’t remind me of a
western missionary western style
expedition…
It was a one man’s show…
No slaves and no elephants to carry
the cameras …:)
again nothing wrong with the “exotic”
part of the equation..
It’s the Christopher Columbus style I detest..( same as the tourist style )
:)))
… speaking of Philip …
Maybe no elephants but there is a
Boa-serpent somewhere involved..
Hmmm.. I could be wrong..
Maybe the snake was carrying his M6..
Laughing…:)
Rafal..
I don’t think you were talking to me specifically, but I want to answer your thought that “I dont understand the need to drag work down by comparing, more often than not negatively, work shown here to work by more famous people.”
I too feel it isn’t worthwhile to lightly compare work shown here to that of more established/known photographers, but I do think it is valid to discuss when work either successfully continues in a lineage, or when it appears to be derivative to the point of loss of it’s own voice..a great many photographers do try to emulate their favorite photographers, and it can be done with personal voice or with parroting..
…………….. about comparison with others I try never to do that. I really feel that each person who loves their craft brings their own person, personality into the photographs. After all it’s about what you see, feel and want to communicate.
A real creator never wastes time
searching, immitating, reading, collecting books,
discussing.. comparing…
These are for the critics that have
mucho time in their hands..
not for the ones that actually produce..
In fact the less time u spend checking
others work the more original u can be..
I vote for voluntary “ignorance”..
In other words.. I don’t wanna know..
I choose not to..
Who cares if G.Winogrand photographed
Venice before…Go do it yourself..:)
Who has time for that?
( unless you are a critic.. Then yes..
Do it.. Compare them..)
1) choose an EXOTIC location…
2) get the Largest Format Available..
3) act like u “saving” someones heritage..
4) Ask Wikipedia for historic details
5) let the indigenous helpers carry your
heavy shit.. Tripods etc..
6) shoot everything in 3 days max..
7) go back to NY and call Natgeo…
and there u have it.. Another legend is born..
8) do an exhibition in the heart of Manhattan
and pretend u r sending the profits to
the starving African or Kazakh children…
——————————
whats new, Cynic Panos?..:-)))))
Herve..:)
laughing..
U asking the wrong person..
To know what’s new demands to know what’s “old”..
And I’m the least expected person to know
what’s new or old or classic or intellectual
or this or that…
I’m not a historian , I don’t look back..
I only know what’s in my flashcard..
But feel free to ask Erica or Cathy..
They know all that stuff…
Laughing
Anyone home with PBS and Bill Moyers Journal, they are about to run a bit on “photographic artist Chris Jordan, whose work explores consumerism.”
http://www.chrisjordan.com
Imants, insulting someone must be done in front of their face, otherwise, it’ s worth nothing…
Herve I am just dishing out what you do to others and seeing how you cope ………….. evidently not very wel. I thought it would touch your ego, better you go out and do some repair work on yourself.
what Imants just said above is beautiful to my ears..and it is inspiration both to see beyond the imitable surface and to hold dear that which makes our loving efforts our own..
Herve now you can sling mud at me as well as Bob, Lisa just to name a couple
clearly i missed something..too late to figure out what.
in the morning light will you all shine sweetly? I will have a full day of shooting (job, not personal) and it will be a finer morning if this house is bright..
night all
2 days without shooting. i think it’s okay. it’s especially fine to long for a photo when your camera is home, if you ignore the pain of it.
Imants, is there some reason why you decided to come in here with guns blazing trying to tear Herve down? Hey man, if you don’t like what he says just don’t read his posts.
Patricia
there’s really no reason to talk to me…
all i am doing is holding up a mirror
what do you see?
Patricia ……. just evening out the equation, remember you too are not required to read this
I HAVE NEWS…good news!!!
I found a rare edition of a 1924 bottle of ouzo.
I am gonna open it right now and I am gonna share it with all of you.
I love all your postings BURNIANS!!! You are music to my ears ( I have big one’s)
and I know that where is smoke there is fire…hihi…that means we are on FIRE
and this ouzo is a “nasty” one…
Well, Herve is gonna drink with Imants and they will say VIVA …but only,
when they will be ready to accept…that life is hard enough…tralalala
WHY ARE WE MAKING THIS HARDER???
I don’t know… what… I am talking about…it might be the ouzo or maybe the meatballs
I Skyped Lisa and BobB and other BURNIANS and I have a message:
” When the moon will be full, then we shall overcome all our differences ,cause we are ALL ONE”
P.S blame the ouzo or my BURNing brain cells…
COME OUT CYNICS, wherever you are…”pretentious-less”
LOVE YOU , LOVE ME, LOVE and PEACE…don’t shoot the messager…xexe
Your dyslexic Civilian…KATIEE…Gracie has a mirror
OUR Patricia …I wish I can help you with the book but I can barely write a decent posting…
Civi, you are a dear!!! Whatever would we do/be without you??? Don’t worry about the text; it’s coming along fine. And another dear reader of Burn, Ciara–a journalist & editor in the UK–has emailed and offered to go over my draft when I’m ready. Sweet, huh! Ah yes, Burnians are one big loving family…
And now to sleep for this U.S. Eastern Time Zone person. Night night all.
Patricia
ok, I have to admit…
I didn’t skype anyone
Happy now? I just wanted to feel like Mr.Harvey when he skypes all of you…
XEXE !!!
COME ON …where is the music?
can we sing together ? can we make a BURNphoto album???
DavidB has a good collection of some BURNIANS…xexe
VIVA . I can’t really focus …
GOODNIGHT OUR PATRICIA !!!
May the text for your book come alive during the night…when the fairies of love meet with your photos
viva!!!
Civi;
Pouring oil on unsettled bodies of water again? Good on you. I can’t match a 1924 bottle of ouzo, so a coffee will have to do for me I’m afraid!
Here’s some music; 2 from NZ (Bic Runga)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w28ZREQe3_Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwIyvgPpov0
Cheers
And to keep things fair, 2 from our Aussie cousins over across the ditch…
The Waifs;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_emz0o638PQ
Missy Higgins;
Bic Runga???
You BURNIANS are amazing!!!
OLIVE OIL …ROSS NOLLY…can you make extra coffee for me…I will need it ASAP after I am done with
this “devil”…
DRIVE me and swaaaaaaaaaaaa
oime…I love this place…I wanna smash your faces and squeeze you alllll
maybe I should say… smush your faces… something like that
where are u AKAKY ???
wtfrudrnknACMA?
“I wanna smash your faces”
How’s this then? :-) They’re still magic even after all these years…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXE67Q02ud0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQkActP-isE
There you go Panos, I held the fort for you. The cheque’s in the mail I hope? :-)
I now hand you over to our regular programme and go back to my coffee!
WTFAUTA, PANOS?
* why true friends are usually true angels?
WTF, B :)))
We The Future, BURNIANS …gotcha …
Drinks are on ANTON, tonight…No Need to Text me…
Love
Imants, please, stop being childish. Bob and Lisa are big people, they need no one to talk for themselves, if they wish to.
I have no idea why you take this all so seriously and personal, and hold grudges towards someone who never attacked or insulted you, and whom you have never met.
Just relax, my friend, and have a great week-end.
.Don’t presume that I am your friend nor am I interested to be your friend, so learn not to shoot your mouth off.,I doubt if I would lose any sleep over what transpires here.
Good morning everyone,
I just updated my blog with a few new posts tonight,
would anyone mind commenting on the photography please?
http://www.jasonhouge.com/Blog.html
Guys,
This place have great spirit, please keep it high. it’s worth.
Jason..
I’ll do it soonest..
Another day at work.. Till 9pm..
Saturday bloody Saturday…:(
haik???
R u working mañana ?
But Jason pretty quick..
I dig your blog although I hate
all strobes at all times..
:)
If you gotta work…
Ha ha…
Jim u just made my day..
:)))
JASONH,
are you ready to submit???
Your website is “clear”…you are a BURNIAN!!!
ROSSY,
Your coffee was good…no surprises :)))
JIM you are full of Surprises …what not to love!!!
You made PANOS bloody Saturday good …ouaouoooo…
I am gobsmacked …
GOODMORNING BURNIANS or I should say GOODNIGHT..
Has this one been posted here yet? Whatever you do, DON’T turn on the sound; it will make you puke. But the images made me laugh out loud. We need Tor Capa on this video ;=)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_tRA-FC_Vc&feature=fvw
Patricia
Hi friends, do any of you burnians live in Cardiff (Wales) or Kiew (Ukraine)??
Hahaha I have the same reaction with Lemons… Eyes close and I shake… Whats funny is the kids keep putting them in their mouths.
This one is really funny too
Up to speed, Jason, and “telling it like it is”, good work in just a few days, Jason. I hope you get featured on BURN soon.
“A real creator never wastes time
searching, immitating, reading, collecting books,
discussing.. comparing…
These are for the critics that have
mucho time in their hands..”
panos s 2009..
AND.. who have money.. buy work.. commission work.. judge competitions..
panos is right – just take photos.. work opportunities.. enjoy your shutter finger.. follow what interests you..
leave the rest for.. the rest..
i promise not to swagger and say ‘i told you so’,
when in 10 years time there is a lack of photography for stress and words written here…
WHATS NOT TO LOVE?
and civilian.. i have a collection.. of little animals.. i am a dinasaur..
i love polar bears.. and chimps..
pass over that foul smelling brew.. a thimble of which will make us all blind..
i’ll have a taste and pass it on.
