“Having a story to tell and willingness to tell it, is nothing – a total zero… ability to do it is much more important and valuable…”
this is just a part of a very provocative, and soon to be very controversial comment, by one of our readers , Anthony RZ , under our most recent multimedia essay by Kerry Payne…so provocative, that i felt it should be right out here for general discussion…why? because it is one of the most important discussions in photography today in my view…..this topic has been discussed a bit before here on Burn and on my previous Road Trips blog, but i do not think it can ever be thought about enough…..please read the entire comment by Anthony…it will definitely make you jump one way or the other….
the discussion here should not be to single out Kerry who obviously has a heartfelt story to tell and who will most likely be moved to tears by the comment of Anthony….any form of diplomacy/sensitivity was clearly not his intent…however, he was honestly direct…..i do not want to fuel that fire for its own sake, yet at the same time with passions now raw among us and surely on full alert, this seems like a good time for more of a general discussion about content and form …about stories to tell….about the ability to tell them….about storytelling and storytellers….and clearly about the medium itself…and even about the purity of still photography and it’s morphing into multimedia….
obviously we all want a great story, brilliantly told…but, the question here put forth by Anthony is of priorities….
so, what do you think?
what is most important for you as a viewer: the story or the ability to tell it ?
My cousin died by suicide at the age of 35. We were the same age. We were very close, like brothers. I have always wondered over the years what I could have done. This helps. Thanks Kerry.
Both the story and the ability to tell are a must in order to transcend.
Kerry’s story is one full of emotion and pain. Touches our sensitivity very deeply, as it speaks about death of the loved ones. It’s a difficult subject to document, and I think that being a part of it, as Kerry is, might be a problem for her, as a photographic essay requires not only a good story but the ability to make aesthetic decisions that are easier to make when you are emotionally detached of the subject.
I value her work from other perspective, from the courage of taking the decision to do it, for the effort and emotional commitment that must have been making all those interviews and taking all those pictures.
An example of good, striking story which is (in my point of view) brilliantly presented and that connects you with strong emotions is this one, about Narcolepsy: http://jmcolberg.com/weblog/2010/07/uwe_h_martin/.
In any case, I think Anthony RZ has a point, but I would never justify his manners…
Ariel.
The ability to tell the story has to come first, although the story is important. But we all know from reading great literature that even the simplest story can be lifted up from the mundane by a great storyteller. As photographers, we have to find a way to tell the story, whatever the story.
The reality is, though, that we can never fully develop our storytelling skills unless we find stories that have personal meaning. I’d be interested to hear from David if he can think of his top 20 personal projects over the years, and how many of those were stories that had no personal meaning for him — I’m guessing none. Our passion for the story is what propels us forward and upward, and what forces us to improve our ability to tell that story.
what comes out at the end, is the key.
I do understand Anthony’s comment in the way that if you take weak photographs and mix some sound, voice to it, it still is a weak result. However, people may say they like it because they are distracted from the photographs by the sound.
If there are strong photographs, telling a story of its own, the sound etc is not necessary BUT this then can give the essay a even stronger thing.
However, if the pictures speak for themselfs, one could keep them separate from the sound. The viewer can use their own speed in looking at the pictures.
Looking at a multimedia environment like burn, why not experimenting and see the outcome? Finally, it is a matter of the chosen medium. Here I appreciate the way Anton takes with his Yakuza project – presenting the work in different forms.
Basis for all are the story told by the pictures. So the ability to tell the story is as important as the story itself.
Anthony obviously contributed something that provokes us into discussing something important, and that is helpful. I hope we get a link from him of a photographic essay(s), with sound (and without sound), that he thinks really works. If you look at literature, there are just so many ways to tell a story, from David Alan Harvey’s favorite Latin American writers, to Raymond Carver’s America, to Kafka’s stories, to Nigerian Amos Tutola’s unconventional and ungrammatical novella written by a real amateur. Can’t there be many kinds of photography that are all equally provocative, and great? Can’t an untrained amateur tell a good story with bad shot photos? This is theoretical: badly shot photos that are brilliantly put together because of the strong sense of narrative of the amateur that moves his/her audience? Not possible? I don’t want to start a debate on a particular photographer, but I have read reactions to Nan Goldin’s photos, from those who find them weak on ability, while others find her personal narrative very compelling. On a bigger scale, isn’t this also a debate between ability and story?
“Having a story to tell and willingness to tell it, is nothing – a total zero… ability to do it is much more important and valuable…”
Absolutely, and I can understand Anthony RZs point of view the storyteller MUST be able to use his or her chosen medium to communicate the desired message. I personally am excited by what is termed multimedia although it’s not really something new; we have had collage, joiners, hand coloured photos etc. but the genres are specialised, niche. Will multimedia in the form of mixed DSLR video and still photography become niche? Probably too early to tell. With the new hardware that we as storytellers have at our fingertips (internet, iPad etc.) there has never been a better time to tell a story. There is going to be a flood of DSLR videos (already is) and much of it is going to leave something to be desired but we also must remember that these people are learning their craft: we are all, hopefully, still learning our craft.
Have you ever watched one of those TV shows that show todays stars in the early days of their career? They were learning their craft. Now they can move us to laughter or tears and it’s all because they had the opportunity to learn and grow and we should allow today’s photographers the same opportunity.
Besides, we don’t want to limit ourselves or box ourselves in here. The special, incredible, unique aspect of photography is that it can stop a moment in time and allow us to see and examine that moment – a moment that is unique and will never come again – and from this perspective Anthony is correct, but some people, will be able to make what we call multimedia sing.
Mike.
I think Anthony’s point that still photography is about the moment is a good one. It’s just that what we’re referring to as multimedia is not still photography and it’s not necessarily relevant to judge it as such. Multimedia is moving images. They are moving at 29.97 or some such frames per second in a timeline whether they appear to be moving or not. And this is nothing new. Moving images, or “movies” for short, have been around for a long time. As has adding motion to still images, which is now pretty much universally known as the “Ken Burns effect.” And when you add audio to still (looking) and moving images and put it into a journalistic framework, it’s known as a broadcast news story. None of this is the least bit new. What’s new is our ability to create these multimedia stories on a reasonable budget of both time and money.
So the challenge, imo, is to tell a story with moving images and audio in such a way that emphasizes what is great about still photography and subtly enhances it with the advantages of audio and motion. I haven’t seen very many of what I consider good examples. Hopefully, this dialogue will produce a lot of links to good ones. So far though, this one by Franco Pagetti of VII strikes me as a very good way to go. The story is sophisticated, the still images support the (nominal) story while telling important, sophisticated stories on their own, and the audio and video enhance, but do not overwhelm the stills.
The story or the ability to tell it? Nice koan. Kinda like the tree/forest thing.
Is there really something like a ‘bad’ story? A story not worth to be told?
For the photographer I think the ‘why’ is the most important thing, the motivation, what keeps you going on. For the viewer the ‘why’ is less important, the ‘how’ becomes more important, vital, to keep looking til the end.
Having the ability to tell a story is nothing, a total zero, without a compelling story to tell.
There is truth in both statements, no? What is one without the other? Perhaps I am missing the point and need more coffee but it seems silly to try to subordinate one to the other, to set up a hierarchy of what is more important, what is “better,” when both are important. However, I do think having a good story to tell, either your own or others, or just a solid concept, is more difficult than would seem on the face of it and at the same time, all concept does little for me, as does all ability with no strong thread. But then, no story CAN be good if it is just a feeling, or a color, or …? … ??? … On the road, need more coffee, confused … signing out.
… Ah, just thought, no one has brought up Soth’s latest work in this discussion …:))
Where is the F#$@ing coffee? Sorry about that. Out.
AKAKY???
I will be back…
YOUNG TOM..
do not be confused…and, yes, get more coffee…as i said in my statement there SHOULD NOT be a hierarchy…we all want a great story , brilliantly told…yet, with all of Hollywood’s billions and talent, and all the publishers out there, and all the talented writers and photographers, how often do we get that story that somehow has both? it most obviously is hard to come by otherwise we would surely see more of it…so, i do think it fair, since perfection is oftentimes elusive, to prioritize…and it is also THE discussion going on in our business right now…the importance of storytellers is in danger if you read most of the media press on themselves…my cry for authorship could go by the way to hear some tell it…anyway, you know my view…the storyteller most important….a good teller can have you in the palm of his/her hand with just the telling….a great story poorly told falls flatter than not so great story eloquently presented…however, sure does not hurt to have some grist for the mill…
cheers, david
yeap…the chicken or the egg…???
I will go with the chicken…
cause the chicken has the ability to make the egg…
…the egg is just the story
therefore…I will go with ~~~the ability to tell the story~~~
ohhh,well…where is the coffee???:)))
It has to be the story first. Any monkey can take a good picture. Very few people have something worth saying. There must also be something said for having a go. I’m playing with audio slide shows and most of them are shit but how else are you suppose to learn?
I think the exact opposite of this at the same time as writing this.
Between two nightshifts, maybe I need a coffee too, but I thought it was obvious that one needs a great story AND the ability to tell it to really shine, to emerge…
Pretty much the same with comments / communication: it’s not only about WHAT you say, it is also about HOW you say it…
This is a quality piece of Multimedia
http://www
Multimedia intrigues me and I found Kerry’s piece very good. It was a very moving piece that told a story that touched my heart and made me aware of my hard heartedness at my friend’s statement. That is what art is all about. When we get so entrenched in the need for everyone that does art to be the best in the field we miss out on the opportunity to learn what a piece is teaching us, and hearing the artist’s message. Plus, it is impossible to grow in a field unless the work is displayed to be viewed, dissected, embraced or spit out by the viewers.
Having done a very personal essay myself I know just how hard it is to convey “your” story in an essay; there will always be those that see it and go “HUH?”
Regarding the nature of photography vs multimedia, the use of photoshop to enhance vs the true capture, or as some like to view it keeping it pure: it is all emerging and the best will last and the ones that are not will fall by the wayside as happens in art throughout the centuries. The nature of humanity is to find a new, better, more exciting way to produce/view our art and there are many out there waiting to sell us just the right camera, video system, software to make that happen. My cousin who is an artist told me the other day, “The greatest compliment that can be paid to your art is when someone loves it enough to pay you their hard earned money for it.”
I won’t forget Kerry’s piece and most importantly I won’t forget the lesson she shed on my own personal life on this subject. That is what emerging is all about. I bet the next multimedia piece Kerry does will blow even NZ’s socks off; because she will have learned so much just from having the balls to put it out there. We can’t see the full nature of our work until it is seen through the eyes of the viewer.
no clue watsoeva ……….thinkin … thinkin ………. b bck in some time ……….
Unfortunately, I find the Tuvalu piece more exemplary of what can go wrong with multimedia. First, it’s pretty much a typical piece of broadcast journalism with mostly still images replacing video. But even if we accept that as a desirable form, I found many of the transitions to be irritating. The blinking, particularly the blinking between differently sized copies of the same image, hurts my eyes. In my own work, I’m finding I spend much more time and effort on those kinds of timing and transition issues than I do on putting together the story. It’s great that multimedia software gives us such control over presentation, but with that positive power comes great opportunity to do it badly as well, and in an infinite number of ways. It’s not like throwing a slideshow together and setting the length to five seconds and the transition to cross-dissolve. You gotta have pace.
“You gotta have pace.”
Nonononono.. you gott have CONTENT. If you have that then whatever..
Uff, ok, outta here, I’m a dinosaur looking at prints and books.. ;)
Harry wrote,
“This is a quality piece of Multimedia
http://www.vimeo.com/4997847”
The story is something that is of interest to me and the images were also to my personal
sensibilities but the the way they worked together, somehow, didn’t compel me to watch it to its
conclusion. As soon as the second round ‘typing’ text effect came up I left
That, perhaps, superficial way of viewing content is probably one of the problems that multimedia
and, I guess, storytelling in general faces now.
We’re bombarded with choice and if the hook isn’t set, quickly, them viewers leave.
Thank you for this thread David. And thank you to Kerry for telling a story that has the potential to heal a great deal of pain and suffering and potentially save lives. I know of very few things that are as ‘important and valuable’.
If we take some time to think about Anthony RZs comment, we can see that it basically denies the rights of people to tell their stories and, renders their suffering or experience (the story) to ‘a total zero’. This seems to me a way of thinking that could permit great injustice to continue in this world.
So Edgar Degas decided that being a painter and sculptor was not enough for him, he wanted to be a poet as well. So he tried to write a sonnet and quickly became frustrated at the slow pace of it. He complained to his friend, Stephane Mallarme, that he did not know why writing this sonnet should be so difficult; he had, after all, lots of ideas. Mallarme nodded and pointed out to his friend that having ideas was all well and good, but sonnets are not made from ideas, they are made from words. Having a story to tell is one thing; all combat veterans have a deeply interesting story to tell, but there are only a few Erich Maria Remarques or James Jones or Norman Mailers to tell them.
The ability to tell is a total zero without a story but a story cannot be heard without the ability to tell.
I like a lot of what Ed Kashi (www.edkashi.com ) has done in some of his multimedia pieces.
The “Sandwich Generation” ( http://www.mediastorm.com/publication/the-sandwich-generation ) worked well for me-good story,easy pace to the telling of the story, and not all ‘tricked out’ with effects.
Another one of his pieces, Iraqi Kurdistan Flipbook, from a couple of years ago really divided
opinion on a host of forums after release.
I, personally, disliked it for a long time feeling that his individual stills were much more
powerful and effective in telling the story but after hearing him defend the chosen visual style
I came to appreciate it. In essence, he said that he felt that the newer generation of visual
consumers ( not photographers or photog-groupies) neeeded to be entertained as part of the
process to engage them in a story that they might not otherwise consider.
I have heard a lot of stories by people unable to tell them. They were moving nonetheless…
“Having a story to tell and willingness to tell it, is nothing – a total zero”… without people ready to listen…
“You gotta have pace.” No kiddin’…!
Getting away for a minute from the slogan “what is most important for you as a viewer: the story or the ability to tell it ?” (which I think is a fairly absurd dichotomy, really) but trying to get to the heart of what this dialogue seems (?) to be really about, which I think is the relative importance of technical mastery and subtlety in mixing still images with motion and sound in multimedia presentations… (or am I wrong again?)…
In some ways audio slide shows are an already well-established form for story telling… (I’ve been doing slide shows with music and spoken commentary for some years now… aside from that, the genre I ‘m most familiar with are the audio slide shows that have appeared online on the New York Times over the last 5 or 6 years)… what seems to be new are three elements: 1. Because modern DSLRs allow motion photography, the temptation is strong to use it; 2. Because of advances in equipment and software, one person can now (theoretically) do (and is expected to do!) what used to require a whole crew of sound recorders, engineers, film editors, scriptwriters, etc., and 3. (As a corollary to 2), because of the Web and broadband, almost anybody can throw it up somewhere online, to be noticed or not. Now, ordinarily I’m not a reductionist, but I think because this topic is so huge, it makes sense to break it down into manageable segments just to think about it intelligently.
No doubt these three new elements change a lot of the landscape, even if they do not quite ‘change everything.’ It is very early days for this kind of multi-media storytelling. I’m sympathetic to the view ROBBY expressed that there are many ways to tell stories, and we should celebrate variety and experimentation and not look too soon for codification…
That said, the reality is that multimedia as a VIEWING EXPERIENCE is closer to cinema and TV news broadcasting than it is to traditional still photography, whether in gallery, book, or magazine context… and in considering the viewer (yes, the original question was, “which is more important to the viewer?”) we have to remember a more-than-hundred-year-legacy of evolved audience perceptions and tastes regarding motion pictures. And the quality and consistency of the visual images are only one element of that experience. Remember, most movies start with a script and words, not with visual images. Aside from the spoken word, sound in itself is almost as important, and certainly as complicated, an element. Musical sound tracks make that even more complex. And yes, pacing… (Oh, the stories I could tell about cultural and generational differences in pacing…!).
In my own feeble and primitive efforts, I often feel there is considerable hubris in believing that any one person (particularly me!) can master enough of this to actually produce something that anyone (other than a close relative or another photographer) would want to experience, when the average run-of-the-mill feature film has a roll of technical credits that takes five minutes to scroll across the screen.
On the other hand, since this seems to be where we are, let’s see what we can come up with… I suspect that length, pacing, number of images, types of sound, etc. will evolve as audience tastes and experience evolve, there won’t be any one formula that will work… nor should there be. The nature of the story, and the nature of the storyteller (and the new nature of the potential audience) should, hopefully, create whole new possibilities and suggest new directions. Back in the 1950s and early 60s, because of commercial radio and jukeboxes, it became ‘the law’ for pop songs to run for no more than 3 and half minutes… let’s hope the equivalent doesn’t become true for multimedia pieces.
In case the kernel message above is too subtle… what I’m trying to say is, our ideas of what works and what doesn’t will change as we try more, see more, experiment and fail, and occasionally get lucky. But try to keep in perspective just how daunting and ambitious a transition this represents for someone coming from a still photography background…
yup … prefer the ability than the story ………. would rather be known as a good wedding photographer than a lame conceptual one …………. the reason why i love russel peters …. the guy says the dumbest stuff ever but cracks me up in 30 secs …….the situation aint matter but the photograph does ……. Picasso was a kool painter …. paining isnt kool coz Picasso did it ……..
mtomalty, “he said that he felt that the newer generation of visual
consumers ( not photographers or photog-groupies) neeeded to be entertained as part of the
process to engage them in a story that they might not otherwise consider.”
this is a very good point; we here should remember that much work is meant to communicate with the general public rather that other photographers. I do wonder, however, if Ed has evidence to back up his statement that the newer generation “need” to be entertained etc. or if this is just a perception – rather like “the new generation only have a short attention span” and because of this perception we have to endure TV programs which cut to the next scene every one or two seconds and drive me crazy! I so hope he (Ed) is wrong.
DAHs interest, like many (i hope I’m not putting words in your mouth here David) is in no small measure due to photographers having to find a new business plan after the collapse of the traditional publishing model that used to hire photogs to produce work for newspapers and magazines. I think the new model will have to be that the photographer produces the completed work and then attempts to sell it. Obviously, if the works includes video the photog has a broader range of opportunities to sell. It doesn’t have to be multimedia: it can be stills in a magazine, video on TV and multimedia on the web. The thinking seems to be that the if you are multi-skilled you will be more able to survive the transition from the old publishing model.
Of course it’s not as easy as that. Still and video require a different mindset and you might miss a great still photo because you are thinking video and vice versa. The June issue of the relaunched and excellent British Journal of Photography was devoted to DSLR video and multimedia and I’d urge you to check out the magazines website. Incidentally, the magazine has gone monthly as it’s old business model of bringing news weekly was outdated. by the time the news was in print, we had all seen it via the internet.
Mike.
i´d say..
“Having a story to tell and willingness to tell it is nothing WITHOUT the ability to do it¨
the sentence can exist better without the negative.
to say that having a story and having motivation is a total zero – outshone by ability is wrong..
A.RZ is presenting a black and white, either / or.
all three.. an idea, motivation and the ability to show it.. stand shoulder to shoulder.
arguing which is the greater of ingredients is like asking if the pancake, lemon juice or sugar made my dinner more tasty..
as one dear friend of mine would have said, the statement is ¨splitting the hairs on a gnats arse¨.
development of photography and moving forward is certainly worth discussing.. and as with my pancake earlier tonight, the inclusion of all ingredients will push things forward better than homespun arrogance parading as wisdom.
reading back up the comments now and see people hitting the mark very well..
For me, in all art the first thing I look for or try to get a sense of is honesty. It doesn’t matter if the presentation has mistakes, in fact I find “mistakes” to make art a little more honest. Kerry’s story is extremely personal and honest, these are raw emotions, and you can’t deny that you don’t feel something looking through her images. If you don’t feel anything looking at an image of a mother crying for her lost son, you are obviously jaded, bitter, and disconnected from what makes this world such a fantastic place.
With that said, I don’t think it really matters if you have a great “ability” to tell a story. All of us are born with the ability to tell a story, we do it everyday. While some of us progress at “editing” our stories, to be a good story teller is to be, in my eyes, a good liar. There isn’t anything wrong with that, but people like me can always point it out when we look at art. We see that a person is over exaggerating particular points they are trying to make to give their work more impact. Beating you over the head with a message and insisting upon its own importance.
The story is always there in front of you, picking a story that you identify with is of pinnacle importance. Either you are passionate to tell the story, or you have a personal identification with the people or subject matter you are covering. The story is the most important thing, if we all waited for the “ability” to tell a story, I would not have seen so much amazing work in my lifetime. Yea its not perfect, yea the artist may have some “growing” to do, but you can’t fake honesty. It shines through in your work, and those that are attuned to it, see it right away.
yes very interesting question david…
the ability to tell the story correctly in relation to the “product” you want to put out there (slideshow, multimedia, print, magazine, book,…) is absolutely crucial. Which story you want to tell is in my eyes totally irrelevant. How you tell it, related to the medium, is the key.
A mismatch between “way of telling” and “medium” indeed will always stand out… all the pieces must find and also be of highest quality… and many forget that after “taking the picture” there is still a whole other mountain to climb which involves just as much energy and creativity and work…
Compare it with a feature film: a great director and a perfect DOP will be nothing without a genius screenplay/scenario… and vice versa…
great discussion…
.. to keep banging rocks with sticks or begin to try them on stretched pig skins ..
¨For me, in all art the first thing I look for or try to get a sense of is honesty.¨
said james rhodes
Harry. “Any monkey can take a good picture”…what utter horseshit. In fact very very few people can take a good picture. That statement is itself a big part of the problem ,as many many people believe they can, and do. And the ability to make a good picture(and know one) stands head and shoulders above everything else.
Without that ability you are always leaning on other elements to prop you up.
remember ‘you cannot polish a turd’.(not sure what the american translation is, but you get my drift).
I do not pretend to be a wordsmith, so I stay away from using words to paint with.
I do not pretend to be a musician, so I stay away from using song.
I AM a photographer; so I tell my little stories with a picture; and the stories ARE the pictures. And they are complete within themselves.
And yes…i do believe that EVERYONE has a story worth telling…but the ability,or the knowledge of which medium tells it best? …probly not in most cases.
go lots to say on this one (no shit ;)), but no time…about to take Dima to see a film (that’s another story)…will try to write something tonight…
b
actually,
¨“Having a story to tell, willingness to tell it and the ability to do it are all important and valuable…”
now..
where is my cup of tea?
I’m with John Gladdy on this.
HARRY…
i cannot tell if you are joking tongue in cheek or serious with your comment and your example..if you are serious, then i could not disagree with you more….do you not see the multi media pieces on Media Storm , VII and Magnum in Motion?…..hmmmmm, curious…any monkey can take a good picture? maybe that is true…strange that very few humans can….
cheers, david
HARRY…
i had not read the John Gladdy comment when i wrote mine to you..funny
John any one can take a good picture.(my 5 year old daughter does this every other month or so). To consistently take great pictures on demand is one of the highest forms of craft (art).
David, oh yes joking.
SIDNEY…
not quite the discussion i was trying to set up…multimedia was only a part of it….but in that sense i think you have a handle on it….however, the dichotomy which you think is absurd is at the very core of our disagreements about what photography IS or ISN’T for the last three years…i will never get you to look at a picture as something beyond a representation of an object or place or person….nor of a photographer whose voice just might change the very perceptual nature of the subject represented…
cheers, david
mtomalty, thank you so much for posting the link to Ed Kashi and Julie Winokur’s “The Sandwich Generation.” I cannot imagine a more effective example of blending audio, motion and still photos to tell a story, an important although everyday kind of story. Of course, the fact that it was co-created by a professional filmmaker and photographer who were telling their own story places it head and shoulders over the multimedia work of those of us who are just learning to add audio and video to our work as still photographers.
I personally believe that multimedia is here to stay and that photojournalists, especially those we would characterize as emerging, would do well to develop the techniques needed to add audio and video to their more traditional expertise with still photography. In recent years Detroit’s local newspaper, the Detroit Free Press, has made a name for itself because of its talented videographers and their work.
As a still photographer myself, I thought I would be getting into multimedia. That is until I discovered through trial and mostly error how physically demanding it is to accomplish. For a gal whose hands have trouble even holding my camera and successfully clicking the shutter release button every time I want, dealing with the special needs of video is a bit over the top. But that’s OK, I’m loving the quality of images I get with my new Canon 7D and wouldn’t trade it for anything.
Regarding the story and how it is told, technique — be it still photos or multimedia — is merely a tool: the story is the thing. But that story must be told in a way that respects its integrity, pushes it beyond the commonplace, and engages the viewer on a gut level. And that takes a photographer who is one with the story he/she is telling. Even if the photographer chooses to present the story from a detached point of view, she/he must be engaged with it on a deep level. Superficiality is not the same as conscious detachment. You’ve got to be willing to dig in and get your feet wet, muddy actually. You’ve got to be changed more than your viewers.
For me, that’s why Kerry Payne’s essay works. She’s at the heart of it and it shows. This is her story and it is not easy to tell. That’s its power. As she pursues this work — as I hope she will — it will grow and deepen because she will grow and deepen into it. And technically it will mature as her photographic skills mature. This story must be told and Kerry is the one to tell it. And she will.
Patricia
P.S. Anthony R.Z. may have had an important point to make but I found his way of expressing himself to be insensitive and unnecessarily harsh. How we express ourselves here on Burn is every bit as important as how we tell a story with our camera.
John you sort of have the (or at least my) problem down. I can sort tell a story with photos. Now I’m trying to add sound which I have no idea about. A lot of the multi media I’ve been seeing looks like people like me having ago with something new. It’s not great, but in a few years time it might be. I should really find a sound man and a film guy to do it right but the last thing in the world I want to be is a director producer.
I think if the story is good the people (the public not professionals) will let other things slides.
MIKE R…
i was not really thinking in terms of a new business plan for the future, although i suppose by now it is pretty obvious that many will indeed have to make this adjustment…most of the changes actually give us opportunities way beyond anything in the old model which was truly restrictive in terms of storytelling…only a very small part of the experience could be told because of space limitations…what i am talking about is the “way” a story is told in terms of visual acuity , not so much in tech expertise…it will be interesting to see which model works out in the long run…will the picture viewing public want to buy the “story” told by almost anyone because the content is just so damned important or will the quality and finesse of the teller be so compelling that the viewer/public will buy the “style” instead of the “road map” …my gut tells me style will win out, it always has, but there may be a long long road and a lot of bad examples of storytelling before the dust settles and the new young masters are able to rise from the abyss…
cheers, david
Hmmm.. I was in the wrong room..
panos skoulidas
July 20, 2010 at 4:38 pm
All stories are cool if presented the “right” way…
Harry. yes of course I see your point now. the pictures my parents took of me and my brothers when we were young make me smile, and remember..and also feel sad. And so are good. The pictures that children make in innocence and joy, also are good. The magic there is in our connection to the subject, and the memory vault it unlocks….Making a universal key with your picture,for everyones vault, now…thats a rare thing indeed.
Patricia. We are not all given to spiritual dispositions, nor are we all gifted at diplomacy, and I, for one find blunt honesty far more palatable than sugared platitudes.
Read Anthony’s other comments on essays etc and you will see that he is not interested in the essays, he states that the only photography that takes the traditional course should be called photography. References to his statement are a dud in this “ability to tell…” context.
Multimedia is a non term that was created to describe anything that didn’t have it’s own category/box to live in. It is the junkyard of the arts.
In the end you are either doing or just jaw grinding about communication.
Ok guys… first of all, Burn is not a place for condolences or sharing personal life problems, or losses… this is the place where photographers share their successful work… at least I come here for this… that’s why my initial comment on the recent essay wasn’t about sharing the pain with Kerry, but rather my impression of the photo project that has been published on a highly respectable online photography magazine…
Not even everybody is able to tell stories properly and coherently to friends at the table with beer… OK, this would be quite easy for the most because it isn’t art, and for the most part doesn’t require any talent or skill, just the ability to speak… would be much more challenging to do the same in public or on TV… Here we are telling and reading stories on two dimensional surface, no words, no nothing… I am talking about photography here, not the video, not the writing or music… they could complement each other in multimedia, but not compensate for each other… OK, just an image story on a peace of flat paper/screen – it’s almost impossible… well, it’s possible but just for some and not right away… Now, the working photographer has to forget for a while about the sensitivity, romantic excitment, three dimensional impressions… because these are your enemies. Street photography, photojournalism requires very high but different concentration, that’s why when you see well seasoned photographers like Bresson or Harvey working, they are basically dancing in a trance around the subject and the place… How to make an image that would really tell a story beyond the proper composition, form, color, line, shape???… man, nobody can teach you this… it’s still a mystery for the most part… there has to be the story first, of course… but stories are everywhere, strong stories are somewhere… few find them, even fewer can tell them by using the medium of photography…
Often I go into a project with little or no idea what story I will ultimately tell, but with total confidence that the situation will be rife with great stories and all I have to do is recognize them. But I realize that’s just a useful trick I play on myself. Stories do not exist independently of our animal awareness. Our brains are wired to discern them from the stimulus overload provided by our senses. It’s how we arrange our world and communicate with others.
Clearly, some people are better at discerning stories than others and a small subset of that group excels at communicating the stories they discern to others. It’s all — all — about the skill of the storyteller, without whom there is no such thing as a story. And I think David AH’s last point is one of the key things that separates the great storytellers from the masses — the ability to change the very perceptual nature of the subject represented.
So in this discussion, I’m much more interested in the mechanics of telling a good, still photography based story with the multimedia tools available. And I’m not so sure how far one can get from the traditional slideshow without it becoming something else altogether. The MediaStorm story about caring for the aging parent that mtomalty linked to above is another example. The way I see it, that is just a traditional broadcast news piece, or at least news magazine. The still photography is entirely lost in all the AV.
So how to do it? Is it even possible? I know John Gladdy is right for John Gladdy, but he may just be right with a capital R. Well, not quite. I’ll always love well-put together sequences of images with appropriate soundtracks, but I’m not sure how much further we can go technically without doing something that’s not really still photography. But I do see a few multi-media innovations that can work. For example, innovations that allow us to better pace our stories (sorry Eva, but pacing matters, always has, always will). And then there’s always room to discern/tell more sophisticated stories, or to present them in a more sophisticated manner. I’m pretty sure that when all the technical mumbo jumbo is said or done, that will be the ticket. Same as it ever was.
Dear DAVID
“…not quite the discussion i was trying to set up…”
Not surprised to hear you say this!… chronic problem of mine, isn’t it, whether we’re talking apples and oranges, or kumquats and kiwis..??!! However, this time I really misunderstood… thought the larger question was to be considered in the context of multimedia in this particualr case.
“…i will never get you to look at a picture as something beyond a representation of an object or place or person….nor of a photographer whose voice just might change the very perceptual nature of the subject represented…” Oh, David, you greatly underestimate the impact and influence you have had on me over the last few years! That particular message has gotten through again and again.. don’t want to distract this particular thread by going into all the gory details, but despite what you may think my position and understanding are, you have expanded my horizons considerably.
“…the dichotomy which you think is absurd is at the very core of our disagreements about what photography IS or ISN’T…”
OK, I apologize, ‘absurd’ was a very poor choice of words and I can understand now that you may feel affronted by it… believe it or not, that was not my intention… maybe ‘unresolvable’ would be better? At least, to me, unresolvable as an abstract discussion without getting down to cases and details… it would very much depend on the story, and the storyteller…
Forgive me if I state that I don’t think we really disagree about “what photography IS” so much… but we certainly have different spectra of taste. I forgave you for this long ago… will you forgive me?
(And I continue to applaud your enormous efforts on behalf of BURN and the larger photographic community, ‘natch).
Isn’t the construction of a good multimedia piece virtually the same as a “standard” photo story?
Is the story one of interest to others?
Can the photos stand on their own without text (in this case audio)?
Can the text (audio) stand on it’s own without the images?
Is there something new?
Is it presented in a way that holds the viewers’ attention?
While I may not care for this piece, I cannot agree with the assessment that Anthony makes “nothing but a mess and nonsense without any impact”. I am not a writer. I have no illusions about that. But even those among us who are writers, even people like Bob who can spit out a captivating paragraph as easily as I breathe, cannot capture the subtle nuances, the emotions or the spirit the same as a person telling their own stories.
As I sit here and look/listen to the essay again, I find myself asking if this essay covers the five baseline questions outlined above. Is the story of interest to others? Absolutely. Can the photos stand on their own? Some can. There was some repetitiveness in the images and some stronger compositions would help. Can the audio stand on it’s own? Probably. Is there something new? I didn’t think so. That’s not all that damning. At this point, what really is new anyway? Did it hold my attention? I can’t say that it did. One part melted into another. Perhaps if it was a more in depth portrayal of one set of survivors…I don’t know.
Although this story didn’t work for me, there are plenty that do.
Anthony, isn’t it possible to venture into new mediums losing sight of the storytelling glory of old-school photography?
“…a great story , brilliantly told…” is of course the goal…
If I had to choose one over the other though, the story would be it.
A great, meaningful, touching story badly told will stick with me longer than a non story brilliantly, amazingly, exquisitely told…
That said, my conscious efforts for the (relatively) longest time have been to learn the craft part of our medium, in order to (hopefully) be ready to brilliantly tell the great story when time comes…
Peace…
“The Nude” published by Pantheon Photo Library & translated into English in 1986, introduction (quoted below) by Bernard Noel:
“Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Photography–now well past the middle of its second century–should have taught us that long ago, but, under the force of an even older illusion, we still confuse object and subject. The subject is always the photographer, the photographer’s vision of an object. This suffices to invert the position of the image, which can no longer be a simple view once one perceives a repetition ad infinitum in the act of taking it–an act that the photo alternately hides and reveals in a tremor that contains the passage of time, the circulation of sense and the beginning of thought.”
When the photographer takes the photos (after perceiving a story in the act of taking them) and strings them together in a sequence, in their mind at least they told a story. Someone either buys it or doesn’t and a magazine/newspaper/blog either publishes it or doesn’t, depending upon the eye of the viewer. It is out of the photographer’s hands once they release it to either of these entities. And the publishers and viewers of the published work will see the story through their own personal filters. As is evidenced daily on this blog. These filters consist of skills, experience, knowledge and personal life experience. As with all art there are those that like it and those that don’t but hopefully in the discourse we all come away with something and the published artist grows.
And on another lighter and more fun note, want to come to Maui and check out a photo festival? I have not attended this yet (only second year) but think I will since I am here this year. Anyone up for a trip to Maui?
http://www.mauiphotofestival.com/
Photographers here are concerned about photographs and making money out of their chosen careers ………………………………….storytellers tell stories and their concern is the story not the individual telling the story.
“Ok guys… first of all, Burn is not a place for condolences or sharing personal life problems, or losses… this is the place where photographers share their successful work” -Anthony NZ
Pull you head out of your ass Anthony, look at the right hand column of this page, you see that top sentence ? ” burn is an evolving journal
for emerging photographers. ”
Keyword is emerging in that sentence is emerging, dipshit.
Let me ask you, do you have any work online that we can look at ? Where are you images ? As the old saying goes, those that can…do, those who can’t….criticize…
Sorry for the inappropriate language and name calling DAH, this is why I rarely comment on anything, because I can’t stand the circle jerk of what is and isn’t good photography.
mw time to stop hiding and confront what you wrote in the past……………….. the sripes are still there, no spots are appearing
DAVID,
Speaking directly to the point I think you are making:
“what i am talking about is the “way” a story is told in terms of visual acuity , not so much in tech expertise…it will be interesting to see which model works out in the long run…will the picture viewing public want to buy the “story” told by almost anyone because the content is just so damned important or will the quality and finesse of the teller be so compelling that the viewer/public will buy the “style” instead of the “road map” …my gut tells me style will win out, it always has, but there may be a long long road and a lot of bad examples of storytelling before the dust settles and the new young masters are able to rise from the abyss…
My thought here is that at least in the near and medium term, as (if?) multimedia becomes a widespread or dominant channel for storytelling, then the RELATIVE importance of sophisticated ‘visual acuity’ is likely to be diminished in relation to the increasing importance of sound, words, music, editing, pacing, and so-called ‘technical’ (they’re all technical) production values working together… in other words, as long as the visuals are “OK”, the seemliness and seamlessness of the total package… words, sound, music, pacing, still images, video.. working together… will be more important to most viewers than whether the visual acuity in particular is at a higher level… we might wish otherwise, but I think that is likely to be the case.
OOPS! Should have closed the quotation marks on the first paragraph, which is Harvey’s and not mine…
And just to add this line: …while the storyteller’s ability will still be crucial, it will be more the ability to put images, words, and sounds together well and in interesting and original ways that is important, and the quality of the individual still photographs may be less important, relatively, in terms of the whole package (so long as they meet an ‘acceptable standard’, of course, which will be a moving target, just as it has been).
Imants, I have no idea what you are talking about. Lordy knows I write all kinds of shite. Regarding the nickname change, I’m only hiding, and then only a little bit, from Google. There are plenty here who don’t use their full name, probably for similar reasons. Ask EMCD. You all are welcome to keep calling me Michael, or Michael Webster if you prefer. I’m not hiding from you.
So what do you think about that Franco Pagetti multimedia piece I think is so great? I know I come at these things more from a literary perspective whereas you see things more from the art world, but I see the difference in storytelling sophistication between that kind of approach and the more common broadcast news magazine style like the difference between an Italo Calvino novel and page 14b in the New York Times.
im always going to be finicky coz im a woman.
if there is a good joke to be told and you are not delivering the punchline, well, no one would get it.
so a good story has to be there but if you dont know what youre doing and cannot see the difference between an f stop and the bus stop, the story wont hold its value.
so id say both: good story and know how
mw we know when and why the change was made……………. you are hiding from the Michael Webster posts.
Imants, not true. I don’t hide from the things I write, I just like a degree of separation when it comes to things written about me. Until using my full name on Burn, I had always stayed one small step removed from easy identification. It’s because of the nature of the personal attacks that are all too commonly a part of online interaction. I don’t mind attacks on my ideas or my work, enjoy them actually, but I prefer not to have a Google search come up with with attacks, very unfair attacks, on my integrity, particularly by prominent people in my field. Believe me, I’m quite used to dealing with the embarrassment that all too often results from my poor writing skills and consider it akin to cod liver oil or some other bitter medicine. Unpleasant but ultimately healthy.
But enough about me. Why do you keep evading the multimedia question I’ve raised concerning higher arts vs. broadcast journalism? What do you think about Pagetti’s approach? I’d use you as an example too, had I bookmarked your little seven minute project from awhile back. I thought that was very skillfully done.
Pagetti approach……..the images of the soldiers are unhurried,safe and composed. The images of the locals feel hurried and lack connection.
Anthony, I dont expect you to embrace this perspective because you seem so determined to have work and to view work only in the way you want it and only in the way you want to view it. None-the-less, even as Kerry’s “multimedia” (I really dont like that term at all) piece was an imperfect work, I will hazard a guess that (and David is certainly capable to respond to this himself) Mr. Alan Harvey found in it – as I think many other viewers have as well – something that touched a human chord, a note, a common note; one that Kerry experienced and responded to in her own work and thought enough to make something of to share.
There is something in the directness and in the honesty of Kerry’s work that – I believe – overcomes and transcends the imperfections of the perfectly crafted story or a tightly composed frame or the “moment” that you seem to insist photography, GOOD photography, be about. I dont need to love it all to love it. How can any of us live with an ethic which leaves no room for imperfection? I am perfectly bored with perfection and would welcome a sloppy excellence anytime.
The history of photography – and art – is rife with work that is imperfect, anti-moment, and at the same time evocative, provocative, subtle, excellent and human.
The wonderful thing about this site is that your dogmatic (and somewhat insensitively expressed) view is welcomed and even championed (as witnessed in this specially created dialog); how boring not to be able to step partly outside ourselves and see merit and value where we thought there might be none – to learn from it even.
“You don’t “take” pictures, you make pictures; you make them well and use them to communicate, to help the people and the situation. Many times the suffering people in the Sahel would see me working and they would ask me to come and photograph them or a loved one as a way of helping to solve the problem. In time they come to your camera like they would come to a microphone, they come to speak through your lens.” –– Sebastiao Salgado
For me it is the ability to tell a story that holds the greatest worth. Because occasionally as a photographer/storyteller you can, as Sebastiao puts it “help the people and the situation”
“what is most important for you as a viewer: the story or the ability to tell it ?”
This is something I struggle with. As photographers, we are drawn to strong images, wheras I find non-photographers will respond much more to content.
To tell the story, do we concentrate on covering the bases, capturing the important information and moments, even if the composition or lighting is not great, or do we try to make the most appealing/creative/clever images within the situation, with hard information a secondary concern? Certainly the answer is a firm “it depends”.
Does a set of beautifully composed, very artistic images that don’t really contain much information tell a story better than a set of straighforward and very informative photographs. Depends on the story. Depends on accompanying text, or lack of it. Depends wether it is in a mass magazine, trying to snag readers attention, or in a powerpoint presentation being presented to a captive audience in a dark room.
Ability to recognise and tell the story I believe is paramount, whatever the approach.
there are not “more important” or “less” stories…
The Death of a soldier can can have as much impact visually as the Birth of a baby…
Take war for example : we have Nachtwey on the upper side and Zoriah on the down side..
in the meantime “War” remains the same
or think of white rappers..Eminem up, Vanilla Ice down…and on & on…
What is more important, the story or the ability to tell it?
If you can’t tell it there isn’t much of a story so I say the ability to tell it.
The story is the seed that when planted, watered, nurtured grows up to be a tall tale. For so many years, more people than i can count have told me to stop trying to express myself visually and for heaven’s sake, WRITE! I do not write because i have nothing to say. No story. No amount of eloquence, wordsmithing and creative word play is going to matter without the story. Likewise with photography. The best camera, the skills, the MFA, the connections, the money to ship off to some exotic locale to shoot someone else’s reality is going to guarantee you the story. i am so visually impressionable that i will forgive a multitude of technical and artistic sins for a good story.
Anthony:
“Now, the working photographer has to forget for a while about the sensitivity, romantic excitment, three dimensional impressions… because these are your enemies. Street photography, photojournalism requires very high but different concentration”
Ok, i’m not HCB or DAH (far from it) but this i know something about. I’ve been shooting the street for about gosh, 6 years now It’s one of two projects that i invest enormous amounts of time and energy to. And doing it the old-fashioned way. Fully manual, using primarily one camera, one lens with film and mainly from the hip. I don’t turn into a zombie without sensitivity, romantic excitement or three dimensional impressions when i’m out there. I might be in a sort of trance, forget about food, water, rest and time. But if i forgot the rest of the mix you mention, i would not, could not possibly see my stories, let alone tell them.
Best
Kathleen
“(sorry Eva, but pacing matters, always has, always will)”
Michael, first you gotta have something to pace.. I’m with John Gladdy all the way here..
Kathleen, if Anthony RZ means to leave out all that during the edit of the work, then I agree with him, being emotionally involved makes editing much harder.
emotional attachment is like propaganda…….. very useful when creating a story.
Editing is taking away, I for one prefer to create
Eva, Imants
Interesting perspectives from both of you. So, a question. When looking through images to use, do you have an emotional, intellectual, subjective, objective, visceral reaction to the “rightness” of one particular photo/image over another? What tells you, “THIS ONE!!!” One approach or the other or all of the above?
Eva, what i took away from what Anthony said is that these elements are the enemy of a working photographer (as opposed to a photographer at play? hmmm, whatever) while he/she is shooting which is why he mentioned HCB (RIP) and DAH being in a trance while they’re working. Which you know, it’s crazy to think of that trance being devoid of emotional, passionate and excited connection to their subject matter. Creating art is a mind/mood altering experience. That’s where the trance comes from for heaven’s sake. That’s why artists make art and photographers make photos, unless they’re like shooting baby pictures at Sears and, who knows, maybe even then…
Kathleen, that’s why I wrote ‘during the edit of the work’.. and I’m pretty sure even Imants does some sort of editing.. besides that, I don’t consider him a straight photographer, but a visual artist..
Shooting something so close to yourelf like what Kerry has done, is doing, makes it very hard to detach the emotions from the pictures themselves, and it’s more likely that weaker pictures slip into the body of work than if it was somebody else editing, or if you were less attached. And some of the viewers probably are more forgiving if it happens than others, because of the emotions (their own, empathy towards the photographer, etc.) involved.
unless they’re like shooting baby pictures at Sears and, who knows,
——————————————————————-
I personally love to stare at photos shot in Sears or at the local mall..i dont know why…but i do love them..i find them real plus is something genuine about them..:)
James Rhodes:
I found your work with the Rohingya Refugees to be seriously some of the most beautiful, elegant photography that i have ever seen. I am looking at it all again right this moment. Your eye is so gentle, careful, respectful, dare i say, loving? Your colors like jewels. Not a single contrivance..these gentle, moving, gorgeous little photographs..oh my.. thank you for letting me find this gallery tonight.
Best, truly
Kathleen
Panos
yes, agreed..i love to look at sports pictures in school hallways too for the same reason..
As far as Kerry’s essay is concerned, I think the importance of the content is more important to me as a viewer than her competency as a photographer; actually, I think we forget sometimes that an important character for this sort of photography is for an individual to be able to gain the trust, and be intimate enough with those people to allow them to open up.
But when I think of Kate Stones essay, it was it’s style and execution that worked for me conjuring up impressions in my imagination, that were activated by the images themselves, devoid of preconception as far as content went, as I never read the essay’s before I view them. The strength of Kerry’s essay is that we are made aware that they are real people and its that connection for me that made it work; the truthfulness in its content.
I know its a bit of a post modern view but..”It all depends”
evolutionary……..if they can abide by the concept and the other images/text can cope it is in…….. until the image gets a straight eviction. But I just put books together for the last 2 odd years plus quirky slide shows where the images are transitory.
com’on keep up we are beyond post modernism ………
I think the obvious: both are important. Fifty-fifty. Story and willingness without ability goes nowhere, and the opposite is also true.
There are sometimes stories with very little content (except to its author, of course) very beautifully executed. Well, I think they will be nowhere to be found some years down the line, however controversial they might seem now. The same rules that have applied to art for centuries still apply in the Internet era: time will tell whether your much-appreciated (and even paid) artwork becomes a classic, but all classics in history have the precise mix of form and content, and excel in both.
By the way, I also think that not, it does not depend. Photography continues to have rules of composition, exposure, etc., even though they might evolve with the times just as people’s tastes evolve. Same with literature, sculpture, journalism, etc. When the point is not communication but ‘breaking the rules’ and innovation just for the sake of it, then the only way is suicide, as it has happened to painting.
Eva
Sorry, just saw your post..
of course Imants edits or else he’d have a big mess on his hands instead of the highly meditative flow in his work that he achieves (sorry Imants if i my take is all wrong..it’s what i see in your work)..whatever word he wants to use to define his selection process, he’s still choosing this versus that. And it makes no difference to me if you are editing photos and he is editing found image material. You still have to make these vital choices. So i was curious as to what kicks in when you just know a photo is right.
With regard to Kerry’s work. I think the fact that this was almost autobiographical for her, regardless of the other subjects portrayed, means that the content is going to be more raw and unpolished than if she was presenting an essay on the consequences of global warming on the Inuits. The roughness around the edges actually works to enhance Kerry’s essay whereas it might detract from another. There is no way she could have edited with surgical precision considering her emotional connection and no way she could have done the essay without the emotional connection. Actually i very much liked her photographs.
Regardless, i agree with you that emotional attachment to ones photographs makes it difficult to edit, but Anthony was speaking of the shooting process which is what i was addressing.
Best
Kathleen
Imants
ahh..in Spanish we call some relationships, “pasajeros”..where two people are passengers for a time. I like that approach to your work then. Some stays, some stays a long time, some stays possibly forever..like water, perhaps..some gathers in eddies, whirling and twirling in the same place for a great while, some spills over and over itself in a vicious current, some flows by, some drifts by and some sits and dries in a puddle in the sun, rising into the air to come down as rain once again somewhere else.
*smile*
off the wall, i am, no doubt.
Ok, i have gone off-subject long enough..it’s 2 am, time to sleep..
goodnight all
k/
“pasajeros” I like that…….
Imants
me too…
zzzz
Imants, with the Pagetti piece, or your multimedia work for that matter, I am not talking about the content of the photos, but the structure of the story (good observations though). My concern in this discussion is how multimedia techniques can be used to tell stories that feature still images. How to create a better slideshow, in short. So part of that, the nuts and bolts so to speak, means working with pacing, transitions, zooms and pans — that sort of thing, all of which are at the service of the story. And part of that, the part we are more concerned with here, is the story itself. I don’t mean to denigrate the traditional broadcast journalism, 60 minutes style model. I recognize that there will, and should, always be a place for that. It’s just that possibilities exist to tell stories in other, more sophisticated ways. In the Pagetti example, the story is obviously about the American military occupation of Afghanistan, but it is structured around the idea of a photographer’s desire to be invisible. That kind of misdirection adds a dramatic tension that is much less likely to exist in straightforward, earnest type journalism. It’s the difference between writing and transcription, between images from a surveillance camera vs. those from an accomplished photographer. Same thing with your work. Wish I’d bookmarked it.
Unfortunately, I don’t spend as much time looking at other people’s work as I probably should, so I am no doubt unaware of some vast library of great multimedia work. Please, anybody, provide some links to what you think is good. Although I’m working on several things at the moment, I am a ways (long or short? Don’t know yet) from figuring it out myself. Mastering the necessary software (and audio) skills is challenging. Understanding what to do with them much more so.
DAH “what i am talking about is the “way” a story is told in terms of visual acuity , not so much in tech expertise…it will be interesting to see which model works out in the long run…will the picture viewing public want to buy the “story” told by almost anyone because the content is just so damned important or will the quality and finesse of the teller be so compelling that the viewer/public will buy the “style” instead of the “road map” “.
I’m still not sure what you mean by visual acuity. I suppose yes, if a compelling story is being told with less-than-perfect tech expertise then people are going watch despite any technical flaws. So content is king.
However, you talk about will the viewing public BUY such work: well, will they have an opportunity to buy ?Or will the old published model, where magazines etc. decided what to print and we, the public, read/saw the results with no real choice, be replaced by an Internet equivalent? If it is, and they have to satisfy advertisers, then technical quality will be a requirement.
Could you also be more specific about what you want to discuss here? I know that the points raised by Anthony prompted your post here but I presume you want to discuss more than “content or quality of result”.
Not being awkward here David, just want to understand fully.
Mike.
preparing a long response….(omg) ;))…
but, wanted to quick jump in and provide one link for now (more than one will spam my comment) to a traditional multimedia piece that works great….using still photography….
by the way, it is a magnificent book as well…
danny wilcox frazier’s DRIFTLESS
MANDATORY viewing for documentary lovers…
http://www.mediastorm.com/publication/driftless-stories-from-iowa
more tonight (alot more :))
b
DAH, isn’t ‘style’ what makes of content THE story, instead of just having a bunch of pictures?
John Vink wrote: “Having a story to tell and willingness to tell it, is nothing – a total zero”… without people ready to listen…” Yes. I guess we have to find a way to MAKE people listen as well? So we have:
1) A Story
2) The Ability to Tell
3) The ‘Nouse and Nohow’ to Break it to the Whole World
John Gladdy: Sugared platitudes get my goat too, as do sycophants. Wish there was a way to filter all of that out along with all the endless rambling on unrelated matter.
I agree with Bob (omg). This IS excellent as a straight doc. piece – informative, educational, beautifully structured, seamlessly woven and deeply touching and a beautiful end. Nice. Thanks.
http://www.mediastorm.com/publication/driftless-stories-from-iowa
The other thing, besides story, that I like about the Pagetti piece is that it’s technically doable by one person — simple, mood setting video, a soundtrack one can create with Garageband, a simple voiceover, supporting a few very high quality still photos. I agree that Driftless is very well done, but it took somewhere in the neighborhood of 13 people to create it.
‘Driftless’ is first of all great photography, it would be so even without all the whistles and bells of video, slideshows and so on, just figure to look at the photographs, either prints or a book, and listen to the voices or reading the text. So once you have that, great photography, you can take it wherever.
Simple, everyday stories, made in the backyard, seen through an eye that has the gift of seeing.
mw most of the slide shows etc I have made no longer exist, I just delete them
Imants/mw: Please could you put up a link to the Pagetti piece you are referring to. Thanks.
http://magazine.viiphoto.com/feature/show/270
Yes. That really works, it has great strength. I feel I’m able to take my time, make my own connections, I don’t feel like it’s staged or too manipulated or overdone. It’s about photography and putting you there.
It’s real and it has an impact.It assumes the viewer is intelligent and thinking.
I love the simplicity.
Too much chatter and video mixed with stills just lessens it for me, I feel it’s too easy for the message to get lost in the busy-ness.
I hope I’m not too late to this party — just back in NY and finally online again.
I am immensely grateful to everybody who has taken the time to view this essay and share with me your feelings about it. I will address those more specifically in the Left Behind thread after I’ve re-read and considered all comments one more time.
David, I’m so pleased you started this dialog. The energy flowing from the discussion here gets right to the heart of all that is special about Burn Magazine and why it is such a valuable resource for the photographic community.
Is story or the ability to tell it well more important? In my own experience as a new entrant into the photo world, I was shooting around the edges of this subject, getting nowhere, really, until DAH gave me the push I needed to dive right into it. His advice at the time, ‘you gotta have something to say’… well, I had something to say and I am grateful to him for helping me make the leap from shooting subway musicians to something that can, and will, make a difference.
Can the photography improve? Yes. Can the construction of the essay be more polished? Yes. Does this essay in its current format make an impact on the people it is targeting? Yes. That much I know from the heartfelt comments I’ve received from so many who’ve been touched by suicide and have viewed it in all it’s rough-around-the-edges glory.
So for me, the story leads, and the way it is told will continue to improve with time and experience.
I’m not so sure I wanted to tell this story, but it needed to be told and I didn’t want to wait until it was perfect – whatever that might look like. My purpose was and is to raise awareness of this issue, to get people talking about suicide and hopefully to reduce the stigma and collateral damage it leaves behind year after year.
To that end, I am hungry to learn how to do justice to the courageous people who are willing to open their hearts and share their stories with us. This dialog and the essay feedback (the good, the bad and the ugly) is fuel for my fire as I continue my work on this project and to grow as a photographer.
Thank you.
Kerry
p.s. David, no, I was not moved to tears by Anthony RZ’s comments – although I do fully expect him to buy the first round should we ever meet in real life. ;-)
As to question of priorities, the story or the ability to tell it, my personal answer would nearly always be the ability to translate the story with the aforementioned visual acuity. My exception is along the lines of the mission of WITNESS and the dissemination of visual media by civilians (Civi that’s you!) against human rights abuses, or of Community Video Units, when the story must take absolute precedence, but certainly in these instances I am looking for information alone and the lack of authorship is ‘forgiven.’
Apples and oranges though, that way. So using the food metaphor, I think the larger question of what the public wants can’t be reduced to one answer; to me it’s the same scenario as exists with food, sustenance. There are plenty, most, who are satisfied with filling their hunger with whatever is in front of them without regard to quality or actual value, either because they have not been exposed to the other options, or because it actually suits their palate, or because they haven’t the means to acquire anything else. And there are others who wish to consume not only that which is wholesome, but that which was prepared and presented with a level of artistry. The latter group will sometimes be put in a position to take in lesser foods / (any given ill presented story as a method of sustenance), but they will always be aware of the lack they are experiencing and will most likely lament it. Then there are those who would rather go hungry than subject themselves to what is on the menu at the rest stop.
Kerry – welcome home! funny we both used the hungry analogy, simultaneous posting :)
Kerry
DAH isn´t here to say it right at this moment, so let me do it for him..you´re a class act!
best
Kathleen
Kerry,
My dearest and darling… despite my honest opinion about this particular essay, now I have a feeling that you are very close to me… You are a really strong and great person… the way you react to the criticism shows you have a great potential to grow as an artist… we all need cold showers from time to time even if they aren’t always entirely fair… Yes, Kerry, I would very much like to meet with you in person, especially after I looked at your picture:))… I have something as a present to you… I am going to travel around the world, so either New York or Australia are very likely places for us to meet… I am too shy to write you a private message though:)… with love and respect…
emcd, very well thought and precise metaphor…
now there’s a burn moment! (re: anthony’s message to kerry)
****************************
(wish we could have Marshall McLuhan at our roundtable discussion, the one who coined the phrase ‘the medium is the message’ – meaning “that the form of a medium embeds itself in the message, creating a symbiotic relationship by which the medium influences how the message is perceived. The phrase was introduced in his most widely known book, Understanding Media: The Extensions of Man, published in 1964.[1] McLuhan proposes that a medium itself, not the content it carries, should be the focus of study. He said that a medium affects the society in which it plays a role not only by the content delivered over the medium, but also by the characteristics of the medium itself.” http://mitpress.mit.edu/catalog/item/default.asp?ttype=2&tid=4693
a youtube version of his thinking: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3ApZGGY9RU
“There is no agony like bearing an untold story inside of you.”
—Maya Angelou
YOU Photographers…you are blessed and cursed…
…and yeap…some of you be prepared to buy …many rounds…
oime…I am the proudest civilian
Universe Thank you…what have I done to deserve that ???
BURN is the place to be…
Go out BURNIANS…if you can’t do it…then who…
P.S Since I am in a remote area (I am drinking ouzo with ANTHONYRZ-big heart…and I can’t read many of the comments…don’t tell me that I have missed BOBBYB…:)))
Anthony RZ, Kerry
awwwwwwwww….:))
k-
hhhhmmm the story or the ability to tell it?
both do, and must have their place, both are interwoven. but what we have to accept is that that place is rapidly changing. what’s in the story? does it have to be about the other, can an individual step into a situation/event/culture/life/experience that they would normally not be a part of and tell the story of those who are really living it? for me NO, that false objectivity, to which many have and many still are aspiring to has fallen by the wayside. photography, for me, is about experience, the experience of whom? the photographer, and only the photographer. that is the only reality photography shows. that is the only subject or story that a photographer can author.
how the story is told has slowly changed since photography’s creation, and will do so for as long as we make technological advancements. lets not forget that photography is a technological medium. prints, books, galleries and now LCD screens all have their place in how we convey the stories we choose to tell, and will continue to do so. i can’t see how multi media pieces will make photography die a horrible death. its just the latest in a long line of technological advancements. this will excite some and challenge them to embrace it, to explore new possibilities and add the growing visual language. however it will frighten and anger others – who see it as a bastardisation of their beloved medium. they represent the conservative, who fear any change, for me the surest way of ensuring a horrible death.
in all things there are the good and the bad, but then, that is another subjective statement isn’t it. what’s good for me may not be for someone else, and vica-versa. this of course applies to the story that is being told and the way it is being told too. how bored am i of seeing pictures of dusty soldiers in iraq or afghanistan? very. but thats just me. the viewer. that doesn’t mean that the work is bad, the mode of conveying it wrong, or the story boring. it means that i’m not interested.
subjectivity, subjectivity, subjectivity!
i don’t think that there is a big controversial issue in what stories are chosen or how they are shown. multi media work is here to stay, and for me is a fantastic innovation. just look at magnum in motion for example, alex majoli’s requiem in samba and libra me, trente park’s minutes to midnight, are for me all outstanding.
Jamie Lynn Walker
A dry leaf does not burn without other crucial elements added to the mix. Burn burns because of the mix, not in spite of it. You are simply the latest to muse wistfully about how nice Burn would be without the extraneous chit-chat, sugared platitudes, sycophants and whatever other content displeases you. I have read most/all (?) your comments and found them to be considered, thoughtful and articulately expressed. I do not always agree with you but am always stimulated by what you have to say. How unfortunate that you would choose to filter out the voices of others whose style of expression, viewing reactions, discussion points rankle you.
Make no mistake about John Gladdy, a man of few words though he may be, he is also tolerant, thoughtful, kind and respectful to all comers. There was a self-portrait published once. To my mind it was iredeemably awful. And i said so. Short and sweet. John, on the other hand, went to great lengths over several posts to understand why the photo was not working. He gave the photographer every benefit of the doubt pondering whether it was the processing, camera, scanning or relative inexperience of the photographer before concluding that perhaps the photograph simply failed. I learned a lot from/about him that day.
And lest you think that nary a non-essential bit of text escapes his lips, he once posted this poem he wrote about photography that was so universal in its angst, self-doubts, self-deprecating wit that i printed it out and still find it inspirational. So, from the man who said this yesterday ¨I do not pretend to be a wordsmith, so I stay away from using words to paint with.¨, consider this:
My pictures suck,
My Pictures are fantastic
I am a great photographer.
I cannot take a pciture at all.
The high from a picture lasts about a day.
The low from missing lasts weeks.
My best pictures are works of art.
My best pictures are flukes.
pure luck
albatrosses.
The bar is too high.
aim lower?
Give up?
Get back on the horse?
…i don´t have a horse!
I have a camera.
But i don´t know how to make it work.
I am a hunter of light
Laying silver traps,
That are nearly always empty.
or worse: Average.
ok
not bad
useable
My pictures suck.
My pictures are fantastic.
I am a great photograopher.
I cannot take a picture at all.
Best
Kathleen
He totally nailed it with that poem!
as a photographer in progress, this conversation is something that i stand to learn much from. of course, utopia speaking, to have both a willingness to tell a story, as well as the tools available to make that story as effectively illustrated as possible, is what any photographer probably should strive for. a photographer with the greatest techniques, but no personal investment; i imagine their work to come across as detached and aloof. aesthetic ability at best can explain the what, the why, the where, the how, these aspects of a story. But the feeling of a story, that ‘extra’ that motivated the photographer to choose THIS story over an infinite amount of other stories that are out there. This I imagine to be less of a learned technique, and more reflective of the photographer as a person. To this end, I find personability, charisma, compassion and other likeminded personal traits to be just as important as any ability one can have. Of course, objectivity is important so we don’t get swallowed up in a story and lose a sense of perspective, but so is subjectivity – the ability to tell a story from the perspective of someone inside the story itself.
Presently, I teach photography to some of the kids in my neighborhood here in Panama City. Casco Viejo. A world heritage site, incredible architecture in all states of repair/disrepair, ongoing gentrification/restorations/economic revivals mean that the neighborhood is in a constant state of flux. One street will be identical to any street you might find in Old San Juan, another is more or less a no go zone. An able photographer might portray an eloquent story at a macro-level, giving spot-treatment to all sides involved, and illustrate how they interrelate with one another, within an area that takes five minutes to walk from one side to the other. My students tend to return with very micro-level stories, normally based around, ‘this is important to me’. The stories these kids come back with aren’t necessarily ‘ably constructed’, they haven’t had the benefit of years of practice/instruction/mentorship. But are they ‘a total zero’? Personally, I prefer that connection, that intimacy that they return with.
Forgive the rambling, these are just my thoughts [as jay-z famously said]. Of course, Burn is a magazine which, whether or not it explicitly stated, is dedicated to furthering photography as an art while it explores its storytelling capacity. Sometimes these two priorities intersect, sometimes they don’t, and sometimes they clash with one another. However, if we prioritize one over the other, or if we prioritize seamless fusions of the two, don’t we risk excluding something that we very well might be interested in seeing? If an audience refused to hear a story from one of my children because it was somehow not ‘ably’ constructed enough so as to please our eyes, would that say more about the abilities of that child, or about the priorities of the viewer? Without turning Burn or another such venue into a completely democratic forum like Flickr, where everyone can tell whatever they want to the point that it is impossible to hear anything over the cacophony, a photographer’s dedication to a story should be evaluated when considering its worth as a body of work, and no, I don’t think that this extra addition to the criteria would necessarily diminish the quality of work available. After all, isn’t passion a prerequisite to art?
Kathleen, thanks for John’s poem. Yes, absolutely.
Kerry, good to hear your comments. It sounds as if you have a pretty good take on the work, and the comments. Your essay is very powerful, and speaks so loudly to those of us who have been touched by suicide. It has clearly makes a difference.
This essay makes a good case to illustrate how in some instances, the story is so powerful that it overpowers any shortcomings the delivery might have. Despite being “rough around the edges”, it has a huge impact. Perhaps the roughness even underscores the rawness of the emotions being expressed and adds to the power of the piece.
Congratulations for taking this (and us) on.
KERRY….ANTHONY RZ
you are BOTH class acts…
cheers, david
SIDNEY…
i sure hope you are wrong, but you might be right…you surely might be right from a mass media standpoint, which in all honesty has never been the shining star for excellence anyway…..i guess i will be like Erica’s mythical roadside traveler who would rather go hungry than eat from the fast food menu….
cheers, david
David/Sidney
“in other words, as long as the visuals are “OK”, the seemliness and seamlessness of the total package… words, sound, music, pacing, still images, video.. working together… will be more important to most viewers than whether the visual acuity in particular is at a higher level… we might wish otherwise, but I think that is likely to be the case.”
So is effective communication the goal here or is the goal artistic expression? I know one is not exlusive of the other, but photographs, like words, are merely the tools of the storyteller. As photographers, we adore the image, and want every one to be a gem. However the “OK” photographs may be critical components of the whole piece. Every sentence does not have to be poetry or clever metaphor. I’ll happily wash down a Big Mac with a coke now and then.
Panos reminds us of the un-pretentious power of department store and school photographs. Many of the most powerful and moving photographs I’ve ever viwed are snapshots.
I’m not suggesting that we all settle down to make “OK, good enough” photographs, only that perhaps we need to examine our motivations and decide exactly what it is we are trying to achieve. Are we truly trying to tell a story about something we are passionate about, or are we just passionate about making cool photographs, and the story is just a convenient excuse for making them.
Kathleen, thanks for posting the poem by John and John; impressive!
Mike.
“p.s. David, no, I was not moved to tears by Anthony RZ’s comments – although I do fully expect him to buy the first round should we ever meet in real life. ;-)”
Wow, that’s about my definition of elegance. Way to go Kerry.
Anthony – thank you, tho if you had ever dined with me you would know it wasn’t much of a challenge to come up with the metaphor !
and DAH – you just made me realize that my mythical roadside traveler has another side; rather than go hungry, from experience (s)he is able to speculate on the territory ahead and goes to lengths to be sure there is a feast on board, so no one need go hungry due to their discernment. I think here in this metaphor you are driving and I’m just riding shotgun…but at least we’re in the same car :)
DAVID,
Actually, I would rather be wrong… I was speaking in the short-to-medium term… in the long run, I think high quality visuals will reassert themselves… Don’t know, of course… actually, I think the food analogies like Erica’s are good ones (I don’t mean my kumquats and kiwis)… There will always be a market for really inspiring cuisine somewhere… the question is, how many chefs can realistically support themselves by only catering to the high end market? And can the compilers and purveyors of media content really afford to turn up their noses at all but the very best visuals when they have other production values to juggle?
Aside from my gut feelings about what ‘the masses’ expect of photography and the media these days, I was reasoning a bit by analogy with the revolution brought about in the movie industry by the introduction of ‘talkies’ circa 1930… suddenly silent films became passé overnight… all the interest was in sound movies, even Chaplin couldn’t make a silent film that was profitable, but most of the early talkies were far inferior in visual qualities to the films of the last decade of the silent era, and except for the sound, not as good in story-telling qualities either… it took a good 7 or 8 years before the visual craftsmanship and storytelling of the late silent era reasserted itself in Hollywood films. Don’t just take my word for it, see Kenneth Brownlow’s book “The Parade’s Gone By.”
None of these, of course, are reasons for any of us not to aspire to the very highest level of quality and authorship. I mentioned seeing Alex Webb’s photos in the “Iron Silk Road” article in the August National Geographic on the now moribund “Trees and Dreams” thread… When I look at photography like that, I think, ‘…if this is what can be done, how could anyone settle for visual hamburgers?’
Rough percentage of importance, I think:
The story: 80%
The way you tell it: 20%
I’m struggling with both…and I guess you can get by without an initial story because a story will just eventually make itself after you take enough pictures and try to put some together to show someone what the heck you have been doing all the time…but having the story in the first place focuses you, and makes things much easier…I’m only learning this now…need to keep learning to stay alive…
I re-read David’s question:
“what is most important for you as a viewer: the story or the ability to tell it ?”
And I must admit my answer right now is: the ability to tell it…even though I may not like the story.
OK, besides everything else, I consider myself being a starting independent photographer… and at the moment, to me it’s much more relevant to find ways how to gain access to the places where the great global stories are… I live in a little, quiet and peaceful country – plenty of little stories… but I am interested in much more, more extreme, more dynamic, more global, more dangerous… to me, looking for a photo-story and working on it, isn’t only about the story itself, but also about my personal way of living… I know, I am not the only photographer having such desires and problems… I have a feeling, I am yet to make a really interesting photo-story… I have done some wedding photo-stories in the past and I feel confident of my abilities to take decent images continuously… the problem, honestly, I am not really interested in any local story… there are other, my personal problems to this as well… and recently, I have just been catching separate moments in the city’s daily life… only for my personal archive – that’s great, but not enough for me…
Kerry: Good for you! Wonderful!
Erica: I’m fascinated why you would introduce “what the public wants” as vital to the question.
mw: Many thanks for the link. The Pagetti piece is certainly dramatic!
“I live in a little, quiet and peaceful country – plenty of little stories… but I am interested in much more, more extreme, more dynamic, more global, more dangerous… to me, looking for a photo-story and working on it, isn’t only about the story itself, but also about my personal way of living…”
Anthony; I think that’s the trap many fall into. If you can’t find challenging stories in your own neck of the woods, then you aren’t looking hard enough! :-)
By the way, I don’t really believe in ‘the story’ as such – or rather I agree with Henri-Cartier Bresson on creating ‘a visual diary’. To me it makes sense and fits with my life philosophy. The story is where you are or where you go and what happens along the way ie. the story of one’s life. However, I see that this approach is not serving me too well because my images have so little violence in them. For instance, when I was in Bangkok during the Red Shirt protest, I didn’t take any pictures of injured people. But that was because for the 2 months of the protest, I only saw ‘conflict’ on one evening. It was not that I was avoiding it, it was simply that I was not ‘looking for it’. I have been told that I need to incorporate more ‘violence’ in my images but if I don’t see any, should I go looking for it in order to ‘make a story’?
Jenny
NB No sorry, I do have a couple of images of injured people on April 10 now I recall – being treated on the street but that is all.
Spent day in Malibu today.. Day well spent..
Not going to Venice yet… I’m too emotional for that…
Reuniting with old friends…
I haven’t sounded as happy since the last kibbutz party
Haven’t I?
Big hug
Surf is up
I don’t like HCB much nor flies on the wall nor flies in general…
I hate bugs (in general) ;)
Avoiding to photograph “violence” doest mean that “violence” is eliminated…
It is always out there either we ignored it or not..
Either shoot it or not…
Nachtwey photographs it and he explained it numerous times:
“not to be repeated”…
But “violence” is not just part of human nature..
It IS human nature…
That does not mean that we should keep robbing and killing each other .. That’s why we should keep photographing it..
To reminds us that pain will always be part of our existence..
Pain is part of us.. Pain is “necessary”..
We are “designed” to feel pain..
But we shouldn’t be so generous while inflicting it…:)
I can write 4ever..Ross is always “ahead”..:)
“What does Caborca know of Huisiachepic, Huisiaachepic of Caborca? They are different worlds, you must agree. Yet even so there is but one world and everything that is imaginable is necessary to it. For this world also which seems to us a thing of stone and flower and blood is not a thing at all but is a tale. And all in it is a tale and each tale the sum of all lesser tales and yet these also are the selfsame tale and contain as well all else within them. So everything is necessary. Every least thing. This is the hard lesson. Nothing can be dispensed with. Nothing despised. Because the seams are hid from us, you see. The joinery. The way in which the world is made. We have no way to know what could be taken away. What omitted. We have no way to tell what might stand and what might fall. And those seams that are hid from us are of course in the tale itself and the tale has no abode or place of being except in the telling only and there it lives and makes its home and therefore we can never be done with the telling. Of the telling there is no end. And whether in Caborca or in Huisiachepic or in whatever other place by whatever other name or by no name at all I say again all tales are one. Rightly heard all tales are one.”–Cormac McCarthy, “The Crossing”
Jesus, i can’t believe i’m foolish enough (hubris?) to try and write something after having quoted McCarthy and to what is for me the near apotheosis on the truth of both story telling and the world and it’s union, indivisible…..but screw it, this IS Burn and so i’ll wade it….
but before that, let me just say that I haven’t had the opportunity to read the comments following David’s posting and so probably much of what i’ll write is not only redundant to what others have probably written but may even be mute at this point….one thing that I am please to hear (someone sent me an email after i wrote my long comment earlier this evening under Kerry’s piece) is that Anthony and Kerry have had a connecting and supportive conversation…that is wonderful to hear/see….one of the all-too-comment elements of the web is that it depersonalizes to the point that folk malign and mistreat and all the condescension i interpreted in anthony’s post seems to have been another point of miscommunication rather than enmity or contempt….that’s terrific to hear….anyway, so i won’t write anything specifically about the comment about clueless and amateurish and useless etc….
so, story telling…
To begin with, we are all story tellers, each and every one of us and it is our ineluctable nature to listen and lantern and inhabit stories. We ring out against the darkness and the fading of all things by shuttling our lives and selves inside and out of stories. In the beginning was the word, indeed and we use this as our songline to navigate the land and the meaning of the land at first and later to navigate the loss and meaning of the loss of what it means to live and to vanish. We are not mute creatures but filled with aching song and celebrating psalms. We carve out from the mute meaning of things a preaching sermon of what it means to gather and to loose. There isn’t a single one of us, regardless of walk of life or flight of nation that hasn’t been defined by the soul of tale. In fact, the world lives and dies through the passing of that, the world is given shape by the placing into shape sounds and sights and meaning. The world, itself, is a story, refracted and innumerable, threadbare and unasailable. And frankly, it is the only thing we have that gives our life it’s thrust and meaning and breath, whether that story be one of loss or levitation, philosophy or artistry, occupational or spiritual. From our mother’s bossom to our father’s leaving cradle, we are committed to and born along the path of story. And stories, of all shapes and sizes, walks and wilkels, are what join us to one another and those that came before us and will scatter us when we are gone.
The odd thing to me about all this questioning of what constitutes a story is that it seems, frankly, a bit overly academic and sometimes pointless. What is more important the story itself or the way it is told? I am not sure I understand that question at all. For some, the story is the subject and the meaning of that subject (it’s narrative). For some, the way someone tells a story is the story itself (it’s form and conception). Comedians tell stories differently than photographers who tell stories different from writers who tell stories different from teachers who tell stories diffferent from parents who tell stories different from conceptualists who tell stories different from strangers sitting across from one another on the TTC (toronto public transportation). For me, i dont care frankly which is more important, it’s not a question for me, never has been because the answer is always the same:
does it work, in whatever form or shape it takes.
But, as I wrote under Kerry’s piece, what is important, above all in telling a story, in the ability to tell a story, is something more fundamental. The ability to tell a story, to create something and to share it with others begins, above all, with the ABILITY TO LISTEN TO ANOTHER PERSON TELL THE STORY FIRST. It’s obvious and we know this innately, as long before we could speak or write or draw or compose we could listen and listen we did; we watched the world around us and made notes, we scratched and sniffed and jokeyed and jostled trying to figuring it out and shit all of us, or at least most of the folk i know, are still doing just that….listening….watching, trying to figure it out….
As a photographer who is also a writer and a writer who also is a photographer, it’s always been an interesting question as i seldom make photographs and photographic stories without the shadow and background of words and i almost never write anything without visual ideas in my head, including the shape and look of words. I parse and place them together in almost everything i’ve ever made, at least with every photographic essay or exhibition i’ve put together: their complementary and antagonistic and I like it that way. One thing that photography, still photography still does remarkably well is spell out the world through silence in remarkable ways. Photographs, not has truth, but as alchemy, as wands and conjuring moves. Photography, in it’s ambiguity and poetry, somehow takes the quotidian markings of the world and shift-shapes it. I love, always have, the beautiful and haunting silence of photographs and the haunting silence of photogrpahy essays and photography books. Within their extraordinary silence, my head and heart and body and rhyming hum are free to shuttle and think and sing. they communicate, the way the wind moving in the distance through the canopy of trees, communicates not only distance and movement but memory and loss and time. Within the silence of pictures, we are given a vista to imagine and stakeout and reinvent. This cavern, temple really, of silence is really about the endless beauty of our imagination and our memory. The power of still photography lay squarely there: the power of SILENCE. the visual metaphor, the quotidian re-seen through a different perspective. The collision of the pictures to reinvent the real and our interpretations and by extension us through it. Not amount of transformation and technological intervention has, can and will change that. The power of the image will last because we are still visual creatures who communicate with a cosmos of meaning: words, sounds, images. People still write songs and that hasn’t stopped because video came along or youtube. Still photography thrives and will not be burried asunder the panolply of multimedia. There is a place for still photography and that place is more important and more necessary now that ever before.
More people make and develop and print and post and share photographs, still photographs, then ever before. Shit, every single one of my students has a camera and makes 1,000’s of pictures and shares them with everyone and maybe only 1 or 2 % of all the students i’ve ever taught is a ‘photogrpaher’ or wants to be a ‘photographer.’ Sometimes yes, they incorporate text and video and share them and create films but most of the time they’re simply sharing, it’s democratic and thank god for that. and guess what, i love, insanely love, looking at all those damn images….why…i dont know why except that they haunt me and that they somehow connect me to all these people, or rather, they remind me of why i still make stupid, long, pretentious, overly-indulgent art shit photo stories….because it is a way for me to communicate something, something deep and personal that has to do with how i fit into this work and try and navigate my way through it…
photographs, still photographs, are here to stay….
but multimedia is also important and exciting. shit, my hero Chris Marker (who is one of the major inspirations for my photo story Oxen of the Sun) made multimedia projects and films long before we even used that word, in the 50’s and 60’s: with text and video and stills and animation, by himself and with a great polish illustrator. and of course, his magnificent film La Jetee is comprised of all still images, some text, voice narration and then one beautiful, heartbreaking piece of moving image……add to this all the great video artists and documentary filmmakers of the 60’s and 70’s and viola, we realize there is nothing new with this new heroic ‘multimedia’….for me, actually, sometimes i get depressed when i hear photographers/photo world talking about multimedia as if it were the new holy grail, it aint. I love film (have made them too) and love multimedia but i think it is very important that we see it for it’s value. Simply putting together photographs and some video or pictures and text and jumbling doesn’t necessary make it more interesting or more revealing. However, the form of multimedia can be interesting, because, stories are still also about the form of story telling and that form itself can be just as beautiful and just as important a type of story.
the other important consideration is that, obviously, stories fit for different folk. Shit, i’m still reading long-ass 19th century novels while cramming in modern work. I still have the patiences to read and to also devour photographic content. And i always try to see inside the word of the author to see what is the story driving their story. In other words, there is not calculus for success. Each story is determined not by a forumula (which is more important what is being told/shown or how something is told/shown). For me as a ‘modernist’ photographer obsessed with ideas of conceptual questions, i’m much more interested in telling stories that are internal, stories as physical expressions of bodiless things: ideas, emotions, memory, etc. I dont even like to make ‘pretty’ pictures any more but i want to see how much the pictures and the pictures in union with one another and with other ideas (writing for example) can hold up as expressions of what it is I am trying, and failing, to express. Take bones of time for example. when David published it here last year some liked it some hated it. i was called a ‘bad photographer’ by a few, some even pointed out dust and scratches on the images, even though i’d scratched some of the negatives on purpose and threw dirt on my diana when doing some portraits. when i saw bones first here, i was kind of horrified because somehow when i scaled the size of the pictures to meet the burn standards, something when wrong and in some of my pictures got this weird pixelization, like dots and it looked horrible…Lassal told me the technical word, which sometimes happens when converting scanned negatives into digital files and then re-sizing later…whatever it was, many of the pictures look different from the real ones in my home…and does this mean the story is bad…the technique bad?….maybe…well, i am an idiot when it comes to digital processing my scans, that is for sure or with using photoshop…
the point being that to me, what matters is the totality,not the division. Generally, it seems to me, the commentators at burn and many of the photographers, tend to be traditionalists or documentary traditionalists. I respect and love this, as i consider myself a documentary photographer but i think it is important that one remembers that when deciding to tell stories what is important is the questions the author themselves must make…..i think, it’s always the SAME story, no matter what story….and that is about the living of this life….
and like john vink mentioned, i know many great great stories that have been told to me by folk who didnt know they could tell stories or didnt consider themselves story tellers, let alone photographers or writers or multimediaists…..
some of these questions about multimedia too seem a bit, well, surface. i agree that what is exciting about multimedia is much of the same things that make films and video art and conceptual/installation art exciting: use of music and text and contrapuntal ideas and it is NOT just about pans and edits (i hate ken burns effect), but about exploring, endless, the boundaries of what stories are….and guess what, we’ll never satisfy everyone…and what matters, to me, or rather, the stories that I best respond to, are the ones in which the speaker/author/photographer/writer has invested some real and authentic and risky part of themselves and has offered it up to others for inspection, examination and possible rejection…for we share ourselves to twine the world, that is it…..
there is a reason i love Alec Soth’s Little Brown Mushroom project so much is that because he still believes in the power of the story in the power of the book….that in this age of digitalization where ebooks sell more than analog books, there is still a place and a real need for books that are comprised of silence…..silence of pictures….silence of words….
the silence for your own private space in which to wonder and in which to partake of this world….
and that IS our ability to tell….
our beautiful, mad, broken hope to partake of this world and to speak of that to ourselves and others until our dying breath vanquishes us in that small space inside….
and that ability, even then, shall never leave us
cheers
bob
There are storytellers and those that just tell stories
Jenny – like DAH said “it is one of the most important discussions in photography today” and though I first offered my personal point of view, I think a global discussion of the issue requires more than a personal perspective. The question is not just about content and delivery, but about if and how that content and delivery is communicated, digested, understood and used by others.
Erica: So, if you view the question in that way, it follows that you therefore consider “what the public wants” when creating your stories – is this correct?
Bob I love the word “apotheosis”..:)
It’s as Greek as Diamanda Galas’s grandmother..:)
Man u type fast;)
I’d rather have a grandfather that “storytells” than just simply tell stories;)
Ross: Moments, yes. But not necessarily ‘random’ and not part of a story other than the author’s ‘life’ or ‘journey’.
Panos: You are making me laugh!!! : )
It is very strange that not all of these comments are appearing in time order… at this moment, a comment that Ross wrote at 6:09 is appearing after comments that I wrote at 11.45… or they are on my screen… wierd… they are making that one comment appear as ‘a random moment in time’! ; )
Jenny ,Ross possess powers out of this world..
He can stretch or bend “time”..
Einstein first and Akaky later proved it is possible…
About the laughs? Ah I know it’s a dirty job but somebody has to do it;)
ANTHONY RZ,
If I responded to every ridiculously fatuous pronouncement I read on BURN, it would be a full-time job and then some. Besides, I figure, I was young once too, and probably just as fatuous… a little tolerance and forbearance are called for, people usually need to learn things for themselves, and they need the space for that to happen. But this particular line caught in my craw and I couldn’t let it pass unanswered:
“The purpose of art is to touch otherwise indifferent people…”
Oh, really??? And here, all these years I’ve been thinking that “the purpose of art” was to keep amused and out of trouble chimpanzees and some other large primates, too clever for their own good and with lots of time on their hands, in ways that were relatively harmless to themselves and others! Thanks for setting me straight…
The rest of that post affirms that you have a young person’s self-assurance, willingness to be intolerant and doctrinaire, and little self consciousness about how your words and behavior impact the world around you. Fair enough, you’re certainly not alone.
“I live in a little, quiet and peaceful country – plenty of little stories… but I am interested in much more, more extreme, more dynamic, more global, more dangerous… ”
At first I didn’t know whether to laugh or cry when I read this, but since you seem sincere and have already been adequately (and justifiably) boxed around the ears by numerous other commentors for your earlier ill-mannered remarks to Kerry, I will attempt a sincere response.
(I’m just guessing here… might that “little, quiet and peaceful country” possibly be an island city-state in Southeast Asia? If so, then the big, “dynamic, global, dangerous” stories also exist there… but they are ones you don’t even dare think about because the clamps of authority will crush you before you even get started).
Maybe I’m wrong, maybe it’s not that particular ‘small, peaceful country’, but I guaran-fucking-tee you that there are big, important stories that affect the globe that are to be found there, where you are, wherever ‘there’ is, because that’s what ‘global’ has come to mean these days. Are they easy stories to tell in photographs? Maybe not, but they are important, and if photography is your chosen medium, then you have to try. If you succeed, you will probably become a great photographer in the process.
Here are some examples of big 21st century stories that are unfolding everywhere right now, even in ‘small peaceful countries’ and need to be told:
1. Energy… where it comes from, who controls it, how it shapes a society and people’s behavior, what alternatives exist… including just using less.
2. Wealth… where it comes from, who controls it, who doesn’t have it, how is it used, the inequalities it creates, the power it buys, where it disappears to. Corruption in government, in business, and in the police.
3. Environment… there is no modern society on earth that lives in any kind of equilibrium with the natural environment… what and how much do people consume, what is being destroyed forever, how are people adapting or not adapting to to the environment, what are the consequences of people’s lifestyles, where is progress being made, why are so many companies (and governments) spending more on advertising how ‘green’ they are than on actually doing anything positive about the environment… Where does your water come from, how is it distributed, what does it cost, how much do you consume and how?
4. The Justice system… who benefits from it, who is victimized by it, where are its inefficiencies and problems, how is it abused?
5. Health and medicine… an infinity of topics here, including the business of health, scientific research, preventive medicine, epidemiology, health care delivery
6. Education… how, for what, for who?
7. Race and ethnicity… language, multiculturalism, intermarriage, inequalities, discrimination, quotas, immigration
8. Religion… expressions of faith, politics and religion, conflicts between religions and conflicts within religious organizations
9. Media… how people get information, what they believe and why, the myths and untruths that are easy to create but so hard to disprove, the change in media dominance and the huge media empires
10. Technology’s impact on people’s daily lives.
11. What we called the ‘Battle of the Sexes’ back in the 50s and today is usually referred to as ‘Gender Issues’… not just gays, lesbians, and transsexuals, but even among so-called ‘straight people’… how do we interact? How should we interact? What does ‘family’ mean?
12. Generation gaps, parenting, children’s issues, old people
I could go on… but if you haven’t gotten the point by now, what hope is there?
The fundamental questions we all must grapple with, and they never change, and they exist in all ages and in all countries, are “How can we live? How should we live? What is wrong, and how can we change it? What is right, and how can we learn from it? How do I get along with the people around me? What are we missing that is in front of our noses?”
If photography really is a tool for change, it must be adaptable in some way to telling these stories, or at least in helping to tell these stories.
As you can tell from my big talk, as compared to the paltry photographic output I have made available to BURN readers, I am a coward and a lazy bastard and a hypocritical old blowhard. I abdicated my responsibility for dealing with most of these issues (at least photographically) long ago. But, heed what I say… if you really want to make a difference, find a way to tell these kinds of stories with photographs… trust me, it will have far more impact than yet another batch of images of dusty G.I.’s in Afghanistan or earthquake aftermath in Haiti.
Cheers,
(Hey, Bob Black, my post is still shorter than yours…!)
Bob Black…
Thanks once again for your wisdom and your way with words.
Sidney,
Really thanks for motivation and inspiration …
Yes…yes indeed
All that
And an interesting thing about photography is it can tell a story in so many ways. A photo is one of the best ways to forward a lie, to make something from nothing into something. CNN does it all the time, as I discovered just recently. I took a photo the first day I was in Grand Isle after the spill first hit the shores of Louisiana and it was of two fish a fisherman had tossed on the shore–trash fish I guess. That night viewing a montage of photos on CNN there were those same fish used to show how bad the oil was and the devastation it was wreaking. I had taken a photo of them and it was exactly the same fish. Not saying that the oil did not kill thousands of fish and it is one of the worst environmental disasters ever, but it proved to me again that a photo is worth a thousand words and a photo can tell a story that isn’t even there–it says something different to every single person that views it. That is one of the most intriguing aspects of photography for me.
I read a story recently about a woman (in Chile in the late 1800’s) that was really into photography and took photos of her new family (of course miles from her family out in the middle of nowhere). When she showed the photos to a friend the friend said, “…what an interesting relationship your husband has with his sister-in-law.” Then she began to look at the photos and realized the moments she had caught held the clues to a relationship between her husband and her husband’s brother’s wife. There are layers upon layers in a photo just as there are so many layers in a story. Check out Rumi’s stories sometime and begin to see the layers.
Bob, you astound me with the amount of words you write. It makes me dizzy sometimes. LOL.
Somewhere in the discussion on one or the other of the new posts someone said we don’t have to go anywhere to find a story worthy to tell. I agree; however, as residents of an area we tend to glaze over and don’t see the stories right in front of our face. It made me realize, again, that there is much to shoot in my own backyard, stories that need to be told. Somehow I can’t get interested, again, in my own back yard.
Although, my neighbor’s alpaca just gave birth to the cutest little baby alpaca. An hour after it’s birth he was jumping and falling and running into the fence and falling. Amazing. I did take photos of that.
Where are you Civi? What country are you in now?
Jenny, I finally figured out that the time stated on my posts was actually NY time. I posted my last one at 8:21 p.m. on Wednesday and it shows as 2:21 a.m. which is NY time. I am confused by Ross’ post time as it says 6:09 a.m. which is where? I just forget about it and realize there is a night and day shift here and many late nighters.
Education, and what the masses want.
How does that fit into the equation here? Isn’t Burn a tool to educate people that junk food isn’t necessarily a good thing, especially in the long run, and not the only way to nurture oneselves?
KERRY. So Sorry. Your email got buried under a ton of spam and I missed it. My Bad. Beers are on me next time im in the apple….hopefully mid septemberish.
john
Lee
Loved that story of the woman in Chile!
Sidney
Damn, it’s good to see you back..
Jenny
I agree with Ross. That comment about adding more violence rings awfully hollow to me. Gratuitous violence can’t possibly make work more meaningful/significant/compelling/important. And if it does then it would seem the photography was lacking some very essential qualities from the get-go. Violence shouldn’t be a given. It’s an aberration in a civilized society. Yet you talk about it like you’re wondering if you should add some oregano to your tomato sauce. I live where violent endings are not unusual. Yet it would never occur to me to wonder if a dead body or two would spice up my work. And i cannot imagine giving credence to anyone who made that suggestion to me.
best
kathleen
best
Kathleen
wow, the postings are screwy! Ross posted his comment to Jenny first..then i responded and yet mine appears above his. woooo..
Being only a few weeks removed from seeing the massive HCB exhibit at MOMA, I’m comfortable saying that he was one of the greatest photographic storytellers of all time. Those moments in time weren’t random, you know. They were decisive.
And don’t forget the portraits. He was a master at telling other people’s stories. Or the assignments. Dude made a living.
Stanley Greene, interview, I guess it fits with the dialogue here:
http://lens.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/07/22/shoptalk-7/
“what is most important for you as a viewer: the story or the ability to tell it ?”
As a viewer who cares about the condition of the world, and given that the story told claims to tell the truth: BOTH the story and the ability to tell it are important to me.
Can the two be separated?
Does a show of light and geometry (and moving images and sound if you wish) make the world a better place if it is used in an advert in a military trade magazine to sell weapons?
Say there is a story about diminishing water somewhere, likely to cause a war… Would viewers be interested in looking at the story if the pictures are not visually interesting?
GORDON…
you ask if communication is the goal OR artistic expression?? hmmmm, why would the two be mutually exclusive?? there is often the assumption that “art” does not communicate and that “mass communication” contains no artistic expression…i have often used here the example of Ernest Hemingway “covering” the Spanish Civil War…as a reporter for the Kansas City Star and as the author of For Whom The Bell Tolls…which “report” has lasted and which reporting that he did is the TRUTH about the war?? the event, the war, is the same…in other words, the so called journalistic “story” is the same either way…the telling is what is different..even by the same person…one a presentation of the “facts” and one a love story enmeshed in these “facts”….in which Hemingway “telling” is the communication best about the horrors and feeling of war and in which presentation is the artistic expression the best as well??
cheers, david
Sidney Atkins,
Thanks for your valuable time – I think quite fair criticism:))… but of course, everything is much more complex than you have just written and concluded… I do have my themes, and I do know where they are… seems you read only what you want to read, and you don’t even try to read between the lines… it’s fine… Actually, I found nothing new that I wasn’t aware of in your proposed examples… there are much more than two approaches, ways or philosophies of what, where, why and how to photograph… and how to live… thanks for sharing yours… Moreover, I absolutely don’t believe in that myth that photography makes a difference – it does not in the short time, and even more so in the long run… but we don’t necessarily have to tell it every time, and to a non-photographers crowd… Acting, for example, like James Nachtwey does about the importance of photo-stories is just a much more productive and logical marketing step… And Sidney, stop hating me:)), I am not that bad guy in real life… it’s just my opinion that majority seems not to like:))…
My 2ps worth.
For me I have to go back to basics so things are simple for my uncomplicated mind.
Story/willingness to tell/ability to tell.
There are many great stories weather in your backyard or anywhere. Some stories more complex than others. That is a given.
See,feel,hear a story recognize the viable narrative.
Get Access
Start shooting with your vision (I call it a golden thread) in mind. Allow flexibility as stories always change. Also you can’t be in all places at all times, shoot what is around you.
Edit into tangible story. Juggling those hero shots with narrative shots.
Naturally, as we are talking photography here, all of the above is overlayed with composition,style,technical skills, vision and general nounce to get the job done.
There are always variations, the story could be so great, but the photography mediocre yet it makes a powerfull piece and vice versa
Zeitgeist is an issue, do you respond to this?
This is my very simplistic view.
I have distilled this from a project I am working on at the moment, quite a complex story, that kept throwing other lines of investigation my way, I had to keep hauling myself back to the original story, even during the editing. There are some hero shots but they don’t clearly illustrate the story so they must stand as individuals.
Overall, all parts are key to sucesfull storytelling. The story, the willingness to tell it and the ability to tell it.
Remember everyone has a story.
Anyway clear as mud.
Cheers
Ian
ROSS…
i cannot imagine anyone of repute telling any photographer that they need to incorporate more violence in their pictures…nor can i imagine any photographer believing such a statement even if somebody did say it…
and yes, i agree , HCB did not photograph “stories” per se in the classic sense of “picture story” as did his contemporary W. Eugene Smith…two great photographers to think about when discussing this subject…however , both did interpret events going on around them in their individual styles…so, in this sense they are both “tellers”…the word “story” is often mis-used i think…many think “story” is something with a beginning, middle, and end…when in fact a representation or essay can simply be a series of impressions and leave us with a feeling rather than with a didactic “message”….
cheers, david
David,
Thank you for the Hemingway example…
I also remember something about there being only a small number of stories to tell…how one tells them is what makes them timeless, or not…
David, the Hemingway analogy is apropos. That’s what I’ve been trying to get at in the context of multimedia, comparing and contrasting the story structure in the Pagetti piece, which is more akin to For Whom the Bell Tolls, vs the numerous examples of what I’ve been calling broadcast news stories, which are the more like the newspaper journalism of old. Both are valid forms, but the literary-styled efforts have the potential to be more powerful and long lasting. I don’t know what the equivalent photography term for “literary” would be? It must be like comparing Salgado’s Otras Americas to assignment work he did along the way. One eternal, the other mostly lost to collective memory. Of course on the other hand, Hemingway’s journalism had an immediate real world impact while Bell was essentially about a bunch of ghosts. But these days, particularly with photography, that time lag is not so much an issue.
KATHLEEN…
yes, we have some tech problem…the sequence of postings is just not lining up correctly…if you look at the time of posting, you can see they are often not in sequence…who knows where this will end up?? i will check with tech support and try to get this fixed soonest…thanks for your patience…
cheers, david
“I have been told that I need to incorporate more ‘violence’ in my images”
Jenny; I think you need to seek out better advice! As for HCB, I never feel like he shot “stories” as such anyway; to me they always seem like a series of random moments in time.
Cheers :-)
Good stuff Ross you are getting the last say………..
Stories are everywhere… but OK, what about the fact that in order to tell it by using a camera, and maintaining high artistic and aesthetic standards, the story has to be photogenic by itself???… to me seems, that’s why photographers tend to walk and travel a lot in order to find those photogenic moments or stories… well, a lot depends on the photographer’s ability to notice things… but I would still be interested in what you think about that…
“that’s why photographers tend to walk and travel a lot in order to find those photogenic moments or stories…”
Photographers from Germany travel to Mexico, Mexican photographers travel to India, Indian photgraphers travel to New York, those to the North Pole.. then luckily photographers go extinct.. ;)
MW…MICHAEL WEBSTER
yes, this is the issue..or, at least one of the main issues…well, most of us who have earned our living doing at least some mass media work, the photographs we make most usually have two lives…as did HCB , Smith , etc as well…we make our work for a particular magazine and a particular story and then LATER in our own books etc do we then give new life and the overall meaning for the work…i am sure in much the same way Ernest used his press credentials from the Kansas City Star to “get to the story” even though is greatest story came much later…i often “use” magazines to get to the place or story or whatever…they also use me to get what they need…a fair exchange…nobody at Natgeo DECIDED that i should spend the better part of 25 years studying the Spanish diaspora..that was my personal decision…they did not even realize it was happening nor even had happened until i published a book saying so…i took those commissions one at a time and for specific reasons at the time, yet knowing in the back of my mind that i was doing a body of work and not simply a singular assignment…not in conflict with NG at all, but in addition to their more immediate use….
i am sure Hemingway “used” the KC Star to get to the war…and i am also quite sure that he never saw the newspaper as his only outlet for the greater message or “story” he had to tell..HCB might have done it less because he came into this world well funded so to speak..but for those of us who need to earn a living and survive, most use magazine and other commissions to finance their work , yet few see the mass publication of their work as the final resting place for this work or even the whole story…one of the great things about the net and about what you are doing specifically is that we can do it all…there may be no need to separate in the very near future….
i am not fully engaged in all the chat here of late for two reasons..first, i have two magazine commissions going…one on Rio , one on the Outer Banks…both for mass consumption at some point, both personal book ideas that i would do anyway or with a grant or just somehow…the other most important “personal project” involves the essays/work of readers here…BURN 01 which is a full time job now for several of us in and of itself…i think when you hold BURN 01 in your hands, you will see at least a small part of what online can become other than simply online chatter…the further manifestation will be when we fully are able to incorporate the at least sometime use of some multimedia interplay of which you are most interested……all of this is exciting exhilarating stuff…i guess my point is that if anyone really does have anything to “say” there is no shortage of outlets to say it…and the best, as usual, will rise….there will always be the cream no matter what the quantities…i am counting on you to play an important part…
cheers, david
It would probably be a very different tone here if there was a bunch of 18/19/20 year olds contributing on this thread………. I am sure I would learn a lot more from them about the state of thinking than those who are here…… no disrespect meant to those here on my part (maybe a bit, better keep myself honest)
“…try and translate personal experience into a collective one, it is very possible and I think the key quest of any art form…” (Donovan Wylie)
I’d suggest, dare I mention art and journalism in the same breath, can be applied to the journalist/didactic too. Surely any and all modes of expression should be explored and be valid too, if they allow people to comprehend the world around them. I like the Spanish civil war example, and would most certainly throw Picasso’s Guernica into the mix, another version of the “story”, but equally valid.
ANTHONY RZ..
i have taken airplanes to the other side of the planet to make photographs for magazines and the last picture i took for publication , i took from my bicycle about a 100 yards or so from my home…either way a challenge , either way fascinating , either way an education, and either way one of the most pleasant ways of going through life i can imagine…basically , i think travel is irrelevant from the creative standpoint…some do need to move in order to be stimulated, while others prefer the comforts of familiar surroundings….no matter….you know i think the reality is this…when we are “in the mood” we are capable of the most amazing things…either in the sciences or in the arts…getting “in the mood” could be survival itself or writing the last line of a sonnet when in love…either way man reacts to whatever is going on around him….to capture any aspect of this life either with pen, or brush or camera in any symbolic gesture is a treasure…and the pursuit of this treasure is for sure its own reward….
JASON…
yes, i often think of Guernica in this context as well
cheers, david
Disagree with the “in the mood” bit sheer grit, persistence and hard work gets one there
http://www.wikigallery.org/wiki/painting_250691/Francisco-De-Goya-y-Lucientes/I-am-Still-Learning
IMANTS…
laughing…agreed…well, some of the writers here are in that age category like Jason who just posted…but, we could always use more..the basic age demographic for Burn is 18-35….ironically most of the commentators are older than the mean demographic…..
“in the mood” results of course totally involves persistence, sheer grit, and hard work to make things happen…but nobody does anything unless “in the mood” first….
re Hemmingway – I have had a collection of his journalism in my camera bag for nearly a decade – Hemmingway – Byline ! that and David Hurns how to be a photographer…together they both weigh more than that third camera body I never seem to get around to getting, but infinitely more valuble.
I have to admit I was pretty steamed about Anthony RZ’s initial critique of Kerrys essay , but figure that she is a big girl and can fight her own battles…my gut instinct was ..how do you criticize a work that is so unflinchingly honest? There’s not a lot of it about!
david alan harvey,
Seems I understood what you exactly meant, and I share the same point of view… You know David, my recent dream is to have a cup of coffee with you, somewhere in New York :)))… cheers…
Anthony RZ
See below a quote from Kertesz, he did a whole load of pictures either from his window or at his window to his aprtment.
“Everything that surrounds you can give you something. Last summer I stayed in my room most of the time and I began playing around with things. Years ago I was given a little primitive Polaroid camera and I didn’t like it–it was for snapshots. But one day I took it out. I had discovered, in the window of a shop, a little glass bust, and I was very moved because it resembled my wife–the shoulder and the neck were Elizabeth. For months and months I looked at the bust in the window and I finally bought it. The lady in the shop said, ‘It’s a beautiful bust, sir.’ ‘I know,’ I said. And I took it home, put it in my window, and began shooting and shooting with the Polaroid camera–in the morning, in the afternoon, in different lights. Something came out of this little incident, this little object. They made a book of all the pictures I took. It is dedicated to my wife. Look how the face of the bust is always changing: a shadow, which is the shadow of the curtain, then a passing cloud.
The sky and its reflection give it the expression. I didn’t arrange this thing–it was “there”. Photography cannot make nature more beautiful. Nature is the most beautiful thing in the world. You can show the beauty, illustrate it, but it is never the real beauty–very far from it. We don’t know how beautiful nature really is. We can only guess. I am always saying the best photographs are those I never took.”
A few years ago some old b/w prints turned up in a street market. They were pictures of vegetables on a white background. Anything from onions to leaks to carrots to potatoes. It turned out they were the taken by the head gardener at a country house, he just wanted to document all his produce. The extraordinary thing, they were all taken with daylight, beautifully composed (bear in mind this is in the days of glass plates) and are totally exquisite. The series of prints has been sold through Sotherby’s.
All he wanted to do was document his produce but he actually produced a beautiful story and an historical document.
Cheers
ian
Absolutely… you know, my experience is – the more I walk with the camera, concentrate, look for the pictures, people, lifestyles… the more I find them… it doesn’t happen right away… quite often, after a while I grows into a one or another photo-story… but I tend to lose that keen interest in them quite quickly as well… but then I come back later… constant movement…
Anthony RZ…
Working to commission I am often given assignments that on the face of it are an up hill struggle eg. make this businessman look like a rockstar. You have to get on with the job, the client has hired you to tell the story in a photo. As a visually literate person you have to find the interest or create the interest with use of light or backgrounds etc. Throw all your photographic knowledge arsenal to create interest.
and aitken, really good stuff on your website as well… cheers
Thanks
Ian
aitken,
OK, fortunately, I can afford to work just on my own, and to do what I want to do, and how I want it to do… to me, the interest, and light with backgrounds are absolutely different and detached things… The process of taking single photographs is just interesting enough occupation for me itself…
aitkin, probably not the right place but i wanted to add that i love your great british seaside series…really luscious colours.
DAH wrote: “…getting “in the mood” could be survival itself or writing the last line of a sonnet when in love… either way man reacts to whatever is going on around him…. to capture any aspect of this life either with pen, or brush or camera in any symbolic gesture is a treasure… and the pursuit of this treasure is for sure its own reward….”
These words themselves are treasure! : )
Wow! its been a while since I was in that age bracket. Do i come across as an 18/19/20 year old!
All children are artists. The problem is how to remain an artist once he grows up. (Picasso again!), so, perhaps its a good thing. (not that 18/19/20 year olds are children of course, but you know what i mean, right?)
J
ANTHONY RZ…
i will not be in new york until late august and september, but of course we can have coffee any time you are around…do you live in new york or visit often?? you are of course invited to come up and check out our student workshop slide show and fiesta following…just stay in touch and i will keep you abreast of whatever is going on in the loft etc etc….
JENNY…
please do not think you need violence in your work…that is definitely not YOU….
JASON…
yes, i guess you are a little older, but not by much, at least not by my standards…in any case, your youthful countenance is most valued!!
ok, out for the rest of the day…long drive, boat ride, maybe pics at the other end…maybe not..again, will sure enjoy myself trying…
cheers, david
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bR3K5uB-wMA&feature=related
LEE…i will see your alpaca baby photo …after the 15th of August…
I am south of Italy…EVA…thanks…I have been warned
I am 18+19+20…oime…
BURN is BURNING,
flames are rising
eyes are roaming
ears are ringing
brains are resisting…
our soul existence …
blah,blah,blah
I LOVE YOU ALL
Thanks Vicky, I was working on a pro bon project for a seaside town. What struck me about it was the old fashioned nature of the town, it is a place where kids can run relativly free, there are amusement arcades, crazy golf, icecream,great beach, fresh caught crabs. I tried to represent this in the style of the pics and also the colour treatment.
Cheers
ian
oops forgot to say, for me this helped in the story telling by setting the scene with the colour.
Ian
David thank you very much… well, at the moment I live faraway from New York… in a little country in eastern Europe… I don’t come to New York often, but I used to live there for a while, seven years ago… and now I am trying to find a way how to solve the US visa problems so I can make my move to the Big Apple… from the middle of september I am going to travel around the world anyway… cheers
Kind of agree with Imants, though I’d bump the age range up to something more like 22 to 30. I’m around a lot of high school kids, both from the best schools in nyc and the worst, and what little thinking they do about art mostly ends when the bell rings (though it’s true they may do some interesting thinking up to that point). And of course I’m aware that anyone’s personal experience, most importantly my own, is ridiculously limited and one shouldn’t apply it too broadly. We’ll see how it plays when they get older, but based on high school I’d put my money on the less privileged kids.
