Bobby Davidson (www.untitledproof.com) likes cutouts….representations…..it is not too hard to figure out what this Parson’s School of Design student is trying to say with the above created cardboard cutouts image….it pretty much says it all in our current landscape of everyone taking pictures of everything….does this symbolize the end of photography as we know it (or should i say knew it)??
not on your life…if young photographers do not see today/now/ this moment as offering them more than any previous generation’s wildest dreams, then they should just go back to bed….every generation has to re-invent something…whatever my generation had, they pretty much built themselves…it only looks now like perhaps it was handed to them, but alas life just ain’t like that…sure there are problems now and yes there were problems then…different problems, but things needed to be revolutionized, changed, modified, re-worked, then as now..so what is new??…
most problematic today is simply figuring out how to finance our passion….but, this will be done, this will be done….the smart ones, the positive thinkers, the doers, will figure it out…they already are….personally, i am so so pleased to just be able to lend a small helping hand to the next generation…what could be more worthy in life than the passing on of knowledge to the next in line??….leads to the big warm all around….give it away is what i say…please do it the first chance you get…this time may come sooner than you think….
Burn is almost one year old…a lot has happened since our original powwow in my loft just before Christmas last year….go back and search for the photos taken at the time….read what we were thinking…how we came up with our name, who said what to whom, who took the lead, who gave the time , and who created this organism…who is the who? you is the who that’s who…
right now our repository of distributable content from Burn contributors would rival potential output of most medium sized agencies….young photographers have clearly chosen Burn as one of THE places they want to be published along with MediaStorm, 100 Eyes, NYT Lens blog, Aperture, Foto8 , PDN, Digital Journalist, etc etc…today’s online photo world is no longer a zero sum game….instead of competition it is co-opetition….like minded peer groups often supporting the other…an umbrella under which well meaning serious communicators in the arts and journalism can co-exist and thrive…it is about trust…it is about authenticity….this affirmation from the young generation gives me only one thing…a sense of responsibility….dammit, i have dug myself into a hole…i cannot quit now!
in the last few weeks i have been working to establish relationships with the established giants of the media as well as keeping things operating with stealth….for it will be stealth that will save us…the giants do not have stealth, but they know it when they see it….they may be welcoming partners after all….not necessarily out of altruism, but out of a combo of a sense of the right thing and practical production costs….we are in the right place at the right time , the right connections , the right content, and the ability to produce on demand… a bridge to the future…..beyond those types of relationships, i have also now a grant writing team in place as well as other funding possibilities soon to be announced so that photographers published here receive a fee and commissioned work is well funded…both for the emerging and the established photographers…obviously my goal is to make the emerging, the established…and the established, keepers of the flame…
i may be asking a lot of you, but i surely plan to pay you back..with an on demand print magazine by the end of the year, with a possible Burn book imprint, alternative gallery shows, $15k grant, international seminars, and with cold beer in my refrig for any of you who stop by…who doesn’t know that??
the other morning at 3am, i woke up out of a deep sleep and was wide awake instantly…sometimes, maybe always, my ideas come to me at the weirdest times and for no apparent reason…lightning bolt….always simple, nothing complicated, obvious, pretty straight forward ideas….i am not an intellectual, but i do think about things….esoteric and utilitarian concepts coming together….yes, a dreamer forever, but i do like to see product on the table so to speak…anyway, i woke up with an idea and title for a new magazine(as if i needed more work! and Anton hates me for this!)….anyway, four hours after my “wake up call” we bought circusmagazine.org…
Circus …the online magazine for the REAL EMERGING PHOTOGRAPHERS…..
young photographers aged 15 and under…..not a kids magazine…the opposite….
an international magazine produced by the very young generation that would appeal to “adults” as well as to their own peer group..sophisticated…leading edge….
when you think about it for even a few seconds you can see it…killer…
yea, yea kids with cameras is nothing new….that is the point…we will work with schools, aid organizations, inner city groups, NGO’s, etc etc to create a child safe site and allow a real home for all this work which is being done worldwide….just as we know that the walls of grade schools are filled with great art , we know that the purity of the very young will manifest itself in something very very special….i will ask Burn photographers to help …with their ideas and with their time and with their curatorial efforts…so now i am digging a hole for you!! you can’t quit now…..told you.
with the combination of Burn and Circus we have nothing but interesting things to think about….and work to do….if you do not see it that way, i suggest you log off now….if you do stick around, i plan to continue nurturing this audience as much as i can…i can only do so many Skype calls in a day, or portfolio reviews in a day and your patience is appreciated… but, many of you know that i do give it a good try….
why would i do this? simple…if i discover even one strong talent out of a thousand , then i will have done my bit…
if i can mentor one book, one show, one photographer who makes a mark, then all is well…and the work in progress nature of Burn allows all of us to see a cross section of what is being produced today…for better or worse…and the more good photographers who are inspired here, or developed here, will only lead to stronger content ,therefore making us more viable for support with each passing day…and Burn will pull Circus, and Circus will push Burn and, well, you get it i am sure….smart crowd….
why i am writing this just before a 24 hr marathon flight is beyond me…avoiding packing and paying last minute bills could be a reason…not having written a Dialogue post in a long time could be another….or, more likely, i just have built up energy and it has come out somewhere…this is too damn long, but i do not have time to really edit…so this is raw…..like a contact sheet or whatever…please just remember the good parts…laughing.
oh by the way, remember the story from last july on my stray cat, now constant companion, Simone?
well, Simone is pregnant…now what??
Well…
I have waited for idea like this. I was sure you will dig deeper for talents. where to search for talents if not between youths? I know you have strong teacher’s nature. Best teacher’s nature. Bravo for CMA for “Plato” name.
Maybe I could help. Not sure now, but I have an idea. I have to ask some people. We’ll see.
must run to work.
peace and b wishes
Just for a moment, I want to reflect on the aspects of community…this one in particular.
Formed in cyberspace, real friendships have blossomed in real time and real life. People care and encourage others to do their best. The words and thoughts of david & others who share the same passion inspire me (as I hope it does for many). I believe in the strength of friendship and community and I’ll step up to any task necessary in which to help make it work.
I don’t know many other photographers nor do I fully understand why I do what I do…freakishly watching in wonder…colors, shapes, patterns…the dance of strangers in the streets as they flow through their lives unknowing that there is a moment where their alignment is sublime visual poetry…recently I poked my head out, sought a photo community and a way to further my education…I think I found something special…if not some great friends, stimulating conversations and sound advice.
Good begets good, like crates like, When you give of yourself or help someone, without expectation of return, the sensation is pure joy…cynics would say otherwise but I’m not talking about altruism… everybody wins…do a favor…make a connection happen between strangers…help paint a friends house…do something to make someone happy…perpetuate joy and graciousness…
I want something real and unabashedly wild…bold but not reckless…pushing boundaries…testing strengths and weaknesses. Even here, in cyberspace, there is beauty in the breakdown and not much is a waste of time…breakthrough will eventually follow if we allow ourselves to go for the ride.
So, Break out the hippie school bus…turn up the music…I’ll be packing the bong in the back, making coffee and snacks for the drivers at 3AM…if the smoke ever clears maybe we will find ourselves in the middle of nowhere…but that’s the place I want to be… :~)
My sincere thanks to d & this community for the ability to create and hold the space for each one of us to learn, ponder, create and inspire.
Kidz and Kittens go well together…looking forward to seeing them nurtured.
With great love and respect,
hillary
”be impeccable with your word…take nothing personally…make no assumptions…always do your best.”
~ The four agreements, Don Ruiz
Nice one David,
inspiring from an early age, brilliant.
I have just done a small talk and some photo projects with the local primary school (six year olds), man they are not scared of digi, they love it. Put together a couple of projects for them to work on, I went back a week later, amazing results stuck all over the classroom. The teacher was over the moon saying it was the best art thing they had done for ages, the ids loved it. In a few weeks I am taking them to a gallery opening of my work, to show them what you can progress to.
great
Ian
Congratulations on the pregnancy!
If I could, as the day of birth approaches, I would hop on a plane and go down there and photograph the new kittens myself. My signature here links to my main blog, of course, but I keep another one – my very first venture in electronic publishing – and it is dedicated entirely to cats.
You can find it here:
http://nocatsallowed.blogspot.com/
And if you don’t think that a cat blog can ever intersect with serious issues, then click on the following link to find a 5 part series that tells the story of a cat in Chugiak, Alaska, as it helps a soldier’s mother get through the turmoil, loss, heartache and horrific challenge that the Iraq war brings to her. Keep in mind that the link is to the final post of the series, but that opens up to the previous four, whereas if I start you out on the first, it won’t open up to any of them:
http://nocatsallowed.blogspot.com/2008/08/part-5-of-5-his-job-complete-romeo.html
This brings me to another point that I want to make, and did to an extent in a comment to an earlier Burn piece. First, I love Burn and the purpose of Burn. What you are doing is great and I agree – I think that the future of photojournalism is going to be fantastic and I stand amazed at what I see young photographer’s doing. If, as you suggest, some of the young look backwards with envy toward the halcyon days of photojournalism that have now slipped away, it is the opposite with me – I look forward with envy, and wonder why the hell the technologies that are developing now could not have coincided with my 20’s, rather than my latter 50’s, soon to give way to 60’s.
As a “senior” (God, I hate to use that word in relation to myself) shooter, I continue to feel all the drive and desire to forge forward as a photographer (and a writer) that I did when I was in my 20’s. As I have for over 35 years now, I wake up each day feeling that I have yet to but am still bound to “emerge,” – yet I cannot in any way jump into Burn with the emerging photographers. As far short of my goals as I have fallen, I have done too many things for that. Very early in my career, I published a three-part spread of words and photos in National Geographic, I have done books, have been named a W. Eugene Smith Memorial Fund first-runner up, but mostly I have devoted my career to producing and creating one-man photojournalistic publications that have been dedicated to covering American Indian and Alaska Native Eskimo, Indian and Aleut peoples and issues.
These have been great fun to do, but they have also been small circulation works with inadequate funding for me to ever fully reach the visions that I had for them.
And now I see all this new technology made just for the lone wolf such as myself and I just want to jump in and go, go, go!
I do not want to fool with paper anymore. My past ways of working no longer hold any interest to me. And I am clawing at the digital rocks, trying to figure out how to scale them, how to make this new technology work for me. So far, though I have yet to even come close to doing with them what I envision, I have had a lot of fun with my two blogs, yet each minute that I put into them is a minute removed from making a living – a task that I have never excelled at, although I have long survived as a freelancer.
Now, whenever I turn myself to the task of making a living, I feel that I am wasting my time. Hence, the tasks necessary for my survival take me ten times as long to complete as they once did – and that in turn makes it all the harder to make a living.
So, I kind of wish a savvy person like yourself would make a make a magazine called something like “Burn-ed out, never – an evolving journal for driven old fart photographers.”
But no one is going to do that. So, though it seems I only flounder now, I am going to figure it out, on my own, because as a photographer/writer/one-man publishing house, this technology was created for me, more than for anyone else that I know, young or old.
As I struggle to figure it out, I will be a big fan and student of Burn, both to watch with excitement as your photographers emerge and to study, to see what I can learn from you and them in order to further my own aspirations.
I suppose I have detoured from the purpose of comments, but its what I felt and thought as I went through this post, so there you have it.
It’s all those stray toms you have been letting in…….
I am sure circus will work and work well ……. the young love to do lose the plot and do do do do……. eventually burn will look pedestrian gotta luv it
Simone?
pregnant?
Ahhhhhhhhhhh life in the beach…:)))))))))))
IMANTS…
exactly…Burn will look pedestrian compared to Circus….the whole point….everybody needs to loosen up, shed the layers, and work with childlike wonder and naivete …nobody does it better than a child, but the rest of us can at least pretend to pretend….oh yea, shhhhhhh, i think Simone might have gotten pregnant by her own brother down the street….scandal is everywhere…
HILLARY…
great thoughts…many thanks…going to sleep (for an hour…i can sleep on the plane..sure, sure)
big hug, david
ALL…
off to the airport in a few hours for the longest damn flight i have had recently, 25 hrs to BKK…hey, this is where print still rules (temporarily)…back pack full of mags and books….long flight, lots to read…no communication from me for a couple of days….back soonest…
cheers, david
FROSTFROG…
that cat with Charlie in the first picture really looks just like Simone, including the collar color..hmmmm….i take your words to heart….the struggle..survival…however, i am sure you agree it is 90% psychological…if you get yourself on a personal project that just soaks up all your time, something good will come out of it…i am struggling along with everyone else, but somehow it feels good to me…in the sense that i know something will happen…get invented…patient revived…it will not be like what it was, but it will be something…. survival tactics breed invention and cunning….write me a private email, and i will answer with some thoughts…
cheers, david
Would love to offer my help for circusmag.
cheers
ian
Dear David,
I hope your flight went well and you reached BKK nice and easy.
I love your idea of Circusmag.
If you want, I am involved in some mentoring of young kids from difficult backgrounds here in London. The institution they are referring to is Livity.co.uk, a production company that involves young kids in all sorts of things, from photography to journalism, TV series, music and fashion. They have been so successful that the British government is now relying on them for a number of projects that deal with human right and climate change, so that they are now producing this magazine called “Control Alt Shift”, about these issues.
I think that it could be a fantastic and unique opportunity for them to be linked with CIRCUSmag, publish their work or simply to know that you, Anton and CIRCUS could have yet another home here in London. Couch, beer and more is also available here!
Please do consider me available to help you in this.
All the best and thanks for the amazing work you guys are doing.
By The way, I wanted to say one thing about BURN.
The strength of burn is not only the showcase of thrilling works, but in my opinion is more about the unique format of such publication, in the sense that it offers a real platform for exchange of views that help each photographer to improve his/her work through the constant confrontation of ideas and input from the participants.
Burn to me it’s a constant source of inspiration, a never-ending seminar, a non stopping workshop, a million and one pages book, a window to the world and finally a beautiful group of new friends.
THANKS
Sigh. Burn is not fully formed, you plan to start another online rag, and you are constantly flying everywhere in the world. It reminds me of the punchline of an old joke that goes something like, “he jumped on the camel and shot off in all directions.”
Seriously, David, your heart is getting way ahead of your head.
Well, good idea, but I have to agree with Jim here.
DAH…
I taught photography—mostly pinhole and photograms—to kids at an elementary school, a few years back. If there is anything I can help with long distance, let me know.
I Am in tears…
Today I want to kiss and hug MR.HARVEY and ANTON and ALL of you …
“Life loves to be taken by the lapel and told: “I’m with you kid. Let’s go.””
Maya Angelou
LET’S GO BURNIANS and do the CIRCLE of LOVE (The Latin word circus comes from the Greek word kirkos, meaning “circle” or “ring”)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z961FEgdlWM&feature=related
Time to face our fears… clowns maybe…???
P.S Simone no more…what about Jocasta and Oedipus …oime …
CIRCUS OF BURN …WE are a Circle of LOVE
and I will agree with some BURNIANS…
MR.HARVEY and others around the Universe…don’t forget to take your aspirins and vitamins…
try to eat organic…hmmm… everything in moderation ( vigorous intercourse excluded )
and please…conserve some energy…together we can do great things (…included…hihihi)
A CIRCUS OF BURNING PHOTOGRAPHERS …
smile , you are behind the camera :)))
The world goes around because there’s some people not having their hearts in the same place as their heads and still manage to stay positive…
off topic: amazon.de lists you, DAH, as artist, and you, Michael Loyd Young, as photographer when searching for the book, and only DAH when sold:
1 “Blues Booze & BBQ”
David Alan Harvey; Gebundene Ausgabe; EUR 24,98
Kinda weird…
Oh boy, here we go… Nothing like a good adventure. I’m speaking to groups of middle schoolers in December. I did this last year and I had a great time. Anything you want me to pass on to them David?
This whole circus magazine thing is just an incomprehensibly sad diversion. The web is seductive. It’s easy to get a domain name and put up a web page. With Burn having so far to go, and with Harvey and Anton’s extremely limited time to do it, and the continuing struggle to fund it, creating yet another web mag seems bizarre and a bit irresponsible.
DAH, interesting …
Hmmmm … I am paying for the education of some kids through organizations. For a little boy called Wellington in South Brazil for example. It keeps him and the others off the streets, provides good meals and basic education. But that is it. There is often no real perspective … It is only an additional chance I can give them – something they might not have gotten under their “normal” conditions. A chance they might, or might not use to find a better place in life. I keep telling myself that a chance is sometimes all someone needs. But to be realisitc, the odds really are not good. So …
I could imagine going there to introduce and nurture this project. Not only to “my” kids, but to their whole classes – this might be another chance one or two of them could grab. Trouble is, it is not my backyard …
I will think about this, talk with some people and get back to you.
Hello all,
Just wondering if anyone will be attending Paris Photo this year? If anyone is up for it, how about meeting for a drink and a post-Paris Photo discussion in a bar or cafe. It starts this Thursday in the Carrousel du Louvre.
take care
D. Bacher
Hi David,
contact Audrey. She said she would try to make it.
I wanted to, too … But too much on my table right now … Guess you know why :-)
Cheers and pls show us some pictures.
Hi David Bacher and all,
I’ll be at Paris Photo on Thursday, maybe on Friday too… I registered in this (free!) workshop http://www.photographie.com/newsletter/ateliers/2009/091116.html
I’ll be happy to meet you all, please contact me tel: 06 61 12 21 32 or audrey.bardou@free.fr
Lassal, I’ll not forget :)))
DAH…
you never stop surprising do you : )
after a couple of weeks off-line i check back here to see what’s been happening and read your post…
shades of Dr Seuss ‘who is the who? you is the who that’s who…’ which is the perfect tone with circus in mind…
at the very end of december (31st) Uma will turn 10, she will be getting her first camera, although she does not know anything about it, yet… she’s been nagging us all year for a camera… she used to love playing with my old digi point & shoot some 5 years ago (until it died) and even then, at that young age i got excited from her perspective on her world. but now she is old enough to be responsible for her own camera and storage space…
circus sounds like a very clever and wonderful idea to me. on a few levels…
digging myself into one of your holes, (funny, i’ve spent the day digging holes today, for garden beds and big rocks and caravan tyres…) i would love to somehow be involved in this, perhaps help curate, maybe try something with the school kids in my area, dunno… in the new year i will at last be free of many of my migration related burdens of the past two years, i have many plans and ideas, i am excited to have more time, more time for my family, more time for my photography, more time for my veggie garden… perhaps this is something else for my time… if i can help in anyway…
as Picasso said ‘Every child is an artist. The problem is how to remain an artist …’
and as you said ‘when you think about it for even a few seconds you can see it…killer…’ –
and as they say downunder ‘good on ya!’
cheers
sam
CIRCUS is perfect!
DAH – I don’t know if you saw this when I posted it the first time around, but the morning I woke from this dream I knew it was one of those dreams that is more than a dream:
emcd
October 20, 2009 at 10:32 am
I couldn’t wake up this morning because I was deep in a dream, we were all at the loft, there was another burn gallery opening and sales were happening, we actually had sort of a print on demand service going on with a curated selection of available prints which we kept the files for instead of prints..and then later we had a workshop, with kids there and a team of us made a hands on mm piece with them..there was a dog too David, I hope you don’t mind I let the little ones and a dog in, I held the dog the whole time.
LET”s GO
Woody Alan quotes Groucho Marx in Annie Hall with a joke I have always felt embodied my arbitrary ideals …
“I would never belong to a club that would have me as a member.”
Well, I can finally put that rib-tickler to rest … Burn is the future; this is history … dissemination, nurturing, support, criticisms, collectivism and individualism … Modern-post-modern my ass the new term is BURN.
Keep it up David and remember Burn has a friend named Vasilios in New York …
-Vasilios
A bit off topic, but then maybe not.
http://www.ted.com/talks/pranav_mistry_the_thrilling_potential_of_sixthsense_technology.html
The 6:30 mark of the video most certainly caught my attention.
It is still about getting what is in the mind’s eye out into the real (and I guess, the virtual) world. But changes in technology, the speed at which they change and the ‘oh my god’ factor are astounding.
Doug
Just the legal aspects of kids and their photos, rights, parents permissions sound daunting.
Multiply that with the laws in the various countries. Forums would have to be heavily moderated. Sounds like a legal landmine to me.
Multiply that with the laws in the various countries governing children. Forums would have to be heavily moderated. Sounds like a legal landmine to me.
Don’t know why the double post.
Jim, it must be that double dose of pessimism is getting to the system:-)
Audrey,
I’m not sure if I’m going to Paris Photo Thursday or Friday. In any case I’ll give you a call on your cell phone and we can try and meet up.
a bientot
Only those who tried, know if it worked out.
DAH, I like this idea of circus and it is quite unique. Certainly there are some issues, but they are with everything.
I hope your flight goes well and you enjoy it.
idea of circus and it is quite unique….. probably not that unique there are heaps of sites the youth use create and access. Direct adult control on what is good/important etc many will not participate, I wouldn’t post if I was a kid….. fuck the old codgers ………………………that is anyone over 20
I have a bunch of keen multimedia 15 year olds today I will pass the idea of the site by them…………..
………….if there is money involved well the goal posts change…..grin
………….if there is money involved well the goal posts change…..grin
Yes, particularly if we initiate a charge per post formula to raise funds.
BTW Imants,
Is there a way to see what these keen multimedia 15 year olds are producing?
Government run institution so I am reluctant to show
I didn’t start taking pictures until I was past 30. Hopefully Circus can inspire kids enough to avoid making the same mistake. Let me know if there is anything I can do to help.
Just wait until a parent sues because little Bobby posted photos of his friends on the Internet without their permission. Harvey, this is a really bad idea.
I think I was 6 years old and nearly ran my grandmother into the poor house buying polaroid film so I could document everything. Around age 12 I had an amazing art teacher who got permission to turn a janitor’s closet into a darkroom for me. A real life hero to a kid…
Jim, with all due respect (given your publishing background), do you really think this is a show stopper? Unless the images are used commercially, is there much of a legal argument? I’m sure DAH & Anton will take any necessary precautions with releases, etc.
If publishing photos of under-18 kids on the internet without parental consent is such a hot button, why aren’t Facebook and MySpace sued out of existence?
kids under 13 can’t participate in forums and contribute to sites anyway until a parent has given consent…operators who have sites whose focus involves children take care of this before the kid posts…so it seems pretty straightforward to me that provisions will be made to ensure the content is released too if it needs to be. of course i don’t know the all the legalities involved, but bottom line is that David and Anton will.
Facebook and Myspace are very different. Websites that cater specifically to children have legal requirements, such as parental consent and privacy issues that go beyond those of general websites. When children are involved, there is a very real legal argument. If you are under 13, by the way, you cannot use Facebook.
Actually, Erica, David seems to not even think of the legal implications of all of this until someone points them out to him.
I get that it may SEEM like that to you, but clearly David doesn’t write about everything he thinks about – and this is a very broad thinking man.
Who’s asking for a kitten from Simone?
A kitten would be a thrill for my little dog. No kidding, he grew up with cats. He loves them and does not understand why the ones he meets here do not seem to appreciate his presence …
Let’s not let fear of the lawyers crush dreams and aspirations before they’ve even had a chance to flower. That said – Jim does have a point (or two), in that there are some formidable obstacles. Nevertheless, others have done things like this, even here. Friends of mine started a foundation about fifteen years ago which very specifically uses photography with kids, particularly in gritty urban neighborhoods.The foundation survives, and yes, photographs taken by 9 year olds actually get published, some even on the internet. It’s not insurmountable (but the effort has been grueling so far as I can tell). Take a look at http://www.makeabetterplace.org/index.html – this is the place I’m talking about.
That said: I think that David’s talking less about photography as therapy here, and more about liberating the intense creativity of kids, and giving them a vibrant platform. Even a cursory Googling of kids and photography brings up a number of sites and venues, so the challenge is less likely to be around publishability etc, and more around how to create that compelling, focused environment that brings kids’ creativity to the fore.
i need a Simone’s kitty…
as long as its blurry…
big hug
http://picasaweb.google.com/innerspacecowpanos/TIFTIFS?authkey=Gv1sRgCNLn1qnSp-S2Iw#slideshow/5403918606743615938
@ someone please in BKK: Can someone swicth off David, he has more stamina that the bunny of Energizer… !!(laughing. Great idea!! Having a whole community of photographers from 2 years to 99…amazing. What a present for the 1st anniversary!!
I’m totally in with this idea. I’m calling the spanish burn community all over the globe. If the project goes by, I’ll help in the translation of some text from English to Spanish, so kids can read that easily without the helps of parents.
Who’s IN??
C U,
Patricio
Damn, Panos! You are trendsetter with your blurry cat!
Photography’s newest obsession: bokeh in the FOREGROUND! Yep, everyone will soon be comparing the bokeh of various lenses. “I like how my Summicron renders the foreground out-of-focus, to separate it from my subject, the background.”
:-) Big hug!
sorry, should have read “comparing the bokeh of various lenses on close objects”. :-)
ALL…
Doug mentioned TED talks… reminded me of an fantastic talk given by Sir Ken Robinson
all about children, creativity, the education system and the future…
Under the circumstances i think it’s a must watch for everyone…
http://www.ted.com/index.php/talks/ken_robinson_says_schools_kill_creativity.html
it runs for almost 20 mins, but it’s well worth your time, it’s extremely inspiring, very funny, thought provoking… and totally relevant.
DAH… perfect in-flight inspiration…
Hillary, wonderful post.
I’m with ya on that one. Count me in.
A.
p.s. my household has a 3 month old puppy and an 11 year old who already takes better pictures with a Pentax K1000 than with a point & shoot. Can we join the Circus? :)
Justin, re: foreground bokeh, check out Kyunghee Lee’s essay _Island_ here (just search to find it).
A.
Sam, that is a great TED post….I can’t remember how I found it some time ago, but I actually have a quote from it on my FB page and in my notebook…
“If you’re not prepared to be wrong, you’ll never come up with anything original.” – Sir Ken Robinson
Good light, All
A.
Some time back I made some comments about how people should be careful about what they say and how they act in an online forum since you never know who may be reading and also because google search can find old comments easily.
The website Aphotoeditor has a post that talks about perception and how it relates to a clients decision to hire you…. An interesting read.
http://www.aphotoeditor.com/2009/11/17/perception-is-everything/
Like I say, the web makes everything worthless.
Photography’s newest obsession: bokeh in the FOREGROUND! comonly known as why is my lens back focusing
Any chance that Simone’s kittens would be able to carry extra batteries/CF cards strapped to their backs? If so, I could use one.
Simone is pregnant. So is burn…giving birth to Circus.
In the case of Simone I recommend spaying!
I think the entire idea sounds great. I don’t want to sound negative but my only concern is how David and Anton are going to be able to continue their own work? There are only 24 hours in a day. But then again, they certainly know how much they can handle!
Meanwhile on the home front; just found out I missed out on the Creative NZ funding. Oh well, wasn’t banking on it and you’ve got to be in to win. I think what sunk my project was that it was too “commercial” Time to put Plan B into action.
Anyway; just been notified by email that my new Holga is on its way to me. So there you go; a silver lining! Or should I say a shiny Chinese black plastic lining!
DAH wrote: “i always wondered why Allard never went beyond his assignment and create a book on the Blues..almost a crime….yes, some of his best work..but Bill never works unless on assignment, which is strange for such a fine photographer…a loss to be sure that he did not go back down and do that book….i leaned on him several times, as did all his friends, to no avail…”
Even stranger still given that I saw an interview somewhere where Allard said he could have spent a lifetime photographing the blues … but … he is certainly still taking pictures, yes?
“what could be more worthy in life than the passing on of knowledge to the next in line??….leads to the big warm all around….give it away is what i say…please do it the first chance you get…this time may come sooner than you think….”
David is so right about this. After having had the good fortunate to have been mentored by him on my self portrait project, “Falling Into Place,” I came to the realization that I could never pay DAH back for all that he’d given me so freely. The best I could do was to hope the day would come when I could pass on the gift by mentoring someone else.
My opportunity came much sooner than I could have imagined, sooner than I felt ready, to be honest. But I’m so glad I said yes when a friend asked me to mentor his wife with her newly-purchased Canon 50D. Diana and I have been working together weekly for the past four months, and I have learned so much from her! Like me, she started from scratch in terms of technical knowledge but was brimming over with a “can-do” spirit that has taken her so far so fast. This 50 year-old woman lives on a farm and takes me seriously when I tell her to take shots from every possible angle. She’s shot more times while lying in chicken shit than you can imagine! Her ingenuity takes my breath away. Age doesn’t matter; it’s all about excitement in the doing.
So when David talks about extending Burn’s mission to children, I am behind him all the way. My concern, like Ross’s, is how to accomplish this without stretching David and Anton to the breaking point. But like a circus, circusmagazine.org will succeed if there are many players in the ring. Together we can pull this off. So let’s figure out how to share our diverse and complimentary gifts with youngsters across the globe.
Patricia
“If you’re not prepared to be wrong, you’ll never come up with anything original.” – Sir Ken Robinson
I keep tellin’ ya Andrew, originality for it’s own sake is highly over-rated…much/most of the best recent work here is traditional, latest essay as an example.
Patricia
Yes, when we mentor, we learn at least as much from our students as they from us. I’ve always mentored, most recently my son Robin, 27, who is working with me now at my studio.
I’m anxious to see this project develop.
I’m a big fan of “kids with cameras” http://www.kids-with-cameras.org/bornintobrothels/book.php The film “Born into Brothels”, for those not familiar with it, documents the lives of children in an Indian red light district, and a project in which they are given cameras with which to document their lives. It is very moving. It is also a testament to the power of the photograph, and the power of a single person to make a positive change in someones life. You can purchase a book of the childrens photos on the web-site for $65.00. It is well worth it, and the proceeds go towards the project.
Jim, I’m surprised you didn’t lobby for a different name than Circus. Perhaps, ‘Crash”
Then you could be reading ‘CRASH’ and ‘BURN’ . :>))
a response from a fottreen year old……. ahh yea it’s a good idea, I like it but you know,it will be still run by you older people………….it’s not the same, it’s not REALLY ours
Andrew
Just watched the Robinson lecture, great stuff.
Welcome Circus !!!
Brilliant idea – besides passing on to the core value of passing to the next in line, teenagers drive the internet, teenagers are the internet. They make it possible for MySpace, Digg, and such. It is really a circus out there and the programme is voted and decided by them. They have a mushy brain and it is an advantage in this case. They are the unmolested brains with originality of only they can match.
Applauds.
David Alan Harvey – you are genius.
I wish I could see you saying for the first time “It’s gonna be a circus” and laughing…. and then Anton mumbling in his french accent – circus, circus, circus …. hmmmmm. wait, CIRCUS – THAT’S MAGNIFICENT. MERDE -> check the name, check the name ….
I wish a Burning Circus to us all!!!
Sam,
great link and a great speech! Thank you for a big laugh! What Ken Robinson says is so, so true!
Please watch!
Enjoy the day!
Reimar
teaching kids is endlessly rewarding and so much simpler than teaching older people…
the best work which the ones i used to teach produced, (expelled and ‘troubled’ 13-15yr olds), was undoubtedly from their home lives.. as a way of gently enabling the group to talk about their personal experiences through photos – and without having to directly speak.. first lessons in relative reality.
perhaps there would be parents prepaqred to allow that to be seen, yet most likely not.. it was never allowed to be seen outside the group.. some of it made billinghams work seem tame, especially from one who regularly came into class stoned – once on acid..
hmm.
apart from that there was some excellent work involving joiners, montage and their neighborhood which of course would not have the same challange to publish.
it’s a great idea and with the free thought and ‘play’ attitude which so many adults seem to loose to ego and ambition it can potentially be a more interesting place.
obsessive snapping as a youngster produces a great deal of work.. in fact tor capas new nursery teaches digital photography from the age of 1 yr, with water and shock resistant cameras.. they love it.. project it onto a big screen.. just as i did at collage with students in my last job.
give it 6 months and i will encourage him to make a submission :o)
ENJOY bkk david and ketchup soon.
david
The last time I was in Vanuatu I had the chance to look at some work done by kids from the squatter settlements. After they had got the “smile and snap each other” pics out of the way did some fantastic work.
I don’t understand circus as a flickr for kids. I do understand circus to be like burn, for 15+ youth.
Certainly, parents need to allow this to the kids.
The pictures are – to my understanding – curated, i.e. someone viewed them before they go online.
Reading some comments here, makes me think that “children” and “photography” leads to a kind of one-way thinking. This is a real pity.
I was moderator/admin for several years in a huge photo community, which also has youth and kids online.
I don’t see that many issues, however these must be handled in a transparent way that the participants and parents know what it is about and what happens next.
Yes, I can see it now. David posts on Circus, “O.K., kids. Anton and I are going to be in the Australian outback for six weeks with no internet. Ya’ll play nice, now.”
Australian outback for six weeks with no internet……………. we do have internet out there . We dock the lambs’ tails and replace them with little satellite discs
Yeah, but can I download episodes of “The Prisoner” on my iphone out there? Lambs with satellite discs for tails are so “yesterday.”
so “yesterday.”……. not really as it is all about carbon trading the discs double up as solar energy units thus neutralise the methane gasses produced. and the farmer pockets the cash
no nrrd to download that’s were the “The Prisoner” retirement village is situated 54 klicks east of Bullamakenka as the galah flies
Circus Possible Successful Format
a suggestion
Dear all, I think that in order to distance this new venture from forums and blogs like Flickr and others, we should maybe see Circus as a possibility for younger keen photographers of not only exhibit their work online (thing already existing in flickr, myspace and so on…) but giving them the chance to have their work viewed and commented by a rotary panel of chosen burnians or more established photographers so that they can be mentored without having to attend expensive and far away workshops dedicate to older and richer people.
By presenting Circus this way, not only this could really make a difference in the vast panorama of online photo based communities, but it could have strong potentials of being financed by various institutions.
It would, more or less, take the format of a continuos photo contest, without the necessity for an award, without a deadline and open to all, like Burn.
If This project would start successfully, and carry on being so, with a bit of effort (and/or with a bit of finances) we could start this virtual and real network of small but effective workshops. We could bring together youngsters from all over the world and they could learn from one another.
I have already written on my previous comment that I do work with young people in London teaching them photography, and the institution that is supporting these kind of workshops is very keen in seeing further follow-ups, specially in the international scene, that would only help doing things better.
Any comment is welcome!
Thanks guys
Circus …the online magazine for the REAL EMERGING PHOTOGRAPHERS…..
young photographers aged 15 and under…..not a kids magazine…the opposite….
——————————————————————————
Excellent..
time for some original photography…
enough with all those “blurry kittens” from disturbed adults…
time for some new ideas coming from innocent kids…
great idea
lets do it
big hug yall from the city of Mustaches..
:)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WxDesCYVmM
ohhh..ive been travelling on this road too long……….
I was about to travel north today… but i felt so tired…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDVUPi56WT0&feature=related
songs like this i need to play for “circus”…no more rap
:)
Gordon
first, props for posting that TED link go to Sam – I just remembered seeing it and actually rewinding and writing down that quote….
You said “originality for it’s own sake is highly over-rated”….I agree in one context…but I think about that quote in the context of finding our own (original) voice….and that we can find our voice by attempting to copy (isn’t that one of the basic artistic approached as one learns?), but that we can’t be afraid to follow our hearts when seeking that voice…or be afraid of making mistakes along the way….
To tie this back to the child-like approach and innocence and lack of fear of failure, if you will….I once heard an author talk about being born physically disabled, impoverished, black, in apartheid S. Africa…and how his dream was to learn to sail….
As he recounts it, you need to remember one thing about children…they often don’t accept “no”, and will repeat the same question even after being told “no” several times (all of us who are parent likely recognize this trait :)….he tells of being about 11, and going to the Royal Yacht Club in Johannesburg…and simply walking up to people and asking “will you take me sailing?”…so that it went like this:
“will you take me sailing” “no”…
“will you take me sailing” “no”…
“will you take me sailing” “no”…
“will you take me sailing” “no”…
“will you take me sailing” “no”…
and on and on for over a week….asking everyone he saw…and then finally…
“will you take me sailing” “yes, I will”
As adults…what makes so many of us lose that ability to go after our dream with that singularity of purpose, disregarding all of the “no” answers we get….do we at some point learn that “no” means give up?
The end of the story is that he took that opportunity to learn all he could, and persevered in the face of amazing challenges…and ultimately made it into the elite world of solo yacht racing, and has sailed alone around the world in a sailboat he built himself….true story.
We can all re-learn this from children…and help them….and in doing so help ourselves…
Good light to all this Wednesday…and safe travels if you are on the road…
A.
p.s. The author/speaker who told that story is Neal Petersen, now a successful motivational speaker. I don’t usually go for this kind of stuff, but I highly recommend his first book “Journey of Hope Merchant”. Also, you can see some clips of his motivational speaking seminars here…especially check out the introduction, treasure chest, childhood, learning to navigate, and bottom of the world…
http://www.no-barriers.com/videoPlayer/
this is where i think i am…:)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQObOsQxKDo
homesick.. today…losengelitis strikes back..
Panos….know the feeling….
Now, take your camera and go stroll, and capture that feeling….remove it from yourself into your work…
At the very least, you can get out and have a good greek beer for me :)
A.
.know the feeling….
weird, numbing feeling..
aint it?
I think the Circus magazine idea is good as long as Burn can keep on Burning with the same speed as it has.
I bet there will be more single photographs at Circus…
But I don’t quite see the same room for tough and honest criticism in the Circus comment section as here under the essays. You got to speak the same language as the kids do, or else they won’t learn anything, and if they don’t learn anything the purpose is gone. But as long as people comment with an easy language and without being over-complicated and over-analyzed it might work out fine.
David B
I’ve sent you an e-mail. Need a quick reply!
“weird, numbing feeling..
aint it?”
indeed it is….i know it sometimes when I’m traveling – having to travel alone, usually not knowing anyone in the city where I am….
numbing, empty, detached…
last picture I took while in that mood is going to conversesrouge.com right now…..
I think many of you may have gotten a bit off topic…What about the conceptual direction photography such as Bobby Davidson’s work goes? I think its something worthwhile being investigated. Asking ourselves questions about the nature and function of photography is relevant now more than ever. All of his photo work seems to have a conceptual bend to it and its awesome!
bjarte..
done.. see you soon.. look forward to seeing your new work.
d
BURN and CIRCUS family …
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4xjPODksI08&feature=channel
Let’s ..BURN the CIRCUS
VIVA…good energy BURNIANS…new blood is coming…open the windows…let the fresh air
IN…!!!
PANOS,it might be the mousaka… the wine is ready and wild pork in the oven …
What not to BURN !!!
I agree. Let’s burn the circus, preferably with the annoying little brats inside.
I agree. Let’s burn the circus, preferably with the annoying little brats inside.
———————————————————————————–
i know its a joke.
i hope its a joke.
better be a joke…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUspb0gFprI
The Game- One Blood
Andrew B. I’ve posted this once before but thought I’d re-post it as it has a common thread to your sailing story…
“The youth gets together his materials to build a bridge to the moon, or, perchance, a palace or temple on the earth, and, at length, the middle-aged man concludes to build a woodshed with them”
Henry David Thoreau
ok…ALL..
GREAT NEWS…
I JUST “discovered” the new “next big thing”…not for BURN…
BUT FOR CIRCUS…
A YOUNG PHOTOGRAPHER… 8 YEARS OLD…
LINK SOONEST
I hadn’t seen this yet..check it out..from Oaxaca.
http://davidalanharveyworkshops.com/
I agree. Let’s burn the circus, preferably with the annoying little brats inside.
Panos – it IS a joke. :)
Where is the link?
And where is Vink?
panos..
this was taken by a five year old..
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_D7BO-iIFIl0/SGEyROiMqaI/AAAAAAAAAAc/CRcOSXZBmx8/s1600-h/000026.JPG
:o)
AKAKIE,
“Kids are wonderful, but I like mine barbecued.”
Bob Hope
(to be perceived as a joke) …Blues, booze and BBQ…and Kids
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIvka3SSv9Y&feature=related
P.S the link is kinda mess…BUT bare with me :)))
LOVE ,LOVE, LOVE…today we drink Cranberry Juice
HAIK,
VINK went for a leak
when PANOS is looking for the link
DAH is doing the Jet lag dance
ROSSY talks about the youngs
EMCD is always on the spot
DAVIDB is looking for scotch
and I left behind doing the rolling globe…
P.S KATIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE FONSECA wake up …street fighter
I can’t find a word for the CIRCUS people…CIRCUSIANS …hmmmm
LOVE
David B…:)))))
Damn , thats insane…….dope…
amazing…
VIVA CIRCUS………..
THOSE KIDS…they have a lot to teach…us..
all of us……….
my oh my…….
( i thought i knew.. didnt know shit…….)
Blues, booze and BBQ…and Kids
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIvka3SSv9Y&feature=related
or….
or…
One bourbon
One Scotch
One Beer…….
Civi..man.. u r a detective…….
Our PATRICIA, REIMAR ,VIVEK, HERVE, BOBBY and MARINA …FELIX, DARK KIDS, TOR CAPA, GORDONL,
MY GRACIE, AITKEN…come on BURNIANS…bring your baby CIRCUSIANS …buy them a polaroid and let
them show us what they see !!!
I TRUST the new generation…this is a good one .
p.S BBQ anyone ???:)))
I am just a Civilian…hmmm…
P.S there is an opening …CIRCUS is looking for CIVILIAN …
WHAT NOT TO LOVE !!!
Haik..
i saved the link for the CIRCUS launch..
remember DAH…asked me to practice PATIENCE…
and as JAY-Z once said:
“I have no patience…and i hate waiting…”
same here..same here…
we have a great emerging photog coming up soonest…( less than 10 years old.Wayyyyyyyyyy less…:))))))
very very very young…a talent..
i will submit that essay to DAH ,ASAP…
but im not gonna ruin the element surprise ..
ahhhhhh life is good…
i really cant wait to see Tor Capa with a camera in his hands..
the game starts again..
right about time..
right when i thought that things are getting kinda boring over here…
but of course DAH had another ace in his sleeve..
Motorhead doing “Ace Of Spades” on The Young Ones
Page 10 “Photography and the Art of Seeing” Freeman Patterson.
“A third major sight barrier is the labelling that results from familiarity. It was Monet, the painter, who said that in order to see we must first forget the name of the things we are looking at”
“When we are children we think primarily in pictures, not words. But this approach is played down when we go to school. The basic analytical skills (reading, writing and arithmetic) are impressed upon us as being more important than the appreciation of direct sensory experience, so we come to depend less and less on the parts of the brain that encourages visual thinking”
“By Grades Three and Four, many of us no longer regard painting or drawing as being very important; we stop visualizing things freely, and put word labels on them instead. This pattern becomes so firmly established that, by adolescence, we hasten to catalogue everything we see. We rule out visual exploration, and seldom discover the myriad facets of each object”
Page 64 “Photography and the Art of Seeing” Freeman Patterson.
“When a child thinks of drawing his mother, he may intuitively abstract love as one of her most distinguishing traits, and in drawings he leaves out many of the physical details of her body, but not the one that counts- her smile”
“The child abstracts and then selects-quite naturally. The result is an honest and clear expression of the mother’s attitude and the child’s response. Photographers can learn a great deal from children’s art?
Meant to be “Photographers can learn a great deal from children’s art” – (no question mark…)
Participants of Circus arent circusians. does not sound well.
1. CIRCUSOIDS
2. CIRCUSITES
vote
HAIK, the wizard of BURN…
Does this sound good …???
VIVA FotoCIRCUS…
P.S 1. Steroids
2. Websites…
ai,MR.HARVEY…it’s getting harder and harder for my ESL …:)))
Haik – Call them “Carnies”
the only reason i “hate” CIRCUS is my insecurity…
im afraid that those young punks are “better” than me…
mirror, mirror on the wall plz tell me that im prettier than them all…
mirror what???????????
wrinkles???????
no, no.no…my mirror is broken…
i have no wrinkles…
me? im perfect..
im young
im creative
im perfect
:)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZ5Z676sM5A
jigga what?, jigga who?
night night y’all from the mustachioland..( or athens )…( or the dirtiest , nastiest city in this universe )
haha Panos I remember the first time I played that song, uncensored, after hearing it all over the radio … I was with my parents and was like oh sh** this song is dirrrtier than i thought. what if we had to censor our work for the masses, and you couldn’t see the REAL images until you bought the book/looked at my website, etc??
DAH
Circus is a crazy good idea, but i have to say that i would put the age limit up to 17, 17’s are still teens and totally lost in every way (at least i was when 17 ”””” at pigs in front of my *** (perhaps accidentally). loved to be innocently, arrogantly, and visually (still paying cause of my words) fucked up, even my *** said few days ago that some good comes always from shit) which means that the photos of 17’s (and under) are also total “stream of consciousness”. Hate those words (simplifies things too much) but i think that they (badger etc.) made those words up to make things more understandable for anglicans. to define how’s life in photographs, too defining, too easy, too this, too that. choose one. anyway.
peace
j
circus is definetly a bad ass kool idea
my nly wry is hw r d oldr generation plnnin to kp trck of the cmnts n d sms lingo ??
David,
I imagine dreams from the name of “Circus”.
It would be very valuable and precious work for each other
I’m with you!
best wishes,
Kyunghee
17 sounds about right as boys are still preoccupied with pocket billiards…… at 15 the game is still at its peak
…9:20am yall..
moving up north today.. in a greyhound bus…
after all those years of driving ( only ) now its time
to see the real world…just downloaded all magnum podcasts
on the iphone and im ready…
leaving the mustaches behind for now..
i need fresh clean air…which is everywhere and anywhere
but athens…
big hug
better move east http://www.etrouko.com.au/iman.htm
I would suggest West..no offense IMANTS…
I am wearing my silver pan and I am facing west…where are you JIMMY ???
and yes …thank you DIMITRIST…you and your football essay brought good luck to the Greek team
SUNSHINE…beautiful weather…I LOVE YOU ALL
Give me a smile and now shoot …
stuck again….
not east , not west..not even north..
its a long long story but..
im stuck in the mustache city ,…
and im a nurse.. yup u heard that right..
im with a 9 year old… the kid has extreme flu syptoms..
and i dont know what to do…
im shooting a family, staying with them..mom & dad at work..
and im the nurse…high fever.. im kinda paranoid of what flu..
which strain..etc..i dont worry about me..
i worry about the kid…
im afraid i need to take him in the emergency…
love you all.. wish me luck..
coz i dont know what the fuck im doing…
ok..over & out
Breath and focus mate…
don’t panic …hmmm…at least don’t show that you are in panic mode…
We are sending good energy …and throw the toxins out …
you will be fine …
…things looking better now..fever subsides…
my voodoo prayers seem to be working..
civi U DA MAN
Panos…
don’t panic stay cool, remember like Fonzy, be cool…
first look for a medicine cupboard…
you need a thermometer to check how bad it is. or ask a neighbour.
37c /98.4f is normal – oral is best way to test, otherwise check under the armpit (1 – 2 minute)
(if it is over 104f (40c) get help or go to hospital, but try and call the parents first…)
Here are some ways that a child with a fever can be made more comfortable:
Dress child in light clothing.
Give them small quantities of clear fluids such as water, weak tea, or diluted soda water or lemonade to drink at frequent intervals. (Lemonade is too strong for a child with gastroenteritis with diarrhoea — it must be diluted.)
make sure that they are drinking enough to avoid dehydration.
Give paracetamol in the correct and recommended dose (liquid form is best), with no more than five or six doses every 24 hours.
You can also use ibuprofen.
Asprin must not be given to treat fever in children. It can be seriously harmful for the child.
stay relaxed, it will help the child a lot, they need to rest…
all the best, it will be fine
Sam..
thank u… following your directions…
so far victory…the dis fever is down to 38.9
from 40 an hour ago…
thank u sam
thank u burn
( always there when u need it…what an amazing community we created..thanks David…)
the kids fever i meant…
SAM HARRIS,
ououaou…I LOVE YOU BURN…I am in awe…
BURN it’s working…
PANOS ,you did it,…and yes, please no aspirin… SAM is DA MAN…
P.S after the ordeal …u deserve some cranberry juice…on the CIRCUS !!!
Kids..stay away from drugs…
its not cool….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXiAMfjybx4
GUN CLUB
The Leaving Trains were an American indie rock band from Los Angeles, California. Founded in 1980 by Falling James Moreland
Leaving Trains- women are evil
Panos
Los Angelitis is a rare and extremely worrying condition. How anyone can miss this place is beyond the scope of most medical practitioners.
How are you, Malaka?
Jared,
how u dare ask a celebrity how it feels?
listen to this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6lIXpmIB7DA
:))
Jared?
How is the molesting van? :-)
How are you?
Where are you?
I still have Panos’ lights :).
Haiko!
Tacos sometime soon. For Panos. To celebrate his celebrity.
I’m swamped this week putting out my college magazine. Oh and been working on this new thing. Released a trailer for it today.
jared, that looks cool. I’m intrigued…
Thanks Peter, it’s a fun experiment with some like-minded, enthusiastic people. I’ll let everyone know when we’re up-and-running towards the New Year.
Haik: Vink was in the bushes, away from the internet for a few days…Taking pictures.
http://johnvink.com/story.php?title=Cambodia_The_Last_Chance
Jared…:)
AMAZING…AS GOOD AS the EARTHLINKS…………
SEVERELY IMPRESSED…………………………………………
speechless…
right on
bravo
dope
DAH: there is a bunch of kids taking pictures of their life at “the Building” here in Penh. They had an exhibition at Bophana Center and some of it was quite interesting. It is an initiative of On Photography Cambodia. http://www.onphotographycambodia.com/Home_Page.html
Maria Stott is running the place: info@onphotographycambodia.com
John..
damn..
i cant open the link..:(
i mean the “last chance” link..
i do see the last one (kids) u posted though:)
ok…cool..nevermind..
now the link opens..
thank u..
big hug
Glad you like it Panos. :)
Was a community endeavor, but edited by the one and only Kramer O’Neil.
Strangers no more…
when there is a chance
at all
let’s explore the Building
where must be a change
for All…
gobsmacked…!!!
THANK YOU
jared..
i didnt just liked it..
i loved it..
i recognized most of your photos..
and the edit, the sequence,,,
awesome, created a killer story..
bravo malaKA
:))))))))))))))))))))
maybe the target group for circus looks more like kids like this 13-year old, who works as pro since 3 years:
http://www.newsleader.com/article/20091119/NEWS01/91118011/1002
Hello Mr Vink.
I like photos from the bushes – especially wet converses :).
http://conversesrouges.com/2009/10/06/converses-wild-wild-west/
JARED – yes yes yes.
tacos.
let’s celebrate Panos’ newly acquired celebrity status. We can pose with the Moustache Guy to honor Panos’ fame.
when? weekend?
i loved the trailer. very well done. Strange.rs rock.
There was a gap of 7 hours and 12 min in between comments.
this is to fill that gap.
Haik —
We can try the weekend, but I get out of work really late. Weekdays are generally better for me, so if you can tuck the girls in and sneak out, that would be cool.
Jared – sure- let’s do a weekday. txt. msg. call. eml.
FOLKS,
This is how Jared _____ with STRANGE.RS :)
http://conversesrouges.com/2009/10/10/ever-thought-how-those-photos-from-jared-are-born/
A good example of the fruits of childhood inspiration: http://lens.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/11/20/showcase-81/
Circus is a brilliant idea. My daughter is six, has a camera, and would love to participate. Can’t wait to see how all those relatively untainted minds see.
Jared..;)
back door man?
second.page
:)
im impressed by your resume my friend..
were u photographing/recording all those wars?
i would love to see some raw materials from the
“insiders” point of you…
anyway
big hug
& im glad u made it back home safe, inspired and with a creative mind..
keep it up
“My daughter is six, has a camera, and would love to participate. Can’t wait to see how all those relatively untainted minds see.”
Untainted minds? Right. Children are bombarded with thousands of commercial images every day. I doubt you can find untainted minds unless they are in an undiscovered tribe deep in an undiscovered rain forest. Besides, there will be no six year olds on Harvey’s web site once he talks to the lawyers.
Hey yall..
tonight im photographing the legendary band DEAD MOON..on & back stage..
“A new kid on the block,
and he’s taking my place,
walking on my grave…”
ladies and gents…the DEAD MOON…in the city of mustaches..tonight..
Jim..:)
why so sensitive..
why lawyers?
what would be that illegal?
why anyone that is dealing with a kid
has to be michael jackson ?
i really dont get it…
why schools are legal and “circus” cant?
why cigarettes are legal and pot not?( except from venice beach of course )
viva venice beach
viva circus
Where our California Medical Marijuana comes from.
viva Mendocino..
plz, get educated here:
Jim your dreams may come true the circus could turn into a site for pushy parents……… “My wife is giving birth to twins on Thursday, we bought them matching holgas please earmark them for a essay in April 2014. they are brilliant
ps I am not the dad we got the sperm from a famous photographer………yep you guessed it, that’s him!
Jim, Sure kids are bombarded with commercial images everyday,(I’m sure the paper you work for is responsible for this to some extent – the grim juggling act of editorial content and securing advertisers who are rapidly jumping ship to the net.) this has nothing to do with being tainted (unless that is your view of being tainted.). Even the most horribly neglected children have an interest, perception and enthusiasm for the world and its wonders that adults lose through experience and scepticism.
A good friend is a child psychologist, who is constantly assigned to horrific cases of abuse and neglect, he is always in awe of the hope and innocents that is still inside these kids.
This comes across in pictures kids take, they have a different and valid perspective of the world which sometimes we could do well to remember. Take a kid to photograph some of the stories in Africa, that you are so demeaning of and they might just be able to show you a different view of the subject.
Cheers
Ian
Panos,
it probably has nothing to do with michael jackson type things and everything to do with legal issues connected to minors, as far as things like property ownership go. Im not a lawyer but it is plain to see that there is a WIDE spectrum of issues here.
JAMAICAN HERBS
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHUHAEtKH5c&NR=1
Rafal…
maybe im a little naive..
but i cant see much of a problem mentoring kids or inspiring them..
perents will be around anyways…
but then again..i could be wrong…legal issues never been my forte..
big hug from the city of mustaches
peace
All…
celebrity saga continues…
TV interview tomorrow..yes ( heard that right )…
i cant wait to spread the word about BURN and baby circus…
this time on the national mustache tv…
our community deserves that…
my name will be Apostle panos…
laughing
Fundamentally no, but realistically? It is going to be a headache. And ofcourse Im sure it will make it much more difficult to get 3rd parties to get involved in Circus. The problem may also be that there might be a spillover effect to Burn.
pushy parents or pushy teachers – i’m sure there will be submissions from both, yet i’m also certain there will be a wealth of work from teens n pre-teens who are web savvy and photo passionate.. flickr users.. after school clubs.. blahblah so on
jim..
i think a great deal will come down to the content of the photography.. in some cases you may well be right and others you will not be..
one way or another i’m confident there will be a bunch of good photos which will not have too many difficult morals to overcome..
many schools in england have darkrooms and teach snapping as part of the arts.. digital photography is in schools everywhere..
i can’t see jill n jackies slumber party or bob n bens happy-slappin snaps getting through the circus edit.. any more than they would be in the edit in a school show.
reserving judgement – as is always best.
There is a big difference between schools and Circus though, isn’t there? Schools do not provide a platform for publishing work. I’m not sure what the laws are vis a vis minors and property ownership but such issues will have a strong application to Circus that they wouldn’t to schools just teaching photography. For example if someone published my work under their name I would probably have a legal case against not only that person but Burn as well. There are issues like this one must think about.
Our schools here would probably have to officially sanction circus before students could directly be involved. I have never shown any students on line nor would I ever do it on my own whim ……….. too big a minefield.
david, my take on DAH is that he is not going to want to be a nanny to a bunch of kids. Seriously. Which is what I mean about lawyers. Any forum for kids photography is going to have to be heavily moderated, photos carefully sourced, etc. DAH’s hectic lifestyle certainly isn’t conducive to being a full time nanny, so things are going to be much more complicated then Burn, even if you discount the legal minefield catering to children online imposes.
Jim Powers,
“Untainted minds? Right. Children are bombarded with thousands of commercial images every day. I doubt you can find untainted minds unless they are in an undiscovered tribe deep in an undiscovered rain forest.”
Jim…
my daughters aren’t bombarded by thousands of commercial images on any day… and rarely have been. firstly we don’t have a tv, secondly we live in a rural setting with lots of trees, wild flowers, frogs, rabbits, ladybirds, parrots… i don’t know what kids you have contact with, if any, but don’t you think your being a little bit too sour, even by your own standards? come on, lighten up dude…
O.K. You and the other guy that doesn’t have a TV are exempted.
Simone is pregnant…now what??
—————————–
Damned! Another teenage pregnancy due to an absent parent, most likely… :-)))
Kids and cams
———————-
Great idea. Kids are cool photographers. Untainted, no, but that leaves plenty of other qualities, plus all the stuff they do not have to struggle to unlearn. Proof is, all these color pictures I mastered, some 10 years ahead of Egglestone, Meyerovich, and others, happened when I was a kid (already)….
“O.K. You and the other guy that doesn’t have a TV are exempted.”
and all the kids at Waldorf schools, as they have a no tv policy…for a start. Where I have been living tv for kids is very demode, Jim..in fact in some progressive circles you just might get shunned for letting your kids watch tv.
but that’s neither here nor there, really. little warped minds can have great creative inspiration too :)
Yeah, Erica, maybe a pregnant cat essay.
(un-shun) Jim, hence the word “relatively” (re-shun)
Panos,
Thanks, man. Not documenting but participating. I do have a bit of video footage, but it needs editing. Maybe I’ll get around to making something worthwhile of it and post it after the holidays.
ALL…
midnite update from underground in Kabukicho, Tokyo…
http://www.antonkusters.com/2009/11/20/taka-san/
hugs to all… i would be nothing without BURN
[ps this one’s for you david b mate…]
anton the great.. that fantastic news, really good stuff.. could have been way dark..
i had no idea your fixer is in guns n roses .. top man
stay safe and talk soon..
“i would be nothing without BURN”
i don’t believe you.
…the dark alleys here have brought me many things but not the ability for a sensible answer – but mostprobably you are right.
actually you have been as long as i remember :-)
2.30 am here and more creativity awaits..
Not sure if this has been posted yet, but here’s GAry Numan performing “Cars” with NIN. Filmed by Rob Sheridan with the Canon 5D Mark II. Possibly the coolest thing I’ve ever seen.
brian – you’ll maybe dig this.. produced by one of the many trying to bring nottingham, back in the old country, to the peak of it’s potential..
http://www.leftlion.co.uk/video.cfm/id/9
and ANTON – for your sleepless morning..
you are NOT 15peter20
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5LP5-AjCCNw
the thing is – you are doing it.. doing it without being obnoxious.. boastful.. judgmental.. verbose.. loud.. arrogant.. bombastic.. swaggering.. vainglorious.. abominable.. reprehensible.. repellent.. eminent.. odious.. or.. you know.. up-yer-sen.
it’s all about play and you’re playing with what you’re doing.. quietly winding your way down the lane.. betraying talent.
and, as a stranger to a stranger as we once were, you were above kind and generous of thought when we met and when our tor capa dropped out of beate… he has a viking mobile which has caused many giggles because of you.
as our bob would say – be a good chap first, then lift the camera up.
you would be nothing without burn?
nah. ridiculous.
alejandro chaskielburg would be struggling without you..
spend your time giving others what they need, and what you need will just happen.
(quote some blokme under a tree)
big-ups..
look forward to your new work..
whiskey waiting..
all that jazz.
be brave.. streatch that comfort zone..
bea says ‘hello’.
d
DB. Did you get my email?
Anton. They towed my car away and killed it man.
J
David, if that’s their first project, I’d love to see where they go next. Thanks for sharing.
WE would BE nothing without ANTON
ANTON,ANTON,ANTON…
Can we say we LOVE you???
We miss you …
Hugs to you,to your family,to your Japanese friends…
skype me… to have your bed ready …yes, no more couches !!!
P.S As DAVIDB said…whiskey waiting …
john big man – NO..
NOOOOOOOOOO..not the merc.. the rust-bucket of love..
tragic..
i have had a quick glance, is all john.. i love the idea of speakers corner though and your approach is excellent.. going to drift though it more later – just been so busy ..
lots of snaps grabbed me and i thoughht – are you shooting bnw film and scanning? from print or neg?
very decent..
actually – bjarte has been up our mountain with some snaps of a traveling dream, which he is going to exhibit..
bjarte?
civi – wine tonight.. infused in spaghetti sauce and sauce in general..
red wine..
big gulps..
panos – how is the kid-os in mostach-os?
fever is a panic..
i did.
now i just cuddle im.
he laughs..
as long as they are ‘themselves’, their tolerance is unbelievable.
much better than us junkies.
yes.
d
PANOS,
it seems that JOHNYG. had a problem with his car…you are the expert…flatbets, wheelifts,
dolly wheels …hmmm
DAVIDB,
makaronia, saltsa, wine,Beate…the night is all yours !!!
BURNIANS…where are you ALL ??? I am so happy cause I am receiving so good energy from you
and MR.HARVEY … wherever you are ,whatever you do…remember we ALL do it as YOU…
Let’s dance …DoAsHarvey …
and yes, CIRCUS will be a challenge …
we will cry , we will celebrate, we will fall in LOVE , we will fart a lot,
we will eat some buggers …BUT …we are fighters !!!
P.S Street fighter…I am waiting …
grr
Seems that the secret to getting really great kid photography, beyond kids that other photographers know, is to reach out to teachers. Every parent thinks their kid is the best, but teachers, at least in Iowa, have a knack for spotting really talented/motivated students. This could be great, but I’m nervous that overzealous parents could become enraged if someone does not get selected to be shown.
Tread carefully.
it’ll be okay brian..
storm in a teacup..
agreed that good teachers see good talent, yet i also believe that a core of young snappers will always be pushing themselves outside of school.. systems.. parents.. just for the ‘whatever’..
they’ll submit and they’ll have joiners.. montages.. multimedia.. over-laid text.. videos.. as well as that sometimes perceived dinosaur of sharply observed documentary..
i don’t think there will be rage or overzealous parents..
just envious burn commenters..
perhaps..
so..
STOP CIRCUS>> parents and pedos will run riot..
lawyers will wash hands in invisible soap..
DOn’t (we) dare!!!
i mean, like.. WTF>>
NO..way
like, yaknow?
she said he said..
BRING ON DA YOOF>>
know hope.
DAVIDB,
“…yet i also believe that a core of young snappers will always be pushing themselves outside of school.. systems.. parents.. just for the ‘whatever’..” yeap
and here in Greece…hmmm…photography at schools???…Speachless :(((
where are you my Greek BURNIANS…???
P.S oh, they are all in Athens …PET SHOP BOYS are in town…PANOS,THODORIS,ZISKAR,STELIOS,etc.etc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InBiaRBUjUs&feature=related
Pet Shop Boys – Love Etc.
to ALL
“…I believe that we can achieve
The love that we need
I believe, call me naïve
Love is for free…”
a friend and i built a darkroom in the art-room cupboard at school then taught the teeecha.
of course –
it’s
going
to
be
all
about
pushy
adults
and
lawyers
because
young
people
cannot
tink
thnk
thik
thin
hink
THINK>>>
Where is WENDY??? hmmmm…
VIVA DB !!! What not to THINK ???
REIMAR…OUR PATRICIA…LASSAL…POMARA…ANDREAC…VIVEK…KATHARINA…GORDONL…
ETC…ETC…KATIE… we need update and your input…
Where are you BURNIANS ???
what if ‘circus’ proves to be no more than a successful outlet for people producing innocuous yet interesting variations on a photographic theme?
Or goes nowhere because nobody has time to do anything with it?
JIMMY,
to be or not to be…
what the heck…bring the beer, I am bringing kontosouvli…
Jim. Seek help.
my dog as a cutout http://www.etrouko.com.au/imiimages.htm
One thing that comes to mind regarding Circus is the importance of finding a way to get past the screening programs that school systems run on their classroom computers. I volunteered from 2001-08 in the art classes in a K-5 school here in Michigan. During that time I was chagrined to find that all the photo blogs and websites I wanted to show the kids were not accessible on their classroom computers. We’ll need to find a way around that because we’ll definitely want teachers to be able to show circusmagazine.org to kids in the classroom.
But I don’t see any of these challenges as insurmountable. I’ve been reading with great interest the responses that have been posted to DAH’s latest idea, and am seeing a great deal of excitement building up. Sure there are those like Jim who see things more critically than most, but we need that kind of feedback to keep our eyes open to potential problems. And yes, there WILL be hurtles to overcome. But hey, isn’t that true with anything new?
To me our biggest challenge is to find a way to collaborate effectively in the set-up and running of Circus. We all know that Burn quickly spread from a tiny spark to a wildfire…and that put way more on DAH’s and Anton’s plates than they should have had to deal with. Before we go too far with Circus, we need to find a way to make Burn more collaborative behind the scenes. And then do the same with Circus.
For now, let’s bring up all the pros and cons we can think of. Now is the time to examine this idea from all sides. But I personally think we’re really onto something…
Patricia
Midnight in Grecoland…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i5Tiqv4Irjs&feature=related
Viva JOHNY,IMANTS,JIMMY,DAVIDB…etc.etc.
I hope you all keep shooting …cause many Civilians are watching and waiting…
ANTIO
burn was/is a great idea.
circus is a great idea too but sadly should stay as one until the day they clone Harvey or Anton
and i mean no puppetry, and certainly not the cutout kind. the real working versions.
* hi patricia
* hi civi
* hi kathee
And if you could get a school to unblock the website, you could not link to any other website and stay approved. Our district allows very limited access to the web for students.
But I don’t see any of these challenges as insurmountable…….it only takes one perceived offensive image and a parent and the site is blocked, the visual arts sites cop heaps. Some time ago a couple of kids I taught did a multimedia thing called “blocked site”
Keep schools out until the circus establishes credibility within the www dot community and then the more conservative element in educational institutions won’t feel threatened. Though individual independent schools have greater say in their wants and needs,taking any educational institution head on will serve no benefit to circus the buggers love to dig their heels in if they are told what and how operate.
seems to be a lot of legal work or advise before harvey can go live.
with everyone – ie anton and harvey heaps and loads of luck
Why would you even want to bring schools,teachers etc into the fray. The kids who are independent creative thinkers do not have a high regard for those types of institutions, it is the freedom from that drudgery they are after. It’s got to be about the individual and the carers/parents take some of the responsibility.
………….it’s the revenge,bullying style of photography that willa problem. Though most teenagers are aware of the illegalities etc few really understand or even bother to think about the consequences. Most of us no different as teens it was all about stuff the consequences and authority, except for goody two shoes down the road and his prissy sister, but she made my heart swim.