ANDREA – jon k is in cardiff i believe..
he organizes photo print sale shows and stooppid stuff like dat.
he posted not long ago.. but i cannot remember how to spell his last name.. 3rd wine, one whisky and whatever civilian is pouring, ya see.
so i cannot write it without embarrassing myself.. although he posts under JKARonnaaasomething now.
welcome
david.
Joni Karanka thrives in Cardiff..
David Bowie..
Love your new hometown…
Lucky u
Ah, Cardiff…..What’s not to love…. (courtesy of Maciej, Joni’s good friend over there)
http://www.pbase.com/maciekda/image/43449051
Thank you Herve and Civil,
There’s no rest for me! Making some coffee and I’m off to find more topics to shoot.
But first, a question about storytelling.
I’ve seen this done both ways, but which is “better” or seems to work best for you?
Shoot a bunch of photos and find a story in them (what I’ve done in the past and can just be nothing more than a bunch of photos)
or
Devise a story. Shoot with that story in mind.
The problem I often run into is, with so much occuring around me, I get caught up in just shooting. I don’t see everything then. And going in with some expectation – to shoot a photo essay – something entirely different often happens that was totally unexpected. Again, losing sight of the story because it’s not playing out the way I had expected, or perhaps my thinking is too concrete?
How do all of you create stories? especially in situations that are fluid and ever changing, or moving unexpectedly in another direction.
I see with some essays there appears to be no beginning middle or end. it feels like a collection loosely tied to a central idea.
What methods do all of you use?
Herve, Lets hope they were married already… Thats a great moment
Jason:)
I go with the method número uno..
I let the subconcious to tell me what to do or shoot..
I never choose the subject..
The subject chooses me..
Always…:)
Jason, I prefer to work a story consciously. Yes, it might start with my taking a few shots in a random fashion but as soon as I see “something” there, I’ll just work it as long as I can. It’s not unusual for me to work a project for a year, and in 2008-9 I worked two topics simultaneously. One will hopefully be pusblished as a book and the other was exhibited last spring in a solo show at a local gallery.
I find that the longer I stay with a project, the deeper I go. And I love that. It’s the difference between working vertically and horizontally. I’m all about the vertical approach but that’s not for everyone. Martin Parr is a good example of taking the horizontal path and working it very well indeed.
However, even when I’m working a project I’m also taking random shots just for the fun of it. But I stay pretty focused on my project. I really like to finish what I begin.
Good question, Jason.
Patricia
… and I try to avoid anything “exotic”..:)
when I catch myself acting like an activist
or trying to save someone elses life.. then..
then I know I’m bullshiting and I know I’m a lier trying
to impress myself and others..
Ha ha…
ahah, Jason. yes, soon, as they already have a witness in the window! :-)
I have never done a story, Jason, or only pretending to. When and if the time comes, I will put a lot of preparation in it. You know: access, checking/devising locations, schedules, and write down a lot of stuff. Then as it develops, regularly assess the work done during the day or week, where are the missing links and etc… This would create a good and serious M. O. for advancing the story, and keeping in check the old shooting habits, like trigger-happy shooting.
But do not question entirely your way of shooting, and where your eyes wander, warts and all. Besides all the mistakes and trials, frustrations and “a-peu-pres” it is bound to deliver, it’s the only place where your photography, not that of anyone else, resides. IMO.
Oh, also: I love that quote someone came up with a while ago: better sorry than safe!
….and… Laughing…
I can’t stand the vertical approach..
It’s all horizontal for me…
I love movies.. I like the wide
cinema view.. And a rangefinder let me have it
my way.. For some reason when I try
vertical I have a feeling that I’m
viewing a world through a periscope..
Weird…:)
Herve = “Oh, also: I love that quote someone came up with a while ago: better sorry than safe!”
That appears to be a translation of It’s easier to ask for forgiveness than to ask for permission.
Panos, were you hugged too much as a kid? :)
Thank you all for your input. anyone else? I know it’s the weekend and people are out doing stuff…
Patricia, how do you create your story? Is it something you have a feeling you know the direction you want from the beginning? What if it doesn’t move that way? how do you adjust?
I can’t stand the vertical approach..
It’s all horizontal for me…
————————
always talking about sex, panos! :-)
Seriously, I agree. Horizontal is life, it’s the “play” and “rec” button, vertical is more like the “pause” one (sometimes to take superb portraits. Keep in your arsenal at all times!).
Jason..:)
I did get enough hugs..
( I admit I have some serious mommy issues..)
but I get more hugs now as an adult than I did as a child..:)))
likes it…:)
Herve…:))
yes.. Horizontal..
and yes.. All about sex…
I prefer being an adult…
Hugs-wise…:)))
but seriously…
I don’t think it’s a coincidence
that 110% of the movies are wide
horizontal format… It’s “natural”..
more eye friendly…
Now I took it one step further..
Since I gave up the slr mirror cameras
two years ago I started caring less and less
about composition… I only center the
subject and I totally ignore everything else..
Vignaitte is my best friend now…:)))
Uhm… I think…
What Patricia meant was…
Now I could be wrong…
but,
She meant vertical as in go as deep as one can go into a story and come out with substance
or
Horizontal means take a wide scoop off the top of a topic for a shorter time frame and come out with a story…
I don’t think she was referring to camera orientation.
Or, maybe she was.
But, guys, ever publish on a book cover or mag cover? those are all vertical unless you have a landscape book, but thats more specialized.
Panos, ever try a square frame? perhaps shooting with a Holga – tons of vignette. Mamiya also has old rangefinder cameras that are square… just a thought.
Hello all….
my oh my oh my…..I leave for a week or so, with 90+ pages of comments…and come back to find we’ve topped the 100 page mark with nary a blink….
JIM:
About your project of showing the energy in empty spaces….I seem to remember someone doing something similar via music….I think it was Moby, perhaps with the “Hotel” CD? Probably not your style music, but it may be worth a listen just to get a musical perspective on the same concept….I can’t remember where I read about it, but will see if I can find it….
BOB:
Nice to see you here again, amigo.
CIVI:
always a warm fuzzy feeling to see one is missed, or at least that an absence is noted…..for this I will share with you many ouzo shots someday when we are all united in the same physical space…and you of course know that greece is one place I truly, truly want to visit someday, being 1/2 greek and not having seen that place just feels wrong….
GRACIE:
All good – no, the best! – reasons to be here, and I too would like to read your words as well as see your images….please email me and perhaps we can trade notes on capturing those moods….it is something I am trying to do with the images I try and capture when traveling….my email is on my link…..
good light, all
A.
Jason.:)
verical is NOT “wrong” by any means..
Most mags prefer that coz it’s easier for
the lay out…
I wasn’t talking about pay jobs though…
I was talking about my subconcious … Which
can only “see” in a horizontal way..
in a “movie” way..
( movie.. again.. I think LA and Hollywood severely
damaged my subconcious)
laughing…:)
andrew, checked Hotel out and you got it just right on the concept. I really like the album. Downloading it now from Itunes. I’ll have to look at more of Moby’s stuff.
Thanks for the heads up.
JIM:
Cool! Even better that you like the album…..
And everyone should be aware, Moby has a site where you can download his music (both some released and lots of unreleased) for use with both commercial and non-commercial efforts, for no fee….you just have to register and tell him how you are using a particular piece, and perhaps in some cases (the released things, I think) give him a credit line….
Jim – Moby is fantastic.
also try this out if you haven’t discovered it http://www.pandora.com it’s a free internet radio. You pick a seed song to make a station from it and you can control what is played by giving music thumbs up and down, skipping past, adding more artists to diversify your station more. add more stations.. I let it run most of the day.
It’s downloadable for the iPhone (which BTW, Panos, I had one the first week they were sold in 2007) I bought it for the same reason DAH likes his. I could put my whole portfolio on it + tons and TONS of photos on it, music, APPS are now my best friends. Nothing like being able to keep up on email no mater where you are, what time it is, keeping track of expenses, checking the aurora forecast, weather, news, coords for a remote location, etc etc. :) and of course – the camera
Also – if anyone has it and uses it – Pandora has a widget for the the Windows Vista sidebar. might even work on Windows 7…
Don’t have an Iphone but do have an Ipod Touch. I’ll check it out.
Andrew, thats a new thing for Moby, I think. About three years ago I was working on a movie short with a local film crew and we needed a song for a driving scene. We would have used Moby – since it’s what we listened to the most, but didn’t want to mess with getting the clearance (it wasn’t available on his site at that time) So instead I used FL studios 6 to make up a piece.. not as awesome as Moby, but it fit in.
You can get it for the touch too! just need WIFI to play anything of course.
Hmm, can’t find the article that talks about the album….the wikipedia entry has a bit about it being about only hotels, but I specifically remember him being qouted (or writing) that it was about all large, commonly public spaces….airports, hotels, conference centers, etc…..how the architecture is so energizing when full of people, and so different when they are empty.
Well, I already have Pandora on my computers, but would be nice on the touch. I have wifi at home and at work, so no problem.
@jason – Pandora rocks. Slacker is a similar program for the iPhone, but I don’t like it as well as Pandora.
and since we drifted to iPhone apps, if anyone is an NPR junkie, the NPR Addict program is free and very cool – let’s you pick out and then stream NPR interviews and shows.
oh, and the site for free moby music is mobygratis.com
Jason:)
pandora works perfect on windows7
Cool. Got the app installed on the Iphone and the Moby channel running. Thanks!