My daughter, for example, went to an art school where she studied still photography and filmmaking (among many other subjects). In both areas, they used actual film in the beginning classes. They learned to develop and dodge and burn and edit the old fashioned way and they studied classic works by the masters. It was only in the advanced classes that they got to digital. The work they produced, for the most part, looked very familiar. My daughter’s senior video project was based on a story by Melville, the camera was steady at all times, the zooms and pans elegantly done and the whole thing was perfectly white balanced throughout. Don’t get me wrong, it was very impressive — not at all what you would expect from an 18 year old. But is “not what you’d expect from an 18 year old really a good thing? The less privileged kids, on the other hand, all take thousands and thousands of photos on their phones and digital cameras and the style they go for is consistent with the flashy stuff wee see on tv and in the movies. What will happen when they get a little education and access to more advanced tool? It’ll be interesting to see which group, if either, proves to be more innovative as time goes on. Will the well educated use that solid base to build on or will the self-taught with infinitely more practice leave those versed in the old ways in the dust? It will be interesting to see how they come together in college.
Anyway, to some extent I think the difference between those with a video/motion perspective vs. those from a still photography centric background will prove to be more important than raw age. Video people think quite differently and in many ways they are far beyond us in terms of multimedia. The question, as I see it, is can we use those tools to enhance the presentation of still photography or will those youngsters Imants is so enthused about use the same tools to bury us?
No Jenny, I wouldn’t say it follows that I consider the public when creating (shooting) a body of work.
Rather that one needs to be open to understanding the role the properties different media play in the transmission / distribution of the work, once created. We make choices about if we are shooting film, if the work is to be in color, there are many considerations we have had all along as photographers before the work is finished and then after, is this work best shown in a white walled gallery or in a book, or magazine, small prints or large, as a projection, etc. and now we have multimedia in the mix…
When I responded to DAH’s question in my first post I was thinking about the ongoing discussions of the effect that mm has on the way people take in and distribute still photography, and how still photogs are expected to work in mm, and about photographers ability or inability to use mm despite the demand, or perceived demand.
Terry Gilliam, David Lynch and Ken Burns know a thing or two about using motion to enhance the presentation of still photography, as did the late Stanley Kubrik…but I’m not sure I would call their work still photography anymore…great work nonetheless…
“The question, as I see it, is can we use those tools to enhance the presentation of still photography or will those youngsters Imants is so enthused about use the same tools to bury us?”…….. I hope they do
IMANTS..
that is the way things are supposed to go…the order of things….but, we have one more bit to do…cheers
meaning, Jenny, that I may have introduced the element of the public here in this thread, but I did not introduce them into the larger, ongoing discussion. I made an assumption in my response that people were already midstream into this larger story vs. storytelling and multimedia discussion – and was just addressing an existing issue. Apologies for assumption.
that is the way things are supposed to go…the order of things….but, we have one more bit to do…cheers……….. yep they still depend on us for all sorts of reasons
I have a 4 day workshop coming up with 10, 11 and 12 year olds, first stop is the zoo, they will probably feed me to the aardvarks, saves on the burial I guess
ANTONYRZ, Antoni…Eastern Europe…oime…where are you mate…
IMANTS…no worries…Emergency funding can do miracles…:)))
10+11+12…hmmm
BURN is The place to Be…
going to buy cream…
ALL: Unfortunately I can’t find the source of the discussion on Hemingway (one ‘n’). It could be that the process by which he created his fictional works could be transposed to create multimedia pieces. His ‘ice-berg theory’ fits with imagery too – that the power of the whole is far greater than the sum of individual parts (sequences of words, images or video) – and what you see is less than what you feel beneath the surface – that raw power that can hit and resonates within you without your fully understanding it. Hemingway achieved it through a very specific process that he developed involving meticulous honing and did not stop until he had reached perfection.
The reason I brought up Henri Cartier-Bresson is that the approach to ‘telling’ clearly has a major impact on what is produced. The approach itself relates to a way of perceiving the world and our place within it and results in a broader ‘perspective’ than alternative approaches that are more common nowadays – when it comes to news in particular. Other approaches have become the norm but this is a pity because they more readily (by the very nature of the documentation process) result in ‘sensationalism’. Cartier-Bresson was concerned with capturing the moments – the photographic process – and the stories that were made of those moments were part of one story which was his life/journey/visual diary. The stories were made in hand with others as I understand it. This approach, when you think of it, is quite different than selecting a story and conceiving of the form it should take based on a pre-conceived idea of the story itself. You are more in control of ‘directing the story’ before the story has actually ‘surfaced’. I am sorry if I am not explaining this too well.
I must go now… perhaps more later if anybody feels it is relevant. I believe it largely accounts for the reason why there is less ‘violence’ to be seen in my work when I have been in places that have hit the news (Mumbai, Bangkok etc).
one ‘m’ not ‘n’! : )
Erica: No problem at all but you have not answered a very direct and clear question! Yes/No would be great.
Maybe reread Jenny, I answered in 2 responses. Not every question has a simple yes or no answer. But if you look, my answer began with, “No, Jenny…” so that should satisfy if you want a reduction.
ie the HBC approach means that you are NOT directing the story or are directing it to a lesser extent… in case that was confusing! ; )
Erica wrote: “Not every question has a simple yes or no answer.” This is true. But that one did by the way that I asked it. Thanks a million!
To clarify then, to me, your question did not have a simple yes or no answer.
But I pretty much of gave you one anyway…
“No Jenny, I wouldn’t say it follows that I consider the public when creating (shooting) a body of work.”
But as to me it wasn’t entirely a straightforward issue, I answered (no) and then expounded on my thought, as there were things I thought might help you understand.
What’s your point here?
Erica: Yes. And thank you for answering it.
you are welcome.
Terry Gilliam, David Lynch and Ken Burns know a thing or two about using motion to enhance the presentation of still photography, as did the late Stanley Kubrik…
The list is long. For me it’s Tarkovsky. But back to the question of tools and burials, note the hype for last week’s mega-blockbuster at the multiplex. The PR compared its director favorably with Kubrick. Not exactly still photography, “Inception.”
Tarkovsky is great…watched Solaris, Stalker (also a great computer game)…and read Roadside Picnic, upon which the film and game is based…been thinking about games a lot lately…there are some good ones, with deeper themes coming out now and again…perhaps that is the place where the next ‘media revolution’ will come from…especially the independent scene…check out http://www.molleindustria.org/en/home Had not heard of Inception, but i hope the hype is true…
I am looking at this on a 10 inch screen and it’s a little tricky to find individual comments. laughing. only 220+ comments, is that it? So it should be easy but still i find myself going up, down, up, down looking for the comments. Maybe it would be better to attack it from the other end or perhaps copy the whole thing into a word document? I might get to find a comment or an answer split into two parts from Erica, who knows? I think I spotted one from Lee. LoL. ok. diving into it now… wish me luck!
Please forgive me for hijacking the conversation for just a bit. I was putting together a portfolio Blurb book for my trip to New York the first week in August, when I realized that it was five years ago that I took my first photography class. “Introduction to Photography” was the first class I took at a community college. I used film, worked in the dark room and got my hands dirty. Seems like forever ago. Looking through old photos brings me instantly back to that time, place and even the state of mind of that moment.
Anyway, that thought got me excited, so I put together a version for public consumption (and purchasing).
http://www.blurb.com/bookstore/detail/1485848
And now we return to our regularly scheduled discussion.
Like Tarkovsky’s other films, Stalker relies on long takes with slow, subtle movement of camera, rejecting the conventional use of rapid montage. Almost all of the shots that aren’t set in the zone are in a high contrast brown monochrome. The film contains not more than 142 shots in 163 minutes with an average shot length of almost one minute and many shots lasting for more than four minutes.
Now I’m going to watch that and it’ll set back my multimedia prospects by who knows how many years. Just kidding… kind of. I’m sure there will always be a place for slow. Just not at the top of the charts.
Hi everyone! Uhmm “ability to tell” or rather “ability to FEEL” the story, “ability to being ENGAGED” in the story. I think that is the only way to do a mark in whatever art branch: photography, painting, drawing, writing, etc,…
I’ve just finished seeing the MediaStorm web site, and the multimedia of Iowa, DRIFTLESS. The Photog, said that best stories are around the corner… so you can go back and shoot at any time and connect to the people that are like you and you’ll become part of the scenario. To fade into the scenario.
I can’t imagine David shooting in a cold country… I can’t imagine Bruce Gilden shooting in the desert. They have a style, an engagement, feeling with that kind of people or places.
So, what about this order: 1. to feel, 2. to be engaged in the story, 3. to tell, and finally to shoot. Editing is the thoughest part at the end of every single day…
p.
Officials at Goskino were critical of the film[16], on being told that the film should be faster and more dynamic, Tarkovksy replied: “the film needs to be slower and duller at the start so that the viewers who walked into the wrong theatre have time to leave before the main action starts.”
The Goskino representative then explained that he was trying to give the point of view of the audience. Tarkovsky supposedly retorted: “I am only interested in the views of two people: one is called Bresson and one called Bergman.”
So you see, even a giant like Tarkovsky recognizes the importance of considering an audience. Just not the.
Brian – I very much like Fight Night – packs a punch!
Thank you. That’s a small selection of what I hope will be it’s own book.
Brian, don’t know if you saw my comment to you some time ago re your trip to NYC and desire to meet up with people – said i am unsure of my plans am a bit all over the map these days, but if you are interested, pls send a private email and if am here will see if we can sched.
HELP!!! PLEASE!!!
Yesterday, I started shooting with a Sandisk Extreme 32 gb CF card in my Canon 1Ds M II, but forgot to format it and then filled up the remaining space. So – or so I thought – I proceeded to erase images from the previous day’s take off the card but had some kind of brain fart and instead erased the last few pictures that I had taken – which included the single most important image of the day.
Once I realized what I had done, I immediately removed the disk from my camera and put no more information on it in the hope that I might recover those images. I know there is software that is supposed to allow one to make such a recovery.
Any recommendations? For Canon, Sandisk and Mac?
Sorry to intrude this way in this conversation, which I have not had a chance to follow, but it appears this thread has become the new catch-all dialogue.
Any help will be appreciated.
Frostfrog, no personal advice to offer, tho you may get answers here:
http://www.lightstalkers.org/posts/digital-image-recovery-sftware
http://www.lightstalkers.org/posts/image-rescue-help-
http://www.lightstalkers.org/posts/photo_recovery
Erica – I did see that. Wonderful. Just sent you a message.
FrostFrog – Sandisk usually includes their disc recovery program with their cards. I’ve used it several times, and it works pretty well. Good luck.
Frost Frog. You need Rescuepro. You should have a disk with the card or a link to download it. It’s worked for friends of mine who have done the same.
Frosty, don’t panic, I use Don’t Panic software with great success. http://www.imagerecall.com/
Brian
Impressive stuff, you’ve been working hard.
Thanks Gordon
MW. If you an an artist you can do what you want. If you are photojournalist surely you want to make contact with a mass audience or a least a very important but big audience. I think DAH has said that he only shoots for a handful of people, it’s not something I understand.
Michael webster. if you want a real visual treat see if you can get a copy of SOY CUBA. The story is typical soviet propoganda…but the cinematography is truly epic.
Bill. ouch! only happened once to me and the little disk that came with the card pretty much bailed me out. hope it works out for you too.
john
I’ve been thinking about how we express ourselves here in Burn and what distinquishes good blunt truthtelling from what Jenny Lynn Walker calls being a “sycophant” annd John Gladdy describes as “sugared platitudes.”
On Kerry’s essay, Bob Black recently wrote:
“I’ve been called a sap or sycophant cause of my positive support for almost all work here and i can live with whatever people think. However, what is often lost on the web is that people cower behind anonymityh and enmity.”
Yes, it seems that those of us who encourage rather than deflate others with our comments are apt to appear to be sucking up or kissing a*s. Both Bob B and I are definitely of the “encourage” school of thought, but both of us are also totally honest in our assessments of the work of our colleagues. And there have been times when we have offered critiques, though of the constructive not destructive kind.
Now, I can’t speak for Bob, but my positive outlook on life permeates everything I say and do. It is an essential part of my world view. I make no excuses for it. Over the years I have taught classes and facilitated workshops on subjects as diverse as art and troubleshooting communication issues among members of a group that must work together. In every case I have found that people learn and grow more effectively when they are encouraged to pursue what is working rather than hammering on what is not. Yes, what is not working must be openly discussed but if you stay there you run the risk of leaving the student/participant in a state of discouragement. They can easily lose confidence in themselves. Calling someone names is never helpful.
So, I hope we can be a bit more respectful of our unique ways of communicating. There is a place here for all. But please do not demean Bob B or me by implying our positive comments are made to suck up to anyone. We are simply being true to our nature.
Patricia
Thanks for the suggestions, everyone. I guess I should pay more attention to these cards and what comes with them when I first get them, instead of just throwing them into the camera and reformatting them.
I went online and found Rescuepro, apparently free with the disk but $40 for a one-year lease and Card Rescue, 39.95 for permanent ownership, so I purchased it and it is pulling photos off the disk right now. I had hoped it would only pull off the deleted ones but it is pulling everything off and it is long process- been at it for 25 minutes – 40 minutes still to go.
David Alan
“you ask if communication is the goal OR artistic expression”
Actually, I did not mean to suggest that these were mutually exlusive, and said so in the second sentence of the post you are responding to.
Re-worded, is making an accurate record of a situation the primary goal, or is the primary goal to create artistic photographs that create an impression and leave the viewer with a feeling?
As and example, two years ago, my much younger (25,years) sister got married. Not wanting to saddle me with the job, she hired a great wedding photographer from Calgary. He did a super job. Beautiful and unusaul compositions, gestures, details, etc. I took a lot of snaps too of course, and wanted her to have as complete a record of the event as possible. I photographed everything, tables full of people, the food, the toasters, lots of happy people mugging for the camera, the venue, the table decorations, the food, etc etc etc.
So Barb and Dan have two very different albums. One which is very edgy, romantic and artistic, another one which takes a much more documentary approach and is much more descriptive. They love both albums. It would be interesting to ask them in 20 years which album they’ve looked at more often, and which one has the most meaning.
Getting back to mutual exclusivity, it is obviously preferable to achieve both goals. However we cannot overlook the value and the power of the simple un-pretentious record shot. Sometimes a photograph is too much about the photographer and not enough about the subject.
Harry,of course if I am working for an editor or targeting a publication for my work, I consider, first and foremost, the audience. But ideally, I think one works for oneself and that is pretty much all I am doing right now. The Tarkovsky quote about his audience is spot on, imo. And I recently watched a documentary about Pixar in which they said the only audience they considered was themselves. Steve Jobs and Apple are another/related example of throwing audience research out the window. And I think the most successful people are like that. Get it right for yourself and if you have something worthwhile to say and are good at saying it, the audience will come.
Thanks John, I think that’s the second time you’ve mentioned Soy Cuba. I’ll definitely look it up. I practically worship Solaris, so Simon’s mention of the Tartovsky film got me all excited. It’s been a long time since I really wanted to see a movie, so I went out at lunch and bought it. Stopped off and got a bottle of wine on the way home and am about to slow things way down and enjoy (hopefully) a nice, long, visual experience.
bill $40 and 40 minutes may be a small price to pay to get that shot back..and for insurance for future shots.
mw: If you like to slow things down, and if you haven’t already seen them, be sure to watch the movies by the Taiwanese director Ming-liang Tsai. Am enjoying this discussion and thinking. Be well, all.
The way we express ourselves:
I made a comment on here that a few people believe was directed at them which was interesting because it was not directed at anyone – just a general comment. So anyone that thought the comment was directed at them may have a tendency to see criticism put out there as being leveled at them (I know I have a tendency to do this myself). I too am concerned by harsh comments attacking people directly and this I believe I have never done. If I have on this thread, please point it out to me as I would never wish to do it again. Thank you.
Now back MM:
33,500 words on here so far and what an amazing discussion it is. Wow! I feel truly honoured to be taking part in it and to be spending time with you all on here. It was a magical experience and just knowing you are all out there – I’m not sure where – reading comments, tapping at the keys, drinking your coffees, teas, getting all hot under the collar, laughing out loud, getting my goat or uplifting me with your thoughts and ideas. It IS beautiful – no doubt about it! Thank you all.
There is just so much to take in on this topic. These are some of my favourite comments:
“it is NOT just about pans and edits… but about exploring, endless, the boundaries of what stories are….” Bob
“Even if the photographer chooses to present the story from a detached point of view, she/he must be engaged with it on a deep level.” Patricia
¨For me, in all art the first thing I look for or try to get a sense of is honesty.¨ James
“A photo is one of the best ways to forward a lie, to make something from nothing into something. CNN does it all the time…” Lee
“How often do we get that story that somehow has both – a great story, brilliantly told… a good teller can have you in the palm of his her hand with just the telling!” DAH
“…there may be a long long road and a lot of bad examples of storytelling before the dust settles and the new young masters are able to rise from the abyss…” DAH
“Maybe I’m missing the point and need more coffee!” Tom
Sidney Atkins: That sory List was just great!!! And sorry to say it, I agree. All those stories “WILL have far more impact than yet another batch of images of dusty G.I.’s in Afghanistan or earthquake aftermath in Haiti.”
I checked out the Pagnetti piece and really liked that you can take or leave the multimedia – see it as a picture essay and choose your own pace to view or, just leave it on ‘play’ – most definately preferable to an mm piece I saw on the oil spill recently (also by VII). BUT, what exactly does it say? I think it says: watch a ‘slice of history’ and I don’t know why but that whole concept leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
I am interested in that old adage of ‘the medium is the message’ in as much as that it is exactly why multimedia has the potential to become hollow ‘info-tainment’, sorry to say it. A world where content has ‘no value’ offers great potential for feeding propaganda to the masses – akin to so much of programming on tv. Of course, I pray it doesn’t happen. No disrespect to the idea intended and who knows, I may not have understood it – this is my interpretation of it.
I am wondering left wondering if we are getting a little hung up on mm? I would love to hear some thoughts from younger people. Where do we find them?!!! On the plus side for mm, I did enjoy DAHs Hiphop piece on Magnum In Motion among many others (pretty amazing work on there) and I am also very impressed by the latest VII work made for MSF too ‘Starved for Attention’. Anyway, it’s time to get some zzzzzzzz….
Thanks a million! : )
Kathleen: You have so much to say (meant in a good way) and such a vibrant way of expressing yourself. If you would start a diary, I think it would be a wonderful.
Aitken: You wrote “Nature is the most beautiful thing in the world. You can show the beauty, illustrate it, but it is never the real beauty – very far from it. We don’t know how beautiful nature really is.” I so agree. It’s ravishingly beautiful and I see it in everything including people!
“our beautiful, mad, broken hope to partake of this world and to speak of that to ourselves and others until our dying breath vanquishes us in that small space inside….” Bob. Wow!
Hugs to all (and thanks for all the emotions) x
It worked. Yes, $40 is a small price to pay. Thanks again, all.
Still it is bucks less in the beer account…….
I don’t think photographers wrestle enough with the idea of what constitutes a story. A collection of images somehow related to each other, often referred to as a photo essay, might not be a story at all. In fact, it’s rare to find a photographer who works in an explicitly narrative mode, while nearly everyone who shoots seriously will describe him or herself as a storyteller.
Eugene Richards, Lauren Greenfield, and Sebastiao Salgado (just to cite three examples) are narrative photographers. They explore grand themes and characters. There is tension and conflict in the circumstances, and in a sequence of photos (or a book) the viewer gets the sense that he has traveled from one place to another. They create photos as literature.
Plenty of great photographers do not create narratives. Alex Webb does not. Constantine Manos does not (in his new book “American Color II” he writes that the subject of the photos is the photos themselves). Christopher Anderson’s highly acclaimed “Capitolio” is not narrative but impression. Antonin Kratochvil cultivates idiosyncrasy instead of story.
Henri Cartier Bresson found little narratives in each frame, some human moment, striking or gentle. But he didn’t “tell stories.” Some photographers, like David Alan Harvey, are more interested in lyricism than narration. David is more poet than storyteller.
There is the pervasive, and in my view wrong, idea that photographers have some inner vision, some “story to tell,” and thus go out into the world shooting frames to express themselves – like the old trope of the Midwestern girl with a song in her heart who tries to make it on Broadway.
It’s not “having a story to tell” that matters. There are only five stories in the world. Photography and storytelling are not synonymous; nor is photography a matter of personal expression. It’s a craft. Some people are more enthusiastic than skilled, and some are more skilled than inspired.
PRESTON,
Once again I am heartily impressed by your clear thinking, your sagacity, and the lucidity with which you express yourself. Sir, you are a gem.
There is only One story actually..
“human behavior” that is:)
Everything else is LAZY EXCUSES
If you can’t photograph your backyard for the last 30 years what makes u believe that u can photograph well somebody elses back yard on your time limited travel???
Bullcrap:)
Preston: “There are only five stories in the world.” Interesting comment. A while back it hit me that there are only ten templates in humanity’s story. We all fit into one of those templates and usually overlap into others. What are the 5 stories you mention? The ten templates I thought of were the stories of lives and ten was a number to represent a number that cannot truly be counted but to point out that stories go round and round and we all seem to bump into them at different times in our lives.
Loved your reflection Jenny on your favorite quotes; the most amazing part of it is that you supposedly are doing it on an iPhone with its tiny screen. Very good copying and pasting job.
DAH a poet instead of a story teller? Think I have to disagree on that one. He is definitely a collector of moments and an excellent editor that brings forth great stories to tell. But a poet? Humm. He is an excellent writer even if his punctuation is all …. and no capitalization.
Panos: There is only One story actually..
“human behavior” that is:)
Everything else is LAZY EXCUSES
Uh. I have to disagree; our stories are what manifest as human behavior.
Ok Lee.. Let me re-write..
Only one story then: “photographing Ourselves”…
“our point of you”…
Is where the element of “unique” hides…
Point of VIEW…
here are only five stories in the world.” there are only ten templates in humanity’s story .. this is the boring type of thinking usually reserved for those that have already made their funeral arrangements
Very good copying and pasting job. ………. now that is funny, it is like very good at walking
This is true. I agree that we can only tell a story from our point of view. However, that doesn’t mean there is only one story. Unless we take this down to the absolute point that there is no point of view but our own…
Imants, Imants. Never know when your funeral arrangements will be needed.
Never know when your funeral arrangements will be needed….hitting the anal thinking department there.
I saw some chickens hatching from their eggs a couple of days ago ………….. they looked very happy not to be in a container.
They were quite chirpy about it
I saw a baby alpaca yesterday jumping in joy an hour after his birth and he ran into a fence, the first bump of his life. Symbolic or just a baby hitting his first fence? anal thinking? No just humor. Maybe bad humor. Think I will close on this. Getting a bit out of the realm of what we have been discussing. I am still interested in the five stories so will check back in to see if Preston posts them. Good night Imants.
No placing things into boxes is important , it is the way many here cope with photography. Give something a placea neat pigeon hole and we can all live happily ever after.
No placing things into boxes is important , it is the way many here cope with photography. Give something a place in a neat pigeon hole and we can all live happily ever after…..too bad for those that think in that manner they still have a box to contend with.
“there are only five stories in the world.” there are only ten templates in humanity’s story … or only one?”
Here.
Or here.
JENNY,
If I didn’t know that you are a Photophilosopher…I would have called you out as my twin Civilian
Soul…quoting the BURNING cream…!!!
IMANTS…chickens…like my baby chickens…oime
Academians,Anarchists,Photophilosophers,gongoozlers…sensualists…etcetera………
WHAT NOT TO LOVE…
I love you ALL
the bar has been raised…can you feel it???
Your quidnunc
civi
LEE…
baby alpacas… will be there…don’t delete the evidence
FROSTFROG,
may the spirits of Photosurvival are with you…
BURN is like a box of chocolates
you never know …what you will see next…
I will be back…hmmm…
I agree that we can only tell a story from our point of view.
Sorry, I hate to be disagreeable with such fine folk, but it’s a poor storyteller that can only tell a story from his or her point of view.
Michael, what other point of view could we have than our own?
Sure, we hope we tell someone else’s story as truthfully and respectfully as possible but only the person her or himself can tell it as they see it. Whenever we put our camera to our eye we are choosing to focus on only part of what we see before us, and it is that choice that determines how the viewers of our photos will see the scene or story. It may be someone else’s story but it will always be seen through our eyes.
To claim objectivity is a myth. Every photo we take is, to some degree, a self portrait. It is the world as we see it. This can be tested by sending two photographers to the same place at the same time and ask them to document the same event. The story that each tells will be unique. Perhaps there will be some similar images but the mood and flow of the story will surely differ in subtle or not-so-subtle ways. If it looked the same then one was copying the other.
It is our unique point of view that makes photography interesting.
Patricia
henever we put our camera to our eye we are choosing to focus on only part of what we see before us, and it is that choice that determines how the viewers of our photos will see the scene or story….No the audience shall make up it’s own mind what it wants to see and interpret their own story
Well said, Imants. Each of us — photographer, subject and viewer — sees and interprets the story through the lens of their own life experience.
M certain of one thing …..there are only 2 types of cameras in this world ……… digital and film ……………….. choose one …………. or both …………..
ImantsImantsImants
thank you for you.
k/
Jenny
Re: the diary..was thinking about a journal last week..thanks for the suggestion. Might be good.
best
k
Eva; The Stanley Greene link was certainly pertinent to this topic! Her link, in case anyone missed it;
http://lens.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/07/22/shoptalk-7/
Civilian
hi, that’s all..
more another time.
be happy…
k.
Imants; and it is selectively edited through our own eyes as we shoot it.
Imants
i really meant that.
k
zzzzzzzzz
A link that is sort of related.
http://articles.latimes.com/2010/jun/27/entertainment/la-ca-doc-photos-20100627
Ross most people in industries that are dying out accept the situation and move on photographers/PJs just keep on complaining, whining and have become serial pests on the internet.
Ross….. Mr Harvey has re-trained himself into “The Photoblogging Wunderling” and gets us underlings to da all this site leg work for free as he sits in his beach house counting his money.
You know that Burn stands for Billionaire Under u’Re Nose
See what happens if you transcend photography
Oh Imants. For Heaven’s Sake. You sound so young. What have you done? What have any of us done? When you put yourself out there for dissecting by the public it brings out the worst in some and the best in others. As a student of DAH I have been on the receiving end of praise and “I hate this.” He is a true teacher and I don’t like it when he is attacked. Please stop.
Tonight I realized what a wild ride my life has been, again, and asked for forgiveness again. Between the tequila and the Richard Gere & Diana Lane movie “Unfaithful” I am a mess. But tomorrow I will flow better because I have been forgiven again and there are more photos to take. There are stories to tell, from my eye to the eye of the viewer. That is all there is, relating to others as fellow human beings, seeing their pain, their happiness, their lives, and telling a story that hopefully touches someone that changes their life. Like the movie “Unfaithful.” And yes it will be their story but through your/my eyes.
There is this weird thing happening on my island. The government has decided that stores cannot put signs out to advertise sales and help promote their business due to the “unsightliness” of them. Yet, during this election year every corner and every lot has these stupid political signs with people’s names on them that represent ineptness. Why do they get to put their signs up when a business person struggling with a down economy gets fined and has to deal with a dumb ass bureaucrat because of a “one day sale” in their window? Fuck. Tomorrow I start taking photos of this bogus crap! Yep, I think I am drunk. Pardon me. Doesn’t happen often but when it does I do it right. Only the best tequila will do for these fine moments. I may regret this post tomorrow but so what.
As a student of DAH I have been on the receiving end of praise and “I hate this.” He is a true teacher and I don’t like it when he is attacked. Please stop. ………. next time you skype him you may get a glimpse of all his elves slaving away in the background, though at the moment you are probably in the pixies and faries department.
and it is no use protecting that Harvey fellow they too will hunt you down and reposess your square foot of prime beach frontage real estate
Dude. LOL.
“next time you skype him you may get a glimpse of all his elves slaving away in the background, though at the moment you are probably in the pixies and faries department”
Aaah; so that’s how he does it. You got some magic fairy dust for me Imants? Don’t try and pass off that red Aussie dust as the real thing either! :-)
As for me? Accepting the situation and moving on as we speak!
Cheers :-)
Plenty of “bull dust” here Ross we export it along with coal dust, yellow cake you name we got it political freedom to rape the environment………. though keeping some of the gold dust.
By the way, does anybody care that we may be among the last few generations on Earth? That the way we are living on this planet is destroying the future for our kind and denying the rights to life for millions of other species at the same time? Feeling this makes it a little difficult for me to think about anything else – to look at essays that examine love and life when the truth is we are playing Mozart aboard a sinking Titanic.
Maybe I should stop creating records that say ‘goodbye beautiful world’ and ‘let’s try to live together in peace and harmony’ and start to create some stories or do something that would directly help? How can I continue to look myself in the mirror if I have not accomplished something that in some way contributes to ‘the global effort’? A part of me says ‘it is too late’, the problem is just too big: a world filled with people skipping to the tune of capitalism.
Better get back on track for the sake of the punters
so, what do you think?…… been there done that
what is most important for you as a viewer: the story or the ability to tell it ? ……….. http://www.etrouko.com.au/imantskrumins.htm
jenny. If that were indeed the case, what else would you have us do? Stand around and wring our collective hands..or live every day to the full…Life is NOT a read through.
If the plane is going to crash and I cant stop it, then I want to see the menu and the wine list NOW!!
peace
john
RE: Five stories in the world —
It’s a common theme in literary criticism that there are five, or seven, or maybe ten archetypal plots that most literature adheres to. British critic Christopher Booker wrote a book outlining his seven, which got lots of attention —
http://fiction-plots-pacing.suite101.com/article.cfm/the_seven_basic_plots
But the notion that there are a handful of ideas endlessly recycled comes out of the work of Carl Jung, Joseph Campell, and other critics and scholars of myth.
If anyone has questioned the importance/effectiveness of Kerry Payne’s project “Left Behind,” I encourage them to revisit the comments under her essay. On July 22, one of her subjects, Chris Rand-Reynolds, described his feelings about being part of this project. He says it all…
https://www.burnmagazine.org/essays/2010/07/kerry-payne-left-behind/#comment-73619
Preston :))…
can we exchange posts ;)))….that was kind of what i wanted to say, but you did it infinitely more concisely and with great elan….but….poetry is still story telling my friend just as lyricism (good call on david’s work!) is story telling too, just the narrative is of a different form…what is Celan’s work if not stories, let alone the Song of Solomon or Psalms ;)……and though there are a handful of linear narrative architectures, there is still but one story, ever (see again McCarthey or Cambell’s mentor Zimmer….even with that seemingly infinitie Indian cosmology, there was but a singular point around which the wheel spun…..
the story of color and it’s permutations is just as rich a tale as that of telling the Hero Conquest tale….the evoke the same essence: our way and orientation and reaction to this dark-wooded world…
the forms of that story or mutable….glad to see Campell come up here :))…and i highly recommend Jung’s Liber Novus…..a friend has it…it’s out of my price range, but Xmas is coming….
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/20/magazine/20jung-t.html?pagewanted=all
cheers
b
Preston: i meant your first post, where you dissected narrative…as Sydney wrote, you are a gem, polished and cleanly cut :))
cheers
b
John Gladdy: This ‘Titanic’ has begun to fill with water and will sink if nothing is done. I am just talking out loud. It is on my conscience, not yours.
Patricia: Just checked into Kerry’s essay again to read that message by Chris Rand-Reynolds. It is so inspiring to read. Thanks for alerting us!
Jenny, I just viewed your pictures but can’t see where I can comment or email so here will have to do..
They are lovely, there’s a gentleness in your observations and that really shines through in your images…you really understand colour and light and what makes an appealing picture and it’s like being transported back to the slides my grandparents took on their travels.
Just beautifully refreshing and pleasurable photographs…I hope you stay strong in your approach because it really works.
Vicky: If you are referring to me, thanks a million for for such beautiful compliments. I have a feeling you may be looking at work I put up about 8-10 years ago. I have not put much up – there is a little on Photoshelter and a lot that needs sorting out. I hope it will find its way onto a website and a book or two at some not too distant point. Anyway, thank you for the encouragement. Much appreciated! : )
Vicky: Funnily enough, it was my grandmother who got me into photography – she gave me my first camera which had been hers – and i used to sit by her side to watch her slideshow when she returned from her travels! How funny is that?!
Michael, what other point of view could we have than our own?
To answer a question with a question: what are the limits of our imaginations? The best example I can think of is Faulkner’s The Sound and the Fury. I’m currently reading Cloud Atlas by David Mitchell who also shows mastery of multiple points of view. Never thought about it in terms of other people’s photography but I regularly try to employ the technique in my own. Though I shouldn’t have said it’s a poor storyteller that can only tell stories from his or her point of view. There are plenty of examples of great first person narrative. But I think most of the greats manage to see things from a more expansive view.
Sorry to go all Monty Python on your ass Preston, you make great points and present them very well. It’s just that every time I hear the “there only x ways to do y, I think of the Spanish Inquisition. But I am aware of Jung et. al. and that kind of thinking. And I agree, there’s really only one story. Boy meets girl and falls in love or dumps her for better girl. Sorry, you see, there are only two stories: boy meets girl and falls in love or dumps her for better girl or stalks her and her friends at summer camp and murders them gruesomely. No, see, there are only four stories. All of the preceding and the narrative where the underdog overcomes great odds to win in the end and also the one where mismatched partners that somehow manage to work together and solve the crime. Aggghhhh. You see, you’re right, there are only five stories… Sorry, but with respect to all the noted academics who say otherwise, I’ll answer the question of how many stories there are with a question: What are the limits of our imaginations?
Was the question not: how many ways are there to tell the story? Instead of how many stories are there?
Regarding Tarkovsky’s Stalker, thank you Simon. It’s way too deep to say much about after one viewing. But regarding the conversation about multimedia, I found it’s just what I needed. The Wikipedia quote where it said there were only something like 140 shots in 160 minutes and that some of them lasted up to 4 minutes is no doubt accurate but gives one the wrong idea. Few, if any, of those shots are motionless. I’ve been struggling mightily with how best to move a camera around a still scene. Nice to see someone who’s mastered it. Makes me wonder how much influence Solaris has had on my subconscious. Anyway, fantastic film. Fantastic film for photographers.
if anyone wants to look at work that examines the themes that run through myths look at Mythologiques by claude levi-strauss.
299…..
300!
YES!
SPARTANS, WHAT IS YOUR PROFESSION?!
AKAKY: I really hated that movie.
AKAKY IRL: Me too.
AKAKY: A rare moment of agreement in a sea of discord.
AKAKY IRL: Don’t go all soft and fuzzy on me, guy.
Jenny, it’s not too late.
Take a look at this http://www.ted.com/talks/hans_rosling_on_global_population_growth.html
Scared the shit out of me.
AKAKIE…
300 …was reserved…for Greeks BUT you are such a IRL…
credit when credit is due…
Can I laugh my way out……….:))))))))))))))))))))))))
:)))))))))))))))
KATIE…love comes back to you …like the unexpected rain that hits my little tent…
somewhere in the Mediterranean sea…
BURNIANS…the BURNING question (TANYA wrote)…
BUT for me the BURNING question is…:
ARE You Happy with You…???
Don’t BURN le messager
BURN the story
Thanks Preston for that update. Found it very interesting. On the Red Book, not so sure I would read that one Bob.
So many gems in one place…
Aquamarines, Diamonds, Opals, Pearl, Ruby, Sapphires, Spinels, Topaz…
ok
LEE…don’t loose the alpacas
mw,
“Regarding Tarkovsky’s Stalker, thank you Simon.”
Thank you for letting me know about (Robert) Bresson-the-film-director. Have to see some of his movies to see what he’s about!
Love this:
By the way, just got back from seeing William Klein’s exhibition in the Mercati di Traiano/Museo dei Fori Imperiali in Rome. I like the way he tells stories… There is a series of vertical pictures of driver/passenger on motorini’s scooting by…excellent!
10am here..
Approaching Venice Beach…
Jim’s ghost always by my side..
Any Burnians want to meet? Come at Bistro after 4pm
Till then , shooting, reuniting with
my hommies, reconnecting..
Can u feel my excitement?
I’m nervous.. It’s been 8 months..
aitken wrote,
“A few years ago some old b/w prints turned up in a street market. They were pictures of vegetables on a white background. Anything from onions to leaks to carrots to potatoes. It turned out they were the taken by the head gardener at a country house, he just wanted to document all his produce. The extraordinary thing, they were all taken with daylight, beautifully composed (bear in mind this is in the days of glass plates) and are totally exquisite. The series of prints has been sold through Sotherby’s.
All he wanted to do was document his produce but he actually produced a beautiful story and an historical document.”
..
that story brought tears to my eyes, aitken. thank you for sharing.
i’ll bet it’s because he loved his vegetables so much
and that tender reverence came through in the photos.
i would love to see them.
i remember DAH once saying something like “Be in love w your subject”
and i am in utter agreement w that. when a photographer is in love
w subject, you can just feeeel it in the photos. Ineffably.
katia and ian – thanks for the story.. missed your original post ian.
love the idea of that – a market exists for every honest snap and anything convincingly produced will eventually find the right person to value it as much as it´s creator did.
PANOS::: GREAT STUFF::
enjoy
I can’t for the life of me remeber where I saw the story and the pictures, it might have been in the BJP or somesuch, years ago.
I remember being totally struck by the images, then I read the story… bam what a combination
Cheers
Ian
Harry: Thanks for the link – I love TED talks. His wacky presentation style was great but I question the logic behind his conclusions – beautiful though they are. I need to look deeper into how population growth falls with rising income. Interesting topic. Thanks a lot.
it’s not too late as long as it is not just talk………… I have managed to reduce my footprint another 20 odd percent. Halved my power costs despite a rise in rates this will be further reduced with the installation of a solar unit and will meet about 95% of my home power needs. Reduced my water costs with four fifths now consisting of compulsory council/govt service bills. Garbage has been reduced by atleast 75%( the bin is usually close to empty on pick up days). Recycling is down as I no longer buy heaps of packaged goods, don’t frequent takeaways, wastage is between 40-60 percent in these type of food outlets, restaurants are similar in their waste . Then again the only time I went to Maccas was to use the toilet, so no reduction there ………….dunno what the food tastes like.
Ride a electric scooter to work whenever possible, use public transport, overseas travel maximised activity wise etc. My lifestyle has not suffered. Sure I understand that not everyone is in a position to reduce their footprint to this degree but every little bit helps, so no need to despair and give up Jenny and no need to say fuckit I’ll celebrate as the ship sinks which what John implied.
Further reductions are most artwork is produced for the net, large exhibition prints, frame consumables are replaced by limited edition books and small prints. Don’t buy new cameras or computer equipment etc.
So there is no need just to talk about what we are “gunna do” just do a bit at a time
ps I grow some vegetables, bake my own bread but spend too much time on a computer, but it is work.
pss I borrowed the soap box and am passing it on……….
Ok.. Just got my first tatoo ..
Venice related ofcourse… Hmmm it’s still early..
who knows what’s next!!!????
I’m at home at last..:)
ppsss supermarket shopping is kept o a minimum farmers markets, direct warehouses etc……… clothes well recycled though few believe my wife when she says that almost all her wardrobe( yes she does buy label stuff) is from op shops
Imants: Once again, I will now put into action my legendary copy and paste skills to record those great words as they are such an inspiration. You’re covering more bases there than was suggested in a list I distributed from Greenpeace and I’m way behind. Best you keep the soap box. Thank you!
Panos: Welcome back home! Enjoy!
Talk about off topic! We are ‘on-a-different-continent’ off topic – maybe in a parallel universe. Where did DAH go? The captain of the spaceship has gone walkabout! DAH come home!
“though few believe my wife when she says that almost all her wardrobe( yes she does buy label stuff) is from op shops”
When I lived in Perth a friend of mine would always go to the charity shops in more upmarket places, because there were still people who would only wear clothes once and then take them to the op shops. Man; she got some bargains.
It’s also a case of when you have an unexpected drop in income you realise how much stuff you don’t (and never did) need!
Once again Jenny you are just a load of hot air,I am going to do crap is all you write nothing happens……….. another list how exciting it will change nothing.
7 connected multimedia stories produced by 7 photojournalists from VII for a campaign to raise attention to the global issue of malnutrition. Any thoughts?
http://www.starvedforattention.org/#/stories
Imants: Whatever you say. Would you like your words back?
0. I have managed to reduce my footprint another 20 odd percent.
0. Halved my power costs despite a rise in rates this will be further reduced with the installation of a solar unit and will meet about 95% of my home power needs.
0. Reduced my water costs with four fifths now consisting of compulsory council/govt service bills. Garbage has been reduced by atleast 75%( the bin is usually close to empty on pick up days).
0. Recycling is down as I no longer buy heaps of packaged goods, don’t frequent takeaways, wastage is between 40-60 percent in these type of food outlets, restaurants are similar in their waste . Then again the only time I went to Maccas was to use the toilet, so no reduction there….dunno what the food tastes like.
0. Ride a electric scooter to work whenever possible, use public transport, overseas travel maximised activity wise etc. My lifestyle has not suffered. Sure I understand that not everyone is in a position to reduce their footprint to this degree but every little bit helps, so no need to despair and give up Jenny and no need to say fuckit I’ll celebrate as the ship sinks which what John implied.
0. Further reductions are most artwork is produced for the net, large exhibition prints, frame consumables are replaced by limited edition books and small prints. Don’t buy new cameras or computer equipment etc.
0. So there is no need just to talk about what we are “gunna do” just do a bit at a time
0. ps I grow some vegetables, bake my own bread but spend too much time on a computer, but it is work.
0. pss I borrowed the soap box and am passing it on……….
0. ppsss supermarket shopping is kept o a minimum farmers markets, direct warehouses etc……… clothes well recycled though few believe my wife when she says that almost all her wardrobe( yes she does buy label stuff) is from op shops
Putting this up again, as it would be good to hear your thoughts…
7 connected multimedia stories produced by 7 photojournalists from the agency VII for a campaign to raise attention to the global issue of malnutrition.
http://www.starvedforattention.org/#/stories
Ross there is a great one down in God’s country, most of the clothes are the excess donated to the east Timor funds…….. http://www.etrouko.com.au/im.htm
It is a story we all can get on the net Jenny agency VII is not new to the posters here. Do something instead of showing someone else’s work as repeats
Isn’t it nice to see that I do things Jenny you just talk shit!!!
Hey Imants , they also recycle vehicles as well ?, I think that that one is a Ex Brisvegas council bus , just most of my gear comes from Op shops, found a awesome jacket , brogues amd flat cap for 25 bucks today the only new things I buy are Bonds black T’s.
-my footprint is through the roof but compensate by riding a bike I found at the dump when not carrying gear or family.
-it rains half the year , so water not an issue.
– am growing bananas
– try to get by with my rolleicord but professional circumstances demand something a bit more modern.
– my dad slaughters a bullock twice a year for us , but keeping the freezer running is expensive , plus with regular from flying foxes swingingfrom powerlines causing regular blackouts we had 12 hours to cook or give away half a beast last year.
– only wear shoes for half the year so my boots last twice as long.
Yea Glen that’s the way we gotta go everyone does their little bit in a hands on way……………
-and chickens
-and growing grapes,tomatoes,cucumbers,eggplants…
you don’t wanna see my footprint…:)))
GLENN …
where is my Prime Minister???
Put on one more piece of cloth instead of turning up your heating system. Use warm water only when really needed, and even then, keep the temperature as low as possible. Shut off all lights, even the TV standby when not used.
To pick up drinking water, wine, soap and detergents in general, milk, and in some stores fresh stuff like cheese and ham etc. bring your own package, bottles.
Imants – I also cook and eat my own roadkill!
Civi – Right here Your civilianess http://glenncampbellspictures.com/blog/
I have reduced my footprint by 50 percent … but keep falling over.
Panos! Welcome home! What tattoo did you get and where is it? Looking forward to more venice posts.
Mike.
Imants: I congratulated you on your efforts to reduce your footprint. It seems like you’ve been working hard to think of every possible way you can reduce it and that is impressive. I don’t know what exactly you feel I am not speaking straight about. Please let me know and I will do my best to explain it. Thank you.
Re: The multimedia link to ‘Starved for Attention’. We’ve seen a few links added on here to this discussion and I’ve enjoyed listening to people’s thoughts about them and contributing my own thoughts as well. The reason I put this particular link up is that the story concerns a global issue and individual stories were made in different locations around the world and then presented as a whole for a campaign. I have not seen something quite like it before myself and would be very interested to hear people’s thoughts on it.
Collect the water you wash your veggies with in a bucket and water your plants with it..
Not so sure I want to see WHERE Panos’ tattoo is.. ;))
“what is most important for you as a viewer: the story or the ability to tell it ?”
Tolstoy: http://descriptedlines.com/war-and-peace-volume-3
the wind is shifting…
that’s all I feel…
my eyes are BURNING…
it’s time to leave
the wind has shifted
the earth is BURNING
we waist our future
we lost our land
we have a footprint
we make tattoo’s
we think we are green
but…I can’t see it
I am further back…
I love you BURNIANS
you give me strength
to see the world
through different lens
you have a vision
you might succeed
is it the story???
is it the ability to tell???
I don’t really care
as long as I have you
hiii…blame the wind…
out and about
LOVE PEACE and PHOTOGRAPHY…
I don’t really care
as long as I BURN…
different closing…hiiiii…
I will be back calling out names
Glen have to swap some road kill recipes though my cooking times are based on the Subaru Brumby manifold, the troopie may take a bit less time, an overcooked skip just ain’t the same
Just spent a couple of hours looking at pictures on Burn and reading through comments….very interesting (and often amusing) reading and I barely touched the surface!
Happy saturday, chaps :)
IMANTS….
thanks for all the free legwork…every little bit helps… yup, sitting here at the beach counting my money and feeding my elves…..since that did not really take very long, i am jumping in my old fossil fuel guzzling truck (too far to take my bike but i did cancel two Euro flights reducing fuel consumption and feelings of guilt) and having a look this morn at the always complaining fishermen…those guys are worse than photographers in the shoulda been here ten years ago department….actually they may run out of fish even faster than we are going to run out of venues…hmmm, now there’s a story..
yea and no matter what the fish size it is held at arm’s length towards the camera ……..small is big, big is bigger.
IMANTS…
yes, and if you do not take a picture at all, the fish becomes even larger….
SIMON…
Tolstoy does suggest that history as it is written is certainly up for interpretation…wars are won or lost unfairly from the point of view of often millions for sure and the clear personal realities of a life lost or living in a town suddenly under a new regime suggests that interpreting history is definitely a luxury for those who are least affected….
GLENN…
sounds to me like you are definitely doing your bit….we have gotten ourselves into a bind here mate, and i have a hard time trying to imagine how we can actually go backwards in our own evolution…..i do what i can as well, and then turn right around and become the worst consumer possible…i am full of contradictions regarding the environment….not on purpose of course…it is just that my lifestyle is destructive to the environment…travel is the excess that we all justify for our own educations or communications, yet nothing burns more fuel ..at the same time , if we shut down our consumptions, the economy will put us all out there foraging…what to do??
…….ahhh another photographic career move hits the skids
DAVID,
“Tolstoy does suggest that history as it is written is certainly up for interpretation … … … interpreting history is definitely a luxury for those who are least affected….”
I agree…and:
“It is often easier to become outraged by injustice half a world away than by oppression and discrimination half a block from home.” —Carl T. Rowan
SIMON..
ahhh yes…and righteous indignation is most espoused by those most guilty …
IMANTS…
well i tried here at first to help photographers get work , but now i think it best if i do the opposite….clean em out…start over later….
Great Stuff in a Workshop by Anders Petersen, editing a story of a student.
He says the word “QUESTIONING” a lot of times. Picture that are unfinished, pictures that questions you, pictures that questions the public…ability to to do that.
Enjoy
Part I: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmbvcpDAXzQ&feature=related
Part II: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMAkoB6-IuA&feature=related
P.
DAH: Thank God you are back! We’ve been raising the bar on ‘off-topic’. Re. the environment. All that is needed is for a whole new way of thinking and operating to be taken up around the world that puts the planet and it’s protection at the center. For every country to adopt a new economic model that has already been developed – a model that means that everything we consume will be priced according to it’s impact, and of course, shifting the entire world to renewable energy… but we need to do it quite quickly obviously! ; )
ps the new way of thinking and operating is not ‘going back’ – it is going forward to a new ’21st century consciousness’.
Civi: oime!
Happy Saturday everyone! I must go out…
JENNY..
all for it….i have been an idealist all along…still have my love beads….power to the people….
Imants – Nothing pre tenderises hopping protein like the bull bar of a 100 series …yes I have upgraded …the troopie is no more…needed more doors.
A good camp oven and plenty of time are all that’s needed , just hit and quarter the roo , put the haunches and tail on the roof rack and cover with a eucalyptus bough for taste…leave sitting for at least 3 hours.
DAH – I wrestle with the same…I am a man with distance on my mind and in photography have found the perfect vehicle for covering great distances and being useful at the same time.
Speaking of roadkill, I finally got around to doing a final draft of the horse movie. Normally I’d follow Imants example and delete the thing, but for whatever reason, I’m trying to get away from that model.
If you’ve already seen it, there’s probably no reason to see it again. I bring it up again because it is relevant in the context of this conversation about multimedia. Though mostly just a series of exercises in technique, there is a story and it’s structure is consistent with the things I’ve been talking about in relation to “Invisible” and storytelling in general. The changes in this version are very minor. The struggle has been how to smooth out the pans and zooms. The camera movement is still not exactly where I’d like it to be, but time to move on. Bigger fish to fry, so to speak.
Grasping the concept of time has been very difficult for me in the context of multimedia presentations. I’ve spent many hours trying to figure out how to slow the camera down appropriately. Of course the answer is obvious. Just stretch out the time between keyframes. There’s nothing you can do with the curve to make two seconds last longer than two seconds. Damn thing needs to be 10 seconds. But then we run into questions of aesthetics. Of attention span. Modern audiences want their motion fast. Historically, still photography, by definition, is motionless. Where is the happy medium? What works without turning still photography into something else entirely? Without turning it into video?
It’s in that context that I was re-acquainted with the work of Andrei Tarkovsky, the Russian film director most widely known for Solaris. Like with the time thing, I’ve been kind of slow on the uptake for influences as well. But in retrospect, it’s obvious that I should look to the work of filmmakers who have mastered the art of slow camera movement. In that respect. Tarkovsky’s Stalker is unquestionably a masterpiece.
For an interesting contrast, I watched Avatar the day after watching Stalker. The most popular movie in history after one that very few people have ever seen. I’m not going to go into it here, but it’s interesting to compare and contrast the different storytelling strategies — the popular vs. the high art — and try to understand the appeal, albeit to different folk, of them both.
As for footprints, I have the same problem as Mike R. Although I think it’s useful to conserve energy in order to blunt any charges of hypocrisy when we advocate for change, but in reality the only way we can possibly make a difference is to work for widespread education and democracy. Cause as long most people don’t vote and all too many who do equate science with belief, our fate will remain in the hands of corporate and military sociopaths. Whether we drive to work, swim, or take a jumbo jet, our individual energy usage doesn’t amount to a hill of beans in the big picture and even if it did, voluntary reduction by isolated individuals just doesn’t matter when it comes to saving the earth. Nope, collective action is what’s needed and that’s what’s being ever more effectively disallowed.
mn: I hope you also compared and contrasted the actual stories or ‘story concepts’ in the two movies vis-a-vis what was happening in the world at the time they were released – it could be that the ‘telling’ was not as important a factor in their appeal as the timing of the specific story to hit the screen. ; )
Of course a change in individual energy usage makes a difference when you are talking about several hundred million or even billions of people but the situation obviously requires both – both individual and collective action.
Anyway, the fact is that environmental economics is now being discussed at the highest levels and even this week the heads of 10 nations got together in Washington to discuss the shift to renewable energy after the second big oil spill. Nobody had heard about climate change when I left college, now everyone has and at least it’s being discussed. It is coming, just at the pace of a snail…
DAH: You don’t sound too convinced. It seems to me that nothing is ever perfect or ideal but I guess we should not give up believing in it or trying to create it.
i’d like a solar-powered jet pack so I can fly – and migrate each year like birds do.
I have Venice updates… Photos.. Story..
But my laptop is in the emergency room..
It had a stroke and now recovering in Ryans hospital…
Question to All…!!
Should I follow Antons lulu example and print a
Magazine? On demand? Let’s say twice a year print?
Update every six months? Or just post links here??
Hmmm thinking, thinking!!!!
Hmmm… I think “both” is the answer…:)
it could be that the ‘telling’ was not as important a factor in their appeal as the timing of the specific story to hit the screen.
Nah. Humans haven’t changed in 30 years. We still react to the same storytelling techniques in the same ways. The same contrast of approaches has been evident for as long as there’s been literature, and certainly as long as there’s been science fiction. Space opera, you know, vs. the the visionary think piece. The war movie vs the movie about war. The former manipulate our emotions in such a way as to make us feel secure in or moral universe, the latter to question it. The resulting gulf in popularity is not surprising. What I find interesting is how images are used to achieve those ends. And more to the point, in my tiny world these days, camera movement and editing.
Hmmm… I think “both” is the answer
Yea maybe, but why not consider making a beautiful hi-res DVD or Blu-Ray and target people with giant flat screen tv’s? Something like that costs much less to produce — in both time and money — and the potential market is much, much larger. Get a prestigious gallery show and maybe get your agency to feature some of the work so you’ll have a nice blurb or two for the advertising?
JENNY…
you wrote : “DAH , you do not sound too convinced”….hmmm, i wrote that i have had the same philosophy my whole adult life on the environment…so, exactly how could i possibly sound any more “convinced” ??
You gotta love Ozzies:
“Nothing pre tenderises hopping protein like the bull bar of a 100 series…”
Glenn, since we’re swapping roadkill stories, back in the early 70’s I worked for an old Idaho pioneer who had an organic orchard and garden, a chicken hatchery, a butchering business, and a taxidermy shop… yup, old Carl could do it all (although, having worked once in the American Museum of Natural History in New York, I gotta say his taxidermy was not what I would call “museum quality”… still, the local hunters liked it)… I did all kinds of odd jobs for Carl and lived for free in an old trailer in the orchard, but mostly I helped with the butchering of fowl… chooks, ducks, geese, turkeys… and then hunters brought us game in the fall to be skinned, butchered up into freezer packages, and have the hides tanned… bears, deer, elk, the occasional moose or cariboo. Often as not, we were paid in meat and hides rather than cash. But the best part was an arrangement we had with the state Fish and Game dept. and the state prison system. In Idaho, all roadkill legally belongs to the state, and if the Fish and Game guy could get there while it was still fresh enough, he always brought it to us. We kept the hide and half the meat… the other half was used to feed prisoners in jail. For the two years or so I lived and worked for Carl, I never bought meat or eggs, rarely bought vegetables or fruit… after you’ve lived off wild game for a while, store-bought beef tastes gross, greasy, and rancid. Venison is good, cariboo is good, bear meat is very, very rich and a little goes a long way, but the finest wild meat I’ve ever eaten is elk… it is lean, tender, the flavor is delicate, it is full of vitamins, you can do anything with it that a French chef can do with beef and it will taste better. I was fed roo meat several times in Oz in the 90s, gotta say I wasn’t too impressed. But maybe it wasn’t pre-tenderized properly??
Michael W.. Thank u.. Great idea:?
And don’t forget the IPad. People probably dyin to buy content for those suckers.
Panos, I’d go for download for a fee. You have minimum outlay, no discs to burn, no paper to print. Good for you and your footprint. How’s the tattoo?
Mike.
Hi guys, I guess, you will find it interesting to read: http://lens.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/07/22/shoptalk-7/
DAH: It was not a comment on what you said about the environment! It was acknowledging that you probably also feel that things are moving way too slowly – you were just sounding pragmatic back there. Sorry for any confusion! You mentioned ideals – we so need them – they are the only thing that can remain constant and true in this world it seems to me and it’s so easy to become cynical.
So here’s one re. animals – that we should treat them with as much gentleness, kindness and respect is possible. I am a little disturbed by these comments on road kills that I’m reading. Do you think it would be more or less painful than being killed in a commercial abbatoir to be hit by a car? I’m not sure but I bet many, many animals die a very painful death being hit by vehicles and as they have feelings and nerve endings throughout their bodies just as we do, to laugh about them being hit on the road seems exceptionally cruel.
And it brings to mind, the respect that I saw last year when I attended Gadhimai Mela (the world’s largest animal sacrifice). Contrary to international news coverage, it was not conducted in a blood-thirsty way at all. There were 1-4 million witnesses to make sure it was done correctly and I was standing right next to the head priest in the temple for the first of the temple rituals. In fact, the killing is conducted with a single blow with a knife that severs the head from the body in one go (de-capitation). I only saw it performed on about 20 animals which was enough to get the picture – and I know it was then conducted on several thousand. It was certainly no less humane than anything I have seen in images of abbatoirs – the difference only being the number in one location. But then if we were able to see all the animals around the world on any single day in one place, imagine how much blood and gore there would be. The cruelty must have been in the transportation of may of them long-distance which, like commercial abbatoirs, attenedees at the festival did not get to see.
That last but one sentence came out wrong…
If we were able to see ALL the animals around the world being slaughtered in one place on any day, imagine how much blood and gore there would be. In fact, if we were to see ALL the animals in any one country being slaughtered in one place on any one day, it would be absolutely horrific.
This is not a nice topic for a Saturday!
DAH: I sent you an email.
MikeR:))
I will send u tatoo photo once my laptop comes out of the ER..
But I dig your idea:)..downloads…hmmm
Big hug
iPad…. Yes, don’t forget Big screens and iPad’s.. gotcha..:)
“… but the finest wild meat I’ve ever eaten is elk …”
Without a doubt Sidney, without a doubt. God bless my neighbors.
I would suggest wild boar prepared by my father..;)
Since we’re taking a break from story telling and delving into animals and
abbatoir…
Squirrels make havoc on my electric wiring, chipmunks undermine my land
and snakes enter my basement to shed their skins. I’ve talk with all
of them about this and the squirrells say no sweat, I’m faster than you.
The chipmunks don’t give a shit and the snakes are gone before we can
work things out.
Man/woman have always been at odds with nature… it’s natural. Squirrel
tail fur is great for tying flies.
The ability to tell is in our hearts, we just have to connect it with our
shutter-finger.
Love, Cheers and Rock n’ Roll
DAH, I found your brief comment on the fishermen in the OBX hitting close to home. As you know I have been photographing the Watermen up here in Maryland for the last few months, without a doubt the most common quote I hear is “back in the day”. I usually hear that comment within just a few minuets of meeting a Watermen, and I think it has as much do do with their fading lifestyle as it has to their dwindling catches. I here that phrase so often it is one of the names I am kicking around for my Watermen project.
Kurt
Imants; Plenty of pesky possums flattened on the road out here if you want one. Kill a possum save a tree!
The thing in NZ is that we have to air drop 1080 poison into the forest to save it from the possums. Environmentalists complain we shouldn’t because it is “not humane”, yet most environmentalists here won’t get off their organic arses to go and knock a few possums off! Complain and do nothing… Oh well; their status quo persists…
And each night the possums consume another 21,000 tonnes of vegetation (300 g wet weight per possum x 70 million possums). Each possum killed saves 109.5kgs of vegetation annually.
Swerve the car to miss a possum? Not likely!
eeks..dropping in, drooping at the subject matter…dropping back out..
night all..
:)
We seem to have gone from saving the planet to eating it!
Back to the post: I’d rather see a brilliant story wonderfully told but the story, the content comes first. The term Primitive Artist comes to mind.
Mike.
pomara: You wrote: ‘man has always been at odds with nature’. I disagree. Man is simply forgotten that he/she is an animal and I cannot really see why we should have any more rights than a chipmonk! ; ) They have as much right to be here as we do. Unfortunately, not only are their habitats under threat around the world by the activities of what is widely said to be ‘the most intelligent’ of the animals (the only one that can speak incidentally) but there is nothing any other animal can do to stop it. And they can’t even complain when, for example, someone comes in with a digger and destroys their house. Not even having the courtesy to tell them in advance or help them re-locate. Who was on that land you live on first – you or the chipmonk?!
“What is most important for you as a viewer: the story or the ability to tell it?” That is what DAH asked… are we getting any closer to answering it?
There are no “real” or “important” stories..
It’s all in the mind!
It’s all in the mind of the story teller..
It’s all in our imagination..
Nothing is real..
It’s all a reflection of our perception..
Therefore the question is with no answer..
Even Bob Dylan the greatest “protest songwriter”
openly admitted that he was never a “protest” singer..
I totally believe him.. but most of his “followers”
There are no “real” or “important” stories..
It’s all in the mind!
It’s all in the mind of the story teller..
It’s all in our imagination..
Nothing is real..
It’s all a reflection of our perception..
Therefore the question is with no answer..
Even Bob Dylan the greatest “protest songwriter”
openly admitted that he was never a “protest” singer..
I totally believe him.. but most of his “followers” disagree..
That’s a Paradox! But it proves that “reality and objectivity”
exist only in the courtrooms and not in everyday life..
Anybody take a look @ the VII stories on malnutrition?
Should humans eat animals?
Well put it this way..
Have u ever watched a NatGeo documentary about lions?
When I was a kid I was always thinking:
Why on earth the photographer doesn’t do
anything to save the poor gazelle from the lion’s teeth..???
Why the lions are not vegetarians?
Why so much “violence”..??
Why animals are so brutal and violent???
Panos: Are you sure that wasn’t just because Bob Dylan didn’t want to be categorized? Did he share any thoughts on something else he was happy being seen as other than a ‘protest’ singer?
Panos: That is not a very good argument against the most intelligent animal – the one with the ability to think, the one with a conscience, the one with the ability to control their thoughts, actions and behaviours – should not refrain from eating other animals. I didn’t see anyone saying we shouldn’t eat meat on here though – not yet anyway.
Hi to Venice B!
Am I confusing anyone?
Who sets the “rules”..
Is it right? Is it wrong?
Is there god? Afterlife?
Who are right? The Marines? Or the Taliban?
Is eating meat a crime?
Is there a religion out there more righteous than the other?
Who can define/DECIDE which “story” is important and which story is not?
the newspaper guy?you? Me? The propaganda guy?
“There are no “real” or “important” stories,” Panos writes… hmmmmmm? Maybe if we answer this question first – whether or not there are ‘important stories’ – it will help answer the bigger question that DAH has put to us?
I therefore believe in the STORYTELLER only..
Funny thing is that I don’t believe or care about his/her stories..
Take Venice beach for example.. If anyone sees my Venice story
through my photos.. Do u think they can get the “idea”??
Is Venice really represented “truthfully” through my “objective eyes”??? Is Cuba what DAH recorded or felt or seen??
I bet u that if most people visit Venice tomorrow they will be
somehow disappointed.. Coz this “Venice” exists only in my head..
This is “my” Venice.. That was DAH’s Cuba etc..
Nothing more than perceptions.. Fragments of our imagination..
DAH: You mentioned you cancelled two tickets to Europe? Why did you do that? Is that because you are too busy? Is everything okay?
Fragments of our imagination? Well I think the story of Venice Beach would have looked very different if you sent two people out – one free to document everything that happens on the beach, the other locked away a very dark cupboard (let’s say in a restaurant on the beach) as a for instance. One would be filled with all the activity on the beach, the other just black frames. Is what is recorded simply imagination?
i have seen your story by the way an i know there is a lot more to it but just interested in this idea of what is recorded being ‘imagination’…
A story is nothing without the ability to tell it. People would get it wrong, they would even misuse it.
It has to be personal and objective in the same way – to tell it like it is.
I always suspect folks that want to save the world..
Christian missionaries..
Went to Africa , saved them from cannibalism..
Saved the world from their SINS..
they were on a mission..
Trying to stop the wars, preaching.. Tame the beast..
Civilize the uncivilized..
Oh please …
Humans now are so civilized..
They do yoga and become vegans..
I’m so tired of the hypocrisy of modern photojournalists..
They travel around to “save China” or “stop the War”..
Hmmm yeah right..
The only thing that I believe that separate humans from animals
Is the ability to crate ART..
nothing else.
I need GOOD ART.. I don’t need a good story..
A good STORYTELLER SHOULD BE ABLE TO CONVINCE ME
THAT he/she got a great story..
Gimme Art.. I don’t need morality..
I don’t believe in good causes and great intentions..
Be honest, gimme Art..
That’s the only thing a human
can produce..
CAVEN were honest .. Their art was pure..
David’s ‘Cuba’ and your ‘Venice Beach’ certainly comprise ‘fragments’ that is for sure – fragments of the whole of reality – moments plucked out from the march of the moment onward, and you did not only select the ‘moment’ you wanted to record, but where you were when you recorded it, and how you chose to record it. So yes, the result is totally a reflection of ‘you’ and your choices of which fragments of the whole of reality and its movement through time that you capture when you press the shutter release.
on the other hand, we have to question whether we have ‘free choice’. i do not believe that i freely decide where i am in any moment. ; )
Oh.. One more thing is as important as ART.. and that is philosophy..
The rest ( righteous , saving the world stuff ) is propaganda and fear.. Fear and disability of understanding human nature…
“I’m your friend until I get hungry”
That’s something we always forget..:)
I meant CAVEMEN..
Panos: I think what we ALL need is LIFE. And that is increasingly under threat unfortunately – life on Earth in the future. Who will there be to appreciate ‘art’ when the planet is a lifeless dustbowl?
and when artists are no more?
Remember the painter BASQUIAT..
remember Andy Warhol ..
Think of Lou Reed’s song Heroin..
Think of Leonard Cohen..
They were the Greatest Storytellers..
As Trent Parke or DAH or Jules Vern..
If you (any you) are not able to be Nietzsche
then you better be Picasso or Parke..
Coz if you are just a McCurry or Koudelka then
Sorry.. That’s not enough for me..
I need imagination, not preaching!
( I can call Jesus if I
need to be saved..
okay. Heres a little excercise to get us back on track.
Go back to kerry’s essay and just LISTEN to it…no visuals at all. how did you experience that?
Now just watch the visuals with NO SOUND…..how did that work? (even knowing, because you cant un-know, that it has an accompanying audio track)
finally watch the whole thing again.
what conclusions do you reach about this piece?
FOR ME:
AUDIO ONLY Truncated, the audio testimonials are very powerful, the story is imediately apparent and moving.
it has the ability to stand alone as a document. I felt empathy towards the people I was hearing, even not knowing anything much about them.
STILLS ONLY SUBTITLES REMOVED
odd disjointed imagery, some with hints of distress, but mainly vague. No idea what they are trying to say. Treatment of images somewhat bland.(a very ordinary digital greyscale) overall no feelings of connection or puzzlement..no curiosity aroused. presented this way I would not have a second look, or wish to view them as a book or prints.
WHOLE PIECE
The story is made apparent. The subtitles provide information to back up the testimonials, and the pictures put faces to voices. The subtitles have added a documentary layer to the piece and told me this is a STORY, by adding context and fact. But I am less moved than when I could just hear it.
CONCLUSION
The audio tells me that the story is very emotive, and i feel that. The subtitles add to the narrative and provide additional information on statistics etc.. The pictures, although ‘fitting’ the story, do nothing for me in increasing its power; in fact they dilute it. They are most definately the weak point.
as they lean on the other elements in the presentation to prop them up.
Which gets us back to ‘the story or the telling?’
The story here is obviously important. it is an important story.
but the telling of the story does not do the story itself full justice, and so loses impact through that. In this case, I believe, all the elements need to fully compliment each other and be on a par, quality wise, otherwise the ‘story’ is made less.
So in this instance the ‘stroytelling’ was the important thing to get right as the ‘story’ itself is solid.
Agree, disagree?
peace
john
John: Agree 100%
Your diagnosis is close to my original comment. I think the audio would make an excellent piece for radio. It would be exceptionally valuable, could potentially be translated into other languages as well and distributed widely. This is a very important story and one that can be extremely helpful to others. Alternatively, more powerful imagery needed and work on sequencing which will no doubt come as this is a work in progress… this would have the possibility of using the medium to its greatest potential and fulfilling the idea of the story to its greatest potential. That’s my 2c…
John…
Very interesting..
But u know my answer…
I’d rather have a great Storyteller talking to me about a mundane subject(story),
Than Zoriah telling( with photos) me about the importance of tuberculosis in Namimbia..
no, i did not mean ‘alternatively’, i meant ‘in addition’… more powerful/emotional/narrative imagery needed etc…
Panos: So would I. And while I am listening and enjoying the story, many people are at the same time dying of tuburculosis. So long as we are all aware of this.
Panos. I dont think its an either or deal. I think it is dependent on the ‘story’ to be told, as much as it is about the ‘storytelling’. Each one has many cases where one would take precedent over the other.
In this case, I believe the ‘story’ needed no validation, but the telling of it needed to be strong right across the board(or perhaps a different type of approach).
john
Panos: by the way, why the either/or? we need both don’t we? i think both are equally important. i believe the purpose of our existence is to create and that as life is so precious that we must celebrate it! but at the same time, there are those that are not in a position to do that and need all the help they can get. is that okay?
Again.. I don’t care if it’s TB or a lovestory..
I just need someone to tell it “right”..
I care about the MESSENGER not the MESSAGE.
otherwise I would newspapers or TIME mag..
But I chose BURN instead..
Why? Coz I care to see and breath Art..
And the best artists are “here”.. Not in NY times nor LA times nor NatGeo..
Burn is the official home of Artists
when it comes to photography..
Big hug
2:35am here
Gotta sleep
i love it ALL and what is stopping us from doing both?
John, This sort of multi media IS illustrated radio. The audio is more important than anything else. Obviously you want every thing to be good but the best pictures will not carry bad sound.
DAH: Power to the people! Hope you’re having a good Sunday!
About this whole multimedia phenomenon, we got to evolve along with it, but we must not forget our main purpose as photographers. Music and text are great ways to enhance stories and create more compelling visual experiences. Multimedia is definitely opening new roads, but the photography should be telling a powerful story by itself, it must create the impact that is going to be remembered long after the presentation. The image should never lose its power to the text or the music (something very difficult to accomplish, in my opinion).
In this aspect I think the multimedia essay by Dhiraj Singh, “My name is Dechen”, is an example of a multimedia presentation that creates a perfect balance between the powerful impact of the images, the music and the text. They enhance each other perfectly well and tell with ability a very powerful story which creates an imapct in all of its levels.
About Anthony RZ’s statement on the importance of ability, I totally agree with him. We all have interesting stories to tell, but without the ability to tell them, it becomes extremely difficult to create an authentic interest than transaltes into an impact on the viewer. It is like charisma on a public speaker: everything.
Ledenav makes an important point. People shouldn’t think of multimedia as something they need to do because it’s the next big thing. People should think about how they want to best present their work and then use multimedia options if necessary to realize that vision. You can have multimedia with no still photography at all. So as still photographers we need to figure out how to use multimedia to enhance our still photography. Not turn it into broadcast tv, or even motion pictures (though a little motion can, I think, be a good thing).
In this case, I believe, all the elements need to fully compliment each other and be on a par, quality wise…>
I like your approach to critiquing multimedia and agree with what you write about essays like Kerry’s (if not Kerry’s itself), in which the different multimedia elements are balanced. But in many other cases, and I think this is important for still photographers, the elements are not, nor should they be balanced. The audio and motion pictures serve as complimentary elements, not equal. In those cases, the complimentary elements need to be of adequate quality to enhance — definitely not detract from — the main element, but they do not need to stand on their own.
JOHN GLADDY…
i do agree with you that the actual photography is the weakest part of this essay….take the pictures out of this context and you would not know what you were seeing or what to think…i also think this brings up a tough nut to crack and almost another whole thread…that is: what do photographers do when faced with illustrating a text? which is basically the self assignment given here…Kerry was almost literally trying to make pictures to go with a text (in this case a voice over) or concept…she was faced with trying to make portraits of those left behind long after they were left behind…the photographs were of people not directly part of an action or moment in time that could possibly be directly related to the story being told…this happens everyday to newspaper and magazine photographers who are given assignments to photograph important people who are part of a great “word story”, but there is no way to show in pictures exactly the emotion garnered by the text…so actually Kerry did not do a bad job of portraiture, she was simply up against the almost impossible task of creating retro emotion if there is such a term….this is a very different “assignment” than one involving direct action…i.e. war breaks out in Iraq and photographer shows dead bodies in the street from a bomb dropped that morning….context is everything….i.e. photographs of celebrities are only “good” if we know who it is being photographed…..i.e. is Annie L really a great photographer or are we mesmerized by the “who” in her pictures….it is the same conundrum that Kerry has here and the problem with 90% of all media photography……all of us need to know “who” these people are and their circumstance before any value can be attached to them…it is the marriage of words (or voice , or music) and pictures that makes the story complete…i think Kerry knows this and knew it when she took it on as an essay…i do not think she ever saw these photographs as art for the wall in someone’s home….nor as stand alone imagery at all…for her i think it was always the whole package…not to be separated out…..and with a life catharsis perhaps as the most important aspect and hopefully touching a few of us along the way…
cheers, david
Note to admins, if you want to fix my italics tags above, feel free, and while you’re at it, by “right” I mean “write”, right?
MW…
fixed the “write” right but did not know how to right the right ital button and make it all right so whatever you wrote would be right
DAVID,
This is helpful perspective on Kerry’s essay. There are stories that are very difficult to photograph and for these indeed, words, voices can matter even more than the photographs themselves. Kerry was up to a tough challenge here… While different, it reminds me a bit of the challenge that Eugene Richards faced when he decided to photograph families of soldiers who were wounded in Irak… If I recall, this project was called “war is personal”… I am a big fan of Eugene and his “Cocain” book is one of the very best, but somehow, some of the photographs of that project were of course moving but all in all, I felt the work was not as stellar… out of context, the work on these families touched by this drama back home in their normal everyday environment was not “photographically” as interesting….yet, I was fortunate with many others to listen to the stories of these families and soldiers told by Eugene and his wife in Charlottesville and then it touched me deeply to listen to the words,…it did become personal at that stage… I think Kerry’s essay is in the same vein…Photographically I have seen more interesting work for sure, yet emotionaly, it is still a moving piece of work. I hardly know Kerry but when I first saw it, was late at night one day back from vacations and especially when Kerry spoke at the very end I had tears in my eyes….
Eric
This is one photo to which I’ve applied some multimedia technique. I made it this morning to kind of illustrate what I was talking about above. I throw it out there in case anyone is interested in discussing these kinds of nuts and bolts questions concerning storytelling with multimedia.
Basically what’s going on is that I’m using camera movements to direct the viewers attention to different parts of the photo in a linear fashion, thus revealing the story a piece at a time and developing some dramatic tension, as is done in books and movies.
The story told by the still photo itself, on the other hand, is in no way linear. It’s presented as a totality and the viewer is left to his or her own devices to figure out what story it tells, if any.
So does this method make the still photo something else entirely, or does it retain its still-photoness and possibly enhance it for at least some potential viewers?
I’m not sure, though I lean towards hating it. To give you an example of one possible critique, I’ll paraphrase Tarkovsky:
Trying to adapt the features of other art forms to the still photo will always deprive the still photo of what is distinctively photography, and make it harder to handle the material in a way that makes use of the powerful resources of still photography as an art in its own right. But above all such a procedure sets up a barrier between the author of the photo and life. Methods established by the newer art forms interpose themselves. It specifically prevents life from being recreated in the still photo as a person feels it and sees it, in other words, authentically.
Or does it just depend on the creator and his or her artistic integrity? On why someone would choose a particular method much more than the method itself?
My problem with it is I don’t like being told how to look…just give me the whole picture and let me decide how to view it and decide which parts warrant my attention…I just found the camera movements annoying and somewhat patronizing even though that obviously wasn’t your intended response.
And I’m not sure what the purpose of sound was in this, it didn’t tell us anything more than the picture….maybe it was just too obvious for me.
Interesting experiment though.
DAVID, your analysis was spot on — thank you.
Is there a rule on captioning for a piece like this one? For example, some of the images in this essay take on a different level of meaning when you know what they represent —
The image of the choppy water in Chris Reynold’s piece is the lake where they spread his fathers ashes, — Chris was angry because it was such a beautiful send off and he felt his father did not deserve it. The image with STOP is the car park where his brother took his life. The cardboard box behind Chris in his car has his brothers blood on it and he keeps it because it makes him feel closer to him, etc. You can see more of the captions in the Left Behind album here:
http://www.facebook.com/kerrypayne.photo
I’m not sure how to tell that through the use of images alone… or even if it’s necessary to? I have all of this in audio, so perhaps I need to keep shooting and create a series of smaller pieces that go into more detail for each person. Or is it ok to rely on captioning for some explanation?
This week I’ve received dozens of notes from people who this essay is touching, so I am especially grateful to everybody here for your considered feedback and suggestions on how to make it stronger.
Yesterday I received an email from a woman who said she had seriously considered suicide many times recently, but after watching this and seeing the pain it causes she knows now she never would. I’ve never been more motivated in my life to create something of worth.
Kerry what a wonderful thing you’ve done.
all:
just a quick note as i’m returning from a trip and now running out for another….and wrote enough under Kerry’s essay and this thread, but i just want to iterate that this entire question about, quoting Leadav’s allusion to Anthony RZ with regard to ability ” ..totally agree with him. We all have interesting stories to tell, but without the ability to tell them, it becomes extremely difficult to create an authentic interest than transaltes into an impact on the viewer…”
i’d just like to remind folk, again, that the interpretation and reaction to ‘ability to tell them..’ is an entirely subjective and personal (the reader’s) reaction….this is not a standard with any universality, even when we discuss (as it should) photography as a craft, that craft and it’s effect on an audience differs wildly from viewer to viewer…..tarkovsky’s films, since he keeps coming up, were seen as headache inducing, addling tomes of illogical and ponderous nonsense by the many of the soviet filmgoing (see his words in Sculpting in Time, a book by the way, i think Michael you would enjoy, and is diaries, which i do not believe are still in print in translation)…..Tarkosky (a personal hero of mine as well) also could be incredibly conservative and restrictive about what constitutes art and film….just as late tolstoy’s ‘what is art’ is one of the most frustrating i’ve even nearly choked on (and i love tolstoy)…..
by the way, for me, Solaris IS the movie Inception is trying to be….and while i like Zona (Stalker in English), Zerkalo (the mirror) is THE movie that applies best to multimedia….i’m not sure i agree at all with what tarkovsky had to say about photography, actually, or even poetry….but it doesn’t matter at all what his ideas were (some of which i agree with, many of which i do not), the fact is that in the end, the created 7 of the greatest works of art i know on the spiritual story of living and dying and struggling with all of what that means that i know….and it’s short film violin and steamroller aint half bad too ;))
in order to understand craft and to attempt to critique craft, regardless of the deconstructionists felt, i do think it is important to see what the work itself to the creator, what it’s essential aim was, and as i wrote under Kerry’s essay, the photos themselves (at least before the last chapter about kerry) were more akin to visual acts of witness, as markers that grounded (for good or ill to the viewer’s aesthetic discernment) the narrative of the families’ who were speaking of their loss…so that the sound track and testimony was not disembodied, but extant……
sometimes, like music in film, photos and/or text can be contrapuntal, sometimes replicating, sometimes disconnected….i think looking at the work for it’s aeshetic payoff (at least the beginning) is misreading the piece….
but, hey, that’s only me ;))…
cheers
literally running off for the day with mrs. black…
b
Kerry: All the little details you just explained are vital to the viewers’ understanding of the photographs so there needs to be a way to incorporate them. How about having a slideshow in parallel with the multimedia piece or to construct the whole in such a way that there is an option to look at the images without the audio? It would give the potential to engage viewers more deeply in the images without the sound afterwards – to look at them at their own pace and read the captions. This was done with the Pagetti piece we discussed earlier on this thread.
Can I say you are BURNING my BURNIANS…!!!
whatever works for you…it will show best in your work…
keep evolving…keep rolling…
if you own it…then we will believe you …
if you put your soul out there …then this energy will come back to you…
even the sky is not the limit…
what are you afraid of…???
you are not civilians afterall…:)))
LOVE to ALL
JENNY…oime for sure…
Tonight I will drink to our BURNIAN ladies…
is that ok with you mates???:)))
VIVA!!!
DAH, interesting points on Kerry’s work and on word stories in general.
Kerry, thank you for the extra caption information it really makes a difference to reading the photographs. One way of imparting the information to the viewer would be to keep the multimedia piece and then show each photograph again: briefly; with the caption information displayed either underneath or superimposed on the photographs. Something along those lines, I’m thinking here of how some photographic books have thumbnails at the end of the book with descriptive captions.
Mike.
I’m not a big watcher of YouTube but remember seeing on TV news the couple who performed the “I’ve had the time of my life” song from the film Dirty Dancing at their wedding, and posted the video to great acclaim. An excellent example of how the story, the content, is most important.
Mike.
Bob I agree..
About Kerry’s essay, removing the sound theory etc?
Well imagine the movie “The Wall” by Pink Floyd with the sound off or removed!!! Would it make any sense?
Panos. first if you read roger waters you willl find out what he thinks of the film of the wall. It was after all originally conceived as a stage piece, a theatrical set to accompany the music.
Second . The film is an interpretation of a concept piece and as such I would be suprised if it made much sense without the thing that gives it its reason to be….saying that however the cinematography is really very good and there are some lovely lit scenes throughout.
John , yeah ok.. makes sense…:)
Hi everyone. About ability to tell… last year at the VISA in Perpignan, a french photographer, Samuel Bollendorf, present a “web documentary”.
The presentation was really great.
He spoke mainly about the great stuff about multimedia, technology, sound, and editing with computer, that nowadays it is important to become ACTIVE and not anymore PASSIVE looking at pictures/stories.
For whose that were born in early ’80, this reminds me a awesome PC game: Monkey Island!! You’re ACTIVE in the story.
If you have at least ten minutes, below is the link (in french as well as English). The story is about obesity in America and France.
Enjoy, Patricio
http://www.honkytonk.fr/index.php/thebigissue/
“Oh.. One more thing is as important as ART.. and that is philosophy..
The rest ( righteous , saving the world stuff ) is propaganda and fear”
Philosophy is propaganda
art is propaganda
photography is propaganda
life is propaganda
life is propaganda of art, photography and philosophy
any words are propaganda
Storytelling ability versus the story?
I suppose the ability to tell a “seemingly” mundane story sorts the (photography) wheat from the chaff. We tend to forget how many writers are able to tell a spellbinding story about everyday events, why shouldn’t photographers be able to do the same?
That’s probably why so many photographers seek out the exotic, the dirty, the marginal; it makes the storytelling easier because those aspects can help “pad out” the visuals. Maybe they make up (a bit, or a lot!), for the photographer’s limited ability to story-tell?
Hey Bob, I too would love to discuss Tarkovsky more, and will as time goes by. I picked up “Sculpting” yesterday, btw. I’ve always been attracted to that kind of absolutism in regard to artistic integrity schtick. Fall into that trap myself, though with significantly less notable results. It’s strange. Normally when I find an artist I care about I ingest all of his or her work as rapidly as possible, but as I mentioned, I practically worshiped “Solaris” yet never sought out anything else by Tarkovsky. That’s probably for the best because I don’t think I was ready for it then and now it’s exactly what I need. I’d really like to talk about “Stalker,” but it’s way too deep to approach haphazardly. Anyway, it’s unfortunate I never made a note of your email address because I probably should not cop to this publicly, but I think you’ll find it interesting, particularly if you’ve read Paul Auster (and what haven’t you read?). This is a book review of “New York Stories” I wrote many, many years ago during the time I was obsessively watching “Solaris,” which plays a prominent role in the review. Funny how the photo I used to illustrate it is so Tarkovskyan, eh.
Oh, and Marcin, Art is not propaganda. Art is Truth.
Art is Truth????
Well, that’s the best propaganda I ever heard :)
Panos: I also don’t think it would be a good idea to remove the sound from the piece. To my mind, the audio is the best part. But to give viewers the option to see a slide show of very moving images without sound at the end of a multimedia presentation could be very powerful: the contrast. In this case, the loss of the sound when you look at the images may remind the viewer, subconsciously, of ‘the loss’ experienced by the survivors. Just an idea…
Marcin..ha ha , you are even more “extremist” than me..
Likes it ;)
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
Extremist? (out of control) is my definition;)
Art is truth? Art is propaganda? It can be both and used for both! Anyway; whatever art you pursue is only your own perceived view. So you have filtered it or maybe even distorted it through your own mind.
MW
link not working for me…i mean technically…pasa nada
ROSS…
i think you are quite right in general , although great material in the hands/eye of of great photographer can yield greatness
MW…MARCIN
there are some truths…like the affects of gravity on either rising or falling objects…and like the temperature required to boil water at various altitudes…..most of the rest of the stuff is up for grabs…
a version with choice…. mouse over plus patience http://www.etrouko.com.au/imantskrumins.htm
works better with browser window on full screen
I think the “ability” to tell a story only fails when the ability to “hear” a story is absent. Anyone can tell a story, and there are many stories that need to be told. Sometimes the best stories come from the least likely of places. Some people are more entertaining than others – Robert Capa being a great example. His use of embellished and exciting stories to sell himself and his work did wonders for him. But what’s truly most important? The need to be entertained or the will to learn? What is your motivation when hearing another’s story? Did you ask to hear it or did you just stumble into it?
hmmmm… or maybe that way:
philosophy is propaganda, politic and business
art is propaganda, politic and business
photography is propaganda, politic and business
life is is propaganda, politic and business
enjoy your life, enjoy the propaganda, the politic and the business
:)))))))
Imants ………….. one word BEAUTIFUL !!!!
Imants,
Photography and music always work great together.
Beautiful
Imants
*softly* bravo..
Imants I can’t see flash on iPhone..
Laptop still in emergency room..
Spare me… Spare all the non flash/iPhone/iPad poor people out there;)
I saw a homeless guy on his pay as you iPhone the other day in Venice..
viva californication
Pay as you Go iPhone … Imants please drop flash.. for future’s sake..
Because steve jobs says so;)
Imants, i was totally transported.
Imants, what was that? I have to say, if the music had not been there I would not have stayed. And then I didn’t know why I was staying after seeing the three images. Can you fill me in? Did I miss something in my absence of 24 or whatever hours? I am surprised you posted this based upon your comments over the past few days. They were three very nice images though.
I see soul…
and when I see soul
there is beauty
and beauty is coming from within
I am sending silents IMANTS…
I see soul
LOVE YOU BURNIANS…
David. “photographs of celebrities are only “good” if we know who it is being photographed…..i.e. is Annie L really a great photographer or are we mesmerized by the “who” in her pictures”
firstly. Absolutely NOT true. A photo is only good if the photo is good..who the celebrity is, is only of value to picture editors and the general public. Surely the aim is to try and make great shots of whoever the subject matter is.
Take this little selection for example
http://www.flickr.com/photos/john_adam-aka47/sets/72157624584151126/show/
Quite a few celebrities, at least one rock and roll legend(maybe more :)), maybe a famous hollywood film director thrown in for good measure, with some people nobody has ever, or probably will ever hear of. Which is which? who cares? I think all can stand as ‘good’ without needing a name attached to them
If the pictures hold up, then isnt that the point? Which is why they are all untitled, and shown together, to get away from this ‘cult of celebrity’ thing.
BTW. I think annie L has/had a hell of a lot of talent and her early b/w work is fantastic. ‘Named’ celebrity vanity pieces do sort of suck though.
john
David, hmmmm, the link works for me, but all in all it appears I wasn’t at my HTML best yesterday. You don’t want to read my old book reviews anyway. And if you haven’t read Auster, you wouldn’t get the joke. Mainly just thought Bob would be interested. It was just a shut in Sunday. Read and watched Tarkovsky, worked on stuff, sweated buckets. New York is so charming in the heat. Shoulda got out.
Regarding the art and truth thing, I was just parroting old Andrey. I tend to joke when told in an authoritative voice that x = y now, then, and always. Everything is propaganda? Well, maybe. Maybe Imants’ little thing was nothing but shameless propaganda. Looks like Art to me though. Looks like Truth. Maybe old Andrey was right. And even if not, even if I missed the joke, why not live as though art is truth? That’s a choice we, as artists, can make.
‘The purpose of all art is to cause a deep and emotion, also one that is entertaining or pleasing.
Out of the depth and entertainment comes value.’
— W. Eugene Smith
P.
LEE…I can’t log in my other account…
change of plans …you are free to roam …
Maui will probably not see civilian…
BUT my friend …we will meet…
Soul – Truth – Eternity – Art
in a single image set to music
you almost broke my heart
thank you Imants
an ocean
of love
JOHN GLADDY…
sorry mate, but those look like celebrity or performer shots to me…i would say “ok” or “fine” to these pictures, yet without knowing who they are would not choose as a “good” or compelling photograph beyond immediate press use…do agree Annie was/is a talented photographer and yes her early b&w was terrific..still, it was the Stones after all…i am not saying she could not have made great photographs of non-celebrity folks, but she didn’t….i can only go by what actually happened and by the books of photographs of celebrities…as a celebrity photographer she is certainly the best or one of them at least…but, no matter what, that is her fate….which of course has made her a celebrity and wealthy etc etc…so by most American so called success standards Annie is a full blown success story…
cheers, david
DAVID… and ALL Burnians:
”May your mocassins make happy tracks in many snows. And may the rainbow always touch your shoulder.”
~ a Cherokee blessing
I’m a little uncomfortable critiquing someone’s requiem piece, but since my thoughts are entirely positive and it is linked to in a discussion of multimedia, I’ll hazard the chance.
In the context of this discussion, I like it very much for two reasons. One, the largely non-linnear nature of the presentation. A tough act in this medium. Two, the use of poetic relationships to tell the story rather than straightforward narrative, an approach I think we don’t see enough of in photo essays. And three (looks up, half expecting the Spanish Inquisition (but they never come when you expect them, only when you don’t)), okay, there’s no three. Once again though, condolences…
David; Yes; I was generalising about the story/storytelling idea :-)
Civi. Disappointed.
sorry to be a bit pedantic david, but the stones pics were good because they were good pictures, not just because the stones were the subject. In fifty years time, people who have no idea who the stones are/were should still be appreciating those shots. And that was my whole point. The ‘who is this?’ is just an aside.
The Anton corbjin shot of don van vliet for the cover of ice cream for crow is a killer shot despite the fact that most people have no idea who captain beefheart is.
mapplethorpes shot of patti smith for horses..same deal.
penni smiths shot of paul simonon smashing his bass.
Who these people are, and who photographed them, and what they are for, are totally irelevent in my view.
I admit that rock and roll photography is an aquired taste, and maybe its not ‘poetic storytelling’ whatever the hell that is, but as a genre of photography, done well, I would pick it most days above much of the offerings that are popular with magazine editors and ‘photo-artists’.
ironically, the music photo that is supposed, by some, to be the greatest iconic music picture of all time; the picture of johnny cash flipping the bird, I think is decidedly average..if it wasnt johnny cash it would be a non picture…go figure.
Always nice to disagree with such an agreeable person :)
john
Annie Leibowitz sucks..
I’m from LA.. Celebrity town..
I know I “should” like her but gotta be honest..
11:45am in LA… Not too many celebrities out
in the streets yet.. Nevermind I’ll wait ;)
I guess they are a bit thin on the ground at the skid row end of venice right?
Ha ha..not really.. Just saw Metallicas’s base player walking his pitbulls;)
I’m hanging around Brentwood now..7th and Montana.. ;)
of all the well known musicians and dj’s i’ve snapped i think there are 2 or 3 i have online.. just not that interesting, although of course i’ll cash them in.
strangely though – i earn more from resales of general people and rare venues / festivals than i do from the ‘names’.. times, and youth culture, has changed.
the formula for snapping musicians, dj’s and the like is just too easy once you’ve nailed it.. repetitive.. formulaic.. just as the mags / pr’s / festivals want…
so many agency snappers are sent ot only get these shots that these days they are really common.. john cash flipping the bird and so on.
a good photograph of a rarely caught moment in the crowd bakes my buns much more.
such a shame some of the 50’s and 60’s snappers neglected this angle.. or at least exhibits don’t show it.
da
Damn… Wait a minute… Who’s that guy in that Benz yelling and swearing and shouting??
Wow.. Looks exactly like Mel Gibson but I’m not putting my hand on the bible for this;)
Big hug
May good mood prevails;)
david bowen. I guess a lot of it comes down to individual taste and motive. I dont think I have ever taken a picture I didnt want to take just to make money(does that make me lucky, or naive?), and most of the music pictures I take, I take just for myself. Even commissions i will only do if i think there is a shot that I want. I remember doing a show for a promoter and not taking a single picture of the headline band…they were, to me, photographiclly boring. he went apeshit, I didnt get paid, but i got a great shot of a drunk at the bar and a girl from one of the support groups.
How excitement-packed June 26 turned out to be! One minute watching Julian Assange LIVE in London discussing the war reports he leaked, the next, the White House’s response to it LIVE from the White House.
And in less than a month, this world wide web has shaken me up and turned my world inside out and upside down. But, more importantly:
I have a mind to confuse things,
unite them,
bring them to birth,
mix them up, undress them,
until
the light of the world has the oneness
of the ocean…
sorry for going off-topic…
The piece is the first concerted attempt to achieve a better translation of the books I have put together as usual linear stuff didn’t work. I figured five books for the year was enough at the moment and didn’t want to dig a visual hole for myself and I have free time to play.
At this stage it is just about the simple slide tools available either at a minimum cost or freeware. But I figured I may run the animation /flash direction and eventually translate into a html structure/ ipad though I reckon Jobs is a bit on the greed side as flash is a pretty creative application that has great stoy telling potential.
I intentionally am opting out of using moving pictures and going down that path as it is a different way of thinking ……….. a trailer for “etrouko the animated book” is in progress though a few months in the future.
For those that viewed the piece, thanks for the comments and it was meant as a quiet esoteric piece and the first step to giving the viewer a distinct multiple paths. The piece is really about memory and the music is a Latvian piece “Where do you go to my brother”
I don’t have that much to say about the dialogue topic and will leave it to others……….
….. love the leaks about Afghanistan especially when the head leak honcho stated that nobody will be compromised or harmed because the leaks are being published.
bang you are dead
JOHN G and DAH,
Aaah, the ol’ rock and roll celebrity vs compelling photo on it’s own conundrum… glad I’ve never had to deal with that! :) :)
The best compliment I’ve ever received was from an 80 year old something woman who was on the board at the Chrysler Museum in Norfolk, VA when I had my Touch Me show there. She said she knew nothing about rock and roll but was totally captivated by the photos and could imagine what it was like to partake in it. Mission accomplished.
Part of it is telling the whole story. John G, if I may, what I think is lacking with your very fine music photos is the glue that holds them together, makes them an entity unto themselves, and not just a random assemblage of bands and musicians. I think this is what DAH is referring (?). Like you, I will disagree with DAH that celebrity somehow renders the photos less compelling on their own – it’s just a matter of context and intention I believe. So find a scene and document the ins and out outs of it. Make it a story that even an 80 year old can get excited over. Then it doesn’t matter who the fuck it is.
Tomorrow I start teaching a group of nine high schoolers in a rock photography camp at EMP. They will be shooting the other band camps in classroom settings – not really the Stones at Madison Square Garden! :)
So what I am going to emphasize with them is composition (x3) above all else – moments come with experience and if they can’t dynamically compose when those moments appear then alas all is lost. Since lighting will be tricky, and no minimum camera requirements, I will have them all shoot in b&w to level the playing field. Should be fun!
Oh yea, three, I like the pace.
Charles; I showed some of my Indie music pics to a “seniors” group a while ago. After seeing them one chap said; “I wish i was 17 again!” To which a lady replied “You mean you wish you were 70 again!” :-)
I am back home, with my fast internet connection and a desire to see what this discussion is all about. Yet, having just dropped in and still feeling that exhausted feeling that you have when you come in from the field having had too little sleep I can’t bring myself to focus on 500 comments.
But I did see DAH’s twitter about having finished Burn in print, so congratulations on that and I look forward to seeing it.
As for me, after two experiments at doing so – the General Assembly of the Inuit Circumpolar Council in Greenland and the Gwich’in Gathering in Fort Yukon, especially with a painfully slow and often non-functional internet connection, I have concluded that day to day event photo-blogging-with-words is not practical and is counter-productive.
On this trip, I gave the idea up early and just decided to blog the Gathering this week. Maybe even that is impossible to do what I want to do, but, starting tomorrow, I am going to start trying and I will find out.
Jenny:
I have a mind to confuse things,
unite them,
bring them to birth,
mix them up, undress them,
until
the light of the world has the oneness
of the ocean…
jenny lynn walker
July 26, 2010 at 5:20 pm
sorry for going off-topic…
just when i thought you were doing so well, you turn around and apologize..don’t sop now, Jenny…off topic sounds quite nearly exactly right…
best
kathleen
FROSTFROG,
Welcome back …
you will definitely need your reading glasses
enjoy!!!
LEE,
please …don’t dish our appointment…not yet…
when there is a vision
there is a way…
I am south of Italy …I am approaching France …by the end of July …
I will call my French people…
JENNY,
I will try to e-mail…BUT I have baby problem:)))
KATIE…we need update…LOVE YOU…stay strong
I can’t loose My Street Fighter…
BURNIANS…each one of you…YOU are all in my heart
LOVE YOU…
KATIEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE..
damnit …
I believe in the energy…thousand miles away…
energy is energy
it comes back to rock you…
all you need is MYGRACIE’S ice-cream, GORDON’S “I love my life”
DAVISB’S roockandrolla, PANO’S tell it as it is,BOBBY’S energizing wordfalls,
OURPATRICIA’S white Eagle’s vision…
you are so many…
I am counting free minutes…
LOVE YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
ohhh…before I go…
THANK YOU MR.DAVID ALAN HARVEY.
THANK YOU ANTON
THANK YOU MIKEC.
THANK YOU KERRY
THANK YOU ALLLLLL of you that you are helping behind the scenes and we don’t know your names…(not yet)
…I forgot my little purple book at home…
THANK YOU from my Civilian heart…for the vision…!!!
BURN is in our heart…and I know I am addicted…
and you are always on my side…hmmm…like PANO’S tattoo…
again…
THANK YOU …
Jenny – It appears to me that this thread has evolved into the all-purpose thread – which means it is just the right place for off-topic.
And I always enjoy the way you use words.
I’m glad you’re off-topic.
And thank you, Civi.
Bill. have you thought about using an offline blog editor? Make now-upload at leisure kind of thing.
havent used one myself but I know they exist, and are for exactly the situations you describe.
John – Yes, I have thought about it and I did experiment with a couple but they did not work. The experiment ate up so much time that I have been reluctant to try again, but, if I were to find one that would work…
DAH…
So, which way did you go with Burn 01?
Civi: The question was simply where are you now? I know you’re on the road but that is all. I hope you’re enjoying yourself! : )
Imants: Yes. Assange has a brilliant mind and will be disliked, not only for the leaked documents but because he comes across so well in interviews. His answers to every question are as cool and collected as any President and equally, if not more, articulate and intelligent. I am praying for him.
“The most dangerous men are those who are in charge of war. And they need to be stopped. If that makes me dangerous in their eyes, so be it.” Julian Assange
Kathleen: It was a snippet of the last words in a poem from one my favourite poets: Pablo Neruda.
And another snippet:
“I know only the skin of the Earth and I know it has no name.” ie there is no need for individual countries because we are ‘one people’.
How is the debate going? Has anyone been convinced to change their original point of view?
Thank you Frostfrog. : )
Julian Assange is in charge of war
DAVID – I would love to send something special into Burn but I’m not certain what to send. I have an essay produced in a way that breaks photographic rules and will no doubt be ridiculed, or simply dismissed, and be regarded as pontification or omphaloskepsis (just found that word and its perfect!). An ‘Art’ piece. Or, an essay created to spread a little positive news about a place and people that I grew to love. More ‘Documentary’. But tell me, should I try to get it all up on a website first so you can choose as there’s lots to choose from? Some of the pieces are more about prompting thought on how the world is, and how we are as people, rather than telling stories with a strong narrative. Actually, there is no narrative because I am just recording ‘moments’. I am feeling culture-shocked being back home after so long away and would appreciate your advice.
Imants: I would say he wants more people in charge of peace.
ie… because he did not hold onto the documents which appear to catalogue war crimes… he gave them to YOU and to ME and, to every single person in the world with access to a computer screen…
We are currently half way to 1,000 comments
jenny, I guess you’ll find all answers regarding submissions on this page:
https://www.burnmagazine.org/submissions/
JENNY,
I would suggest to have some ouzo…
“ompaloskepsis”=From the Greek: omphalos (navel) + skepsis (act of looking, examination), it refers to excessive introspection, self-absorption, or concentration on a single issue.
LOVE you JENNY…you are Greek too:))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
You know, we all consider ourselves being photographers, don’t we?… our abilities to take strong pictures or stories vary greatly, don’t they?… great photographers are able to speak the visual language that is understood by almost everyone and everywhere, aren’t they?… It isn’t our photographers’ business to contemplate ability vs willingness… we do because we do, because it’s our mission, because we don’t want to do anything else… – the audience, galleries, editors… and the time will judge our work, and decide…
Civi: Perhaps just some ‘time out’ – I want to feel refreshed rather than wasted or ‘out of it’. Thanks tho!
Thomas: I know that link. Thanks. I’m in a chicken-and-egg-fix.
850,000 people now working in secret service and counter-intelligence in the USA since 9/11 according to ‘Top Secret America” – 2-year investigation by the Washington Post… its all too much.
Civi: in my dictionary, it means: A MEDITATION.
So, would an omphaloskeptic be someone who doesnt believe in the existence of the navel? Is there a name for those who do not believe in the existence of the kumquat or the tangerine, or perhaps even the Valencia? I am having a very hard time imagining why anyone would choose to disbelieve in the existence of citrus fruits, but I don’t get around much.
Akaky
I think rather it is someone who is navel obsessed.
EURIPIDES: But I’ve no time.
DICAEOPOLIS: Well, let them wheel you round.
EURIPIDES: It cannot be.
DICAEOPOLIS: It must.
EURIPIDES: Well, I’ll allow them
To wheel me round, but I can’t leave my couch.
Citruskeptics…hmmm…AKAKY…I try
Medidation….that’s what I need…THANK YOU JENNY !!!
and back to our regular program…
LOVE YOU ALLL…France I am almost there!!!
Civi, you will come in France? When? Hope to meet you :)))
DAVID ALAN HARVEY
Just dropped you an email I’d love to hear your thoughts about. RE: CIRCUS
2nd TATTOO.. available in my facebook pit tonight..
Gimme couple hours;)
Civi and all who wished me well during my earlier crisis
I had a further slump health-wise but am extremely optimistic that things will be back to normal in just a few more days. Just here to say that Gracie gave me the equivalent of her ice cream and it was super therapeutic..as were the best wishes of the Burn community..so thanks ALL! And the good news is that i never stopped working on my photos not even for one night while all this was going on..ok, ok, just one night and that was because of a party.
Jenny
i have a major crush on Julian Assange. The man is awesome in every way that i can see. What presence, what calm, what conviction what a brain..i thought when i voted for the current president that the world would finally start to see relief but i know now he’s trying to turn a huge bus around in heavy traffic. Assange just hops, skips, jumps, slides, oozes. slithers and squirms his way past these unwieldy, top heavy, cumbersome, hulking governments as if he was a skinny street kid on a skateboard. I am in awe of Wikileaks and believe there could not have been a better time for this to happen. I do worry about Brad Manning and feel nothing but loathing for the hacker (a frigging hacker no less who suddenly decided to stop playing his own dirty tricks and start loving good old fashioned law and order..funny, who would you rather trust in this story?).
Anyway, thanks for the source to those words and the additional text by Neruda. I still think you were/are on a roll however, so make off topic the topic..
best
Kathleen
Kathleen: I also have a major crush on Julian Assange. Thanks to Julian and the internet I now have 90,000 secret files on this latest war in the Middle East on my own desktop. I’m not quite sure what to do with it all mind, I’m just keeping an eye on developments at this point. I also have pictures of both his left and right sides! So many thanks to the photographers who so quickly uploaded their pics onto twitter from when he was outside of the Frontline Club. Why? Because I’ve never seen so much idealism, intelligence and courage wrapped up in one man, not so close up (figuratively speaking). I’ve never seen such a brilliance and yes, what perfect timing to have someone enter the world stage in this DIGIGAL AGE as: an ‘INFORMATION ACTIVIST’!!!
Kathleen: I forgot to say, I’m sorry to hear your health has not been at all good lately. I’m sending you healing thoughts – to your body, your mind, and to your heart – through the airwaves from my mind as well as through the wires that runs across the oceans, and connects us all… with love, x
JARED..
i received your email…thanks…will respond soonest…or, at least after my family vacation for the next 10 days or so…basically Circus has been on hold while we produced BURN 01….now that is done, or at least mostly done…we will move on Circus this fall…you should be in touch with Marie Arago most of all..she is the picture editor for Circus and has been working on the content for several months…
THODORIS..
we went with traditional printing for BURN 01…more work for all of us, but we think it will be worth it in the long run…..best quality and at most reasonable price to consumer…..being printed in Italy….TODAY!!
JENNY…
it is always best to simply submit as per normal through our submissions system….honestly, there is no other practical way…once i choose a particular essay for consideration, i then work with the photographer for the best way to present…in the context of submissions for Burn, i do require that an essay be more or less complete…..there is always a mountain of work to do even with stories which seem apparently done…however, i do also get involved with stories which may be good ideas, but not yet complete…that totally depends obviously on the extent to which my interest is piqued by either the story and/or the photographer’s passion and the ubiquitous “ability to tell”….and i do look at all links posted here in Dialogue if the photographer asks me to look….linking here is usually a very good way also to get feedback from your colleagues…always of value
DAH…
Great!!
Half of the monographs on my bookshelves were printed in Italy… it seems there are many high quality presses there…
exciting
DAVID – Thank you. I must give the whole thing more thought – on what is the best way forward. I am surely an artist-type and control freak when it comes to my work and didn’t enjoy sending work down the line onto ‘a system’ not knowing who would have access to it and wondering where it might end up. But, I will think what might raise your interest and consider whether sharing work through a link on here would FEEL right. Because there are certainly so many knowledgeable and wonderful photographers on here and, Burn would be my first choice of on-line venues to be seen on. Thanks so much! I must also continue with the website
Congratulations on BURN 01 by the way – I’m REALLY looking forward to seeing it!
DAH – a question –
how do you / other photogs working at your level that you know feel about taking newspaper assignments? not for the magazine section, but something you might work on for several days and see run in the regular paper. it seems like not too many of the folks at magnum do this. is it because of the day rate or ?
thanks and happy family time
not breaking news, but agreed on/assigned more personal pieces
Best wine in Italy…and many friends…:)))
AUDREY …I will be in Paris on 1st…
I will contact…
LOVE BURNIANS…I will come back with names…
KATIEEEEEEEEEEEEE…you got the right to partyYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY
LOVE
MR.HARVEY …kiss MAMA SOCRATES…
COME ON BURNIANS..partyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy
..