Lawsuit waiting to happen.
maybe there will be a couple, but that’s everywhere now
Harvey has too much to lose.
Jim it reads like you are making it your intent
Nah, “Circus” is a diversion for Harvey, a dead end road. Burn is a fledgling project that’s taking all of his and Anton’s free time (what little of that there is). For a lot of reasons, Circus is just a bad idea.
There will be others earmarked to run the site as there will/is be here………..I wouldn’t do it but then again I prefer to teach/tutor etc
First off, I must confess I haven’t read through most of the 2000 plus comments. Secondly, I think Circus is a great idea, though I wouldn’t get your hopes up about the quality of images you are likely to get. Lawsuits? I know nothing about those things. Artistic minded teenagers? I spend a lot of time with them. I think the best way to make it work would be to let teens, high school seniors or juniors at minimum, do most of the work. Finding motivated artistic kids like that here in Brooklyn is not that great a challenge. I can introduce you to some if you like, or their photography teachers. Though I generally agree with Imants about kids wanting to rebel against their schools and teachers, I haven’t seen that so much in photography programs. Those teachers tend to be cool and the students are more likely to worship them than rebel. And who cares if asinine administrators at repressive schools block the website? That mentality is a big reason that an online magazine like Circus would be worthwhile.
I’d point you to some examples, but you you know how it is with kids and how they communicate (not) with the parental units. But here’s one piece I’m aware of, having helped minimally with the editing. I don’t know if it’s in anyway representative of what you might get from kids, but it is the real thing (albeit a video): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uCCxaIoEvcI
You can be as cool as you want but you still are not one of them. I still is great to have a circus style of site unblocked, Other than being a great educational tool it saves the “go home and check out such and such site and we will talk about it tomorrow” caper which is a pain. But hopefully all will emerge in time
Jared,
You have anymore of those slap-o-optimism pills left? Jim needs a doze. I have fingernail growth ones to prevent typing and heavy-armenian-accent injector for screwing with speech to text software. But that’s extreme. He might get fired from texas for latter and forced to become a travel circusator.
Happy friday night from los angeles nerve calming traffic
:)
ALL…
Suggestions please for a pre-photo shoot IPOD PLAYLIST for India.
I’m looking to hear what you like to listen to in the car, train, bus, skateboard, rickshaw…
before you go off to make pictures. Thanks!
For example…corny perhaps but the other night in LA this came on. Seemed very appropriate.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=59anLLEgPp4
Listen to your Heart
“There will be others earmarked to run the site as there will/is be here………..I wouldn’t do it but then again I prefer to teach/tutor etc”
Who is running the site here? DAH and Anton. And if anyone but DAH were hands on running Burn, there would be nobody here. And of course there’s the “I wouldn’t do it, but SOMEBODY will.”
There would be nobody here? running how? Developing? Before burn there was road trips with DAH only.
Why are we here?
CATHY SCHOLL
wat about spanish gangsta rap ?
cathy
lemme knw whn ur hittin india ….. m at viky1310@gmail.com
Vivek,
Will do.
Yes, any kind of music…
I have no doubt that young contributors to Circus will produce some strong content
it irks me to come to somewhat the same conclusions as J.P.
While I don’t see the potential legal issues as insurmountable as he does I agree, to the
point, that to rush in and implement and execute the concept without at least some basic
legal counsel is suicidal.
Anything to do with minors,unreleased content, the internet, and the potential for misinterpretation
of an image(s) is a minefield that requires a little more preparation than appears to be considered.
With that out of the way, I do like the idea and it brings to mind a series of books of black
and white images that were shot by mostly teens/tweens from India,Brazil,and South Africa themed around
specific cities.
The series name escapes me now as I gave gave the books away to a high school photo class but the
content was, generally, as strong and personal, as many books in print by established veterans.
The idea of circus is born. The question now is: can we make this happen? Can we nurish the idea and make it work or are we going to kill it?
The pros and cons as I see it. To educate people, to further their creative scope is the best and perhaps most rewarding thing you can do. I teach students of the age 20 and older and I only do it because it is fun for me to see them discover the secrets of a camera obscura or when the light bulb goes on in their heads and they understand the idea of a perspective or depth of field. Their joy and their curiosity and their work is what keeps me doing this.
And in many ways I don’t only teach about technical aspects, but about attitudes. I try to show my students to be open, to be daring, to be courageous.
Some of the most renowned photographers have parents who showed them the art of the black box. Andreas Gursky’s father was a photographer and Gursky himself was surrounded by photography at an early age. The same happened with Sam Abell or Ute Mahler and I guess there are many more examples.
By the way there is a nice photo book published recently of the early work of Ute Mahler’s father. His name is Ludwig Schirmer and the book is called “zu hause” and it has images from the 50ies and 60ies of a rural village called Berka in the middle of Germany. A wonderful book, unfortunately little info on the web.
David Alan Harvey’s “Off For A Family Drive” is one of his best works in my opinion and he did it as a teenager.
The visual world will evolve, old paradigmas will die. When I look at the work of my students I see that there is a huge curiosity and yes, I feel a much greater freedom and more courage to experiment with images. This might be due to all the visual stimulation and availability and the easy use of new techniques. At the same time old masters are still appreciated.
The biggest hurdle I see for circus is to handle legal issues. In Germany I would think parents are “quite” relaxed, whereas in England I noticed quite a hysteria about kids in public. To find the right balance is important. However when I take a picture of a child I always have to get the permission of the parent otherwise I cannot publish the image. Ignoring this can bring me in the devils kitchen and I am sure they will roast me until I am well done. So this is the most important aspect that circus has to take care of.
A cooperation between parents, teachers and kids is vital.
The web might give the ability to provide a platform and to link together over huge distances. This is what burn does. With circus I feel there has to be much more work on the ground. In workshops tutors and teachers have a great responsibilty and integrity is essential.
As a teacher, a tutor or a guide to photography I feel the worst thing you can do to someone who starts out with photography is to kill the fun, the freedom and the joy to experiment. You can ruin the creativity of a person very easily. This is something I feel we should be aware of when we pass on our knowledge.
Yes, there are rules and there are guidelines but one of the most important rules is to break the rules.
I guess kids and teenagers like to do that a lot… As a teacher or tutor I have to get familiar with new ideas, new ways of thinking and that is a challenge for me as well. Killing an idea is always easy, to keep it growing and evolving is hard work.
So, yes, the idea of circus is great, but it needs a dedicated and commited mind like David Alan Harvey to get this baby running.
Count me in.
Reimar
Haik, you are here because of DAH. If Haik (or anyone not of DAH’s standing in photography) had started a magazine of exactly the same name and exactly the same format and published exactly the same essays, who would care? It would have barely been noticed, much less won a Lucie. Most folks here would have still been cutting up over on Roadtrips. Get real. Who would be interested in essay’s selected by Haik?
Harvey can’t hand off the work here to anyone.
OH CIVI, CIVI, CIVI,
Fall is such a busy and beautiful time.
Many pictures to be made.
Many leaves to rake.
Many fish to be caught.
Great ribs from Anthonys One-Stop
A little treat for you.
http://twoeightproject.wordpress.com/2009/10/23/bbq-joint-bainbridge-ga/
No time for small talk while the fire is BURNing!!!
I don’t know the protocol: if there is “one comment per person” -rule in essays, where am I able to comment more? In dialogue, yes, but in what thread?
Petri, in this tread! In fact, whatever is the latest thing. Whatever DAH starts a new thread with quickly veers off into whatever folks want to chat about. :)
“Lawsuit waiting to happen.”
( made me laugh ..thank u..)
“Harvey has too much to lose.”
( nahhh.. he is broke? )
big hug
I don’t know the protocol: if there is “one comment per person” -rule in essays, where am I able to comment more? In dialogue, yes, but in what thread?
—————————————————————–
usually the latest..the current,… mot its the “cutouts”.. prior to this was the “time out”…
or follow Jim..:)
big hug
Jim,
sure he could as long as we didnt know. I mean it is a business and we could easily bring up something like a network organizational structure as an analogy. As an example, did you know BMW doesn’t make BMW cars? BMW lends its name, takes care of marketing and distribution. But who MAKES those expensive cars? In the case of BMW X3, it was not BMW but actually engineered and assembled by Magna International in Austria. Magna also manufactured the 4-Matic Mercedes E Class derivatives, and even Saab 9-3. Now, replace BMW, Merc or Saab with Magna’s name. Magna X3, Magna E class, Magna 9-3. Would people buy those cars for those prices? Um, not likely. But they pay for them because they simply don’t really know. And they pay for them because they are well made. So back to Burn. If people didnt know that it was not DAH choosing, or if the content was still good (save some hiccups like the latest essay) it wouldn’t matter. Much like BMW DAH is providing the name, and that feeds into marketing as well. He is providing the product, at a competitive price, with good distribution – how much better can you get than free and easy access to good material?
“mot”????
and i thought i wrote “now”..
i need to quit thinking of “mota”..
someone said “spanish gangsta rap”?
Vato!!!!!!
I’m not sure Burn knows what it is anymore. Started out to showcase the work of emerging photographers. With the current essay, it seems DAH has moved on to trying to be “cool” and “edgy” and, well, silly.
Jim. Once you lose the ability to be silly, and appreciate the odd bit of sillyness, what do you have left in life?
John, that’s not the point. There are serious “emerging” photographers who really need exposure here. But Harvey seems to have gone off on some weird tangent.
Seriously, as a result of the Blues,Booze and BBQ essay, I bought the book. That’s the kind of exposure photographers need, not Harvey’s trying to be different.
Welcome Petri,
Comment in dialogue right here where you are….in the most recent topic/thread/conversation/party room….
You are in the right place! Enjoy and converse at will!
good light all,
A.
Jim, I could imagine very well that an ad company could do something with this kind of pictures, so the exposure for this photographer is justified, simply on a different level, for a different purpose.. and even if not, as much as you liked the other essay there’s people out which like this one, what’s wrong with that?
About Circus and too much to lose: if it doesn’t work out, where’s the problem? Same with Burn, if it folds tomorrow, where’s the problem? There’s nothing set in stone, no commitment besides Harvey’s and Anton’s, so if it’s ok for them, where’s the problem?
No problem at all, Eva, it’s just time and Harvey has it in abundance.
There is nothing wrong with being silly and giving humour into pictures, but is the sillyness somehow photographicly interesting in this newest essay?
Jim, re: if anyone but DAH “..had started a magazine of exactly the same name and exactly the same format and published exactly the same essays, who would care” That sounds really dismissive of the content and fiber of burn. What are you saying?
Oh, thanks for welcoming me! I have been lurking here all the time. I am just a man with few words so it took me time to actually write something… :)
john gladdy
November 21, 2009 at 10:32 am
Jim. Once you lose the ability to be silly, and appreciate the odd bit of sillyness, what do you have left in life?
nothing to add…except from lighten up..
big hug
peace
Jim, I guess it’s none of our business what anybody wants to do with the own (much or little) time, don’t you think?
I’m not being dismissive of the content. I’m just pointing out that the content would have probably not been widely noticed without it being DAH picking the content, even if it was exactly the same content. Harvey can never move away from his very direct involvement in this website. If this website succeeds, it will be directly because of DAH’s star power among photographers. It all hangs on DAH.
eva, we can certainly have an opinion. These threads are primarily opinion (and youtube videos).
Such “photography” as this essay “everyday” doesn’t have a great value even in a family album. Is it art? Is it a document of someone’s life? Is it for a long memory? Everythink is subjektive, but good photography is good photography, while shallow silly photography is shallow silly photography. For some shallow guys it’s maybe a fun to create such “essays”, but nothing more… Unfortunately, nowadays internet is full of such pictures and “concepts”… because today so many people mistakenly think that photography is a very easy form of art and self-expression. Maybe it’s one of the “cleanest” forms of art, but for sure, in order to achieve a decent, effective and timeless result it’s one of the most difficult and demanding forms of art. Untalented people don’t even want to think about this and are very desperate to express themselves and to become famous, which otherways, in other areas, would be impossible for them even to have a try. Nothing personal at all – nowadays this is a world wide problem.
Jim, of course, I simply think that stating the proper opinion just once could be enough ;)
Outta here, have a nice weekend all..
I wonder if the “everyday” essay might be a new version of vernacular photography that gains respect with the passing of time and is emulated by serious photographers today. Just wondering… :)
Eva, what is a “proper opinion?” One you agree with? That’s funny.
we need to find a way to make Burn more collaborative behind the scenes.
—————————————-
All in David’s hands. He knows many of us are ready to help and proposed to do so a zillion times before, here on BURN or in person, when the man was in (our) town. All for making BURN collaboration, not plantation…..
Funny language the English one, that’s right, Jim, by ‘proper’ I meant ‘eigen’, according to leo.org, ‘own’ would probably the more appropriate word:
http://dict.leo.org/ende?lp=ende&p=8x2MgA&search=eigen
On the topic at hand about the current essay …
It seems that “Everyday” is more whimsical and less serious than the types of essays burn has been publishing … to see it up here on burn when there are oh so many young (and older) emerging photographers trying to share serious stories, lives … make a difference, gain a purpose (ad infinitum motivations…) seems In this sense, I agree with Jim, everyday things, has been done a million times, and is a rudimentary standard for all beginning photojournalism courses … I want to push as well on the point (and perhaps to further it) on DAH’s celebrity and how that changes the Essay completely … because this essay is published on the Burn Website by none other than DAH, well, it necessarily imbues upon it a merit that might not necessarily have otherwise … all I can ask to issultrate the point is:
if you came across this essay without the assumed endorsement of DAH, would it have the same power?
But regardless of these points and of course the relativity of them all, I think this essay is exactly what Burn is about and where the future of photography is going; things out of the ordinary, that don’t necessarily fit the mold yet are drawn from it. Different is good albeit uncomfortable and hard to understand, and tastes aside, I believe it is clear that something like this (and it’s intended consequences) overall benefits the community.
Jim, maybe I’m not following, or maybe the perspective that success is invariably married to star power is too distressing to process right now. You could be right; I hope you are wrong.
But that is neither here nor there, because Circus can benefit from association with David’s name without David micromanaging it.
I find this kind of talk gross. I’ll stop.
The current essay has the same look as advertising photos to me. Perhaps pitching toothpaste or shaving creme.
BURN has had it’s fair share of serious, heady projects displayed. A shot of whimsy
is good for the soul. Tom Chambers, Improbable Dreams comes to mind.
There is nothing wrong with concept photography. Pitching toothpaste can make some
good pocket change. If it’s clever and well executed we should acknowlege that here,
just as we do with the more “serious” pieces put before us.
Hey Erica,
i sent you an e-mail about a week ago … i have a question of you … if you don’t mind too much perhaps you can shoot me an e-mail at: vaso.lakis@gmail.com
at your convenience, of course.
-Vas
veers off into whatever folks want to chat about
Lately we were ONLY chatting you out of off your witty comments.
Jim, you are a piece of undiscovered art, a true balance breaker, a real character that KNOWs how to tickle the public nerve. I applaud you for that – really. You do have a talent.
HI PETRI
Welcome. You are also a peeser. Welcome !!! :)
http://conversesrouges.com/2009/08/27/rest-stop/
Hi Gracie
POMARA,
“…While the FIRE is BURNing ”
REIMAR,
“Killing an idea is always easy, to keep it growing and evolving is hard work.”
MARCIN,
” where to search for talents, if not between youths?”
HILLARY,
“I want something real and unabashedly wild…bold but not reckless…pushing boundaries…testing strengths and weaknesses… allow ourselves to go for the ride.”
AITKEN,
“…inspiring from an early age, brilliant.”
DAVIDB,
“…spend your time giving others what they need, and what you need will just happen.”
FROSTFROG,
“…I think that the future of photojournalism is going to be fantastic and I stand amazed at what I see young photographer’s doing…”
MIMI,
“…Burn to me it’s a constant source of inspiration, a never-ending seminar, a non stopping workshop, a million and one pages book, a window to the world and finally a beautiful group of new friends…”
EVA,
“…The world goes around because there’s some people not having their hearts in the same place as their heads and still manage to stay positive…”
LASSAL,
“…I keep telling myself that a chance is sometimes all someone needs…”
AUDREY,
“…I’ll be happy to meet you all…”
SAM,
“…circus sounds like a very clever and wonderful idea to me… if i can help in anyway…”
VASILIOS,
“… Burn is the future; this is history … dissemination, nurturing, support, criticisms, collectivism and individualism …”
THOMAS,
“…Only those who tried, know if it worked out.”
JON-MARC
“…Let’s not let fear… crush dreams and aspirations before they’ve even had a chance to flower.”
PATRICIOM.
“… Great idea!! Having a whole community of photographers from 2 years to 99…amazing. What a present for the 1st anniversary…”
VIVEK,
“… circus is definetly a bad ass kool idea”
CATHY,
“…So is burn…giving birth to Circus.”
OUR PATRICIA,
“…Together we can pull this off. So let’s figure out how to share our diverse and complimentary gifts with youngsters across the globe.”
GORDONL,
“… the power of the photograph, and the power of a single person to make a positive change in someones life…”
J.YATROFSKY,
“… Asking ourselves questions about the nature and function of photography is relevant now more than ever.”
KYUNGHEE,
“…It would be very valuable and precious work for each other
I’m with you!”
SECOND.PAGE
“…Circus is a brilliant idea… Can’t wait to see how all those relatively untainted minds see.”
IMANTS,
“… kids …are independent creative thinkers …”
JIM,
“…Who is running the site here? DAH and Anton.”
MICHAEL.W,
“… That mentality is a big reason that an online magazine like Circus would be worthwhile.”
HERVE,
“…Great idea. Kids are cool photographers.”
RAFAL,
“…there is a WIDE spectrum of issues here”
MR.VINK,
“… there is a bunch of kids taking pictures of their life at “the Building” here in Penh…”
JOHN.G,
“… Once you lose the ability to be silly, and appreciate the odd bit of sillyness, what do you have left in life?”
PANOS,
“…VIVA CIRCUS………..
THOSE KIDS…they have a lot to teach…us..
all of us……….”
JUKKA,
“… Circus is a crazy good idea…”
peace
ANTHONY.R.Z,
“…in order to achieve a decent, effective and timeless result it’s one of the most difficult and demanding forms of art…”
DAVIDMRYDER,
“… what if we had to censor our work for the masses..”
PETE,
“… people should be careful about what they say and how they act in an online forum since you never know who may be reading ”
JUSTIN,
“…“comparing the bokeh of various lenses on close objects”. :-)
PETRI,
“… There is nothing wrong with being silly and giving humour into pictures”
MYGRAZIE,
“…Burn is a great idea…circus is a great idea too…”
HOOKSTRAPPED,
“… I’m intrigued”
TOMH,
“…Yes…”
AKAKY,
“…I agree. Let’s burn the circus”
ANDREWB,
“…I’m with ya on that one. Count me in.”
ROSSY,
“I think the entire idea sounds great… There are only 24 hours in a day.”
HAIK,
“…Welcome Circus !!!Brilliant idea – David Alan Harvey – you are genius.”
BJARTE,
“…I think the Circus magazine idea is good as long as Burn can keep on Burning with the same speed as it has.”
THODORIS,
“…If there is anything I can help with long distance, let me know.”
DOUG,
“… changes in technology, the speed at which they change and the ‘oh my god’ factor are astounding.”
BRIAN.F,
“… Hopefully Circus can inspire kids…Let me know if there is anything I can do to help.”
MTOMALTY,
“…I have no doubt that young contributors to Circus will produce some strong content”
EMCD,
“…CIRCUS is perfect!…it was one of those dreams that is more than a dream…”
JARED,
“…it’s a fun experiment with some like-minded, enthusiastic people”
ANTON,
“…the dark alleys … here and more creativity awaits..”
DAVID ALAN HARVEY,
“….everybody needs to loosen up, shed the layers, and work with childlike wonder and naivete …nobody does it better than a child, but the rest of us can at least pretend to pretend…”
WHAT NOT TO LOVE…I LOVE YOU ALL
your Civilian :)))
P.S I need more BURNIANS…KATIE FONSECA, BOBBY,KATHARINA,KERRY,ANNIE…more and more
We will succeed …
Fine words. But the devil is in the details.
Hmmm…let me see if I’ve finally got this critiquing photography thing right…
(serious, moody, touching, heart-rending shots of poverty, war, famine, hardship)
Why are we still shooting these things? what does the photographer hope to achieve, it’s all been done a hundred billion thousand times before, by people even better at their craft, and it still doesn’t make a difference. People are tired of seeing this same gloomy story every day, it’s not going to change anything, why waste our electrons on storing it? I don’t want to see this, I’ve seen it before, let’s see something different.
(essay with manipulated/staged/artistic interpretations of reality)
what is this crap?? it’s not photography! it’s not real! where are the starving, poor, homeless people? why are we wasting time taking pictures of imaginary made up scenarios when people are starving all over the world? This isn’t even photography, it’s not representing real life….I could never find a girl hanging by her heels on a stick in a formal gown in the middle of a field with an incredible sunrise in the background, why would the “photographer” – and I call them that loosely, bother to make this image?
(essay of hometown scenes of no particular significance)
These are nice, but don’t they belong on the photographers flikr feed? I mean, they aren’t about anything – just a few snapshots of their real world, and they aren’t even very well lit or composed. Why shoot this stuff anyway? Who cares what your main street looks like at mid-day when there are no people around? Go shoot something to make a difference, dammit!
(essay of social and cultural significance, a call to action)
who does this photographer think he is? This story has been done forever, and nothing changes. Why bother? maybe the photog cares, but everyone else has seen it so many times that they are numb and wouldn’t notice it if you whacked them upside the head with a hardbound copy of the unedited 200 pages. We need something new and fresh, why does any photographer who hopes to make a name for themselves photograph the same tired scenes?
(essay of daily life, purposely whimsical)
My god, here we go. This isn’t even photography, who cares that the scene is perfectly lit and composed, and the style is entirely consistent through the whole essay, and ok, the angle out of the dishwasher is different, but c’mon, it doesn’t mean anything, why should we waste our time on it, the photog admits he isn’t even a professional anyway, he’s middle aged and holds down a “day” job and only photographs when he can….he has no business being seen on a site dedicated to serious, young photographers who are shooting things that will make a difference in the world, real social change….why waste the pixels that they could have on this…even though it’s something unique and original and different, it’s not “serious” photography…
just sayin’
good light, all.
A.
Oh, and….
Gracie, you didn’t even say hi to me. I’m crushed.
A.
I LOVE THAT one MR.POWERS…
JIM,
“…the devil is in the details” and the cold beer in the fridge …
VIVA…See ya soon …BURN what a CIRCUS !!!
Andrew, you may be onto something. We’ve gone past Post Modern to Post Photography.
Interesting. Evidently, WP strips any characters surrounded by angled brackets <
My post above was prefaced with: (tongue firmly in cheek) only angled brackets instead of parenthesis.
and ended with: (snippy sarcastic mode off)
Please put those in there as you read :)
A.
Well Andrew, you make good points but I don’t think you need to be so wordy. Without any objective criteria for critiquing photographs, it all pretty much boils down to the old Iggy observation that “it would mean so much to me, if you would only be like me.”
Brother Bob! somebody said I was wordy! :)
Just (trying) pointing out the “just can’t win” approach that sometimes gets taken….
:)
Good quote, Michael :)
A.
andrew you forgot pornography
As for CIRCUS, I think it is an interesting idea, but I have to agree with Jim; I don’t really see how this works out in the long run, except maybe as a one off, and I am assuming that DAH is not interested in starting something and then just dropping it. First, there are the legal issues involved, which means that you will have to get the parents involved. Second, the parents will want to make sure that Junior gets his/her picture into CIRCUS, so the lobbying will be intense; if Anton and DAH can’t get through all the piles of stuff in their email now, it’s going to be nothing compared to what happens when Mr. and Mrs. Smith and all the other Mr. and Mrs. Smiths deluge their inboxes demanding to know what’s going on with Junior’s picture. And if you think parents are going to be big about Junior’s picture not being in CIRCUS then you’ve never been to a Little League game. It will be ugly and it will get ugly very quickly, I think. If you involve the schools, then you will have to meet their requirements vis-a-vis outside programming, which will usually include some kind of insurance and a waiver that relieves the schools of any responsibility should something go wrong with the program. And then there’s the problem of the kids themselves. CIRCUS will not get a representative sample of kids’ work. Photography is expensive, so the kids who can participate will, almost by definition, be those kids whose parents can afford the cameras. This means leaving out poor, disadvantaged, and usually minority kids. It is possible to create CIRCUS without them, of course, but just as sure as I am sitting here someone looking at CIRCUS’ premiere will wonder how come there aren’t more black/Mexican/Puerto Rican/Turkish/Albanian/Roma/Native American/First Nations/you name the minority of your choice kids’ work published in the thing. I just don’t see how two guys who are already stretching their available times to the limit can pull something like this off, no matter how much strong coffee they drink. Anyway, that’s my two cents.
and MR.HARVEY won’t have time to come to his Greek home …for ouzo and souvlakia…
oime… and the kids with no camera…and there will be no Civilian wannabe …dyslexic kid…oime
and I need all the BURNIANS to focus …deadline …I am in…
Focus…focus…I worked very hard today for the above CUTOUTS…
deadline …WHAT NOT TO LOVE !!!
p.s My one euro.
Thomas B just wrote under his essay; “It is fun, I can express myself and I am open to learn. ”
thomas B – you have a wonderful attitude and have embraced the critical essence of creation.
vasilios – I didn’t get your email…will write you now to make sure you have the right contact..
andrew b – yep, that’s the dark side, the little voice that can squelch the joy and drive out of each of us if we take it to heart.
Can I ASK a QUESTION to anyone here who might be able to advise me.
I’ve been interested in taking photograph’s at night and in very dim light for as long as I’ve been photographing, and as I’ve always used film, and still only have a still camera, the limitations have been those you all know with film and the expense of sensitive film.
So, now might be the time to look at purchasing a digital camera but remembering my limited budget, below a US$1,000. I just want something that is durable because I often photograph in dirty dusty rough environments. So a camera that offers accurate colour rendition and is quick, I mean by quick in shutter responding to when you press the shutter release. And I have Nikon equipment and all Nikon lense’s so I guess it would have to be a Nikon so I can use the lenses, even though the focal length changes slightly.
Thanks to anyone who can give me good advise.
Cheers.
I’m just not seeing much merit to all this naysaying. Granted, I don’t know much, if anything, about the legal issues, particularly when it comes to countries outside the U.S.. It’s been many years since I studied J-law. From what I remember, there should be no problem publishing kid’s work in the U.S., but of course I remember nothing whatsoever on that particular subject. Do parents really have to okay it? I don’t think so. Does someone know for sure?
As for Ataky’s points: Is photography expensive? No. No it’s not. That’s a big part of our financial problems, innit? The photo headlining this thread makes that point. Everyone has a digital camera. Fuck, almost every day I see tourists with 5 D Mark II’s and L lenses. And plenty of poor people have digital cameras, in their phones if not otherwise. And anyone who really wants one can get one. It’s not that difficult for any American or a lot of people in the rest of the world to come up with a hundred dollars and the prices are falling. Don’t get me wrong. I’m not recommending it. But in the real world, if the lowest class, most rebellious kid in the ghetto or trailer park really wants a cheap point and shoot, they can buy an eighth and gram it out for a that kind of chump change. It may not be right, but that’s how much of our economy works.
I’m guessing the folk at burn aren’t limiting this to their surrounding zip codes, but if they were it would be relatively easy to set up that kind of thing in Brooklyn. There are plenty of schools that would happily partner with burn to get their kids involved in something big time like that. And it’s likely those kids would represent immigrants from every major region on earth. Of course the great majority of their work probably wouldn’t be what you might be hoping for. That Hindi kid would be far more likely to photograph her friends at school having a good time or somehow posing than create heart rendering essays about the colorful old ways of their parents or the racist society in which they live.You probably wouldn’t identify the final product as Hindi, African, Turkish, Bangladishi, etc, etc. It would be Brooklyn, or Toulouse, or Niamey, or wherever. I don’t think it’s all that different in most major cities. And if you want to get to kids where hundred dollar cameras really are out of the question, how hard would it be to raise some money to give some cameras? Giving cameras to disadvantaged kids and seeing what they come up with is hardly a new idea. I bet you wouldn’t even have to raise money. burn could have an old camera drive and take care of a village, or a class at a school. I’ve got a few I’d contribute. Who here doesn’t?
And props to those behind burn, but they’re not the only ones on earth, or even in Williamsburg, who can do the day-to-day work required for on-line magazine. It’s conceivable that they can senior manage one.
Personally, I am skeptical about the aesthetic resources of 15-and-unders and think high school graduation would be the optimal cutoff point, but I guess if I feel that strongly about it I can start my own on-line magazinem eh. But frankly, I don’t have quite the record of success as the burn folk in these things, so I’m willing to give their way a look.
Michael, if a middle school collects canned goods for a local food bank, and I want to shoot a photo of the kids and cans for the newspaper, the school has to check through signed photo releases to be sure every student that will appear in the photo has a release from the parent to be photographed. I cannot photograph any student on the campus that does not have a signed release from their parent. This is a public school.
This is the atmosphere Circus will exist. As for the other issues, it would be stupid to publish a photo taken by a minor child without a parents written permission. It would be stupid to publish a photo taken by a minor child of another minor child without both parents specific written permission. Is it illegal? Does Harvey want to defend a position that it is legal in court? Many times, perhaps?
Who needs that kind of trouble? Probably not DAH.
peter grant,
Don’t photograph in a dim light, photograph in a good light. However, if you still decide to do that in a dim light, use a tripod and a normal 400 iso film which is much cheaper than a new DSLR. But if you are really determined to have a DSLR just buy Nikon D3000, 5000, 90, 300s… whatever you can afford and a very good lens- nikkor 35mm f/1.8 And don’t photograph in a dirty dusty rough environments, you don’t need that, believe me, I know:). Or maybe you want to be one more emerging photojournalist?:)). Then just be one, Burn will help you, you are in the right place at the right time:)
Hi Anthony.
Thanks for your advice.
I’ve been photographing for 15 years now and have used the faster films, sometimesw to good effect but I really want to photograph more in this light. The reason I ask is that 400asa is still to slow and once you start buying 800-1600 it becomes so expensive. Yes,thats exactly what I’ve been doing, besides the tripod, and heres the problem as my interest in photography is people and human culture, so a tripod is to intrusive for that sort of photography to be impulsive.
I already have a 35-f2 and 50-f1.8 and the lovely 105-f2.8. I guess I can use these len’s just changing the length of the lense.
Thanks Anthony. I’ll look in to those cameras but still may stick with your advise sticking with fast film.
I watched the new essay again today and I dislike it even more now than before.
Oh boy Peter,
Anthony has good points with his suggestions. If low-light work is your thing, then
you will want to use the Noise Ninja plug-in. It will really help make the grain
created by high ISO work more pleasing.
Now think about where digital is heading. The Nikon D3s renders ISO 200 to 12800 and
100 to 102400 in boost mode!!! That’s ISO 3200 plus 4 stops!!!This technology will filter down to the mid-level cameras in no time.
Look for a gently used D300 and you will get a great camera that is durable and
well sealed from the elements.
This is just wonderful that Thomas’ work has gotten some folks so
worked up. Thank you David, Anton and Thomas.
“…what’s not to love…”
WOW. Pomara.
I’m so naive and ignorant to whats going on. Just as long as I have my F3 and F100 and 2 or 3 lenses then I have been happy. Except in low light which has always been so ellusive to me. I’ve used the Kodak B/W 3200 which could look good but so contrasty and grainy. I’ve used the 800 but too expenseive to use enough and cheap 400 has been the film I’ve been using.
Such wonderful,advise as my thought process has always been, ‘well, I’ll just wait until something better comes along and cheap enough so I can afford it” , and it sounds like that day is on its way.
I feel a resurgence coming on as there is so much I want to photograph but for a while, lost my ?, something.
Thanks so much Pomara. Great advise. You’ve really made my day. Big hug to you. That was easy, wasn’t it!
Peter, the game has completely changed. This was shot at ISO 1000, Canon 50D. Grain is not an issue:
http://www.39thframe.com/pumpkinart.jpg
peter grant, pomara,
I was just trying to be a bit sarcastic about all this equipment stuff, but it seems I wasn’t sarcastic enough:). As far as I know, Burn has always been beyond those abc questions about “which camera is better”. This place was and probably still is for people who are interested in photography, not the camera equipment… reall photographers almost never talk about cameras. Dpreview is for all those technical questions. However, if you need a good advise on a camera bag, here you can ask your questions, because DAH, from his huge experience shooting around the globe for many decades, knows about bags and their importance a lot… and he likes to talk about them. So do I. And if one is really good, David can even send as a gift one of his bags. They really rock – the best photojournalist bags in the world. One day I will ask him:)) Not now, because I am too shy:)
“reall photographers almost never talk about cameras.”
That’s ridiculous. “Real” photographers for the most part are interested in and talk about equipment when they get together. Yes, I know some photographers are indifferent to equipment, but most take their gear pretty seriously.
Anthony,
Camera gear is not a hot topic here, but I’m
happy to square someone away if they ask, that
way we can get back to discussing world peace
and funny images.
…….or whatever happened to so and so’s flickr page
Thanks Jim.
You are flickering gearheads with high ISOs.
Next up: Indulge yourself in high frames per second for most serious photographers Mark II
Stopped down cheers.
gear talk sucks.
“I watched the new essay again today and I dislike it even more now than before.”
I just watched it for the first time and dislike it even more than you do :>))
Gear talk :)
I wish, I could take pictures with my eyes.
The camera is one factor of a picture. But not the most critical one – it is the eye, the mind.
http://www.blinkandremember.com
I think I now realized what does the newest essay look and feel like. It’s like what teenagers do: they take their small digital pocket cameras (or mobile phones) into their hands and take pictures of themselfs with funny faces. The newest essay is like that, but with a “story” and camera was in tripod. I fail to see the beauty of this combination. I am definitely not a serious person, but in photography, I want and need to please the visual and artistic side of me as well. Unfortunately, I don’t get anything out of this “point the camera in your face and make a funny face” -style. Doesn’t it anymore matter HOW things are done? Does it only matter WHAT is done? Isn’t it possible to do a funny story somehow “photographicly seriously”?
Well, if I didn’t like this essay a bit, I guess the problem is partly in my self. I have been super bored at photographs for the last 6 months. I love taking pictures, but I am bored at seeing pictures…pretty cool combination :D So bored that I also decided to start taking autoportraits in everyday situations about two weeks ago…and I hate taking autoportraits! :D Here I’m writing this comment –> http://www.petriuutela.com/lol/wineandburn.jpg
Jim, I appreciate your professional experience and don’t mean to be argumentative, but I can’t help but note that if I click on your name I see pictures of children–semi-nude children at that. Did you publish those in your newspaper as well as on the web? I don’t doubt that times have changed in many ways, but newspapers have always published pics of kids in shorts or bathing suits splashing around in water. Did you get their parents to sign releases? Do you really get that much flack for publishing what-used-to-be-typical small town newspaper photos? I’m not saying you don’t. Just curious.
My understanding is that, in the U.S. at least, we can photograph people in public spaces and publish their photos as long as they’re not used in connection with advertising. I don’t see why it would be any different for a minor publishing a photograph of another minor than it is for an adult to publish a photograph of a minor. Of course the rules are different for non-public spaces. Schools and such. And perhaps there are gray areas? What if a child takes a picture of another child in the house of a third? Is that considered a public space? In not, who would need to sign a release?
The fact is that kids are taking pictures of each other and publishing them all over the internet. And kids doing work in school photography classes, school papers and yearbooks are taking and publishing pictures of their classmates without any kind of release. Of course there are 10’s of thousands of schools with virtually just as many different rules and regulations, but I don’t see that as an insurmountable obstacle. I’m actually more in agreement with Imants that school bureaucracies are normally best when circumvented, but as a practical matter I know that some schools would love to work with a project like Circus.
Whatever. I trust the editors would be well aware of the legal issues and take due care, though I wouldn’t be all that surprised to find that you are right and it would all be too limiting and burdensome to make the project worthwhile. I guess we’ll see.
Regarding gear, I thought you all used Leica rangefinders. Just kidding. I think for most, gear is interesting in the same way that power tools are interesting to craftspeople. Which tool you use depends on the job at hand. Or you just have to work with what you have and make the best of it. Either way, it’s mostly an internal dialogue, though not exclusively. For example, I’ve read that the new hi-end Canon gets stunning detail where the eye sees nothing but shadow. I’m curious to see what people do with that. In ten years, shadow in photography may be a quaint historical curiosity, meh.
In some cases it is not the kids posting that is the problem, I am not willing put my teaching career on the line for the sake of a couple of kids photos. Too many of our bureaucrats put peoples lives on hold while they look into a “maybe” or a “allegation”
“shadow in photography may be a quaint historical curiosity”……. not as long as darkness still exists in what we see out there.
a bit boring to talk about equipment vs photograph issue… people try to divide things into camps, but it is much like automatically attributed stigmas …
equipment is important, for pleasure and/or for the quality (“the look”) of the photograph… and theres nothing wrong about loving cameras, and it doesnt necessarily mean that such a person is a geek or is not interested (or knowledgeable) in photography itself… lets say, from my experience, i see as much nonesense stuff from geeks of equipment as from those who think that equipment is not important.
we should say: equipment is a tool, an important one. and anyway, whatever it is, it doesnt make automatic good photograph, just as much as anti-equipment mantra doesnt make automatic masterpiece.
BTW … as for bags, any experience with half photo half daypack bags… something like NationalGeographic series ? i will check it in the shop as to the fit, but any one can say about durability and wear ? and also about accessing comfort once u really use it while trekking etc (not only checking in shop)… ??? or any other advise ?
Michael, I understand very well the legal aspects of my job. If a photo I publish needs to be released, I can assure you I have the release on file. But there is a difference when you have children shooting photos of children…or anything for that matter…if you plan to use the photos on a kids’s version of Burn (Circus, whatever).
You don’t just have an adult with photos he shot in a public place. You have parents (perhaps warring, divorced parents) with the legal responsibility for their child who shot the photo, you have the child, you have the child pictured in the photos with their parents who have legal (and personal) responsibility for them. And you have an atmosphere (especially in the US) that considers everyone with a camera a potential pervert and child molester.
As for the schools, children can be (and are routinely) punished or even suspended for photos that they appear in that get posted on the web, even if they were not shot at school and have nothing at all to do with school, if the school considers those photos “inappropriate.” Students even bully other students by pointing out such photos to school teachers or principals to get their targets punished or suspended.
Getting yourself as a publisher wrapped up in all the huge legal morass of dealing with kids in print is a major decision. And Harvey is trying to do all this stuff on a shoe-string, which I would guess would preclude a good lawyer.
Vic I use one of these initially put together by your fellow countrymen
http://www.kata-bags.com/productFRM2HS.asp?p_Id=431&Version=Photo#p7GPc1_1
Never liked backpacks. Inconvenient to use. Always been Domke bags of one size or another if I’m using a bag. The last several years I’ve used one of the belt systems instead of a bag to keep the weight off my shoulder and neck. Carry three Nikons around your neck and a bag on your shoulder for 30 years and it takes a toll. :)
Jim, I didn’t mean to imply you didn’t know your job. I’m asking these questions because I presume you do.
thanks imants… ok… i see this is a full series, cool, will check it in the shop, i hope they have those models too.
have u carried an attached tripod to this bag ? du think it makes sense, i mean in terms of comfort on long walks and climbs etc… it looks good on picture when the tripod is there… a small one, manftrotto 190pro-something with ball head on it…
JIM….
the advantage of a small backpack is that one can be fairly unobtrusive… Jim Domke was just behind me at Mizzou J-school and his original point was to create a bag that did not scream PHOTOGRAPHER when he and the other photogs at his paper created the bag…..i was given an early model to test and just loved it…well, the boy was so successful with his bags that he gave up any serious attempt at photography after he left the Philadelphia Inquirer…unfortunately he created such a strong brand that his bags now do the opposite of is original intention…internationally Domke bags do now say “camera in here, steal me”…
now now Jim…do you really think i would publish a magazine with photographs taken by children that would even come close to running any kind of risk either legally or morally or ethically ? we will work directly with organized programs and schools that are set up to do the various “kids with cameras” that are set up all over the world and have been doing so for the last 30 years or so….every teacher and parent that i have spoken with about this only gives me a big smile…sure sure children must be protected…i am a parent Jim..please give me SOME credit as both a parent and responsible editor…and also remember that i was a very passionate photographer myself from age 12 on…whatever happens with CIRCUS will be intended as a creative outlet for the very creative….after all unlocking the “child in us” is my main mission with adult photographers….i think we can do it with style , aplomb and way way within the boundaries of good taste and with child safety as the number one goal….hmmmm, what in the world were you like as a kid?? trying trying to imagine…smiling Jim, smiling….
cheers, david
victor,
I have a crumpler “Farmer’s double L”. It has room for camera gear in the lower part and for a laptop or other stuff in the upper part. Both parts may be reached separately.
One time I used it on a business trip, where I also had to photograph the event.
I had 2 bodies, a 70-200/2.8 and a 17-35/2.8 plus two laptops (private one for the pictures, company one for the work) – it was pretty heavy when carrying in the hand, but once on the back, it was quite easy.
I looked several times at the NG bags, they look really nice, but I always doubted to have the same amount of stuff in them.
O.K. So Circus will be an outlet for existing programs. I’m not sure how that solves the problems of creating a kid safe website that is in any way interesting, but I guess you’ve got it figured out.
victor ben tzvi,
Aesthetically I like all NG bags, but I have non of them and I don’t know about their wear. Personally I shoot only for my personal social projects and with only one camera and one standard lens. So I don’t need a backpacks and I like shoulder bags better. Either I shoot at home or in a foreign country, very often I don’t know where I am going to end up in the late evening… so having a nice camera bag that says there is a nice digital camera in there is the least desired thing… Now I just bought an aesthetically nice and ergonomic, but quite cheap messenger style bag from unknown brand, put padded inserts and that’s it – it works for me better than anythink I had before. Of course, if you climb and carry a bit more camera gear, dedicated camera backpacks probably is the best solution.
Oh boy camera bags!!! I am on my second Billingham Hadley, they’re tanks. These things never croak and they are very low profile. If I have to dress up for an assignment (god forbid) it doesn’t stand out.
Now for the discriminating, save your pesos for a Fogg http://www.tamarkin.com/catalog/products/fogg/cases.html . By appointment only….pleazzze.
David I took a Sideline pack to Costa Rica and it was great for hauling, but was a pain to access. I guess there is no perfect solution.
If you show me yours….. oh never mind.
Regarding camera backpacks, I’ve been using this for about four years:
http://www.photographyreview.com/cat/camera-cases/backpacks/lowepro/PRD_324079_3139crx.aspx
Camera backpacks are better for the same reasons that regular backpacks are better. They are designed to not hurt your back. I am not a nature photographer, but I am a nature boy and a photographer so I often find myself in some ridiculous cliff climbing situation with a backpack full of heavy camera stuff. It’s great to have the serious back support in those situations. Otherwise 20 pounds of stuff can move around at the worse possible time and strain your back muscles. It’s better for walking around the city all day, too.
The other thing I like about it is that the cameras are stored in the bottom section and the top is more a regular backpack. In the hundreds of times my pack has been searched since 9/11, only twice have they noticed the bottom section. And after the first time I left it unzipped and a lens bounced down some concrete stairs, I’ve never forgotten to zip it again. But essentially, I like having a compartment where I can carry food, a sweatshirt, or whatever. Not good for easy access though.
It’s falling apart now, particularly the zippers, so I’m not sure I can vouch for the build quality. I’m hard on it though. Four years is good enough for me. If anyone has a recommendation for a better, similar bag, I’m in the market as well.
Three most-used bags: A Domke F-3 (with the red Domke steal-me indicators cut off the end flaps) for walk-arounds. A NG medium backpack (well built, wears well), and a no-brand black canvas messenger bag plus a Tenba insert (the one for the f/pro digital bag).
The messenger bag/insert has solved a travel dilemma for me. With work travel, I carry-on all my bags, so all I can take is my rolling carry-on and my briefcase. The Tenba insert fits in the main compartment of my briefcase, making it a laptop/camera bag…I take the messenger bag with me folded flat in the suitcase. When I get there, I lift the tenba insert out (they have bottoms) and put it in the messenger bag, giving me a dedicated camera bag.
gear and bag talk – oh me oh my :)
Is anyone planning on attending DAH’s Miami workshop in January?
good light all,
A.
Back from Bergen…
http://bjartebjartebjarte.blogspot.com/
$1,000 for a Fogg bag, really? Guess that’s for the Noctilux, eh? Will people really pay that? Just not a fan of the old school leather strap style … looks like you’re going birding in the English countryside. I like the simple Dakine canvas with the insert but not weather proof, and a little too big perhaps, and really do not like brand names visible. Such a pain carrying SLR, first mistake. Still researching …
Bjarte, I like the cows :))
as far as i can tell, no one makes a messenger camera bag with gore-tex interior? A diver’s style interior sealable envelope would be cool I guess but the weight would be too much to lug around.
JIM..ALL
i have not had a chance to read all the comments, but will do so in the morning…i assume there are two primary concerns regarding Circus….
(1) that i would take effort away from Burn which is indeed a full time job (2) create a potential threat to youngsters on the net..
i am sure you well know that these were the first two things i considered…
nothing will change in my efforts with Burn..she is my baby…first of all, i will not do Circus without a very special Circus staff who are completely independent from Burn..my commitment and sense of responsibility towards Burn will not waiver…
i have already increased the grant funding for the EPF in 2010 to a $15,000 stipend….
getting work for photographers here and getting photographers paid for being published on Burn is my primary goal right along with a variety of efforts to make Burn work better all of us…
just last week i tried (in vain) to lock down assignments for Burn photographers to shoot a video/still combo for one of the largest ad agencies in the world…it did not work out this time, but the important thing is that the agency even considered Burn at all as a potential resource…..frankly, i just could not move fast enough in this case..it came at me totally by surprise and i just could not get enough response from photographers here who were video savvy enough to get this particular commission…in addition, very few responded here who had proof of past video experience AND who had specific ideas for embedding with an American family.. at least, not in the time frame under which i was working…in any case, i tried…and i will keep trying…i do not expect Burn to be a direct agent for photographers published here, but on the other hand i do think that certain kinds of packages may be possible in the future…we will see..
secondly regarding Circus, the bar for child safety on the net would indeed be set high…all content would be approved by adults who are directly involved with the raising or care of the child photographer…at no point would any form of solicitations be possible to children whose work we published…the comment system we use on Burn would most likely not be possible with Circus….i would certainly start by publishing work from existing programs that are everywhere but have no unified outlet…if we started looking for talented youngsters through Circus itself then we would simply have to employ the very best system available to protect these young photographers…suffice it to say that there are all sorts of magazines publishing content created by children…whatever is the best way, the safest way, is the way that i will go…..before Circus exists at all, this system or systems will be locked down tight to the 100% satisfaction of parents, teachers, etc
remember, Circus will be a magazine photographed BY young photographers, not OF young photographers…the subject matter will be surely of wide variety and would obviously not contain any more pictures of children than we already publish on Burn..
now must sleep…Thailand time…
cheers, david
The photographers here at the beginning of careers had better embrace video NOW. Shooting and editing video are just going to be a requirement very, very soon. Harvey had a connection to real work if someone had just had the knowledge and experience. Definitely a real wakeup.
JIM..
agreed…certainly for the purposes of mass communication the combo of video/stills skills will be of great value……to be fair to the photographers here, i posted this potential job here in dialogue comments not quite knowing anywhere else to do it…photographers are not skimming the comments section here for job possibilities, so i am sure very few actually saw the posting…and it was one of those things where i needed answers within hours , not days…the nature of the ad biz i am afraid, not any failing on the part of photographers who may or may not log on Burn regularly and who may indeed be totally qualified…as usual, some of the ones who i know are video qualified, just were not available….
YOUNG TOM…
i have this small, less than a pound empty, rock climbing pack that is now my favorite street shooting bag….so so discreet….and, well, i just never know when i am going to have to start climbing rocks…
Tom,
I just could not resist the Fogg bag thing. It’s just so over the top. What and how you carry is such a personal thing. Over my many years of hauling gear, it’s nice to know I can get a replacement. Just a little constant in this ever changing world.
PAUL…
yes, the Hadley is a great bag, easy to get in and out of, and waterproof to boot…but, i always thought it just looked to nice and too expensive (until worn out) to get me through some areas where i am often trying to minimize myself as a target….
Regarding the latest essay is interesting, but to me it is too over the top. I know it is a visual comedy parodying and poking fun at everyday life; but I think the “over the top-ness” is a type of crutch. I’m sure that David knew it would be a polarising essay; you’d either love it or hate it!
I can imagine a similar themed essay done by a photographic Ricky Gervais. A subtle, embarrassing essay similar to a scene from “The Office” (UK version). An essay that is sooo cringe-making that it makes your toes curl! But that is asking a lot I suppose.
I watched Gervais on the Letterman Show the other night and you just knew Gervais was “playing” with Letterman. You could sense Gervais could have ripped Letterman to bits any time he wanted. Poor old Ricky had to dumb down his comedy to match the sycophantic Letterman audience!
However; any essay that makes you think has got to be good. And I also admire anyone who can do a series of self-portraits; I just couldn’t do it!
ALL…
it’s too late to be pessimists !!!
the World is moving fast…maybe faster than we would like
BUT
together we can try…what the heck we have to lose…
we have been through births,deaths,jail time,
parties,suicides,drugs,marriages,first steps,last steps…we have chased tumbleweeds, we saw caws,birds,
bones,mustaches…we have traveled to India,China,Norway,Russia,Australia…
I know…when I read about the Circus …my first thought was …what is wrong with MR.HARVEY???
and I know that he rejected the role of Alexander The Great…aha,sure…what else …
BUT I said to myself WTF… I am in Heaven…SPACECOWBOY ,please we need you NOWWWWWWWWWWWW
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBF67r1LnhE&feature=related
E. Fitzgerald, L. Armstrong — Cheek to cheek (Heaven)
P.S video and bags … why not :))) VIVA …dancing
“… Lighten up, all you Burn-outs! …Correct me if I am wrong, but I thought Burn was about expanding the horizons of how we think about and look at photography. And how photography mirrors the human condition…”
SIDNEY A.
P.S the rest under Everyday essay…LOVE TO ALL…KATIE, LASSAL,AUDREY,EMCD,KATIA,MYGRACIE,OURPATRICIA
WENDY,CATHY…it’s a ladies night out …We are dancing cheek to cheek.
show me your BAGS …hihihi…too much dancing …
I am out
CIVI…..remember…we burnians don’t carry bags or baggage…
We carry treasure chests!
A.
Oh David AH, it’s always better to look good than feel good.
David, we have to talk serious bags, or seriously talk bags, after the first of the year … have some info for you … and, huh, hadn’t thought about the rock climbing bag … is it a chalk bag? hmmm, you said “pack,” as in backpack? … thought you were the messenger bag dude … interesting … waterproof? manufacturer?
Have you got your “perfect” bag figured out? We need a prototype :))
Tom Hyde, would love to talk bags with you as well….I think I’m always searching for the perfect one…I think I may be on to something with this generic messenger w/ an insert approach…..
POmara…well….yeah :)
A.
Paul O’Mara, it’s good to know there are true connoisseurs out there … now what would the Blue Angels use?
WELCOME TO THAILAND, David!
It’s like it was 3 or 4AM in the morning when you wrote your last lines above. Hmmmm, I wonder where you sent them from, at that ungodly hour (well, it’s actually a very godly one in Bangkok and I am sure you already had your first taste of night stalls street food somewhere along Sukhumvit).
Are you staying at the same funky and cool looking hotel as you did last year?
Hyde, that crap was military issue. Now you know why I’m such a snob about my satchel.
Ok we’ve gotten all bagged down. Let’s talk trash.
How about a little slide show http://photomara.com/auga
I have an old ‘north face’ courier bag. Totally waterproof. Looks like any other courier bag. Been all over the world with me. Attracts no attention at all.
HERVE…
are you in Thailand? Mike Yamashita and Ira Block and i did a Canon sponsored seminar at the Millenium Sukhumvit where i am now…not the funky Dream Hotel where i did the workshop with Nachtwey…by the way, i finally met our Aussie friend Glen Campbell who did some excellent work here in BKK ..Glen is flat out a terrific guy and is already planning to help us with some young aborigines with cameras for Circus….and i may hook up with Anton and his brother who are in Tokyo to discuss Burn biz…i do want to do a couple of days of shooting BKK at least to add to my SE Asia archive, but i will not stay much longer…if you are in BKK now perhaps we could meet?? i have been doing a marathon of activity for the last 6 weeks or so and mostly i just want to go home and sit on my front porch and watch the seagulls fly by and try to figure out what to do with new kittens which should be born any day now..in any case, give me your location and let’s have a cold beer should you be around….
ANDREW B…YOUNG TOM
i have been a fan of the bike messenger bags for awhile..mostly Timbuk2 where you can build your own bag online..the cross strap turns a shoulder bag into almost a backpack and again you have a bag that looks like you are carrying your gym gear and not cameras….i use a Tenba 415 insert which can be dropped into any bag of any style of any manufacturer…but the perfect bag?? laughing…well, the joke on me is always that i use one camera and one lens yet have dozens of bags…crazy, ridiculous, yet true….oh yes Young Tom, the rock climbing backpack i am using in the streets of BKK where we first met is a Black Diamond…Magnum model (pure coincidence)…yea, my beach pickup truck is a Magnum model too (also pure coincidence)…ok, now that is enough brand name dropping to last me for months…
ANTHONY RZ…
i think i have enough bags to pass around for this Burn audience…anyone coming to my loft in NYC knows they can go bag shopping right in my apartment….you are welcome to do the same…please visit….
Gosh, all you bag freaks need to get a scooter! What kind of bag you carry in your basket only has to be rain resistent and easy to open so you can grab your camera in the blink of an eye. One of the greatest perks of being disabled and using a scooter is ALWAYS having my camera on hand, but never having to carry it myself. Lucky me ;=))
Patricia
PATRICIA…
good point…it is your optimism that makes so many here really look pessimistic over the silliest things…you have your head screwed on straight…we should all take lessons from you…
JIM…
speaking of pessimism…to the best of my recollection, you always think my ideas are either bad or doomed..the freedom to have bad ideas along with the good, is freedom at its best…i have never heard of one single person who had good ideas who did not also have the worst ideas in the world…goes with the territory of thinking outside of the norm…by the way, i do not try to be different…i am different..of course the day you stop coming here to tell us all what we did wrong is the day that i know i will have really done the wrong thing…however, i will stand by Circus..now why don’t you do something constructive and help us out a bit and hook up with one of your local schools and see what you can come up with….as a respected member of your community i am quite sure you could be of great service by initiating or sponsoring a small group of teenagers who might feel so much better about themselves if they were recognized for having done something special with their photographic interests…at least give it a thought…thanks…
cheers, david
DAH…
The local “gallery hop” this quarter includes an exhibit sponsored by a local art/education group that took 11-15 year olds and paired them with professional/serious amateur photographers who worked with them as mentors…the exhibit is of the children’s resulting work over the next month. The ones I’ve seen published and on the local web sites are quite good and interesting – going to go see the full exhibit this week.
Going to find out more about the program and see about getting involved…will keep you posted….
good light,
A.
David
just back from miami where my flick screened in the short film festival.. I met these Nicaraguan filmmakers that did a film called ‘El Ladroncito’ (the little thief – about a 12 year old boy) great flick and now they are trying to raise $ for children for workshops with filmmaking etc… so what a coincidence to read about circus… GREAT idea… do you know Zana, from Born in Brothels? children with cameras is a powerful thing… also wendy ewald comes to mind…. ***
Im still ij shock about the last essay being here. Ive not disliked anything on here yet, but that was the first time I was really shocked to see something and sislike it so much. Something that was piinted out in response to Bregulla’s essay over at HCSP was this. http://raoulgatepin.com/photographs/mainstream/ check it oput. FAR better.
http://www.kentucky.com/712/story/1026506.html
and
http://www.ourworldinpictures.org
The exhibit is titled “Peace through perspective”
RAFAL…
you have made your point three times…got it…thanks
WENDY…
Zana is a former student of mine from the Eddie Adams workshop many years ago…she has really made a mark…Wendy a friend as well…yes, yes all these interesting projects…and congrats on your screening…sorry to be so rushed with this note, but my net time is running out…YOU would be one of the most perfect people to be working with me on Circus…will contact you by email…nothing will happen regarding Circus until early 2010..now is the time to just get organized and figure out who will do what…
big hugs, cheers, david
David in ther southern hemisphere organized has a s not a zed
When Circus was first mentioned, the powerful Born into Brothels documentary immediately came to mind, as strange as that sounds. I wondered if someone would bring that up. Providing a showcase for worldwide efforts like this would be about as good as it gets. I had no idea how many programs like Kid with Cameras there are until I just looked … amazing.
When you are trained to assume the worst, it’s hard work to assume the best … cheers to Harvey’s half full glass. There’s one sitting on the table over there for you too Jim.
BJARTE
LOVE the photo of tor capa nd the second down..
decent snap of me through our window as well..
crafty young man.
great to see you and look forward to seeing you again..
d
“cheers to Harvey’s half full glass. There’s one sitting on the table over there for you too Jim.”
that’s brilliant..
i can’t wait to see what’s submitted.. and i think the logistics of it can be really easily overcome by working with institutions and groups..
g’morning..
tor capa in nursery.. beate in work..
maternity is OVER.. time to tuck into it earnest-ly.. or frank-ly..
yeps.
d
David B
Thank you. Second down; you mean the ninth one? I’m quite happy with that one as well. Will probably end up in the Daydream station project. All the ones that aren’t intended for anything specific end up there :)
David B., that was you? I didn’t recognize you from the front, with clothes, and your feet on the ground. :))
Sorry, it was THE self portrait … at least the one I, ahem, remember most … okay, this is going downhill fast, logging out …
About camera bags
I have a small lowepro one. I wish it was a bit bigger so I could have room for that flash in there as well. Now it’s just enough for the camera body and a small lens.
The perfect camera bag must be the kind of bag security people overlooks when you’re entering a concert. I would certainly like one that didn’t scream out CAMERA BAG.
bjarte.. much better to work ahead of time and get accredited – then feel free to snap at the whatever,,,
TOM – ha.
i showed that photo to my class last year, during their self portrait workshops – bjartes class actually..
now.. could i have done that in the u.k.?
not a chance..
i´d have been slapped in manacles and banged up before you could say ´flasher´..
bjarte – you could have mentioned.. i have a few bags i rarely use anymore that you could have tried for a while.
DavidB, Bjarte …
great! Sounds like a camera bag meeting on Dec 21!
:–)
sorry guys … I just have to try this. You have no idea! :-)
David B
Accrediting; good advice. Getting access is something I often forget when working just for my own projects.
No worries about the bags, I rarely use my flash anyways, so the bag is usually good enough for me. I hope I can come up to Bergen again soon. Maybe january or february. I’ll keep myself updated on concerts happening up there.
“cheers to Harvey’s half full glass. There’s one sitting on the table over there for you too Jim.”
YOUNG TOM…
u da man..:)
david alan harvey,
Oh, don’t tease me David :). I have lived in NYC five years ago, but now I have tried to get the US visa twice and no success… haven’t violated any law… the problem is my single status and no “proper” job:), once I mentioned I was an independent photographer… now visa “free” for my country, but still no entry… I absolutely love living in NYC, but it seems I will never be able to come back… my fate I guess. The closest I can get to New York is Canada, but I know nothing about living in Toronto and I have no recourses for my experiments in expensive West countries anymore… I can wander around China or Thailand for months though. Thanks David for your open heart. If life ever brings you to Lithuania my door is always open for you as well.
“Getting access is something I often forget when working just for my own projects.”
bjarte – access is more than half the job.. logistics is a quarter.. and then photographing might be the bit left over :ø)
gotta run now..
keep on all.. nearly a fresh year to rise to.
d
Please, don’t forget to submit…keep BURNing …
my glass…hmmm…I don’t have a glass I have a bottle
and it’s always full…
P.S LASSAL, HAIK,…BURNIANS…WE are different BUT the same …
KATIE FONSECA where are u street fighter ??? your everyday man/wo is here ..
Ok,ANTHONY, maybe you can marry Panos… if this doesn’t work ,you can always come south
to Grecoland !!!
“.now why don’t you do something constructive and help us out a bit and hook up with one of your local schools and see what you can come up with….”
I have a hard enough time getting the schools to sort how who I can or can’t photograph in the school play, much less getting them interested in putting photos on the web! And now a city in the next counties school district’s private police force just had one of its officers shoot and kill a guy on the street corner. Great. Did you know that a lot of public school districts have their own private police force? Armed officers roaming the halls? You think I’m cynical? Damn right.
a civilian-mass audience,
“maybe you can marry Panos…” – I have heard some people do such things, but I am not shure if I am ready for such kind of adventures:), and neither I know Panos, nor Panos knows anythink about me:)). Any way, thanks for your respond and invitation to Grecoland :). You can allways come to Vilnius as well, just wait a couple of weeks until swine flu is gone from Lithuania :)).
Maybe Riga may be of greater interest ………………
Rafal: The Gatepin essay is something very different, surely, because it isn’t comedy.
Pomara: Liked your Coosa River thing – over too quickly.
Mark, comedy implies it was funny. Did you find this funny?
ok yall…
celebrity saga part III..
:)))
just finished a TV interview for the national greek circuit…
A super hot girl ( hostess ) , let me talk all ABOUT BURN..
and the upcoming CIRCUS HALF FULL GLASS…
I invited of course the whole country to log in on our
dysfunctional family affairs…
All plz keep fighting and debating..
do not disappoint me..
i told “them” ALL about “YOU”..
YOU
YOU
YOU..
VIVA BURN….
viva DAH…now BURN is officially in the greek media…
big hug..
…also big hug and HAPPY BIRTHDAY for my little sisters’ birthday today..
happy birthday
happy birthday
happy birthday…
:))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
Fortunately Mark W this is an ongoing project. Lots more to do before I can put this to bed. I’ve done all of the “easy” work. Thanks for your thoughts
here’s one example of a photography program teaming up with a public Elementary School:
The Syracuse University College of Visual and Performing Arts received a Burton Blatt Institute Innovation Grant to fund a year long photography residency Literacy, Community and Photography in Ed Smith Elementary School in Syracuse, New York, a pioneer school for inclusive education.
As an arts education program, Literacy, Community and Photography is designed to encourage children to explore their worlds as they photograph scenes from their lives, and then use these images as catalysts for verbal and written expression.
Some of the kid’s work here at http://vpa.syr.edu/lcp/gallery.html
see: http://vpa.syr.edu/lcp/
Yep, none in Texas. What an opportunity …
http://www.kids-with-cameras.org/community/
are you in Thailand?
——————–
Not yet, David (just got back from France). Flying out there after New year’s.
BTW, Mike Yamashita is a very good friend of my own very good friend Chris Burt. About thai connections, given how long you have worked in the region, I suppose you know that old hand “Shrimp” too. I know he has been featured in some of the “one day in thailand’ books. This guy goes wayyyy back…
Have a cold one on me, make it 2, and someday I am sure we will meet there too. Some of my most cherished memories of times there are whole nights spent sitting, drinking talking and watching the world go by right besides us until dawn comes (at least!), with the right friends.
Cool, Lexington is on that map…
David B
You should give me advices every day. I can’t get enough.
Now just a coup of coffee and Marissa Nadler…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r_zFU88qttI
…and then back to writing a project description. Need to get support for the exhibition next year. Deadline closing in. December 1st.
choke-choke
What not to Love
choke-choke
deadline is close
choke-choke
the game is on
It’s a good feeling when deadlines are closing in. It’s often a key to motivation.
So then I hope everybody is REALLY MOTIVATED now: deadline is closing in!!!
A little haiku or two dedicated to deadlines:
Deadline closing in
Not sure of what I’ll produce
Pressure all around
Click goes the Canon
Pictures flying left and right
Not one worth a damn
Feel free to share your own.
Another deadline for Burnians (I just received this in my inbox):
Atlanta Celebrates Photography Public Art 2010 – Request for Proposals. “There’s no entry fee, a $12,000 budget, and proposals are due on January 15th, 2010.”
http://www.acpinfo.org/blog/2009/11/23/acp-public-art-2010-rf/
Deadline
Leading to
Lifeline
I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by. Douglas Adams (1952-2001)
Truer words were never spoken…
camera bags? I use the black ones I get down at the Gulf station. The plastic is nice and sturdy and if you need to store them you can stuff them into your sleeves, where they are also good for insulation on a winter’s day.
Deadlines keep flowing
They rush at me like water
Please don’t let me drown
I’ve been stuck behind the laptop writing over the last few days and whilst doing so I’ve been mulling over the opinions on the “Everyday” essay. As soon as I saw it I knew it was going to be a polarising one, but it got me thinking about why so many photographers (in general) have such definite parameters between like and hate (statements like utter garbage etc).
I often wonder whether these photographers have the same views on music for example? Whether they only play one style of music and nothing else, read only one type of book, watch only one type of movie? For example; I love the Sex Pistols, but I could never play only punk on my stereo.
It just seems to me that many photographers (again; a generalisation) seem to be less tolerant towards different styles of photography than other artistic mediums.
The “Everyday” essay didn’t really do it for me, but I don’t “hate” it; it’s just different. However I do appreciate the fact that it has given me food for thought.
Do I like every essay I see on Burn? Far from it. One the aspect I like the most about Burn is that it has exposed me to, and opened my eyes to, many different styles of photography.
Cheers.
Ross,
You bring up some good points. There are alot of movies and music that I don’t like, but I can appreciate the creativity and effort behind them. That’s kinda where I am with the Everyday story. It’s not my style, and I definitely have some ideas on how I would approach that subject matter differently, but I appreciate it for what it is.
Brian;
I’ve been shooting the Indie music scene for about 10 months. Mostly the heavy meatal scene, with a bit of punk thrown in too. I’m not really into metal, but I do appreciate their musical ability. Especially because I love playing guitar, but am pretty useless at it! :-)
One night I was absolutely blown away by a 3 piece high school metal band. They were playing real hard-out metal but right in the middle of one song they did a bridge of VERY slick jazz before seemlessly slipping back into the metal! They were all aged about 17 or 18 but had obviously been exposing themselves to many different musical genres.
Cheers
I’m a music nut. I woulda loved to hear that.