Or, rather the Touch. No interest in the Iphone. I like my Quickfire better as a phone.
Try pornhub for the iPhone..
It rocks:))
Jason;
I too prefer horizontal format over vertical (for “people pics”). Why? I don’t know, it just “feels” more natural for me. But having said that I’m enjoying using square format with the Holga.
It’s a pity that there is not a “square mode” with crop lines in the viewfinder in modern digi’s. I find that if I am specifically “thinking square” I see different pics. A square viewfinder makes all the difference!
I’ve decided to buy another Holga and take a week off to hit the road to solely shoot my youth project with the 2 Holgas. I’m going to leave the digi at home and see what eventuates.
I haven’t shot anything for the project for about three weeks because I had to get some paying work out of the way. Back into it again this weekend. I found that I was becoming a bit obsessed with the project and wasn’t getting enough paying work done, so had to give it a break for a few weeks…
Cheers
Ross, a youth project – what is your direction? I think you just sparked something in me. I’m going to start on an autobiography – photographicly. This will require lots of time and travel. Sounds perfect. hahaha gives me an excuse to get back to Oregon where I was born. I haven’t been there since I was a baby.
Jason;
Here’s the link it also explains it. It’s a VERY loose edit at the moment. I’m just shooting and seeing wherever it leads.. The thing I really enjoy about it is that it is a positive project and I can shoot it anywhere; no expensive logistical problems!
http://www.lightstalkers.org/galleries/contact_sheet/18440
very cool, I see some different styles and techniques being applied. I’d like to see how to Holga looks. My girlfriend is shooting an essay on living in a trailer home – her parents divorced, mother lost the house, living in a trailer home – although not “mobile” like they were once considered, these cheap houses last a while and fall apart, more like disposable housing. better than a cardboard box, not as good as a home with a foundation.
She shoots solely film, mainly Holga, Polaroid 600, or 35mm the look is unique and has a different perspective. The look of the photos alter the mood of the photo, alters the content, the perception.
I’ve only started using the Holga. I can only shoot about a roll a week due to the cost of film, processing, scanning etc.
Plus I made a few stupid mistakes with the first roll or two; Shooting 645 when meant to be 6×6, shooting 6×6 when counter set to 645, getting used to what iso film in what light conditions etc. I’m getting some film scanned now, but will buy a scanner when I decide I’m happy the way things are turning out.
However I do want to use it for slow-synch in the clubs, which will be interesting! I mainly decided to try the Holga for portraits of the kids and for work at the skate park.
The more I use square format, the more I like it.
I guess I confused the issue when I talked about taking a vertical as opposed to a horizontal approach with my photo projects. Thanks, Jason, for getting what I was trying to say. I was not talking about camera orientation or format but about a particular way of exploring a topic. Actually, every one of my photos in Falling Into Place is horizontal format. I consciously chose that orientation knowing I was shooting for a book and I’ve always seen my book in landscape format.
To my way of thinking a vertical approach means one stays pretty much in one spot or with one person or idea and digs as deeply into that as possible, hopefully exposing layer after layer of meaning. In Falling Into Place that meant I stayed with my day-to-day life, and more specifically, focused on the quiet, solitary aspects of my life. I mean I could have focused on the many activities and groups with whom I’m involved, but I didn’t. For example I could have taken photos of me dancing with all the young people at the Detroit Electronic Music Festival, or in my women’s singing circle every month, or in Brooklyn at DAH’s loft workshop slideshow/fiesta in October or in Charlottesville at Look3 in June. Instead, the only people pictured besides me are my husband Ed and Matt, my trainer at the gym. The longer I stayed with the project, the more focused my eye became.
And to answer your other question, Jason, I didn’t go into this project knowing what mood I wanted to create: that developed over time. And I have to thank DAH for picking up on the feeling tone before I did and rigorously editing out anything that took away from that tone. I’d bring lots of different shots to him and he’d zero in on the few that fit the mood that was already being set. It took me a long time to catch on to what he was seeing, but now I do.
Hope this is more clear. Again, thanks for bringing up a great subject.
Patricia
Patricia;
As for approach, horizontal for me at the moment too! Like you say, it depends on your subject and the way you want to approach it too. I like the way things can develop into new directions you could never have thought of. I suppose subconciously everyone knows what will work well for them and their subject.
How’s the book text going?
Patricia, Thank you! Very insightful answer I’m glad I asked! How was the At home workshop? How did you feel coming in, how did you feel coming out? what changed? did any change occur? How was NYC? Did you try to blend in or stand out? look natural? the biggest city I’ve lived in was St. Louis, MO. I’ve been to Chicago and Milwaukee more than a few times as well… I don’t know where anything is, or where the people are in either place. I kept to myself mostly at those times. How did you go find the action?
Now just wait a second, I just asked you where to find action in a “city that never sleeps” People must be everywhere all the time doing things. a city so big it has 5 counties (boroughs) within it. How do you find your self in such an enormous foreign place?
Saturday night…working…not shooting…not drinking…sad.
Jason, I wasn’t in DAH’s loft workshop in October, but just drove into town for the post-workshop slideshow/fiesta on Friday night. David then let me sit in on the final day of the workshop on Saturday but that was not shooting, merely listening to his and French filmmaker/photographer Eric Valli’s discussions of all things photographic. You might find my photo galleries from that weekend fun to look at. The URL is
http://www.pbase.com/windchimewalker/brooklyn1
The only workshop I’ve ever taken wih DAH was the one he and James Natchwey gave at LOOK3 in Charlottesville, VA in June. Utterly transformative experience.
To see the students’ essays from his 2008 loft workshops, go to David’s website and click on “movies.” There’s some great work there. Is this something you’re contemplating doing?
Patricia
Ross, thanks for asking about the book text. I now have a first draft but that is just a start. On Thursday I’ll be going to a 4-day writers retreat where I expect to work hard and receive helpful feedback. All in good time…
Patricia
Bob Black, In your comments on John Delaney’s Portraits of Men and Eagles, you say “The interior portraits are timeless, in that they are … not only connected to the history of portraiture … but are absolutely OF THIS TIME as well.”
I wonder what you mean by “of this time.” I accept the truth that these pictures were taken in recent times but there is no visual evidence in those pictures that situates them in the present. Those pictures could have been taken 100 years ago (or at least at the time Irving Penn was shooting) and there is nothing in the pictures to prove otherwise. Perhaps there is something I can’t see, some telltale technicality that I can’t discern.
Do you mean something else? How are they “of this time”? I don’t get it.
(This is not a criticism of the work in anyway. I merely question or don’t understand Bob’s point and am asking for clarification.)
Ross
I do love the square. My first serious camera was a Rolleicord Vb, purchased with my summer job earnings while still in high school in the sixties. I still have it although it has not seen film for years.
Gordon;
I’ve been thinking about picking up a TLR, but the extra scanning etc would be a pain. That’s why I wish there were square frame lines “mode” in a modern digi, so that you could “see” square and it would capture the image in square format too.
Patricia; I’m pleased you’re making headway on the text, I’m sure you’ll get it just right! My mother still asks how your project is going, she loved the Burn essay!
Hi Andrea :)))
no worries…i’ll try best to answer, describe what i’d meant about the nature of time(lessness + of this)…but first a quick diversion….please forgive me any rambling (normal) or inaccuracies of language as i’ve just turned off the computer after being silent the entire day….and just finished watching Charlie Kaufman’s “Synecdoche, New York (a must viewing)…
the part of the diversion: as is my nature, im a solipsitic guy, and tend to see or, better, feel everything through a personal prisim and John’s work hit a very rich and personal cord. 3 weeks ago, i just finished reading Platonov’s stories and the centerpiece of the collection is Dzhan. If anyone is interested in reading Platonov (a must), here is a link that describes that story:
http://www.litencyc.com/php/sworks.php?rec=true&UID=14442
the story itself is about time and the yearning for meaning, of life and of identity and one’s identity to his/her ‘people’…it also coincidentally happens to take place in Central Asia…and is a strange and remarkably beautiful fable…written in the 30’s, it rings profound of our moment still, like the best of all art, which is not about the past or future or present, but always is about all simultaneously…art (in whatever form) that looks or feels dated to me always seems stuck in it’s appearance and identity: you reallly know when something is only of a moment (think of some fashion stuff, or haircuts, my own hideous haircuts for example ;)) )….john’s work clearly is connected to the ‘past’ and in many senses is an homage to a certain type of photography (both in look and craft), as well as a certain type of photographic ‘philosophy’ linked to both an aesthetic and belief. There is much of that aesthetic and belief that rings hollow or false to me (inspection of the brute, anthropological detailing of others/societies different from one’s own as some kind of insight into culture), but there is also work that ‘makes sense’ to me as it not only offers a vision of ‘others’ but also of the self, our self.