A quick note to say thanks again to everybody for your considered critique and thoughtful feedback on my essay. With so much dialog here and in the ‘Left Behind’ thread, I have much to work with as I continue this project.
I am both grateful and inspired — a fine state to be in!
Kerry
DAH,
Per your recent twitter – I will be interested to see what you can do with the GF-1. I picked one up myself but just haven’t clicked with it (no pun intended). Probably going to sell it soon. For the size I find myself just grabbing the M9 instead. Hopefully someday we’ll have the digital equivalent of the Olympus XA, Contax T, etc.
Best,
CP
OK – My trip to NY is finalized. I will be arriving Saturday and leaving Thursday. Any Burnians want to get together for a drink? Erica and I have been in preliminary discussions about getting together Tuesday night.
DAH – Are you back in town? I’d love to see Casa de Burn.
http://events.magnumphotos.com/workshop/home-david-alan-harvey-loft
THANK YOU KERRY…from the book of face…
What not to Love…
CHARLES…kisses and hugs to FELIX…one of the the BURNING kids…
back to ouzo and navel….searching:))) I should have listened to my inner voice
CIVI,
Kisses and hugs going his way! I think for true navel gazing it might be time to move on to the retsina…. Spent a summer month in Greece when I was 20 – 26 years ago! Very fond memories of retsina hangovers on Crete beaches….
Hugs,
CP
retsina…oime you are hardrock…or hard core …something like that…
VIVAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA…to the dreamers…GFI’s and EFI’s and Mediums…
etcetera…:)))
DAH – I am eager to see the printed product. I am confident you will sell enough copies to justify the upfront costs of traditional printing.
Now I have a question for and usually when I pose a question for you its somehow gets passed over and never answered and most of the time I just shrug it off as you being too busy to pick up on everything and it didn’t really matter, anyway, but I hope you will see this and will answer.
The first of two special issues of Uiñiq magazine – the publication that I created in 1985 to document Iñupiat life on the Arctic Slope, did regularly for 11 years but now just do every two, three or four years, came out awhile back. I was going to send it to you but never did but still would like to. The only thing is I have this fear that you are flooded with so much material that it will just disappear into the pile and you will never actually see it.
I kind of hate to burden you, too – but if it will reach you, and you will not feel overburdened, then I want to send it.
DAH,
maybe I am just too blind to see. But .. how can I order Burn01?
I mean – is there an URL or a Form, where I can leave my address .. and find details on how to pay for it,
or will this be somewhere in some time?
You know .. I just can’t wait :)
DAH,
“…..being printed in Italy….TODAY!!”
that’s a great news: looking forward to buying my copy…
may I ask who is the printer and where she is located in Italy? (of course, only if you want to disclose such details…)
Enough with greek beaches…
Come down to Venice .. Free workshop..
(almost free: u provide the beer ofcourse ;)
I’m too tired to put a comment up on the new essay right now but couldn’t resist reading a few comments. I was laughing so hard when I read this one that I thought I’d stop right there for the day. I love ‘randomness’ so it is also a laugh at myself. And, every time I read it I will laugh:
mw “it’s like if I printed all my favorite photos, put them on the wall, threw twenty darts and called the results “America.”
Wishing ALL Burnians sweet dreams and laughter tonight.
“you know…I just can’t wait”
THOMAS…the soul of a true BURNIAN…:)))
yeap…Venice is in my agenda…first we take Italy,then France…then we take Venice…
ahhhh…Maui…well, life is weird…full of surprises…
keep shooting…stories are unfolding in front of you…you got the ability…
BURN it:)))
Antios
Oh Civi..
Come to California .. U gotta hug Cali and Cali has a “present” waiting 4U;)
@ ALL
“Ansel Adams’ heirs skeptical over $200M lost negatives claim”
http://www.usatoday.com/news/offbeat/2010-07-27-ansel-adams-garage-sale_N.htm
I don’t know if this is true or false. I’m also skeptical…but, but, if is TRUE, I do not be the man who sold this negative ten years ago.
Yep, Shit happens…
By the way (for every photographer), this is a really good news. Remembers me when Magnum announced that they’ve found “The lost negatives of Capa”.
Pat.
……nah not every photographer ………. I couldn’t give a toss
AUDREY,
i will be near the Saint Germain area…for 4 days…
my e-mail is civilianma@yahoo.com
I have yours…I will be looking for internet cafes…
hiii…I am gonna hold a baby chicken…:)))
How do we go about ordering Burn Magazine 01 in print?!
noonoo…I am gonna hold the BURN magazine…or I will have the BURN mask…
BUT if you can’t make it…no worries
I will be back …September
DAH
Regarding your recent tweet about using the GF-1 I, like Charles, am also a bit curious.
Since you’re shooting it, I can only assume that Nat Geo sees no technical issues with
reproducing files from this camera.
MTOMALTY….
i asked Natgeo about the quality issue , if any, with the GF1…none whatsoever they say…..
ALL…
i am both shooting and on vacation…many have asked me by email why i have reported both family activity and shooting ….well, both are true…my family are guests at my home and my home is the subject of my current commission for Natgeo, part of a Magnum book, and a continuous personal project since i was a kid…yup, getting paid to be on vacation….i feel i deserve it at this point…i have been busting it up until about 15 minutes ago solving the last crises on the printing of Burn 01…and simply exhausted from all that went into it…and yes Anton too and yes Diego Orlando too and yes Anna Maria Barry Jester too…all of us went to the wall to gather all the material, do layout, tweak everything, contact all photographers, and check out all the production process…a never ending jobs..anyway timing perfect for some time off with my family, who i will also be shooting..when they let me that is…i will be a bit scarce here except for story editing…but i will try to pop in from time to time….
cheers, david
JENNY…FROSTFROG
we will post something soonest so that interested people can order Burn 01…this new book/magazine will not be a money maker, but it could be a money loser if we do not sell any….but, i will take that chance…i am taking that chance….Burn 01 will be some kind of landmark no matter what …a serious book from an online blog audience…might be a first…i do not know…
cheers, david
DAH,
Sounds like a first to me. Also, I will be very curious to know how the the GF1 performs for you.
As to the unanswered part of my question, I will take a chance and will go ahead and send you a copy of the Uiñiq, hope that it makes it to you and that it reaches you when you have time to look at it. We miscalculated how many we would need and came up short, so I have few copies to spare, but I would like you to see it. If you have not seen my book, Gift of the Whale, I could put that in the package, too.
The only mailing address that I have so far found for you is the general Magnum address on 25th street. I hope that will do the job.
DAVID,
Many of us will be waiting to get ourselves a copy…. Cannot wait! Good to see Diego’s name popping up….Was wondering if the two of you were still in touch…. Heading to Rome myself in about 2 weeks for a long week-end…. Sure will have lots of great memories coming back… like desperately chasing pictures in the afternoon hoping you like one the next morning :):):)
Hope you are well and can relax a bit with family.
Eric
…a song in my head …
SETTLED
we have internet..
last move for a year or so hopefully..
http://www.bophoto.co.uk/wpblog/?p=288
My heart is aching this morning having seen the cover of Time magazine that has to be the most powerful piece of propaganda to continue the war in Afghanistan I have ever seen. We can always expect such tactics in the gutter press where standards of journalism are often at the lowest but how Time can say it remains impartial with such a cover is just a joke. I hope that anyone who looks at that cover and whose heart is breaking like mine to see that woman on the cover being used in that way – not only for the horrific crime against her but, for the total lack of impartiality on the part of Time, a supposedly a quality publication, can understand why we so desperately need the Julian Assange’s of the world to break government control and propaganda in journalism.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/07/29/time-magazine-cover-expla_n_663617.html
Please watch the video in the Huffington Post. ‘Brave New Films argues that the idea of Afghan women being free after the toppling of the Taliban is a “false perception,” and that “war won’t liberate Afghan women.” People interviewed in the video maintain that the advancement of women’s rights has been “cosmetic,” and that the actual quality of life for women has not improved since the occupation. In some cases, they argue, the treatment of women has worsened due to an extremely fundamentalist judiciary and the radicalization of a population currently engaged in what risks becoming a state of perpetual war’.
Hi DAH,
You made this comment under MCB’s essay on China. Perhaps you could elaborate…I think myself and others would be interested in hearing about what this “big step” could be. I don’t know about others here on Burn, but I feel that Michael’s work can definitely stand with some of the best color photographers in Magnum. Is it this idea of becoming an “author”? Again, sometimes this term really confuses me because it seems that so often it is used regarding certain photographers whose work that is already clearly heavily influenced by others, even members of Magnum who are all supposedly distinctly different and unique “authors”. Perhaps this is a point of discussion and would love to hear what others on Burn think as well…..
“he knows what he wants and who he thinks he should be, but he also knows that he has a step to go..a big step….this should be interesting for all of you…to see where Mike goes from here….i have watched Mike since college days…always thought he just might make it…Mike is at the swing point….let’s hope he knocks the ball out of the park…”
My heart also goes out to ALL photographers around the world whose great work is all too often used by newspapers and magazines in the creation of propaganda.
@ DAH
“but it could be a money loser if we do not sell any…. ”
jeje, k-mon David!!,
I think that one week after the release of the BURN 01 Magazine (is correct to call a Mag of 330 pages ;-)) you are gonna to call the printer and say to him/her that every single mag was sold…and need 2nd edition, per favore.
I’m on the list to purchase one…
Sun is shining here in southern France :-)
Pat
Internet here at Mom’s near Paris, is a bit unnerving when it comes to speed, regarding photos and essays (same as in Thailand pretty much), I am too used to instant download in SF, and also, my web presence takes a thankful beating, when travelling.
I hope you are all well, will make sure to check when BURN zine in print is out….
Civi, I am off Sunday to the Northeast of France, Picardie, for 2 weeks, how long will you be in Paris?
What is on the cover of National Geographic this month and what is the headline? omg! Not propaganda on the Geographic too I hope. Please tell me NO!
Well happy to see I am not the only person who has noticed the off-the-chart propaganda quotient in the use of that picture with that title in Time. Also not the only person to see that the picture evokes some recollection of an earlier world-famous photograph of a woman in Afghanistan… the comments on here are
G-R-E-A-T!
http://www.bagnewsnotes.com/2010/07/your-turn-what-happens-if-we-leave-afghanistan/
Jenny, don’t you think you’re a little too quick with the propaganda charge? Uhhhm, are these not valid issues, i.e. women’s rights within the context of a negotiated withdrawl? As for National Geographic, what is the propaganda with Bahamian Blue Holes? Quagmire issues?
Damn, I just took the bait didn’t I? I really should know better …
Damn, I just took the bait didn’t I? I really should know better …
Yea, I was thinking the same thing. But what a lot of people don’t know, or don’t think about , and this is a very important point, is that the U.S. is doing nothing for women’s rights in the areas we control. Those very same atrocities committed against women by the Taliban are committed right in front of our faces by our allies and our soldiers’ orders are to ignore them, to respect the local culture, as long as the local culture doesn’t take up arms against us. So yes, the Time piece is the very worst kind of propaganda because of its staggering combination of evil, hypocrisy, and dishonesty in the service of a brutal war that serves the interests of no decent people anywhere.
once again, Akaky’s adventures in the big city…
http://www.flickr.com/photos/akaky/sets/72157624485480907/show/
mw: thanks a million for saving me from having to answer that question. it was a perfect answer. and there are so many – including the total decimation of something i also value highly: good journalism.
Looks like Assange’s dream has come true……..The Taliban has warned that it is hunting down Afghans whose names might appear on the leaked Afghanistan war logs on grounds that they were informers for the Nato-led coalition.
……..special edition for those that worship him, the best part is in an interview he stated the White House forced him to publish by not filtering the list for him. What a total dickhead
Thanks for sharing your adventures there, Akaky. You found some good stuff there in Times Square. I hate to say it, but the one that is lingering longest in my memory is the one just before Spiderman, although I found Spidey himself to be pretty memorable.
Crazy place.
If you want to see the opposite, where heavy traffic can mean encountering one other boat on a two-and-half hour drive up the Yukon, please drop in on my latest series:
http://wasillaalaskaby300.squarespace.com/journal/category/snook
MW (Michael), a well-reasoned answer but I have only read the web-abstract, so I shouldn’t say too much more before I get the hard copy. Citing an article for “its staggering combination of evil, hypocrisy, and dishonesty” is pretty hard core. Evil, really?
I was only addressing the article, not the war itself btw. If I understand you correctly then, in your opinion the TIME piece may be factually accurate insofar as it goes but commits the sin of omission in not addressing the current state of affairs (except it is, isn’t it?) and, as you imply, the lack of any improvement for women’s rights since occupation, and the (wrong?) implication that things will get worse following withdrawal, and, worst of all, the use of women’s rights as justification for continued US/NATO involvement in Afghanistan. Isn’t the question TIME asks on the cover a valid one, though? I assume then your issue is with the reporting, the angle and the spin? I am not trying to put words in your mouth, only attempting to clarify what your opinion is and the logical premise on the TIME article and cover photo. What do you think would have been an appropriate approach to the issues? (Running into town to get a copy soon)
I am always interested in people’s perception of the media having myself been accused of all sorts of horrible things, and often simultaneously by opposing camps, in my newspaper days and I really do think the propaganda charge gets thrown around a little too quickly for print media. But hey, a level-headed reasoned discussion is always interesting and I often learn quite a bit. Also, I am soon welcoming back a friend who just returned from that theater after a year on the policy side of things and am interested in her perspective on this issue.
JENNY, I’m still confused by the NatGeo reference. Given that the host of this forum is who he is, it’s kind of uncool to do a drive by shooting without any frame of reference don’t you think? Maybe you were joking, or I haven’t seen the latest issue, or …???
Bill; that fish wheel is a pretty cool contraption! :-)
hmmnn mmmm love the blowies hovering around
@Imants…
Right. Because the Taliban really were running out of justifications for, you know, being the fucking Taliban!
the Taliban were the good guys when they got stuck into the Soviets/Russians…… then become the bad guys because the the US said so. Assange reckons that the US are the bad guys but was counting on the Taliban being the good guys
………………….in the end he figured that he was the only good guy. Mind you he did leave “Tonto” his young accused leak source to the wolves. See the “Lone Ranger” is really the good guy
…………bullfukinshit he is
that reminds me I better go the the servo the tank is a bit low
The Taliban were never the good guys. They were never thought to be good guys. Get your history straight.
so I shouldn’t say too much more before I get the hard copy.
Tom, yes, that’s wise. Damn, I went off half-cocked (or is that crocked?) again. And hopefully I made an ass of myself. Hopefully the synopsis I read of the article was way off base. Hopefully it’s not as morally horrific as it has been described.
But if what I read of the article’s content, and the relationship between the photo and the content, is accurate; and if what I’ve read about the U.S. not imposing our loose western morals regarding women’s basic human rights in the areas of Afghanistan we control is accurate; then yes, that article is a terrible example of propaganda. Is it the worst form? I don’t know. Hyperbole? Who, me?
Evil? I do try real hard not to use the word “evil.” It’s a horribly lazy word. Sorry. I’m ashamed of myself. Really. I’m not being sarcastic. Not using the word “evil” is one of my rules, one of my core principles. I broke it, abandoned it. Shouldn’t have.
Dishonest? Hypocritical? Maybe the people who produced the article (if the description I read is accurate) are not dishonest hypocrites? Then what are they? Just dupes? Stenographers for the real propagandists? Journalists who typed up what they were told without doing even a scintilla of research? That’s certainly possible. Happens all the time as we know all too well.
But either way — whether the journalists were grossly incompetent or in on the plot — the use of the Taliban’s horrific treatment of women as a justification for continuing the war when we’re doing nothing whatsoever to stop the same thing in areas we control would be a classic example of a very toxic form of propaganda. I’d recognize it as such even if it were employed for a cause I believe in. Funny though, causes I believe in rarely, if ever, go that route. Do truly just causes ever?
Ah Tom, the taste of bait in the late afternoon… Time to wash it down with a cold Asahi.
“Time to wash it down with a cold Asahi” Spotmatic or K1000? :-)
With all the suppoert the Taliban got from the US, I doubt if the US govt. would have given their people’s taxes to the Taliban if they didn’t see any good in Taliban………..
My history is ok yours seems to be lost in “white-out strips” and a red highlighter
Imants; Speaking of leaks. A couple of days ago one of our senior opposition politicians tried to roll his leader. He sent out a bunch of anonymous letters to the media and politicians. Of course he hand addressed the envelopes, and of course the leader recognised his handwriting! Duuuuh!
Talk about having less intelligence than a chocolate fish! I mean; even a 10 year old knows you gotta forge your mum’s signature and handwriting on “her” permission note when you want to wag school! :-)
What do you think would have been an appropriate approach to the issues?
Honest investigation and discussion of possible outcomes and possibilities. Forgo sensationalist propaganda that supports a particular policy. If it’s a news piece, forgo policy advocacy altogether. If it’s an opinion piece, use honest facts and argument to support the policy the author, or publication, advocates.
Washington’s initial enthusiasm for the Taliban’s seizure of power ……..
Ross I am all for leaks but when the sources are not stated or the posters of the leaks don’t support their sources when found out is a pretty weak act.
It is the same as the…….We are going to secretly set you up so that you fuckup and then we will hang you. ………….nice
Imants… Your ignorance is stunning.
Michael did you miss the part where your government supported sectors of the Taliban and there has been plenty of evidence to support that notion, even your own CNN and Times will give you information on that.
All you have managed in reply is couple of insults, I will forgive you for that part as that you probably respond.
I will forgive you for that part as that you probably respond to others.
Any reason we have to have good vs bad? As far as I see it both the Taliban AND the US policy is bad. The Taliban were definitely never the “good guys” unless you like having to wear a beard, witness stadium stonings and beheadings, hate music and art of any kind, and if a women, well forget about it.
BTW, the Taliban formed after the Soviets pulled out and the country was being torn apart by various warlords They saw a radical fundamentalist vacuum and stepped in. A bit like the Khmer Rouge really (who, btw, was given the big thumbs up at the time by Noam Chomsky. Oops…).
Yes, the Time piece is probably a lame justification of us being/staying there. Of course none of us have had our nose cut off (or the threat of) so hard to tell. Would like to know what the girl on the cover thinks, and her take on whether the US military presence affords protection for women or not.
Any reason we have to have good vs bad? …….. ask Assange aka “The Lone Ranger” he is hoping that the Taliban are good guys and don’t knock of the names he has published
“…the U.S. is doing nothing for women’s rights in the areas we control.”
——————————————
Please tell me that this isn’t a surprise to anyone. The US military is there to fight a counter-insurgency battle, and try to ruffle as few social feathers as possible along the way. It’s kind of hard to ask a culture to not hate us, then turn around and say that their beliefs are wrong. How would we feel if the roles were reversed? I certainly don’t agree with the policy. I just don’t think there’s an easy answer.
As we wander around our superior western cities, stepping around the homeless and mentally ill left to fend for themselves, maybe stopping by the deli or supermarket for some inhumanely reared meat, and possibly turning a blind eye, or even partaking of, the eastern european slave rings down the block there that bring all those fresh young girls to town for us, and Feeling good in our new sweat shop manufactured trainers and tops, as we check out the billboard for the latest blockbuster movie, a bargain at $100,000,000 that we will use to kill another hour and a half of our lives in mildly entertained anasthesia.
I wonder, as we do this, do we ever stop to wonder “who the hell are we to impose our moral code on ANYONE?”
NO? thought not.
Yeah, we do. Of course we do. You’re just brilliant, John. Really.
“ANYONE?”
NO? thought no.
……….the best way to be self-righteous don’t let anyone respond. Gotta love it!!
John’s got a point. Shit.
Tom: I would be really interested, given that like me you also come from a background in journalism and the ‘newspaper’ world, if you could come up with something you have seen in the mainstream media that can more readily be described as ‘propaganda’ than this latest cover of Time magazine? Another cover would be good – a cover in the mainstream media, preferably one that gains a large amount of it’s sales and circulation figs from off-the-stand sales – ie is seen throughout the streets of the USA.
Re: The Geographic. I misinterpreted a comment that I received from someone. I took the comment to mean that there was a similar image on the cover of the Geographic. As I did not know what was on the cover of the Geographic this month and have begun to wonder just how far government is interfering in things these days, I was shocked by the comment. Infact, the comment was referring to an earlier cover of the Geographic ie the original Afghan Girl. Some bloggers are saying that the girl on the cover of Time, by the way the image has been taken, is evocative of that image/those images (there were two of course as McCurry went back to find her years later). The argument is that it is an effort to play mind games with the American public using one of the most powerful images in the nation’s subconscious. The clothing she is dressed in is closer to the second photograph that McCurry took when he returned in terms of colour etc and she has half-removed her veil. I have no idea if this was an attempt to create ‘a remake’ or a ‘make-over’ of the Afghan Girl or to make some kind of statement but it if was, I can see that this Afghan girl is looking a little richer, a little less ‘Muslim’, a little more ‘Western’ but there is very clearly one essential difference…
IMANTS. ……except for the little fact that you responded.
You misunderstand me anyhow. I dont give a toss about your morals our morals or their morals. I just wanted to point out that neither do most people really, they just pay lip service to them.
Maybe that is self righteous. if it is, then I am.
IMANTS. ……except for the little fact that you responded….but not before you had already answered with …… NO? thought no.
By saying NO? thought no. before anyone has a chance to respond to …..
I wonder, as we do this, do we ever stop to wonder “who the hell are we to impose our moral code on ANYONE?” … is a self righteous attitude .
fair enough. should i do lines, or just stand in the corner for an hour with the dunce hat on :)
no just a hat
Saying anything about Afghanistan politics immediately puts one on shaky ground as the country has a system of government that relies of tribal loyalty and a loose connection of alliances that shift and change according to circumstances. My understanding is that the United States covertly backed the Northern Alliance, and Ahmad Shah Massoud against the Soviets and left the country to its own devices after the Soviets left. The Northern Alliance fought the Taliban. The word Taliban means student; many of the taliban were educated in Pakistani Madrassas: free schools, usually attached to a Mosque, where children are taught to read and write predominantly from the Holy Quran (Koran) anywhere between the ages of 5 and 25. Many become radicalised (a bit like Paris Island only for a longer period). Both of the terms Taliban and Al-Qaeda refer, again, to a loose and shifting alliance that, from their perspective, and waging a holy war against the infidel invader (that would be every Western soldier and anyone who aids them).
One of my abiding memories of September 11th is of a man in NYC, visibly shocked by events who says (and I paraphrase) “This is a wake up call for the United States of America. We have to ask ourselves, what have we done that makes people hate us so much that they want to do this to us?”. Unfortunately G.W. didn’t agree. he looked at the facts; that terrorists had been trained in Afghanistan, and ….. invaded Iraq. And Tony Peace Envoy Blair, when told by G.W. to jump replied “How high?”.
Another incident that comes to mind is a photographer being asked by an Afghan policeman if he would take a picture of him by his poppy field. When it comes to Afghanistan, we’re not in Kansas anymore. We don’t belong there and the answer to terrorism doesn’t reside there.
Mike.
Here’s a link showing the ethnic diversity of Afghanistan
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38434006
Mike.
I can’t help noticing that the New York Times has a prominent article on women’s rights in Afghanistan this morning. Someone’s information management (cough propaganda cough) operation is going well.
If you wanna talk photojournalism ethics, what up with that pic of Afghan women applying makeup? In a government sponsored (read U.S.?) makeup program, no less. Just to be clear, I’m not saying that picture itself is propaganda, just wondering if it will make those women targets, get them killed or disfigured, just for the sake of someone’s information management operation, an operation no doubt designed to give purpose, or at least a superficial appearance thereof, to a with no purpose, or at least none that anyone can identify, and keep it from becoming a little less unpopular, at least for a news cycle or two.
one of the most powerful images in the nation’s subconscious.
———————————-
Arrêtes ton char, Jenny! :-)))))
Hi everyone, just got back from Italy for two weeks so don’t know if my questions have been discussed already, but was there notification to the photographers included in Burn 01? and pat mentioned being on a list to buy a copy…….is there a list and if so where do I find it?
Thanks, Valery
boy: “Mummy, why is that man standing in the corner with just a hat?”
Mum: “because he got caught being self righteous on the internet honey”
boy: “what does ‘self righteous” mean mommy?”
mum: “I dont know honey, but I know its surely a sinful thing”
boy: “is he going to burn in hell mommy?”
mum: “he already is honey”
boy: “cool…can I have an ice cream?
Herve: Can you see why bloggers are saying the photograph on the cover of Time this week is reminiscent of The Afghan Girl by Steve McCurry or not? Or, is that not a photograph you have ever seen or would find it difficult to recall?
By the way, as far as I know everyone is speaking in English on this forum so please would you translate the comment you have added in French so that everybody can understand it. Thanks a lot. By the way, apologies that we do not all speak French. It would be nice if we could, but we cannot.
Définition
arrête ton char, locution
Sens Arrête ton baratin, ton bluff ! [Familier].
Anglais:” come off it ! ”
—————————————–
now question is , what “come off it” means?
ok, good morning yall….from super shiny LA:)
Good Morning Panos! Rise and shine!
ALL/Chorus: Put de Lime in de Coconut and Shake it all up
Put de Lime in de Coconut and Shake it all Up
“You don’t get it?”
“Arrete ton char crétin!”
“No, not the drugs, the coconut!”
“Just put the Lime in the Coconut for God’s sake and shut the f**k up!”
Good morning LA!!!!
While admittedly most commentators here tend to use some semblance of English, in my reading of comments on this blog, I have encountered multiple comments in French, Spanish, Portuguese, German, Russian, Korean, and Greek…(maybe some others I can’t remember?)… some were translated into English, many were not. This is the first time anyone has complained about it, to my knowledge.
Oooppss!!
Forgot Polish!!
Valery – as far as I know there has neither been a public announcement of contributing photographers to burn.01, nor any actual list for buying a copy. This from DAH the other day, here on burn: “we will post something soonest so that interested people can order Burn 01”
I believe ‘crétins’ was how Henri Cartier-Bresson envisaged the photographic herds of the future… i like it as a word but understand it is a little rude and can sound very arrogant to say it in French, but it is enjoyable word to pronounce as is ‘la crépuscule’ which happens to be my favourite light for taking pictures: twilight!
oops!
le crepuscule = twilight
Sidney Atkins: Put de Lime in de Coconut!
Sidney Atkins: Admittedly Wakati wafasiri wengi hapa huvaa kutumia baadhi semblance ya Kiingereza, katika kusoma yangu ya maoni juu ya blog hii, mimi kuwa wamekutana comments nyingi katika Kifaransa, Kihispania, Kireno, Kijerumani, Kirusi, Kikorea, na Kigiriki … (labda wengine siwezi ` t kumbuka)? … wengine walikuwa kutafsiriwa katika Kiingereza, watu wengi walikuwa si. Hii ni mara ya kwanza mtu ana walilalamika kuhusu hilo, kwa ufahamu wangu. Google it!
Sidney Atkins: Въпреки че несъмнено повечето коментатори тук са склонни да използват някакво подобие на английски език, в четене на моите коментари в този блог, аз се сблъскаха с множество коментари на френски, испански, португалски, немски, руски, корейски и гръцки … (може би някои други не мога да не си спомняш?) … някои са преведени на английски, много от тях не са били. Това е първият път, когато някой се оплаква за това, доколкото ми е известно. Въпреки че несъмнено повечето коментатори тук са склонни да използват някакво подобие на английски език, в четене на моите коментари в този блог, аз се сблъскаха с множество коментари на френски, испански, португалски, немски, руски, корейски и гръцки … (може би някои други не мога да не си спомняш?) … някои са преведени на английски, много от тях не са били. Това е първият път, когато някой се оплаква за това, доколкото ми е известно.Въпреки че несъмнено повечето коментатори тук са склонни да използват някакво подобие на английски език, в четене на моите коментари в този блог, аз се сблъскаха с множество коментари на френски, испански, португалски, немски, руски, корейски и гръцки … (може би някои други не мога да не си спомняш?) … някои са преведени на английски, много от тях не са били. Това е първият път, когато някой се оплаква за това, доколкото ми е известно.Въпреки че несъмнено повечето коментатори тук са склонни да използват някакво подобие на английски език, в четене на моите коментари в този блог, аз се сблъскаха с множество коментари на френски, испански, португалски, немски, руски, корейски и гръцки … (може би някои други не мога да не си спомняш?) … някои са преведени на английски, много от тях не са били. Това е първият път, когато някой се оплаква за това, доколкото ми е известно.Въпреки че несъмнено повечето коментатори тук са склонни да използват някакво подобие на английски език, в четене на моите коментари в този блог, аз се сблъскаха с множество коментари на френски, испански, португалски, немски, руски, корейски и гръцки … (може би някои други не мога да не си спомняш?) … някои са преведени на английски, много от тях не са били. Това е първият път, когато някой се оплаква за това, доколкото ми е известно.Въпреки че несъмнено повечето коментатори тук са склонни да използват някакво подобие на английски език, в четене на моите коментари в този блог, аз се сблъскаха с множество коментари на френски, испански, португалски, немски, руски, корейски и гръцки … (може би някои други не мога да не си спомняш?) … някои са преведени на английски, много от тях не са били. Това е първият път, когато някой се оплаква за това, доколкото ми е известно.Въпреки че несъмнено повечето коментатори тук са склонни да използват някакво подобие на английски език, в четене на моите коментари в този блог, аз се сблъскаха с множество коментари на френски, испански, португалски, немски, руски, корейски и гръцки … (може би някои други не мога да не си спомняш?) … някои са преведени на английски, много от тях не са били. Това е първият път, когато някой се оплаква за това, доколкото ми е известно.Въпреки че несъмнено повечето коментатори тук са склонни да използват някакво подобие на английски език, в четене на моите коментари в този блог, аз се сблъскаха с множество коментари на френски, испански, португалски, немски, руски, корейски и гръцки … (може би някои други не мога да не си спомняш?) … някои са преведени на английски, много от тях не са били. Това е първият път, когато някой се оплаква за това, доколкото ми е известно.
Sidney Atkins: 虽然无可否认大多数评论家在这里，我倾向于使用对这个博客的评论阅读一些英语假象，我遇到了法语，西班牙语，葡萄牙语，德语，多个评论俄语，韩语，希腊语…（也许有其他我可以’吨记得吗？）…有些人翻译成英文，很多人都没有。这是第一次有人抱怨它，我的知识。
Or as you speak English and I know you speak English would you prefer me to speak to you in English?
bobB: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx love xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx : )
bobB: beautiful! and for u…
I haven’t looked at the work on here for almost a year and I was alerted to Kerry’s story via a FB posting by Bob Black. I haven’t been on FB much either. One of the reasons I stopped viewing the contributions of Burn was because of the often vociferous harangue of some of the contributors to this blog.
And it seemed to me that too many of the contributors did not have much of an idea of the potency of photographic story telling and how that it does not need to be ‘high art’ to get its message across.
A story like Kerry’s is one of the bravest I have ever seen anywhere on the internet.
Suicide is one of the most devastating deaths, because there are always questions that can not be answered. It is also consistently under reported for even in these days of incredible transparency on most subjects this is one that under the journalistic code of ethics is not reported on because of the intensely personal nature of the subject matter.
For Kerry to put her stuff out there is one of the most lionhearted acts I have ever seen and I believe that if anyone has comments on the execution of the piece then they totally miss the point of it, this is a story THAT NEEDS TO BE TOLD and Kerry is actually the only one that could tell it.
It is her story and yet, the story of millions.
No Anthony RZ, I think you neatly describe what Stanley Greene was saying the other day, that the photographers of today maybe technically far better than those of yesteryear but most were lacking in compassion and humanity.
This is not the case with Kerry’s work and I personally would rather see less lofty ambition to conquer the gallery scene and more compassion any day.
Kerry I left a comment under your piece. And I would just like to say I wish you the Irish blessing. I am sure you know it, but the line that stays with me always is ‘May God always hold you in the palm of his hand’
It’s good to see you around Lisa, hope things are well.
LISA,
Goodonya’, well said.
Ditto from me to what Tom said.
Cheers,
yup, Lisa good to c u around:)
Well said Lisa, welcome back; stick around.
Mike.
MW,
RE: NY Times women photos. Give me a break… I doubt printing a photo of these women will make any difference to whether they are in danger or not. Let’s afford them some dignity and power – I’m pretty sure they know what they are doing in regards to allowing a photographer access to their lives. And if there are Taliban in the region, I’m sure they don’t need a photographer from the NY Times to let them know what’s going on. It’s their bravery that’s to be applauded. If everyone who ever faced oppressors just rolled over and stayed hidden because something bad MIGHT happen to them then the good of the world are just fucked. It’s easy to say “oh, this is their ‘culture'”, but it was also the culture in Nazi Germany to persecute Jews. Of course it’s a much more complex an issue than that, especially when it comes to changing it.
Too much armchair conspiracy thinking going on here, and accusations of propaganda. Propaganda is a pretty stiff term – one should be pretty certain of their claims when bandying this term about. Read the Time piece (and the editor’s note on selecting the cover) and look at Jodi Bieber’s evocative photos first before condemning.
Honestly what I think is a shame is that it does take a magazine cover such as the Time one, even potentially manipulative/manipulated as it may or may not be, for people to sit up and take notice, maybe pull themselves away from Real Housewives for a minute to think about the plight of others.
Yes Charles, perhaps you’re right to trust the government. And major media (cough, judith miller, cough, wmd, cough cough). But enough about politics.
I was doing a lot of thinking about the China in Transition slideshow in the other thread and suddenly remembered that I had worked on a similar project last winter. A poor man’s China project, granted, since I didn’t have the means to actually go to China. But still, funny I didn’t think about it, at least not consciously when I was critiquing the other work. Too many blows to the head, I guess. Though some would no doubt argue, not enough.
Anyway, I thought it would be good to revisit that work for multimedia practice. So a little Photoshop fakery, some motion graphics mumbo jumbo, a not or two to Tarkovsky for good measure, a humble video outro, all accompanied by an audio track which can, I think, accurately be called Brooklyn House (sorry David Bowen) and Voila.
Still got a ways to go before the real thing, obviously, but the workflow’s coming together.
MW,
:):) No, I don’t trust our gov or media, but nor do I totally dismiss them out of hand either. Just striving for some balance. Maybe I’m a fool. Or maybe it’s best for each of us to live our lives as morally as we can and rub that off on each other. It’s a slow process but a good one.
Will check out your piece. And yes, enough of politics.
best,
CP
Lisa: Yes, the vociferous harangue on Burn is extra-ordinary at times – but it is often balanced by the beauty, ideas and joy expressed as well. Burn is like a family in some ways and the closeness sometimes makes us prickly. New entrants can be ‘tested’ or poked at with nit-picking comments but I also found this on Lightstalkers when I contributed on there – people jumped on my back and heckled me in the first few weeks, sometimes I think because they had nothing better to do, some just didn’t like me I guess. Anyway, it became easier after a while.
One thing I am finding annoying is people who answer comments that are not directed at them – jump in to answer questions specifically directed at someone else – to add their 2 cents when they don’t know the context. This has happened again today. On the other hand, it is very easy to be misinterpreted in any language or any conversation – written or verbal – plus there are many ‘artist-types’ on here who are more sensitive in some ways. I count myself among them although I’m schizophrenic when it comes to photojournalism and art.
Anyway, lovely to ‘see’ you Lisa! I hope all is good with you!
Charles: We were discussing the cover of TIME magazine. The New York Times today also began covering the same story (surprise, surprise). I take it we are all up to speed on why? Julian Assange and the Afghan War Reports… There is excellent discussion on why the Time cover is widely regarded as propaganda on numerous threads and blogs that are well worth reading (particularly Huffington Post and BagNews – lots of great comments on there). I do believe after 9 years of war in Afghanistan and given the additional 37 billion dollars just okayed this week for a continuance of the war after the biggest leak of government secret documents in US history, that we can expect more propaganda to come…
Propaganda – A definition (from Wikipedia)
Propaganda is a form of communication that is aimed at influencing the attitude of a community toward some cause or position. As opposed to providing information that is impartial or unbiased, propaganda in its most basic sense, presents information primarily to influence an audience. Propaganda often presents facts selectively to encourage a particular synthesis – or uses loaded messages to produce an emotional rather than rational response to the information presented. The desired result is a change of the attitude toward the subject in the target audience to further a political agenda…
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/07/29/time-magazine-cover-expla_n_663617.html
JENNY,
Oh yeah… sorry, some anonymous poster on Huffington Post says it’s propaganda so it must be propoganda.I think you might want to lay off the internet a bit. :)
Not buying it. I’m not saying the Time or NY Times piece is right. But I don’t think there’s an agenda beyond the magazine (a fairly conservative one) questioning what might happen if we leave Afghanistan vis a vis women’s rights. Their conclusion might be wrong (to you and me – I think we should get the fuck out of there – about eight years ago – our beloved Obama obviously feels differently), but it is just a conclusion. And Afghanistan happens to be a hot topic at the moment, and hot topics sell papers.
Sorry, having just read Hans Fallada’s masterpiece “Every Man Dies Alone” a novel about life and resistance in Nazi Berlin, I think we should be really careful about labeling media outlets propaganda. Wrong, asleep at the wheel, wacko, in cahoots with pr people, etc but once we can prove the government actually hands on manipulating independent media concerns (left, right or center) then lets shout propaganda.
Afghanistan is a messy fucked up situation. The Soviets “Vietnam” and rapidly becoming our “Vietnam 2.” People have suffered there, still suffer there, and will continue to suffer there no matter what the US does. Maybe I’ve been propagandized by the Kite Runner, but I can’t think of much worse in this life than living under the Taliban.
I’m re-posting this as is seemed to have become buried under Jenny’s plethora of remarks…:-)
Hi DAH,
You made this comment under MCB’s essay on China. Perhaps you could elaborate…I think myself and others would be interested in hearing about what this “big step” could be. I don’t know about others here on Burn, but I feel that Michael’s work can definitely stand with some of the best color photographers in Magnum. Is it this idea of becoming an “author”? Again, sometimes this term really confuses me because it seems that so often it is used regarding certain photographers whose work that is already clearly heavily influenced by others, even members of Magnum who are all supposedly distinctly different and unique “authors”. Perhaps this is a point of discussion and would love to hear what others on Burn think as well…..
“he knows what he wants and who he thinks he should be, but he also knows that he has a step to go..a big step….this should be interesting for all of you…to see where Mike goes from here….i have watched Mike since college days…always thought he just might make it…Mike is at the swing point….let’s hope he knocks the ball out of the park…”
David_Bacher: Sorry for the plethora of remarks regarding the cover of Time magazine. I hope will be further discussed. Seems like a great topic of discussion – the independent vision and authorship!
Charles: Each of us is entitled to our own opinion. I have no problem with the story and am fully against anyone that would wish to harm a woman in any way whatsoever wherever it should take place in the world. But after 10 years of working in journalism and as an editor, I don’t need to read anything to know what the cover of Time is or to support my own understanding of it which came to me, independently of discussing it with anyone, the very moment that I saw the words attached to the image. It is the combination of those words with the image. Nothing to do with the story. The story has, in fact, been taken out of context in order to produce it.
What we have is a picture of a woman with her nose cut off and the words next to pose a question: What will happen if we leave Afghanistan? Using those specific words phrased in that way provides an immediate answer to the question by looking at the image much as I believe it was Michael (mw) who did the same thing earlier on this thread by answering his own question which rather wound up Imants. If the words next to the picture had had said: “Should we go or should we stay?” it would not be answering the question immediately. It is a picture plus a statement that encourages people to okay the continuance of the war and not to think independently because the question has already been answered for them.
This is very poor journalism indeed – and the very opposite of quality journalism on a cover. And it upsets me deeply because it is copying a National Geographic cover and using it to promote war.
I want to second David Bacher’s question – about the “big step”. I’ll might have to investigate on michaels work on the internet to understand. Or the discussion happens under Michael’s essay?
Unfortunately dialog transforms into a monologue…
yesyes – michael is due for a leaping big step and all that,
while my 21 month old has taken his first step with an old digi cam.
http://www.bophoto.co.uk/wpblog/?p=299
EPF 2011?
:o)
Good subject for discussion, David Bacher: What would be the “next step” for a photographer like Michael Christopher Brown? But I doubt if DAH will be free to join us until after his family vacation. What do other Burnians think?
And thanks to David and Thomas for saying it like it is. Seems we’ve gotten bogged down here of late. It’s time for a shift in subject and for other voices to come to the table. Enough about Afghanistan already. Seems like everyone’s had a chance to say their piece. Sometimes we just have to agree to disagree and move on.
Patricia
Sometimes we just have to agree to disagree and move on.Yea the usual caper but in the case of wars there is no moving on until the shooting is over.
Jenny, I was just kidding you know :-)
All,
Yes, I guess my main question/concern is regarding this “Big Step” as DAH remarked concerning MCB’s work. Out of all honesty I would love to know what is the criteria for taking this step? Is it producing work that is completely new and has not been seen before? Perhaps it’s finding one’s personal touch and then repeating it over and over? Yes, maybe best to wait until David comes back from his family vacation.
After looking at all pictures of Michael on his website, I was was pretty impressed. There are some stronger pictures than the ones he submitted to the EPF. Actually, in comparison to his body of work, the EPF submission is only the tip of the iceberg.
That brought the “big step” thing into more context for me.
I think Michael is a great photographer and storyteller. To have a breakthrough, there is only a big story needed. That could be an assignment or a story he finds on his way through China.
Looking at the big names – what brought them to have this big step?
Patricia: I so agree with you! Let us hear more of your voice too and all the others singing out on here! I am so excited!
DAVID – (ALAN HARVEY) I would like to hear your opinion on the cover of TIME magazine generally but also, specifically, whether given that it is highly reminiscent of the National Geographic’s cover 25 years ago that is already seared into the minds of people across America, whether you feel it is an affront to National Geographic. That cover had a neutral title Along Afghanistan’s Border – TIME’s cover has “What happens if we leave Afghanistan?” and therefore appears to have used a former National Geographic cover to create war propaganda.
David B
The kid’s obviously a genius.
David Bacher: : ) Nice topic!
gordon
must be his mothers side :o)
it’s great though.. he really picked it up with little direction, although the less flattering ones of papa and mama will stay on the HD for now.
david B and thomas..
i’ll add my curiosity to the mix and would enjoy hearing what david thinks the next step might be..
organic as photographic life seems to develop, it must be something in the pipeline for michael of which he is at least partially aware.
when working hard and keeping busy the next step sometimes seems obvious.. the barriers to that step frustrating.. that’s where i am right now :o)
I get the feeling that what DAH was referring to is the glue that will hold Mike Brown’s work together and/or push it further. His photos of China are wonderful (some more than others) but also feel really disjointed as a whole. But you can see the holes where he can begin to dive deeper. It may be partially an editing thing, or as Mike comments today under his thread a getting more personal thing, or getting more focused (or less?), getting closer. I don’t know, just my stab at it. Interested as well to hear what DAH meant.
Burn: A Community in Crisis! I don’t get it. If you don’t like a topic or consistently don’t like what an individual has to say, why not just ignore that writing? If you have something to say, or that you want to discuss, why not just discuss it? If your topic and/or your take on it is compelling enough, you’ll probably get some response. I, for example, almost never click on links to YouTube music videos and if I see twenty links in a row, probably don’t even read them. Personally, I like discussions about high art and different people’s strategies for achieving it. But it never occurred to me to tell anyone not to discuss whatever they want to discuss. Each to their own. Whatever floats your boat. What’s not to love?
Along those lines, Patricia, what’s up with your video efforts? On last report you had purchased a camera and some software? How’s it going? Anything to show? What are your thoughts on multimedia now that you have more experience?
Regarding David Bacher’s excellent question, ‘m always curious to hear what David Harvey has to say about any subject, even if I don’t initially care about the topic, as is the case with Next Steps. David is one of those writers who makes any topic he cares about interesting for others, always bringing a depth of perspective that opens up new ways of seeing the world. High art at its finest.
Now I’ll risk censure by going way off topic. Well, not necessarily. Every now and then people voice concern about what the young folk are up to artistically these days. Well, if you want to see one, isolated example, this is my daughter’s new movie. Not sure how representative of “young people” it is. But I think I’d enjoy it no matter who made it. And if you don’t want to click on it, by all means don’t. If you do though, have patience. It’s a very large file.
Wow mw. I love this message your daughter is sharing. From a young woman who is experiencing all of the pressure of what is presented in the media today about what is perfection and what needs to be changed in order to be acceptable…
Thanks for sharing this. It was stunning. Tell her how much I enjoyed it and that I so encourage her to keep sharing with her peers the importance of looking at the whole package, and that true beauty comes from within.
David B, your son’s photos remind me of my 7 year old grandson’s shots. At Christmas I passed along my Canon point and shoot and his shots are so amazing. Just like your son, on his eye level–so revealing.
Lee
@ ALL:
Of course it is propaganda, even worse… the title in TIME magazine is not a question (there is no “?”) it is an affirmative sentence!!
Below i post a direct link to the whole bunch of pictures of the photographer, 13 at all.
For me the serie is really great if I forget forget the title (hard to do, after this great discussion, here oin BURN).
Powerful shots and portraits.
http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,2007161_2170305,00.html
P.
MICHAEL WEBSTER
Thanks for asking about my intention to move into multimedia. As I posted earlier, I found that trying to take video was too difficult for my gimpy hands, even while using a tripod. Yes, I could do a straight shot but anything dealing with zooming in or even good panning was impossible. But that’s OK because I am loving my new camera for taking stills. The quality of the resolution, improved autofocus and low light capabilities are stunning. All is well.
Look forward to seeing your daughter’s video but not now. It’s a gorgeous summer Sunday here in Detroit and sitting at a laptop is not where it’s at. I’m sure you understand…
Patricia
LISA HOGBEN,
Thank you for your lovely, lovely words on my photo essay.
Your comments, and the knowledge that this essay brought you back to BURN after almost a year literally brought tears to my eyes and I’m very grateful to you for taking the time to articulate your thoughts so eloquently.
If you’re around when I’m in Australia next month, I’d love to meet with you and I hope it’s not another year before we hear from you again in these-here-parts.
Kerry
PATRICIO –
You are right! There is no question mark on there at all which means TIME is presenting a foregone conclusion – what would happen if America were to pull-out. It is worse than I thought. Thank you for pointing that out.
IMANTS…
“the Taliban were the good guys when they got stuck into the Soviets/Russians”
Wrong. The Taliban did not exist during the Soviet occupation. They came into existence after the Soviets left the country… and following the Civil War in Afghanistan.
And also, I hate to state the obvious, but stupid policies and political maneuvering by one country towards another does not say anything about whether that country thinks well of the other country, much less its ruling “government.” Saying the U.S. thought the Taliban were good guys is stupid on so many levels it’s hard not to think that you were maybe a little drunk or stoned when you posted it. Maybe a little too much emotional rhetoric? I’ll forgive that.
Sorry Patricia, I must have missed you post about problems shooting video. And thanks Lee. Funny, I never gave any thought as to what the story was about, at least not on that level. I just got wrapped up in marveling how it is put together. Obvious though, now that you mention it. Recognizing that mechanics-related blind spot reminded me of Kurosawa’s comments on the images of the water weeds in Solaris; for me the most enduring image in the film. Kurosawa, however, marveled at how difficult it must have been for Tarkovsky to film underwater plants without getting distracting reflections from the sky. With Chloe’s movie, I was so amazed by the multiple means with she successfully used to tell the story that I gave no thought to the story itself.
On a related topic, I’ve found Tarkovsky’s thoughts about multimedia to be very valuable. Of course he was talking about cinema, but his beliefs, particularly regarding method, often apply to other arts as well. Take this for instance:
“Before passing into general use, however discoveries of methods and means have to come about as the natural and only way for an artist, using his own language, to communicate as fully as possible his own perception of the world. The artist never looks for methods as such, for the sake of aesthetics; he is forced, painfully, to devise them as a means of imparting faithfully his –author’s– view of reality.
…And so the discovery of a method becomes the discovery of someone who has acquired the gift of speech. And at that point we may speak of the birth of an image; that is, of a revelation.
…If a skillful craftsman uses highly developed modern means to speak of some subject which does not touch him personally, and if he has a certain taste, he can for a time take his audiences in. However, it will quickly become clear that his film has not lasting significance; sooner or later time inexorably shows up the hollowness of any work that is less than the expression of a unique, personal worldview. For artistic creation is not just a way of formulating information that exists objectively, merely requiring a few professional skills. In the end it is the very form of the artist’s existence, his sole means of expression, and his alone. And the limp word, ‘search’, clearly does not apply to a triumph over a muteness that demands unrelieved superhuman effort.
…A work becomes dated as a result of the conscious effort to be expressive and contemporary; these are not things to be achieved: they have to be in you.”
I that goes a long way towards explaining why so much multimedia leaves us cold. Too often, I think, it is approached as a fashion, something that simply must be done, rather than as an organic tool that’s simply necessary to communicate, or at least enhance the presentation of one’s vision.
Saying the U.S. thought the Taliban were good guys is stupid on so many levels it’s hard not to think that you were maybe a little drunk or stoned when you posted it. Maybe a little too much emotional rhetoric? I’ll forgive that.
Just shows what a nasty prick you really are, derogative remarks etc. What a little weed of a character you must be, get a life
“The artist never looks for methods as such, for the sake of aesthetics; he is forced, painfully, to devise them as a means of imparting faithfully his author’s view of reality.” ~ Tarkovsky
Thank you mw. This partially explains why so much contemporary ‘art’ and ‘imagery’ leaves me cold. So many ‘artists’ do not look to devise their own methods but faithfully look to others and superimpose their discoveries and view’s of reality onto their own. It explains why a great deal of art appears to have either been created by a pack of clones – by ‘artists’ who never found their own heart and souls. It occurs to me it could simply be related to excess study of other’s ‘art’ rather than a ‘discovery’ of their own? Soul-less contemporary ‘art’ is highly fashionable – art students in countries as far flung as India and Thailand are faithfully re-creating it now. ‘Fashion’ is the antithesis of ‘art’.
12:56 am in LaLaLandia…
Although I quoted Tarkovsky at length above in the context of method, of multimedia, his thoughts on the subject are primarily about authorship and how any particular method is subservient to the author’s integrity of intention. Having read DAH for nearly a year now, I find much of Tarkovsky’s ideas on authorship resonant with DAH’s. If I were to speculate on the answer to David Bacher’s “Big Step” question (and apparently I were), I’d guess it has something to do with authorship.
I didn’t say anything in the other thread because there’s so much I don’t know about the photographer’s base knowledge and intentions, but I was uncomfortable with his methods, with his using weird film and not looking through the viewfinder. One one hand, there is integrity in choosing a method and sticking with it. On the other, the possibility exists that it’s little more than a gimmick. Personally, as someone who is not averse to using methods outside the mainstream, I wonder about the issue of control. For example, if one is using film that is known to cause color aberrations, can the photographer predict what those aberrations will be? Did Michael Christopher Brown know that there would be a weird purple swatch in the lower right hand corner of that first picture in his essay or did it just come out that way? Does that matter or is the editing skill equally important? Or in the Tarkovskyan context, how much does the author control the method and how much is left to chance? If it is left to chance, if the authorship behind the method is weak, will it not endure if the use of weird results from poorly constructed cameras goes out of fashion?
LISA HOGBEN…
pleased to see you back here…i am curious about one thing however…why would you stop viewing the essays because you might not like the comments??…reading the comments as far as i can figure is optional and most readers of Burn do not click onto comments..in any case, welcome back…
cheers, david
mw, i think there are those of us that like using film in all it’s (un)predictability *and* weirdness regardless of what’s in or out of fashion..it’s not about fashion but it’s often about the process as well as the results.
i’m unsure about shooting from the hip though.
i like seeing what the photographer saw, their perspective, and i guess that it can sometimes seem an excuse for not being brave enough or flexible enough to get the image you want with intent.
i’m not suggesting that michael does it for those reasons because he’s obviously skilled enough to get exactly what he wants, however he wants, i really enjoyed his essay, the more you watch it the more it grows on you.
it feels like you’re getting a very intimate and personal view of the country.
i’ve just read ‘Nothing to Envy’ by Barbara Demick about North Korea and it fitted in well.
(out of interest does anyone know of any photographers who have been allowed to work there?)
and yes, i think the editing skill is as important..that’s your eye as much as when you click the shutter so maybe the shooting from hip can be irrelevant.
Vicky, yes, and keep in mind I phrased all that as questions. I don’t know the answers and even if I do lean one way in general, I know it doesn’t apply to everyone.
I wasn’t thinking of film being unpredictable, but poorly constructed cameras. I’m way low on the totem pole of film experts here, but I always thought one of its great strengths was its predictability. Use tri-x when you want this look, Velvia when you want that, no?
I think it’s fair to that poorly constructed cameras are fashionable these days. I see ever more variety of them for sale in museum gift shops and trendy retail outlets. That’s not to say one can’ do great work with fashionable means. More likely, those cameras are fashionable because people did great work with them.
Again, I find the question of control interesting, particularly as it relates to authorship. If you take enough random pictures, random quality and/or composition-wise, then find interesting compositions through editing, does that qualify as authorship? I’m inclined to think it might, but am honestly asking the question without knowing the answer.
MW:
i thing you would do well to watch Chris Marker’s film on Andrei, as it allows Andrei to escape the bindings of language….respectfully, i think you’ve locked him into a corner in which he does not deserve (either through his films or his writing)…frankly, you’ve missed a large part of the essence of andrei’s…
to wit: do you know the story of his loosing the script for Rublev in the back of taxi just prior to principle shooting….or they he had to re-shoot, in entirely, Zone (stalker)…though he famously hated ‘experiment’, he relied a great deal on the spiritual and aesthetic importance of serendipity….he once famous spoke of the notion of ‘control’ when it came to actors….or when the house burned down during the last shot of Sacrifice only to discover the film charge was stuck through the entire shoot….and that entire scene had to be redone, including the rebuilding of the home….
ALL acts are acts of fortuitous grace and the more comfortable someone is with their craft, the more attuned to that they are…..though tarkovsky was a fanatic of control, he allowed the grace of both accident and unexpected compel the nature of the work….icons beneath the moss-hair’d rivers, a bottle of milk arc’d over the lip of a table…a howl in the woods like tarzan (which came from his son, not his idea)….etc etc etc….
allow artists to breath and you shall be oxygenated by their work….
*a fanatic of control, he allowed the grace of both accident and unexpected compel the nature of the work*
i understand that.
the unpredictability of film is one of the things that us control freaks find so freeing.
mw
i’m always working things out as i speak, often reaching new conclusions as i go…nothing is static.
:)
poorly constructed cameras have been popular since the 60’s i think….and yes often it’s a gimmick, a fad, but some stay with them and do amazing work…it’s when it becomes more about the camera than the pictures that i get turned off.
BOB and MW,
Tarkovsky was my savior in college. I still recall seeing Stalker the first time it came around (’83?). Changed my life and the way I look at things.
Best,
CP
VICKY SLATER
First of all, China today and North Korea are very, very different countries. Forty or fifty years ago there may have been closer parallels, but the societies have evolved in totally different directions, and China is far richer, far more open, far more cosmopolitan. That said, I applaud your reading of Barbara Demick’s book, which I evaluate highly. Just keep in mind that the ones who fled are not necessarily a totally representative cross section of all North Koreans.
Photography we outsiders get to see of North Korea generally comes from photographers ‘disguised’ as tourists who are led on a well-worn and totally programmed path… often they manage to steal some interesting shots along the way, but unavoidably much of what they bring back is of familiar monuments. So you can’t really say these photographers were “allowed” to work there. Still, if you’re interested in North Korea, or photography as propaganda and anti-propaganda, their work is worth looking at. (I won’t give the all web address URL’s because this post may get blocked with multiple links, but you should be able to find work by these people pretty easily:
On Flickr, check out these names:
Eric Lafforgue, Kernbeisser
On Photo Shelter:
Tomas Van Houtryve (He is particularly good, I think)
BURN’s own Sean Gallagher fits in this category, and some of his photos were posted on BURN (see archives)
One of the more interesting sets of ‘stolen’ tourist pictures was by a Russian tourist, taken in 2006. The site is in Russian only, I don’t know his name, but you should be able to navigate the site to see the pictures: http://www.fishmonger.ru/06-07-27/
There is a photo book published by Chronicle by Mark Edward Harris called “Inside North Korea”. I don’t particularly recommend it because aside from the obligatory Pyongyang tourist shots pretty much everyone else has taken, most of the pictures aren’t ‘inside’ at all, but taken from outside the borders with long telephoto lenses. But if you’re really into this topic, maybe give it a look.
In terms of working photojournalists actually “allowed” to work in North Korea, the only ones I know of are two Japanese: Magnum’s Hiroji Kubota, who has worked in North Korea in the past, and Takashi Itoh (an old friend of mine from environmental movements in Japan), who to my knowledge has had more real on the ground access to daily life in more areas of the country than any other photographer. His site is unfortunately only in Japanese, but you can navigate through the pictures:
http://www.jca.apc.org/~earth/sub7.html
However, by far the best visual portrayal of North Korean society, by people who had permission and amazing access, is a 2004 documentary film titled “A State of Mind” directed by Daniel Gordon and by producer Nicholas Bonner (both Brits). The film follows two North Korean child gymnasts and their families for over eight months during training for the 2003 Pyongyang mass games. This is absolutely “must-see” for anyone with an interest in North Korea.
Cheers,
Hey Bob, I think we must be talking by each other, especially if I give the impression that I’ve understood a large part of Tarkovsky’s work. Man, that would be presumptuous. I’m just enjoying the effort. Can’t imagine what corner you think I’ve locked him into? Since it’s unlikely David will set up a dialogue on Tarkovsky, perhaps we could Skype sometime? Since last we spoke I’ve watched Rublev once and Mirror a couple times and Solaris again for the first time after six years, and am slowly getting through the book. I’d love to learn more about what you know and think. And yea, Charles, it’s Stalker that set me off down this road. Incredible piece of work. If that’s all you’ve seen, you should definitely consider Mirror and Solaris.
Actually, I wasn’t thinking about Tarkovsky when I brought up the question of control. That’s my own hobby horse. And as I said, I haven’t drawn any general conclusions, just find the question interesting. But if you want to bring Tarkovsky into it, you are probably aware of his Polaroids, probably much more so than I. Might they be an argument for the artistic integrity of the unpredictability of imperfect cameras or film? Or do you think he knew exactly what the end product would look like when he took those snaps? I wouldn’t put it past him, but wouldn’t bet on it either.
I don’t think it’s possible for me to deprive any real artist of oxygen. That’s more a self-inflicted kinda thing.
Tarkovsky Polaroids.
Sidney, I really appreciate you taking the time to post such a helpful reply, thank you very much.
I’ve just ordered “A State of Mind” and it’s led me on to lots of other things too and I’ll be looking at all of those you’ve mentioned.
Also “Crossing the Line” looks interesting from an entirely different point of view but made by the same people.
The link to your friend’s site doesn’t seem to be working though….?
VICKY,
Sorry for giving you an out-of-date link to Itoh Takashi’s North Korean pictures!
Here are links that are currently working:
http://www.jca.apc.org/~earth/sub7-1.html (2003~2007)
http://www.jca.apc.org/~earth/sub7-2.html (2008~ )
ALL: Mike (Michael Christopher Brown) has responded to everyone’s questions and comments on his essay ‘China’ in case anyone missed them.
——
I do not love you as if
you were salt-rose, or topaz,
or the arrow of carnations the fire shoots off.
I love you
as certain dark things are to be loved, in secret,
between the shadow and the soul…
~ Neruda
Another link with pictures from North Korea…
http://www.hiroshiwatanabe.com/HW%20website%20Folder/Pages/DPRK/DPRK%20thumbnails.html
click on this video & good morning :)
http://www.facebook.com/#!/video/video.php?v=1233896667628&comments&ref=notif¬if_t=video_comment
THODORIS,
Thanks for the link. I hadn’t seen this photographer’s work before.
never mind..broken link
The ability to tell…
You don’t have to wonder after reading Neil Burgess http://www.epuk.org/Opinion/961/for-gods-sake-somebody-call-it
once again, click on my new video below :)
PANOS: Now THAT is what I call art.
DAVID: I was just re-reading your email and must say that if I were to return to the African-Muslim community where I lived before, I would again focus on the young people who are overcoming difficult pasts and impossible circumstances to find themselves as artists. Not at all easy in a world where the average wage is a dollar a day but remarkably, they’re are some doing it…
Part2
Guys, I thought some of you might be interested about an interview with Carolyn Drake we filmed recently at Third Floor Gallery:
Some telling going on there, plus a second part is to come.
http://www.snagfilms.com/films/title/shooting_robert_king/
shooting robert king.. 15 years, 3 wars..
David B
Just spent the last 1hr plus viewing Robert King. I’m numb. Thanks for the link.
David B
it is heavy cost. thanks for the link.
DAH:
Have you heard of http://www.fotokids.org ?
Just wanted to point you to it – I think it’s a wonderful project and maybe there’s some opportunity to tie in with your Circus project.
gordon n thomas.
the kind film is great.. dark, provocative.. had it all from the naivety of a young snapper to the madness which ensues when it becomes a more stable income.. perhaps the up’s n downs..
he seems to have settled into a nice rhythm with his life, despite himself.
i’m going to watch it again with beate today.. the crossovers between different subjects in photography are there in the way he starts out and ends up, i think.
anyway – yesyes – a very interesting little film.
:o)
David Bowen
yeah, it is great. I rarely could not stop looking a movie like here.
I started at midnight looking, but it was too interesting to stop.
Carsten
great project..
i used to run something similar called ‘pigs can fly’ where we got the arts council of england to fund 5 of us to teach inner city school kids darkroom and photography.
worked a dream and wish the internet had been around then.. and digital photography was cheap enough.
Thomas
there are real moments of terror as well as times it is uncomfortable to watch his carelessness, yet it’s in the conclusions to the film that i found it really interesting – particularly his attitude to why we choose a certain subject, and whether the subject changes us fundamentally or reinforces who we already are..
in other words, does the subject make us who we are, or do we find a subject that tells us who we are.. a subject that fits like a tailored coat….
i think a solid mixture of the two.
d
Joni – thanks for posting the vid with carolyn – i deeply her work and how she works – and congrats for showing her at the gallery!
Also, Joni, are there any small print offers from Carolyn?
happy birthday to you.
hmm,hmm,hmm,hmm
hmmmmmm
hmmmmmm
blush blush
open last minute nyc burn photographer call to say hey to brian frank and break Naan with him – today at 1:30 – send me an email if you want to know where…
@emcd: there is a limited edition boxset (11×14” prints if I remember right) and a limited edition print for the show. Both are in the hundreds of dollars, but there’s also the possibility of getting a t-shirt of the show for £8 :o) I can post you more info soon, as I’ve been away on holiday and I’m meeting Bartek tomorrow about everything that has happened in my absence (I guess I’ll see the boxset!).
But yeah, Carolyn Drake is one of my most admired young docu shooters out there. I can’t believe she doesn’t have a book out yet. Did I hear for the first time about her in roadtrips around 2007?
David Bowen, yep, good film – in the beginning you genuinely fear for his safety – by the end you wish him some semblance of normality.
Mike.
Michael Christopher Brown has kindly posted answers to many questions asked in the comments under his China essay.
Mike.
An example of a multimedia piece that incorporates still pictures, music and poetry:
http://www.vqronline.org/articles/2010/summer/dawes-ashes
Happy Birthday Erica! I hope you’re doing something special today. May this year be your best year yet!
Thodoris Tzalavras,
Thanks for the link. Truly strong photography and poetry at its best… stories created by people who have the ability to do that take you into… even if you were absolutely indifferent at the beginning, and didn’t even plan to be taken into…
Thodoris, thanks, but I think one could use that as an instructive lesson in what not to do with multimedia.
Theodoris: Thank you for the link!
I am really looking forward to seeing Andre Lambertson’s work from a year spent in Haiti after the earthquake. I think it will be amazing. I love the spoken voice and poetry read aloud touches me on a very deep level. The images were very sensitive and penetrated different worlds, people’s lives and touched on many connected issues. I had to ignore the music and the Ken Burns effect which did irritate, but once I got into it, the effect was so powerful that I was in floods of tears. I wish I had been able to see it on a larger screen. I saw so many worlds in that one piece and my own sadness too. It made the Jukka piece appear very immature and superficial. And most of all, unhelpful to anyone (except perhaps the author).
wellwellwell
wind rain sun cloud..
florø is the most beautiful place.
god, i hate ken burns and his effect.
CARSTEN…
i did not know about Photo Kids…i will let Marie Arago know about this program if she does not know already…there are many programs like this, so it should give us a fine opportunity to feature the work of these creative eager young minds…many thanks for the link….
ERICA…
Happy Birthday…sorry i am not in nyc to toast you…
THODORIS…JENNY
i wondered whatever happened to Andre Lambertson…he was such a promising photographer at one time….i was a little disappointed in the actual photography on this mm piece,but was moved by Kwame poetry… i see no relationship between what Andre has done and the Jukka essay…imo on a scale of 1 to 10 , Andre is a 2 and Jukka is a 10 in terms of “living it, breathing it, being it” and just sheer raw talent….
DAH,
have you come across these guys http://www.youngphotographersalliance.org/
David AH…
I didn’t post the link as an answer to Jukka’s essay.
I posted it as something relevant to the theme of this thread… how to tell a story…
Since you compared them though, I have to say that between the two I prefer Andre’s…
Both pieces have gravity, albeit brought on through totally different approaches and through the use of very different story telling devices, but in the end the poetry accompanying Andre’s piece lends it the power to go way deeper for me than Jukka’s punch in the face approach…
If I were to compare Jukka’s essay with anything (well, the subject he chose to take on, that is) I would compare it to Requiem for a Dream… I know, it’s like comparing a painting to a sculpture, but both take on the exact same issue: obsession and addiction…
As far as the “…“living it, breathing it, being it”…” goes, it only matters to me after the actual work has made me want to know more about the photographer, his process /approach, background etc… it is something that inevitably will alter (one way or the other) my perception of the work and its value, but it can only happen if I’m really-really intrigued by the work itself…
DAVID – I was also not blown away by the photography in the multimedia piece but boy, did he get us into the subject in a deep way in one short multimedia piece! Wow! And Kwame’s poetry was great wasn’t it? And that voice! Wow again! I can’t wait to see Andre’s Haiti work!!! If he was a promising photographer ‘at one time’, it must be can be AGAIN! This is a wonderful find! Jukka certainly needs a mentor by the look of it. He is SO lucky to have found you.
Theodoris – I agree with you.
And I pray that all people will get the chance, and ALL the help they need, to discover ways “to live, breathe and be…” that is of benefit to themselves, friends, family and the broader community…
Thank you for the birthday wishes! had lunch with Brian Frank and preston and a couple other non burn photogs…
DAH – thank you for the virtual toast, we’ll do a real one soon.
i just took a peek at the section in the develop library that will list these types of kids with cameras programs; some of the listed are not for children but are outreach to other sectors, but in total there are 65 programs listed in the section. hopefully it can serve as a good resource for Circus. if Marie needs any info before develop launches and the library is live, i think she knows she can ask.
Joni – will keep my eyes open for more info…
DAH wrote,
“i wondered whatever happened to Andre Lambertson…he was such a promising photographer at one time….i was a little disappointed in the actual photography….imo on a scale of 1 to 10 , Andre is a 2 and Jukka is a 10 in terms of “living it, breathing it, being it” and just sheer raw talent….
Curious, because I take an almost opposite view.
Andre’s images were compelling and, despite the painful use of Ken Burns effect, made me feel something for
the people presented.
The Jukka series was, to me, no more than watching something like “Dog the Bounty Hunter” or any similar
‘reality’ based TV show where I only watch out of curiosity but feel nothing for the characters
nor, in this case, the photographic style employed.
IAN AITKEN..
no i have not…nor have i heard of any of the founders or directors…do you know them? seems to have a good purpose for sure….i would have to study the whole thing more to find out exactly who they are and what they want to do,but looks good on the surface anyway…
THODORIS…MTOMALTY…JENNY
we will just have to agree to disagree on this one…i see nothing special at all in the Andre Lambertson pictures….i just do not know what you are seeing special here ..or maybe you are simply moved by the poetry…i was as well..but the pictures??? ..by the way, of the EPF finalists , the jurors (i was not one of them) also put Jukka very near the top..at the same time, i can surely see why some would not like Jukka at all…and it is radically different in purpose and in tone from the work of any of the three of you….
Jenny, i do not mentor Jukka…as far as i know, i have never met him…i only know this body of work and his original A Kind of Error published on Burn last year…Jukka was supposed to come to the Look3 event in Charlottesville as an invited emerging photographer guest…he had either visa problems or other problems which kept him from attending…the only one of 100 invited not to make it…i suspect Jukka is as deeply involved in this world as it appears…i will be pleasantly surprised if he makes it out…that takes nothing away from the power of his images which are as real as anything i have seen from anyone lately…
DAH
I must say, I’m with mtomalty and the others here. Dog the bounty hunter and the other trashy reality shows that pass for entertainment on TV is a fair comparison for what is going on in Jukka’s stuff.
“living it”, gimme a break, Andre is spending a year in Haiti in a collaboration with a poet. I was much more moved by his piece than Jukkas.
I don’t know if Jukka is “living it” or not. However, I don’t think this representation of his life is likely any more real than a “romanticized” version. I’m sure there is a much softer, more normal side to Jukka. It is just that the trashy shit is more fascinating for the rest of us to watch, like voyeurs, and as such perhaps an easy route for Jukka, cheap shots if you will.
Looking for something “special”. Well, I guess that depends on what special consists of. Does it consist of edgy artsy stuff that is always different and new, leading edge, or does it consist of stuff that works well, and is done well.
GORDON L…
based on all that you write and what you choose to celebrate photographically , i am not surprised this is the way you think on Jukka…….and of course a year in Haiti is to be commended from a sheer effort standpoint…however , Gordon, you please give me a break…any way you slice it, poetry or no poetry, year or no year, just very few if any really fine pictures that go over any documentary bar imo…
Well, since we’re taking sides, I’m more with David on this (but also kind of on the fence and the fence is in a different pasture). I generally agree with the accolades for Jukka’s photographs, just don’t like the nature of the storytelling (will try to expand on that later, since you asked). Regarding the Lambertston pics, they don’t seem exceptional, but it’s hard to tell for sure in that horrendous mess of a presentation.
No surprise here I’m sure, but I too found nothing special in Jukka’s essay. I’ll refrain from writing what I really think about all of it out of respect. I wrote my own version of captions over there for the sole purpose of putting into words precisely what we were looking at. The esoteric, poetic, flowery words various people wrote in praise of that work really had me shaking my head. It’s like we weren’t looking at the same thing. And I guess that’s just it… we weren’t.
I am so surprised, shocked, and now even confused that mr. Harvey didn’t like Andre Lambertson’s pictures on the linked mm… to me seemed Andre’s style was a bit similar to own David’s style – layers, color, slightly loose and close approach, yet decisive moments and timelessness… would be very interesting discussion at the coffee table… is it something wrong with my taste for good photography, or does this just belong to some tactical steps taken by the grand in this highly competitive industry… David isn’t ony a mentor for guys who want to become reall photographers, he is a working photographer himself…
DAH…
I feel like I walked into a minefield here…
From your responses it seems to me that you have issues with Andre’s work in general and/or himself…
First time I heard about Andre Lambertson was yesterday, so I have no clue who he is and what he has done in the past, but I did like some of the pictures in this mm piece and I did find the particular combination of pictures and poetry very interesting and that is why I posted the link…
Maybe I found it even more interesting—this exact moment in time—because it comes close to the idea I described to you about placing some short texts/poems in juxtaposition to the pictures in my book to come…
In any case…
Is it a *great* piece?
No… (in my opinion)
But I would definitely not give it a 2 out of 10… more like a 6… but then again, we do have different tastes…
I feel the very opposite mn. I love Jukka’s storytelling method – it reminds me of Panos. Anthony, I agree with you: David (DAH) is a master at framing/composition, Jukka has no skill in this area at all. He might be ‘living it’ but it is a world that we have already seen documented before. Reality is in the eye of the beholder and this is already passe now, imo.
I hope to God he can be encouraged to tranpose the method somewhere else…
It may be time for some here to go beyond the personal restrictions they place on what photography is……….. eg. for those that take up an understanding of the visual metaphor and its nuances within the photographic media a whole new world opens up. Photography has a wide and varied language that needs to be learnt and only when one takes up this mantle that the ability to transcend beyond the obvious comes into fruition.
others …… Sailors noticed the stillness of the rising (and not blowing) air near the equator and gave the region the depressing name “doldrums.”
Now, I’ve never heard of Andre before. Just checked his site. Nothing revolutionary or cutting edge, just good photography that is more about his subjects than about him.
“Andre Lamberson is a New York based PJ and filmaker who is comitted to documentary stories of hope, healing, and transformation.”
What a concept! There are photographs of smiling people who are actually trying to get their shit in a pile.
ATTENTION
ATTENTION
French Police Filmed Dragging African Immigrant Women & Taking Away Their Babies During A Protest!
“A video has emerged showing French police evicting African immigrants with babies and children during a housing protest in a Paris suburb. Police arrived in the north-east Parisian suburb of La Courneuve last Wednesday and asked a group of about 60 mostly women and children to move, said Michael Hajdenberg, a journalist with the French media organization Mediapart. The group had been living in the street since being evicted from their council homes on July 8 to make way for a new housing project, he said. When the group failed to respond to the request, Hajdenberg said police officers forcibly removed them. ” CNN
“Today flying biplane.Fun wind goggles”
Did you see Snoopy or the Red Baron?
(old news but important)
L.A. Times Photographer Fired Over Altered Image
http://www.poynter.org/content/content_view.asp?id=28082
Well, you have to distrust the judgment of anyone who thinks the LA Times is the greatest newspaper evah. If only these media institutions would apply those ethical standards to their editorial staffs who regularly cut and paste stuff from disparate sources to create dishonest stories.
prop 8 overturned in california…
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/04/prop-8-overturned-gay-mar_n_671018.html
In a major victory for gay rights activists, a federal judge ruled on Wednesday that a voter initiative banning same-sex marriage in California violated the Constitution’s equal protection and due process rights clauses….
major victory for gay rights today…Go Cali…tell’em how its done :)
Feast your eyes on this! The Oskar Barnack Award projection from Arles 2010. Some of the work on this video is mind-blowing! Just watched it once, now off to make cup of coffee before I settle in for a second viewing:
http://www
TEAM BURN +1 [gatecrasher]
http://www.flickr.com/photos/29165128@N03/sets/72157624532941677/show/
Panos: It’s amazing that California – a place I associate with freedom – is so far behind when it comes to gay rights. I just discovered a page on Wikipedia that has a list of countries around the world and how far they are with gay rights legislation. I thought the map on there showing the US split into states and how the laws vary from state to state was pretty interesting. I see there’s a long stripe from Canada to Mexico banning same-sex marriage – is that what you call ‘middle America’? Florida? What’s going on there?!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Status_of_same-sex_marriage
JohnG: Just LOVE that last one!
BURNIANS,
I love you…lost iPhone,lost stuff, no connection but I met so many people
And I have some new friends…we have new BURNIANS.
What can I say I love Love love France and I love French people…!!!
HERVE, AUDREY…and to all my French People…thank you for the hospitality…
Thank you for everything …VIVA FRANCE !!!
I am in NC…more friends, I believe in the humans…:)))
Californians…I am coming down…:)))
LOVE LOVE LOVE…keep shooting…I will be back…
Viva America…this iPad is funny:))))))))))))))))
I can’t download flash…oi…???
iPad …tech talk…
Ouououu….
Am I ready for JUKKa???!!!
Come on …wake up BURNIANS…life is here and we better dive in…
Or shall I say…
BURN IN…
What are you shooting??? As EMCD says…
P.S KATIE….back to your back…I am back…asking for your back…love
Love to all…grab your cameras and find your vision…you are photographers
After all………:)))))))))))))))))))))))
Regarding questions of propaganda and embedding, note that Michael Hastings, the Rolling Stone writer who reported honestly from Afghanistan, has had his embedding privileges revoked. Surprise surprise, the government will kick reporters out of bed if they fail to whisper those sweet nothings the government so want to hear.
ANTHONY RZ…THODORIS…GORDON….MICHAEL K
i think all this discussion is totally in the context of opinion, so i am assuming we can at least agree on the subjectivity of it all….there are no ANSWERS…
it is too bad that somehow we ended up comparing Andre and Jukka…actually almost by accident since Thodoris says that was not his intention at all when he popped in the Lamberston link…and comparisons rarely feel satisfactory simply because it is useless in general to compare one photographer with another unless they are shooting from the same school and perhaps the same subject matter….it is true that overall i see Andre as simply not so special a talent..not terrible, just not special…and when i think of the photography of Haiti from Webb, Kratochvil, Gilden, Steber, Nacthwey, etc etc then how in the world can i give high marks to Andre?? for me photography is always about referencing and historical context both for the subject and for the photographer who presents it…
i see where Andre is trying to go, but again he just does not hit the high water mark in the very area where he is working…Andre Lamberston personally is a very nice man…i really like him and he is really good at 8 ball pool …can run the table…….and as i said in a previous comment, i really thought from his earlier works that he was going to do something a little more than what he has done…so part of this is a longer term disappointment…..what Andre is lacking (and by the way, i could care less about “composition” per se) is emotional attachment and my forever drumbeat gotta have it authorship…..go review again please the work of the photographers i mentioned above …surely you can see the difference in terms of style , authorship etc…
Jukka is just raw….no “composition” , no awareness of “photography”….Jukka is not “trying” and Andre is “trying”…Jukka is loose, Andre is attempting to be deliberate….and of course if any of you are not aware of the Helsinki school for whatever reason , then that would make all the difference in how you view these two bodies of work…i have no idea what will happen to Jukka or whether or not he only has this one story to tell…that is all we have ever seen from him….it will be interesting to see where he goes from here..mostly i think we just hope that he indeed survives….
Imants is correct…if you are only going to appreciate work that is either similar to your own or comes up to some preconception of “standards”, then you are indeed in the “doldrums”….a fresh breeze is always welcomed imo…..
cheers, david
What not to love….
…Back to author-ship….
If you don’t own it…then you won’t support it….
Any boulangerie in America:)))
I was not, by any means, comparing Andre and Yukka… I didn’t like Yukka’s work at all… and I didn’t know about Andre Lambertson before, but when I looked at the linked Andre’s work I was enjoying it very much… I have to familiarize myself with Andre’s work a bit more though… By the way, I have never been a fan of Helsinki school of photography, just not my cup of tea I guess… Anyway, David I always appreciate your insight… Cheers
David
Thanks as always for your insight and for pushing our vision forward. While I am repelled by Jukka’s stuff, I recognise it’s power, and the aesthetic attatched to it. I just feel manipulated by it.
I am old school, and among those not aware of the Helsinki School. I just now ordered a copy of the first book from Amazon (available used). Maybe I’ll gain some insight, I’ll let you know.
I vote for giving Hipstamatics to serial killers! Love it!
DAH…
I didn’t post the mm piece as a concealed critic to Jukka’s work…
Not sure who was the first to compare Andre’s and Jukka’s work, but it definitely wasn’t me…
My intention was not to compare anyone to anyone else… and I definitely didn’t expect any fuss and muss about the link I posted… just a couple of people going “cool link… thanks…”
Cheers.
“…if you are only going to appreciate work that is either similar to your own or comes up to some preconception of “standards”, then you are indeed in the “doldrums”….a fresh breeze is always welcomed imo…..”
Please tell me you don’t think this about those of us you addressed in your comments. Very disappointing, if so. I was right with you in your comment up to that spot.
Is it possible to dislike Jukka’s essay and not be accused of being dull and unable to grasp something different from yourself? Of course it is.
I have tried to stay out of this and most discussions here these days, but I have to say that I agree with Michael here.
Yes I can appreciate something different that what I shoot. And I do. But I also reserve the right to say when something is not good technically or just overall crap. There is too much floating around on the internet that is being produced by people that obviously cannot operate a camera and try to pass it off as “art.” Just because everyone has a camera and a venue for publishing it (the internet) does not make them photographers.
THODORIS…MICHAEL K…..GORDON…ANTHONY RZ…
hey boys…you know damn well i love you guys…i would not take the time to write if i didn’t…this a photo discussion….of course it is possible to dislike Jukka and not be accused of being dull..i was writing specifically to you gentlemen just because you were posting, but i was making general comments and our overall tenor here on Burn is to always take a look at the other side…i think you know well i do not live a life as Jukka nor feel compelled to photograph like Jukka…i do however have an appreciation for anyone who is so willing to bare it all…so i like Jukka for that reason…i like other work and other photographers for other reasons…believe me i would be just as bored with too many needles as i would with too many sunsets if you know what i mean….and Thodoris i totally know how this discussion got set up…and not by you of course…
ok now, everybody relax…i have to leave now to go make some photographs….the odds of me moving photography forward this afternoon are slim….my only really positive feeling today comes from my GF1 having survived a full tequila splashing last night during my family reunion…knocked out for a few hours, but bounced back this morning…
cheers, david
DAH
you wrote
“Jukka is just raw….no “composition” , no awareness of “photography”….Jukka is not “trying” and Andre is “trying”…Jukka is loose, Andre is attempting to be deliberate”
It appears to me that no-one is trying harder, more aware of “photography” or being more deliberate than Jukka. These are not casual snapshots, although they are trying hard to appear as such. For example, there are thousands of un-sophisticated snaps of BJs on the web. Jukka’s is deliberately shot and manipulated to the point where I thought it was a photo of a rotting corpse at first. Did Jukka really just happen to find the snap with the dried blood amongst the garbage and discarded needles on the floor? As I said before, I feel manipulated by these photographs. I do not see bravery,or a soul bared, I see someone hiding behind a persona.
A more interesting comparison might be Larry Clark, or Danny Lyon.
Tulsa is a good work , but I prefer donovan wylie’s documentary piece on the new age travellers.
GORDON…
hmmm, well this is indeed interesting…i am wondering what gives you this feeling of being manipulated…i do not feel that way with this work, although perhaps you are right..do you know something i do not know or just a feeling you have?? i get the feeling Jukka is for real, but i am the type who tends to believe people…believe what they show me or tell me…Larry Clark was certainly a part of the scene in Tulsa and must have changed the sequence of events to some extent, so why do you give more cred to him? or to Danny? i am a fan of both, but certainly am aware of their manipulations but not offended by them….
Larry Clark, Tulsa.
Yeah.
Definitely heavy.
PETE…
i do not think anyone would disagree with what you say…but, do you think Jukka is passing this work off as art? hmmmm, looks like pretty hard core documentary to me…while it may be true that the net serves those who “cannot operate a camera” isn’t it also true that just because one CAN operate a camera does not necessarily make them a photographer either? the cameras do pretty well on their own these days…not much of a skill set required…. i mean who cares about tech prowess one way or the other anyway?? let’s face it…it is about as easy to be good technically as it is to be bad technically…yes i am exaggerating a bit, but i mean just so NOT an issue… a choice, but not an issue….the issue should be impact, emotion, something to say…whether the photos are in focus , out of focus, color or b&w or flash or no flash just does not make one iota of difference….all are an effect or at least can be…now mind you i do appreciate fine craft in all things and also remember i grew up with craft being very important and i embraced it….but at this point in our art/craft/ surely we cannot still be holding photographers hostage to a really old fashioned vision of craft above all….
hey dude, come down obx when you get a chance..we can finish this discussion off my front porch…
cheers, david
Jukka’s work shows weakness of web as a place for showing photography. I am sure his work looks great as a prints on a wall. as a close exhibition.
Looking at photography in the web we need something strong visually, and I have to say; something easy, catchy.
On a another note……..
The essays here have nothing to do with like and dislike it is about the appreciation of photography as a process of communication no matter what form it takes along with the photographers commitment to his/her work.
Maybe some of you need to send David an essay proposal that meets the high standards of burn . I am sure he would like nothing better.
Beats just yappin about what you propose to do…………..
i don’t know… i shot PURE Cirkus (People Undergoing Real Experiences, a piercing & suspension
subculture group here in Seattle) very closely for two years (6 yrs ago?) and thought i got some solid
work out of it. i was totally engrossed by my subjects, some are still friends today, and i even came
to see some beauty in it.
thing is, when it came time to gather it all up and think of what to do w it all, i asked myself,
“how could it possibly be of any benefit for anyone to see this stuff?”
and when i couldn’t think of a single positive point i just dropped the whole thing.
i put some of the photos up on photoshelter today so you can see what i’m talking about.
i’m not saying we all should be asking that question.
just, for me, i had to.
but damn, i still really love some of those shots!
i’m still conflicted about it.
http://iamkatia.photoshelter.com/gallery/Your-Dark-Euphoria/G0000Zz0wmaPAsxc/
jukka IS for real….and i want so much to jump in here, but as I’ve promised Jukka, i’ve said enough…..all i can suggest again, is that if folks don’t like the work, fine….but all the other speculation is profoundly depressing…i remember Michael called Jukka a dilettante under “kind of error” and i see the same tendency here by those who find the work either distasteful or amateurish or craftless, etc….
it sometimes seems as if viewers expect work at burn to look like NatGeo or to subscribe to the conventions of a given notion of what ‘craft’ means or what ‘photography’ should entail….the IRONY here is that if you, for a moment, extend the same argumentation that keeps cropping up here, you would eliminate the work of a huge swath of literature, music, fine art and most importantly: our perceptions…..
jukka has endured a life that many cannot here even imagine and i am NOT talking about a life that deals with drugs/alcohol and jukka has NEVER in public or in private, in an exhibition or a projection, ever wrote or spoke grandiosely about his work, but in fact, to the contrary has spoken of his work quite simply….to me any GOOD and REAL photographer must confront the question of both truth and ‘why’ if they’re taking pictures,….in a way, his entire body of work, including his magnifcent hand-made huge books (like kiefer sculpture) are his way of reconciling and carving out his life…..
i do want to write a long post as to the photographic merits (both technically and conceptually, existentially and truthfully), but i kind of want to step slightly to the side because i’ve known jukka for 4 years, have exhibited with him and smoke here in Canada and have had many chats…..
all i can say is that at this stage in photography, it seems profoundly depressing that a critique of another’s work entails the suggestion that they’re unable to make photographers or that they need to subscribe to a particular aesthetic/philosophy, or more upsetting, that they are criticized personally for who they are based SOLEY on a series of pictures…..that, in the end, is what is most disturbing about many comments…..
boring work: ok, no problem
‘tasteless’ (whatever that means): ok, no problem
don’t get it/don’t like it/don’t need it/waste of my web time: ok, no problem….
but i can tell you that authenticity in the photoworld seems an often difficult thing to find and i dont mean ‘authentic’ work…i mean a person who struggles with what it means to make pictures as a way of trying and failing to document his/her life and the world around….Jukka’s work is close to antoine’s (and yes, they know each other and yes antoine likes jukka’s work and as a person) in the sense that both men live photography as a part of their breath…not to make essays or have exhibitions or be known but because that IS the language through which they feel the most, for now, comfortable to speak, whether loud and harsh or mute or poetic or inarticulate…..
honestly, as a photographer, i dont give a damn about most of the shit that seems to stir folk about, all i care is that somehow, this miraculous language of pictures speaks to me on such a visceral and spiritual level that i cannot recognize my life without the camera….and the pics…and that sometimes hurts, to know that….and I would ask each of you to view this essay also in that vein: that is hurts to be a photographer because often it feels ridiculously narcissistic and empty and pointless and yet somehow someone else’s story got you out of a spot and you feel forever gifted by that….
even if i didnt know Jukka personally, i would like this work because, while the external appearances share little connection to mine, the current that underlies it does….and that is about wrestling with life….and with one’s life and with one’s self…..
as a photographer, it’s been my only mantra: to make stories in the way i thought i could do it best, not the best photography (what the fuck is that) but the only way i could….the only we each of us can….there is no other work like jukka’s because there is no other jukka….just as there is no other Soth or Marina Black or Imants or Harvey or whoever the hell one likes…..
that is the miracle of photography….
ironically, a former Road Trip photographer came to visit toronto and we had a great night together…never met him before…older than me, in the photo world for a long time…he said, ‘you dont look anything like your pics and you are much funnier and nicer” and i said “jeez, thanks….what should i look like”…”you know, a pretentious, art guy who talks in long pompous sentences”….i said, “god damn, i guess my pics and book really suck then” ;)))….
it’s nice to be called one of the ‘sensitive, overly nice ones” (i think by R.Z. again), but this aint about nice…
for me, i’m willing to give over to work that comes from a place that is not about proper this/that, but one born of what it means to be alive….and thats both: sunsets and howls….
from where have we come and to where we all go…
\
b
Bob, yes, thank you for that.
hi Jenny
I may be out of order here as I did not read the string of comments,
but your, ‘hipstamatics to serial killers!’, comment reminded me of this:
http://www.ocregister.com/news/alcala-238591-women-murphy.html
photos released last march from the serial killer (and photographer) Rodney Alcala–released in order to track down additional leads. released as evidence…(of obsessions?)
“I think the definition of an artist is not necessarily tied into excellence or talent; an artist is somebody who, if you took away their freedom to make art, would lose their mind.”
Love to all my photo philosophers and BURNING artists!!!
“jukka has endured a life that many cannot here even imagine”
Says who? How do you know? And what the fuck does that mean or even matter? Are we supposed to feel sorry for him now. Feel bad about not liking his essay? So what, Bob? So fucking what.
“it sometimes seems as if viewers expect work at burn to look like NatGeo or to subscribe to the conventions of a given notion of what ‘craft’ means or what ‘photography’ should entail”
Straw man. Not true.
“boring work: ok, no problem
‘tasteless’ (whatever that means): ok, no problem
don’t get it/don’t like it/don’t need it/waste of my web time: ok, no problem…”
Gee, thanks for your sanction.
Shaka: You are not out of order. And it raises some very important questions.
KATIA
I looked at your work on the piercing culture. OUCH. That hurts to look at. But I like it. It is a great portrait study of this culture. And the pictures are very well done. I can easily see this in a gallery.
BOB
Yawn
DAH
I told Michael that we were going to take a road trip down there, kick your butt and then all get drunk together on your porch and talk about it. Sound good? Jenny and I do plan on trying to get down there eventually, but it will not be for a while. Maybe we will drag Michael and his lovely wife down with us.
Now about the essay… Art? maybe not his intention. Hard Core documentary? Not so much. When looking at the photos, I see no thread tying it all together, it looks like a group of random snapshots. I know nothing about who these people are other than their addictions and fetishes. The nudes seem like they are
gratuitous and there to shock. There is no “environment” other than a bed and a urinal. I understand the sometimes photography needs words to help us understand what is going on, but I really have no time for photography that by itself really tells you nothing. There is a theorem among photographers I know that says that the greatness of a photo is in inverse proportion to the length of its caption.
And although this is not the case with this essay, I am so tired of all the fuzzy, out of focus, unwashed print, poorly exposed shit (yes shit) I see online. Old fashioned? Hardly. I know times change, but dammit some standards need to remain. And I do see a lot of crap that is obviously a result of not being in command of the instrument in your hands.
Now does this need to matter to the photographer? Maybe not. Is it enough for someone to shoot something to express themselves or their inner thoughts or feelings? Is it OK if it has no market value? If you are independently wealthy or have a real job then maybe not. What I am trying to say is that if you are not trying to make a living at photography then maybe it is OK if the work only means something to you. But if you are trying to make a living at it, it needs to mean something to someone else.
Or to put it one other way.. It’s like dry-humping…. it does not mean anything. At least not to me.
I have ranted enough. Work to do.
What do you mean by ‘losing one’s mind’? Do you mean becoming ‘insane’? And if you do, what does it mean? What precisely is sanity? And what is insanity? Where is the line that divides them? And who has the right to draw that line? Should there even be a line? “Those who could not hear the music thought the dancers were insane.” What is sane and real to one person can be insane and unreal to another, no? Isn’t life about an exploration… exploring limits, boundaries, being ‘in’ or ‘out’ of our minds???
What do Burnians think? I have an opinion but I’d like to hear others thoughts.
Pete..yes
I’m glad this essay meant Nothing to you and RZ but meant alot to Bruce Gilden and Alessandra..but who cares about Bruce Gilden..
He has no taste.. He prefers to cook and eat (shit), unlike you of course…:(
Thanks for the link Katia. Well done photos.
And Pete and all if u have issues with the EPF judges,
Then you obviously have issues with the choices of some of the Magnums best.. Just admit it and move on..
Your sense of negativity only exposes your shortsightedness..
( I can’t believe how easily u guys overlook who the judges were…)
I mean really your tremendous efforts to look cool and different only makes you….shhh I’m not gonna say it..
I’m sure having a constant cloud over your head it’s not fun..
A black cloud of negativity that u love to share once every six months… Sorry u feel so bad..we get it.. We get it
I mean trying to shoot Jukka down brings some sort of intense pleasure for some but remember who you actually dissing… And I can’t believe u can’t see that Jukka is not the one that actually is dissed here.. But those iconic photogs from magnum that actually approved him.. You still don’t get it?? Good! The opposite would totally surprise me..
PANOS
See… that is the wrong response. If you said it meant something to you, I would have to respect that. I truly don’t care if Gilden likes it. Don’t even care if Gilden shot it.
This is part of the problem, why is everyone running around kissing famous photographer ass? YOU either like it or you don’t. It either moves you or it doesn’t.
I am a huge fan of DAH. But no I am not fond of everything I have seen that he shot. And I certainly would never say I like something just because David said he did.
And just for the record…. “I am glad this essay meant nothing to you…” Why exactly should you give a shit one way or another?
anyway… hope you are well.
Pete, ok..
I think I already said it under Jukka’s essay..
I loved and love his work…
Hope all is well with u as well..
No sarcasm , no disrespect either..
Big hug:)
“Then you obviously have issues with the choices of some of the Magnums best.. Just admit it and move on..
Your sense of negativity only exposes your shortsightedness..
( I can’t believe how easily u guys overlook who the judges were…)”
Oh Brother. Hero worship? Shit.
I have a lot of respect for the photographer in Magnum. But seriously, an opinion from Magnum is not coming from the burning bush.
Marcin; “I am sure his work looks great as a prints on a wall. as a close exhibition”
Scarily good I think!
As for Jukka’s essay; it is a complete polar opposite to how I ever could shoot, but I do feel its honesty. But that is just one opinion.
I do think photographers do try to pigeonhole work too much compared to other arts. Take music for example. I often shoot heavy death and thrash metal gigs. The music doesn’t really do it for me, but as a rather lame guitar player myself I can see their obvious talent. Same as jazz; I’ve tried to get into it, but it leaves me cold. However I can watch those jazz guitarists play forever.
Regarding looseness etc. I always seem to strive to loosen up my work, yet a photographer who looked at some of my work told me she needed to loosen up her work like I have done! Yet I know I am no “loose” photographer!
“I know times change, but dammit some standards need to remain. And I do see a lot of crap that is obviously a result of not being in command of the instrument in your hands”
I just had a late 1970’s flashback! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svC2XlPFW1g
:-)
I think it’s important to consider who the judges/editors/commenters are, try to recognize their strengths, and consider the work in question accordingly. I’ve learned a lot by giving thought to work that I was inclined to dismiss out of hand just because David Harvey chose it. But as Pete says, there are no Gods here. I’m sure we all can learn a lot from Bruce Gilden and all the other famous (and not so famous) photographers, but if we don’t have something we can teach them as well, then we should probably be doing something else.
And I really don’t get why you all get so upset over criticism. Sure, I agree that personal attacks are out of order, but I rarely see them and when I do they’re more likely to be directed at those who offer negative criticism rather than at the photographers whose work is on display. Criticizing someone’s work is not a personal attack. Even if it’s a lame-ass criticism such as “I don’t like it” or “that essay sucks.” And why the need to ascribe nefarious motives to anyone who doesn’t like something you like? Is anyone really so upset they didn’t win the EPF that they lash out at the finalists? I doubt it. How would the unrelentingly positive people like it if they were accused of being suckups so they could win the EPF next year? I’ve been accused of both extremes and I can tell you it’s not particularly pleasant.
Personally, I can’t imagine why anyone would want to display their work and get nothing but accolades. I value the negative criticism much more than the pats on the back. Hopefully, I’ve thought of whatever the criticism is and am comfortable with my choices, but if someone manages to get through my defenses and demonstrate my work sucks, I consider that a good thing. I don’t want to be stroked. I want my work to be good.
But beyond the sucks/doesn’t suck dichotomy, I think it’s good to know what people’s perceptions are. Yes, “I like it” or “I don’t like it” are not helpful criticisms, but “I thought it was about this” or “it struck me as preachy” may provide interesting insights. And sure, Bruce Gilden or David Harvey’s criticisms legitimately carry more weight than Michael Webster’s, but even those guys have a lot still to learn and even us guys have a little bit we can teach them.
And since we’re on the subject of constructive, hopefully, criticism and how we respond to it, I do find it distressing that so often the answer to “so and so’s essay has this or that problem” is “I know so and so and he’s a really nice guy.” I don’t think that kind of defense is doing so and so any favors.
Geez, why all the anger? On this side of the screen it reads as real anger, with spittle and purple faces and shouting. Makes you look kind of silly guys, frustrated. Just sayin’. Such a strange web phenomenon.
PETE:
“BOB…Yawn”
i’ll remind you of that comment if we ever meet in DC/NC/NYC…..that it is easier for you to insult someone (now me) behind the anonymity of the computer with glib jibes………professional journalist?….
yawn indeed,
and i’m tired, so off to bed
b
Hero worship?
————–
chuckle…that was a good laugh..i needed that …
but thanks for your belittling comment…
(what would i expect from you anyways)
Michael W, im sure Bruce is learning from Jukka’s essay ..thats what makes Bruce big and Jukka bigger…
Im sure that Bruce didnt like Jukka because he reminded him of someone else, but because je is original..
and i guess i know why Pete and any Pete felt threatened…coz there was nothing to compare jukka with…
i know that feeling, the feeling of the unknown…
Thats what Antoine created too back in the day..he scared the shit out of the constipated old schoolers that if your photo does not look like Steve McCurrys then you are unclassified…
And that terrifies the unimaginative..ha ha, whats new?
history repeats itself
Panos, you make more and more sense everyday. THIS is what scares me a little. :))
Bob, Zen brother, Zen.
Tom..
Ha… Happy to “scare” you..
Big hug and thanks..
I just don’t see that Pete feels threatened. Perhaps, maybe even no doubt, there’s some psychological insecurity beneath all of our opinions, but who’s qualified to say and so what anyway? Better, imo, just to deal with the argument rather than speculate on the motive behind it. At least in public. But whatever… It’s probably just unresolved with my mother talking. Good night y’all.
David A
I don’t doubt that Jukka is for real. I do doubt that these photos represent Jukkas “core”.
Larry Clark and Danny Lyons photos are pretty straight up ordinary record shots. Their power does not rely on shock, or visual tricks. I view them as pretty honest documents.
In contrast, Jukkas photos are beating me over the head, in my face, and trying way too hard to scream their message at me. As I’ve written before, I’m sick to death of fuzzy, over-exposed, under-exposed mashed, tromped on, bled on etc etc images and the implication that they are somehow more real or raw or artistic.
The brutal technique used in many of these photos is trying to manipulate me into thinking they are something they are not. You have to try very hard to make photographs look this ugly. I’m being told how to think and react.
You want to show me your crazy life?, fine, get a ninety-nine dollar digi point and shoot put it on auto and just press the button. Any 3 year old can produce sharp well exposed pictures.
. Any 3 year old can produce sharp well exposed pictures……..can you Gordon seeing that you are probably not a 3 year old?
Gordon is playing the old cliché game of the chimp and the paintbrush…….. that’s progress for you
…probably wrote his comment with the wine on the table cliché
…………now all we need is the famous Ken Burns to glide and pan into the mix
Ok that’s it for me now back to the “doldrum gang”
I had a speech popping off my keyboard about how humanity cannot even get along on a blog and then I said what is the point.
happy to blogger http://www.etrouko.com.au/iman.htm
“In contrast, Jukkas photos are beating me over the head, in my face, and trying way too hard to scream their message at me. As I’ve written before, I’m sick to death of fuzzy, over-exposed, under-exposed mashed, tromped on, bled on etc etc images and the implication that they are somehow more real or raw or artistic.”
Thanks Gordon…I’ve been trying to find the words but you found them for me.
The world is ugly enough without wanting to see more…where has all the uplifting work gone ? Why do the hard core of folks on here get pissed off when there is a comment contrary to their own thoughts ?
Imants…self promoting again …..tut tut.
REAL. It IS ‘real’. About as ‘real’ as anything I have seen lately, David says. I totally agree. And because I have been through, and, seen through ‘real’, real looks both ‘unseeing’ and an immature way to ‘see’. Real is superficial to me. ‘Reality’, to my way of seeing and thinking, lies beyond ‘the real’. I think ‘surreal’. I hope someone out there understands me…
no Pete ……… amazed at you not recognising your window shopping reflection…..toot toot
to panos skoulidas and all my friends, and interesting people on this wonderful forum,
first of all, when the submited work for Burn EPF is being judged, there are so many variables involved… the limited choice of decent work, the context in general, many subjective human factors and… great photographers aren’t always the best and objective judges and people who understands photography the best, and did I mention subjectivity, yes they are too subjective and even insecure, yes still insecure, because they are still working photographers and have their reasons for that, will always be… For example, if one has developed his own unique style and has a talent to take impressive environmental portraits of walking unaware people in a big city by using a wide angle lens it doesn’t automatically make him the best and objective judge in such a wide context… And even people who have and make the most money in the world aren’t those who understand about finances the best, most often, people who really understands finances are those experts who just work for normal wages… Photographer is “just” a photographer, a great photographer is “just” a great photographer – that is already too much and unachievable for most… their opinion is always interesting and to you matters much more than mine, but judging such a huge and diverse amount of work takes more than being a great photographer… some can do it better than the others… some, especially in particular genre of photography, could be really good judges… Don’t always take it for granted though… Cheers
Anthony: I see what you are saying and agree, up to a point. I think it must be difficult not to evaluate photographs on the basis of what you have already seen – just as it is not to CREATE photographs on the basis of what you have already seen. So how to do the mental acrobatics required to clear your eyes/mind? It is the same as required for ‘shooting loose’ and ‘letting go’ isn’t it? By the way, imagine having to look through 5,000 essays or however many it was, really visualise it, thousands of essays… you can bet that Jukka’s stood out from the crowd. It screams out for attention – and maybe help.
By the way, this whole discussion arose from a request for a discussion on ‘authorship’ which DavidB put forward and Patricia and myself and others thought would be an interesting topic. Is this what we are now talking about?
hi Shaka! : )
GORDON:
“In contrast, Jukkas photos are beating me over the head, in my face, and trying way too hard to scream their message at me. As I’ve written before, I’m sick to death of fuzzy, over-exposed, under-exposed mashed, tromped on, bled on etc etc images and the implication that they are somehow more real or raw or artistic.”
Well put.
BOB:
I respect the fact that you are well-read, intelligent, and an artist. Many times I enjoy your comments. Many times it just comes across as a long sermon. I have a feeling that in person, I would have a different opinion. So often things do not translate well online. I am sure that discussions with you over a few beers would be engaging and enlightening. It was not meant as a personal insult no more than my saying I don’t like a particular photo or essay.
And with all due respect to DAH. I think “looseness” is nothing more than an excuse for justifying undisciplined, technically inferior images that display a lack of intent.
Truthfully what it all comes down to though is my wife likes sweet potatoes and I can’t stand them. It is all about personal taste. Everything is not going to speak to everyone in the same way. Some things don’t speak to some people at all. I think it is great to discuss why you may like something and why you don’t. Arguing about who is right or wrong is just a huge waste of energy.
OK Bob, now my “sermon” is over. :)
‘Your credit limit has been reduced to xxxx and you’ll no longer be able to take cash out with your card. Part of our ongoing service to customers is helping you manage your account.’ Helping? Is that what you call help? That is a strange definition of help.
“This communication is also available in large print, braille or audio format” Braille! What about other languages? I want it in audio format in Russian! OMG! It’s hysterical!
ANTHONY
I see what you are saying and agree, up to a point. I think it must be difficult not to evaluate photographs on the basis of what you have already seen – just as it is not to CREATE photographs on the basis of what you have already seen. So how to do the mental acrobatics required to clear your eyes/mind? It is the same as required for ’shooting loose’ and ‘letting go’ isn’t it? By the way, imagine having to look through 5,000 essays or however many it was, really visualise it, thousands of essays… you can bet that Jukka’s stood out from the crowd. It screams out for attention – and maybe help.
ONWARD AND UPWARD!
By the way, this whole discussion arose from a request for a discussion on ‘authorship’ which DavidB put forward and Patricia and myself and others thought would be an interesting topic. Is this what we are now talking about?
jenny lynn walker,
Photography should be about good photography, and about the subject you photograph, not about the authorship myth… If you find a proper and relevant story, then have the ability to continiously and coherently take speaking shots of it, have some PR skills or have some people who can do it for you, the authorship will come to you by itself, and soon you will be signing an autograph on your book… it will never work if you start from another end of the sequence…
Truthfully what it all comes down to though is my wife likes sweet potatoes and I can’t stand them. It is all about personal taste.
Nah, it’s all about personal growth. Both for the critic and the artist offering his or her work. Should be anyway.
And try the sweet potatoes. Still don’t like them? Study them. Try to figure out why others might like them. Still don’t like them? Understand that the problem is you, not the sweet potatoes and next time someone offers you some, consider politely saying no thanks if you can’t come up with any rational reason for not liking them, something that might help the chef make better sweet potatoes next time, or just passing on them without saying anything at all.
Anthony R.Z.
“Photography should be about good photography, and about the subject you photograph, not about the authorship myth… If you find a proper and relevant story, then have the ability to continiously and coherently take speaking shots of it, have some PR skills or have some people who can do it for you, the authorship will come to you by itself, and soon you will be signing an autograph on your book… it will never work if you start from another end of the sequence…”
Well said. Too many times the work becomes more about the photographer than the subject or the story. To quote a very talented and well known photographer at the second LOOK3 festival after a showing of work at the old warehouse…. “I am so tired of all these photographers that create work thats only purpose seems to be ‘look at me, look at me…’ “
MW
That is crap. I know why I don’t like them. I think they taste like shit. It is simple. There is no deep hidden meaning. Nothing to study. Why should I care why others like sweet potatoes if they make me want to upchuck. I don’t disparage others for liking them. Actually it would make more sense to be upset with people who do like things that I do, like shrimp (since we are on food). Demand goes up and so does price. Now that affects me. (Grin)
If I wasted my time trying to dissect why I don’t care for things I don’t care for, I would not have time to enjoy all the things that I do love or time to try things I have not experienced yet. Life is too short to dwell. Move on. If you think a photo is shit, then so be it. seek out others to look at.