Ross Nolly,
Since when a weak concept, idea and an average attempt has become a style of photography? OK, I love jazz, but it doesn’t necessary mean that I would listen to it if just someone random, without any clue about music in general, started to imitate jazz by writing this music and playing sax. As for photography, I try to be as open minded as I can, but if I see and think it’s bad or average I just don’t care. We can get food for thoughts from anything, but when we see others work we have our criteria, which is based on many personal factors. I think praising an average work can do a great harm for a starting photographer as well. I think Burn was supposed to be and still is, a very serious place curated by one of the top photographers in the world, and I am a bit suspicious about featuring obviously weak attempts. Of course, some people might like it, some not, but one still has a right to say if he doesn’t like it at all. However, one might still love the author of the weak essay as a person:)).
what anthony said basically.
there’s lots of photography that i like/dislike.
e.g – i’m not particularly moved by rankin’s highly commercial portraiture. however he is immensely skilled at what he does, and his work is really obviously a high quality example of its genre.
the everyday essay.. its not good photography in any way to be honest. i feel sorry for the photographer having his work featured in such an inappropriate context, and also for the many other photographers making interesting, challenging work and submitting it here for publication who aren’t getting featured.
disclaimer: i haven’t submitted an essay to burn so this aint sour grapes!
BEN
you should not feel sorry for Thomas. With his essay he has shown authorship. And that is more difficult to achieve than some other things you might find missing in there. He’ll fill the other gaps easily.
I think by choosing this essay DAH is really trying – once again – to make a point regarding his view on how important authorship is.
Remember the chatting when Alejandro Chaskielberg showed his essay? Remember who was chosen for the EPF and by what jury? I am not saying that Thomas would win an EPF with his essay, he himself agrees that there is still a way for him to go. I just ask you to try to see what DAH is trying to show. Over and over again.
:)
Good night yall … late again.
nah, i can’t see it. sorry.
I think it’s not fair to say that people who don’t like the “everyday” essay (or any other similiar essay) are lacking a sense of humour or that they are taking things too seriously. Yes, I take photography seriously — super seriously, but it does NOT mean that I do not appreciate anything that is out of genres that I like and prefer. No, I can appreciate any kind of photography if it’s done with good taste and the quality is good. If “having a sense of humour” means that you have to like just about everything, then I am happy to say that I don’t have sense of humour. Good work is good work, bad work is bad work.
Think of it this way: if you have a camera with self timer, a tripod, and if you have time and will to (over-) act in your own pictures — couldn’t pretty much anyone take similiar pictures to “everyday” quality wise? Or is there some kind of hidden phoographic quality that I just don’t see? Laughing at funny pictures / taking funny pictures — I don’t see that a “photographic” quality. It’s different important kind of quality.
Now, I’ll go and watch some Monty Python youtube clips just to prove that I have a sense of humour!
Ross,
you are starting off on a VERY wrong premise. Many of the photographers here who disliked the every day essay loved many different styles shown on Burn. Ill use myself as an example. Ive liked most of whats been on Burn, and as you know it has been a very ecclectic offering so far. Evey Day was the first essay I was totally turned off to. Furthermore, Ive had 2 essays of my own work published on Burn, and they were about as different as one could get. So not only do I LIKE a wide range of styles and aesthetics, I SHOOT a wide range of styles. So your premise is totally wrong from the get go.
…my English sucks. I tried to say that trying to take funny pictures or laughing at funny pictures is not in my eyes “photographic” quality. It just shows that maybe you have a sense of humour. You need to have tons of other aspects as well to make a good, funny photograph…those normal things that belongs into photography. IMO.
This is little bit comparable to often heard “You don’t become a good photographer by taking pictures. You become a good photographer by reading and educating yourself!” Yes true, reading and educating helps definitely a lot, but reading and education ALONE is not enough. You also need to know “how to take pictures”.
“but reading and education ALONE is not enough. You also need to know “how to take pictures”.”
NOW you tell me!
I think there is beauty in everything, a great word someone used was poignancy. I think there is beauty in our daily lives, some depth, some meaning. There is great beauty in those small moments and actions we do every day. I would love to see an essay that presents me with that beauty, makes me think, makes me REALLY THINK about it, its meaning, significance, shows it to me in an aesthetic that is either beautiful or shocking, but engaging on more than one level. THAT would be a great essay about this topic. That would be a great essay, period. Has this done it? Has this shown me any beauty? Has it shown it to anyone else? Has a guy making funy faces made you reflect and think? On ANY level? It hasnt done that job for me, not in content, not in the aesthetic. I think this is what people are getting at with this essay, it doesnt do what is intended, in fact it mocks the subject, and the viewer. Then again I think I am giving it far too much credit, mocking the viewer would actually demand some thought process in the creation process. A purpose.
O.K. The essay sucks. Can we flog another dead horse now?
Jim,
I just had to verbalize my feelings, I had not done that other than in the most general, Jim-esque way, and thats wrong. I couldnt find the words till now to really say what I felt.
jim powers tells someone to stop flogging a dead horse. this just gets better.
“you are starting off on a VERY wrong premise”
Well sorry, but I think you are too! My statement was about photographers in general not specifically Burn commentators. But that was probably my mistake for not making my comments clear enough.
I was using the “Everyday” essay as an example. The last thing I would ever want is for a critique to be less than honest, but I am often surprised by the vehemence of some comments. Remember I didn’t really “get” the essay either. I could imagine some of the images in adverts though.
As for feeling sorry for the photographer? Well; if you pick the venue you want your work to appear in then there’s nothing to feel sorry for?
I admire Thomas’ self confidence though because I know I could never do a self portrait series like that!
Rafal; I remember your first essay on Burn. It was one that didn’t really appeal to me, but I could see merit in it. It also got me thinking. Even though it wasn’t really to my tastes I could never, and would never, call it rubbish! :-)
But as usual my opinion is just that, an opinion; and as Glenn so succinctly put it once “Opinions are like arseholes, everyone’s got one” :-)
Cheers
Ross
Does it matter if you are only talking about Burn photographers? We are a subset of a lartger field of photographers and we are numerous enough to provide, statistically speaking, more than a representational sample size of the larger set. As I said Burn has had a wide variety of WOPK (make it a general word that could apply to anything, not just photography). Most of the people who disliked every day liked at least some of the WORK presented here. Hence your premise is that if we don’t like Every day we only like one kind of WORK is wrong, wrong, wrong. If you think of Every day as self portraiture, I liked Patrocia’s essay. if you want to call it a study of every day life I liked Postcards, whatever you want to call this there are example of a similar genre that I and others liked. What ties all of those together is that they were honest and had depth and meaning and you could see the value of them to the photographer. I see none of that here.
I dunno, Ben, I think enough people have now said the essay sucks to consider it a done deal.
OK, not exactly photography, but those of you with an interest in optics might want to check this out:
http://web.media.mit.edu/~ankit/bokode/
lens bokeh + bar codes = bokodes!
Jim,
Your internet personaltiy sucks. You have been banned too many times from rangefinder forums to consider it as a done deal.
Mr Pickett Wilson.
Mr sitemistic
Mr Jim Powers.
Your internet personality sucks big time and you shoot squirrels and sprinklers. You have no moral right to be as vocal as you are. You hurt people! I’ve said it once. This is the 2nd iteration. Can’t you be a little less abnormal so we keep calling you Teddy Bear? Please.
A bit more… I think some people miss understood what DAH meant by “authorship”. The authorship comes with deep, artistic, quality work. If the authorship is just for itself, then nobody really cares. During the educational process, of course, it’s very important to emphasize authorship, but in the publications the result is much more important than the authorship.
Haik intones: “You have no moral right to be as vocal as you are.”
Huh?
Huh what Jim? You read it. You want me to make a poll on your internet qualities and morals to hear other opinions such that you don’t only hear “just your own opinion you are entitled to”. Do you want every single photo of yours disected to pieces here on burn such that you know where the bar is?
I as a person don’t go bashing anything like you do when I’m unsure I can do better than what I “bash”. More, I don’t bash – I try to explain myself so it does not sound like a brain fart(thanks Rafal for the epic phrase)
Huh, Jim? Gonna rotf lmao again on me?
Go on.
Haik, you can dissect my poor effort at photography any time you wish. I’m not clear what my ability as a photographer has to to with my comments, though. Does my being a bad photographer preclude my saying nice things about photos, or only negative things about photos? Are we only allowed to comment on photos that are, say, worse than our own?
Losing your cool, though, as you seem to do, is simply counterproductive. I really don’t care what you say about me or think about my photography. Really.
This has gone past the point of ridiculous.
I no longer have an interest in the “dialogue” here.
I will still visit to see the work and comment on it.
Counterproductive? In what, flogging a dead horse? You used to be provocative and stir conversations – now you just bash. Not only photos but also the whole endeavor. Current and future.
Pete- is it me? I’ll apologize if you say so. I don’t mean to turn dialogue into an octagon.
“Pete- is it me? I’ll apologize if you say so. I don’t mean to turn dialogue into an octagon.”
But you did, didn’t you?
Better me do it once than let you exponentially grow into an anarchist. I’m not cool with that, you are right on that.
The question was for Pete – you have a pile of others to think about.
So your post saved Burn from anarchy? Are you threatening me?
Everyone;
I’m sorry it was my comments that started this all off, it wasn’t my intention and I wasn’t being personal. I thought my original comment was pretty inocuous, but obvoiusly not… There’s no way I want to throw a grenade into the room and then casually walk away.
Again; my apologies….
Ross, the proper response to the essay would have been, “It’s the finest essay I’ve ever seen and it has changed my life forever.”
No I m not threatening you in any way, shape or form, implied or direct. I have no interest in that at all. Please do not turn this into that so that you could turn my attention and shut me up.
My whole point is you hurt photographers and some readers of this site by your comments that have no explanation. And I am trying hard to make my point get to you.
Unsuccessfully.
Haik, you give me way too much power. If my words “hurt” the photographers whose work has been shown on Burn, they really need to find another line of work. I am the least of their problems.
I’m not giving you any power – its not in my liberty. Your power is in not moderated forum as we have here. And you are all over it with one-liners that get worse and worse. Burn for you is like a hunt for pray. I don’t recall a single positive one from you. And it aint that you are playing a “devil’s advocate”. You are simply full of negative about it all.
Is that “productive”
Good on ya Ross always figured the buggers over the ditch a bunch of shit stirrers……….must be all that Six Pistols music or is it that brash, boorish, lazy and more than a little stupid sense of humour. Gotta love it though!!!!
Thanks Unka Imants! At last the voice of reason! I’ll just stick with the “little stupid” bit and leave out the humour, at least I know I can live up to that… :-) Mind you I am thinking of jumping on Pete’s bus for a while…
Trouble with Pete’s bus most get off at the next stop and you are left all alone chuckin brown eyes at the back and pulling silly faces in front of the safety cam ………
By the way one of you lot won the Australian Idol……instant karma
Nah, Bob’s in Pete’s bus and I’m just going out for a smoke every other stop. there is company. and cams don’t tape. Can I have the Idol-Titol now for the stink?
Submit ya’all. Submit. Line of dead is coming. Sooner than brains fart.
Back on the bus. Enough of Vitamin-N.
Bring in the crickets.
Imants; “instant karma” and then pretty much instant obscurity!! :-)
Just for you the Sex Pistol’s last performance
BEN…
you are assuming a lot..you are assuming that you know what i have in stock, on the back burner, on the front burner, and how in hell could you know what photographers have submitted what??? you my friend have submitted nothing…nothing…you have not been willing to put yourself up for scrutiny have you?? i happen to like your work, have your print hanging on my wall, but your critique often comes from a lofty perch that you have created for yourself..c’mon, put something on the table…fair enough??
Ross listen to this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2mIgL51qkg I am hopping out to do it
What an innocent young lady http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhPPJ5dolxU&NR=1&feature=fvwp
Just realized the Grand Millennium location, too funny. Nice back alley. It was under construction when I was there … how long ago? really, it’s been that long?
Hey Chance, is that the building you did that great work in? Asoke and Sukhumvit, one block from the pool hall with elvis.
BOYS BOYS…
geez louise…will all of you guys just chill with one another…too damn much testosterone around here…CIVILIAN where are you? human nature is funny….
my “line in the sand” is absolutely not criticism , or doubt, or even attack…being lied to, betrayed, or talked about derisively behind my back is my only time for a total cutoff, which has only happened once here on Burn…..anything short of that is fair game as far as i am concerned…so whatever gets said here is totally fair including from the most cynical..besides, these are comments from some readers, but do not constitute an editorial strategy …
how in hell could Jim, or anyone, destroy Burn with his comments?? again, most readers of Burn do NOT even come into the comment section…so please do not put so so much importance on the comments in terms of Burn policy….the comments do provide an interesting dialogue and are often very helpful to the photographers who are published for their sense of where they may stand…in any case, who loves Burn more than Jim? the boy spends more time here than do i….he well knows that i am going to do whatever i am doing regardless of his comments or anyone else’..Jim also knows from whence i come and i know who he is too…no problem at all for me…or for him….besides , i cannot think of one single criticism here , short of the trolls, that does not have some merit…i do listen…i do read…i also act on my instincts, but please shoot me dead if i move into some kind of vacuum….so Jim says for example Circus a bad idea…he could be right….but of course i plan to very much prove him wrong wrong wrong….and deep deep down inside that is exactly what Jim wants me to do…
many thanks to all of you..just be somewhat nice to each other…something special will still happen at Burn…when Burn is over, as surely all things are over, i will be the first to let it go..but, that time is not here yet…nothing better than the spirit of REVOLUTION…..still more to go…stay tuned…
cheers, david
HERVE…
you know Shrimp?? well, i guess everyone knows Shrimp…anyway, yes i met him years ago when i was making “illegal” excursions into North Vietnam and Kampuchea…i was trying to figure out how to recognize the location and trip wire systems of various land mines (both U.S. and Vietcong) and he was photographing beautiful women..hmmmm, i thought…
sorry i will miss you Herve…
i’m nice now, chief :-).
Ladies and Gentlemen,
thank you for this powerful discussion. It really motivates me, to continue photography.
If you reflect on yourself, what have you done since “Everyday” was published?
You have reflected on photography, and well what you think is not. But it made you think.
About beauty, ugliness. About being part of a group, about so many things.
Your challenge motivates me to get better. To show to you I can do photography.
And those who say “Everyday” does not make them think – didn’t they think more about photography during the last days, than by looking at pictures they like? Reflect yourself and your emotions. Dig deeper.
What you find is yourself.
I have to admit, however, you gave me a hard time. And it made me reflecting on myself too. And I want to thank you for that, too.
Besides that, it is just pictures.
All the best to you all.
Thomas
DAH…
you wrote ‘i do want to do a couple of days of shooting BKK at least to add to my SE Asia archive’
i’d like to ask you a couple of questions on adding to your archive if i may:
when adding to your archive are you looking for something in particular, e.g something that says BKK 2009 ?
or perhaps there is a certain idea you’ve always wanted to capture?
do you set out with a particular goal(s) in mind? or do you just hit the streets and see where it leads you, freestyle?
what are YOU looking for?
and, how many images would you be satisfied with, of your top Magnum level (from 2 days shooting)
would one killer image be enough or perhaps 3 or 10????
i hope you don’t mind me asking you these questions, but i’m very curious and i guess others here would be too.
If i had a day or two to shoot in BKK and it wasn’t part of a particular project i’m not sure i’d know how to approach it and get the best from the opportunity…
thanks and enjoy yourself!
And those who say “Everyday” does not make them think – didn’t they think more about photography during the last days, than by looking at pictures they like?
==============================================================
Thomas,
u are a true gentleman…
not only u survived all that hate,
the jealousy and attacks
but u managed to come out stronger and even more motivated..
as a friend said above something that reminded me of the Beatles’s “Walrus” and Lil Waynes’ true word:
“dont sit on the table if u bringing nothing to it”
Again Thomas…
thank u for your work, thank u for putting yourself into the lines of fire,
thank u for gently “forcing” the cynicals and the pessimists and the “walruses” think..
and more important thank you for
“bringing something from your soul to our table”…
:)
word
…too damn much testosterone around here…CIVILIAN where are you?
i second that…
we need some ouzo in here…
ok.. im going back to sleep…
that was a hell of a fight/s
back from everyday dog walking Gu says …… http://www.etrouko.com.au/iman.htm
I was busy reading the news :
_Former Thai Prime Minister Samak Sundaravej dies
_ Trial of Khmer Rouge prison chief in final stage
_Protecting Jungles: One Way to Combat Global Warming
and I was busy shooting,shooting like there is no tomorrow…
hihihi …I got you
Choke choke
I don’t even have a camera …hihihi
BUT you are my eyes…go out and shout,
I need to be stimulated
tick-talk,tick-talk …the game is on
I LOVE YOU ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
I am the happiest Civilian in the Universe…cause I have the best of the best “souls” all
squeezed here and there … Together we can do our everyday lives little better…
Donate BURNIANS and smile …it feels good…
Judy Garland – Over The Rainbow (Live 1943)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P108ETmJH6I&feature=related
Goodnight…goodmorning…keep the fire on…I LOVE testosterone with ouzo …
hi david
sorry if i came across as being on a lofty perch, not my intention. i’m pretty sure that the comment i left on the everyday essay was the first time i have left a negative comment on an essay in months; i long ago decided that if i didn’t like an essay i would keep my trap shut, and i wish i had stuck to this now. after all, it’s “only photography”. Hands up, I should have been more measured in my response instead of just writing what I thought at the time.
and yes i was being presumptuous when i stated that you probably have other essays in a queue to be published. but then you know, i guess i just figured that a lucie award winning magazine would have people clamouring at the gates to have their work featured. perhaps i’m wrong?
as for me not submitting work – well it’s pretty simple really. in the past 18 months I’ve been working on a single body of work. before that, i was only sitting on old series that I didn’t want to recycle. while I have something tangible now that I’d be happy to publish, I just don’t see Burn Magazine as the right place for my photography. is that fair enough?
in the meantime, so long as burn magazine has unmoderated comments then i’ll stop by and make one every so often. i’ll just try to count to ten first.
:-)
Civi… about the Khmer Rouge Trial:
http://johnvink.com/news/?p=806
And also:
http://johnvink.com/news/?p=803
MR.VINK,
that means that after March 2010 you are coming over for some grilled octapus …red wine
ouzo on the side …
P.S BURN CIRCUS BURN !!! I will be back …
David, I think what strikes me most is the amount of average photography that appears on Burn. It was my hope that we would see the best of the best of emerging photographers represented here. I believe that is how it started out. But lately it’s been an eclectic assortment of competent but not excellent photography. I realize that you are selecting from what is submitted to you, and perhaps it will require a more proactive effort to seek out the very best, but isn’t that who deserves the exposure here?
While I understand there is a real time issue for you and Anton, and that you talk a lot about ways to deal with that, it seems to remain mostly talk. Show us outstanding photography, whatever you have to do to accomplish that.
Shrimp (Paul G.)…… and he was photographing beautiful women..hmmmm, i thought…
——————-
True to character….and you figuring out how not to lose a limb to mines too! :-)))
Funnily, I am doing some serious autumn cleaning at home before my trip, going thru every drawer and tin cookie box, and I found his girlie cards calendar for the year 2001! Still under cellophane!!!
I do not think he was only photographing them….. Well, in our prime, none of us were just photographing them ;-).
Talking about “competent but not excellent” photography, and being “cut-out” (of a deal), I found a whole bunch of stolen pictures of mine on this site, on the page concerned with the thai water festival (called Songkran). Actually, save the top postcard one, all are mine…. Still expecting an answer from them, but if not I will pay them a visit when I get there.
They seem also competent, but not excellent in the ethic department! :-)
http://www.pattayawave.com/?p=information_songkranpattaya
Errr… Their crops too, not mine!
Herve, you’ve got to stop posting your stuff on the Internet!
No stuff, Jim, I promise. Only photos (at low resolutions)… I actually sold a few of these (thanks to the internet, Win some, lose some I guess..) to other outfits. The one with the kid sticking his tongue was on a BKK magazine cover.
JIMMY,
best of the best…hmmmm…
we reached the top BUT we just keep climbing and we keep BURNing …
and we talk and we walk the walk…!!! maybe octapus with beer :)))
P.S HERVE …you got the right to fight… for “PARTYYYYYYY”
“I can’t for the life of me understand some of the reaction here, except that I know from 23 years of personal experience as a parent of a mentally handicapped son, that people are uncomfortable confronting people with physical and mental dis-abilities.”
—————————————————————
Gordon, were you saying that the photographer or the viewers were uncomfortable? I can’t speak for everyone, but as a son growing up with a father that had a physical handicap, I can assure you that is not where my criticism of the Agent Orange story cam from.
Maybe Magnum has the right idea. Put a lot of big, ugly watermarks all over every photo on the web.
Brian, I wasn’t speaking of anyone in particular, sorry if I came off that way.
Re-reading that part of my comment I can see how I could have used another way to touch on the subject.
I’m likely over-sensitive to such issues. Again, sorry if I offended anyone.
Ben,
keep posting, your posts are always direct,incisive and to the point, no flim flam. The skill of the work on your site also shows you know what you are up to.
Cheers
Ian
No offense taken.
Suppose to be a Ladies night out…hmmmmm???
I guess the cat ate the fish, no??? are we there yet???
Well, what are you shooting BURNIANS ???
I’m a vegetarian. I only shoot tofu.
Civi – Gonna be shooting with my new spiffy Panasonic LX3 tonight. What’s not to love?
Vegetarian… sounds familiar…
like…BURNIAN,sexagenarian,diluvian,crossopterygian…etc.etc.
I LOVE YOU ALLLLLLLLL
the game is on
deadline is coming
no time for lurking …
BRIAN,
how much the new spiffy …and why did you buy Panasonic…???
Going on vacation beginning Sunday, and I wanted to bring a compact camera. The panasonic has a Leica lens, shoots HD movies, and got a great review at DPreview:
“The LX3 is an example of a species so endangered that we were beginning to worry it had become extinct – a compact camera that photographers can get excited about. Panasonic has included a large degree of direct control, classy styling and, more importantly, a specification that goes beyond the unthinking ‘larger screen and more megapixels’ trend.”
FRANK, we wish good energy and lovely shootings !!!
and TO ALL BURNIANS ( especially for those who will celebrate Thanksgiving)
we wish you LOVE ,HEALTH and HAPPINESS …
and wherever you are don’t forget the 3 SILENT F’s:
FOCUS , FIRE, FART…
LOVE to all !!!
ouzo on me tonight !!!
Does anyone visit Vision 09 on this Friday in London?
BEN…
fair enough my friend…i too will try count to at least eleven…i really would love to publish the night work i saw of yours when i was in London…you have a very nice subtle flair to your work that i think the readers here would appreciate…the submissions here are many, but the really fine ones are indeed rare….i think that is the nature of photography and the nature of those of us who peruse..we have all seen so many photographs, that it does take something very special to ring the bell….of course, anyone who you know or whose work you think i should see, please let me know…several of our very best essays have come to me on reader recommendation…yours would be most appreciated…
JIM..
i do not recall at any point you being exactly overjoyed with the work presented on Burn…i cannot remember a time when you thought all of the essays “good” and now suddenly they are “bad”….i am sure nobody here remembers any Jim Powers endorsement of Burn since the very beginning…no matter what we do, and SOME things have worked out quite well, you do not like it….now every regularly published magazine i know does go through good “issues” and ones not so good..and i am talking about international magazines with big budgets and highly paid staffs and money to send photographers on assignment…no such thing as 100% perfect publication..just so you know, i would have to say that probably only 10% of the work submitted do we even give a second look, so surely there is a dependency on what comes in…most photography is, in fact, competent but not excellent…and if it were suddenly all “excellent” than that would become the new mediocre and we would then need super excellent and there would never be enough of it and on and on…..i think it has been that way for as long as i can remember viewing work…
you are quite right however in your request for proactive searching/editing as well as relying on submissions..you can help…as i suggested to Ben, please let me know what you see out there that deserves publishing here….Anton and i bust it here Jim, while trying to also maintain careers as working photographers..Anton is immersed with the yakuza in Japan… i will soon be going off on a very committed magazine assignment for several weeks, also working on the American family book, teaching, and working on Burn full time too…not only editing stories, but a whole lot of behind the scenes work that has Burn in a lot of serious media discussions considering we are just a two person operation..surely you must assume things are going on which take up efforts which we do not do “a lot of talk” about…most of what is going on we do not talk about…and won’t until something happens that is real…
now Jim your criticism would be much more helpful and have a whole lot more validity if it was just spiced up once in awhile with just a wee bit of some credit that Burn does deserve this year…the whole media world is watching Burn, but Jim Powers says it ain’t so…well, THAT is fair enough frankly…i am not beyond reproach and i am sure Anton would agree….but, a constant drumbeat of negative thinking just gets old…aren’t you tired of it yourself? i mean you complain of mediocre photography and i must say i am getting a little tired of mediocre critique…or, at least Jim get a hold of a whole month of Burn and critique that in depth and by example, rather than tell us our whole world is falling apart because of one or two essays you do not happen to like..oddly, you liked Mike Young’s piece which ran just last week for heavens sake and a few days later the sky is falling…laughing Jim…funny guy, funny guy….
Actually, David, there are a number of essays I’ve liked and said so. There were more at first than now.
And I recognize you and Anton are probably trying to do too much with too little time. But should that compromise the work shown here? Shouldn’t it be the best of the best? Is your busy schedule an excuse? I have no doubt Burn is a major distraction to your professional life. But you did take on the project. Is it worth the price? (Rhetorical questions not asking for answers).
YOUNG TOM..
i think this is the hotel that James photographed under construction…matches in every way…and Ann, the manager of the Dream Hotel, is now the manager of this hotel…which is i guess why we are here, but still a lot of coincidence…or, is it just another BKK mystery of which there are so many?
JIM…
i never said that our busy schedule had anything at all to do with the content published here…you said that, not me…we do not skip a beat no matter what our schedule….nor did i ever say that Burn was a distraction to my professional life..you said that, not me….it is actually quite the contrary…Anton and i are both very happily busy…having the time of our life…anyway, please be a decent reporter and go back and re-read and analyze the substance of what i DID say…and , yes yes yes, worth every penny of “the price”…by the way, are you a skyper??
Jimbo give the man a hand with stuff…don’t wait til the midnight hour just picket up and run with it
IMANTS…
many thanks for all the singles…will go with them, or at least one of them, as soon as i get home…and home is looking sweeter all the time…also back on skype with you at that time as well…
For what it is worth, after some talk a while back about not a lot of singles, I did recently submit one.
Cheers.
Jim seems to be operating under the assumption that BURN is not wildly successful.
Yes, David. I have Skype.
Tom, David
Yeah! The hotel (and mall I believe) were being constructed on the corner of Asoke and Sukhumvit, up from Soi Cowboy (and those delicious crickets!). It was know as “Interchange 21” at that time, i’m not sure what they planned to call the hotel though?.. I believe the Grand Millennium hotel is in a different location… Unless this is a new one!?… What’s with all this BKK chatter anyway!?
Ah yes, David’s recent workshop in BKK!…
LASSAL
With you on your “authorship” comment.
THOMAS B
You’re the man. The credit belongs to the one who’s IN the arena, right? …been a while since I thought of that particular quote. Does us all good to remember that from time to time :)
PANOS
Is there a transcript of your time with Nikos, or have I missed it, or are you working on it?
JAMES CHANCE..
i am still in BKK and back home on friday…working on a sound track for Nachtwey regarding an upcoming Burn piece…
PRESTON…
yes, funny isn’t it? but we can always use the prodding rod….nobody, certainly not me, wants to rest on any laurels whatsoever..
Mark W,
second of my comments of this page:
https://www.burnmagazine.org/dialogue/2009/10/time-out/comment-page-50/#comments
i will post more in my next meeeting with nikos..
nowadays he is busy with the edit of his new book called ANATOLIA,
his upcoming exhibition in France, and right after that, his
workshop that start soon…
more details here:
http://www.ontheroad.gr/ontheroad/Workshops.html
big hug yall from western greece…left athens last night..
( i need to shave asap )
peace
:)
PANOS…
i think you know that i will be editing your Greek essay right after i return home on dec. 1….please make sure that i have everything you want to show by that time…give Nikos my warmest regards and i want to publish him too….
cheers, david
SAM HARRIS…
yours is a good question….
i have two very large bodies of work…significant archives….one is of course the Spanish/Portugese diaspora from which two books have emerged (Cuba, Divided Soul)…the other is Southeast Asia, from which no books have been derived, but several large magazine projects for Natgeo and others…two major pieces on Vietnam, one on Cambodia (Kampuchea), two essays on Malaysia, one on Sumatra, and an essay on child abuse in Thailand…i never see an “assignment” as only an assignment…an assignment is merely a means of getting to some personal work…..i always look at my involvement as ongoing…i think all of my colleagues at Magnum and other agencies see it the same way…we are never finished once we are interested and committed….
so if i ever have a chance to back to a subject where i have spent time before , i will find any excuse to do so…i do not always know what the outcome will be in terms of publication, but that does not matter….in this case, a workshop in BKK provided my plane ticket and my hotel and that is always enough to get me going…
when i was last in BKK two years ago for my workshop with Jim Nachtwey, i started an esoteric essay called “Dream Hotel”…i was staying in the Dream Hotel and came up with a concept for an essay and perhaps a short film…so, i am sketching sketching sketching……i loved the name of the hotel, the environment surrounding it, and that was enough to give me some ideas…i created a short slide show with music and have had that in my back pocket for the last two years…to describe the content to you would be erroneous because it is not photojournalistic in nature and is totally conceptual (although the work is all bearing witness)..you have to see it to get it…it is most easily described as someone’s dream….so simply, that is what i am doing wandering the streets of BKK now…when i see something, anything, that seems to fit my mood and my concept of Dream Hotel i shoot…mostly this means i am not shooting pictures at all, but looking , thinking, and when that special situation arises that “fits” i move like a maniac…..
now, this also provides photography for my Magnum archive as well on the most basic level..out of the context of Dream Hotel…our archives are our single biggest asset as photographers to be used in so many ways…i always tell my students to only think about three things with their work…their archive, their archive and their archive….this is your investment in your photographic life….your only investment….my past work on all subjects provides present income and will often become the fodder for books , exhibitions etc…
so Sam think about your archive…your body of work….your Dream Hotel…conceptualize, document, live it breath it, be it…your photography is only part of the picture…your ideas and how you put them together is what will count….
thank you for asking a relevant question….
cheers, david
DAVID..:)
yes, yes..
im about to submit more, more, more stuff..
in the meantime, im shooting, shooting..shooting..
brainstorming…but also shooting without a cause..
yes “without a cause”…
subconsciously…and we will see what will come out…
i also have a crazy idea to do in the athens polytechnic
in the next riot..but that would require for me to
get arrested…so far noone from my family agrees with me to proceed..
but we will see..
soonest..
in the meantime , again..
shooting shooting and shooting ( without thinking -too much-)
peace
BANG
erica just blew fish out the water..
DAVID/DAH
I’m with David B –our Erica really did just “blow the fish out of the water” with her essay! And it triggers lots of questions in me. Like how does a photographer incorporate soundtracks like Erica’s into their books? Is it possible to include a DVD with a photo book? I know she can present the recorded material transcribed into words but then you lose the music of their voices. And Erica’s subjects speak in such a uniquely Brooklyn way. It is so touching to hear their comments and stories as told in their own voices.
And what about the possibility of turning this into a short documentary film? Am I right that all she’d have to add would be some video shots with the visuals and sounds of the place and the people speaking? She could also use many of the stills and recorded interviews and sounds she already has. Of course, editing would be a whole task in and of itself, but I’m sure Erica could do that in the same professional way she does everything.
I think of Maisie Crow and her work. Have you seen Maisie’s work, David? If not, it’s well worth taking a look. Be sure to have your sound on. Here’s a link to two of her multimedia pieces:
http://www.maisiecrow.com/pages/5/MULTIMEDIA/MULTIMEDIA/
There are now so many ways to present photography. It is so exciting! Do you ever contemplate going multimedia in your own work, David? I’ve just started playing with it a bit myself and am beginning to get the bug.
So yes, books are great, but in 2009, don’t you think there are other ways to make your mark as a photographer? I’d love to hear your reflections on this…
Patricia
DAVID
I just read the comment you posted in response to Sam Harris’ question. So yes, you are already thinking/creating multimedia work. Of course having two sons who are filmmakers doesn’t hurt in terms of having mentors available! But now I think of your “Off for a Family Drive” project. Do you have recorded interviews with these folks? Could it go multimedia in addition to becoming a book?
Patricia
Multimedia is cool, I love the technical aspects of its creation. But it is vapor, fleeting eye candy, without substance. Physical books are what matter. A thing you can hold in your hand. A thing that calls from my bookcase. I’m certainly no luddite, there are four computers surrounding me here in my home office. But in the end, it is the books that will remain and have significance.
I agree with Jim, regarding the books. However Multimedia presentations make the work complete. The sound, the interviews (I wished the smell could be transported, too) make it something different than the book.
The book then is for persistency.
It is in the mix.
Patricia,
the book : Take Care of Yourself by Sophie Calle, there is a dvd, I agree with you, I think it’s very good idea for a project of Erica
I agree with the multi-media for presentation, especially within a working, professional, environment.
Of note, “for the fun of it” amateurs have mixed audio/movie/pix medias for years now on the net, this is only new as concerns one’s career in such media, IMO.
And of course, movie documentarists have mixed them for decades, without the need for concision and instant impact that seems the crux of the problem for Photographers, but like Jim, not sure it’s a keeper in the long run as one’s Art, so to speak.
I also think the book with DVD/CD is still a bit of a cute format, often comes off as extra-marketing too, even though that was not the artist’s intent, maybe.
Also, think that when you look at a DVD movie or you listen to a music CD, you actually look at a movie or listen to music (the matrix is forgotten).
The point being that with photos, you look at a DVD, or a CD with photos in it, not quite the photos, directly. Maybe because of the need for navigation, and also the fact that images do inhabit a realm quite different from movies or music. The impact of a picture is more instantaneous, more visceral than the other medias (as visceral as these may be too), and therefore, if impact is delayed thru multi-media techniques, they become part of a whole. Obvious of course, but that may be detrimental in the sense that they become images, imagery, not photography.
a bit off topic now as i see, but thanks all for the camera backpack comments…. i already checked it in the shop (the Kata in small), and makes alot of sense but will wait for a bigger volume and alternative lowepro to arrive in the shop.
thomas, jim and herve… as for the presention/multimedia… i mentioned it on erica macdonlands new essay – i think it is a matter of talking photographic language. usually boring, irritating, pointless, not interesting and coherent… but again, maost important is that there is a Languege called photography, and it is mute and static essentially. sounds in photography, great, make me imagine them, motion, also great, make me imagine it, but dont want to hear it and to see a broken movie. it is just like using lots of english words in russian conversation or in hebrew…. it is ok for englishman who cannot speak fluently russian, but for a creator that calls him/herslf “photographer” it is “less ok”because “trendy” is not a good enough reason to accompany good photos with sounds etc. photography is rich enough and capable enough on its own…
DAH,
thanks for such an interesting and valuable reply.
of course now i’m more than curious to see your esoteric essay ‘Dream Hotel’ : )))
“…your ideas and how you put them together is what will count…”
ideas i have, thankfully, BUT ‘how you put them together’ can often be a challenge.
i often have clusters of images that i really like but struggle with the best way to use them.
three small essay’s or one bigger project?… borders… i am an expert at making myself dizzy…
i guess my Dream Hotel is my Postcards from Home, it keeps growing, which i’m very excited about (incidentally, after having it published here on burn it encouraged me immensely, i’ve been shooting with a new confidence, freedom and focus. in just a few weeks after publication i had collected quite a few images, better than the previous (i think) almost enough for another essay – i’d like to show you…) but i also have other personal work starting to appear that could arguably fit into postcards and expand it, that’s my dilemma – invite my friends in, share something of their lifestyles and our common values… or keep them separate… even though our worlds do interweave naturally for the most part…
there is, i believe, a lot of interesting subject matter in my neck of the woods… i can see a few editorials on individual subjects, but i can also see them merge as one…
i’m not sure how to best compartmentalise, i could really use your input…
perhaps i could e-mail you a link to some of this new work and get your opinion?
cheers
sam
ooops, i mean putting sound to good photographs is usually boring irritating pointless and not interesting… i must read before i click “submit” :)
Patricia,
I,too, have been wondering what comes ‘next’,after books.
Jim and Thomas hit on the fact that books do have a staying power that most other
media options don’t project.
That being said, evolution is inevitable and an additional way of presenting our work surely
is around the corner.
I’ve got a couple of dozen books that come with an accompanying DVD and, to be honest, don’t
even take them out of their sleeves. Presented this way, i find the content to be simply a
throw in that doesn’t necessarily reflect the mood of the printed book.
Looking at something like the Kindle and factoring in the serious rumors that Apple and others
have slick ‘HD’ media tablets coming soon I can imagine a scenario where there will be a platform
much like the iTunes store where individuals will be able to purchase and download hi-res versions
of what we now regard as multimedia pieces created, and produced by, perhaps, you and me.
I know for a fact that I would fork out a few bucks per piece to be able to create my own library
of content and be able to organize it in such a way that I, essentially, am ‘editing’ together
visual playlists that reflect my interests.
Over the past 3-4 years I have come across a ton of powerful multimedia/ slideshows that I can no
longer access and would be the type of person that would pay to have this content available, on demand.
Perhaps, this type of technological evolution could be part of the solution that could offset the
diminishing options many photographers now face regarding publication.
Author your own pieces and sell directly to consumers thereby bypassing the barriers currently in
place by publishers, etc.
If the content is good and the media presentation is done in a way that does not interfere with
the experience as Herve notes with DVD navigation there I’m convinced there are many more,like me,
who will support these endeavors with our wallets.
Mtomalty, you’re really thinking about a promising direction, thanks for stimulating the juices to flow in my own brain. I think many of us should be casting our ideas in that direction… something a bit like a Kindle but in HD format with high resolution and accurate color, and sound as well… that you can hold in your hands, that you can hit the ‘pause’ button on… if it’s the same size as a book and the visual quality is rich (and NO gutter!), I could easily see it eventually capturing a significant market of downloadable multi-media pieces. Lots of ideas spinning off from that basic platform…
I watched Erica’s piece first once without the sound, then with it twice through, and now if I watch it without the sound it definitely feels like something is missing. I’ve had the same experience with my own slideshows recently. I’ve dabbled in video a bit in the past and have recently been thinking about it again, but the more I think about the power of multimedia pieces, the more I feel that good sound is really the key, more important than, and more ‘bang for the buck’ than, motion per se… Erica, I hope you will tell us something about how you assembled the sound portion of your piece, your recording and editing tools, etc.
If we get enough photo essays going with sound, maybe we should change the name of this online magazine to “BURN, CRACKLE, and BURN.”
The evolution of devices like the Kindle could be a game changer for sophisticated multimedia presentations by photographers. Something interactive with photographer interview, an option for a running commentary from the photographer that talks about their thinking while taking the individual photos, etc. These devices simply aren’t there…yet. That kind of content would interest me, though.
http://www.macrumors.com/2009/11/24/magazine-publishers-teaming-up-for-digital-publishing/
Only rumors, of course, but where there’s SMOKE, there’s FIRE, and where there’s a FIRE
there’s a BURN.
As far as commentary/info on individual photos of a project goes, Brooks Jensen (of LensWork) has been doing it for some time now. For example:
http://www.brooksjensenarts.com/new100/content/Dancing_in_the_Face_of_Entropy_2007_large.html
Too much concern about oneself not enough about the work itself……….get over it, get on with it, do it.
MTOMALTY…SIDNEY
i love books…you can hug a book…and print magazines too….but, surely the new Apple tablet will revolutionize everything…i am quite sure that my very next magazine assignments coming up will be my last..well, not my last personally, but just the last…i do think the tablet will revolutionize everything including books..i mean print books…they will become more individualized, closer to handmade, limited editions etc…but, the way of communicating with the world will be through the tablet and your big flat screen at home……and content will be king…gotta have something to show on the tablet….everybody get your cameras and your ideas out…lots of work to do…
oh yes, Sidney, you are so so right…the sound with stills is the thing…video and stills mixed is way overused just because photographers can do it….but the sound with stills is special…video is its own thing and hardly ever looks good with stills imo…i did not say never, i just said hardly ever….
cheers, david
Content may become king, but like everything on the web, they won’t be willing to pay anything for it.
The window for the “accompanying DVD” with a book is quickly closing. The MacBook Air doesn’t even have an optical drive, and such media are soon to go the way of the floppy. Video and sound belong on the web, and more and more authors (non-photographers) are producing “trailers” to go with their books.
Erica’s piece here on BURN would make a great trailer, the centerpiece of the book’s website, for when the printed volume is released.
MTOMALTY…
sorry, i missed the last part of your comment…you and many others will be willing to pay for this content…just as we all pay for what we really like…corporations, sponsors, grant givers, and individuals will all jump in and want to identify with good content…this is the big scramble now….the next six months will sort out the content providers…just as you now for 99cents can get an app for your iphone, you will be able to do the same or similar on your new tablet….human nature dictates all of the above…free might be for now, but low cost and high quality content, just as you describe, will be where it all goes i am sure…folks aren’t just suddenly going to stop wanting content just because the media companies can no longer provide it…..readers, viewers, will get it a different way, but they will get it… surely this is the most exciting communication revolution of all time..
cheers, david
DAVID,
Reading your comments about the Dream hotel, it made me want to see this piece of work… I used to really enjoy when you were sharing bits and pieces of your own work with us…of course not to divulgue it prematurely but you know, seeing what you are also up to is always interesting…. Now having said this, I know that it is always better to show a final piece of work so, I might have to be patient here :):):)….
I will have to go bed early tonight as I have a depressing 6am flight to catch but cannot resist to say again what a nice feeling is was this evening to see some great photography. Erica’s work made me think, touched me and I have watched the essay a good 10 times by now… The bar has been raised today:) by a very gifted photographer….
OK….bed now….
Eric
PRESTON..
yes, of course Erica should use this with her book….anyone contemplating a book should take heed…incidentally, my last three books have all had either films, videos, or multi media pieces to go with them…part of the exhibitions and online and on tv..and more sophisticated versions will come soonest with new projects for all of us…with the tablet of course you can have everything in one place…e-books will become the future for mass distribution , and as i said earlier, i think this will drive print prices higher for the niche market and place even higher value on limited edition print books as well…exciting times indeed…
cheers, david
There is nothing that revolutionary about the apple tablet just another viewing device content is still up to the viewer. Nothing that magazines cannot be done on a netbook, laptop computer etc…….The main redeeming feature is that we will be able to present more content in portrait format, widescreen and the affiliated www dot applications have just about killed it.
Multi projector slide shows were tops. Having just finished my first “multi-media” piece,I’ve got to say I just can’t get enough. I think there is something very primal about combining still imagery with sound. For some reason I think our minds store snapshots and replay sounds. Count me in for a sound recording device. It adds so much richness.
As long as I can remember all gatherings to celebrate were done so with a slideshow and now the PowerPoint. It just seems to connect. Happy Thanksgiving ya’ll out in Burnsville.
Stills sound combo has been around in the art world as a presentation well before sliced bread
.. at least! our friend Olga Kravetz was finalist in Aftermath project 2010. I’m so happy. Olga CONGRATULATION!!!!
Re: books and multimedia, I do know that seeing Ed Kashi’s premier of the video that goes with hsi latest book Three made me want to buy the book even more.
That said, I recently realized one reason a Kindle or similar device won’t replace books for me when traveling….on the airplane, you can’t have them on (along with the other electronic devices) until you’re at 10,000 feet….I typically read during boarding, taxi, takeoff….
That and the fact that you must have a power source. Hard to think of reading a Kindle during a blackout by candlelight.
Happy holiday to all….I know that I have much to be thankful for…and much to appreciate. I wish everyone the best…and good light.
A.
I trust I’m not representative of any sizable demographic, but the slideshow on a nice monitor is my preferred way of viewing photos. That’s what I like about burn. Lots o’ slideshows.
I’d consider paying five or ten dollars for, say, a slideshow with 50 to 75 images. Accompanying audio or music might be nice, but I’m okay with supplying my own. Copyright is a big problem for these kinds of projects. Unfortunately, Nick Cave won’t give me permission to use his work with my slideshows. It’s tough enough to produce that many interesting photos, then you have to compose and perform your own music as well. And in most cases, Garageband just doesn’t cut it.
But until you all start producing these slideshows I might want to buy, I’ll just have to continue producing my own entertainment. There are many days I go out to shoot just to have something new to watch.
DAH, Eric, ALL…
Just reading your two comments which combined (at least in my mind) bring up a subject I’ve been wanting to see discussed here:
DAH (posted under Erica’s essay) about “taking the time to do it right”
and
Eric’s wanting to see your new work but not wanting you to “divulge it prematurely”
Make me wonder…WHEN IS THE RIGHT TIME TO SHOW YOUR WORK? When is too soon? Not soon enough?
Of course the answer is different for each photographer/each project but I’d love to hear more on this subject.
I’ve been working on two projects I’m very excited about and as much as I’d love to share them, I just don’t feel ready. I want to shoot more, edit more and don’t want any negativity at this point, it feels too tender to expose…so obviously it’s too soon for me to show this work.
I guess at some point it will be clear that I’m ready to show but it’s also nice to get feedback early on. Is there such a thing as waiting too long?
I’d love to hear some comments/personal stories about this.
I’ll agree that the technology in a tablet style device is hardly revolutionary but what
I’m hoping/speculating is that a distribution network a la iTunes store will follow suit which
would help empower the creative individual/group in a way that, to date, has not been available.
Though the printing press has been around for centuries they have been off limits for all but
the rarified few until companies like Blurb repackaged the idea and embraced newer technologies
to put publishing in the hands of the individual.
Now,for better or worse, I can create a book of my own but where the idea stalls, as a working
professional who needs a return a little better than bragging rights, is distribution.
Ebooks or eStories or multimedia, I think are the logical evolution and a tablet type device,
if done correctly, is a way to help fulfill that evolution.
The liklihood that enough people would buy my book to the degree that it covers printing
expenses and generates enough profit to move forward is slim to none.
A well-constructed eBook containing content that enough people would be interested in and
priced at something like $2.99 or $3.99 gets to a level that starts to be interesting for
a critical mass of buyers to purchase without any difficulty.
Jazz it up with the option for motion and audio and I believe there lies a basic recipe for
many photographers to succeed, moving forward, in a business/publishing climate that does not
provide much optimism.
It’s a discipline thing once you start playing around and no longer in the loop in this case of photographer > project > audience it is time to stop …… there is nothing to be gained by going over and over the same stuff. Many a painter,concetualist etc has gone that one step too far and the work loses all relevance, loses freshness and becomes a bin job.
“..on the airplane, you can’t have them on (along with the other electronic devices) until you’re at 10,000 feet….I typically read during boarding, taxi, takeoff…”
Andrew
I haven’t flown commercially in the last couple of years but are ipods now not permitted
during these events? because I see a tablet work much the same way an ipod would-in basic form
a storage and playback system that set up to the users individual tastes.
I also don’t see a tablet replacing print editions but complementing them.
Imants, but who’s to say we all have to be struggling artists.
Can’t some of just be decent photographers with small businesses that need, or wish,
to realize a profit to continue doing what we love.
If someone else wants to produce work then stick it on top of something else then burn it or
piss on it or smear their own shit on it and then hang it in a gallery then by all means be my guest.
I’m just not the target audience.
MTOMALTY,
Once again, I think that you’re on just the right wavelength here. Whether the Apple tablet in its first incarnation will be the ideal platform for viewing multimedia or not is not really the question… once the distribution model for such content is established in the way that iTunes/iPod are now, eventually the appropriate user-friendly hardware for downloading, storing, and viewing will evolve. Democratizing the access to commercial distribution is really the key. Exciting stuff to think about.
And Michael Webster, you are not alone in liking to watch photo-audio slideshows on a good monitor. Even on my little laptop, I think it’s a good presentation device. On a big monitor, so much the better. I love books, my family has always measured its wealth in books, I’ve spent thousands of dollars shipping boxes of my own books around the world… but I’ve never, ever been reconciled to the gutter in photo books or photo magazines and I won’t mourn its demise. My ideal ‘tablet’ would be about the thickness and weight of a Kindle, but with a surface viewing area like the screen on a 17″ laptop computer.
I was replying to Cathy about when a project is completed
Imants, but who’s to say we all have to be struggling artists. ????????????
………. so what are you rabbiting on about I never mentioned struggling, you made that one up. What are you on about??
I don’t see why consumers won’t pay for this sort of downloaded content. I have been thinking that this is the way forward for photography for a couple of years. I mean they currently pay for Podcasts don’t they, what’s the difference ? It’s all digital content. Some people have made a lot of money selling Podcasts Ricky Gervais has made a great deal of money selling them for less than a dollar each, he’s sold millions. These have been bought online mostly by young people as well as myself !
What can be a more perfect way to increase your income by selling your work online for people to stream onto their large screen HD monitors to view in the comfort of their living rooms? Gone will be the days of trying to find a publisher, you can be the publisher yourself. Perfect, absolutely perfect.
Don’t be such a pessimist Jim.
Imants
Apologies. I mistakenly assumed you were responding to another post.
…rabbiting, no more!
Imants, yes thanks.
I’ve never paid for a podcast. Guess I didn’t realize anyone actually sold them. I wouldn’t pay for the type of downloaded content we’re talking about. Or, rather, I woudn’t pay much for it. Buying digital content “feels like” buying air. It has no substance, no mass, and does not feel valuable. It’s also fragile as eggs, disappearing with the vagaries of the container that holds it. I pass by my bookshelves, see a photo book and take it down on a whim, looking at the pages again and again, because I see it there. Digital content once consumed becomes invisible, and I’m unlikely to revisit it unless I am deliberately searching for it. Because of that, it is less valuable to me.
I have thousands of songs on various Ipods, but tend to listen to the same relatively few albums because I really have to decide I want to revisit them. My racks of CD’s, though, call out to me. I’ll be looking for one thing and see another. The CD’s have substance, mass. Physically and psychologically. They have more “value” to me than the digital versions of the same album.
I’m not sure I want to encourage disposable media any more than it already exists today. All photography on the Internet is disposable. And therefore less valuable. And I don’t think you can invent a virtual container for it that will give it real value in consumer’s minds.
mtomalty..
“I haven’t flown commercially in the last couple of years but are ipods now not permitted
during these events? because I see a tablet work much the same way an ipod would-in basic form
a storage and playback system that set up to the users individual tastes.”
That’s correct – one airline has now even added a specific reference to “the new electronic books” when they ask you to shut off electronic devices before when the door is closed after boarding. The other day I saw/heard a flight attendant ask someone in the row across from me to remove his headphones and turn off his iPod (the ipod is usually mentioned as well)….he said it wasn’t on. she asked him to remove the headphones and stow the device anyway….
I take it all with a grain of salt….while I may personally not think it is necessary, it is FAA regulations. The rule is NO electronic devices – even approved ones – between the time the aircraft door is closed and when the pilot indicates it’s ok to use them, which is usually when the aircraft reaches 10,000 feet (if you are near the front and listen, you’ll hear the pilot hit the chime a single time to indicate that altitude, after which the flight attendant comes on and says it’s ok to turn on approved devices).
Give me a library that loans paperbacks (ours does :) and I’m happy.
good light,
A.
I agree with Jim about the virtual container thing. That’ll never catch on. It’s like my pappy said about flash photography. Better to just pull your car up and light the scene with the headlights. In-camera light metering? Don’t get him started about that. Auto-focus? Ha. Photoshop? (feverishly crosses self, recites incantation). As for delivery, people will never read a newspaper or magazine on a computer screen, much less a whole book. The sweet feel of ink on fingers, the palpable realness of quality paper… Those uniquely visceral qualities can never be replaced by no pixels bub. Can’t read a newspaper on the subway. Nor on the can. Neh?
But I have to admit that digital does have a few advantages. Computer files are lighter for one thing. I read somewhere that all those National Geographics stacked in people’s basements would eventually sink the continents. Still, even with the weight advantage, I doubt the young folk will ever go for it. They are very resistant to change, you know.
But if I’m wrong, and times do change, I’m not entirely pessimistic about the future. I bet more people watch photo slideshows on computers now (Flikr, IPhoto, blah blah blah) than ever read Life magazine back in the day, much less went to a gallery show or bought a photo book. If people like watching slideshows of their own crap so much, the trick will getting them to want a better slideshow enough to pay a few dollars for one.
CATHY…
i am not quite sure what you mean by showing your work…i have been interested in looking at your work ever since Road Trips days and have done so and with private critique as well…you may also put a link here anytime for group feedback…many used to do that, but for some reason that has stopped….if by showing , you in fact mean publishing, that is another story…i think you simply mean exposing to this audience or any audience…is that correct? or, do you simply mean critique?
in any case, i understand your reluctance to show work…believe it or not , i am very reluctant to show my work as well…had i not become professional and paid/forced to show work, i am sure all of my pictures would be in a closet somewhere…even now i must be leaned on to show…i am always waiting for just the “right time” too and usually i feel there are more pictures to take before i show..fear might be part of it…now i only show my work to workshop audiences (again, i must) or make a magazine or book…there is generally no in-between for me…so, the point is , it is all personal for each of us…now Erica says she did go around and get feedback from many…that would not work for me, but it does work for her and for many photogs i know…of course there is a difference between feedback and endorsement and i think she was looking for endorsement…she can tell you….
however, you may choose to do the same one on one experience or you may post a link here at any time…many photographers choose to just have one mentor who sees their work, and then they publish or show…this is up to you…so, as i have always said to you, post a link for all to see, or send me a link for private critique etc whenever you feel the time is right…
cheers, david
David; “e-books will become the future for mass distribution”
So do you think that in the end there will only be the two levels of publishing? E-books and limited edition books? It seems to me that you think limited editions are the way of the future?
Yet when it comes to e-books I can’t see how Larry Towell’s Mennonites and Front Porch books would work as well as e-books? They seem to be a sort of cross between limited edition quality and main stream publishing?
Cheers.
All photography on the Internet is disposable. And therefore less valuable. And I don’t think you can invent a virtual container for it that will give it real value in consumer’s minds……….. Luv it……. http://www.iamparanoid.net/
DAH,
Yes, I think you understood. Exposing to an audience is what I meant.
I was responding to Eric’s comment to you that he…
“used to really enjoy when you were sharing bits and pieces of your own work with us…of course not to divulgue it prematurely”
It was the “divulge it prematurely” part that motivated me to comment.
Wondering where the fine line between “premature” and “mature” (or ready to show) is.
Your response about reluctance to show is what I was asking about.
I’d also like to hear from others regarding exposing work to an audience.
I will look forward to hearing what Erica has to say but I imagine she was extremely discriminating in who she asked for feedback.
I never felt the need to wait for the “right time” before but perhaps I should have. :))
You know what they say about first impressions.
I am well aware that you and many others are happy to view my photos and VERY MUCH appreciate that.
I absolutely look forward to doing so.
Have a wonderful Thanksgiving!
On the Cathy DAH thread,
DAH I am mighty relieved to hear you have a natural reluctance to show. The driving force to show, the extra push is provided by the paid/professional aspect. Often when shooting commissions, I get out, get the job done, load it all up to the hard drive, start sorting/editing/adjusting get that done, then I have a real lack of confidence/reluctance to let the work go and it will take a few days for me to get the dvd in the post. So often when it lands on the commissioners desk the response is immediate and positive and all my worries are dissolved.
I am in the process of getting an exhibition ready at the moment, it is due to open next weds. I have procrastinated and dithered but now finals are decided and I must just go for it but still dreading it. It feels almost too boastfull/egotistical to have and exhibition just by me, I wish it was just about the work and that in someway I wasn’t involved. I have had exhibitions in the past and inevitably things work out fine, but the run up is excrutiating.
Funnily enough i don’t feel the same pressure when exhibiting on the interthingymijig….
Cheers
ian
IAN AITKEN
well, first of all , congratulations on your show…nothing better than an exhibition…even better than a book in some ways in terms of gut reaction to the work, although ultimately ethereal as it comes down just as it went up…yes, as you say, the run up is excruciating…you get to a certain point of commitment and then you just have no choice but to go forward….
ROSS…
for sure i do not think that printed books will disappear and will in fact flourish on an even higher plane than they are now…human nature dictates always a boutique business…no matter how much the masses are satiated with material for free and easy etc etc., there will always be the discriminating buyer..exists in everything we know…i do not think one thing precludes the other…for example Larry’s Mennonites would be what i would classify in the limited edition mode…it could also exist as an e-book, though for us probably not as satisfying…for some it might be fine…whether a photographer chose an e-book model or a limited edition model or both would just be choice ..or perhaps economics..not much difference in my mind between and e-book and a printed magazine…most printed magazines are read once and thrown away just as the internet is disposable..few magazines are kept..Natgeo being the sometimes exception..they are kept, but does anybody really go back and re-read? it is a quality of manufacture that is probably the reason they are stored in the attic..nobody can bear to throw them away simply because of the manufacturing, not necessarily the content…
in any case, i think readers will buy disposable internet products so to speak..just as they pay for television which is as ethereal as content can get or their daily newspaper which ends up as a fire starter or fish wrap…the internet and television will meet sooner rather than later…and none of it is going to be detrimental to the high end of print display….
as Imants said, multi-media shows have been around forever..even my first grant was to produce a multi-media show 40 years ago…crude yes by today’s standards, but a multi-media show nevertheless…in any case, i think that very small companies who can produce good content will be able to sell this content either to the consumers or to sponsors….it is impossible to imagine a world where there was no quality content…again, just against everything we know about human nature…and , yes, human nature is the only thing to think about in all that we discuss…biz will follow human nature….not the other way around….
cheers, david
PATRICIA…
yes, Off For A Family Drive will have a film or video component..just as Living Proof, Divided Soul and Cuba…the exhibitions for all do have flat screen presentations of either the making of or a film in an of itself..and television shows for all as well….i have never not made multi-media shows since i was in my early twenties..at one point it was three carousels tied together and with black slides and a reel to reel tape recorder, but it was multi media…as you well know, Michael’s job at any workshop is to create a rough multi-media slide show at the end of every class…we are only limited by what the students can do in a few days…some do it quite well as did John Bush whose essay was here recently…i think that young photographers are becoming more sound savvy all the time and i rarely do a class now where at least some of them are doing quite sophisticated sound capture….
yes, both of my sons do broadcast television documentaries and occasional features…i do leave them to their own territory of course, but Bryan and i did work on a Cuba film together…he is at this very moment on a long world wide project where he is shooting with his hi def video camera AND shooting some stills and video with the 5D…Erin was nominated for an Emmy this year for his documentary Gorilla Wars in Rwanda and has now spent the last few months on an Obama and the press movie….both men are constantly in demand, so there is certainly no unemployment in their biz which might tell us something…so, there is my proud dad comment for the year!!
cheers, david
Even if there is no money there still will be, there is, there was quality content…….some people have a passion no matter the cost. There are those that gain others the luck may not fall their way and there are those that seek the new.
“in any case, i think readers will buy disposable internet products so to speak..just as they pay for television which is as ethereal as content can get or their daily newspaper which ends up as a fire starter or fish wrap”
Few people would actually buy television programming (at its true cost) if they actually had to directly plunk down the dollars to fund the garbage that appears there. It’s only because they pay for it indirectly by buying overpriced advertised products at the grocery store that they are “willing” to do so.
And fewer everyday are willing to but the disposable news in a daily newspaper.
There is an old saying that was popular in reference to the web before the rise of the “commercial internet” in the mid 1990’s. Information wants to be free. Attempts at changing that dynamic have not been very successful in the last 15 years.
Podcasts from iTunes are for free. You cannot actually buy them.
However, iTunes has other channels to sell documentaries. I believe the business model for content will change over the years. There will be a big chung of small content for free. There will be a lot of (relatively cheap) printing on demand. And there will be exclusive and expensive “Hardware” editions. i.e. Books.
The internet is the “free” mass distribution channel. Whatever content one creates, there will always be someone doing it for free. However, quality and exclusivity will cost money. That is a model customers understand.
The business model for documentary work may change. That makes things in some areas easier, in some areas one needs to adapt. (See the music industry as an example of bad adaptation)
I could imagine to have constant channels for free (Twitter, Facebook, Podcasts, Youtube…) to show the competence of the documenter, creating small snipets to feed the curiosity. (In essence a marketing, advertising medium)
The second channel would be the classical mass-media: TV, Magazines
The third channel are books.
A fourth channel now develops: eBooks, paid downloadable content, often supported by TV Stations or other Media Companies, but it also opens the possibility for individuals. The limits are just by technology, which is relatively cheap. eBay might become a distribution channel for paid content.
By using the “free” channel – one may drag the people into the other channels. This has the advantage, the message gets distributed and the people who are really interested also pay. The ones who embrace this model early will have an experience advantage over all others.
BURNIANS,
Grecoland …problem with the internet connections…
western area affected …PANOS …only landlines…
we are really out in the bushes …oime
I will be back … at least we have radio …
be back…one day …I hope soon
LOVE
THOMAS….JIM
IMO , Thomas is about right…yes, information does want to be free, particularly educational information…..it will be free….should be free….what i am talking is not pure information, but quality AUTHORED content and the derivative spin offs…books, prints, etc……again, similar to pay tv…
cheers, david
i´ve been jiggling with my website..
http://bophoto-mumblings.blogspot.com/2009/11/web-site-jiggling.html
not got a podcast section as yet :ø)
I’d say make the layout fluid or widen the columns. Not many folks are using 800×600 monitors anymore and your page is scrunched up in the middle of the screen. The huge expanse of white that remains on my 24 inch monitor is blinding.
cheers jim..
trying to balance between laptop and desktop users..
minimum i figure on is 1024×768..
David, even my 15″ laptop monitor is 1280 pixels. I usually design for 1000 pixels wide, which seems to be common these days.
Or, rather, design pages that are 1,000 pixels wide.
okay – thanks again jim.. will bear it in mind when i tuck into it again tomorrow.. have been working to an image size of 550 longest side.. will up it to 600 square..
want to keep them relatively small..
am off for the day soon..
just watched ERICAs presentation again..
very good..
thanks again..
the monitor i have used is the same res as your laptop which explains the choice of slide-show size.. will set up a larger one tomorrow and tuck back into it.
very helpful.
have recently realized how many browser issues there were with it, which is in part why i began looking at it again.
badly missing my broken archive HD as i´m so tired of the same old snaps being up there.
d
david alan harvey
November 25, 2009 at 10:23 pm
CATHY…
i am not quite sure what you mean by showing your work…i have been interested in looking at your work ever since Road Trips days and have done so and with private critique as well…you may also put a link here anytime for group feedback…many used to do that, but for some reason that has stopped….
whaaaaaaaat?
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????
stopped? i do it all the time..:)))))))))
not necessarily for critique, but mostly for the need to express…
here expressing my love to my niece…
laughing…
anyway very slow internet for the last two days plus a mild form of pneumonia kept
me out of the game ..but here it is.
A form of expression regarding the love that i have for my little niece…
Enjoy ..
from the super slow ( at every level )grecolandia
slideshow below:
http://picasaweb.google.com/innerspacecowpanos/Tif16?authkey=Gv1sRgCJHFta-t1oLNHA#slideshow/5408386936075671762
David Bowen,
I’m using a 13″ Laptop (1280×800), I think it is possible to widen.
What I saw with your website, however was: if I had the page at the top, the controls below the pictures were hidden away. Shifting the whole picture upwards by 10 pixels should solve that.
thanks thomas.. it´s been a problem with tying to keep the slideshow frame square so that vertical and horizontal photos appear the same size..
will see what i can do, although to find a balance between 13″ and desktop might be tricky.. formatting for a desktop would win..
thanks
d
david bowen,
fair enough. It’s a shortcoming of the wide (laptop) screens to lose the space for vertical pictures.
So optimizing of Desktops is good.
All,
Happy Thanksgiving!
Happy Thanks Giving ..
biatchesssssssss!!!!!!!!!!!!!:)))))))))))))
as an aside thomas – i´ve always wanted a remote controlled helicopter..
you´re a lucky man.
d
DB
Don’t know if this helps but I use a template created by foliolink.com, my web deseigner/host. They have me resize my pics to no more than 475 pixels in height saved at 9 instead of 12 image quality. Most of my pics on my website are horizontal so what makes them 475 pixels in height and 713 pixels in width. You can check it out by clicking on my name.
By the way, I have no desktop and do everything on my MacBook Pro with its 17″ screen.
David, I love the images in your homepage slideshow!
Patricia
thanks patricia..
slideshow pro, as a flash add on, resizes the photos to fit whatever sized frame i dictate.. so i just have them all 900dpi longest side and change the size in flash.
i think the photos on your site are a good size.. going to push mine up to 600 longest side i think, on reflection of yours and jims words.
ta very much
:ø)
Jerome..:)
loose…hmmm..as loose as this, is what i like..
big hug
I guess it’s all in the eye of the beholder about what is “loose” and what is “tight.” I wonder if there could be a bit of a discussion about this question. Yes, I appreciate seeing examples but I’d love to hear people speak in words about how they would define “loose” and “tight” in terms of photography. I know Panos posted a quote from Paolo Pellegrin in which he spoke of the value of “unfinished” photography that is suggestive, that triggers memories and such. In contrast he spoke of “finished” photography that is “closed…to which there is no way in.”
How do you see it? Not so much in terms of the work of any specific photographer, but in terms of your own way of shooting. Is this concept of loose/tight, finished/unfinished in your mind as you work? If so, how do you get what you want?
Patricia
Hey David B. You can go a lot larger if you like… You mentioned that you wanted to keep the images small, but I presume you are talking about the file size rather than the dimensions? Bigger isn’t always better, but in terms of viewing lovely photos… i’ll take ’em as large as I can get! I managed to push the images on my site up to 1500×1000 px and they load fine. Using the save for web function and saving at “60” should compress enough without any visible loss of quality, you can go lower if you need. 2OOkb images will load fine on a broadband connection… And thats all I worry about really… nobody is really using dial-up these days.
…nobody is really using dial-up these days…
laughing..
yeah right…the dsl in grecolandia is slower than dial up…way slower..yikes
i think erica has achieved some excellent loose compositions – even on the vertical – which also betray a talent for composition and an educated eye for the subject she is shooting – her own backyard.. where she has been for years.. persevering..
the formal portraits, which are tight, blend for me – although i know not for some.. that blending is an achievement for me.. mixing the looseness of her street work with the tightness of the subjects narrating.
the street work, which i prefer, is shot loose and edited tight far as i can see..
way it aughta-be, ya see.
james –
large is not a choice right now :ø)
since i dropped my hard drive my digi archive is lost till i afford retrieval.. no larger files than those already existing on my website http://ftp.. i could try 900dpi.. that´s it.
having to remodell it, try for some decent commissions.. fix the hard drive.. then change the whole site..
the logical progression is there.. just a few little steps away..
David; “not much difference in my mind between and e-book and a printed magazine…most printed magazines are read once and thrown away just as the internet is disposable..few magazines are kept..”