Work that celebrates and questions those ideas ring particularly well to me. I guess that is why so much of old photographic techniques, cameras, printing processes seem to be in favor now, or why cameras such as Holgas, Diana’s and Lomos (all of which i use as well) and film seem to make increasingly strong reactions in people, not from nostalgia (in the bad way) but nostalgia (sweet loss) in the good way. When we feel and understand the connection to the past keenly and realize our self there, as well as now, we’re humbled and, at least for me, inspired by our connection to that. I also felt the work comes from a place of craft, since john is a Master printer and that ‘feels’ true here too….that is those applications and techniques still have validity and power to surprise and compel….
much that is often new, feels to me very very thin…and i dont say that as a luddite, for both my heart and my work is not at all concerned with preserving rules (none of which i believe in as a photographer), but in the celebration. Sometimes things which look/feel old, resonate with our experience of life lived now….there are markers in the images that speak of now…including that mad-crazy portrait with the motorcyle…but it wasn’t the ‘look’ that spoke to me of ‘now’ but the feelings that the images and narrative evoked….somehow the lone hunter perched on that outcrop felt the same as last night, after shooting all night, and i sat down by Lake Ontario, alone, camera bag, and looked out over the black night….and that i wanted to try (but failed) to make the point that while the pictures have that look of a past photographic principle, in truth, that was the least appealing aspect to me, for it was the story inside those pictures, the people’s lives and the way john photographed, that made this story and their story so incredibly personal to me….
sometimes i look at some work now (be it digital or film) and thing: that is so 2009/8/7/6 etc, and in fact struggle with that a great deal with my own work, which seems to get worse and more sloppy and more solipstic each new project….and that because of the time John spent with the people and the listening he did, actually seemed much more about now, the world around us, as we negotiate for meaning within our lives, our countries, borders etc…..
and than there is Synecdoche NY, which is a film about the nature of time and knowing/not-knowing….and that paradoxically, time is not so much about what it is then about what we feel, or believe it is….in other words (christ, am i making a mess of this): we feel ourselves continually of the past and in the present and both of that gives the architecture (if even a warehouse) to our lives….
it’s my stupid Doppelgänger….being a photographer who is also a writer and a writer who also photographs….both fucking each other up….and i am afraid sometimes i, in trying to celebrate and express my love for something wordless, fuck up in my expression…i’m a lousy editor of my own work and comments ;))))))….
time is of us….past, present, future: proust’s overture ;))))))
forgive me if i cheat, and quote from the movie
“Millicent Weems: What was once before you – an exciting, mysterious future – is now behind you. Lived; understood; disappointing. You realize you are not special. You have struggled into existence, and are now slipping silently out of it. This is everyone’s experience. Every single one. The specifics hardly matter. Everyone’s everyone. So you are Adele, Hazel, Claire, Olive. You are Ellen. All her meager sadnesses are yours; all her loneliness; the gray, straw-like hair; her red raw hands. It’s yours. It is time for you to understand this.
Millicent Weems: Walk.
Millicent Weems: As the people who adore you stop adoring you; as they die; as they move on; as you shed them; as you shed your beauty; your youth; as the world forgets you; as you recognize your transience; as you begin to lose your characteristics one by one; as you learn there is no-one watching you, and there never was, you think only about driving – not coming from any place; not arriving any place. Just driving, counting off time. Now you are here, at 7:43. Now you are here, at 7:44. Now you are…
Millicent Weems: Gone. ”
hope that makes sense…
thanks so much…i hope i didnt give anyone too big of a headache….
i am such a fucking windbag….i appreciate the question…
hugs
running
bob
@panos,
you working too hard on the weekends only makes the weeknight music even better.
@patricia,
sent you luvnotes and windy sails for your bookmaking way back when that may have been buried under some stones… but you got the thoughts now. and if you dont get on it lady, you might get the pointy boot ;)
@katie,
missing you tons. no smidgens or smudgens of moonlight or chocolate cheesecake anywhere around here now since youve gone. hows the baby?
@civi,
luvs, got me some rotten cheese for DAH but he wouldnt spill the beans as to who you were…
@ross and jason,
starting on the holga route too, but just looking, not much time for shooting now looking at holga?? geez.. gotta tighten the screws round my neck here.
@andrew b,
feel the same way – fuzzydoodoos — about being remembered. hows the ranchsprinkled popcorn and (geez) your diet coke. too shy yet about sharing pictures… been reading on depth of field at least i know what that is for about a year now so i think im onto sumthn
@jim,
got sidetracked a bit there re: our conversation about empty spaces, got you some suggestions way back when… your red playground with the swing caught me off guard, i wanted to write about it but a knife kept on getting into my head… i had to eat some mocha fudge ice cream to keep that gory piece away and unspoken. well, all this talk of i-touch and aps means im more a dino than you would ever claim you are.
@davidb,
luvs always to the baby… little project i told is put on hold. no time. (sigh) no time.
@bobblack and joe,
do come back. i do miss your musings.
@wendy,
likewise. you know what i mean.
@erica,
never thanked you for your notes. ive kept them all. thank you.
@dah (and anton),
thanks for burn. thanks for the encouragement also on the side. even though yes, it’s been spoken before and many times, anybody can be a photographer now… we must not forget there are reasons why anyone picks up a camera. or MUST pick up a camera. well, it is like, being afraid, really afraid to go into the heart of a tornado, driving a red pick up truck, and all you have is your so-called puny camera, and how comfortable it feels to just silently pat it on the head while you’re roaring in the heart.
@all,
good moonlight tonight.
zzzzzzz
Ross – There are companies that will custom etch the ground glass on modern digital cameras. A freind of mine was going to have just that done – have the 8×10 aspect etched and a square. Then in Photoshop you simply use the crop tool and set it’s settings to a square and tada it’s all good.
Are you outside the US?
I didn’t know this service existed until about 3 months ago. I can find out who was going to have it done and perhaps forward you the information if you like.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0Qwya7Xpo0&feature=related
;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7T88NfxVJdc
The way I am
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UA8A7N-i4u8
TIRED
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uguUTOenjxg
“Crown Royal”
All those songs STOLEN from “her” ipod…
Special Edition of the Late Night Show tonite…:))))))))
Songs “stolen” from a real woman’s ipod…
Anyway… i hope y’all doing ok and a little R&B wont hurt you…
Again,
our topic tonight is:
“what women like to listen to their ipod when YOU are NOT there…:)”
or
All the songs a man should know about to get laid….( laughing )…
brother panos,
would it ever cross your mind,
these songs are Gracie and Freda sing alikes?
thx
Jason; Yes, live in New Zealand a loooong way from the US :-)
so ross,
what did you do to your holga?
Gracie; Just learning not to make stupid mistakes with it! Not really sure what you meant?
Gracie…:)
U started it All tonite..
i was off but…
but “someone” is playing the “right” music…
and u know…
u have the power to change things…
How can anyone resist you?
Lucky you!
Panos, have you seen this one before?
ross,
yknow. modified holga.
i think that is my medium. vignetting like a dream. washed out like you want to wake up from a nightmare.
still these pictures i want to write about… i think they’re coming.
brother p,
your music tonite has made me feel better. yes, yes r&b tonite.
the world is round, round and round it goes, no matter how angry we are, there is still a possibility, even minuscule, that we can still sleep soundly. thanks mr. dj
Ross.. nope!
but i have a crush on natalie…:)
she is using a Leica… look here:
Gracie;
Only the insulation tape mod! To keep the back on when using the strap :-) I’m finding myself more inspired when using the holga than the D300 for some reason.
I was driving back from a job the other day and stopped at a dairy (called a corner store in the US I suppose) that had a really creepy manequin out front “welcoming” people to the shop… Can’t wait till the Holga negs come back!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DPD7XdE73EM
Jill Scott feat Common – 8 minutes till sunrise
Panos; If you have a crush on her then I’m afraid it’s pistols at 10 paces at dawn :-)
I love her work and words. I was fortunate in that she gave me 3 years gratis rights to use “Break Your Heart” for my Timor AV presentation, quite a buzz!
I love this one too…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7_ZWpOm4TQ&feature=related
EARTHQUAKES IN LOS ANGELES…
more info above…
( im just kiddin’… relax… we ok:)))))))))))
no kiddin panos
ross, “creepy manequin out front “welcoming” people to the shop”
im just wondrin if u were daydreamin bout LA. :)
gnite you both.
zzzz
India.Arie – Ready For Love
12:00 am in LA..
maybe i should… just go!
big hug
I love India Arie. “Brown Skin” has got to be one of the most erotic songs ever.
“well, all this talk of i-touch and aps means im more a dino than you would ever claim you are.”
Gracie, I’m a low tech guy stuck in a high tech world. ;)
My office:
http://www.39thframe.com/myoffice.jpg
ANDREA
Penn is still with us, bringing new bodies of work to the world..big exhibit in 2005 of recent work called Underfoot.
one of the towering photographers on the planet and one of my personal favorites, a photographer whose work and life-philosophy has served as an inspiration for a long time….and having known lived close to buffalo and with a friend there, his work resonates even more keenly….a photographer who deserves to be more well known….but…score his books if u can…
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/09/arts/design/09kenn.html?ref=design
part of the article…
http://lens.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/07/showcase-milton-rogovin/
“I am a fucking windbag”
Dear Bob, you sure are. :-)
But I don’t mind.
I do understand what you were on about. I’ll say it in a few words…
“of the present” I interpret this as including the assumption “for me,” Ie for you.
I’ve no problem with the subjective interpretation of those pictures being of the present time for you. I only wanted to clear that up in case you meant something else, because I’ve been on about time particularly about the present in photographs lately and no one seemed to get it, except perhaps Erica. But that’s another story.
Since I’m back to John Delaney’s pictures again. I thought it interesting how some of the portraits had that peculiar stiffness that was part of practically all portraits taken a long time ago, from the time when an exposure was made in a few seconds rather than a fraction of a few seconds and people had to hold very still.