JENNY…
every discussion on Burn and every story published is about authorship…you might enjoy going back through the archives and digging up some good discussion…this does come back around all the time as a discussion…the single most important thing for any creative person to be thinking about imo…pretty obvious really, but like all truly great discoveries , it is always just in front of your nose…
PETE…
with all respect to you amigo, i think you are living in the old old American print newspaper photographer tradition in terms of your tastes..which are probably not even your real tastes but tastes which were bored into you by the newspaper….a prisoner of the small town audience and mostly the advertising created for this audience…
all i have ever wanted to see in your work is the real Pete Marovich..i do not care if Pete is shooting with a Holga or an 8×10…..i have never said that “loose” in and of itself was the mark of great photography…any more than i would say that “deliberate” was somehow an indicator of poor photography…i like d”Agata, i like Soth…i am simply trying to keep the door open….period…for you by the way, for you
now i cannot imagine how you have spent so much time either being with me in person or reading Burn for two years and not know what i believe and stand for in terms both of subjective tastes and authorship…most editors have a lock on their philosophy…a creative cage..only certain things can be published…so, i open the door and give you and everyone freedom to be what you want to be and all i ask for is authenticity….authentic authorship…which can start at the beginning, at the end, or in the middle of your current life experiences…
by the way, i never developed a penchant for sweet potatoes either…but i do think your wife Jenny has good taste…
cheers, david
KATIA,
PURE#03 is an outstanding shot!
Pete, really? You’ve never changed your opinion about anything, learned to like something you once disliked? You’ve never been taught?
When I first started reading you in this thread, I thought you were arguing, more or less, for objective standards — for the idea that there is such a thing as quality. You ticked off a few reasons why you felt Jukka’s essay didn’t meet those standards. Now lower in the thread you seem to be arguing that’s not the case — that it’s all a matter of taste. Now you seem to be advancing the tautology that Jukka’s work sucks because it sucks because you say so. Which is it? Standards or taste?
Obligatory disclaimers: nothing personal, I like your comments, just trying to clarify; you, or anyone else are free to like or dislike Jukka’s or anyone else’s work and comment as you see fit; my comments are in no way meant to further my chances or winning any prize, or as sour grapes for failure to have won any prize in the past; I hated sweet potatoes for most of my life — I did not like them in a box, I would not eat them with a fox — but have recently learned to like them, though I’m not saying that would happen to you; past performance is no guarantee of future performance; pay no attention to that man behind the curtain; we’re still in Kansas, always have been, always will; side effects may include nausea, vomiting, failure to yield, etc…
SHAKA
How incredible that I had not heard of the serial killer/freelance photographer Rodney Alcala before you mentioned this. The idea of giving Hipstamatics to serial killers came from thinking about how to get real, violent, edgy photographs with no consideration for the subject. They say Alcala was a genius.
Rodney Alcala – The Dating Game Killer
August 23, 1943 (age 66)
San Antonio, Texas
Conviction: Battery, kidnapping, murder, probation violation, providing Cannabis to a minor, rape
Sentence: Death
Killings – number of victims: 7 – 100
Span of killings: 1968–1979
Country: United States
Rodney James Alcala (born August 23, 1943) is a convicted rapist and serial killer and free-lance photographer who was sentenced to death in California in 2010 for five brutal murders committed between 1977 and 1979. He is sometimes labeled the “Dating Game Killer” due to his 1978 appearance on the American television show The Dating Game in the very midst of his murder spree. Investigators have found a collection of hundreds of photos of women and teenaged boys photographed by Alcala, and speculate that he could be responsible for many more murders in California and fear that as evidence mounts, he may prove to be one of the most prolific serial killers in American history. Alcala is also notable for exceptional demonstrations of cruelty. Prosecutors say he “toyed” with his victims, strangling them until they lost consciousness, then waiting until they revived, sometimes repeating this process several times before finally killing them.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/03/12/rodney-alcala-photos-migh_n_496911.html
Nice…
DAVID ALAN HARVEY
You think I don’t know authorship is???? Ha!
I have never sworn at a Magnum photographer before… should I restrain myself or would you like something REAL???!
MW
“Pete, really? You’ve never changed your opinion about anything, learned to like something you once disliked? You’ve never been taught?”
Yes I have changed my mind about many things. LEARNED to like something? probably not. Acquired a taste for something, sure. I will taste things I don’t like once in a while, but usually the result is the same. And also for the record, there are times when a motion blurred photo or a technique that I would not necessarily use in my shooting does work. And I will say so.
NOW DAH
Are we going to have to rumble? (GRIN)
I do have an appreciation for a lot of photography that would not fit into “my authorship.” There are many photographers whose styles engage and excite me, but that I would never try to emulate. Why? Because it is not me. Which brings me to your comment: “all i have ever wanted to see in your work is the real Pete Marovich”
What makes you think that you are not?
Now granted, most of what I shoot, because it is for news, has to fall into a certain look in order to make the editors happy and give them something to illustrate the story. Most of that fits the “newspaper tradition.” But I always try to get something different. Sometimes that “different” shot actually runs. Usually they do not because the publication is the one that is locked into the “newspaper tradition.”
You have seen my Mennonite essay, the inauguration images and I think some other personal work I have shot. This is the real Pete Marovich. Now, I am sure there are people who are not impressed or don’t even like it. That is cool. I have never claimed to know what is right, wrong, good, or bad. I just tell how I feel about it.
I sent you an email with a link to some images that I consider my style of shooting. I tend to think of it as quiet, straightforward, documentary. Which maybe where I come from, but isn’t where we come from usually an indication of who we are? Nick Nichols once explained that he is a child of the 60’s so he sees things with a little blur some flash and lots of color. That comes through in his images. Sometimes I get the impression that you have a some contempt for the “old old American print newspaper photographer tradition.”
I don’t think that is the case, but sometimes it comes across that way.
I would love to hear your opinion of the images at the link I just sent you.
Damn, we do need to discuss this over beers on your porch!
OH DAH
That email was sent to your davidalanharvey.com address
JENNY…
did i say i thought you did not know what authorship is?? i only said the discussion here is always about it and that you might be interested in some previous discussions……why the anger?? weird.. hmmmmmm
PETE…
no rumble…it is a life luxury to be able to discuss aesthetics…i plan to publish your Mennonite work here as you know…i do know that is the real you in terms of shooting style and i do know that you do try to get “something different” for your editors…but i will bet my britches there is still more to Pete than getting good angles and coverage on Mennonites and getting a new twist for your editors…again, i do not take anything away from your newspaper background which does have some value of course……i know it well myself…i am simply trying get you to add…not subtract…just add….how about portraits of Jenny for example?? or your neighbors??
cheers, david
DAVID (Alan Harvey)
I am reposting this message. I feel the necessity to forward it as it was posted twice. DavidB felt he could not be heard at a time when I was posting quite a lot and as I like ALL people to be heard (not only those who know how to communicate well, speak loudly or deliver sermons) I feel it is considerate to re-post it. Whether you discuss authorship directly or respond to this question is not of great interest to me personally, but now that I have brought this to your attention, I feel that I have done what is right. I am by nature, considerate MOST ESPECIALLY of the subject, which does not always appear to be the case among photographers. This is party why I brought up the matter of giving Hipstamatics to serial killers.
david_bacher
August 1, 2010 at 3:27 am
I’m re-posting this as is seemed to have become buried under Jenny’s plethora of remarks…:-)
Hi DAH,
You made this comment under MCB’s essay on China. Perhaps you could elaborate… I think myself and others would be interested in hearing about what this “big step” could be. I don’t know about others here on Burn, but I feel that Michael’s work can definitely stand with some of the best color photographers in Magnum. Is it this idea of becoming an “author”? Again, sometimes this term really confuses me because it seems that so often it is used regarding certain photographers whose work that is already clearly heavily influenced by others, even members of Magnum who are all supposedly distinctly different and unique “authors”. Perhaps this is a point of discussion and would love to hear what others on Burn think as well…..
“he knows what he wants and who he thinks he should be, but he also knows that he has a step to go..a big step….this should be interesting for all of you…to see where Mike goes from here….i have watched Mike since college days…always thought he just might make it…Mike is at the swing point….let’s hope he knocks the ball out of the park…”
————
Big sigh.
JENNY…DAVID BACHER
i did not see this comment from David Bacher…when you said David B i assumed you meant David Bowen who i could not imagine not understanding my authorship mantra……however, this is a good question about Michael Brown and deserves an answer….just so you know , i have been in discussions with David Bacher about authorship and style for a couple of years…he has a really hard time getting a handle on it…as do many…it is just not an easy thing for some to grasp and i am not sure why…one mistake photographers often make, as has David Bacher in his comment here, is in seeing work that matches what they see in either agencies, books, or exhibitions and then wondering why that person does not have that elevation…obviously a “match” is not good enough…a “match” means the “same thing” or a “clone” …..we are looking for true individuality, not a match….this does not go with what most people see in other aspects of life in business or in anything, so it throws many off…
the answer for Mike Brown’s “next step” will take some time…i have my whole family on my front porch right now , so i will make the obvious decision …but if you remind me please, i will fill in the blanks early next week…
“big sigh”…huh?? why do you show so much frustration here?? i just do not get it…
cheers, david
David,
No more single pictures on Burn?
Pete/Gordon/Abele
thanks for having a look and for your encouraging words.
i went back to an old DA account i had, an online gallery in which i used to post my photos on,
and found an interesting description i made 5 years ago to accompany one of the PURE shots and
found some of the comments intriguing as well.
here it is, if you’re interested:
http://iamkatia.deviantart.com/gallery/#/ddsonc
perhaps i will reconsider my position to shelve the work.
thanks again!
DAVID
Why the anger? I don’t suffer fools gladly and get wound up by some of the commentators on here. My memory is probably worse than yours, so no promises on reminding you about Mike Brown but, I will try. Enjoy the day with your family.
DAH
Of course you know I was teasing about the rumble. It is not that I am complacent in shooting what I have been. I am always looking for new stories to get my juices going. I am about to start on something now that we have a break in the congressional calendar that I will share with you in the coming weeks.
But I have to say that this “authorship” thing that has so many here in a bit of confusion is really not much more than never settling on where you are. You have said yourself that you are still “emerging” or evolving. I think everyone does. Yes everyone needs to find a voice, but just like a boys voice changes as he gets older, so does the creative voice. I have evolved quite a lot in the last 20 years both technically and stylistically, but also in “voice”.
I may be wrong, but I think a large part of what DAH is doing with the “authorship” thing is to keep pushing everyone forward. Which to be fair, I would think that if you did not do that, you would get bored.
I think MCB’s China essay is very good. Do I love every photo in it? No. I think it needs an edit, and I think he needs to keep shooting. He needs to keep moving forward.
Actually now that I think about it, learning how to EDIT your work may actually be the most important part of “authorship.” Everyone takes crappy photos. Even DAH and the members of Magnum. You just don’t see them. If anyone had the chance to see the Frank exhibit when it was touring you would get an idea of what I mean. Frank’s contact sheets where on display and yes among the thousands of images there was crap. But it was very well edited to produce the final product.
I firmly believe that editing your own work is harder than shooting. I think examples of how DAH or any other photographer whose work you admire were to show examples of a whole shoot and explain how the final edit came into being would be a most valuable lesson.
DAH, remember at LOOK3 when you showed the contacts of the nightclub shoot for your Living Proof book? That was enlightening.
OK. Now I have to work.
MARCIN…
nice to hear from you…sure, we will publish some singles soon…i think i mentioned i would do this right after we finished with the EPF finalists…it is true we have very few singles , but the ones we do have will show up soonest…one of the reasons is that sometimes we see a good single, then go to the photographer website and realize that their single is part of a whole body of work…for example the guy who shot the Olympic swimmers (name escaping me for the moment) submitted only a single which we were going to run until i looked at the whole body of work and suggested we go with the essay…most really fine singles are in fact part of someone’s overall body of work…it may not be part of a picture story, but it might be part of an essay…if you have some good singles , let us have a look….i like singles…
cheers, david
JENNY…
imo , you get “wound up” often and for little reason that i can see…perhaps another website would suit you better???
PETE….
Magnum is soon coming with a book of our respective contact sheets…i think out this fall….always enlightening…it is always so refreshing to see the “build up” towards an iconic photograph and all the mediocrity that goes with it……sure we all shoot terrible pictures…some of the terrible ones become somehow great later on…in any case, i am always very pleased to show students and anyone interested my mistakes….or attempts….the only difference between the great and not so great is just a microsecond or microtwist….
cheers, david
DAVID
With all due respect, I feel that is in your imagination. You have only to read the venemous attacks over the past 24 hours between photographers on here to see it is not me that is hurling the abuse. Nor, did I start it or contribute to it. But it is interesting that you should say that. Why could that be I wonder?
Julian Assange has authorship :-)
http://www.metafilter.com/94273/The-plot-thickens
KATIA…
“shelving” is always interesting…just shelve , but do not throw away, which is always a temptation..sometimes something which has been shelved for years, will come back to either haunt you OR become something very special….i missed your original link…if you can re-post , i would be most appreciative…
cheers, david
David,
I would love to see a post here with a scanned contact sheet containing one of your iconic shots…possible?
SIMON…
how did you get the big type?? smiling…well, yes i will do this if i can figure out how to do it…let me check with Mike Courvoisier and i will post the contact sheet referred to by Pete….just a three hour shoot during my time in the hood for Living Proof..most viewers tell me they learn more from this than from anything else i say or do….
cheers, david
JENNY…
again, a big “huh”??? i just do not know of what you speak…not blaming you for anything…just truly curious about your mind set…..anyway, no big deal….as i say to all..think and do as you please…
DAH–
here it is:
http://iamkatia.photoshelter.com/gallery/Your-Dark-Euphoria/G0000Zz0wmaPAsxc/
DAVID
You said I get wound up often on here but I do not feel that is the case. And I get wound up FAR LESS often than most of the male contributors on here. That is interesting now I’m thinking about it. I have not seen Patricia loose it, or Lee, or Vicky, or Eva, or any of the women on here, not in the time I have been contributing, but the men seem to hurl abuse at each other, and at the women, all the time! It is okay, just saying… if I find it too much, i will move on. Thank you for suggesting it as an option. If at any time you would feel more comfortable yourself if I were not contributing on here, please also let me know. Have a good day.
Katia,
I like your series a lot.
David,
I take portraits of my family and friends so nothing interesting for outsiders. But I will wait for singles photos. It is important part of Burn for me.
marcin–
yea? cool. :)
i’m actually feeling like i’m getting sucked back into it.
if i wanted to revive it, i’d have thousands of photos to sift through.
daunting..
but
i need to leave my street youth work alone for now and just let that all gestate.
and, since it’s been a few years away from the PURE work, i can see it now with much fresher eyes.
and maybe it could do a teensy bit of good, expanding peoples’ horizons and making them question
their concept of beauty.
thanks.
RE Authorship:
So I’ve been teaching highschool students photography for a couple of weeks now. The single biggest struggle is to get them to recognize their strength. Almost to a student they don’t know how to pick out their best work. Often it’s because they think they are supposed to be taking/presenting a certain kind of photo, even though their “eye” is best at taking another. I’ve also seen this in my peers, and was a struggle for myself for a long time (and sometimes still, esp when it comes to editing for portfolio, website, etc). Since this is a summer camp, and not graded, or a DAH workshop, I do need to be gentle and have fun and encourage them no matter what. But it can be frustrating. I’m also trying to encourage intimacy, no matter the subject. A sense of intimacy is what truly makes for the best work.
Anyway, one learns a lot about themselves teaching others, esp those who struggle but “get it” if prodded in the right direction. Wondering DAH if that’s the case for you?
Imants… Daahling.
Last week you called me a prick and a weed of person (or some such silliness.) because I made a little less then polite comment to you. I just want to say sorry… and also thank you! Thanks you for showing me, with the comments below, just how a non-prick communicates! Well done. *clap-clap-clap-clap*
“Any 3 year old can produce sharp well exposed pictures……..can you Gordon seeing that you are probably not a 3 year old?”
“Gordon is playing the old cliché game of the chimp and the paintbrush…….. that’s progress for you”
“…probably wrote his comment with the wine on the table cliché”
Ok that’s it for me now back to the “doldrum gang””
And as our friend Panos might say, Nothing personal… Big hugs! ;^}
Cheers.
Charles, I taught two classes at a private school last year and found the same to be true. However, what came out at the end of those six week classes was amazing. One was just too young and really should not have been in the class. However, another young woman has gone on to do really fine work; I ran into her the other day at the store. A man I know served on the board of the private high school she was applying to get into and he asked her who her favorite teacher was at the one she was graduating from. She said Ms. Guthrie.
Another student was going through the trauma of her parents extremely ugly divorce and she took photos of flowers that looked like Tropical Candy (name of her piece) that really moved her parents. She really wanted that beauty and peace back into her life.
Another girl whose mother was “competing” for who was the youngest and prettiest in the family completed an essay that showed such amazing relationship between spaces and people. I doubt she understood what she was portraying but later she will take those out and see her message.
Intimacy is a hard concept to explain in words, especially to high school students. IMO
Working with kids is the best. They have fewer preconceived ideas of what is a good photo and what isn’t. Gentle is good; but don’t be too gentle. Show them work that tells a story and ask them what is going on in their lives. It is amazing how fast they get it. Too bad as adults we tend to lose that ability and have to re-learn it all over again and again and again.
And above all Charles, HAVE FUN WITH THEM!
ALL….
LISTEN UP!
IT HAS ARRIVED….. LOOKEY HERE……
(sorry about the bad skype connection)
Great Guy Diego holding THE VERY FIRST COPY OF BURN 01… printed in Italy… right off the press….. His pro eagle eyes made sure the quality was top notch during printing… and boy has he delivered. it looks good. very good. VERY VERY good.
…oh yeah…
we’ll be setting up all the necessary stuff to make it available to all of you very very soon… GET READY!
this is a milestone for all of us… as simple as that…
hugs to all…
anton
YEA! Thanks Anton! I was just wondering when the announcement would come through. I feel like Burn has given birth!
Very nice. Congrats David and Anton… and everyone!
DAVID/ANTON! :))))
this will be very short as my brother is again in the hospital (same one from last year)…so, just a quick note:
BIG BIG BIG JOY ON BURN01! :)))))))))))…god damn…how much beautiful, mad, crazy fucking water has everyone crossed in the last 4 years….to think how beautifully far all this has come since the first RoadTrip/Ringu assignment at Road Trips….am mighty happy to have been a part of this mad ride for the last 4 years…some more tumultuous than others….and even if Pete think’s it’s a yawn0-bore, i’ll simply iterate: that is the magic of photography and community AND belief…..so proud of everyone…and especially those who worked particularly hard on Burn01, David, Anton, annamaria, maria, diego, lassal, computer dude extraordinarie in K…everyone…so0 proud of you…cant wait to get my hands on you….
and by the way, i sent ya’ll a Single gift a couple of weeks ago…to celebrate y’all….take a look..
back to family
hugs for y’all…for all of us…
running
b
p.s. Katia: LOVE that dark euphoria!…got a documentary for you too….have a look..amazing film on bob flanagan…please watch it:
SICK: The life and death of Bob Flanagan
very important documentary on an extraordinary human being and artist…
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Sick%3A%20The%20Life%20and%20Death%20of%20Bob%20Flanagan&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbo=u&tbs=vid:1&source=og&sa=N&tab=wv
4.hugs
bob
Just saw this: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100802/ap_on_en_ot/us_kodachrome_s_last_roll
…That’s the great thing about film. It’s a self-contained object. You hold the picture up to the light and there it is.” –/steve mccurry
Burn 01……can’t wait. congratulations all.
BOBB–
Thank you for the link and words of encouragement! :)
DAH/ANTON/ALL–
CONGRATULATIONS!! And yes, it is a magnificent birthing.
I am as poor as a pauper but you bet your life I will scrape enough $ together to get Burn01.
Can’t wait to see it!
Congratulations for Burn 01! Yay … can’t wait to get it .. :)))))
Congrats David, Anton, everyone – hooray for BURN 01!!!
PS: it feels good after all the recent anger and hot air on this thread to see, that the birth of BURN 01 unites most of us somehow! I just wish that some people would re-read their comments with a little time gone by.
And now back to excitement!!!
To boldly go where no web mag has gone before…
Big bravo…
CONGRATULATIONS
There are fireworks going off in my town right now, people shrieking as they fill up the sky with showers of colour. And I’m thinking of you guys and girls at Burn because in my mind they’re ALL yours. I can’t imagine how hard you have been working to get Burn 01 out and keeping everything rolling at the same time. What an accomplishment! I have an inkling of the excitement and joy you are feeling now. You are amazing and very special people David, Anton, and all!
———————————————————————————————————–
Sometimes the words I say, on occasion, do not reflect at all the way that I feel. Sometimes my feeling are as much a mystery to me as how I see this world. Have a great evening and love to you all. x
Nice pic; love the fish
To boldly go where no web mag has gone before…
Big bravo…
————————————————
yes, totally, BURN CONGRATULATIONS….
tell it like it is, show’em how is done…:)
Congratulations David and Anton on the mag. I know you’ve been working your arses off to get it done! :-)
and i agree with pete: kissing ass of the constipated old school newspaper dinosaurs for a job, aint worth it..
Kissing arse? Not a view i want to think of on a Saturday morning Panos… :-)
David,
The size of the type surprised me too… It is the blockquote html tag styling of the site…maybe Anton can tone it down? You do it like this (not sure if this code will appear properly):
<blockquote>your text here</blockquote>
Happy to see Burn in print, and also looking forward to the contact sheet post, and the new ipad-friendly Burn design!!
Cheers!
hi jenny :)
thanks for the hello…
(a side note: for the record I wasn’t using the phrase ‘of obsessions’ to talk about the work Jukka presented in a negative way, nor was I implying that he is a dangerous person similar to a serial killer.
in fact I am more inclined to think that if someone presents work which is dark in nature they are processing this darkness which is a way to release it and keep it from eating away at their insides…a healthy behavior which may at times deal with less than healthy life experiences.
the serial killer/photographer had an obsession which was realized in the ‘art’ only after the obsession with heinous acts was revealed through multiple murders. my mind was playing around with the various ideas regarding obsessions and obsessive behavior and contemplating what could have been different if the serial killer/photographer had expressed his ‘darkness’ more in art and less in/on the victims which he photographed in such a warm light.
(certainly art cannot ‘save’ a ‘madman’, but then again….?)
I think all photographers can fit under the ‘of obsessions’ (certainly it would be a good title for many of my bodies of work) and to many non-photographers collecting hundreds of thousands (millions?) of images of people we may or may not know is a bit odd, some might even find it crazy!
////////////////////
once again I am jumping in without following all the banter — but my interest was sparked by your comment:
“…how to get real, violent, edgy photographs with no consideration for the subject”
perhaps we can see real, violent, edgy photographs,
but how can we know what the consideration for the subject is?
the photos from the serial killer standing alone, without the knowledge that this photographer may or may not have killed the subjects, look quite gentle and show the subjects in a ‘good’ light. In fact this is what makes them so creepy as my imagination can see bloody mangled corpses while my eyes ingest soft light warm faces. the juxtaposition of the two is where the disturbance comes. the knowledge of the crimes (from the textual information, not visual) is where the questioning of ‘lack of consideration’ arises.
On the contrary, though a photograph may ‘look’ inconsiderate to the subject in the way it reveals something we feel should not (or we wouldn’t want) depicted, or that we feel uncomfortable with, how can we know what consideration was, or was not, given to the subject, or how the subject feels about the images? (and how much consideration to the subject’s opinion do we take into consideration) I become deeply invested in most of the people I photograph and have found each individual has a different take on what is exploitative-usually it revolves around something that reveals an insecurity or something they feel is slanderous to their image. however, in part, these parameters shift with each new frame and subject being framed.
As an audience to other people’s images we react, we judge, we are inspired, and hopefully learn more about our own values in the process. but we can never really know what was happening between subject and photographer, before during and after the release of the shutter, just by looking at a picture.
and does it matter? (I’m still exploring)
///
///
though I often speak in definitives I am an ever learning ever changing being and am really asking questions (to you specific, YOU in general and me) even if the sentences end with a period.
///
///
and then, your other comment:
“‘Reality’, to my way of seeing and thinking, lies beyond ‘the real’. I think ’surreal’. I hope someone out there understands me…”
I, for one, understand…and am always looking for new ways to break through the ‘reality’ glass!
—-
Pomara
“…That’s the great thing about film. It’s a self-contained object. You hold the picture up to the light and there it is.” –/steve mccurry”
this is why I haven’t been able to switch to digital. being a little too aware of death, after caring for a dying family member and then being the one responsible for clearing and sorting through all the belongings they left behind, I became acutely aware of personal historical artifacts. in addition I am a bit neurotic about collecting dead people’s negatives as I have wandered into many peole’s estate sales and found a closet converted into a darkroom and stacks of negatives (16mm film, 4×5, 35mm and 120) just discarded. family members usually don’t see them as GOLD and they are handed over to me with a strange look and some sort of formality fee of a few dollars. I have boxes and boxes labelled ‘dead people’s negatives’…
(‘of obsessions’ :)
a box of dead people’s un-viewable discs is far less romantic!
///
BURN 01—Excited to see amazing work in print!
“…living in the old old American print newspaper photographer tradition in terms of your tastes..which are probably not even your real tastes but tastes which were bored into you by the newspaper….a prisoner of the small town audience and mostly the advertising created for this audience…”
——————————————————-
And yes i will agree with D this time…break your chains, evolve…try something else instead of pleasing your SMALL TOWN audience and your advertisement boss just to pay your mortgage…
stop being a PRISONER…
GO BURN,show all those smalltownTimers and NYtimers and LAtimers that there is life beyond a GM sponsor or your local strip club or restaurant sponsorship…
but i know, i know, paying your SUV payment or your mortgage is way more important than being free , is way more important than Art…Then do it,..pay your Capital One card, be nice with your bank and diss every other Jukka out there..because they dont fit in your stereotypical world…
GO BURN…set the example…what if some wont get it or like it…?
well, who cares?
jesus crucified, kennedy shot, lennon shot, ghandi abused….
old traditional press is dying…and as Nietzsche once said..if something needs to die, then let it die…
corporate america dictates the pjs what or how to shoot…then they come to teach u how is done…how it should be…believe in the american dream, pay your mortgage and shut up…thats how the editors wants me to think…i got news for them…
buy BURN 01…discover the “hidden” message…see if u find it..;)
So go ahead mr skoulidas, what is being free??
free? Free is BURN, BURN01…free is a book/mag with no advertisement every other page…
Free is not being “embedded” with GMC, Canon or leica or holga…
or else, go buy ANY photo mag out there to see what IS NOT free..
free is publishing yourself, free is Annie DiFranco selling her music herself without having CBS or BMG profiting $19 our $20 from your music…free is submitting your new movie in Slamdance and not Sundance..
free is getting paid $500 from Burn with money that came out for your pocket because you liked my work…
What, so we dont have to PAY for it? cool. Wake up.
Wake up.
————
ok i will…hopefully someday i’ll be as awaken as you…(dont count on it though)
Ok,I am down in Venice…
All drinks on me…come on…BURNIANS…
BURN 01 hiiiiiii… Ouzo and wines and beers and whiskeys and sodas
Love is coming back to get you…
Ok, I am the happiest civilian on earth…
SPACECOWBOY come over :)))))))))))))
DIEGO,ANTONNNNNN,MIKEC…all of you,iii,of course our free spirit…
MR.HARVEY…all of you my baby BURNIANS…I love you …ALLLLLL
Thank you ….thank you thank you…and viva…
If there is a vision …there is BURN…
My mission is accomplished …believe in you my freaking BURNIAANS…
Find your voice…life is short…
P.S KATIEEEE and to all of you that u believed in me…
MYGRACIE,DAVIDB,BOBBY,PANOS,ROSSY,LEEE,EVA,LASSAL,HAIK,AUDREY,HERVE,OURPATRICIA,
AKAKIEEEE!TOMY,POMARA,FROSTFROG,GORDON,SIDNEY,REIMAR,KATHARINA,VICKY,
VALERY,WENDY…
so many …so many …you are all in my heart…and I have a big one…
Oups…where are the toilets in Venice…hmmm…I might be back
THANk you…
Where are the toilets
“Free is not being “embedded” with GMC, Canon or leica or holga…”
C’mon Panos, don’t diss the Holga embedding thing… I’ll double the last Holga commision I gave you, paper bag under the table, nudge nudge, wink wink…
SHAKA
Thank you so much for your thoughts. The word ‘consideration’ is not exactly what I was meaning – ‘having empathy’ with the subject is perhaps closer. Both of these quotes hint at what I was trying to say. Not everone does this, but when the they do the photographs reflect it:
“When I photograph someone I try to put myself in their place. These women in India that I have been photographing, I have absolutely nothing in common with, but at the same time I feel a deep concern about their way of living, their way of surviving, their way of protesting. It’s an identification, a way of identifying yourself in the person you are photographing.” ~ Martine Franck
“If a photographer cares about the people before the lens and is compassionate, much is given. It is the photographer, not the camera, that is the instrument.” ~ Eve Arnold
Michael Kircher as you know I didn’t bother to reply to your unsolicited email, don’t email crap to me as I am not interested in what you have to say……………………
Panos. No, hopefully you will one day get rid of that massive chip on your shoulder and start making some pictures. maybe you will stop being some name dropping hero worshipper and put that very expensive ‘toy’ that you have to some good use. i certainly hope that you do…but I wont be holding my breath.
Oh,yeah…and JENNY,IMANTS,MATTHEW,PETEG,MR.VINK,KATIA,ANDREA,ANNA-MARIE,LAURA,LISA,
KERRYYYY,JOHNYG,AITKEN,ABELE,MATT,THOMASSSSS,STELIOS,PAUL,CATHY…
So many of you…LOVE..
I need to find a toilet…I am so excited
Ohhh…YES,MICHAELK,AAANDREWB…
More names…JIMMYYYYYY…
GO BURN…where is JIMMY???
put that very expensive ‘toy’ that you have to some good use
———————————
not my fault u dont like my work..u have every right to…but im glad some of the “heroes” do…
goodnight over there..
its morning here though..
Ross..:)))))))))))))
sorry , im taking this “holga” thing back..actually it would have been super cool if holga sponsored burn..:)
but I wont be holding my breath.
——————————
laughing..please dont…u gotta stay alive to see my next essay coming up..;)
Lime…Venice toilets…I am gonna hold my breath…
Come on BURNIANS…
Be
U
Right
Now
No paper…aouchhh
Civi!
PANOS
Just for the record, do you generally insult people you know absolutely nothing about? I will let my work and resume speak for itself. But since I don’t know, I will ask. What exactly are your credentials?
JOHN GLADDY
Amen.
Ross it would have been super cool if holga sponsored All Blacks
Panos…
Are you for real arguing that we should forgo thinking for ourselves and just follow the lead of the Jurors of this (or any other) contest??…
I’m sure that when Bruce Gilden is presented with a bunch of photos to look at, he does so without caring if they have received praises from anyone else or not… he looks at them with his own eyes and makes up his own mind about them…
Similarly, I don’t care if Bruce Gilden, DAH or god himself has put out word that this-or-that work is the best that has ever been produced in the history of photography…
The only opinion that matters to me is mine… and I’m not gonna be intimidated by anyone’s name into submission…
——————–
For the record, I do like Jukka’s work… I find it to be a faithful representation of the world he describes… I just don’t see it as the exceptional piece of work that it’s presented here to be…
——————–
‘night from this side of the globe…
What exactly are your credentials?
————————————-
homeless…
u happy now? (im sure u are;)
Imants; “Ross it would have been super cool if holga sponsored All Blacks”
No they don’t make hair gel! Gotta look styley before you run onto the field! :-)
The only opinion that matters to me is mine…
——————————————–
Thodoris this is your philosophy, fine
…but not mine…good night to you to:)
ALL
reading the comments from the last few days…
We’ve been busting ass for months to make something special possible for BURN (David and Diego and Anna Maria and the photographers and writers and myself), and this is the kind of atmosphere one comes back to?
What’s up?
I can’t think of anything else to say but that I feel sad.
a
homeless…
u happy now? (im sure u are;)
That proves you know nothing about me.
funny thing though, Thodoris is that most Bruce G. haters here , submitted to him…hmmm paradox?
why submit to someone u dont respect?
hmmmm, paradox…
Pete true, i dont know anything about you although it seems u know much about me..!
is this the core of your problem?
The only opinion that matters to me is mine….. so why bother reading other’s opinions seeing they don’t matter to you?
Admin, blame it on me…
im one of the few that is not jealous of Jukka being a finalist;)
big hug
Hey Anton…
What did you expect?
You named the place BURN…
So you got to expect flames now and then, right?
:))
Big bravo for the print version!!!
Ross with their winning record I doubt if supporters care how the look
So you got to expect flames now and then, right?
————————————-
ha ha , true;)
“Ross with their winning record I doubt if supporters care how the look”
I’m sure they care though! We’ll see tonight, probably Wallaby for dinner!
Imants; Problem is that they’ll play out of their skins this year; and then choke at the World Cup next year. Last year’s Wallaby dinners will taste bad when Robbie holds up the World Cup. :-)
Simply put for many here there is an expectation of being represented by an essay, a single, a decent run in the grant process and in the burn book etc which is probably a fair expectation on a personal level. Though we know that that is not how things pan out.
When these expectations do not evolve things go astray especially when work that dices with the edges of what photography can be to be is presented as a finalist.
no,no,no…it’s all my fault…
I left for few days…and the place is on Fire:)))
THODORIS…
Yeap,flames…all over…BURN BURNIANS
ADMIN,
Come on…we are all a big disfuctional family…we fart,we fight,we cry,
We hug,we flirt,we hug,we insult…but in the end …
We are all in the same BURNING melting pot…hiiiiiii…
Oime…
BE
United
Right
Now
Can we send good energy now…
Yea it has been a bit of a bug that world cup choke. I would love to see the All Blacks win the next three world cups as it would be a fair indication of their dominance
Anton/Admin. There has been no blood spilt. No broken bones. Very few actual personal insults, and no one seems to have stolen anyone’s wallet…Quite calm compared to the real world id say.
Panos. Yeah homeless with an iphone and a leica….must be real tough out there :))
I suppose so Imants, but life never runs true to form does it?
Panos. Yeah homeless with an iphone and a leica….must be real tough out there :)
———————————————————
ha ha John…two iphones u mean…i just got the iPhone4…great video…
love u man..big hug :))))))))))))
Some of you my BURNIAANS…will be finalists
Some of you…will be featured in the BURN issue
Some of you…will be given awards
Some of you will be MAGNUMS
Some of you will be NATGEOS
Some of you will be icons
BUT take it from my civilian point of view…
Don’t give up
Find your voice
Find your vision
Be you
Cause the civilians next to you…really love you
Civi
but life never runs true to form does it? Yea that’s what the kids said when I made them walk around the zoo twice to make sure they got all the photos they needed. Atleast the parents had a quiet night.
Imants…
(since you addressed your *unsolicited* comment to me by name…)
When Bob steps in to provide some background information in support of his views regarding Jukka’s (or anyone else’s) work, that is one thing—and thanks for that Bob.
When you however post demeaning and insulting comments towards anyone who has different views, that’s something else, altogether…
Your recurring argument is that if I (or anyone else) don’t like a particular work it’s because I’m not enlightened (like you)…
That if I only opened my mind and let go, I would see the truth and appreciate art in all its glory…
Which is totally empty rhetoric.
Because if you truly subscribed to this notion, you wouldn’t pick and choose when and where to apply it… you would apply it to ALL work out there equally… with the inevitable logical conclusion of this notion being that everything is art, if only you can open your mind wide enough…
Which could be a valid argument, but…
I’m quite certain that you have a fully developed taste in music and in literature and in films and in pretty much everything else—including photography… there are things you like and things you dislike…
You only bring forth this non argument every time you need it and then you put it back in the bag to use it again later…
Keeping an open mind, constantly educating ourselves and allowing for the inevitable change of hearts in any number of issues as we grow older—including our tastes—are all commendable trades… but no one can force his taste on others, and certainly not by insulting them as you constantly do.
Peace,
T.
Oime…where are the BURNING ladies???
Blazing
Under
Righteous
Noise
Hahhah! That was not an answer to Civi’s question! (unless it is?) ;^}
Thanks Theo if you referring the “you” as me, I have not expressed an opinion whether positive or negative about Jukka’s submission in question. All I asked was to qualify your statement about only your opinion being the only one that matters to you and why you bothered to read others opinions.
Go MICHAEL
Go MICHAEL
Burn
Unlimited
Right
Now
I am squeezing my brain…
Where is the wine???
BURN Me Once…
BURN me twice…
PHoto essays on my screen…
Flames are rising…
Try to BURN me
You will succeed…
I need my English 01…
P.S hmmmm…where is my wallet???
Civi, Hiding. Don’t want to get hit with flying debris. LOL (A friend said that stood for Love on Lee–like it).
Anton, I can appreciate your anguish over this. But without fail I see it happen in forum after forum. There is something about anonymity that brings out the worse in some beings.
I love this site and really appreciate the nuggets of brilliance and insight. There is also goofy and other non-photo lesson type stuff but that is part of a community. The meanness I try to ignore. The one time I did not ignore it I got snapped back at right away and it was a useless endeavor. Maybe twice. I do tend to jump to DAH’s defense and shouldn’t.
It would be nice if there was a filter that only allowed people who did not harbor spitefulness, jealousy, or rage but that would be rather boring I think. Just see it for what it is, jealousy or meanness, and pick out the nuggets. You have worked hard. All of you have and I and many more here really, really appreciate the opportunity to be in contact with so many professionals in a field that many of us aspire to.
One of the things that happens is someone posts a link to a controversial news item and that sets off a lot of agitation on the part of some. I would like it better if this site was strictly for photo related discussions, which can meld into other subjects due to content of essays and singles.
So Burnians, I would encourage all of you to let the nasty stuff go and just be comfortable with how you feel and your statements. What do we care what others think of us anyway? The important part is to further our understanding of the work we all love to do and to enjoy the photography. The majority of contributors on this site are here for photography. Think before you post. Reread your posts to ensure you are not dissing someone without meaning to. In this world of being able to respond instantly from iPhones and late night computer sessions some people abbreviate their manners.
Ahhh..Lee, i agree with all you wrote…
but how can u eliminate jealousy from this world?
being competitive is one thing but being envy..!!???
Didnt exactly the same thing happened last year?
2000 people full of hope submitted and then it all came down
to “why him/her and not me”…the “judges are wrong”…
just like this year: ” who the hell is bruce gilden? he cant judge me! only god can judge me…”
and on and on and on…
anyway the only guy i know that has the right to say that :”only god can judge me”
is this guy over here: (click below)
LEE – “So Burnians, I would encourage all of you to let the nasty stuff go and just be comfortable with how you feel and your statements. What do we care what others think of us anyway? The important part is to further our understanding of the work we all love to do and to enjoy the photography. The majority of contributors on this site are here for photography. Think before you post. Reread your posts to ensure you are not dissing someone without meaning to. In this world of being able to respond instantly from iPhones and late night computer sessions some people abbreviate their manners.”
Sigh. Totally agree!
(But then again maybe a few of us are a little too comfortable with how they feel…or just the opposite?)
Anyways, good night to all of you from late night Germany! Yay, BURN 01!
“…And everybody grieves, but still nobody sees
Recollect your thoughts don’t get caught up in the mix
Cause the media is full of dirty tricks…”
THE MEDIA IS FULL OF DIRTY TRICKS
2Pac
Can I sing now???:)))
Goodmorning Europe…DOMINIK…oime…it’s late…
Can you hear the rooster???
Goodnight America…
Love u Australia,Africa,Asia,North,South Pole…
Jet lag hits me…I am in the zone…
LEE,lady B,I am a civilian…I’ve been through flying depress…:)))
BURNIANS…you are unique and amazing
You are “fire”…we can do better…
I believe in you
Back to our regular program…the bar has been raised…
PANOS…I am wearing black
Viva
Despite all the I wanna be the winner check out this again https://www.burnmagazine.org/essays/2009/04/jukka-onnela-a-kind-of-error/
AKAKY
901-2-3…:))))))
:))))))
Jukka Onnela – A Kind of Error
All these photographs were taken in the apartment where I lived between 1999 and 2008. I didn’t consciously document the room, or the life in it, but like in every normal household photographs were taken. Most of the images shown here were taken between 2003 and 2007.
I guess the things, that I wanted to say through my photography during those years weren’t really eclectic as my feelings and ideas about life were extremely bitter and nihilistic, even misanthropic. The reason for the self portraits shown in here is that at the time of taking them I selfishly thought that through my own thoughts and visual ideas, through my personal relationship with this world and through my own problems I could say something about humanbeings in general. It was a naïve idea, but when I was taking the images I was mentally quite exhausted and even if it has been written that photography isn’t psychotheraphy I do believe that taking photographs all the time cleansed me in some ways. I think that it wasn’t a cathartic experience, but an actual feeling and experience of being cleansed of all that I was seeing, looking and thinking. I failed as this medium is extremely limited and automatically leaves things out which means that these images are not exact documents of what happened in and around me, but incomplete and shattered simulations of those things. I failed as it is impossible to capture ones inner life into a damn photograph and it doesn’t matter how extreme the thoughts and feelings are as the photographs of them usually end up being mockeries of the original ideas. I failed as there are moments, acts and words that define us as human beings and I know that these defining moments are not in these images. All the wrong words that were spat out without thinking, all the things that were and are impossible to get in to a photograph are not here. To put it simply it wasn’t the photographs that created this story, but the life that surrounds these photographs.
There are things more important than photography for the sake of photography (or for the sake of psychotherapy) and still I have a feeling, or I hope that these images act as a simulation of certain aspects of this life even if these kind of aspects of life have been shown in a visual language exactly like in these images.
…. it has been written that photography isn’t psychotheraphy I do believe that taking photographs all the time cleansed me in some ways….
——————
Yup… Thank your for that..
Photography isn’t only a job for buying an SUV…
(hey Jukka what’s your credentials? Otherwise I will never give you a job ..;)
it is worth the re-read……….
Ah. Jukka and the apartment. That is why it felt familiar. Didn’t connect that. Thanks Imants. Wow what a life and to have the nerve to document it. Jukka, speechless.
..as for me well few take what I write and do photographically seriously, so that being that I am happily left to my own devices…………… but I have a lot of fun and a pretty nifty journey
Please leave your trophy at the door and wipe those god-damn feet before you enter…..
http://www.etrouko.com.au/imants.htm
Damn Imants… When u gonna learn the basics?
Too much vignette ….
And u expect me to hire you????
How are u gonna be able to shoot your ambulances out there…;)
Or the police cars chasing the homeless:)
How are u gonna be able to shoot your ambulances out there…;)…….. I’ve got a dog
The dog will take care of the police so the homeless are safe
My only fear is being hired to take photos for money again
My only fear is being hired to take photos for money again
—————
Tell me about it.. I don’t mind the Boss tell me what to do but when it comes to photography…?????I go crazyyyy
………and most people just don’t understand that the homeless can afford some stuff just not the home part
Photography is my therapy…
Changing flat tires on the freeway though.. Ahhh, not only my pleasure but also pay for my “expensive toys”;)
Yup, most people don’t understand a LOT of things…
and I don’t complain .. It was always and it will always be like that…
yesyes..
authorship.. taking one self down a road specific to ourselves and trying our best to show others what it felt like.
the more specific our life, the deeper we go into it, the more unique the work – whatever work you do.
what it felt like.. sometimes difficult to even know how it feels for ourselves.. i have lots n lots of photos in the vein of jukkas which i try to keep out of sight and mind for myself.. as i think john g mentioned.. tough to look back with sometimes regret and sometimes romantic associations of a past spent wasting summers..
anyway..
jukkas work – brave to show that as all and everything.. that kind of destruction of self.. laying your bets on a life wasted and hoping someone connects.
i prefer PG tips for my pleasure.. still..
i know and appreciate the flavor of jukkas tea..
just hope he can find a way out of the ‘project’ before producing his lifeswork ends his life.. and that in part is why i refuse to allow myself to ‘like’ the work.. the other part of not allowing myself to ‘enjoy’ his work is stuffed in too many of my neg files.
anyway.
yes.
jukka makes me want to say ‘fuckitall’, chuck in my pretense of comfort and pleasure and thrash my way through the tougher edged life..
can people really make things as bad as possible for themselves, just to see how it is down there?
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm……………..
lots of passion in here which is great.. small chunks of weirdness crumbling off the edges.. let the crumbs fall where they will.
point is to photograph.. too busy to post much here around now..
will do again soon i guess..
n.e. france for a week or so from middle next week..
plans are afoot.
logistics being undertaken. time to move forward for fear of going backwards, or worse, standing still.
yes
d
AND FOR BURN MAGAZINE>
an extraordinary effort on all points.. what a chunky volume.. great GREAT stuff..
thanks to ANTON THE GREAT and DAVID THE AH.
there are too many david B’s..
yesyes.
d
“What I did, anybody can do.”
Weegee
Panos. No, hopefully you will one day get rid of that massive chip on your shoulder and start making some pictures. maybe you will stop being some name dropping hero worshipper and put that very expensive ‘toy’ that you have to some good use. i certainly hope that you do…
————
I read this over and over.. Somehow it hit me..first I got it as an insult.. But soon I realized that John is right..,
Yes true.. Enough talking on my part..
Going back to work
There are some hardships, some really annoying stuff and I’m here arguing with people.. Who cares if I’m right..
I guess I’m scared of what I’m going through and what I’m dealing with…
Absolutely no sarcasm…
John thank you..
I really do..
I’m going to work.. Right now..
Immediately…
Thank you all..
Pete, Anthony and most of all Jukka and
John G..
Peace..
See you all soonest..
(David Bowen big hug man… Thanks for being a good friend)
Can’t wait to see burn 01.
Glad to see everything is as it should be here. Some proclaiming to be the purest of the pure is normal in photography circles. Par for the course. Panos, go take some damn pictures! ha.
Venice Monday?
Burn 01!!!!….Can’t wait to see it either…huge respect to david ah, anton, anna maria and all those names I’ve seen mentioned, for their hard work and dedication.
Panos: Great credentials! I will try to live long enough to see your next essay, sincerely. It is a good reason for staying alive. My credentials are (in full): human being – although I am sometimes ashamed to admit it given that we are destroying life on Earth.
Civi: I am also running to the toilet with excitement! Oime and love ya too!
All Burnians: Have a great weekend! But don’t do anything I wouldn’t do: total freedom above and beyond the golden rule! Cameras at the ready! Go capture it in pixels or on film… charge!
“I’m not gonna be intimidated by anyone’s name into submission…” Who said that? I like that a lot.
A KIND OF ERROR
I was deeply touched reading Jukka’s words. And comparing the two essays fear that he is becoming increasingly disconnected from this world. I see less of ‘him’ in the images – not only because the camera is focused more on ‘the subject’ but because his voice appears not to be appearing ‘in the images’. I feel he is recording reality with less and less of himself in the frame. And that, I find disturbing. Much more disturbing than any of the images which like I said, I find superficial. They are only superficial because ‘he’ is not in them. The gravity and reflectiveness of Jukka’s words will remain in my heart, always… they are a small echo of truth, and eternity…
checking in from on the road to find the burn 01 news, way cool, many thanks to the burn crew, looking forward to order it! cheers..
anton – great news via skype of the fist printed copy – i hope all of you who worked with such dedication are pleased with the results. can’t wait to see it, and i certainly will be purchasing a copy. curious – is it soft like a magazine? or has a stiffer cover?
all re: the sometimes less than nurturing environs around here…i would encourage all of us to remember that first and foremost, we are guests here as well as stewards, and just because our host is away we shouldn’t trash the place, and secondly, that the photo world is indeed VERY small in some ways and the potential for talented, cooperative committed photogs meeting and/or somehow collaborating is quite high. This is one of the starting places for community, this is a form of the artists’ salon. Why not embrace all the goodness for which it is possible? As david bowen wrote “lots of passion in here which is great.. small chunks of weirdness crumbling off the edges..” – clearly…and it seems like an incredible waste to keep fueling the fires of the weird just for fun, when great things can come of this rare and beautiful opportunity that DAH has created for all of us, if this is how we choose to direct our energies.
david b and charles p – I think you are not under 35 yrs, but there is an opportunity for european music photogs 35 or under – let me know if you haven’t heard about it, if you know of someone who qualifies, or if there is someone here reading, let me know and i’ll dig it up.
Erica: I agree. We are guests as well as stewards and on Earth in our every moment as well as on Burn. Please let us know when you see someone fuelling the fires of the wierd just for fun.
“Home is where you hang your head”-groucho marx
sis e: amen…:))
we are stewards of not only road trips/burn, but stewards of one another and some do forget that this home was forged not for David but in David’s determination to give to us: meaning everyone….it is an act of love and generosity…and i think some do forget that david hemmed and hulled this vessel as a way for photographers and loversofphotographers to grow and prosper and connect…the greatest fact of this place (and those i guess who havent seen it develop do not know) is that it has always been about that: the greatest home one can build is not the shelter for oneself but the shelf for another…and david has done that….and that defines the vision of david and anton and each and every person that has helped hammer this place into shape….a house even for folk to attack foolish and impolite and impolitic and injudicious and hateful and jealous and loving and arrogant and embarrassed and just plain human….that’s the real success, to me, of Burn….a vehicle that gives back and helps photographers and still is indeed very much a family and a community….ribald and mad and inextricable….
we are not guests here but are family…david built this place not for himself or for anyone specific but for the entirety of anyone who wish to visit or dwell or stay…..and that’s the genius and the love…
“What should young people do with their lives today? Many things, obviously. But the most daring thing is to create stable communities in which the terrible disease of loneliness can be cured.”-Vonnegut
and old folk too :))
My BURNING ladies are in the room …
BOBBY, we are sending good energy to your brother…
BURN is unique, dynamic, boring,unpredictable, sexy…inexticable…
We are real humans…as the above academian wrote…
I see no error…keep moving BURNIANS…
P.S …hiii…we are all kinda drama queens…IMO…hiiii…
Please, no pictures …I am sensitive ti GFI’S…:)))
Love peace and filmography
No pictures???? What? Civi? You think this is a writer’s blog? LOL By the way, I’M NOT A DRAMA QUEEN! Please someone get me a glass of water I feel faint. Maybe someone could fan me, I’m feeling the burning.
Love, light, color and mood.
BobB: I love you! : )
A home. That is a radical idea. I have no idea how long I will stay as I rarely feel ‘at home’ for long. But a virtual roof over my head for this time is just wonderful. David Alan Harvey: I love you! Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. A million times I say: Thank you. : )
There are many out there that will appreciate this: some paperwork that has been sitting on my desk for months embedded deeply in the bureaucratic quagmire they call governance suddenly called so loudly yesterday from the pile that I put the essay I want so badly to tie together aside to complete. Yea. Now that that is done I can get back to my essay.
Oh, that’s right, I am putting on a large dinner party Sunday and today must do the shopping, prepping, setting up of photo booth, poker table, bar. Humm. No doubt after the prepping today I will be free to spend a few hours laying out the prints to once again refresh my memory of my past trauma.
But at least I’M NOT A DRAMA QUEEN….
“can people really make things as bad as possible for themselves, just to see how it is down there?”
Yes, absolutely. This seems to be a phenomenon restricted some of the over-priviledged youth of the western world. The actual under-priviledged of the world don’t seem to participate. I’m trying to view this as a sort of spiritual quest, rather than just plain stupidity.
DAVID B:
I haven’t commented yet on Jukka’s work, mostly because I’m conflicted by it and often with essay’s on here I’m confused about (or just plain don’t like) I find it best to just keep my mouth shut. It’s a magazine after all – I think more people should sometimes just turn the page, STFUP and move on if they don’t like/agree with the choices submitted instead of trying to play editor by proxy. But what David said above is my sentiments exactly. Maybe becoming a parent (as both David B and I have become recently) changes one’s priority’s and outlook on life, or just maybe it’s just getting older and wiser, but I can’t help but look at Jukka’s work and feel sad, and hope he can at some point extend as much energy into living a healthy life as he does documenting this sad fucked up world he inhabits. Of course I may be totally off base as to who he is and how he lives his life. As far as the work goes, seen it all before, Larry Clark, etc, read it, Bukowski, etc, and it really doesn’t move me or tell me anything new. Worthy of an EPF? Probably – (or not?) but that’s none of my fucking business. Whether I like something or not has no bearing on the choices made for inclusion here – the world is bigger than my personal taste and ego.
“Burn family” is a fantastic sentiment, but lets not take that too far. Otherwise, like most families I’ve ever known, it can quickly become insular, dysfunctional, and jealousy and resentments arise, much like I’ve witnessed over the last few days in the comments. Kinda sad really, and people really have to learn when to put the shovel down and pull themselves up out of the holes they dig themselves into. Perhaps take a break from posting and actually do some work, live some life. And if you feel insulted then don’t insult back. Or if you insult then expect it might come back at you and be the bigger person and lump it and move on. It’s all vapor and ash – keep your mind on what truly matters.
And congrats on BURN 01!!! My credit card is waiting and burning. Where do we order???
Best and hugs to all,
Charles
LEE,
Thanks for that reply back on teaching highschoolers. Good advice, and yes, finding what moves each of them, and how to translate that into their photography in an intimate way is key. I think I’m going to go through my books and put together images for my next talk that speaks exactly to that. I did show them the BURN site – a couple of them seemed truly interested in it.
ERICA:
Thanks. Being 46 and not European (and rarely shooting music these days) looks like I’m out of the running. Perhaps John G might be interested? Maybe post the info here for all? Thanks for thinking of us though!
CP
Erica, Bob…
Yes… Burn IS the best place around about photography…
I disagree though on that debating amongst ourselves means disrespecting David, or being unappreciative to this amazing place he has build for us. This segment of Burn is called dialog after all, and it’s at least as important as the publishing part of this site.
Every now and then inevitably, people have opposing ideas and they “fight it out”, sometimes in a more polite and respectful way and sometimes in a more aggressive way. You can choose to sit back silently disagreeing with what someone says, or you can choose to participate… In the end though, these discussions are one of the main things that sets apart Burn from the pack… at least for me… I believe that only by putting our ideas to the test can we see how well they stand (or not)… and there are many people in here who offer lots of food for thought, no matter if you agree or disagree with their views or with their manners…
————————————————-
Anyhow, I read this the other day:
“Even when you win an online debate, you’re still a loser…”
It had me laughing so hard, I almost fell off the chair…
Charles, glad you got something from it. Also, another technique I learned from DAH was to just look at them as if expecting them to come up with the answers instead of trying to answer every single question they ask. And they ask tons of questions, questions that you can spend the whole class answering. DAH would make one statement during a critique that would sound odd at first but if I set back and pondered it instead of asking questions it would become clear. Maybe not right then but sometime in my outings for photos of the day it would hit me what he was talking about. That worked too. I quit worrying about whether these middle schoolers could understand every single thing I brought up and just put it out there. Also, lecturing about photography never works for me. I start off the class (first day) outlining our goals, format, etc., but each day after that was downloading photos and right into critiquing then out to shoot. It really kept their attention; it seems education today is all about talking heads at the front of the class. Students appreciate the break.
Good luck with your class; maybe you could post their work at the end of the semester and let us see what they came up with. That is a good idea for me too. I could post what my students did and you could see some of the results. Interested in that? Would post on Picasa and link directly to your email.
Lee: “One of the things that happens is someone posts a link to a controversial news item and that sets off a lot of agitation on the part of some. I would like it better if this site was strictly for photo related discussions, which can meld into other subjects due to content of essays and singles.”
I have posted some links here to controversial news items relating to questions concerning photography and journalism. I have also been congratulated for the great discussion that arose from them. Are you suggesting that this should be stopped?
AKAKY: Okay, I’ll bite.
AKAKY IRL: You’ll bite what?
AKAKY: This: what’s an akakiiitomy?
AKAKY IRL: A medical procedure to remove cancer of the pseudonym.
AKAKY: You’re making that up.
AKAKY IRL: Yes, I am.
AKAKY: Thought so. Still, I wonder what that is, anyway.
AKAKY IRL: Beats the hell out of me.
all I can bite… for now is my left toenail…when can we order the BURN 01???
LEE…(I meant)no pictures of me…:)))LOL…I know…
dinner party in your house…oime,we are coming over!!!
JENNY,
virtual roof…hmmm…
be prepared cause the roof ,the roof is on Fire!!!
I guess …we all need a BURNitomy cause we are addicted to “Vision”
I love you ALL.My Drama Queens and Kings …you are all freaking amazing…
Spread the love,spread the news,anyway…spread something…
P.S ADMIN…does the book come with a BURNing smell…???
KATIEEEEEEEE…I need update…
and from many other BURNIANS…
hmmm…I am a needy civilian…after all:)))
the sky is not the limit…the limit is in us…
ok…I might be back
Jenny, not at all. I am just sayin’ what tends to happen. Your post was about photography.
But then again, it did lead to emotional, heated postings. But that is not what needs to be weeded out of a forum like this, IMO of course. It is a self regulation we need. The filters I spoke of in an earlier post can be within us–to resist posting mean words. This is what the Dalai Lama talks to us about all the time. The importance of speaking and treating everyone with kindness. We all do most of the time. Most of us here on occasion have spoken unkindly. I say here that if I have hurt anyone’s feelings by what I say please forgive me.
That feels better already.
Party prep going on. Coconut dried (from our trees), coconut milk prepared for baking tomorrow, fresh fish cleaned and waiting for banana leave wrapping and some kind of as yet undetermined stuffing, lamb and chicken baked with some nice thing, Mojitos made with ginger ale, and coconut cake. And a good amount of vegetables from the local farmer’s market today. Oh and music by my dj roommate. How convenient is that?
I am having a lot of fun. And I am enjoying this fun. Tomorrow lots of photos to be taken; setting up a photo booth to take photos and allow others to use the camera. I can’t wait to see all the photos from those shots.
Who knows, maybe I will get a photo to finish my story essay that started in NYC. Then my statement of ‘a photographer has to finish the story’ is really true for me. September I turn 60. Another decade beginning full of new stories I’m sure. Each decade has proved out to be so. I am ready for this story to be finished and the new one already begun flushed out over the next.
Somehow it feels like New Year’s Eve.
Panos. Love your new quest. Your book lies just there on the table so I can see it when I glance that way. Those photos of the folks in the van are at the top of my list of favorites in you Venice Beach book. Your catch all way of shooting is excellent. Details of life can be very trying; look up and see your next step Grasshopper. Said with kindness and a giggle.
DAVID –
Below is a copy of an earlier post I put on Burn which culminated from the discussion we had concerning the cover of TIME magazine. The cover raises many important questions including the rights of the photographer (re. image use); the rights of the subject (re. fair representation of the subject); and the difference between quality and ‘gutter press?’ journalism. It pressed/continues to press all my buttons given that it copies a cover of National Geographic and has created war propaganda (that Goebbels would have been proud of). Here is the post in case you missed it:
—————————————————
DAVID – (ALAN HARVEY)
I would like to hear your opinion on the cover of TIME magazine generally but also, specifically, whether given that it is highly reminiscent of the National Geographic’s cover 25 years ago that is already seared into the minds of people across America, whether you feel it is an affront to National Geographic. That cover had a neutral title Along Afghanistan’s Border – TIME’s cover has “What happens if we leave Afghanistan?” and therefore appears to have used a former National Geographic cover to create war propaganda.
Lee: Put de lime in de coconut and shake it all up! I hope you’ll be playing that song! It sounds just perfect – a fresh coconut party! Enjoy!!!
the family.
actually, I do not agree to this picture. I have heard this many times also on other websites and communities, where many people seem to stay there persistantly.
The main difference is freedom of choice. In a family, I have no choice. My parents are my parents, my siblings are there whether I like this or not.
Here, everything is different. – DAH is an experienced photographer, a host, a mentor, I am a fan, a student and one and foremost – a guest. And bound to being a guest comes an etiquette. Some unwritten rules of behaviour. Some stay more others stay less within those boundaries, and it is tolerated in some way.
The free choice makes the difference. I appreciate the site, the people, everything. I learn a lot from everybody being active, and sometimes people feel as close as family. But actually, they are not.
We are guests.
Agree with Thomas. It’s not family, thanks heaven, it can grow, among some, to friendship, I might find a kindred spirit, but I’m not stuck, nobody is, not even David AH, he’s free to fold the place tomorrow if he sees fit, again, thanks heaven.. freedom of choice is a nice thing..
THODORIS…
your argument is that you do not care what anybody thinks, which means you will not be surprised that nobody cares what you think..so if nobody cares what anybody else thinks, then what is the point of a discussion??
the logic of this is of course very self satisfying in that you always come out on top of every discussion by simply saying “well, i like what i like”..fantastic…hope you feel better because of it….but, in that case since Thodoris has now “told us” please ,”show us” (as have Gilden and Sanguinetti)…show us your work, your book, your cred….nobody would suggest that you “follow” just because they are who they are…on the other hand until you make your own mark, your voice is going to ring a bit hollow in the circles of serious discussion…just reality
nobody would suggest that say Alessandra Sanguinetti or a Bruce Gilden or anyone has a “better eye” than do you, but they do have some credibility and some knowledge a generally acknowledged body of work and some published works etc and you might just learn something from either or both…again, you can reject their opinions…i mean, what could be easier??
sure, anybody has the right to an opinion….but human nature being what it is , some opinions are held higher than others…if this were not the case, then there would be no such thing as artistic judgments of any kind…
i think the last thing you want to become is the old cynic who is just going to poo poo whatever new talent comes along and is for whatever reason set apart….unfortunately the world of photography creates many of these bitter and lost photographers who find their way to the pages of blogs etc all over the place…sad…in the meantime the astute and the talented will flourish
it remains to be seen how Jukka or Emily Schiffer or Victor Cobo will evolve and grow…but i can assure you that over the long haul of many years the combined opinions of those considered to have credibility in their respective professions will indeed be measured…hate to use a cliche but can’t help it in this case…those who talk the talk but cannot walk the walk will forever be a sad voice with no audience…
most of the super best real artistic geniuses in the world are sitting at the end of a bar somewhere…man do THEY think!! the second best folks are out there busting ass..writing plays, making movies, taking pictures….hmmm, wonder what the world would look like if the “best” just got off the bar stool ???
you are a young man and with a new book coming….i look forward to it….i plan to publish it here on Burn….your work is very different from the work we have been discussing….compelling in a totally different way….i like it a lot….please please stay young …open minded…and of course on a straight line to your own ends….i would wish nothing else for you…..peace…
cheers, david
THOMAS,EVA,
I like the “guests” as definition better…see, you are photophilosophers
…you have to be free spirited,Free to roam, ready to conquer the freeways of vision…
Real Family…is where you can go back …and rest your vision…(it can be bad and good)
Well, whatever it is… BURN is BURN…it’s has been bookmarked in many brain cells …
You are very lucky people BURNIANS…
ENJOY your ride Now!!!
P.S KATIEEE…come over…LEE has a party…with coconuts??? Hmmm…what’s wrong with
some roasted oregano lamb:)))
respect
Do you listen BURNIANS…
Get off the freaking bar stool …and this time …I am not kidding.
A lot of all this hoo haa arises due to the death of classic photojournalism, but that is the way of things. I am sure that it is not easy on anyone involved with any media as we go through this cusp of change from what was to what isn’t to what we don’t know.
ERICA…
i would say that BURN 01 is more of a book than a magazine…soft cover like a magazine, but with 300 pages and 24 essays….i actually just call it an edition…we are only printing 1000 copies and that will be that….no ads…fine Italian printing and binding….a collector edition to be sure…
of course no matter how unique is BURN 01 and i honestly think it is (remember , not my work , but yours) we will undoubtedly receive the same attacks and bitterness we receive for the EPF choices…why? because not everyone here is in it….BURN 01 represents some of this audience, but not all of it..
we have tried to do a good thing for photographers, and as Anton said a few comments back, it is sad to see how many react….serious critique is one thing and would be welcomed…unfortunately the nature of the net allows fast reactions , little thinking on the part of many, or a disappointing display of little or no basic photo history education…
on the other hand, BURN 01 does exist…in our hands…hard copy…..from an online audience…so whatever has come from my foray into the online world, this will surely be testimony….will i care what anyone thinks?? sure, smiling….i hope you like it….
cheers, david
maybe it is all about showing that cannot be seen
what not to love :)
IMANTS…
you are quite right…however, seems like very interesting times out there to me…and surely there will be some so called “classic photojournalism”, but just not with the same venues as before….and some of the stuff that is dying is supposed to die…..shoulda gone long ago…
cheers, david
David…
Everything you just wrote is true… actions speak louder than words… and only time will tell whose work will leave a mark and whose will not…
I would ask you kindly though to please go back and reread my post about my opinion being the only one that matters here:
https://www.burnmagazine.org/dialogue/2010/07/ability-to-tell/comment-page-18/#comment-74372
It is only in reference to matters of taste and nothing else…
I am absolutely sure (and please correct me if I’m wrong) that when you (DAH) look at anyone’s work—either as a juror, an editor or a mentor—you judge the work for yourself and pay no attention whatsoever to any accolades that work might have.
Also, I’ve never been in a Magnum meeting, but I would guess that not everyone between you guys agree on the value of any particular picture/body-of-work in front of you. There must be works that Gilden likes and you don’t, right?
And for the record, I did not have the audacity to state anywhere that my opinion and/or taste should be regarded carrying the weight of yours or of Gilden’s… what I said was I prefer to look at any given work with my own eyes and I make my own mind.
Respectfully,
Thodoris
Interesting sometimes, the line between respecting authority and worshipping, or submitting to it. I trust you, David, respected the oldsters who dismissed color as a legitimate photographic art form, yet you ended up teaching them a thing or two.
Regarding bitterness and the EPF, I wasn’t here last year and it’s true I don’t read all the comments, but I haven’t noticed any of these petty attacks of which so many of you speak. It seems to me that the critiques directed at the finalists’ work are no different than normal.
BOB…THOMAS B
you are both right…a type of family has grown here, but it is a family of choice…any of us can come or go at any time…i always like the idea of organisms which are born, evolve, blossom ,and die but either reproduce or leave behind vestiges for whatever follows…
embracing this evolution is the whole beauty of it…
realizing when you are “in the moment” is crucial to photographers obviously, but photographers are just ordinary people who have cameras, but who temporarily think they are not ordinary people because they have cameras, but can really become something special when they realize they are ordinary, but do something about it with their cameras…
peace…driving all day…20 cups of coffee probably….back later….
cheers, david
MW…
i think you are probably right…no different than normal…i guess it is the “normal” that is wearying to those of us who put so much time into this…we always fantasized a more sophisticated critique…
i do not see anything in this as “worshiping authority”…yuk, gag, ….heaven forbid…but photography is like ice skating or the high dive….juried…..unlike the 50 yard dash or the stock market, based on clear cut numbers….
remember the blasts by Roger Ballen?? i was with him all the way in his reaction to this audience….
but, i also know intellectually this just goes with the territory of an open net blog…we have thought about closing comments since the beginning, but saw too many good sides to it…i receive many many private emails from my colleagues wondering why comments are not edited or dropped completely…movie directors or actors must just have to harden themselves beyond all belief to read or listen to movie reviews…i suppose they listen to those they trust or respect, and simply brush off those they consider silly or inane…or realize they made a really bad movie!! when i say good critique, i do not mean “gee boys you picked the right guy” kind of critique…i mean a well written well educated critique…like yours (usually)..smiling..
THODORIS…
thank you…ok, clear….sometimes i am reading a combo of four or five comments at once and can get a bit confused….my mistake, or misinterpretation….
cheers, david
DAH…
Regarding BURN 01…
Will you have the whole print run shipped to the US and then distribute worldwide from there, or will you use some other way of distribution?
I’m asking because I’d like my copy signed both by you and Anton, if at all possible…
Getting off my stool … thanks for motivating me.
Actually I think of some singles .. and being “pregnant” with a little story.
But instead of talking, I should submit…
Thanks David. I think what separates this comment section from the norm is that many of the regulars have met in the real world, or at most have one or two degrees of separation, so perceived attacks are naturally going to be felt much stronger than out in the truly anonymous beyond. The positive side of that is that we are more likely to consider people we have actually met, or friends of friends, as real people and act accordingly. Of course sometimes we slip. Some of us do anyway. Others, cough Charles, cough Erica, cough et.al., are admirable pretty much all the time.
Beyond all the normal booby tracks of critiquing people’s work, sometimes here it goes beyond that and people critique the editorial selection. This is something it took me a long time to see, that those who make the selections sometimes take critique of the essays they present as critiques of their editorial skills. That’s only human. All I can say is that I never mean it that way.
Personally, I’d hate to see the comments closed because I learn the most when someone explains what’s good about work that I initially found lacking. Writing about it is very educational as well since it forces me to get beyond the like/don’t like dichotomy and try to identify and apply some kind of objective standards. And I’d think that people who have their essays published here want the feedback. Don’t they still have the option to close comments under their essay?
I could see moderated comments working, but that would be a lot of work for someone and would require a high degree of assholery. It wouldn’t be fair to the individual burdened with the task. Perhaps you could consider writing up a set of best practices? There would be no edicts, no laws, but Best Practices could be a helpful tool to slap some people (those other people, ha) upside the head with when they get out of line. And by “get out of line” I mean stuff like personal attacks or “that sucks” critiques. I don’t consider the occasional political forays, endless speculation on which country is more backwards, Australia or New Zealand, or links to lame-ass youTube videos as out of line. Those are the things we can choose to enjoy, or just pass over.
Don’t know if this has been posted already:
James Dodd’s ‘Olympic Dreams’ book:
http://www.blurb.com/bookstore/detail/1465344
“realizing when you are “in the moment” is crucial to photographers obviously, but photographers are just ordinary people who have cameras, but who temporarily think they are not ordinary people because they have cameras, but can really become something special when they realize they are ordinary, but do something about it with their cameras…” DAH
My god, I love this! I’m going to share this with my class of high schoolers this week and see if they can get their heads wrapped around this concept. Thank you for that wisdom blast David – it’s one of the reasons I spend as much time here as I do (and probably shouldn’t).
Bob B once wrote to me as I was getting worked up about something on here to keep in mind what is important – such as family, friends, your art, (and maybe laying down a deck like I did this week) and that “all the rest is ash.” I keep that phrase with me at all times now. Doesn’t always work (usually because of that #$$%& driver in front of me), but it is a nice totem to fall back on if need be.
Most of our problems in life are due to fear, unsubstantiated fear that isn’t rooted in anything but our egos. I think that often rears it’s head when confronted with something different, something out of our norm. In Native American sweat lodge ceremonies, which can be really intense and bring one to the brink with fear, the key to not panicking is to throw the fear onto the rocks in the center (the grandfathers). Let the fear rise up and then give it to the grandfathers who will burn it up.
So think about the emotions that arise when confronted with something you don’t like. And before posting let them dissipate a little. Then what comes out might be a bit more reasoned, polite, and constructive. And if your feelings are hurt by somebody disagreeing with you, lets agree to say so instead of just hurling an attack back. And remember it’s ultimately all ash…..
Charles
DAH, Jenny, and all,
My comment in regards to the term “authorship” was not meant to start a heated discussion, but rather just an attempt at clarifying the meaning of the term. And yes DAH, you’re right, “I don’t seem to get it”. I guess what I’m trying to get at is understanding what makes the difference between someone who perhaps has his/her own style but is clearly heavily influenced by what others have done before and/or at the same time, and “authors”. You also made a comment a while back eluding to the fact that someone who made a comment on Burn was heavily influenced by American newspaper photography. Were you not heavily influenced by it as well David? It may be a bit condescending to put American newspaper photography on a lower level than something else than in reality comes out of this tradition.
I’m just worried that “authorship” may perhaps lean towards the term “art” which seems to lack important elements that came out of that story telling tradition. It’s as if anything goes. I totally agree that photographers can be artists and vice versa, but is it also not true that many many very good photographers today are following in the footsteps of the likes of HCB, of course adding their own twist on things…you for example DAH? Who is the author? And was HCB the author, or Eugene Atget?…ok….I’m confusing myself now…signing off.
Burn 01 only a thousand copies…where do we line up?
And yes DAH, you’re right, “I don’t seem to get it”.
….following in the footsteps of the likes of HCB,..
——————————————————-
ok David Bacher here what John Lennon said about your authorship question…
Authorship= “start something new, you know…once something is been Done is been done..why this nostalgia?
Dont copy”
“everything u do is the same thing , so do it the same way..your way”
Find your voice..
John Lennon
Hi Panos,
Ok, I just barbecued a couple nice steaks on the grill and had a cold beer so my mind is a bit clearer now.
I totally understand that Lennon clip Panos. Of course it’s wonderful to start your own new thing and I am by no means saying what was done in the past is the best way of doing things. However, I do feel that today many people are indeed doing what was done already and claiming it to be something new and uncharted territory when it really isn’t.
I understand that photography is an art form and is not based on predetermined mathematical equations. However, there exists a group of photographers like myself, who perhaps like, understand, and merit the work of the HCBs and Robert Franks of the world. There is a long list of photographers today whose work would fit in this framework and I don’t want to name names and start another heated barrage of posts on Burn. As a side note I’m referring to HCBs more lyrical work, not his “photojournalist” assignments for Life magazine and others.
On another level, I think many of these photographers feel that there are perhaps some restraints or guidelines of what make a “good” photograph. Again, I know I may start treading in deep water here, so I’ll try being as clear as possible. I’m thinking about “decisive moment” photography that goes beyond your normal reportage, assignment work. There are certain geometric elements that draw a viewer into these kinds of photos….the thirds rule…playing with depth of field etc. Then there is the ability of capturing moving objects, people, animals, cars, whatever and arranging them in a way that again is pleasing to the eye. Then there is the third element, and perhaps now this is where the term “authorship” comes into play. This may be how all of these elements coalesce and take the image to another level? I’m thinking of MCB’s photo from his China series with the poster of Tibet in the background where people are cheering. So you have all the geometrical elements that make it a great picture and then you add this irony that lifts it to another level…am I making sense??
I feel that there is indeed a place for this kind of photography today and that it’s continuation should be merited and looked up to rather than degraded as something has merely been done before. And I don’t think it’s possible to copy another photographer DAH. Perhaps, yes there are photographers who like to follow a certain tradition and attempt to tweak it and take it to another level in their own way rather than completely trying to break all rules and create something that in the end makes absolutely no sense from a documenting perspective.
good night all
David, i agree with you..First we Study the iconics, the Masters, we learn the history, develop respect, then we proceed with what we have to say (if we have something to say that is), then we work on our voice…
Magnum is one of the sources out there to educate ourselves..not the only one but a major one…
Finding our own voice is very very important…your voice=your authorship..
and there is nothing harder than finding “that” voice…
HCB, DAH, D’Agata or Nikos Economopoulos for example DID find their voice…
John Lennon did find his voice, but think of that american imitators (“the Monkeys”),
they will never leave a mark…two reasons: they did it for the cash, not only they never tried to find their voice,but more important they never had one to begin with..
thats what all those newspaper editors of today remind me: “The Monkeys”…
“Sing like the Beatles they ask me, be a Monkey, keep your job”…
1:23pm here..harsh light…few more hours till the golden light comes and then shooting..shooting..
big hug David B..:)
RE Lennon
http://henrimag.com/blog1/?p=2751
its either “authorship” or “karaoke”..:)
Walter, yes yes , we all know that it is altered by Citroen…nevertheless i was talking about his message..big hug..more to dissect here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=18pLuNT9P4A&feature=related
(Marilyn involved)
big hug
“…To paraphrase Picasso, “Artists steal.” They took what they needed and built their own innovations, and it was those innovations that changed our relationships to our past. We began to see Velazquez or Manet in a different way because, the innovation, the new idea, used the precedent in a different way…”
yes Steal, not just copy ;)
David if you need to place things into respective boxes in order to make sense of it all be prepared to keep on collecting box after box after box. One either becomes the critic or the photographer you cannot be both at once,the audience /critic will decide whether your work has authorship
and thats the beef with the old school newspaper editors of today…they dont let u “steal and innovate”..
They force you to “copy”
,the audience /critic will decide whether your work has authorship
———————————————–
absolutely…
*the audience /critic will decide whether your work has authorship*
So do you think you can have it without realizing?
Is it that you’re so involved in what you’re doing that it’s an unconscious thing?
Yes…so involved in what you’re doing+looseness+having something to say..;)
And if your local newspaper does not like your work!!??
Then you are obviously on the right path;)
Panos. Don mcullen worked for newspapers his whole life, and is probably one of the finest living war /documentary photographers. dont get your beef with pj work.
I am sure most realise their authorship as the look back at what they produce it becomes a consistent element within the work. I doubt if it all is a unconscious thing, sure there are principles of process that one no longer consciously has to deal with but most work in a direct conscious methodology.
John my take is that Panos is on more about what the editors do with the work………
Hi all.
I came to spam my new work… I had my street photography set on Burn last winter and after getting bored on taking pictures of strangers, I decided to do the opposite: to photograph my own life and things/moods closest to me… This is what I came up with: http://strap-photos.com/photosets/zlin/index.htm
Cheers,
Petri
authorship is not necessary visual
I check in at the Vivien Maier site now and then. This is such an amazing story..http://vivianmaier.blogspot.com/
“Don mcullen worked for newspapers his whole life, and is probably one of the finest living war /documentary photographers.”
And I wonder how many would publish his work today. Few.
Interesting opinion calling the time of death of photojournalism from Neil Burgess. (Thanks to Bryan Formhals for posting the link) … “For God’s sake, somebody call it!”
DEAR BURNIANS
I have been part of this community since April 2008. You have taught, challenged, supported and confused me. All was a necessary part of my growth as a photographer and a human being. I would not be who I am had we not met and connected. Some of you I have met in person, some through Skype and emails, and others through our ongoing dialogue first on Road Trips and now on Burn. Please know that I wish you well and hope you will always feel free to contact me through emails or Skype. My email addy is playdorsey@comcast.net and my Skype name is patricialaydorsey. You can always find my photo essays on my website at http://www.patricialaydorsey.com
I say all this because I see that it is time for me to move on.
I’ve just spent the past week with 4000 women who, for 35 years, have created an annual festival where we do our very best to live cooperatively on 650 acres of land, camping, enjoying live music and dance, participating in workshops, cooking and eating fresh vegetarian food cooked by the women over huge firepits, caring for our children of all ages, and sharing the load by volunteering for two 4-hour workshifts in whatever areas best suit our needs and abilities. We are women from all over the world, of different ages, races, ethnicities, sexual orientations, educational and economic backgrounds. We are a diverse bunch but each woman is treated with respect and kindness. Of course there are moments when tempers flare and folks get cranky, but, after 14 years, I can say that is rare. We’ve created a world that empowers and enlivens each of us who is open to receiving the gifts that abound.
I come away knowing I must choose to surround myself with similar energy to that found at the festival. Negative energy is bad for my health. I must avoid it at all costs. Unfortunately much of the dialogue here on Burn crosses over into the negative places that injure rather than empower. And I am not talking about critiques of essays or selected photos. I expect most readers know what I am talking about.
I leave with boundless gratitude to David and Anton for creating Burn Magazine — and now Burn 01 — and for modeling the empowering, enlivening energy that is a gift to our world. As I say, please stay in touch with me if you feel so inclined. I may be leaving Burn but I am certainly not leaving the individuals here.
May the light always shine in the ways you want, the shadows be rich and mysterious, and your creative spark be ignited by the world within and without. May you find peace.
hugs from
Patricia
Tom:
Here is a reply to Burgess’ rant… Not excatly the same attitude…
http://www.gholubowicz.com/bulb/2010/08/sortir-du-cadre-interview-mark-lubell/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+bulbphoto+%28bulb%2C+Gerald+Holubowicz+photojournalist%29
Dear Patricia :)
As our friend John G, said earlier “nobody stole anyone’s wallet”…
so relax…I understand if u dont feel like reading comments or contributing with words but
you mentioned a nice festival you are involved..why not photograph it and share it with us?
You said that you are leaving Burn but not the individuals..well Burn is essays, work and
those individual’s opinions etc…
I still dont understand what exactly are you “leaving”…?
My friend Jim P. also got tired of commenting but that doesnt prevent him of looking on new work, right?
I mean i see you are disappointed..thats obvious, but from what exactly?
There have been numerous disagreements in the past..way more aggressive attitudes too..
many things changed..for the history i consider myself responsible too for craziness and misunderstandings..
but lately ? only the “black girl” essay and “jukka’s essay” provided food for misunderstandings..
I dont know Patricia, you choose your life etc, of course..
believe me im not trying to “convince” you..I just trying to understand your letter above because
somehow im not convinced…
Im confused as to how you wish to continue contact with the individuals here but not continue being around BURN..at the same time you praise David and Anton who are basically, BURN..
I dont know, i see a contradiction here…
Patricia you sound very hurt to me..I dont know what it is that hurt you but im not convinced that it
is some comments or some negative silliness that it was always present one way or another…
Yes i agree with you, protect yourself from negativity as you have done lately…i havent seen you around and i thought you were not even reading all comments..im not reading all comments either, trust me nobody does…
so, what is it?
what is it that really bothers you? and what a coincidence when you announce your resignation right when we are ready to celebrate BURN o1???
PATRICIA…
Burn is totally set up to create positive energy , so if the opposite is happening for you, then yes yes you must move on….
i do however suspect that if the Burnians community gathered once a year for a week, you would feel the same about them as you do about your festival of 4,000 women….the daily community of living side by side day after day is quite different in its bonding and import than annual gatherings….just as any real relationship is different than any passing romance…not exactly a parallel, but i think you get my point…
when you say you are leaving the “Burn community” i assume that means leaving and/or not being a writer on the comment section where i have written many times over accounts for only a very small percentage of the Burn readership….
since new work and new stories are going to be coming , i surely hope you do not miss them…
i think your “negative energy” vibe, whatever its source, is indeed coming from “comments”…so, that’s an easy remedy…just do not click on comments!!
no reason not to be a reader albeit not a commentator….while i will definitely miss your clear concise and always appropriate comments, i absolutely also respect your bow to your health concerns and your wish to be negative energy free….
Patricia, your contribution here is clear and set in stone…Falling Into Place is one of the most personal, nicely styled, and clearly authored pieces we have ever published here on Burn….
i will see it as a book until the cows come home…and if Burn 01 works, then we will indeed have a Burn imprint to do as we wish with books….in any case, what a pleasure it was to work with you on FIP…the process was quite amazing as i hope you will remember…culminating on that warm summer night under the Williamsburg Bridge with your photos spread out over two tables as i recall…great moment alongside a whole bunch of others…positive energy remembered i hope…this body of work will last believe me….and i look forward of course to your next epic….Patricia Lay Dorsey cannot wander too far off….of this i am sure….
hugs, love, cheers, david
PATRICIA..
p.s. funny..Panos and i posted simultaneous….posted mine, then read his….his comments/questions are right on …i was not putting two and two together the way he was…astute boy Panos…he is right …this cannot really have much to do with comments…
this is the key sentence….sets up the contradiction and the confusion over what it is you are really talking about…hmmmmm
“Unfortunately much of the dialogue here on Burn crosses over into the negative places that injure rather than empower. And I am not talking about critiques of essays or selected photos. I expect most readers know what I am talking about.”
well, i do not know for sure what you are talking about, but beginning to sense it based on Panos’ comment……however i do respect your decision and for whatever reasons…your reasons are yours and yours alone….
cheers, david
p.s.s…
i did just spend the last hour and a half going back over all the dialogue for the last month….there just is not anything in there Patricia that could be described as anything more than annoying or maybe silly or just rambling ….looked looked looked for any signs of negative energy…nada…if you have something specific in mind, please send it to me in a private email which might aid me in fixing something……..i too get frustrated with comments from time to time, but your departure is now to my mind clearly about something that has nothing to do with what is being published on Burn….
PETRI UUTELA…
very nice work indeed….please let me see more….and with more text explanation of source etc….many thanks for the link..
cheers, david
Funny thing i personally emailed Petri earlier..im amazed by his “new” decision to turn the camera to himself instead of pointing only to complete strangers, as he mentioned…
and one more PS, for my good friend Patricia…
Anyone can come and go in the comments section anytime..as anton on david (cant remember) mentioned in the past, 90% of the visitors not even reading the comments and thats more than fine..But why announcing resignations etc ? Doesnt this cause more drama? Patricia, supposedly you are against drama, drama free? right?
Well, guess what, you are causing unnecessary drama right now..we are all (me included) been attention seekers at times but seriously cant you see the drama you are causing with your resignation announcements?
Couldnt all those be silently done? yes it could…
so im gonna ask one more time and sorry for the “pressure”..
what is it? what is the “real” reason for you to get hurt? and more important why so pompous? why announce it in public? its not the end of the world is it????
OURPATRICIA, The PATRICIA,my white eagle…
no,no,no…you ain’t leaving me here …
what will i say to BOUBOULINA when I return back from my journey…
I understand that you have so many stuff to explore…
I can feel your pain …when you see BURN …full of negative energy
BUT myPATRICIA…some of us have to go through our transformation…
we are not ALL of us there yet…not yet…
you that your soul is full of kindness and love…
YOU that you are the inspiration for so many of us(the Lost)
YOU,MYPATRICIA…have to stand next to us…
I know that this is a big task
BUT i know you are one of my strongest visionaries here…
We LOVE you ourPATRICIA…I sound selfish…
BUT …please, I would love to see you around…
cause you are a true Soul…
P.S …the windows will be open…(as long as MR.HARVEY says so)…
so my white Eagle…you can come and go…
LOVE you,THANK you and …hope you stay
See,our PATRICIA…
1000 post…for you …
you can NOT go …
I am sending good energy…
P.S where are my academians when I need them…KATIEEE
http://twiturm.com/t2miw
The Black Keys – Black Mud
Tell me if this doesn’t sound like it came out of the middle of a Neil Young song.
YOUNG TOM HYDE…
i read that Neil Burgess piece last week…i think for Neil and his vision of photojournalism, it is indeed dead…however, i think his vision is an antiquated one..i think photographers long ago realized that newspapers and magazines were no longer going to fund in depth assignments…and the memory of past eras always of course is selective memory…rarely did any publication ever do a photographer justice , even in the so called hayday …Gene Smith was banging his fist on the table in the hayday…revolutions regarding copyright infringement were roaring in the hayday…Life Magazine folded in the hayday not because of lack of circulation but because of lack of specified advertising..in the hayday…listen, it has always been that if you really believe in something, you have to make it happen..nobody ever really gave anybody anything….now with many more outlets and various ways of funding ( i do not know why Burgess puts down grants or ngo funding- the story gets done with photog copyright) and more chances of publishing books, and more festivals and the world just simply buzzing and celebrating photography photography photography, why anyone would have their head in the sand now is beyond me….i lived and worked in at least the last part of the “hayday” and the ONLY way a young photographer could get “known” was to be published in Life, Look or Natgeo..there was no other way!! think about that for a minute…one chance in a million your work would be seen internationally….the only thing that has to be worked out now is compensation…that is the only thing…and i am betting that is no more than a couple of years away…max….has to happen…folks are going to be screaming for more content…and it ain’t going to be created without some form of compensation….
cheers, david
DAVID BACHER…
smiling….whenever i read one of your comments, i realize i just do not have enough time to answer properly…but, what a good sport you are, and i really really do want to write to you…however, now it is late for me and i used up all my “comment answering energy” on others who i read before i read you…apologies..quick answer to one of your questions however…no, i was not influenced at all by American newspaper photography….i did work for an American newspaper for two years, learned a lot about a lot of things, but was not influenced by newspaper photography..by the time i went to work for a newspaper my mind was already set…i had already for many years before studied the European masters….and then later Smith, Winogrand, Clark , etc…but not the newspaper photogs of the time…lower level? i would not say that, but certainly different level…and by their own reckoning..whereas the Euro masters always had a sense of their place in history etc , the American newspaper photogs did not have any sense of that at all…even the ONE who does have a place Weegee could not have cared less….good on him…to be continued…
no, please do not confuse authorship with art…at least not necessarily…smiling…good on you
cheers, david
Patricia,
thank you for telling us, you are moving on. This sets our expectations. And when you will return one day, we’ll even be more happier to see you again. We all put energy into this place, and how it is perceived is different by person and situation. I fully understand your step and appreciate you are telling it to us.
Others would move on silently and never return. You, however by announcing show your love to us and the site and by this I am sure, this energy will bring you back once. I hope by then, you are either able to ignore or bring so much energy from inside to overcast all negative energy.
I wish you all luck, safety and love for your journey and I am looking forward to see you again, some day.
big hug
Thomas
Oh, come on Imants…So what is DAH?
“One either becomes the critic or the photographer you cannot be both at once,the audience /critic will decide whether your work has authorship”
I agree with you Panos, steal a little but not copy.
Thanks for the link John Vink. Very interesting. So the first agency or group of photographers to partner up with Google will come out ahead :-)
PATRICIA
I totally agree that taking care of the energy we let into our lives is important – it is a part of taking care of ourselves. There are times in life when we need shaking and waking up and times when all we need is gentleness and love. To be ‘handling’ many different energies takes energy out of us. I also need go give some thought and consideration to the matter of which energies are good for me and which not, so thank you for reminding us – again a little nugget of knowledge you are sharing before you depart.
I am saying ‘au revoir’ as I don’t like to say goodbye. Your voice will be missed in these parts and will be welcome whenever or if ever you choose to return. Of that, I have no doubt.
With love and respect, love and light to a woman of great insight,
Take care and enjoy yourself Patricia (who shares my mother’s name),
Jenny xx
Dearest Patricia,
I don’t understand you… As Panos, why come back just for say I go away ? Sad….
David, Anton,
Can’t wait to order the book burn01 :)))
Big hug, audrey
PATRICIA. So, if I find the rain disagreeable should I stay forever indoors? Or buy an umbrella?
JUKKA ONNELA
I anyone in contact with him? It would be good if he would reply to the comments and thoughts under his essay.
DAVID ALAN HARVEY/DAVID BACHER/PANOS & ALL!
This is an interesting topic. And the question of influences on authorship. From what David Alan Harvey is saying it seems that work can only be ‘recognized’ if it fits in with what has gone before – if it can be ‘recognized’ as evolving out of a specific photographic tradition, out of ‘a school’. This I find very interesting. It appears then that ‘a way of seeing and recording’ will not be recognized as a valid addition within the photographic world unless it fits in with what has come before. Hmmmmmm….. I find this worrying.
“One either becomes the critic or the photographer you cannot be both at once,the audience /critic will decide whether your work has authorship”………….this is in reference to one’s own work not of others
ALL:
“Please please stay young… open minded… and of course on a straight line to your own ends….i would wish nothing else for you….. peace…” David Alan Harvey
Pure inspiration! Thanks! : )
2am here…
Gotta sleep.. Exhausted..
Jenny I’m too tired to go over this again.. Please check that John Lennon (Citroën commercial) I posted earlier..
Gnite yall;)
Panos, go to sleep. Even John Lennon agrees with me.
Patricia, I hope things come good for you, fwiw I appreciated you being around, take care, V x
And authorship, I get a little lost in all the attempts to define it. I tend to think that if you’re passionate about what you’re doing and you do alot of it, then it will come to you, you can’t stop it, it’s not something you actually need to think about….but then again I could be missing the point …?
No Vicky you know it when you see it ………….it becomes interwoven like a ornate tapestry in your work
yes, that’s what i tried to say :)
Patricia:
just a quick note. I fear, from the post, that you do feel hurt in some way and I hope and trust that is not connected to Burn. As you know, long ago, i used to personalize comments here too, get all worked up by the attacks and ad hominems, and vowed not to involve myself when they were personal….and i even vowed once or twice to not write/leave as i needed to, especially during family crisis, and whichever group brings you energy and joy and strength, i wish that to be a source for your life and family and work and that is what matters….
but, as i’ve told others in private and public, what matters is goodness and for me, the support of this crazy dream, including all that has come from that, is what matters, a way to bask away the negativity by producing positivity: the epf fun, the look3 shows, the exhibitions, the magazine (burn), the book (burn01), the imprint or who knows whatever else….
if you need someone to scream at or to chat with, you know i’m here for you….send me a note, whatever….
we’re sending you the biggest hug and joy for whatever direction fills your life with meaning….
i only hope and wish that you do not give countenance to the comments/behavior and see the beauty for the overall vision and the tireless work that david and anton and everyone else has put it…
sending you time and quiet and peace and hope that that remarkable energy and goodness you possess in spades returns when you feel the desire :))
hugs
bob
Wow, look what happens in a matter of a few hours. Patricia is leaving and it also appears this hurts DAH’s feelings. Understandable. It was an odd thing to do, announce you won’t come back. Rejection.
“One either becomes the critic or the photographer you cannot be both at once,the audience /critic will decide whether your work has authorship”
hmmm….nonsense…..:)
i started to about photograhy as a photogapher because much of the criticism out there, to me, was pallid and without the understanding of being a maker of things at heart….so, while i dont consider myself a critic at all, but as a photographer and writer I have written and published criticism…and book1 will contain much of that too….some folk wear 1 hat, some many…..
as for authorship…..to me, that’s a simple issue….
to chime in and the set the darkness ringing…
b
hmmm….nonsense…..:)
Bob you know well that the audience runs the show
JENNY…
you wrote:
“This is an interesting topic. And the question of influences on authorship. From what David Alan Harvey is saying it seems that work can only be ‘recognized’ if it fits in with what has gone before – if it can be ‘recognized’ as evolving out of a specific photographic tradition, out of ‘a school’. This I find very interesting. It appears then that ‘a way of seeing and recording’ will not be recognized as a valid addition within the photographic world unless it fits in with what has come before. Hmmmmmm….. I find this worrying”
nobody that i know ever said nor believes what you wrote above…a misunderstanding of great magnitude..you tend to read things into things , or around things, and somehow miss the point..
i implore you to please read carefully…and write carefully as well….when every other comment here is a “Jenny”, some folks might not take them seriously….better to have a few well placed, well thought out comments….a forum like this should not resemble a skype chat imo…thanks
LEE…
oh dearest Lee, no no my feelings are not hurt by “Patricia leaving”…i do not even really know what that means, do you??? refuse to view Burn in the future? a rather dramatic announcement to boot… that in itself is curious, but is not the first time for her as you may recall …it seems to me that if one wants to stop writing, one simply stops writing…..however, i did want to make sure HER feelings were not hurt by someone or something here on Burn, so wanted to make sure she had a good hug……and Patricia has been for sure a part of the collective spirit of the commentators…but, i was not feeling “rejected” until you mentioned it, but now that you have mentioned it , i am feeling a bit rejected…always good for the soul….smiling….actually and seriously i am sure it is Patricia who IS feeling rejected….she isn’t and she shouldn’t, but alas feelings are personal and there is no way any of us can do anything now but let her work it out….i can promise you a lot of very strange behavior among the photographers on this forum who may not be included in BURN 01..goes with the territory…the farsighted will of course realize that 01 will just maybe lead to 02…but for some the reality of not being chosen is taken personally rather than for the flow of the work and how it fits into a book…and some may confuse their personal relationship with me, with me as an editor…some of my very best friends , who are also terrific photographers, are not in 01….most of the photogs in 01 are folks i have never met…others are friends….but friendship has nothing to do with curating…i learned that lesson long ago …even before Magnum where it is THE mantra…
in any case, you aren’t leaving me are you?? nah, too late for that i think…we wish we could leave , but we cannot, or something like that…right?? by the way, where are you amiga? i just cannot keep up….
cheers, hugs, david
Panos, you might not want to be so quick to put down the Monkees. True, they were a corporate creation, but they did a bit more than simply rattle their chains. Check out the lyrics to “Randy Scouse Git:”
Why don’t you cut your hair?
Why don’t you live up there?
Why don’t you do what I do,
See what I feel when I care?
Why don’t you be like me?
Why don’t you stop and see?
Why don’t you hate who I hate,
Kill who I kill to be free.
Same year as Sergeant Pepper. And check out the movie “Head,” Directed and co-written by Bob Rafaelson and Jack Nicholson, which is far better than anything the Beatles ever did.
I think if I were to make that analogy, I’d cast the Beatles as the corporate group and the Stones as the independent artists. While they were making cute movies and cartoons, the Stones were making Beggars Banquet, Sticky Fingers, Gimme Shelter, and Exile on Main Street. Nothing by the Beatles is holding up anywhere near as well as that. They’re barely holding their own against the Monkees.
“….better to have a few well placed, well thought out comments….a forum like this should not resemble a skype chat”
DAH, I think this is great advice for this forum. I believe it would minimize much of the back and forth sniping at each other and keep people like Patricia from leaving.
It would also clean up the comments and keep BURN on the subject at hand.
Hi everyone,
I’m new here, although I lurk… err…read as much as I can, so of course, I was drawn to this topic. Guess I never commented before because I’m shy and all. First of all, I wanted to thank you all for your words, it’s been a great read!
Now since this discussion was first about storytelling, I suppose it may be a good place to ask for opinions. Here’s the thing : a year ago, I made a story for a weekly newsmag, about a church downtown Johannesburg which welcomes zimbabwean refugees. But we (a journalist and I) also wanted to try another way of storytelling, with audio slideshow, so we recorded some interviews, sounds etc. Eventually, we sold it as well, a few months ago.
Now this could end here, but I know it’s far from perfect and I want to learn and improve my “ability to tell”, whether for future slideshows or essays, so I’d be grateful if you were willing to offer feedback on this piece.
Here’s the english version :
Many thanks in advance, and thanks again for this discussion! Looking forward to lurki…err…reading more from you all (and hopefully not being too shy anymore to get aboard)
cheers,
-juliette
PETE…
yes, agreed…and we will get there by voluntary monitoring i hope…it is ridiculous for us to spend so much time looking and submissions and working carefully with photographers on their long projects behind the scenes and be publishing a quality book , only to have the comments section of Burn look like net graffitti and with no redeeming value….everyone wants to be heard…i get that…that is the point of course of a forum….everyone can be heard….but one should choose words and timing the way one chooses to shoot and edit photographs…
cheers, david
MW…
i gotta see “Head”….thanks for the tip…directed/produced by Raphelson and Nicholson?? amazing…love this kind of stuff….
agreed….the Stones were independent….drove Lennon crazy i think…i am sure he hated being a Beatle…Stones stayed independent and with no money until Steel Wheels album i think..then, Jagger got clean and smart….and ran the Stones like a business…….good timing Mick….
http://www.etrouko.com.au/iman.htm
IMANTS…
cool…yea, you do run the show…
Sorry, posted that Skype chatty thing in reply to Panos before seeing your comment. However you want it to be is fine by me.
Off topic, I think your comment about the difference between a one week get together and a long term community is insightful. Not that 600 women living together would ever get catty, but I know what you mean.
JULIETTE…
welcome…and appropriate timing to say the least….one person leaves, another arrives…
i just had time for a quick look at your website…..and i must go shooting now…but, others here will i am sure jump in for some constructive thoughts…i will return later today and try to give you some thoughts….if i miss you, please remind me…i can get lost in this swirl of activity here…..
in any case, you will find this audience i think helpful to you….several here are particularly astute at multi media…mostly Imants and Michael Webster, but others as well…i will also give you my opinions as soon as i have time….
cheers, david
David,
Thanks for taking the time! (and thanks, too, to anyone who is)
cheers,
-juliette
Hi Juliette. Congratulations on your multimedia piece. Particularly on selling it. Who’s paying money for these things?
Not sure what kind of feedback you’d like? Personally, I find it a serious struggle to incorporate camera movements in still photos. Although you’ve done it much better than most, I still find it a bit distracting. You might consider slowing it down even more and have the movement continue to fadeout or dissolve.
I haven’t done any straight journalism mm pieces, but have mainly been struggling to acquire the skills necessary to present work in any such way I can conceive. Here’s a late draft of a current exercise. You can see (and hear) I have a lot to learn.
Burn is like Hotel California. You can checkout any time you want, but you can never leave …
Nacho, I thought I detected the warm smell of colitis in the air.
KURT…
totally inappropriate comment amigo, but what the hell…hey, are you in norfolk? pop on down to see me? i am working all the time, so might be hard to catch me, but you can give it a try…i do stop for meals (sometimes)….
cheers, david
Nacho..:)))))
Goodmorning, 8am here in the hotel California :)
DAH, I will be back in Norfolk late this week and all of next week. I will try and get in touch with you then. Would enjoy a chat on your porch.
MW, ok, ok…stones vs beatles then, either way u get my point , :)
Good night Panos. 11pm in Manila.
I’m already gone (and I’m feelin’ strong).
Juliette
Welcome and thankyou for the link to your multi-media piece.
Your presentation is a wonderful example good honest, straightforward story telling. The story is an important and up-lifting one. Clearly the lack of slick visuals and production values are not hindering it’s ability to communicate, or it’s saleability.
A couple of suggestions for future projects. First, for a non-African audience, sub-titles or a voice over would help. The accents are difficult to tune into. My other basic suggestion is to avoid mixing square, vertical and horizontal. Best to stick to horizontal unless you are deliberatly playing with format as an artistic statement.
Cheers
Not new, hadn’t seen it yet: Elliot Erwitt, interview:
Juliette, thanks for sharing.. no problem with mixing formats nor understanding the accents (might be easier for non English native speakers) for me, I just don’t like the zooming in, out and around pictures, but that’s my personal peeve and not limited to your piece.. it’s also a tad long..
Ah, the sounds of Burn in the morning. Awoke to the smell of a cane burn here in Maui (that is where I am till August 31–will be in Tahlequah, OK for the pow wow then onto Arkansas for Citizen Cope!!) and immediately wanted to check in with Burn.
I am loving the flow today. DAH, you are so inspiring. I hope to be in Burn 02. Of all the things I learned in working with you in your workshops it is to hear what you say and use it instead of stew (although I have cried a few times!). Your style has influenced me so much in teaching and in hearing what folks say about my photos with a need to learn instead of feeling rejected. Don’t know if you caught my response to your comment about capturing my life that began in NY but I have been working on the project. You might say I am slow but I have excellent timing so have no doubt it will be so in this one area also. XO
Last night’s party was FUN! And the photo booth, though badly executed on my part, was hysterical. I now know what I need for lighting in a studio more than before. However, I love the photos. They show me each of my dear friends in their lives and the love I share between them all. And the strangest thing is the only really stunning portrait was of a friend who at 76 is slipping into memory issues and her and her husband have been really at each other. But this photo showed such love and the light was perfect and the way the leaned into each other and she laid her head against him. Still gives me chills.
The snapshots were “drive bys”, taken with a camera in one hand and a serving tray or drinks or with hands covered in food mess. But I love them too. I fell in love with every single person at my party. The entire process of planning, shopping, preparing, greeting, partying. I am still smiling and my skin is still getting goosebumps at the memories. Seriously. Lovely. This is what life is made for. Living to the fullest. Smiling…
And speaking of odd things: a really good friend of mine who is an excellent photographer took a series of photos of me in Iao Stream Thursday (naked no less) to document the tattoo and it was my first nude work taken by a professional, out in the open in a public river at that. Timing was great there too. People showed up just after I was dressed again. But the ODD thing is he absolutely refused to let me take his photo in the booth. He said he doesn’t let people take photos of him. I called him a hypocrite (we are good enough friends to do that). I just think it is so strange.
Burn…people check in, people check out, nothing ever happens…
AKAKY: I liked that movie too. Greta Garbo was great in it.
AKAKY IRL: I liked Joan Crawford better.
AKAKY: Really? I had you pegged as a Wallace Beery fan.
AKAKY IRL: Crawford had nicer legs.
AKAKY: Yes she did.
DAVID (ALAN HARVEY)
I am going to ignore your comment to me today as I feel it is wrong to single out an individual for something that others do far more frequently. You have now done this twice now for absolutely no reason as far as I can see.
By the way, I have put a question to you re. the cover of Time magazine – twice now. Is it that you don’t wish to answer the question or are you purposefully ignoring it for some other reason? I sincerely would like to hear your opinion on it. I feel it presents an opportunity but, if you do not wish to answer it, I will understand as I will begin to sound like a parrot if I keep repeating it and will then be accused for being a parrot to boot no doubt. You can’t win in this game.
Thank Goodness for the appearance of Juliette is all I say! omg.
Do we get a link to the snaps?
Sorry, LEE, do we get a link to the snaps?
commentators…
“Error 404 – Not Found
Oh no! You’re looking for something which just isn’t here!”
yesyes..
indeed :o)
d
Michael W. wrote,
” Here’s a late draft of a current exercise. You can see (and hear) I have a lot to learn.”
Don’t know if you’re looking for feedback but the primary distraction for me is the mixing
of the traditional music with the ‘beat’-can’t see ow it relates to the piece,finished or not.
Might be marginally effective if, perhaps, you were using the conflicting music styles to
help transisition your piece from traditional content, imagewise, to some modern take on Chinatown.
I will load on picaso or picasa whatever it is soonest. Did upload to Facebook cause it is easy peezy to do.
Lee
Lee, I’ll look forward to having a look. I may not get a chance for a week as we are off to Lasqueti Island for a week off the grid. Just dark and quiet. btw there are three pages of Lee Guthries on Facebook.
cheers
ALL:
just a couple of real quick thoughts as i’m racing home from school….seems like it’s been an eventful weekend, and was away for the weekend, so will try and summarize…
CIVI: thanks so much Civi for the positive energy for my brother…we appreciate that profoundly…:))…
ALL:
on the nature of Leaving Burn….i’ll try to keep this simple and i feel a bit embarrassed that brother Charles (P) as quoted me ;)), but i’ll just iterate what he said…i think it is so important to focus on what is and isn’t that important, something each of us often fails to recongize enough. I will say this, frankly and honestly, that though I consider David a friend and a colleague, I want to also iterate that I owe him a lot. David has always stood beside me and my family and as always supported my photography and my writing. Though my wife and i had a life as photographers prior to Road Trip and Burn and have a very vital photographic life away from Burn, I count Burn as the place, outside of my immediate family, to which I feel the closest, for simple reasons.
David has continually gone out of his way to support as many photographers, from young to old, from pros to amateurs, from wackos to peacemakers, and he has continued to do this without failure or asking for reciprocity. I know this personally. I hope that what I write also has some countenance because i have also worked directly with David and I also have been a nightmare for him too. During a very difficult time in my life, personally, I was a bit of a wacko. Overly dramatic when helping burn as editor-at-large, overly selfish when wanting to help get Lens to burn, overly emotional when not getting attention. I acted like a louse and yet david stuck with me because he sensed that the difficulties in life where causing erratic behavior. David and Anton (and the editor from Italy and AnnaMarie michael c and young tom and lassal and kerry and, forgive me if i forget folk) have literally broken their backs and hearts to make Burn a reality for everyone. On top of this, they’ve busted themeselves to produce Burn01 for US, FOR US, not for themselves, but for photographers and photographer loves.