Ok; I get what you mean now. Yes; if you equate buying content over the net with magazines then I can see the similarity.
I’m probably biased because I love books, but I am selective in what I buy. I hardly ever buy a magazine, but I still buy books. Instead of buying a mag or two per month I use that money to buy a photographer’s book from Amazon once every 3 months or so.
Last book Larry Towell’s “Front Porch”; next one Sylvia Plachy’s “Self Portrait with Cows Going Home”…
To read Towell’s books on a monitor would be the sensory equivalent of my mother saying “Are you coming round for tea tonight; we’re having a roast” and then serving up a tube of astronaut’s “roast in a tube” :-)
David B; “…nobody is really using dial-up these days…” I wish! :-) I only live 8kms out of town and still can’t get dial-up here in NZ! I think they still use a couple of rats running on a treadmill to keep the dial-up going too! But as Imants says; we’re probably stuck in the 60’s here in NZ :-)
Cheers.
“yeah right…the dsl in grecolandia is slower than dial up…way slower..”
that’s to match the way smaller plumbing …
as an aside (no. 2) this made me laff
http://www.1854.eu/2009/11/watching_people_watching_porn.html
next up – on the toilet?
insatiable, we are.
Chancey, I think that is the same bkk hotel by the way … location looks right on the map … funny …
i just checked and 4% of the people who view my site use dial-up.. probably not potential clients though.
croatia was a beatch for t-internet..
horrible.. was quite refreshing. really.
another thought..
nue yawq is a pretty vertical place.. i wonder if that figures in ericas decision to shoot more dat way up? certainly feels claustrophobic for it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHOsLREkRI8
I Still Miss Someone
what is “loose” and what is “tight.”
————————————-
Personally, i have seen too much photography lately (I do not mean on BURN, or just on BURN) where people seem a bit too tight (read self-conscious) about shooting loose! ;-)
It is not enough to shoot loose, you have to be spontaneous as well. That poses the problem very well and can offer the solutions as well. Spontaneity puts loosenes where it belongs foremost: in your frame of mind, and the framing inside the picture must reflect that, not merely a way to shoot, loose or tight.
—
BTW, I am not sure we talked about the same things on the multi-media treatment. It seems DAH thinks in terms of getting one’s photography across, ie. presentation to the public. Like, David, I have both your books, have not seen any CD or DVD in them. No music is hear when I open the pages…. :-(
tell me I have not been ripped off! :-))))
I thought we talked first as multi-media as THE final project, the way the artists, the photographer wants his/her art to be experienced.
Wide screens and their associated applications are killing off the portrait style
david bowen,
oh yes. a helicopter is a lot of fun. especially the indoor type. and I am amazed, it took some research to find it, didn’t it? they are pretty cheap in Germany. If you like, I get one for you.
PANOS…
yes, you do post links all the time…you are the exception i think..to EVERYTHING!!
PATRICIA…
yes, the “loose” vs. “tight” discussion is a good one and if were not 3:30am my time, i would get into it …actually , i did a post about it on Road Trips when i was shooting in India…you might be able to search it…simply put, Panos shoots loose, you shoot loose…..both of you are “there” but without being self conscious about over composing or being overly mannered/boring…there is a very fine line between being structured and unstructured and being tight and loose….Gregory Crewdson is structured/tight…Alec Soth is structured/tight…Alex Webb is structured/tight but with loose layering…Trent Parke is loose loose…Antoine d’Agata is loose loose..Paolo Pellegrin loose sometimes , structured other times…..loose can be sloppy loose(just bad) or loose with a flair (good)….how is that for confusing you? ok, time for bed…to be continued….
cheers, david
David Bowen,
Sorry to come across as BOTH a pedant and a tech geek, but it drives me crazy when people who should know better (and maybe do know better, but are being sloppy with terms?) use totally incorrect terminology to talk about digital image sizing. “900 dpi” or any other “dpi” does not refer to the absolute or even relative size of any digital image… digital image size is measured in pixels (not pixels per inch, just plain pixels)… image FILE size is measured in kilobytes or megabytes and is a function of pixel size times degree of jpeg (or other file format) compression. “Dpi” is about printing an image, it’s how densely the pixel information translates into the tiny droplets of ink the printer lays down on a piece of paper. And it is particularly an irrelevant term when talking about sizing images to be shown on computer monitors, since computer screens normally have ‘native’ resolutions anywhere from 72 pixels per inch (that’s ‘ppi’, not ‘dpi’) up to 100 and something… If we’re talking about how large the image should be that appears on a computer monitor, the only number that makes any sense to talk about is ‘pixels’… how many pixels along the longest side? As a teacher of photography, you have a duty to get this straight and not confuse either your students or other readers of Burn.
HERVE…
you have confused me..what is your question exactly? multi media can be the final product…multi media can accompany a book…multi media can literally be inserted into a book….i have never literally inserted into a book, but have mm productions always to go with the work either online, on tv, or as part of the exhibition or all three….was that what you wanted to know?? yea, yea, late in BKK
cheers, david
DAVID B…SYDNEY…
i have no idea what either one of you are talking about…worse i suppose is that i do not even want to know what you are talking about…help, help…i do know however the difference between 35mm and 6×7…well, i gotta start somewhere…
BURNIANS,
if you ever receive this message:
THANKS HAPPY GIVING
I can’t see any essays…:((( due to technical difficulties
and during these hours I feel how much I LOVE YOU and you are part of my civilian life…
I can feel that something is tight …though …hmmm…but it ain’t me…
cause I am LOOSE.
P.S I have no idea what I am talking about …well
“Start every day off with a smile and get it over with.”
W. C. Fields
I miss you ALL …KATIE,BURN street fighter …give us a sign …
Sidney
Digital photographers will always have something useful to learn analogue photographers and vice versa. I don’t see the reason to get surprised that “we” know something “they” don’t know. And I think it’s a good thing that we all can learn bits and pieces from each other. I’ve felt an urge for a long time to get into a darkroom and start to learn what and how and why with all those chemcials.
BUT the thing about whether you say dpi or ppi seems less important to me. Essentially they mean the same thing. And it’s not hard to understand why people get confused when photoshop use “pixels/inch” in the “image size” tool box.
This link should be useful for all: http://www.rideau-info.com/photos/mythdpi.html
Jim,
How much does your newspaper cost? How long do people retain it for before they throw it in the trash? I agree with you with regards to the tangibility of books and CD’s they are wonderful and I regularly buy them too. But I almost never buy a newspaper anymore, nor does my son or his friends. Any news is read on the net. I personally feel that these downloadable podcasts/digital books/publications or whatever you call them could be a new way of selling your work as a photographer. How much would you pay for the opportunity of viewing a new DAH story on your TV at home, either as stills or an AV presentation ?
I think you and I become less important as consumers the older we get. The new generation of consumers are used to buying digital content online.
DAH
it’s really very dull.. as webwork is right now for me.
Sidney
*smiley*
wrong to laugh as i riled you – apologies.. my bad.. a simple mistake between nursery, meeting grandparents and other chuff..
to my students it would have been a ‘secret test’..
hohoho.
d
bjarte
i got misconfumufuddled between image size (longest side in pixels), image size (dots per inch)
just a stoopid mistake is all.. Sidney picked me up on it, and quite right too.
thomas – they have them in norway.. just i have no money.
ALL
this will be brief :)
first: HAPPY THANKSGIVING Y’ALL….tonight, dima and i are alone eating bbqchicken pizza and about to watch Scarface (marina is on a 10 day meditation retreat),…man’s thanksgiving ;)))….hope everyone is well and safe and surrounded by loved ones…
second: i just got an email from a concerned person, so i thought i’d better make it CLEAR to everyone so that there are no misunderstandings about what i wrote to Erica :))…i wrote it yesterday in a fever after scanning film for a book to be pub’d in japan and writing writing, so i havent had a chance to go back and re-read what i wrote…when i wrote “so proud of you…and now i can leave in peace :))))”, i DID NOT mean ‘leave’ but ‘live’ ….maybe a freudian slip ;)))….it should have been “so proud of you…and now i can live in peace :))))”…because i knew how long, hard and often filled with scruggle this project was for her….live live in peace, not leave…
lastly, quickly, about loose/tight….actually, i found this project to be the LOOSEST project ever that she has worked on and as i wrote, was certainly formed by the maturity and loosening of her vision and her ideas when she went to poland….her Vertical 35 mms are as loose as anything she has ever done and are visually, emotionally and conceptually….not only visually (those 35mm) but emotionally….those vertical 35mm balance the auster, tight lg format portraits…it is ‘tight’ conceptually (maintaining vertical pics to go better in synct with the square format) (something she and i have discussed since my big big asian project (and bones) contains 35 and med format)…..loose/tight is NOT ABOUT visual distinctions, but is about ideas, about how a photographer THINKS and conceptualizes both ‘how to photograph’ (how a picture should look or the relationship between camera/vision and subject/content) ….loose doesnt just mean ‘fuzzy, not classical framing, odd angles/clipping/light’ etc, but means the relationship a photographer has to making pictures and subjects….Panos is a loose loose photographer, all the way…me too, but tight photographers (thinking for example Roger Ballen, one of my FAVORITE photogs, or my hero Ralph Meatyard) are just as inspiring….i think of tight as this: they ‘know’ or ‘desire’ the picts to look/be a certain way: to make ‘predictions’…as sam abel wrote about: he thinks prior and waits and then gets the pic…while loose photographers allow the moment to dictate and tend to be less interested in what they ‘expect’ the pic to be than are juiced by what subverts their own ideas…well, more to write, but that’s it…..the world needs both kinds of picture takers and one thing that is ‘tight’ about me, is that i always think, hard, about my projects first…and then the actual shooting, editing, writing, i’m like: whatever the fuck it brings, it’s all good :))
ok, off to scarface…
hugs
b
“But I almost never buy a newspaper anymore, nor does my son or his friends.”
Small, local newspapers are in much better shape than larger newspapers so far. We are very local oriented, and a large percentage of the county population subscribes to our paper. The Texas Press Association says that is the case state wide with small, local newspapers. There are nine of those in our group. The larger newspapers in 100,000 plus population cities are having a very tough time, though, and a lot of those readers get there news from the websites rather than the dead tree product.
The problem is that nobody can figure out how to make enough money from newspaper web sites. Until/unless there is some major new dynamic created for making sufficient money online, the outlook is pretty dim for newspapers in this country. Which is part of the larger problem I described. Digital format information is just not considered to have much value.
If we talk about photography specifically, with the current technology, I would be unwilling to pay for a digital version of even a DAH book…but, I’ll buy the dead tree version in an instant!
And pinch hitting for Panos tonight, let me leave you with this deeply interesting website:
http://www.godhatesshrimp.com/
Jim..that was funny…
GOD SAVE THE QUEEN ( shrimp )
“God Save the Shrimp…she aint no human being”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBo0LLlKu5Q&feature=related
God save the queen
The fascist regime
They made you a moron
Potential H-bomb
God save the queen
She ain’t no human being
There is no future
In England’s dreaming
Don’t be told what you want
Don’t be told what you need
There’s no future, no future,
No future for you
God save the queen
We mean it man
We love our queen
God saves
God save the queen
‘Cause tourists are money
And our figurehead
Is not what she seems
Oh God save history
God save your mad parade
Oh Lord God have mercy
All crimes are paid
When there’s no future
How can there be sin
We’re the flowers in the dustbin
We’re the poison in your human machine
We’re the future, your future
God save the queen
We mean it man
We love our queen
God saves
God save the queen
We mean it man
And there is no future
In England’s dreaming
No future, no future,
No future for you
No future, no future,
No future for me
No future, no future,
No future for you
No future, no future
For you
JIM..
killing trees to publish pictures or burning coal to keep the net going….hmmmm, both the same i guess…at least trees are renewable…takes a few million years to turn those trees into coal for electricity to support the net…you and others might not buy pics online unless for perhaps a whole umbrella site that just included the best of the best for a few cents a month or something….check your electric bill right now and consider the amount of time you spend on Burn…more than a few cents per month i am sure…anyway, there is no doubt in my mind that this will all shake down into some form of payment plan for content providers and producers either through subscriptions or sponsors….it just has to..one way or another..but, i am totally with you on the “value” of hard copy….i want something i can touch…..if the power goes out , i can light a candle and read a book or view the Minamata essay…i hope we can get Burn into print before the grid comes unglued….as soon as i get home i have to split wood…get a fire going in the fireplace…burn a tree…well, i guess i will just have to plant one too….
cheers, david
3 weeks later…in grecolanandia…
i just got on a scale…to measure weight…
shock…result:
“pre-obese”…15 pounds ( full of mythos and feta and lamb ) over the limit…
bad news
( im going to shave the mustache to detract lose some weight..immediately )
good morning from the country of sunshine..
:(
40 years ago.. my lai
“A little over 40 years ago Ronald Haeberle walked into the offices of the Plain Dealer newspaper in Cleveland, Ohio, clutching a set of pictures that were to change history. He held in his hands photographs of people’s bodies lying in the dirt of Vietnam who had been killed by US soldiers.”
http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/photoblog/2009/11/my_lai_smoke_coming_from_the_muzzle.html
JIM, DAH:
I struggle to envision what form “paid for” online content will take to replace the quality and experience of looking at hard copy.
There are already forms of paid for online content, but while they have the information, they totally lack the experience of spending time with hard copy, be it a book or magazine.
It seems to me that everything is up in the air at the moment – the print industry struggling, and online content not really improving enough to replace the magazine or book in an acceptable way. I would guess that we need to go through another generation or two before people accept digital publishing as the main format and print as secondary.
Burn is a great example of how digital content can work successfully to a point, but as Jim has emphasized, it’s all free and that is the problem. A print edition of Burn (either a one off, or annual or bi-annual etc) would help to give a much needed permanence to the whole thing.
The day when you walk into a book store and the shelves are lined with SD cards or something similar containing digital books is a long way off hopefully.
I think the only model likely to work, Justin, is the cell phone, unlimited talk, concept. You buy a device (advanced several generations Kindle like device) and then pay a fixed rate – say $50 a month – for all the digital content you care to consume.
But that idea isn’t going to really catch on until most of us are dead, because you need consumers that have never really known anything but vaporous, disposable content.
Just a little diversion, http://www.slate.com/id/2236088/slideshow/2236648/
I still use my lupe, even if it’s to help me track down a splinter.
appropos of splitting logs, burning coal and paper and appropos of nothing…
something on the importance of planting trees….from tarkovsky’s final film, sacrifice
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4fysiepJ93M&feature=related
by the way, for my sister-in-law’s 40th birthday, my brother bought her a red dogwood and planted in fron of their home….
tree giving is (for me) about as important as it gets…on par with giving books and hugs
running
b
Patricia
As long as tight shooters are not UP-tight, and loose shooters not loosey-goosey.
Sometimes I do try to force myself to shoot looser, usually with not much success. I’m a pretty straight ahead kinda guy.
I think it’s kind of a right brain left brain thing, like playing music from the notes, or improvising. Your head is in a whole different place.
GORDON…
nobody said loose was necessarily better..and whatever you are doing is just fine and you are happy…anything wrong with being happy?…your music analogy is just perfect…
I’m still unclear on the tight/loose distinction. David Alan Harvey seems to be saying it’s the difference between carefully composed and not so carefully composed. Bob Black seems to be saying it’s the difference between well thought-out before shooting and not. David’s definition (if I understand it correctly) makes more sense to me, at least as a tool for criticism. With Bob’s, there’s no way one could look at a pic and know whether the photographer planned it out or not. Yea, Panos’s photos look loose to me, but I don’t know him personally and it’s conceivable he might meticulously plan all those loose looking shots, thus making them tight by Bob’s definition. Thankfully, with pixels so inexpensive these days, we can do it both ways and sort it out in the editing.
ALL…
i will be off line for the next 30 hours or so..flying from Thailand back home….i do want to get into the loose/tight discussion, but must go into travel mode….back soonest…carry on…
cheers, david
I’m still unclear on the tight/loose distinction
———————————————
Michael, usually, like most, if not all, creative artists, a photographer will/should not try to over-define how he/she gets into the action, the zone, as you guys say.
In the case of Erica’s essay, it sure does not matter. the street shots may well be loose (to the viewer, I am not sure she’d care to qualify them as anything. I wouldn’t, personally), and the portraits tight. yet, when you have said that, you have not said much about what she achieved, or what she is working towards to achieve, consciously or not.
David always makes good points, because he is no sectarian. He uses loose as an adjective, so to speak, an injunction, more than a style, a goal. He (IMO) will accept super tight, even crispated, if you or your photo make that point to him. That is, beyond the fact that the shot or your photographic stance is obstinately loose or tight.
I am also reminded he often sees emerging photographers missing stuff, or leaving a spot, at the most inopportune time.
Indeed, what is the point of shooting something loose or tight, if THE shot was behind you, across the street, or 1/10th of a second later.
Like most dualistic classifications, ‘tight’ vs. ‘loose’ can only be taken so far in understanding what is going on. Still, it’s a useful way to approach both photos and shooting styles, to a certain extent. Michael Webster, rather than being unclear about this, I think you understand perfectly… the fact is, ‘tight’ and ‘loose’ mean different things in different contexts, and to different people. I think we can pretty much broadly agree on what they mean in general, but in the real world things get complicated. It would be a big mistake to equate ‘tight’ with ‘rigid’ (though they do frequently go together, unfortunately), and equally misleading to equate ‘loose’ with ‘supple’. Tight can be supple, and loose can be very clumsy and insensitive. So forget value judgments (except for personal ones, of course!). And even the music analogy goes only so far. As a musician, I sometimes play set pieces tightly, and sometimes very loosely. And ditto for improvisation. Maybe the real litmus test for ‘tight’ and ‘loose’ is an internal one… you know it when you’re doing it.
You know the old saying about grammar? Words like “adverb,” “adjective,” or “past pluperfect?” You don’t need them to be a writer. You need them to talk about writing. I think it’s the same thing with photography. You don’t need to define “tight” or “loose” to be a photographer, but it’s handy to have those definitions if you want to talk about photography.
So here’s an example. I took these pics this morning so I remember my thought processes:
http://www.mwebphoto.com/Galleries/blueYork/slideshow.html
I planned to get up a 3 a.m. to take some shots for a current project. But I stayed out late and when the alarm went off I realized I’d be crazy to get out of bed at 3 a.m. What was I thinking? So I wake up feeling chipper at 6 a.m. and figure it’s still dark enough to get my shots, and that proves to be true, but I still don’t feel like it so I find myself riding around drinking strong coffee and blasting the stereo in the far reaches of Brooklyn. Then I realize I’m in a place where I’ve got an ongoing project, albeit something of a half-assed one. Then I think about a particular wall I’ve photographed and start looking for that wall. In the meantime, I’m on the lookout for similarly tagged walls. Then I find just such a wall. The light’s very interesting. I take a few photos.
So does that background have anything to do with whether the resulting photos are tight or loose? They’re not exactly planned but they’re not exactly spontaneous. And although they’re only pictures of a wall and don’t require any Cartier-Bresson like insight into the nature of the moment, I do have a particular lens that I use for just such subjects at just such distances, a camera that’s good in low light that I bought much for that purpose and I’m out at fucking dawn on the day after a holiday, so it’s not entirely a question of luck. Are those photos “loose” because I had no idea I was going to shoot that particular wall when I left home or “tight?” I don’t think so.
If I were defining the terms, I think I’d say none of that intellectual stuff should have anything to do with it. Using those photos as examples, I can’t imagine any paradigm in which they could be classified as “loose.” So I think I’d define tight the old-fashioned way. The composition is “tight” if the framing excludes extraneous elements. Telephoto lenses typically capture “tight” photos. Wide angle would typically be more associated with “loose.” Though obviously that’s only in general since my wall photos were taken with a wide angle lens and if they’re not “tight” I don’t know what is. I’d think “loose” would refer to a composition in which the actual subject is more a small part of a larger scene.
Justin, Jim,
the model of paid downloads works already for music, movies and other video-type of stuff.
Look at iTunes, and there are other services where you can download legal content after you paid for it.
I would not go for flatrates, as they kill the market before it even started.
At the moment you can download the “magnum in motion” videos as podcasts for free – I am sure, that people would buy for the same or slightly longer show or if there is additional content.
If the single item is cheap, you get the masses.
I do not perceive either medium as exclusive. They are complementary.
I have loads of paid downloads on my iPod, and my Harddrive. I look now and again into them, as I am looking into books. They are media on their own rights.
Yesterday I skyped with a photographer friend asking who could support him creating slideshows of his stills, because his clients asking for it. Since I did such slideshows several times from my own work, I will support him for the time being.
There is already a market. It is emerging.
If, however, you do not value the electronic media, how could your potential customers?
David
“nobody said loose was necessarily better..”
Yes, although it is probably a useful excersise to try and push one’s self into un-familiar territory.
Sidney, good comment…I totally agree.
Pushing your musical analogy back to the photo realm, within a rigid frame-work, like formal portraits, we still hope to capture spontaneous expressions and gestures. Wether shooting formal portraits or doing street photography, I think we try to put ourselves in the frame of mind where we are able to recognize and capture the gift moments when they present themselves.
Thankfully, with pixels so inexpensive these days, we can do it both ways and sort it out in the editing………..here loose/preconceived no longer matters it’s the edit
D.A.H. – EMcD, when you are planning a book, do you produce a book dummy (maquette)? I have read that both Alex Webb and Alec Soth use them and wondered what your opinions on the process of building one are. They sound like a really good way of focusing one’s mind on the final selection and layout.
Best,
Mike.
Gordon L,
Been meaning to ask you, how have you fared in the recent heavy weather? Today we are getting a welcome respite, and the sun is actually shining in my window at this moment, but we have had over a month of continuous storms, high winds, rain, and darkness, and your area in particular was hard-hit in the last week. Keeping your feet dry and your roof intact up there in Parksville?
Cheers,
Imants
November 27, 2009 at 2:53 pm
Thankfully, with pixels so inexpensive these days, we can do it both ways and sort it out in the editing………..here loose/preconceived no longer matters it’s the edit
________________________________
i think it´s been the case before digital as well.. fat chunks of film are always available on commission, and digital or film there is only so much my eye can take before it aches.
editing, often neglected, is absolutely as important as the technique for photographing.. without that skill we´re all just snap happy flickr fodder.. certainly we could all appear as utterly different photographers if we chose to show different work.
to decide how you´re going to shoot sounds alien to me.. you snap the way you do.. we have to weave the techniques which are demanded of ourselves instinctively.. through our subject and our life experience..
no one is better than another.. no one has the monopoly on ´right´.. or ´árt´.. and with the craft as young as it is, the truth is that none of us know what will be remembered as photography grows.
stretching the music analogy even further – the path which a tune takes when you start creating dictates the notes which follow.. organic and instinctive according to mood, nature and all that jazz.. i think it´s the same with photography.. weave what the situation – your situation – demands.. and if we´re lucky we´ll reach the musicians high of playing the sounds between the notes.. the harmonics.
no judgments.. no need for fragile pedestals or austere towers.. just enjoyment and following what the photography wants us to do.. and what we have to do.
thinking too much – and deciding too much – will become a prohibitive force in creating, as we each need to create in our own way.. to me, stretching ones boundaries and comfort zone is much more about inward traveling than it is about technique or ´knowledge´.. style or format.
practice and passion will develop all of our work with a little introversion and geek behavior.. what ever the results will be, will be.
..
a loose photographer is no more an ´artist´ than a tighter one..
just as a preference for colour is no less artistic than black and white.
just following what our photography demands of us.. and let others postulate and dissect their definitions of “art” before projecting onto us.
anyway.
d.
The tight/loose dichotomy is a standard discussion point in every medium. A popular term in literary criticism is cooked vs. raw:
http://www.poets.org/viewmedia.php/prmMID/5903
Jim, Jim, Jim… again you’re wrong.
Up until the latest recession (the last year), newspapers of all sizes were doing quite well. Circulation was hardly down at all, and most of the big papers were still in the black. Advertisers started pulling ads for online advertising way before people went in droves to the net for news. It was the economy forcing advertisers to take the cheap option (online), it wasn’t that that’s where people started going first. The internet still isn’t the way most people get there news…
goose as loose
i´m a goose photographer.
Jared, that is simply not true.
Thomas, do you really believe there is an analog between music/movies and photographer’s works? Relatively few people have ever bought photography books, for example, as is clear from the relative incomes of rock stars and photographers. :)
My guess is that if Magnum could actually sell enhanced versions of their In Motion essays directly to consumers, they would be doing so. I doubt they would get many takers, though.
Am typing on the phone – but wanted to say re tight / loose, I do t think about it much. My comment about ‘loose enough for you’ to Preston was just a personal joke – I personally think there is a looseness in the 35mm, but I think of looseness for me more as an approach or working method – the images themselves can be more formal.
Mike R – I made a blurb book dummy hLf way through and it was extremely helpful. I could immediately see what I wanted to cut, and I felt where I needed to go. And it allowed for a clear way to communicate what I was up to when I approached the people I did for input.
Jim, it is true. Most big papers are STILL in the black, they’re just not reaping the HUGE profits they used to when ad dollars were rolling in like crazy…
Maybe just read a bit?
http://newsosaur.blogspot.com/2008/10/75b-sales-plunge-forecast-for.html
http://www.niemanlab.org/2009/09/has-newspaper-advertising-reached-rock-bottom-probably-not/
http://www.dmgtreports.com/2008/businessreview/anmediaassociatednewspapers/
http://changingnewsroom.wordpress.com/2008/06/11/more-on-newspaper-profits/
Hi Sidney
Yes, we remained high and dry, thought there was some flooding in low laying areas near the river that runs through town. Sure nice to see the sun the past two days, though it means frost at night.
David b
I can’t really agree with you about “we all snap the way we do”. It’s not really that organic, at least not all the time. We make a huge number of choices when we photograph, deliberately and carefully, or haphazardly.
I’ve just recently started shooting digital, and the process of shooting is so different for me. Never mind the fumbling through menus and the distraction of being able to see what I just shot, I find myself shooting with less deliberation. I mean, in setting up a shot, thinking about what I want and how to get it, it’s the same. But once I start pressing the shutter, I end up squeezing off so many frames. I don’t know yet what to make of it. When I shoot film, I purposefully shoot each shot. But it’s not that way when I shoot digital. Maybe I’m missing the film advance lever…
Anyway, the discussion of tight versus loose made me think of the difference I’m experiencing with film versus digital. I wouldn’t say film is tight and digital is loose for me. More like film can be either tight or loose, and digital is… easy? Not that I’m unhappy with my results, but I don’t enjoy the taking of a picture as much.
Digital isn’t “easy.” If you suck as a photographer with a film camera, you will suck just as badly with a digital camera.
hookstrapped said,
“Not that I’m unhappy with my results, but I don’t enjoy the taking of a picture as much.”
Which begs the questions then, “Why shoot digital?’
If you’ve been ‘forced’ into shooting digital for economic or timeframe reasons why can’t you
simply apply your film shooting habits and techniques to the digital medium.
That was a good question, mtomalty. It made me realize that since I got my digital camera I’ve used it to shoot the things I care less about, since I was learning the camera. And that’s why I got the camera in the first place, to shoot things I care less about — where economic and time constraints outweighed my ambition for the results. I got an Olympus E-P1 mainly so I can use my M-mount lenses, so it’s with manual focus and I avoid reviewing what I just shot. I’m trying to replicate my film shooting process, but it still boils down to the fact that if it’s something I care about I’m going to shoot film because I know how to get what I want with film.
So, I guess it’s a learning process that I feel I’m still only a little way along — to be comfortable and confident is using digital. But then there’s the whole crop factor / depth of field thing which limits how useful my digital set-up is and makes me wonder if I can really get too serious with this set-up…
Jared, I have to agree with Jim about newspapers. They have been on the decline for some time.
If I had tried to sell my small newspaper three years ago instead of four, I’d likely be sucking air. Circulation has been on the decline since the 1970s. Consolidation began not long after. The corporate profit model of short term stock profits over long term stability soon followed, or coincided with, consolidation. Cable news and the internet came along. Craig’s List was a huge hit to newspaper classifieds (a bigger source of newspaper revenue than you would expect). Google aggregated free content provided by newspapers, sold ads that were much cheaper, and gained billions, and billions, and billions in revenue while the revenue stream for the actual content provider shrank. If Associated Press, which is a cooperative of media organizations, had developed an exclusive Google-style news aggregator model, as some suggested, then newspapers would be in much better shape now. The few large corporations that own(ed) the majority of U.S. publications further stifled the ability for publications to innovate in an industry that was already conservative to the extreme in that regard. Yada, yada, yada.
I do believe the small town publications will survive for some time, especially weeklies, or at least until the requirement for newspaper legal publications is pulled (that’s sort of a joke but it will be the (or “a”) next nail in the coffin). The large corp. that purchased my small paper was specifically targeting small papers for acquisitions seeing them as a stabilizing revenue stream.
While everyone talks about getting their news from the internet, very, very little news is produced first and foremost FOR the internet. People talk about the internet, though, as if it is an entity, rather than the complex multi-celled paradox that it is … it is nothing really, and everything at the same time. With the dramatic decrease in news gathering capability and infrastructure by the traditional media, where in the world will the news of the future come from? Citizen journalism has been shown to be the oxymoron it is. Google has little interest in acquiring news gathering infrastructure, and why would they if it is provided for free (although Murdoch is trying to ban googlebots from his sites), and the economic model of traditional advertising-based media has a broken back.
I suppose a new model will emerge out of someone’s garage again but … it does seem like the end for traditional media because the only real money to be made is a few cents at a time in the aggregation for the world market.
Maybe Jim would disagree and be less cynical about the future …
to shoot things I care less about ……..why bother……. that don’t care attitude must already be ingrained in your photographic work be it film. or digital
Oh and by the way, 2008 was the first year that more people said they received national and international news from the internet than from printed newspapers, (Pew Research Center poll), although that does not address the root source of the news which has always irritated me to no end concerning Pew’s annual survey.
This loose/tight, complete/incomplete,open/closed thing about photographs is still a bit of a mystery to me. I mean, it’s easy to see that Panos shoots “loose.” His images are so spontaneous, so of-the-moment, so instinctive. Kind of like free associating with a camera. Panos is just LIVING and as part of that “beingness,” he take pics. LOTS of pics. I doubt if Panos is thinking too much while he’s shooting. Man, he is just SHOOTING. Of course he’s using his educated, experienced, artistic eye when he composes a frame. But I think that’s more intuitive than intentional.
Whereas Erica’s work has such a sense of underlying intentionality about it. You just know she comes to each shot with the overarching purpose of the entire project in mind. And yet many of her street images are wonderfully HCB-like in their capturing the “decisive moment.” I wouldn’t call her work “tight,” merely intentional, or to put it a little differently, well considered.
As for myself, DAH says I’m loose like Panos. Well, yes and no. Maybe yes in my self portrait project but not so much in my current Blue Mirror project. With the mirror project I have a lot on my mind when I take every shot. First of all I need to instruct my subjects — most of them strangers I approach on the street or wherever — on how to hold the mirror so I can get what I want. Often that means posing them in certain positions so I can see their face in the mirror. Then I’m always conscious of the environment, the background, because I see these as environmental portraits. But most of all I need to focus my camera in exactly the right place, and that is on their face as it is reflected in the mirror. With my less-than-able hands, that is not as easy as it sounds.
Well, you get the picture (pun intended). There’s nothing spontaneous about my Blue Mirror project. It is all about intentionality. If I can capture an unexpected expression on my subjects’ faces, I’m delighted. But that is rare. So I really wouldn’t characterize these photos as loose.
Hope this discussion continues. I really want to hear a lot of different views on the subject. I would love to understand it better.
Patricia
Pleeze chill’eren, loose or tight has more to do with where you are with your work. When you know what you are after it will always be tight. When you still are not sure and are working it out, it’ll will always be loose. When you run out of time and you have to produce, you will tighten it up. Not that it will satisfy, but it will do. I’d really rather be tight all of the time.
Phew, does anyone understand this?
gordon..
when i started out taking phots i made a lot of choices consciously..
i really don’t anymore.. once in the mood it’s not so much making conscious choices as reacting subliminally.. i don’t know.. i know it when i feel it and when i am trying to choose i am trying too hard..
i wonder if in part it comes down to the length of the project?
certainly on shorter ones of a year or so i have felt more pressure to look and find rather than wait and see.. use technique rather than relax and shoot.
the long projects tend to be looser as time is plentyfull and time is a great part of it..
the exploration that is.
practice and time.
that’s for me in any case.. only one or two big choices ever bunch of years, and then
i’m certain that ericas work could display a great deal more looseness if she chose to show that work – and that’s where i think the edit is important.. by balancing the looseness and introducing some tight shots it makes the piece feel in some way more sincere.. less frivolous.. asking us to consider on a different level. after all, most of us must end up with a wide range of tight and loose shots.. a whole bunch.. it’s in what we choose to show where our real selves can be seen.. our intention, motivation and inspiration.
pomara – with edits, definitely..
Young Tom,
The newspapers have been in decline since at least the 1970s, I’m not arguing that. What I am saying is despite this decline, they still make money, even today and the internet has been quite a while now.
Saying the internet “did it” is a cop-out for generally boring product (text and photos).
(I posted some links earlier, must be in moderation)
Oh, and TV is still the main source as of 2008, way out in front of the internet and newspapers.
And I believe PEW’s research was strictly American, but I could be wrong.
David b – I can tell you I spent days just playing and experimenting, but for the most part those did not meet my expectations of a finished image. What they may have done is help clarify what I wS after. Maybe what PAtricia is saying about intention is largely on target.
Jared, yes Pew’s research is strictly U.S., and you are right, TV has been ahead for a long time now.
Hmmm, surely yes some U.S. newspapers are still profitable, although not Rocky Mountain, Seattle PI, etc., which are no longer around in print, but every major newspaper I can think of has made huge cuts, many before the latest economic downturn, and the profit margin, if it is still there, has likely slipped into the margins comparable to the traditional grocer … is the gray lady profitable?
But, if I understand your point correctly, I certainly agree that citing “the internet” as the sole cause of the demise of newspapers is of course overly simplistic. The great innovations tend to come out of the garage, not the boardroom, and with the modern exponential pace of change the inability to innovate invariably leads to a dead end much sooner than later. Even Google will likely fall when someone develops the newest chaos algorithm, or whatever it takes to get a decent search return that doesn’t include 30,400,000 results (“burn magazine”) in .09 seconds.
I wonder what J schools are telling their students? How far behind is academia?
Schools reflect society so that can’t be too hard to figure out …….. most schools make a pretty good fist of things despite being under resourced information technology wise
I wonder what J schools are telling their students?
At this point, from what I can tell, nothing different than 5 years ago, with the addition of “If you can figure out how to make money from the internet + journalism in the future, you’ll be rich,” kind of thing. You have to imagine that some of these teachers have been driven to teaching by these exact conditions and their constantly watching their friends fired, so there is a huge element of fear creeping into journalism classrooms…
But really, Tom. How much does a newspaper need profit? We’ve been way over the point where profit directly influences content (in a biasing way) for a long time now. Maybe less profit is a good thing for whatever comes out of the ashes, no?
What exactly is wrong with the NPR or BBC models, anyway? — besides the cry of socialism and Red China, etc, etc.
There are still plenty who take up J school, though most learn to adapt and take up other career options
I like Patricia’s view of tight and loose very much.
In fact, it mainly explained it to me. :)
Thanks Patricia!
“In order to please others, we LOOSE our hold on our life’s purpose.”
Epictetus (Greek philosopher AD 55-c.135)
therefore be yourself !!! and keep the fire BURNing …
submit WHATNOTTOLOVE !!!
P.S BURNIANS focus …we are sending good energy to MR.HARVEY and to all the travelers ….
I LOVE U ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
Patricia
That’s a great blue mirror project, had me smiling and transfixed.
13 years ago..
time flies.
Patricia, the loose/tight, raw/cooked, Rolling Stones/Beatles debate in art is more about sensibility than working methods. One can be very deliberate about creating loose photos, just as one can be very casual about shooting tight. But in the end, it’s pretty subjective, categorizing one photographer as looser or tighter than another. DAH looser than McCurry? Certainly. Alex Webb is very tight, but he shoots spontaneous, casual situations. Miguel Rio Branco is very loose and Mary Ellen Mark is very tight, and they both photograph prostitutes, wrestlers, and performers — Branco just favors blurrier, less intentional photos. HCB is tight, but his images are playful. Bruce Gilden takes loose to a whole new level, but his working methods are the point of many of his photos. Robert Frank seems pretty loose, but is that because most of his pictures are out of focus, or because a certain casualness was pretty revolutionary at the time he shot “The Americans” and Jack Kerouac endorsed the book? Part of the loose/tight thing is also how the photographer wishes to be seen.
Nothing but neutral grey
The raindrops blast on my window and the sky is nothing but neutral grey. Only for a short while I left my den this morning to venture out and get myself some grub. I opted for bread and so I steered my trusty swedish automobile towards my much loved bakery. As usual I asked for their tasty „spelt bread“ (my dictionary told me so ???). While the young lady was so kind as to cut the bread for me, I observed another shopgirl how she helped another customer from the shop window. They had installed a drive-in bakery and apparently there are people who use this kind of convenience. By the way the bakery is surrounded by numerous parking lots, but the gentlemen prefered to stay in his vehicle while he gave out very specific requests for his choice of bread and rolls. I was wondering if they had a menu placed in front of his car window?
Back home I read an email from my friend Helmut. He informed me about a recently opened drive-in bankomat. Certainly a true novelty in Germany! Maybe nothing new in the rest of the world, but for us this is a little sensation.
So now you can cash your money while you stay inside your car. Is this the end of wearing shoes? Will the polar bears die because we are too lazy to walk into a bank or a bakery?
The growing thirst for convenience dawned on me the other week while I stayed with a friend of mine in Berlin. He got a minimum of 3 parcels delivered to him every morning: some digestive pills from a web based pharmacy, the most recent CD from Robby Williams, new boxing gloves, a rented video to watch plus the tickets of a coming rock concert next summer. Every morning it was like Christmas. A dream come true?
Some month ago the newspaper I work for ordered a new rotary machine. A million Euro investment. For the coming 15 years even more trees have to go down. Mind you, this is not for creating heat! With this comittment the hope is connected that people will continue to pay for pieces of paper with letters and colourful images printed on them and the hope is still there, that the readers will keep on turning the pages, which is an extra effort as well. Is this the future until I will retire?
Fancy linving today means that you press some buttons and set a display to the desired temperature of the room and that is it: done. Boring!
During my adventureous times as a young lad in bonnie Scotland when life was easy and my camera of choice a handy Yashica T4, well, that was the time when I used to cut the wood all by myself. Let me reminiscent: my usual hang out in the Scottish Highlands is called Staoineag. Convenience at it’s best in the middle of nowhere: the water comes from a stream, which runs right beside the bothy and the water tastes very well with malt Whisky and the stream makes a great swimming pool during warm summer days. The outhouse is as you can expect outside. The furniture is basic – a few stones make a chair. The wooden floor is the mattress. Candles have to be brought in as well as food. If you run short on Whisky, the next hamlet is a days walk away on paths that sheep use most of the time. You might think this is a place without entertainment? Quite the contrary: the very own ghost of the bothy is included. Actually it is a female ghost. Ladies, please be extra careful! Better look by the fire place where you can find a little book from Robert Burns: My love is like a red, red rose…
And yes, the idea of planting trees is long gone in that part of the world. Even the Romans knew that birds and squirrrels do it for free! Unfortunately they forgot about the sheep…
Reimar
Reimar,
The ‘drive-in convenience’ you are describing as a novelty is nothing more than Germany catching up with the North American suburban lifestyle that has been deeply entrenched here for at least two generations, if not longer. Many Americans live mostly in their cars and live for their cars, and outside of a few urban enclaves like Manhattan, Beacon Hill, or North Beach (regarded as hopelessly effete, prissy, snobbish, left-wing, and not ‘really American’ by most other people) our citizens have forgotten how to walk, and never did understand that urban life (sans private vehicle) could be pleasant, stimulating, relatively safe, even delightful (as well as convenient)… as it is in Western Europe, Japan, South Korea, and some other places.
Because so much of American (and Canadian) life, not just the lifestyle, but also the housing patterns, the landscape, the patterns of work, production, and consumption… are all ‘hardwired’ to access based on private automobiles… and in many cases, only via private automobiles… it means that the whole society and economy are captives to the car. It’s not easy to change, because it means rebuilding both the hardware and software of the entire country. I speak as someone who has not owned an automobile for ten years, and has not flown on an airplane for the same time period.
But the lure of the car, even in places where you would think nobody needs one, is apparently overwhelming. In Japan, which has perhaps the world’s best public transportation system, I was always amazed and discouraged by the fact that young people all dreamed of having their own cars, made great sacrifices to get them, and lavished exorbitant care and money on them. This in a country where there is no place to park, not even many places to pull off on the side of the road, where you can get anywhere you want to go via train, bus, ferry, or taxi, and where the traffic jams are horrendous. And car upkeep and insurance costs are astronomical. But because people wanted cars, and wanted to ‘do their thing’ in cars, they began rebuilding the Japanese landscape to accommodate them… big box stores and chain restaurants out in the suburbs, drive-ins, a recreation of an American lifestyle on a slightly reduced scale.
Aside from the fact that this is all incredibly wasteful and destructive in terms of fossil-fuel energy and land use, I submit that it’s also totally counter-productive in terms of building a civilization that encourages a rich fabric of humane existence. Life based around cars substitutes road rage for civilized human encounter. Once the car meant freedom and mobility… today it has a very different meaning.
Creating a planetary civilization that is energy-efficient and environmentally in balance but also rich in cultural life, encounter, freedom, and relative equality is clearly the major collective task for humanity in this century. But it’s not going to happen as long as people spend most of their time idling their engines in traffic jams or cruising around the block searching for a parking place.
That’s what I call “critical thinking” !!!
Tight ideas produced by loose brains …
Thank you BURNIANS
P.S I’ll be back …when I finish reading…
I shoot me out
Reimar and Sidney, that was excellent, truly, and I could not agree more but please, don’t take my pickup truck. I am too much the hermit in the rainforest here already.
Yea, I never completely understood Americans’ infatuation with cars. The road though, that’s a different story, especially when you’re young and heading west on one, chasing the sun all the way to the Pacific, a hundred miles an hour, leaving the shithole you came from in the rearview. Books have been written. Songs have been sung. Maybe it’s an American thing. Tramps like us, you know. I can’t think of similar art coming from elsewhere.
And I’m not so sure it’s entirely accurate that cars are not social vehicles, at least not outside the big cities. In a society dominated by television and video games, cars are about the only places where most Americans get any kind of social interaction in close proximity to others at all.
Yea, it’s too bad it’s all so wasteful and is destroying so much of the world, but as long as people don’t pay the real cost of such exorbitance, not a lot is going to change.
Preston has again neatly parsed up the distinction, particularly since the entire loose/tight distinction (conundrum? ;)) ) is really not about what photographs look like but about the photographers relationship and ideas about what/why/how she photographs, as well as how they want their work and their practice to be perceived. To some degree it’s a bit of a charade actually, in terms of qualifying their or others work and I am not entirely sure it has value, at least as applied to other photographers. Is Bruce really loose, though when watching him work one thinks that and yet he is in control, remarkably so, in terms of both the outcome and those he wishes to target and see along the streets of NYC, Tokyo or the beaches of Coney Island and Haiti or the forlorn startled homes in Detroit and Fort Myers that have been abandoned or foreclosed? Is street photography looser than studio/portrait photography? Is Avedon tight, i wonder if what makes his entire body of work so formidable and beautiful, though his ‘style’ and technique have been imitated and replicated ad nauseum, the extraordinary insight and beauty of his work has not be replicated. Is this from control or because he was remarkably loose and available to the moment of when and how to photograph a person….fleet of foot and eye. Too many think of this distinction as a visual one. Loose = fast, blurry/broken, natural framing, pics that seem spontaneous rather than constructed, etc, while tight seems to = the opposite. Does this even matter on ioda?
I think it is impossible for any of us to speak about whether or not another photographer’s body of work (or picture or essay or project) is loose or tight and does it even really matter? All we can do is speak about our own practice and our ideas and their realtionship to how we photograph, how we compose, how we edit work (accept or reject images). Even David, as a teacher and extraordinary photographer, is unable to make this distinction but with a guess and instinct. What lends authority to David’s ideas about Alex or Paolo or Trent is that he knows them personally and has spoken with them and, at least to me, from that kind of relationship and conversation and knowing, can the guesswork begin. John vink shoots 100 frames a day (it seems), each and everyday (nearly) and it might take me 2 months to shoot 100 frames of film: who is looser? ;)….and does it matter at all.
David’s use of the work (and others, including those of us who teach) has to do with a pedagogic tool, a way to stir up a conversation with another photographer to get them to reflect about their work, to re-see or reimagine what it is they are doing. This often comes out in looking at a sequence of images, editing pictures/essays/projects, or as a way to unlock what might be stuck in the head and body and eye of the photogrpaher when working. We’ve all been stuck (who aint? ;) ), and that loose/tight distinction is one mechanism that might help get a photographer to think, reflect about what it is she is doing, seeing, wishing to accomplish. I’ve used the same kind of distinction when speaking with my wife or close friends who are photographers when looking at work to see or figure out what works and what does not…and EVEN this is incredibly personalized. One’s looseness might be another’s loosey-goosey and one’s tightness might be another’s uptightness ;)))))….think of Pollack and Rothko: which is the looser painter….are you certain?…Pollacks work when looked at carefully is incredibly controlled, restricted and refined and when watches videos of him painting (at least the drip pics), it’s like watching the beautiful and melodic yet incredibly precise movements of a ballerina: it’s all body and gesture and movement. Rothko on the other hand sat in front of his pics for hours looking, staring, changing his mind, looking into canisters of paint, sometimes again and again, sucking up and away the color scheme that didn’t work from his canvas using towells and paper and blankets and starting again, rarely (but for the seagram thing and the rothko chapel) deliberately understanding which color relationship would go next.
Photojournalism vs. Conceptual Art, which is more loose…are yu sure?…..frank vs. shore?…david works loose, loose, but his editing is as tight as one can imagine….having made 5 different edits of bones, as an example, they all accomplish different things, some liked by others, some hated…i dont even know if there is any edit that i am a fan of and i am the photographer ;)))…the Asian project, even crazier….who knows…
I’ve spent time with David twice in real life, spoken on the phone a ton of times, exchanged 100’s of emails and of course conversations here and i dont think we’ve ever really sad down and talked about, specifically, our relationship to our work and what defines that as loose/tight….but we have talked about what we wanted to accomplish with our work, how we see other work, the successes and failures, etc…i think the discussion is a good one if it allows photographers to examine the ‘why’ and the ‘how’ (remember that chat Herve? ;)))))) ) of what it is they do…which, incidentally, may not have answers either….
I think in the end, all that matters, whatever the distinction, is that a photographer grows and continually thinks and works and changes and distills what and why and how it is they’re a photographer, otherwise it’s gets tedious and we dry up. At some level, all this all works at both an intellectual level and an instinctual one…and then there’s that small tom-tom beat of joy: the joy of just making pictures….of making pictures and looking at pictures, and whether or not we are loose or tight, hopefully that swelling drive is ultimately the one which guides each of us on our own missions….each of us our own place in the world and each of us toward whatever way it is that makes sense, to learn to feel what it is we need to simply be at peace with what it is we do…..and that’s, beyond loose and tight, the best distinction in the world for me…
cheers
b
Panos is just LIVING and as part of that “beingness,” he take pics. LOTS of pics
——————————-
Stream of conscious/beingness? I wonder if then, this should lead to be conveyed by showing all those pics then (not all, but damn near all). For example, Is Panos interested in how he shoots more than the photos produced?
What if he shoots “loose”, but edit tight? ARGHHHH?!?! ;-)
—–
“Thinking”….. So many times, little thinking is going on when I/we press the shutter. Even anticipating a shot. And I suppose that is the reason why the magic in taking a picture is ever-renewed . That tiny moment when all is left to have something that did not exist, that was not, exists and be.
i think the discussion is a good one if it allows photographers to examine the ‘why’ and the ‘how’ (remember that chat Herve? ;))))))
————————————–
yep. that it is the ‘what’ that is always the most important in being an artist. What are you doing? what is your purpose? (Wether you wish to answer or not).
Je ne cherche pas (why? how?), je trouve (what)…
Stream of conscious/beingness? I wonder if then, this should lead to be conveyed by showing all those pics then (not all, but damn near all
_____________
herve – thats is the question for all of us i think..
of the tens of thousands of photos from electronic music i have snaped, i am trying to cut down to 150 or so. yet i want to show 500.. sometimes.. and other times it’s looking bland to show so many.
a tight edit of loose work is going to show people more of what i want them to see, a presentation of many looser images will show more about how i got the 150 and where my finger was on the shutter button..
i cannot speak for panos or anyone else, but for me a tight edit, taken from many thousands, will be more interesting than a whole bunch slung together..
but then there are exceptions of course.. so maybe the long edit? blah blah.. many more choices come to mind now i am editing tan eve did while i a shooting the proect..
an edit of 500 photos would be 0.75 photos, or there about, per event i documented.. the need for a tight edit when you shoot a great volume is not just for artistic or conceptual reasons – it’s often the most pragmatic solution. telling the difference between sloppy and loose is KEY in our own work.. yet i also agree with bobus..
“To some degree it’s a bit of a charade actually, in terms of qualifying their or others work and I am not entirely sure it has value, at least as applied to other photographers.”
it’s not for us to disect each other.. if anything we’re just about encouragement.
let the art buying public project the idea ‘artist’ on to us if they choose.. lets just pleae take pictures in volume.. think in bodies of work rather than stories. a see where we are at the end of it.
as an aside.. i have not read back al replies as yet.. nor all of bobs post.. will do.. just on the conyac now. film starting.. relatives over.. i cooked a huge meal.. we’re sleepy.. drining.. thinking..
chairs
d
Stream of conscious/beingness? I wonder if then, this should lead to be conveyed by showing all those pics then (not all, but damn near all
_____________
herve – thats is the question for all of us i think..
of the tens of thousands of photos from electronic music i have snaped, i am trying to cut down to 150 or so. yet i want to show 500.. sometimes.. and other times it’s looking bland to show so many.
a tight edit of loose work is going to show people more of what i want them to see, a presentation of many looser images will show more about how i got the 150 and where my finger was on the shutter button..
i cannot speak for panos or anyone else, but for me a tight edit, taken from many thousands, will be more interesting than a whole bunch slung together..
but then there are exceptions of course.. so maybe the long edit? blah blah.. many more choices come to mind now i am editing tan eve did while i a shooting the proect..
an edit of 500 photos would be 0.75 photos, or there about, per event i documented.. the need for a tight edit when you shoot a great volume is not just for artistic or conceptual reasons – it’s often the most pragmatic solution. telling the difference between sloppy and loose is KEY in our own work.. yet i also agree with bobus..
“To some degree it’s a bit of a charade actually, in terms of qualifying their or others work and I am not entirely sure it has value, at least as applied to other photographers.”
it’s not for us to disect each other.. if anything we’re just about encouragement.
let the art buying public project the idea ‘artist’ on to us if they choose.. lets just pleae take pictures in volume.. think in bodies of work rather than stories. a see where we are at the end of it.
as an aside.. i have not read back al replies as yet.. nor all of bobs post.. will do.. just on the conyac now. film starting.. relatives over.. i cooked a huge meal.. we’re sleepy.. drining.. thinking..
chairs
d
“Stream of conscious/beingness? I wonder if then, this should lead to be conveyed by showing all those pics then (not all, but damn near all”
if h.s. thompson brain farted everything it would be the dullest read.. by working his ‘random’ within boundries he achieved much more..
even though in the end he became a washed up clich, and a cartoon paody of himself.
arguably
but..
seeking fame and finding it will do that do a brain
It’s a complex thing, the loose/tight thing. Something I’ve never resolved about my own photography. I shoot really loose most of the time, because I like to shoot in situations where there are a lot of people and a lot of activity going on. People and events move by in an uninterrupted stream, which I generally don’t interrupt when I shoot. But, when I look at the resulting photos they are for the most part very tight… tightly framed, individuals or small groups isolated from the crowd, almost formally composed. There is no effort to achieve that effect. Whatever results in this is internalized and not a conscious decision at the time I press the shutter. I suspect this is the same with many photographers.
“pedagogic” – first time i have read that word outside of norway.
beate is a pedegog leader.. job title :o)
nice one.
d
“There is no effort to achieve that effect. Whatever results in this is internalized and not a conscious decision at the time I press the shutter. I suspect this is the same with many photographers.”
’tis for me jim..
:o)
Sidney,
yes, I guess we are way behind indeed! Not having a car is the most consequent action. Like hermit Tom I can hardly seperate from my vehicle… but we have to save the polar bears!
Bob,
well said and well expressed! Yes, it is intellect and instinct coming together!
And as Herve said
“so many times, little thinking is going on when I/we press the shutter. Even anticipating a shot. And I suppose that is the reason why the magic in taking a picture is ever-renewed . That tiny moment when all is left to have something that did not exist, that was not, exists and be.”
I coudn’t agree more!
Jim’s description of his loose shooting sounds familiar to my approach.
So I guess we all have our own definition about tight or loose photography. Good discussion!
On the bottom line I feel I got more loose over the last years. Burn certainly had an influence on my attitude. Too many times I tried to wear a tight corset. It just didn’t fit me. For me loose is not only connected to the final image, but also to the way I feel, the way I handle a situation, my personality perhaps. Beiing tight means to me wanting a lot, demanding the image to be exactly how I want it, to be greedy for a great image. But as most humans my desire is not always successful. So I feel the really good images come in a rather loose, almost in an unexpected, easy way. It is a gift and we are sometimes open and able to catch it by pressing a button…
It is still raining…
Reimar
………and I don’t care I just do stuff and post stuff http://www.iamparanoid.net/
“………and I don’t care I just do stuff and post stuff”
that made me smile. i work hard at not caring, and caring at the same time, working to be loose and controlled together but i cannot define any of it, it’s a feeling, and most often a failing caught in the trap of overthinking.
or is that flailing …
I shoot from my feeling….
my intuitive…
I still shoot film,
so I am careful with my framing….
$12 for 36 exposures….
I gotta be thinking…
I love my M6 and provia…
so
sexy
and
so
fun…….
x0x
***
wendy, dogs on rooftops :))
But if you don’t care , how can you expect anyone else to give a toss?
Regarding loose and tight; I had an experience today regarding both. I’ve spent the last two days shooting at a local A&P Show (a country fair) solely for my kids project (and last weekend at another show).
Whereas today I had to shoot a selection of images for an article about the show; mostly stock-type images (no pun intended!) of “typical” events, rides, sideshows etc. All images had to be very “to the point”, tight and a bit didactic I suppose. Typical newspaper-ish stuff I suppose; cute kid cuddling lamb etc…
The work for my own project was much looser and followed the kids of three different families as they prepared their calves, cows etc for showing (and as they played around of course). All loose “spur of the moment stuff. I also took some images of the kids for the article but found it difficult switching back and forth from “magazine mode” to “personal mode” as different things occurred.
I’ve also noticed how hard it is (for me) to shoot with the Holga and digi at the same time. A bit like “mag mode” and “personal mode” I think. Anyone else have similar occurrences? Maybe I’m just a typical male unable to multi-task! :-)
One thing for sure; it was way more enjoyable shooting the personal work! It was certainly at the other end of the spectrum from shooting the late night music scene! I think I had just about forgotten what shooting in daylight was like! :-)
Cheers
don’t give a toss about lose tight whatever……… never stated that I expect anything
……. if the audience says your work is tight that’s how it will remain perceived……… if they reckon it is crap it is crap as you are not getting through to them……….
I couldn’t care less about loose or tight, its either good or it isn’t. Ive seen a lot of loose crap, and a lot of tight crap. And vice versa.
On another note, I’m still mulling Erica’s essay over. I’m really undecided as far as liking it or not. I can say for now that I am really not a fan of vertical framing and that it is giving me a hard time in being as enthusiastic about the essay as almost everyone who praised it.
Then you must be blind. Even Helen keller could see the quality in this.
j
DAVID BOWEN…
you are now one of my priorities for getting your work up here on Burn…so let’s see if we can carve out some time this week to get your work down to something manageable…
RAFAL…
like you, i do not care if work is loose or tight…besides, there are so many other factors anyway…for me personally i am much more interested in the emotional texture than i am in the composition per se…however one can achieve the kinetic energy to make a viewer “feel” is my personal interest..this of course may not be the goal for others…many artists in fact do try to do the opposite and take out all emotion as if emotional context was not “artistic”…if i tried that , it would just not be me…so i am stuck with it no matter how the critics view it…i would say on top of all of this that when i am working i am not at all conscious of trying to make a photograph to appeal to anyone else…ironic since so much of my work has been published in the mass media…whatever appeal i have had to any kind of mass audience is purely coincidental with my intentions while making the photographs…somehow i sensed early on that if i tried to appeal , i would not appeal…
many photographers have shot quite successful verticals….i have made about 4 or 5 verticals in my whole life where i made prints after and those were all in my early years…two of those are among my best selling collector prints…but, if i went out right now to make photographs, i definitely would not shoot a vertical..however, not conscious effort, and i have nothing against them, i just do not make them instinctively…one format i have not tried for years is square…back in university days i made a lot of squares and sometimes do feel it would be interesting to explore again..we will see….
cheers, david
HERVE…
having worked with Panos, and having seen hundreds of his pictures as prints, i would say he does not consider the editing process at this point…he simply likes shooting…and at this point, i think his instincts are correct…he should just stay raw…if he over thinks, he will blow the whole deal…he should be left alone to just react imo…
I have no issue with verticals. I shoot verticals as much as horizontal, though it isn’t a conscious decision. Some photos just seem “natural” as verticals, some horizontal. I think Erica’s vertical framing works very well for her images.
John,
No, Helen Keller could not see any quality in it, or anything else, she was blind, but you knew that already and just made a crude and offensive remark using blindness as a punchline. It is something I would have expected from you, knowing your on-line personality.
“Life lives, life dies. Life laughs, life cries. Life gives up and life tries. But life looks different through everyone’s eyes.”
Welcome back MR. BURN…HARVEY !!!
BURNIANS…keep rolling …keep shooting…
AS a consumer I buy from my heart …tight,loose,vertical,horizontial,
call my name…I’ll be there !!!
It’s interesting that some of the most fervent “loose or tight, it’s all good!” comments are from the loosest photographers of all!
“…nobody said loose was necessarily better..”
Strictly speaking that’s true. I’m unaware of anyone in these pages who would have been so crass as to say exactly that. However…
There’s little question, I think, that “loose” is the preferred style by a majority here. And yes, there is, occasionally, a clique-ish feel about the place. “Travel” photography is generally mocked. “Straight” photography sniffed at. So, yeah, in essence “loose” is “better”. Take a trip through the featured essays and singles. What–mostly–do you see that has been chosen?
Now, to be fair this is really not necessarily bad or wrong. It is what it is. This is DAH’s place. People by and large arrive here because they are attracted to him and his style. If Tom Mangelsen or Bob Krist had a similar online forum there would likely be far less “loose” photographers frequenting it. There might be more “What’s with all this blurry stuff?”
But Burn is Burn. It’s simply not the place to visit to find “straight”/”tight” photography. And that’s OK.
IMANTS…
i do hope to connect this week with you as well…many thanks for all those singles…i plan to publish soonest….i am just now back on my front porch….world travel is terrific, educational, and provides a good world view..but,hard to beat just hanging out at home and only concerned with whatever is going on within sight of my front porch….which is ironically a new commission for me…yes, i am actually going to get paid to stay at home…now how is that for a commission? take care amigo, and we will skype soonest….
cheers, david
D..:)
You Got Me
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBBBhQUl99w
(welcome home)
MICHAEL KIRCHER…
now wait just a minute..didn’t i just publish two pretty straight stories by both Glen Campbell and Michael Loyd Young? and do not forget, some of this so called “loose” is in the edit and the presentation….Erica’s work for example is pretty straight forward..if you just look at the pictures sitting on the table, you simply think straight..you are probably right that many come here because they may have known of my work, but i surely try try try NOT to have anyone with whom i meet, either student or anyone to event think for a nanosecond that they should emulate me…i have so stated many times that i genuinely appreciate many styles and kinds of photography…just for example: i love Imants approach which bears no resemblance to anything i would do…i learn from Imants…but, i do not imitate Imants…what i do share with Imants is an open mind and a desire to move way way outside the proverbial box….if Burn publishes a variety of material, then that does match my thinking entirely, even though it does not match my own photography style…
you well know i want to work with you on your work…you are a pretty straight shooter…i will only push you and edit you on your own terms…i would not try to turn you into someone other than Michael…all i would do is to try and get you to explore your own so called straight boundaries..within your world of straight there is much more for you to explore…i think you would agree…so, let’s work on it…now, get straight, get really really straight…like Tom and Bob, who are both good friends…it is true that their work does not get me in the belly like say Antoine D’Agata, but i have a total appreciation for what they do…ain’t no right or wrong to it…..
i will be coming to D.C. this week i think..pretty busy while there, but maybe we could have a few minutes together…again , many thanks for your superb coverage of the Burn opening at Fight Club…
cheers, david
Ugh. I should have known better.
I in no way meant to suggest that you, David, try to turn others into you! Never. Not what I meant at all. Only that this straight versus tight discussion is interesting and like it or not this place is sort of kind of geared towards the “looser” style. I really do think that is OK. And if there is a clique-ish aspect now and then it is certainly not your doing. (And I probably shouldn’t have used that word. Sorry.)
Honestly, no offense meant by it. Going to get my 2nd cup of coffee, clearly I need it.
GLEN…
great to finally meet you in Bangkok…..good times amigo and thanks so much for coming…Rafal and you are my two oldest friends who i met here online…and one of the joys of publishing here is that i have somehow managed to meet so many in person…you were in person pretty much as i would have imagined…i am only sorry that you saw only a very jet lagged version of dah….please visit me at home sometime…you would be most welcomed…i am sure our paths will indeed cross again..and i am ready ready ready to work with you on some potential sponsorship for your aborigine work as well as some project involving aborigine kids with cameras for potential publication on Circus…
cheers, david
MICHAEL…
geez, no no i was not offended….damn this method of communication is not always perfect…only text is worse for often creating misunderstandings…i was writing you with a twinkle in my eye….hope to see you this week…
cheers, hugs, david
OK cool. Yes… text, email, forums… minefields everywhere. My bad.
Would love to hook up, anytime!
Peace.
Georgia is a country…
destroyed recently by the russians…
nothing new here , right?
today a friend of mine in athens wanted her house
to be cleaned..so whats the answer?
find an immigrant… they charge less..
they work harder..the usual form of slavery…
So,
today i met a young girl ( the house cleaner )..she came to clean my friends house..
She was a young girl from the republic of Georgia..
She wasnt alone..She brought her mother with her..
The daughter 7 years now in greece, illegally , she managed to gather 3500 euros,
to pay the “turkish/greek coyotes”…to bring her mother ( smuggle ) in greece..
14 hour trip with bus… HIDING IN A SUITCASE…
YES..THE MOTHER ( OLDER WOMAN IN THE PHOTO BELOW ) HIDING IN A SUITCASE..
IN A BUS…
in a bus that the authorities WILL NOT SEARCH…as long as u paid the price…
The older woman ( the mother )…57 years old..
the most beautiful and proud woman i ever met..
They told me the story..
the details…but you know it all..
yes u do..
All i did is one picture..
the REUNION..
http://picasaweb.google.com/innerspacecowpanos/Tif17?authkey=Gv1sRgCOSe9OCwobGFugE#slideshow/5409549119112010690
Hey Panos,
Great story and terrific picture… maybe your future lies in eastern Mediterranean reportage, leave that narcissistic Southern California lifestyle behind and really MOVE us…???!!!
Michael Kircher,
No need to feel embarassment or to dissemble for telling it like it is… I thought what you said was exactly right. Of course, DAH has a very wide embrace, and a spirit of unrivaled generosity, and that is at least as attractive to many of us as his style of photography is.
Sidney…
:)
thank you
thank you
thank you…
u totally make sense…courage is all i need right now..
i “swim” in an ocean of anger and desperation right now..
I came back in greece after all those years (heavily distracted and absorbed in my narcissistic S.C lifestyle,
as u perfectly described…)
just to face “reality”..heavy injustice , discrimination, hate, ignorance and on and on…
deeply depressed, heavy ( ifeel i got extra 1000 pounds on my feet… i need to be extra careful though)
because i dont like what i see..
its hurting me..therefore i cant be neutral…
but maybe im wrong…
its just i lost my greek pride…
that alone killed me…
but i need to find the courage to go on..
and you, Sidney ..yes u..with your generosity and guidance..u are helping me to the fullest to proceed..
to go on…
to keep shooting…
thank u Burn..
thank u DAH..
thank u Sidney..
( ahhhh…fucking emotions take the best of me once again…)
its hurting me..therefore i cant be neutral…
———————————————–
and i dont wanna be a lier..
i dont wanna give the wrong picture…
i hate emotions..my emotions..but i cant change..
its just me being me… 2 late now..
but..
at least…
im aware of it…
PANOS
My dear brother, THIS is why you are a great photographer…because you FEEL and feel deeply. Whether it is joy/despair, hate/love, pride/disgust, elation/depression, attraction/repulsion. It doesn’t matter. Man, just SHOOT IT, whatever “it” is on that day in that place at that moment. Sure, we prefer the positive emotions but some of the greatest art ever created or captured came when the artist/photographer felt so f**ked up he/she didn’t know which end was up. Just DO IT, dear Panos. Feel your feelings through your camera. This is your moment, my friend. Seize it!!!
BIG hugs
Patricia
wendy
November 28, 2009 at 8:29 pm
I shoot from my feeling….
my intuitive…
I still shoot film,
so I am careful with my framing….
$12 for 36 exposures….
I gotta be thinking…
I love my M6 and provia…
so
sexy
and
so
fun…….
x0x
***
Wendy….
next time i see you…
i will ask u out…
im not just infatuated with u…:)
after this comment ..hmm i am in love..:))))))
witchu…
last time i met u..well…i ended up in jail….
and it was fabulous B. right next to me but next time i see u..
be aware…
im gonna ask u out…
( whatever that means )
big hug
peace…
btw..all , click here:
http://conversesrouges.com/2009/11/23/shy-girl/comment-page-1/#comment-6236
Patricia..
listen..
here in greece i met lots of of photo lovers..photographers..
any way u call it..
young people that gave up hope..
i live in vain they told me..
noone cares about me they said…
nobody cares about my photos…
why bother?
…
im too old..
im too young..
im too healthy…
im too sick…
i dont have the right equipment…
im disabled…
my husband wont let me..
blah
blah
blah
blah……….
ok.. i guessed u guessed my answer..
very simple ..