Thanks for your long reply. I forgot to add.
Cheers emcd.
Thanks for the link, Bob. Great photos.
jim,
the only two things i notice in your workspace picture:
1) youve got too many apps on your computer
2) you are in dire need of a magnetic wall.
send me link to your empty spaces maybe i can take a peek for prompts
pricklyfinger2007ATgmail
bob
thanks for the link.
ill keep the name in mind just in case, i can score on the books.
its a shame what he went through, but a triumph to find something stronger lifting up others above the shame.
Jim :))
my pleasure…he had an extraordinary difficult life, is a truly real humble man, dedicated to showing his neighborhood and the people there…he’s one of my heros too…by the way the pic of your office looks someting like bladerunner ;))))…or the Matrix…wild stuff :))
Gracie :))))…if u can score one of the books, they are just amazing…i hate to say ‘ahead of his time’ ’cause that sounds so pretentious, but he really was a visionary…and because he really cared about people above all else…and those pictures reflect that, as does his life…
cheers yall
b
Andrea :))))…time is the heart of photography, just as it is our lives, which is why i switched from painting to picture taking and the fact that, as a medium, it forced me to get involved with people (unlike writing which seems sometimes overly narcissistic and solitary, for example most of my long comments ;)) )…
I am sorry i’ve missed your thoughts about time…i havent had a lot of time to check out burn (knee deep in a project), so if you wish to share/talk, i’d be more than happy to do that…
Philip Larkin wrote that love is what remains of us when we are gone, and for me, while we are here, time is what vessels that ache of love and threaded connection…time, like us, is of us….just as after we die, we continue to live within the bones and body and lives of our children, so too time is never really deleted, and photography, rather than about truth, is about that mechanism….but, i’d love to see what you were talking about that others didn’t pick up on….sorry i’ve been absent….u can always drop me a line too…
running, to watch Dryer’s Vampyre :))…
cheers
b
Andrea
a thought, one that arose thinking about Penn and also about your comment about images that have a certain feel because they required long exposures: It occurs to me that certain people, certain photographers, have an “older” way about their sensibilities, and it doesn’t matter if they photographed 50 years ago or in 10 years from now, elements of what you may think of as the past are woven in to their being and therefor to their expression. I think of myself as one of these people, maybe Delaney is one too..it isn’t about trying to make something look like things looked in the past, rather it comes forth from a natural vocabulary.
Bob,
I don’t think you want to see the discussion I had elsewhere (not on burn) about time. It wasn’t about time per se anyway. It was about photography. And no one agreed with me. If they understood what I was on about they didn’t demonstrate it. Just threw up objections that flew off at tangents that had nothing to do with what I was trying to say.
Incidentally, is there a link to your images?
Oh all right then. Its probably a bad idea but I shall tell you about it. I asked what you meant because what I was talking about in my discussion was an observable link to the past in photos from the present to the cost of the observable link to the present. I have no problem with the observable link to the past part. But when the observable link, the signs and signifiers, the indicators to the present is/are missing in (bold) certain genres of picture (bold), I think it’s a significant and important loss.
I understand that there are still economic reasons why pictures are shown in black and white and obviously these are legitimate. People have to keep the business in the black or go bust and if b&w is still less expensive to print then… But newspapers are going down the drain, i think they are telling us so anyway. Meanwhile, on the web, colour is not more expensive than black and white so there’s no financial imperative here.
I think – I proposed… and all those who responded and I suspect many who didn’t bother to respond objected to this – that black and white pictures shot in the present for news and photojournalism, do not communicate the present well, barely appear to refer to the present even sometimes. The visible connection to the past is communicated more strongly in black and white pictures. And I would call this “nostalgia” in the worst cases and perhaps “allusions or references” to the past in most others. In fact, someone else used the word nostaligia before I did in one of my examples below. Meanwhile, ordinary colour or contemporary colour technology has no problem commuicating the present. After a while i realised the effect of colour or black and white on our perception of time in photographs is like perfume. It’s something there. Sometimes the scent is overpowering, sometimes its so subtle you hardly notice it. But even when its subtle, its still there. This is true for both black and white and colour and the way it speaks to us of the present and the past.
The choice of black and white is not an issue (for me) in some news or documentary work but i think its a big mistake in others. Examples of this we have seen on burn recently are firstly, the essay by John Delaney, which is not problematic for me even though I would preferred seeing his outdoors shots in colour as they were originally shot because they are more beautiful and more contemporary looking and would have been a beautiful mix with the portraits.) I don’t believe the element of time is a problem at all in his work though, despite the fact that I prefer the colour version better. Secondly the series we saw by James W. Delano. I thought the black and white a problem in this series. The disconnect from the present in that series for no good reason that I could tell (apart from perhaps that its his signature style – which is not a good reason). Thirdly the EMT series is another one that I think the use of black and white is not a problem. Why? The Delano pictures are witness to a major and recent event. The Delaney pictures and EMT series (sorry can’t remember the name of the photographer off the cuff) are a continuation. They are not an event but something that goes on every day. It doesn’t matter if we can’t place them in the present. Although of course the EMT shots are very likely (from visible evidence only) to have been quite recent given the technology shown there but you’d probably still have to be be an expert to pick that and be correct.
I know that when we see news pictures they are usually surrounded by words and in the context of a newspaper or similar. I am starting to wonder that the these indepth stories that photojournalists do are shown more often in art galleries than in any traditional forum (but I am not certain about that). I wonder about the value of Delano’s pictures as a witness to something of great significance. We saw images on tv of this event which was appropriate. I wonder how else Delano used his pictures and what he hoped to achieve. I feel quite cynical about his series but it triggered this whole questioning I am doing of the use of black and white photography in the present in certain genres of photography and with certain subjects.
People on that other thread seemed to find what i am suggesting threatening. Erica thought it was a case of dumbing down which I reject. Black and white photography is not more difficult or intellectual for the viewer than colour. The criticism that I do take on board is that if people followed the implications of what I argue, there’d be less variety – only colour in the news and reportage of recent events and no black and white. But again but I am not sure there is very much to worry about. People will continue to make black and white pictures and show them in books and elsewhere until they are sick of making it and the public are sick of seeing it. I don’t see that happening yet or anytime soon. I just question the choice of black and white when colour does the job better – the job being communicating present or recent events in the present.
Well you did ask, bob.
Cheers
andrea :))))…
first, i just finished watching Dryer….and my head is spinning and i have to go out for a walk….i’ve actually have a lot (suprise ;)) ) so say about your conjectures…so of which (as described above) i agree with…some of which i do not, but i think it is a very very important discussion….you can find my pictures (small selection) at Lightstalkers…also, my essay about my son and father and time and grief was published here in january (bones of time)….my work is almost entirely in b/w (film) but i have shot color and am now, slowly, reworking in color again…when i first began to photograph seriously (please do not take the word in a pompous way, but simply suggesting that i embraced photography as a vehicle of expression in my life, a working part of my life, as opposed to painting) 10 years ago, i shot in both…and as i’ve described here before, used one of those 1st generation digi cameras (u know the ones with the hard floppy in the back, and you could only shoot 5 pics) along side my old 35mm cameras…as a painter, i was enthralled by both color and b/w…and the decision to turn toward b/w for almost 10 y ears was an emotional and visual decision (i love the texture of b/w + grain) which was board out of my love of drawing (charcoal) and goy’s small books and black paintings…i tended to use color garrishly, as a contrast….
anyway, there is a lot o one to add and probe to what you’ve suggested above….if u give me a few hours, i’ll write something tonight….i am often bothered (in journalism) by the choice to shoot b/w as some kind of underlying ‘classicism’ or as a suggestion that it is more “whatever’…in fact, for me, one of the single most important images of the last quarter century came in color and in digital:
http://www.antiwar.com/news/?articleid=2444
as well as the iconic image from the prison entitled Electrocution 6 (the hooded prisoner wearing black with arms stretched)….
there is so much to say, but i will leave u with this thought vis-a-vis James pictures…
there is NO proper way to witness, and there is NO real way to photograph the dead, to photograph a dead child laying in a back water river with a bracelet attached to her leg that was originally meant to keep her from being swallowed by the river…when we, as viewers and as photographers, get caught up in the appearance of the image, we have already lost the meaning to that and those images…the choice of james to shoot the way he did had NOTHING at all to do with the question of b/w/color, film/digital, but that, for him, he had to photograph what he had seen in the manner he knew best, that he has always photographed, and that to him was the way that he could both make sense of what he’d seen as well as his close personal relationship to both the nation and the people he knows and works with there….i know james personally, and he would be most willing to talk to you about all that, but the quesiton Andrea must be for yourself:
how is it that we decide to read something react to something and how do those choices reflect out own relationship to the world around and the expression of what we have seen….
again, there is no singular way to make testament more truth or more real or more relatable or more humane or more honorable….this is even more true with photographing tragedy….
when you have witnessed tragedy first hand (and who among us has not), this question, these questions become inextricably bound to the decisions we make as photographers, as viewers and as humans.
neither color nor black and white do anything better….photography is a manufactured thing, photographs are manufactured constructions, palimpsests of what occurred….
there is no way that a picture of that dead girl, no matter who photographed her, in no matter which way, will ever, not ever, allow her life to be understood, nor the grief of her mother, nor the loss of those villagers…not ever….but maybe, it will allow us to breathe compassion and loving kindness and thoughtfulness into our lives, to make us aware of what occurs….
herve made a very eloquent and important point, that the reason why he did not like the essay is that he felt it was more about the photographs than the people of Burma themselves…i disagree, but i think that ‘doubt’ and that skepticism is healthy, is important….
how is it exactly do each of us as photographers and as viewers create something that allows to get what this life is, what people mean, their lives, their importance….
i trust photography less and less for any of that, but i also know that strangely it has been a beacon in my own life, a way for me to express, without words, the wonderment and the sorrow of living, and my connection to the world around…and that is not about b/w or color….
one of the biggest difficulties and problems with the photoworld, and the viewing public, is that (and I include myself in this statement) they dont get beyond the surface but to the depth of what is being suggested, or the reason for the photographs themselves….it’s a game for the wealthy…
as a buddhist, the most important thing to me is compassion and connection, and while i totally fail all the time, i do know that sometimes pictures, like the breath, allow me to focus on something else, on some ineluctable truth, that we continually fail in our knowing, but that there are bridges that traverse the chasms toward a greater understanding….not of the ‘family of man’ photo philosophy, but something more individual….
for me, if a photographer chooses to photograph in a way that is their way of seeing and thinking and reacting to the world, that is all i require….and often that’s never enough, is it…
but, i’ll write more tonight about time….
more later
hugs
running
b
Nice to see you back, Bob.