Now, more than ever, do they need our collective support. I believe and support people who believe and support others and I can only tell you that it doesn’t matter if folk write or not, argue or support, submit or not, but just delving into this place is enough to warrant and necessitate support, because I see this place as a model, not of perfection or beatification, but one of progress and for goodness sake breaking forward. Remember, here, right here, a fund for photography was started, a magazine and a book for photography was created and mentoring, real and virtual mentoring has existed….there are a lot of online magazines and blogs that i love and support, but there are not many online magazines/blogs that have done so much under one roof: funding, mentoring, debating, publishing, family-making, match making (yes, that happened too), etc…..
even i (many remember) have walked away from writing to take a break, but one thing that goes without reservation is my unswerving support of david and now david and anton and the WHOLE crew at BURN….they deserve our support and respect and I am supper excited to see what BURN01 looks like and i see this as another brilliant stepforward in a road of brilliant forward leaps that makes dreaming so deleriously wonderful and sustaining….
COMMENTS:
i see we all learn and should learn to think as we write, something none of us fulfills entirely….i’ve always tried to bring a measure to what I write, since I’m a writer as well as a photographer. As i mentioned, part of my first book is comprised of ‘criticism’ and so long ago, i promised david and anton that i would always try to bring that to the plate here but people do not have to be writers in order to add insight…and also, i do think stupidity also works….i read everything here as a conversation…and we all say stupid things, i write alot of stupid things here and i too get angry, (Pete: i’m not angry any more, but you know how do get me going: call me boring ;)))) )….but, what makes this place still interesting is the way comments foam and curl, create and eradicate….howl and hug…all good….if i dont want to read something, i don’t….if i get upset and dont want to write, i move on….
we’ve had this debate for years at LS too and as Teru, brilliantly, reminded everyone is that the beauty of language and the importance of sustained support is to udnerstand that we’re all in this together, for good or ill, for the moment or the long haul…
as someone who has spent a large part of my life it seems here in the last nearly 4 years and has been far from the model person, i want to say this simply:
THANK YOU DAVID ALAN HAVEY AND ANTON for making this place the place it is….
and i dont need to be published or get an award or get a mentorship or book to make me love this crazy mad place….
you are stuck with me i’m afraid :)))))
focus on what is important…..the rest is ash…
hugs
runjning
bob
Many thanks for your opinions!
Michael : True, not many websites would buy that kind of thing, the one that did couldn’t afford to pay us much because it’s small and basically, it’s the blog of a great quaterly review. But the slideshow doesn’t have the quality of a great production either, so…
I’ve watched Year of the Tiger, I liked it. I think can relate to what you say, this is where I am as well for works that aren’t pure journalism.
Gordon : you’re right, I’ve got a lot to improve concerning my photography skills, and my fear is that it’s crippling the storytelling. I mean, for this kind of multimedia thing, I feel it’s less of a problem to include weaker images than it would be for a magazine, because it can be a complement for a powerful audio that would drive the story. But maybe I’m wrong and should be more drastic in my editing, and this rejoins what you say about mixing vertical, square and horizontal.
As for the subtitles, I’m sorry if it was a bit hard to understand, I’ve spent so much time listening to it that I didn’t feel it was necessary. But I’ll definitely keep that in mind.
Eva : The spanning-zooming thing is a question I’ve really asked myself, I believed it could add some sort of dynamism, but maybe it’s just some beginner’s over-enthousiasm. I still think simplicity works best in most cases though — and is a lot harder to achieve. I’ll keep working on it…
Again, thanks for your words and your time, really.
cheers,
-juliette
Bob.. ehm.. is it OK to be a lover of photography instead of a lover of a photographer? Would help me immensely ;)
(just kidding, you make me smile but mess up my English grammar and syntax and whatnot and I better stop)
Bob, this is definitely time for a group hug…you got me quite emotional with all that :)
BobB. I agree with you 100%.
A BIG THANK YOU DAVID ALAN HAVEY AND ANTON (and all who contribute) for making this venue the amazing place that it is!!!!
Juliette. a couple of quichk items font and vfont placement are a bit non descript and no need for a long introduction you need to get the audience interested straight away with a pertinent image
Gordon, since you asked so nicely. Remember, these are not something I would submit for publication. I have done studio work before and work has been well received. These were like something from an alien who got hold of my camera. Couldn’t convince everyone to let me take their photos and no one stepped up to take shots of others with the set up. So please view with this in mind. There are other essays on there that I am now in the process of combining into one. Feel free to browse. The personal demon essay has been shared back in the day with this group but not so much the others. As always constructive criticism is appreciated and praise is always something I love to hear. But no pressure!! nervous giggle http://picasaweb.google.com/home
Michael, I really wanted to see Year of the Tiger but our download speed disallows that sometimes and yours was one that was chosen to balk at. We have asked the provider to upgrade to higher speeds. The interesting part for me was the title, as I am a Tiger.
Juliette, mm is just beginning to really get my attention. The learning curve is what stops me and I truly appreciate those that jump in. Regarding your piece on the church, I watched it through till the end and enjoyed the story. As someone mentioned earlier the sound quality along with the accents made it difficult to understand sometimes but the overall story came through. Halfway through it dawned on me that people were maybe staying here like a shelter but not for sure. The panning is also distracting for me as well. I agree with the need to jump right in–it took a bit too long to start with the photos etc. There were at least a couple of shots that the heads in front of your camera just didn’t work with the scene you captured below–it was not the focus of the shot but that is where my focus went. Your style of shooting is good and tells a good story. Tighter edit would really make this piece work nicely. Good work. Thanks for being courageous and sharing with us.
Lee,
the picasa link you provided shows the homesite of the owner. i.e. everybody’s own home directory, kind of.
not yours, anyway.
Unfortunately, I don’t know how to link picasa in the right way .. maybe Panos can help?
You know maybe you need the sign on which is eelprod@yahoo.com. Shouldn’t need password for albums cause I made them public.
JENNY..
many thanks for listening…and for being the class act that you are indeed….you will remain and grow in this without sacrificing one iota of freedom by only doing one thing…just keep the 15 feet of space around you at any given time, to be the space of art and of peace…just be the one to make that 15 feet a pleasant place to be at that moment…do not worry about other moments or other places…just absorb this one …frankly, it is how i like to look at Burn…as a small campfire….as an internet version of my 15 feet…no need to be big…just special…..just now deciding if i should go to Perpignan or not…i have no show, no exhibition, no nothing..no reason to be there at all officially…however, i just realized this afternoon that walking into that arena with BURN 01 under my arm , might just become the event of the event…an “off Broadway” hit…should i allow myself this little blast of limelight? or, am i imagining things? being totally egocentric?? it any case, i have enough stuff going here to create a helluva 15 feet in France!! i often shun this sort of event stuff…but this is different..this is not about me, but about the next generation….anyway, i will decide tomorrow.
BOB…
sorry , i missed your comment the first time around…well, ironically perhaps, you can just ditto the above comment to Jenny for yourself…my wish is that all the twists of fate and turning of events and how things fall into place are totally organic at the moment…i know when things are wrong and i know when things are right…now is right….let’s get on with it…
peace, david
JULIETTE
I thoroughly enjoyed your multimedia piece. Thank you so much for sharing it on here! It is a sad story, on-going, and I remember it hitting the news over an extended period. The problems are not exclusive to Zimbabweans as I’m sure you know. Africans from many nations have headed for South Africa in the belief that it offers better opportunities for them than the countries where they are born in (despite the average wage being so low as you point out) and for many, it is true. The opportunities are better which just goes to show how poor are conditions in the countries they come from. The Congolese in Cape Town are refugees from a war that has killed all but 5 million people in total as you know…
I agree with Gordon that your piece is a wonderful example of good, honest story-telling and with Eva that the zooming in and out is distracting. I also think Michael’s idea of fading in and out would help and I forget who said it but I agree on the changing of format to be consistent throughout. I had absolutely no problem with the sound track and with the understanding the accents. In fact, I just love those accents but then Zimbabwe was one of my favourite countries in the world – I have not seen been there in the past 10 years or so, so….
Personally, I think you have a lot of scope for improvement using exactly what you have right here and am pretty excited to see the results. The photographs vary hugely in their impact throughout the piece and I think a strong edit would help to make the piece much tighter and immensely more powerful. I noticed a number of strong images leaping out at me around the 5.0 area and there were others that I felt were lost among the throng. I feel certain that all of your best shots will be stronger if you SERIOUSLY edit the sequence right down. I would go for around half the number that you currently have and this would help slow all the imagery down because as it currently stands, I feel it is all moving too fast and is a little disjointed due to the staccato transitions you have. Fading in and out would add interest – especially if you allow some overlay time – and the result will be a far smoother ride.
These are just a few initial thoughts on first viewing – if you think I can be of any further help please let me know. I wish you the best of luck because I am struggling with even putting together a simple slideshow! Thanks again for adding your piece as a link on here. It made my day to see it!
Jenny
DAVID (ALAN HARVEY)
I have been contemplating going to Perpignan myself. I need to check the dates. It is wonderful to see the work, the exhibitions, the projections, and all the people but I am more than slightly concerned about the number of people I may have upset who attend it over the years! It would be nice to see you again and I know that Kent is going and there are a few people I’d like to meet – Gina and others. As far as YOU are concerned, I feel sure that people would LOVE to see you and Burn 01! I once launched a small news title so I have an inkling of how you are feeling. Wonderful! : )
PS If you do decide to go, please let me know and I will also go to see you and Burn 01.
PPS Thank you for thinking of how I can feel more at peace on here – the analogy of the fire was really appreciated. Sometimes I feel physical pain when I read the comments where people are fighting. I am very sensitive. Sometimes my heart aches as well.
Multimedia is very difficult for one person to produce. First, you have to have exceptional still photos. Without those, the rest of the exercise is pointless. I realize that out in the regular world, slick multimedia can be used to cover for less than exceptional still photography, but that’s not going to fly here. Then, you have to be able to produce some combination of video, motion graphics, audio and possibly music, all of which are highly skilled professions in themselves. And all that is secondary. If the video, motion graphics, audio and music don’t serve to enhance the presentation of the still photographs, again, those arts are pointless.
Regarding Year of the Tiger, I’m not being self-deprecating when I describe it as an exercise. Those who know me even a little are aware that I do not discuss publicly, much less show, projects I intend for publication. No, Year of the Tiger is practice; a process of working out problems. For example, I am almost 100 percent with Eva in my disdain for panning and zooming. Yet not 100 percent. I think it can work in certain, very limited situations. So I try. The audio/music in this piece is making the best of what I have, which isn’t much. One of the biggest challenges I’ve found is remembering to get audio and video when I’m on a photo shoot. I’m getting better at it, but the chinatown thing was an early effort and I didn’t get very much. The music I composed was originally to cover the poor quality of the audio. I’d much rather not have to do it, but the reality of the situation is that it’s a skill that comes in handy for multimedia, particularly if you don’t want to pay royalties. I learned a lot composing that little trifle. And in this case it does support the story, which goes to some length to explore the tension between tradition and modernity in the chinese community. So combining modern electronic music with the traditional chinese is thematically consistent. I’m not concerned with the quality of the idea, but with the quality of the execution. The danger of video in a still photograph piece is that it can be overwhelming. From what I’ve seen, atmospheric kind of video works best. Otherwise it becomes more of a video than a multimedia piece.
As far as the presentation of the still photographs, I like the freedom of pacing you get with multimedia. And the options you get working with verticals. I’ve always been a big fan of the triptych. But whatever you like, it gives you total control.
Sorry if I’m going on too much, but many have expressed an interest. And Juliette’s makes two projects that have come to our attention in the past week that were published by small literary magazines. That’s a market I had not even considered. Hopefully, they’ll all start battling for content, eh.
Lee, just running out the door to catch the last ferry to Lasqueti. Won’t get a chance to look for a week, but will when I get back.
cheers
Roger Black may be working out a way for us to find a new
way for image content to have relevance. http://www.aphotoeditor.com/2010/08/09/treesaver-porting-magazines-online-just-got-easier/
Lot’s to consider…
It’s working ya’ll, so long as the big dogs are
lookin’ out for us there IS hope. Damn we’re lucky
to be living at such a time.
Think, Think, Think!!! It’s time for a virtual tour in real time.
David (ah) :))))
;))))))))))))….
ditto everything u and i have always talked about :))))
got your back and anton’s back, ’cause ya’ll have always watched mine…
besides, family is always worth fighting for and never giving up hope on…..what else is there? :))
hello from the 2 geniuses in the family :))
running
b
John Vink, thank you for the great link and DAH for the great thoughts.
Nicely expressed Bob. Your a teacher aren’t you? if not, your real talent is missing.
DAH… Wish I had your intuition.
“My wish is that all the twists of fate and turning of events and how things fall into place are totally organic at the moment…i know when things are wrong and i know when things are right… NOW is right….let’s get on with it…” David Alan Harvey
Amen! : )
DAVID BACHER…
are you still around? i owe you some answers, but i have forgotten all the questions…you tend to ask multiple questions that require an in depth answer…no problem…i will always take the time to do my best, when i do have the time…a bit scarce right now since i am in the middle of a magazine shoot, but my coffee time is usually my Burn time..
i do remember that you were asking about Mike Brown and his potential value to Magnum…surely Mike is on the short list for the future…as is Matt Eich and Victor Cobo and Emily Schiffer (she won the Inge Morath award last year)..but , as i have said to you before, Magnum is not a “reward”, it is an active photographer’s cooperative, an agency, photographer representation…because Magnum is now 60+ years and given our history, and our zeal for protecting photographer rights for all , our grants etc, we have taken on in the public view a bit more of institutional presence than simply a photo agency….
still, we do not want to duplicate talent…if we have Alex Webb for example, we are unlikely to take on an Alex Webb “look alike”…..we want original thinking, not someone trying to be like someone else which is the tendency among Magnum seekers, contest win seekers, etc etc…must be human nature to want to “duplicate” that which is successful….does not work that way at Magnum…we woulda died long ago if we used that formula…
so let’s pretend we are looking at Eich, Schiffer, Brown, Cobo in the photojournalism category….we will not take them all…we might take none of them….but what we will think about, and over a long time, is which one will go the distance..which one will continue to grow over the years and which one is really “herself/himself” and not trying to be someone else…again this is hypothetical, but i think you get the drift of it…there a many “one hit wonders” out there…photographers who are “hot” for a relatively short time…these we try to avoid…..this is all very tricky and all very subjective…but the collective wisdom is a totally fascinating thing to observe…..hence our 60+ years…..
i know you had another question…let me know….something about authorship i think..maybe this answers even that one….all tied together…
cheers, david
Happy Tuesday,
I was in New York last week, had a great lunch with Burnians Erica and Preston (great time!). I dropped off portfolios and visited with some photo editors. One of the editors said something to me that I found very interesting. He said that “f/8 and be there” just doesn’t cut it anymore. I’ve heard that mantra many times, and always as a virtue. I’m curious to hear what you guys think of that.
JULIETTE…
i have not seen the piece..can you pop in the link again please?? i have no idea where it is…thanks
KATIA…
now this work is so so different from your street kids work…however, very well crafted…i do not know where you go from here…where do you take this? or is this just a “one off”? maybe i missed your whole explanation…
BRIAN FRANK…
“f/8 and be there” was always a silly thing to say….an exaggeration..an over-simplification….probably intended to inspire some to get out of their chair, but hardly a working philosophy…however, i am curious what your editor did think “cuts it” these days…i am assuming that he/she feels today’s photographer must be more than a photographer….this actually was always true for the truly enlightened imo…even when some claimed “f/8 and be there” was all it took…..sorry we missed in new york…if you are back later in the fall, i will be around….
cheers, david
http://www.time.com/time/photogallery/0,29307,2009451_2173866,00.html
DAH –
He was trying to portray the importance of dramatic images, and getting creative to get them. Things like using a longer lens with shallow DOF, putting down the wide angle lenses, getting different angles, etc. All of this was in the context of what they are looking for in images.
Panos –
That first image is very telling. New, modern rail zipping through rubble and dirt.
I’m going to repeat myself, but again, I’m really grateful for your comments and advice on how to improve this piece — and improve myself.
Imants
Yes, that makes sense, the beginning is slow, it probably reflects how I enter a story I’m making. This goes along the lines of tighter editing, so I’ll definitely put a lot of thoughts and tries into that aspect.
Lee
I’m realizing now that some parts are edited in a confusing way and maybe some information don’t really come across, like despite the poor conditions and some tensions, there is a sense of community. Not all of them live there, especially some women who come only to give birth, because they don’t want to go to local clinics, since they don’t have papers. Some don’t have anywhere else to go, some are afraid to leave and become more isolated, some find long lost friends after months there…
But I’ll be working now on a much tighter and clearer edit, and without the distracting pans and zoom-ins, that’s for sure! MM presentations offer so many possibilities that it can be hard to keep the most important in focus and carry the story with both the right pace and a point of view.
Jenny
You’re absolutely right, there weren’t only zimbabweans there, I remember strikingly a congolese woman who told us her heartbreaking story — unfortunately not entirely recorded. We focused on zimbabweans because they were by far the most represented there, even though we didn’t specifically look for them. I wish I could go back there, because the situation is evolving, but for now, I guess I’ll focus on this particular side.
Thank you for the detailed advice, it answers a lot of the questions I tried to deal with on my own — probably not in the best way, but eh, that’s a part of learning, and I’m definitely glad to have found valuable help.
I’m going to work on it again and I’d love to share the results… Good luck to you, too, for your slideshow!
Thanks again for the warm welcome and kind encouragements!
cheers,
-juliette
David
Here’s the link :
Thanks for taking the time!
After nearly four years following Road Trips and Burn, I just want everyone to know that I am not leaving Burn at this time. I don’t make this decision lightly, but I think it is better for me to not leave than to stay and face the thousand natural shocks that flash drives are air two. I could say that I am not leaving Burn so I can spend more time with my family, but if you’ve been reading Road Trips and Burn for the past how many years it’s been, you know that I don’t have much use for my family and so spending any more time with them than is absolutely necessary isn’t going to happen. And then there’s my need to expand my horizons as a photographer, a statement that’ll have AKAKY IRL telling fat jokes at my expense any second now.
AKAKY IRL: That was not a nice thing to say, guy. I wasn’t even thinking that if you expanded your horizons as a photographer, a writer, or as a amateur scissors sharpener you’re gonna pop the buttons off your damn pants. The thought hadn’t even occurred to me.
AKAKY: That’s might big of you, dude. In any case, I want to expand my horizons as a photographer…what?
AKAKY IRL: Okay, now I’m thinking about fat jokes.
AKAKY: Figures. As I was saying, I want to explore the possibilities of my photography—try something with that, smartass—and
AKAKY IRL: Why?
AKAKY: What?
AKAKY IRL: Why do you want to explore the possibilities of your photography? You suck. Are you sure you want to see just how lousy you can be?
AKAKY: If beats getting poked in the eye with a sharp stick.
AKAKY IRL: Most things do, guy, so that’s no excuse. If you’re not going to get any better at taking pictures, then what’s the point of not leaving Burn? There seems to be a bit of a non sequitur in action here, if you follow my drift.
AKAKY: In any case, for all of these reasons and more, I will not be leaving Burn at this time, nor will I stop reading the comments, as they can be fairly entertaining at times, and I will not stop making comments on the comments.
AKAKY IRL: Why don’t you comment on the pictures?
AKAKY: Because I have no clue what I’m talking about and if you can’t say something nice, as the great Gilbert Grosvenor once said, say nothing. Which is why I’m not gonna let you comment on the pictures, either.
AKAKY IRL: I’m not really a picture person, anyway.
AKAKY: Then this works out for everyone.
AKAKY IRL: Looks like it.
AKAKY: In conclusion—
AKAKY IRL: Are we done here?
AKAKY: Will you please stop interrupting me? It’s rude.
AKAKY IRL: Sorry.
AKAKY: In conclusion, I just want to say thank you to everyone here for their time and patience in putting up with me and with you know who and
AKAKY IRL: Who is you know who? If you mean me, then just say me. Rude, my ass. Rude is talking about someone like they’re not really there. Did you people see that? The absolute nerve of that bastard! You know who! No, I don’t know who; are we talking about Admiral Yamamoto, perchance?
AKAKY: Perchance?
AKAKY IRL: I heard it in a movie once, guy, gimme a break.
Akaky we love you…
Akaky IRL: despite all the bad things I heard about you,..well…er..we love you too…
(who is “we”?…damn I think I’m confusing myself once again)
Speaking of “love”…
I feel kinda “negative” today..
Hmmm, anyone wanna “fight”???
;)
Panos-
Following Akaky’s announcement:
I want to ANNOUNCE to ALL:
After all this talk lately about resignations etc..
I’m announcing that I’m not gonna QUIT burn today..
But I will quit Burn if I suspect that I’m not in the list
for the next Magnum nominee…
I’m tired of all the negativity of not being in Magnum yet
and therefore sometimes my body aches and I do feel
physical pain
Brian ;)
BRIAN FRANK…
hmmmm, well using a longer lens for shallow depth of field hardly sounds like a revelation..putting down wide lenses as a blanket statement also sounds just as silly as “f/8 and be there”…anytime any editor is talking to you about which lenses to use, you can be sure is a danger sign…well Brian i do not know exactly what you are trying to do..but, just remember, you have to choose your clients just as carefully as they choose photographers…otherwise you will be more confused than ever…your name on your pictures cannot be erased….and if you lose your voice as a young photographer, you can never get it back…be careful please…
cheers, david
I also not gonna attend at the junk annual festival down at Venice Beach
( 4000 positive junkies exchange their experiences down at the waterfront)..
Reason?: their vibe is to positive for my taste;)
“After nearly four years following Road Trips and Burn, I just want everyone to know that I am not leaving Burn at this time.”
Well, then, you won’t be missed :>))
Panos wrote, “Hmmm, anyone wanna “fight”???”
http://www.googlefight.com/ Knock yourself out, buddy !
JULIETTE…
i just have a few minutes..so quickie review
please know this is probably blunt for you…but, it is how i critique…always from the perspective of comparing with the best i have seen…..impossible to critique from some midpoint perspective…so please take in good spirit….the intent is to be constructive….
first off, it is never a good idea to have any show that long unless it is the show to end all shows…any editor or serious viewer who sees a 9 minute show coming up is going to cringe…you would have lost me on that one alone , except i was specifically going in to critique…the only way around that one is to make sure your first 30 seconds is so compelling that the viewer wants to stay…otherwise you will lose most astute viewers right away…4-5 minutes for this subject would have been about right imo..
this falls in with what Imants says and Lee …tighter editing is the understatement here…you have way way too many pictures….mostly , you have too many mediocre pictures….you are lacking some basic shooting skills i think…i imagine you are a photographer without too much experience..this is of course just fine, but in the future you really have to think about basic visualization of subjects…you are making the very common mistake of seeing something which is inherently interesting and just taking a picture , as if that was enough….it isn’t…you must add some style, some look, some interest from YOU, not just snap away at what is “important”…you must make it visual..this does not happen all by itself…your basic story is good, but the voices are coming from people where you simply made a “head shot”…nothing special in these portraits….
this is a good subject…you obviously care about it and are involved…i think the best thing you can do is to really look at mm shows which are really strong…from photographers you respect….they are out there….you do not want to copy, but you do want to learn i am sure….see Brian Storm, Media Storm, VII multimedia, Magnum in Motion, and many others…
if we were in the same room or could skype, all of this would come together better….we can do this in the future if you choose….
sorry for the fast analysis…there is more , but gotta run…back soonest..
cheers, david
“if you can’t say something nice, say nothing at all”
This is, with different wordings, a recurring sentence here.. is this really the way to go? Doesn’t this lead to superficiality? Or do I miss the point of the meaning?
DAH –
Well said. I think I have a point of view in my images, and don’t plan on making changes on a whim. Migration and evolution, fine. A sharp turn, not a chance.
The meetings were very, very positive. I asked him what I could do to improve, and was given some good advice. The comments mentioned here were almost non sequitors. I’m taking it as a blanket advice to think about other ways of taking shots. Like you said, hardly revelation, but a good thing for me to keep in mind.
An artist makes an amazing green-colored piece of art.
Let’s say there’s a number of people (who don’t like the color green) looking at it.
Some people will not like the green.
Some people will like the art.
Anton, put like this all the ‘not nice’ things not said fall into the personal taste – like/dislake category, if your art-in-green is meant as an answer to my question. Isn’t that a bit over-simplyfying?
hey eva!
No, i mean exactly the opposite… I mean not only do you have to speak your opinion, also if you do not like it, but, more importantly, the reasoning behind your opinion should be told.
Let’s say the artist makes a crappy piece of art.
some people won’t like the green.
some people won’t like the art.
(i know it’s over simplified… but that’s the beauty of it :-)
hugs,
a
so I’m actually agreeing with you… “if you can’t say something nice, say nothing at all” you’re right it’s not a good way to go i would guess….
the reasoning behind the opinion gives validity to the opinion itself, be it a “pro” or a “contra”, or anywhere in between
EVA..ANTON..
be nice to each other…but be honest with each other…the best way to be nice to someone….
Ah-ha, ok, get it, Anton, and agree, the ‘why’.. and going to write “simplifying” a hundred times now… ;)
And yes, David, honesty.. agree with that too.. night..
Irrelevant :”being here, doesn’t mean you belong”
Street poster sign advertisement from the new movie HELLCATS ..
I have no idea what kind of movie is this but slogan is catchy ;)
Yes, words to live by.
Some people will not like the green.
Some people will not like the art.
Everyone will want the free sandwiches
Mike Parr’s “The Emetics [Primary Vomit] I am Sick of Art [Red, Yellow and Blue] (1977)” documents photographically the artist vomiting primary colour dyes
Eva…
The “if you can’t say something nice, say nothing at all” is a good practice for family gatherings, when the objective is to avoid friction at all costs…
When you talk with people about the things that matter the most to you though, it is best to say what’s in your mind whether positive or negative… some will love you, some will hate you and some will be indifferent… but at least they’ll love or hate who you really are and not the person you pretend to be by tiptoeing around your real feelings…
Anton…
A major problem is that not all of us can verbalize in a concise and coherent way the (most important) *why* we like or dislike something…
That is the reason I don’t usually post under the essays, even though I do read what everyone else has to say.
After all, it’s easier to assess if something is green, than if something is amazing art…
:)))
‘night from here too…
THODORIS…
re: Burn 01 distribution…we have not totally figured this out…but i think we will distribute mostly from Italy, with some copies coming to New York as well..there are customs and tax issues….
Hi David, if it’s not too much trouble, please reserve me a New York copy.
MW…
will do…and reading carefully your proposal…thanks
AKAKY…
free sandwiches? i need ’em….i am so far over budget on my current assignment, that i need to save money (green) somehow…
DAVE – Staying at home is allways more expensive than being on the road :)
Have you had a chance to have a look at the submission I sent in mate?
venice beach today:
http://picasaweb.google.com/innerspacecowpanos/Desktop03?authkey=Gv1sRgCLrbq_q_u9jqqAE#slideshow/5503974722041541778
Staying at home is allways more expensive than being on the road :)
————————————-
let me rephrase:
“having a home is always more expensive than being on the road” :)
Can’t spend too much here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vmgA1u-uM0A&feature=related
…….thiugh thereare no gum trees to boot!
IMANTS
i grew up with that song mate…. the memories!!!
a
Imants; The old Burkes Backyard them tune eh? :-)
I feel a little Ill!
Makes one proud to be an Australian………sorta dunno about that.
I finally got a copy 5 of the etrouko book series five that have been completed this year…… no. six is in the computer itching to get out.
I have to figure what I will do with them probably a limited edition run of well not too many. A show in Melbourne next year with limited amount of prints.
__________________________________
the books ………… http://www.etrouko.com.au/im.htm
__________________________________
Encyclopaedia Britannica consists of 32 volumes, a long way to go for me
Maybe a Trent Parke-like 1000 limited edition?
SAUSAGES; AN ARTISTIC METAPHOR
THE GERMAN: Clearly it is only the germanic wurst that contains the correct blend of pure arian ingredients. The decadent unter-sausages of europe are just bladders of offal, and can not be classed as food.
THE FRENCHIST: All you stupid foreign peoples with your bland little casings of muck. how can you call this a sausage? The Saucisson is the only true sausage. vive le france!
THE AGEING LIBERAL: I think one needs to learn to appreciate The sausage in all its myriad forms. Only then can we make informed choices about colour, texture and taste, and appreciate the variety of sausages in context to their particular region.
THE NEW AGE SPIRITUALLY BALANCED PERSON: I think its wonderful that people all over the world are joined by the making of sausages. What better way of uniting us all than by the shared joy of creating such diversity from the same basic ingredients. They are all unique and wonderful and equally valid and……..
THE AUSTRALIAN: Whatever mate!..gotta any beer?
THE GOURMAND: PAH! What do you know of sausages? it is not even worth talking to you about them. It is my belief that most of you have severely underdeveloped taste and could no more talk about sausages than could a mute child.
THE UN-RECONSTRUCTED ENGLISH YOB: SAUSAGES!! SAUSAGGGESSSS! SAU-SA-GESS!! OI!! YOU SPILL MY PINT?
THE SELF PROCLAIMED ARTIST: I like to think of sausages as the parts of myself that I wish to gain access to. Arranged by colour and texture on a sheet of venetian glass and left to rot in my studio, they take on new hues and smells, and become transformed by the elements into ………(continues for another hundred pages)
THE VEGETARIAN: How could you? I mean, its disgusting. Think of the suffering. Why cant you all see how wrong sausages are? I cry for them every day.
THE END.
By the way Glenn congrats on your show and latest work
http://www.darwinfestival.org.au/Visual-Art/shrine.html
Ross I will go a lot less than that, 100 would be max by a long way
Thodoris, if asked for an opinion I’ll give it, love me or hate me that’s not a problem, since I must respond to my own conscience and that’s what counts, so honesty will win over niceness, but, as David AH puts it, to be honest IS ‘nice’, even if not everybody might agree with that.. the problem (if we can call it problem, question is probably more appropriate) is: if not directly asked for it, do I hold back my opinion? I often wonder, looking at the essays and reading comments, should I or should I not..
Imants, thanks bunches, now I gotta find a way to kick that kangaroo out of my head!
Yes DAH, still around. Like you, I’m also very busy and will take time to reflect upon what you wrote. I’m in the middle of post-treating 8 weddings that are backlogged from July.
My questions were not at all focused at what are the criteria for becoming a Magnum photographer. That does not really interest me in fact. The discussion was about 1.’authorship’ and 2. photographers who follow a photographic tradition. And you say it’s all tied together? Is it really?
It’s funny and intriguing that you bring up Alex Webb as an example, knowing very well that I did the workshop with he and Rebecca in Nyc a couple years ago. So I will take that to mean that you are implying that I’m trying to copy Alex. I guess I have to defend myself and others here. I chose to do the workshop with Alex because I have admired his work for years, first seeing it in NG and then later discovering his more complex personal imagery. Like any person who does a workshop with a well known photographer like yourself, he or she should like and respect that photographer’s work. I also believe that there is probably some resemblance between mentor and student. After all, yes I agree with you that a photographer should be him or herself, but is this truly the case if we start uncovering things a bit? As you mentioned young photographers names that have been previously published on Burn and are supposedly in the running for Magnum, I will simply cite a short list of Magnum photogs whose work, well, has a clear common thread…this is not a bad thing, but it is there. You, Alex, Manos, Towell (his older work), Gruyaert, Erwitt (in some ways), Bendiksen, Pinkhassov, and let’s not forgot HCB. After we could take a new young Magnum photog like Sobol. I know he is the one guy in the agency who works in that b/w high contrast style. But if one has spent some time looking at Scandanavian photography we immediately see a resemblance to Anders Petersen and many others. Again, who is the author here?
Back to Alex…I did not take the workshop with him to accumulate “brownie points”, but rather to have my photos critiqued by the person who I feel is by far the best ‘street photographer’ of all time. We all know, and Alex admits it himself that he follows in a tradition of HCB, Frank and others. He took what the likes of HCB started and has pushed it to another level, a much higher level. I cannot think of another photographer who works in such a complex and poetic way and has continually improved. Thus, when I’m shooting in the streets I’m not thinking “Gotta be like Alex, gotta make it to Magnum or some other photo agency/”institution”, but rather, “layers”, “mood”, “light”, “texture”, “geometry”, “composition”, “irony”, “humor”…the list continues. So if my work resembles, or were to ever resemble Alex’s work, yours or any of the others mentioned above it is for this reason not because I’m trying to copy, but because I want to perhaps work in a photographic tradition that is very very strong and unfortunately is not extremely well respected these days (as compared to other forms of contemporary “art”(in thick quotes) photo let’s say.) Working in this tradition requires self discipline and creating something “better” than Alex is not an easy task. Is it a good idea to step back in order to create something “personal” or try to build on something great. I think there is a lot of the former going on these days, compared to the latter.
One small side note… Has there been anything in the realm of music that has come close to Mozart. Many have tried things, but none have succeeded. So if there were a music agency would Mozart be the founder and his successors “authors” or “copiers”. Is Gershwin a copier? I went to see Cold Play live last summer and what did they blast just before appearing on stage, The Blue Danube Waltz by Johann Strauss :-) Did Cold Play copy U2. If another Mozart were to come around I’d be a really happy camper, but I don’t see it happening any time soon :-) And no, I’m not using Mozart as an example because I’m half Austrian :-)
best,
David
David (Bacher), if I might, just read what you wrote and this (“creating something “better””) stoped me and made me think: not ‘better’, but rather ‘different’, isn’t that the point?
david b and eva.
I think it’s about being yourself, not trying to be either better or different.
However much I can admire someone’s work or have that pang of feeling you’ll never be as skilled, I don’t want to have taken anyone’s picture, I want it to be mine, my view, my insides out, nothing less.
vicky – exactly. This is what I understand as authorship. I am the author of my pictures.
I guess this is the way we should perceive jukka’s pictures. (Just to close the loop here :)
Imants…
Your books look very cool… what kind of printing/binding do you use?
While working on the sequencing and layout for my book, I’ve being using the method I mentioned a year ago (http://www.tzalavras.com/nicosia_booklet_2009) for placing a 12 page layout on a single A4 sheet of paper… by binding together 9 such booklets I create 108 page miniatures of my book, which are helping me visualize what the actual book will look and feel like…
After doing this a few times in the last couple months, I’m now at the point where I can produce a clothbound hardback with a dust jacket!! And it looks really cool…
So, I’m now starting to think that with the proper materials and by learning a bit more about binding, it might just be doable to produce in-house *very* small editions of books that will not cost that much (except for the time it takes to produce them, and after having spent some money on the initial testing of materials and techniques) and will be able to stand comfortably next to any high-end photo-book out there…
VICKY
You are right. We can only be ourselves. There must be NO ‘trying’! I sometimes wish I was not so confident that I am always right. I would love to see more of your pinhole work! I looked on your website and loved it!
Vicky, being ourselves goes hand in hand with being different, as we all are different I guess, to be able to express this (and not only in photography), that’s where the cat lies. Thodoris wrote about (not) being able to express the ‘why’, I think it’s all tied together, to know it and to be able to ‘say’ it.
Thodoris, thanks for posting that link again, I have the template saved on the computre, but did not save the link (or can’t remember where). I think it’s a bit of handywork, but it can be done, here in teh city we still have a couple of stores who bind books by hand. With your little booklet, one thing, if you use it for bigger: tying the knots might be important, instead of just cutting off the filaments..
Eva-
Perhaps better and different? Perhaps just better? Perhaps just different?
Jenny-
Yes of course, you’re right. Be yourself. I’m not saying the contrary.
Vicky-
I disagree. You can and should admire other photographer’s work. Your work will never exactly mirror their’s. We live in a world where it is impossible to completely free your mind of what has already happened. The fact that it is you taking the picture and not someone else automatically puts your signature on it. Sure, your work may look more like another photographer’s photos compared to someone else, but it’s still your unique style. Again….please think about what I wrote about a photographic tradition.
Thomas-
Unclosed loops are good, or :-)
Ok, smiling here, I wonder if we’re not saying all the same thing, just using different sentences and words..
8 days
6 flights
2 countries
3000+ km to drive
3 weeks till deadline
photographing tourists and writing the n.e. france section for a guide book.
see you on the other side
:o)
gwan glenn..
and
congratulations imants..
actually imants – is there anywhere to see the full contents of the book? looking forward to that ..
apologies if it’s been posted or is obvious through your link..
wanna see
wanna see
DAVID BACHER
sorry, i thought you were asking about Mike Brown !!
so i keyed my answer around him and his generation…besides, as i said, i was writing about current photographers who i see as being authors, but being hypothetical about their relationship to Magnum .. .i was not even thinking about you or any relationship with Alex or imagine you had any interest in Magnum beyond being curious about Mike…didn’t know you had any relationship with Alex….i was just trying to answer your question about Mike…used the Webb example just randomly because he is an easy stylist to think about, and how in the world would i know or factor into my thinking that you might have taken a workshop with him??
ahh yes ,ok apologies, now i vaguely remember that you were a part of that Magnum series in new york…since i was not really a part of that except as a brief presenter, as you will remember, i am sure you can forgive me for not remembering that you were a student of Alex..yes there? you could have been a Gilden student…wasn’t that a mixed group? a bit confused on this one…and i surely cannot be held accountable for remembering every workshop student in every Magnum photographers class !! anyway, it sure as hell did not come to my mind when answering your question about Mike….i must have touched a sensitive chord..sorry…
in any case, i still do not know exactly what your question was/is about authorship…i will be pleased to do my best to answer…it seems you have thought everything over carefully and have your own vision and clear philosophy…so, that being the case, i would say just get going…do your thing..
just consider: the one thing neither HCB or Alex has is any emotional involvement….both distant from their subjects…brilliantly distant, but neither do you feel ever talked to anyone they ever photographed (besides Matisse)…..neither inside homes or hanging at the bar or actually feeling the sweat of another human up against them……….so in your analysis of things, this might be something for you to evaluate as well…or, keep your fly on the wall distance if that is philosophically closer to you…however, you probably/maybe have the ability to go much closer if you choose… right now your street work is all shapes and light…not much emotion either given or implied….your work cries out for a personality to be attached…even an analytical personality…..from looking at your work i have no idea what you are thinking or feeling about anything…that is what authorship is about, or at least part of it…..anyway, give it some thought…and look closely at Vic Cobo and Emily Schiffer…opposites from each other, but anybody can see who they ARE….
now, let me know if i can still answer a question…i think we both got lost in translation….
cheers, david
I got these printed so I could assess the results each book is about 80 pages, I am not too impressed with the binding, then most books these days are pretty crappy unless they are professionally bound by people that love books.
I am in the process of check out a few printing places here in Australia ( not sure what David is up to as he has a copy of etrouko I). May have to skype him soon I guess.
One of the ideas is to get someone to print and then there are a few binders I sorta know (knowing doesn’t change the price) that can do a fantastic job. In that case there would only be about 10 of each, two I keep so there would only be 8 in circulation. The paper would be a cotton rag type with a slight woven texture etc. So via this process you can get the idea that they will not be cheap to produce nor buy so I have to get my sums right and only lose a bit of money.
If there was a demand for books as the retail types I will have to think…….. hmnn see about all that.
I have done a book binding course and found out that one offs are not bad to do as one ………..to get 5 times 10 copies exactly the same is a very different game. This is where the top bookbinders/printers come into the game and one should use their expertise.
David Bowen there are 5 different books in total
GLENN…
apologies…no, i have not…i have been shooting outer banks 100% and either working or thinking about Burn 01 100% and just the daily work of Burn 100% and my family renunion 100%…which leaves Glenn Campbell totally neglected…but mate, only for the moment!! let me get another coffee, and i will get right to it….
JOHN GLADDY…
you are getting rather brilliant in your posts recently…so whatever it is that you are smoking, please share…..
THODORIS …IMANTS
yes, the hand made limited edition books are what i am most interested in as well…limited production books too…with the net serving as the mass media, hard copy will reign in the form of these priceless treasures…i just do not know how anyone can worry too much about what used to be in the world of magazines and mass media with regard to fine photography or fine presentations…you both are on it…good….
if we use the distribution possibilities of Burn combined with the finest production we can find, then we really might be on to something….this is the exploration for all of us now , imo….i want to skype with both of you soonest….perhaps later this week??
cheers, david
David B, I admire many artist’s work, how could I not, I just meant that I don’t want to make their pictures however much I love them.
And photographic tradition isn’t something I feel competent to talk about but I’m learning as I go :)
Eva, agreed, different words, same sentiments.
Jenny, thanks, you can see more on Flickr, I treat it as a notebook not a portfolio so there’s a jumble there :)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/janeway/sets/72157604335417377/
( i think much is not accessible without having an account though).
Thodoris, I love how you made your book, sewing machine and all.
David Bacher,
sometimes unclosed loops are good – however, are they still loops then? (We are getting philospophic *g*)
David Bacher, David AH – could be my mistake. This part of the discussion lasts quite long now… Sorry for confusion.
PANOS…
there have always been Burn t-shirts, hoodies, etc on Cafepress, but now we will have two new ones…I Am Not Leaving Burn…I Am Leaving Burn…Burn bags of course are being considered….just trying to design one…
in all seriousness, i like your new project idea….let me know when we can go public….
Eva…
I’ve made a couple of minor improvements to those templates since last year… if you ever decide to use them, let me know and I’ll send you the new ones…
And yes, cutting off the filaments is one of the problems I need to fix… of course there are other ways to sew the sections of the book than the one I’m currently using (out of convenience)… I’m just using the materials and equipment I already have for creating previews for now…
GLENN..
if you are talking about Shrine, it seems to have been deleted..not by us…by you? confused
Imants…
Last summer I met with a few printers and a few binders, trying to find out what my options were regarding quality (materials and craftsmanship) and price…
The best binder I found is producing handmade books in the same way her father and grandfather did, but only in very small quantities and at a very high cost… which wasn’t what I was looking for, but she spent an hour telling me what I should look for and what I should look out for… (people who don’t feel insecure about their skills/talents are usually willing to shear their knowledge with anyone who cares to ask…)
Regarding sales of limited edition books like the ones you describe, I’m sure you know that there is a whole scene revolving around artists books… from one-of-a-kind to small runs of 100 copies or more… there are book dealers who specialize in this kind of books, and there are also fairs, festivals and the like…
DAH…
Re: skype…
Whenever you want/can…
DAVID AH
is there a link to the Cafepress shop? Im mean, just for the vanilla stuff would do it for me :)
David AH
Thanks a lot for your time and your honesty — however blunt it may appear on first read, I wouldn’t expect criticism any other way. Yes, I don’t have much experience, in that kind of photography and in that kind of storytelling, but hopefully, I’ve got plenty of room for improvement. And maybe the most difficult part for me, when editing, is precisely caring about my story and the details that could and even should be cut out…which leads me to keep pictures that just aren’t good, because I want them to mean something they don’t…
But now, you and the others who gave their opinion have made a lot of things much clearer for me, it helps a lot. And thanks also for the offer to talk about it in the future, I would gladly accept it, although probably when I’ll have something else much better to show…
Now back to work and having my mind blown away by this : http://magazine.viiphoto.com/feature/show/283, but I’ll definitely stay around.
Cheers,
-juliette
Thodoris it is pretty much the same here small numbers. I probably will go the 10 books way and the expense of a good binder. What the heck it is about the making just have to forgo a few things dollar wise, not unusual situation for me I have financed my own exhibitions with break even ir losses many a time……….
As for fairs, festivals and the like… etc I live in Australia with a very activity due to a lack of tradition and any fair encompasses all book types and subjects. Not the same as in Europe unfortunatly so my main market is the art market here.
Neat little how to make a mini book presentation you got there
THOMAS…
http://www.cafepress.com/burnstore
Burn t-shirts seem to be very cool….i like mine anyway….people seem to like them who have no idea what Burn is……they just like the shirt and the logo….we need hats though….
DAVID ALAN HARVEY
Thanks for answering David B’s question. Much appreciated.
Did you see the question I put on here re. the Time cover or should I copy it over again? I know you are busy drawing bags for Burn magazine but it relates to the matter of war and the potential for a third world war the way things are going. I have mentioned it 4 times now! : )
Thodoris, thanks, I’d be happy if you could send me the new template, need a few booklets to hand out in Paris in November.. sending you a mail.. as for the threads, some stiches forth and back before and after sewing might be enough, like that knots are selfmade but have to be fixed in some ways.. with fabric it’s easy, with paper a tad trickier..
JENNY…
busy drawing bags? laughing…sorry, yes i did see your question..but, i did not answer it because i kept thinking i would see the cover of Time, but did not..can you post it? then i will answer…i will do all i can to prevent a third world war!!
cheers, david
Uncle …
Have resubmitted and sent a link to ” Shrine” to either of your e-mail addresses.
Cheers Glenn
*i will do all i can to prevent a third world war!!*
:)
DAVID AH
thanks for the link!
“we need hats though….” …and photobags ;-)
I am going to sit out the third world war and get stuck into the fourth one when it comes channel 2
……….always figured there was no need to watch all the series
David,
i think we need two burn NEW T-SHIRTS:
“I’m BUSY DRAWING BAGS”
&
“the THIRD WORLD WAR is coming”
or how about this one:
“Stop Ignoring me! Its been the 4th time now”…
ok ok kiddin…6:50am in Los Angeles..time to change another flat tire..gdmorning yall”
one last i promise : “Jesus is here…Pretend you are busy”
very last one:
“You have a MASSIVE CHIP on your shoulder”
john gladdy
;)
ok , correction:
“I have a MASSIVE chip on my shoulder”
ok , love you all…
very very very last one (t-shirt logo):
“Negativity affectED my health and also gave me physical PAIN”
……… well then the Vatican better watch out according to….. MR Gibson senior http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1302166/Mel-Gibsons-dad-Hutton-Gibson-accuses-Pope-Benedict-XVI-gay-outrageous-radio-outburst.html
super duper last one:
“BURN IS MY CREDENTIALS”
over and out
burn Panos burn
Imants, i love the burn “negativity” today ;)
whats not to love?
………yea you can always watch the war from the back veranda and recite Corinthians to a dog
Keith Richards Talks about his TROUBLED CHILDHOOD…
DO NOT MISS:
(to all rolling fans out there)
1If I speak in the tongues[a] of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames,[b] but have not love, I gain nothing.
4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
DAVID ALAN HARVEY
I knew I could count on you to help in the effort to bring an end to war – or at least help prevent the third world one. First the question, and then, the link.
The question:
I would like to hear your opinion on the cover of TIME magazine generally but also, specifically, whether given that it is highly reminiscent of a National Geographic’s cover by Steve McCurry of 25 years ago that is already seared into the minds of people across America, whether you feel it is an affront to National Geographic. That cover had a neutral title Along Afghanistan’s Border – TIME’s cover has ‘What happens if we leave Afghanistan’ and appears to be using a former National Geographic cover/image to justify continued military occupation and in the creation of war propaganda.
The link: http://articles.latimes.com/2010/aug/09/local/la-me-afghan-girl-20100809
Of course we all know what propaganda is but there did appear to be a little confusion on the matter so here’s a basic definition of the meaning of ‘propaganda’ not for David, of course, but just nice to have it handy while we are looking at the cover of Time magazine:
Propaganda is a form of communication that is aimed at influencing the attitude of a community toward some cause or position. As opposed to impartially providing information, propaganda in its most basic sense, presents information primarily to influence an audience. Propaganda often presents facts selectively (thus possibly lying by omission) to encourage a particular synthesis, or uses loaded messages to produce an emotional rather than rational response to the information presented. The desired result is a change of the attitude toward the subject in the target audience to further a political agenda. Propaganda can be used as a form of political warfare.
damn, i didnt know that Steve McC owns the copyright of all headshots and portraits :(
also in Jerry Springer:
“Jealous husband throws acid in his unfaithful wife’s face…She was a model, now out of work”
(this actually happened in France and is not related to talibans)
Perhaps a better link as it has the confessions of Time’s managing editor attached to it:
http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2007269,00.html
I think we need a burn “what’s not to love” limited addition T shirt say 100 shirts at 100 dollars a pop. Use the money to offset the cost of the site or start an Emerging T-shirt Designer fund.
Kurt:)))
another cool one:
“Got colitis?”
big hug bro…sorry but once i get started…:)
but it should be on CIVI’s DYSLEXIC way:
WHAT NOT TO LOVE?
(minus the “‘s”)
:)
Panos, we may also want to change the spelling to “colitas”…
Otherwise, it may be mistaken for an advert for gastrointestinal distress ;-)
Have not commented in awhile, but this idea just came for Burn T-shirts & advertising… Possibly wearing Burn photo essays T-shirts to spread the word about important stories and issues published on Burn. Burn logo on front – iconic image or mozaic of the photo essay on the back…
Justin ;)
awesome!!!!!!!!!!
colitas
Colitas, “Little Tails”, or its slang, “Little Buds”.
On a dark desert highway, cool wind in my hair, warm smell of colitas, rising up through the air…
This part of the lyrics of the song “Hotel California”, by the Eagles, brought on curiosity about the word, as the bigger quest for understanding the entire song itself has met with as many “ideas” as to its meaning… but…
The word “colitas” means literally, “Little Tails”, thus use of the slang, “colitas”, (as referenced in the song) meaning the burning of little marijuana ‘tails/buds’.
Here’s what the Taliban had to say about the Time cover in an article by AFP yesterday:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hVyU2pZmx-oNvP0P3My43OZkMDjw
Here’s what the Taliban had to say about the Time cover in an article by AFP yesterday:
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hVyU2pZmx-oNvP0P3My43OZkMDjw
Posted again as I see the posts are getting lost among discussions about t-shirts.
The Taliban said Time was lying when it accused the group of slicing off 18-year-old Aisha’s nose and ears after she fled her abusive in-laws in southern Uruzgan province last year.
“The statement accused the Americans of “publishing these lies to divert attention of the people from their clear and disgraceful defeat.”The statement goes on to point out that under Islamic law the “cutting of human ears and noses whether the human is alive or dead is illegal and prohibited.”
So then who did it, if not the Taliban? So Aisha does not even exist? Is it all lies?
hmmmm, Jenny what are u really trying to say?
JENNY..
this is a tough one…though i do not see any affront to Natgeo or McCurry…30 years of separation in publication dates should be enough…besides one Afghan girl says “beauty” one says “horror”….the only two similarities are: vertical, Afghan woman…the eyes, the mood, the background, the color, the fineness of composition are totally different…anyway, no issue here for me regarding Natgeo…
the issue is simply with the Taliban and whether or not you, or any of us, believe we can, should, would stop them from being Taliban…and whether or not we can do this, should do this, will do this, by occupying their country militarily….and whether or not you see Time’s editor as supporting the U.S. led occupation…i saw his letter as an explanation, you saw it as a “confession”….hmmmmm….it is a matter of record that Time Magazine, along with others like Life and Newsweek, certainly led the efforts with reporting and photography to end the Vietnam War, the war in Nicaragua, Iraq invasion, etc and the right wingers consider it a leftist antiwar antimilitary magazine in general, so you seeing it in the opposite light is interesting…yes, i definitely see anti Taliban propaganda here…that is obvious…whether or not this is advocating to the American people that they should stay militarily in Afghanistan to prevent young women from being disfigured or not is another story….as the women rights activist that i think you are, i am sure you do not support at least some Taliban philosophy…at the same time , i am sure you want foreign armies from anywhere and everywhere out of Afghanistan….for sure, the Taliban are not going anywhere…no matter what you or i or anyone else thinks about them….they run deep deep in a culture that no Westerner can even begin to comprehend…no Westerner is going to change anything in Afghanistan ever….so here we are…stuck between a rock and a hard place….having knowledge of cultural atrocities by our standards, yet wanting our armies out….it seems to me that Time was posing exactly that question…with no answers available…what do you think should or can happen??
cheers, david
Whether the american troops stay or leave, the Talibans will stay and the afghan women will keep getting abused…
Women getting abused everywhere (so do men)…in europe, america , thailand …u name it…
i know its hard to admit this..women getting killed by stoning in Iran , a country that is not occupied by anyone..but still happens everyday…gay men get killed in Iran also…
Jenny sorry but its not all propaganda..some shit really happen:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10579121
I wish more people were aware of this Magnum Podcast:
http://inmotion.magnumphotos.com/podcasts/title/Taliban
DAH, i agree..that is the issue:
“…the issue is simply with the Taliban and whether or not you, or any of us, believe we can, should, would stop them from being Taliban…”
yes thats the issue, the rest just conspiracy theories…we all know what the taliban are, but do we have the right to stop them??????
and if we agree that we do, is war the right or only way to do it???? i will say that war definitely cant do it ..i wish i knew what Dalai has to say about it…
DAVID ALAN HARVEY
Thanks for your response. You have made a lot of assumptions on how I view things but no matter. What I see is this: blatant propaganda of the kind we see in ‘the gutter press’ on the cover of a ‘quality’ magazine. That magazine is Time. That you tell me that Time was among those that led efforts to end the war in Vietnam makes this kind of propaganda all the more surprising. It could in fact be seen as indicative of a major shift that has happened in the US since the Vietnam war, or since 9/11 is far more likely. The talk is already that the US press has become ‘a government lap-dog’ and I think this cover is a perfect illustration of that point of view. Anyway, that was not the question…
I am glad to hear that you feel it is not an affront to National Geographic magazine. Many, many people see it as a copy of the Afghan girl on National Geographic and one of the magazine’s most famous images. Of course, any photographer would be able to see all the differences that you mention, but not the person in the street I would think.
Actually, I am not so much concerned with what the title is saying as HOW it is saying it – my concern is all about journalism. And as this cover is about as far as a cover can be from good journalism or ‘bi-partisan journalism’ as a cover could be, I found myself agreeing for the very first time with a message put out by the Taliban yesterday. That the Time cover is: ‘a crime against journalism’. In my lifetime I have never seen such blatant propaganda and am shocked at how many photographers and journalists take so little notice of it. That, I find a worrying sign of our times…
http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hVyU2pZmx-oNvP0P3My43OZkMDjw
I see it was other Western journalists quoted as saying it is ‘a crime against journalism’. The Taliban stated: “Journalism is an important duty, thus it should not be used in spreading mischief.”
first:
You have made a lot of assumptions on how I view things but no matter
and then:
What I see is this: blatant propaganda of the kind we see in ‘the gutter press’ on the cover of a ‘quality’ magazine.
geez Louise..:)
I found myself agreeing for the very first time with a message put out by the Taliban yesterday
——————————————————————————————-
Jenny , please share what you smoke ;)
big hug
cant you see that u agree with the folks that mutilated poor Aisha???????????????????????????????
Regarding the Time piece…
I don’t know anything about the reputation of “The Seminal”, but you might be interested to take a look at this anyway (also, if you have an opinion about “The Seminal” please let me know):
http://seminal.firedoglake.com/diary/62743
(Panos and DAH, please don’t view this posting as a sign that I’m taking Jenny’s side on this matter… just view the piece if you have the time, and judge the information on its own right…)
New T-Shirt logo:
GEEZ LOUISE
Panos and DAH, please don’t view this posting as a sign that I’m taking Jenny’s side on this matter…
———————————————————————————————
No worries Thodoris..im partly joking with Jenny’s contradictions and conspiracy theories…And im afraid that Americans DID actually land on the moon…:)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon_landing_conspiracy_theories
man..im late for work
Panos: I do not know what HH Dalai Lama’s position is on the war in Afghanistan but I would imagine it is pretty similar to his position on Iraq: that there was no need for the war and that foreign forces should not have occupied Iraq, that there was the possiblity to find diplomatic solutions but insufficient effort was put into the dialogue at the point that the decision was made to the send forces in. I saw a video of him talking on this topic at a university in California (on TED talks I believe), if you’re interested to know more let me know and I’ll try to look it up…
Panos: You are an intelligent man. Please don’t give us, or anyone who should read this, any other impression than you are intelligent by adding more links on conspiracy theories etc.
Panos and I see eye to eye on this one Jenny. Do you believe anything else the Taliban is saying? Do you believe the Taliban were the instigators of this kind of behavior? It said the husband did it and her husband’s family. Would this have happened if the Taliban were not such an influence? Didn’t the Talban whip that women on the street because her socks showed beneath her hem? Have we not seen many instances around the world where men who have gained power by brutal means been able to convince and allow brutes the opportunity to lash out at women and children and old people?
I still do not see an issue with the title of the cover. They are asking a question. As Socrates said, the questions are good, it is the answers that divide. And this seems to be proving out again.
Lee: Please re-read my comment carefully. All the answers are in there. We have also had this discussion on Facebook and as I recall, you agreed with me on there. Please look at the cover again. There is no question there.
And actually this kind of treatment of women has been going on in that country and many others for centuries. The Taliban have just perfected the means.
The question of whether we should be in the war at all is one we should all be thinking about and it seems we are. I heard the prez of Afghan say he felt his countries forces would be ready to take care of protecting their citizens by the year 2014! Ridiculous.
Whoops. Politics and religion in one day. Although Imants Corintians 13 was nice. The only writings of Paul that I appreciate.
Much more people are being killed in the States on electric chairs or by deadly injections than around all over the world by stoning to death… Countries have their own low, traditions, standards, ethics… Try to tell educated lady in Iran that women are being abused there, and you will be directed to the library to familiarize yourself with Iran, history, traditions, Islam… I have personally seen, when one such a westerner – victim of propaganda, for such heresies, by university educated muslim lady was called a complete idiot… On the other hand, for example in Germany and Austria, you would be detained and jailed just if you officially expess your personal doubts about the Jewish holocaust… Guys, don’t make too much noise, double standards and propaganda will rule forever… it’s not up to us photographers to change the world…
No idea about the reputation of ‘The Seminal’, but reading the article it sure does make sense (unfortunately). Seems like all is a bogus card game.
Well, actually Jenny, below are my comments to that thread on Facebook.
“I see all of the news as exploitive. Without the event to show and tell where would the news teams be? Not making a profit that is for sure.
The fact is now that that woman has been put on the cover someone will no doubt volunteer to do the plastic surgery she needs to giver her back a somewhat normal appearance, and she will have accomplished something others are not able to do–make a better life for herself. In this way you could say she is exploiting the press.
I am sure the husband was influenced by the Taliban’s belief system and just took advantage of the times to do what he wanted to do anyway. Men all over the world are doing horrible things to women under the guise of a belief system but those that do these things are ignorant and have no compassion for human life. They use any excuse to do harm to women because they are afraid of woman and hate them for that fear.
All publications are trying to sway US foreign policy. And don’t forget, the woman had to giver her permission. To do that will not only help her in some ways but can also do much damage. Her family and neighbors will now no doubt be the target to get back at her. It took a lot of courage for this woman to do this. What if it had appeared on the cover of Ode with the caption “The Life of Women Under the Rule of Extremists”? Would you have felt like she was exploited?
As far as I am concerned everyone in the media business is a spinner. So every piece of news I see is taken with a grain of salt and I always read between the lines.
Somewhere, somehow the people of Afghanistan have to run their country themselves. They have to stop fighting amongst themselves, and stop drawing countries in to take sides against each other in their own country. This is true of so many conflicts in the world; they can’t come together and so they draw others in to fight their stupid battles. They do this by using their citizens as bait. The same could happen here as well if we do not stop this constant blaming game and shouting conspiracy and start focusing on living our lives and helping others.” (Note: the prez of Afghan said the other day he felt his troops and police would be ready to protect his people by the year 2014! Good grief!)
JENNY,
Did you ever stop to think that the Taliban are quite possibly using propaganda themselves (even more so and truly nefarious other than just misguided)??? I know we went through all of this a couple of weeks ago. Let’s let it rest and all agree to agree or disagree with your definition of what is and isn’t propaganda.
Like David said earlier, when every other post is the Jenny Lynn soapbox :) then it becomes a bit wearing. Personally I would like to see your own photos. Any time frame on a link? It’s a cliche, but you need to walk the walk if you are going to talk the talk. I don’t care if your photos are good, bad, whatever, but you need to put yourself out there other than just posting on forums. Or start your own blog devoted to some of the issues you care so deeply about. Your input is valid and honored by all here I’m sure (myself included), but you should try to sit back and take a breath, heed some of the lessons you might have learned from here, and work on your website, essays, etc. If you need advice on your photos there are plenty of people here that will give you some, though DAH himself is quite possibly one of the busiest people on the planet (and everybody wants a piece of him), so best to post links and ask others then the man himself.
Okay, gotta run. Beautiful day outside. Life is good.
Best,
CP
Our friend and fellow Burnian Aga Luczakowska is featured and interviewed on the NYTimes Lens blog —
http://lens.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/08/11/turning/
If you all want to discuss propaganda, you need to agree on a definition of the word first. In most common usage nowadays, it’s defined as “dishonest rhetoric,” which means the attempt to persuade someone with dishonest means.
In this case, the information managers at the Pentagon or the White House are using the media to persuade liberals to keep supporting the war, or at least to not actively oppose it. Conspiracy theory? Perhaps, but when several big media outlets suddenly publish essentially the same government source dependent story out of the blue, it’s usually a sign. They do stuff like that all the time. It’s no secret. Government really does try to influence public opinion and often by dishonest means. Over and over and over again.
But how to persuade liberals to support a war they would normally oppose? Tie it to a liberal cause. Liberals don’t like violence against women. Argue that leaving Afghanistan would result in horrific violence against women. Is that an honest argument? Coming from a conservative magazine? Coming from the Pentagon? Coming from a White House deeply invested in a war and in danger of losing liberal support?
Or is that persuasion by honest means? The argument rests on the assumption that we, as an occupying force, are doing something now to stop domestic violence against women. That is not true. Our troops are respecting the local cultural norm that allows it. Were we to enforce our laws against domestic violence, we would have no allies there. Every ethnic group would rise against us.
The argument also assumes that those making it care about the rights of Afghan women, at least to the extent that they think we should stay at war to protect them and continue to spend 100s of billions of dollars until they are safe. Yea, right.
No, propaganda doesn’t get much more blatant than this.
And although it’s important to note that prior offenses are not proof of current guilt, I do think it’s worth considering that Time Magazine has a long and sordid history of pushing right wing propaganda. Henry Luce didn’t even bother to hide it. And how hard is it to dupe the New York Times? WMD anyone?
And keep in mind, it doesn’t matter whether you or for or against the war, or any other political issue. Propaganda is a thing in and of itself and if you truly want to be free, it’s important to learn how to recognize it. If you want to play a little game, click on the link and see how long it takes you to identify what kind of propaganda mechanism they beat us over the head with in the Time piece.
Thanks Preston. Love the image Aga. Having been there myself and been involved in the religious aspect of that region and the effects on women I love your essay.
Panos wrote,
“very last one:
“You have a MASSIVE CHIP on your shoulder”
With that in mind how about,
“SHOOT FROM THE CHIP”
Preson: Thanks for the link. I’ll pass it on. I love what Aga Luczakowska says about the image by Stanley Greene that inspired her – that he showed a crime scene without blood. And what a very beautiful way of honoring her teacher by telling why that image changed the direction of her own work. Thank you so much.
MICHAEL W
Thank you for those words. I agree with all of your basic arguments and most of all on how important it is that we all know how to ‘recognize’ propaganda. It was the failure to recognize it prior to the Second World War that made the job of Hitler’s propaganda minister Goebbels so much easier. I put a dictionary definition along with the question as I believe it is vitally important in these times, but it so far seems that not many people are very interested on here.
ANTHONY
If I were an American and didn’t care about any of the people who live in the 194-plus other countries in the world, the ‘don’t-make-too-much-noise-because-double-standards-and-propaganda-will-rule-forever’ is the kind of attitude I would take.
Charles: David asked for the link to Time to be put on here today, and answered this very question today. You may not care too much about journalism, or propaganda, or war, or what your government is doing, or what happens in the world around and that is up to you. If you have a question you would like to put to David or a topic you would like discussed, why don’t you do that. Until you do, you will always take the back seat as someone who just complains. Feel free to change the topic anytime you want.
Much more people are being killed in the States on electric chairs or by deadly injections than around all over the world by stoning to death…
————-
Nah… Now u making things up..
Show me some numbers..
Jenny, I’m not so sure it’s that people don’t care but I know with me there’s so much else to care about just in the everyday looking after the family, cussing my camera (it has fault), walking the dog etc that I have to choose where to invest the rest of my energies (thoughts and time) so sometimes important issues like this get no more than a trying to get the gist of it read through and then I’m on to other things…it’s not through lack of care, more a lack of me.
And also this is a great place to raise issues but maybe not somewhere that people feel is the place to discuss them in depth…I don’t know….
Even the Bible recorded stonings..
Electricity came much later.. Plus the US is only couple centuries old…
I wanna blame America for everything too but it’s kinda naive.. Don’t u think???
Panos, more important than numbers I think is to know why people are being stoned to death and why they are executed on the electric chair, what crimes tehy are accused of or have commited.. if they had a chance to defend themselves (or being defended) before the court.. (that said my opinion about death penalty is a firm NO)
Well, I think it would be hard to argue that propaganda issues, particularly when they so prominently feature photographs, are not relevant to a site, like this one, that features a lot of photojournalism.
And try, try, try as I have been to stay out of this, I think you, Jenny, would do well to take some significant time and contemplate all of the excellent advice that people like David and Charles have been so kind as to share with you.
Hmm, that reads a bit odd (my last comment to Panos), perhaps I should elaborate:
while I agree that a country like the US, where death penalty is still in use, isn’t in the best position to point a finger against other countries where the same custom is in use, I don’t think that the execution of a person condemned in a country like the US can be compared to a stoning happening in a country where the condemned has had no way to defend her/himself or is put to death for ‘crimes’ like adultery, for example.
Michael: Thank you for restraining yourself for so long. It is much appreciated. I sincerely hope that over the coming 24 hours more people will take some significant time to contemplate the question of how much propaganda is there in the US press.
DAVID ALAN HARVEY
In addition to the topic of propaganda in the press and the photographer’s involvement in its creation, it would be great if connected issues concerning photographers rights as well as the rights of the subject were also discussed. Perhaps this could be a broader topic discussed by all at some point? Rights issues? What do you think?!
I will leave all you lovely people now – as I did for the past 24 hours prior to the question to our dear leader David Alan Harvey, I always wondered why David became my teacher since it happened through synchronicity. I suspect it is connected with the 15 foot rule which made his images different from his teachers and his heart, closer to people, as is mine (most of the time) ; )
JENNY,
Fair enough. But I do put questions to David on here (just the other day in fact about teaching workshops which I am currently doing for highschool students) and sometimes he answers and sometimes he doesn’t (he didn’t). But I don’t bring it up again and again if he doesn’t at first answer. No one of us is the center of the universe (except for Panos!):):):))
(and for the record I do care deeply about war, journalism, propaganda, human rights and all that. I’ve done NGO work and have helped raise money via print sales for Katrina, Haiti, and an arms length list of orgs from AIDS housing to inner city kids photo programs. But I also am very wary of conspiracy theories and self righteousness whether it comes from left, right or center. I do think that small actions – start with helping your immediate neighbor or even yourself often mean more and can reverberate to the world at large. I also think the TIME piece is wrong, on many levels, just not so convinced that it is blatant propaganda and that the Taliban are somehow right.)
Best,
CP
CHARLES
You are right. I am so sorry I missed the part in your post about sharing my work. I would love to share a website, a blog, and more. Some photogs when they have been away for a year need a little time to adjust. I have been away for four and a half years and will need a little longer. I’m truly sorry about that.
VICKY
I know exactly how it is. It is the same for us all. This is a shocking example that says ‘wake-up’!
I’ll be back after some time apart…
Love, peace and photographs! Post well everyone! Oime, to sleep, perchance to dream.
(Shakespeare for Imants)
Charles do not forget that I carry a large format CCD CHIP on my shoulder..;)
Hugs to Felix
LEE
Those are not ALL of your comments. Love ya! : )
PANOS,
Just make sure you got a big ass memory card for that chip brother! And no tethering allowed!! :):)
Peace Bro,
CP
JENNY,
If you are reading this… no worries. I too need to bow out for a while. I’m on this really challenging 3 month long shamanic diet with no sugar and no salt (or onions, spices, saltwater fish, red meat, sex, alcohol, and the list goes on). While really rewarding it can be frustrating, and whiling away time on the internet (even if it is BURN) probably isn’t the best way to access the teachings of the diet (and I think is making frustrations rise up and vent).
Big hugs to all BURNIANS!
Ciao,
CP
To have a gander means to look…………. so lets have a proper gander
Jared and the Vampires (venice)
http://picasaweb.google.com/innerspacecowpanos/Jpeg?authkey=Gv1sRgCMqv_PDJl62KmgE#slideshow/5504257014366096642
24 hours of bliss
complete strangers
http://picasaweb.google.com/innerspacecowpanos/Jpeg?authkey=Gv1sRgCMqv_PDJl62KmgE#slideshow/5504286063202093506
Ready to accept the Holy Spirit in venice
http://picasaweb.google.com/innerspacecowpanos/Jpeg?authkey=Gv1sRgCMqv_PDJl62KmgE#slideshow/5504282618049160850
Panos, re: complete strangers – that’s a “Whole Lotta Love” :-)
It doesn’t seem quite right to just drop in on a discussion that I haven’t been following (when I am in the field, it is impossible for me to keep up on these discussions – in fact, its pretty hard even when I am home) but undoubtedly you are all going insane with curiosity, wondering what a frostfrog looks like before, during, and after a haircut and beard trim.
Here is your chance to find out:
http://wasillaalaskaby300.squarespace.com/journal/2010/8/11/i-go-to-a-place-of-rescue-and-get-a-cut.html
This ought to generate some intense philosophical and intellectual debate.
Justin..yes that two strange strangers actually met right there in front of me..
The guy was pretending to be an actor ( he supposedly was starring in the Charles Manson movie) and the girl pretending to be a producer or designer or some LA crap like that…next thing u know they started posing for me..in reality i thing they just wanted to make out and used me and the camera as an excuse..if u see all the series of the photos u will see in the beginning that they pose but very soon enough they became very touchy and feely…
Venice, whats not to love?????
:)
Bill…..you look pretty cool…..
You would fit perfectly up in the big bear san bernardino mountains…
You represent…
I never know how anyone looks like in real life just by reading their posts but u didnt disappoint me at all..
You look as you suppose to look..
(whatever that means)..totally loved your portraits/self portraits too
:)
Frostfrog:
“You did a fine job, Johnny – especially considering that you didn’t have much to work with in the first place.”
Hummm. Sounds like fishing to me Frost. But I will take the bait. Yep. You look good. I like the barber shop series. Put a smile on my face.
Lee
Panos those last three photos are excellent. I may have to visit Venice Beach one day.
im gonna run for VB mayor one day…
im doing my best to attract tourists ;)
Charles, I hear there is a spot under the Bodhi tree. Just teasing you but wondering a bit about the teaching. Are you taking before and after photos? Cause no doubt you will be a dramatically different dude on the other side.
Lee
And Panos, thanks for the help with Picasa. Almost have one series up and plan to post when ready. XO oh and Hugs.
Where are you Civi?
A few days back I posted the oddity of a major photographer friend of mine her on island that would not let me take his photo. Turns out, he NEVER allows his photo to be taken, not yearbooks, nothing except DMV and Passport. Never has.
How many of you out there have issues with your photo being taken yet have taken really raw and revealing photos of other people? At first I wasn’t into having mine taken but then realized what hypocrisy it was. I began to like photos of myself and learned even more how important it was to take really good photos of people, ones that even those that say they never take a good photo are shocked they look so good.
Anybody? Of course, I realize I am at the end of the day and many of you are just beginning yours and some in the middle of the night. Till next time.
no worries Lee..i created picasa one cold winter afternoon when i was bored;)
cmon, hurry up, post photos…im tired reading my stupid comments..
as CP said , do the talk but also walk the walk..hurry, i need to go to sleep…;)
CP also said:
“Just make sure you got a big ass memory card”
Charles i got the “big ass” and the “memory”..just lacking the “card”…
big hug…
Lee..u done yet ?
PANOS – If your going to be mayor of VB then you should start on your merchandising…
http://collectables.shop.ebay.com.au/Breweriana-Beer-/562/i.html?_nkw=vb&_catref=1&_fln=1&_trksid=p3286.c0.m282
LEE
I have issues having others take a picture of me, and therefore make “funny” faces from time to time.
I have to learn to accept that I look like I look – and then it is fine :)
Doing selfportraits is another story :)
Lee, Thomas, I’m kinda the same…I don’t say no to people taking my picture but I totally avoid looking at them….the outside doesn’t fit the skinny 14 year old inside.
:)
With all five books I placed a picture of myself in the timeline…… 3 self portraits stayed in the book “doi knia”. In the others I transformed into text.
_________________________________________
self is important in one’s work
JENNY…
you ask me to take the time to answer one of your questions regarding the Time cover …i do so……your primary response to me is : “you make a lot of assumptions on how i view things” as if i had started the discussion….hmmmm, scratching my bald head … again …….i have no idea on how you view things Jenny except in what you write..and that is also why i left the question to you at the end, which was exactly asking how you view things…i was looking for the real “meat” of your views, and what you wrote at the end was almost exactly word for word what you wrote at the beginning…so we have now all read at least ten times what you think of the Time cover and its implications… i think we all got it…thanks
i do agree with you however that the press has taken a shift since the Vietnam War and i personally lament this shift…..at some point it might be a good idea here to discuss formally the press and propaganda, although it must be the most shop worn cliche discussion of all time…we all know there are few if any impartial observers…traditionally the press either represents big business or a government or both…no revelation here…but give me a new angle to take on this one, and maybe we can do something interesting that has not been done and done and done…
Charles Peterson has it right…you need to do two things….(a) start your own forum for your own causes..please…Burn will never be able to do enough for you in this regard (b) go take a picture or two….also please….almost all of the folks who post here also have posted photographs from time to time……nobody posts comments more than you with no pictures to go with them…Imants and Panos write a lot, but they also shoot a lot and we see their new work all the time..you say you have “been away” for four years..not sure what you have “been away” from, but weren’t you making pictures all that time? it takes literally a few minutes to set up a Picasweb acct i think and you can easily link….
i think showing your selected photographic works to this audience will give your written “voice” a bit more cred…why not show us 10-20 BKK images??…i have seen them, and some are quite good…certainly worth a view by your esteemed colleagues here on Burn…
CHARLES…
sorry , you said i neglected to answer a question…you can always post something again if you think i missed it…happens all the time…i do try to answer all questions …eventually!! yesterday and last night i was without power for many hours after a lightning storm, so i did get behind on everything….
cheers, david
we all know there are few if any impartial observers…
Is that really true? It doesn’t have to be. I’ve been academically trained to be an impartial media analyst and observer and although it takes constant vigilance in this message soaked culture, do a fairly decent job of it, particularly if challenged. You, David, seem to have a pretty finely honed bullshit detector yourself. I know you’ve had similar training.
And we can all study propaganda analysis and logical fallacies and see how they are used in everyday communications and how we, too, may be using or falling victim to them ourselves. Of course all too often people only see the cold hard propagandistic structure of an argument when it’s one they disagree with and react with positive emotions to arguments they prefer to be true, but it’s within our power to fight that tendency in ourselves and point it out when we see it in others’ public discourse.
but give me a new angle to take on this one, and maybe we can do something interesting that has not been done and done and done…
Yea, tough assignment. The story doesn’t change, only the characters. Short distance between Aristotle and Orwell. It’s just that some see 1984 as a lesson, others as a warning, while others — all too many others — see it as a how-to manual and use it accordingly.
MW…
you make a lot of sense overall….and i think you are correct about the politics of Henry Luce…however, Time Inc., specifically Life Magazines single most powerful anti war issue of any magazine ever, i might cut them some slack in this direction…the issue they did on Vietnam with a picture and story of every single man killed on that particular week , i think did more to sway the American public against the war than any single thing…and remember also that many/most of the great war photographers have been supported by Time inc….McCullen, Duncan, Smith, Griffiths, Burrows, Kennerly, Nachtwey etc etc
the right thinks most of the press is left and the left thinks the press is in the hands of the right…
i am not countering your very good points…just wanted you to remember some exceptions… or perhaps they are just visible and noticeable nods in the direction of the the correct thing to do and are not sincere…i just do not know…
cheers, david
p.s. this was a simultaneous post with your most recent comment, and was a response to a previous comment..hope that was obvious
MW…
i would modify “impartial observers” to impartial publications…
Of course you’re right about the exceptions, David. They are many and Life was a fantastic example. Harper’s continues to be excellent to this day. Though it’s sad to see once fine publications like the Atlantic go over the cliff, I’ve no doubt others will rise to replace it. Anyway, I don’t mean to paint the media as a monolith. Guess I’m just sayin that when it comes to media analysis, there are tools of analysis at our disposal and that we should use them on stories whether we like the gist of them or not.
And hopefully I’m not seen as being argumentative, at least not in a bad way. I’m pretty sure you understand I’m not hectoring you, just engaging in a conversation with someone, a community here actually, with similar interests and backgrounds. I am always pleasantly surprised when you respond to anything I’ve written, but I never expect it, much less feel that you are in any way obligated.
One Year At Burn…
Roundabout one year ago I had my first contact with David and Burnmagazine.
It was an amazing experience for me to be here and being welcomed by the community – like a step into a new world. In one side my seeing experience is changing, my perception about importance and what is less importance changes, too. I have seen great essays, read very interesting discussions and hope I was able to participate in one or the other. Burn is a constant in my experience and like an online school for me.
Due to some events during this year I cannot attend Workshops for this and the next year, however
during my business travels I can meet people from Burn everywhere in the world.
My photography develops – currently more in a way that I am not really satisfied with the pictures I produce, but I see improvement for myself.
In the beginning of this year, I broke my ankle – here is a short sequence on the first days: http://www.flickr.com/photos/tfelix/sets/72157623178612838/
I was asked to participate in a book about photography – my chapter is about available light. It will be published in September at the Photokina. The pictures which get along the text are these: http://www.flickr.com/photos/tfelix/sets/72157623855067628/
Certainly, I am not a big artist, or a good storyteller :) – however I try and I learn. (and develop, I hope)
This site is a big part of my learning experience – and the two examples above would have never happen without Burnmagazine.
Now, I want to thank David and Anton and all others for making Burn to such a great place.
What are your experiences with Burn so far? What would not have happened without it?
MW…
i never see you as being argumentative for its own sake…i sometimes may disagree with you or have a counter point, but that is just the nature of forum….the positive nature of forum….
THOMAS…
congratulations on your available light chapter and it’s inclusion at Photokina…cool…i look forward to reading it…i am so pleased you are getting something positive out of Burn…certainly its intent, its only intent….you always have a good spirit and seem to roll through the sometimes verbal cloudy skies in good spirits and with a sunny way of looking at things always…a good trait to be sure…many thanks for being a part…
cheers, david
HERVE…
where are you?? a long family tree search has revealed that we are long lost cousins…no joke…Harvey, which is an English name of course, was changed from Herve when my ancestors came to these shores…escaping the law i imagine…renegades on the run for sure…anyway, the Herve family was Dutch.. i guess decided to change to Harvey to match their colonial masters wishes?? …Herve, Dutch and French?? my mother’s side is all English, so i cannot escape entirely this background which i must admit seemingly does not suit me at all…apologies to the English….can’t be all bad…but got to be some Latin blood in there somewhere…in any case, i am ready to go back to Herve…with your permission of course…
cheers, david alan herve
LEE..
good perspectives….and you have been in the middle of it…you know….
CHARLES…
sounds like the cleanse i was on…i must say worked for me…felt great, feel great….i have backslid just a bit and treated myself to a chocolate malt the other day but i have cut my sugar intake way way down , nicotine zero, and much less caffein…lotsa nuts, berries, veggies…cannot stand the thought of a fast food place…nicotine and sugar the two worst enemies…about equal in danger from all that i can read…anyway, good luck….
Hello Thomas, Good question…Burn, and before that Road Trips, has been an interesting experiance: I contributed a bit to Dialogue and visited as many of the links as possible; learned a lot from the essays; inspired enough that I took one of David’s workshop; heard so much about it that I visited Look3 twice; submitted many essays and singles; made some small donations. I rarely write but I most certainly have an internal dialogue when I view the essays and read the narrative of the vsrious dialogues. I’ve met some of the Burn ‘characters’–David as well as Panos, Kerry, Bob Black, Kyunghee Lee, Diego, Mike Courvosier, Andrew Sullivan, Erica, the departed Patrica and others. So Burn is very real for me. Without Burn I think I would have stayed at a certain comfort level, convinced I was doing well with my photography when in actual fact I was stagnating or worse. It has been challenging but I’ve forced myself to reevaluate my approach. I see some progress. For that I am always indebted to David and the Burn community…in short Burn makes a very tangible, real difference. I probably ‘take’ more from Burn than I ‘give’ and I’m trying to balance the equation somehow…
DAH, pretty cool to read about the Herve –> Harvey name change. From his genealogy research, my father tells me that we were originally Dutch Schmidts… I’m not sure the reason for the either, but I’ll go with the outlaw theory because it’s more badass than just trying to fit in :-)
DAVID AH,
what about trading books? smiling .. you get one signed copy with my chapter, I get a Burn01?
How good is your German, btw – the chapter is in German…
DOUG,
yeah, I also have the impression I take much more from Burn than I give. We should think about more contribution … BTW – have you seen the link to the burnshop? Yesterday, I ordered new clothing for me :)
David Alan Harvey & All….
Returning from Guatemala last week, I have been trying to get my head back in the game here at the newspaper, hard to switch gears after four weeks of leave…
I have enjoyed the conversations & dialogue here on Burn over the past few days…especially the idea/topic of Authorship….
It seems to me that ones “style” comes first and their “voice” second…presumably because the second is much more difficult to achieve. Style I would say is tangible and easily recognized, where as ones motives, voice, or personal passions are deeper in the subject matter, perhaps only visible in a larger, complete body of work. Perhaps context plays it’s own role as well? Not sure.
I have struggled to create authorship in my own work over the years, and therefore I find it interesting to hear others thoughts on the subject – the intricacies of creating/defining ones self in a consistently competitive industry, or field of art.
These words from DAH really nailed it….
“..from looking at your work i have no idea what you are thinking or feeling about anything…that is what authorship is about, or at least part of it…..anyway, give it some thought…and look closely at Vic Cobo and Emily Schiffer…opposites from each other, but anybody can see who they ARE….”
This got me thinking, asking questions, and seeking answers in my own work.
I hope that as I edit my work from the last month and organize my thoughts on Guatemala, what I feel needs to be said will come out through those images which I created along the way…
Long overdue- I was finally able to purchased a machine that is capable of editing the volume of work which I have produced over the years…not to mention being able to stay on top of the work i am shooting in the moment-day to day! A very exciting step forward…I look forward to sharing these images as they materialize into potential projects/essays!
Cheers, Jeremy
i just realized that Skoulidas name was actually Colitas but my grandfather changed it right after he served his time for driving down the PCH with couple joints in his pocket…:)
Re:colitas
Colitas, “Little Tails”, or its slang, “Little Buds”.
On a dark desert highway, cool wind in my hair, warm smell of colitas, rising up through the air…
This part of the lyrics of the song “Hotel California”, by the Eagles, brought on curiosity about the word, as the bigger quest for understanding the entire song itself has met with as many “ideas” as to its meaning… but…
The word “colitas” means literally, “Little Tails”, thus use of the slang, “colitas”, (as referenced in the song) meaning the burning of little marijuana ‘tails/buds’.
Doug said:
” Without Burn I think I would have stayed at a certain comfort level, convinced I was doing well with my photography when in actual fact I was stagnating or worse…”
(tell me about it:)
Thomas, wouldn’t say Burn is the only ‘culprit’, it’s been a combination of things including Burn though that made me change, to the better I hope and feel.. less time on the net, a LOT more time in the darkroom, actually finishing projects, instead of mulling over them.. contributing/donating a little as I can when I can, and staying away when I have to.. congrats on your chapter..
Panos, enjoying VB from far away, tx for the pics..
Bill, sounds as you’re back on track :)
Thomas, thanks for sharing your link. Nice to see a face with the name. The woman with the cast, coffee with leaves, drive by of outdoor cafe and the band practice are my favorites in available light. I see your style and like it. The title caught my attention as I love shooting with just available light. Flash still drives me crazy although I am adjusting.
Panos, one computer uploading (almost finished) and laptop reading Burn. Soon. I am scared to put some of it up but want to show my work with the Mennonites as the personal stuff just isn’t where I want it yet. Maybe that is a reflection of my life. Who knows. But this site and all this talk of walking our talk is working.
Thanks everyone for great conversation with the entire world from a little island in the Pacific Ocean.
little island? Mighty Hawaii u mean!
most people’s dream :)
Restrepo:
THOMAS – happy 1st BURNday!!!
Congratulations on your book-chapter! And thanks so much for posing this question, as it gives opportunity to slow down and reflect on what has happened during the past year. A year that has been flying by. I learned about BURN around 18 months ago (many thanks to you, LASSAL!!!), and since then my photographic horizon has broadened in oh so many ways. I met DAVID, when I was attending his At Home – workshop in Brooklyn last october. What an eye opener that was! Man, I would still think in my limited ways. And damn, yeah, I’m still struggling.
DAVID – thank you so much for having twisted my photographic world!!! In person, or together with ANTON (thanks, man!) here on BURN. You guys have created a home. This does not feel virtual. It’s the REAL thing! Keep on tilting my horizons!!!
Big hug, Dominik.
PS: Ready for a cold one??? I’ll be in NYC second half of september…
Ok here it is. This family accepted me into their lives for several days and allowed me to not only photograph them but to use my work in whatever manner I wish as long as I do not divulge their identity or location. I feel very blessed to have them as friends. They have totally opened my eyes to a lifestyle and belief system I had very few facts about. These people are very happy and the children are exceptional. I hope this link works. Or as “The Secret” would say: This link works!
http://picasaweb.google.com/100779520756323721614/MennoniteFamily#slideshow/5504324628350996194
Forgot to say: the first part was taken on their farm in the south and the second series in their new home on the east coast. They moved from a home and farm with no electricity or running water to a home that is on the grid. They have a year (to follow the rules of the order) to retrofit it back to no electric, etc.
Lee, the link works, thanks for sharing. Don’t have much time, fish in the stove screams to get out, so just quick: have you considered to edit tighter? Also, can you go back and spend more time with them? My feeling is that there are many aspects missing.. one technical question, since I don’t know other work from you, do you always use such a wide lens? Will go back and look again with more time..
Lee. Thanks for putting the link up.
I realize the set is, really, just a quick show and tell but agree with Eva in that
a much tighter edit would be beneficial.
It’s clear you have been given amazing access and I hope it’s a project you will
move forward with.
It feels like you need to spend more time with them as it seems in many of the images
that the family is sort of interacting with you by way of smiles,looking at camera,etc.
If you can get to the point where you are not the ‘novelty’ in their activities them i think you’d
be able to produce a very compelling document.
Following the transition of their new home and its amenities back to traditional ways seems like
the ‘hook’ to me.
Best,
Mark
Mark and Eva, this is indeed in need of a tighter edit. I am not sure what to take it to thus the numerous shots that I liked are still in there. They live quite a long distance from everywhere I am but I do plan on revisiting them again in their new home. You are right, they are all interacting with the novelty of me in these two pieces. I am hoping that as time goes on more will be shown. The biggest obstacle is that I cannot shoot them with the others in their new group yet due to no established relationship. I hope to return and begin a relationship with the others. I did spend one night at their meeting with a whole group and they were very receptive to me in the context of their religion. A woman set next to me and translated the service. My host was absolutely positive I should not bring my camera. I did bring it but kept it out of sight and found no way to take any photos without being seen.
Regarding choice of lens I have to say I do gravitate mostly to 17-35 and the fish eye effect was from one I briefly flirted with the 10-24. My next favorite is the 100-400 which does not work in these settings. I have often sought a different lens I would like better but have not as yet discovered it.
One of the things that comes across to me in this work is that I feel like I have made a contact that is very difficult to do. This family is on the outside of the typical members of orders like this in that they are “more progressive” as the father likes to say. However, due to the fact that they are “more progressive” they are looked upon with suspicion still in this new place and walking on eggshells is the way for them right now. I hope to return in the winter months to shoot more and spend more than 2 days. I am eager to see how their new home is retrofitted.
These two shoots were more about finding a comfort level with the family and building a trust with them. So far the novelty of me has not worn off enough to get the less guarded shots, especially with the children. But the second shoot was indeed more comfortable. I have noticed in other Mennonite work that this happens too.
Lee..:)
great…one thing ..go back to picasa , click on every photo individually, go at the bottom of photo and add sequence numbers (1, 2, 3…etc) that would help folks to edit or chose which they prefer (big hug)
Specialist Sterling Jones on being a soldier
Sergeant Brendan O’Byrne on life after deployment
“Restrepo”
4000 US Soldiers killed in Iraq
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9FxyvO4poY&feature=related
(please do NOT miss the last 4 seconds of this video)
Taliban at work …more propaganda???!!!???? u judge
Thanks Panos for the tip. I have numbered them and also deleted about 10-15 so I see repetition but am still not sure about what else to take out as don’t know the slant of the story yet. However, it has gotten me back to thinking of how this could go further. I am reading Larry Towell’s book “The Mennonites” so maybe nuggets will come out that will help me “infiltrate” or “embed” better. I see lots of his photos with the faces of people covered by their hands or hats. And they are black and white which gives them a feel I am not that crazy about; maybe it is the printing that draws away from the prints and leaves me kind of flat. Back to it though with new eyes.
good girl :)
Sometimes…
I love Towell’s work with the Mennonites, also his Front Porch.. I see intimacy, I feel I’m there, part of it.. well, he’s followed them for ten years if I remember right, and I think it shows..
http://picasaweb.google.com/innerspacecowpanos/PIGEONSINVENICE#5303978330898281186
Panos, more orgies, fewer pigeons :)) Although the Corona and the pack of smokes looked so familiar.
DAVID ALAN HARVEY
Thanks so much for answering my question. I’m happy to know that you didn’t feel the Time cover is an affront to National Geographic. I don’t want to discuss it too much because we don’t see eye to eye on it. I am glad you agree that certain publications are in the pocket of government/corporations. This cover is consistent with the policy of the current Administration and I feel certain we will all eventually suffer from the ‘mis-information’ and wars we take part in. It is the law of karma.
You asked what I have been ‘away from’ in the past 4.5 years. I have been away from wherever I am not – working on my vision as you advised and exploring just as Mike C. Brown likes to do. I don’t know what is the longest you have ever been on assignment David or lived in the developing world, but I have an inkling it may be closer to months than it is years. Carl de Keyzer said that when he creates a book, he generally stays away for a year and it takes him 3 months to get the book together when he gets home. I have a feeling I will need longer than that and still need to think what is the most effective way to say what I want to say. That’s not going to be easy although I have made a start.
The work is all from one trip and I don’t want to add a link at this point. There is a link to one day’s work in Nepal (A Temple in the Terai) that everyone has seen but the whole body of work takes different twists and turns along the journey. Help would be so very much appreciated but not at this very moment.
I am not sure how long I have been posting on Burn but I believe I began when I was in Bangkok. At that point, I was headed Eastward intending to complete a circuit around the globe but my plan was interrupted by a lack of funds which is why I applied for the grant. I came home and it is very strange to be back but overall, it’s pretty nice!
Now I need to step back a little from Burn.
Hugs to all.
Jenny xx
You asked about my point of view. I am a spiritual person and see everything – including ourselves – connected with Earth. My point of view on all war is much the same as the Dalai Lama’s – that it could always be avoided with more dialogue…
Re. The Time cover
It presents a statement and a conclusion without asking a question by way of text attached to a photograph. There is no question mark and no question presented so what we have is a straight-forward statement. It tells us that what is depicted in the image is what happens if we do something. If we do not wish what is in the picture to happen, we are told that we must adopt a certain course of action in order to prevent it. This ‘leading us’ is contrary to ‘free thinking’ which is what propaganda does…
LEE,
thanks for sharing your work! Most of the shots are “too wide” in my opinion, i.e. there is a lot of empty space around the subjects or the subjects are so spread around the frame that the final composition is weakened. For example, in image #29 I was caught by the posture of the two girls: unfortunately they are lost in a corner! Images #53, #72 (my favourite), and #80 stand over the others, imo.
Lee unfortunately there is not enough substance in the photographs …….people want to know and understand not just look.
Interesting take on too wide a shot. Will dwell on that. Hum. Don’t think I agree but will think on it. As I consider myself a photographer that catches folks in their environment and I like the surroundings…but always keep an open mind.
Imants, that is an interesting statement. Will think on that one too. Although I find lots of work I want to just look at and find interesting. But will mull that over too. That is why I posted. Maybe why I took so long to post.
Lee, it looks like you have made some nice new friends. I hope you don’t mind a few comments for what it’s worth. BTW, you made a small comment that you could not sneak a picture in a certain situation. I really hope you don’t try since even this body language would destroy the trust you’re building.
If I were doing this I would spend a lot of time with people but not always with camera in hand (but close) and switch to one fast prime lens in the area of 35 (full frame) or maybe slightly wider. Stay away from superwide. #60 (unsmiling would be better) and 73/82 are the strongest shots here for me.
So an initial edit of these is #1 (looks posed even if it isn’t and superwide), 14, 19 (need to step in, step back, casually move around, take advantage of reflected bright light sliding into shade … I know you are just over the threshold but something to think about), 30 (looking at camera unfortunate), 35, 49, 60, 80 (almost, better if camera turned to the left to balance and split action in the frame), 73/82.
Between Allard and Towell and many others since, the Anabaptists are a tough subject in which to break new ground. Towell is simply one of my favorites and the black and white work amazing. I believe Allard made his career with NatGeo as a young man on this subject when others failed. So, tough, and the question that would cause me much discomfort is, what can I bring to the table here?, as I believe you alluded to.
A fairly contemporary piece on Hutterites done well and in color in a PJ style is Jed Conklin’s newspaper work from 2006 (www.jedconklin.com under “essay” and “hutterites”). If I remember correctly, he spent months on this a little at a time between other assignments and got maybe three or four real keepers. Towell spent at least a decade. So two days with even one keeper is doing well but to put together an essay is going to take a lot of time and patience, and likely, a consistent feel and focal length.
I have no idea if this is helpful but it was meant to be :))
Hey Lee-
Some observations that come to mind. 1) Nobody should be able to guess how tall you are by your photographs. Seems like every shot is taken at eye level, same height, same perspective. 2) most of the images should be moments. Moments of connection between the subjects, moments of emotion, moments that capture who the subjects are. Right now, it looks like you are documenting their life, not showing us who they are. 3) Like others have said, the shots are too wide. You have to get closer. Abele was dead on about shot 29, 70 is interesting, but from too far away, 75 is an example of where you could have crouched down to be their level.
Just my 2¢
Jenny there is no such thing as “away from home”..
When I’m in Greece I miss LA(home).. When I’m in LA I miss NY..
When I’m in Venice I miss the big bear mountain.. When I’m on the mountain I miss the lake and on and on..
As bobus black once wrote:
Home is where your hat is..
There is no such thing as home if u connected to this Earth..
Earth is home..
Home exists only for the bourgeois..
Now for real please show us some photos..
Not to impress anyone but
just to SHARE..
show us some Love..
Share .. Photos..
This is the place to do it..
Big hug
All my respect to De Keyser..
But let’s see Jennys voice at last..
Authorship right?
We talked about it.. Let’s “walk” it then..
There no tomorrow..
Today is the right time..
Everything else is just FEAR..
you are a traveller right?
Then conquer your fears and share photos..
Obviously u have a lot to say..
How about tell it with your camera..
It’s a photographers blog after all;)
Right?
De Keyser is talking about a book..
We are not expecting a book from you
but PHOTOGRAPHS..
It would be very egotistical from my part..
if I talk about Venice every 5 minutes and not showing a single photo..do u think that everyone likes my work?
Of course not..but that’s all I got..
Show us what u got too.. It’s a matter of respect for this forum..
And remember hard critique comes with the terittory..
So come on.. We are ready, buckled up.. Waiting!
:)
Lee there is a difference between seeing and looking …………
Hey Lee, I enjoyed seeing your work. You have a fine eye for angles and I think #73 is exceptional. I think you’ve gotten some very good advice from the others, so I fear what I have to add may confuse the issue. Nevertheless, I’d like to see some closer shots; to get a feel for the texture of that simple life — of the wood grain, the corn, the horses’ hair, the peoples’ clothes, etc. Personally, and I know this goes against the general Burn ethos, I’d consider giving it a look from a 50 and maybe 85mm focal length, at least on occasion, to mix it up a bit, you know. And from an editing perspective, I think you would benefit by paring it down to maybe 15 photos or so. You’d probably learn more from that exercise than anything we can possibly tell you.
Lee unfortunately there is not enough substance in the photographs …….people want to know and understand not just look.
They also want some eye candy every now and then..:)
Eye candy though does not mean :
Impress me by all means necessary ..right?
Yes I am learning a lot. It is a very tough subject and I already see what you are all talking about. It is documenting life every day right now due to the inability to delve deeper. And I’m not sure how to approach the whole banned from their congregation aspect with photos. I think it is a work that may or may not continue. And there is already, as stated, some excellent work on the subject. I know one thing. New friends have been made that would not have if I had not followed that ad of land for sale.
And, I am going to give up my faithful lens and pick up a new one for a while. Thanks for the critique.
Eye candy. I immediately thought of breasts and I don’t think that will happen! LOL
So I did a demonstration shooting a band today for my class. The main thing I wanted them to get out of it is how I move my body, how I can stay in one place and work a shot but then with an economy and speed move to another angle, chimp rarely, and exude a certain confidence without getting in the way. And later at the end of class I (half) jokingly told them the main thing I wanted them to get out of watching me work was “1) bend your knees, 2) bend your knees, 3) bend your knees…” (they laughed).
:o) charles..
.. bend dem knees and ‘av it….
‘av it LAAAAARGE muckers…
good morning oslo aiport..
17th hour..
3 to go..
then dusseldorf..
then stuttgart..
then The Drive.
‘sall gone techno
or one for the jungalists
or for the memories
and one for Pa-Pa-Panos..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UR0AfZoWVFk
“Yin for yang I walk on a line
Between ghetto slang and stimulation of the mind
Life is a labyrinth for dollars and cents
As I quest for cream, through the steam so dense
From the sensimilia puff, cause the tunnel is tough
Some lick shots with sound, some’ll bust from the cannon
Experts original man’ll examine
I am in fact lacking con-fus-ion, as to what’s real
and what’s illus-ion
POW
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPETJjU-YKE
for HARVEY
Davidddddddddddddddddddddddddd!
You still at the airport?????????????
with the $16 beer?
big hug to you..sweet skyping you this morning..time for me to change another flat tire..
Not a Bentley this time but a Kia Rio…
right testi ok!
Thanks to all who looked at my series on the Mennonites and gave such good responses. My eyes are opened about wide angle. I can see it perfectly now.
LEE,
I’m stuck on slow dial-up at the momemt so I only saw pictures 1 through 36 so far of your slides… but a few reactions…
What I see is that you are just getting the feel of the environment you’re in and the people in it, but not really into picture-making yet… looks like you are ‘warming up’ and shooting very tentatively which is something I often need to do when I haven’t taken pictures steadily for a while… I see what others are saying about the need to get in closer, but I don’t think you necessarily need to change lenses to do it… although that might help a bit in some situations. I sympathize with your bias towards shooting a bit wide and tryting to take in the whole environment, but Panos and some others are right, you need ‘moments’, and the moments come from people and animals interacting, and if you get that, the environment will take care of iteself. In some of the shots I can see the potential for a ‘moment’ to emerge, but you’re either not waiting long enough for it or not dancing close enough to the participants yourself to be in the vantage point when the moment occurs… in shots #1,4,7,14, and 18 I can see how they might be developing towards a moment but it hasn’t happened yet… #33 and 34 are getting warmer… only #20 actually looks like a moment that has come together to me, and here your vantage point could be just a little better (and the slightly longer lens might have helped).
I think there is all kinds of potential for great shots in the situation and the topic… and I realize the difficulties of insinuating yourself and feeling free to shoot, but keep at it, look for interactions between people, gestures, telling glances… don’t get hung up on static compositions or trying to show the overall environment, believe me if you get the ‘moments’, those things will also be there…
Good luck with this topic… you’ll probably learn a lot!
Lee, if you’ve learned , and made friends along the way, then you can consider this a successful use of your time and efforts. Congrats
TO BURN’S NITE SHIFT:
you know who you are… been doing a lot of this lately.
I just wanted to say I’m feeling the Burnians’ love and/or vodka tonight…
Thank you to Lee for posting her Mennonite rough draft here, and thank you to all of the Burnians offering constructive criticism to her… I always learn so much here :-) I consider myself a civilian (for now), but hope one day to have the substance & courage to post some work-in-progress here (as Lee as)…
Good night, all :-)
PICK A WINNER.
Regarding the earlier talk about contact sheets etc.. I thought id stick these up here.Shot last weekend under really bad light, hence the (frankly crap) use of flash.
The question is..Which one is ‘the shot’ to use….or are any of them useable.
They are just rough work ups from scans at the moment and NOT prints…only 1 will get printed (probably)
http://www.flickr.com/photos/29165128@N03/sets/72157624589858673/show/
Lee, one thing to ask yourself if you keep working on the project might be what do you want to achieve with it. And why. And for whom. Ok, so that’s actually more than one question, but I guess it’s all tied together.
When working with a group of people where trust is fundamental it’s a matter of respect to them and yourself to ask and answer these questions, or better, to me it is, it’s the way I go (doesn’t mean others have to of course). To have clear the intentions. It also helps (me at least) to focus on what I want to get, where I want to go.. something that might change with time, evolve, it’s not a static thing.
Hi Lee.
Some nice images there. Not easy catching moments if there may not be a lot happening. I mean if its a quiet environment that may not be so busy. So reading Sidney’s advice sounds like a good thing to think about more. I think getting familiar with an environment, with a group of people is the key. Not easy as it takes time. I’ve seen some of the most expressive telling images in family albums for example. I haven’t read all your text so excuse me if I’m repeating you or others. I would say, stick with this family as you seem to have there trust, and more interaction will show up.
John, if then nr. 4.. depends on the use though..
It is the strangest feeling, and no vodka, the joy I feel knowing about this series. And to not be discouraged or angry or snappish. Because I knew something was wrong with them. Just couldn’t put my finger on it.
While on the mainland this last time I did a series on my landlady’s garden. A few were stunning and are hanging on my wall (or will be when back from the framers). The point of this tale is the woman was always making comments about how she wasn’t any good at anything. When I put the photos of her flowers and garden in a book here is what she wrote to me:
Oh Dear Lee,
My book arrived today in the mail. I have tears in my eyes as I go through it. I never thought that anything I ever did on a daily basis could turn out to be so beautiful. It’s breath-taking. I am so proud of this book. You are a wonder – not just as a photographer, but in all the things you do. The captions with the pictures describe in words what the pictures mean. Thank you so so much. Michael hasn’t seen it yet. Wait until he gets home. It’s just so wonderful….Holly
When I can give a gift like this to someone I am happy. That is what life is for.
Love, light, color and mood.
Lee
A few times now the comments have veered towards keeping their trust and not damaging my relationship with them. When I first arrived at their home it was in answer to an ad for 75 acres of land in a Mennonite community. I admit that i had ulterior motives of shooting something I had never seen before I went to see the property. The father knew as soon as I got out of my black charger with my blonde hair and black leather jacket that I wasn’t going to be able to manage a property like that. He still showed me the place. Then through the course of our talk he shared he had been banned from his community and was having to move his family. The things he told me about the pressure from the elders to sell his property for almost nothing to the community, etc. brought back a lot of memories of my leaving the church I grew up in and my mother and sister cutting me off for good. I wanted to show all that somehow but still not sure how that story could be shot. They are open but not that open. So will see.
My relationship with them has expanded to quite a lovely level and when it comes down to it if I had to choose shooting them or keeping them as friends, friends would win. I have had thoughts since posting this that maybe the series will end now but something tells me there is more in the future.
Now I am concentrating on a new lens to take to the pow wow in a couple weeks. I will take all I have learned there with me.
Jenny:
“I don’t want to discuss it too much because we don’t see eye to eye on it.”
“My point of view on all war is much the same as the Dalai Lama’s – that it could always be avoided with more dialogue…”
Isn’t there a discrepancy in your thinking?
I must have missed the link to your day in Nepal work, could you please repost it? I’d appreciate, thanks!
Charles, sounds like you are having a really good time with these kids. That is a lesson I learned today too, bend your knees!
Eva, since you might still be around I have wanted to ask you about the chicken photo you posted to Civi one day. I love that photo. Can we see other like it? Don’t even know if it was yours or you found it somewhere. It was a person pushing a wheelbarrow with slaughtered chickens in it and others laying around on the floor.
Lee, it’s mine, thanks, more chicken to be found here, clicking through:
http://www.slowemotion.it/fedora/01.htm
Need to go through my negs again on this, and edit..
John G,
i think you can work a good print out of #1 (even if there is a shadow that makes the skull in the background not so readable); #3 is probably the best… in #4 I don’t like the guy staring directly in the lens while she is turning away
ALL
I’ve just written a first post in a series about how I go about setting up my ARCHIVE…
http://www.antonkusters.com/2010/08/08/my-photo-archive-system-an-introduction/
It’s kind of a tech article but, come to think of it, actually it’s not (no brands mentioned and such). Because I think it’s too important a subject not to tackle… Our archive is all us photographers have, and is the most important thing for any photographer’s future, present and past…
I’d love to get a discussion going on this one… How does everyone here approach their archive?
Security? Digital? Analog? Off-site backups? Controlled accessibility? Acid-free boxes with prints in a fireproof cabinet? Negative vaults? Photoshelter? Amazon S3?
It’s very interesting topic in my opinion… It took me a month to figure out an (abstract) description of what I personally want to achieve with an archive, and then it took me another month to devise a system from that concept…
what do you think?
hugs,
a
OH AND
I’ll join in on the contact sheets… here’s some recent YAKUZA contacts:
http://www.antonkusters.com/2010/08/07/contact-sheets-a-sample/
(FYI the second sheet is NOT from some kind of high speed 7 million frames-per-second camera…)
sorry for hijakcing the thread :-)
hugs,
a
Eva, great series! When I saw the old guy in the bed I thought, “Oh no.” With so much dying happening I instantly thought he was next. I have never seen photos of dead chickens with their heads still on. The one shot I thought they were using that bar to hold its head in place and they just pulled the body off the neck.
Talk about living off the land. Who are these characters? Where do they live? How did you find them?
Thanks for sharing. You have an incredible eye.
John…
Even though her expression is better in #4, I would choose #2 out of those frames…
EVA. Nice stuff in there. clean too. are you familiar with Jindrich streits work?