VERY FUCKING SIMPLE….
i turn everyone to this motherfucking link..:
ALL PLZ CHECK THIS OUT..:
https://www.burnmagazine.org/essays/2008/12/patricia-lay-dorsey-falling-into-place/#comments
Panos…..he simply likes shooting
——————————–
Just like me… And also us, many of us, here! I mean shooting keeps you from editing, no? :-)
im too old..
im too young..
im too healthy…
im too sick…
i dont have the right equipment…
im disabled…
my husband wont let me..
——————————-
It does sound like you are in Europe, Panos! :-)
At the risk of being (yet again) called an a**kisser, I would say to your young/old Greek photo friends: Go to THIS link and then turn your camera on what is around you. Don’t think, just shoot and shoot and shoot and shoot and shoot and…
https://www.burnmagazine.org/essays/2008/12/panos-skoulidas-venice-beach/
Patricia
HERVE…
yes, yes…anything, i mean anything, to avoid editing is the way to go!! i am the same, i only like shooting…you have no idea how far behind i am in editing my own work…one of the obvious ways i do that is to edit other people..so so much easier….hence Burn!
And also us, many of us, here!
—————————————-
nope ,
many of “us here” care most about “success” than shooting…
see ? big difference.. my good friend
:)
big hug
crazy shit panos…..
yeah…
ask me out……
***
WENDY…PANOS
how can we ever re-create the rooftop scene in Venice Beach or a night in the Jim Morrison bus? either of you remember?
It does sound like you are in Europe, Panos! :-)
—————————————————–
nope again..:)
..ask Sidney.. he can explain it wayyyyyyyyyy batter than i can!
( love u herve )
Talking about books.. and time..
It’s taken him just 14 years of taking pics, and some more for self publishing (with the help of his friends and students) this book:
http://www.bazancuba.com/
I’m home now from seeing the exhibition, and of course, buying the book. Simply beautiful, both, the prints and the book. If you get a chance check it out!
David…Wendy..
we will..
we have to..
Wendy…:)
ahhh Wendy…
i just DID ask u out..
( next time in person ..ok:)
I await……
DAH
maybe miami jan?
http://picasaweb.google.com/innerspacecowpanos/JailTimeDogBiteInVenice?authkey=Gv1sRgCK_b2ZKvw97VCw#slideshow/5308467594965584562
dAVID/wENDY
above the link…
of course i ( we ) remember
:))))))))))))
EVA…
good suggestion..yes, it is interesting how Ernesto has managed to have his students finance his book…Ernesto and i have been friends for years, meeting in Cuba, and we were just concurrently together for the Day of the Dead in Oaxaca…we both did a simultaneous interview for one of the big Mexico City newspapers, but i have not seen the final result…if you see it, please let me know…curious how it got played in the press…
cheers, david
anybody want to edit this wedding? i don’t (hardly ever) do this for a reason …
Panos, i know you can tell your story of feeling alienated in the country of your birth better than anyone else … and thanks for the Mythos.
YOUNG..
once again ..mythos 4U:
http://conversesrouges.com/2009/11/13/mythos-burn-for-tom-hyde/#comments
PANOS…
laughing,…funny..brilliant dude…how in hell did you find those pics THAT fast?? i could not have done that, but then again , nobody worse at finding pics than yours truly….hey, didn’t i shoot that pic of you and Barbora with your camera? notice i focused on her and not you? you are just a blur..but, that is just the way i saw it…
cheers, david
Talking about jagged, David, I received this in a mail titled “DAH’s last night in Thailand”, and I wonder if you could explain to us…. I mean, what is that: DAHsperado? :-)))
Worse than unedited… Undone!
Why, david, why? the future looked so bright. BURN, CIRCUS, being a father again soon (Simone)…
Nice wig and mustachoe though, but did not quite do the job, or did it? See for yourself:
http://www.pbase.com/image/119827594/original
PS: hope coffee was not spilled over this one! :-)))))
WENDY…
damn, i forgot i am supposed to be in Miami in jan….thanks for the reminder…shouldn’t i get a daybook or calendar or something??
abrazos, david
hey, didn’t i shoot that pic of you and Barbora with your camera? notice i focused on her and not you? you are just a blur..
——————————————————————————————–
yes..yes…this is the photo i “copied” when i started blurring my foreground and keeping the
background sharper…
thats why i shot that lovely kitty blurry…
anyway..
more here:
http://picasaweb.google.com/innerspacecowpanos/DAHInVenice?authkey=Gv1sRgCI3JvIHsmr6dBQ#slideshow/5300839491532914866
HERVE…
i keep telling my students NOT to take pics of me after class!! well, you cannot tell them to get loose, be themselves, get in and then get the picture, without some repercussions…yup, now the whole empire up in smoke!
PANOS,
wait till you see the list that I have from SIDNEY …
” THE reading list “…I have it under my pillow …next to my ouzo,next to my mouse…
HERVE,
editing is another chapter that BURNIANS have to master…
BUT it seems that the journey to get there is important too… IMO or NIMO :)))
WENDY,
You rock…oime BURNIANS are really BURNing !!!
I am the happiest civilian of all…our PATRICIA …yes
SEIZE THE BURNING MOMENT…LOVE
P.S Where are you BURNIANS ??? KATIE FONSECA…I need your words on my screen …
VIVA !!!
Sidney Atkins…
I was not dissembling, I swear. I just didn’t like the idea that DAH may have thought I thought he was trying to turn people into him. That’s all.
DAMNIT…you write so fast …
yup, now the whole empire up in smoke!
————————————-
I sure feel bad now for not being there with you, and save you from yourself! ;-)
David, no idea about that interview, sorry, sitting on the other side of the planet here ;)
He was giving a three day workshop in Lucca (Tuscany), and interviewed live at the photocaffè (along with Scianna, Majoli over skype from Indonesia, Eikoh Hosoe and some more) on Saturday night. His exhibition is wonderful, and the book is packed!
From ERICA to ANDREI
BURN is on FIRE.
I love Internet !!!
What not to LOVE…
P.S MR.HARVEY in Thailand …hmmm…
HERVE…wait till you see him in Greece …
what a pisser …!!!
DAH…
the portrait you shot of me & B…
ended up in this:
http://picasaweb.google.com/innerspacecowpanos/TIFTIFS?authkey=Gv1sRgCNLn1qnSp-S2Iw#slideshow/5403918606743615938
big thanks
big hug
“)
Oh my gawd, the REAL DAH unmasked. YOU GO GUY!!!!!
Thanks, Herve. You sure do have your finger on the pulse of life in Thailand…
Patricia
Herve, I may have just pissed myself laughing so hard … oh god, too funny … sorry David :))
Thanks again Panos :)) I need my greek salad with huge chunks of feta on top, lamb and keftedes now … maybe dolmades too … followed by a walk up 300 well-worn marble steps …
I discovered burn a couple months ago. I don’t remember where I clicked the link, but I had never heard of David. I’ve enjoyed the slideshows and some of the commentary. And it’s been good for me as a photographer. I come from a very traditional J-school background, probably much like David’s (anyone heard of Will Counts?), and although I spend a good deal of time off the reservation, still find myself most often in the “tight” camp. Seeing all the “loose” stuff on burn has caused me to evaluate some compositions differently. It’s an uphill climb though. I don’t doubt that it’s just as difficult to shoot “loose” effectively, it’s still much easier to shoot “loose” in general.
I’ve enjoyed this tight/loose thread. Of course these terms are mostly irrelevant to the act of creation, but definitions such as these are necessary to talk about it. Without tools for criticism, it too often comes down to “that essay sucks” or “that essay is so great I wet myself.” I don’t see how either extreme helps the photographer, nor the art of photography.
Anybody heard of Liu Bolin?
http://v1kram.posterous.com/liu-bolinthe-invisible-man
http://www.weirdasianews.com/2009/08/02/chinese-artist-shows-disappear/
Crazy stuff. China must be the origin of pure patience.
Thanks Patricia, and Tom, you made my day, laughing that hard.
Maybe I should send it to Magnum…. David? yes? No? Seriously…
TOM ,
I am the one with the feta, the keftedes,the souvlakia, the augolemona…
BJARTE,
Copy and paste …Dope :)))
Houston… do you copy ???
And Panos, CHEERS back at ya big guy …
AKAKYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
731… follow the link … partyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
Civi, you are too cool … have you and Panos met yet?
Tom Hyde,
From the wedding, no doubt..??
Is that strong vignetting deliberate? SOP for wedding photography?
Just curious.
Michael K,
Sorry, “dissemble” was the wrong word… and I understand your intention.
But I still think what you first wrote is spot on.
MICHAEL WEBSTER…
yes, sure i know Will Counts…or, rather , of him…nothing wrong with traditional photo-j background…i do feel that so called traditional photo-j needs some tweaking in some ways, but the integrity factor outweighs any stylistic encumbrances….in any case, you have been most welcomed here with your reasoned evaluations and comments….please make yourself at home and submit work as you see fit…
cheers, david
TOM the Greek,
PANOS is like a blur…he is the invisible celebrity…
Mythos on the Greeks tonight …ainte Viva !!!
YOUNG..
:)
GOTCHA
thank u..
:)
SIDNEY…
isn’t this where the movie started? didn’t you and i start a couple of years ago on this same discussion? there will always be those who expect a certain kind of photography to be displayed..either straighter or looser…surely i do reflect the more “leading edge” attempts at photography either straight or loose…Michael Brown’s Sakalin for example was in the “straight” school for sure as was Michael Mullady’s Children of Lead, yet they took us way out ahead of “travel” photography (of which i surely do not have interest)…at the same time La Familia Abrazada , curated by Rafal, could have been considered as being from the “loose” school, certainly brought us “home” in a sensitive way not at all in conflict with the “straight” sensibility regarding integrity or bearing witness…some get confused between style and substance….i am not always interested in pure substance as the only measure of good work, but if you run through the archive i think you will find mostly substance based material regardless of personal style…
cheers, david
I am going out …
I ate tzatziki and your house smells like a dead procyon lotor…
MR.DAH … you are a breath of fresh air…
( to be perceived as a compliment)
P.S BURNIANS…dead line …focus
oh, I forgot…
LASSAL, HAIK… you are in my mind…
I owe you
I think Harvey looked a lot like Hulk Hogan in that photo. The wig is good. :)
I predict the photo will go viral in a few days.
I predict the photo will go viral in a few days.
—————————————–
Well, Jim, not sure, ACMA is furiously, and most likely succesfully, trying to get people’s attention back to her, and her only.
How could I dare elicit a few laughs between her glorious posts?…
;-)
David;
I’m just wondering what is in the Thai water that makes hair re-grow like that? I could sure use some of it… :-)
Sidney, I know nothing of SOP. Evidence to the contrary, I do not do weddings and I say this often ;-)) … as for the vignette, it is what happens at 1/4000, 1.4, with a 35 prime wide open on my full frame camera, slightly underexposed, which I do a lot and like these days, or sometimes the exact opposite. There is a setting in the camera to compensate for the vignette … somewhere … and I could probably process it out after the fact … but this is pretty close to right off the card so it is what it is, which is what the couple wanted, except mostly in black and white (god bless). So yes, it’s a byproduct of an intentional manual camera setting but the central intent was not to create a vignette. I don’t mind it though.
Tom
I can help with editing your wedding if you need. I need to focus on something. Might as well be useful for someone else.
Bjarte, thank you, that is very cool of you :)) … but I’m nearly done, in more ways than one.
Tom
Ah, okey, but just let me know another time if you need to borrow another pair of eyes. My e-mail is bjedvard@yahoo.no
THANK you HERVE,
you are focused…
Yes,I am fast and furious and flamboyant and tedious and cool and …
there is a reason… why I live in the country of the moustaches …
My kibbutz boy, I am traumatized cause you never game me a chance with your bike…
remember the one next to the chateau …and I loved your brides…
but you were so fast and furious
back then…and yes, I Love attention…it’s all about me…
ah, HERVE… I wonder …how many stories we have to share when finally we will meet…
VIVA BURNIANS … tick-talk, tick-tack…I LOVE YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
yes, HERVE…u too :)))
PANOS..
oh yes, i remembered the kitty picture anyway…now, the point is, whatever happened to Barbora?
DAVID…
B. is fine …
i’d rather update u in our next skype session…
but a lost soul is always a lost soul…
but yes, we did have a quick emotional reunion
in venice beach
couple nights before
i flew to grecolandia….
ahhh..let me tell u more in private..
Dave – We will keep our secrets from BKK close , What happens in BKK ,Stays in BKK. Straight V Loose ? My approach to photography is pretty loose but a sharp picture with lots of information is still to my taste , I did loosen up a little by day 3.
http://www.picturestoryblog.com/2009/11/guest-post-by-glenn-campbell-from-the-f8-workshop-in-bangkok.html#more
Dave – BTW let me know about Circus? There’s some possibilities!
Speaking of verticals, Glenn, your final shot on Day 1 knocked my socks off. WOW!!! Loved your understated text too. So brought back memories of DAH’s and Jim N’s Look3 workshop last June. Ah yes, it’s all in the throw-aways, the asides no one’s listening to. But YOU listened. And you got it. Look forward to meeting you one day…
Patricia
Glen, great post, nice photos. Reminds me of my walkabouts in Bangkok two years ago during the workshop, including the hike from Chinatown (where I got lost in the backalleys) to Sukhumvit in the middle of the night. Saw a great kung fu movie in the street under the Rama freeway about halfway … uhhhm, I missed class that morning … caught crap about being AWOL but … no excuses :))
Funny, Patricia and I posted at the same time, about the same workshop duo, different cities …
Who says there’s not synchronicity between virtual friends ;=)
Pat – It’s all about using technology for the important stuff!
YOUNG TOM…
i still remember that killer picture you took of the elephant..where is that essay by the way??…remembering good times and good pics all around..this most recent workshop was just three days, so not the same as when you were there..do you have any plans to come back east?? you know we are going to have some kind of Burn meeting in NYC, so i am up for jamming everybody in my space just like we did last year…come for Mike Young opening on dec 10…after party my place….sound fun?
cheers, david
wish I would be there!
by the way David, I’m slowly getting things scanned here, just finishing up on my Cambodian images from way back in 97′. Thats how long it takes me.. My God.. Too depressing. So I am looking forward to the day when I get linked up to Skype and hear what you think of the way I photograph things.
PETER…
yes, get hooked to skype and have your pics on photoshelter or some other easy way to view and we can go over all of it…
PANOS
many of “us here” care most about “success” than shooting…
——————————–
I wouldn’t know, Panos. Photography seems to me the craziest media to achieve success. Now, of course, people can always redefine success as they fail along. But people are people, Panos, we must be hard on ourselves and indulgent with others…
Thanks David. I appreciated this offer of advise you gave me a couple of months back now. But I’ve been so busy working to save up enough money to continue on with my Indian festivals project, which obviously you can imagine, there can be no end in sight if one gets caught in this but there are some essential festivals I’ve yet to photograph. And now, thinking about getting a digital camera as , over past few years only been able to afford cheap colour neg film which is now, at times, very disappointing seeing the awful results from some of those cheap films.
So, I’ve been working towards getting a paid site on PHOTOSHELTER so I will be able to fit the images I am currently scanning. The free site at Photoshelter I have has been full since about the 2nd day I opened it.
But at least if I get enough images on there to give you an idea of where and what, and how I photograph, which will enable you to be able to give me the criticism I need. I still want to be a professional photographer, if I have the ability. I just have no ambition to promote myself ironically, in that I would like to be a professional photographer but purely so I can live my life endulging myself in this wonderful art.
thanks David for responding.
Peter, if you are happy doing anything else in the world, don’t pursue professional photography. You’ll just ruin a great hobby. Only shoot professionally if nothing else will make you happy. :)
David … damn, cannot tell you how much I wish I could be there but really there is just no way. I have a major (non-photo) project coming together right about then and … damn. I was only there one or two full days last time and it was a blast … got a decent photo out of it too :)) I know, i know, i keep saying i’ll be back east and things keep coming up … but, I do have to get back there before too long since it’s been too long since I saw my Mom in Lexington (VA) and many friends, so I’ll make a proper east coast tour out of it when the time comes … Lexington, Richmond (been decades, that’ll be interesting), OBX (decades too), New York … and maybe, if I’m really good, I’ll find the time to road trip it from here … damn, I should have kept that purple schoolbus. Peace.
The Bangkok essay? It was always a bit too disjointed but yeah, that one shot was my best, and i assume it’s sitting in the Road Trips archive somewhere … I still look at my Bangkok archive now and again … full of very straight and very loose and just trying to find myself :))
thanks for your thoughts JIM… and I do agree, which is how I’ve been playing this game called life (I don’t use the word game cynically but rather in how life is, your dealt a certain hand and the smart ones make the most of their hand. I’m not so smart at this game).
I have dabbled in trying to make a wage from photography by free lancing, but I had no plan, I simply pursued themes that interested me, then tried selling some of the images I ended up with to the wires and publications. I wasn’t knowledgeable enough to seek out the right contacts. So I simply found it easier to come back to Australia and work in odd jobs and save until I had enough o go off again. Now I have built up an archive of images which I’d not only like to earn some money from, but most of all, I’d like to think that they become part of the visual communication which I personally so appreciate..
PETE,
where are you in the Universe right now???
JIMMY,
well written
synchronicity between virtual friends …our PATRICIA…lovely
GLENN,
keep BURNing…VIVA !!!
TOM,
…purple bus…I knew it…please, don’t find yourself…we LOVE you !!!
I need more BURNIANS …Spacecowboy…dead line…BURN
DAH: thought you were supposed to drop by PPenh?
occupational hazard that is of photojournalism…
when will it end…
sad… so so sad…
http://www.newsday.com/news/journalists-protest-massacre-in-philippines-1.1628715
1,000 journalists and activists marched Monday in the capital to protest the massacre in the southern Philippines of 57 civilians….
u read this Civi?
and of journalism, freedom, freedom of speech
so so sad
http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,1943189_2006182,00.html
panos,
i have read your troubles in seeing and feeling the reality of your grecolandia … as you call it.
this makes my eyes run dry… saddest thing is this has been going on for the longest time…
i have grieved for about a week for this in particular… but i have mourned for close to a lifetime.
:((
JOHN…
the organizer of the BKK workshop was to have organized a similar one in PP, but just could not get it done…we will do it in the spring…Canon, sponsor of the BKK deal, just simply ran out of funding…and as you well know, the Cambodian photographers surely need support from the outside…i think you and i need to work by private email the best way to make this happen..
as always, wishing you well
cheers, david
GRACIE…
we all mourn with you…i usually celebrate the upside of human nature, but nobody can be blind to our equally cruel dark dark side…ideology run amok, from all sides, seems to fuel our darkest spirit..
YOUNG TOM..
oh yes, i forgot i ran that elephant picture on Road Trips…you my friend are best loose…your landscapes are particularly evocative in this way..what are normally considered fodder for straight, you shoot loose…yet, very very descriptive…..always anxious to see more…
I’m amazed at how quickly technology allows books to be published. I was surprised to see in the book “Photo:Box” that in the bio accompanying DAH’s photo of the naked fisherman’s kid, that it noted “He also edits Burn, an online photography magazine.” I realize the book was just published, but, still…
Also, the book is a bargain. $20 at Amazon.com, and 500 pages or so of darn well reproduced photos with a brief writeup on the photographer relating to the work, and short bio.
we must be hard on ourselves and indulgent with others…
———————————————————-
well said Herve..:)
not sure, ACMA is furiously, and most likely succesfully, trying to get people’s attention back to her, and her only.
—————————————————————————————–
now , follow that piece of advice that u so generously just gave me..
;)
ideology run amok, from all sides, seems to fuel our darkest spirit..
———————————————————————–
speaking of ideologies…
( from Wiki, about the CHURCH of scientology )
“Homosexuality:
Hubbard’s “tone scale”, a means of classifying individuals and human behaviour on a chart running from +40 (the most beneficial) to -40 (the least beneficial). Sexual perversion, a category in which he included homosexuality, was termed “covert hostility” and given a score of 1.1, “the level of the pervert, the hypocrite, the turncoat, … the subversive.” Such people were “skulking coward[s] who yet contain[] enough perfidious energy to strike back, but not enough courage ever to give warning.”[8][9][7]..”
yikes….thats all i can say…shame..
fuck all churches
wait….there is more..
“….During Scientology “Security Checks”, an “Ethics Officer” performs the Auditing process, and many of the possible questions asked during this session involve the subject’s sex life, including: “Have you ever had sex with any other student or staff member?”, “Have you ever used Dianetics or Scientology to force sex on someone?”, “Have you ever raped anyone?”, “Have you ever been raped?”, “Have you ever been involved in an abortion?”, “Do you have any bastards?”, “Have you ever been sexually unfaithful?”, “Have you ever practiced homosexuality?”, “Have you ever practiced sodomy?”, “Have you ever had intercourse with a member of your family?”, “Have you practiced sex with children?”, “Have you ever used hypnotism to practice sex with children?”, “Have you ever slept with a member of a race of another color?”, “Have you ever practiced sex with animals?”, “Have you ever had anything to do with pornography?”, and “Have you ever masturbated?”.[19][20]…”
L. Ron Hubbard wrote that “sex crime” on an individual investigating Scientology should be reported to the press, in order to “Make it rough, rough on attackers all the way.
“Have you ever slept with a member of a race of another color?”
make it rough..rough on the attackers all the way
yikes again..
is that racism? or what????????????????
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuJlZ_f1594
scientology and me – bbc panorama.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyKEcV-66kM&feature=fvst
enjoy
http://www.vbox7.com/play:7ba8ad21?r=google
southpark scientology ´trapped in the closet¨´
David ..
thanks for the video
john sweeney is an excellent reporter.. when he ´looses it´as they get firmer in the brainwashing department.. just great.
horrible organization..
http://www.vbox7.com/play:7ba8ad21?r=google
the southpark take on it is funnier.. the famed ´trapped in the closet´episode tom cruise had gagged.
having trouble posting this here though.. 3rd time lucky..
morning all – am back at a machine…how will I ever catch up?
JIM…
i have never seen this book, nor heard of it..i just took a quick look at Amazon and see the picture of the fisherman’s son as one of the cover shots…Roberto Koch is the head of Contrasto in Italy and is one of Magnum’s sub agents, so he obviously is the man behind it…yes, that is surprising he would mention Burn in my bio since normally books take so long to produce…or, at least they did in the past..yes, an amazing price…i will check it out..thanks for the tip…
PANOS…DAVID B
hmmmmm…when i lived in Washington, my apartment was about a block away from the Scientology headquarters which was also across the street from my favorite pub…i always thought it interesting that this massive stone structure never seemed to have anyone going in or out of it….i had to walk past it every day on my way to Natgeo when i was in town for an edit, but it always seemed so so quiet…i will be the first to say that i have only heard rumors and never went inside to see what was going on nor did i ever seek out any official literature (i do not think the Panos video was being shot inside)….so, i cannot make an educated comment one way or the other…David, your video clip i just saw was not complete (or did i do something wrong?) so i am very curious how the show ended…it is very hard for me to understand getting so so wrapped up in dogma of any kind…on the other hand, i am very curious to read or hear the Scientology pitch…those who are into it, are really really into it..
later…ok,saw the whole bit…disturbing piece all around….
DON`T.. start out fresh :ø)
tea, toast and onward..
dah – will post the parts now..
emcd – message above was for you :ø)
scientology and me part one
part 2
part 3
part 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DY_MLq7mwac&feature=related
dogma.. narrow mindedness.. all enemies of free thought.
Those four videos were like the proverbial train wreck, as horrifying as it is, I just couldn’t not watch! What a bunch of vicious thugs. I say we put Panos on the case! A Burn expose. Heh! That’s something I’d pay to watch.
now , follow that piece of advice that u so generously just gave me..
————————————-
I did, Panos. You just forgot to copy and paste the most important part of my sentence to Jim… the smiley (1). OUT OF CONTEXT, OUT OF CONTEXT……….
(1) :-) that is called a smiley,it means don’t take it too seriously, smile, laugh about it!
:-)
i love u herveeeeeeeeeeeeeeee..
i really do..
and i know u know it..:)
I watched too..david b, did you have something to do with the production?
an almost smile, below
(:>{|)
“HERVE …you are a mean person…”hmmm… easy, cause the smiley doesn’t work for everybody
Copy and paste…:)))
hihihi…:))) that is called smiley …We LOVE u !!!
MyGRACIE,
I know…sad,sad,sad…I read the news…
EMCD,
can I have a signed copy too??? I mean your upcoming book…???
DAVIDB,PANOS,
tell it as it is ….I will follow closely…
P.S I am drinking mythos and I am eating papoutsakia…VIVA TOM !!!
BURNIANS…KATIE,LASSAL, AUDREY,HAIK,ABELE,REIMAR,THODORIS…ANDREAC,MIKER,PETE,LISA,KERRY…
……………………..
………………………. SPACECOWBOY… where are youuuuu???
BURNIANS,
I LOVE YOU ALLL
Hey Erica.
Actually, I did live in pretty much the same neighborhood you shot. It was predominantly Puerto Rican on one side of the street and there were still a few oldsters on the other, including the aforementioned Betty. If you want some good audio, be on my old block on the first day of the year that really feels like summer. If you want to get some sleep though, forget it. My landlord was a Puerto Rican from the neighborhood. He was probably doing as much as anyone to change the place. He bought up one old house after another, renovated it, and rented it out to little yuppie families fleeing Manhattan. I knew of at least a couple others like him.
So I didn’t mean that your Park Slope was nearly unrecognizable because the subjects you photograph are not the $500 stroller crowd. It was nearly unrecognizable to me because of the artistic choices you made. For example, most of your subjects in Park Slope have surfaces that reflect a more full spectrum of color than the grays with which you portray them. And they listen to Boricua, Rap and soul, loudly, often through busted speakers, not the type of piano that accompanies your sound track. My old neighborhood, you see, was very loud and colorful. Yours is much more dark and ominous.
Don’t get me wrong. I respect your vision and the choices you’ve made to communicate it and I recognize that you have done well with them. Any conception of reality is subjective and we make aesthetic choices in how we portray it based on how we see the world and what it is we want to communicate. I’m not saying that my vision of that same subject, say a house on 15th street between Fourth and Fifth, or the same woman sitting on the same stoop, is any better than yours (probably not as good, to be honest). I just find it interesting how people perceive the same things differently, as well as the artistic choices they make based on those perceptions. And even more so in this case because I know the area so well. It’s not often I see a professional photo essay that was shot in my own back yard (so to speak). Normally they’re from somewhere exotic, like Belarus, the Andes, or the steppes of Asia and I have no relevant point of comparison.
Were I your editor, I’d say you might consider a shot or two that better establishes location. I’d also say that if one is going to write about yuppie encroachment, one should consider showing at least some hint of it. And I’d consider that if one is going to show young boys and girls, it might be nice to hear from them, like we heard from the tattooed guy. Of course I’m not your editor, and even if I were, I wouldn’t come close to dictating any of that. I’d just bring up those points for consideration. You’ve obviously done quite well as is. I’ve enjoyed your essay very much, both experiencing it and thinking about it, and I’m happy to add my congratulations.
hi Michael –
I think I may be unclear still on how you and I may perceive the area and it’s people differently -I don’t see it as dark and ominous at all..of course I do see loss – but I don’t see the people I photographed as being without color, quite the opposite..how many years ago did you leave? if you listen to the audio there is some street music there..the other music is more about my feeling/perspective..this really isn’t ABOUT yuppie encroachment, it is about the other who remain.
I’m sorry Erica, it is no doubt I who am communicating badly. I didn’t mean any of that as negative criticism. Mostly just observations on how people perceive and communicate the same things differently. That’s a big part of what makes art interesting.
no, no, it’s fine..onward tho :))
TOM,
I was just reading your exchange with David about your Bangkok essay…I tell you the one essay that I would like to see from you, the car wash essay you had done and that you shared with me when we were together in New York. Have you thought of sharing that one? I really loved that essay and hope you completed it and that we will get to see it someday on BURN….
Cheers,
Eric
ERICA,
Just saw your comment :):) I wish I could take some credit for having motivated you as your potential audience but I know that the toughest judge of all is yourself!!!! Having said that, I guess you always try harder to not disappoint your fans…. the young (actually not so young…) Espinosa has been a member of the McDonald fan club for quite a while now and once again was most impressed :):):). Your portraits have always been special but the new finding for me is that the “looser” street photographs were even better in my view!!!!
What is next now???? I am sure you will be working on getting this wonderful work published and this will keep you busy I am sure but, from a photographic “shooting” standpoint, do you plan to carry on further or is the “dark light of this nothing” coming to a natural end? Just wondering….
Take care.
Eric
PS: presume you were back in Ohio with the family for thanksgiving….who would have thought that I actually miss Cincinnati :):):)
Civi,
I am drinking a cup of green tea and preparing some nice torture for my little students – it is called white balance! Silly old Lord Kelvin is to blame…
Yeahhhhhh!
Reimar
White balance is easy! Just click “Auto” in ACR ;)
Eric – at the moment I am sending the burn link out to editors who may not have come over already…I have a couple of unprocessed rolls, but I think if I keep working on shooting this I should do some super8 filming. I’m not sure – will catch up with DAH and look at the book edit. All it takes is for me to be in the neighborhood and to fall in love with a person or a moment on the street and I’ll be hooked again. Very next is working on DEVELOP and then shooting family with my Brownie in Ohio. Pls don’t miss Ohio :)
ERICA,,
have we ever talked about Ohio?? i cannot remember…you know my little family album which i am re-printing now ..an edition of 15 (sold three already and i haven’t even done one yet)…shot that in Warren, Ohio…printed in the basement next to our coal fired heater..no joke..anyway, let’s talk your book when we meet soonest…
ERIC…
man, i feel now like i must have known you longer than i think…i remember when you were moving to Cinci and full of fear, now you are gone and miss it!! try skyping me one of these early mornings…i am really up early these days..jet lagged bkk….wander around my house at 3am ..even the cat does not want to play…
JIM..
i really enjoyed skyping with you…great to meet you, if not in person, at least face to face….i wish we could reproduce that Texas accent here on Burn…i will not blow your cover and tell everyone here you are actually quite cheerful, but surely that was the nature of our chat…cool…loved it…..i definitely plan to dial you in to our meeting in new york….counting on you..thanks…
cheers, david
DAH – I don’t think we have..what I really want to know is if you had a brownie hawkeye..that’s what I just bought to shoot Ohio, 1959 model. Found negs in the attic from this camera, family house and family camera, so i’m going back to shoot it 50 yrs later..
I want to buy your album.
ERICA…
first camera, a Roy Rogers box camera (Herbert camera company)…second camera, a Kodak Brownie Hawkeye (first film developed printed in my bedroom)…third camera, a Leica IIIF (what i used in Warren)…all of my early negatives from all those cameras are actually filed better than anything since..i started out right with early filing system, but all went to hell somewhere along the line….
DAVID,
Will try to catch you one morning this week if possible, if only to provide company :):) These cats are ungrateful the minute they are pregnant :):):)….In any case, catching up with you seems like a very good excuse to be late at work….:):):)
Cheers,
Eric
As for “loose” “tight”, I think “normal” 50mm forces one to compose more carefully and wait for that decisive moment more often. While, shooting with 35mm and anything wider is more friendly for that “loose” approach. Also, when shooting with 50mm there are much more calls for vertical compositions. I could be wrong because my experience of taking pictures is just a bit over 10 years. Interesting what Mr. Harvey and other people here think about this my impression. Strangely, I love that “normal” 50mm more than wide, even though wide is a more flexible focal lenght. Something wrong with me?:)
Jim,
true, true!
You know to some people this is a real enlightenment… At least I have a bit of fun since I always advocate to switch off the auto mode… plus I hope that my students will keep in mind that there is a difference between a 60 watt lightbulb and some overcast sky…
Jim, can you do me a favour and please send me a copy of your paper or weekend magazine? It is more of a curiosity thing that I have thought about these days. My intrest is in the layout, choice of images and print. I am searching for some papers with a really nice layout. So far the Glasgow Sunday Herald is my absolute favourite. If you ever get one of those in your hands, it is an eye opener – well it used to be some years ago… And believe it or not “Mlada Fronta” in Prague does a hell good job as well – okay some years have passed since I have been to Prague… The paper I work for does a good job all right, but nothing extraordinary. Maybe it is my old fashioned sentimentailty and my blurred memory, but I feel the papers used to look more exciting in the good old days. So if by chance you know a paper that has great images plus nice layout – please let me know. Hm, I wonder if I ever had the New York times in my hands… Of course I will send you a German paper in exchange! No joke.
My address is in the contact part of my web page.
That would be nice and I would really appreciate this. Honestly!
Good night from Europe!
Reimar
Erica, last thing I’ll mention since you brought it up. I wondered where I came up with “dark and ominous.” I hadn’t thought it out real well at that point and on further consideration agree it’s not a good way to describe the overall mood of the piece. Now that I think about it, I suspect that feeling came from the picture of the black birds against the winter sky near the front of the essay. I don’t know if black birds against a winter sky is a universal archetype for dark and ominous, but certainly in western arts and literature it’s often a cue that there are dark and ominous things to come.
michael, point taken, but if you could have been there while I was trying to get the shot you might only associate the shot with a certain levity and lightness..me in the freezing cold begging the birds to return and lift again while jumping up and down in place saying ‘fly!’ over and over…and my soaring joy each time they took flight and hovered ever so briefly :)
ANTHONY RZ..
the 50 is a great lens…my occasional foray into long lens photography is with the 50…i do not know if it lends itself more to verticals, but yes when it was my only lens as a youngster, i did shoot more verticals come to think of it…the 50 requires great control to be loose…if you can get everything in, it works really well…i only really went to a 35 when i started shooting color…the slower asa/iso with color dictated for me anyway the 35 because i always had to work wide open…pre-focusing with a 50 means you need faster film so you can stop down a bit, whereas i could pre-focus with the 35 and still “make it” wide open…sometimes now i will take a day and just work with the 50 only…but then, i get lazy and go to the 35 or really lazy and go to the 28…..
cheers, david
whaddyamean you use the 28 when you are really lazy? how so?
ERICA…
well, life for me is just easier with the 28 on a full frame 35mm camera…over the 35 or particularly the 50…easier to get all the elements together flowing nicely..more elements possible….layering…easier to pre-focus….now with the 6×7 however i work only with the 80, which is the same as the 50 on a 35mm camera…with this i only want the 80, but i am shooting a different type of picture…i do different things in 6×7..maybe less layered, a bit more pulled back and environmental…for some reason i have not the same desire to go wide with the 6×7…just doesn’t seem right…but, i do not know why..
Mr. Harvey, thank you. Your answer was really useful for my contemplations about the subject.
Reimar, have you checked out Newseum? I use it to keep up with front pages.
http://www.newseum.org/TODAYSFRONTPAGES/
David, I’ve been working on that Texas accent for 59 years. Glad I got it right! :)
Very nice chatting with you to, face to face.
DAH –
so you prefer the result of the 35 to the 28 for you usually because you are challenged to get all the flow together in a more succinct way?
Tho I only ever used the 28 till months ago I feel like it is a greater challenge cause things can sneak it that are not intended..
ERICA…
yea, i can see how you could view it that way….funny how we all see things…if i could get everything into a 50 i would…i like the compression…28 easier but background often lost in space and too sharp…35 best compromise…get everything in, but background slightly out wide open which i like…yes, i do prefer the 35 overall because to me the pictures then look “lens less” ..98% of my work is with the 35..viewer is totally unaware of “lens”…life through your eyes looks like a 35 i think…
Never really settled on 35’s. Always a 50 and a 24, two bodies. 645/6×6 its the 80 all the way.Like you say david its a different type of work with the larger formats, opened up a bit and the 80 suits well.
Starting to get more together on the speakers corner project, should be ready to edit(submit??) by mid jan.
opinions/feedback???
http://www.photoshelter.com/gallery/SPEAKERS-CORNER/G0000OP_np439Qx0
running it as a slide show seems to work best.
PEACE
john
JOHN…
i am going to have to look in the morning…a wave of sleepiness just washed over me….on bkk time but when i was there on nyc time and well, i have no idea what time it is…and the short days just make me sleepy anyway…peace bro
Always was partial to the ricoh GR1……28mm 400iso, point and shoot, all that one had to worry about was what to shoot.
Cool. May come over to NYC for this december thing. Somewhere to crash for a couple days???? :)
Another O’Mara diversion:
Something just happened to me that everyone should think about.
I just read that Chief Raymond Smith, passed away over the
Thanksgiving holiday. He was my electrician. No matter the
task, a bathroom exhaust fan or service upgrade, Raymond was there.
I never made a picture of him. I had the best damn electrician in
Northwest Georgia! Hell, I had the retired Fire Chief working
on my home. That’s as safe as you can get. ALS was making
him unsteady so I learned to “make up” the connections in the junction
boxes. He always apologized for the trembling hands.
We need to remember the folks around us. Photographers can
always do it best if they pay attention. Perhaps if I look in my
archive… Sometimes it just gets personal.
DAH,
Enjoyed reading that rare piece of tech talk from you.
I can’t relate to images with enormous depth of field because to me it makes sense that the further away something is the less it should be in focus. That’s how my eyes see the world and you know me…always wanting photographs to look “real.”
Hey all.
Sorry, but I do love gear talk I have to admit.
David, If you are using an 80 on 6×7, the field of view is closer to about 40mm on a full frame 35mm camera.
I think our preferences, and what feels comfortable, has more to do with depth of field than field of view, (how wide)
Like you, for my personal work, I love the 35mm on a full frame camera, digi or film. However, when using my digi cameras with smaller sensors, (love my canon rebels), my little 28mm 2.8, which has the full frame equivelent field of view of a 45mm does almost what you describe, give me a slightly out of focus background.http://www.pbase.com/glafleur/image/114402938 This gallery was shot with the 28 and my Rebel XS.
I can’t wait for affordable full frame digi, which is no doubt coming. I use full frame cameras for work, but they are too heavy and bulky to carry around for personal work. Here is my 5dmk11 beside my lovely little Pentax S1a. http://www.pbase.com/glafleur/image/117686412 I’m waiting for a full frame digi in the Pentax size body.
I also adore point and shoot cameras, you just have to wrap your head around the almost infinite depth of field, especially at the wider end. Kinda like looking through that Leica M viewfinder, everything is sharp.
Eric, I don’t know, they were good I think, a week-long assignment published with good feedback, but maybe just, not quite, and I don’t want to settle, never settle …. David saw them and I got the impression they fell a little short for him … but the next day was chocolate ferry hula hoop day so all was not lost :)) Thank you.
JIMMY,
My man …Always a fun …
REIMAR,
once a teacher…always a teacher…keep the white balance on…
MICHAELW,
no worries…BURNIANS are strong cookies…
EMCD,
if you do that kinda of work with migraines…I can’t imagine what you can do without them…
ERIC,
be ready to be skyped…:)))
TUMBLEWEED TOM,
what’s the title of your book…I am waiting…
KATIE FONSECA,
I am waiting…
POMARA,
“We need to remember the folks around us.”you are in our heart…Chief Raymond Smith send message to our SPACECOWBOY …and he said just to
double check the main circuit…there might be a shortage…hmmm…well, he sends good energy…
I LOVE YOU too…
MR.HARVEY,
it seems that BURNIANS are eager for more…Tech talk…
they need some enlightment….hmmmm…tech talk, tech talk…
BURNIANS…just a reminder…WHAT NOT TO LOVE …
Enlightenment …
HAPPY 1st of the month …
strange – my pref on 6×6 is 80mm as well.. i found some 6×6 slide from working early on in nightclubs.. lovely things.. lovely.
any road.. regardless of depth, for my indoor with-flash work it has to be wide in order to get close to people, pre-focus accurately and to get close to people.
did i mention getting close to people?
that´s an important one in busy spaces..
35 is the outside limit unless it´s day-lit and outside.
20mm average..
15 is if´s really bustling.
if it is outdoors a prime 50 and 35 are superb.. i have always leaned towards the wide end though
done
d
new 100eyes issue this morning.
http://www.100eyes.org/the-american-dream/the-american-dream/
John…
About the speakers corner project:
5, 6, 8, 11!, 12, 16, 18, 20!!, 21, 22!, 24. 25!, 26!!!, 29!
the very best ones for me are 20 and 26.
I think I have a couple of “free hugs” pictures from Athens on Tri-x that are waiting to be developed… there is a backload of at least 25 films at the moment…
THODORI,
how is Cyprus …mate??? I wanna see the free hugs from Grecoland …hmmm…:)))
JOHNYG,
the …incitement and the beretman…are my favorites…( I am just a civilian)
LOVE TO ALLLLLLLL
I have been shooting 99 % of the time only with 35mm lens. It does not matter what type of camera I have used I always come back to the same focal lenght really quickly. Actually, maybe this is one of the reason why I am at the moment absolutely totally bored at photography and taking my usual pictures. I think one of the easiest ways of changing your style is to change the equipment. It’s easy to force you to shoot differently if you throw away your D700 and pick up 4×5…or something.
DAH and everyone else, I guess most of you (if not all) have had the feeling that you are absolutely fed up with photography, yes? How did you get back to life from that feeling? For the past 6 months, I have had maybe three four times “wow!” feeling of something… Sally Mann documentary that came from tv…and something else. In Perpignan, I walked like a zombie through all of those exhibitions and now I remember only Eugene Richards’ exhibition… I love photography, but I am soooo bored at pictures. I do not see the idea why would I for example continue taking my passers-by street photos… Who cares about pictures of strangers?
I dunno what Im even talking about anymore.
Well, Petri, there is always badminton or shuffleboard.
Everything is boring. Everything has been shot to death. But why are you shooting photos? What is interesting to folks who look at your photos is not strangers on the street, but how you see strangers on the street. I can’t see the world the way you do. Show me how you see it.
GORDON…
i stand corrected that the 80 on the 6×7 is in fact closer to a 40 on a 35mm camera…no wonder i find it perfect…i think also that the 6×7 format, not having the same aspect ratio as the 35 format, does not make me want to go wider…wide looks strange to me in the 6×7 aspect ratio…i also do use a Fuji 6×9 with the wide fixed lens for some family portraits, large groups in close etc., and this does really work well as a wide look and feel simply because of the aspect ratio….make any sense?
JOHN GLADDY…
hey my friend, if you show up in NYC for our meeting of course you have a place to crash…..i will take good care of you..well, that is if sleeping on an air mattress is taking care of you!!…in any case, you are most most welcomed…last year we had a three or four day marathon that was a combo of lots of work and lots of fun…you must know me by now, i would not have it any other way…please come…
cheers, david
Petri,
Just came from your site. Very nice work there. And Yes, I’ve felt what you’re feeling. Got out of it by changing what I normally shoot. Maybe you could borrow or rent a nice 200mm lens and spend some time at some parks or rivers or other natural areas and avoid people all together for a time. Shake things up.
BURNIANS,
what will you shoot if you have been informed that you have only one month to go …
P.S …you will BURN your cameras, drink and be happy…shoot your genitalia in your backyard…
You know, Civi, if I had only one month more to live I’d do exactly what I’m doing now. Folks who would do something radically different to what they do every day need to reassess their priorities. What not to love?
a month to go?
50% sorting out my archive and 50% shooting my degenerative illness.
petri
be obsessed with something outside of photography & photographers and photograph that thing to excess..
DAH and everyone else, I guess most of you (if not all) have had the feeling that you are absolutely fed up with photography, yes? How did you get back to life from that feeling?
———————————————————————————-
go to magnum.com and download all podcasts..
:)
only one month to go?
easy : i would turn into scientology, become a Thetan 7…
and go live in Venus…
what not love?
(laughing…:)
…why Venus?
well remember that scientific “fact” that men are from Mars
and the ladies from Venus?
;)
On Sunday I finished my new 8×10” pinhole camera with a curved film plane…
Here is the second test exposure…
http://www.tzalavras.com/Random%20pics%20for%20Web/Tzalavras_Nicosia_8x10Pinhole_001.jpg
If I look to be a bit blurry is because this was a 3 minute exposure!
Thodoris..:)
Excellent…!!!!
( sent u an email )
Petri Uutela,
I think all photographers once in a while have to go through this… I think the best is to take a break and forget about shooting for a while. Relax, then just find your time and once again take a look (not in a hurry) at works of such great artists of XX century such as: Lartigue, Bresson, Winogrand, Robert Doisneau, David Alan Harvey, Antoine D’Agata etc. etc. And sooner or later you will be back and fresh… if not, this would be even better for you and for the art of photography in general… Good pictures come effortlessly. Sometimes we try to go away from the origins of photography, very often we want to go beyond the medium of photography… but photography is just photography – it’s life… and for some people life itself is boring and banal. I agree that, in the photograph, the stranger on the street could be boring and banal, but Bresson has shown us that it isn’t necessary the case… It’s two dimensional art, just the view of something – isn’t enough… And finally, the quality, not the quantity that matters. And I think the closer we keep ourselves to the roots and origins of the medium, the more chances we will be able to produce something that affects the spectator so we are understood as photographers. These are just my random, spontaneous thoughts, and I could be terribly mistaken. They are from my modest experience though.
Interesting what maestro David Alan Harvey thinks about this, and how he deals with such problems, if he ever had them at all.
David. Looks like I get into JFK at 11pm on the 9th, which means hitting brookly by about midnight’ish. Anyone gonna be about or should I find a hotel for the night????
John
thodoris..
now you´re talking..
here is one from a crisp box, made with curved film plane and 2 x 10 by 8 b&w sheets.
it´s amazing the quality and depth of field possible.. although mine is not really a pinhole since i made a lens and apeture for it.. obscura really.. 5 min exposure f/162 if i remember right.
going to do some more here in bergen soon..
http://bophoto.co.uk/commercial/commercial/gallery/commercial/lg/001.jpg
civi,
if i had one month to live, ill play the piano.
give my point and shoots to the kids.. and extra batteries.
its so interesting how toys look like up close…
how fun the pictures look like when they’re turning the cameras on themselves..
and how everything seems so big and bigger than life from the carpet vantage point.
David B…
That’s an excellent picture…
At the moment I’m quite busy with other stuff but, can you provide a link or two about lens making?
david b..
jee…another amazing inventor in burn…
if i had your skills i would never buy another camera in my life..
(ok maybe an M9..but thats about it..)
big hug
bravo
i´ll dig out the details from 10 years ago this evening.. your´s is very much better than my first attempt..
i believe it was a 0.5mm drill bit, with which i drilled through a square of aluminum (a coke can)..
the film plane was about 16cm from the apeture and the lens, (the lens was a magnifying glass)
i found the focal length of the magnifying glass with a ruler and the sun (to focus the smallest hot-spot on the ground).. that was how i found the the 16cm i used for the film plane..
the camera was an old ´dorritos´ crisp box..
i´ll have a look when TC has been put to bed as i know i have the old sheet of maths in a box..
the tricky thing was exposure times and reciprocity failure.. but your snap is so good i guess you have your head around that.
:ø)
okay – give me a few hours and i´ll post all the info i have.
d
Panos..
you would buy another camera – believe me :ø)
as rewarding as the first ones were, once i had some good ones, (which sold to a local hotel for the lobby artwork) i burn´t the damn thing :ø)
main reason for wanting to do it again is that i don´t have a useful camera right now, as as a way of getting the funds for a new one i´m going to try the same trick..
cardboard box photos, tote them around hotels and the tourist board and try for some wonga.
d
PETRI…
take a deep breath…photography is a relationship like any other…it must be nurtured….i am not bored with your work…you are up now on essays….love it…
cheers, david
PETRI –
no way you are even allowed to be bored with photography with the quality you produce my friend… check the BURN home page right now…
cheers
a
okay was wrong..
the aperture was a 2mm drill bit, drilled through aluminum square..
to work out aperture –
F#=v/d
d is the size of aperture,
v is the focal length.
an easy way of doing this is to use the same as i did.-
a 2mm drill bit..
200mm focal length of magnifying glass (to make it easy)..
so aperture is 200 divided by 2 = f#/100
from back of the lens to curved film plane is 200mm along the length, curved from the back of the lens..
estimated the paper to 25 asa..
5 min exposure and bob is your uncle.
i might do a blog post about this..
i´ve not gone into hyperfocal distance, or closest focus in other words..
DAH, Anton…
I *too* am bored with my photography… where is *my* front page??
(kidding in both accounts…:))
David B…
Thanks…
this wasn’t my first barbecue though… (like with most things in my life) I’ve been doing pinhole on-and-off for quite some time… this one is just the first one of this size and type…
DAH –
do you have dates for the planning gathering in NYC? I’d so like to be there, and meet mr John Gladdy too…am on the road a lot right now, and I could try to book flights to be around if I knew when exactly.
CIVI
my dear yes about your book
PETRI –
you are not alone…
PETRI..
still looking at your work..
but plz pretty plz…
can u email me Tuomas’s email…
i loved his music and i want blah blah blah….
to work with him somehow…
innerspacecowpanos@mac.com
( sorry i forgot to post my address )
thodoris.
there are some nutts pinholes around..
peole have used mouths, wheelie bins.. lorries.. alol that jazz..
we made one in collage with the student – a whole room with pinhole in the curtain, which projected the outside road upsidedown on the white wall..
great fun..
lenses are really easy to add and they make a difference with sharpness.. the thing is to spend a little on the magnifying glass.. but then again.. people have used bags of water instead :ø)
BIG MAN GLADDY IN NEW YORK?!
gwan john.. would have loved to join you..
enjoy.
Hey thanks everyone for your replys to my question… Whatta timing since passers by is now online :) I will comment more later.
Anton, I dont know if you got my e-mail, but is the aspect ratio correct in passers-by? At least with this one laptop pictures are wider than they should be…
Panos, sure, I will pass info to Tuomas.
Petri
a favorite was from my mate hansi – he made a wineglass pinhole.. and the shutter was red wine..
drink it empty to open the shutter and pour another to close it ..
he made some genius cameras..
David B…
Never thought of using a magnifying glass in a pinhole camera somehow… thanks for bringing this up… I will surely look into incorporating this in the next design… as for anyone who would like to try his hand with pinhole but don’t want to spend the time to deal with the math, here is one of the best calculators on the net:
http://www.mrpinhole.com/calcpinh.php
PETRI
shoot thru it…
who cares?
YOU do,
and thats enough…
nurture you…
and
the photographs will follow….
*
I have to constantly remind/ask myself why I’m telling this story…
what drives me…
you are right,
who fucking cares?!?!?!
but when I dig deeper and really ask myself
what it is I’m curious about…
why I need to tell this story…
It somehow helps
and
gives me clarity…..
and
I care again…..
and
thats enough……
**
Petri…
I forgot to mention that I visited your site when you posted your comment earlier, and I really liked the work you show there.
As for losing your interest in photography… as long as you find yourself dreaming of pictures (either asleep or awake)… as long as your heart skips a bit every time you manage to capture “IT” (whatever “it” might be for you)… as long as you get goose bumps whenever you discover an amazing picture (or a whole body of work) of someone you never heard of before… you have nothing to fear.
Following up on last weeks brief discussion on digital readers,tablets, etc I thought this announcement would
be of interest to those considering the technology.
Trying to catch up – haven’t even had time to let the new essays settle in, but both are making the wheels turn, thank you burn…
Cathy – sorry this is quick and I still need to pm you about the other, sorry..you asked “Wondering where the fine line between “premature” and “mature” (or ready to show) is…I will look forward to hearing what Erica has to say but I imagine she was extremely discriminating in who she asked for feedback.”
briefly – I think we all need our go-to people…I had dear dear friends wanting to see my progress but I just couldn’t, it felt like you say, premature and like it might crack or something if handled too soon…so it is for me more about certain eyes at certain times, for example jason eskenazi is a close friend (pls anyone who doesn’t know his work Wonderland check it out, book soon to be reprinted) but more importantly he understands what I am after and I understand what he is after…Gene Richards is of course a huge inspiration with his Dorchester Days so I actually worked to have something ready to show him when I knew I would see him at LOOK…but like I said awhile back to Panos when he was getting antsy that I was not sharing, when it comes to sharing something of my self with someone else, i want to give the best I can, like a cake..I wouldn’t give it to you underbaked, ideally it would be frosted and decorated, but I may let my guard down and serve it to you fresh out of the oven…
“you my friend are best loose…your landscapes are particularly evocative in this way..what are normally considered fodder for straight, you shoot loose…yet, very very descriptive…..always anxious to see more…”
David, been thinking about this. Thank you for the thoughts … I don’t think the elephant photo would be considered a loose photo but taken very, very loose … so yeah, I tend to overthink unless I just go instinctual …
I have been doing a lot of landscapes lately in my backyard simply because I have been locked away working from home with other non-photo projects and I live in the backwoods. I’ve been either going way loose or the other extreme. I wish I could Skype but my internet connection does not allow (satellite is not bad on the download but upload is painfully slow). I could drop my pants here for all to see I suppose, I don’t know though … would hate to come up short.
erica. I was under the impression it was around the 10th. Anyways I am flying in on the 9th and will be around for about four days. Maybe you could show me around????
john.
I’ve just been given 6-36exp rolls of Fuji provia 400 and 1 roll of fujichrome 400. It is long outdated but had been in a freezer until last year. Free to a good home. email me glafleurphoto@shaw.ca
Petri;
Sometimes if you have a “block” or are a bit down in enthusiasm simply going out to shoot something completely different, with no expectations or self-imposed burdens, works well. Or; just go out and shoot some random stuff, have some fun and “wing it”!
I’ve just spent a few weekends away from shooting the night club scene and concentrating on some “country kids” stuff. I’ve been shooting the night scene for around 11 months now and felt a little “night-clubbed out” I also felt that I was repeating too many of the images and needed a change of scenery to freshen up a bit.
But mostly it was a feeling that I may be limiting the story by pursuing the goal of having a music thread running through the essay. The original reason for the music theme was because the idea was sparked by music, and I’ve always thought that music is a great “common denominator” that brings people from disparate backgrounds together.
But now when I look at the party images and the best 4 or 5 of the “country kids” images they seem like different stories! A bit of a conundrum I think. Any ideas would be gratefully received :-)
I’ve been dying to view Erica’s essay, but even on broadband the essay stalls with 2.42 to go? Why? I don’t know, I’ve tried everything to fix it? Anyone have any ideas for a computer Luddite like me?
Regarding lenses; if I’m photographing “people images” then it’s a 24mm prime (36mm) 90% of the time. However in the cramped conditions in the music bar I usually use the 12-24mm because there is not a whole lot of working room. It also gives me the option of going wider if needed (18mm full frame equivalent) when the crowd goes a bit crazy and I’m working very close. But I always have it set on 24mm and only go wider every now and then.
David B. Have you looked at the Holga 120 WPC? A wide angle pinhole (6×9 with the option of 6×12). Costs about US$50. I’m thinking of getting one soon for the skate parks.
Cheers
erica, my recollection is the same as john’s….sometime after the Mikes opening for B, B&B…
Still tempted to come up for the long weekend – if so will get in on the 10th…
Also…is anyone else planning on the Miami workshop?
back after a long holiday weekend with no net access except on the phone….and of course the obligatory work catch up….
good light, all….
a.
JOHN…ERICA
the Mike Young opening at Powerhouse is on the 10th, so i will definitely be up for that…after party my place of course…i know Mike would appreciate all who can come…it will be quite an event with TModel Ford performing in person as well…night to remember and a good hang for all of us….this would be the best time for our meeting i think..no not at the after party, i mean within that time frame..like the 11th or 12th…Anton and i need one day to work totally alone…then another day for all who want to share…and a social gathering to follow…11, 12, 13, 14?? what you think? John, sure you can handle this my man?
hmmm, posting here and reviewing later can sometimes be similar to reviewing one’s archive. What seems like a clever idea at the time can appear a bit crude later … except with the archive it isn’t already published worldwide.
or rather … “seemed” … bloody hell :))
Ross,
I generally find music dilutes the impact of the pictures because it’s so powerful in itself.
It also means there’s far less room for my own thoughts and interpretations.
A silent series i can click and pause on would be my choice of viewing though I can understand the feeling of wanting to expand and control the experience.
“John, sure you can handle this my man?” …well I am getting on a bit, but Im sure I can keep up :)
so is anyone gonna be around about midnight on the 9th??
JOHN…
me…call or text….will have a bunk for you
Vicky;
Thanks for the comment but I don’t think that I explained very well. When I said music theme I actually meant music being a photographic theme rather than an actual sound track. Sorry about that, but thanks for your input :-)
Cheers
oh, my mistake :)
in that case i guess the limits depend on the choice of music you make.
Vicky; No worries! By the way; you’ve got some nice work on your site…
Thanks, Ross!
And Vicky, a big thanks for checking out my Blue Mirror project and for your affirming comment about it. Can’t recall ever enjoying working on a project as much as this one. Nine months into it and I’m more excited than ever!
Speaking of which, does anyone else have trouble focusing on an older project — especially one you’re trying to get published — while you’re in the middle of a new one? As could be expected, my favorite part of any project is actually taking the pics. I even enjoy editing/sequencing and creating a book maquette. But this business of trying to find a publisher and getting pre-orders? Not exactly my cup of tea. Thank god I have a mentor like DAH to help me through this part of the process. I’d be lost trying to do it on my own.
Patricia
DAVID B
I just read your post about the box camera you created and saw the photo you made with it. That is SO COOL!!!! Your students are very lucky to have a teacher like you. Reimar’s too. Makes me wish I’d taken photography in school…
Patricia
Ross
If you email me I can send you another link to the essay that might work for you. Also am going to give some thought to your question, but am curious as to what was the subject matter in the successful country kids shots.
John, DAH
Had to book a flight today and sadly won’t be anywhere near NYC during the exhibit / gathering time frame. I have lots of ideas tho, but I can talk to you I guess another time.
PATRICIA…
it is always difficult to push “old” material forward…all of us are always started on something “new” when in fact to finish any project requires dealing with it after it is “old” in our minds….this takes serious resolve…as i think i said to you once before, the hardest part is in getting the idea, and the seriously hardest part is shooting, and the truly hardest part is editing, and the very hardest part is getting it published…you have the sweetest way of leaning on me my dear!! do not worry, we will get it..skype in the morning…
hugs, david
Publishing is the bogey man , other than that I complete as I am used to exhibiting.I have some stuff that takes years, others a month or two, some in a minute, deadlines are the easiest to deal with. Then there is a thing called finance……………..
PAT
perseverance……
force yourself…
keep moving it…
keep believing…..
and
most IMPORTANTLY
keep shooting….
:) :) :)
david
about my B/W comment to Petri.. I guess with the digital world, people don’t have to think in terms of B/W vs. color… You just switch it if you want…. But for me, when I made the transition from B/W to color, it was HUGE!!!! So different, a different way of seeing….. I started noticing things differently with color…. So with people just switching to B/W, I guess they do it cuz they can, with a click of the button….. But for me, its my vision… I ‘see’ things differently when I know I’m shooting B/W (I still shoot film:)… Hard to explain in words.. But I guess I’m just interested if people still see in B/W or color, or if people just shoot regardless and think its the image that matters, not B/W or color?!? ***
wendy, “.. I guess I’m just interested if people still see in B/W or color..”
Yes, guilty of that.. and even worse, I “see” in format too, meaning I take different pictures if I use a different camera.
“.. I guess I’m just interested if people still see in B/W or color..”
I sometimes see in B/W but it comes mostly with the processing. I switch and compare. One advantage of shooting digital. With my Ricoh GR digital, I like the pictures more after switching to digital, especially higher ISOs.
There was a time, where we did a little project with friends. We were shooting randon CD Covers.
During that time, I saw squares everywhere and composed the frame accordingly.
Today I went to the post office to ship some ouzo(lots) and some olive oil(lots)…(probably I scared them …with all the bottles…hmmm…)
they turned me down …
it is considered HAZARDOUS material , extremely fragile and dangerous…
I am just a civilian …they told me …and I have no authority to ship that products outside from Greece…
Post office people gave me some contact numbers in Athens ,NY,LA,NZ,NORWAY, COSTA RICA,FRANCE,GERMANY…to make arrangements…
Therefore ,MR.HARVEY, SOCRATES, TOM YOUNG,HAIK,KATIE,POMARA,LASSAL,DAVIDB…you have to wait until I find the way…
cause …I will find the way… I LOVE YOU ALL
P.S PANOS, the Tell it as it is…this is the moustaches territory :(((
ouzo.. highly flammable perhaps.. certainly hazardous material..
will have to come collect from greece next year.
what not to drink?
O
DAVIDB,
WHAT not to drink ???
BURN the flammables …hihihi…
where is everyone ???
I dedicate the today’s FULL moon to all the shooters here and there …
and to my beloved KATIE and myGRACIE and TORCAPA, our PATRICIA,TOM,PANOS,HAIK,THODORIS,JOHNYV,
JIMMY,EMCD,JOHNG,SIDNEY,LASSAL,AUDREY,ANDREA, KERRY,ROSSY,IMANTS,POMARA,CHRIS,GORDONL………………………………………………………………………………………EVA,MARGARITA, LAURA, STEPHANIE, GEORGE, ASHLEY…
SERANIA, ALEXANDROS, MICHAELK,SOPHIA,ANNIE…………………………….I don’t wanna tedious
BUT PETRI…
P.S When I am bored …with myself… I am going silent…
tick-talk, tick-tech, tick-tock…the time is …
I dedicate the “CIRCLE” moon ,of course, to the BURN and CIRCUS… generators…MR.HARVEY and ANTON…KERRY ,MIKEC…
WNTL !!!
and to AKAKY,MIKER,TOMALTY,ABELE,PETE,SEAN,CATHY,…HERVE…I love you …
going silent …
LAST NOTE…Highlight of yesterday’s postings…
“…you can handle this my man?” …”I could drop my pants here for all to see I suppose, I don’t know though … would hate to come up short…”
I am sorry…I just copy and paste …WntLaugh!!!…silents
It’s hysterical David! And always refreshing to see something that makes me laugh, and sets me off on a thought journey too! Thank you.
Re: Simone. I faced the same problem two years ago. I suspect the icecream parlour that passed ‘The Cat With No Name’ onto me, KNEW she was pregnant. It was a beautiful experience to see five kittens from the day they were born, but they grew up a wild bunch together with a puppy that I was told was in danger of being eaten alive.
You’ll probably be best to find homes for the kittens!
Wishing you a wonderful and safe journey.
Jenny
WENDY…
i am the same..if i start thinking in b&w, and i am shooting digi, then i change the camera setting to b&w mode and i start thinking in b&w and i preview in b&w…i am trying to remember if i have ever converted a color picture to b&w later, and i cannot think of one…but, i am sure that is just because of a lifetime of having to choose one or the other before shooting with film….for me the thinking process is different from one to the other, but for others i am sure it is not..if the skies opened up and God spoke to me saying “David, you must choose one or the other my son”, or if stranded on an island and had only one medium, i think i would choose to be stranded with 20 rolls of Tri-X…i think i could say everything i want to say with photography with 20 rolls of Tri-X and a couple of friendly natives…
cheers, david
Think bnw……….. no colour………. better write some colour in http://www.etrouko.com.au/imants.htm
.
.
I’ll try to skype you tomorrow David, or your tonight …… late here, catcha
Since we use a mixture of color and B&W in our newspapers, I usually have the camera set up to shoot RAW+jpeg with the jpegs in B&W so the preview on the camera is always B&W. Even when color is the goal, I still think in B&W. Too many years shooting Tri-X for newspapers to ever completely switch mental gears. When I shoot film for personal stuff, it’s always B&W, though.
…SPEAKING of B&W…
here is a “color” link from another norwegian heavy metal band,
i shot couple nights ago in the club Gagarin in athenes…
( and i hate heavy metal..i really really hate it, unless is Motorhead )
all photos with a 28mm
http://picasaweb.google.com/innerspacecowpanos/TrailsOfTearsJpgs?authkey=Gv1sRgCPnXmP6Ym9XX2AE#slideshow/5410620986003737474
Remember last week i was talking about the legendary garage band from Oregon..
the
“DEAD MOON” ??
well their new name is
“PIERCED ARROWS”..
i also photographed them in athens about a week ago..
( same 28mm zeiss lens of course )
click here”
http://picasaweb.google.com/innerspacecowpanos/DEADMOONPIERCEDARROWSJpgs?authkey=Gv1sRgCLPPlZ3k5KmSbQ#slideshow/5410633363909790178
“DEAD MOON”…
the legendary garage band from Oregon in athens..
with a new drummer and a new name:
“PIERCED ARROWS”..
click below
http://picasaweb.google.com/innerspacecowpanos/DEADMOONPIERCEDARROWSJpgs?authkey=Gv1sRgCLPPlZ3k5KmSbQ#slideshow/5410633363909790178
Talk about the cult of celebrity.
I am a huge fan of Nick Knight and his work, but check this out “Nick Knight is live streaming a photoshoot everyday until the 20th
December!”
http://www.showstudio.com/project/fashionrevolution/live
Surely it is the final product that is of interest.
I suppose it does give an insight huge amounts of photographic dead time when shooting in a studio.
enjoy, I hpe at least you get some action and not an empty set.
Cheers
ian
yeah…
tri x
processed with D 76,
what not to love?!?
***
re: “But I guess I’m just interested if people still see in B/W or color”
yes, absolutely.
also it seems to me that when someone is predominately a color shooter, if they want strong bw work, they really need to wipe their mental palette and reset their vision, whereas someone who is predominately a bw shooter can be thinking in bw but have a good chance of having decent color work arise. of course, all the better if the bw shooter can think in color and use it to his advantage. point is that many color shooters rely on the color and and the structural bones are lost when they move to bw.
erica,
I loved what you said in regards to my comment with your essay, ‘I went 1 block away and there was a color world’ I know exactly what you mean….. It seems the digital world has taken this away from photogs, or there is less thinking going on, or something…. Interesting that I’ve come into film (the medium) in the digital age… I couldn’t imagine editing with reels of film… Now I have final cut and tape is cheap… although p2 cards aren’t!!!! Anyway, glad to know there are others that ‘see’ the world with their own box of crayons… xox
ladies and gents…
the best GREEK GARAGE BAND of all times
meet the
“LAST DRIVE”
http://picasaweb.google.com/innerspacecowpanos/LASTDRIVEJpegs?authkey=Gv1sRgCPykraj_oanL4wE#slideshow/5410657179534444130
ERICA…
i do disagree with you on this one my friend or perhaps misinterpret your comment…i have seen very few serious b&w shooters who could move successfully to color…color is one very very hard thing to master….i have been trying trying and it still has me baffled most of the time….you need structural bones for both…the problem with color is that when it does rarely succeed then some folks think it is BECAUSE of the color when it fact the photographer has most likely overcome the fact it is in color…color in and of itself is an additional problem, rarely a solution…i have seen so so many color pictures that are so so in color and then when converted to b&w suddenly they look just fine even ethereal….color ruins more pictures than it helps….rarely does it go the other way…with everyone shooting mostly color all the time with digi there is illusion of a certain color “success” that has lowered the finest standards i think for judging color photography…there is lots of good b&w out there, and very little good color imo….look at all the entries for Burn for example..so so many convert to b&w because it simply has a better chance of “looking good”..
cheers, hugs, david
WENDY…
yes yes..working on my darkroom as we speak….
something to think about with CIRCUS…
**
The Last Drive -It’s all over now babe blue
Laughing…I knew you would write something like this..