Colour vs b&w? isn’t that an old and almost ancient discussion? As long as the content is good, who cares?
I have an Eggleston poster in my living room and the particular image would do just as well in b&w..
I couldn’t agree more with bob here..
“for me, if a photographer chooses to photograph in a way that is their way of seeing and thinking and reacting to the world, that is all i require….and often that’s never enough, is it…”
just to be clear..I have issue with the thought that “…colour does the job better – the job being communicating present or recent events in the present.” My point on LS was that I don’t think color does do the job of communicating the present better. My reference to dumbing down was a reaction to the idea that someone would need color in an image in order for it to effectively communicate recent events well..I just don’t agree. However, I completely agree that for me, Delano’s style was at its least effective in the hurricane story. In other bodies of his work, I find it completely apt.
(I completely agree that for me = I completely agree with Andrea’s sense that some communication was lost because of the use of..)
Bob, thanks for bringing Milton Rogovin to the attention of our Burn community. His work and life are a true inspiration and in December (god willing) he will celebrate his 100th birthday! Last December I was fortunate enough to attend the opening reception of his “A Yemeni Community: Photographs from the 1970s by Milton Rogovin” exhibit at the Arab American National Museum in Dearborn, Michigan. In addition to dozens of framed prints, we were able to meet one of his daughters and see the documentary film “Picture Man: the Poetry of Photographer Milton Rogovin.” Seeing this man’s compassionate, truth-seeking vision through his photos is like touching the hearts and lives of the unsung workers and immigrants of our country. Here is a bit about the show:
http://www.arabamericanmuseum.org/yemenicommunityrogovin.html
I recommend folks going to Milton’s website. He is a living link to the social documentary photogs of the 1950s and beyond. The URL is
http://www.miltonrogovin.com/
Patricia
Martin, i am not raising a general objection to black and white. It’s not a rehashing of an old debate.
emcd, I don’ know where my original post is that you respond to but anyway I remember a bit of it…
“It occurs to me that certain people, certain photographers, have an “older” way about their sensibilities,”
Nothing wrong with that. Though I am not sure about Delaney. The sensibility seems to obvious. Too much on the surface. I doubt anyone could tell they were his if he’d shot in colour. In composition and subject matter, they look practically indistinguishable from pictures I’ve seen taken in Sumatra of the tsunami.
Bob, if I am to respond to your post, it will take me a little. I am not sure whether i should as I don’t want to get bogged down in the same arguements i had on lightstalkers, not that it looks like that yet. However, I appreciate that you have understood my point and get it. I appreciate your long reply. Let me know if you want me to respond.
in fact, for me, one of the single most important images of the last quarter century came in color and in digital:
http://www.antiwar.com/news/?articleid=2444
—————————–
ABU GRAIB? Yes, absolutely, Bob. On many counts.
I am sure a good many of you have read this:
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/10/business/media/10photo.html?pagewanted=1&_r=2&hpw
David,
I sent Anton a revised statement for Riverside.
emcd I didn’t even realise you were erica. I should finetune my point a tad. Referring to this “…colour does the job better – the job being communicating present or recent events in the present.” I mean communicating the sense of the present. Not just communicating the event that happened but communicating the sense that it is recent and not any time in the past or any other time.
I’m not sure people in general think B&W suggests the past. One exhibition I did of news photos (current ones, I usually do prints from the last year’s photos) resulted in many comments that the viewers were surprised they were in color. They expected B&W because they were news photos – even though the photos had originally run as color photos in the newspaper.
I don’t know how future generations will react to B&W, as it becomes more rare in general, but I don’t think there is yet a cultural tendency to think photos that are B&W dated and photos that are color current. And for most people alive today, color photos have been mainstream as long as they have been alive. So even for them, color (unless it has a certain “look”) doesn’t by itself suggest past or present.
Sign of the times. Gamma in bankruptcy.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/08/10/business/media/10photo.html?_r=1&ref=business
DAH …. lemme knw if v can have a small chat today ………. vivek
Andrea..I understood..we just need to disagree about color/ bw / the present..in your above post I think you mean Delano, nor Delaney? …
Yes that’s right, Delano, not Delaney. Yes we have to agree to disagree Erica. Cheers.
re: bw/colour
The general public appreciates b/w to a greater extent than you might expect.
In the portrait business, some customers still request b/w. Wedding albums are often a mix of b/w and colour. Cusomers will frequently tell me that they love black and white, and find it more timeless and elegant. One customer described the appeal of b/w as having “less noise”.
I can appreciate the opinion that B&W sometimes works and sometimes doesn’t for some folks. That in some instances–the hurricane essay in this case– B&W might not work for them because there are no immediate identifying bits that suggest the 21st century. It doesn’t bother me in that way, but I can see it might bug some. But “a significant and important loss”? I’m not sure what is meant by this at all.
Indeed I totally agree with you Gordon. But I think that’s a lot like the way the public has come to accept abstract art finally. The appreciation of the public is still relatively superficial and way behind the times. You can’t really blame for that though. Art appreciation is not universally self-evident.
Andrea,
Do you mean way behind the times = b&w? Seems like it..
If we’re talking art and comtemporary art photography, if it’s overfed by anything it’s medium and large format colour work. To me much of it is old, repetetive and behind the times. Don’t misunderstand me, I love much of it, but I also think that some artists/photographers gets more credit than they deserve simply because of the technique.
Cheers
B&W has it’s place as does color, I think… Color works best when the subject requires it, the color is captured well and not mudded up from all the different horrible light sources found in the Modern world. B&W tends to ignore the lack of quality of light. Color though, I have always loved. As a kid and probably as with most kids, I hated b&w because it was old and a lesser technology. Now I feel very different about this. B&W fits perfectly with some subjects. Sometimes it just feels right to use.
In some cases, if you want a timeless, creepy, or if the subject is strong enough that color is not needed, B&W fits. Say, DAH’s Andy story, Andy’s art wasn’t the sort that was full of color or vibrence. Andy was a subject that the use of color couldn’t have been benificial in helping the viewer understand him. It’s possible from reading DAH’s account that no one can ever fully understand Andy.
I think we need David’s input here.
To me, black and white is timeless, in more ways than one.
To me color is harder to sell at the rich homes because it sometimes demands and forces a particular decor..
that confuses … Rich lady eventually buys a picture that MATCHES her wall paint and furniture…
Now the b&w on the other side…
its a blessing…
it matches any furniture, plus looks elegant near porcelain or glass or fireplaces…
plus it looks intellectual or should i say “timeless”…:)
I don’t know about gender, Panos, but rich people do fund art in this country, just like they did in the Renaissance, and many other periods. I would not equate rich with fickle interest in art.
About color, everytime I read that before Eggleston, Meyerowitz, “color photography did not exist”, I feel like an unrecognized genius. In my family, we started to take color pictures in the early sixties… :-)
unrecognized genius….
Herve, you…
oh stop it… i heard u r a Burn photophilosopher…:)
( i was just trying to be a negator … thats all:)))))))))))
I really don’t understand why there would be an issue about this. Both are appropriate, as are film/digi, just depends on what you are saying and how you wish to say it..
It all boils down to education. Those that are educated tend to have a better understanding of art. In the Renaissance era and prior most art was primarily a tool to convey religious stories. That era though did turn into an era where artists was recognized individually, folk art became a major movement in the US, craft, art deco, modernism, post modernism, etc etc. But the wealthy have always funded art. Wealthy being the church, collectors, etc. All who are educated. The church used art to talk to the illitterate. Photo journalism on the otherhand has put this art(photography) into the hands of everyone. Some of these people, never fully educated which is why many papers in the US are written for the 5th grade reading level. As lesser educated job dissapear, people afford less, buy less of what they don’t need (newspapers since news is available free online, tv) and thus pushed photoJ to near extinction. Moving photos are more entertaining to those less educated in art…
Color? B&w? Some may feel b&w is timeless, but what about those under educated? If the news is dumbed down, perhaps the majority of viewers are too undereducated to understand the difference? I know for myself, I felt color was superior prior to college… What do others who haven’t had any art education think? Has photoJ been too long in the spotlight and hands of those who don’t fully understand the content? I’m just rambling after a “fun” encounter with an old man who felt threatened by myself and g/f after she photographed his trailor and trash in front from the road. For her study of trailor home living. BAH!