ANTON. negs lying all over the house, in and out of sleeves. Piles of binders stacked up in the darkroom…..on the floor :(
Random piles of archive scan cd’s….lying around wherever they end up.
A pile of hard drives full of digital stuff and scan workups for the web.(about 4 terrabytes give or take)
If I lost it all tommorow it would be a huge pain…but a good reason to change direction and shoot a whole bunch more.
I guess that part of it comes down to intent really (and how anal you are also :) ) If you are looking to build an archive that parallels a career, then I guess its only sensible to take precautions to safeguard that. Also if you live mainly on the income from the work then it is probably very important to look after what is essentially your income. But if its just a bunch of pictures, then its just a bunch of pictures.
this solution op and running will need an initial investment of max $5,ooo (hardware, software, online storage), and 6 months of work …………. too hard basket for me.
My new system is put a book together archive the images three time print the book the rest doesn’t matter
John..i go number 4
JOHN G
makes sense… i guess the level of protection is inversely related to the bad feeling one would get if losing it all… :-)
by the way, I’d go for #3 of your contact sheet… #1 is most prob the most workable technically, but the way they look & atmosphere in #3 for me is best
cheers,
a
hey imants… your system might just not be so much different from mine :-) the very last step in my chain is still, and always will be, an archive quality original master (inkjet or darkroom) print… plus whatever publication (book magazine…) i can afford..
I print atleast one archive quality book ……. but before that and archiving the images dogitally it is a dog’s breakfast
dogitally new word meaning digital, like that mongrel breed ( Dad’s been all over the place)…… Mongrel dogs are less prone to viruses
ANTON
Please continue to hijack the thread! I fully understand ‘the mess’ and to read what others are doing re. archiving would be very helpful. Thank you so much! : )
This is neat. the contact sheet experiment is already working.
4 pictures, all the same, yet all slightly diferent.( and all lacking in some respect as well) everybody likes a particular one, for their own particular reason…there is no real right or wrong, and taking advice, even from the best eyes, will only give you ‘their’ experience of it. Which one is the one?…..well obviously its the one I choose. And normally no-one would ever see the rest of the contact sheet. Nice as a bit of fun, but a danger of the ‘decision by committee’ route.
Talking about contact sheets, here are two of the more successful ones from my Nicosia project…
http://www.tzalavras.com/Random_pics/IMG_8806.JPG
http://www.tzalavras.com/Random_pics/IMG_8817.JPG
Lee, thanks, the thing needs to be overworked and edited down, and is in progress.. the ‘guy’ (Ottavio) is fine.. it’s my backyard, 10 minutes walk downhill from where I live, and as almost all my stuff, it’s family-friends-families of friends-friends of family related. Took me two years of begging to go out with Fedora, taking pics of the chicken.. and none at all for the rest of it, which was quite a surprise..
John, thanks too, and no, am not familiar with Jindrich Streit, from the look of it I need a new book, thanks!
Anton, I have my negs in binders and prints and contact sheets in boxes, down in the darkroom (plus a little bit of it all over the place there), not fire or waterproof.. loosing the negatives would cause me a severe hysteria attack, but wouldn’t be a loss for anyone else.
Eva…
You’ve got some excellent pictures in the link you posted!!
http://www.jindrichstreit.cz/ Jindrich Streit
John G., I agree that something is lacking in all of them, but that sometimes happens, eh. Personally, I’d go with #1 for the shadows, particularly on the guy’s face. At least it makes you look deeper into the photo whereas the others are apparent on the surface. Of the more amply lighted ones, I thought #3 works best since it casts the woman in the best light.
Lee, wow, you’ve certainly gotten a lot of good advice which is probably a huge muddle when you add it all up. After having slept on it, I’ll change, or at least modify, mine. Rather than worry about a lens, I’d consider spending whatever time it takes to learn everything about the Mennonite way of life in order to recognize symbols and metaphors. The story there isn’t “look ma, Mennonites!.” The story is “Banned from the Community.” And in our collective unconscious, there are few more powerful stories than that.
Lee Guthrie,
I just looked at your picasa gallery and… you know my dearest… you are young, ambitious and strong but… sorry, there are almost no pictures, just snapshots… seems you have overplayed with snapping away approach… don’t snap away… remember to look for peak moments, compositions, wait for better light and shadows… I actually insist you to drop that wide angle lens, at least for a while… wide angle lenses are going out of fashion even in photojournalism these days:))… step back a bit baby, and start shooting somewhere in normal, short tele 50mm – 85mm range, and try to use careful and thoughtful approach, previsualize… it will actually give you not only aesthetically more pleasing images but also bring you closer the story… and your subject will appreciate that as well… Best wishes
LEE
I love spending time in communities based on principles of peace and non-voilence! I liked the Golden Temple in Amritsar – the people felt like family even though we did not speak the same language. I hope you’ll spend much more time with this family as they transform their environment back to how they see ‘it should be’ – to fit in with the principles. I’d love to see how they do it! I bet it would turn out to be mutually beneficial! : )
John…
Thanks for mentioning Jindrich Streit… didn’t know of him… what an amazing photographer…
Jindrich Streit, found a book ‘Der Hof’ on amazon.de, there are another couple out there, amazon.uk.co or .com, but not for my pockets..
Thodoris, thanks.. and also for posting the contact sheets, I love to look at them and the evolvings from them..
EVA
I see the ideas you gave to Lee in how you approached your subjects – they feel like family to me. Bravo indeed! I’m feeling sorry for the chicken/s!
Here’s the link to the day I mentioned:
http://jennylynnwalker.photoshelter.com/gallery/At-a-Temple-in-the-Terai/G0000.vwuoDgp76A/
EVA
PS Really sorry they’re difficult to view because I cant figure out how to get the automatically-generated copyright symbols off. I will get in contact with Photoshelter today. Sorry bout that…
LEE…
good for you on getting in with this Mennonite family…or, at least starting to do so…the novelty will wear off quickly on both sides, so you will just have to wait and see if there is going to be enough for you beyond this initial “rush”….
i am sure you are aware of the now classic work by Towell (Mennonite) and Allard (Amish) , but you might just want to reference them again…from the Burn crowd, Kurt Lengfield and Pete Marovich have done masterful works on Mennonites…i think Pete will be published here soon…so you will indeed have a mountain to climb to get up and beyond what has gone before…always always the challenge for anyone who is attempting an essay on any one of the classic American cultural subjects as are Mennonites, Amish, and Hutterites…despite their outward and initial reticence to being photographed, they have been photographed a lot…i am sure you know this…
regarding the editing, i do not think it is at this stage about taking things out, but about establishing a level for pictures which should go “in”…you might be thinking backwards to think of it at this point as to what should come “out”…i think i have told you before to establish a “level” and then build out…once you have this level, then you can add pictures which either come up to that level or go beyond it…if they do not, then just do not put them in…getting a 15-20 picture essay out of a story like this will take some time…
by your own words you have said this is just a warm up , a beginning…and indeed i think this is right….i would keep #45 and build out from there…this is a very nice picture conjuring up a sense of place and a bit of mystery and just a nice feeling to it…..the rest seem to be more about the “process” of their lives rather than capturing any personality or universal moment…you have: a, b, c,d….they cook, they work, they work horses, they ride a train, etc etc and would any of it be interesting if they did not look different in style and in clothing and have really cool wood stoves?? this is the tough part of a story like this….are you dependent on their “look” or can you go beyond?
another way you might want to think about this is by photographing them minus as much technology as you can…you go minimalist as are they…you go one normal lens and ideally with wet plates or at least large format film where you will have to be very deliberate and craft like…as are they….you can study wet plate colloidal silver photography from a man back in the Virginia woods (taught Sally) and be very near where many Mennonites live (name available if you get serious on this)…this is for sure a whole life undertaking, so i am not sure this is where you are…but just a thought…you could also go somewhere in between with medium format, or b&w, or Holga or shoot all by candle light or something that would seem a bit more appropriate to this subject..of course even as i write this , my thoughts sound almost too too cliche or obvious…and that is the potential problem with this project overall…getting beyond the obvious will be a challenge…
anyway, i know you are just thinking and sketching….have fun with this part…and i know the people are simply fantastic….enjoy them….and see how you feel in a few weeks about moving it all forward…
many thanks for posting your “contact sheets”…much appreciated by all….
cheers, david
Jenny, thanks for the link, no worries for the watermarks..
Dear David,
Thanks once again for sharing your thoughts with us… your insight into recent Lee’s project is worth a lot of money, especially for those who are ready to really understand what you meant… Cheers
JENNY…
Temple in Terai ….very nice…fog really worked for you, but you also took advantage of it and good use of light in general…overall, far and away the best work i have seen from you…mood, texture, and feeling all on it…i did not have time to really think edit on this because i now must go shoot…however, already seems pretty close to right….many thanks for posting some pictures…good…
cheers, david
Jenny.
Yes, I agree with David, the pictures are really good and I like how you tie it in to our excesses of slaughter at christmas without labouring the point, works very well for me. well done!
hey Dave , Did you get to take a look at the new link to Shrine I sent you?
GLENN…
just viewed…public critique, private? first thing you gotta do is drop Johann Pachelbel canon in d major soundtrack….most overused track of all time…let me know…
cheers, david
Might be a bit late for dropping Johann …It’s playing in a loop with another similar tale at my exhibition for the next 2 weeks. but any feed back would be welcome.
Eva.
Fantastic, down to earth, chewy pictures, love them.
Panos: I shared the same link to the same day’s photographs a month ago. I am sorry if you missed it.
EVA..
missed your link and cannot find it…post again? or to my email? thanks
JENNY…
i guess i too missed your link if you posted prior…sorry… i can easily get way way behind here
cheers, david
Hey, it looks like I’m about to do my long put off website update (this time for reals). I’d like to do a Flash free version so that it will work quickly on all operating systems. Yet I can’t help noticing that virtually all photographer’s websites are very slick and “Flashy.” So my question to you, esteemed Burnians, is “does it really matter?” Will editors ignore a simply constructed site? Or will content win out? And by “simple” I don’t mean poorly designed, just lacking fancy underlying web technologies.
I’ve looked around for web-building software and the best one I can find turned out to be Shutterbug, which, happily, I already own but had abandoned for SlideShowPro and its “Flashy” features. This is an example of a photo site built with Shutterbug. I can design it to look however I want, but you can see the basic functionality and navigation. What do you think? If you imagine it with a decent design (and photos, obviously), would that kind of thing fly with editors?
And does anyone have any better recommendations? Note that I’m not going to pay any kind of subscription, so anything like PhotoShelter is out. Thanks.
David:
http://www.slowemotion.it/fedora/01.htm
Lee was curious about a chicken pic.. and yes, I know, less ABC, less pictures.. curious what else you’ll find.. shooting my backyard, as always..
Vicky, thanks.. chewy?
DAVID ALAN HARVEY
Thanks a million for your comment. Those pictures and many more as well as video clips were taken on that day but it is not what I would like to be published on Burn if that was the thought behind helping to edit it. It is very, very kind of you to offer to look at it though. Much appreciated.
You mentioned ‘novelty value’ wearing off… I think it depends on how you look at it… I think everything that exists holds interest to the curious-minded whether it be a grain of sand on the beach or a leaf on a tree where you live, or the way a woman throws the veil across her shoulder just as she has done a million times before, out of habit, walking down the street in a city on the other side of the world… it depends on how you look at… the moment…
Michael, don’t know how much space you need, up to I can’t remember how much photoshelter is free..
eva.
chewy, lots to get your teeth into, not just a surface glance.
Vicky, thanks, clear now.. didn’t make the association.. learnt something, tx..
No Photoshelter. No outside service, unless you know of one that will pay me :?
The question is really more about editors and if they’ll even look at non-flashy sites.
MW, PDN have an article posted about website design and what editors etc are looking for:
http://www.pdnonline.com/pdn/content_display/features/pdn-online/e3ie16e8b7507e085a95bc3182c0bf057e4
basically they say keep it simple, no music, don’t use Flash (Iphones and Ipads can’t (won’t) accommodate Flash and it may-well be losing favour as more devices move to touch-screen), only show your best work, make it easy to navigate etc. and let the pictures do the talking. Just follow the link.
Best, Mike.
JENNY…
i was not thinking of editing for any particular purpose…when i see a group of pictures, i tend to automatically think of editing…in the case of this work, it looks as though you have it down pretty tight…
yes, i agree on “novelty” as you describe it…that is a given..i was referring to something else…what i was talking about with Lee was that the novelty of her “being there” with this family would wear off and she would have to settle in on a different level…novelty of “photographer in the house” always wears off and you have to work hard to maintain the ability to shoot as was possible in the beginning..yes, access can get better as time goes on, but everyone who does this work knows, access can also lessen when folks start tripping over the photographer on the way to the bathroom……and the novelty of the Mennonite differences might also wear off from Lee end as well…again, as you say, it all depends….the novelty of photography has never worn off for me, so i do subscribe to the “forever enthusiastic” theory whenever possible…i was just trying to make a practical suggestion for Lee…
EVA…
again, essays or picture sequences as you are trying to do here are difficult..not as in hard to do, but as in hard to make interesting…
this one unfortunately falls into the “day in the life of” category…everyone does a “story” like this in their photographic life, but generally evolve away from it….the problem is , there is rarely an actual visual story…this is a sequence of pictures of someone who is interesting to you for sure, but maybe not compelling enough for an essay…one strong portrait might do it…i think the thing you have to ask yourself is “why?”
sequences of a “day in the life” of someone generally fall flat..as in the a, b, c, d example i gave to Lee…there are exceptions of course like Gene Smith’s “Country Doctor”, but they are rare…
when shooting the one strong portrait i am suggesting, you might go about getting the portrait in the very way you are shooting…that is the way i work too..the difference is that even though i am shooting a sequence, i edit for only one picture…anyway, something to think about…
cheers, david
John G, photo number 3 presents them at their best. Number 2 may show them in reality but only you will know.
Anton, do you want the discussion about our Archive here or on your website? Good post.
Mike.
JOHN GLADDY…
any one of these is ok, but none of them represent your best work…cool characters…re-shoot
mw,
I manage my site in LR with LRB Exhibition http://lightroom-blog.com/2010/02/lrb-exhibition.html
full SEO . No flash. It’s 15euros, you just have to have webhosting. The other is LRB Portfolio
which is similar.
VICKY
I’m just getting to know you on here and am now thinking about your work. You sound so down to earth and ‘present’. Do you see yourself in your pinhole work? I can’t see you in it as it looks ethereal, but I do see you in your portraits of other people. Are you a spiritual person?
MIKE R…ANTON
shouldn’t you keep the discussion here, since you started it here? and re-post the chat on your site? the care and feeding of an archive is so so important…i mean, we can start it all over again later if you want..just a thought
mw — You had asked about other website options.
http://cargocollective.com/ has some very nice, simple and free templates.
I know you said you were not willing to pay a subscription but http://arlosites.com/ is only $100 per year and their templates support video as well. Perhaps it is worth a look.
All the best,
Adam
David:
yes, thanks, makes sense, it’s definitely too much ABC, must get away from this, not specifically with those pics, but in general, knowing it is one thing, doing it is.. well.. just the next step, no excuses..
ANTON,
Phew… yes lets find out more! I feel so useless as far as digital org (and analog) though many of my peers come by the studio (now in the basement of our house) and comment on how organized I am compared to themI So it is a big concern and everybody needs to wrap their heads around it sooner or later (maybe even Imants!).
I use a bank of hard drives like this: http://firmtek.com/seritek/seritek-5pm/. After lots of research it seemed the best for the buck and is really well built. I have two of the drives as mirrors for my RAW archive, and two as mirrors for my scanned and other work. And one drive for swapping out to take work offsite etc. I also have two RAID 1 drives in my desktop I call “working” where I move all of my RAWS for use with Lightroom so I’m never touching my RAWS once they go on the mirrored archive.
I think my real problem is folder naming, file naming, etc. I’ve never really settled on one convention so accessing my work (esp scans) usually involve long sessions with coverflow.
Someday for my negs I will get a fire/water proof cabinet but they are expensive and heavy! For now they reside in archival plastic sleeves in archival boxes loosely labeled by subject or place. can be a slog to find a particular image, esp if I’ve been pulling aside sleeves for editing down for a larger project. Since I’m in the basement I also invested in an industrial quality dehumidifier.
Printing I don’t nearly do enough of anymore now that my darkroom days are over. Must find time, must find time, must find….
Thanks for reminding us of this important task in our lives.
Charles
MIKE R, DAVID…
yes here is best… that’s why I posted the question here…
cheers
a
for me Archiving is super easy…
Numerous hard drives, wrapped inside my underwear for ultimate protection ..all of them called venice 1, 2..etc..and all the folders inside of them are venice1, 2,…etc…
;)))))
dont worry y’all..think Buddha…dont hold on so tight on your valuable possessions…loosen up..
who cares if u lose some photos here and there…even if u lose them all..the world will still spin even without your masterful photos…
laughing…dont worry..the 3rd World War is Not Coming..and even if it does , it Will Be Televised,
so u dont miss it..
:)
Jenny dont be sorry..
i also missed a few payments here and there…
:)
i think that David goes for the photo number 5 was well expected ;)
Are you a spiritual person?
——————————
Jenny this is as personal of question as asking a man what size a penis he has..
what do u expect to get as an answer? Tiny?
Huge hug!
EVA…
you ALWAYS have the best attitude..as usual, as in all things, about 90% of going from point A to point B must be attitude….in any case, i know i owe you an edit on Palio…we can do it by skype…maybe early next week?? i cannot promise, but let’s give it at least a thought….i am in the middle of shooting and sometimes i have several hours as i did this morning, and sometimes not..will do my best
CHARLES
yeah the file naming is the hardest part… the trick is to keep file naming indepedent from the structure it is in (i.e. folder naming), so you can search easier in the long run, and you can identify an individual file which is someplace else more easily.
I’d go for something like this:
for originals:
antonkusters_ORIG_20101217_L00000001.dng
or
antonkusters_image-title_ORIG_20101217_L00000001.dng
(name_imagetitle_type_shootdate_serial.extension)
for masters:
antonkusters_image-title_MASTER-TYPE_20101217_L00000001.psd
for versions:
antonkusters_###_image-title_image-size_20101217_L00000001.tif
or
antonkusters_###_image-title_publication-name_20101217_L00000001.tif
or
antonkusters_###_image-title_story-name_20101217_L00000001.tif
or…
don’t know about the order of the different parts yet though!
I am still looking into allowed length of characters, but that is rapidly becoming less and less of an issue as far as I can see up till now.
a
Anton
Check out this post,and accompanying video, on archiving if you haven’t already.
http://blog.chasejarvis.com/blog/2010/06/workflow-and-backup-for-photo-video/
Obviously, he’s working and producing on a scale most aren’t but there are good bits that
can be scaled to archives of all sizes.
Personally, i have a very hands-on drop and drag approach for my own archive.
As,primarily, a stock photographer, I don’t have any deadlines, per se, so my archive is sort of set
up chronologically with new material being edited,and added, at the end of each month.
After the monthly edit,all content is brought into PhotoMechanic where I apply basic caption
and keyword metadata.
From this set I make two hard drive master copies and two separate DVD copies-total of 4 with
one set of drives and one set of dvd’s stored offsite.
Labor intensive and probably over-redundant but I have been burnt before and won’t risk RAWs
moving forward.
Unlike Panos, I don’t think Buddha. The world will certainly go on without my images but I still
have a soft spot for a lot of what I do and wouldn’t want to deprive myself of that pleasure.
Imants, what is an ‘archival quality’ book ?
Mark
in all seriousness..time frame and date sequence is the only way that works for me..date and place..simplistic?
good!
MTOMALTY
wow good find!
and also good news…. with just a few differences Chase Jarvis is doing quite the same… nice to know that a seasoned pro comes to the same conclusions…
my approach is a little different in the following ways:
– I don’t archive during a shoot (i have to travel way to light for that)… but i do have a local “base station”
– the EDIT archive is much more important to me, up to the point that it becomes equal to the DEF archive (the archive with all the raw files in it), because the image “by itself” is not the only end goal for me, it’s also, equally important, the products that I make with my images/footage/texts… e.g. my magazine or my poster or my movie, etc…
Chase delivers his images and then is basically “done”. It seems to me he is generally not involved in creating the next step (correct me if I’m wrong!)
a
David:
please don’t worry, you finish your shooting and maybe take time off to just SIT and do nothing, or something for yourself, if you even know what that is!.. I’ll catch you whenever, no rush..
DAVID ALAN HARVEY
Thank you for explaining and apologies for cutting into your time. Gene Smith’s ‘Country Doctor’ is still one of my favourite essays. I’d love to try to do something similar with a local, country doctor in Sub-Saharan Africa one day…
ANTON
Just to echo Charles’ thank you for helping us with this important task. It is making me dizzy – the file naming. Is ‘image title’ just a short name/word that you use to recall that particular image by?
MARK
Thanks for the link. Can I ask why you like PhotoMechanic – it that any easier than Photoshop to enter the data/captions by batch command?
PANOS
Please, please back-up everything carefully. I have already learned the hard way. I can still see many of the images I lost too – akin to ‘a day in the life of’ story but with elephants (and their support team)! When it comes to photographs and moments you can never get back, it IS heartbreaking to loose them. I hope I will have the opportunity to do that day again, when I next come across an elephant maybe… I can’t see that happening any time soon. : (
Jenny.
Am I a spiritual person?
I’m not really sure what that means but I’m thinking probably not, in that I’d never describe myself that way.
I more of an optimistic realist…I see the good in people but enjoy the worst.
Jenny I know but my “amazing lifestyle”
doesn’t permit to me to have a permanent desk
not even enough protection for my hard drives..
Wish I could afford some storage place..
So now here is the question that applied to folks like me..
Is there any cheap faraway from me servers that I can store things?
How much could that cost?… I mean think of something like mobile me- apple storage.. But something PRO that in case someone steal my backpack..
I could still access all files somewhere faraway but safely stored through the net???
I just want to upload all my crap somewhere and not worry about getting mugged around Venice or skidrow..
Big hug
Jenny
I’m using PhotoMechanic because I always have :>))
When I started shooting digitally many years ago it was almost impossible to get metadata
written to Raw files so that it was readable by Extensis Portfolio, the cataloguing software
I was using.
I’m starting to get comfortable with Adobe Lightroom and once I become ‘fluent’ enough I can’t see
why I wouldn’t do away with PhotoMechanic for my bulk captioning/keywording needs.
Mark
Panos,
Have you ever looked into Photoshelter ?
http://www.photoshelter.com/plans
The Standard and Basic packages aren’t too pricy and provide a decent amount of storage capacity
for the price
PANOS
I love you! Yes, where to upload the work where you feel it is safe? That is a good question. I think the only answer is your own website dont you? My life is no longer ‘amazing’ if ever it was and for the people who work with elephants every day, the work is immensely boring, laborous, slow, hard and dirty.
VICKY
Interesting. Thanks a lot. Here’s a definition of spiritual, I’d go along with:
Spirituality can refer to an ultimate or immaterial reality;[1] an inner path enabling a person to discover the essence of their being; or the “deepest values and meanings by which people live.”[2] Spiritual practices often lead to an experience of connectedness with a larger reality, yielding a more comprehensive self; with other individuals or the human community; with nature or the cosmos; or with the divine realm.[3] Spirituality can encompass belief in immaterial realities or experiences of the immanent or transcendent nature of the world.
Is Burn ‘a divine realm’?!
Panos:
http://hosting.aruba.it/offerte/LISTINO.asp?Lang=EN
Unlimited webspace, mail and more, for 25 € a year..
Eva, great work on your site, I’m a fan. :))
Ok.. Maybe I wasn’t clear..
I’m talking about a terra full of dngs.. Not email etc..
Just a virtual hard drive as far far away from me as possible..
1T full of DNG’s that can access at any wifi place with a cheap laptop would make me gha happiest malaka on earth.
Gracias mark, eva, jenny et all..
PANOS
Photoshelter IS fantastic, convenient, economical, easy to use and the support staff are great. But a personal website may be safer? What is wrong with Picassa is that what you currently use?
Panos, you know how to use ftp, do you? Just get your domain, access your domain via ftp, make folders or drop folders on the server, and you can access them from everywhere, all you need is a connection and an ftp program.. and your password.. aruba.it is by far the cheapest I know of with unlimited webspace..
Tom, thanks, but I’m in great need of an overhaul and a severe edit..
Panos, you might want to try Dropbox. Cheaper storage than PhotoShelter, but still not a full TB (max 100GB per account). I haven’t tried it yet, but they have a free 2GB account I keep meaning to try.
I read on his blog that Stephen Alvarez uses it: http://www.picturestoryblog.com/2010/05/preparing-paris-presentation.html You might drop him a line for info on his workflow…
Panos
This came up early in a search. The volume and the price seem right but don’t know anything
more about the service that a quick glance or if there are any hidden surprises.
Free is rarely ‘free’
http://www.techmixer.com/free-1-terabyte-online-storage-space-from-oosah/
Thanks DAH. Imagine that I have a Rolleiflex that I shot one series of them with. Two of the shots were in the juried Art Maui. However, most of the shots were not very good as I was a novice to the Rollei. I had almost decided to give up working on the Rollei but now I am inspired. The dark room is now FINALLY back up and working (the enlarger was down for so long) and I have the film. In fact, I think I will pull the negs out from that shoot and just make sure. I only have the contacts from the film I had a lab develop due to my lack of equipment at the time and verify they are not good.
MW, I am working on the same issue. You know what I have decided? It isn’t about the style of the damn page it is all about how the photos look. I want the photos to look as good as they do when I make a print and that is difficult with the upload size capacity of most sites like have been mentioned. A friend of mine who is an artist, Spar Street, has a fabulous page but it costs lots of money to design. But look at the quality of it. http://www.sparstreet.com/HTML/animals.html BTW, on this link lower right hand corner click on horse and see the painting he did for me (blue and red horses running through water).
EVA
Is there a link to your site on here?
MIKE
Thanks for your advice. I’m trying to do it in Photoshop and getting in a pickle.
Lee
Livebooks has a pretty good deal if you can be satisfied with the layout and color
scheme of one of their pre-designed templates
http://sites.livebooks.com/site-chooser/
Don’t know if $1000 constitutes expensive but I like what Rob Haggart has
done with his templates- http://www.aphotofolio.com
Both Livebooke and Aphotofolio are flash-based but each have shadow html sites as well as
ipad and iphone compatability
DAH, with regard to the EPF grant, I do keep running into a problem with the word emerging (I know, groan, not again!) as the finalists have been from just about every level of “expertise”.
I realize that you get hit from both sides on this matter.
In the case of Dima Gavrysh the question is asked of how, after having his work published in Time, Stern etc. is he “emerging”?
Your reply is “I do use “emerging” totally in the context of emerging to the highest planes of publication , exhibition, etc…Dima himself has defined it pretty well, and i would only add that Dima also has no established representation, nor major books, nor exhibitions etc nor name recognition that would in the minds of most publishers, editors, curators, or other photographers put him outside the “emerging” category…so he is a minimally published photographer but clearly an emerging photographer imo….but, he is very close to a “breakout” and soon will be no longer “emerging” i must clearly add….again, others may have a different definition and those with a different sense of it should obviously apply for different grants, awards, contests, etc…i can send you a list of potentially appropriate contests etc for photographers who are just starting out….” Good response and I agree with you.
Then we have Jukka Onnela and you say ““I have no idea what will happen to Jukka or whether or not he only has this one story to tell…that is all we have ever seen from him….it will be interesting to see where he goes from here..” We have gone from “close to breakout” to perhaps only one story to tell.
Today we have the work of Alexander Mendelevich and, in response to marcin’s post you say “any reason why “school work” cannot be a finalist? after all , we are looking at new, young, and most often student photographers…”. Apologies for cutting short your comments but I’ve tried not to quote you out of context.
The EPF is a wonderful opportunity and you (and Anton and Michael C etc.) are congratulated for giving photographers a showcase for their work but (there’s always a “but, right?) it seems a little haphazard in terms of who it is actually for and perhaps confusing for potential entrants. Perhaps a list of categories to enter would help? In any case, I’d drop “emerging”. Perhaps “breakout” would be better?
Serious post here David, no knives or sour grapes just hoping to provoke constructive discussion.
Best,
Mike.
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://toonz.ca/bose/wiki/images/thumb/c/ca/Smith_country_doctor_surgery_lgKenJacob.jpg/640px-Smith_country_doctor_surgery_lgKenJacob.jpg&imgrefurl=http://toonz.ca/bose/wiki/index.php%3Ftitle%3DJazz_Loft_Project&h=842&w=640&sz=143&tbnid=_i6whlGfEOQO0M:&tbnh=145&tbnw=110&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcountry%2Bdoctor&usg=__Tcnrd5GwDikgW0aET1eEBohKFVY=&sa=X&ei=sotlTNGsD5a6jAed7_DaCw&ved=0CDUQ9QEwBg
Sorry from Country Doctor:
http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://toonz.ca/bose/wiki/images/thumb/c/ca/Smith_country_doctor_surgery_lgKenJacob.jpg/640px-Smith_country_doctor_surgery_lgKenJacob.jpg&imgrefurl=http://toonz.ca/bose/wiki/index.php%3Ftitle%3DJazz_Loft_Project&h=842&w=640&sz=143&tbnid=_i6whlGfEOQO0M:&tbnh=145&tbnw=110&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcountry%2Bdoctor&usg=__Tcnrd5GwDikgW0aET1eEBohKFVY=&sa=X&ei=sotlTNGsD5a6jAed7_DaCw&ved=0CDUQ9QEwBg
I am happy that guy (already for got his name that talked about backup) showed he used GSafe cause that is my latest purchase for back up. I have lost a few drives and one of them took photos I really wanted because the DVD was even lost. I have been hearing about Carbonite and other sites that back up everything you do every day but that seems kind of scary for some reason. To have someone in faraway lala land always connected and checking your computer and updating every day. The info says it does photos everything.
Mine is download, name it whatever the event or day (which is perfect for me) and the file numbers stay the same. I always shoot RAW/jpeg and both are backed up as soon as I get home. I only shoot on 4G cards as that is how much a DVD holds. So DVD & G Safe back up drive. When I travel I take mini drives to back up and also burn DVD’s. Of course, DVD’s may one day be obsolete. sigh. And then the house they are stored in (mine) could disappear in some way and they would all be lost. Negs are so much easier. I have lost so many drives but so far only the one was “fatal”. In editing I create a folder for the finals of the same name as the original (Kids Furlough Friday Finals for example). All of the DVD’s are filed and in perfect little boxes I found at Office Max and made from recycled material. Fits perfect. Beyond that I have not gone except that I do make books of some of the work for reference. Not archival but good enough for reference.
DAH,
“MIKE R…ANTON
shouldn’t you keep the discussion here, since you started it here? and re-post the chat on your site? the care and feeding of an archive is so so important…i mean, we can start it all over again later if you want..just a thought”
Yes, I agree that the discussion should be here initially and then re-posted on Anton’s website (like your contact sheet on your site Anton). It would make for good debate. Over to you!
Mike.
All,
regarding backup and archiving strategy – I got a little shock to swallow.
I wanted to upgrade to Snow Leopard, but halfway it ran into an error. Tried to repair the volume, but did not work. Bought a new harddisk, same size. Installed Snow Leopard and try now to use the migration assistant (the volume is read-only, but readable)
When using tools like Aperture, Lightroom, or any other which uses a library, make sure you always archive your library, too. Otherwise you have all pictures but the rankings and adjustments maybe gone, unless you dump those pictures in your archive, too.
This was such a good discussion to wake up to. So much better. The links to the web site info is very helpful.
After some trial and error, I have come up with a file organization/back up strategy that works pretty well for me. May not work for others, but I dig it.
First, I have a two-disk RAID with two 1TB drives that I use as my primary drive for photos. The redundancy of the RAID has already paid for itself, as a couple months ago, I had a drive go bad. I just ordered a new 1TB drive, plopped it in, then let it rebuild. On the RAID, I have photos organized in folders and subfolders, each getting more specific as you venture further into the folder structure (ie RAID/Photos/Clients/Architecture/Client X/Location X/). That same folder structure appears in LR, making finding what I want easy. Of course keywording is still very important.
Second, I have a 2TB internal drive in an external hot swappable dock. This I use to make incremental backups of my photos, LR library and my OS X user library. The backups take place automatically every night at 3 am.
Third, When the RAID is starting to get filled up, I use the external drive dock to archive onto two separate 500GB drives named something like Archive1 and Archive1a. Before I copy the photos over to the archive drives, I add to which archiving drive set I’m copying to the keywords. Once I’m satisfied, I delete the originals from the RAID, but keep them as part of my LR library. That way, I can always find the picture I want, and where it was archived. Then 1 archived drive goes into a fireproof safe, and the other version goes off site, both wrapped in static-proof bags, then ziplocked.
I will never trust an online archiving source for anything other than one additional form of archiving. Don’t trust them to do back ups of their data, don’t trust them to still be in business as the years go by, don’t trust them to not snoop/borrow/steal. But that’s just me.
If anyone can find a loophole to my system, let me know. Need to sew that shut.
mtomalty
“I’m starting to get comfortable with Adobe Lightroom and once I become ‘fluent’ enough I can’t see
why I wouldn’t do away with PhotoMechanic for my bulk captioning/keywording needs.”
For what it is worth, Lightroom does not put caption or any other metadata in the RAW file. It is either written to the catalog or the sidecar file depending on how you set up the program.
Although it is an extra step, I rename the files and enter basic metadata and caption info in PhotoMechanic. This program does write the information to the file. My thinking is, if there is a catastrophe and I lose either the sidecar files or the lightroom catalog, the file information is still with the original RAW File.
AND, if you are not shooting RAW. You should be.
ANTON:
If you use Lightroom, it will let you keep multiple versions of the files and it will track them for you. Personally I think people overthink the file naming method. It should be uncomplicated and easy to decode.
Mine is simple: YYYYMMDD0001.jpg The 0001 will be the serial number for all images shot on that date. With all of the information you can store in the metadata, why overcomplicate the filename?
PANOS:
Photoshelter is awesome. If you can afford it, it is the way to go. You get at website and an archive all in one.
JENNY LYNNE WALKER:
If you are going to post long URLs you may consider “www.bly.ly” You put in the long address and they give you a shorter version. Works perfectly and it is the same thing the Twitter uses.
“If you use Lightroom, it will let you keep multiple versions of the files and it will track them for you”
You can actually make an “alias” type file. It does actually duplicate the original, but you can use it to play, and come up with different versions of an image from the same RAW file. Pretty sweet. Also, if you edit a file in photoshop, it appears right next to the original file in LR.
Regarding longstanding questions of media culpability relating to all kinds of problems, this guy came up with a great idea. Warning labels.
ALSO PANOS
I am not sure about your financial situation, but if you can do photoshelter along with a Blog site by GraphpaperPress it is a great way to go. You can integrate your blog with your archive. If you go to my site you will see that if you click on an image in a post, you are sent to my archive. This is so people can purchase or license prints directly. You can set print prices, turn on rights based licensing. Also the blog will allow you to talk about your work.
The blog format for my website and photoshelter have done wonders for my SEO. When I switched over at the beginning of the year, if you searched on “photojournalist washington dc” in google I was on page 10. Two months after I left the flash website and did the blog thing with GGP I was on page one.
Being on the web is worth nothing if nobody can find you.
Go here and take the tour. : http://www.photoshelter.com/tour
Also if you or anyone wants to sign up, you get a discount if you use this link:
http://www.photoshelter.com/referral/PE4MA2P756
Of course I get a credit on my account too, but it is all about sharing the love…
BRIAN
As for editing in photoshop, I have to say since making Lightroom the mainstay in my workflow, I almost have no need for photoshop. All my work is pretty much straightforward photojournalism and as such I do very little to the image in post production.
For me Lightroom lets me do everything I need to do.
99% of the time, I agree with you Pete. I just have used PS for so many years, that if I want to achieve something specific, it’s just easier for me to work in PS. I also have a convert to BW action that I like alot more than what LR does.
re: what Pete said regarding lightroom, ditto for me except with Aperture. Would be hard to live without now, I like simple and nondestructive editing.
Uhm, I remember reading somewhere about Magnum’s file naming standard but can’t remember … (where or the standard, lol)
Yea, I need to get LightRoom, just can’t bring myself to pay for it when Photoshop and Bridge work so well. Gave Aperture a serious go, and I’m inclined to like Apple stuff, but it just didn’t work for me. Tried Photoshelter, did not like the templates, found them very difficult to modify, Google never found my site, and support was not good. I realize others have better experiences, but since I don’t accept their templates, I find it marginally easier and much, much cheaper just to do it myself and the SEO results cannot possibly be any worse.
TOM
This is John Vink’s post of a while ago on Lightstalkers about Magnum’s numbering:
“Here are my two cents (it’s the numbering system all Magnum photographers are using):
VIJ2006002G0025: VIJ for the photographer, 2006 for the year, 002 for the second story of the year, G for digital, 0025 for the nr of the picture. VIJ2005012W0125-25A: VIJ for the photographer, 2006 for the year, 012 for the twelfth story of the year, W for B&W film, 0125 for the roll of film, 25A for the nr of the view.
This is called ‘the unique number’. But Magnum being Magnum, the staff uses another number, called ‘the short number’, automatically generated by the computer. The result is that one has to go to the website each time the staff makes a request to a photographer to find out which photograph they are talking about… Headache, headache…
by John Vink Tue Jan 02 22:32:11 UTC 2007 | Phnom Penh,Cambodia
Hope that helps!
I chose clikpic to host my website, it’s simple enough for someone (me) who has no computer experience to set up a very simple site.
It costs £30 upwards a year depending on what you want.
People just keep stuff, can’t edit and want to retain “memories” in a tactile form. It has very little to do with archiving
and then there is Mario Giacometti’s and his ‘understanding’ of what an archive is….
last summer, btw, i let my dad toss out 3 lg boxes of negatives, prints and a bg part of my ‘archive’ that i’d produced before i got married and more to TO…..
and i remember going through my grandmother’s archives of 10,000’s of of slides of a lifetime of shooting, as amateur and as a pro (she’d been the first woman to own/run a photography store in philadelpia)…..
i wonder, really, about the effort to make and see and live and breathe vs the effort to historicize and yearn for something beyond…..
how to archive a life….
read faulkner’s Bear or Pessoa’s Book of Disquiet….
those suitcases stuff with life and longing…
can i be iconoclastic enough to say i don’t archive and don’t have a system and print what i print and put shit in boxes and negative folders and print on whims and make essays on whims and understand that what folk have seen of my work is but a vein, and not it at all….
the archiving of illusion (i will matter) over the acceptance of now (i am a part)….
running
b
MW,
Give Lightroom some serious thought. I have used it since it was a beta and once I wrapped my brain around it, I felt like I was liberated from PS. I am not interested in a PS/LR discussion, just offering a perspective from a guy who has grown up with PS from it’s inception. Just for the record, I have so little use for PS that I still use PS 7.
Isn’t the objective to edit, correct, organize and output?
The LRB template I use is really strong. Very straight-forward with great image display. Can’t say enough about it. As for SEO, in the key phrases important to my work, I’m at the top. SEO is more about presenting logical information. SEO is useless if you do not know how to implement it.
MW, you may find a comfortable template that will fit your needs, but having everything integrated into LR is so easy and efficient. Don’t forget, Google craves new content and who wants to tinker with a website that’s a pain to work with.
I’m a photographer, I don’t want to be a programmer.
I’m a photographer, I don’t want to be a programmer…….. but I could be called a hoarder
I deleted about 70gb of crap from hard drive a while ago; very cathartic…
Ross I had three complete exhibitions(photos and sculptures) sitting in the studio ready to go ………. they sure did straight to the tip as the shows were no longer relevant. What didn’t go to the tip got re appropriated into newer work and in book form (usually hand made) a process that I have been doing for a decade. I have no substantial work prior to !998, stuff sold I have no control over.
7 years of digital work resides in 5 books takes up zero space and lives a contented life with all of the rest of the unread, flicked through books on the shelves.
Thanks Pomara, don’t worry, I’m not looking for an argument, just info. How best to accomplish my immediate purposes while providing ample room for growth? I’ve never doubted I’d come around to LR sometime and that plugin you use looks very useful. I’ll definitely check it out. I trust it’s wise to move to the .dng format as well.
…….. “zero space” as their time is gone
most have even forgotten about this…… or never knew never will
Immats,
The hoarder I try, the hoarder I get. Zero space scares me…
Don’t want no “oh crap” moments.
mw,
Things change yet they remain the same. Photographers have
forever had “their” way of shooting, processing, et. al.
But at the end of the day we want a direct way to get to
the image. If you are at a point that you are ready to
work through LR, don’t hesitate to contact me off-forum.
I can give you some advice about how to think about LR.
By the way if you are in the US and still have some way
to claim a connection to education, the price drops quite
a bit.
Oh and yes .dng is something consider. If you are truly
prepared to step off the cliff look over this http://asmp.org/dpbestflow-seminars
The book is great, but they’ve got a great tutorial.
What’s so cool about this approach is they recommend a
good, better, best so you’ll never feel like you’ll never
get there.
Paul
Paul
DNG …………………. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aj8nGcjbRNU
Archiving? Back ups? This is an interesting concept, but I am not so enamored of the photographic swill I produce that I am going to lose any sleep over it if the lot of it suddenly vanishes into the digital Bermuda Triangle.
Marc, Justin, Pete,Eva,Jenny (ALL..too many names to thank):)
Thank you for suggestions…
Now back to the freeway …
Imants thank u too for finding a way to create TNT out of a DNG file..
Guerrilla fighters from all over the world will find it useful.
Its interesting, I’m also just a photographer, which takes me out, pulling me. I’m also a documenter which is something more innate, wanting to store, like a bower bird, now with a cupboard full of film to scan and share. So yes, I’m also a social being wanting to share these experiences and the wonder of life I see, and have it confirmed. But I’m also not a programmer, not organized in this way of thinking. So when I scan its usually the first sleeve of film I lay my hands on. Add hock. Random. Try to get organized but it hurts my eyes.
So I guess I better go and read what many have suggested. Thanks.
One of the pleasures of life ……….. one minute you are vacuming the abode/house and the next bang everything is dynamite
b’s and d’s gotta watch them
AKAKY, do you backup your writing? That would be a real shame to loose those gems.
By the way AKAKY IRL please tell your sidekick to stop selling himself short on his photography. He still has one of my Burn favorites.
https://www.burnmagazine.org/photographs/2009/03/no-pictures-please-by-akaky/#comments
I have also been following his street photography and though raw I truly enjoy it.
AKAKY IRL he may be set in his ways, but you need to be rather Frank with him (Robert that is) and tell him there is something to be said about shooting from whats within and not from what is excepted.
I think a collaboration is in order between Akaky and Akaky IRL. How about AKAKY shoots the pictures and AKAKY IRL writes the story/cut lines. You two need to cash in about a months worth of vacation and put a book together. Now Akaky I know if each of you take a month off it will cost you two months of vacation but it could be worse, for every week Sybil took off it cost her sixteen.
And that’s how some of the hoarding ends:
http://www.nytimes.com/slideshow/2010/08/04/magazine/20100815-dump.html
I was thinking of the love I felt from those children as I took their photo, and the joy they expressed with the book of their photos I gave them (also DAH’s teaching). I’m confessing I have become a love fest of late.
Another thing just occurred to me in regard to these photos: embedded. I remember posting under someone’s sharing about being embedded with troops, [If I were younger I would embed.]
I love that DAH said #45. It is one of my favorites. The girls at the table; they are looking at the photo book of our last visit in their former home. The girl by the window with the refrigerator just to her right with her sister just off screen–I love that she smiled at me. That light was pure with winter. These sisters take such care of the home. There are many children in this family.
One thing that stood out with Towell’s work for me was the number of times hats or hands were placed in front of faces to prevent their image being taken. It is the same thing only in reverse.
In the photo of hats flashed white and the young girl and dad and mom in the dark by the sink, I like that they are all smiling at me and looking at the camera. Those hats are washed nightly. See that young girl starring at me? She fell in love with tutu (grandmother). The love that comes through these photographs is what is next in this work. With love comes acceptance and that is what we need to evolve to, accepted.
And thinking on the wide angle thing, I tried for two days to just go look at a lens and couldn’t even remember to do it. I will pull it in more now that I have the scope of their “day in a life” documented. All of a sudden I have chills. Oops Civi guess I am a drama queen.
YOU GUYS are all inspirational.
Lee
P.S. Go visit the new essay, Weariness by Alexander. It is great. Talk about a venue to discuss the art of photography. My friend an artist taught me how to actually approach an art piece and view it for at least a bit before my eyebrow went up or I spoke off the cuff my first reaction. I want to know what comes to your minds with the items staged in each shot. Forget about technical stuff. It is like a mystery game. Follow the clues.
Eva…after working with tech support with two large manufacturers regarding defects in their products, I say as consumers we choose carefully who gets our money and we buy from manufacturers that do no harm. I would not mind paying more for a product without built-in obsolescence that lessens demand for mega production. I was told by a large printer manufacturer tech guy that when you buy cheap printers you do have ink hog issues. He said they were selling my printer for $130. I paid over $200 and when looking at the receipt saw I had been issued a “$75 rebate”. So this is who needs to be made responsible for the cleanup. We are making BP clean up an environmental disaster, so keep asking for the supervisor when calling tech support lines until you find someone who can make a policy change. Let them know you will no longer buy their product and you know lots of people and lots of people ask you questions like what is the best to buy. And they do and I tell them my truth about a product. Also inform tect personnel and your friends of ads you have seen that are not true in regard to quality and workmanship based on your experience. Keep details like how many actual photos you get from a complete set of ink cartridges. I’m amazed at the number of times I have been told, “That’s all I can do I can’t help you.” One guy told me I had to ask him something specific but he couldn’t reveal what it was I needed to ask. (???) I said, “Can I speak to your supervisor?” He answered, “That’s it.” I felt totally mocked by this dude–was it his thing or company policy? Now see, these workers could be improving their company by working through client’s issues instead of this kind of crap. It appears it is spread through out the industry so it must be “best practices” for these guys. Well, it isn’t best practices. I have 2 dead printers and 1 pos one to dispose of. The collection center sends them somewhere (those that are busted and other equipment is refurbished and resold) but it would be much better if that printer I bought served me for a long period of time and I was a customer happy to purchase this kind of producer’s products. Doesn’t this sound simple? It is. Consumer driven economy.
Just have a cigarette… U will realize in the second puff that u don’t really need it..
and u will throw it away.. This way u won’t make a myth out of it and instantly u will find out what u r NOT really missing…
Try it . It works..
Lee, consumer driven economy, but not only.. when I heard this (it was featured in a docu in Italian TV) a few weeks ago it really got my attention:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/09/science/earth/09amish.html
panos, that one puff would get me back into a habit i stopped 20 years ago :)
Yeah Eva I saw that one. There is always something…in this instance wouldn’t it be cool if I managed to influence even one family? You asked me to ask myself why I am shooting. Nothing is outside the range of possibility and reality.
The community my friends moved from had many organic farms, all but one side of their property butted up to organic farms. This farm was “one step away from organic”. So even in tough situations of cultural practices they are not averse to bettering the practice. The word is spreading in the ones I have contact with.
Here again consumer driven economy comes into play; make a point to buy produce from the organic farmers. Supply and demand will eventually correct many environmental issues. We have heard all the bad news about all the practices of daily life; check ourselves at the door of each purchase to verify we are not being lazy and buying into the bad practices as talked about earlier.
I only read the first page of the link so not sure what it went on to say. Bedtime I think. Eyes are very tired.
Lee, smiling and happy as usual
BOB…
yes, Giacometti
yes, Faulkner’s “Bear”….
yes, cardboard boxes full of treasures
yes, you gotta archive…for Dima’s sake
DAH, with regard to my post earlier about “emerging”, how about an Oscar-based award system. Call it the Author Award (all about authorship, right?). This way you can have an Author category for Best Fine Art, Best Conceptual Artist, Best Documentary / Photojournalism etc. Each genre competes against other works in the same genre. You can still have an Ultimate Author Award chosen from the winners in each category, it just gets rid of the “emerging” word.
I can see it now, every winner gets a gold Author statue, like Rowan and Martin’s “Fickle Finger of Fate” but the finger pointing upward would be the shutter finger; of course. Laughing.
Mike.
MIKE R…
the tipoff for sure about whether a photographer is “emerging” or not is really easy…
anytime you see a bio as extensive as say Dima, you know for sure you have an “emerging photographer”….smiling :) :)
ONLY EMERGING PHOTOGRAPHERS HAVE LONG BIOS – listing every publication where they may have had a single picture published or short assignment or whatever….normal, fine, but a sign……established photographers usually have little or no bio…i.e. my bio at age 25 was long and impressive…
ok..we can use the word “breakout” (some will say sounds like a jail break)..i like “author” of course (some will say sounds like a writer award) …and on and on and on……..it really does not matter to me one way or the other and maybe we change the name at some point..…..however, the same photographers will receive the grant, the same will not….i think we all know what we are talking about here…..there are semantics and there is subjectivity of course, but basically you answered all of your own questions by giving what you think are my answers..or, actually gave my answers….nice!!
sure there is a difference between your examples : Dima (hard working pj wanna be pro), Jukka (mixed up genius), and Alexander (introspective illustrator)….all “emerging”…
if there were not a difference then we would all belong to a “code” and wear uniforms or something…yuk….you want STANDARDIZATION?? you want clear cut RULES?? you want CATEGORIES?? sorry, you must have dialed the wrong number… :)
cheers, peace, david
DAH, if you knew me you would know that I don’t do standard – or rules (laughing). I have no problem with who gets what here, I’m just pointing out that every year we see comments questioning “emerging”. If people keep questioning the word, maybe it’s the wrong word?
I would like to see categories (I’d enter for Best Boy!) but only because Burn (like photography) covers such a wide range of genres. As it stands, people are comparing apples and oranges. I’d rather be able to look at the winner of the orange category (lets call it genre) and say “Nice orange!” rather than say “I prefer the Apple” – or, as Akkaky would say, “I like the fish” (laughing again).
Best, Mike.
DAVID
you wrote under Alexander’s essay in your comment to me “…waiting to see your singles…”
I just wondering what I should answer and of course I was thinking about photography generally.
Because even if I take a lot of pictures as usually, what can I sand to you??
and even if I will send a pictures what captions I will add?
I am not a photojournalist, so I will not send picture of hungry child from Africa, I have no time for relations with people so I will not send you picture homeless guy, I will not send you picture of drug dealer in Krasnoyarsk or Novosibirsk, I will not send a pictures of poverty from Wroclaw or even youth on shopping, I will not go to Greenland for two years or Tokyo.
Why should I take pictures like that?
I take portraits people I know, but who care about pictures of Aga or Gosia for example. And what interesting caption I will add under the pictures? “This is Aga, person I know”… really, who cares?
I work at some project lately, but I try to do poetical essay. Nothing special for anyone else than me. I print it as a little book and I am quite satisfy from. there are some pictures I think are great.
But even if I will send the best pictures what I will write under them?
This pictures are peopleless, some kind of landscape, so what captures I will add???
“This is just place near Wroclaw, date”
rubbish
I can’t write what idea if for whole essay, because I will work on next year or so.
Next thing I work hard on is my first “Family book vol.1”
And this work gives me the best joy ever.
I printed it as a hand made book but still editing and changing.
This is not material for Burn singles also.
When I take my pictures I try do this best I can, I try do this like magnum photographers doing they work. I try do my photography as good as your are.
But this is not material to send to Burn and never will be.
This is not material to write about more than two- three words.
since long time I call myself snapshot photographer because I do snapshots.
So even if I try work as much as my finance give me chance, I have nothing to share with world.
My world is too small to be interesting.
and I take pictures because I am not a writer.
well… it was a long comment to say… I have nothing to send to Burn… :))))))
But I will wait for your singles!!
peace
MIKE R..
i am quite sure Mike you are not “standard”…i hope it was clear i was exaggerating with a smile to make a point…
i am afraid we will see comments questioning this that and the other thing no matter what we call this grant…we have the same thing at Magnum with our grants…many do not like the name…the rules…the age limit…the gender reference…oh my oh my .everyone questions everything all the time…except the recipients of course who just love love the name!! when you are awarding funds, you set yourself up for all kinds of critique…just human nature
a “rule of thumb” : do nothing in life and you will receive no criticism..
cheers, david
MARCIN…
i made that comment about you sending singles, because you wrote in a previous comment that you were going to send singles…i believe of your family…isn’t this correct? or did i make a mistake in reading?
cheers, david
Marcin,
why don’t you let us decide, if you small world is really boring for us?
I woul like to know more about your world. As we learned of the world of others…
DAVID,
Ha ha, I wrote I will wait for singles you will publish not I will send one :)
MARCIN..
ok, sorry…my mistake….but, of course we did publish a very nice single last year from you…and from your private life….a friend’s wedding i believe….are they still married?
Marcin, no, sorry, but no :)
Your backyard, your family is far away and as exotic as to you Greenland or whatever place might be.. the photographs we see are always someone’s backyard, someone’s families, someone’s relatives.. sometimes the photographers’ itself, sometimes not, does that matter?
As long as the photograph is good, great, what else does matter?
(Gotta believe my mantra.. yep, gotta do that..)
DAVID,
I didn’t know this people, wedding was a job of my colleague, and I was there to hold reflector panel only.
David, no problem this end, never has been; and yes, I know that you can’t please everyone! I remember seeing a “Magnum Stories” documentary on BBC TV a long time ago where two photographers (one was Ferdinando Scianna as I remember) were made full members of Magnum. Someone walked up to Ferdinando, shook his hand and jokingly said “Welcome to the argument, I disagree with you!
Marcin, “who care about pictures of Aga or Gosia” I’d love to see some really good photography of Aga and Gosia! I’ve never been to Poland so the whole landscape and people are exotic to me. For me, a successful essay is one that educates me and shows me wonderful photographs. That said, it’s easy to forget (I do) that the primary entity in photography is the photograph and that a single photograph, well taken, can stand on its own, without caption or explanation.
Best wishes,
Mike.
PETE
I understand your reasoning… One would be inclined to believe to be able to “remember” one’s image with just the date and a number… and rightly so, if you are the only one doing the remembering.
But then again my reasoning stands: with your filename like that, it will not stand if your image is not in your archive and folder system and structure, and you are not the one personally looking for it.
Imagine we would all throw our images into one big folder, and then have someone else (like an editor) organize that into folders per photographer…. who’s images will be categorized most quickly and with least chance of error (correct photog name, correct project, correct date, correct image order):
“20090715_38293494.tif”
or
“antonkusters_003_chinastory_20090715_38293494.tif”
I’m almost sure that as an editor or other outside person, you’d prefer the second one…
a
ALL
That image from ‘Country Doctor’ with the child. I always imagine that the look on the face of the photographer at the moment it was taken was close to the look on the face of the subject. It is the pure intention of the photographer expressed in a moment when photographer and subject are lost in total concentration. Let us NEVER stop championing the range of skills and values that underlies images such as this. I agree with David that we don’t need rules but we do need values and integrity, don’t we? If we don’t have both of these, we’ll never get the chance to be anywhere as near as good as W. Eugene Smith… not that you haven’t seen them all before but… images 15 and 16…
http://www.magnumphotos.com/Archive/c.aspx?VP=XSpecific_MAG.StoryDetail_VPage&pid=2TYRYDDWML5P
TIME COVER/AFGHANISTAN WAR
Here’s a link to a story that states that the Bush Administration flew in members of the Taliban (and put them up in 5* hotels) for talks over oil and pipelines. I really do have a feeling that the war in Afghanistan is not about womens issues. Please check it out…
http://www.commondreams.org/views02/0111-05.htm
AKAKY
Do you have any photography books in print? I just took a look at your single image plus text for the first time and it has blown me away. Really nice.
PS And we all want to at least aim to be as good as the best… including David Alan Harvey
MARCIN…
oh ok…well, no matter….in any case, what Eva says is correct and you well know i have been saying exactly the same thing to you for three or four years….when i fly 10,000 miles i only end up in somebody’s backyard
My workflow is as follows. I use Aperture to upload my photographs into a folder for the month (e.g. 0810 (for August 2010) I rename the files 0810.(filename) and add a caption and keywords. keywords are most important. I used to use folders like Manchester, Lake District etc. but what if you have both on the card? What about the “singles” that don’t fit a specific project and don’t warrant a folder of their own?
To find ANYTHING I create a Smart Album and set criteria like keywords and star rating and there they are! Lightroom will work in a similar way – I have both but am leaning toward Aperture.
To archive I have photographs on my Mac and a Lacie 1TB hard drive with older stuff on a Western Digital drive. I intend to purchase another Lacie drive and store everything offsite and update the drive once a month with new stuff. This way if the house burns down or is robbed I still have my photographs. My analogue slides are stored in a big box in original slide boxes. I can’t store them in two places so they stay with me. A thief would not be interested in a box of slides but would probably steal the hard drives; hence the duplication. I really need to buy that offsite drive!!
Mike.
Well… Burn is not a Facebook.
I take pictures of my friends represented my feelings about them, not story about Poland.
there is a thousands great portraits on Flickr, and I love to watch them. But if it is part of Alec Soth’s Niagara essay, it is important, it have a meaning, if not there are only a portraits like thousands. Or billions.
Maybe this is the reason why on burn is no many of singles.
It is hard to put value into single picture.
DAH wrote:
“…a ‘rule of thumb’ : do nothing in life and you will receive no criticism..”
Au contraire, David mon ami! I have done my very best to do nothing for much of my life, and have received nothing but criticism for it, from long-dead parents, my older brother, a number of teachers, an army captain, two former wives, and even a number of other people’s dogs who were in my temporary care. Doing nothing is a lot harder than most people realize and is rarely tolerated by other people.
So I guess MY ‘rule of thumb’ is: criticism is inevitable, no matter what, so why not rock on?
“If she only would apply herself more…” ’twas written on every school report since first grade.. along with “always daydreaming”.. mamma mia.. Sidney, thanks for the reminder, sheesh.. ;)
Sidney sounds like you are doing something ……….maybe it is just the wrong nothing
In the wards. 017 in particular we used to………….
ALL
I’m writing up the next installment about my archive system… this one is going to be about the archive itself: archive type, archive format, archive location, and archive accessibility
two main things to keep in mind are: an archive of your best “finished” work is not the same as the achive of the images you are presently working on (or “developing”), or the “products” you are in the process of making with the images you made (like a mag, a book,…).
and of course: keep on factoring in that the archive could digital or analog (example of analog archive: a filing cabinet, example of a digital archive: a hard disk), or maybe even a mix of both?
will let you know when I’m done…
cheers,
a
Marcin, HCB took single Photographs. Magnum photographer Mark Power has a new essay about Poland in this month’s British Journal of Photography (see it online at http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/38e03aa6#/38e03aa6/1
As I said, I’d love you to show me (and everyone here) around Poland via your photographs.
Best wishes,
Mike.
ANTON:
First let me say I am talking strictly about digital. If you are shooting film it can be a bit more complicated I guess, but when I shot all chromes years ago, it was still the same numbering system. I don’t understand why whether an image is color or black and white has to be indicated in the filename or any numbering system for that matter. The image is what it is. Unless of course you are having instances where the image is both in color and in BW. But of course unless it is a duplicate, from the same neg, it really isn’t a duplicate, it is a similar.
All of the information you talk about, can be kept in the metadata. Then just use a program like photomechanic to sort the images if you need to.
When talking digital – NOBODY who has to keep track of hundreds or thousands of images at an agency or a publication is going to be going through a folder or folders on a computer looking for it. They will search with software. OS X now lets you search by content, so you dont even really need something like photoshelter or lightroom.
So, yes with my system and the tens of thousands of images that I have in my digital archive, you or anyone else can walk in, go into lightroom and do a search on images I shot of Obama with dates, keywords or whatever and have the images on the screen in seconds.
If you are keeping this archive it should be all you need. If you are concerned about sending your image to an agency, they will implement their own system anyway. For instance, I send all my stuff to ZUMA numbered as is and they have a program that applies their own number. Same as when you upload to photoshelter. My image number is there but photoshelter tracks all images by a different number to make sure that for some reason no two photographer images have the same number.
Also
“two main things to keep in mind are: an archive of your best “finished” work is not the same as the achive of the images you are presently working on (or “developing”), or the “products” you are in the process of making with the images you made (like a mag, a book,…).”
If you are using lightroom, again talking about digital, these can all be in the same place and accessed very quickly. Lightroom has “collections” to keep track of all of this. And the images are all in the same place.
Photographers should be shooting, not worrying about complicated systems to track their images.
Because lets be fair Anton, with this image numbering system: “antonkusters_003_chinastory_20090715_38293494.tif”
You still don’t know what specific photo it is. I just think with the software tools we have available, we should use them to do the work.
SIDNEY…
point well taken…i guess you are quite correct….although you could live down here on the shore where i am and it seems quite a few people have perfected the art of doing nothing….much to be admired…in any case, yes we move forward at our own respective paces…
MARCIN…
missing your point…
MIKE R…
i never print for exhibition or publish in books anything other than singles either…i dislike “storytelling” connecting pictures
ANTON…
good point about two archives…yes, there is the working archive which has basically everything and then what i call the “gold” which are just the best…once i have the gold part of the archive, i do not really care about the working archive…
and the thing to think about is what happens after you are gone? do you really want anyone to dig into your working archive?? this one drives Koudelka crazy who thinks HCB would be turning in his grave if he knew what was being exhibited now just a few years after his death…should Henri have destroyed or hidden all but only is best?? something to think about….
cheers, david
PETE…
with a unique numbering system of course you know exactly which photo it is….why you think otherwise?
DAH
“with a unique numbering system of course you know exactly which photo it is….why you think otherwise?”
antonkusters_003_chinastory_20090715_38293494.tif
NOT True. Ask Anton to tell you what picture this is specifically without looking. Change the number to another one in the series and ask him again. Nobody has that good of a memory.
“and the thing to think about is what happens after you are gone? do you really want anyone to dig into your working archive?? this one drives Koudelka crazy who thinks HCB would be turning in his grave if he knew what was being exhibited now just a few years after his death…should Henri have destroyed or hidden all but only is best?? something to think about….”
This is an interesting point, BUT, Who decides what is best? You can show a set of photos to 10 different photographers or 10 different editors and you will always get a different answer. We say all the time that a photographer is his own worst editor. So maybe HCB did not pick his best. Is it possible? Does it matter?
PETE…
that unique number only belongs to one picture….i think we might not be talking about the same thing…
simple: the artist declares what is best in terms of historic archive…not talking newspaper editors, or ad shoots, or any commercial work…i am talking historic personal archive…
on the HCB issue, of course it matters….it mattered to HCB, to Koudelka, and it would matter to me…but if you cannot see why it would matter, then i guess it doesn’t matter…
some (few) photogs might be their own worst editors on the initial edit, but then once they have declared a picture to be one of “theirs” , then most want to lock it down…again, that is what is driving Koudelka crazy who sees it as most do as their benchmark, their place, their signature, etc etc…i mean who wants to see the “second best” from Gypsies for example?? maybe see the contact sheets etc…but to exhibit the “seconds” or “thirds”? do not think so…
ok, off to shoot…the odds of me making a photograph today that “matters” is slim….but, who knows…maybe
Marcin:
I completely agree with you! So I can blame W. Eugene Smith for the fact that my series of pictures of Fedora as it is doesn’t work.. right? Great. So now I can sit back and be sorry for myself, and don’t have to go out and try to do beter. Nice. Thanks!
;)
EVA..
Marcin is always too pessimistic…please do not think as Marcin….besides , he is not ALWAYS like this…only today…or, it is raining in Poland…or something like that…smiling
David:
it can’t be raining in Poland.. all the rain is coming down here, no kidding!
“that unique number only belongs to one picture….i think we might not be talking about the same thing…”
I understand that. We were discussing elaborate file naming conventions. Anton and others like to put their names, format, color or BW, and all this other stuff in a filename (which can and will in some instances, get truncated between computer systems.). I was merely saying that it should be a simple indexing convention and leave all the other information to the metadata in the file. As I said, the programs for organizing digital images can all search and sort on the metadata fields. Why not use them and simply keep the filenames simple.
As I mentioned before, my file naming: YYYYMMDD0001.NEF is simple and of course each image has a unique number. I can easily pull images from a particular date and see everything I shot that day. If I need to be more specific, since I am usually looking at the images in lightroom anyway, I just search on the subject, content, or keyword. And they magically appear.
hey pete…
i understand your reasoning… but again, you are not getting the point I make: you need software to be able to know which image is which… I do not…
antonkusters_003_chinastory_20090715_38293494.tif
could well also be
antonkusters_specificimagetitle_20090715_38293494.tif
“needing” software to find out who the image belongs to, is not a good idea. obviously we don’t need to take it too far, but photographer name, IMHO, should ALWAYS be part of the filename… never ever leave your own name (or initials) out of the filename would be my mantra
[Obviously i also include the same info in the metadata]
About the two archives: no Lightroom cannot do what i was describing… of course it can keep track of different images and their different states, and use collections and virtual collections and masters and copies like you say, BUT i’m talking about what you do with your images once they are “ready”… the image is NOT ALWAYS THE END GOAL FOR ME: an indesign file of a book, original sketches for an exhibition, a word document outlining a plan for funding, an illustrator file with artwork using your images…. this is all one step further and (mostly) cannot be organized with lightroom.
Obviously, for the image editing part, i use lightroom extensively… it’s one of my favorites. And photomechanic, because yes, it’s the one that can write the metadata to the DNG…
good thoughts amigo… makes me think harder and refine more…
cheers,
a
Pete,
I guess Anton plans to put pictures from different photographers into the same directory.
(Intentionally or accidentally does not matter) – with Anton’s naming scheme he is pretty protected against overwriting of files.
I was also thinking about something similar, but feared always the long names.
my naming scheme currently maps only directories, the pictures scheme is cardsequenceno_originalfilename.ext, i.e. 0001_MG_9871.CR2 but Anton’s naming scheme actually is appealing to me, as it names pictures independently from any directory or tool.
“Up to what degree of distortion does an individual still remain himself?”-kundera, from his new book of essays ‘encounter’
and one last bit about archives…among all the technical etching away here, what i’d wanted to mention last night…
as some of you know (David) and as others of you most may not know, in 1980 Mighuel Rio Branco’s home burned down….nearly his entire b/w archive was destroyed…..all that was left, mostly, was color slides……the ones he’d had with him as he was traveling….and of what do we know his photography….and of what has he done with his musical, cinematic, non-linearly painterly color work…..and what the fuck am i trying to suggest with the story of Giacometti and kundera and Rio Branco….
that, good for you, if you ‘have’ some kind of archival system…..but, in truth, i find it numbing to thing that the arc and the discussion is more about preservation rather, the knock toward history’d, rather than the relation of what making objects means…
and altar of loss and from that sinks in a sense of, at least to me, what it means, to make pictures and then to share them and then, ultimately, to let them go….
Rio Branco’s story, to me, is one that should be more closely understood….better than the chiming of sequential digital name markers….
running
b
p.s. john v, i hope, will drop by and talk about re-discovering old negs when culling through his early work from cambodia….namesless and like a phoenix, re-emerging.
Eva, David
Now I miss the point :)
Let we just leave my weird comments.
Lost in translation
but without Scarlett
and here is not raining now
even without the rain
a song for everyone
Marcin, I was just kidding.. been in Poland back in 2007, loved it.. lonesome, nostalgic, at least to me as a tourist.. would love to see what it is/looks like, for real.. the people too.. c’mon, forget about names, just do your thing and share, please :)
Imants, I’ve just found this under my comment to Alexander:
“I heard a phrase “artists who use photography” recently and I’d put this essay in that category……… a rather demeaning statement or is it Mike that as a photographer your input into society is more important than that of artists? You make yourself out as if you are a cut above those that venture into art.”.
I was not, and never would, demean anyone’s work. It is a statement on my part that I know little of the art world but I do know that some artists – that is people who call themselves artists rather than photographers – use photography in their work and even as a vehicle for their ideas. By using photography, they are photographers but what they produce is centceptual art.
You show your knowledge of this genre of photography in your post under Julien Coquentin’s essay
“Repetitiveness is due to some of the work is based on a technical formula as this is http://www.bwiti-photos.com/fr/portfolio-3408-0-40-rumeur.html
and
http://www.bwiti-photos.com/fr/portfolio-3314-0-40-cold-days.html
and
http://www.bwiti-photos.com/fr/portfolio-4754-0-40-retour-au-pays.html
and
I prefer 3,4,5,6 ofthese http://www.bwiti-photos.com/fr/portfolio-4634-0-40-empreintes.html”
and I bow to your superior knowledge. It’s easy on a forum to misunderstand people’s intentions or meanings but you do seem to attack people here.
Alexander: no insult intended.
Mike.
LOVE to ALL MY BURNIANS…
I will be back to call some names out…
Did I tell you …I miss you ALLL:)))
Are you shooting…???
MARCIN,
Sorry you are feeling this way again. I know, been there myself and still beat myself up now and then about my “boring life” (which is always of my own making and not the true reality).
There is a woman who has come up with an observational way of healing. Her name is Byron Katie. In a nutshell she has you ask yourself (or even better have a facilitator ask you) four questions about any “story” you might tell about yourself, your situation, others, etc. H
Here are the four questions:
1. Is it true?
2.Can you absolutely know that it’s true?
3.How do you react, what happens, when you believe that thought?
4.Who would you be without the thought?
So we make up stories about our situation, and by running through this set of questions it becomes quite obvious that usually it isn’t true and it is just that – a story. And when we think about how we would feel without that story (#4) it’s a big weight lifted off and we can move forward.
Keep in mind that 90% of all photos taken, by the Magnums, and the VII’s and the Emergings, etc etc are snapshots. It’s the recognizing of that fact that sets one apart and so you can begin to filter the important from the mundane. But if we don’t take the mundane, and always wait for the so called “important” we may as well not even bother. So keep shooting, editing, and enjoying the process, no matter the results. As DAH said the other day, it’s about coming full circle and realizing that as a photographer you are just an ordinary person as everybody else, except with a camera in hand that can allow you to do extraordinary things – and quite often it’s making the ordinary extraordinary. Look at Cartier Bresson. Though he traveled the world as a journalist, most of his best known shots – picnic on the Seine, man jumping puddle, etc, were taken in his backyard, so to speak. Much as your fantastic man in field photo was.
So good luck brother. I certainly hope to make it to Poland someday, a country I’ve always been fascinated by. Will look you up whenever that happens.
Best,
CP
CIVI,
Shooting Felix this morning – my favorite subject always!
Hugs,
CP
Civi,
Shooting Rydal Sheepdog trials and Circus Mondeo (only outside pre-visualised) last Thursday. Got what I wanted.
Mike.
CHARLES…
yes…exactly…and …
BOB…
now you know damned well that i know nothing of setting up a numbering system..laughing..Anton does and Magnum does of course and i am pleased….like you, i of course also take the Ozymandias lesson to heart…dust in the wind….at the same time i think one might just make a nod towards some sort of preservation just in case all this work we do does somehow incur some value…for our heirs etc…the reality is that i am going to be living and working at least partly off of pictures that i took as a child…who woulda ever ever ever guessed that these family snaps would have value beyond the sentimental??…
as it turns out the picture i take next year might be financed by the pictures i took many years ago…this is real…and has been real for me for a long time now with all of my work….this has given me freedom…my daily snaps, yes my pictures have given me freedom…freedom to spend time w family, freedom to think, freedom to do Burn, and mostly freedom to do new work…
so while numbering systems etc are mind numbing and i never think about them any more than i think about spark plug wires , i am pleased that someone does…and i do make archival prints and get those cardboard boxes of negs into a refrigerated locked down room just in case someone might be interested in the future…a someone who could be inspired to do something to record these passing moments on our fragile planet..sure, all gone eventually…but in the meantime art inspires ….and if inspiration is not at least one of our goals , then we might as well fold the tents….or, less philosophically, it gives me something to do…that might just be enough….:)
now before Marcin or you or anyone says “well, yes, but you are you”, just remember i was not “me” when i was your age and making sure my negs were safe….yup safe…can’t find em, but i know more or less where they are..laughing….
cheers, david
Numbering system? Well I checked once and I had almost 120 “new folders” in my archive. And about 30 pictures named “1”, and 20 named “a1” and so on…
Well, that’s THE SYSTEM, isn’t it??
my film archive is even worst mess.
from time to time I take a book from a shelf, and what I find inside??… films I was looking for and swearing…
:)))))))))
…as we…
…go for…
THE, as opposed to some other the…
GOLD!!!!
YES!!!!! Thank you for your cooperation. We return to your regularly scheduled programming, already in progress….
CHARLES
“So keep shooting, editing, and enjoying the process, no matter the results.”
thats what I do almost every day with pure joy and satisfaction (almost)
Just like Dory says “just keep swimming”
The most annoying thing is to really want to do something specific with a series of photos that in a clearly remembered sequence of events was never backed up to a DVD due to computer issue, and hard drive saved to (before G Safe) died, and only record is posted on Facebook in a useless format. Letting that one go.
David.
Speaking of Magnum; Just out of interest, I was wondering if Magnum had an upper age to their selection. Say for example someone in their mid-50’s applied and had just the sort of portfolio Magnum was interested in. Would that person be in with a chance?
When it gets down to brass tacks, Magnum is a commercial entity and would they rather pump their efforts into someone younger where there was a longer period to re-coup their investment of time and promotions etc? Or would they accept the older person even though it would probably a less viable financial proposition?
Cheers :-)
archives…… managed to get it all down to about 22 gigabytes.
The rest is just stuff that can float around and be deleted at whim other than some family images that are photographs that don’t need high end files and have had external HD homes that get refreshed every 6 months or so.
Slide shows come and go
ROSS…
financial position and finances in general are not factors when we look for new members….we figure great photographers will eventually be good business or good for business no matter what, so we just go for the great photographer part……we also figure photogs who are already set financially just ain’t hungry enough to be in Magnum or again, too set in their “successful ways”….there is definitely an effort to look for young talent simply because the young are more likely to grow and not be locked up creatively …however, exceptions are always the case as with fairly recent new members coming, like Bruce Gilden and Jim Goldberg, both over 50 when they came in… and DAH was 49 and hungry when he became a nominee…
cheers, david
David considering many a renown photographer’s relevant work will only fill a book or two, maybe we are archiving way too much
Thanks for that David. It’s interesting to hear that Magnum put the photographic work ahead of purely financial considerations.
“maybe we are archiving way too much”
You hit the nail on the head there. I’m trying to sort all that out now. I’m in the process of sorting out a new website yet to be honest there’s not much older work I want to put up on it. There’s a lot of “nice” work; but not the work I want to, and am trying to, shoot now.
For example; I’ve got tons of “really nice” images I shot at a mate’s horse trek; but I don’t want it on my website precisely because it is “really nice” stuff. I hope that makes sense. Nice photo library stuff; but not the work I want to pursue.
I’ve decided to spend the next 12 months trying to push my work to a new level; and basically just say “screw the stuff I’ve shot before”. Unless the new work at least reaches the level of some of the “kids” project (and the spin-off project I’m shooting) then I don’t want to know about it.
It’s bloody hard to say goodbye to some of the older stuff, but a necessary evil. Onwards and upwards, and don’t look back I suppose…
Cheers :-)
fill a book or two, maybe we are archiving way too much…
Absofuckinglutely!
Too much crap archived…
Space became expensive..
Although “cheaper” for most!
Yep,
we’re archiving way too much …. I have just ONE large project to archive, keyword, caption, print etc… rest are a bunch of smaller stories that i will just backup once
…and a few singles…
…and a few new stories coming up…
…damn… my archive is growing again :-)))
A few years ago edited my many boxes of slides. You know the process, when you get your slides back from Kodak you (used to) select the best one or two shots and move them to slide pages and the rest of the 36 shots get stored in the slide box. These are the boxes I edited. Took me about two days and two plastic waste bags: I threw away all of the duplicates and all the shots that just didn’t make the cut. All the slides I have left now a good. Keepers. Care must be taken as sometimes a photograph grows on you or becomes more valuable or meaningful over time.
With digital, the delete button can be too handy, but generally saves you from keeping shots that you know you will never print or show.
Imants, did you read my reply (above) to your comments about my post on Alexander’s essay?
Mike.
Yea
DAVID AH
yes i would agree… my EDIT archive I would most certainly not want to fall into the hands of publishers or the like… only my DEF archive with the ones i chose are to be seen
On the other hand I would not want the EDIT archive to disappear alltogether when I am gone, in a certain way it shows the work that has gone into it all to be able to create the DEF archive in the first place… and things like contact sheets could be very interesting as well…
hmm good stuff to think about…
a
CHARLES
I just spotted a comment you wrote a few days ago and although it was fascinating, I feel it is not helpful to see Henri Cartier-Bresson as an ‘ordinary person’. He was not an ordinary person clearly. I mean how many people in the world do you know that can write amazing philosophy as well as take great pictures?
I am an Aunty again and am loving it! And the new addition to the family was already 3 years old when I met him for the first time yesterday. Dressed in a t-shirt with a green kangaroo printed on it that looked remarkably similar to the dinosaur printed on the packet of chocolate raisins I gave him as a present. We had a barbecue together, the whole family, and after searching the garden for butterflies and caterpillars with my niece and nephew, we ended the evening sitting around a ‘camp fire’ under the stars listening to soft music and catching up on family news. : )
Now it’s onward and upward with photographs and archiving!
IMANTS…ANTON..PANOS
yes, i do think we are archiving way too much….one of the reasons for many is the library stock sales which can come out of those “seconds” and “thirds”…but those very same pictures which might earn one money from stock sales or whatever, might come back to haunt the photographer in the long run…keeping the two archive system going while you are alive works because you can control it…managing your career after death is a bit difficult anyway, but setting up a proper archive for your heirs to manage is definitely prudent…or, if one is of a different mind set, then a big archival bonfire at your wake could be the right thing to do…nice light…
cheers, david
DAVID ALAN HARVEY
You wrote: “we also figure photogs who are already set financially just ain’t hungry enough to be in Magnum”. What does ‘hungry enough’ mean? It seems a strange way to be thinking given the financial situation of both of Magnum’s founding members. Were they ‘hungry enough’ or am I missing something?
ANTON:
“On the other hand I would not want the EDIT archive to disappear alltogether when I am gone, in a certain way it shows the work that has gone into it all to be able to create the DEF archive in the first place… and things like contact sheets could be very interesting as well…”
A very good point. Since I do mostly news, I hold onto everything. You just never know. Time Magazine photographer Dirck Halstead wrote a good editorial on the Digital Journalist some years ago about the importance of keeping everything and owning your own work…
http://digitaljournalist.org/issue9807/editorial.htm
In the grand scheme of things it is not that big a deal to archive everything. Storage is cheap. And the programs to catalog it are not that expensive either. Lightroom is 200.00 and you can get a 1 TB hard drive for 100.00. I usually fill 2 TB a year so about 400.00 a year for a original and a backup. Not really an expensive insurance policy.
And as Anton said above, the outtakes can be a valuable teaching tool, historical record, and you never know, maybe valuable at some point.
And technically I guess I have a 2 archive system. The main archive with everything on my system and the ones to publish on Photoshelter.
JENNY…
you say “both founding members”..????..hmmm…the four founding members of Magnum were all in totally different financial situations, so i do not quite understand your comment…..HCB, to the manor born, and Capa, dirt poor ,at the extremes with Chim and George somewhere in between…”hungry” in my lexicon does not refer to wealth, but to the DESIRE/PASSION to create…however, too much wealth can make one flat out lazy (or in HCB case very well connected)…again, no rules…just tendencies…there are obviously always exceptions to everything as i thought i pointed out…besides, i was not writing about the founding or intricacies of Magnum anyway, but more specifically about the selection of new members age wise now as per Ross’ inquiry….
PETE..
yes, good points and i think the track of most…still you might want to put some kind of fence around the very best…the very best in YOUR opinion….i am talking about a relatively few pictures…500 or less i imagine…anyway, the main thing is that you are on the case…good….
cheers, david
DAVID ALAN HARVEY
Yes, I thought that the definition of hungry might be that. I would like to know how there is any connection or correlation between ‘financial position’ and ‘hungriness’? Could you explain the thinking behind it? I would have thought that the hunger comes from the depth of need to be heard, to say something or to create. That kind of hunger crosses ANY kind of divide or category within ‘humanity’ doesn’t it? I understood that Robert Capa, prior to setting up Magnum, was part of a wealthy, connected circle of people although his identity was largely ‘invented’.
JENNY,
Once again you need to read and think more carefully. I never called HCB ordinary, rather that the fact that some of his most enduring images derived from ordinary situations and his ability to exist in the world as an “ordinary” person whilst photographing and therefore recognize and capture those moments. It was apropo to a comment DAH made earlier that struck me:
“Realizing when you are “in the moment” is crucial to photographers obviously, but photographers are just ordinary people who have cameras, but who temporarily think they are not ordinary people because they have cameras, but can really become something special when they realize they are ordinary, but do something about it with their cameras…”
Best,
CP
DAVID ALAN HARVEY
There are hard-working, active people in all sections of society as there are lazy, inactive people in all sections of society, or? Have you experienced something contrary to this?
By the way, are you aware that anyone who googles Magnum Photos gets this as a description:
Well-known cooperative agency with offices in London, Paris, Tokyo and New York, founded in 1947 by Henri Cartier Bresson, Robert Capa and others.
http://www.magnumphotos.com
It leaves two of the founding members – David Seymour and George Rodger – out.
Anyway, this may not be very important but to make judgements based on an artist’s financial position seems questionable.
CHARLES
I urge YOU to think and to write more carefully. It could be that YOU should think about what you have written IF you do not wish people to interpret it in any other way than the way that you intended. Perhaps you should re-write it?
Please tell me what you mean by ‘an ordinary person’. I can see no ‘ordinary’ people. To me everyone is unique and special.
Jenny, might have missed something: who exactly makes judgements (based on an artist’s financial position)?
a message of love to david alan harvey, burnians, the human race and ALL life on Earth! : )
x x x x x x <3 x x x x x x x x x x x x <3 x x x x x x x x x x x x <3 x x x x x x x x x x x x <3 x x x x x x
Jenny,
I understand David’s words as follows:
– if I am a millionaire and great famous photographer, I possibly not apply to Magnum, because I see no benefit
– if I am not a millionaire but great photographer, I probably apply to Magnum, because I expect better business from it.
I see no statements towards wealthy or poor people in general.
additionally, regarding being “ordinary” or “special” – I do understand David’s words here that as a photographer you should be humble and perceive YOURSELF as ordinary. If you see YOURSELF as exquisite and special, your own arrogance may stand in your way.
For a person who is so earthbound and spiritual like you, I feel a lot of anger and attacks in your words, Jenny. What’s up?
EVA
That is not important to me as I was responding to Charles in which he himself mentioned the term ‘ordinary people’. It is him that I have posed the question to. But, I have noticed on many occasions in these past weeks, how you like to question people. Do you question yourself as much and kid you add a link to your website as requested?
EVA
That is not important to me as I was responding to Charles in which he himself mentioned the term ‘ordinary people’. It is him that I have posed the question to. But, I have noticed on many occasions in these past weeks, how you like to question people. Do you question yourself as much? And did you add a link on here to your website as requested or, please could you add another?
THOMAS
Try reading my words in a very soft voice… you may hear them differently. I would rather not respond to anyone else on a question that I put to one person on here because then I will take up too much space and will then be reprimanded by the boss. okay : )
Anton,
question regarding your archive – do you use some specific software to manage it?
For you develop pictures, I understand you use Lightroom or/and Photo Mechanic.
Is it another library in Lightroom or another software at all?
Jenny, seems either me or you have gotten things mixed up here, but, as you say, it’s not important.
Anyway, to answer your questions: I wasn’t aware that I ‘question’ people, but that I ask questions when I don’t understand something/someone, but yes, I do question myself often.. about the link, sorry, but seems I’ve missed something again, a link to my website requested by whom?.. no, no link posted on here.
My archiving consists of piles of negatives on various surfaces, so it takes an extraordinarily long time to find anything….the digital (up to 2009) have been backed up onto cd’s, though finding specific pictures would be very hard to do.
I now have a ‘my book’ for the mac which saves everything daily but i know that’s not really enough.
I suppose it’s always just been my hobby, a mash of family shots…it would be nice to print into books for the kids one day though.
ALL
Great story on the land mine-seeking African Giant Pouched Rat on the Magnum site! One rat can clear 200 square metres of land of land mines in 30 minutes – the equivalent of two days’ work for a manual de-miner. How amazing is that?!
http://www.magnumphotos.com/Archive/C.aspx?VP=XSpecific_MAG.StoryDetail_VPage&pid=2K1HRGMXWST
EVA
What’s your surname? Good to know that you question yourself as much.
ALL
sorry to be posting so many topics at once… but on the ability to tell a story AND the “multimedia” topic: some interesting stuff… REALLY interesting stuff… if any of you are in doubt what real multimedia is :-)
Beware… each of these links take a lot of time to explore to the fullest…
– abnormalbehaviorchild – http://www.abnormalbehaviorchild.com/inter.html
– NAWLZ (choose season 1 or season 2) – http://www.nawlz.com/
– 99rooms (very subtle interaction) – http://www.99rooms.com/99rooms.html
– Conclave Obscurum – http://www.conclaveobscurum.ru/
– Routines – http://www.routining.com/
– abnormalbehaviorchild (again) – http://www.abnormalbehaviorchild.com/video_test/marianna.html
have fun…
a
ANTON
We love all the posts! Thanks SO MUCH for the multimedia links! Going to check them ALL out!
Jenny, sorry, but ‘as much’ as what? I don’t think that knowing my surname would make any difference, but for your tranquillisation, both DAH and Anton know I am for real.
Anton, I hate that stuff like in room 26, I’m a sensitive gal, argh.. ;)
eva
hehe i got a fright too the first time :-)
hugs
a
EVA
Okay. From now on, I will not be responding to any of your questions. I believe we should treat all people equally and as you do not respond to my requests, I can see no reason why I should continue to respond to your questions so I will ignore you from now on.
Loved the ‘Routines’ post, fantastic work…the others are not my kinda thang.
Jenny it’s a beautiful Sunday over here and everywhere ..:)
Eva is really for “real”..seen her work and even try to “edit”
..mostly giving my opinions.. I’m not DAH skilled editing wise..:)
But Eva has a great skill making an M6 and a tri-x sing..
Please let’s not go down that path of personal.. No asking credentials either..
We don’t need another “I’m leaving burn” tshirt to be purchased today..;)
Anton:)
I’m glad u started posting more often..
We need some advice coz not everyone is as a computer tech as u or pete or charles or brian or many others here..
I’m too old school used to keep negatives in boxes etc ..
I’m still afraid of apertures and lightrooms..
Ha ha.. Photomechanical saved me.. But still I’m like an infant in this new beautiful digi world..
Although I m glad
and happy about digital.. It saved me tons of money I never had..
Without digital I wouldn’t be able to shoot so much.. Simply couldn’t afford film and developers..
Plus not easy to build a darkroom on a bus stip
Photomechanic… Damn iPhone ;)
reprimanded by the boss. okay : )-
———————
Jenny again.. the only “boss” here is our own consciousness ..
I’m sure you are not referring to David as the boss..
Who is the boss then??
No boss here…
Jenny, I guess I’ll have to live with it.. although I do think I have answered your questions.
Hi Panos :)
The archive talk makes me most of all ponder one question: what value has a photograph..
Anton, love the nawiz and the rooms. Had to quit watching the rooms. The rats and bugs were beginning to creep me out. I sent the nawiz to my grandson who is really into drawing this type of illustrations and interested in the art form. Thanks.
Lee
“the very best in YOUR opinion … 500 or less i imagine …”
Or maybe 50, maybe … :)) But as I am going back through the mess of the last four years to attempt to amass a coherent portfolio for the first time, I do find a few forgotten nuggets between nearly perpetual cringe-worthies that while painful to look at also makes me appreciate that slowly, slowly I have progressed just a bit. All that one could hope for really, along with all the newfound archive space of course.
Good question Eva. The value, according to my cousin who is a painter, of a piece of work, photo or painting or sculpture, is what someone is willing to plunk down hard earned cash for. For me, value is what the piece speaks to me to plunk down the money and walk or drive to an exhibit or click on a link. Value is expressed by many things aside from money. How much you are willing to invest in it time or money or space, and then there is the value that the producer of the photo or art piece receives from just doing the work. How valuable is it for a photographer to realize the answer to a question they have by seeing it materialize in a body of work? Priceless.
ANTON
I liked the last one best! Fascinating! Thanks so much! : )
PANOS
Unless you want to encourage Eva to respond to the small requests made to her which are on this very page, please stay out of this. It would be nice if you would do that, if you felt like it. I think it is perfectly fair that I stop answering her questions and ignore her and find her jumping in on questions which are not put to her very irritating anyway…
Hi Jenny, isn’t this a forum for the group to discuss things?
There are no private questions, everyone is free to give an opinion on any of it, that’s what makes things interesting, we hear lots of different points of view…..no one should have to worry about speaking out of turn….
Jenny lynn walker I have to say this..dont you ever just shut up? For all your dalai llamma blah blahh rhetoric you just come across like Jim p on amphetamines. Sorry…..and sorry Jim, love you really.
BURNIANS,
hey, the journey don’t forget the journey…
focus my BURNING people,focus…
what can I say…yesterday,my energy level was extremely low…
I was an unhappy civilian…till I met one guy ,stuck in his chair…for the rest
of his life on this planet…and he was smiling, he was smiling from his soul…
and I said to myself…
WTF …are you thinking civilian…what’s wrong with you…???
so my beloved BURNIANS…focus,focus,focus…not in your egosoul BUT in your
UniverseSoul…let’s embrace our differences and let’s celebrate our co-existenses…
cause in the end we are all …just a dust in the wind…
I will try to start smiling from my soul…i will try…
let’s have a wine ,beer,coco,milk…I am going for my farting session…
and don’t forget …the bar has been raised…
pfff…got to go…drinks on me…pfffI will be back…open the windows…and your hearts
damnit…
LOVE YOU ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
CIVI
Where are you???? Don’t be low!!! We love and miss you so much!!! Sending you a million hugs. Please smile. xxxx
ALL (MINUS DAVID ALAN HARVEY & ANTON)
If so many people would not jump in on others questions, you would hear 20 times less of me. I have been brought up to answer questions put to me and as so many people persistently jump in on questions that are not put to them – such as Eva and Charles today – I have to choose whether to answer their questions which were none of their business or be rude to them? When I answer their questions, I get accused of taking up too much Burn airtime and if I don’t answer them, it is just plain rude like Eva here.
I am in a Golden State…
JENNY…low and down is in my agenda…I am a human…
you are a good soul…I wanna have a drink session with you:)))
cause you remind me of myself …when I am lost in translation…
BUT I have to suggest something …just a suggestion…
breath my lady…I am sending good energy…
whatever is in your soul and makes you feel weird..just let it go…
I try to let go… painful baggage…
painful transformation indeed…
we are with YOU…BURN it’s about vision…and YOU have a vision…
just let go…send me a smile…breath when you type…
we are next to you…
P.S and when I will be back to Grecoland…come over…we will have some ouzo time…
just to throw our defences …off road…:))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
BURNIANS…CHARLES,MIKER…and ALL…thanks for keeping me posted
internet off and on…THE JOURNEY…ahhhh,the journey
Wow, chill and just hang. It also improves photo work.
CIVI
I love and miss you and I know Lee does too. I so miss your presence here on Burn. We are thinking of you, sending you armfuls of warmth and loving energy and miss, miss, missing you. I’m not big on drinking but of course would love to meet you. Be safe. We are all thinking of you.
I am sorry but I am weary of people who jump in to answer questions I put to other people – it is a waste of precious time and I feel their intentions are neither pure nor kind.
vicky slater
isn’t this a forum for the group to discuss things?
There are no private questions, everyone is free to give an opinion on any of it..
———-
Vicky , yes indeed.. This is STILL. An open forum..
Private questions on private emails..:)
Again Jenny , you can’t expect to instigate and tease people and expect no answer or commenting back..
Either email the individuals and privately discuss with them..
Or do not try to moderate this forum and dictate how conversations are done.. You can’t expect for anyone to put a set of rules and the rest just follow.. Especially on someone elses blog..
And that goes for all of us..
I can Start a personal conversation with Tom Hyde for example but there is no way not to expect that DAH or John Gladdy or Pete or anyone not to jump in..
At any time they want or like..
In an open forum that exactly the point is… For anyone to chime in
Without tip toeing..
I am sorry but I am weary of people who jump in to answer questions I put to other people – it is a waste of precious time and I feel their intentions are neither pure nor kind.
——–
I used to have a friend that loved to go and spend much time in Stripclubs.. The Paradox was that he always complained about how the girls (strippers) would be over aggressive and all about money… Well , that is their job I answered.. They have to pay rent.. They sell lapdances.. If u don’t like that go to a sportsbar..
I never beel able to convince him how simple it really is..
Just don’t go to stripclubs.. If u find the girls aggressive.. How about church instead?
But you can’t go to stripclubs and expect for them to be overly heavily dressed..
I personally love and understand strippers.. Most of them are pretty decent people… Working hard for the daily bread or fill up that lamborginni tank..
Well same here.. All of us , photo whores in an open forum…
Poles everywhere.. Chose your own pole and do your exotic erotic dance.. But not expect others not to watch.. Or comment on your dance moves
I went to a strip club once and I have been to male strip shows. Fabulous. However, unlike strip clubs, male strip shows (the ones I’ve been to) have not allowed men in. Ah, now I have to go find that photo of me on their laps after the show…..
In other words the word is EXPOSURE..
most celebrities know that very well..
You expose yourself , you get judged and sometimes slapped..
It comes with the territory …
Most strippers are pretty honest..
They do a job and u expected to pay..
You can’t go to a strip joint and then complain you’ve been sexually harrassed???!!!???
Okay back from the beach. Lovely summer day….
Jenny, by “ordinary” we mean not feeling more important or somehow above our subjects because we are photographers (with a capitol P). Can’t believe I really have to explain this too you.
My 91 year old grandfather is the most Buddha like person I’ve ever known. Just enjoys life and I’ve never heard him say a bad word about anyone. He wouldn’t know the Dalai Lama from a Peruvian lama to save his life. Never read a self help book or om’ed an om – absolutely nothing touchy feely, save the whales, crystal kissery about him (no he doesn’t call himself a spiritual person). Just an ordinary, great man.
But I’ve known some yogi, meditator, all enlightened one, Burning Man,Indian ashram types that insist on only eating granola massaged by lactating earthmothers that are also the biggest self centered assholes on the planet. Go figure…..
Just sayin.’
And yes, this is an open forum/discussion. Ask questions please, but expect if others feel they can add then they have the right too. It works that way.
Charles
I’m sorry Panos, but I think that giant chip on your shoulder is blocking you from seeing the truth. Jenny is the only one here who fully understands how to communicate online and she is right that we need an extensive set of rules to guide us. Everyone else, myself included, constantly makes egregious errors that have turned the comment section of Burn into a horrible source of embarrassment for Jenny, so of course she is always upset with the barnyard nature of our discourse. And Frankly, we deserve all the vitriol she directs our way. And furthermore, I think our poor communication skills and boorish behavior show that we may not be entirely right in the head. Of course I can only speak for myself in this matter, but reading Jenny rightfully upbraid us for our repeated failures certainly makes me want to self-medicate.
Sorry for being negative towards all you horrible people who are not Jenny. Rather than berate you, which would be redundant after Jenny has done such a fine job, I’d like to suggest a positive solution. Jenny, since you have only been to 60 or so countries out of over 190 in the world, why don’t you consider traveling to one and writing up a comprehensive set of rules for how to communicate on Burn? Somewhere very, very remote would be ideal for such an important task. The last thing you would want would be an internet connection to distract you. From my own travels, I can recommend the Assekrem monastery about 80 kilometers outside of Tamanrasset in southern Algeria. No distractions there and the heat will do you good. In such an austere, spiritual environment I’ve no doubt whatsoever you could come up with an appropriate set of rules. It could be 100 pages, 500, or maybe even 1000! A rule for every possible sentence. And if it takes one year, five years or even ten — it would be worth it. We are so badly in need of rules. Especially you, Panos.
Yes.. If not Rules at least a MANIFEST god damn it..
MW totally agreed..
( damn my Enormous shoulder CCD chip needs cleaning again.. black spots everywhere..:)
Charles true..
Usually the enlightened spiritual people never call themselves that way.. You will never hear the Dalai L.. Telling people he is Buddha or spiritual or anything..
He will call himself ordinary most probably..:)
“He wouldn’t know the Dalai Lama from a Peruvian lama to save his life.”
That made me laugh :)) And your experience has been mine as well, in general, except for the Dalai Lama himself who is a righteous dude.
“Not that I condone fascism, or any -ism for that matter. -Ism’s in my opinion are not good. A person should not believe in an -ism, he should believe in himself. I quote John Lennon, “I don’t believe in Beatles, I just believe in me.” Good point there. After all, he was the walrus. I could be the walrus. I’d still have to bum rides off people.” – Ferris Bueller
Stumbled over this on Lighstalkers, perhaps somebody might be interested:
http://www.lightstalkers.org/posts/photographer-needed-in-ny-october
“And sometimes you just got to take the day off and have a look around.” Ferris Bueller
Off to the river with a tennis ball and a dog.
I don’t comment too often, but read most of the comments on here, and most of them are great. But I’m with John Gladdy – my god Jenny, really do you never shut up? your obnoxious comments just drown out everything else. It’s so damn much that it’s hard to skip.
Carsten: How sad that you only feel able to come here to make such a comment and not to contribute something of value? How about adding something to todays discussions on one of the following topics as I have done:
1) Archiving
2) Multi-media
3) Today’s links
Waiting with bated breath…
Jenny – contribute something of value the way you do? Honestly, can’t say your comments have been of value either, so silence might be a good option for you to consider as well, just as it is for me.
PANOS: I have asked Eva 3 times for a link to her website. That is all. What is the problem with you guys. You all seem a little tense and wound up.
Carsten: Still waiting with bated breath…
Jenny: keep waiting. You’re just proving my point. Silence is golden sometimes, you know. Feel free to have the last word, I’m out.
Eglon me old mate, I remember asking someone to post some images but she sorta said she had nothing to show and preferred to jaw grind.
CARSTEN/CHARLES/PANOS/JOHN/MW
1) Archiving
2) Multi-media
3) Other links
something to do with photography perhaps????
MW,
Ya got me chuckling with that one….
TOM,
And yes, most true (and not wannabe) monks I’ve met are totally righteous with great senses of humor and a decided absence of new age smugness.
CP
Hey Eglon I hear you have problem sleeping there this chickie babe on burn that loves to go on and on read and it will save you coming down from those mandies…………… zzzzzzzzzzzz
JENNY,
Hmmm, funny thing is I’ve been posting about photography all along but you don’t seem to recall those ones do you? I would love to discuss these things more in depth just so long as the discussion doesn’t always evolve into the Jenny Lynn show with pointed questions and self righteous suppositions.
Anyway, gotta go. Really. Back later.
CP
CARSTEN/CHARLES/PANOS/JOHN/MW/IMANTS
1) Archiving
2) Multi-media
3) Other links
something to do with photography perhaps????
JENNY…
i do not know what the problem is, but you would appear to most to be bordering on hysteria…as Charles and others have suggested many times…take a deep breath, read carefully, think before you write…you have offended a number of very nice people , including the 100% nicest person on this forum , Eva……you go from harsh to euphoric in seconds or minutes….none of this is surely your intent and maybe not even your fault, but please please…..many thanks…
cheers, david
“And yes, most true (and not wannabe) monks I’ve met are totally righteous with great senses of humor and a decided absence of new age smugness”
The most non-judgemental and open-minded person I’ve met was an 84 year old Catholic nun I did a story about. We’ve become good friends too. If you spend an hour or two with her and don’t come away feeling motivated and uplifted then you’d probably need to check your pulse to ensure you’re still alive.
One of my friends asked me if I knew of any life coaches; I said go see Sister and spend an hour working with her in her big vege garden; that should do the trick! :-)
DAVID ALAN HARVEY
Hysteria. Not at all. Perhaps look back at the comments? : )
Woke up this morning knowing that I had finished my last magazine deadline for the year last night. A feeling of relief and trepidation knowing that it’s kicking off a new chapter of work. Hopefully; if all goes to plan; approx 12 months of project work. Interspersed wit a few articles for the mags that have looked after me well, no strict deadlines or magazine “treadmill work”
Actually; I feel exactly the same as the day I handed in my notice at the supermarket before going freelance. Sorta calm, but nervous, excited with a hint of trepidation, accompanied by a “shit, I’ve done it now” feeling! Also; a bit of I hope I’m good enough to pull this off…. Time will tell :-)
JENNY…
i did read the comments…i read what i wrote to you , what you wrote back twisting things for no reason…the same with the others…..you twist…you create drama/conflict where there was none….simple as that..not only my opinion..now, please do as you said you were going to do..take a few days off from Burn….again, thank you…
ROSS
Congratulations! I’m really excited for you! I remember exactly those feelings when I finished my last magazine deadline. I was working on bi-monthly issues, you? Wishing you all you need for your dream to come true! The most non-judgemental and open-minded person I’ve met was my grandmother!
DAVID ALAN HARVEY
I already took 2 days off. I am working on archiving now. : )
DAVID ALAN HARVEY
Please could you show me evidence of the ‘twisting’ – perhaps there is a simple communication problem that underlies it? For example Eva. If you look, you will see that I have very politely asked her for a link to her website 3 times but she has still not added one.
ANTON..
thanks amigo for the links…and for emphasizing the real definition and superlative efforts in multi media…i have not had time to view all, but will…in the meantime , i just stopped at home to pick up some batteries and i am going back out simply taking pictures…no sound, no video…there is still something to be said for just the joy of taking/making pictures as i am sure you will agree…on the other hand, for those who imagine themselves actually practicing photography as a profession, the tools of multi-media should be embraced…for most of us that means having a small crew..but some of you may be able to handle in all alone…i can barely do what i do, so i will not take on anything else…in any case, exciting times for sure…ok, light will fade soonest…jumping on my bike…i mean a bike and a GF1 is not a bad way to spend the afternoon…peace and many thanks amigo…
cheers, david
JENNY..
really STOP IT…
you driving the opposite way on the freeway and u blame the 100000 cars that go the WRONG WAY..
u know I love u and always had your back but I’m feeling that I’m in a bar, you are way drunk out of your mind and I’m trying to take your car keys away…
Either give me your car keys and get a taxi.. Otherwise you are abusing our friendship..
Stop getting embarrassed..
This is is really hysterical and nobody has Amy fun anymore..
Thank you Jenny
Any fun (I meant )… You can’t tell people what to do.. Can’t order them .. 1,2..3 rules..
Ridiculous.. Tell people what they should discuss or whatever..
And I feel sad I’m the one that has to tell u that.. Coz I’m an advocate for free speech,,
But you are not.. Stop acting like a fucking Taliban cutting peoples ears and noses off…
ENOUGH
You are so welcome Ross. You should celebrate tonight! : )
If half a chicken laid half an egg
how long would it take a grasshopper
to kick the seeds out of a dill pickle?
If you happen to be passing through
Rome, GA., Floyd County, US, between
Aug 23 and Sep 17, come see my show http://www.photomara.com/twoeightflyerweb2.jpg
at the Berry College Moon Gallery.
Hope this helps move things along.
The PGA championship is true drama.
Peace, Love, R&R
woo.. waa.. woo… waa…
grow archive.. cut bio.. grow beyond wide.. cut hair.. grow beard..
hmm – think i’ll dance to my own tune.
enjoying commission.. in verdun now..
having trouble settling into the pace of this one, although getting there.
..used to things moving faster and being able to get straight into it..
being closer the subject.
still..
woo.. waa.. woo.. waa..
DAVID AH
yes absolutely right… even if multimedia or design is an end goal, NOTHING will beat or interfere with the pure feeling you get when packing the lightest bag, one camera one lens, a good attitude an open mind and a moleskine notebook… knowing that five minutes later you’re in the good light with the most interesting people you can imagine…
… off you go :-)
hugs
a
DAVID B
good luck on your assignment my friend… a pity i couldn’t join in…
fly like the wind
a
…
…
…
if you don’t understand the joke, you are the butt of it…
…
…
…
(quote – H.H. the peruvian lama)
anton T.G.
there have been easier.. much easier..
will be driving south tomorrow and on the outskirts of paris friday night.. saturday day 20th..
you?
email..
or better text as i only have interweb for the night.
+47 91540847
… on the upside, i managed to work an upgrade from a vw polo to a mercedes using nothing but ‘the force’ and a short term memory..
.. now.. where did i leave ‘the zone’.. ?
ahh – found it .
was under a pile of useless diatribe and too-ing and fro-ing about this and that, utterly disguised under a ball of dead skin cells.
have to keep moving to live n breath..
:o)
While I will admit that I can get tired of the back and forth nonsense that can be posted here, I will have to say that positively the LAST THING BURN NEEDS ARE RULES FOR POSTING.
I mean really, are you kidding? The forum needs to be open and the ideas and discussion free flowing.
I do think part of the problem is that people spend too much time discussing and arguing here when they should be out shooting. No photographer ever made a decent photo by talking.
“No photographer ever made a decent photo by talking”
Too true; just heading out to do that now! :-)
“Photography is nothing – it’s life that interests me.” ~ Henri Cartier-Bresson
DAVID ALAN HARVEY
Slightly off-topic and call it intuition, but I feel this list of the ways that men abuse women may be useful and think this is the perfect venue, and time, to be sharing it:
Putting women down
Playing mind games
Trying to make women think they are crazy
Trying to make women feel guilty
Calling women names
Shifting responsibility for behaviour
Saying women are the cause of the behaviour
So what are you saying Jenny? You attacked Eva because she’s a woman?
Women Abuse Men the same way..
I know a few “white” rich ladies from Malibu
that have lots of boy toys and man slaves..
Are you the Representative of all Abused women?
Why not talk on behalf of abused men.. If u really wanna be fair..
I’m sure lots of euro ladies visit Africa,
Thailand, Vietnam or other exotic
Locations just to buy sex and boytoys..
In Greece happens all the time in summertime on the islands..
North European expired beauties (cougars) come to Greece to buy sex.. The Greek boy toys call themselves “kαμακια)..
They usually accept all forms of payments but mainly love jewelry..
Yes really.. If men is the problem then why a woman attacks Eva???
Jenny
please calm down, this is becoming very silly.
i’ve resisted feeding your ego but enough is enough…
And Jenny since you got the attention u needed once again..
What really bothers you? You keep blaming everything to “man abused a woman” mantra..
Is there a story you want to share??