I do see your point, but that is why I wrote “decent color work”..by no means do I mean that your average bw shooter can make color work that sings like yours lickitysplit..but to my eyes, so much color falls apart when converted to bw, falls dead, because color was the ONLY thing holding it together in the first place, at all..but then it wasn’t really successful to start, an illusion, I agree. I know many think they have a better chance of making something look better once converted, but 99% of the time it screams to me CONVERTED! even if the image is structurally improved. Much of my distaste has to do with the digital aspects, it looks like a cheap imitation to me. I will admit I had moments of accepting color neg printed on Panalure, but even then, it never sat entirely right, sort of like looking at someone who has a lot of “work done” (face lift or whatever). I’m a purist for bw, I need the real deal, I need the SILVER.
starting out in black and white was purely a pragmatic decision for me – cheaper and able to dev n print my own..
colour or black and white, i tend to think in shapes, layers and moments much more than the colour i am seeing, or the textures and shadows.. certain photos i know will be better in one or the other when i shoot them, and so i shoot colour film all the time and leave the option open.. there are some very good ways of reproducing
having said that there is a simplicity to using bnw which i love, as when viewing photos it is much easier to blend.. coordinating colours is much more tricky i think.. my music work is certainly much easier to edit in bnw than colour.. although when shooting these days i don´t think in either, specifically..
but that wasn’t really what i was saying, was it?
I think if there is a lot of good bw out there it may be because it has been the choice for serious photogs, maybe these photogs are committing to it.
I think it may be harder to do successful color work, but I still feel that you can’t get something great by stripping away color. I think that great bw photogs see in bw. maybe if the photog only had color available, shot in color, but THOUGHT in bw, then it would be okay with me :)
‘but that wasn’t really what i was saying, was it?’
david b, i was replying to myself, not you :)
ERICA….
laughing back…i knew you would write something like this!!
let’s look at a few examples…Bruce Davidson is a good one…he did pull off Subway in color very successfully, but he never went back..he tried Central Park at first in color, then gave it up..he tried Chicago in color and it was a disaster..so for him, Subway is it, but i am sure it is his only…Gene Richards did do his latest book on the abandoned farm houses (name?) in color and it was good..but, i will bet he never goes back either unless he has a color assignment…Gene did that for Natgeo, so he had to shoot color, but i am sure it would have looked great, maybe better, in b&w…Salgado did do a couple of color stories for NYT magazine..go check em out…he ain’t going back….of the major b&w photographers i think Subway is the only example i can think of where a b&w photographer made the switch…you may think of others….oh yes, Mary Ellen Mark did do Faulkland Road in color…she never went back either…
i think i have mentioned this several times, but i did convert all of Divided Soul into b&w for the layout….to make sure color was NOT the subject……monochromatic is me even in color…my old master Goya had it right for color….
hmmm, Trent Parke? too early ;-))
YOUNG TOM…
i think of Trent as a color photographer…
a few new photographs in black & white on my website->PhotoBlog:
http://web.mac.com/victorbt/iWeb/Site/VICTOR%20BEN%20TZVI.html
DAH, practically i agree with u, but i think a more general explanation is that our perception Follows the Dominant elements of formation and what determines the content (be it graphic or discursive etc). for that matter for example, a graphic form will look more dramatic in b/w cause this is what determines the perception (and interpretation afterwards to be more correct) of the content (the graphic shapes), and the drama is stronger cause color does not disturb, or does not differentiate the various graphic elements. of course another example is that when those are color that WOW us (like surfaces etc), then this is the dominant element of content formation etc.
add to it the fact that b/w and color have some associations, some associate b/w with classic, others with romantic etc, color is raw, and feels contemporary and illustrative etc…
i think i also agree that alot with the issue of b/w photographer that can handle color with better chances, cause after all, to put it simple for a moment, b/w photographer already has the compositional intuitions, and to add/recognize color surfaces is not very difficult… a different mentatlity is another things though…
interesting … black and white was a midpoint for him?
DAH…
Yes, agreed..It is harder to do successful color work.
But :) a converted “just okay color photo” in my eyes only becomes a yucky surfaced excuse for a bw image. Maybe you’ll start to see lines and form and such that were concealed by poor color, but –
To make a great (not good) bw image, I think you have to see in bw…bw IS a form of color, done right.
maybe that is what I am trying to say.
There are images that can work in bw if shot in bw that would fall apart if shot in color. But to excel in bw you have to understand bw, in the same way that to excel in color you have to understand color.
I don’t know, isn’t it more about contrast(s) structurally, or the lack thereof, whether in black and white or color where some situations just won’t work for color? I completely understand the concurrent multiple frameworks necessary for color … I’m sure that’s oversimplistic but it’s what I look for …
DAVID BOWEN…ERICA
i think you know i am shooting both b&w and color neg film for Family Drive…a couple of weeks ago i got hard on myself and really looked at all of the best pictures for that project….90% were b&w..on the computer i converted some of the color to b&w to see how they looked…yup either better or the same..in other words, i could do the whole book in b&w instead of the mix i originally intended…
ironically, or maybe not, i never really made the switch to color in my mind..or, at least, it was a struggle to be as good in color as i was in b&w…..i did not take a single color picture until i was 30, which means all of my formative years were b&w years….
ok, i am loading up the Mamiya VII right now with Tri-X…..off to shoot….ahhh, so refreshing to just be thinking b&w…easier? well, yes frankly…no easier to make good photographs, but one less thing to think about for sure…
cheers, david
“bw IS a form of color, done right.”
huh, I tend to think of color as a form of black and white … which does seem odd i suppose …
Ha! you added this after I posted
“i think i have mentioned this several times, but i did convert all of Divided Soul into b&w for the layout….to make sure color was NOT the subject……monochromatic is me even in color…my old master Goya had it right for color….”
That IS what I am saying, that the converse is true for excellent BW. BW has to hold up despite it being BW.
ERICA…
agreed….i think!! fun to play though..right?
absolutely..
now go have fun and make some stellar images in any color :)
Wow, you all make it sound like color is a lot more difficult. I never really thought of it that way. Maybe so. Maybe it depends on what you’re trying to communicate.
I read on one of the links here that David teaches people to shoot concepts. Perhaps it’s easier to shoot more conceptual work in B&W? Last summer, for instance, I did a project in which I was essentially shooting a concept and after many test shots ended up doing it in B&W. In that case, the color overwhelmed the concept.
MICHAEL WEBSTER…
i think most serious photographers would agree that color is more difficult…or at least the ones who have really tried it….and of course it depends on the subject, the mood and predilection of the photographer etc etc….one thing for sure, it is not simply a matter of switching on the computer screen..sure, that works technically, but does not really work for the serious practitioner of either….concepts can be in either….i would really have to see your work to know if your color overwhelmed your concept since i do not know your project…
Wow, you all make it sound like color is a lot more difficult
hell yeahhhhh…
it is what it is..
B&W….is a little bit..kinda…hmmm..pretentious…
unless ONE is able to think and see B&W as erica said..
very rare though…
unless u print yourself then i dont think its possible to “think” in B&W…imo..
( exceptions though is part of the game )…
VICTOR…
i agreed with everything you said except for your last two sentences…adding color to the dominant composition, shapes , etc. quite literally changes those shapes in terms of how the eye moves, where is rests and why it stays there and what emotions it may alter…..and that is why it is so difficult..not so easy to simply add color to your theoretical composition imo…for sure, imo, the even great b&w photographer does NOT have a better chance to work in color..i.e. my examples of major photographers unable to work in color…but, give me your examples please….
i have only seen your b&w portraits, so i do not know your color work…please let me see
unless u print yourself then i dont think its possible to “think” in B&W
i mean u have to be able to read the density of the negative…to know your paper…
and expose accordingly…but lets be honest..
Techniques, are just another way to express one self..nothing good nothing bad…
its the photographers brain, the photogs connection..that does the trick…
PANOS…
yes, of course…can u skype in the morning? i want to finish our conversation…
I wonder how we would think of color if monochrome were not a fact of history but merely a stylistic choice. For a while, there were photographers and color photographers — color was the exception. Today, B&W is the exception.
Shooting in B&W today, to me, can seem pretentious, and yet there are photographers I admire whose work I can’t envision any other way. One reads all sorts of high-minded rationales for shooting in B&W (film) or converting to B&W (digital), but the rhetoric rarely matches the output. Good imagery doesn’t need an attached manifesto.
Do we admire B&W only because we have a tradition of B&W photography?
yes .. Skype in the morning…NY (hour) morning..of course..
PRESTON…
good points…but surely color is the exception for photographers submitting to Burn…i do not know why, but just look at the essay lineup….
Panos…
you’ve got mail…
Probably I should keep my mouth shut in this discussion, but just to inject a different perspective (from far left field, probably): I have NEVER, personally, had ANY interest in taking Black and White photographs myself. So whatever it is that motivates B+W photographers, it’s not something I can intelligently comment on.
Of course, I appreciate a lot of good B+W photography: HCB, Marc Riboud, Eugene Smith, Salgado, etc. Fabulous stuff. But I didn’t pick up a camera to shoot B+W and only do it occasionally, when a client asks for it, and I’m rarely enthused by the results. So I freely confess: I have zero sensitivity as a B+W photographer.
Back in the 70s and 80s when I was doing a lot of traveling and trying gradually to teach myself to take decent color slides, whenever I ran into “serious” or “art” photographers, they were invariably B+W photographers and very snobbish about it. The fact that I worked in color was ipso facto evidence for them that I was a no-talent, low-brow amateur, not to be taken seriously.
I think some of that attitude remains today. Now, I have NEVER felt that DAH himself projected that attitude, or even hinted at it, but I have felt that some other commentators here occasionally reveal echoes of that prejudice. I admit, I have a chip on my shoulder. I suspect that in a generation or two attitudes will have completely changed. Until recently, people who ‘seriously’ studied photography, i.e. went to photojournalism schools or art schools, etc. were always trained in B+W in their formative years, and if you wanted artistic control over your output (and who wouldn’t?), then you had to work in the darkroom, and for practical purposes that meant B+W (I can remember developing Ektachrome in little tanks and trying to make my own Cibachrome prints in the mid 70s). One reason I was an ‘early adopter’ of digital scanning and printing was that for the first time it gave a color photographer the kind of control over the output that B+W photographers had always had in the darkroom.
The point I want to leave you with is this… some people (believe it or not) don’t even WANT to take good B+W. If you do, wonderful, that is your medium of choice, and I applaud your efforts. And there is certainly a long and deep tradition that you are working in. But please don’t do yourself (and others) the disservice of letting any sense of superiority creep into that. Apologies if I have overstated my case.
If I had read Preston Merchant’s comment before I posted mine, I probably wouldn’t have needed to go on a tirade. I agree with Preston, who expresses himself well and far more subtly than I did.
Preston, I admire good B&W because it can be quite beautiful. I’m afraid it is often used these days to add a sense of weightiness to images that are pretty lightweight, or to make some subjects appear more “sinister” than they actually are, though. I’m not a big fan of high contrast, grainy B&W these days because it’s often used as an effect when the technology now exists to shoot clean B&W even in very low light. Back in the day, grainy high contrast images were an unavoidable side effect of shooting low light photos. With the latest digital stuff, that’s just not the case. But the bad use of B&W is not an indictment of the medium, only of the photographer using B&W badly.
Sorry, I didn’t mean to make it about me or be in any way argumentative. I really didn’t know that most serious photographers consider color more difficult. I thought it the other way around, partially from my early education, but also because we see in color without trying and to see in B&W requires quite a bit of training. Perhaps I was thinking along the same lines as Victor (if I understand him correctly) in his last sentence where he says (I think) that the B&W photographer has to develop a strong sense of composition and once that’s been developed it’s not so difficult to transfer it to color. I also can see the argument that it might be more a question of mentality, or personal predisposition, than any inherent difficulty with composing in color.
On the other hand, I could understand an entirely contradictory argument that color’s virtual infinite number of hues and the many ways in which they interact with each other make the composition infinitely more difficult. I don’t know about “infinitely,” or even “more difficult,” but colors alone do communicate and it certainly can be helpful to be acquainted with color theory as well as the more geometric ideas associated with classic composition.
Does any of that make sense? I guess, in short, I don’t know what’s easier, if anything, but enjoy thinking about it and reading what you all have to say.
well i like both colour and black and white though given a choice i’d go for colour but only if it’s a fairly simple composition…I just like the warmth and different emotion it brings to picture.
I love to look at b/w (some of my fave photogs. only shoot it) but colour makes me want to dive in and swim. or something :)
SIDNEY…
you might just be a wee bit paranoid on this one..but, i do know where you are coming from, because i too came from the generation where color was frowned upon…one of my potential problems for coming into Magnum even in the early nineties was that i was originally a b&w photographer turned into a mostly color photographer, and an American one at that..what could be worse? well, obviously it was not really a problem, just a perceived problem on my part much the same as yours now….i work mostly with photographers between the ages of 18-45…two generations below either one of us…there is no prejudice against color whatsoever with these young photographers overall…some do choose b&w for aesthetic reasons and based on the classic preference, but i do not hear derisive comments on color at all…never…for one thing times have changed in the once anti color snobby gallery world to the point where color photographers now far outsell b&w photographers… sure vintage b&w still king..but, i am talking about contemporary photographers and their work…so relax, we love you as a color photographer and i do not give a damn that you were never a b&w photographer…now, just try getting a little looser as a color photographer!!
cheers, hug, david
VICKY…
“just makes me want to dive in and swim or something”….love it Vicky…best line so far today….whatever makes you want to dive in and swim is what you should do the rest of your life….
MICHAEL WEBSTER…
you make perfect sense…keep thinking…and yes, please make a few photographs as well…i want to see
Thanks David. I’m not quite ready to show the aforementioned summer project, but if you want to see what I’ve done in the past few days, you can click on my name. It’s more an exercise in narrative than composition, but I found the exercise interesting in the context of a lot of these burn conversations.
B&W is more akin to making a mark on a page…………….a few words of interest scribbled on a page. …….a conversation.
Most colour work is like a statement……a sense of finality …………..what on has to do is try to make it sing, ask Panos he keeps colour in it’s raw fragile state ……..colour is no friend of the shadow
The dialogue section hasn’t been this interesting to read since the networking discussion. Lots of good advices, thoughts, knowledge… Need to copy & paste. Brain food.
I agree with most people here, especially about being aware of shooting in b&w or shooting in color before or/and when you are shooting, NOT AFTER. It’s a whole different way of thinking and seeing. The digital age has allowed for lots of lazy photographers to take too many of their choices after shooting. It can work for some, I guess, but decided quite a while ago only to focus on color with all of my projects. Being a purist has helped me a low with finding my own voice, and it still is…
Color is definitely not easier and it’s not only “one more thing to think about”, it’s three. Saturation, channels and white balance. Another thing is that I tend to dislike many high contrast photographs with strong colors, because as a sum it feels too much, but with less contrast there is a more balanced feeling to it and it looks more natural. It’s easier to fall into the trap of doing “too much” in photoshop with a color photograph than it is with a b&w.
And also, there is something magical that happens with colors with the right lighting. One of the things that I love the most about photography and keeps me going.
A good point in the discussion is that b&w photographers get more trained in seeing compositions more clearly and being more “structured” since colors CAN distract from seeing the composition. I’m not always aware of that when working, but will keep it in mind in the future.
@ david
ive mentioned that issue (typical b/w photographer doing occasional color) as a comment made by other members beforehand. in other words, one who does b/w, has better chances to to hit good photos when color film is in the camera. better chances than one who regularly does color, and only occasionally removes color, either to mimic classic b/w or to hide technical or aesthetic imperfections… this rarely brings a b/w spirit (whatever grasp one has about it). i think this is more or less work erica says too ?!
generally, for my own work and state of mind, and the way i see the history of photography, i think b/w is a Language, a bit distinctive… think , or maybe simply this is the way i want to see it….
and i also think color photography is not only putting color film and being aware of added or detracted color elements, but it is a different state of mind. so actually, i agree with u. in fact, i prefer to see in color a significant creative element that creates mood and impact on its own, not just additional realistic-illustration.
as for my color work, i have little interest in it at the moment. done it, really enjoyed and will enjoy it in the future, but im all b/w for my project now. i also think there are many of the portraits u imply that could have been just as good in color too, most likely. but still, i have little interest in it now. i really see b/w as a distinct language.
just a while ago, i had this thought, wether to add to my Israeli Women and Israeli Landscape color works in some way… putted the negatives and slides in the bag, just in case, but not loaded in the camera, even on locations that were initially inspiring and promising… the thing is that i was there at specific time of the day to have some sun and desired colors and thought to get to it back with b/w on clean light… the hand picked the b/w film… why im telling this, cause i think many who regularly does b/w (with film) might have this kind of curiosity just at times. just knowing that a good color photo can be done there, but all in b/w state of mind.
http://web.mac.com/victorbt/iWeb/Site/PhotoBlog_files/091126%20orit%20F1a.jpg
imagine something like this more or less, with light/transparent red/yellow light, with very faded cyan, dry israeli green and very dry yellow of plants etc etc…. now im convincing myself again, just to do it with or without the project :-)
“…One very important difference between color and monochromatic photography is this: in black and white you suggest; in color you state. Much can be implied by suggestion, but statement demands certainty… absolute certainty.”
– Paul Outerbridge –
what do I know…:)))
David;
As an aside; in your opinion which photographer’s book most successfully uses colour?
Colour is more? Colour is what we see, what we have around us. With black and white you have to translate, so, isn’t b&w more? ;)
Eva
Less is more :)
Ross. there are so many great workers in colour; Steve mccurry, alex webb DAH etc etc, But Saul Leiters book ‘early Colour’ is the only book I have seen so far where I would love to Own every single print in it. Pure poetry.
great little book….and we have Fred Herzog “Vancouver Photographs” plus Bergman’s “Kind of Rapture”
or http://www.greatwar.nl/frames/default-color.html
Another thing is that I tend to dislike many high contrast photographs with strong colors…
Contrast with color is best achieved by composing with complimentary colors, not pushing up the contrast slider in Photoshop. From what I’ve seen, Martin Parr is a master of that technique.Most of Alex and Rebecca Webb’s Cuba photos are also great examples. Some of David’s Divided Soul pics are textbook.
composing with complimentary color a favorite ploy of the Die Brucke artists and the Fauvists, taken up in earnest by consumer product advertisers
I’m coming to the color/B&W discussion a little late but blame it on DAH. Our Skype visit this morning got me so jazzed I actually spent a couple hours this afternoon making important calls re: connecting with MS (multiple sclerosis) organizations in Los Angeles and Detroit about my book. I’ve even got a date next week to show my Blurb book to the Michigan Chapter President of the National MS Society. I’m hoping she’ll have some ideas about possible donors to approach for pre-orders.
Thanks, DAH. I feel like I’m finally moving forward again. Yes, “Falling Into Place” WILL fall into place if I don’t drop the ball (to thoroughly mix my metaphores!).
Regarding color and B&W, I seem to be alone in feeling that color is the easier of the two. Maybe it’s my years of experience as a painter who used vibrant colors, but to my eye, color can be so seductive that one can get away with less differentiation in value and more diffused shapes than with B&W. When I work in B&W, I always feel that any weakness in form, value and composition becomes glaringly obvious. B&W is pure line, form and value; there’s nothing to hide even subtle deficiencies. I’m not saying that I count on color to turn bad pics into good ones; I’m just saying that, of the two, I find B&W harder to use well.
Patricia
i’m late too and passing by…
i used to shoot both. i started out with b&w and a budget home darkroom, but as david bowen said that was for practical reasons more than anything else. the best way to learn, in your budget b&w darkroom…
shooting in the music biz they always used to ask for a mix of colour and b&w and i’ve always been able to make the mental switch, like being bi-lingual… good training i suppose…
the only time colour was difficult for me was in my first years when colour had to be shot on slide film, now that was tough. half my rolls got lost in clip tests! for sure a good way to learn correct exposures…
Imants, I was only talking about contrast. Obviously there’s a lot more to great photography than that. But even limiting it to contrast, I’d argue that good contrast in B&W is a lot more than simply blowing out the midtones. I hadn’t thought of it in this context before, but David’s work is very enlightening on the subject. Not just the color. A lot of the stuff in “Off for a Family Drive” is textbook good contrast with B&W. Note that it’s achieved without sacrificing a rich gray scale.
I really wish I could refer to color photography as colour. I might have a different position on the color/colour vs b&w divide.
Personally, if I choose to work in B&W I will use B&W film. Color/colour has it’s own pre-requisites as does B&W. To gain an appreciation for both renderings I would suggest shooting film until the differences are understood. The notion of only having it one way is so crucial to working in B&W or Color/colour.
Amen
“shooting in the music biz they always used to ask for a mix of colour and b&w and i’ve always been able to make the mental switch, like being bi-lingual… good training i suppose…”
perhaps that´s part of it for me too…
the ideal for me is to shoot both..
as i mentioned, i tend to see from photo to photo and bnw or colour occurs in that way for me.. photo to photo.. changes just around each corner.
´thinking´in bnw does take practice, and maybe printing a great deal helps with that.. understanding which colours will reproduce as which shade.. contrasts.. my bnw kentmere exhibition prints from 13 years ago are as much a joy to me now as then, for the tonal range and subtlety of the shades.. i wish i had a scanner good enough to show them online well.
i really enjoy jarring colours as well as complimentary in photography.. the play between certain colours and the way they interact has been of interest since chating with painter friends about it.
colour can be so much more effective if used well.. making reality hyper real.. the extra information can add a great deal.
“To gain an appreciation for both renderings I would suggest shooting film until the differences are understood. ”
i think that´s the best way to start.. even better if you are able to do some bnw and colour printing, when the additional choices help to present the reality of working in each more clearly.
“One reason I was an ‘early adopter’ of digital scanning and printing was that for the first time it gave a color photographer the kind of control over the output that B+W photographers had always had in the darkroom.”
and that´s a very good point as well.. taking the subtlety of bnw print techniques to photoshop with colour can produce wonders..
i sometimes think of black and white as similar to the minor chords in music.. effective and wrenching if used well.. cheap and easy if not.
in that respect i understand what jim is saying.. bnw can be used to make something feel more ´worthy´, when it is not.. make us react with poignancy and sentimentality which can feel contrived.. and sidney – there was still snobbery about it when i was in collage in the 90´s..
whether a photo is bnw or colour really is not a starting place in relating to the worthiness of a piece of work..
if a photograph or series is ´convincing´ to us it has more to do with weightier factors than the colour or bnw discussion.. although that may or may not come into it.
the blues is utterly bewitching for many more reasons than the minor chord.
DAH:
Sorry to ask… your “old master Goya”? Is that Francisco Goya, as an influence? Very interested in that sort of connection… photography/earlier arts.
CIVI:
Many thanks for the cool Outerbridge quote.
Imants, John G; Thank you! :-)
Francisco Goya etchings and paintings are akin to that of photo journalistic imagery and like a photojournalist Goya appears to have tried not to take sides.
http://www.mtholyoke.edu/courses/awlee/ARTH241/images/disasters.jpg
http://rbvhs.vusd.k12.ca.us/teachers/roswell/apeuro/images/may_3rd.jpg
Bjarte, good thing I have to leave for work, this “less is more” could become complicated ;)
Pomara,
Ill give you that b/w and color are different but I honestly feel you are making a mountain out of a mole hill. It is not rocket science here we are dealing with, and the difference between b/w and color can be rather quickly grasped.
neither one is more. They are just different. This is about as ridiculous a debate as film vs digital, IMO.
I shoot both. I also segregate both in that I shoot in one or the other but never the same for one project. But I have no trouble shooting in color and b/w on the same day, I had no trouble getting into color after starting with b/w. Honestly it is not that huge a transition, and really, it is a secondary issue next to what is TRULY important and difficult: content.
I wanted to point people to an important behind the scenes look of Terry Richardson in Brazil:
And if that wasn’t quite enough, check out Toto from 1979 in this simply amazing performance (Jeff Porcaro of course on drums!): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2OczVquNilY
MR.HARVEY,
I have to Thank you (once again)… for ANDREW WYETH
“…in my mind now i see Andy as a young boy, running across those farm fields he loved… hmmmm, is Andy really gone, or is he just playing a trick on us and hiding in the barn???…”
Wyeth painting sells for $6.9M at NY auction
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091203/ap_on_re_us/us_wyeth_auction…
he is probably up there…half smiling …for Helga…
P.S tick -talk …back to the regular program …
Rafal. Do you not think that throwing out a statement like ‘the difference between b/w and color can be rather quickly grasped. ‘ and then NOT explaining the difference except to say ‘neither one is more. They are just different’ is not only naive in the extreme, but also a bit of an insult to the people who have spent many years trying to master these disciplines?
And yes, content IS an important thing, but how you are able to render that, in a way that matches what you WANT it to, is as important..and fucking hard.
Loading up with a roll of tri-x or a roll of portra does NOT make you a colour or black and white shooter any more than buying a box of crayons makes you an artist.
dellicson.
however much fun they seem to be having, the pirelli video leaves me feeling uncomfortable.
it’s for a specific market and to me is along the lines of a playboy shoot, i think the video was just an extension of that in terms of entertaining the boys.
sorry :)
INSPIRING
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/dec/01/india-tunnel-14-years
John, I’m with you on this. It was interesting reading a thread where a number of long time photographers talked about the difficulties of transitioning from B&W to color, or Color to b&w, and then Rafal blows the whole thing off as not worth discussing because it was easy and the discussion pointless.
At least for me, color often overwhelms the subject, and it’s a struggle making it work. I shoot a lot of color because it’s what folks want to see in newspapers and magazines these days. So you learn to control it. But rarely shoot color for personal stuff and only shoot B&W in my Leica or Nikon film cameras.
Harvey’s casual control of color makes getting good color photos look way too easy! :)
Jim. And I think thats the point. the more you struggle to master a medium, to be able to use it in a way that reflects what you want it to be able to, the more respect you have for the obvious masters of that particular discipline. ..and then the more you strive to improve, to learn. Rafal was certainly right on one point, subject. A perfectly made picture of nothing is, after all, still a picture of nothing. I have the BIG magnum book (which ironically lives in my b/w darkroom as a weight for the blotter stack) and looking through that is a real big lesson in mastery of technique coupled to fantastic vision. They must go hand in hand.
John
I would like to see Rafal back it up with a few of his quality images that show the ease of transition. But I know that won’t happen
NOTE.
ironic in that I use that book as a bit of a colour bible and yet it is pressed( pun intended ) into service for the making of black and white prints only.
It was interesting reading a thread where a number of long time photographers talked about the difficulties of transitioning from B&W to color, or Color to b&w,..
————————————————————————————————————-
i dont know what Thodoris ( reputable B&W printer ) has to say about this…
but when my photo addiction started 24 years ago as a B&W printer… i started
“seeing” things in B&W… sooo, to repeat myself: when i was shooting i had 3 things in my mind..
1) my type of negative…
2) camera exposing to get as many tones possible ( trying to shoot for the highlights (save detail)..
i was praying for cloudy skies etc…thinking developing times , having the negatives’ density on my mind..etc..
3)my composition and the content was in a way calibrated/dictated according to the above…(usually keep it simple..thinking in a geometric, mathematical way..result:great tones, great prints..hmmm not so great photos..why? i dont know..maybe coz i was thinking too much…chemistry, math, physics..
in other words i was trying to understand if this or that would look good..
Later i realized i was a little bit afraid of connection..
everytime i was shooting color i hate it… too much “reality”..nothing artistic of the bat…
fuck reality i convinced myself..live in a dream..escape…do drugs etc..
Way, way later…i started dealing with my fears…way way later in my life i realized that FOR ME to do a good photo connection, therefore acceptance is more important… Thinking b&w ( for me & me only )
was some sort of a filter /a firewall…my safety net…
Wayyy way later i jumped into life..DIVE & SWIM someone said…dont be afraid of the colors..
stop reading a book and start writing one…accept “your reality”..colors can be sad..can make cry..
emotions..think of a sunset…i still see couple of my venice sunst photos and i cry..
there is no way i could do that in venice..in my life either…
Now, 22 years later..life is still painful..but i dont close my eyes anymore..
Now my only mathematics are simple..very simple..
EXPOSE FOR DARKNESS…MAKE SURE THE BLACKS ARE BLACK…digital or slide film..doesnt matter..
i love leica because it doesnt have matrix or multiple zone meter…
it lets me grab my “blacks”…but even if i shoot with nikon, canon etc..no problem..
i switch the meter to centerweight or spot…
thats my only mathematics i do now..
make sure you got the blacks, the shadows..
i dont care about highlights anymore..
i have more free “ram”, memory in my brain to think connection with my subjects..
colors, red , blue dont scare me no more..
Pink either…
big hug
so..therefore.. I CANT SHOOT IN b&w ANYMORE..
its almost impossible for me.. my life decided for me..
to shoot color..
( sorry for the typos in last post…shooting for “blacks”..make blacks as blacks as possible is my only math i do now…plus im not afraid of the sun anymore )
See Panos is the angry penguin of raw colour…….
in other words i’m afraid that i agree with those that said that u can do good in one
“department” only..either color or b&w..
unless u r DAH..unless u r a master..
and i know i’m not..
im not saying color is “better”..
im just saying how my brain works…
i cant, i refuse..or better im unable to “see” or “think” in black & white anymore..
at this very moment of my life…
i live in peoples couches.. i got 2 pair of socks, 3 underwear, 2 pairs of converses and
a laptop…i dont have a home, neither a dark room..
i cant see b&w anymore..
but in 10 years from now maybe my life will change…then i might give B&W another try..
but till then, i aint gonna lie to u..
i only see color and blacks, blacks..blacks
big hug
but watch out for his yellow flip flops as nt all penguins are bnw
This is a worthy subject for discussion – although this thread is way too long for me to find its source. Does anyone else miss the multiple posts to each essay? I know that they invariably led off subject i.e. the essay itself, but usually by that time everyone had discussed the essay anyway. What was left was discussions such as this. It could become a bear pit sometimes but it was an entertaining bear pit.
With regard to the colour b&w debate here. I recall reading that Ernst Hass once mused what would have happened if colour photography had been invented before b&w. The history of b&w photography is so rich precisely because for many decades it was the only realistic medium in town. It has also been much easier for a photographer to stamp his/her own individual mark on their work with dodging, burning, toning etc. With colour the photographer has had less ability to do this in a traditional darkroom. In many cases a photographer would use slide film and it would be published straight, as taken.
Then along came digital: and every photograph is suddenly captured in colour. If you want b&w you can convert, but you always have the colour original to compare with. of equal importance is the new digital tools such as Photoshop, Viveza etc. that allow the freedom of expression in colour that had only been available to a master b&w printer in the past.
D.A.H. has already mentioned that he has shot Family Drive in a mixture of colour and b&w (I know, he used film) so, for the colour photographs at least, he has the opportunity to see what they look like in b&w.
I’m recently back to using film. I intended to shoot my new essay in b&w using C41 b&w film (no darkroom at present) and scanning the results. I tested some colour neg film to see how it converted and I really like the colour originals. I, personally, don’t think that after 25 years of shooting exclusively in colour, I can go back to b&w; especially with the digital tools now available to tailor the results exactly to my taste.
Mike.
but watch out for his yellow flip flops as nt all penguins are bnw
——————————————————————-
laughing…yup..exactly
big hug
Viveza is an amazing tool that has given me a lot of control back with digital color photography (and B&W for that matter). By being able to target specific colors and tones and easily limit the effect of adjustments to exactly where I want them, it is indeed much more like dodging and burning in a wet darkroom. Excellent software that saves a lot of time in post.
viveza..!!??
what the hell is viveza?
sounds like relenza or ambien…sounds like a drug..:))
let me try it then…
and about that drug talk..u know its a joke…
KIDS , DO NOT DO DRUGS…no more..
not good for u…
pick up a camera instead..
Mike R–“I, personally, don’t think that after 25 years of shooting exclusively in colour, I can go back to b&w; especially with the digital tools now available to tailor the results exactly to my taste.”
That last sentence IS the point. Of course you can change the intent of your work with a click today, but the whole idea is to really understand the difference. I have no desire to sell anyone on my point of view, but as an illustration: Many moons ago I worked for a daily newspaper, BD (Before Digital). We ran one color image on the Sunday page 1 edition, so obviously the lions share of my work was B$W. When the color work was turned in for the Sunday front, I can remember many times hearing, “Is that all the color you could find?” Of course there is a difference.
And Mike R. You CAN reacquaint yourself with B$W. Get some CN400.
Panos, I wish I could remember what filter to use for yellow flip flops.
I like this quote by the photographer Luca Campigotto:
“It is in the persuasive infidelity of black and white that the dream can become intentional.”
Pomara, yes, in the old days the more colour you could put on a page the better. Colour was new and so different to b&w – especially red!
My point about digital tools is not that I want to change the intent of my work, it’s more that I am now able to show my intent rather than rely on the colour palette of the film manufacturer. I am now able to give a certain emotion to my photographs with selective use of colour and tone.
We all know the stories of the epic darkroom sessions of W Eugene Smith, who would burn his photographs to deep black and then bring out selected highlights using ferricyanide; that amount of control has not been available to the colour photographer until recently.
I’ve got some C41 Fuji neg film – but I’ve also got Silver Effex Pro (it’s b&w Viveza, Panos, from Nik Software (free trials available but you WILL want it)).
Having said all of the above, colour photographers spend an inordinate amount of time waiting for the “right light”. B&w photographers just get on with it. I’ll stick to colour neg and decide later – but which head should I wear? Colour head … b&w head????
Laughing,
Mike.
Pomara, yes, in the old days the more colour you could put on a page the better. Colour was new and so different to b&w – especially red!
My point about digital tools is not that I want to change the intent of my work, it’s more that I am now able to show my intent rather than rely on the colour palette of the film manufacturer. I am now able to give a certain emotion to my photographs with selective use of colour and tone.
We all know the stories of the epic darkroom sessions of W Eugene Smith, who would burn his photographs to deep black and then bring out selected highlights using ferricyanide; that amount of control has not been available to the colour photographer until recently.
I’ve got some C41 Fuji neg film – but I’ve also got Silver Effex Pro (it’s b&w Viveza, Panos, from Nik Software (free trials available but you WILL want it)).
Having said all of the above, colour photographers spend an inordinate amount of time waiting for the “right light”. B&w photographers just get on with it. I’ll stick to colour neg and decide later – but which head should I wear? Colour head … b&w head????
Laughing,
Mike.
MICHAEL WEBSTER…
since you live in Brooklyn and my loft is at Kent ave and south 11th near the Wmsbrg bridge i suggest you come over for a chat…all of this rhetoric is a bit irrelevant without sitting down and really going over your work and your intent…can do??
MARK W…
my earliest influences were writers and painters, not photographers….
RAFAL…
this time worn discussion sort of started by accident….yes, it is a bit like the equally never ending film vs digi discussion..still, for some it is a new discussion…for sure , content is THE thing…nevertheless John G makes a good point…
JOHN G
yes, Saul Leiter is the first color street photographer who i thought had anything interesting to say……
ROSS…
oh for me surely Miguel Rio Branco is a color master…..
Interesting discussions here… My impression though, that most emerging and not yet established photographers here(including myself:)), probably already know about photography even more than Bresson, Winogrand, Solgado, Harvey… One little thing is left though – to start taking pictures at least artistically close to those of previously mentioned great artists…
Beside the point: “A picture should be looked at – not talked about.” – Elliott Erwitt
UNCLE – I’ve taken a leaf out of your book and taken out the quintisential Australian artists , Sid Nolan, and revisiting Russell Drysdale.
Good to catch up in Bangers mate , I am onto circus and will be sowing seeds next week , any news?
Someone (way earlier in this discussion) mentioned the fact that a few decades ago b&w was the norm. This is actually still the case for those of us still shooting film for personal projects—read with shoestring budgets.
When I first moved to Cyprus six years ago, I was shooting almost exclusively color slides. But living in the middle of nowhere, meant that both the price to purchase and (even more so) the price to develop were extremely high. Adding to that the fact that every second frame came back with either a fingerprint or a slight scratch, and the fact that I couldn’t afford a dissent digi-cam, I found myself on the brink of giving up photography altogether.
Then it hit me. Having studied photography when digital was just starting out, I was very lucky to meet an amazing teacher who taught me all the right stuff about developing and printing.
So, going back to b&w wasn’t an entirely “esthetics” decision for me—and think I’m not alone on this.
At the end though, types of film, types of cameras/formats and what not, are nothing but tools. No matter how and why we came to use one over another, my view is that what matters is putting in the time and energy and patience in mastering our chosen tools in order to make them work for us and help us express our vision. ‘cause in the end, only thing that matters is having something to say.
Oh, and for the record, I too find color way harder than b&w.
vicky slater:
maybe so, but I personally think that Terry Richardson is doing work of the highest order. . .
Very interesting young Japanese photographer whom I know. Ikuru: http://ikuru-k.blogspot.com/
Thodoris Tzalavras,
I like your point and I hope you won’t get offended if I correct one word in your sentence, even though I absolutely understand the meaning of your original word: “‘cause in the end, only thing that matters is having something to say” – TO SHOW. Recently there is too much photographers’ verbal talk in the field of photography… Let art columnists, critics, spectators to talk… Verbal talk in the photography does have a little sense, but only after the still image speaks volumes itself.
Hahaha, Anthony, next topic: words, yes or no, in photography?
ladies and gentlemen…
from Virginia beach…here is SIMONES HOUSE…
http://picasaweb.google.com/innerspacecowpanos/Dah?authkey=Gv1sRgCPSa1uOcreymBA#slideshow/5411010807109641394
David, Sure. Thanks. What kind of beer do you like? I’ll send you an email this evening with a bit more info.
DAVIN…
i am with Vicky on this one..Terry Richardson is a very successful commercial photographer…nothing more
PANOS..
Simone here is in Nags Head, North Carolina…..but Va.Beach is not far away and my boyhood home…nice screenshot
@ thodoris…
i can perfectly understand the issue of sending the film to pro lab if u live in some distant place (slide, medium/large format are only in prolabs). evem more so i understand the feeling of doing all by yourself, this is one of the most important things to me in doing b/w (besides language/aesthetic).
but….
im not sure about economical side though, or dont think it is that dramatic and a very significant consideration.
step by step… (considering that sending film for developing is not a big issue, like for one who lives in the city with prolab).
the price difference between b/w film and color negative is not big, although i guess it depends on country etc. anyway, think it terms of how much more expensive it is in %%…. developing and scanning it is also not much different.
slide film is different and significantly more expensive if u insist on using it. but i really dont think that slide is the only color option… there are amazing color negative films from kodak and fuji to suite any taste, and honestly, although i love fuji provias, i think their pro negatives are just as great for general use, if not better.
now suppose u do b/w all your own. and lets ignore the element/pleasure/psychology/control of doing it yourself. for film u will pay the same anyway. for developing u dont pay, but u need materials and they also cost something (and not too cheap to keep everything fresh etc). add to it investment made to have the tools including some acceptable epson scanner to make draft scans (which are not expensive in long run of course)… add to it time u spend on developing etc – all in all, neto time of about 2 hours to develop a little batch of photo-session, including scanning it. sorry, but i already dont see much economy in it.
now the real thing (that personally bothers me at the moment). i do not have a darkroom now. think about the expenses of setting your own high quality darkroom, minimalist for personal use, but still – u need bigger place to buy or rent, which in some places is super expensive… add to it equipment, especially if u want new and quality etc…
but again, even without your own darkroom, i dont think b/w is all that cheaper …. i think there is some Student psychology in that feeling, but number differences are not that dramatic when u do the real math, independently (using your own place and materials)
DAVIN…
terry richardson makes photographs of breasts of the highest order. emphasis on the word “breasts”. If you were given the opportunity to photograph such a smorgasbord of fine breastage, then no doubt your photographs would be ‘work of the highest order’ too.
that being said, i do admire terry richardson for simultaneously being both a very successful commercial photographer and a first class buffoon. he is obviously very talented at making his models feel at ease on a shoot, in spite of his penchant for photographing his own member and supping milk direct from the cows teat.
genius, if you ask me. however, Mr Richardson’s photographs have never once inspired me to mull over the worlds greater problems, unless you consider a lack of exquisite female (or male) breasts in my photographs to be one of the worlds greater problems.
DAH: I was joking a bit :))))))) I thought the behind the scenes video was gratuitous in the way it showed topless women.
benroberts: :)
Glenn Campbell,
Gotta applaud your looking into Australian painters. Sidney Nolan is terrific, and not just because we share the same first name. Don’t forget to give a serious reconsideration to the earlier Australian landscape painters from which all this comes… John Glover (a distant relative of mine), Tom Rush, Arthur Streeton, and my favorite of these, Frederic McCubbin. These are all painters whose work should be known far beyond the geographical or cultural bounds of Oz, and it’s a shame the rest of the world is so ignorant about them.
BEN…DAVIN
we agree
Panos
Excellent pictures :)
Want more!
Victor…
I agree about the costs. I could probably have gotten a 5D and a couple of lenses with the money I spent to build my MF system and to set up my darkroom in 2006 (everything second hand of course…), which after a few thousand pictures becomes the cheapest solution… it was more of an emotional decision… I was fed up with dealing with the shortcomings of supposed “pro labs” and I wanted total control… I wasn’t proficient with digital at the time, so I turned to what I knew best… as for color negatives, I was never a big fan… was always a sucker for projecting slides on the wall…
Mike R: “colour photographers spend an inordinate amount of time waiting for the “right light”. B&w photographers just get on with it.”
oh no oh no oh no…as a bw photographer I’m like a cat waiting for prey when it comes to light…certain times of day, certain qualities, God’s softbox is the best…
Anthony…
No offence taken. I translated the expression I used from Greek anyway, where the “does it say anything?”/“does it have anything to say?” means if there is anything to it, if it’s meaningful, if it has value, if it’s any good… and it’s the most common question about movies, music, books, etc… even food come to think of it…
check this out: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntyXvLnxyXk
you do not have to use your imagination much to see what will happen when the new Apple tablet hits the market…please put your content hats on NOW….this will not be the only way to view magazines or photographs, but it is certainly one way for the future…imagine Burn one year from now assuming this new technology is here tomorrow…content providers will be king and content providers will be compensated….
Thodoris Tzalavras,
I know, I know… In three languages I am able to speak, it has the same meaning as you have just described… by “correcting” that already correct word it was just an easy way for me to make my own point :).
david
wow….
going forward
always…..
you’re always ahead of the game….
***
Well, I am a big spokesman of future, and everything what’s new, everything!. but… but in me is so many old-fashioned elements. I still want to taking b&w pictures like larry towell do, I love but will not make ever a modern multimedia art etc.
I think most of us are curious this all new techniques and all miss (even a little) for old fashioned world passed away.
peace for burnians. must run
DAH,
Got it! The “Wow! factor” is even better than I had envisioned. Tablet City, here we come. Gotta think about this one, long and hard.
i love the idea that the tablet could finally provide the perfect blending of traditional and modern publishing tech.. exciting stuff..
victor
when i began printing in the late 80´s cheapness really came through bnw – bulk film.. 2nd hand darkroom cost no more than 10GBP from a car boot sale.. as a teen it was the only way i could possibly get into photography seriously.
now, in the uk at least, you are probably right.
i had a good deal with a local lab who threw me 5 or 6 rolls of colour film a week for 5 gbp, and dev and scanned entire rolls for 2 gbp each..
it took time to build up the relationship to get those kind of discounts – although i hear fuji labs in the uk have tremendous deals on scanning and deving at the moment..
i think these days it´s also worth looking at non-pro labs, especially fuji ones as i have found their machines to be extremely well serviced and produce results which some pro labs have been unable to.
and then to norway – 15 to 20 GBP to dev and scan a single roll of film..
hmm..
ben is on the money and davin – i´m glad you were being tongue in cheek.. i turned off the clip from the shoot at the point he began mimicking an ape in the jungle..
oo..oo..ARGH ARGH ARGH.
not in the least bit inspiring..
MARCIN…
dammit, get out of the cold Polish fog!! you will not lose anything!!
listen, i am in the new media..right? i am also building out my darkroom and getting ready to reprint my vintage black & white…i have already sold to collectors 3 copies of a 15 copy edition…i now have 2 print media assignments..great ones…new book in the works…no, i do not need to give you my bio , but i am trying to make a point….so i am in the old, and i am in the new..right? point is, all of the new stuff is going to make the old stuff even better…one does not preclude the other..why would it?? you can take some of the new, mix it with just a bit of the old, in whatever ratio you want, and come of with a mixed drink that will set your hair on fire…got it?
big hug, david
David,
Wow. There is a lot of promise here. Hopefully it will spawn a new era in photojournalism. I’m hoping for a waterproof model I can view in the bath, my favourite place to read magazines.
We’ll see if the content can match the promise of the technology. I’ve got 100 channels of crap on my television.
GORDON L…ALL
yes, this is the challenge…quality content…and this is where i want to play a part..at Magnum, on Burn, and with Circus..to try to do the old cliche but forever in my heart “right thing”…Anton and i from our laptops while traveling etc. have created Burn..flawed yes, but we do have a base…give us just a few more people and a few more dollars and we can at least put a brick in the wall..the right wall of course…and it is the audience here that will make that possible….i am filled with nothing but a sense of responsibility towards this audience…i owe everybody here…i will not let you down…
cheers, david
“We’ll see if the content can match the promise of the technology. I’ve got 100 channels of crap on my television.”
that´s very true.. and there is stacks of crap on youtube, yet also some gems.
in terms of investment magazines will love it.. many past clients have already gone purely wwwDOT format for cost reasons.. compared to print costs producing a web or MM tablet mag is much more affordable.. so it will come down to how it works out for photographers in terms of fee´s.. perhaps the few who already value content enough to pay will lead the majority who do not.
Content should always be king…..an amazing photograph should be an amazing photograph whether it’s viewed in a magazine presented on a tablet, or in a preinted mag, or hanging on the wall in a gallery, or in a book….
Now I agree some photographs will present themselves better in particular formats (Brother Bob, still dying to see Bones big Big BIG in a gallery)….but won’t an amazing photograph always be an amazing photograph?
Nothing new really there, I think….
but now you all have me all worried in the discussion of B&W vs. colour….layers, structure, bones, composition, balance….if I thought about all that while I was shooting I’d never get around to pressing the shutter release….please please please someone tell me that all becomes intuitive, or perhaps is an innate skill, as one shoots more and more and then dissects the result…..(heck, I’m not even qualified to dissect, yet, don’t think….)….all I know is the times I’ve ended up with a good photograph, I’ve had a feeling in my gut that said “take that now, that’s a good photo”…..is that ever enough?
@ DAH can we set up a few minutes to skype sometime? I have a few questions for you, I can even send in advance if you’d like….shouldn’t be more than 15 minutes or so, but easier and faster to talk throguh than write, I think….all related to the my participationin the workshop in January…
now off so I don’t burn (ha!) my grilled cheese sandwich. Good Light, all.
a.
Hmm, not sure that was I was thinking came across in those first 2 paragraphs….I guess I was saying that the new technology might revolutionize how we look at and distribute work, and the demand for high-quality in more quantity (magazines not being limited by physical space)….but good work will be good work….
ah heck..it will change lots…we need to all be aware and think of ways to innovate new good work…
hmm. guess I should have waited until after lunch to post. :)
a.
B&W, color. Pretty much the difference between reading poetry (aloud) and singing lyrics. One doesn’t exclude the other, but for some one can come easier, according to possibilities, interest and ear.
On the spur of the moment, singing seems to come more naturally than reading aloud, which may require a little more thought, yet, we all probably read more texts than sing songs when we were learning to speak and write. Just like photography was learnt or caught on by “mankind” in B&W.
May I suggest that B&W made a lot of financial sense as well, especially starting up, because color was/is a damned expensive, (buying, processing, printing) medium, and near impossible for a reasonably poor amateur, darkroom/printing equipment wise.
IMO
ANDREW B..
of course, all this discussion is academic…sure it should be all intuitive…one may think of some elements later, after the fact, the the act of pressing the release while balancing it all out in milliseconds of piercing eye movement is or should be intuitive….
we can skype this week…i have a bunch of skypers ahead of you at the moment…early morn best for me, but many have figured this out, but just jump in the fray and pop me a chat note telling me you are on..
cheers, david
I (presently) shoot in colour. The majority of my bookshelf is comprised of b&w photography. Is this because b&w looks (is) better or because the majority of “serious” photographers shoot b&w or because the production of quality colour books is more difficult (or expensive) to produce?
To me, in any group Magnum book the b&w photos sing compared to the washed-out colour photos. Probably the paper.
Mike.
David, anyone interested in making a Ytube (or vimeo, whatever) BURN account? People could download video, cell clips taken during weeks of workshop, or “in their garden”, or wherever. Then post the link here, or better, have a link on the right column always accessible for everyone.
Password would be given away for the asking, but on an individual, “code of honor” basis by Anton, David, or anyone having it already. WE’d agree on a few guidelines like, IMO: no comments except back here on BURN, no porn, only our own videos and MM edits…
The idea being not in achieving excellence, but very simply sharing, using that medium.
Truly amazing technology with all the possibilities of seeing photos and content, especially editorial, the way it should be seen – larger, interactive, rich – but I’m tempted to roll into Jim-speak about the business model end of things and how all of this will be paid for, or not. Then again, that wasn’t the point I suppose. The possibilities are amazing and new frontiers exciting, the marketplace will work it’s way out one way or another and I am sure everyone is right, content will truly be king. I see the last few years of digital content creation as the inevitable baby steps, as mostly unprofitable efforts at prepositioning. Congratulations David and Anton for setting a fine table for the Burn potluck. Hang on, it’s coming.
Shooting kids (hmm.. kinda weird to write that..), host talk:
http://www.foto8.com/new/online/interviews/1047-shooting-kids-host-talk
David; Thanks for the Miguel Rio Branco link. I seem to find new work to look at all the time through Burn!
A poster above (I can’t find the post now!) wrote about the “right light”. Most photographers I know absolutely gush over the evening golden light. I love that type of light too, but my favourite is soft overcast (for “people” shots).
Maybe it’s a hangover from my nature shooting days, but I adore the soft light on faces, and the details that show up in it. As long as I can leave out a washed out overcast sky of course! Anyone agree? Or am I a voice in the wilderness? :-)
But I also love the challenge of shooting limited late night light too! After a couple of weeks of day shooting I’m all recharged to get back into the night scene again.
Cheers
Anton, thanks for correcting the aspect ratio!
About B&W and colour… I would like to learn how to keep my focus and just keep for example B&W and work with that. It seems that when I have B&W gear with me, I see mostly images that would work great in colour…and vice versa.
Trent Parke is one of my all time favourites. I love his old gritty ‘classic’ B&W style and I want to steal the look of his new colour stuff. I dunno why most of the stuff is not on Magnum website, but here is more of his colour work. http://www.stillsgallery.com.au/artists/parke/index.php?obj_id=main&nav=1
I’ve been fascinated by the multi-media presentations on Burn. During my audio-visual days thirty odd years ago I helped produce slide shows synced to music and voice.
In view of the new tablets, still cameras that shoot hi-def video, and Zoom recorders, there seems to be a huge revolution about to take place.
I’ve barely explored digital slide shows at all. I’d love to be able to at least do what we used to do with slides and tape. I’d like to be able to create a sound track, pace the visuals, be able to cut, fade, disolve etc, and insert video into the stream of stills.
Is there SIMPLE TO USE software out there to achieve this? I know most image editing programs have at least some of these capabilities. (I’m a PC user) What are folks out there using?
Dear Mr Tablet content providers will be king and content viewers will become content providers for content providers who are king as content viewers will slip into history….
DAH…
maybe you didn’t noticed but the swimsuit issue video on the Apple tablet demo you shared were made in Lisbon… we can even see the same square where you made Pauliana chiaroscuro portrait (in Divided Soul)…
by the way, have you seen the last kameraphoto project? it’s an exhibition (also a book) in Lisbon (until Dec. 31) – “A State of Affairs”. 13 photographers, 13 cities, 7 days, 91 images. for this project they send their photographers to cities around the world, where they spend a week working in close association with a daily newspaper or a local agency.
http://www.kameraphoto.com/kphotographers/work.php?lang=en&artistID=19&workID=64
and they also run a small gallery. now they show João Pina’s photos Gangland (the gangs in Rio de Janeiro favelas), featured recently in a The New Yorker audio slide show
http://www.newyorker.com/online/multimedia/2009/10/05/091005_audioslideshow_riogangster
from Portugal um forte abraço para ti e todos,
Carlos Filipe
I mean what software are folks using, don’t want to start a Mac vs PC thing..please.
Petri
Thanks for the Trent Parke link. Great stuff, much of which would not translate well into black and white.
The Apple Tablet will not be a mainstream device for a long time if ever. It will likely be too expensive to have much presence in the consumer market. Next.
Wonder if Facebook photographer, Nonja, visualizes her images in black and white
or color ?
http://www.smh.com.au/digital-life/digital-life-news/snaphappy-orangutan-clicks-with-facebook-20091203-k866.html
A camera that dispenses raisins with each shot is pure genius and look forward to Canon
implementing that technology in future camera models.
Personally, i’m going to hold out for the Smarties dispenser version
Aleast with the tablet badly scanned negatives with scratches and fingermarks will look normal maybe this will be a must have accessory http://etrouko.com.au/art/gfdr.jpg
DAVID,
Catching the discussion late here but it was interesting to read your earlier comment about the photographers that have tried color and never came back to it, especially Bruce Davidson as his book Subway is one of my all time favorites and I have often asked myself that question on why after doing such a great book he never produced another one in color. I was not aware he initially tried for Central Park and Chicago…. really interesting perspective….pure guess here from my side but maybe what allowed him to be more successful with Subway is that many of the pictures were obviously taken in low light situations, situations in which the colors were possibly not very obvious initially to the eye of the B&W photographer he is….. not sure if this is making any sense….:)
Anyway, personally, I would consider myself as a color photographer (Believe it or not, I have yet to make a B&W picture)….I am clearly drawn to colors and instintively select a setting or background with colors and light that attact me and then I try to capture a moment or a situation but I often start by looking at the colors and the environment…..in that context, when I started my boxing project initially, I really was lost as the light in the gyms was very low, no bright color, no easy references and instinct was completely messed up… and then the magical small pop-up flash brought the colors back and “unlocked” everything eventually but I did struggle a lot at the beginning as I usually need to see the colors when I take a photograph….
Separately, I have failed so far to skype you this week…The past days have actually been crazy…will try when I get a chance and hopefully before you go on to your next world travel :):)…
Cheers,
Eric
Gordon – this is what you want, I believe..http://www.soundslides.com/
Eric – I made you mole (as in mole-ay) sauce in my dream the other night, from chocolate and whisky – and your home was amazing, with a big window looking out to what appeared to be tropical blue waters, it was so incredibly beautiful with a fisherman in one of those low open boats that has a rail that comes out to one side for balance, a keel, maybe Thailand…so maybe there is a move in your future to a warmer clime..my dreams often come true..if you and your family make the move i will be there to cook for you all
B&W or Color….
Years ago, when I bought my first camera, an old photographer friend of my family said to me “Photography is an abstraction of reality since the moment you expose a negative and thus lose one dimension. The biggest the abstraction is, the easiest you will “impress your audience”. A contrasted B&W photo taken with a super wide angle lense is always “easier to digest”….that´s “new stuff” for your brain!…..but shooting color with a normal lense, which is what your eye is used to see everyday, is not so easy. Now kid, go sell that zoom of yours, buy a 35mm prime and a color film roll”.
I’m not saying that he was right….but I do think he had a point in the sense that, in general, B&W is a bit more “forgiving” than color. What do you guys think about this? (if my english is understandable and I make any sense at all ;) ).
Eric..
found your boat
http://www.arachnoid.com/sailbook/images/scale_400x300_SriLankaFishingBoat.jpg
so it must be Sri Lanka you are moving to, not Thailand..
hope that’s okay :)
JIM…
you may be right…i am simply not sure…but, i do feel two things (1) the original $700. price tag will drop to $100. or less very quickly as do all electronic devices..but particularly this one since the demand may go way way up…and (2) if not the Apple tablet, something similar …had i bet on Apple back when i originally believed in Apple i would be a rich man….mostly they’ve done stuff right and no company has anticipated consumer desires better…they have literally created desire..products nobody demanded..products they just made up….just imagine so much information and entertainment on your iphone transferable to your tablet transferable to your wall sized flat screen is too much to resist…movies, stories in depth beyond what any print magazine could do, documentaries, music, books, etc etc…again, does not preclude your vinyl 78’s, your print collection, your paintings, and your favorite books…just adds to your overall awareness and education ..that way you will know which hard copy books to buy that you may not know about otherwise…also imagine hard copy mags and special edition books ordered off the content presented on line….just a thought…
GORDON L
I use Boinx FotoMagico software for creating slideshows with audio. Then, if you want, you can export your MM piece into QuickTime movie, HD movie, YouTube video and a bunch of other platforms. I’ve found it to be very user friendly.
Of course I learned about it from DAH and Anton back on Road Trips. So what else is new!
Patricia
ERIC…
you are one of the very few truly instinctive color photographers i have had in my workshops over the years…i am talking out of dozens and dozens of students..sure many shoot color, but few handle as do you..even from the beginning you had this flair that i rarely see particularly from a photographer who is a part-time shooter… a man with a day job….i do not mean part-time in terms of interest or dedication, simply in terms of time left over after job and family…
IMANTS…
“Dear Mr Tablet content providers will be king and content viewers will become content providers for content providers who are king as content viewers will slip into history”….
funny/sad….maybe come true
Patricia, Emcd, thanks, I’ll check them out.
Fun read
http://blog.melchersystem.com/2009/12/03/monkey-business-for-real/
ERICA,
Early morning in Belgiun,…grey…cold…I think I like your dream…where can I sign???? By the way, I almost died in one of these boats in Thailand way back…went on a trip with my wife on our own after talking with a fisherman and the motor of this tiny boat broke down in the middle of the sea and then we found ourselves in a rainy season storm…. so please please reassure me that the boat and the warm climat is a vision of my future :) as opposed to my past…. I will hope for the later and I promise to invite you if this comes true (Burn feels like Dineyland today, a place where dreams come true!!! :):):)
Cheers,
Eric
Eric, most interesting to read how you look for colour first, then the moment or situation: for me the moment comes first; although I may visit a place at a certain time of day in order to influence the colour. Your boxing essay is one of my favourites posted here thus-far. I believe that Bruce Davidson did another essay in colour on flowers – quite a few photographs taken in the South of France?
Speaking of content, the Apple Tablet sounds great. As David said, “stories in depth beyond what any print magazine could do” … but will this happen, or will we see something similar to 24-hour news broadcasting where the same soundbites are repeated every 20 minutes. As someone said earlier; first you must have something to say.
I may hold out for the electronic paper: you can fold that up in your pocket.
Mike.
http://2point8.whileseated.org/2009/11/27/publication-launches/
“There’s a new bi-annual magazine dedicated to street photography, called PUBLICATION. Nick Turpin’s brainchild, PUBLICATION features unbound photos, essays (and no ads!) and I’m looking forward to getting my hands on a copy.”
DAH,
Thought you might find this interesting with your close association with the Spanish Diaspora.
O&M (ad agency) capitalizes on the legendary name of Elliot Erwitt.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/03/business/media/03adco.html?_r=3&ref=media
you can see some of the images here http://seepuertorico.com/
To my mind I presume and hope Elliot received a bucket load for this, I am not sure if it has done him proud though. Advertising is advertising at the end of the day, if you are going to do the work there are very few clients who let you shoot and edit what you want. There’s the rub receive the mega wonga but shoot to brief.
Would be interested in your thoughts.
Cheers
Ian
Re the previous post, the pics seem in the genre, of that previously discussed, “travel photography”
Ian
MIKE R
you are confusing Bruce Davidson with Dennis Stock…Dennis lived in France for awhile and did the flower series….
IAN AITKEN..
the revival of this Puerto Rico campaign for Elliott is a good one for sure…but not so atypical as you may think….if you go to http://www.magnumad.com and click on “tearsheets” you will see that many of us do in fact edit and are given proper credit for some of our ad work…i.e. i do get involved in the concepts and productions of my ad work..see Bravo, Nikon, Lavazza, Ford trucks, etc etc….yes, ad work is ad work, but some of it is better than others….
yes, much of Elliott’s take does seem to fall into the “travel photography” concept and i am sure this is the intent from the client..that is what they do..promote tourism/business….i do think it is amazing that a man in his mid-eighties is still in demand for new production….maybe Elliott cannot move quite as fast as in his youth, and maybe the edit was at times a bit pedantic, but there were of couple of Erwitt classics in there too…
DAH, thanks for that magnumad link! It was fantastic to see how ‘street photography’ style magnum photographers (among others) have adopted their signature styles into advertisements… I think this could/will be one route where I would like to go.
A couple of paying jobs came by recently so, I grabbed the chance to take a few items off my wish-list of photo-books. The first two to arrive were DAH’s “Divided Soul,” and Craig J. Barber’s “Ghosts in the Landscape: Vietnam Revisited.”
Most of you probably already own the first one… as for the second one, it’s a beautifully printed book of b&w pinhole pictures of Vietnam as seen by an excellent pinhole photographer and Vietnam veteran.
http://www.photoeye.com/bookstore/citation.cfm?catalog=ZC732&i=&i2=&CFID=6012349&CFTOKEN=62628482
PETRI….
yes, i always have a whole lot of fun doing these ad jobs…i would not want advertising photography as a whole lifestyle , but once or twice per year i get a kick out of it and they pay for all of my other personal projects that may have no financing…
The new essay just doesn’t seem very interesting. Didn’t get any connection with the people, just a bunch of typical photos of bashed roundy round cars and rural folks messin’ with cars. Video might have been interesting, but the essay doesn’t work at all for me.
Hi David,
I too think it’s great that photojournalists are utilized for ad campaigns, it brings the genre to a wider audience. Don mcCullin’s ads for the met police in London were ground breaking, ward winning and inspired me no end whilst I was an assistant same with Salgardo’s work for Volvo. It doesn’t really worry me that photojournalists do ad work as you say it’s good money and helps fund other projects. One Guy I worked for used to do big location ad jobs, chevvy,toyota, etc etc, to fund a documentary he wanted to make, built his own edit suite and sunk 100’s of thousands into the project.
Sure it’s good for Elliot to be wanted for his work when still in his 80’s and good for Magnum, I don’t want to be perceived as being too prissy or precious about this, I just think with such a high profile campaign and his name mentioned so prominantly that the younger generation or people unaware of his skill will click through to his website or look up his other work to see his full talent and not just be left wondering “whats so special about this guy.”
Cheers
Ian
WTF Jim? maybe you need to get out of your PRIUS hybrid!
Sorry dude but this essay just took me back 30 years to where my most treasured possesion was a green chunk of fibreglass from a Corvette Stingray that landed at my feet after a 3 car pile up at Lagoon Park Speedway.
Everything about this essay is ABOUT the people in the photos! and a bloody good job done!
JAKE – I loved your essay! I know I’m comeing from a history of petrol and grease but also as someone whose a shooter and grew up around guys who could do amazing things in cars and yet could’nt sign their own name , you nailed it man!
Please get in contact!
JIM…
yea, i knew the snapshot style, flash on camera, look of this would not appeal to many….still i imagined that this “look” actually reflected the good ole’ boy nature of this story and of the folks who run hard on these dirt tracks…a really professional slick look at these same people might have looked better in one way, but might have destroyed the reality of it all in another…in any case,i imagine you will not buy this book!
IAN…
sure i understand that..and i am sure Elliott would agree…on his way to the bank!! i do think that most viewers understand that advertising is what it is…hopefully they will also check Elliott’s archive…Elliott is a very practical man….because of his history and having lived through the Great Depression (no, not this one, the other) Elliott , despite his great financial success, will take whatever job comes his way….i am serious..he will take a $250. head shot for New York Magazine if he is not busy with something else…it is not in his nature to turn down a job …need has nothing to do with it….he simply remembers no jobs….
David the Lavazza ad looks like cadaques, great place did some stuff there for Rough Guides, I have some shots from the very same perspective buried on a hard drive, heading off now to take my 3 year old son to ballet, might have time after the w/e to dig them out.
Cheers
Ian
When can we get Uncle Elliott on Burn?
GLENN…
you may or may not remember i did a story for NG on stock car racing….what fun!! besides meeting all the superstars i most enjoyed the coverage on the short track dirt tracks where they all learned their trade before getting mega rich with sponsors and the bigtime NASCAR events…my favorite story of all time is when in a crazy moment of voyeurism i took my Avis rental car (paid for by Natgeo) out on the dirt track and raced around with some of these guys…after the big event…man i went into some kind of other zone and for a few minutes did not care whether i destroyed my rental car or not…the crowd went crazy…somebody finally waved a yellow flag and got me off the track….shhhhhhh, the NG accountants might be reading this..
Ok, Uncle Elliott coming right up…good idea
IAN…
yes, Cadaques, home of Salvador Dali on the Costa Brava……model hired from Barcelona….ahhhh yes, Spain in spring…….Tri-X…Leica…great seafood….my only direction from the art director was “we need sensuality, with a cup of coffee somewhere in the picture…you pick the model, the country, the mood”…….hmmmmm, ad shooting? ok by me!!
I do remember, and I also remember the time I wrote off a NEWS LTD falcon around Mt Panorama at Bathurst.
My family were big off road racers , tricked up 4×4’s, with surplus air force fighter seats welded to the arse of series 3 landrovers.
i thought jake’s stock car story was pretty good. a few repititions, but yeah the style reflected on the subjects well.
SHORT TRACK
At times it felt like the essay was more about
classism,
rather
than car racing…..
13 my fav…
***
Pingback: Photography Links Weekly: 12/04/2009 | Your Photo Tips
DAH,
I have found a source for hats, bags, backpacks, shirts etc that could work with BURN . The short version of this is that a percentage of sales would go to BURN. The quality is great and from the conversations I have had, the pricing would be reasonable. Do we need to talk?
Paul
Everything about this essay is ABOUT the people in the photos! and a bloody good job done!