Moving photos meaning video
Colour or B&W? Horses for courses; whatever works for each subject!
Cheers
DAH seems to have disappeared again! Post a fresh essay!! :)
Jim, your wish is his command ;=)
Patricia
Yeah, but it’s just more misery, suffering and destruction.
I was just attacked by a taxi driver here in Bucharest outside my apartment. He charged me twice the stated price for the route to the supermarket I always take and I showed my unhappiness. He came after me with a bottle and then circled the block and came up alongside me and threw a full cup of red colored juice on me. I don’t get why he was so mad though?! He got twice the fare! Bucharest is pretty hardcore. I have never been robbed of cameras, taxi fares and my sanity except her in Bucharest. No wonder there are no tourists here.
what? stolen camera? overcharged by a TAXI driver?red juice… attack?
catch your breath and come again?
was he drunk?
JIM…
laughing…i am here…i was just waiting for the discussion to be over on b&w and color..sorry
cheers, david
Panos, I know you are kidding. This is how it is here in Bucharest on a daily basis, I have had a Leica M6 stolen as well as a Yashika T4. I have been ripped off by taxi drivers many times. Somehow calling them a “goddamn motherfucking cunt” even though they claim they don’t understand english makes them very mad. This guy tonight was nuts and violently attacked me.
DAVID
There you go again, dumping more “misery, suffering and destruction” on Jim’s eyes. Shame on you!
Pete, if it was just of some value. It would be more helpful for the US to just mint a few billion more dollars and send it over there. Photos aren’t going to help. Just more exploitation.
or Italy, in this case.
Davin..
i hear you…
im sorry… unfortunately i know exactly what youre talking about…:(
(isn’t David working on erica’s questionnaire? I wouldn’t mind, sycophantastically speaking, hearing his answers on Proust’s questionnaire as well)
I am cringing a bit at all this talk about uneducated people not “getting” art. Bordering on the patronizing and the elitist. There are myriads of educated people not getting art as well. Maybe a poor choice of words and people concepts.
Jason, if the Church used art for the “illiterate”, that sure makes the point they can “get it”, no?
I would actually think that, as “uneducated” as they were, they could get transfixed by art, maybe even more than much educated people nowadays (who will like everything, great, and no so great, equally and uncritically). Simple-mindedness is far from being the worse state of mind for great art to make its mark.
Come to think of it, I think that’s the way a lot of people come to enjoy photography. As something visceral, ie. at first sight, that can resonate deep within after. Very few can or are willing to figure out why it should or could be so . Even here, read the comments under so many essays. very little critical work done, mostly “how I feel” declarations.
And I don’t think that people versed in photography and its history have any first-hand knowledge what will stick 50 years from now, and then on… This is a very gelatinous period, so to speak. Stuff comes to the surface, sinks in again, to be seen again, or maybe never again. it’s all a big matrix at this point.
I think PJ work, ALL!, will stand, only in the measure that the agencies sustaining that kind of work will still be extant, meaning the very people doing the work will have to vie for its preservation, and as part taking of a definite place in the history of the medium, which will roughly be seen ending around the Vietnam War and some, Peress’s Telex Iran possibly being its last Hurrah, and its undoer as well. After that, PJ had art in their mind, and while this is wonderful, they come into competition with everyone else, including the very peole who make art what it really is about, the creators. Tough fight! :-)
Oh well, what do I know really, just an educated guess… :-)))
Panos:
I may just be based out of Paris or Stockholm in 2010. I am the only foreign photographer based in Romania that I know of. This is the most BACKWARD EU country there is. It’s actually frightening. Romania is only in the EU to act as a buffer against Russia. They need at least another 5 years before being admitted. It’s corrupt, lawless and just plain nuts. I am not joking when I say there are no tourists. Bucharest is the most insular place you will find within the EU.
David; “i was just waiting for the discussion to be over on b&w and color”.
Laughing; I don’t blame you. It’s a pretty hard-worked hobby horse that should’ve been taken off to the knacker’s yard and shot by now!
Davin; I’m sorry to hear of your hassles. Even though it pisses you off when you lose gear, I think that little bit of trust you lose in others is the biggest long term loss. Keep your chin up mate…
Herve; I think the biggest “dumbing down” culprit are newspapers in general. I don’t think they give the “general public’s visual sophistication as much credit as it’s due. And speaking of dumbing down, our local rag often only has 1/2- 1 1/2 pages of international news and over 7 of sports.
Jim; I do understand where you are coming from re; photographing poverty/strife etc. But how do you cope with that as an editor of a newspaper? You are in a great positon to change your paper’s tack, or does it paper only focus on the positive? I do feel that newspapers are probably the biggest culprit of the “if it bleeds it leads culture” This isn’t a dig at you, just a general question… :-)
HERVE…
nice educated guess…
VIKAS…
please yes, we should skype tomorrow…or, just call me in the morning as soon as you awake…
ERICA….
sorry to put you off for a week…i should have just set up our new schedule in the first place..my mistake….
ROSS…
yes, i understand where Jim is coming from too regarding exploitation by some, but it just should not be a blanket statement or condemnation of those photojournalists who seriously believe they are informing, doing some good or fighting for change…their efforts may be to no avail as Jim suspects, but at least they tried….many have died trying….
cheers, david
Ross: Thanks. I guess what is hard is that the more nuts and corrupt you are the more Romanian women like you. I am an honest American guy and it’s like I have no chance basically at anything here.
David;
I think the work of those that care (eg. McCullin, Nachtwey etc) will always shine out over those that don’t or are cynical.
As long as you’re able to look into the mirror and know that the face looking back at you did his/her best to enlighten or make change through their work; that’s the most important validation. Maybe you succeeded, maybe you failed, but at least you tried.
aaaaaahhh Davin so that’s your real gripe the women don’t like you
The Balkan issue is huge. Balkan women tend to marry their ‘own’. I will be based here but will be looking to West Europe and beyond for friendship. If you don’t drive a new top of the line BMW or Mercedes–50,000-100,000 euros+ you have no chance of getting a girlfriend here. This may sound absolutely crazy to Americans reading this, but I assure you that it is true.
“aaaaaahhh so your real gripe the women don’t like you”
The catch-cry of every single man at chucking out time at the local pub! :-)
Judging by the Romanian internet I am sure you could find a bride or two to take back to the states………
Davin;
Does Romania being a buffer between “East and West” mean that it is also a conduit for people trafficking and the associated organised crime etc?
Listen: I dare anyone to come to Bucharest and to see how they fare after a week. I’ve been here for a few years and every day is an adventure! Th rules between men and women here are bizarre–totally skewed by the effects of Communism and the sudden emergence of the nouveaux riche. I have never experienced such an oddball vibe as here. Everyone stares at everyone because they are checking everyone else out. Having money is huge here! The craziness of Bucharest has to be seen to be believed! I encourage people to come here! Not!!! From the airport to the cab driver to central Bucharest, you will be stripped of your money and your well being! DON’T COME TO ROMANIA!!!! CEAUSESCU’S GHOST LIVES ON!!!
ROSS: YES, BUT THATS’ MORE IN MOLDOVA. . . WHICH IS ACTUALLY ROMANIA(!)
People trafficking; to me probably the worst crime of all…
Ross agreed, but I feel I have also been abused like never before this past week here in Romania. I have to swing my 5D at ferocious dogs and swear at people constantly. I am not normally like this! Romnania is pretty much as bizarre as it gets outside a conflict zone.
Davin; Maybe you need a break somewhere else for a week or so for a bit of a breather?
Davin..
u need 2 weeks in downtown LA…:)
… but Davin, what made u fell in love with romania in the first place????????
Pnaos!
Ha! I know I make Romania sound like hell! Well it is pretty hardcore here in Bucharest. I fell in love with the Romanian countryside where I lived a full year with peasants in 2003 à Koudelka. Rural life is dramatically different! Bucharest is very insular and only functions for Romanians. It is not an international city with tourists. I have been here a while and just got completely scammed today by a taxi driver. A family on vacation coming in from the airport would get absolutely skewered. But this is my base for now as I am much closer to hat I want to photograph than if I was in the US.
Taxi drivers haqve great lines of communication and see a chink in your armour, that hint of discontent………………….other than that they are avid fans of Lightstalkers, they thought it was Nightstalkers and they love burn. Basically they know all about you
Imants,
Other times, I have claimed I am with the US State Department and that if they rip me off I will shoot them. This has made some cab rides go very smoothly. I know this sounds crazy to people, but it is so hardcore here and I am alone. I have to be very aggressive and fend for myself.
Davin,
i hope your project is worth every single heartache and loss youve gone through. just work out, look tough, eat your spinach. at the end of the day, just say i really want to do this. other times of the day, cuss them out!
while youre there, make the most out of your stay, because you probably wouldnt want to go back there no?
DAVIN….
wow…
peace
and
good
thoughts
to
you
and
you
and
you…..
keep shooting…
and
searching
and
seeing……
in
light
and
love..
xox
***
Davin just make sure that you don’t sell your balls as you will never get them back………………………….. then again if the price is ok mmmmmmmmn.
Thanks everyone!