Coz every conversation u got involved since the “black girl essay”
It all comes down to “man abuses woman” thing…
Sorry if u have been abused in childhood or later.. I don’t want/need to know but it’s so naive you only see the one side only..
And it’s pretentious that u never thought that abuse exist and practiced by both sexes..
Unfortunately..
With the same rules you described above..
Especially “mind games”
Regarding Anton’s “multimedia” links, I’ll keep an open mind and look at them in depth tomorrow when I’m at “work” and have a fast internet connection and plenty of leisure time, but at first glance I don’t see that they have much to do with still photography. They seem to be primarily video and design oriented pieces that may or may not utilize a still photo or two. Nothing to do whatsoever with 99 percent of the conversation that goes on here. No offense Imants. Your 1 percent is very insightful and I enjoy it more than 24.8 percent of the rest.
But even on their own terms, they strike me as poorly produced from a technical standpoint. Perhaps I’m missing something, wouldn’t be the first time obviously, but I have some experience preparing video files for the internet and I see no reason why most of these files are so large for the small amount of screen space they use. And a lot of it is fairly pedestrian After Effects stuff. Though it doesn’t really matter how it’s produced and even after I pay serious attention, even if I think it’s the greatest art since Caravaggio, it’s unlikely I’ll have much to say about artistic merit, I’m kind of a whatever turns you on kinda guy in that respect, but still, I don’t see how they are more than distantly related to still photography. And still photography will never evolve into that kind of thing without disappearing entirely, and there’s a word for the likelihood of that coming to pass, which is “nagonnahappen.”
No, I think those are more accurately characterized as “interactive media” than “multimedia.” Nothing wrong with that, of course. But “multimedia” is an umbrella term for a lot of different art forms. Still photographers need to focus on how elements from other forms of media can best be used to enhance the presentation of still photography, not create something else entirely.
DAH –
David, don’t smoke, don’t smoke, don’t smoke that cigarette!
Ah, hell. If Obama can smoke a cigarette, then I suppose you can too. You’ve already missed the early grave, anyway.
I’m in a train all.. I left Venice and I’m on my way for the top of the San bernardino mountains..
I’ll be approaching the lake in a couple of hours..
6:30pm y’all in Los Angeles..
Good night from the city of Angels and Demons
Took a fantastic photo of Felix this afternoon… raised the bar on myself. Definitely a singles submission, celebrating summertime.
Best to all, and Felix says “bye bye.”
Charles – Please. I want to see the shot of Felix.
But then if you post a link to it that might make it less likely to win a singles slot, you think?
Yet, I want to see it.
DAH, how about switching to a pipe? Especially if you’re smoking this vanilla-flavored drugstore tobacco I’m smoking this evening, you will be getting minimum nicotine. Plus, you have to re-light so often, it makes you just want it down in resignation…
Best of luck to you :-)
-Justin
…put it down, that is.
When I haven’t been able to read this forum for awhile, I tend to start with the most recent comment, scroll up and read backwards.
Anyway, I see that a significant part of the discussion seems to have been devoted to a suggestion to implement “rules.” I did not scroll far enough upwards to actually find the rules suggested, but I think it would be fine to implement rules.
It is always fun to break rules. If rules were to be imposed here, we could all break them often. It would be great fun and would make the forum more interesting.
I say, go for it. The more rules to break, the better.
I did make it to Anton’s links, but I am not rested up enough to make any sense of any of it and some of them misfired, anyway. Maybe another time.
Now I think I will go to Dairy Queen and buy a banana split. I especially like it when a bit of strawberry syrup leaks into the chocolate fudge and mixes with the cracked nuts.
Best to all, and Felix says “bye bye.”
———
It is very obvious that Felix is at least 10 trillion times smarter than me…
Why? Coz he is 40 years younger than me and he has the balls to be able to say “bye bye” when he feels that he has to…
I don’t.. Ask my abusive girlfriend :(
Bill..:)
I’m writing the manifest as we speak..
But here are the 7 golden rules of what NOT TO DO TO A WOMAN..
(but feel free to break those rules when it comes to a man- but u have to be a woman to be able to do that therefore you heavily disqualify)…
GOLDEN RULES ( only 7 for now but more coming;)
Putting women down
Playing mind games
Trying to make women think they are crazy
Trying to make women feel guilty
Calling women names
Shifting responsibility for behaviour
Saying women are the cause of the behaviour
Editors note:
The rules above do NOT apply to women..
(exception to the rule: feel free to abuse Eva… but again ONLY if are a woman…
Listen up all of you women abser/haters up in here:
Burn most important rule:
“Do not hijack the thread and pay attention to me when I speak..
Pay attention to me and never never never make me ask the same question twice.. Coz then you will be tortured and mr.John Vink will do another Khmer Rouge story and even make a portrait..;)”
Speaking of John.. Long time no see..
I wonder how he archives his work?
Big hug yall
Hope this is helpful for you DAH.
When I gave up tobacco I found it helpful to give up slowly, over a period of a couple of months or more. By slowly breaking down the habitual ritual of smoking, I in turn started breaking down the psychological tie to smoking, as well as the physical need for a nicotine hit.
The technique that was most helpful to me was, when I felt like a smoke I would put it off for just 5 minutes, so I wouldn’t feel stressed by the idea of not allowing myself to have one, but rather just delaying it for a few minutes. This was particularly helpful in breaking the habits when having one with a beer, a coffee, or after a meal. Breaking down those associations. After a week or so I started forgetting about that cigarette for longer than the 5 minutes. Along with that, due to building up my confidence that it was OK not to have a cigarette, I slowly started reducing the number I’d smoke in a day. This started happening quite naturally anyway as time went bye, as it got to the point where I’d forget about that cigarette I was going to have for an hour or more.
I found that as my sense of smell and taste came back smoking started to become less enjoyable, to the point (after breaking and untying all those ritualized habits) I started to feel repulsed by them and I just simply did not want to smoke one anymore.
PS David, hope I haven’t read to much in to previous comments above about you smoking.
1) Archiving
Well, I open drawer with cutlery and I find a films. What can I say about archiving???… don’t put films to the sink and books you never read.
2) Multi-media
Bosz… I should say something wise… but I know nothing about multimedia… ok, multimedia is important part of work every contemporary photographer… ufff
3) Other links
I can put some links to songs on youtube 8D
something to do with photography perhaps????
hmmmm…. teasing in comments have something to do with photography, isn’t it?
David is always teasing with me and he is The Photographer, and I am sometimes teasing with him, and Panos with everybody…. :)))))
perhaps????
… knowing that five minutes later you’re in the good light with the most interesting people you can imagine…
….and, then, in walks Jenny :>))
Panos: I basically have two harddisks, one for RAWS and one for TiFFs (which includes developed Tiffs and the scans from analog negs). Both are backed up about three times (had too much trouble with failing harddisks in the past) on separate harddisks, one set being in Brussels which gets updated once a year, and two sets over here which get an update almost daily (yes, I am seeing a LOT of progress bars). A copy of all the Tiffs is also on the Magnum server. My negs are stored in the Magnum Paris cold room.
I started digitising my analog archive back in 1994, with a homemade database in Filemaker, using the unique Magnum number (neat, almost everything since 1968 is now captioned and dated and more or less keyworded). And this is I believe the third or fourth time I am rescanning (and respotting) the same negs. Boring and time-consuming…
Since Lightroom 2 I started switching from iView Media Pro and that switch is now completed. My two databases (RAWs and TIFFs) are now in Lightroom 3 but on very rare occasions I still use Photoshop (CS2) (basically for spotting and cleaning scans before importing them into Lightroom) or iView (to generate XML files when I upload a new story on my website).
DAH. Simply stop sucking butts and having bad breath. It is so much easier than you think.
Just walked in from a shoot; three hours with a family. One of those hours helping one of the kids with her homework and another hour helping mum pick out a camera. You can never work out how a shoot will go!
Panos: “I’m sure lots of euro ladies visit Africa” And Bali for the Kuta Cowboys…. :-)
MARCIN!
no worries about the multimedia my friend… I posted them with no other intention than to show some samples of pieces that inspire me as a photographer… just like books inspire me… or many other things.
If you watch them, and they can inspire you in some tiny way, great! If not, no harm done…
cheers
a
Anton,
Your links are great!!
put more from time to time please.
Münchausen syndrome is a term for psychiatric disorders known as factitious disorders wherein those affected feign disease, illness, or psychological trauma in order to draw attention or sympathy to themselves. It is also sometimes known as hospital addiction syndrome or hospital hopper syndrome. Nurses sometimes refer to them as frequent flyers, because they return to the hospital just like frequent flyers return to the airport. However, there is discussion to reclassify them as somatoform disorder in the DSM-5 as it is unclear whether people are conscious or not of drawing attention to themselves.[1]
John , super thank you..
I’m gonna study your comment above:)))
ANTON,
I try again. :) Do you use the same software for the (long term) archive you are using for the development?
If so, is it a separate library or within the same?
hey Thomas,
sorry if I missed your question amigo…
for the long term “DEF” archive I basically believe that it should be able to work without software (just a folder structure per project with metadata embedded per file if possible), and that any software which can read metadata should be able to search, like Adobe Bridge. Mainly because I have not only images in there, but also design, text, video, html,…
It seems I kind of need a Digital Asset Management tool in addition to an Image Management Tool…
If I only created and stored photographs, it would be much easier! I think Finder/Adobe Bridge for overall cataloging of projects, and Lightroom/Photomechanic combo for images… two different ways into different parts of the same content
hmm good question… how to solve that one? It’s almost like combining the archive system of a design agency (strict folder structure) with the one of a photographer (catalog files).
cheers
a
Comic book artists I as in comics not animators have successfully embraced the wwwdot media with stills, so what Anton is showing is way of thinking and it is worth your while to keep that grey matter open to new ways.
As for me, please refer to me as 1% I never was nor will be a photographer so I am free to do 99% of whatever…………….
Anton you have to find a way of automating it all
Anton,
ANTON,
no problem .. :)
My thoughs are around the same. I don’t have as many files as you, but searching a single picture if all I have is a directory structure and a browsing tool seems not enough to me.
There are DAM tools in the open source arena, which some of them look quite good.
here is a review site, which discusses most of them:
http://www.opensourcedigitalassetmanagement.org/
I have an old pc somewhere and want to set it up as archive ..
IMANTS
yea exactly the reason why I posted… inspiration… keep the grey matter open…
about automating. Yes a tough one, I hope if i have my (folder) system in place (more than anything, it’s an abstract way of thinking anyway), it will become an automatism for me with every new project, in that way also hopefully defeating the need for too much software
THOMAS
very good link, will investigate! Yes I also do feel the inadequacy of the “browser”, although they are gaining power very fast… e.g. the Mac Finder now displays IPTC and keywords… interesting
cheers
a
This all could end up as one very weird ride on the net as consumers are outnumbered by those that post who in turn transform into digital managers of information
ANTON,
yes the Finder is quite nice and Spotlight can also index your files. However, I expect from a DAM solution to be stronger in finding files by appling quite complex searchqueries. (Which, of course makes keywording and captioning quite important.)
Ehm.
Perhaps I’d better shut up.. but kinda feel funny reading through the comments.. so to clarify:
David AH, you’ve got that down wrong, I’m not nice, you gotta trust me on that one, I know myself since some years now, but thank you!
Jenny, you have put out a request for a link to my website, asking if I had posted one, and I have answered by saying: no, I haven’t posted one (and don’t plan to). Hope that qualifies as an answer.
Whomever (is that a word?) it might concern: I do not feel attacked, offended or abused in any way, nor do I think I have attacked, offended or abused anyone. If you feel I have then I’m sorry about that, it was not in my intentions.
Last.. Charles, you owe me a new keyboard.. well, either you or the Peruvian lama ;))
JOHN V
Thankfully we have Anton here, fully focused on the job and not distracted or responding to different energies including in ALL the unhealthy ways mentioned. A good role model. Now let’s just see how many people cannot control themselves enough to jump in to comment on this comment made to you… on with the archiving…
ANTON
Thanks a lot!
Another day, same thing.
I hope you are archiving Vicky!!!
EVA
Thanks for responding to the questions from yesterday morning! Much appreciated.
JOHN VINK
“I still use Photoshop (CS2) (basically for spotting and cleaning scans before importing them into Lightroom)”
Have you tried the spot removal tool in Lightroom? It works quite well and if you have a group of images with a spot that appears in the same place (dust on sensor) SUPPOSEDLY you can fix one image and then apply the fix to the others automatically. I have not tried that part, but I do remove all spots in Lightroom.
“Slightly off-topic and call it intuition, but I feel this list of the ways that men abuse women may be useful and think this is the perfect venue, and time, to be sharing it:”
example below ;)
Jenny, no problem.. also ’cause I’ve gave you the very same answer already yesterday.. would be nice if we could move on, thanks very much.. so, as Civi would say: what are you shooting?
EVA…
so pleased to hear you are not all that “nice”…whew!! good.. :) i was only referring to your decorum on this forum anyway…
JENNY…
as i am sure you know, my time here on Burn is limited….and the “comments” section is where i spend the least amount of my time working on Burn…i come here just to see how the commentators are doing and to answer the occasional question….only about 25-30 out of the thousands who spend several minutes on Burn each day leave comments and i think less than 1% even click on comments…in private emails and in surveys of various kinds, i find the comment section is distasteful to many readers…why? because it is almost impossible to keep the comments on a high level…we have managed to eliminate trolls here, but still the comment section is often the low point of my photographic life…in other words, publishing Burn is not publishing the comment section…i am taking the time to write this one last comment to you Jenny, but i am afraid i know deep down that it will simply go into the abyss of an endless and wasteful dialogue between us….looking at your work or submissions to Burn will of course be something i will always do without fail and to the very best of my ability…
both Anton and i have wrestled since the beginning with keeping comments going..most photo magazines do not have a comment section..most have their blogs, if they even have blogs, quite apart from the content of the magazine…so it is indeed a privilege that could go away with the click of a button…we did away with the one comment voluntary rule, but i guess it might have to come back unless at least some self monitoring is employed…the private emails i receive from colleagues are always telling me to eliminate comments…my sense of egalitarian representation and voice always wins out, but i am now looking again at this carefully…or, the other option for me is of course just to not participate personally…this seems a bit sad since i do enjoy a good chat and i hope am helpful to some who ask questions…
however, there is only so much time in a day, and again, who wants to spill wine on the ground??
my primary role here on Burn is to view new talent, edit their work if they so desire, and help to prepare for publication…the other role has been to choose some of this talent for publication in BURN 01…
i think you will see when viewing Burn or when and if you hold Burn 01 in your hands that talented women photographers are burning up the pages of both so to speak…including the cover by Yalda Pashai a 20 yr old college student from Toronto..
i have said this many times over the years, that my most talented and leading edge students are almost always invariably women..many young men are a bit too linear and many young women are much freer creatively…in any case, this is what i see in the classroom and my fellow teachers (both women and men) tell me this is their experience as well…later on in the professional world, many women do indeed drop out of the biz or move on towards family priorities or for reasons that i do not understand…yes, i am a man and do not even pretend to totally comprehend the nature of women…an adventure i savor, so this is not a disparaging word…this is one of the true joys of living i must add!!
in any case, i am about to publish here on Burn in the next few minutes the work of one of these talented women…
in her bio she neglected to mention she is also a mother….so she is a working mom, but probably did not put this in her bio because she just wants us to view the work…straight up…this work for sure will be controversial for you, but please talk to Elena, not to me….she will be followed in publication here on Burn by another woman who i feel is really going somewhere with her work…neither of these women do i mentor nor engage with in any way…zero….
they are simply talented and in my opinion creatively “hungry” photographers…
these women are serious photographers who put their work ahead of superfluous rhetoric or energies …they are fine creative role models and examples for men and for women…
ok, on with it…
cheers, david
Regarding the multimedia links, I didn’t mean to come off as ungrateful. I always appreciate pointers to interesting work in any medium. It’s just that they were presented as real, in italics, multimedia which seems to indicate superior since all multimedia is real multimedia per se. Although I am primarily interested in still photography centric multimedia in my own work, I enjoy seeing all kinds of things and spend quite a bit of time going to museums and galleries to see what’s out there.
Apparently, my internet connection was even slower than normal last night because those links play just fine here at work. Nevertheless, “time to load” is an important consideration for multimedia projects. As David mentioned the other day, when we click on a link and see that the video is 9 minutes, we balk at watching it. We have trouble watching a slide show with 50 slides that clocks in under 5 minutes. Three minutes seems about optimum for our attention spans for all things internet, so when something takes three minutes to load, it’s going to lose a lot of potential viewers.
Yes, we should definitely keep our grey matter open to new ways, and old ways, and old ways done newly, and any ole ways done any ole way. And as I meant to communicate above, the means of production do not an art project make. It’s all about the ends. But regarding the means of production for those pieces, they are hardly new, though the apps that are used to create them have certainly become much more powerful and refined. Still, people were doing similar conceptual work with animated gifs and other primitive means back in the early 90’s.
JOHN VINK…
i will never be as cynical as are you…tried it …doesn’t work…sorry
MW…
yes, indeed…nothing really new with so called “multi media”….just new to the internet…and, as you so correctly point out, the very best presentations just take too long to load..this is a tech problem that i assume will someday be solved…everything really cool that we want to do with Burn and with Magnum online, just isn’t practical or possible..things that to my mind should seem difficult are easy, and some things which would appear to me to be easy are impossible…so i am always on the phone with tech experts like Anton and Haik and a host of others to find out what can be done and what cannot…
by the way, i should be able to meet with you in person regarding multi media in late september , just before i do my loft workshop in nyc…make sense for you? and please also visit us at this time…..i will let you know when is most appropriate….
cheers, david
Pete M
Of course I know about the spotting in LR. I just find it more convenient to have the scan (not the RAWs) spotted before importing into LR. Unless you don’t mind having a whole series of ‘Snapshots’, you end up having this endless row of spot corrections in your LR ‘History’. These ‘Histories’ can be tricky: when you want to go back to one specific modification and teak that, you lose all the subsequent actiosn. That’s why, for scans of negs, there you’ll find no other modification in History with me than contrast, exposure, recovery and some burning and dodging.
JOHN VINK
Yes I see what you mean. I go to extra lengths to keep the sensor on my camera clean so I don’t have to deal with it much. Of course dust on film is a harder problem.
Any ipad dreaming going on………… love to move that way but the 1st generation is a bit iffy and not worth buying especially as an ebook
Still tempted I am, ………. but I ain’t hanging out like for a gaffer, casper grin
David, about the conversation, sure, I should be around in late September. About the visit, wow, thanks, that would be incredible.
About comments, and serial commenters, I think most of us are just writers who enjoy writing in response to thoughts and ideas presented by others. In the Tarkovsky book I’m reading, he talks about how that’s the only way he can write well. He says when he sits down to compose a piece all by himself, it comes out wooden and pretentious (something like that, I don’t have it in front of me). I’m kind of the same way and I suspect that’s true for a lot of us. Of course there are plenty of people in comments sections with other issues, no doubt, and they make all of us look bad. But what can you do? The eternal question of online dialog, eh?
I was about to say that you, being one of us serial commenters, would have trouble walking away from it, but that’s probably not true. This is the third comments section I’ve haunted in 15 years and in all of those years have probably been a regular commenter for only four or five. Apparently I enjoy it for awhile, then get bored and do other things. When it becomes the same people, myself included, saying the same things, it loses its luster. If I had more sense, I’d direct my writing energy to publication, get a little beer money and reputation, but you know, I’ve published some fairly provocative stuff on the processed mulch of dead trees, and it’s possible, even likely, that I’ll get more response to this brief note than I ever did to any of that. That’s what I like about it. The near real time give and take. And the endless learning opportunities. That’s certainly been true here. I’d guess there’s 50 links to interesting work for every one nasty comment.
Anyway, I hope you don’t pull the plug. The good here far, far, far outweighs the bad. But if that’s what you gotta do, I’m sure we’d all understand.
IMANTS..
i love the iPad…or, should i say way more than any other electronic mobile device…i am just trying to figure out how we can produce content for it…Burn should be iPad compatible within weeks….your work in particular which flows so nicely from print to internet so so lends itself to iPad or at least the potential of iPad or similar mobile device…
MW…
thanks Michael for your insights …i think you are quite correct…the “one bad apple” theory basically….yes indeed i am here as “one of you” but this is an entirely new experience for me and i never left any more than a few comments prior on any other blog and the whole experience wore out almost instantly for me…i do put a lot of time into “hard copy” publishing and my tricky thing is balancing the realities of publishing and shooting with the realities of time spent here on Burn……my lament comes when this balance is not so much time wise conflicted but when the experience simply become unpleasant or distasteful for whatever reasons…and admittedly this is personal and would vary from person to person…but personal is all i am talking about..and it is quite enjoyable as long as it is enjoyable and i do learn right along with everyone else…the best part, and i should mention the best part along with my laments, is that i have met a whole bunch of new people i would not have met otherwise…and internationally….so many of us who met here , have met in other countries and several writer/commentators here have literally helped me when on assignment in their respective countries or areas of expertise…i have tried to return the favors….so there is surely a good side…
i rarely rarely cut anyone “off”…it goes totally against my nature to do so…i do not think there would even be a Burn if others were not important to me…after all, Burn features the work of others, not of Anton or of me (although in the re-design we might jump in from time to time)…the energy i put into Burn could be put into my own work and this is always the danger of Burn in general….but teaching also has always been a balance in my career, hence Burn is a manifestation or expansion of the teaching….
i also always figure my former students are students for life…it has always been thus so…however, there are exceptions… and a disruptive attention seeking student will try every time to ruin the whole class…happens all the time….a really weird but predictable aspect of some human nature…..easy to fix in a real time class environment…harder online…
again, it is always about balance…if things are balanced , then all will be fine….many thanks for thinking…
PETER GRANT…
thanks for the no smoking thoughts….while i do now want a cigarette, i do not smoke and will not smoke…i am a serious compulsive addict who must go day by day or even minute by minute not smoking…even writing this makes me want a cigarette!! i have lived a couple of times “inside” drug rehab centers to do essays on recovering drug addicts of all kinds…i mean for weeks each time……a learned a few things in two different well known recovery centers….. one thing is the recovery rate is unbelievably low….like 9 out of 10 will go back to whatever it is they quit…the other thing is that at least for awhile many give up the booze, the drugs, whatever…but, nobody can quit smoking!! one serious heroin addict told me leaving heroin is a piece of cake compared to quitting smoking….caffeine is my other addiction, but it is relatively harmless i think and miraculously i can enjoy a cup of coffee without the accompanying cigarette…no small feat!!….and little or no alcohol for me these days….my quota was filled long ago…watching folks drink when you are not drinking is a fast cure for that one anyway….
cheers, david
DAH!
Please, just a MOMENT of your time… I know you shun tech-talk, and I understand why, but … but but but…
can you let us know what your GF1 setup is? I have one, and haven’t quite tamed it. Are you using only the 20mm 1.7 lens, or the zoom? Or third party (i.e. leica) lenses? Do you use an optical viewfinder, or have you managed somehow to work with only the screen on back… which I find difficult when it’s bright outside.
I have a sigma viewfinder on mine, however I have found it to be fairly INaccurate.
It’s a great little camera, shoots lovely files, but I’m finding it difficult to operate fluidly.
Can’t wait to see this OBX story of yours, sometimein 2011 I would guess.
Thank you so very much; enjoy your day on the coast.
DQ!
Imants wrote,
“Any ipad dreaming going on………… love to move that way but the 1st generation is a bit iffy and not worth buying especially as an ebook”
Once the Gen 1 growing pains have been worked out I’m sure the iPad will create opportunities
for publishing and distribution currently unavailable.
You might have seen it yourself over at Lightstalkers a couple of weeks ago but one photographer has
headed down that path.
I don’t have an ipad so don’t know how the content plays out but check out :
http://www.thecollectivepublishinghouse.com/
DQ
I picked up the GF-1 a little over a week ago and find it to be the most liberating
small camera I’ve used in a long time.
Quality, with the 20 1.7, is excellent and 16 x 20 prints easily hold their own against prints
produced with an M8.
I set mine up,first, with the Voigtlander 40mm external rectangular viewfinder, but found the framing to be
a little too tight so I switched to a Voigtlander 35mm external metal viewfinder and find this match to
be near perfect. Maybe it’s because I wear eyeglasses that the 40mm seemed inaccurate but…this works.
I rarely use the LCD (unless you want to blend somewhere by looking like an amateur) and set the
autofocus on the camera to center point. Compose ‘normally’ through the external finder knowing that
the center is the focus point and adjust framing with that in mind.
Wanting something wider to pair with the 20mm I tested out voigtlanders 12mm (24mm equiuvalent)
but found the resulting file quality to definitely be a step down in terms of technical sharpness
and resolving power. Decent but not worth the money.
FYI, if you use the Voigt rectangular finders note that the pop up flash is blocked by the finder
DAVID ALAN HARVEY
Many thanks for the explanation – except for the last line if you are lumping me into the category of those who create superfluous rhetoric.
EVA
Thanks again Eva. I once asked 4 times for an answer from DAH to a question but normally if I don’t get an answer after asking twice, I don’t ask again. I was genuinely interested to see your work but after 3 requests, I no longer am, but happy you like the new essay.
DQ
i have no aversion to tech talk and answer all questions that i see….sometimes i miss if i am not around for a couple of days……i do always answer your questions i think, but never know whether you actually read them or not..regarding tech, it is just that i have so few things i know anything about and so little equipment that i use, that i can contribute little to most conversations…however, the GF1 is a favorite…i use the Voightlander 40mm optical (as per recommended by C. Peterson and others)and i only bought the 1.7 20mm….so really simple and really easy to think about and use…i did originally buy the electronic viewfinder and used it once…no good….
we have made 30 x40 inch prints from this camera even shooting at iso 1600…however, i would not recommend going past iso 400 unless you must…on auto iso i think it won’t take you past 800 , which is a pretty good indicator of where the camera designers want you to be anyway (it goes to 3200)…..not as good in the low light as the larger cameras…at 1600 the reds break up badly on 30 x40’s on close inspection although at normal viewing distance , we have some nice prints at that iso..
i guess the workhorse cameras are still the D700 and 5D…but i just cannot work with those “horses” most of the time…so damned large and obtrusive imo…..last night i was shooting at an outdoor ice cream bar with families, lovers, all kinds of tourists where there was no way i could explain to everyone who i was and what i was doing….just too many folks and i needed to be in their face so to speak…because of the GF1 i could “dance” in among everyone…move shoot, move shoot, sip my choc shake in my left hand, and move shoot with my right…it was dark, so i was working off the back screen…could not have done what i was doing, work the way i was working, with my D700…too noisy, big, awkward, aggressive…….the GF1 seems playful, innocent…..fun to shoot with this camera…not for everything, but surely for a lot of the type of work i do and absolutely the best ice cream bar camera around
cheers, david
MTOMALTY…
yes, this is interesting stuff….and we of course have been thinking about the same thing for Burn…i must say we have much better content as i think you can even see from the promo you linked….our only problem is that neither Anton nor i want to drop our photography to do anything more with Burn time wise than we do now…turning Burn into a net collective of some sort , which is an obvious move particularly after you see Burn 01, would take someone else running it…that would be a full on full time job….my efforts will go into evolving Magnum down that path…we both want more time for our own photography, not less…anyway, thanks for the link..more things like this will pop up…
good point about the pop up flash with the GF1..the only flaw i can find…but i rarely feel the need to use it anyway…
ok, off to shoot…..
cheers, david
DAH
and the M9…?
Cheers, f
david —
i ALWAYS read your answers, and even maybe (?) sometimes (?) I thank you for taking the time to respond.
So I don’t leave you hanging this time ___ thank you so very much for getting back to me with such alacrity… I’m going to have to practice a lot more with my sigma viewfinder (doesn’t block the pop up flash; approx 40mm equiv.)
“best ice cream bar camera” :-)))
mtomalty — thanks, too, for chiming in. wish wish wish there was a 28mm equiv fast sharp prime. the 20 1.7 is pretty stunning, ain’t it?
deeq
“Best ice cream bar camera around.” That’s a bonkers statement but perfectly matches the camera in question. I just got my Nikon D200 cameras cleaned but I have no idea when next I’ll use them for personal work as my diminutive Olympus E-PL1 is just so addictive in much the same way as David describes the CF1. These are great little cameras. Capable of stunning image quality. Quiet. Fast. Fun. Strong. And utterly playful.
I use Nikkor primes and the SEMA-1 mic for movies. No more back pain.
DAH…
Regarding cameras…
I know that you’re also using the Fuji 690…
How noisy (or silent) is that camera and how easy (or hard) is it to focus with it in low light?
Also, is it usable hand-held or is it too bulky and heavy that’s better to use it on a tripod?
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/technology/2010/08/apple-ad-partners-happy-with-early-iad-results.html
one serious heroin addict told me leaving heroin is a piece of cake compared to quitting smoking
————–
Absolutely 100% true..
Smoking is the king of all addictions
PAUL…
yes, some of my colleagues use the Olympus…same thing i think more or less…
THODORIS…
this is a big camera , yet quiet, but i did use it in Australia for shooting the ringers (cowboys) and running and riding and bar dances etc etc…the rangefinder is sorta hard to use in low light but everything on the camera is a bit hard, so no big deal really…..sometimes i had a tripod even set up in the bars at pool tables etc (Aussie ringers don’t care!) , but mostly i used my little Vivitar 2500 flash that also works on the M9 and well on everything…the Fuji is like a very large Leica…hard load and a handful in general, but the results are terrific…i am still using it for my American family project along with the Mamiya VII
FEDERICO…
M9 is terrific too….but isn’t ten times better than the GF1 at ten times the price…only a little bit better…the thing about the GF1 is that you could lose it…i mean as in have it stolen on the streets of Rio for example…when you are out there with the M9 you just have to hope like hell that nobody realizes what it is….
cheers, david
David,
I hope you keep comments going as they are. In my case, in real life as a back country photojournalist, I am pretty much out there all alone most of the time. Except on rare occasions, I tend to have little interaction with other photographers and so I enjoy coming here to see what others have to say and to drop in an occasional comment myself, although I don’t have the kind of time available to engage to the degree that some do. In that regard, I don’t know how you do it and I am very impressed that you find the time you do to devote to responding to comments.
David, I echo Frostfrog’s comment about keeping the comments. I don’t post anywhere else except to bleat (continuously) on the Leica User Forum about how the Leica digital M needs a small grip and a viewfinder that allows you to see the frame-lines.
Here I have had the chance to interact with so many photographers and follow links etc. to other interesting stuff (good word, stuff). Remember when Panos went to war with China? Hilarious! And Akakay’s picture being worth a thousand words in, as I remember, a thousand words. Not sure which Akakay it was though (laughing).
All that’s needed here is for Patricia to come back and to hire Jim Powers as moderator (please come back Jim, I suffer from low blood pressure and when you were around I didn’t need medication.
Mike.
Mike.
Mike R..:)))
Yes.. I lost that war with china long time ago and now the whole country is in debt on Chinese money.. What a mess I created..
But yes there is also a comedy club hiding in lots of comments..
With Akaky by far the king of all comedy(Akaky IRL second)..
And that’s priceless.. No other “intellectual” blog
ever achieved that…
So yes we are unique:)
And then came Imants.. Another comedy BIG..
and that outweighs any negativity or hysteria..;)
MTOMALTY, DAH,
Just haven’t settled in with the GF-1 yet. Will give it another try. Guess I’m just too blown away with the M9. DAH – be aware there’s a new firmware update for M9 as of two weeks ago – better auto white balance.
Note that the metal 35mm Voigtlander finder will allow you to pop up flash. Need to correct a bit for framing but if shooting loose not a problem.
“choc milkshake in one hand…” so no diet anymore David? ;);) Aaah the sacrifices one has to make in order to fit in and get the shot….:)
Charles
Back to the iPad the lack of flash support is the real bug bear it does stifle what can be done, html5 is good for video but flash just offers those extra creative juices…………. then maybe a imiapp will do the trick.
A GF1 maybe I should get one will it make me a photographer?
DAH:
We agree that I was referring to cigarette butts right?
Imants, this month’s British Journal of Photography magazine has an interesting article “Gone in a Flash?” which is on the next-to-last page
http://viewer.zmags.com/publication/38e03aa6#/38e03aa6/1
They are talking about posting I am on about creating stuff in Flash, the actual structures. Converting conventional magazine formats is pretty straight foreward, it is the other stuff that that is not up to speed
Thanks David…
Along with the Leica and the Mamiya rangefinders, Fuji is one the cameras I’ve always wanted to try…
Imants, DAH…
A link about (mostly) limited edition books…
http://hafny.org/blog/category/photo-book-of-the-week
RE: Anything about the iPad not having Flash….
“The United States Computer Emergency Readiness Team (US-CERT) has used the National Cyber Alert System to issue a Cyber Security Alert (SA10-223A) regarding flaws in Adobe Flash and AIR.
Systems Affected
• Adobe Flash Player
• Adobe AIR
US-CERT’s alert states also that “other Adobe products that support Flash may also be vulnerable.”
According to the alert, “there are vulnerabilities in Adobe Flash player and AIR. An attacker could exploit these vulnerabilities to take control of your computer.””
FULL ARTICLE HERE:
http://macdailynews.com/index.php/weblog/comments/26297/
Maybe we should just let the brain trust at Apple do their thing….
The article says that “Flash is nothing more than a scripting language, and most of the effects that we’ve come to associate with Flash can be replicated with Javascript, HTML and CCS.”. It also says that Of all the features Flash offers, dynamic resizing is probably the “unique”. But then, like you said, it’s “those extra creative juices” that do it for you. It does say MOST effects, not ALL.
And since our interest here is probably in using it to view photography or magazines online that showcase photography…. if you need “effects” the photography is probably not that good.
You can INSTALL FLASH ON IPAD IF U JAILBRAKE IT:)
but who would wanna do something like that?
DAVID,
Just want to offer you moral support, mon ami, for what it’s worth… I know breaking the tobacco addiction is very, very hard, but there are many people who have done it, and you can too. I am definitely rooting for you… there is nothing that makes me happier than when a friend of mine succesfully kicks this habit, and nothing that has caused me greater difficulty and heartache in human relationships over the years than friends who couldn’t. I won’t bring up the topic here again, but I am wishing you the very best of luck and fortitude.
Check out this guy’s Nikon on Tokyo Camera Style(yes, I have a problem with camera porn. I’m subscribed to the RSS feed):
http://tokyocamerastyle.com/post/956904367/fukagawa-detail-of-michio-yamauchis-nikon-fm3a
Talk about getting out there… I’m guessing he’s more of a producer than a consumer….
Ok, now this is fun, old farts talking to young bucks about techno stuff.
Do take a look at what Roger Black is offering http://treesaver.net/
Convergence al a Burn… Laughing.
Well rested. Ready for more.
http://michaelkircherphoto.blogspot.com/2010/08/family-time.html
Maybe we should just let the brain trust at Apple do their thing….
read…
http://arstechnica.com/security/news/2010/07/apple-the-new-world-leader-in-software-insecurity.ars
and what do you think jailbreak relies on to break your “i”? iBugs both from apple and adobe. mostly from apple.
flash sucks but its exclusion has nothing to do with security.
cheers.
I hate to say it but steve jobs and apple became the new dictators..
I’m afraid I agree with Haikovich
Everything started after they took over the dying music industry..
He killed Napster because he realized that folks need to own their music and not just rent it..
Then took over Hollywood .. The rest is history..
Panos, thought of you when I read this article. Homeless with hard drives:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-10928032
Justin.. Thank u.. Amazing article..
All of a sudden I don’t feel that alone..:)
I’m a little freaked out these days coz my laptop is in a coma again..
So I solely rely on the iPhone..
Don’t even have enough time to worry about the next couch..:)
DAVID ALAN HARVEY
Just a final comment to you to say that given that I have provided the impetus for discussion on many different topics including current industry issues on Burn magazine in recent weeks, I feel it is very, very wrong of you to blame me for the behaviour of a small number of regular Burn readers who very clearly do this time and time again.
Out of ALL of your former students, I believe I am among those who have taken the ‘Decisive Moment’ philosophy most seriously and have worked on my vision for 4 years. Thank you for introducing me to that philosophy even if you are unwilling to acknowledge my loyalty to the teachings or the results of following it so religiously.
Until I receive an apology or some kind of explanation for your peculiar behaviour towards me – singling me out and blaming me for others behaviour – I will not address any further comment to you and will certainly not be going to see you in Perpignan.
Jenny
oh
dear….
:)
**
Eiik when did burn turn into a school yard? I log on here in to see the best of the best new photography, listen to informed and interesting discussions about photography that make me feel very young and like i have a lot to learn.
anyways, I thought if you haven’t yet seen this you might like to http://open-i.ning.com/notes/Webinar_Archive apologies if it’s already been linked but hey, i can’t be bothered re- reading through all the bickering that’s been posted in this forum.
Dark clouds again… Rain is coming
Imants wrote,
“A GF1 maybe I should get one will it make me a photographer?”
Not if you need Flash. Camera doesn’t do html5
Everyone is makin’ love
Or else expecting rain
HAAAIIK
Where the hell have you been, my man? Taco time, no?
DAH…anyway….
Yes, big subject.. but what I understand from what you say is that its understanding what drives us that will give us the ability to get on top of whatever.. I guess with those stats you mentioned, recidivism is likely, so there for, a part of the process of change.
Enough of me getting off photography.
cheers. Peter.
David;
As Bill says; try to keep the comments. I’m pretty much in the same position as him, and really; the only photographic community I am involved in is Burn. I pretty much work alone here and really value the ability to bounce ideas off other Burn photographers.
Cheers :-)
I suspect html5 will probably win out in the end but right now flash dominates lots of sectors of the wwdot world
Oi Imants apologise for the crap you wrote
Ok on behalf of crap I apologise
I betcha that made crap happy
……… saves crap an apology
crap……….. “thank you I am most grateful”
Imants “that ok”
DAVID A.H…. OR ANYONE ELSE….. who has experience with using different makes of lenses with Panasonic GF1…
Wondering about the GF1. I’m planning on purchasing a digital camera when I have the money, and was thinking about the D700, but the GF1 sounds like it might be more appropriate for me. I read that with an adaptor the GF1 can accommodate both Nikon and Leica lenses. Would you use your Leica or Nikon lenses on the GF1. Considering the quality of leica, and many Nikon lenses, it sounds like a good way to go if one already has a range of those lenses, and is still using those camera’s, rather than doubling up on new Panasonic GF1 lenses..
Just occurred to me that the viewfinder would be a problem shuffling around different focal length lenses on the GF1.. What would you suggest.
DAH…
For BURN-01’s distribution in Europe, have you checked out:
http://www.mottodistribution.com/site/?page_id=33
Also, you might want to come in contact with:
http://selfpublishbehappy.com
They promote self-publishing efforts both online and in the real world… they recently did a presentation/exhibition at The Photographers’ Gallery in London… they have an open call for submissions:
“We are now accepting book submissions again. The selected books will be featured here and showcased in our next events in Toronto, NYC, Dublin, Venice, etc. If you are interested send an email to selfpublished.behappy@gmail.com and we’ll send you the submission guidelines.”
Pomara, “Ok, now this is fun, old farts talking to young bucks about techno stuff.
Convergence al a Burn… Laughing.”
You don’t know how true this is in my case: I have no idea what all that HTML etc. stuff is in my quote from the British Journal of Photography! However, all is not lost: the fruit of this old fart’s loins is a young buck who does understand it. I send him a text saying “Where is the copyright symbol on a Mac keyboard” and he replies “You use something called Google to find out”. I reply “I did Google it and I got “Ask your good-for-nothing son”. He replies “It’s Alt-G. Laughing too.
Mike (from the era of COBOL).
Someone did a search for “praying mantis butt” and it directed them to my site. Not sure what to make of that. Funny.
From the same link:
“Though this does not necessarily mean that Apple’s software is the most insecure in practice—the report takes no consideration of the severity of the flaws—it points at a growing trend in the world of security flaws: the role of third-party software. Many of Apple’s flaws are not in its operating system, Mac OS X, but rather in software like Safari, QuickTime, and iTunes.”
The problem is not OS X, which is running BSD UNIX which is the most secure operating system in the world. The main problem is javascript. Anytime you have software that lets outside users or sites execute THEIR code on your machine, you will have opportunities for disaster. safari/javascript is the same as explorer/javascript and firefox/javascript.
As for me, I have been using a MAC since 1984. NEVER had a virus or any other disaster. And at one time I had my website served off of my MAC at home.
Mike R,
Good looks and education are wasted on the slow. Joking…
Fortunately we adapt.
PETER GRANT…
wish i could help here, but i have no experience with the GF1 with any other lens than the 1.7 20mm….it does seem to me however that using any lens too physically large might just ruin the reason the GF is so attractive in the first place..i would not try to make it replace one of those workhorse cameras per se….i mean i do see it as a point and shoot camera with the 1.7 being so totally ergonomic…i am not sure exactly what you are trying to shoot, but the 700 and 5D cannot be replaced by the GF1 in general…it is a supplementary camera for most..
by the way, the tequila i spilled on the GF1 about 10 days ago has now manifested itself in weird “clouds” on my viewing screen…the tequila first knocked the camera out, then it came back and seems to be working fine, but alas the viewing screen has suffered…
THODORIS…
thanks for the links …i will pass on to Diego who is handling distribution from Italy…
I don’t get this worry about Steve Jobs becoming dictator. Apple has something like 9 percent of the pc market and 7 percent of the phone market. Most of the digital music downloads and player market, granted, but that’s been a good thing. Apple’s fights with the record companies have been to keep the prices low. And you can always buy from Amazon. And if you miss Napster, you must have never heard of bit torrent. Of course they’ve got 100 percent of the IPad market, but that will change. Like Microsoft before them, we’ll get a plethora of Google driven tablets that give you more choices to load virus ridden crap. But whatever, if you don’t like Apple, do like most people and don’t buy their products.
Regarding Flash, my understanding is that it sucks the batteries of mobile devices and overheats them. Why not take Apple’s stance at face value? They want their users to have the best possible experience and short battery life and playing hot potato probably ain’t it. Not that I’m one to generally trust corporate intentions, but that reading is consistent with Apple’s track record. I trust if/when Adobe gets their act together and gets flash to run lean and green, Apple will allow it on their ios devices.
Though it’s true Flash is a scripting language, I wouldn’t say it’s “just” a scripting language. It’s very good and much easier to develop with for non-high end programmers than Javascript. Still, from where most of us her sit, imants excepted, we don’t lose a lot by ditching Flash.
In developing my new website, I looked around for HTML/Javascript site building tools and didn’t find many, but I realized that’s because Flash took over and everybody abandoned the development of HTML/Javascript tools. The one I settled on, Shutterbug, is not as sophisticated as a lot of the Flash alternatives, but it could be with some development effort. I’m sure we’ll be seeing better products soon. Speedwise, the HTML/Javascript is much faster than the Flash tool I’ve been using.
FROSTFROG…ROSS
Bill,Ross, it is for you and photographers like you that i do keep things going in general…thanks for the comments….by the way, nice haircut and trim Bill….
CHARLES….
smiling…well, i would tell you the chocolate malt was just a prop for the shoot, but alas after my 21 day “cleanse” i did slip back to some bad habits….everyone said i would…most everyone does…however, my intake of the “bad stuff”, mostly sugar, is way way down…the occasional choc malt excepted…
your work in particular which flows so nicely from print to internet so so lends itself to iPad or at least the potential of iPad or similar mobile device…
Thanks for that comment David. My take is that work flow is because I create within that small scale. My normal print size (exhibition wall stuff) is 11 inches at the longest side though I do the occasional print at 15 inches but somehow the intimacy of the work starts to disapate
What I do in the books is my preferred size and that fits an ipad, all accidental though it may be due to using a 17″ monitor where the default image size is about 9 inches across. Who knows but large prints of my work just don’t work.The GF1 would probably work quite well for me.
Still thinking hard about an ipad……….
Anyone here who thinks that free music on Napster is a good idea must also believe that it is OK for people to copy and use your photography for free.
PETE….
this is the modern day conundrum ….free use of work…music , pictures etc…there is no way to stop free use….so the Prince model pretty much is what most artists have adopted…and which Martin Parr has perfected from the photo side…Prince is pleased to have his music everywhere , all the time free or almost free…..less royalties than the old model..BUT, he sells his live concerts out big time at premium prices..trades out royalties for popularity which leads to big ticket sales on certain “products”…Martin Parr the same..he has been giving away his pictures for years to newspapers etc who run long stories about his projects…does not care about the small space rates he might have received but trades out his popularity and exposure for print and book sales which are the result of this “give away”…i am not advocating anything, just reporting the “facts” as i understand them
cheers, david
MW…
funny we humans…how we both reward and punish success simultaneous…Steve Jobs as a biz dictator…hmmmm, interesting concept…some would see him simply as a really smart business developer…someone who has developed products that people line up for even before they hit the streets…biz guys are not my heroes by a long shot, but as far as i can tell he is an honest man and just has a knack for knowing what people want before they want it…or, am i missing something?
“there is no way to stop free use”
Maybe so, but that is no reason to help them steal it.
If Parr and Prince want to give their work away that is THEIR right. The people who just take it and pass it around do not have that right.
And if it works for Parr that is great, but we all know that day rates from publications are almost nonexistent and dismally low if they do exist.
Now all that being said, yes I think there are times when it can be to your advantage to let people have stuff. I use photoshelter’s embed abilities to link photos to my archive. Anyone is welcome to pull that link off my blog and post the image somewhere else. But it still links back to my blog. So yes, like Parr and Prince this is my way of advertising to get work.
But again, this is MY choice to let people do this. If the artists in the music industry do not want the work THEY OWN to be taken without compensation, that is their right and they are entitled under the law to receive that compensation.
talking of the GF 1… they have a 3D lens in the pipeline!
http://www.dpreview.com/news/1007/10072801panasonic3dlens.asp
it’s got me thinking about 3D photography… are they serious or is this some kind of marketing gimmick?
i know nat geo have used some 3D photos in the past, but… and all the recent movies…
could be interesting, fun… or maybe not, need to see some prints i suppose…
interested what folks here think about the idea of 3D photography… ?
it’s got me scratching my head…
I prefer Limaware for free music..
Torrents for free software..
I enjoyed the new Photoshop , the content aware filter..
But mostly because it’s free…
Napster? I hate it! Why rent music when it’s available for free?
SAM…
i had no idea that there was much of a market for 3D…only a novelty imo….i like to see films like Avatar in 3D but cannot imagine Casablanca as a 3D experience….some say 3D is more “realistic” , but real life does not appear 3D to me…besides, who wants realistic anyway?
PETE…
yes, i agree…..again please remember that copyright and photographer’s rights in general is our primary mantra at Magnum…
Parr is brilliant…
All those years that the big record companies used to steal $19 out of a $20 cd from the artist and $20 from our pockets…
Steve jobs was smart to steal a $1 for every song that belong to the thieves ( record companies)
And then the hackers.. The guerilla fighters, the torrents..
That they said eff u to both record companies and apple..
U2 distributed the last album themselves through the net..
And agreed with hackers that said also eff u to apple and the dinosaurs ( record companies)
Stealing???? Laughing.. The dinosaur owe us millions of $$$…
Power to the people
Power to the hackers
Pete,
Free actually is a business model…
here is an article about “free” – a book by Chris Anderson
http://www.wired.com/techbiz/it/magazine/16-03/ff_free
and this is the book as free download for the audiobook
http://www.wired.com/images/multimedia/free/FREE_Audiobook_unabridged.zip
DAH…
yeah, it surprised me too… and seeing as i been living way out in the sticks for a while now i started wondering how out of touch i’m becoming… makes me feel i need a trip to a big city…
For a 4 member rock band with only 3 records in the market the money they make when touring in Europe is about $100000 per member per night they perform..
Therefore a good tour is about twenty cities..
Multiply 20 by 100000 and u make 2mil per person for a month work.. And all that without selling a single cd! Not even one..
( I’m not gonna mention the name of the band I’m referring to although all the regulars here know who I’m talking about)..
Rock Stars are overated
PANOS…
no doubt in my mind that the record companies stole from the artists and got us to pay premium…at the same time they did distribute the most popular art of our time…all these YouTube songs you link here did get made by some sleazy producer …and all the movies too….so yes they did totally take advantage of the artists and the consumers…probably the same thing happened to Shakespeare ..somebody was most likely ripping the boy off and skimming the audience too…unfortunately this is the way of the world..not to condone it, but just to put into perspective…right now we MUST figure out a way for photographic artists to be able to produce new work without financing it with their bar tending tips…stealing their work doesn’t help any more than giving our money to big producers who rip it from both ends….finding the right balance between business and art production is a tricky equation….i suspect there is no “answer” or final “formula”…i think we have to take deals one at a time…and work with people we trust….and , oh yes, it is not just the producers who can be a bit over the top…i think you could give some pretty good examples of artists who have gotten a bit greedy and tipped the scales…always always a matter of balance….
cheers, david
DAH wrote,
“by the way, the tequila i spilled on the GF1 about 10 days ago has now manifested itself in weird “clouds” on my viewing screen…”
Sounds like your camera ate the worm !
PETER GRANT
There are adapters to allow use of numerous third party brands on the GF-1’s micro 4/3 mount
but, most,like David mentioned are too large relative to the size and,perhaps,intent of the camera
that make the combo awkward.
Manual focus then becomes the order of the day and for anything outside of a wide equivalent
accuracy is going to be tough to achieve with the GF-1 unless you are shooting static subjects
or working from a tripod.
Hackers eliminated the middle man..
The Rock Star still makes the same or more from touring..
BMG used to rip artists off by taking $19 out of a $20 cd
The lion share.. Then the apple (hyena) started eating the leftovers.. Only a $1 per song..
Times has changed but the middleman is always a middleman.
Although he changed his name to producer or distributor or manager
or…
David I agree..
I’m not even a Rock Star.. Can’t even tour ..
I’m in the lowest end of all arts but I’m around Burn that not only advertises me for Free but also pays me to be featured ..
On the contrary u see all those other scanners out there with their online scams making money through advertisement from artists work..
MTOMALTY…
you are confusing tequila with mezcal…no worms in tequila…yup, both agave cactus products , but quite different in taste mostly because of the process…please remember that Oaxaca is where i have spent so much time and those mezcal worms can seem quite appropriate at a certain point in the evening…don’t knock it til you’ve tried it or don’t try it until you’ve knocked it or….well, going for more coffee…
right now we MUST figure out a way for photographic artists to… get paid?
I don’t hear a lot about the app model. I’m thinking drop a multimedia slideshow into an App and sell that for a couple bucks. Will let you know how that works when I figure out how to do it. Or would love to work with someone on that.
Scam… Scammer…
I’m not gonna mention any names.. But I see lots of those scammers
Stealing content from Burn and repost it in their online magazines acting like they are honoring Burn..
You all know the ones I’m referring to..
Copy and paste, then give a little credit to Burn and then boom.. Voilà.. U can have your own magazine .. Look for advertisement and then quit your job..
And then sit tight with your new 17′ PowerBook calling me a thief
stealing music???
Laughing…
PANOS…
you see more than do i…i did not know of what you speak..believe you, just didn’t know…about Burn content theft that is..nobody can steal Burn content and sell ads around it…or, ???..well, i still like hard copy books and magazines for that reason….
Thomas, thanks for that link.. interesting read..
MW…
yes, that is what we have to figure out…we do have a small model here in that everyone does now get paid for their content on Burn…but token and only because we have nobody on our staff who is getting paid…so it is the audience financing the audience…not a realistic way for most businesses to operate…sponsorship the only way …..but this is a very large undertaking to get that moving…again, we have done some of it here and have more on the way…but to sustain it in a large way and over time is a herculean effort…or at least an effort that neither Anton nor i want to take our lives and our time and do….it will take one of Panos’ middleman producers to do that…can’t we find a good guy/woman version of that model??
I don’t get this worry about Steve Jobs becoming dictator. Apple has something like 9 percent of the pc market and 7 percent of the phone market.
————
Michael:), for Jobs any iPod he sells is just a bonus…
ITunes made him rich and the deal with Hollywood (4 big Studios) for $3.99 a movie..
So now Apple became the absolute middleman in the entertainment industry..
And why iPhones are LOCKED???
ha ha.. Big commission from AT&T!!!!!
David:
from what I understood reading the article linked by Thomas ( http://www.wired.com/techbiz/it/magazine/16-03/ff_free ) it’s advertising that will pay.. you give away content for free getting the money to pay the artists from the advertisers, who in turn want something from the audience (at the very end it’ll be the audience paying for whatever the advertisers sell)..
Panos? iPhones (and iPads) still locked in the land of the free?? Not so here..
PANOS…
i am sitting here right now with a new piece of equipment that just arrived by fedex yesterday…it is my new AT&T 3g MicroCell…so that the iPhone (which YOU made me buy) will work on my front porch….so i just spent 200 bucks extra so that my $300 3G super phone will work at home …it works at one end of the street where i live but not the other….my neighbors i am sure think it curious that i am on my bike at all hours riding to the end of the street to make a phone call…this micro cell promises to give me 5 bars..wow..gee thanks AT&T and Steve!!
Jobs not becoming a dictator.. He is already became one..
Flash is old but not as bad as he wants us to believe…
The Android phone runs flash, u can see Burn and any other website and it still slightly faster as an iPhone…
But mr.Jobs opened the war with Adobe.. and he wants to win that war.. And we all helping him to win..
But what do we get as return??
A locked iPhone maybe?
( but I don’t want to be a hypocrite.. I have 3 iPhones myself.. Why? Ha ha.. It’s a pussy magnet and I’m not the cutesy guy in the world…laughing…:)
EVA..
yes, i read Thomas’ link and was of course familiar with the concept….it should all work….just need the implementation which is a full time job for someone…
David, indeed.. and makes me think: since it’s the audience paying anyway in the end.. would a membership fee be enough and easy enough to handle to pull off anything?.. perhaps not, don’t know the numbers, or even the possibility..
DAH,
Sugar is overrated ;) – it’s the easiest part of my dieta – try no salt or spices for three months. Thing I’m missing most actually is onions and garlic. But I know that this dieta will leave a lasting impression on my eating habits (not to mention my approach to aya) and will most likely become a yearly thing.
ALL,
Fascinating article about the use of the iPad among autistic children:
http://www.seattleweekly.com/2010-08-11/news/thriller-app/
Thought of this this morning as Felix grabbed my iPhone at the breakfast table and proceeded, by accident (though really toddler trial and error), to rock out to James Brown. He thought it was the best thing in the world to be able to make music appear out of thin air. He also managed to set the timer (which just went off half hour later), do something with Voice Control(?) and called my wife. Who knows what else will turn up….
But yeah, it’s a new age. Will be fascinating how tech affects the next generation(s). Or if they end up rejecting….
CP
PANOS…
my iPhone is not very useful as a telephone, much less as an “attraction” of any kind…or, am i just using it wrong?? tell me maestro, tell me…
David..
I never promised that the iPhone would work or able to make a decent phonecall.. But I did promise it would bring all the girls in the yard…:)))))
DAH
panos is right ….. chk this out
http://www.wired.com/gadgetlab/2010/08/gadget-sex/
CHARLES…
you only THINK sugar is the easiest part…believe me you have not cut off sugar…you just think you have because you are not eating ice cream and candy or drinking cokes…once you start reading the labels of even the most benign things, like a can of “organic string beans” and find out there is a teaspoon full of sugar in there, then you will realize the problems with sugar…EVERYTHING is laced with sugar….we are all addicted to sugar….in a very big way….funny thing how sugar and spices changed the world literally….ships sailed, indigenous peoples conquered, colonialism ruled..all because of sugar and spice and everything nice….smiling
Charles, perhaps they’ll end up like described here:
http://dektol.wordpress.com/2010/08/13/the-end-of-the-age-of-photography-pt-ii/
It’s not so much the ubiquity of sugar that’s a concern (or salt for that matter) it’s the amount per serving. A teaspoons worth in a 14 oz can should not be of great concern. But yes, read the labels.
PANOS:
“Michael:), for Jobs any iPod he sells is just a bonus…
ITunes made him rich and the deal with Hollywood (4 big Studios) for $3.99 a movie..”
Jobs as rich long before iTunes.
THOMAS:
“The new model is based not on cross-subsidies — the shifting of costs from one product to another — but on the fact that the cost of products themselves is falling fast. It’s as if the price of steel had dropped so close to zero that King Gillette could give away both razor and blade, and make his money on something else entirely. (Shaving cream?)
Then why am I getting raped when I buy razors now? Have you seen the prices? Anyway what exactly are you going to market after giving the images away for free? Assignment work? There really aren’t any assignments these days. Besides, why would a publisher hire you to shoot an assignment? They can just wait until you find a way to fund it yourself and then use it when you give it away for free.
Newspapers gave away advertising on the internet to their “paper” advertisers for years and called it value added since they could not figure out how to price it or how to get advertisers to pay for it. Now then need the revenue and they still can’t get advertisers to pay for it. Free did nothing for them.
“Some artists give away their music online as a way of marketing concerts, merchandise, licensing, and other paid fare. But others have simply accepted that, for them, music is not a moneymaking business. It’s something they do for other reasons, from fun to creative expression. Which, of course, has always been true for most musicians anyway.
Great. Again, what are you going to market? Books? Ask DAH, Nobody makes money from books. But if your just in photography for “fun or creative expression” then I guess it works for you.
Interesting article, but it seems like you would have to have a degree in “free economics” to understand the concept and then actually take that knowledge and devise a way to implement it in a way that makes you money as a photographer…. Is anyone here really that smart? If so, you should probably be making money selling that instead and then you can finance the free photography.
BROTHER PANOS! :))))
i KNOW exactly about what you’re talking about…those websites that USE burn content to promote their own websites…and then come across acting all holier than thou ;)))….David, it is true and it has happened here….take a peak around, you’ll see it…those are the “credentials” that make my stomach turn….good call panos….
as far as giving away stuff, i’ve come full circle…i used to fight vociferously about that, even publically arguing with Foto8 about this and Private…but changed my mind…i do believe, now, in giving away content on line…there’s a reason…similar to Parr and Prince’s notion,…but, no time to explain….
as for Apple…well, i think, honestly, we’re lost when we’ve become such suckers…jobs is smart, i’ve had apple comptuers my whole life…was a believer when i was young and in college….even supported job’s black cube…but now, i find the whole mentality and our collective hubris really depressing….Jobs is smart and wealthy and, ironically, big brother….
i think, if you’ve got 4 hours, y’all should watch this doucmentary, from the bbc….make you re-think our collective sense of self….
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Century_of_the_Self
marina and i just finished the last part on sunday…..critical watching…
most of us, sadly, have realized Bernay’s ideas….and we’re bicycling from steet end to street end to be connected ;))))…david, gotta love that image…i wish i were there to photography you in low light :))
you can watch the WHOLE documentary on google video…
running to nova scotia…
b
PETE :)
I am man 2.0, I don’t grow a beard anymore. So I can live with 5 razors for 4.99 for a year …
looking at new market models, Mark Lubell, the director of Magnum Photos did an interview, this might be interesting in this context, too:
http://www.gholubowicz.com/bulb/2010/08/sortir-du-cadre-interview-mark-lubell/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+bulbphoto+%28bulb%2C+Gerald+Holubowicz+photojournalist%29
Pete M.,
You’re just using the wrong razor; pick-up an old-school Gillette adjustable double-edge and you can buy the super-cheap blades. Mine is from 1959 and still works great – the Leica of razors :-)
BOB…PANOS…
thanks for the tipoff…i really did not know…upsetting to say the least….will snoop around a bit…
5 razors at 4.99 a year? OUCH. That hurts me more than free! (grin)
PANOS AND BOB
Are you taking a swipe at the37thframe?
Pete, usually under any Burn essay you will see numerous links to numerous individuals..
Yes I did see Burn essays on 37th frame too.. When I was up in Istanbul I saw a Burn essay on the IZ magazine.. Then I looked straight into it’s editors eyes..
Hasan the editor read my mind and smiled.. “yea I paid the photographer ” he answered to me without me even asking him a question… But yes Hasan is an exception..
That’s why you can find IZ mag everywhere up in the magnum office..
But Pete yes, since you asked.. I wasn’t about to mention any names..
And it’s not only the 37th frame but many many others that get content from Burn..
It’s an epidemic
But Pete last time I checked your magazine was last December .. Almost a year ago..
So do not take personal if u feel clean..
That was the reason I didn’t mention any names..
But definitely I’ve seen many burn essays in the 37th frames in the past.. I don’t know if u stopped doing it.. If u did stop then let’s move on.. I’m not a judge and this is not a court..
The reverse – multimedia multimedia piece. Watch closely, takes a bit to see how this is done. At least someone is having fun with the revolution.
Erica, now that’s quite cool!!
Any news about your bookdummy, when, where, what?
PANOS…BOB…PETE
under any normal copyright situation , Burn would be licensing this material out with a profit to photographer and Burn…i do not mind doing pro bono or some free use of my work or the work here, but when we give it away only to find out someone else is making a profit from this content, then i think a line must be drawn…
David, that was my point..
Not to harass anybody in particular …
And especially when the conversation is all about free content and who eventually profits .. I’m not Zoro trying to eliminate all middlemen.. I know that’s utopia …
Middlemen will never go away.. I’m stupid but not that stupid..!;)
I also believe that Burn alone can NOT stop the third world war that it’s been reported it’s on it’s way;)
hi Eva – i have the dummy here – not sure when it goes to rome…is that what you mean?
btw I saw the link to your work that you posted here on burn and I really really enjoyed it, day in the life tho it may be, I only saw on my phone as I’ve been on the road, but i plan to look at all of your work as soon as I am able. i found it inspiring…I won’t ask you to post the link agin to your work, i know you posted it twice already, and it is easy enough to find :)
* DAH – I have seen several sites that ‘announce’ the work on burn and show 1 – 5 photos, but I haven’t seen anyone reposting full essays just as they appeared on burn. maybe I am misunderstanding, but isn’t is similar to a photographer giving forst use to one publication, having an embargo period or not, and then showing the work elsewhere? Or is someone saying the work is being lifted without consent from photographer, as well as burn?
Wow. Did Bob Black just suggest someone acts “holier than thou?” Whew! His last name couldn’t be more appropriate in this case! Heh! Too funny!
DAH,
Well, I’m reading labels, believe me! No sugar (or sweeteners of any kind), no salt, no lemons, no onions (or family of), no spice (herbs okay but not that kind of herb ;)), no seaweed or saltwater fish, no fermented foods or vinegars, no oranges or papayas or mangoes, and so on… fortunately, chicken, fish (freshwater and salmon) and oils okay. Not complaining though, as I feel great and my wife says I look better than ever.
EVA,
Looking forward to reading that. Now getting ready to go teach my high school students. Last week – should have a link soon of work to share. Last push to get them to drive their cameras vs their cameras driving them…. and the “ability to tell” has come up a lot in class.
Best,
CP
First of all the37thframe makes virtually no money. Whatever comes from those few google fed ads on the site is used to pay the hosting, and it does not cover that.
Second, I asked DAH back when BURN started if he has any objection to me linking to the occasional story on BURN. He said he did not and that the “internet was all about links.” If any of you have noticed, the37thframe is listed in the “links” on the right side of this page.
It is also listed on the NYT Lens Blog, Daylight Magazine among others with over 16,000 backlinks.
I have said, and I maintain, that if anyone who’s work is linked to from the37thframe.org wants the link removed, I would gladly do so. In all of the work I have posted, I have NEVER received that request and I usually get emails thanking me for the promotion as well as lots of other requests to link to more of their work.
DAH – If at anytime you wish me to stop linking to stories on BURN, just send me an email and I will do so.
Well Pete I agree, Jobs was always rich but u also have to agree that locking the iPhones with AT&T is a dirty deal that does not benefit the consumer…
That’s why they got sued from the state of California for unfair business practice :(
And we shouldn’t blame the hackers by “jailbreaking” the iPhones should we?
” dirty deal that does not benefit the consumer…”
Didn’t stop you from getting one. Or was it free? (grin)
And yes I do admit in public that I convinced David to buy an iPhone :))))
But I could hear all those rumors in the air back then that apple soon will break the chains from AT&T and set us free to chose which carrier we chose..
This is the “land of the free” after all..
But obviously I was just another dreamer… Dreaming that the cavalry is coming to our rescue …
Laughing (at myself)
:(
I didn’t say free.. I said I have three..
And Vivek above explained why…
Anything that gets me laid…
Laughing..
“This is the “land of the free” after all..”
HA! says who?
..and of course I use Skype for calls.. Which is free!!?
What’s wrong with “free”..
You obviously has no problem with “free” content as u admitted above , right?
Erica:
Yes, the dummy going to Rome, planning on going South, sorry for being cryptic ;)
Thanks, and when you check out the site, just keep in mind what I already wrote, it’s all! in need of a heavy edit..
Charles:
If what’s written in the article you linked to is true (hope it’s not just hidden advertisment), that’d be great.. and shortly after reading that I stumbled over this link here: http://bit.ly/brvRwQ
Looking forward to see what your class comes up with..
Ok Pete big hug to u.. I don’t want drag this free issue any longer..
Or create any extra bad feelings of the ones already exist..
And I actually do like the 37th frame now that I’m looking at it..
And if u feature any of my essays (I’ll give it for free).. I will always be on your side..
And as Jenny usually says..
“don’t ignore me”.. I asked u three times..
Feature my work in your magazine and I will shut up..
Otherwise I’m not gonna see you in Perpignan!!!
Big hug bro
“Your work is to discover your work and then with all your heart give yourself to it.” Bhddha
Just ran across this. Funny, sounds like a DAH workshop.
uhm, plz ignoor the misspellling …
Young,
Are you saying that the Dalai Lama copied DAH’s workshop techniques?? Hmmmm.. Burn needs to sue;)
Michael K ;))
yes, toot-toot, indeed…only thing, whem, i know i’m a kettle….and also who the brethen pots are….but i dont pretend to be anything but a kettle…and for sure, never, once, here or else where, asked another pot to prove their credentials….
hollier-than-thou me ;)))…must have been the jesuit uncle…
cheers
bob
Michael C..
I just googled “prayer mantis”..
I don’t see u anywhere!!??
big hug;)
K not C… too many Michaels here:)
Credentials…
Oh no… All those nightmares in the immigration office are coming back…
Funny story: I’m an American citizen now.. Before I become one I had all kind of hassles in the borders, immigration, papers.. Prove this , prove that..I do have dual citizenship now .. I’m also European but I lost my euro passport.. So when I was trying to come back to the States last may, I got stopped in Switzerland by euro immigration officers… They wanted to give me a $2000 fine for being an American that overstayed in Europe..
“I’m also European I defended myself..”
“well prove it the Swiss cop replied…
I went through he’ll to prove it.. I almost missed my flight to NY..
That’s why I get nauseous when I need to prove my identity or anything else…:(
And funnier thing “credential” wise..
Is that someone ask me that here on Burn..
A mag that I was published 4 times.. I’m a Burn photog..
And the guy asks me in here, “where I’m from???!”
A guy that should know me very very well.. Because his mag
is copy and paste Burn clone.. How did u miss my work here Pete?
You know what the hommies from the hood would say here in LA?
“I’ll show where the ocean is”..
Coz that’s where I’m from..
(laughing.. Not to be taken as a threat )although the hommies wouldn’t take the “credentials” offense lightly… I would.. I would..
Peace and lovve
Panos…
I just tried myself. Found a photo in “images” section. 2nd one! Ha!
Oh! and it’s “praying mantis butt.” Weird!
Butt?? I didn’t see that.. Let me re-google ;)
Ha ha yes.. Michael you are right..
How weird:)
ALL
Just to say goodbye. It was lovely to meet you all – with all the highs and lows along the way. An apology does not look like it is coming…
For the record, I once did a workshop with DAH but have not been a student of his for years – though we are all students of ‘life’ until the final moment…
Take care all.
Jenny
Two farewell quotes:
“The way is not in the sky. The way is in the heart.” ~ Buddha
“Vision is the art of seeing the invisible.” ~ Jonathan Swift
Say hi to Patricia for us! ;^}
Ahhhh Jenny … Too much drama…
It’s not even funny anymore…
I tried to make jokes.. Put some self sarcasm in your life..
Self importance is the opposite of your beloved Buddha..
You take yourself way too serious to have fun.. I thought you would lighten up but instead…
Goodbye
And yes you should apologize to the rest of us.. But it seems that it seems that you are in higher realm than the rest of us.. Just like Pat..
Too much ego, girl..
And I don’t see your apology coming anytime soon…
Apology for belittling and disrespecting all the readers here…
Quick iPad review:
GOOD:
– Starts instantly
– Is damned responsive, fast
– Battery lasts a long time
– Is small, but not too small, is thin and light
– Subtle sound and animation design compensate for lack of tactile feeling
– The computer almost disappears
BAD:
– Mac or PC computer is needed in order to use one (or it won’t even start!!)
– Stupid political-borders and legalese-based access to applications
– Software installed ultimately controlled by one company (Apple), unless you jailbreak it, but then Apple keeps breaking your jailbreaks with each of their updates…
– Synchronization functionality currently severely limited (you need to do it through damned itunes)
– No in-page search in Safari
– No included PDF and text file dedicated viewer and editor
– No camera, or SD card slot (!!)
– The apple case is not included, but necessary for full use potential
After buying one I redesigned my website and think it is certainly an excellent way to display pictures, although I’m still working on the best way to display vertical images. Also managed to hack an image and music slideshow together using JavaScript and jQuery, a bit slow on the ipad currently, but an excuse to show you some pictures…smiling: http://simongriffee.com/theisland/
Would be nice if they could reduce the cost of production to the point where this becomes the ‘one laptop per child’… Apple and Steve are far from perfect, and I also worry about the state of affairs with Google, Verizon and Net Neutrality in the US, but open source is stronger than ever…certainly exciting times…
No earphones included either
Ok.. My shift is over..
Time for some flat tire therapy..
But yes Simon.. I agree.. Photos in iPad look gnarly and dope
Those sites and blogs etc even 37thframe use burn to do their research, lazy buggers!!
The spinning jenny is a multi-spool spinning wheel…………..
I can now make all my stuff ipad compatible…………. but it runs a bit secondary, thought about it at this stage naaahhh.
37thframe and burn have the same essay up…………… say no more.
……. but I will. Isn’t that called riding on someone else’s shirt tails.
Imants.. That is just a “coincidence”..
Never happened before;)
You also missed a point.. The Burn essays sells Viagra in the 37th..
Here sells nothing
..too bad we have no google ads or banners here.. Burn would look so colorful with a little ads here and there… “make your own website for a $1”.. Or..”penis enlargement for free”…
Etc
Yea 37thframe may do something about it but most probably cook up some mumbo jumbo justification………… lame buggers
But yes Simon.. I agree.. Photos in iPad look gnarly and dope…… found that wih the slide shows I tried out
Oh no.. I’m upset.. Jenny just removed me from her Facebook Friends List..!!!:(
Now? What am I gonna do?
Dealing with rejection especially from a lady never been easy for me! Sad day for my Ego..
http://www.epuk.org/News/964/the-london-photographic-association-a-plucked-vulture
Hey Jenny, lighten up! You take a workshop with DAH, it’s a business relationship. That he considers you a student for life; that’s a gift.
On the subject of quotes: “Mustard is no good without roast beef”. Harpo Marx.
Laugh Jenny. See you here tomorrow.
Best,
Mike.
She will return…
But in the meantime let’s see
what’s out there in the real world
http://labs.slate.com/
Experiments in multimedia journalism.
Hummm… when will they feature BURN?
No cash, but hey isn’t it all about
getting the most hits in the next 30 seconds?
Tooting my own horn here –
Looks like I’m going to shoot my first assignment for NYT on Friday. Kinda cool.
Brian.. Kinda cool???
That is super very cool!
Thanks Panos, but I’m the kind of person who will be more excited when I don’t screw the pooch on the assignment.
One step at a time.. I’m sure you can do it! No stress…
Brian, Good for you. It’s all in the wrists.
Nothing to it.
BRAVO To BRIANNNNNNNNNNNNNN…
yeap,I love to say BUT I told you soooo:)))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))))
beer on you:)))))))))))))))))))))))))
POMARA,
we are coming over…BRAVO to you…
I am keep reading…BRAVO to EMCD…
“what are you shooting???”…that’s EMCD’S question…not to be credited to me!!!
JENNY…you got a message…LOVE
PANOS…I got an i-phone BUT no birds in my yard …either:)))
I like 37th frame…all it needs …is one civilian…hiiii…
just a suggestion:)))
I am checking new essays…my i-pad …hmmm…I see nothing…;(((
KATIEEEEEEE,MY GRACIE,DAVIDB,BOBBY…and to ALL my beautiful BURNIANS…
I miss you…ahhh…the journey…
Be
United
Right
Now…I can’t afford to loose any more ladies…
My apologies for my English…hiii…that’s why I copy and I paste and … I do quotes
Voila
:“An optimist is a person who sees a green light everywhere, while a pessimist sees only the red stoplight. . . The truly wise person is colorblind.”
Albert Schweitzer ( 1952 Nobel Peace Prize, 1875-1965)
oups, I am not a truly wise person…hmmm…
BUT…I love you all:)))
P.S where is the FELIX photo…
and TOR CAPA and DIMAS and the DARK KIDS…!!!
Hey Brian, sorry, but I find that hard to believe. Everybody says, you know, that assignment photojournalism is dead. I read that all the time. Did someone sell you the Brooklyn bridge while you were here, too?
Just kidding, or course. Congratulations, you’ve earned it and I trust you’ll do well.
“Hey Brian, sorry, but I find that hard to believe. Everybody says, you know, that assignment photojournalism is dead”
First of all congratulations Brian. Working for the NYT is cool.
BUT…. since there are still people that think assignment photography is alive and well… maybe you can tell them what that assignment rate is for the NYT. Not trying to rain on the parade, but some here have no idea what is going on out there.
Good luck on the shoot. Just do what you do and it will be fine.
DAVID A.H.
Yes, I see what you mean. It sort of defeats the purpose and usefulness of this GF1 camera as what its designed to be. A point and shoot. mmm?. need to rethink how I can add a digital camera without costing a fortune and making use of some of the gear I have. I’ve used SLR’s all my life so maybe the d700 is a better choice to stick with enabling me to continue using the range of lenses I already have.
sounds like what Tequila could do to many of us humans as well.
thanks david. cheers.
MTOMALTY…
Good point about focusing issues. Yes, it would be impossible to use anything over a 35mm, or as you suggest, incredibly difficult.
A real problem with street photography as I tend to be most interested in.
Thanks for that mtomalty.
Peter; I think the next generation or two of Sony Nex cameras might be worth looking especially if they make a more upmarket version with decent viewfinder etc..
Peter,
if street photography is your main focus i think you might find the d700 a bit big and obtrusive…
however others may feel different, also depends on your approach (i’m sure mr. gilden wouldn’t have any issues…) there are many factors to consider, i think dah used a d700 in rio, but not sure if that was out on the street or in other circumstances… see if you can try/rent one before buying…
Charles,
even toothpaste has sugar in it!
check out Vicco sugar free toothpaste (ayurvedic) (sounds like some 50’s tv commercial)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6KSOPM62rHE&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Please Jenny forgive me… Make me a facebook friend again.. Let’s save some face plz.. For Burn’s sake..
I’m on my knees:(
Panos, sweetie….remember…. BTW, I like this song you posted and the artist. Thanks.
The talk of iPad has been informative; I’ve looked at it a few times and couldn’t figure out how it would fit into my arsenal.
It’s been a quiet few days and stayed out of the fray here on Burn. An interesting study, people getting all emotional and heated in virtual space. How is it that a person or persons can get so upset with someone they are half a world away from and for most have never even seen their face? Do they fill their minds with imagined conversations that whip them up into a froth? I have been guilty of that on occasion–find myself imagining a conversation (with ex) that rips him a new one, and of course making up all kinds of things he would say.
In “The Secret” the point made a lot is it is all in our minds: pain, disease, poverty, homelessness, broken hearts and creating anger, jealousy, envy. I was flipping through channels driving to Louisiana and a preacher of all things caught my attention talking about what it indicates in your life if you have a lot of anger. It means you have forgiveness to give out. Guilt means you need to ask for forgiveness. Doctrine aside this guy had a good point. From personal experience when I get really angry for very little or no reason it is because I have built up things that need to be forgiven and they pop out for no reason.
Hope that this all dies down and we can all (Panos) drop it. Maybe a new topic. I was talking to a friend today and the topic of landscapes came up and he said the very same thing I have heard a lot–why take a photo of a landscape without a person in it? I have heard many people voice this and I seem to shoot that way. I rarely take landscapes (except my Outside My Window series and I was in it in the fact that it was from my window) because I like people in my photos. Most of us here seem to do photos with people; I don’t remember anyone posting plain landscape. There was the rain series just recently but it started out with people and from a car that indicates being seen by the driver, more so than a regular landscape. Curious what others feel.
Guess it is early morning around the other side of the world and midnight Eastern time. Good morning, good night and here sliding into evening.
Pete Marovich,
Not a chance in the world am I going to get sucked into a debate about day rates, possibly burning a bridge before it’s ever built.
ROSS..
Wow, just had a look at the sony nex and can’t believe how small it is. Its strange, only having used heavy solid camera’s, I’m wondering if these much lighter camera’s feel much less stable in one’s hands when taking photographs on slow shutter speeds. The other thing I worry about is dust getting on the sensor, as I’m often taking pictures in very dusty environments. This is something I’d need to consider with any digital camera with interchangeable lenses I guess.
Thanks for the lead Ross.
Lee wrote,
“….why take a photo of a landscape without a person in it? I have heard many people voice this….”
Sounds like city slicker talk :>))
I’d counter with, “Why take a landscape photo with a person in it ?”
Doesn’t it, then, become an environmental portrait ?
SAM.
Yes it probably is. I’m much more comfortable with my old F3 and M6, though the F3 is too clunky in quiet situations. I’ve also used the f100 quite a bit and find it really comfortable in my hands with framing quickly horizontally to vertically, and just holding it generally in my hand. Don’t care about the weight when I’m taking images, though the auto focus has so often thrown me. I’d like to try a smaller digital camera and feel it out, as I feel most comfortable with the M6. Just can’t afford quality film these days using cheap Fuji and Kodak neg film.
Thanks for your reply SAM.
cheers , peter.
but some here have no idea what is going on out there.
—————
Brian “great advice”… Take advice from the “experts” that know everything about what’s going on out there.. Ignore the rest of us please..
Peter; I’m using the D200/300 and a 24 prime for practically everything now and don’t really feel it’s too big. I do however think that the Nex maybe a bit too small. I haven’t got big hands but do like a camera with a bit of heft, without going all D3!
As for the M6; I’ve nearly finished a roll through a 1977 Zorki 4K rangefinder. Back to good old Sunny 16!
and Brian a piece of advice from the king of all ignorants(that is me of course:)..
Don’t forget to add some Viagra ADS in your blog..
That will add to your (and anyone) blog prestige…
ps: pls don’t listen to me;)
I showed a pic of the Zorki to Panos a while ago and had to stop him swapping his M8 for it :-)
ROSS..
Yeah. I’m with you on that ross. I think I’d find, actually, I’m fairly certain I’d find the sony nex too small for most of the photography i do, but i can see the advantages of a small pocket sized camera, as was the case with the old film pocket sized camera’s, particularly in more personal environments.
Another ipad/mobile concept coming in October
http://www.readnomad.com
A little background here:
http://www.mediaweek.com/mw/content_display/news/magazines-newspapers/e3i831a0b575c6cd1c6a34ef96ce3b5ffbd#5
Peter; I’m sure there will be a more GF1-like Nex somewhere in the future.
Thanks, David!
Ross, Peter, all curious about small, pocket-sized cameras:
As anybody who follows my blog knows, I love pocket cameras. When I do a paying job or such, I use the big cameras but otherwise I keep my Canon Powershot s90 in my pocket and that is my daily camera of record. As for worries about camera shake and such, no, it is a very stable camera.
It does have some bad flaws, though, primarily the way the tiny lens is set into the barrel with a protective piece of flat glass over it. It is very difficult to clean and after a few cleanings, you will never get a razor sharp picture with it again. It is kind of like there is a thin, grimy, film over all your images.
Or at least mine. But I so love it that I am interested in the song, plus a few other tiny newcomers. And I am waiting to see what Canon comes up with next.
Of course, I was forced into pocket cameras in 2008 after I shattered my right shoulder, got it replaced, and then could only shoot with my left hand for many months. I had to use a pocket camera and that was the one good thing that came out of being hurt.
I look forward to the day – and I believe it is not far away – when I can put away the big cameras for good.
Dust on the sensor, though, is a real problem with interchangeable digital cameras, all right. But then so was dust on negatives in the old days.
Haven’t tried the iPad yet, but I am eager too. I have figured out that to accomplish what I want I must add a magazine to my blog and I believe I want to optimize it for the iPad, so, thank you, mtomalty, for the link. Maybe it will help.
Lee Guthrie and mtomalty,
Having started out as a landscape photographer (and before that, a landscape painter), I am aware of what seems to be a noticeable lack of interest in that on BURN… (Glenn Campbell and Justin Partyka being of course exceptions). My hunch all along, going back to Road Trips days, has been that people attracted to DAH and his style of photography (and his social persona and charisma, let’s face it) tend not to be the pure landscape types, more likely the ‘people’ types. Somewhere I know DAH himself wrote “I rarely take landscapes”, and just last week he was complaining on Twitter that he had to line up a plane for aerial shots (I assume this was for the NatGeo OBX article), where he wrote, “I have never really taken aerial photography seriously as art,” or words to that effect.
At first I was quite taken aback, and then rather chagrined to read that, but in thinking about it, I guess it is not so surprising. But it is one more glaring reminder of the vast differences in taste and concerns between DAH and myself on some fairly significant issues. Landscape photography and aerial photography were the genres that first made me want to pick up a camera, I rank Japanese landscape photographer Midorikawa Yoichi and Swiss aerial photographer Georg Gerster as strong early influences, and Yann Arthus-Bertrand is still one of the people whose work I admire most. (And I think he has done more for environmental consciousness than a whole slew of green polemicists).
Mtomalty’s response, “Cityslicker!” to the proposition of “why would anyone want to take landscape pictures with no people in them?” is one I too have often felt here on BURN… yeah, a bunch of cityslickers, and bohemians as well… and a lot of people who like to spend time in bars and crowded music clubs. Before everybody jumps on me, let me say I have learned to appreciate some ‘cityslicker’ photography, and in my younger years put in a fair amount of time in various urban waterholes. And I have enjoyed living in or extended visits to some of the world’s great cities.
But there is a sensibility to non-urban landscapes and rural and natural scenes that it seems not everyone has. As a student and teacher of geography, one of my main interests was ‘reading’ a landscape, in much the same way that many of you ‘read’ a photograph… and understanding the many meanings that are engraved in the landscape, its history, its ecology, its age, its underlying geology, its evolution… how wind and water and fire and human beings have sculpted it through time… not to mention its purely aesthetic qualities… and much of my memory and emotional life has been bound up in landscapes or is triggered by them. Those who went through schooling in the British Isles may know a book called “The Making of the English Landscape” which is one of the examplars of this kind of thinking about land. I took and continue to take landscape pictures, some with people in them, some without… I started putting more people in when I lived in Asia, simply because it was rare to find a landscape in East Asia without people in it. But for me ‘environmental portraiture’ means something quite different than it appears to mean to others… in other words, it’s a portrait of the environment, as often as not with people in it, rather than a portrait of a person who happens to have an environment around them, a la Arnold Newman.
Environmental portraiture isn’t quite it. To me EP means sitting someone out in a scene somewhere and taking their portrait. But others have named it as that, people in a landscape as EP.
Sidney, regarding “..understanding the many meanings that are engraved in the landscape..” it makes a lot of sense to me now that I have done the floral work. I saw expression of emotion in many of the shots and they gave me a particular feeling when I saw the photos.
There have been some amazing landscape photographers (Ansel Adams for goodness sakes) so it isn’t that I don’t enjoy looking at other’s work with landscapes they just don’t form up for me often. I would love to see an essay on landscapes here to see what comes through.
And interestingly, the landscapes don’t grab me to shoot but I love rooms and interiors of old buildings. Sidney may be correct in that the slant of this blog follows the teacher who started it. It makes sense. Doesn’t mean we all wouldn’t love to see landscapes and architecture work.
Interesting.
FROSTFROG…
Sorry to hear about your accident with your shoulder. I had a motorcycle accident plowing into a van’s mirror which pulled out in front of me collecting it with my right shoulder, which is starting to become really niggardly. Nice you discovered the power of a different style , technique of photographing as a result though.
Thanks for the mention of the ‘power s90’ . i’ll give it a look.
Here are 108 landscapes…
http://johnvink.com/story.php?title=108_Landscapes
And here is a hilarious article about Yann Arthus-Bertrand for those of you who read French…
http://www.liberation.fr/terre/0101651756-du-vent-dans-les-pales
Basically the article about Yann Arthus-Bertrand talks about the fact that he was photographing the Paris-Dakar rallye for ten years (not really good for his carbon footprint), that he uses a petrol gulping chopper for his aerial views, and that he was waiting for the oil to penetrate the bayou in a dramatic enough way before lifting off to photograph the BP spill. He is called a teddybear ecologist.
You might also want to look at Jean Gaumy’s landscapes. Here are just a few
http://www.magnumphotos.com/Archive/C.aspx?VP3=ViewBox&CT=Album&ALID=2K1HRGMD02L
He has many more on his region of Normandy.
Peter, not that it can be classified as a point and shoot, but since you have a M6, perhaps a M8 might be an option, used not cheap but a lot less expensive than when it was put on the market.
Landscapes, to my mind comes Henry Gruyaert..
Argh, HARRY Gruyaert..
http://www.magnumphotos.com/Archive/c.aspx?VP=XSpecific_MAG.StoryDetail_VPage&pid=2TYRYDDWUYMQ
Mark Power is someone I enjoy, especially this series…A Series of Edges.
http://www.magnumphotos.com/Archive/C.aspx?VP3=ViewBox_VPage&VBID=2K1HZOW5U31J9&CT=Search&DT=Image
I hadn’t realised he was Magnum too.
LEE…
i am up for essays on landscapes, cityscapes, still life..didn’t we just publish one? Julien Coquentin “Strange Rain”….definitely up for more
BRIAN…
congratulations on the NYT … be sure to post a link whenever you are published….you will have to put one foot in front of the other in the coming weeks of course, but the main thing is to think about exactly where this takes you….again, as i mentioned in a previous comment, once your name is associated with a certain type of work, then it tends to stick…
so be happy..enjoy….and be careful as well..someday you will remember that i said this to you….
i guess the point to think about right now is this: whatever you plan to become as a photographer, you should become it right now…
you cannot do one thing now and then think that later you will do something else…yes, you will grow and evolve, but i am talking about the image you will make of yourself for yourself…right now i have an image of you associated with your fighter story…b&w solid photo-j….i could imagine you will then take me on more “fighter” stories and i will see a book one day OR this was just a passing story and you will become something else…again it is not about types of stories necessarily , but about style…
frankly, i do not know how you should look at the day rates …my feeling has always been that you want to have good work published even if the rate is a bit low, BUT you have great work published and it increases your profile, then by all means go for it…
on the other hand, the worst combo is low pay AND poor representation…
in other words you do not want to not get paid and not get published well either…i am assuming you have no copyright problems and own the work and they are just purchasing one time/first time rights (for print and for net)…
anyway, a nice turning point for you Brian….i look forward to seeing what you will do….make a mark…now
cheers, david
EVA…VICKY…LEE
you have chosen a couple of great landscape photographers…Harry G and Mark P….also check out Mark Klett…Lee, you might get over Ansel once you check out Klett….
SIDNEY…
what you wrote would make some kind of sense if i only published here on Burn work that somehow resembled what i do…and i think you can find very little on Burn that parrots my particular penchants…the fact that i do not shoot what you call landscapes as my primary modus operendi outside of my professional assignments does not mean that i do not appreciate landscapes…if you were to look backstage here at Burn , i think you would find that it is not me who is not publishing landscapes, it is Burn readers who are not shooting what i would call leading edge landscapes…or at least not many…we have published some.
funny you said you were “taken aback” because of my twitter comment yet i will bet you just might like the picture i took …in other words you were taken aback by my honest revealing of motivation or comment but probably not by the picture itself….what if you found out that Bertrand has a fear of flying? would you be “taken aback” ?? by the way, no not a fan of Bertrand…too easy or too too commercial or just too too….i appreciate it, but i am not going to rush to the book store to see his latest work…i already know what it will be…can you see what i mean?
i love landscapes…love, love….might shoot one in about five minutes as the sun lights the dunes out my window…..what i do not like are what i call “pretty pictures”, stock photography, which some folks do call landscapes..post card shots…sailboats and sunsets..trees framing a red ball of sun over the Grand Canyon etc..camera club stuff…sorry, i really do have an aversion to those…
now just to keep the record really straight and to provide a bit of humor here and to really test your memory or sense of research or whatever….in what issue of Natgeo did one photog shoot an entire issue of the mag with landscapes? what subject, what photog, what year??
cheers, david
p.s. i see that Bob posted simultaneous and mentioned Edward Burtynsky…yes, yes to him ….and earlier was mentioned Mark Klett, Mark Power, Alec Soth and Harry Gruyaert…yes to all those photogs as landscape artists and of course to Bob’s favorite Giacomelli who was good at just about everything!! really…
Sidney “)))
i LOVE landscapes….and ironic you’d mention that….i’m about to work on an project on landscapes and emptiness….beginning in Nova Scotia, of all places…no faces for a while :))….even sent david/anton a sneak preview with a single of a Tree, only a tree…..
and by the way, Sidney, John, Eva, David and all, here are 2 of my beloved ‘landscape’ photographers:
the man that made me want to shoot the land:
1) my hero Mario Giacomelli:…look through his website and you’ll find lots of landscapes….here is one small example
http://www.mariogiacomelli.it/75_presa.html
and
of course “local”: ;)) toronto-based photographer Edward Burtynsky…who just happens to be a terrific guy….
http://www.edwardburtynsky.com/
I’ve always liked landscapes, prefer them generally for the type of thing I hang on the wall. I love the Hudson valley school of painters and often go to the catskills and try to catch some of their light. Somehow though, upbringing I guess, I don’t associate that so much with serious photography. That plus I subscribed to Outdoor Photographer for awhile and found the mainstream of landscape photography makes me nauseous. Still, I shoot a lot of landscapes just because I’m out there looking at them and have a camera with me. Here are a few from my winter of B&W (warning, these could no doubt make many serious photographers nauseous themselves).
I don’t quite understand what you’re saying to Brian, David. Is it best to have an identifiable style and only show images that fit that conception of yourself? Can one have several styles? Of course one can, but can that multi-stylistic approach work on the higher levels? I’m thinking the top pros seem to be pretty consistent in their look.
Ah, blew the link again. Probably the photo gods dropping a hint. Damn them.
I second that on Local Photographer Edward Burtynsky – top bloke! An interesting photographer here , dares to point his camera at the infinity of nothing and still comeback with something.
http://www.murrayfredericks.com.au/currentexhibition-lake-eyre0607.asp
Glenn! :)))))
gorgeous gorgeous stuff….damn…..thanks for that, didn’t know his work before…just breathtaking….write u this week before i leave…i’m so far behind in emails and facebook, i’ve jumped off the earth for now :)))
cheers brother
bob
Oh, yes, Giacomelli, of course.. Gianni Berengo Gardin also has some great work, doesn’t seem to have a online site though..
Peter Grant, I’d hold off buying any new camera until after the bi-annual trade show Photokina in late September. Like you, I’m looking for a small, discreet street shooting camera and, like in 2008, I’m hoping someone delivers. My hope is that Canon or Nikon bring out a digital rangefinder with a Leica M mount. I love Leica M film cameras but not the digital M: too broad in width and reliability problems.
Brian, congratulations on the NYT assignment!
Mike.
You know Bob, when I saw that Burtynsky oil field photo at the Brooklyn museum, I was deeply impressed and like it regardless of how he did it, but I was curious. Turns out he hired a crane.
Unfortunately, Glenn’s link reminds me of a lot of what I hate about Outdoor Photographer. Strikes me as kitsch.
No MW Not Kitch – ‘Kn great! What separates this work from the stuff you are dismissing is that he has started with the Idea of space, of nothingness,with possibly one of the ugliest places on earth, not starting with a beautiful vista which where most landscapers start, there’s only one thing in common with most landscape photography that the Lake Ere series has and that is a horizon.
…as a ex landscaper/stonemason my idea of landscape photography is very different to what is being discussed here
Glenn I saw his doco sure his intent was spot on but he sure lost the plot as he went along
MW…
what i said to Brian was this:…short version….NYT big brand name….Brian impressed….everybody impressed…danger is in getting too impressed and losing your own identity…create your own identity and do not let their brand dominate your own…since their brand is going to put Brian’s work “out there”, he must make sure his brand , his name, is not mis-used, abused, filtered, Musaked…many styles? no way…hard to have even one….over 30-50 years should be , will be, an evolution..but trying to be all things to all people in hopes of later doing it “my way” will “make Jack a dull boy”…
cheers, david
I only began (seriously) photographing people about 4-5 years ago; before that it was all nature, natural history and landscapes. I became bored for some reason and became more and more attracted to photographing people and their lives.
That was probably all pretty weird when you think I was often too self-conscious to photograph wild orchids growing beside the road!
What I dislike the most about “typical” landscape photography is the overuse of HDR; and those skies straight out “The Ten Commandments” with Charlton Heston. It makes those 1970’s tobacco grad filter skies look positively classy! I suppose everything that’s new (HDR) gets thrashed to death initially though.
As for Mark Power; I love “The Shipping Forecast”. Especially the way he has made something special out of something so ordinary and everyday. Also; I think it’s great that he was inspired to do it by seeing the shipping forecast on an old tea-towel. If only I could afford the book.
Cheers :-)
IMANTS…
there are many versions/definitions of landscape photography…you do many landscapes in my view
MW :))
Mike, yea, i was fascinated with Burtynsky too when i first moved to Toronto (hadn’t known who he was prior to moving to toronto)….and yet, evenutally, just surrendered to his work…both its aesthetic beauty (his prints are gorgeous) and the ideas and passion that underlie the work….his early work on environmental devastation was a wake up call….he’s also nice, friendly and totally down to earth….for years, marina and i used the darkroom in his lab and he’s very open about his work and his prints….and a real nice guy
and i also love the Hudson Valley school….of landscape painting….inspired and among my favore of american 19th cwentury art…:)))
Eva: i had the pleasure of seeing 3 Giacomelli prints 3 years ago….just sublime…among the most beauty, tiny things i’ve ever seen…..and like i sad, he made landscape a part of my photographic venacular :))…will love him ’til the dying breath ;)))
cheers
David I used to build the landscape and then photograph it………..
Maybe I got bored because it was stock photo work mostly? Because I loved Kyung Lee’s Island and similar work, Especially Sylvia Plachy’s “landscapes”
As an aside; I bought Plachy’s “Goings On About Town: Photographs for The New Yorker” and was really surprised how different it was from her personal work. A great deal more commercial.
David Glenn would probably back me on this ……… Living in Australia , travelling this country trying to tune into how the aboriginals are connected to the land one cannot be but influenced by this land of theirs
Imants – for sure 3 weeks spent talking to yourself in the middle of a salt pan is not to be advised but I still admire the results after so many years of being inundated by Ken Duncan et al …any one attempting to do anything other than the cliche Uluru at sunset will be howled down in this part of the world..Aussies love their landscapes…especially love them when printed on a tea towel.
How did he lose his way?
Imants – THAT is my own personal 64 000 dollar question!
Glenn he seemed to go into self and lost connection with place.
I forgot…It’s not about me…a lesson for all?
BRIAN
“Not a chance in the world am I going to get sucked into a debate about day rates, possibly burning a bridge before it’s ever built.”
Yeah, probably not worth the debate. Anyway what DAH said about day rates is correct. I have a freelancer contract with the NYT so I know the rates. The rights part is acceptable and of course we all wish that day rates were better everywhere. I guess a few years ago we could blame the publications, but in the current economic situation, I don’t think there is anything they can do. They are struggling also. I was not bringing it up to bash the NYT or anyone else. It was just to make a point to the people here that still may feel that there is tons of money to be made out there. The reality is that the economy is bad, publications are struggling, there are A LOT of photographers out there all looking for work in the same places you are. It is difficult for veteran photojournalists who have been laid off in recent years and are freelancing and even more so for those starting out.
DAH talks about the style of your work and what you want to be as a photographer. Well, I assume that the NYT has seen your work, so they should know who they are getting. I would not change the way I shoot because of the publication. This is a bad trap to fall into. Shoot the assignment the way you would shoot it if it was self-assigned. The NYT does not seem to have a problem running images that are not “TYPICAL NEWSPAPER” images. The legendary Steve Crowley, who I shoot with on Capitol Hill and at the White House, is an expert at shooting assignments “differently” than everyone else. He always seems to come up with something different but at the same time something that is uniquely Steve Crowley.
I see no reason to compromise your style for a particular publication. Yes the NYT is a prestigious publication and a great way to be seen. But if it is not a good fit for your work, it will not be the end of the world. BUT, I have looked through the work on your website, and I can see no reason why it would not be.
…trying to be all things to all people in hopes of later doing it “my way” will “make Jack a dull boy”…
Thanks David. I didn’t mean to hijack your advice to Brian, which is no doubt sound. Just being self-centered. As a photographer I don’t think I’ve ever considered being anything to anybody. I look at every situation and try to capture what I see, or at least to emphasize some aspect of it. It’s now hitting home, especially since I’ve been doing serious work on my website that I have a variety of styles and I’m open to the idea that that’s a bad thing. It’s got nothing to do with consciously trying to be different. Probably more of a multi-personality issue. Anyway, just wondered what you thought about it in general, not specific to Brian’s great opportunity with the Times. It does seem that those recognized as great photographers, and usually artists as well, have one consistent, identifiable style. It evolves, of course, but it’s not like mammals, reptiles, and insects evolving separately.
Glenn, sorry, was typing fast. Kitsch is probably too strong. Still, if that place is so ugly, why is he making it look so conventionally beautiful? I think art is usually more about demonstrating how subjects are unconventionally beautiful.
And yea Bob, conversely, I was really knocked out by the Burtynsky exhibition at the BMA. Not up to figuring out how to describe my feelings about it now, but definitely much deeper than conventionally beautiful. The crane shot brings up a point I find interesting. Another example is a photographer I know who did a project photographing meteor impact craters. Went around the world to places like Namibia renting helicopters, produced some fantastic large works on canvas. I don’t mean this as a whine or complaint, but those two incidents together made me realize how much of the photography in the top galleries is dependent on means that most people simply cannot afford. I guess that makes sense in a world where everyone has an amazing, in the historical sense, digital camera. But man, I tell ya, I really wanna get me one of those cranes. They’re great for video, too.
…but in the current economic situation, I don’t think there is anything they can do
Well, theoretically they could cut their ridiculously extravagant executive compensation.
“trying to be all things to all people in hopes of later doing it “my way” will “make Jack a dull boy”…”
Exactly. And the other problem that comes up is that when prospective clients are looking at your work, you don’t want them wondering which version of “Jack” they are getting for their assignment.
They should be able to look at your work and know if it fits or not. You may not get the assignment, but in reality it is probably a win-win situation.
“Well, theoretically they could cut their ridiculously extravagant executive compensation.”
I hate to say it but, how is making that statement any different from them telling you to work for their day rates?
Unfortunately they have a right to run their business the way they want just as you do.
how is making that statement any different from them telling you to work for their day rates?
Oh, I can think of tens of millions of reasons.
IMANTS…
yes, i know you did…i have not really photographed my garden which is the one outside my own area of expertise hobby so to speak…i know nothing of gardening at all…i sort of point and shoot if you will…but i can see that someone with experience and skill might just indeed create something worth photographing…
Imants – I’ve been thinking about landscape photography as a place of Ideas rather than representation for a while now , still trying to shake the habit of making pictures that please the eye , I remember a time in the gibson desert with an old man trying to find the desert oak he was born under and the closer we got the singing got louder and would then suddenly stop , singing your way into the country …I had never experienced anything like it…
MW…
did not think you hijacked…legit question and important…the most important question..
it is easy to get into the multi style thing simply because at the beginning of your career, and you just might need to pay the rent, you might get asked to do this that and the other thing…everyone does and everyone has done it…HOWEVER, any time your name is going to be under a photograph in a large mass circulation publication, you had better make damned sure you are willing to have your name on it..yes, yes all of us have been burned a time or two..but you want the majority of bylines to reflect at least close to who you are, and then you will still need the books and exhibitions to tell the whole story..no magazine or newspaper is going to tell the whole story of you as an author of telling the publication story, but you do not want to be totally misrepresented either…as i said, and this is very important, once your name swings in one camp or the other, it is very very hard to get a new identity…what you do early on will stick….
cheers, david
Glenn I always found it astounding how people speak about not going to but I came from and that is positioning one self within the landscape. That from there
David all the shots I took of the landscapes I built were just records of the gardens (and there are very few photos) I never really took anything worthwhile photographically ……. I guess it was all there as a physical space and my input had ceased once the garden was completed
Glenn making pictures that don’t please the eye of the Australian landscape is pretty hard as it is so visually enthralling.
I’m a bit surprised Imants. Never figured you for an outdoorsy type. Most all I know of Australian desert I saw in Road Warrior. Looks fantastic, that, but I know there’s much, much more.
GLENN…
Singing Into the Country…or Song of the Oak….great title for you mate
Worked most of my life outdoors from mines to shit caring……… even did a stint as a homeless one lived the streets.
re NYT: I was recently in to discuss the possibility of me shooting for them, and because of my general hesitancy apropos to what DAH is saying I had a wonderful conversation about all of this above – and the lovely editor has reinforced that he, at least, genuinely seeks the personal and authored vision of the photogs he works with, and it is a disappointment when provided with images that the photog made because he was creating “NYT images” alone. Also, the editor – who is smart and together – reminded me that if the editor is doing his job, he will only assign work that he feels is in line with the individual photographer, but will not be offended if the photog feels the need to decline for personal creative reasons. Additionally, there is room for longer term pieces, that directly reflect what the photog wants to shoot…all seems like a very respectable offer to me.
Great job looking after people’s shit and driving the dunny cart
DAH, did you catch the piece on OBX in this past Saturday’s NYT? Photos by Chris Bickford:
http://nyti.ms/baOeo8
ERICA…
many thanks for filling me in on current practice at NYT…yes, that all sounds good and is in line with the best of the picture publications and the best editors…always my personal experience as well….good…i was not necessarily suggesting to Brian that this might be otherwise, which it could, but for him just to be careful..sounds like he is, and you are as well….and cool that three or four different Burn photogs are now shooting there…and good on the New York Times for having these good photographer policies and relationships….you may remember Michelle McNally came to our loft class…she and Cathy Ryan at the NYT Magazine have always maintained the highest standards, but i did not know of what new people and policies they might have…..anyway i would certainly expect no less than what you have stated and can confirm…..NYT has always been my favorite newspaper and in recent years their photography departments have risen way up to match what has always been the finest word paper…
JUSTIN…
yes, i did…and i have been tracking Chris’ NYT work all along….
cheers, david
DAH –
Thank you so much for the words of advice. I never like to do anything half-assed, and I certainly won’t do that now, as the foundation that I’ve built is starting to show some results. If that weren’t the case, I would have given up long ago.
The style shown in my fight pics is who I’ve become as a photographer. It’s what I showed them in my portfolio book. It’s what they’re going to get. Like everything else, they’ll either like it or not. I’m comfortable enough with my style to let the opinion be based on that.
When published, I will post the link. Thanks everyone for the encouraging words.
1900.
1901. The late and unlamented 20th century arises from the ashes to plague us yet again.
DAH – it does seem good – tho i bet there are as many editor/photog types of relationships as there re editors/photogs – and the editor i am in communication with has an expansive vision – as well i didn’t seek them out but the inverse, so that may be weighing in my relationship favor – but heartening all around. I’ve yet to shoot anything for them, so it is all a work in progress, and yet to be seen if it is a good fit…for both sides!
ERICA…BRIAN..
i really do not give advice, i only make suggestions based on experience and the experiences i hear from others…in any case, all sounds just fine…you two both have your act together i think…it only takes one or maybe two really like minded editors to make your career…it is a total myth to think that you either need to please or should please every editor out there…i look forward to the work…
cheers, david
I think you just iterated what so many forget – that we should be aligning with like minded editors and people in general. There is a lot of talk about the challenges of getting work, but I think it is often forgotten that one shouldn’t be splattering their efforts all around and hoping to hit the target, as if all work is suitable work, while forgetting discernment and clarity. In my book, the work I turn down is as important as the work I take on.
DAVID,
First, I was not at all accusing you of an editorial bias against landscapes in what you publish on BURN… sorry if that seemed to be the implication… rather, I was suggesting that the BURN following, people who read it regularly and make submissions, were less likely to be landscape types, and that landscape work was less likely to be submitted to BURN, which you have partially confirmed… (By the way, I forgot to mention landscape singles you published by Tom Hyde and Marcin. I’m sure I have missed some others as well).
DAH wrote: “…by the way, no not a fan of Bertrand…too easy or too too commercial or just too too….i appreciate it, but i am not going to rush to the book store to see his latest work…i already know what it will be…can you see what i mean?” Actually, yes, I think I see exactly what you mean… it started out as a good idea but he turned it into a predictable commercial formula. I’m not rushing out to buy it either. Still, I think his work has had a real impact on popular consciousness, aside from its value as pure photography or his attitude and peccadilloes. (Many thanks, JOHN VINK, for the links and anecdotal translation).
Certainly I would put Edward Burtynsky at the top of the list of people currently doing significant landscape and environmental photography (I love his work), and Harry Gruyaert on the same list (although I am not personally drawn to his work).
I can only agree with those who have bewailed the proliferation of HDR overkill and the kind of calendar picture and postcard landscape work that generally appears in photography magazines these days, and the mountainous plethora of ‘pretty pictures’ of the kind that the camera clubs churn out. On the other hand, I suppose it’s possible that one could become overly reactive against “pretty pictures” that might also be good landscapes. After all, much of the natural (and even parts of the manmade) world are extremely beautiful. I confess that I personally have the same phobia about most work that is self-consciously “edgy,” which all too often means the photographic equivalent of putting a musical instrument through fuzz distortion, overdrive, wah-wah, phaser, and digital reverb, rather than just amplifying the rich and beautiful tones of the acoustic instrument as faithfully as possible. All to often it seems to me that what is ‘edgy’ is trying to make the world uglier than it really is.