————————————————
That’s the great thing about “snapshot” photography, family photography too, even what could be deemed an average, unimaginative shot still carries a story and can elicit an emotional response for some.
yet, here, with Jake’s essay, I think Capa’s famous words ring truer than the case for snapshot esthetics: I can’t help thinking the photos are “not that good”. I do not mean that in the absolute, but put against, and coming short from, what the text tells us about the photos:
…”…in order to capture the raw power and gritty determination of life on the short track. … Short Track puts readers in the passenger’s seat for an up close ride….”.
BURNIANS…vroommmmmmmmmmmmm
Start the engines…we are in the fast lane …fast track …fast everything
hmmmm…
POMARA,
I believe in you …if it’s not gonna work with DAH …count me in…I need a bag for my
books …of course …I am still waiting for some BURNED signed books …
BUT you know me …I am a civilian…I can wait :)))
WHAT a BEAUTIFUL day…Can you feel it BURNIANS ??? Did you submit, or no???
we are getting close…cause only together we can DO it.
P.S you photographers really enjoy talking…hmmm…
next debate,please… I got almonds, chestnuts and dry prunes…
KATIE,street fighter, myGRACIE,DAVIDB,our PATRICIA,MARKW,TOM,AKAKY,REIMAR,HERVE,BOBB,LASSAL,HAIK…
AUDREY,MICHAELK,ANDREWB,CHRISB,JOHNYV and G and D………………….
UNCLE ELLIOT is coming …to town !!!
My apologies HERVE…one more post and I am out …:)))
DO AS HARVEY BUT…my suggestion..DON’T, I repeat..
D.rive A.s HARVEY
D.ance A.s HARVEY
LOVE to ALL…
Uncle Elliott and you know who, courtesy of Anton Kusters:
http://www.pbase.com/uc/image/119986142/original
PAUL..
sure…let’s talk about this…i mean if someone needs a bag or hat anyway, why not have it be a Burn hat or bag? and you know well i have always wanted to be a bag designer over all other things!! i want one myself….i think you have my skype info…call me in the morning..
DAH,
I just sent you an email.
P
Hey everybody … I just wanted to remind you of the date.
Totally nice discussions going on here, hope I can rejoin soon.
:))
Lassal
I had completely no time. I will do it tomorrow. No time for thoughts even :)
David, Ian…
Cadaques was not actually Dali’s home, he worked there often, but lived in Port Lligat, a little village just around the peninsular. His home is well worth a look, he bought a little terrace of fishing houses (one by one) and developed them and their grounds. Absolutely stunning and well worth a visit if you haven’t been already!?… Cadaques is such a beautiful town. I grew up visiting for family holidays. One of the singles on my site was shot in the town a couple of years ago and the “Fairground Graveyard” triptych is from Rosas (just down the road). I Hope to get back and enjoy a glass of red on the beach soon! Cheers!
Lassal, thanks for the reminder. Hope to send to you tomorrow or early Sunday :-)
Marci, Justin, … and some others :)
yes pleeeeease!!!
If there really is a time issue, please contact me via email.
info(at)lassal(dot)de
we are all counting on you!
JAMES,
are you talking about Number 9 in your single images …???
glass of red and blue and yellow …whatever on me…:)))
LASSAL,
WHATNOTTOLOVE !!!
Back to the BURNing submissions … VIVAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
DAH, ALL.
If I may pat myself on the back…
I suggested that Jake Mendel submit his work to burn when I met him in Santa Fe recently.
I posted about it here at the time and included a link to his work.
Glad to have produced a “hookup.” :))
I’m curious why Jake would choose to close off comments.
Essay is a good one for sure… and was smiling through it thinking boy I’m gonna be in a minority liking this :) Maybe like the guys say you have to have been there… The ones which capture it are the wide shots with the maniacs hammering around in huge bleak spaces and hardly anyone there watching – a strange ritual among themselves almost… and then swearing and laughing at the end of all the effort – “junk”.
Of course, American and Aussie stock-car racing is fine, but to experience the true brainlessness of it you gotta do it somewhere COLD… Yorkshire in November… sheesh
Civi… did you just annoint me a burnian? I think I just grew a couple of inches… Must have a camera around here somewhere…
Mark, Jake, if you’re out there,
Yes, the essay is a good one. Fun stuff. I’m in two minds about it, but in the end, I’m a fan of straight forward story-telling, and this is a good example. Strange, but the essay, and the style, reminded me of Bill Owens “suburbia” Honest pictures that just tell the story.
Civ’ Yep, #9. Blue? I’ll take a pint!
Wendy, I’m curious what you mean by “classism” in the terms of this essay? Who is doing it? The photographer? The subjects? The viewers? Everyone?
Or did you mean classisism? Like the trouble with classisists? They look at a tree and that’s all they see. So they paint a tree?
What is an honest picture?
CATHY…
pat, pat…..i do not think i have ever met Jake and never saw this work before he submitted here…thanks for sending Jake our way….
GORDON
yes, Bill Owens is a benchmark for this style…only difference is of course that Bill was doing a self portrait of sorts….i do not know if Jake is a driver himself…probably not or he would have said so…
several photographers published here have chosen the “no comment” option for reasons that are their own…i have gone back and forth in my own mind all along as to whether comments on the featured essay are appropriate…..the jury is still out on whether this is a good idea or not…we will discuss this during our upcoming meeting in nyc and your opinion is of course most welcomed…
I thought this may be of interest (Glenn will love it!) A 2004documentary called “Kaikohe Demolition” about a demolition derby in Kaikohe, Northland, NZ.
The film was made on a shoestring and the derby is also VERY grass roots. If you watch the youtube link you’ll get an idea of the doco. A real slice of NZ rural life…
The doco was a huge hit here, because it showed many NZers a slice of life they didn’t know existed. After all; ¼ of our population live in one city, Auckland.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xa3vpf8p-iA
The first 10 minutes can be seen here;
http://www.nzonscreen.com/title/kaikohe-demolition-2004
David
No problem if someone opts for “no comments”. Their choice, though it is one of my favourite features on Burn.
The Kaikohe Demolition story is one of those you dream of finding. Full of characters and reasonably unknown!
michael w
hi… when I write I am always writing about how the images speak to me, as a viewer… when I wrote classism, I was referring to the people featured in the photo essay as being lower income. With this essay, I felt more of a sense of poverty, rather than selfless determination to keep their dream of driving alive. which, b/c of the text I thought I would see.. It seemed to showcase and focus on the lack of, instead of their dream and desire to drive. Trophies on the floor was sad to me, not a feeling of hope or yes you can be the next nascar driver…. it made me feel like shit, and think ‘poor guy doesn’t even have a table to put his trophies on….’ BECAUSE he’s POOR, thus his class…. Thought I ‘d see more passion and determination, regardless of income… b/c that comes from within… doesn’t matter how much money you have….** perhaps the glass is always half full for me…. has to be….** Don’t know if this answers your question or makes any sense?!? So hard to articulate my thoughts….. *** W
MARK W,
do u love the visual stimulation?
do you love sleeping in other people couches?
do you love taking pictures?
do you love art?
do you love cultural exchange?
do you love reading books?
do you love hugging people?
do you love cooking for other people?
do you love social interaction?
do you love interculturality
do you love adventure?
do you love helping (giving a hand or something)?
do you LOVE…
Yes,it’s very hard to articulate my thoughts…lifetime struggle
( WENDY, you are doing good)
BUT yes, of course you are a BURNIAN …MARKW …emerging civilian, photographer…
give us some data…!!!
JAMES C… once a British, always a …BURNIAN…:)))
I need more BURNIANS …I LOVE YOU ALL…tick-talk, tick-tack
Don’t drink and drive…even if you are …multitask …
I liked Jake’s pictures, thought the b/w grittiness suited the subject, but I’d have preferred to see more of the men that have this passion and less of the children who somehow seemed more prominent.
Something to continue with maybe?
Jake I just viewed your photo-eye salon and I’m confused now about your presentation here.
There were some fantastic pictures that we haven’t seen here that really show the atmosphere and passion of the events.
I’m curious on how you came to the selection for burn?
VICKY
i am curious also…actually there was just one picture in there that i wish Jake had selected for Burn…of course there is always a natural reaction when you look at one edit and then see another , to think the second selection somehow better…anyway, look at all of it carefully for a long time..you might see Jake did the right thing all along
David, I was viewing the ‘at an angle’ slide presentation
so my view was obviously awfully skewy (and not as jake would like them to be seen) but for me there were several that I’d have included.
I’d imagine that out of the 70 odd in the book we’d probably all come up with different edits.
:)
Thanks Wendy, I’m glad I asked. Without your comment, I wouldn’t have seen that in that essay. I appreciate the depth of your insights. If they were easy to articulate, they probably wouldn’t be quite so interesting.
Ross , I saw that doco , loved it!
VICKY..
yes, that is right..and i saw the same gallery as did you…..i try to go with the photographer’s edit if at all possible..some photographers are in dire need of editing and they usually know it and so i try to help them out..others have strong views on how they want to be seen, so i usually go with their version, as in the case of Jake…
Heh, I like strong views so I totally get that, I was just excited to see the others as well!
“Driving a Nascar is like dancing with a chainsaw”. –Cale Yarborough
“A mule will labor ten years willingly and patiently for you, for the privilege of kicking you once.”–William Faulkner
i loved short track (the essay), ….i love short track (the reality)….
a imagine it but a tease for the book ;)))
my bone picked has to do with a simple, but obdurate fact: that in a medium that necessitates conversation, (internet) why the hell would a photographer who photographs something as filled with language and holler, which always in it’s anticipation and its aftermath, IS defined by sharing (talking) prohibit comments/chatter under the pics…….it is a remarkably odd decision….
as much as i too have grown skittled by too much noise of comments, one of (good and ill) lovely truths of seeing words react to pics, is that the pics meet, head in the bank on, with thoughts about them…..isnt the web nothing but an extension of our own mouthed moments? ;)
to shut down chatter is a major disappointment….
all work lives in the swollen river of conversation, and that aint more true that on the web….
too bad, book or no book.
i miss the growl and howl of a track, long short oval stretched, all of it….
i do miss seeing pics and how they unbundle in the minds of others….
jake, your thoughts on all that? :))
bb
p.s. “Short Track” would make a lovely companion with Chris’ “After the Storm”…
they’re cousins, pictorially, for sure!
bb
BOB…
when i wrote an email to Jake several days ago to confirm publication as we always do, and confirm his desire to have no comments (he is not the first), i received no reply….he may not check email regularly or he may be traveling….i have no idea, but he is the first not to respond to emails at all….while i do offer the no comments option to any photographer, it is a shame when they take that option imo as per your comment…my offer is made to simply give photographers freedom in every way…choice is always my first choice…
David:
totally understand…and totally (who if not I ;)) respect Jake’s freedom to do whatever he wishes :))…but of all the types of essays that should allow for conversation ‘Short Track’ is one…..not because it’s a book, not because it’s at Burn, but because Racing is so much defined by the love of talking about it…my love of racing was the first of many shocks to M when we first got hitched….just as every part of me ached, badly, the day Dale Sr. left that world in the homestretch bank at Daytona…..the only time my younger brother and i were silent, for a long time, after a race…
to embrace the internet (for good or ill) is to allow it to be what it is…..and silent it aint…
a book, yes, the silence skulling around ur head as u read/look…
an internet essay….not
and I imagine (juding by the Sante Fe vid) that Jakes loves to hear and tell a good story :)))…
and for that, the silence under the essay is disappointing…
but not the pics…
but…
to each their own…
b
I read an article the other day, I don’t remember where, that argued it often proved to be a bad idea for artists to allow comments on there work. Apparently some people have been hurt when curator types or potential employers googled an artist and found withering comments. I don’t doubt that’s true in some cases, but overall I think it’s a missed opportunity on many levels for artists to try to shut down discussion of their work. And the flip side of missed opportunities is that the viewer is likely to wonder why the artist doesn’t allow comments and the answers that spring to mind aren’t always the most flattering.
BOBB,
where have you been…
you are such an articulate writer …
VIVA !!!
BOB…
agreed…
“Life is a sum of all your choices.”
Albert Camus quotes
MICHAEL WEBSTER…
i can see it both ways…for a work in progress from an emerging photographer seeking advice and counsel from a peer group, then comments could prove most valuable…as in a workshop environment….or classroom…most of the essays on Burn fall into this category of work in progress…on the other hand, here is a photographer with a done deal…a published book..i can imagine that this photographer at that point might not be interested in comments…perhaps even based on reading comments on the essays of others previously published and felt them either irrelevant or not constructive..and some photographers are simply thin skinned or just do not care for the opinions of others..again, hence the option..
for sure if we do have at some point sponsored commission work on Burn , i doubt the sponsors will want comments under them..too risky for the sponsor perhaps to be embarrassed by the renegade commentator who for whatever reason would want to monkey wrench the whole effort with a negative non-constructive comment… this would not be much of a problem for us because all we have to do here is set up a separate works in progress section where comments could abound….interaction is the net…one way or another we will have it…
““Life is a sum of all your choices.””
No way, as none of us chooses wheres/he starts out and how…
Michael :))
i think when a photographer or writer or blogger or facebooker ;) chooses to inhabit the web (as we all have), then i think all that goes with that decision should be embraced…as a photographer and writer myself, there have been moments when i have written and exposed my life and my emotions, and embarrassing wished i had not, as internet can create all kinds of odd interpretations, but….i think, as a photographer who has published work, on Burn and elsewhere, that has had a life off the internet (in galleries and magazines0 and on the internet, I think it is always a great opportunity…even if it makes you frustrated….but ‘Short Track’ is a strong essay, even in it’s shortened form, and one of the real pleasures of publishing work on the web, is to see the reaction and to engage in a dialog….it has always benefited me as a photographer, which beyond everything else is the real value of the web….an opportunity to engage with what others think….
the great thing (for me) about ‘short track’ is not only the celebration of that life, but more cleanly, the celebration of the passion and oddity of racing…for me, the real choice to publish on the web has always been the opportunity to share (beyond the pictures/essay) my own thinking about something i did, even to share with others the failures and the ‘success’ of that…and i think that IS the value of why we choose to publish on the web….it is that conversation that doen’t exist in the silence of a book, magazine, etc…and it provides insight….anyway, …and by the way, i really enjoyed listening to Jake speak about his work in that Santa Fe vid….which is what, i imagine, made my disappointment that much richer….and since ‘Cut Outs’ is a dialogue about lots of stuff, i was just saddened, as here, it may get lost in the shuffle of other discussions….i still return to older essays, including my own (which is painful now to look at) for both the pics and the discussion below the essays…
Civi: …:)))…well, lots to do… family responsibilities and working on a book :))….
cheers
bob
BOBB,
“… the only time my younger brother and i were silent, for a long time…”
as PANOS would have said…
hmmm…I am not gonna second that…:)))
LOVE to ALLL
P.S MR.HARVEY…BURNIANS are kinda busy
BUT we are all happy that you are around …
NNTR… We are so lucky …!!! ante, VIVA again…
VIVA…EVA !!!
what about that
“It is by chance that we met, by choice that we became friends.”
I LOVE ALLLL
P.S copy and paste by CHOICE …
The circle track racers I have encountered here in rural America have not been very nice guys. They have been rough characters who spent money their family did not have to play with cars and drink too much beer. Not people to celebrate, that’s for sure. Perhaps those depicted in the essay were fine, upstanding members of the community, though.
Civi.. hmm, nope, we met because of the choices we made, chance is that we both made the same choice, and yes, to become friends is indeed a choice, one of the most important to make, every time.. at least for me :)
Thank you,
“…we met because of the choices we made…”
EVA quotes
MICHAEL…BOB
i have not looked at the stats on Burn lately, but the last time i checked, less than 10% of the readership of Burn even reads the comments section and fewer than 1% of those ever leave a comment…so while i do not disagree with your analysis Bob for how you view the net and all that it offers, it is still quite obviously a minority view…the reasons for this could be many…when i talk one on one with Burn readers as i travel, many tell me they do not read the comments because so many of them just seem irrelevant or are simply not really a constructive critique..”yes” or “no” votes so to speak do not a critique make…i am sure you would agree….yours Bob ARE constructive or offer insight, and i am sure were all of the comments of that caliber , then perhaps more readers would either jump in or at least read them…as you know, this has been an ongoing discussion here..
personally, i like the comments section under the essays and here in Dialogue and if i am not traveling or immersed in a workshop, i am one of the minority using this space to either read, answer questions, or offer suggestions or insights…pull the best of our collected comments together and it would be a tour de force of public forum….like all forums, editing would be required…but, that is just the nature of forum…
cheers, david
thought y’all would enjoy this….
i know David has spoke a bunch on lighting, including how to use a beer bottle (Dos XX’s for amber, Heineken for green, Corona for, well, clear light) to help a flash, but, i think we could all use a bit from this cat……one of my idols…and he’s still damn clear-headed, even at 377 years young
enjoy y’all
running away again to finsih something on deadline…
http://strobist.blogspot.com/2009/11/beers-with-vermeer.html
b
Jim: :))
many many photographers (fill in the blank: writers, teachers, barbers, cops) that i have met have also “not been very nice guys. They have been rough characters who spent money their family did not have to play with cars and drink too much beer..”…..and many many photographers (fill in the blank: etc) ARE great people too….track racing is like all other aspects of life: the good the bad the ugly the pretty…..i’ve met racers (and photographers) who i couldnt stand to spend 30 seconds with and racers (and photographers) with whom I’d spend the rest of my days with if i could…..any profession (u name the profession) that requires passion and intensity has that….doesn’t it :))
David: :)) totally hear u…and i dont read everything…and of course, i write less and less, which is just a shift in priorities (to get the real life work done and out into the world!)…but, i think even the nonsense that comes up (including my own nonsense) has value, at least it had/has for me…and yes, most never write and need not…but i think ‘silencing’ folk is, unfortunately, a misstep…not because it lessens the essay one iota, but because it is a lost opportunity….there might be someone out there who might just say one think that becomes a pin-prick of light that stays with both the photographer and the readers…….i also place the value of discussion at Burn one of it’s MOST important assets……and ultimately, i think the reason for it’s success….:))…
ok, gotta fly…
cheers
b
David:
JIM…
hmmmmm…i am surprised at your experience, because the dirt track racers i met and the super NASCAR drivers i met during my year or so of photographing them every day seemed to me to be very nice guys overall….i have no idea of the family budget, but usually the wives and kids of these drivers i met seemed to be very much into it…fans drank a lot of beer, but the good drivers, no…almost every young boy (and some girls) whose daddy was driving around out there, wanted to be a race car driver when they grew up too…some of the family names like Ernhardt, Petty, Allison, etc are surely testament to race car nepotism for better or worse….
Hi David, yes I was thinking along the same lines. Everybody has their reasons and it’s best to respect them. The art is what’s important. BTW, did you get the email I sent? Normally I wouldn’t ask, but I can imagine you might be deluged and could easily miss something.
But personally, yea Bob, I’m with you. I like the rough and tumble.
Regarding the celebration of those characters, I’ve spent a lot of time (used to race dirt bikes) in the rural motor sport milieu (though I would never say milieu there) and found the people to be as morally diverse as any other group. Many are small business owners with disposable income or highly skilled workers in the trades. They pretty much have to be to participate. Those engines aren’t cheap and they don’t fix themselves. And, as the essay shows, there’s a strong family element in these racing sub-cultures. So I’d be careful making blanket statements about their lifestyles. There is most definitely a range.
David/Jim:
that’s my experience too….Racing IS FAMILY…period…anyone who has been around it, known the racers, knows that….as my little brother (who lives in charlotte) can tell u: racin’ is about family…and i’d sure as hell hang out with them more than i would lots of other groups…running, b
BOB..
agreed…and please know that i am not “silencing” anyone…who said that?? from Road Trips to now, i have had an open forum….i do not delete anyone….after we set up a simple registration system the trolls seemed to go their own way….but even they had a place on my forums…..comments will stay…i was simply putting them in perspective….
david:
please know that i didn’t mean you or burn ‘silenced’ anyone…that’s the last thing that you or anyone ever does here :)))))…i meant, that the essay was silenced by Jake, and that’s totally cool since that’s what he requested, preferred….i meant under the essay it is silenced….
i believe many many viewers return to older essays..again and again (i do for sure, as photographer and as a reader of Burn)..most to look at the pics, but some to re-read some of the thinks under the attendant dialog….but i totally understood what you wrote, no worries….
b
Jim
I think many of us spend more money than we should feeding their passions instead of their families. Photographers and musicians come to mind.
I did like the last essay a lot…
But…
As for the track racing itself… well just like any other competitive sport (with motor sports being the cherry on top) I just can’t avoid the thought of *what-a-waist*… the dumbest of these guys have a better understanding of mechanical engineering (designing and building useful stuff almost out of thin air) that I’ll ever have, and sadly they put all their time, energy and resources into running around in circles—literally!!… I just can’t escape the thought of where we might be as a species if all this energy was channeled towards inventions and problem solving, instead of… well… this…
Disclaimer… I have shot a rally in the past and I do have a project about 4weel off-road on the back-burner… but I do see these subjects more like a sociological phenomenon to document rather than a cool thing to follow and promote…
the renegade commentator who for whatever reason would want to monkey wrench the whole effort with a negative non-constructive comment
—————————-
Hmmmm…. I wonder who could that be? Jim, any idea? :-))))))))))
dirt track racers i met and the super NASCAR drivers….very nice guys overall
—————————————————–
Maybe the only commonality between those and the short track drivers Jim knows are engines. I mean that within one range of activities (here, riding/driving vehicles with engines then), the sub categories in each can be made of very different people and backgrounds.
Regarding people reading or participating in comments, it is simply not related to BURN, or the quality or inanity of what we write. All websites with a forum are like that. For ex.: 1% participants, 10% non-participant forum readers, the 89% left being interested solely in the website contents from its owner(s), with plenty in that % being curious once or twice, not repeat visitors that much.
The numbers you give us, David, confirm that, save that I do think BURN is doing very well on core (repeat) visitors.
I only do participate because it’s FUN!, I enjoy it (and participate little when I enjoy it less), and because out of this net thing, real friendships can be realized, which means a lot to me, a lot more than reaching out as a photographer, which I am not… at least not before well after my death :-))).
HERVE,
“…because out of this net thing, real friendships can be realized, which means a lot to me, a lot more than reaching out as a photographer…”
HERVE quotes
HERVE , you are not a Civilian therefore you are an (emerging) photographer !!!
and since I am a MASS AUDIENCE…no problem , I count for 98%…!!!
P.S if I don’t hear from KATHLEEN FONSECA in the next 48 hours I will have to send SPACECOWBOY in the
Costa Rica area for …searching…LOVE …I have and other Wanted BURNIANS on my list …
Comments …
I think part of the publishing in the internet is conversation about the work. It is my decision to accept or dismiss what others write about it, but I do like the dialogue in principle. One should diffentiate between feedback and dialogues. I would not reply to feedback, as it always feels like justifing. If there is a dialogue, then it is even more fun. (Most of the time, one learns more about the commenter by reading the comments)
…and – if I don’t let comments happen to my work, people comment somewhere else.
Even if it hurts, I like it in my face instead of my back.
Big companies even spend a lot of money to do “media monitoring” – to receive feedback about their products and brands. (And start interacting, if they think they have to)
HERVE…
i do not think any comment that i have ever read by Jim would be the monkey wrench to which i refer…i was thinking more of trolls who really say nasty things…folks who simply do not like an essay or a picture and say so are well within their rights and the parameters of any forum…i often disagree with Jim on some issues, but have always defended his right to speak…i shall continue to do so…
i assume you are quite correct in writing that all internet forums have about the same percentages as Burn with regard to comments..yes, we have high numbers in both core repeat visitors and in time spent on the site….
THOMAS…
you have the right attitude…you and i both took some criticism for publishing your essay…some thought it funny (mostly northern Europeans) and others thought it trite…you weathered the critique well and have stayed here with us…big man….it will be interesting to see where you go now as a photographer…and yes straight up is always better than a smile to your face and then a knife in your back…many thanks for sticking around as a valuable contributor…
cheers, david
and southern Europeans and my African friends too …
david alan harvey
December 5, 2009 at 3:04 pm
THOMAS…
you have the right attitude…you and i both took some criticism for publishing your essay…some thought it funny (mostly northern Europeans) and others thought it trite…you weathered the critique well and have stayed here with us…big man….it will be interesting to see where you go now as a photographer…and yes straight up is always better than a smile to your face and then a knife in your back…many thanks for sticking around as a valuable contributor…
cheers, david
My apologies…for the mess
BUT my comment goes there…
“…you have the right attitude…you and i both took some criticism for publishing your essay…some thought it funny (mostly northern Europeans)…”
…and southern Europeans and my African friends too …
Ok,goodnight from Grecoland …
Attention:
Greek Photographers please stay safe and away from Exarhia …
I repeat avoid Athen’s center By all means…
David,
I hope from time to time I can contribute with a view from other areas, like the business I am in.
As a photographer – I am practicing. :) Last week in London, I tried to become invisible on the street, and was also working on my speed… becoming invisible is easier.
…and for my next essay, I am sure we’ll both make sure it has the right quality to be published ;-)
Cheers,
Thomas
HMMMN comments, verbal diarrhea, whatever, once the work is posted for the public to see the author loses ownership and it’s……………… http://www.etrouko.com.au/iman.htm
IMANTS…
you are a trip!! it has been such a pleasure to get to know you…our skype chats flat out fun/serious….anyway, set to run your series of singles….just get em in…..
… jeeeez no wackas , sorry for wasting 6 hours by sleeping …….last night’s dream http://www.etrouko.com.au/imiimages.htm
THODORIS..
i have thought the same thing about stock car racing particularly after driving through heavy freeway traffic to get to the speedway where everybody gets out of their cars after hours in a traffic jam, pay 100 bucks to go sit down and then watch cars go round and round stacked up pretty much as the ones out on the freeway…but the fans are fanatics, i mean fanatics…they get a lot of pleasure out of it and they are rednecks(affectionate term, i am one) to be sure but it is generally a very well behaved crowd, and as Bob said, a real family outing…i suspect some would think hitting a little white ball into a hole might be a strange way to spend the afternoon or moving wooden pieces around on a checkered board for hours or any number of activities that any of us do that may seem strange to others…
cheers, david
DAH,
Check your in-box. The proto is really GREAT.
P
any comment that i have ever read by Jim would be the monkey wrench to which i refer
————————————————–
“Tongue in cheek” ad lib on my part, David.
Yet, I did not quite pull Jim out of a hat… No one will contest that he has been, more than his share, doing “negative non-constructive” hatchet criticism under many essays. That was his trademark signature for quite a long while here, after all.
Herve, if I just don’t like an essay, there is no “constructive” criticism I could offer that would rehabilitate it for me. So I just say I don’t like it, that it’s crap, whatever. I’ve seen folks post long, convoluted posts here taking 200 very carefully chosen “constructive” words to say they think an essay is crap. “Well, yes, this essay would be great sir if you just changed everything about it.” What’s the point?
I’ve just been looking over the Burn archive. What an amazing ride.
David, are there some essays missing? I know the White family is gone, but I can’t seem to find Daria’s self portraits, and I’m not sure if I am missig anything else.
DAH:
First, I quote you from November 17:
david alan harvey
November 17, 2009 at 2:56 am
FROSTFROG…
that cat with Charlie in the first picture really looks just like Simone, including the collar color..hmmmm….i take your words to heart….the struggle..survival…however, i am sure you agree it is 90% psychological…if you get yourself on a personal project that just soaks up all your time, something good will come out of it…i am struggling along with everyone else, but somehow it feels good to me…in the sense that i know something will happen…get invented…patient revived…it will not be like what it was, but it will be something…. survival tactics breed invention and cunning….write me a private email, and i will answer with some thoughts…
cheers, david
Now: Considering the fact that I followed up your invitation an email, then two comments just in case that email got caught in your spam filter, and then another emai, I am beginning to lose hope that you will ever actually “answer with some thoughts…”
To a degree I do understand. You are doing such great work and are so incredibly busy that I am kind of amazed that you even took the time to make the invitation in the first. Still, I was looking forward to reading your thoughts, and so it has been a bit disappointing.
But here is what I will do – I can’t claim to be an emerging photographer, but I did recently undergo an emergence of sorts. I had been out on a job in what to me is familiar territory, following Eskimo whale hunters and such, when I fell off a chair in a high school cafeteria while seeking a higher angle, shattered my shoulder, and then had to be medivaced by air ambulance 850 miles from Barrow to Anchorage Alaska. After that, I could only take pictures with my left hand for many months. To make this a little easier, my kids bought me a pocket camera – a Canon G9 and I went nuts with it and completely fell in love. And so I emerged into a whole new vein of a photography, one in which I had to change my thinking about how to go about taking pictures.
So, when I get time, I will send you a pocket camera essay. You don’t need to run it in Burn, but maybe you will look at it and then find the time to respond. I will appreciate hearing from you.
It won’t happen this year. Early next, I hope.
I seriously considered opting for no comments, because my piece was more of a “done deal” than a work in progress, but I am so grateful to have had the chance to share it with you all and it felt, for me, too one sided to close the comments.
But I do understand why one may opt out. And yes, from my email inbox I can also verify that many people looking do not post on burn…and if you who I refer to are reading now, please know that I will write back, things have just been crazy busy.
DEAREST FROSTFROG,mate from the white end of the Universe,
in the BURNLAND we drink and eat, we are bombardized by photobombs, we debate, we send silents,
we cry,we do lots of stuff …
BUT the “key” to all this “harmony” is that we exercise patience…
…I am still waiting for my mates to respond …
…I am still waiting to be skyped …
…I even left the door of your Greek home open…
…the 98% of BURNIANS don’t even bother to read my posts …
BUT I am waiting …I am here though and I am waiting …cause I believe in YOU,you,you,you …
All of you …
Frogfrost…you strong…u are not afraid to share…be around
“…i am struggling along with everyone else, but somehow it feels good to me…in the sense that i know something WILL HAPPEN…get invented…PATIENT revived…”
DAH quote
P.S White frog…if you are tired of waiting…come south, I have hot cocoa with orange biscuits !!!
LOVE
James chance, cadaques and the vista brava. Agreed James it is an amazing stretch of the Spanish coast. Love it to bits, yep Dali’s house is top notch.
Everyone who is in London if you have the chance today, there is a great exhibition running @ 43 bellenden road peckham. Put on by lensmodern. It is basically the archives/personal work of some of the best shooters in England. Previuosly unseen archives etc, I think you would be hard pressed to find a broader collection brilliant work. All the photogs are there too.
Cheers. Ian
Goodmorning from Greece…
PANOS, if you see NIKOS …tell him …HAPPY NAMEDAY from all the BURNIANS…
we drink to his health and to his new photo adventures …
LOVE to all…
EMCD, you rock …where are you BURNIANS ???and I miss my BURNED ladies …
VIVA !!!
HAIK you DAMAN, mate THANK YOU for all the tech help…and the inspiration
LASSAL… u are a killer combination
AITKEN,
for how many days … the exhibition …will be running ???
Any ideas???
Thank you, a civilian-mass audience – you have made me smile. I would love to come to your country and drink cocoa and eat orange biscuits.
If only…
Civi sorry for the late notice exhibition was yesterday and today Sunday only runs from 12 til 6pm
FROSTFROG,
there is no IF …only, yes lovely…
and then …
we can only see you melt …and there will be only frog…:)))
AITKIN,
…better late than ever…:)))
Please say I LOVE you to your family and to your friends and to the Universe…
I LOVE YOU ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
a civilian-mass audience
your posts give this site a special kind of soul.
whether a strong debate or just some chit-chat,
your posts always bring a lot of warmth into it.
feel hugged.
what’s not to love … and .. how’s the deadline?
Cheers,
Thomas
GORDON…
the only pieces of content pulled from Burn this last year were the White Family essay at the photographer’s request and the I.D. photos of the trafficked women that was up for just a few hours…Daria’s self portrait should be in the archive….
yes, a run through the archive should be enlightening for most….
FROSTFROG…
i spend several hours per day either skyping with or emailing readers from Burn if i am “on”…i have no idea how i have missed your emails, but if you saw my email box you might understand…nevertheless i will search now……am i searching frostfrog??
2 mins later….some burden here is on you frostfrog…make it easy for me to see any email from you…nothing when searching frostfrog…..3 mins later..ok, i got it….like most people i scan my emails looking for names i recognize(yours was not one) or for a header that says something like “you have just won the lottery”…in any case, it was easy for me in the last few weeks to miss some comments and some emails…if you read carefully you would see that i was traveling from mexico to d.c. to nyc to back to mexico to thailand etc etc…i do try to be attentive, but please realize i am not always sitting by my computer and in many circumstances do not have the net at all……in any case, i just wrote you a note…forgive, forgive…
THOMAS,
have you ever been hugged by a MASS AUDIENCE…hmmm…???
“…you big man…a valuable contributor…”
Jägermeister on you !!! VIVA …REIMAR …we are drinking …with moderation
BURNIANS,
tick-talk, tick-talk…cameras UP …time is …almost DOWN !!!
P.S I have a question…???
Can I call someone photodesigner…or there is no word like this …???
I wish I can articulate my words …
Note to self….all emails to DAH now have my “pen name” and a subject of “You and Burn have just Won the Lottery!”
Good morning from the bluegrass….
A.
Hey yall …
Civi is right: TIME IS ALMOST UP!
Still waiting for at least 40 of you!!!!!!!!!
Hurry, hurry, hurry!!!
Cheers and a big hug to you, Civi … Thanks.
L
maybe less … cannot check. Haik is asleep in the City of Angels.
gonna b 2moro lassal.. :o/
I’m all in!
LASSAL..
what in the world are you up to?
DAH …
“what in the world are you up to?”
I have to admit, I really wonder myself …
:-)))
I’m in!
“what in the world are you up to?”
I have to admit, I really wonder myself …
me too… :))
Marcin, MarkW, AndrewB, DavidB …
:-)
you are on the list …
I was talking to the REST out there!!!
Hello?! Anybody lurking?? I need a little bad concience feeling here and some quick decision taking.
Remember, Christmas is around the corner and Santa is watching! :-))
DAH, it does not make sense … sorry. :-)
No LASSAL…we have to explain …well…it goes like this…
MR.HARVEY ,
LASSAL and other BURNIANS are trying to help me with my project to help me with some underprivileged
kids in my area…
HAIK is helping with the tech stuff…PANOS here in Greece is gonna donate some pictures…and other
BURNIANS all over the world are helping out…
I have to THANK everyone …and LASSAL as a BURN lady is organizing …cause I am just a civilian and I need
help…blah,blah…as soon as we will need your help …yes, we now the door is open ,no key needed, cold beer in the fridge…blah,blah…we LOVE you DAH …hihihi
Can you see…I need help …to articulate my words…
HELP…blah, blah,blah
oh CIVI … :-))
Good morning BURN.
Just got a memo: days are 48 hours long.
but there is only one Double Day.
After that day – I am sending Civilian to your doorsteps for a rib-crushing hug. with consequences. :)
I NEEEEEED Hawaii. can you hear me, Hawaii?
S U B
<b?M I T
learn to be
FANATIC!
FANtASTIC … :)
yes, and it all started from you LASSAL …with your beautiful ideas .
and I know you are busy
and HAIK is extremely busy BUT you are all there …
and THANK you BURNIANS…
ok enough…
BACK to the regular program !!!:)))
Civi?
I’m all in Lassal…
you put your left foot in, you take your left foot out, you put your left foot in, and you shake it all about…you do the hokeypokey and you turn yourself around…THAT’S WHAT IT’S ALL ABOUT!
Civiperson
if you’re still here..am sending my regards sprinkled with love..feel i am just waking up after a long dream..am doing so much photography and also much sketching..no time to take time for Burn..but..art is a possessive controlling master. I hope you are well and thriving..will be back soonest hopest..you can see what i’ve been doing if you want at http://dyathink.blogspot.com and/or http://kathleenfonseca.blogspot.com And if you don’t want that’s cool too..will be back to check in on you..
hello ALL..including Simone the prego gatita..David’s gonna be an abuelo. Felicidades!
best
Kathleen
erica, hearing you sing that in my head made me laugh…and sing along.
that’s what it’s all about!
What not to love?
KATHLEEN…
nice to have you back, if only for a moment..yes, i can see you have been working and i think we should publish the best of this on Burn…actually, i wish i had seen it before you put a link here, but still it will be nice to run…let me know what you think…
ERICA..LASSAL..
you girls are up to no good i can tell…????????????
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8396693.stm
from athens with love..
( thanks michael K..for the link )
email from michael K:
“..Hey amigo!
Are you still in Athens?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8396693.stm
Looks like a photo op to me!
Peace…”
i just thought i should share my answer with my fellow burnians:
“..mike…yes im in athens… 2 nights ago around 2am, i got temporarily detained in Exarheia ( where the murder of the 15 year old occurred a year ago)…
Police searched me illegally …interrogated me…asked me to show them my photos through the camera…im glad i didnt have a film camera coz that would be instant arrest…viva digital…
Anyway…my american citizenship helped me…they let me go ..but my name is in the black list…if we catch u here again they said…you are going down…
Anyway…i just came back todayfrom the center of athens..i was very cautious …more than i wanted…yes..athens was burning once again today…
tear gas… beatings..blah blah…. i might go back again after midnight..although im not gonna hide it from u…im a little discouraged..:(..”
big hug
peace
What if the Hokey Pokey really is what it’s all about?
tom h
ha ha ha!!! what if……
jim p
I understand your comment under mimi’s essay… But for me his imagery was so energized and moved me…. I saw a story there, that needs to be developed…. Do you think there is no story there? I don’t think his captions helped… I thought people were coming out of a funeral till I read a wedding….. ** Thats why I was wondering about multimedia for him…. for his story telling…. his images were vibrant in B/W and its just his story that needs to be nurtured….. IMO of course :) curious what you think……
panos
careful my friend!!!
xox
Wendy, the artist painted a dark, sinister looking, B&W picture of events that didn’t seem by their nature to be dark and sinister. It’s almost like the artist’s personal feelings are coloring even bright events dark. If these photos had been shot in color, their power to connote rather than explain would have been lost.
WENDY…JIM
this will be an interesting discussion for sure…and now i wish the comments under the essay were open…think we should do it? there is a point at which the photographer/artist does interpret in a subjective way all material before him/her…nobody tells the whole “truth” about anything, but just a version of the truth with their own spin on it…for me, just the feeling of the ominous that is in this work is enough along with the captions which do enlighten some of the pictures…try to think in reverse…what should Mimi have photographed? a Mafia victim found dead by the cops? a Mafia boss having lunch? life in Sicily does appear normal at all times even knowing that there is a strong Mafia presence….maybe this is impossible to photograph…the Mafia neighborhood in New York, not far from me, is by all accounts the quietest safest neighborhood in New York…even the “effects” would be hard to picture, though easy to talk about…
OK Civi… you made me laugh again… some “data”, just for YOU…
>do u love the visual stimulation?
Far more, I sometimes think, than is good for me… I’m a member of a large section of burn readers – non-photographers coming here to learn something about photographic connoisseurship. The variety of the work here and the pearls among the comments give a glimpse of the scale of that project…
>do you love sleeping in other people couches?
If no room in other people bed ;)
>do you love taking pictures?
If being in the grip of a compulsion is the same as loving something. Whether the outcome is a success is another question entirely…
>do you love art?
Always have, but a couple of months ago I lost my long term job, which was a hell of a dispiriting thing, but only me relying on that income so also a hell of a chance to reassess and renew life’s purposes. That part is still a work in progress, but have spent some of the time since visiting some of Europe’s great art establishments with a long term ambition to see all existent works by certain particular painters. I feel like my outlook is changing all the time, which is a good way of knowing you’re alive… I’m a lucky fellow.
>do you love cultural exchange?
Only way to understand your own culture is by learning about others.
>do you love reading books?
Sometimes a compulsion and a love coincide…
>do you love hugging people?
Consider yourself HUGGED.
>do you love cooking for other people?
My signature dish is a chicken casserole with wine and I have a very large pan…
>do you love social interaction?
>do you love interculturality
>do you love adventure?
>do you love helping (giving a hand or something)?
>do you LOVE…
Only answer possible… WNTL??!! ;)
NOW, CIVI… and anyone else… I NEED SOMETHING FROM YOU. On Tuesday I’m leaving for a stay of six weeks or longer in a very civilized European capital that I know fairly well and intend to know better, and I will have a lot of free time. My previous photographs from there are travel photographs, and DAH HATES travel photographs. So…fully in the knowledge that this request lacks a certain integrity, I need you to do the hard work for me and give me a ONE WORD THEME. I will then enter a world of torment… like maestro said, “tired, scared, with [maybe] occasional moments of creative ecstasy,” producing my interpretation of that “civilian commission”.
Small condition – the word can’t be “burn”…. And I’d kinda prefer it not to be organized-crime related either, if that’s ok :)
Andrew B; “You and Burn have just Won the Lottery!”
You can’t be right because nearly every time I go to the mailbox there is a Reader’s Digest letter telling me that I am in the final few to win $200,000 in their lottery!!! :-))
David, my problem is that the artist, through her artist statement, effectively voids the actual content of the photos and virtually invites us fill that void with stereotypes. Because this appears to be photojournalism, I think that a reckless thing to do.
Herve, if I just don’t like an essay, there is no “constructive” criticism I could offer that would rehabilitate it for me
—————————–
Jim, I know. Remember this is all in relation to DAH’s guess that publishers might not see the need to risk comments of a negative, one-line dismissive nature under a featured book.
JIM…
i just do not see your stereotypes…stereotypes of what? Sicilians, the Mafia? Mimi (HE) shows us a picture of a Mafia prosecutor with a bodyguard (pretty straightforward) an anti-extortionist group leader (pretty straightforward), a portrait of a journalist who is anti-Mafia (pretty straightforward) a political rally (pretty straightforward) and others and land mis-used because of Mafia misappropriations etc etc all clearly captioned…mixed in with these very straightforward journalistic pictures are scenes of everyday life un-touched, un- mannered and also very straightforward…what exactly is misleading?? what is not journalistic? yes, there could have been a different approach , but i fail to see why this takes us down a reckless stereotypical dark road…maybe the stereotypes are in your head….have you been to Sicily? this is how it looks…and the Mafia is everywhere….and it is a wonderful place to be at the same time..great people, beautiful scenery, the best food and wine…i see none of that mis-represented…matter of fact, i see it all represented…eye of the beholder…
cheers, david
ALL
Can anyone give me info about what MM formats Burn accepts? I’m working on a MM presetation of my Blue Mirror project that I’ve created using Boinx FotoMagico software. I can export it to any number of platforms including Quicktime Movies and HD Movies. I’d also need to know what pixel size Burn prefers the images to be.
I tried emailing dear Anton with my questions but am sure he’s up to his eyeballs in tasks as he prepares to travel to Brooklyn this week.
Any help would be much appreciated. Thanks.
Patricia
David
Even with captions I am not convinced. Pictures are good, the story is good either, but for me the statement is from other story, from book cover or press article where I will find the rest of this big story. This are random pictures from Sicily for me.
But… first picture reminds me Anders Petersen’s works. great one.
PATRICIA..
i spoke with Anton this morning and he is just fine..and you well know i am the wrong person to ask but i do know that we run Quicktime all the time…and the pixel size should be the same as usual…anyway, i will double check….ok, just texted Anton….if he is up , he will jump in here and answer you
5 mins later…i just got a text from Anton saying he simply is not online,but will answer as soon as he gets home…
random is bad word
David, so Sicily is actually a dark, foreboding, dangerous place? And everyone is as unhappy as these people look? O.K. I withdraw my criticism.
MARCIN…
ok, i hear you…so, if we changed the topic from Mafia land to just random pictures of Sicily , you would be ok with it?? If Anders had wandered around Sicily and made these, you would be fine with them? if that is the case, then i can easily see any sophisticated magazine like New Yorker or the New York Times Magazine running exactly these pictures with a story by a famous writer on the Mafia in Sicily…words and pictures do not always match literally in most of the best books and magazines…do they??
will be back…
want to add some thoughts…..
xox
JIM…
ok, this is fun…now which pics would you label as dark and foreboding?? i couldn’t find any!! i went back through it again…ok, so some people not laughing , but most just involved as you said in ordinary life….b&w yes…color, as you say, would have been a different feeling…just imagine if Gene Smith would have done this…now, THAT would be dark and foreboding…i actually wish it was a little darker!!
You can take away all the words from that essay, it still has Sicily and Mafia all over them.. not in every pic there are hints to both, but in a lot of them..
David
I am many times not convinced to statement of many photo essays, even top photographers, even high level essays. Many times pictures “not work” with “added text”… of course for me.
If I see James Nachtwey’s pictures of bony child on dusty ground and I read text about hunger in Ethiopia, I belief in photo, story and photographer.
If I see running dirty child somewhere in Ethiopia and I read a text about hunger there, I just not quite belief. And it’s not mean this running child is not from hunger camp, maybe it is, but how could I know it.
The same is here, yes this are pictures of people with different connections with mafia. And yes, this pictures are good, and even story is good, but not as good as would like to see after reading statement.
eva, yes it does. Which is fine if Sicily is accurately portrayed as being under the absolute thumb of the mafia. I wonder if people living in Sicily see their lives in the same “light” as depicted in the essay.
David, simply stating my reaction to the photos. If others see them as happiness and light, that is certainly their prerogative.
DAVID,
Thanks for your time today. Was good to connect on SKYPE eventually and it is always energizing to listen to your ideas. This beachhouse of yours seems like the perfect spot to relax and get ready for the next trip…. I will try to work hard at this new project after the new year so that I have something meaningful to share with you when you are back from your magazine assignment… I look forward to see what you will shoot there by the way…. Your pictures from that part of the world are always so so special…. In the mean time, I will try to progress with the identification of a potential sponsor for a publication of “Lords”… Not an easy task but who knows…. will regroup in March….
Cheers,
Eric
Oops. It was Letizia battaglia, not Sylvia, I mentionned under Mimi’s essay. There is a nice little video on Ytube about her superb work:
MARCIN…
yes, of course, a starving child is easy to photograph quite frankly…easy to match with a text story on starvation….this Mimi essay is conceptual by nature…and some of the top essays which are either esoteric or conceptual by nature are NOT going to necessarily match the text literally…i am really surprised you are quite so literal in your interpretations of photography given that you are a painter and an artist where representations are everything…why couldn’t a dusty child running on a road be representative of a story about hunger?? why couldn’t the road, depending on juxtaposition, be a metaphor?? you mean you literally have to see an extended belly or empty cup or bony frame to represent hunger??
HERVE…
yes yes yes Letizia Battaglia….now, SHE really really did it!!! i remember when her book came out…amazing…Passion, Justice, Freedom
maybe because it is abused. You can shoot anything and said anything about that. Maybe it is crisis of faith, faith in people and theirs truthfulness.
Of course this part of my comment is not about Mimi. I have no reason to not belief in her truthfulness.
I talk generally.
Herve
Thanks for the link, I did not know Letizia Battaglia.
She is amazing.
Jim, for what I’ve seen of Sicily, for what I know about it (it’s daily news for us), I find the text is quite accurate indeed.
I think the beauty of the essay is that it is understated and not “in your face”. However because of that the captions are needed, and the ones that are supplied are adequate.
MARCIN…
everything is abused…one cannot take abuse as the mantra for eliminating justifiable artistry…
Good point, David, yet I understand some of Marcin’s own point. Many people see a picture as plain fact and demonstration of what is talked about in a the text.
I think Marcin talks about photographers taking any picture of a child which will look good enough to look like a victim of war, hunger, vagrancy. Not about photographers who use text and picture ina looser, more creative manner.
It also probably takes a bit of sophistication at looking at photography (which have a way to look SO REAL) to see the difference between the 2 for many viewers.
Thank you, David. As to not putting “Frostfrog” in the subject – my bad. The thought didn’t even occur to me. Frankly, I am amazed at the time and effort you put into communicating with such a broad array of people. I would not have asked or expected you to communicate with me beyond comments at all, but when you extended the invitation, I was, of course, very pleased and eager to see what you would have to say.
I sincerely appreciate your time.
The good point was about “esoteric, conceptual”, David. Gee you guys are talking up a storm this afternoon!
I got to know of Letizia from a docu on her, seen on french TV, and serendipitously, found it a day or 2 after in a used bookstore (on the way to HCB’s foundation in Montparnasse. Merci Henri!).
Herve,
unfortunately I cannot look at your youtube link (Letizia Battaglia) here in Germany. It is blocked due to copyright issues.
Guys Hi,
First I am a man, even if for the sake of commenting and/or consideration about my work, it does not make a difference.
Letizia is amazing, I know her very well, and what she did is in history. The most amazing photographic and journalist work on the second war of Mafia throughout part of the 70s, 80s and the early 90s.
There is no Mafia war now. Now there is a society that has lost its direction, that is fighting against a rubber wall. A society where Mafia has strongly contributed to the isolation of the individual and its dislocation. A society where the stronger rules and the rest follow. Dear Jim, unfortunately, behind the sunny and colourful Sicily, there is a thicker one made of desperation, unemployment, social fracture and violence.
THis is what I am working on.
Sorry about that, Lassal. It’s only a slideshow of pictures with a sicilian song in audio.
Her book is quite affordable (used) on AMAZON/USA.
http://www.amazon.com/Letizia-Battaglia-Passion-Justice-Freedom-Photgraphs/dp/0893818887/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1260133904&sr=1-1
HERVE…MARCIN…JIM
i DO understand all of your points honestly….just trying to keep this discussion alive because i think it a good one..and one of my few chances to actually be here during a discussion…so , please let me have my fun!!
photographers, editors,writers do fall into the two camps being represented here…some are quite literal and the others more subjective…obviously i fall into the more subjective camp even though i went through the most journalistic of all journalism schools, worked for very straight thinking newspapers, and Natgeo etc etc and do believe in the integrity aspects of good straight journalism….however, i simply do not believe that every text point must be shown in a photograph…or, vice versa….some things best told in words…like facts… other things, particularly certain emotional representations, may often be best shown in photographs….why oh why always literal match up?? misleading pictures yes are not suitable for journalistic purposes, but photographs which convey the feeling or the emotional structure of the concept in their most powerful way are often simply not literal….i do not need to see a road map to know how it feels, looks, to be on a particular part of a road..
anyway, i am sure this discussion will go on….however, i must go …i have two beautiful women to take to dinner…as much as i would like to stay here and finish this chat, i do have my priorities straight…..and that is not subjective, but a hard journalistic fact!!
good on all of you…
cheers, david
Mimi
I like your essay, but it make ambivalent feelings in me.
I hope you will keep shooting this story.
HERVE,
I also was not familiar with the work of Letizia Battaglia…. Interesting indeed!!!
Eric
finish this chat
———————
Please, don’t harm Simone, david! :-)))
PS: un chat is…. A cat in French.
HERVE,
thanks … I googled her and found some other links – Thankfully.
Will check the book too. Quite amazing pictures.
HERVE: “with a sicilian song in audio”
it’s not a sicilian song (Italian at its best, I would say, with the words of Fabrizio De Andrè) even if it speaks about a fight between families, a typical mafia theme, but on another island: Sardinia.
cheers
David, All
I think it is good topic.
I will tell you a story. But is have nothing common with with Mimi’s work. Please do not take it as a comment about Mimi’s essay.
Some time ago on polish edition newsweek’s website was published a story about “children in bermuda triangle”
“bermuda triangle” is small legendary district in wroclaw, city I live.
Even more I lived (now moved) in the center of “bermuda triangle”.
“bermuda triangle” had very bad fame. 20 years ago people afraid to walk there even during a day.
The essay was made by one of the best and most talented polish photographer.
This was very moody, dark essay, I was thought I was watching a Brazilians favelas, not street I walking every day.
The essay was about children. My neighbors.
I’ve seen them every day, because my window was opposite of they playground. I knew this kids, I talked with them.
Of course this kids are not “good sweet angels”, scoundrels is better word
the district is poor and there live many “simple people” but when I watched essay I had impression I watched end of the world, favelas, some dark place without hope and light.
and the main sentence was “there is inscription on a wall-if you go there, you will die”
What a rubbish!
I lived there and this is normal poor street, with normal poor people. Nothing special against the rest of the city, the rest of Poland.
Nobody kills there often than in others parts or wroclaw.
This kids smokes, swear (really hard) and fight all the time. There are bad kids.
So what?
I was so angry when I saw this essay.
All photographers have right to shoot pictures like they want, They can show cuba like place without light where lives prostitutes and only bad people, but it can’t be an article in newspaper.
Photographer as an artist can do anything, photographer as a journalist can’t.
Or it all is shallow.
It is easy to say “this is my impression of this place, not reality”, but for many too hard.
There is many places in Poland where live people with really problems, like in walbrzych. But if photographer want take there pictures have to make a risk, and dirt himself a little. But much easer is to take some poor kids and made a story like from war.
Right now I am very careful when I watch photo essays, even on VII or magnum websites.
I always said that my “hometown” stories are just my impressions, my feelings about this place, not reality. I do not understand why so many photographers shows world by some dark glasses and call it photojournalism.
I am not sure I am right, but it is something to consider, I think.
And what you think about?
If I remember correctly, this year at the Cannes film festival, a filmmakers life was in jeopardy due to his film he made on the mafia….. Be safe mimi…. too many thoughts to write….
and david…. only you have 2 beautiful women to take to dinner…… love it!!! hope there is some fun after dinner too :) :)
***
This is the way Sicily looks. I was there twice, both times before I got interested in photography, something I routinely kick myself in the shins about now as I remember the lost opportunity I had. I was in Catania both times, or rather, I was in Catania the first time and Aci Trezza the second. I’ll spare everyone the story about how I got sick the first time; go to Road Trips and look it up there if you want to hear of a chronicle of a strange voyage; and talk about the second time. The second time I was there, my brother, his Sicilian girl friend and her best friend, and I went to Palermo (yes, it was crowded in that Lancia) and some other places as well. Before we left Palermo that night, we went to an outdoor market on a side street that angles down a hill. At the bottom of the hill there was a bread store. There were a bunch of guys in there watching a football game on television. Nobody went in to buy bread and every ten or fifteen minutes or so one of the guys inside would put down his coffee and then walk up and down the street. He’d nod to all the vendors and they’s nod back to him and then he’d go back to the bread store and start watching the game again. The third or fourth time this happened, I asked what that was all about, because I noticed a distinct chill in the air whenever the guys came out of that bread store. The man at the stand we were at (the man sold deep fried chickpeas, if I remember this right-the word for what he was selling eludes me now) said something to my brother’s girl friend in Sicilian, which my brother doesnt speak, so I had to find out later what was going on. As we went onto the autostrada, my brother’s girl friend said that the vendor said, he’s (meaning me) not from around here, is he? And then she explained what was going on. The guys in the bread store were mafiosi. Their job was to collect the pizzo, the mob’s cut of the action, and they walked up and down the street just to remind everyone that they had better pony up at the end of the day or else. Mimi, this essay looks a lot like the way I remember Sicily; the ordinary life, the people, and yes, the not so hidden underside. Nice work.
Ok, I will comment here Mimi’s essay…
I don’t feel a disconnection between the text and the pictures… to be honest the essay moves quite faithfully along the lines defined in the first paragraph of the introduction: “The story I want to tell is about my land, Sicily, the effects of Mafia in our territory, the people that fight against it on the front line and the context in which Mafia has grown and rooted its identity”.
I don’t think either that showing a public prosecutor surrounded by armed bodyguards is too explicit/literal: that’s how it is – a gun ready at hand – since too many prosecutors (and bodyguars) were just blown to pieces in the past. I like how this particular picture connects with the following one, with the white limo, since, at first glance, it seemed to me that the man was shooting (bullets instead of megapixels) at the car…
Also photos which are apparently out of context add to the whole story: I’m thinking of the girl wearing the mask and it resonates with the definition of “pre-modern” associated with the sicilian society in the text… it also resonates with the novel/movie “Il gattopardo” imo.
It worth noting how the FT Weekend Magazine published some of these photos grouped in explicit (from a straight journalistic point of view) contexts: looking at the tearsheets in Mimi’s website (too small to decipher the accompanying text), first 2 pages were about mafia affecting the territory (illegal buildings, wastes in the streets…), then a collection of (folkloristic) sicilian faces, finally people hidden behind windows (suggesting fear? even if common people are mixed with anti-mafia activists).
I hope that Mimi will continue in his exploration, with his personal approach: this is a story to be told many many times, since mafia empire is based on people silence.
Photographer as an artist can do anything, photographer as a journalist can’t. Who made that up? It’s journal a perception
Jim – here’s what I think: you just enjoy being obstinate, making negative statements. Since I discovered Burn, I can recall you making a truly positive statement about one essay only – and it was an essay that, in the acknowledgements, thanked you for your help. To your credit, I will say it was a truly excellent essay.
Perhaps you just like to stir up a ruckus, to get under people’s skin. Perhaps you like the attention it brings you. Perhaps it makes you feel that you are superior to the photographer and all the poor dolts who enjoy the work and see reason to encourage it. I don’t know. But you certainly do enjoy it – being obstinate. And I must admit, your predictable obstinacy does bring some entertainment value to the board.
I am certain that there a number of people here who, immediately after clicking comments, go straight to your name, just to see what kind of obstinate statement you are going to make this time.
Have fun!
Imants: it’s not made up. It is called ethics. They are taught at journalism schools. No problem if one doesn’t want to stick x ethics, rules or whatever when telling stories, communicating with others, but one who does stick x it tries to set a standard against which the information he proposes is to be judged.
MARCIN,
if Mimi feels that way he photographed, there is a reason. As well the other phtographer in Wroclaw did.
The difference between both may be, that you live in that area in Wroclaw. I understand Mimi is actually Sicilian. BTW, I do not feel the pictures as very sinister, just because they are in BW. They are sinister, because one can feel, there is something in the air. Beyond what we can see…
FROSTFROG, JIM
I actually like Jim’s critical comments. He is rarely praising others work, however he makes good points. He makes us think. Friction is what makes us better. Jim has a good eye and tells us what he sees. I learned that only friends give feedback. And I am quite sure, Jim gives feedback in its purest and most honest way.
Not to hurt, but to make aware. What more could we expect?
It’s your perception of the so called facts that you gather along with the choices you make in photographing. I could easily see your work about Cambodia as being clouded version as you obviously have become emotionally attached to what you are doing. This doesn’t make it wrong but it isn’t “the reality”others see it in a completely different way.
Who is to say that the subject photographed isn’t hamming it up, more interest is their side of the story. Who is to say that the person is reacting to someone who is not included in the frame and the photographer had no idea. Who is to say that the photographer isn’t seduced and believes what he/she sees despite questioning the whole situation
Frostfrog, I’ve commented positively on a number of essays here. I say what I think, without surrounding my words with faint praise. I’m not playing games, or “acting” grumpy. I AM grumpy. Besides, few of the photographers actually showcased here pay any attention to my opinions unless they are positive. The tendency is to ignore those who do not praise you. And there is plenty of uncritical praise available on Burn.
What become really interesting is that x is beyond scrutiny and x’s ethics cannot be questioned.
Imants,
Reading stories by someone being emotionally attached as a journalist may be different from someone who is not a journalist. Because the reading codes are supposed to be different. A journalist can be blamed for biased reporting. A non-journalist can’t be blamed.
And it’s not about self-castigation. It’s about setting, or trying to maintain, certain standards.
An interesting article about the work of Letizia Battaglia, which ends with
Maybe the Mafia is no longer photographable,” she said. “Things have changed.”
http://www.freedomforum.org/publications/msj/courage.summer2000/t01.html
No one is beyond scrutiny and everyone’s ethics can be questioned. Maybe ethics make the questions easier.
No a journalist shouldn’t be blamed for biased reporting, their bias just placed within the right context. Ethics are transitory
“I have been a witness, and these pictures are my testimony.” James Nachtwey
In the law, testimony is rationally based on the perceptions of the witness and are helpful to a clear understanding of the witness’ testimony. The problem is that word “perceptions.” When Nachtwey points his camera at a group of women crying loudly over the arrival of the coffin of one of the women’s dead sons, we are seeing his testimony, his perception of the event as it occurred. But he will never know whether the level of mourning is real, if it is cultural or if it is ramped up because he is pointing a camera at them. Is the resulting photo unethical because it may not be the whole truth?
Whether or not it is the absolute truth is beyond his knowing, but the fact remains that the photo is a testimony to what he saw.
Thomas/Jim – I will agree that Jim does make some good comments – but he also makes a great many that strike me as gratuitously negative – taking a negative viewpoint just to be negative. And just as excessive, gratuitous, praise loses its meaning, so too does excessive, gratuitous, criticism. It becomes hard to separate the valid criticisms from those made just to be critical.
That’s how it strikes me. I could be wrong – but maybe not.
Regarding an image being the truth. Every image is only the perception of the event as seen through the eyes of the photographer. Personality, caring, upbringing, political views etc all play a part.
Freeman Patterson wrote something “A photograph tells more about the photographer than they could ever imagine”; or words to that effect (I can’t find the exact quote now).
On Halloween night here I was photographing 3 kids sitting out on the street at about 2am. As I photographing them one began to get up to go; and as he did so I took a photo. Well that image makes him look like he’s drunk (which he was!); but so drunk that he was slumped over to the side towards the pavement, supporting himself with his hand.
There is no way I would ever use that image because it totally misrepresents him (he looks passed out etc) and the situation. So I suppose it all comes down to every photographer’s ethics; or lack of… And again an age-old discussion (but an important one)
Cheers
Should have read; “Freeman Patterson wrote “A photograph tells more about the photographer than they could ever imagine”; or words to that effect (I can’t find the exact quote now)”
David Alan Harvey
Saw your comment..i am, what would David Bowen say, gobsmacked..cuz, cuz..well, just cuz :) Which blog did you see that interested you? There are two and both are linked to each other. Landshapes and Perfect Strangers. I never thought to send you this work because i sent some to Burn at one time and didn´t hear anything so thought i´d better put my nose to the grindstone and maybe someday prove myself worthy of your attention. My nose has definitely been to the grindstone. So, wow, your post made me high.
Please let me know which work and how i should proceed.
And, yes, thanks..
HAIK-U
e-mail? eeks..have not checked g-mail in awhile..see? have been in a photography induced phog. will go look now.
CARL BOWER (aka chica barbie)
Thanks so much for your comment. Please write me at dyathink1124@gmail.com
Best to all of you Burning babies
Kathleen
Just want to point out that Mimi’s essay is not yet listed in “Photographic Essays”.
As you were.
it’s not a sicilian song
——————————-
Thanks, Abele, for the correction. I just assumed, as my italian is beyond rusty. All I remember, circa 1980s, is asking every time I came out the train: dove il centro della citta? (I bet that is wrong too!)
:-)
KATHLEEN..
there were pictures in both Landscapes and Perfect Strangers which i found intriguing…i do not know right this minute whether we should/could make an essay out of either or whether we should simply do a few singles…anyway, we can discuss by private email….
MICHAEL…
i cannot figure that one out….i have it tagged properly, but for some reason it does not show up…..hmmmm…..
JIM…
i agree with everything you just wrote..however, why is that a contradiction to the Mimi essay?
Considering JIMS point, isn’t everything relative to an individual in any, and every circumstance, and obviously including cultural. So, as for Jim’s example, because a society express’s their mourning more vocally than another, can’t undermine their grief, and cirtainly the circumstance’s of that death. So you have Woman wailing at one funeral, and upright and tight lipped at another. Surely we’re all intuitive enough to understand cultural differences, or rather, learn and pick up on these differences over time; as we’re aware that we have one family member who express themselves differently. So therefore, we are all aware to different degrees that people, and societies can be very different as far as expression and interaction’s go.
Regarding Mimi’s photo essay. An individual may be sceptical about how many of these photographs truly represent the influence the Sicilian Mafia have over that society, but how can any , particularly an outsider, say I don’t think this or that image has any relevance. I think we should all hold back and take in how others respond.
“Surely we’re all intuitive enough to understand cultural differences, or rather, learn and pick up on these differences over time; as we’re aware that we have one family member who express themselves differently. So therefore, we are all aware to different degrees that people, and societies can be very different as far as expression and interaction’s go.”
The majority of an audience may be aware but not conversant in the differences. Most of the world’s population have access to as much information as you do …… many struggle just to stay alive day to day
Most of the world’s population… doesn’t ….. have access
First of all I should apologize Mimi for my comment, because it was not my intention to diminish his essay or point something wrong with it. I was try to indicate why I felt suspicious to his essay. And maybe why I am suspicious to many essays I’ve seen. Essays who describe some socials problems and they highly supported by statement.
My suspicious was just my first feelings.
Maybe unjustified.
Now I see for sure unjustified.
Imants
We watched essays about humans problems every day, and I watch photography from around the world. World I don’t know. That’s why I am watching pictures. To get known. And i want see a truth about this world not photographer’s imagination. Truth filtered by photographer’s sensitivity only, not imagination. I read one time words of a photographer who sees like others photojournalists paid some children who imitate participation in the riots during intifada in Palestine. And yes, their pictures looks like the “real one”, so why not? This pictures shows a truth about happening somehow.
If you don’t care about, it is your right. Everything is just fine.
My right is to feel suspicious every time when photos not convince me to the statement.
for me the rules are simple “Photographer as an artist can do anything, photographer as a journalist can’t.”
But yes, there are my rules.
Did you see last great photo essays on the TNYT lens blog? Black and wery white! Wow, the best stuff I’ve seen last time.
And Today’s pictures on Slate?
This guys try to KILL ME!!!
Summer pictures when the gray world outside my window!
I need to get out!
:)))
Ok, rush to work.
ehhhh….
David Alan Harvey
I agree about the single photos thought. i never considered doing an essay for Burn. I am not a Pj. I have your e-mail and will write. Thanks again!
Best
Kathleen
Imants..
Excuse me for not understanding your point Imants.
What have people not having the same access as I have to the media got to do with anything I just wrote.?
My point is about not jumping to conclusions. And that goes as much for rigged pictures and stories. Just because we’re told something dose not mean its true.
I guess the heart of the point I was meaning to make was that may be its helpful for us as individuals with different perspectives, to hold back and take things in that we are not familiar with. Absorbing different perspectives..
MIMI,
VIVA Italy…we love you una fatsa una ratsa…
I am singing mi votu e mi rivotu…
MIMI…I like the kinda “silent” approach…cause I and my Italian friends…
we are loud, we talk and move a lot, we fart a lot, we cry a lot..kinda too much drama …a lot …
and we LOVE a lot…VIVA …
Wine on the ITALIANS today !!!
MARKW,
You are alive and kicking …and we are next to you…
my civilian suggestion…: “Moments of ecstacy or eye of the beholder”…
where in Europe …if I may …???
keep rolling…I know it’s hard …BUT today there is no BUT …:)))
BURNIANS, focus…and leave the “excessive ,gratuitous praises …to me ”
KATIE…oime…you are alive …Thank you Universe…U scared the sun out of me !!!