Gracie: I actually live here(!) What I went through today makes me understand why no one ever comes here on their European holiday! No family member, relative, nor friend of mine has ever visited me here in Romania :))
Imants: Yeah, I’ll keep my balls, but it’s not as if I will need them for any Romanian women anytime soon. Sorry for the particulars, but that is the truth–I don’t drive a 2009 BMW or Mercedes and therefore no Romanian woman will even look at me. All I have is two 5Ds, a few M6s, an M8 and a Macbook Pro.
I hear u Davin, i hear u!!!!!!
DAVIN…
good on you…let’s see some of this Bucharest work…surely you must have pictures of some of what you describe…maybe we should take some of your countryside work and combine it with the city life…in any case, all of what you describe should manifest itself in a serious body of work…all alone and working is a good thing from a photographic perspective…
cheers, david
I think a lot of the time you don’t hear about the sorts of experiences I have been having in Romania because many photographers have translators and fixers with them in foreign places. I have no one I am traveling with and no real friends here in Bucharest to look out for me. I am operating completely alone and have to fend for myself and sometimes the verbal insults I have to level at people are a bit crazy–nothing like anything I would ever say to someone back on my home turf in New York. I am constantly fending of ferocious stray dogs and the looks of amused arrogant women of the fitze crowd laughing at me and corrupt officials and nut cases who claim to be taxi drivers.
davin
email me…
feature being shot in romania…
maybe some still work for you?!?
production starts in a few weeks..
**
DAH: Yes! It’s all on my hard drive as either Imacon scans or RAW files that need to be worked on!!!
All I have is two 5Ds, a few M6s, an M8 and a Macbook Pro….
jee… u got more guns than the entire Navy…
show us some action… we are all eyes……..
go wendy..:))))))))))))
DAVIN,
Sorry to hear about your stories.
Why would you choose Stockholm or Paris to move to? just curious. Both are beautiful cities though.
PANOS,
There’s many images from Davin at http://www.anzenberger.com
DAVIN….
i do not know where you stand with an overall edit….if you have it down to say 50 or less, please send to submissions here as an essay…if you have more, please send me a link where i can take a look….i have been tracking you all along and am very familiar with the countryside work….what you describe in the city sounds frantic….if you have captured this mood you feel so deeply, then surely we can make an interesting essay….those pictures combined with the words you have written right here, or a condensed version, should make for interesting viewing….anyway, shouldn’t we give it a shot??
WENDY…
it would be really interesting if you and Davin worked together….even the story of the making of the respective stories is an interesting story….are you doing another film in Romania as per your work in Cuba?? please let me know if there is anything i can do to help…..
cheers, david
wendy. Ditto what DAH said. Also, If davin cant make it and you can pay exes for the trip(and of course if you were interested :) ) I would for sure want to come out there to shoot for it. If you want you can email me John@john-gladdy.com
John
David,
I have sent you an email.
Regards,
bodo
no romania for this chica..
only abandoned brothels
in california…..
yes, will see how this develops for davin…
xox
***
5,510!
Needed a round number.
dellicson, I can’t wait to see your pictures.
NIN – Head Down – Live rehearsals
NIN – We’re in This Together
Oh, hello there. No, I dont have anything to add here. I just wanted to be at the end of the thread. I was sorting hoping to snag #6000, but as that doesnt seem likely now, I’ll send for being Tail End Charlie. Carry on.
Jim
“Well, I don’t completely agree with this. I really believe it is the photographers role to interpret his work. Photographers need to spend much more time telling us about their photos. Few photos, especially in documentary work, really have the power to stand alone. If you don’t want to talk about each photo, at least talk about the photos in general, set the context. I’m thinking of the introductory material to each group of photos in DAH’s “Divided Soul” for example.”
This is not interpreting the work, it is introducing the work and I agree that is necessary. Photojournalistic pictures need to be put in context and words are needed for that. Photojournalistic pictures have a specificity that needs articulating. We need to know, where when, why? and the pictures often (almost never) do not show all this.
Interpretation is more like what a singer does with a song. The singers words before a song are introduction, not interpretation. An artist’s statement is an introduction. It’s the role of a second party to interpret the original work. Photographers are interpreters of reality. Critics are interpreters of performance, image and object.
I think that Jason was trying to do a lot more than introduce the work. I also think he was using other people’s analysis rather than his own.
“The Images take us on a sinister, eerie tour of a country whose only existence centers around their military and patriotism.” This is pure interpretation.
“The contrasting beauty between the savagery of ruin and rebirth of destroyed lives creates a romantic idea of what once was there, conveying a different feeling for each person that witnesses the images.” This too.
Bob, I liked your ideas about Jason’s work. I was thinking something similar in terms of how it would be appropriate for him to talk about his own reactions to the place, his own reasons for being there and certainly. But often we don’t know what we are trying to do when we take pictures. The intentions are not clearly formed in the beginning and they change as a project develops. This, i think is the real challenge of an artist’s statement. But honesty is essential in writing a good artist statement. I think it takes time and maturity to develop that ability.
You don’t think your own behaviour may be inviting trouble? I travel in places where no one speaks English and don’t have anything like this sort of trouble. People are much the same everywhere so perhaps its time to consider what you are doing that gets these reactions. You probably need to calm down a bit. Why are the stray dogs attacking you? They way you dress could be the reason. Try to look more like a local. I have experienced this myself when cycling. So now I take off the helmet and sunglasses when I pass by stray dogs. Think about your head gear and jacket. On the other hand, once you look more like a local, your images may look less spectacular. ;-)
AndreaC: are you familiar at all with Romania and the effects of the Nicolae Ceausescu regime on the country? I don’t have any of the issues that I have here anywhere else! Only in Romania! There are fewer now after the mayor exterminated many of them, but there were as many as 200,000 stray dogs in Bucharest at one point–literally packs of them roaming about. Very intimidating. I wear jeans a button down shirt not tucked in. . . I shouldn’t stand out too much. Romania happens to be quite a unique place and situation and this is why there are so few tourists here and why people normally are unaware of just how oddball a place it is. In the 1980s at the end of Communism, Bucharest was close to a police state and people were practically starving. The secret police in Romania controlled people comparable to the way North Korea controls its citizens today. The upshot of all this, is that Romania is quite bizarre.
Davin you better listen to aunty C …….. if you don’t she will get mad at you
Davin;
Those stray dogs sound pretty nasty. I’ve spent a bit of time in Tonga and nearly every mutty dog there is born with a gene that automatically demands them to try and take a decent chunk out of your calf as you cycle past!
Flying past them at a great rate of knots doesn’t work; it winds them up even more! The only thing that worked was to slow right down to slower than walking pace when you spotted one. They would fly out the gate and stop with a confused look on their face wondering why they couldn’t chase you; and they’d turn around and go back again.
Mind you; it was always a bit nerve-wracking until they stopped though…. I mean; I do want to lose weight, just not in half kilo chunks from my calves…Sounds like the dogs you contend with are a different kettle of fish completely!!
But Ross, I am not biking. I am just walking down the street when they attack. I usually have to avoid whole streets where they have claimed their territory or cross the street to get out of their way. This is what I mean when I say that Bucharest is the most backward capital in the European Union. People are being controlled by animals. I am unable to walk freely about in some places nor am I able to enjoy myself without fear of being attacked. A Japanese business man bled to death a few years back here when a dog bit his femoral artery. Ceausescu bulldozed a fifth of historic Bucharest in the mid 1980s and forcibly relocated thousands of people from their homes (which he destroyed) to Communist blocs. Thousands of dogs were thus put out on the street suddenly with no home and they multiplied like nobody’s business. Beyond this though, Romania is the most corrupt European country next to Bulgaria. The only thing separating the two is that in Bulgaria there are broad daylight mafia style killings. Romania was so traumatized by Ceausescu’s police state that the transition to a democracy and capitalism has been especially tough and the country has yet to learn more modern and educated ways of conducting itself. Some people have suddenly come into large sums of cash and have gone from having almost nothing to driving 100,000+ Euro sports cars. A whole nouveaux riche class has risen up and the whole culture is a mess with young people just dreaming of material possessions. Bucharest’s beautiful pre World War II architectural heritage is all crumbling as everyone just wants new building. I am trying to document all this!
Davin; It certainly sounds like you’re right in amongst everything alright. And also in a unique position of a society in rapid transformation.
Sorry; it meant to read “unique position of documenting a society in rapid transformation”.
Ross…:))
In a “rapid transformation”…situation
who is at fault?
I mean who wins ?
who said its late???????????????
check here please !!!!!!!!!!!
VIVA !!!
Today we are drinking DALI!!!
BURNIANS the world is “crumbling down” just in front of our eyes every second …
that’s why we the civilians rely on you…
You are the ones that you can document all this !!!
LOVE YOU ALLLLL…my heart is with all of you …wherever you are …please,keep in mind
there are people who believe in YOU.
Panos;
“Ross…:)) In a “rapid transformation”…situation who is at fault? I mean who wins?”
I don’t know about fault because I’ve never been there, but if I remember right Ceausescu’s regime was pretty ruthless.
I’d say as an educated guess, no one at the bottom of the pecking order wins…. As usual….
Cheers man.
Devin re, Isn’t that what happened in Russia when the communist block came to an end? Wasn’t it a lawless society too for a while. Though I don’t know how foreign photographers were treated by the citizenry. There are 20 millions dogs in India, almost all are strays. But anyhow, I will take your word for it.
all… closing down comments here… please continue over at Stray Cat….