PANOS…contact,are you alive…give us a sign…
WHAT NOT TO LOVE…I LOVE u ALL…don’t blame me :))) DEBATE is on !!!
Herve,
“dove il centro della citta?”
not so bad, not so bad at all ;)
Peter you stated ……. Surely we’re all intuitive enough to understand cultural differences…. and ……So therefore, we are all aware …..
I cannot see how you can write on behalf of all people, most of whom you have never met, few in numbers even bother to go to photography places such as burn etc. Many have limited access to information about others. Maybe you live within a very small world
“Photographer as an artist can do anything, photographer as a journalist can’t.”…….pretty naive and narrow view that leaves you chained to whatever bias you may have. Your choice.
http://www.slide.com/r/yC-52ywt6j-Vgq1beyjGKU7vPCd5iTsZ?previous_view=TICKER&previous_action=TICKER_ITEM_CLICK&ciid=3458764514218021376
or if that link didnt work…
http://www.slide.com/r/yIVPpUBuzj-3E4wFSh6ri2ceDmwyJDGY?previous_view=lt_embedded_url
second slideshow…
http://www.slide.com/r/ABxVLQ8FmT9d-gN9BGR6-BuX6FxmgPyi?previous_view=TICKER&previous_action=TICKER_ITEM_CLICK&ciid=3314649326142627029
Hi Imants..
Excuse me, I am not the best one at articulating myself.
The point about, “us all being intuitive enough to understand cultural differences”, I did follow that with, and qualified with…”or rather, learn and pick up on these differences over time”. I realize I didn’t make it clear but I was largely directing this observation towards ourselves, here at BURN, that as we are aware of the differences within our immediate families, we should, are in a position to also consider differences wider afield.
Thanks for your interaction Imants.
PANOS,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QaCqhnELvFs&feature=related
Liam Clancy & Odetta “Blowin in the Wind”
Thanks for shooting …our backyard …
and Bye Bye Bye LIAM CLANCY…
P.S be safe …BURNIANS…beer,beer,beer on me
dearest panos and civi,
spin something happy for sad and lonely me.
Civi…
for the history..the slideshows above are a collective work from fellow newspaper greek pj’s…
u know i dont use zoom lenses plus those aint my signature colors…but i will post my point of u later on tonight..
big hug & yes, beer is the way to go..
:)
Gracie..:)
its hard to be happy in this sad,crazy city of the angry mustaches…
nothing positive here…
maybe civi can keep us happy today..:(
DAH… all
It’s absolutely pointless to criticize any unsuccessfull attempt in photography these days if it’s backed by authorities:))… you are just simply going to be accused of the lack of perception and education… everything is subjective… and this defence tactic has been used and misused very widely nowadays. While every lover of photography, inside themselves, still knows and recognizes really strong and good photography. When looking at pictures, as a photographer myself, I can imediately see when photographer used the easiest approach, didn’t get close to the story, lack of experience or maybe even talent etc… I know how it’s difficult to get a really good single frame, not even talking about photo-essay. Should I keep my mouth shut? Maybe… and better concentrate on my own photography… Why there is such a priority for photo-essay in general? Strong single frames can have much greater value and can speak much more than those half-baiked essays… No? Video, movies are much better mediums to tell stories than photography… Photography is a language of symbols it’s too much two-dimensional and is much more stronger as a unique form of art than documentary. I know, photo-essay isn’t necessary a documentary, but there are so many emotional moments, stories, destinies that have to be or could be told just with one frame – the history of photography is full of such examples… if one among million is talented enough to take a lot of great pictures on one subject during relatively short time… then it makes sense for photo-stories, books… otherwise… I am not talented enough, and I am happy when/if I get a single frame per half a year that gets an international attention. I am interested in the aesthetic of the decisive moment in time, not much in a long story of it… And I believe, there are so many great stories which simply cannot be photograped in any persuading way at all.
and I am happy when/if I get a single frame per half a year that gets an international attention. ……….. and a link to an example please
Great participant interviews from the recent Joop Swart Masterclass: http://www.worldpressphoto.org/index.php?option=com_media_gallery&area=showGallery&task=view&id=21&Itemid=239&bandwidth=high
morning, morning..
“Video, movies are much better mediums to tell stories than photography… ”
gobsmacked, as kathleen might say… you´ve stumbled on the wrong site..
“And I believe, there are so many great stories which simply cannot be photograped in any persuading way at all.”
like grapes?
going gone.
d
Imants,
Ok, if you insist. This is just one and very recent: http://www.photoradar.com/photographer-of-the-year-2009-man-made-4-of-4 “Urban Openings – Ringaudas Zusinas Lithuania”
Tom Kennedy on multimedia from Joop Swart: http://www.worldpressphoto.org/index.php?option=com_media_gallery&area=showGallery&task=view&id=22&Itemid=239&bandwidth=high
MYGRACIE, PANOS…BURNIANS…
beer, beer,beer…
Please, Drink with moderation…be HAPPY !!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZmDWltBziM&feature=related
DAVIDB…I LOVE grapes !!!
“JIM…
i agree with everything you just wrote..however, why is that a contradiction to the Mimi essay?”
David, I was responding to the comments talking about PJ ethics, not the current essay. Confusing when multiple topics are in a single thread sometimes.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/cb/Topic_%28chocolate_bar%29.jpg
civi
grapes, crepes and being in various states..
what not to?
real gone now.
d
Thanks
labāk …………… paldies
Imants,
O kodėl prašei nuorodos į fotografiją? :))
I am curious to see what people do with their photography ……… it’s sorta great when images become part of the rambling text on a blog/forum.
My parents and their friends used to tell stories and show photos to bring the stories to life. Even their paranoia of the Soviets came to life…….. partly truth partly fiction it didn’t matter we understood …….so I sorta do it in my own way on the wonderful world of wWw http://www.iamparanoid.net/
IMANTS, ANTONY and TO OUR LITHUNIAN friends,
Kas nėra meilė?
WHAT ‘s not to LOVE?
a civilian-mass audience,
:)) Ar tik nebūsi mielas kraštietis?:) Bet kokiu atveju linkėjimai!
BURNIANS,
there are no secrets codes…I am just trying to get some free Lithuanian lessons from ANTHONY R.Z
ačiū …
Norėčiau sužinoti, lietuvių kalba.
Sveikinimų per
Sorry for the interruption :)))
Laba diena Civi,
kaip sekasi?
buckis!
See I always knew Lithuanians spoke Latvian as if they had hot potatoes in their mouths……….ar labu nakti no manis
KATHLEEN…
you do not need to be a PJ photographer…i like to represent a broad spectrum of what photographers are doing today….some of it is PJ, some of it is not…and as you can read from current discussions, the identity of the various styles and approaches is not agreed upon by all…anyway, let’s take a look, think about it, and see what we can do to best represent what you are doing….
ANTHONY RZ…
i totally agree with everything you said in your longer, well thought out comment…
i am curious also why most submit essays here…i do put great value in the single frame…i put most value in the single frame…on my wall are single frames, not essays….i think in thinking about essays, either straight photo-j or more conceptual, one does work in such a way as to most likely make strong single photographs…the process of thinking dimensionally allows one to perhaps arrive at the single point that best represents either the subject or the thinking of the photographer..
please know that i respect both..the subject, AND the subjectivity or intuition of the photographer…just because the photographer has intent does not mean it always works out, but when the intelligence and the artistry of the photographer really shows along with a reflection of the subject, then i think something masterful arises…
this does not happen everyday…it is rare when these elements all come together..
i think the publication of work here is generally considered to be work in progress…when work is totally finalized or realized it will not be in an essay on the net, but in a fine book or exhibition…the net is merely a gathering point for discussion in most cases…a place to discuss the very topics we are discussing…
the myriad of points of view are simply that , points of view…nothing is cast in stone by any mythical “authorities”…the opinion of one is simply going to be countered by another…and nothing here is intended to be a “defense” , but merely the counter point of discourse which arises spontaneously from this audience…
otherwise, we have a one way conversation…
i do think it a good idea to always read carefully the words and intent of the photographer….in this case, the photographer clearly stated that he was being conceptual and representational of a presence and not literally photographing the Mafia…even Letizia Battaglia, who quite literally photographed the Mafia men and their deeds and recriminations, showed mostly photographs of the everyday life surrounding the drama…i would hate to think that every documentary photographer felt the need to match literally words with pictures…what a limitation….i think that knowledge of subject and integrity of purpose can lead to some of the strongest documentary work without having to be strangled by the visually literal..
my feeling about Mimi and his work is that he has a long way to go…he thinks so as well….for him to really be ready for a book on Sicily for example , he will have to go further into the mindset of his subjects and do the really difficult job of mirroring feeling and presence rather than making a photograph of a Mafia boss with a gun in his hand…unlikely…
remember, it is really easy to do photo essays of kids picking through a garbage dump in Mexico City and call it a serious essay eschewing the effects of poverty…or of a dead body in a pool of blood in Iraq and say you have made an anti-war statement…photographers, or writers, or film makers, who take on the serious task of getting inside the mentality of fear or coercion or love or hate are the brave ones…the conceptual thinkers…..they should be held high for their efforts and IF they succeed they have done something few can do….
cheers, david
I learn alot just from hearing you all talk.
:)
Imants,
Oh dear, I wish could speak Latvian even like with hot potato in my mouth:) I am not even able to understand Latvian even though some words sound similar. These two languages belong to the same language group, but they are different enough so Lithuanians and Latvians communicate in English or Russian.
I finally got around to viewing Mimi’s essay and was surprised that anyone would question its honesty, though I guess I can see the wisdom in questioning anything media-related these days.
I like his method of mixing the news-ish photos with the more quotidian and think the captions were very effective. There’s no way one can look at a housing project and know who financed it or a man in the street and know that he’s working for or against a criminal organization. And I may be wrong, but I felt that at least some of the not-obviously-political photos might have had a deeper purpose, the women in the mask for example. I think he did a good job of using good photo technique to show the surface while simultaneously communicating, both through images and words, that there is a lot more going on beneath.
Regarding the nuts and bolts of online magazine publishing, David, I’m curious how you’ve arrived at the timing of the slideshows, especially when captions are involved. In Mimi’s essay, it’s impossible to properly appreciate the photo and read the caption in one viewing.
I put a lot of thought into that issue during my “Blue York” exercise last week and ended up thinking the optimal way to handle it was to let the viewer see the photo for about 10 seconds and then have the text pop up for long enough to read the longest caption. The counter argument to that is that many viewers don’t have enough patience to look at a single photo that long. I’m not necessarily arguing that you should do it one way or another, just curious about your thought processes in the matter.
CIVILIAN
oh yes, alive, alive oh! But almost not..could have been bad..but not a story for internet viewing alas. Just another day in the life in a third world country where the circle of violence grows ever smaller with each passing day. When i vanish it´s to do work..i get distracted and ´out of the loop´..i am so sorry to worry you. And you DO have my e-mail you know…so hmm…i hope you are doing fabulously, i know you are. It´s your Karma.
DAVID ALAN HARVEY
I have been thinking about it since yesterday..and yes, i know you are very receptive and sensitive to art photography. I really liked your post about single photos above. Sometimes when i have something so squarely in my mind that i can´t shake it loose..i come in here and lo and behold that´s the subject you touched on in a long post here that very day. You have no idea how your words can knit up the loose ends for me, be they intellectual, emotional, psychological or practical. You place a compass in my hand and point out ¨N¨, calm the nerves, center the mind, remind me that great photos reside in some shadowy limbo world of the heart and mind, just waiting for me to find them there. My limitations are me, me and me. The photos are there, more than i will ever be able to produce. You remind me of the infinite possibilities that must be gathered, harnessed and directed into a single beam of light when the world goes momentarily, knowingly silent, breaths are held, and a new photo is made.
Best to you:
Kathleen
kat
mmmmm…
nice to read your words again…
spot on….
lovely…
xox
MICHAEL WEBSTER…
well, you can watch the slide show or click one by one and read the caption carefully..for sure, it is imperfect….my first choice would be of course to have a voice over with many shows…the larger team we are now building for Burn may make this more possible in the future, yet the burden will still be on the photographer to produce a slide show that most replicates his or her intent…
please join us in my loft this coming sunday for a Burn meeting to discuss ways to improve etc etc..Anton is flying in from Belgium and we will have a good cross section of our readership on hand…many of us will also be hanging out at my place after Mike Young’s opening at Powerhouse on thursday evening…find us…your ideas and thoughts will be most welcomed…
ANTHONY RZ…
you are certainly invited as well….if you cannot make it in person, we will patch you in on skype….davidalanharvey…we did this last year and it worked out quite well…maybe you missed my comment above, or perhaps you chose to ignore it…fine…but, please know your thoughts, your feelings, your ideas are always welcomed…having different points of view is in my mind a healthy thing and not to be viewed as anything but process…process of thinking….the day that any of us shut down the possibilities available is the day we should all just bury our heads in the sand…nobody excluded….by the way, do you have a website where we can see what you do?? that would be helpful….
KATHLEEN…
well put…all good things start with ideas and emotions…turning those thoughts and feelings into photographs is why we are here….
cheers, david
OK, this is another beautiful day in BURNLAND…
I am gonna scream from happiness
YEAHHHHHHHHHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA !!!
especially when I see BURN ladies on my screen …I wanna scream and dance …
and KATIE …this is what I call …ARTICULATION !!!
FRANCESCO…Aš baudą. gyvenimas yra gražus … kartais.
An Italian with Lithuanian accent …hmmmmmmmmmm
REIMAR , THODORIS,ourPATRICIA, AUDREY, HAIK …SPACECOWBOY … beer,beer,beer …
and POMARA…
where is my BURN bag…:)))
I will definitely …be back
David Alan Harvey,
Basically, I agree with everything you said in your response David… good food for thoughts… The difference is that you see the bigger picture of everything and you are in a mentor’s position as well. While I am, in this case, just a picky spectator… well, and photographer as well… As a photographer I have no very strong desire to be seen, or even worse to become known or famouse… photography and painting is just to fill in my existence on this earth – the journey itself is the goal, not the destination. Although, I believe, sooner or later as a photographer I will have to tell my modest word.
Thank you David
CIVI
this is how it happened ;)
http://www.cnntraveller.com/2008/09/01/a-handful-of-sand/
are you in lithuania now?!
let me know if you are, especially in vilnius..and I’ll give you a couple of good tips!
Sure David, I’d love to contribute any way I can. We can chat on Thursday.
David Alan Harvey,
Thank you for your interest in my photography. I used to have my own website but it was too expensive for me and I closed it. Then I opened a flickr account and placed some of my images there, but later I didn’t find any reason to keep my pictures in the ocean of other pictures on the internet, and I deleted everythink and closed account. In general, I am against internet photography… I guess, I will have to change my mind and in the near future reopen a flickr account:)) or maybe something else.
Unfortunately, unfortunately it seems I will never be able to be a guest in your loft in New York… sometime ago I have already written to you the reasons for this unfortunate destiny of mine.
Sohrab, who has an essay here on burn – Oasis – was part of the Joop S. Masterclass and created some powerful work you can see in the same group odf links Davin posted, or here: http://www.worldpressphoto.org/index.php?option=com_media_gallery&area=showGallery&task=view&id=21&Itemid=239&bandwidth=high
ANTHONY RZ…
i see myself as a photographer with all of the questions, problems, confusions, frustrations of anyone else…i try very hard not to think of myself as anything other than being in the same boat as all of the readership here…i can only be helpful if in fact i can really empathize with the photographers i meet…i never ever wanted to become known either…the nature of publication i suppose did put me out there in some way, but if i did not show my work to students etc. or have a book or whatever, you would never see me showing my work…
ironically i am averse to showing my own work…i prefer to help someone else..at some points, i am sort of forced to publish etc., but my work stays in the “closet” often for long periods of time….at an early age i did start trying to help photographers, my peers, think about their work from the time i was a student..so mentoring , helping photographers edit, etc. is something that has been with me all along…my only goal in this regard is to try to unlock the very specific personality of the photographer whose work i see…if a photographer is quite clearly PJ oriented, i do not try to turn that photographer into an art photographer, nor the reverse…i only ask of the photographers i mentor to dig deep into themselves and let THAT come out…
one of the reasons i am so excited about CIRCUS is because kids have fewer barriers up front..they are already loose naturally…most “adults” have to unlearn a whole bunch of stuff in order to grow and “learn” who they really can be…
in any case Anthony, i am very pleased to have you as part of our forum….i absolutely 100% do not care at all if you disagree with anything i do…promise, promise…i will make , as i said, perhaps a spirited counterpoint, but it is nothing personal at all and i have not a bone of “authority” in my body….my background for discourse came from a school where we openly criticized each other mercilessly….at Magnum we tell each other what we think as well…straight up……then go out for a beer and dinner and camaraderie ….the two are not mutually exclusive…i hope you will feel that way here on Burn…
cheers, david
All….
i just came back from the riots in Athens…
plz dont go away..
im creating the link right now…
i wanna share this with you..
and dont worry.. im not gonna show you the “usual”
police beating the kids stuff…
no. no.. youve seen that million times…
i hope i shot a little different than the newspaper guys
friends of mine today..
give me couple minutes plz..
my eyes are still red from the tear gas..
barely breathing right now…
peace ( from athens? yeah right…:( )
Panos,
take your breath! Missed the whole riot stuff on the news because I was drowned in office work for the last week plus taking pictures… Looking forward to see your view on the riots!
But right now I am out for a beer or two or maybe an evening tea… I haven’t decided yet…
Good discussions going on here!
Reimar
we are seeing his testimony, his perception of the event as it occurred. But he will never know whether the level of mourning is real
———————————–
Jim, IMO, what Nacthwey saw and want to testify for is war and suffering, not women crying. With a mere photograph much is left for the viewer, maybe himself, to interpretate it, or question it, as you point rightly.
I am not sure Jim worries that one photo, or part of, is put in question, but he wants us to know that him being there and taking picture, is a direct result of witnessing war, illness, and suffering.
If all we do is reacting to the picture as a picture and not the horror underlining it, so that somehow, something is done, or at least we know, we really know, I think we fail him (as far as I know the guy), and failing ourselves too. Which we do, of course, but that is nopt, again IMO, James concern as a photographer, as a witness.
ALL..BREAKING NEWS…ATHENS ON FIRE..
ATHENS IS BURNING..
This is my TESTIMONY….
900 PEOPLE DETAINED ALREADY….some of those will turn into arrests..
ATHENS IN A STATE OF EMERGENCY…
world please watch…
Basic human rights are severely violated in athens greece…
All..please dont leave the youth of athens alone…
my point of view( testimony a la Herve ) click below..:SET SLIDESHOW IN 6 second time
http://picasaweb.google.com/innerspacecowpanos/TIF18?authkey=Gv1sRgCP2vg7qtn8b78QE#slideshow/5412559048627178674
or…click here to view my proofsheet and spend as time as u like on every photo…
http://picasaweb.google.com/innerspacecowpanos/TIF18?authkey=Gv1sRgCP2vg7qtn8b78QE#
No gods or heros for me, Panos… but I admire the shit out of you!
Peace, my friend!
PANOS..
nice work….pls.give me RIGHT NOW..#43 to use as a single…send to Submissions…short explanation of why this happening..one graph….please #43 from the contact sheet…foggy tear gas shot spraying over everyone…like NOW…like HURRY…like IMMEDIATELY…..what’s the holdup?? joking dude, joking
PANOS…the tell it as it is…
what are you thinking …??? It seems that you totally dismissed my warnings…
BUT you are a BURNIAN and as a BURNIAN …oime you are Unstoppable !!!
May the Greek spirits be with you …if you end up in jail …call me …
FRANCESCO,
amazing work…you are young but you seem like a mature emerging photographer !!!
Well,maybe I can meet you at the Astorija Hotel…
I wish I can tell you that it’s safe to come south …BUT …according to the breaking news
please postpone…(I live in Greece)
hi there…sorry to interrupt the Dialogue, but I just logged in here for the first time and I thought it would polite to introduce myself.
I’ve been hearing lots and lots of (good) things about Burn, but I had no clue this was a real community!! (thought it was just a site displaying photos, how ignorant!!).
So, is this an open forum for anybody with something to say? Or should I just shut up…..
ok…
kimbell
open gate.. the horses bolted a long time ago.. no closing it now.. tuck in and welcome
d
W.KIMBELL…
welcome…well, the inmates here are in charge of the asylum, but good things do manifest themselves…open forum….under the essays we usually just have one comment per person to keep the discussion on track…anything goes over here in Dialogue where we can continue discussing the essay up or whatever crosses someone’s mind as being important…start a thread, continue a thread…thread the needle…all ok right here…
cheers, david
@david, thanks a lot dude!
I just went to the main page, scrolled down, clicked “older entries” and scrolled down, clicked “older entries” and scrolled down…… Man this is going to be fun!! I have essays to keep me busy for months. yay!
WK
people have been saying nice things about us? the nerve of those bastards.
PANOS
With you, man, with you. Stay as safe as possible but keep shooting. You’re bringing new vision and immediacy to what can quicklyy become the same old same old protest pics. I’ve tried to document lots of demos myself, never as effectively as you’ve done in just one afternoon. Alas, this is when a scooter-riding photographer is not in the best posiion to get the shots. Hell, man, to do wat you’re doing, you need to be able to run like a deer and dodge like a running back. Stay safe…
Patricia
AKAKY…
i suspect W.Kimbell will get over his/her(?) enthusiasm and get grumpy like all the rest of us…you can help…NOW is the time for one of your masterpieces….
@ David (Alan Harvey), thanks and nice to meet you ;)
Now, a tech. question for any good samaritan willing to help. I’m trying to put together a site, but most of my work is 6×6 and I’m note precisely a digital person (although I’m catching up fast). Can anyone recommend a good (I mean GOOD) scanner to for my negs and slides?.
Hint: I’ve spent quite a few years working on my portfolio, so I’m willing to “Burn” some bucks if necessary.
Thaaannks!
PANOS…
do as Patricia says…on the other hand, get the pictures!! stop worrying about yourself so much and think about US!! where is #43?? i gotta go have lunch..you are holding me up….
@ Akaky
Burn was actually recommended by my flatmate, whose mood has been getting worse and worse over the last few months…..now I understand!! haha
@ David (AH)
….”his” enthusiasm! ;)
David…
i just submitted….
a YEAR AGO FROM TODAY…POLICE SHOT AND KILLED A 15 YEAR OLD KID…
point blank..
His name was ALEXIS…15 year old…
Last year was on fire for a whole month…
A year later…in his memory..
All schools are closed..Thousands of students protesting in the middle of Athens..
The “Kratos”…the state …the cowards ( GOVERNMENT )named all those students as “ANARCHISTS”…
900 ARE DETAINED SINCE YESTERDAY…
i was briefly detained two nights ago… but my american citizenship helped me out..
The police ( ordered by the greek government )…are out of control…
THEY VIOLATE EVERY HUMAN RIGHT POSSIBLE…
let me explain:..They stop u in the middle of the street…ask for id or passport..
if u dont have one u get arrested..
if u are an immigrant..u r jailed for 3 months at least…
Greek police with no authorization from the crooked, corrupted immigration department..
interrogates, harasses and jails “illegal” immigrants…
If u r a student , poor…or look “weird” u r immediately detained and charged as a terrorist..
All that because Greece is close to bankruptcy…
Despair,high rates of unemployment… corrupted politicians…
dirty church leaders…etc..
If u dare to protest….then u go to jail…
u r a terrorist…
Greece is the only European country that still send to jail drug users…
The only country in the western world that fails to understand that drug use is a disease and not a crime..
What a shame for the country that gave birth to Socrates and invented Democracy..
shame
i did submit it yesterdayyyyyyyyyyyyy..
laughing…
check your Burn folder…malakaaaaaaaaaa:)
PANOS…
not there…yet…sometimes takes awhile…i am going for a sandwich…back soonest….
:(…
ok..i can wait…but my fellow greek detainees…CAN’T…
let me re submit…
W. Kimbell – welcome – if you want to be busy for even longer check out who we were before we were burn – I think David started in January 11, 2007 here:
http://davidalanharvey.typepad.com/road_trip/2007/01/road_trip.html
the next thread is national geographic seminar, click up on it, its next to the word main..
sorry, but have fun!!!
p.s., burn is low on the tech talk but sometimes it oozes out anyway and you might get some answers..
@ Emcd (Erica, righ?)
before I thank you for the link….congratulations on “the light dark of this nothing”! Really impressive work (by the way, you have to tell me one day how you managed to record the audio with such a good quality).
I can imagine that tech talk is not super popular here, but I would really appreciate if someone could help me out with this one. I promise to payback with a cold beer or a good “tinto”…anyone thirsty??
Self-promotion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ghhwdq64bI
PANOS.
call or skype me right now..ready to go with this, but need to ask you a question
PANOS…
ok, got to go with it as an editorial and personal experience by you …i just do not have enough facts to go with it as if it were a straight news story…you ok with that?
kimbell
if you have a chunk of money ..
or if i did..
i would go to a pro lab, or at the least an amateur one, and get them to bulk scan my achieve…. all over again.. :o/
3/4 of a million fuji scanner well serviced will always beat the home options.
i used to use a nikon for 35mm film.. and although there can be “acceptable” results with home ones, i would spend up to 12 hours a week sitting waiting for each 5 minuet zig… ziiiiiiiiiiiig.. zig zig.. smoking and drinking far too much.. very bad for health.
the tonal renditions and texture detail from even an am lab beat my 600 gbp lump of metal any day, and depending on your budget you can go to somewhere like metro in london, who do special deals on bulk scanning.
just an opinion.
d
hmm.. ethics in PJ work firing up again?
:o)
Panos
Nice one, like always. Take care there :)
and did not start more riots, please.
Especially about a girl.
In Troy it was happen ones. Enough.Enough.
PANOS…
the thing you have to do here is attribute what you are saying to someone else..a human rights organization or somebody neutral with authority…it is not that i do not believe you…it is just that these stats on arrests and police behavior need to be substantiated….anyway, i put in an editor’s note disclaimer to that effect…hope you understand…however, if you can get me these stats from any viable source i will take off the editor note…or, if you simply do not like this, i will pull it off immediately….let me know
cheers, david
BuRn becomes breaking international news! Three cheers for DAH and Panos!!! Don’t we wish a Burnian would surface in Tehran today.
PANOS,
Warning …DO not follow the midnight crowd…over …
I repeat …DO NOT …by any means…there is a trap …
I repeat …stay focus…critical
Welcome WILLIAM…maybe WAYNE…I go for WILLIE
sorry for the low tech talk BUT other BURNIANS are trying to help civilians non-photographers like myself…to follow :))) I can try tinto tonight…be around…
Breaking news on Burn. Who would’ve figured. Panos, good job. Now, get some attribution! :)
Kimbell, if you have the money: Imacon scanners.
Imacon scanners…
Please Santa Clause… one for me :)
PANOS,
MR.VINK is right …under singe photo…” suffocation ”
tear gas is under #38
P…you are not focus …:))) have a cold beer …breath
Thank YOU JOHNY…very focused …indeed
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1233906/Masked-youths-streets-Athens-second-day-violence-grips-city
Police said Monday that 780 people had been detained for public order offenses in connection with the demonstrations across Greece during the 48 hours from Saturday until early Monday.
now it’s midnight…
BURN
@david,
Thanks, after checking out a few prices I think I’ll do that…and definitely will be using my brand new 5DMII a lot more.
Cold beer for you when we meet…see how easy that was?
You can hire imacons by the hour at calumet euston.
@ John & Marcin
I thought that for 2 or 3k I could get a state-of-the-art machine….but man those things are expensive!
The only one I can afford is this Nikon Coolscan 9000, but if it just gives “acceptable” quality, I’ll have to select my best 100 images, store the rest, and start a new digi portfolio.
See? as reluctant as I was, now I wish I had switched to digital years ago…
Anyway, thanks and beers for you two!! ;)
W. Kimbell..
a lot of people are very happy with this one, the v700: http://www.epson.com/cgi-bin/Store/consumer/consDetail.jsp?oid=63056499
Not an imacon, but good.
p.s. thank you re: dark light..somewhere in thread I went on a bit about the audio..but ask away if that doesn’t answer
sorry so fragmented, busy as a bee :)
kimbel – photo fusion in brixton do imacon for 250 gbp per day.. or metro do up to 500 scans for 2000gbp or thereabout i think.
another alternative – which i have known to work – is if you have a good reputation with a lab, talk to them and see if they would allow you some after hours use of the machine for a small wedge..
i have known people to do that after a year or 2 dealing with a lab.
also – fuji labs.. snappy snaps and the like.. often charge as little as 1gbp per high res, 16 base scan..
V700 is great for larger formats..
emcd. I have the v750 and its really very good for MF and LF. cant touch a flextight or a drum obviously but for £600 its still a good buy. You do need the third party holders to get the best out of it though, the epson ones are a bit rubbish(in my opinion)
Thanks all. John, I checked out your website (cool btw) and although I guess it’s difficult to rally tell the quality by looking at small digital images, I think I’m going to go with V750 and put the rest of the budget in my next project…(to then submit it to Mr. Harvey ;)
night night and thanks for the welcome Burnians.
CIVI
Got it. Amsterdam. Hugs tight x
There is so much I’d love the chance to discuss with many here. I always seem to open up in here when everyone else is soundly asleep. This being here on the other side of the planet as most of you.
I’m so interested in those characteristic’s of still photography that make it so special. I think the main thing is, is that it is still, a still image can be studied to its minutest detail. I guess the other, particurely with P.J, is that it can capture a moment that happened in real time, snatching it metaphorically from life as we know it to be set aside. Film dose that too but still images seems to amplify it.
We all feel that hypnotism a still image holds us with when its has those special elements with in to emphasize something deep with in us, or something enigmatic.
DAH.
Just read one of your comments about how you don’t hold your own images out in promotion. What I read in that statement was that its the profoundness of images that turns you on, which obviously must include some of your own, but only because it holds those elements that speak to you. What I mean to say is that I have never felt like promoting my images which is probably partly why I’ve never succeeded in making an income from them, but I do love someone else getting what I see in one of my images purely for the fact that we connect about something we both feel. And enables us to discuss what we see and think.
JOHN GLADDY…
you still coming to new york?? crashing my place right?? it is going to look like a hospital ward in my loft..you might be sleeping with Marie….you married?? your wife read Burn? saddle up bro, you are in for a ride….
PETER…
you hit the proverbial nail on the head regarding the showing of work…
ERICA…
i sure hope that one day i can hear your soundtrack properly..when i hear everyone saying how good it is, and on my computer it is totally flawed…it doesn’t load properly or something weird..
As an aside, Christies Auction …
Back from the first real vacation in about five years and had no internet. Towards the end, I was starting to get the shakes and other withdrawal symptoms. Could have sworn I saw a baby crawling on the ceiling. Never been a big fan of the tourist-y vacations, but feeling refreshed and ready to continue my fighter photos. Anyway, seems I have missed a few things around here.
Panos: Be careful, be safe. When you can, please keep us updated on the happenings and your well-being.
W. Kimbell: Welcome to the group. Did you post a link to images that I missed?
jake mendel – short track: Are the comments closed due to concerns about reactions to the essay along the same lines as the White family essay? Just curious. There was some massive potential here, but there seemed to be too many posed shots or too many shots with people looking directly at the photographer. Always seems to keep the viewer at a distance instead of being sucked into the story. I still feel shiny clean when I should feel like I’m covered in engine grease and mud.
DAH – I do wonder why that is, one other person had the same experience, but changed co
computers in the same office and it was fine.
On photos… I was just watching PBS’ Rape of Europa about the 3rd Reich’s theft and devestation of art. One Parisian Jew had lost his entire family but was himself spared so he could work organizing the stolen furniture and art and possessions of other parisian Jews before it was moved to Germany. One day as he was sorting, he came across all his family’s possessions. He risked his life to take a suitcase and fill it with one thing – family photos.
Sorry for iPhone typing and grammar
emcd..
this story is both heart breaking and hopeful for the future of mankind in a strange type of way I don’t think I can explain. Well, yes I can, in that what we hold dear is our emotional relationships. Our heritage.
Erica
that’s quite a story… very poignant…
tom hyde, All…
just followed the link to the Christies auction of photographs (thanks) and i am surprised by some of the price tags attached… a few real classic images in there…
i’ve never really followed photo auctions and such but i would have guessed that some would fetch much more… although i can see that some like Joe Rosenthal’s ‘Rasing the Flag’ shot is only a 5×4 inch print,(and possibly one of many) so maybe $6,250 is a good price?, but still an interesting topic… the value of photographic prints in the art world… why some photographers command higher prices and how many ‘versions’ of a print have an effect versus paintings where there is only one original… hhmmmm gets me confused…
DAH. Yeah getting in late wednesday night. Need some way of contacting you when I get to brooklyn.
Whos Marie????? Does she snore???
W.Kimbell. Hi. Are you who I think you are? The borrower of haselblads?
John.
sean is on lensblog NYT
http://lens.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/12/08/showcase-89/
JOHNG,
may all the travel spirits be with you !!! MARIE is beautiful …she only hugs …!!!
enjoy.oime…we are jealous :)))
KIMBELL is your name Wayne and are you from California…??? anyways, welcome again…
enjoy !!!
MARKW,
VIVA Amsterdam …!!!meet you in the Rosse Buurt area :)))
BRIANF,
“…Could have sworn I saw a baby crawling on the ceiling”…Could you ??? bugs and hugs
TOMH,
Christies auction…
diamond by… 6,000.000
chair by….12,000.000
photo by DAVID ALAN HARVEY…priceless …
P.S I LOVE you ALL …
Civi,
are you going to be in Amsterdam any time soon? Please let me know.
Just had a look on Sean’s essay on lensblog NYT. Very nice images!
Great work!!!
CHECK IT OUT!!!!! Our very own Sean Gallagher is featured on the NY Times Lens Blog!!!! James Estrin has written an excellent article and posted an edit of 18 of Sean’s photos on today’s entry called “Showcase: Shifting Sands.”
http://lens.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/12/08/showcase-89/
Congratulations, Sean. You deserve it!!!
Patricia
Sam, my mistake was scrolling down to the books and manuscripts auction. Ah, I would dearly love a signed Clemens but I am quite happy with the first edition Water for Elephants I picked up the other day in my favorite dusty bookshop.
REIMAR,
I am trying to make some travel plans …due to my work …I am not that flexible…
Hmmm, you will be the first to know…
Are you going …Amsterdam…???
Well, I wish all the professors at the University …had the heart (and the looks)
of YOURS …VIVA REIMAR !!!
BURNIANS,
time for celebration…again …SEAN is on the screen…
and so we can Screammmmmmmmmmmmmm
PANOS – while you’re over there dealing with that stuff, we’ve got bigger fish to fry in LA. USC lost on Saturday, my first ever time on the sideline —
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jarediorio/sets/72157622835081543/show/
…so what were you saying now about detainees and dead 15-year olds.
Last time I felt like this it was shooting the Laker parade while Iran was revolting. Surreal. People nthe streets for totally different reasons.
thought some of you guys might enjoy this:
THE DAY OF THE DEAD …
BUT it feels like I wanna dance with those kids…I wanna hug them all and say …
“You can do better …out from the tear gassed graves, out from the blind violence and injustice… ”
THE DAY OF THE DEAD,
maybe for all of us in the Universe …THE DAY of THE PASSION of Life !!!
and as I long as I am alive…I will scream…
I LOVE YOU ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
P.S self portrait …can you try …for once…to : Do Not Tell it As It iS…
…hihihi, just a suggeation…VIVA !!!
JOHN GLADDY…
take a taxi (tell them in advance you go to Williamsburg) and have him/her take you on the BQE (Brooklyn/Queens expressway) to the Kent Ave exit…have driver turn RIGHT on Kent Ave….about a mile down on the RIGHT is 475 Kent (right after you cross Division st)..ugly/beautiful 11 story building..buzz 607….phone 202 413-1137 from JFK no more than half an hour with no traffic…Marie is my ex-studio manager and now working like hell on CIRCUS…..she asked me the same thing about you…
BEN ROBERTS..
thanks for finding this…very powerful, just sad…well done documentary work….
SEAN GALLAGHER…
nice piece on Lens blog amigo…congratulations….i knew you would continue your work…book next?
David B…Patricia…Thank you for posting the link. I am absolutely delighted about the showcase. Managed to get a plug for Burn in there too, which was great!
David AH…Absolutely! It is constantly on my mind. Would be the perfect way to end this subject. I think it deserves a book. We need to Skype about this sometime. Let me know if you have a window in the schedule!
Best,
Sean
sean g! :)))))
great great stuff…so wonderful to have seen this project ‘bloom’ from the EPF…cinematic and heart-breaking….book, indeed, next…
running
b
why not a movie?
Panos…I like your ambition! Will you direct ;)
Sean…
and i like your commitment…
i will never forget our last talk in that C/Ville airport..
we both agreed… we will commit..we will push it till we cant push it no more…
we will deliver…
( actually u already delivered…your name is everywhere… as it should..
Sean u r the new breed..
u r the FUTURE..
im happy you consider me a friend of yours..)
big hug
Sam / Peter
here is a trailer piece about Rape of Europa (which tells the epic story of the systematic theft, deliberate destruction and miraculous survival of Europe’s art treasures during the Third Reich and World War II)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbRA3SmHTsM
The man I mentioned isn’t in the trailer, but what an important story all around…
Very nice Sean! Congrats.
Waimea Bay, the Eddie Aikau Big Wave invitational is happening NOW. LIVE online.
http://live.quiksilver.com/2009/eddie/live.php?btn_live=_over
1400! YES! WOOHOO!
We will now continue with our regularly scheduled program already in progress
thx emcd.
Yes, I can well imagine that many of these tragic stories would also make , ironically, a fantastic movie or novel.
I think the example you gave of a man who was helping with in to save precious pieces of art came across his own families possessions and out of all the gold and diamonds chose his families photo collection. Too heartbreaking to think about.
Family photographs are many peoples most precious possessions.
This very afternoon, as a customer was picking up prints I had made of her recently deceased husband,( I managed to crop a head shot of the man from a small group portrait we had taken of them a few years ago). As she was leaving, a man came into the studio holding a 4x6in snapshot of eight people, standing shoulder to shoulder, squinting into the sun. Could I please try to crop a head shot of his recently deceased father from the group. The man’s head on the print was smaller than my little fingernail. The snap was dated 1997. It was the best picture they could find of him.
We are asked to do this kind of thing many times a year.
Make portraits of the people you love. They will be some of the most important photographs you ever make. Do you have a great recent portrait of you kids, your spouse, your parents, your best friends.
Yet for all the “value” of family photographs, people’s attitude toward these photos is mostly benign neglect, often storing them in the attic or garage. I think they are not really as valuable to people as all that, until they need to rummage through them to find an old snapshot to get a head crop of a dead relative for the obit.
Photos also store bad memories of broken relationships and lost childhoods. And I think that with the advent of digital, and the transitory nature of those files, that family snapshots will soon be a quaint anachronism, despite the bazillion of photos being taken and deleted from memory cards today. I know I have rarely looked back at family photos, and have only two or three that hold any interest to me today.
Photos also store bad memories of broken relationships and lost childhoods… I know I have rarely looked back at family photos, and have only two or three that hold any interest to me today…
——————————————————————————————–
i agree..i dont even have one photo… i get depressed seeing all those dead people ….
i’d rather go with my memory that only kept the “goog” the “positive” stuff…
Got this living stuff to do and my own stories to tell and live. Still they have uses in tales from the past not tales of the dead
JIMMY …PANOS…
you are definitely NOT Civilians …)))
I am cooking BURNED BBQ …for MIKE’S party…
KATIE …MyGRACIE(your email needs attention) …POMARA…OURPATRICIA…HAIK…
…,….,…,
bazillion HUGS
remnants of my lost family remind me much more than photographs.. pretty much because i have no photos, and only an estranged mother and brother to not hear from.
i have one photo only of my late father, it´s on the wall which i walk past every day without a glance.. yet taking out his brass taxi license badge stops me cold..
smiling family members in photos must go a long way to help forgetting the realities of christmas arguments and fights at the dinner table.
My wife has no pictures of herself before she was 16. There are no pictures of her mother before she was 14. There are no pictures of her father. There are only the stories she tells…
stories are the way i remember people.. as much as my proffessional life has been spent building a personal album of sorts it´s the stories they provoke which effect me most.. the photos which remind me of unphotographed moments.
it is strange – as jim hints – it seems much more about the gathering and tradition of taking photos than it is about the reviewing of them later..
now, my young family has been photographed from the pregnancy test through labour n birth and everyday since.. with the intention of making a ^year 1^ piece for tor and his Norwegian family, (which is large thankfully).. but lord alive it´s tough wading through so many snaps.
Old abandoned family photos……..
Check out this vid, Artist Fabien Breuvart collected rubbish bags full of anonomous vintage family pictures and dropped them outside a VIP photo Gala at the Louvre.
Pictures inside were expecting to realise seriously high prices, but the international art crowd seemed more interested in the Free vintage pics.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgNhXB7xRi8&feature=player_embedded
Herve might help with the translation.
cheers
thats classic.. love it ian..
so.. are other peoples family photos more interesting than our own? more so if they are old?
Old pictures, especially family pictures tell a lot of past times. What were people wearing, which culture did they have. “Zeitgeist” …
From my own family I have a few snapshots in a box somewhere … my younger son hides as soon he sees the camera, the elder one .. does not care being photographed. He has his focus on other things.
I rarely look to the past, but when I see those old pictures, and me as a child or youth. … makes me smile. The clothes we wore … :)
part of the reason i have no old photos is that for a while in my mid/late 20´s, when i was borrowing couches and that jazz, a box of my negatives and old photos were left in someones celler.. every negative i shot before 16 and immediate family photos rotted away.
it was a strange happening, since the early photos i took were my best friends at the time i took them – but while similar in sensation, they did not amount to even a 100th of a percent of the feelings of loosing someone close.
needless to say i am more careful with negatives these days – but it changed my perception of photography since up until that point i neglected so much for the sake of it.. to the expense of friendships, relationships and security..
old photographs are fascinating, yet only if they have people in for me.. any other subject, no matter how impressive the snap, just does not hit the spot.
I don’t know this person but I do have a heap of time for the photo http://www.etrouko.com.au/iman.htm
I remember once when I was a cadet photographer on “the Townsville Buletin” and an old man came to the office asking for me , he explained that he had just come in to the East Coast on the bus from Western Australia to attend his sons funeral. His son’s name was ” grub ” , that’s the name he gave me and thats the name I put in my captions for the spread in the paper that the old man had found in the bag that contained his sons worldly goods where grub was in the left of one picture in a couple of pages on some outback gathering or other.
He asked me if I had any more photos of his son from that day , I had several but allways Grugb was in the background ,never the centre of attention,never the subject of the photo, I printed up an 8 X 10 of every frame I had with Grub in it , even made some massive blow ups where grub was the only guy in the photo , less than flattering , but something the old man and his wife could put on their wall and say that this was our son , he died when he was 26 .
These were the only photos they had of their son as a man!
I think sometimes we lose track of how important the pictures we take might be to others.
IAN,
tres beau …indeed …tres beau !!!
quel est pour ne pas aimer !!!???
Where are you our French BURNIANS ??? HERVE,AUDREU,DAVIDB…oime
and where are you …tell it as it is…??? are you embedded with the Athenian garbage ???
I am still waiting …
P.S DAVIDB kiss one of the most photographed BURNbabies …
KATIE FONSECA …i am sending BBQ with LOVE
IMANTS ..kiss M…how many “etrouko pictures” are you hiding in your sleeves???
ROSSY,FRANCESCO,MARK,W.KIMBELL,JULIETTE,GLENN,LASSAL,JAMES,MARCIN…REIMAR…PETE
…BBB…BBB.BBBB….BBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBBURNIANS
qué es de no adorar???
JIM.
a thought about family photo albums, What I feel is that they represent a part of the heritage of that family. So, in that we may not look through those albums frequently I don’t think sums up the true value family photo albums have for many individuals and the wider family.
What I meant was that I think many of us can treasure a family album like an heirloom. Particularly if there are a few generations of photos there, which we want to hand on to the next generation. The family tree. a visual story.
I remember DAh posting once that he believes family photos are important, in that they serve us as memory triggers. The older I get, the most I appreciate this assistance :-) Who knows, maybe I would forget about that picnic at the park if not for the snapshot I took…
For me, Gene McSweeney is the patron saint of the family snapshot (he posts on another forum I frequent, usually lurking). This gentleman rescues “found film” – film that has been exposed but never developed – left in old cameras that he collects or that others send to him (I once sent him a roll of 127 I found in a Brownie Reflex at Goodwill). Here’s a couple of links to his website:
http://westfordcomp.com/updated/found.htm
http://westfordcomp.com/updated/whatsnew.htm (found film denoted in red)
Take time to read his captions, too! I think they’re pretty funny.
Justin…
great stuff! thanks for posting.
ERICA
check out the hawkeye shots!!!
http://westfordcomp.com/classics/hawkeye1109/hawkeye.html
Sam, the Hawkeye photos are great! Where did you find the camera?
good light,
a.
About many people keeping their family photos tucked away – I’ve always thought of that more as burying your treasure for safekeeping.
I love my family’s old photos..every time I can rationalize the expense, I get them professionally matted with custom frames..I have a stack prioritized of more that I want on my walls, and i say good morning and good night every day. As “imperfect” as my family is, I see no weight in having the photos around, i see only the promise in each individual and the love and the unity that we created at one time.
sam – those are neat and SH*T!!! but thanks you just reminded me I need 620 film or figure out how to respool 120 for tomorrow when my hawkeye and I will meet for the first time..
Oh…and regarding old family photos….I rent a safe deposit box specifically for negatives….
I wish I had more older family photos…by the tiem I came along, my parents were pretty much out of the “gee-whiz” aspect of having kids (my brother was already in college!) and so I have very few pictures from when I was growing up, or even of my grandparents….
a.
my family photographs, both old and new, are my most valuable possessions…as many of you know i am now doing a limited edition set of 15 “copies” of my original 1958 family essay of one year of our family which was presented as a handmade Christmas gift for my grandparents..i am back in darkroom printing this album…i have found on the net some vintage albums and will reproduce as close as possible to the original…of course each one will be slightly different and will be its own “original”…my Off For A Family drive project of course will reflect my personal love for family snapshots to include many American families across the country….still two years off on completing this project for book and exhibition…
As a portrait photographer specializing in family portraits, I am acutely aware of how important these photographs are to people. And after 25 years and many thousands of portrait, I think I’ve got a fair idea of why people want portraits, and what they want the photographs to say about them.
People want portraits to celebrate their lives. Ideally, the family portrait conveys the harmony and love that is at the core of most family groups. Yes, this is only part of the spectrum of how families relate, but is the ideal that most strive for. Sometimes our families drive us crazy, there may be deep underlying tensions, or dark secrets, but the family portrait can help ground us and remind us of what is truly important.
I could go on and on here.
Cheers Y’all,
Family portraits! I can think of only one person who treasures them as they should be treasured, and that is my grandmother. Her entrance doorway is filled with old black&white portraits.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_-BKac-hmSHg/SwRC025pynI/AAAAAAAAAP8/voYBHb9kp2M/s1600/slektninger.jpg
Justin
Thanks a lot for the links, got me in a nostalgic mood now…
My parents always moan that they have hardly any family event photos with me in them. I hate having my photo taken, yet photograph others. What a hypocrite I am!
Cheers
David B
“old photographs are fascinating, yet only if they have people in for me..”
Agreed, but I also think interior can also be very fascinating and tell a lot about the people who lived there. But that would make me curious on how those people looked like, so I guess ultimately what I desire to look at in photographs are people.
“Her entrance doorway is filled with old black&white portraits”
Yeah, it seems like older folks always have a “wall of dead relatives” on display. :)
ok..let me re post in cutouts in case u missed my “room”…
ok..ALL..
as i promised..
new reportage from the city of Athens ( garbage , trash and ancient glory )
click below:
http://picasaweb.google.com/innerspacecowpanos/Tif19?authkey=Gv1sRgCIfV_P2nrP63tgE#slideshow/5413330230471142898
Bjarte – how beautiful!
andrew b
all credit goes to Justin Smith, he posted above me. i just reposted a direct link to the hawkeye shots…
ERICA
good luck! looking forward to seeing some… ; )
Particularly if there are a few generations of photos there, which we want to hand on to the next generation.
We is not the next generation they may feel otherwise and the seagulls amay well be the best company at the local tip that the old photos have.
It is an individual thing many don’t give a rat’s arse about photos old or new.
DAVID … ALL,
“it will be interesting to see where you go now as a photographer”
that’s a good question :)
I’m currently on the way to find myself. There is so much to learn, when I read the discussions in the different dialogues. The pictures, Panos took in Greece, other discussions happing here… the phase before the exibition of Mike’s pictures…
Here is a little selection of single pictures I took during the last weeks, mainly in November:
http://flickr.com/gp/tfelix/qh5m9q
And a little essay, when my son Lars had a surgery on his finger:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/tfelix/sets/72157622252372313/
Here however, I have the impression I took too many very obvious pictures.. and no context pictures…
it was my first surgery, .. being suprised to be allowed to photograph inside even ..
So, here they are… burn on.
BJARTE..
it is interesting how i so enjoy looking at pictures like these even though i have no idea who these people are or anything about them…i find myself looking at any one of them and i start imagining or wondering about their lives..i kept looking at the man in the oval frame at the top…wondering…
David, Bjarte
Yes, I collect old photographs. I don’t know the people pictured in these images, but the magic of photography is that I can look into the eyes of people long dead, and relate, see a piece of my own humaity in their eyes. The photograph has a real connection with reality and the past, like a clay imprssion. It is endlessly magic for me.
BJARTE, that is a lovely presentation arranged by your grandmother; I really like those old oval frames with the convex glass. My grandfather had a photograph in a similar frame of my great-great grandfather & mother. My father said that he was a bit “creeped-out” as a boy – the convex glass made it seem as those their eyes were following him around the room…
SAM, I just sent you an e-mail on a though about “Postcards”.
Good night, everyone!
In progress – 170 images there now and a few hundred more to upload – Bucharest 20 years Later Archive:
http://www.photoshelter.com/c/davinellicson/gallery/A-Vision-of-Bucharest-20-Years-Later/G0000f6Xv2paFjZ0/
A new kind of rep: http://www.instituteartistmanagement.com/index.php
I did not take the image in this post as either journalism or art, but only as a snapshot to give to the Iñupiat mother and her daughter. But now a decision has been made to allow exploratory oil drilling in their garden and she sent me an email expressing her feelings. I put her email on my blog along with the picture so that more people could read her words.
http://wasillaalaskaby300.squarespace.com/journal/2009/12/9/taktuks-email-regarding-interiors-decision-to-allow-shell-oi.html
FROSTFROG,
…WE ARE INUPIAQ!
I wish I can hug Taktuk and all of our friends from Alaska…
Again…I am SPEECHLESS…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zoq8X3D31DE&feature=related
Bob Dylan – It’s Alright Ma (I’m Only Bleeding)
BUT
as long as I live …I will not give up …I am a civilian …after …all.
Now this is interesting: http://www.1854.eu/2009/11/watching_people_watching_porn.html
bjarte..
that seems to be such a thing in norway – remember in alex´s family project the entrance wall was also full.. bea parents have a couple of walls of them.. nice snap of some snaps.
the 2nd word war colour photos are amazing.. seeing the colour makes them much easier to relate to i think – and the horror they lived through much less alien.
This is interesting too: http://whitehotmagazine.com/articles/in-conversation-with-richard-mosse/1981
Apropos of I don’t know what, 21st century family pictures perhaps, turns out my daughter’s picture is on a Google Maps street view. Apparently kids “walk around” neighborhoods they know and those who turn up in a pic achieve a small amount of fame. The photography’s kind of interesting as documentation. Maybe not so much now, but in 50 years probably much more so.
davin
interesting bit on porn…..
for my latest project, I am currently working with constance penley, who started the 1st porn 101 class!! anyway, interesting…
more interested in the verbal content than seeing their pleasure!!!
***
michael w – have you seen this?
http://www.npr.org/blogs/pictureshow/2009/11/meet_the_next_best_street_phot.html
“Has Google joined the ranks of Robert Frank and Helen Levitt? Can Google capture what Cartier-Bresson referred to as the “decisive moment”? Does Google have the cool, objective perspective that photojournalists strive to attain? Jon Rafman might argue so. By scouring the street view offered by Google Maps, he has culled dozens of image that Google can add to its art portfolio.”
emcd – new meaning to the phrase spray n pray..
Erica, no I hadn’t but am not the least bit surprised. I wouldn’t be all that surprised if one day satellites take hi-res photos of every square inch of the earth and “photographers” will be those who scour through those images to crop and retouch and use according to their needs or vision.
Erica, David, David, Justin
I’m happy that you guys liked it and will let my grandmother know that her entrance doorway is becoming world known :)
David B
I’m not sure if this is typical Norwegian, like Jim says it’s typical for older people to care more for treasuring portraits of their families and relatives, living or dead, I don’t think it’s just here in Norway. But I might be wrong.
How was it in England?
Good afternoon (or morning, or evening!) all.
I hope I will be forgiven a little gratuitous self-promotion here… But it appears the NPCA magazine, National Parks, has won an award. And it turns out to be the issue in which a story Amy Marquis and I did about wounded veterans appeared. How cool is that?!
Anyway, just wanted to share.
http://www.foliomag.com/2009/2009-eddie-and-ozzie-award-winners
(you’ll need to scroll down a bit to ‘National Parks’)
Peace.
a civilian mass-audience – Thank you!
Concerning family photographs:
I suspect that just about everyone worked as a journalist and covered a fire, a flood, or any event where a house and the contents were destroyed but the people got out alive has heard the same thing I have: again and again, it is the family photos that people consider the biggest loss.
I think that speaks to their value.
Come on… FROSTFROG,
focus…Thank you !!!
hugs and bugs and whatever our FROSTIE wishes…:)))
By the way…with that post…I felt how …WE ARE ALL ONE …just floating in this Universe…
MICHAELK,
…I told you so…few months ago…:)))
therefore ..all the BURNIANS are waiting …cause tonight …mythos and red wine and whatever you have in your home ON YOU…
CONGRATULATIONS MICHAEL KIRCHER
CONGRATULATIONS ,CONGRATULATIONS !!!
BJARTE,
you are RIGHT…more than we would like to believe…
WE ARE ALL ONE …IMO
Can I say it…???
Just a little note about how you can earn 8 Million Euros with some cameras and flashlights.
Interested? Sure.
As DAH says: location is everything. My fellow countrymen from Bielefeld took this advice very seriously and so they planted several speed cameras on the local A2 (autobahn). In the course of the year these cameras went to work 260 000 times. The result was an awful lot of images that had to be looked upon, number plates had to be researched, finds had to be sent. That is how we creat jobs. Several extra office people were hired plus 8 additional lawyers. In total these cameras brought in 10 million Euros, 2 million were spent on staff and equipment. That means 8 million Euro extra for the city of Bielefeld to fix schools and other stuff.
Only 7000 people complained about violating the 100 Km/h speed limit. The amount of accidents was not reduced. No comment was made about the quality of the images. I haven’t got one myself so far.
Here is a picture I took about a year ago:
http://www.radarbielefelda2.com/archivbeitraege
Thanks Civi! Yes, you did tell me.
Love your enthusiasm. Quite contagious.
Red wine, by the way…
Stin ygia sou!
BIG congrats, Michael!!!
Patricia
BURNIANS,
“Our brightest blazes of gladness are commonly kindled by unexpected sparks.”
Samuel Johnson (English Poet, Critic and Writer. 1709-1784)
THANK YOU …that’s for someone out there …A BURNIAN with a heart of gold
MICHEALK,
Ouzo and olives,by the way…
VIVA megale !!!
REIMAR,
without the cameras …we would never see your face…
THANK you our PATRICIA for that !!!
Your snapshot is Priceless
I LOVE YOU ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
p.S KATIE…kiss Juliette and mom and the son and …everyone…LOVE
one eye Open…one eye Dreaming …
for ALL the BURNing givers …
Goodnight …and I hug you all …
just a Civilian BUT Mass A…
michael kircher – Major congrats! Great shot too!
Brian… thanks!
But if you’re talking about the cover shot… that’s not mine. That’s Ian Shive’s. And yes it is a great shot. All my stuff is on the inside. You can see what it looks like here:
http://www.michaelkircher.com/publishedwork.htm
Thank you, too, Patricia!
MICHAEL K..
CONGRATULATIONS…
It was your story from beginning to the end…
u brought the award to the magazine,,
right on…
Hey Reimar
how about an exhibition!
public street art : )
or a book… ; ))
Panos!
Ha-ha… I wouldn’t say that, but thanks man!
When do you return to LA?
Michael Kircher,
Nice Work! ….from a veteran paddler (in both senses), and a guy whose bread and butter photo work has often been trails, bikes, etc. related stuff. Solid magazine PJ…Show us more!
Reimar; Speaking of traffic cameras etc. I thought this true UK story from a year or so ago the might give you a laugh.
Two British traffic patrol officers from North Berwick were involved in an unusual incident while checking for speeding motorists on the A1 Great North Road. One of the officers used a hand-held radar device to check the speed of a vehicle approaching over the crest of a hill, and was surprised when the speed was recorded at over 300 mph. Their radar suddenly stopped working and the officers were not able to reset it.
Just then a deafening roar over the treetops revealed that the radar had in fact latched on to a NATO Tornado fighter jet which was engaged in a low-flying exercise over the Border district, approaching from the North Sea.
Back at police headquarters the chief constable fired off a stiff complaint to the RAF Liaison office. Back came the reply in true laconic RAF style:
“Thank you for your message, which allows us to complete the file on this incident. You may be interested to know that the tactical computer in the Tornado had detected the presence of, and subsequently locked onto, your hostile radar equipment and automatically sent a jamming signal back to it.
Furthermore, an air-to-ground missile aboard the fully-armed aircraft had also automatically locked onto your equipment. Fortunately the pilot flying the Tornado recognized the situation for what it was, quickly responded to the missile systems alert status, and was able to override the automated defence system before the missile was launched and your hostile radar installation was destroyed. Good Day…”
Ross, I love that response :-) Thank you for the chuckle before retiring for the night!
go
michael
go….
congratulations!!!
***
Plausible………….. Ross
Imants; It certainly makes the boy racer cruising the streets in the souped up Evo look a bit soft! :-)
VIVA AUSSIES …!!!
SAM HARRIS,
I love your portraits…
and yes,REIMAR … will publish a book …
ah, those academians…
PARTY…I smell Party…I smell BBQ …where are you BURNIANS ???
Michael,
good on ya!
Ross,
you made me laugh this morning! Thanks for that! What is a souped up Evo?
Sam,
a book or an exhibition with these images of “scenes behind the wheel” would certinly be an eccentric idea…
Burnians, enjoy the day!
Reimar that camera may make blurry Capa D Day stuff but the number plates are probably in focus and sharp as…………
…..Michael great stuff
Wendy: re: porn, yes what the first girl was saying about porn actually empowering women was interesting. I sort of agree on that point, I mean it’s the women who are the object of desire. Same when I take pictures of women on the street here in Bucharest, I feel that they are the ones calling the shots so to speak (pardon the pun). Women can control a lot through their beauty and sexuality.
“Women can control a lot through their beauty and sexuality.”
must be how margarette thatcher got away with so much.
must be..
Thanks everybody… Sidney, Wendy, Reimar, Imants… Muchas gracias!
Peace.
ah, those academians…
ah, those Macademia ( nuts )
ADMIN,
Can we use the F…word…???
oime…Today, we have Sex, BBQ, Blues and Booze…
WHAT NOT TO BURN ???
Who will be the first hung-over Burnian at the “Kibbutz” to wake up and post a comment here? ;^}
michael kircher – I was talking about the cover, but I’m seriously digging the inside shots you posted. Getting that crane image must have made your day.
Michael K, It’s a great feeling when your work is part of the reason for being honored (honoured). Good work!
Paul
Hey Brian, thanks.
Yeah, have to admit, that was pretty gratifying. You hang out down there long enough and cool things sometimes just happen! ;^}
davin:
if used correctly: beauty + sexuality= power……
WENDY,
I am with you …BUT…in case …I am missing an ingredient …
can I use substitutes ,or no…?
Hey Paul,
You’re right of course, and thanks. However…and I don’t want to sound all “it’s an honor just being nominated!”… but seriously, working with Amy Marquis, NPCA, and most especially those wounded men and women from Walter Reed was honor enough. Quite an experience.
civi
oh yes…….
W.
CUBA with LOVE…
BURN with LOVE
oh yes :)
and working with MICHAELK,
priceless…!!!
POMARA,
thanks for the BBQ…I am just waiting for the BAG …
WHAT NOT TO LOVE !!!
ANTIOS …I will be back …
David Bowen:
““Women can control a lot through their beauty and sexuality.”
must be how margarette thatcher got away with so much.
must be..”
:)))))))))))))
Crazy Little Thing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jQ560bfOMI
It’s Friday night here in Bucharest and Becks beer tastes oh so good after a week at the computer working on images.
“davin:
if used correctly: beauty + sexuality= power……”
…..and if not,……
Congrats Michael!
Some more shameless self-promotion.. http://www.52editions.com
Davin
That’s hilarious that you posted that Queen link.
Check out the video at the 2:48 mark and then go to the image I just
posted on my website for comparison
This was from Montreal in 1980-81, I think
http://www.marktomalty.com/#a=0&at=0&mi=2&pt=1&pi=10000&s=0&p=4
Hi y’all….just a heads up there’s a new room open – Mike & Mike….come on by, even though it seems the NYC burn crowd is maintaining radio silence after last night’s blowout….who knows, it might still be going on!
Thanks Martin. Groovy website you have there!
Mark,
Too cool! I kept toggling back and forth from your image to the video and couldn’t find that one “off” thing. That’s the show for sure!
Michael,
Just to make it clear 52 Editions isn’t my website. I’ve just published a print editon there.
Cheers
Michael
I pretty sure the youtube clip is taken from a DVD that featured that concert.
I remember seeing parts of it on PBS last year and could see myself shooting from the front
row a few times. Very bizarre to see oneself 30+ years ago!
Those were the days, though, when you could buy a scalped front row ticket for $50 and shoot
without the 3 song rule or fear of getting kicked out.
Reimar; “What is a souped up Evo?”
A customised Mitsubishi Evo that the boy racers cruising the streets here in NZ love. Well, not always boy racers…
http://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/news/christchurch/2458753/Nana-leaves-boy-racers-gasping
David B; “Women can control a lot through their beauty and sexuality.” must be how margarette thatcher got away with so much…
You might not be too far off the mark there. I remember hearing a UK survey where Maggie was in the top 5 of women that most UK men would like to “spend the night with”; if you get my drift…. She out-ranked Kylie Minogue. Make what you will of that statistic! :-))
Cheers
Michael K, ain’t it great to have talented folks pushing your stuff out front!
CIVI, You are the BBQ best, whether it’s a Boston butt or a brisket!!!
What’s not to smoke!
Meet me at Chason Park on the banks of the Flint River. Don’t come if you
don’t have Ribs from Anthony’s One Stop. Bring lots of paper towels!!!
Paul
I think it’s often power that makes someone attractive and desirable, regardless of sex, and if I had a top 5 people to photograph list she’d definitely be there.
Vicky; “top 5 people to photograph”
Who are they? You’ve started me thinking about who my top 5 would be!
How about alive or dead to throw a curve ball into the mix? :-)
VICKY
‘power that makes someone attractive and desirable, regardless of sex…..’
EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!
***
Paul…Ross…Vicky…Mtomaly…Martin….
a new room is open – come join us there! although at the moment it seems most of the NYC burnians are maintaining radio silence in respect of (because of?) last night’s blowout party…..
what not to love! see you guys over in “Mike & Mike”….
ANDREWB,
don’t send any BURNIANS …over to the “Mike & Mike” room cause …
it’s full with silents …:)))
VICKY,
power of LOVE
power of Happiness
power of brains
power of smell
POWERHOUSE…Power is on the house …
ROSSSY,
top 5 people to photograph…???
5 Civilians !!!
let’s BURN some Power…POMARA …let’s go to ANTHONY’S for some butt BBQ …!!!
LASSAL…HAIK…
Can we keep submitting ??? is the tick-talk …tick-talk ???
whatnottolove !!!
JIMMY,
I am between number #1 and number #2…
I am watching…
“To be forever reaching out, to remain unsatisfied, is the key to spiritual progress”
quote from …someone …:)))
oups…more…UNTITLED …
IMANTS…JOGHNY…oime
I better start eating…as NOW…
I don’t wanna end up untitled …
P.S POMARA …3 rounds of BBQ …as Now :)))
Jim wrote “Beyond that, though, we know nothing about it”….. so we click onto the link supplied by Jim and same type presentation a bunch of pics and we know nothing about. Jim also states later that “Context matters” yet he does not place his own images into a context………… Go figure, maybe he has lost the plot.10-14
10-80
I am calling you out on this aspect about the necessity of context Jim………..
Can I request something with blue skies soon please, and clear colours and beauty and room to breathe.
Thanks.
:)
Imants, I’m not sure what interpretation you can give to a bunch of kids playing in water except that they are a bunch of kids playing in water. Do they seem ambiguous to you?
VICKY,
I opened the windows !!!
…it might be …my silents …:)))
love
civi, i hope the sun’s shining.
:)
VICKY,
in BURNLAND…we have all kind of weather…
different tastes…in music…in food…art…approach to life
BUT
we all agree in one …WE LOVE IT BURNED !!!
VIVA BURNIANS !!!
P.S and VIVA Salisbury, S.ENGLAND
Vicky; It is down here in the Sthn Hemisphere! I’ll “forget” to mention that it was grey, wet and windy yesterday though! :-)
and VIVA Texas…Latvia…New Zealand
and VIVA AUSTRALIA
and AMERICA…AFRICA…ASIA…ALASKA…NORTH SOUTH POLE…EUROPE
I believe in YOU …LASSAL, HAIK…BURNIANS
Goodnight from Grecoland …Please Submit !!!
What Ross neglects to mention when he says “it was grey, wet and windy yesterday though!” is that it was also GREEN!!! He showed me his parent’s patio/garden outside the window when we Skyped and let me tell you, that patch of green looked mighty sweet. Here in Detroit the wrld looks very different indeed…
Patricia
Ah yes Patricia; but we get four seasons in one day here!! :-)
Oh; and don’t forget you’re invited to the Xmas Day barbeque too Patricia! And there will definately be some booze and blues to go with it….
Xmas BBQ…!!!
Life is beautiful …let’s get GREEN and be HAPPY …
DAVIDB,
JIM is drinking ouzo with me …via Skype !!!
What not to Love …
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