I don’t know the answer to your quiz question, David, unfortunately haven’t time this morning for extensive research, am naturally curious to hear the answer, but I would like to mention the work of one David Alan Harvey in the August 1996 National Geographic special issue on Mexico in which almost all your photographs are gorgeous landscapes… I was just beginning to make the transition from college geography teacher to ‘serious’ photographer, and it was this issue that really awakened me to the names David Harvey, Alex Webb, and Stuart Franklin.
Cheers,
Sidney, I remember the Mexico issue too. My favourite issues were when either DAH, Bill Allard or Jim Stanfield were featured.
Mike.
One more link to (not only) landscapes: George Georgiou:
http://www.georgegeorgiou.net/gallery.php?ProjectID=148
Hi Sidney –
you have me thinking about why I don’t think of myself as a lover of landscape photography (tho of course I do appreciate it in many forms)…I think my reason in part is that when i see strong landscape work I want to experience the place firsthand, and the photo itself feels more like a tease or a substitution than a fulfillment of place – and usually when I see strong peopled imagery I am content to be the voyeur, as no matter how wonderful the goings-on, say a Cuba image from DAH filled with light and movement, my first response is to celebrate a moment I can look at deeply without disturbing. So, a great landscape image makes me want to go somewhere and actually makes me a bit agitated, but a great peopled image makes me want to stay with the image and raises my energy. That’s odd :)
! DAH –
Looks as if you have one photo included in Documerica – the program sponsored by the Environmental Protection Agency to photographically document subjects of environmental concern in America during the 1970s. Can you tell us what you remember from the initiative? Why only one photo from you?
http://www.flickr.com/photos/usnationalarchives/collections/72157620729903309/
BRIAN, ALL,
Congrats on your NYT assignment… with one caveat. I think all should be careful about making pronouncements about assignments and potential work on this or any forum until the work is a done deal and in the can so to speak. Far too often things can come up – story pushed back, or canceled, writer flakes out, subject uncooperative, client accepts and pays for work but then buries it. And so on. Of course none of this will happen to you :) but just saying it’s sometimes good to hold these things close, or at least not make too big of a deal about it (which you haven’t but it can potentially spin out ala dialogue).
Same can be said of personal work – I recall our lovely Patricia going on and on about how amazing her gay couple shoot was going to be and then… well we all agreed to agree the photos themselves were pretty much a non-starter. That doesn’t mean to not be passionate about anything we shoot, good, bad, small, or large and share it and take the laurels or lumps as they may be just don’t put the mouth ahead of the eye. And be careful about posting about clients before the fact as you never know who may be reading or what may come until the shutter actually fires (and you have done right by not mentioning rates, subject, dates, etc).
Love your fighter work – you really get close in.
Best,
CP
ERICA..
absolutely…
SIDNEY..
i had forgotten about that Mexico issue, but now remember taking great pleasure in working on it…some places just lend themselves to the type of landscapes i do like and Mexico is one of them….while i rarely select a landscape for inclusion in one of my books (DivSoul does have a few) i do work very hard to make good landscapes..i think my point in the twitter comment was that generally landscapes and air shots i do because they tend to be necessary rather than do they as something i am drawn naturally as much as close to my people work…ironically, for the project i am on right now, landscapes or seascapes do feel quite natural for me and it is the environment as much as the people here that beckon…air shots, and i do work very intensely on them as well, really do fall into the category of “work”…i would never shoot an air shot were i not being commissioned to do so…yet i love to fly, envy birds, dream of levitation in my sleep, once parachuted for fun, and am getting ready to fly one of those motorized hang gliders, i still do not like air shots as photography…my photography that is…
ok, off to shoot…from a boat…..always nice to hear from you Sidney…
cheers, david
Picked up the link to an interview by Micha Bar Am, can’t remember where, quite interesting and worth to listen methinks:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6xuX4vFGIU&feature
And here a link to his work:
http://www.michabaram.com/
finally finally just now the skies were the way i like them for little over an hour and i had the shooting rush that has been shelved for too long! thank you sun and clouds
DAH, loved Klett, you were right. This is what I liked best in a page I found of his with Byron Wolfe:
http://www.klettandwolfe.com/
people on the edge
postcardmashup2
dancer
FillinInMoranFull
They got my heart to pumping. Checked out a few others mentioned here but have to say Klett & Wolfe are the most exciting. Exciting landscapes. Yea. And I still am not over Adams; I have yet to see anyone capture a b&w landscape as well as his. But then landscapes in b&w tend to not grab my attention. Klett & Wolff mix b&w within their color panoramic shots which enhance the whole piece. John Vink does his in b&w and when I went back to his link to verify something I was about to say the link was messed up. But what I was going to say was his tend to be the landscapes directly around his subjects and not what I would consider typical landscapes.
Air shots: I remember a great shoot of water sport racers across the Moloka’i Channel in a helicopter with the doors off and at times feeling the spray of the water hit me in the face we flew so close. That was an exciting shoot. In fact, that is how I got my favorite shot of the windmills on the West Maui Mountains; the pilot (vietnam vet) was about to take us back through the Iao Valley again for the third time and I asked for a warmer route. Helicopter shoots are fabulous and one of my favorite prints on my wall is of the Mississippi Delta my friend David Teeple took from a helicopter. Ah, diversity.
Charles you are correct in your comments about getting the horse before the cart. It has happened to me many times and over time that lesson has sunk in. It is a good one. Because you can talk an idea out of existence and it was good to hear it as a reminder again.
DAH, In response to your quiz could it be an essay by Stuart Franklin called Celebrations of Earth that was published in the January 2000 Millennium issue.
KURT…
nope…and no quiz , no mystery, no prizes…i do not remember the year, but i have the only by-lined “whole issue” in Natgeo history on my whole issue National Parks piece..mostly natural history and landscapes….however, this is far from anything i hold high photographically…it was my first year as a staff photographer after winning Magazine Photog of the Year…so, i was being very “corporate” so to speak…well, not to worry….i got over it….
cheers, david
Charles; “I think all should be careful about making pronouncements about assignments and potential work on this or any forum until the work is a done deal and in the can so to speak”
I’m a bit the same; it always seems as though you’re tempting fate. It’s always good to get a few runs on the board first. Nothing worse than proclaiming loud and far about what you’re going to do, and then it all goes tits up! :-)
AKAKY,
1918 …Arnold Newman
AKA Arnold Abner Newman
Born: 3-Mar-1918
Birthplace: New York City
Occupation: Photographer
Executive summary: Environmental portraitist
What not to LOVE !!!
BURN BURNIANS BURN cause BURN is the place to BE !!!
I will be back
oupss…ROSSY beat me…1919
Some excellent cityscapes:
http://www.kevincooleyphotography.com/nachtflug_01.html
http://www.christopher-thomas.de
(check his New York sleeps book project)
and there is also Simon Norfolk with the work he did on Afghanistan…
ROSS,
I only speak from experience… :):)
CP
THODORIS:
“Bone and elongated rib of our throat: all that is left of our singing when the song has gone rung.”
i’ve sent you the text….hope you like it….
check your email….
cheers
bob
so have been writing for a fellow Burn-ian’s book….and exhausted, but lovely to help collaborate….so, i’m outta here for a while (no, not leaving ;)) ), but off to shoot white sky, wider ocean in nova scotia, to get away from the world and finish the photo shit and more importantly, get away from the world and get silence….and, i’ve packed Proust (finally started it) and some cameras and want nothing but wife, son and just sea…..i’ll even take poor light if there’s silence to bite upon the land….
enjoy…sharing some tunes from my favorite duo….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2F2oEpif-6k&feature=related
i’ve loved every album these 2 have made….and always thing of panos when i listen to them….though Lanegan is closer to my age ;)))
enjoy ya’ll
b
EVA…
thanks for the suggestion you gave. Had a look at used M8 but the only thing I worry about, well, besides not being able to afford it is, now I’m thinking about it, is that there may be some damage to the sensor and things like that. Oh, the vagueries of buying on the internet.
thanks Eva. peter.
Methamphetamine blues…
Super dope;)
digital/archiving …… by DANNY LYON via american suburb x
Then you can show them to your subjects, or friends, or whomever is sitting next to you, and you do this immediately. You can email them to your friends, family and clients. And then what? I suppose you can make shitty prints, either by yourself or at Walgreens, and hand them around, wondering if they will fade or last. Hopefully they will all fade very quickly. I have heard that Ilford makes a good paper with which I might approximate an album print, but after a year of trying I have not yet been able to figure out how to download the correct driver for my printer. And of course you can archive it on your hard drive. Make sure you do that, so they last at least two years. Then your hard drive will crash, as they apparently are supposed to do. But you will have back up, which will crash, and you will have progeny, your children or your sister’s children and their children – (trust me on this one, if they don’t care about your pictures, no body will), who will devote themselves to preserving all the forms of technology present and future, so that they can see your pictures. For example they might create a room devoted to electronic gizmos, with every generation of “stuff”, which they will call “The I-Museum” the sole purpose of which will be to look at your pictures. Your progeny will get together and after a B-BQ of organic veggies raised on the Moon, they will whip out a disk called DAD, and there you have it. I already have created a room like this! It is called the I-Attic. In it I have every Apple computer I’ve ever owned because each contains the appropriate years of my letters, writings, business deals, and, alas, pictures. This room of stuff has replaced what used to fit in a small file cabinet. Paper files, with, paper letters inside!
v: :)))))
that’s it…..that was what i was trying to suggest last week;)))…Danny L is a hero……….
some shit i wrote today for a Burnian’s book…of empty rooms….which itself is an archive…
“You: that light bulb suspended in that empty room between the two curtain-less windows where we fucked and dreamed and broke wide all that we had been told to keep wrapped up, the bulb like my cum dripping like the dip of a spider’s web stretched from the pull and tug of gravity’s salacious hunger acted upon the falling weight of a pouch of eggs, the tug and hone toward birth and the blink of flash, there and gone: all that, distance and dance, lick and lack, cock and cunt, hope and yelp, we married in that empty room and the walls and the time and the light and the hunger and all that now, here, the moss of aged cement and bright loss, you.”
running now, for sure….
b
Danny Lyon (in that post) sounds like an old man whose time really has come to an end. And he is part and parcel of that happening with that attitude.
I have to say I agree with Danny Lyon. What once was so easy has now increased in difficulty and cost many fold. The only danger of losing items in a file cabinet is from fire or flood or other natural calamity. And of course moving and falling out of the moving truck. So now I guess I need to make duplicates of all the paper files and photos with their digitally created negatives, and store in two places to ensure that if one gets it the other survives. Then, of course if I forget what is in the files and where I have them secured away in their duplicity I should place a master list of files in my bank box and each time I update it replace it with the revised version. Then there is the matter of the bank box key–can reside in my home safe. The key to the safe is in a hidden area of my home and the combination hidden away where only I know. Whew. Good thing I am not attached or make my living from my photos. The stress of holding on to them could kill me.
I saw a HBO documentary on a paparazzi (sorry can’t remember his name but has been doing since the days of Beatles) and one portion was on how he stores his negatives and prints. He has a giant room with boxes all separated into areas marked by the name of the celebrity on the boxes. So Jackie O in several boxes in one area, Beatles another, etc. When someone wants a print he walks into his storage room and pulls out the box and grabs a print or negative to make one. Seemed pretty simple to me. He does have assistants to help in this effort.
It just seems that the more technologically advanced we become the more complicated our lives. Isn’t it supposed to be the more advanced technologically we become the easier our lives? I imagine all these ants working 24/7 in these little cubicles inventing new and better ways to deal with information, and others in a room above working on convincing us how important and necessary it is to have the newest and best even though antennas stop working, apps get jailbreak-ed from rival corporations, operating systems become useless before the computer they came with die, and computers die almost to the minute the 3 year extended warranty expires.
I’m just sayin…
Hello all. I’m back. At least, I think I am….
good light, and it looks like I have a bit of reading to do to catch up.
As to the thread title question….a story to tell, or the ability to tell it…while part of me wishes it was the “story to tell” answer, for I think there are many, many important stories to be told, that we are compelled to tell, that need to be told….i think deep inside I believe that even the most significant story to be told, if told in an uncomplimentary way, will fall flat upon tha palate and senses….while the ability to tell the story, in a compelling, creative, personal way, can very well make a non-story something significant…
Perhaps the mastery of craft is to not only have the ability to tell a story in a compelling way, but to have the open depth of soul to find stories that need to be told and resonate with the many…
i hope all are well, those I know and those I will soon meet as I read backwards through these pages…
good light, all.
a.
I for one applaud the way it is now… We all here would not even be having this conversation if it were not for the 2 most recent most important inventions to humankind of the last decades…
Contrary to what many might say about their lives, personally my life is MUCH easier now, and i finally have the feeling that techology has caught up enough with me… so I can at least create what I wanted to create in the first place. And this is not because I am “smarter than others”… I just worked hard to understand “technology”, opened myself to it, and made it part of my life… the same way as I am now working hard to make photography part of my life… It is not much more than understanding a concept, the same way as I think photography (the pure picture making part, that is) is also a concept of shutter speed and aperture, and a “frame”
…Imagine trying to publish a book only one generation ago…
Technology in my opinion is easy… it is only as difficult as you yourself allow it to be
There is a big difference between embracing new technology, and adandoning “tried and tested” technology…. Who says that when I am a “new technology embracer” — i embrace it because it heightens the overall quality of my life — that I automatically abandon the darkroom and negatives and traditional prints?
Why does it always seem like you can only be one or the other?
I love BOTH… BOTH are important, and to photography equally indispensable.
Of course, like D LYON, i can find exaggerated examples on both sides to ridicule and to make my point… don’t get me wrong, it IS a good point… but his point is NOT imho about choosing one or the other, it’s about using technology what it is made for, and yes, I agree, it takes a fair amount of understanding the concept to be able to make the right decision there. The same way as it takes a fair amount of understanding the concept of photography to use phorography wisely.
The only thing that I don’t like is the “dismissal” part sometimes… be it the “technology” side, or be it the “traditional” side… because i feel there is no choice to be made… there are only levels of embracing both, and “zero embracing” does not count.
Also hugs to all!! a great day starting here in Belgium, packing my bags for the next trip to Japan tomorrow…. adventure begins… LOTS and LOTS has happened to me & my Yakuza project in the last few weeks, things that might turn my life upside down completely (mostly in a good way, fingers crossed)
a
Safe travels Antonius..
Almost midnight in LA..
Goodnite y’all :)
I waited a long time for all this technology……….
Bob :)))
Thank you so much!!!
Have a nice trip…
Thodoris
of course there is the fact that if DAH were to go to his stash and pull out a Kodachrome slide from say thirty years ago, he could still make a cibachrome straight from it (okay its now ilfrochrome, but the same thing), or scan it and still get all its kodachromy goodness, or project it. in fact its probably still almost as perfect as the day it was made, and totally useable.
I wonder how the 8 track tapes he was grooving to when he made this slide are doing??
Lets not kid ourselves here, it was always a trade off of relative permanence for convenience.
John gray writes very eloquently on this in his book ‘straw dogs’. I cannot reccomend it highly enough as a must read.
..or as mr waters put it
can you tell a green field from a cold steel rail
a smile from a veil
do you think you can tell.
did they get you to trade your heroes for ghosts
hot ashes for trees
hot air for a cool breeze
cold comfort for change
did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage
Have a nice day
Of course, technology is a huge part of my life. I would not be talking on my favorite blog if not for technology. The down and dirty of it is though that it sometimes gets to be too much. That once in a while it would be nice to relax into what there is and stop discussing all the latest and greatest and trying to keep up. My life is definitely connected with technology and I appreciate it. The element that annoys me is as stated above the job security issue of all those ants working so hard to up the other one. And what is happening is more and more bad product. And along with the bad product are the bad support lines that are supposedly there to help you. Seems like just as I get comfortable with a system–CS4 now it is CS5 for example–and to do what? Add a few more doodles? Systems & programs that were touted as the best thing since sliced bread now have to be traded in and upgraded and spent time on with a new learning curve. I feel like a rat on a wheel sometimes, and not just with electronics, but kitchen appliances, cars, electric gates. The world just can’t seem to quit reinventing the wheel and selling us extended warranties and shipping our support lines to people in foreign countries with rehearsed answers. But I love communicating to a world unseen and shooting gorgeous shots of friends and faces with my fabulous 5D Mark II and the amazing Canon S90. Sigh. I’m still very happy, just sayin…
Isn’t it also (or mostly) a thing of how/what we are, a question of what fits best with our character, our inclinations? I’ve never been a ‘brain’ person, always preferred to use my hands, learn better by doing than by reading..
Lee, I don’t think you need to be up to date with the latest of the latest, but with what suits your needs best, that might be CS4 for you, CS5 for others, PS7 for someone else.. just pick what you really need.. of course, to do that you need toknow what you really need, and that’s probably the most difficult thing to recognise..
hey Lee,
I get what you are saying… Believe me it does get too much for me too….
I guess maybe I’ve just become very good at “blocking out” the overwhelming part!
ps. just so you know: there IS a big difference between CS4 and CS5… not for the learning curve if you want to learn the new bells & whistles (in contrast, the Photoshop basics have been the same since the invention of “layers” 16 years ago – and even the shortcuts have hardly changed – it is one of the most consistent applications out there), but for the simple fact that Adobe caught up with Mac OS X & Apple hardware, and it runs native 64bit now)
hugs, and have a great day!!
a
ANTON…LEE…
i spent several hours yesterday trouble shooting the 3G Microcell that will now allow me to use my iPhone from my home…sure it worked anyway…anyway, as in 100 yards at the end of the street….before this Microcell i had to ride my bike to the end of the street to get a 5 bar signal on my mobile phone..if it were not for my neighbor who had her Verizon mobile phone on her , i would not even have been able to have the conversation with the AT&T tech guy at the other end of the line who was trying to tell me how to hook up all the cables, run various tests etc etc…it was a totally crazy almost two hours of my time and i totally missed the boat i was going to take to perhaps put me in a good picture taking situation….however now i can make a phone call from my home patched into my internet system….and my darkroom is set up in the back for making silver prints…and i order those silver print supplies right off the net and they come to my front door via Fedex…so technology has allowed me to live somewhere where i would otherwise not been able to live and make traditional prints…and have these conversations with the two of you for example…i think the trick is just to make sure we do not miss the boat ride while connecting cables nor have only virtual conversations instead of chat over coffee in the kitchen of the lady next door with the Verizon mobile that worked all along…
cheers, david
THODORIS:
my pleasure :)
Panos :)))…MERCI…catch u when we return…
ALL:
the thing about technology: without it, i would NEVER have met marina/dima (most likely), nor most of y’all….roadtrip/burn/burno1/epf/real friendships would most likely have not happened, at least not to the degree…and while i do love the technology now as it makes many things simpler (and has changed how i write and how i make/think about pics/books)….BUT…
i am growing weary, profoundly so, of it…and brother anton, i’m not sure if it matters that books are easier to make now (photobooks that is), because is that the goal, the real goal?, and all all those books any more significant/helpful….not sure….it must be a balance….i worry that we’ve fallen so far in love with technologies that we have forgotten some basic things…or rather, we’re evolving into other things….and, at least for me, that wearies….and i dont actually care about where photography was vs now…it’s all the same to me….making pictures, telling stories, in whatever way and through whatever medium folk make it…..
it’s just we’ve hived ourselves, increasingly it seems….maybe that’s why i started reading proust and realize i’m gonna be stuck with this one book, all 7 volumes, for the next 3 months….like of meditation…
but, i recommend, highly, Jaron Lanier’s ‘you are not a gadget’….
important reading…
http://www.jaronlanier.com/
catch y’all in 2 weeks…
i’m not sure if it matters that books are easier to make now …………I’m sure, for me it is a great way to travel ……………….the eye
flickering
with dreams
layer upon
layer upon
layer………..
JARED…
i know your point, but oh dude, bite your tongue or easy on the send button please please….if you are lucky to live long enough and/or produce work as significant as Danny Lyon has , you will indeed be privileged to be the one man in 10 billion for whom a younger man can say “an old man whose time has come”…..many men do not get old, and fewer even have a “time”….better move on it…now….:)
THODORIS…
damned..i totally forgot the text you need…can it wait til weekend? i am going to an island with no communication for about 24 hours…send links by skype, email whatever…i know you have done it before, but please do it again…i need everything easy to find and up on top of email, skype whatever..reminders everywhere…..sorry ..will be done if there is still time….
BOB…
enjoy your vacation….of course i cannot even begin to imagine you just sitting and reading…no way…..you will be writing something somewhere somehow….value of photo books a discussion for later….technology has made it seem like there are lots of photogs and lots of books…however, no more than ever on the high bar……peace and hugs to marina, dima…
cheers, david
DAH…
No problem…
Will resend you everything…
I really appreciate it…
Cheers,
Thodoris
Leveraging technology for the advancement of our craft has always been a part of making images. We are reassured that we are doing it “right” through our discussions.
The other day I found an old bottle of ferrocyanide. My first thought was, “I used that crap.” Some changes are good.
I agree with Anton on this one. With today’s technology, we can often think/it do it. And if we’re not so technically inclined, it costs a lot less to pay somebody to do it for us.
Regarding the Danny Lyon piece, that was humor folks. Very good humor in that it had so many kernels of truth in it, but still humor.
Cold comfort for change, John? That song can cut both ways. Great lyrics, eh.
DAVID :))…HUGs right back at y’all from the 2 geniuses in the family ;))…and, well, i am still able to not write or photograph for long periods of time, but you are right, i’m still a hyper child ;)))…will have (hoping) some interesting photos to show you without faces….sky….sea….silence :))….
btw, you were mentioned on Lens yesterday :)))
MW: ;)))…indeed, indeed…he’s always been a photohero too, for me….:))
running
b
BOB B:
Thanks for posting on Design Observer feature. Enjoy NS – a beautiful place to be for sure.
ALL:
For those that are interested, The East Anglians has been featured on the Design Observer – Places Journal website. An interesting discussion is developing in the comments section.
Re. technology, see Bob McCarl’s comment about his students.
Here’s the link:
http://places.designobserver.com/entry.html?entry=14508
Off to France for a week.
Best to all,
Justin P
JUSTIN P..
took a look at Design Observer..good answers to good questions and comments…will try to post something there by tomorrow…enjoy France…
cheers, david
DAH:
Thanks. I may have internet access in France, so I hope to have a chance to post a few replies while there.
But if not on return.
Cheers,
Justin
thought you would all find this article interesting…
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/16/technology/16brain.html?_r=1&src=me&ref=homepage
Justin – just had a look at the design observer # 19 slays me :)
re Technology – I couldn’t work where I am without it, geography being the deciding factor and all!
There’s been a great deal of debate about Arizona’s illegal immigration law in particular and illegal immigrants in general these past few months, and yet I haven’t seen much comment about the Vampire State’s plans for one group of unwanted immigrants, which, I must admit, surprises me no end. I thought the idea would raise a ruckus with the same breathless alacrity that the gaggle of goniffs in the state legislature raise taxes, but no one seems to be complaining much about the idea, except for the usual suspects, and, strangely enough, no one seems to care about their opinion in the matter. I know that odder things have happened here in the Vampire State—odd is something we do well here— but this seems very peculiar to me, yes, it does.
So let me go on the record right now and say that I am all for gassing these lousy little bastards, and before you go calling me a typical, right-wing Rethuglican scumbag, permit to say that my brother, a life-long New Deal Democrat, supports gassing these wretches as well. And to the inevitable charge of racism, I say poppycock; I do not, in any way, shape, or form, advocate physically harming this country’s large population of illegal Mexican immigrants. Mexicans come to this country to find work to support their families, to help their children have better lives, and to earn their share of the American dream. Canadian geese come to this country to crap in my driveway. There is a difference, although it’s difficult to get some people to see that.
Unlike Mexican immigrants, who work hard for their money, Canadian geese lead entirely parasitic lives once they get across the 49th parallel. They contribute nothing to the economic life of the nation, they refuse to pay taxes, they are a burden on the community, they are an ongoing environmental disaster, and they spend an inordinate amount of time relieving themselves in my driveway. Supporters of this ongoing avian assault on this our Great Republic and my increasingly noisome driveway (they crap there in the bucket loads, just in case I haven’t mentioned it already) excuse such behavior by saying that, unlike Mexicans, most of whom intend to stay in the United States, Canadian geese are migratory by nature and will leave our country and my driveway sooner rather than later and that all we Americans need to do is display a little patience with them. I can sympathize with this point of view and those who hold it, though I also understand that in order to reach this conclusion geese supporters must weave intellectual loop-de-loops so intricate that they would take the breath away from anyone even reasonably irrational and leave the completely rational completely agog and looking for a drink, but my sympathy fades when I look out my window in the morning and see the objects of their intellectual desire parked in my driveway crapping away like they had nothing else to do with their time. I don’t like having to park my car in the middle of my lawn, folks, I just don’t, and then my toleration for this weak-minded rubbish flies out the window, often with some choice words following after it.
For the supporters of these geese to call these birds migratory is to take the dictionary meaning of the word, lay it upon the Procrustean rack, and stretch the word beyond its lexicographical breaking point. There are birds that migrate thousands, if not tens of thousands of miles every year, looking for food and a place to breed, preferably somewhere with much lower school taxes than I am about to get hit with. Those Canadian bastards parked out in my driveway couldn’t migrate back to Canada if their lives depended on it. There is not one of them that doesn’t look like they’ve spent their entire time in the United States chowing down on everything on the supersize menu at McDonald’s five times a day and twice more on Sunday, and then washing their Big Macs down with vanilla shakes served in fifty gallon drums. If this particular set of Canada’s ornithological pride and joy tried to migrate to the driveway across the street, 75% of them would drop dead from heart attacks before they’d managed to get to the other side, and it wouldn’t surprise me in the least to learn that the 25% that did arrive in my neighbor’s driveway were all diabetics. In short, the only way these fat, crapulous bastards are flying back to Canada is if the immigration people buys them all tickets and ships them home on American Airlines, preferably in economy class.
The foreign policy mavens will insist that I do nothing to these geese, that I should wait for the wise solons who govern my native state to decide whether or not they should use poison gas on these birds before I do something rash and permanently damage US—Canadian diplomatic relations. Again, to this I say poppycock, and if you don’t like poppycock, then there are balderdash, codswallop, twaddle, and baloney, attorneys at law, for you to select from. The fact is that the state government will never gas those geese—they will either find a way not to do it or they will try to kick the decision up the Federal level or they will try to run the geese for the state assembly on the Democratic Party line, where the geese will immediately become incumbents and thus a not terribly endangered species protected from the thousand natural shotguns that gooseflesh is heir to. So the geese are here to stay, which means I will have to do something about them, whether or not my doing something causes an international incident. Remember, I did not invite these geese to use my driveway as their personal rest room; they invited themselves, so clearly the onus is on the birds and not on me, although I suspect that more than one of those birds has tried to drop more than an onus on me these past few weeks. If the Canadian Ministry of Foreign Affairs objects to the methods I will use to forcibly remove their citizens from my driveway, let me just say that if the Canadian government would be better off trying to find ways of employing these geese in Canada rather than looking the other way when these birds decide to come across the border to crap in my driveway. If Canadian—American diplomatic relations suffer because of this, tough, that’s not my problem. In any case, that’s all I have to say about this. Really, it is—I’m not kidding.
I am speechless.
Last day of rock photography camp. Local TV station coming to do a piece on it – that kind of thing always leaves me nervous! :) Will post a link to the students work as soon as we have it up.
CP
I thought the idea would raise a ruckus with the same breathless alacrity that the gaggle of goniffs in the state legislature raise taxes, but no one seems to be complaining much…
Well, imaginary enemies are intrinsic to the right wing nutcase mindset, n’est pas? But look hard enough, there may be real enemies. Some children, no doubt Nazi left wing muslim children, were reportedly upset.
FYI, they gassed a gaggle or two in our local park. Within a few days you couldn’t tell the difference. Canadian Geese are like fruit flies. They appear by magic.
Michelle, good link. I find the intrusion of the phone into our lives very disconcerting. I was on a date yesterday and his phone rang and he answered and talked for 3 minutes. Did it hurt my feelings? No. Did it help make a choice of whether this first date guy would be of interest to me? Sort of. Our county just outlawed talking on the phone and texting of course while driving. Now people pull over abruptly to the side of the road and yak. Blue tooth–same as talking on the phone right? But the point of the article that caught my attention was the urgency we place on checking our emails, etc., now that we all have a portable email retrieval system of some sort. I have friends that leave their phone out on the dinner table while eating just in case they can’t hear it ring or alert them to an email while eating. Maybe being retired I have a different perspective as I have very little urgent business to follow up on. However, in my busy life before retirement I can’t recall how having a phone on the dinner table would have been necessary in order for business to proceed.
It is like all things: where is the balance? That is the question. Why can’t we as a species ever find a balance in our desires?
Akaky, I was at a nice little lake visiting with an old friend and couldn’t walk down to the water because it was covered with goose crap. The same big critters that land in your driveway. Hard to hose it off the beach. But then maybe they are annoyed you put your driveway in their migratory path. LOL Maybe a genetic memory from decades ago before your subdivision was there it was like lover’s lane to them. You always make me giggle.
Before I close out my comments and get busy with my day I want to ask if anyone else has noticed this trend in restaurants: TVs all around the room, some with the sound off and captioning on, and some with sound on and piped in music playing simultaneously? In my travels I began to notice more and more restaurants along the highways that decided we had come to their restaurant to watch tv. Is it to distract us from the bad food? Make us eat faster and leave? I was in a restaurant with the same friend that the geese were polluting the beach and had to ask the waiter to either turn off the music or the loud tv. He chose the tv and then the manager came over and reamed the guy out for turning off the tv. Not until I turned around and said it was my request did he leave it off. Between the conversations that had to be spoken loud enough to be heard over the electronics, the piped in music and the tv playing it was like being on a busy street in NYC. Places are rare that do not have this intrusion of tvs. I seek out those that do not use tvs in their restaurants but I have to say it is getting tighter and tighter.
Akaky, would these be the little Snowbird’s? Like in the song? “Spread your tiny wings and fly away”?
“so clearly the onus is on the birds” – should that not be anus? Classic Akaky, classic.
rats…I split an infinitive….can feel the nuns getting ready to slap me upside my head…I hate when that happens…
MW, Nazi leftwing muslim children are the worse kind. Clearly, steps must be taken to keep them from reproducing and thereby infesting our parks and polluting our precious bodily fluids…
LEE, I can understand a lover’s lane, but a crapper’s court? No, unless these birds are perverse in ways that would make any sane person shudder.
MIKE R, No, these are not tiny snowbirds, but big 20-40 pound birds, and clearly you are correct, the anus is on the birds and what passes from it is in my driveway.
DAH
Of course, you’re right. That argument just irks me to no end. It wasn’t meant to be offensive, I love his work. I love Miles Davis as well, but as a person he had his flaws. As we all do.
You seem to be an exception in your generation of photographers regarding technology. The world is not ending, just evolving. It’d be a shame if Danny Lyon missed it.
checkcheckcheck in.
jeees charles.. wanna work a techno camp.. well done mate.
sounds like fun
ALL
i’m on the last night of my commission in france.
8 days.
for the first time i accepted to do words and video as well as photos.. no problems.. feeling the pressure of jack of all trades when i want to just photograph, yet what the hey.
all works out.
no grumbles.
way forward.
bread n butter.
bread n butter.
was definitely a bread n butter commission, although some moments have cropped up and some connections may lead to more in future..
i decided to work with a straight video camera rather than slr/video and am glad i did.. carrying that has been akin to carrying a second body and since i shoot with one lens one body it wasn’t too much of a bind to have ready.
what else?
client is editing video for their needs, no need to worry about that..
word counts are easy and photos fine..
i am simplifying the complex logistics, budget and reams of note paper..
that’s par for the course, as my grand-dad might have said if i’d met him.
has been a helluva trip..
drizzle in stuttgart to mist in the mountains of la bresse, followed by furious rain around verdun..
what a heavy place, as one would expect.
bright skies over the mellow rolling valleys of champagne and vast cloudscapes over an arid bourgogne..
finally yesterday – blistering sunshine in the loire and also today where i sit in a bar in versailles 20 minuets from the eiffel tower.. too tired.. too tired..
celebrating the conclusion to a dry, driving dedicated trip, with a silken glass of beer, chips with mayo and a cigarette on the terrace in the woods.
probably shot in the 1000’s.. not looked at them yet.. editing can wait.. i hope to have photos which will make you feel what i was feeling.
all that jazz.
next stop – oslo tomorrow night then home home home to my lover and son on saturday.
yesyes
d
..although i am contractually obliged to the publisher to show no photos until the book is out in 2010.
yaknow.
like..
“the MUSIC BUSINESS is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where THIEVES and PIMPS run free, and good men die like dogs.
There’s also a negative side…”
Hunter S. Thompson
————–
Same as press and neespapers
Lee; “I was on a date yesterday and his phone rang and he answered and talked for 3 minutes”
Didn’t he know that phones have “off” buttons? :-) Geez! :-)
“Canada” geese. They’re not from Canada.
Yes they are! Checked their passports;)
Ross, that was my feeling. And it is true they are Canada Geese not Canadian. They were named after the guy who “discovered” them is what I hear. They are truly magnificent animals but man they can really digest their food!
David B you are making us want to see them!!!!
Panos…
I hope you had a good reason for asking for their passports! Just because they have a white chin strap doesn’t mean they are here illegally! ;^}
Yes they are… Akaky knows…
Too bad quantanamo is full;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VFOFwEMELDQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Diallo
Panos,
HST, Yes, Yes, Yes.
Don’t forget Tom Robbins and Carlos Cesar Salvador Arana Castaneda[
Yep, you can choose to fly with the pigs or wallow with the eagles. Words to live by. And when the going gets weird, the weird turn pro. Very important point. Cause the going’s getting weird.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUfu-lEflbQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player
DEAD MOON
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aupn-91BNwU&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Red flags today
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkFDiclX2Hs&feature=youtube_gdata_player
My favorite band (tonite)
(original by nick cave)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCZJ-Ah7JpE&feature=youtube_gdata_player
My boy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJ86DlemOWQ&feature=youtube_gdata_player
For Christina…sigh
I just saw this link and thought that even though it is about music it sorta fits other arts too.
http://www.npr.org/blogs/therecord/2010/08/19/129300878/women-musicians-use-social-media-to-craft-their-image
http://v.vevo.com/chb
Ross, agree, it sure does.. makes me wonder how many people ‘live’ over the net and neglect to live the real life.. guess it’s like with all things, moderation and selectivity will do the trick..
Panos, what’s that last link? Not available in your country…
Peter, about the M8, of course don’t know what your budget is, saw one used one at the store here in town for € 1.200..
Akaky :))
EVA…
for me thats a lot of money, but I see your point. If i found one in a second hand camera shop for about that price that was in excellent working condition I’d certainly be thinking about it. As you pointed out, I’ve got some lens already.
thanks again for pointing this out to me Eva.. serious choice I could make.
Not sure if the camera is worth the risk, heaps of teething problems the filter is a pain and the sensor/lens combination produced ordinary colour images…….. bnw is superb. I would hate to pay for any repair………….
Peter, yep, for that kind of money I’d definitely go the store route with some kind of warranty, not online buying..
Imants, never had or used that camera, so don’t know if it’s any better than another digi cam, esp. a point and shoot.. already having lenses to fit it isn’t a bad thing though.. you know of any digi cam that produces something different than ‘ordinary colour images’ anyway?
Having the lenses is more than a head start
“you know of any digi cam that produces something different than ‘ordinary colour images’ anyway?”…….. yea but I ain’t about to open THAT can of worms.
A printer of excellence http://theonlinephotographer.typepad.com/the_online_photographer/2010/08/voya-mitrovic-part-i.html
CIVI!!!
Hope you’re NOT in Greee, and if, then nowhere near Salonicco, and if, then please watch those mosquitoes.. 7th person died today..
http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20100818/world-news/mosquito-bites-kill-four-in-greece
Just back from a ten day holiday off-line, of the grid on Lasqueti Island. Heaven.
Checked in at the studio to find the main computer wouldn’t boot, got Bill my computer guy to come over and horror of horrors, C drive crashed and not properly backed up. Have lost all my programs and the finished 2010 portrait files. Thankfully, I do have dvd back-up discs of all my RAW files.
Turns out, I had neglected to update my back-up program at the beginning of 2010, so my back-up ends at 2009.
Tough lesson…Ooooom, breathing deeply
PETER, I sold two M8’s (one upgraded) that were in great working order for a lot (a lot!) less than I paid for them. I understand your hesitancy but it’s a great camera and makes fantastic images. I sold in order to move up to an M9. Try the getdpi forum buy and sell section. Lots of serious collectors there buying and selling and most of the gear is in top shape for less $ then ebay. It’s where I sell my gear.
Best of luck,
Charles
i am in a very temporary wifi zone….not back “on” on in any significant way until tomorrow…will pick up the pieces tomorrow….no phone signal , minimal wifi…hmmmm, nobody can find me…hmmmmm…
Sounds like a good thing DAH. To be where nobody can find you. Enjoy.
nobody can find me…hmmmmm…
——–
Sounds like paradise:)
No credit card companies can locate u either
Gordon, dlad you enjoyed holiday and hope that you get that drive to spin again!
Mike.
Make that glad!
So I open this month’s issue of Newsphotographer magazine and there is a Pete Marovich photo in a Zuma Press ad, and a few pages later a snap of DAH chimping at some camera he’s pointing at Brian Lanker hugging Rich Clarkson. Hope somebody made some money out of that exposure. :) Kind of funny seeing DAH in Newsphotographer Magazine!
JIM,
So happy to see you pop up. Glad you’re still interested. Yes indeed this
can be a dysfunctional place. I’ve learned to walk away when the flies start
buzzing around the turds.
“I’ve learned to walk away when the flies start buzzing around the turds.”
god i have to write that down! Oh wait, I just did.
JIM
Sad thing is DAH is not chimping (I don’t think). I believe he is using the live view on the back of the camera, which is sacrilege I am sure. Not even sure how he can see the thing without his glasses!
I am sure he will clarify.
Nice to see you back, you grumpy SOB. (grin)
I’ve learned to walk away when the flies start
buzzing around the turds………… referring to yourself as a turd shows a level of low esteem in yourself
ever get the idea that a few people here just hit the reload button over and over to see the next comment because they have nothing better to do?
Just wondering….
……….unless pomara you are referring to the people who post here of which you are one as turds.
a few people here just hit the reload button over and over ………. abit like the 37th Frame that reloads what is on burn and other sites
Welcome back Jim ;)
that reloads what is on burn and other sites
———–
No turd..( sorry I meant to say, no s$$t..;)
…in small countries that’s a common tactic.. U don’t want to pay for original content? Easy: just copy and paste… And how to avoid copyright traps? Just give some credit..all done… Now you are the boss and trust me.. Someone will buy it(if price is cheap enough)
JIM. Hi. we miss you. i miss you.
I must be crazy to be reloading and reading what all you folks have to say about each other’s “achievements” and “byproducts”. Pity.
Imants; You been out to vote today? Yopu reckon Julia will hold power. She certainly seems to be cut from the same mold as our own Aunty Helen was… :-)
Voted early as I have a day on the computer editing kids animation stuff……… I don’t really care because all our parties are called………. What is in it for us.
Other than that I guess Ginger Meggs’s cousin is not a bad choice even though she is a Welsh carrot top
“I don’t really care because all our parties are called………. What is in it for us”
Isn’t that the Oxford dictionary definition of the word “politician”?
Yea I asked my local member when was the last time she visited her electorate before the re election push. Sure it was an unfair question as it had been some time last year. She promptly went to look for a baby to hold, a perfect shield I am told, one cry and questioning is all over.
Funny; here the Greens were going to be the bearers of the “responsible torch”. Turns out they were/are no different from the rest. When Aunty Helen asked them to bend over they even supplied their own lube….
Our Greens are not too bad, though there is a few “Which way to Woodstock I lost my way” types in the ACT most show a fair amount of fair play.
Ross / Imants – Our Greens candidate in the Top End plays Country and Western , all things to all people.
http://www
of all Our Prime Ministers none of them can Match NZ’s Robert “Piggy” Muldoon for Balls and conviction.
http://glenncampbellspictures.com/blog/newwork/shooting-prime-ministers/
Glenn; In one interview Muldoon spat the dummy at the reporter and walked out; it was hilarious. How dare a reporter actually try to bully the biggest bully in the country! :-) Best of all was when he called the snap election. Seeing the look of panic on the other MP’s faces as their leader who was as pissed as a chook; wobble out to tell the waiting media that he was calling a snap election was a hoot!
You and Imants might like this…. just make sure your toungue is firmly in your cheek
As civi would say: oimeeee… Viva Australia .. What’s notta love?
But I assume that civi chilling somewhere close to the beach scratching the head still trying to figure out why there is no flash on that new iPad… But who needs flash when there’s no camera?:)
But after steve forced the 3G owners to upgrade the new 4.0.1 software on their phones and slowed them down significantly made the 4G’s seem 10 times faster.. How wicked and smart.. There goes the loyalty:(
Panos; You gotta watch those Aussies, they’re sneaky buggers…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buoztHLk9JQ
Last one; promise :-)
Laughing.. Ross this is a photography blog… If u keep posting utube links.. I’ll quit burn
And delete me as a Facebook friend?
How about block u from skype too smartface?
PANOS,
I-pad no flash, I am in Santa Monica
Apple store … I bought the adapter
To download photos $31 about 26 euros
Aha…Still I don’t see any birds in my yard
Not even AKAKY’S …Birds…hmmm…
I am one loaded civilian …
Well , I phone is weird too… …
I love you all…I am in the zone
Viva AUSSIES
I love you JIM…your key is waiting
EVA …thanks millions for the info…
left Grecolandia
And damdaradam…the virus…hmmm…
I got to send energy
Love to all
Miss you all
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hdgfdI9e_Qg&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Do it your way
I will be back
Recent comments about landscape photography POV on US public TV
showed Murray Fredericks http://www.saltdoco.com/
Just sayin’
Pomara, nice link. That is one shoot I doubt I would do. More power to him and great shots. Just sayin’…
Of course, I ran out and shot the rainbow http://picasaweb.google.com/100779520756323721614/Rainbows#slideshow/5507895995153575474
Lee
Not wanting to open any cans, much less those containing worms, yuk, but I just came accross this article:
http://blog.okcupid.com/index.php/dont-be-ugly-by-accident/
Funny read, esp. some of the comments.. and confirms what I thought and think, it’s not the camera, it’s the lens that makes the difference (leaving out composition and all this stuff, just considering the mere pixel quality).. talking digi cams here..
Eva,
No can of worms to open. It is the lens! That’s just the fact.
Digi or film makes no difference. A 70-200 2.8(as an example) doesn’t cost that
much because it’s a luxury item. A lot of expensive optical technology
goes into that hunk of glass and steel.
When ever someone talks about upgrading, the first consideration should be the
lenses. If you have the best optics you will likely upgrade you camera from
time to time but with the exception of some new bell or whistle will not have
the need to get new lenses.
Case in point, I have a wonderful 35-70 2.8 that is my “utility” lens. I purchased
it more than 10 years ago. It makes a lot of noise when you auto-focus
(early auto-focus just did that), but that was where the technology was at
the time. But it is still a sharp, functional lens.
Ahhh, I do feel better.
Ack, lenses. My only hasselblad lens has broken, i feel like my arm’s been cut off, hadn’t realised how i see everything through that lens. Photography has almost ground to a halt til I can replace it.
And to add to the discussion I think it’s film that has the ability to make people look softer, kinder and more beautiful.
“I think it’s film that has the ability to make people look softer, kinder and more beautiful.”….I shant be using any of THAT again then..:)
although, just about to go into the darkroom to try a lith of this one from the other day….softer, kinder, more beautiful..aaahhh
http://www.flickr.com/photos/john_adam-aka47/4890388094/sizes/l/
Heh, you’ve been plugged in!
And I’ll adjust my statement to film CAN make you look softer if Vicky’s taking the picture ;)
I think it’s film that has the ability to make people look softer, kinder and more beautiful
————
Nah it’s mostly your hasselblad lens ..:)
Ha ha John is WIRED again.. and the photo proves that film can also make folks harsher than they actually are..;)
Hey Panos, that aint me babe.. Thats Mr Walker and he really did look just like that…thats hasselblad lenses and film for ya.
He was having, shall we say, a bit of a bad day.
Mr.walker looks really cool btw:)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DsHASrmCuuU&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Lisa Sarfati
and after him by me, this is me by him..
http://www.flickr.com/photos/brettwalker/3238408237/sizes/l/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/brettwalker/1497622389/sizes/l/
….he makes me look so much softer and kinder :)
Lisa Sarfati is great, master of masters
not my master marcin, her stuff mainly bores me…am I allowed to say that???
those are intense photos of you john.
always, if you wish
Thank you marcin. i am not putting down her work, it is very good, it just does not speak the things I want to hear.
.
“The only genuinely photographic subjects are those which are vioated, taken by suprise, discovered or exposed despite themselves.” -baudrillard.
John,
I even don’t know what speak to me right now, everything speak to me.
Am I hear voices?
Fine!
:)
Poor worms, stuck in the can.. no air, big mess.. ;))
or put another way.
“The intensity of the image is proportional to its discreetness and maximal abstraction, that is, to its bias towards the denial of reality. creating an image consists of stripping the object of all its features one by one: weight, outline, feel, depth, time, continuity -and of course, meaning”
-Baudrillard.
eva. Get that can opener out.
Marcin. which of those voices is yours?
hey Marcin
your paintings are wonderful
perverse and playful
John, u are very good looking..:)
Not the boy toy look for sure but that experienced tough sailor look most def…
(now that’s a rare comment that my girlfriend won’t get jealous about;))))
Panos, tell me how you finding tough sailors good looking is going to be o.k. with your girlfriend?
Mike.
I guess she prefers me complimenting the sailors here rather than the pretty girls;)
Although I’m sure she might find it a little suspicious;)
John – that first picture makes me think that I never want to get in a gunfight with you. The second, that I never want to get in a fist fight with you.
No – not even a snowball fight.
Bill. OK. when we meet lets just drink beer and play pool….although round these parts that can quite easily lead to either of the above :)
Hello to all,
I’m an everpresent lurker and infrequent poster. I want to thank you all for all of your insights into the various subjects you discuss, argue and ponder, even the tangents are as relevant as the original topic for me…
I write this post soliciting some advice. I am working on a personal project about a community that is geographically small: 15 blocks long, 3 blocks wide and home to less than 4 thousand people with a very stark disparity of living conditions. Almost 15 years ago, the government instituted a series of economic incentives designed to revitalize the neighborhood, largely as a result of the neighborhood being designated a World Heritage Site by UNESCO for its colonial-era Spanish architecture. Presently, condos of restored colonial architecture sell for over a million dollars, alongside squatters whose average monthly income is 300 dollars, with almost no middle-class to speak of. Physically speaking, they are next door neighbors. Socially speaking, strangers.
I am photographing this separation of social circles – the idea that opposite ends of the spectrum exist alongside another, with minimal interaction except where unavoidable. I am avoiding the frame of gentrification as much as I can (it was a trap I fell into early on), I think it too easily judges the actors involved, and labels them winners and losers too readily.
My problem – as I get to know people more and more, I have started photographing them more intimately – in their homes, off the street, etc. Now it feels as though I am photographing two completely separate worlds with completely different daily realities, priorities, etc. that really don’t fit naturally in one edit. Off the street, there is no interaction between the two groups. It’s almost as if my photo essay looks like “walking down the street, enter the house on the right and be greeted by Ancient Burmese sculptures in the hallway, enter the house on the left and be careful which stair you step on so you don’t fall through the staircase”. Such disjointedness is what I’m trying to get at (as it reflects exactly what is going on here), but I’m a little nervous that the edit as a whole will suffer as a result.
Here is a link of a couple different shots of the street level stuff I was doing beforehand, I left out the inside shots though because I haven’t been satisfied with those results as of yet…
http://seanhallisey.com/burningquestions/content/DSC_0621_large.html
I hope this wasn’t too much rambling, I’ve seen you guys give each other such wonderful advice and would greatly appreciate it if you guys shared similar experiences…
All the best,
Sean.
No photographic advice but maybe you could spend a couple of weeks with them without a camera and see what that brings to mind.
Sounds good, John – same is true around these parts.
Sean – no advice, but you are off to a decent enough start so, just follow your gut and keep going.
Sean,
The images you chose to show are all decent images, individually, but none really
illustrate the theme you outlined to us.
There seems to be a lack of complexity to the pictures that strikes me as a necessary
component to start to get your idea across.
Somehow, you’ve got to come up with images that show an interaction between the two sides despite
the divide.
The linked images are all good support images but none are the ‘leaders’.
Mark
SEAN
I am actually working on a project that is kinda similar to what you are talking about. I am not able to discuss it tonight, but I will drop you an email tomorrow sometime and we can talk about it if you like.
(I agree with mark in regards to the images not getting my head to the same place which your text describes—-can you get high enough for a bird’s eye view to get the viewer oriented with the disparity of the living situation?)
I think the images will speak to you once you have them collected, but…
perhaps you will present the images just how you have presented the text
two essays juxtaposed,
no intersection, yet living side by side
enter one pathway and fall into the cracks
enter the other and be greeted with wealth
online the images could be presented right next to each other—two sets of images existing side by side–click on one image and be led to one extreme. click on the other and experience the opposite.
off line the images could be presented by showing the photographs from the street together and then people can walk down one hallway/wall/area and experience one living condition, walk the other way and experience the flip-side.
in a book form you could print it so reads two ways—one way for the wealth, then flip the book over and have it illustrate the other side of the street
though I completely understand the idea of visualizing
where you are heading (oh boy am I a dreamer!)
you gotta keep on walking to get there…..
go capture those stories;)
sounds interesting!
A massive thanks to everyone –
Pete – that would be great if we can talk some stuff over. sean@seanhallisey.com
Shaka – I really like the idea of two separate essays, maybe I could try using single images to tie them back together where the sides truly intersect… a sequence that graphed, looks kind of like DNA coils, diverging and coming together, peaking at the points of greatest contrast.
Mark – Thanks a lot for the points. I definitely agree that they are lacking the complexity of the story I am trying to get at, they are just one side of the story with little/no interaction with the other.
Thanks again, it really is much appreciated.
SEAN,
Massive like mass …keep it up and welcome
JOHNG,
rock on…!!!
Massive love to all…
wi-fi in my heart
BURN like wire in my I-pad
Spread the vision
Spread the word
BURN is burning in my soul
VIVA!!!
SHAKA,
You are not a dreamer…
You are a BURNIAN!!!
Hop-hop photo bomb…hiii
Blame the ice tea…hmmm…
Sean
Check out the following blog and dig back-some of the better pairs are earlier postings,IMO
http://commongroundtheblog.wordpress.com/
This is a project by Chicago Tribune (I think) photographer,Scott Strazzante, who has a project going
involving image diptychs where one image is from a documentary on a farm from the mid-1990’s and the
paired image is from a current residential sub-division that arose after the farm sold for development.
He looks for visually similar moments from each and some (not all) are very compelling.
Might be one way to integrate both communities you are working with given that the crossover
or interaction between the two might be minimal.
John,
I dont know what photograohy I like most anymore. I am not sure it will be Sarfati and Hido, or Towell and Vink or Burtynsky and Gursky or Pellegrin and Majoli, Shore and Sternfeld or Harvey and Webb, or maybe Nachtwey or maybe Tillmans? etc, etc…
I should know what I like most, but how to choose?
Shaka
Thanks!
Yesterday I took all of my paintings out to choose series for a exhibition and I had only one thought in my mind “how to not have a headache looking at them” :))))))
and second was “I love it” :))))
peace for all painters with cameras in hands
Sean,
I like your series.
Sean, don’t know if you can do something with my two cents: go inside, become invisible..
Marcin, why would you have to decide and choose and exclude the others? Photographers you list above I mean, not your paintings.. I remember a while back you were going to make a burning pile of them, glad you did not…
John, could get those works out by saying one is better than the other, but that’s really not the point, and not true, very individual choice, differnt needs also.. but I do think that film is not film is not film, I mean it’s not like with digital where you can decide AFTER which brand it should be, but you decide BEFORE how some aspects of the photograph will be like, with no or litle chance to change that.. Made that lith print? Curious.. While agreeing with Panos, am not really crazy about the look of the portraits, but that’s personal taste..
Eva,
fireplace returns cyclically, so I still have time to make a smoke from my paintings and my archive.
But, I hope I will not do this…
:)
Eva. print came out very well(3rd attempt) Very gritty, and cooled down in gold. too large to scan and show(16×20). Was shot on fp4 on the blad and stand devved in very dilute rodinal for 90 minutes to give it some texture to start with.
I think there is still a lot of scope with film to make it look how we want it to look. At the neg stage, and how we print it and dev it…and of course the toning of….or of course scan the neg and potato shop the shit out of it..All valid.
John, so you mean you tease with a lith print and don’t show it?? ARGH! And yep, of course you can post process a neg in a billion ways and all valid, that’s not what I’m talking about, that’s what you can do with a digi file also, was more thinking about same cam, same lens, same situation, different film (example PanF and Delta 3200), developed the same way (same developper, but of course individual time and agitation for each brand) will give you a complete different starting point..
Eva. Re: film look. These are FP4.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/29165128@N03/sets/72157624778991656/show/
The shadow shot is ‘classic’ ID11 straight print. Second is Stand rodinal straight print..third is a scanned section of a lith print gold toned. Note that the shadow shot is much ‘cleaner’ even though it was shot on 35mm as opposed to the other two which were MF. Shows there is a lot of scope for ‘interpretation’ even with a single film stock.
I guess its all about intent. We know how a film behaves under certain conditions/speeds/dev times/chemicals..etc so we can pre-visualize the look we want when we go into a situation. Maybe this gig is tmax3200 pulled a stop and then pushed a stop in dev. maybe this gig is hp5 in neat d76..maybe the next gig we try something totally new and either cock it up gloriously, or find ‘another’ look that can work.
John, yup, indeed! Film is not film is not film.. while chip is chip is chip (meaning same camera, multiple shots)..
eva. Indeed. All the more reason to experiment. One of the reasons why I love bretts work so much. He pushes the shit out of digital to get ‘his’ look, and doesnt care one bit what anyone thinks about it.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/brettwalker/sets/72157604197152437/show/
ALL digital point and shoot cameras..well worth an extended browse
Hmm.. while I do like some of these, nr. 5, 8, 14.. I can’t get into that plastic kind of look most have.. but as said, it’s question of personal taste there..
Sean, the subject matter shows great promise, I hope you keep at it. Give prints to everyone that you photograph, it shows that you give, not just take. As for posting your email address here, I hope you enjoy the viagra (laughing), lots of viagra emails will come your way!
Best,
Mike.
Just wondering if this can be seen on a ipad http://www.artouko.com/ …. I guess that means it can be seen on a iphone. I own neither thanks
Kinda freaky.. cool.. but no idea ’bout the i-things, have none..
IMANTS,
my atrouko…I see nothing…i-phone G4 and i-pad…needs flash…maybe I need to do something…
PANOS,HAIK…I-BURNing people wake up…I see nothing…
I know…I should have never left my …chickens…hmmm…one left (BOUBOULINA)…!!!
EVA…VIVA ITALY…are you in Italy or France???
LOVE
KATIEEEEEEEE…where are you,I need update with your back and your landscapes,MYGRACIE and nightshifters…LOVE…OURPATRICIA,JENNY…I miss so many of you…
LOVE TO ALL…and thank you
BURN is a family of STORYTELLERS
WHAT NOT TO LOVE!!!
I had a dream…JOHNG’S portrait…with LEE’S rainbow…mixed up in a weird way…oime…
hmmm…it might be the Pacific wind…
…keep rolling…can you feel your fingers bursting with energy…???:)))
I will be back…oime
Civi, you better stay away another bit, there’s been an earthquake in Greece tonight/day..
Here’s a bit of France for you.. http://www.slowemotion.it/pics/france.jpg , no flash.. do you ever check mail? ;)
ouoooo,I LOVE this one…EVA
…nope…no e-mails checked…I am a “rusty”civilian…lots of gadgets…
BUT they are all in the wrong hands…my hands…hmmm…
checking the news,now…if free wi-fi permits…
earthquake …very close to home…
BOUBOULINA and family…all good…BUT they are all alarmed…camping out…hmmm…
hmmm…
life is weird…before I left for my journey…my Grecopeople were very concerned …:
“be careful of the “moving” lands…” hmmm…life is full of surprises
Civi, glad to hear the critter (and of course your Grecopeople) are fine!
Gordon.. you seem to be a timetraveller?
CIVI, I’m sorry, but I thought you’d eaten all of Bouboulina’s family already. Did you miss some along the way?
@ DAH or ANTON
Since this community has grown at nearly the speed of light… I wonder if it is possible to have some stats in this days?
i.e. : How many visitors per day;
How many submission per week;
How many donators;
How many fans (besides FaceBook…). Etc, etc.
Sometimes, I can;t believe that two years ago, this was a small blog in the DAH’s web page called “Road trips”
Thanks P.
AKAKY, my dearest ,one of a kind …STORYTELLER…
I had all the family(EVA was helping me with the count down:)))
…roasted garlic and wine…oime BUT not the BOUBOULINA
No,NO,NOOOO…I haven’t touched her …I promised to KATIEE …
damnit AKAKY…good times…
OOO
PATICIOM… visitors…MASS AUDIENCE :))) we need some help with the donations…
BUT the LOVE and RESPECT…masssss…thanks to ALL of you OUT there in the Universe…
BURN is a family of STORYTELLERS …spread the world…
Civilian -MASS AUDIENCE…
and as GORDON says…
“I LOVE my life” oime…it’s the Venice beach…I am in the zone
COME ON BURNIANSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS…
FOR BILL AKA Frostfrog.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/29165128@N03/4917437560/sizes/l/
FOR BILL AKA Frostfrog.
http://www.abelequaregna.com/temp/cat.htm
abele. Like that one.
my cat does not even come close to those others, for Bill aka Frostfrog, I’ll show it anyway:
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1288/4710058798_e915b50c28_b.jpg
Imants.. Unfortunately no…( flash required )..:(
What about this version if not it is back to the start http://www.artouko.com/xxx
Just sneaking in and what do I find?! We are exchanging cat pictures now?? :o)
I just have a dog, and on top of it all one who things he is a cool rock star … Pictures would be too embarassing.
Thomas
wishing you a good drive tomorrow. Too bad I am working. Will give you a call when I am done – not sure how long you will stay but maybe we manage to meet up. A friend is opening a bar, will check if someone is there tomorrow. Is right next to the hotel you stood at the last time :o)
DAH,
When I saw today’s Doonesbury cartoon, I thought of you down on the Outer Banks in the storm light, mentoring young photographers to find themselves:
http://www.uclick.com/client/nyt/db/
Now we know what you’re doing when not reading Burn Sid.
Imants.. Negative again..:(
Here it is – My first published images for the NY Times. They should be in Monday’s edition. http://nyti.ms/aTRwBo
Brian…:)
Congratulations
LASSAL,
we’re staying just the day. Lars already figured some shops he wants to visit…
but there will be some time, and I’m happy to see you again :)
BRIAN,
Congratulations. I just feel like those parents, my son is a freshman, too.
Looking at the fathers in those pictures, I know how they feel :)
Panos – Thanks for always cheering me on
Thomas – Glad the images were able to strike home.
BRIAN,BRavo
It feels like we (BURN family) have sent our son (YOU) to college
and we are waiting to “hear” from you…
Nailed it …
Shall I say…first round on you!!!
Another German BURNING meeting…
Amazing!!! You need REIMAR and DOMINICK
just for the VIVA…LASSAL hugs to your dog
FOR BILL aka FROSTFROG…
Sorry I have no photo…BUT only love for
ROYCE
Brian; Good on ya! :-)
Perhaps for those who selfpublish books:
http://theindependentphotobook.blogspot.com/
Brian, glad to see you found what you needed and they needed what you found :)
Abele, yes, nice one.. and John, forgot to say yesterday, the lith seems appropriate for that pic..
BRIAN
congrats! Glad I can check the online version here.
PANOS
lately very many of your (and other’s) YouTube links do not work here in Germany. Copyright stuff.
CIVI
yeah … we are keeping the BURNmeetings coming. But then, it is much easier in Gemany than in the US. Short distances and few speed limits :)
THOMAS
I’ll try
Congratulations Brian, the online layout looks good!
Mike.
DAVID ALAN HERVE:
HERVE…where are you?? a long family tree search has revealed that we are long lost cousins…no joke…
cheers, david alan herve
————————————-
David!
Errrr….. A big Errrrrr! My name is BLANDIN, not Hervé, which is only a given name (St Hervé was a Saint from Brittany, livng as an ermit in forests I believe, who fed and pacified wolves).
I would have loved to be blood-related with you, and in many ways, you too do feed and pacify quite a few rough diamonds and wild wolves here on BURN, but please, do feel no chagrin, even unrelated to me, you still have mucho talent. :-))))
PS: It took me a while to locate that post, after Jenny let me know about it.
HERVE…
alas, you are not my cousin!! yes, i know i still must send you a bag…i am so so into now shooting my home turf and life that i just have almost no time to do anything but photograph…”in the zone” so to speak…as soon as summer is over next week, i will get around to doing all the things i have neglected…you being one of them..welcome back..
by the way, anyone who tells us publicly or privately they will no longer be commenting on Burn will have their name removed from the registered list ….this is simply to reduce the chance of a fraudulent entry….we have had some…however, anyone who decides to return as a commentator may simply re-enter their name and wait a short time to have their name back on the list…very easy
SIDNEY…
smiling..Doonesbury always good for a reality check…thanks
cheers, david
PATRICIO…
we have at various times published all of this information….much against the advice of almost everyone in publishing…anyway, we must figure out an appropriate way to do it….putting it here in comments will do no good in any case…info here gets buried…we will come up with a way
Hi all,
I will be at Visa pour l’Image, anybody will come ?
Lassal, I think Vevo is a better way to see HD videos on the net..
But harder to share links.. and the adds there are too much… One thing for sure, the music industry is more insecure and more paranoid than ever..
“the MUSIC BUSINESS is a cruel and shallow money trench, a long plastic hallway where THIEVES and PIMPS run free, and good men die like dogs.
There’s also a negative side…”
Hunter S. Thompson
(had to repost this)
Be water my friend
“If I should die tomorrow, I will have no regrets. I did what I wanted to do. You can’t expect more from life.”
Bruce Lee
Do you know what happens if you fix your film (after the stopbath) with the already used developer you left on the table, forgetting that you’d put the fixer in the fridge to cool down a tad, ’cause the weather gods have decided that Summer isn’t over just yet?
Nothing.
You even can open the tank and start to rinse.. but then better listen to those two braincells bouncing back and forth in the empty room between your ears telling you that there’s something wrong.. that you forgot something.. something important..like the fixer in the fridge..
Negs are safe. Just a tad dense. Phew.
Back to your regular program.. ;)
bet you wont do that again….for a while.
Usually when it rains it pours..
But then again.. Not always
Some folks for example do one crime and get the maximum penalty..
Some others are repeated offenders and never get caught… I wonder if that “karma” thing really applies to all..
John, no.. not until the next time! ‘Twas some scary 5 minutes..
Panos.. guess I was flying under the (karma)radar this time ;)
In a pet hospital now… It seems the Saint Bernard won’t make it any longer..8 years old
If the dog has to go…let him/her be the water
Hmmm… We are with you and the whole family
Sending good energy …hug the dark kids and mama
Oime …”life is a fight…”a philosopher once told me
Love to ALL
Panos, don’t forget this one…
“Journalism is not a profession or a trade. It is a cheap catch-all for fuckoffs and misfits – a false doorway to the backside of life, a filthy piss-ridden little hole nailed off by the building inspector, but just deep enough for a wino to curl up from the sidewalk and masturbate like a chimp in a zoo-cage.” — HST
Herve! Missed you!
http://gallery.me.com/iphone/innerspacecowpanos/100396#0
Death part1
Death part 2 (mourning)
http://gallery.me.com/innerspacecowpanos/100396/Death%20%28part2%29
Death (part1)- lethal Injection
http://gallery.me.com/iphone/innerspacecowpanos/100396#3
Death (part2)- the Mourning
http://gallery.me.com/iphone/innerspacecowpanos/100396#2
Death (part3)- the Soul
http://gallery.me.com/iphone/innerspacecowpanos/100396#0
Michael K
Thanks for the reminder.
Don’t
End
All
The
Hope
DEATH…love…!!!
Life goes on
We got to move on
Hi all,
I will be at Visa pour l’Image, anybody will come ?
—————————————————————-
No, my apologies, ma’am, but I will not be there. I have checked into this thing and I find that first, I have no money, which tends to put vacations into perspective, if not actually on ice on a more or less permanent basis, and second, this confab is held in France, which is not accessible by car from my house, unless I go the long way around and arrive at the Bering Sea in the middle of winter. As this route seems to be about as hard on my old clunker as driving it directly to France, I will have to skip the festivities. While you are there, enjoy yourself mightily.
I don’t know if anyone has seen this but….
http://series.fluck.de/series17/index.html
It is kind of creepy… very cool, but creepy.
Pete; To me that series of images is a case of the technique taking centre stage over the images.
Oh I agree. It is all HDR. Multiple exposures of the same image and melded together.
Akaky, I feel you. As the driver of a 1992 Volvo 240 clunker with an undesirable exhaust note, I have taken to delivering my 12 year-old to school with my wife’s 2001 Mitsubishi, as it is less embarrassing…
Pete M.: thanks for sharing those. My human sensibilities say “NO” to HDR, but my reptilian brain says “Yum!” to those candy-colored images…
Actually, Pete, I’d bet the linked series is nor HDR.There are too many images with
people and motion blur from traffic,etc that wouldn’t work well in a typical HDR workflow.
I think the guy used (very well, if you like this sort of effect) one of the Photoshop plugin filters
from Topaz
http://www.topazlabs.com/adjust/
http://www.pbase.com/philinnz/image/107018113
Actually, they are.
http://twitter.com/fluck/status/15497621030
I had seen a write up about his HDR work shot in New York and Princeton, but can’t seem to find it now.
Panos, not sure what happened, links take to ‘the lake’ album..
panos :ø)
the music industry snaps us around like the loose ends of a whip, flicking us from one space to another with a sonic-boom CRACK fraying our withering edges.. each snap flinging another morsel of ourselves chaotically into the wind.
i like the hunter quote.. i think it was originally about the tv industry and has been appropriated for music.. or was it the other way round?
in any case.. it´s a grand thing to remember the lost souls and refugees from that thrashing floor every once in a while.. those who´s chemical rush took them too high.. those who are unable to come down again.. as well as those the industry spat out and disregarded on it´s ever trundling path.
one day i will make a book about it :ø)
hohoho.
d
and as eva mentioned man – the links all end up at the same place – the lake.. ?!
the ups and downs of shooting, to the ups and downs of editing.
loveitloveitloveit
¨i spent a week in france…. and all i got was this lousy chicken.¨
http://www.bophoto.co.uk/wpblog/?p=310
AUDREY…
trying to decide and also looking at the ticket situation….i would of course love to be at Visa Pour L’Image for the debut of Burn 01, but i am right in the middle of a very good shooting mood and hate to break it….in any case, it is most important that you are there with the new book…you should be very proud….i will let you know one way or the other soonest if i can make it…
cheers, david
Civi’s Boubulina in France?? All I got was cows..
http://www.slowemotion.it/pics/frenchcows.jpg
Looking forward to your edit.. which we won’t see for a while I guess, book has to come out first?
eva – if that´s for this david – yes..
book in 2011 and publisher has contractual rights, as with all commissions i do.. at least for a while they do.
posting the chicken only because i think they are unlikely to use it, although in truth i needed to even ask them to use that ..
if only i could show you my french cow photos..
will an indian one surfice?
http://www.bophoto.co.uk/shop/prints/large%20pages/cow%20n%20beach.htm
AUDREY – what book..? i have missed something..
d
maybe someone already posted this:
http://www.bjp-online.com/british-journal-of-photography/report/1729221/independent-thinking
something for us to think about
¨Photographers are obsessive people. They spend their time trying to find answers to the questions that obsess them.¨
indeed.. i think it´s in the nature of decent photographers to work out ways to move forward..
havn´t the time right now to write more at the moment, although it is something i have been thinking on for a long while, and then conclusions have begun since lookbetween with my taking the first of i hope many video / photography commissions in france.
for me it always was a case of taking the work i could ¨face¨ doing in order to do the work i ¨love¨ doing.. and so there is not really too much change there, apart from needing more money to put tor capa through nursery and endless nappies.
pretty confident with video editing software now.. slow panning.. blahblah..
plans are pretty clear at the moment and growing more solid and i think for all independent photographers without agency benefits the story will be the same – leave the past, screw yourself into the future and get yer head down and graft.
looking at what the agencies are doing is a good idea, along with broadening our perception of image delivery, presentation and of our client base.
it´s always about priorities and at the head of that table is the client and publications.. what do they want to buy?
can i expand and show them something new that they do not yet know they want to buy?
obsessive about questioning – sure.
although its the obsession for the act of photographing, editing and presenting our specialist interest which will keep us in work.. just as perhaps it has always been.
DAVID B…
when you say your publisher has “contractual rights”, what does that mean exactly? you also say referring to a picture “THEY are unlikely to use it”…i assume with that last quote that this is not your book but a commissioned book where the publisher is making the edit etc..book subject?? you have probably told everyone here all of this already , and i just missed it….
my reference to Audrey about a book was referring to Burn 01 which is indeed a book and of which i hope she is proud to be a part….
cheers, david
¨it´s always about priorities and at the head of that table is the client and publications.. what do they want to buy?
can i expand and show them something new that they do not yet know they want to buy?¨
i mean in terms of putting food on the table..
our personal project have their own priorities, needs and mechanisms, aside from any potential clients who may buy into what we are into.
DAH
i am writing and photographing a guide book section dealing with the n.e. of france.. the 2011 edition.
bread n butter job.. with the benefits of an advance, freedom to travel and photograph my own purposes as i fulfill theirs.. tasty little job, even if commercial.
the contract deals with all material i have shot until the publisher has been presented the work and made their selections..
there are a whole bunch of photos i know they will not be interested in, yet i am playing the respectful game of sticking to the contract word for word until it´s finished.. published.. as i want to do 2 or 3 territories for the book next year :ø)
i guess this was a test commission.
it´s not concerned with my music work – which i have decided is not yet ready.. another year in eastern europe and russia is on the cards before i put it to bed properly..
i thought i was ready to bang out ¨wasted¨, yet pause for thought and contact with potential writers to contribute has bought up a fresh desire to photograph the ¨wild west¨, or east as it is, of the electronic music scene.. the newest territories now discovering the music.
i´m also working more with the balkan and n. ireland work.. nearly there, not quite.
© remains david bowen photography.
moral rights exerted and all that jazz,
off to nursery i go..
hopefully talk more soon david.
d
DAVID B…
got it..cool…sounds like a nice job as you say…was just worried that maybe you had sold out on the music work which woulda killed me….and you!! sigh of relief….good on you and your family…
cheers, david
David B – Don’t see much to bitch about on that one mate!
DAH,
Of course, I am very proud and really happy… Many thanks again… and if I can help, don’t hesitate please…
cheers, audrey
AUDREY…
i cannot think of a better salesperson for our book than you at Perpignan…you will see Diego Orlando and some others as well..Diego is responsible for the fine Italian printing and binding you will see…and please have dinner together on the Burn expense account!!…only two bottles of wine please…
THODORIS…
i just wrote a short text for your book….if this does not suit your needs or your taste, i will change accordingly… let me know…
cheers, david
DAH,
Great piece in BJP. That has been my approach with institutional work, but I
have not been successful verbalizing that partnering concept to some clients.
When it works, it REALLY works and the benefits go both ways. The operative
word-Trust.
oh i get it.. audrey carrying burn 1.. good stuff.. the french office is up and running :ø9
DAH.. the music work.. god no.. always have a greater degree of control there even with magazines..
keep on getting picture requests for the balkan work driving me back in that direction, and have a meeting for possible representation during september in london.. i am unsure though.. without saying much here i´m in two minds when i sell stock perfectly well myself.
still high-hopes from those high-times :ø)
glenn – yesyes mate.. you know all about good commissions :ø)
i neglected to ask the publisher about aus – forgot.. will do this week.
David Bowen, was out last week, carrying drinks from the bar, and thought of your photograph – you know the one: trying not to spill the beer! Checked out your “Wasted” microsite and was impressed.
Pomara beat me to it with a reference to the British Journal of Photography (BJP). The magazine has really stepped up to the plate with its new, monthly, offerings. In this month’s issue both Magnum and V11 talk about a new business model and how their websites (a new Magnum website to be launched soon) will cater for the many photographers who follow the agencies. BJP – recommended.
Mike.
Civi
Still loving my life. My summer holiday snaps. http://www.pbase.com/glafleur/lasqueti_summer_2010&page=all
David Bowen, was out last week, carrying drinks from the bar, and thought of your photograph – you know the one: trying not to spill the beer! Checked out your “Wasted” microsite and was impressed.
Liked that series, as well. Reminded me of a series by Clay Enos
http://www.clayenos.com Check out his ‘Night’ portfolio
Mark
MIKE R…
hey wait , i want credit where credit is due!! smiling…i put Pomara and everyone here onto the BJP piece….right Paul? always been a big fan of British Journal of Photography…..
Actually DAH, you’re been ‘teasing’ about Magnum Channels for well over a year.
A lot of interesting, non-pessimistic thinking going on at Magnum and Vll.
Being businesses,it will be interesting to see how new directions are monetized.
I’ve long thought that resources such as pieces produced by Magnum in Motion should have been
available as paid medium hi-res downloads much the same way mucis/video is available at iTunes.
Now that tech devices such as the ipad are on the scene I think the time to act is now
Mark
Many thanks David!!!
Check your email…
cheers
I know .. I will have (I’m having) all sorts of Internet/laptop/car/housing blah blah problems for a while.. So stay tuned.. I ain’t going anywhere but I will have a little problem posting photos/links/…
Keep the fire up .. Be back in a minute..
Good morning from sunshiny California ..:)
K. Panos
I’ll temporarily patrol Youtube for you
mike r
yes – love that photo.. we´ve all been there :ø)
mtomalty
thanks for the link and for looking at my site.
ultimately the edit which is on my site is vastly different from where it will be in a month or two, when i have more wide selection and a proper site.. work to be done there..
strange how quickly the perception of an edit changes once people are looking.. i´ve outgrown what is there for now.. and love what i am growing into.
:ø)
DAH, so you’re a fellow fan of the BJP! I had to smile when, in March of this year, it reverted to being a monthly magazine – after 146 years of being a weekly!
In the March issue Steve Mayes of V11, in an article entitled “Small is good” says to photographers attempting to make a living from the old business model of magazines assigning photographers etc. “I have a simple message: give up, it”s over. And good riddance!”. He continues to say that the small business is better able to respond to the new market opportunities without having to sustain staff, property etc.
It’s currently the only magazine that I buy. Not cheap at £6.99 but with first-rate printing and thoughtful and thought provoking content, worth every penny. Everyone should check out the website and purchase back issues!
David Bowen, good to see you maturing (photographically) here.
Mike.
@ AUDREY
Oui, je serais a Perpignan comme l’année dernière.
We’ve met with you, Laura, Lance, and someone else (don’t remember) just half an hour before the projection at Cafe de la Poste and took that picture with DAH masks!
will love to meet some burnians folks again. ;-).
Keep in touch.
A+ Patricio
DAH,
BUSTED. So you really do read the threads. :)
http://gallery.me.com/iphone/innerspacecowpanos/100396#0
Have u ever felt like that?
David B
Hey, nice chicken picture
For Panos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keo79KAybcI
I haven’t been to Cali for a while, but my daughter is on a Runaways kick and it’s a great cruisin’ song :-)
mike..
thanks.
there has been a certain amount of growing and learning through burn..
photos i have disregarded as failures are back on the table in consideration – it has been a place to expand my taste.. broaden my pallet..
still though – the most important place is within myself and within my own practice..
in a sense the photo blogs are something of a distraction – all i have ever done has been through my own exploration and for my own reasons.. limited dialogue, maximum looking.
i´d like to be dropping in on burn as long as it is up, although all i do is follow my eye-hearts desire.. and the more i photograph, the less i interweb :ø)
David B, “photos i have disregarded as failures are back on the table in consideration”, isn’t it amazing when you find that happening? Perhaps we see what we originally saw when we took the photograph: it’s certainly a reason for keeping photos for a while before deleting / discarding. I tend to be quite ruthless about what makes the cut, probably thinking about file management. Perhaps I should save everything to an “everything” hard drive and then save the picks to a “picks” hard drive? Anton?
Mike.
mike..
coming from shooting film until only last year i have the ¨everything¨ negs .. just no time to scan them all.
now shooting digital i stop myself from deleting in camera.. actually rarely look at the screen on the back at all.. and i never delete files.
it´s the same with music – something i did not like 10 years ago is right where i am today, with different ears
the main reference is to work which is more raw edged.. such a jukka who burn has featured..
my obsession with photographing and editing was more placed on the moment and less on the raw edge and ´feel´.. when that bias shifted, photos which i would have regarded as near misses creep back into the edit.. i want people to need a shower after going through my book
as time moves on, what i previously saw as common place now appears as extraordinary– which widens the scope somewhat..
still keeping the bar high though.. and still heavily obsessed with the moment, as unfashionable as that seems..
Anyone up for a pick? Keeping on shooting Fedora, here’s one more ‘day in the life of’:
http://www.slowemotion.it/pics/adayinlife.jpg
MIKE R…
Anton is shooting in Japan and not online for a few more days , so i will jump in on this question intended for him…he will have his own answer, but maybe i can temporarily help you to think about this ….i am sure Anton would agree that you should have two separate archives (either literally or electronically)…i think he said so and it is certainly the way i have worked always…a “super selects” or “gold” archive for say the 500 very best works…then a “seconds” archive for the ones that we last to go for any edit…these often come back later as “firsts” depending on your editing use for books, exhibitions etc….what happens to all the rest is up for grabs..i have been tempted at various times to simply dump all the process pictures…the ones which were part of the buildup to either a single or a story….however, many process pictures are invaluable for teaching purposes and so for that and many other reasons, i have ended up as most photographers and not throwing anything out….the primary thing i think and what i am literally working on now is to make sure i have hard copy (prints) of all the selects….with even work prints being archival inks or darkroom silver and signed….these selects, if they are digi files, are stored on compact flash cards along with other normal hard drives….i personally trust the CF cards and prints more than anything ….
cheers, david
BRIAN FRANK.
congrats on the NYT parents separating from their kids story….pretty interesting story and i think you did a fine job working with what you had and in short order…not easy to capture the separation moment….nice work…i have yet to see the story in print
cheers, david
EVA…
you seem to be concentrating on everything that Fedora “does”…she does this and then she does that….maybe you should think a bit more about who Fedora “is”…her personality..interactions with others etc…just thinking
David AH:
understand what you mean, working on it.. but.. there is a but: she pretty much is what she does.. not trying to find an excuse as I agree with what you write, I do have a few options, still related to the ‘do’ thing in some ways though.. as said, working on it, with ideas bouncing.. thanks :)
EVA…
i think i pretty much missed out on your explanation overall to this audience on exactly why you had chosen Fedora as a subject for an essay…obviously she is a friend of yours , or becoming one, but i did not and do not know the full motive you may have nor your final wish for an outcome on this one…
David AH:
you didn’t miss anything, as there’s never been an explanation. I posted a link in response to a question made by Lee about one of the pictures, and since we were more broadly talking about the edit of her Mennonite work I thought I better show more than just a pic, seemed more appropriate to do.
I already then wrote that the whole thing needed an edit and to be worked over, was well aware of that, and even more so since then as reactions came from you and the audience here. It started out quite simple, really as in ‘a day in the life of’, but will hopefully grow to something more, already has I think, but it’s buried under too much a, b, c as it is. What I need now is to stick to my way of seeing and being, without closing myself to well-founded criticism and at the same time not just doing what is expected ’cause it’s what X, Y and Z have done, which would be the easiest thing.. besides throwing the whole thing into the bin, of course ;)
DAH,
I’m very honoured and happy if I can help…. Don’t worry, 2 glasses of wine and I’m almost drunk :(
Patricio,
je me rappelle très bien ! here is my email audrey.bardou@free.fr and my cell +33 661 122 132 , see you soon !
cheers, audrey
DAH (David) yes, archiving is a bit of a conundrum – especially digital! With film you could just chuck all of your “not picks” into a box and perhaps re-visit on a rainy afternoon sometime in the future.
With digital you need to save them in two places – and then to a third, off-site place. Then you need software to see them. Do you store everything in Aperture / Lightroom et al. or just your “keepers”? If you save everything your library is going to grow very large and performance issues may become a problem. I don’t shoot enormous numbers of photographs so it’s not too much of a problem for me but for a pro photographer it must be a nightmare!
Mike.
I was going through all twe RAW files of a project I’m currently shooting. Even though I thought I’d already picked out the best; I found another 3 images that had slipped under the radar. So I do think editing your RAw files too close to a shoot can be problematical. When you got your slides back a week or so after shooting I think it gave you a sort of “cooling off” period. It enabled you to look at them more dipassionately, and with a more critical eye.
For this project I’ve backed up every (except out of focus etc…) RAW image onto DVD and external hard drive; and the same with my selected RAWS. Storing a seperate set of DVD’s at the folks place, and will burn another set and leave at a friend’s place.
Cheers :-)
Ross:).. Having friends pays off.. A did this with a friend and later I couldn’t return the favor coz he wanted to leave his python pet with me while going two weeks vacation..
Good part was that all rats and mice moved out within 24 hours
DAH. Would be nice to pick your brains on skype some time if poss. Flying out to Rio to make a documentary in about 3 weeks. Two weeks shooting location footage of The Homeless world cup. Im attached to the England squad, but Im looking to get out onto the streets and free form a bit. Got any time free in the next week??? You know the layout there right?
Its going to be a blast whatever happens.
A link to the gig.
http://www3.homelessworldcup.org/
John G., so you saw the piece on last year’s Homeless World Cup in the June Harper’s? Sounds like a big slab of media bait. Is your documentary taking it seriously?
DEAR ALL,
writing this en route from covert Yakuza training camp in Japan, so i need to be brief… some big things are happening NOW in regards to my project… good things. Got a phone call yesterday, of which the contents for now have to remain confidential, but it is big enough to leave you with the following news:
on september 8 i will pull my first issue of 893 Magazine from lulu (it will resurrect soon enough, no worries, but in a different way and not anymore on lulu), but the important message is that all of you who bought (and still will buy before sept 8), will have de facto a cool, never to be seen again, limited edition of issue #1, in a totally unique shape and form…
so hang on to that copy… you never know what the future might bring…
sorry for my brevity, i am literally in the car with master swordsman Tanaka Sensei, who is wondering what the hell i am typing on that little friendly device… gotta go..
please spread the word to all your friends.. tweet it, fb it… it is as of now a collector’s item…
http://www.lulu.com/product/paperback/893-magazine-%231/10894184
hugs to all… i will explain more soonest…
a
I feel blessed. However, mine isn’t signed. Good we can declare our work collector’s item. Laughing with you not at you Anton. Sweet. And be careful friend.
http://www.asahi.com/english/TKY201008220143.html
(forwarding from J.Vink’s FB page)
Panos
A moment of silence for the passing of film.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PsnxDQvQpw&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Some real rap here ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmG4X9PGOXs&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Really hardcore (explicit)
Gordon … As u know I copied and pasted from JV Fb site..
I’m not being sarcastic and I don’t wish “death” to anyone or anything … Although my philosophy “mentor”, F.Nietsczhe once said that death is actually a completion… A successful completion of a perfect circle..
I’m old.. I was born at film era.. I only knew films, developers and darkrooms for ally life.. Only recently I discovered digital and as u know I can barely use PS.. But I realized that the most important is to have seething to say and if I have anything to say is to express myself and say it.. Put it in a photograph..
So yes.. I’m not afraid of technology..
Alchemidts used to be technology back in the day.. Film used to be technology..(alchemists I meant)
Everything that’s new is a threat…
Jazz used to be a threat.. Then Elvis, then Eminem..
Even Mozart was a threat and definitely Nietsczhe ..
Even Jesus was a threat…
Now digital is a threat to purists..
Purist is cool, being “elitist” is not..
Elitist means : hiding behind my fear, I’m not leaving my comfortable zone..
Leics proved that they are down to earth.Leica
I meant to say..
Yes they abandoned film..
That means a lot..
Sorry for typos
And I will admit that the “masters of film” maybe 3 or 4 geniuses left around the world should totally be supported and be allowed around.. But most of the mediocre “elitists” out there should finally learn what the world “accept” means.. Not “compromise”.. But simply “accept”..
I love dinosaurs too but someday I need to “accept” they are gone..
And simply mourn and cry but eventually “accept” it..
Same with environment.. Yes I love canaria, mustangs and old chevys.. But.. But.. It’s a hybrid era.. We run out of oil with this attitude.. Time for clean energy and hybrids.. Get it?
Time for pixels.. Enough with the chemicals.. Sorry..
And I’m lat folk in this universe that I would call myself an environmentalist or vegetarian..
Welcome to 21st century or keep reading your bible and prosecute abortionists as devil worshippers.. Good luck
I’m not that guy act like an environmentalist or vegeterian I mean..
New era.. Slideshows.. Movies.. Blah blah.. Clean energy..
It’s all about what’s IN your picture.. Not how u made it.. I could care less if u spent 3 nights in your expensive dark room.. Your pictures still suck.. Get it? Can’t hide behind your elitism any more.. People have eyes.. Sorry..
LEE
good idea! actually what do you think of this: After sept 8 I’ll know exactly how many copies were sold… After that date, if anyone sends me their copy, I will personally number and sign it, and send it back…
I have no idea if this is “not done”, but i guess the numbering can come after the selling, not? I obviously have no experience in the matter. any advice anyone?
a
Panos, I posted that link about Leica on the Leica User Forum yesterday but my post was closed immediately. I was told that there is a long discussion about the subject in another post. When I asked if the story was true I was told “sort of”. I believe that the “a la carte” option is strong in Japan, especially due to the favourable exchange rate. So if you want a film M, folks, now seems to be the time. I’ve already bought (and sold) my quota.
Anton, thanks for the link to 893.
Mike.
Panos,
“Everything that’s new is a threat…”
it is not about threats but about choice
choice and pleasure
You choice is digital
I feel your pleasure
I do
I choose films
but you will not feel my pleasure
because film is so fucking expensive in this times
but I can take a thousands digital frames
and I will never be so happy
so fucking happy
like when after a month or year I develop a film
and I finally see whet is in there
I discover
my own eye
There is no reason I still take pictures
than childish pleasure
peace from hammock to you my friend
http://marcinluczkowski.com/photonews/bq2.jpg
Just for a change from the hard out music scene I’ve been shooting lately; I’m off to the local country music club concert night tomorrow. Only just around the corner too, couldn’t be closer!
john, abele, Thomas – It’s been a busy week and still is, but finally I dropped by again – thanks!
You all made me laugh.
You too, Civi, for the comment on Royce.
Well, got to go again before I can even properly catch up.
Don’t know all your answers Anton but I will send you mine and you can sign it and put #1 on it!!!
What a day. Tomorrow is the realtor caravan. Worked for past week on landscape and last two days on house. Staging, etc. Picking flowers, making bouquets, cleaning toilets, feng shui-ing everything, even my lanai. Ready for the caravan. Sticky, dirty, tired; house looks fabulous. Feels so clean. Now into the shower so I will feel clean.
Lee
Panos.. aren’t your posts up there a bit elitist??
Anton,
I’ll come to you and invite for a coffe while you sign my copy of the magazine :)
Cheers!
PANOS.
ALL those millions of obsolete after two years cameras; broken after two years cameras.
ALL those tens of millions of batteries clogging up landfill sites.
ALL that power used every day globally ANY time anyone wants to view an ‘electronic only’ image.
ALL that storage space, redundant every five years, to file the images on.
Clean energy? Give me a break.
Anton:
putting in a pledge for nr. 21! Thanks and cheers! And congrats for the first part of your post, looking forward to see the outcome!
…and all that ‘chip on your shoulder’ stuff about people with ‘expensive’ darkrooms..
I bought mine from a local lab for £250 complete. Tore my kitchen out and set it up in there. didnt cost a thing….in fact I could have made about five of them for the price of that ‘clean’ camera you tote about. Chemicals cost pennies. The only expensive thing is paper, and you dont waste that; you make a print that will last someone a lifetime. As will the negative it was made from…which lives in a £1 file folder.
MICHAEL WEBSTER. I have no no idea what harpers is ( I assume its a mag), so no I didnt see it in there.
In fact I had never heard of it until someone walked into my studio yesterday and said “hey, want to go to brazil and make a film?”…cool! The people I am contracted to at the moment are sponsoring the england team and they want a documentary made….thats kinda what I do for them :)
Will it be serious?…who the hell knows?, will see when I cut it what direction it flows in….but i will certainly take the making of it seriously.
john – that sounds like a treat of a commission.. good for you.
great opportunity.. snaps please. upon return :ø)
the complete darkroom i used from 16 to 21 years old cost me 20 quid, including some chemicals n old bulk film, from a car boot sale in redhill.. the prints, mostly shot with a 20 quid zenith camera, got me into collage a year later..
off out to photograph island life in the north sea now.. and drop by nursery as tor capa left his tiger teddy at home.
s p l i t loyalties.
Wow, it’s all going on here…congrats to all of you with good news, always puts a positive spin on the day to hear about it.
John G ……
i have been using the same digital camera for 4-5 years now (hav a d200 since the month they launched it dnt remember the date) …. with 2 block lenses …
i just disposed off the battery that cam along with it …. i have bought 2 extra ones in the 4 years
…yes they have been charged a million times … but m pretty sure it causes more or less similar amount of damage when compared with what the silver halide does to aquatic life …..
… i still work from my first laptop …. a good friend of mine … a hard core film user just like yourself…….. won a archival printer in a photo competition … he kindly passed it on to me …. its pretty small …. i can pretty much do everything u do in ur darkroom using only the old dinning table disposed when we got the kitchen re done ….
Ross, a cooling off period before editing photos: good idea!
John, Rio, sounds good, post some photos.
Concerning energy, I remember a Top Gear TV interview. Petrol-head Jeremy Clarkson (Jezza) asks Mayor of London, Boris Johnson, where the electricity for the “clean” electric cars comes from. Answer from Boris “From the plug”. Boris is a politician.
Mike.
John;
The problem there is that too many people get sucked into the “have to replace every two year” marketing hype. But I do see where you are coming from. A while ago I saw a report on the Prius’ carbon footprint (due to batteries and power generation) and it was worse than most similar sized petrol cars! :-)
I’m shooting a bit of film again; B&W in the old FM2 and a “new” Zorki. And also the Holgas too. I can get my C-41 120 negs developed for $5.50 a roll and have them back in a couple of hours (I then scan them), so have a good deal going on with that.
I’ve got to make a confession; I’m 47 and have never processed a roll of film! I’ve got the Patterson tanks and coils but have never given it a crack.I always shot slide for mags and libraries, and E6 was too much of a pain to process. I had a friend offer to teach me (B&W processing) but have never got around to taking him up on it.
As for Kodachrome before E6; it used to 12 weeks to get it back from the States after the Aussie plant shut down. Each morning you’d go out to the letter box hoping one of those little yellow Kodak packets would be inside!
:-)
Mike; “Concerning energy, I remember a Top Gear TV interview”
Also when Clarkson wound the greens up because they had complained how much extra energy the little world cup (I think) flags on private cars used up? He worked out how much the green mp’s beard would weigh, and how much extra energy it used up to transport him compared to if he was clean shaven! :-)
Anton, a big thank you for your Lulu thank you! Laughing and anticipating my copy! Will also send for signing – with return postage!
Mike.
ALL,
my burn T_Shirts and Hoodies arrived today. They look great!
I’m quite sure everyone already has one, but if you want to order a second one,
http://www.cafepress.com/burnstore
feel free :)
Cheers!
(Can somebody put the link prominently to the link section, please)
Ross, yes, Jezza and Co are a laugh. I liked the “Vietnam Special” where he bought fellow-presenter Richard Hammond a model ship, complete with sails – must of been all of 3 foot long – as a present. Of course he only bought it to watch him attempt to transport the thing the length of Vietnam on the back of a scooter. It didn’t fare too well.
I used to process my own b&w film, and nearly gassed myself making Cibachrome prints from colour slides in an unventilated darkroom (the spare bedroom; happy days). You have to wonder, what would we make of film and chemical processing if digital had been invented first?
Mike.
“I liked the “Vietnam Special” Especially the collander helmet!
David Bowen:
seeing this (winning the international photography award in don’t know which section) http://www.photoawards.com/en/Pages/Gallery/zoomwin.php?eid=8-13595-10&count=0&code=Special I had to think of your chicekn pic of the other day..
John:
Got the Jindrich Streit book, thanks for passing along his name!! And have fun over in Rio!
David AH:
Talking about interaction.. as said, not easy, but perhaps.. http://www.slowemotion.it/pics/interaction.jpg (her on the ladder with her daugther-in-law to the right).. Hope you have a good day shooting today!
Fantastic Vivek!
I use exactly the same equipment as yours
cheers, hope to see you again soon
The “Vietnam Special” – bepsoke suits and a pink scooter… What not to love?
Ross, I’ve never developed my own film either, although I am your junior by ten years :-)
I’ve got everything together now (except a decent scanner), so I think I will give it a shot. Shooting a few rolls of B&W to develop with Diafine (baby steps…)
Just developed this HP5+ (shot last week) in D-76 1+1…
(this time of year though, the temperature of the tap water in Nicosia doesn’t drop below 30 degrees C—not even at 4:30 in the morning…)
http://www.tzalavras.com/Random_pics/Nicosia_52-09.jpg
Eva in what way? ..:)))
John true.. Batteries are not a good thing.. Like I said I’m not an environmentalist either.. I wanna be but till then, the wannabe remains..;)
Laughing.. I do have that shoulder chip .. But johnnie u also carry that huge ansel Adams box too on the left and a whole dark room on the other side.. Yes yes, I do need an extra battery for the massive chip but at least the only water I use the water I drink…!!!;).. And by the way make sure mortgage has paid so the darkroom stays in that “room”.. and make sure car payment is paid too so u can drive around for chemicals..
All jokes aside: it’s what’s IN your photo that counts , not how u made it… Marcin nailed it: Darkroom is your pleasure, your way of having fun and as of that I totally accept it and encourage it..
Some others like porn and some others videogames.. Whatever makes u happy.. ;)
Panos
I do not have a darkroom…. hmmm… Am I should have one? why should I? Who need darkroom in digital age :)
“it’s what’s IN your photo that counts”
really?
And what important is in OURS pictures?
another pretty girl?
another street scene?
another boobs?
another hungry child?
another war?
another disaster?
another family?
another landscape?
another backyard?
another drunkards?
another sunset?
another boobs?
and war?
and poverty?
and boobs?
and war?
and boobs?
yes I totally agree it’s what’s IN your photo that counts.
PANOS,
I like both…I am hybrid …old fashion though I like chickens and cows …
Thanks EVA,FROSTFROG,keep it up DAVIDB…GORDON…AUDREY our silent power,AKAKY, LEE,
so many …you are amazing… I need updates …I miss you ALL…VIVEK,FRANSESCO,MIKER,
MW,THOMAS,MARCIN,ROSSY,THODORIS,JUSTIN,VICKY…you are so many…LOVE TO ALL…I know you are out there
clicking…
ANTON,
I am speechless and proud, mate…I can sign for you…I can copy and paste…hiii:)))
JOHNYG is going …RIO…!!!
VIVA France…I will be back… September…hmmm…bad timing again
what can I say once a civilian always a civilian…
where is the coffee???
“it’s what’s IN your photo that counts.”
I will copy and paste…next to my BURN shirt
damnit…
WHAT NOT TO LOVE…BURNIANS…
Marcin,
Boobs or starving kids or porn..
It’s all the same.. Most important is to express oneself..
Regardless the subject.. Express oneself to the point that makes others spent time and feelings on oness work is what makes one a good artist.:)
A little trap: is when one does it only to impress others..
Then we have Britney spears.. But if primarily one does it to express oneself and release demons then we have Diamanda Galas;)
HOW the WHAT is IN it is as important as WHAT is In it.. ops.. there we’re back to the ability to tell… it’s a circle..
Panos, that trap is a huge trap, not a little one, and counts for all things in life! My 2 cents..
Well, I think more than Express oneself is important to trice self-esteem up.
Who am I?
I am nobody.
I do nothing in my life than processed food in fertilizer
and procreate
Who am I?
What I did value?
What my life worth is?
I am nobody
and then you bought a camera
Who am I?
I am PHOTOGRAPHER!!
Wow!
I show the truth of the whole world!
My pictures are more worth than life them-self!
my life is more value now because I have supreme purpose!
I don’t fear death!
I know who I am!
I know why I was born for!
Because I AM A PHOTOGRAPHER!
and then your camera falls into the sea…
Who am I?
I am nobody…
peace :)
Ha ha yes.. I forgot to say that for me the ability to tell is more important from the story itself.. Actually I think if Anyone needs to tell a story then they must have a reason.. They probably think it’s important story to begin with..so I’m not gonna judge that.. I will tell anyone.. Your story sucks.. I’m not interested to see your photos.. My only judgement is if I like his/hers ability to tell…
I’m not a newspaper editor u know.. I don’t choose stories by content.. I like Art instead
I mean I WON’T tell anyone your story sucks.. I’m not an editor to chose that.. I chose stories
I chose ART not stories (freaking iPhone , it keeps guessing and types whatever it likes)
Marcin all great artists were “nobodies” with the greatest ability to tell..
Think of Salvador Dalis “Jesus on the cross” painting..
How many million “Jesus on the cross” paintings have we all seen right? Boring as hell.. Right?
But why Salvador Dalis one is a masterpiece?
Because of his ability to tell/paint.. Not of his subject ..
all great artist were “nobodies” with huge ego it’s mean there were never “nobodies”
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_of_Saint_John_of_the_Cross?wasRedirected=true
Christ of Saint John of the Cross
they were never “nobodies”
typo
Now compare S.Dali to this:
http://www.lostseed.com/extras/free-graphics/images/jesus-pictures/passion-of-the-christ.php
and the conclusion is??
It’s the ability to tell my friend that separates the nobodies from the “nobodies”.. Not their subject…
Ok peace out.. Keep repeating myself is boring to say at least:)
Big hug Marcin
and now is raining…
and one sentence to add… when you will have finally ability to tell you need someone to hear what you want to say it’s mean you need a lot of friends who will tell you how big artist you are… isn’t it?
thomas… eva… mike… civilian…
you bet… and jay! what not to love….
hugs
a
Storm here too:
http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=1250655606591&comments
and Panos when I write “you” it is not You but it is general, just anyone… ehhh in polish it is much easier…
I hope you not keep it personally
Marcin.. No worries.. I know.. Same as Greek..
“you” usually means “oneself”..
I know , I know.. And I always enjoy your philosophy my little “dark poet” friend.. Big hug
DAVID,
Hope you are well and enjoying the summer… I just smiled when seeing your last two Twitter posts… I could have written those…. Last Saturday I was bored at home as wife and kids are away on vacations enjoying themselves in the South of France while the father is trying to earn a living :):).. and then I forced myself to go into Brussels… Had 3 hours to go and then said, OK, you need to come back and bring a decent picture… Tried to get myself going as if I was shooting for one of your workshops :):). Had no idea where to go as Brussels is not always the most inspiring place to photograph but, I ended up near central train station, saw a fair and then did “your trick,” picked a spot and then stayed there and waited to get a few picks… had fun, light was great, plenty of sun to reveal colors, deep belgian clouds… I do not pretend the pictures are the best but really had a great time…. Then Sunday comes, I say GOOD, let’s go back and be real serious this time and spend more time and then…. light was horrible, no inspiration, felt really not on and then came back home a bit depressed…. As you say, you never quite know if this is your mood or really the light that was just too crap that day…. I guess this happens to all of us all the time….
For fun, these are few pics from the Saturday part….
http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=203814&id=730758488&l=e0b800a068
Anyway, hope you had a better day today!!!!!
Cheers,
Eric
To ALL-
Multimedia or not… Does it help of hurt??…. that is the question….
I am sure most of you remember the work of Emily Schiffer and her essay Cheyenne River, one of my favourite essays shown here on BURN.
https://www.burnmagazine.org/?s=emily+schiffer
I absolutely loved that essay and looked at it many times and still came back to look at it once more recently… I think there is something very special about Emily, these kids, the river… mystic, magical for me… Now by pure chance on the net, I ended up seeing a slideshow of Emily this time with the sound, voices in the background…. Obviously the work is still great but then, I had projected a certain atmosphere in my mind that was different… I had made these pictures “mine” in a way and the sound did not go along what I had in mind somehow…. Nothing bad but I personally felt it was actually negatively impacting the pictures which are so strong they can stand on their own… Just curious to hear what you think and if you feel the same or differently… sometimes multimedia really helps but sometimes it can work against…
http://www.therawfile.org/stories/cheyenneriver.html
What is your pov?
Cheers,
Eric
Can anyone help a techno-dummy (me!) please. If you back up your best pics to a CF card like David was recommending; do you just put your card in a card reader and download the pics to it as a seperate drive? Sorry if that sounds really dumb! :-)
Drag and drop Ross.. Same way like u r downloading new firmware.. Computer thinks tha CF card is a harddrive.. Drag and drop
Eric, regarding the soundtrack for Emily’s photos, I agree, the sound is not complimentary, it’s distracting, subtractive.
John Gladdy, others, if you’ve never heard of Harper’s, it’s a great general interest magazine, pretty much the last one standing. In addition to great magazine writing, they publish a lot of art and photo essays. Don’t know how available it is outside the U.S. Not sure whether it’s unfortunate or not, but they’ve pretty much declined to participate in the internet age, subscription required, though it seems they do have a blog now. http://www.harpers.org/
Thanks Panos! :-)
Eric…
Seems to me that in this case you are just suffering from the initial exposure. I suspect that had you seen the essay with the soundtrack first you’d find it less bothersome. Kind of like hearing and loving a song for the first time. Any other version pales in comparison.
But for me, generally I like quiet slideshows. Like you, I make them mine. I create a narrative in my mind. Don’t usually need a soundtrack or narration to influence what I see or how I feel about it.
Hope all is well with you my friend.
Cheers.
Eric
Gotta agree with you here. Emilys essay is one of my favourites. I was moved enough to send her a box of cameras for her project. But the multi-media thing does not work here.
Ross
SD cards are harder to keep track of because they are so small, but are half the price of CF Cards.
Gordon; thanks for that. Are they as stable as CF? I’ve never used the SD cards. Cheers :-)
Ross.. SD cards are newer technology.. Way more secure than the CF card technology ..
But I’m not badmouthing CF.. Just think that Leica uses SD exclusively for both M8/M9.. Not a coincidence..:)
Ross
Dunno, but in any case, solid state is apparently more secure than a hard drive. DVDs are iffy. I’m in the process of downloading my 2010 portrait files from saved dvds due to a hard drive failure. So far, two dvds have come up as blank on the main computer, and thankfully read OK on my secodary computer. Stressful.
In future, I’m thinking I will archive finished files on SD cards in JPG. I can buy 16 gigabyte cards for less than 100 bucks..cheap storage really.
Like they say, there are two kinds of hard drives, those that have failed, and those that will fail. Tough lesson for me.
Eric,
I too, find the multimedia distracting…. Don’t know if it was the wind in the mic, or the tempo of her voice that didn’t work for me…. Curious why she chose to put audio with her stills….. ***
All that.. Gotta admit I never had a failed CF nor SD.. not yet al least..
But as Gordon nothing to be trusted for 100%..
only death is for sure.. Everything else pending:(
Hey Panos, speaking of SD, can you guess where I am?
Twice I washed my CF cards without protection box in the washing machine and they still working and probably not notice they was washed in 50 C degree.
yep… never problem with CF cards
SD…hm..South Dakota?..;)
Thanks Gordon! :-)
Twice I put a dollar bill in the laundry.. and it got crispier ..
CF …hm..Cali Fornia?..;)
Panos; so now you’re a money launderer too? :-)
ERIC…
i am not sure i would refer to the link you sent of Emily Schiffer as being a multi media presentation, but surely it is a different presentation than what we have seen before..frankly, i just like Emily’s pictures as good old fashioned b&w photography as it was straight up…i do not need this soundtrack to be either enlightened or entertained or informed…it pretty much kills the sentimental mood she set up with the pictures alone….
PANOS…
when i mentioned storing pics on CF cards i was thinking SD cards as well….any solid state technology would work for me in terms of being a bit more dependable …it is hard for me to get my head around SD cards being more dependable than CF just because they look and feel so so fragile… but that seems to be the word….yea, i have had Kodachromes, b&w negs, and CF cards all go through the laundry at one time or another….hot wash and heated dry…all ok…..
Just got in from a shoot at a local country and western music club night at the local hall. $3 admission and only 2 blocks from the folks place. As usual the best images didn’t come from the actual gig, but of the ladies in the kitchen preparing and serving the supper.
I think this is the first time I’ve shot a music event and been home by 10.30pm! Usually that’s when most of mine have started! :-)
MW…
nice “where i am” work…Coney Island? nobody catching much from the piers here..hope things better up north…
Hi David, no, I was out west for a few days, taking oldest child to college. Those photos were from Oceanside, just goofing around. They were catching some big fish, actually. Made me consider buying a pole and fishing off the pier at Coney Island.
David , laughing..;)
You know “us” burnians already..
We can even dissect a two letter word and analyze the poop out of it… SD ( South Dakota), CF (Cali Fornia)..
Michael have fun in Coney..my almost “new venice/Avalon”
that never actually became one.. But maybe I’ll give it another try later..
MW..:)
I’m considering buying a pole too.. but just to practice in my room alone.. I don’t want to get humiliated at the next “amateur night”…;)
Oceanside California … Michael if u take 76 highway all the west you’ll end up in the heart of Indian reservations and casinos.. Lots of $$ to be lost there:)
Oh Ross.. I wish.. So far just old clothes launderer:(
i am sure some of you will take great pleasure in knowing that i am suffering..yes, suffering from our most common mutual ailment…no pictures….i mean, nothing is happening….pasa nada…now i say that having had just recently some amazing days…but, today so far is not it….but, it is friday night…and a hot summer night it will be …so leaving you all now to go see what i can do….yup, just like everybody else out there…no pictures…yet
DAVID,
I am sure there is no one person who feel pleasure that for a moment (probably a second) you didn’t take any great pictures. Only cameras from advertising brochure taking always great pictures (even if they are switch off).
have a fun tonight
dance with pretty girl
drink mojito
good pictures will comes next
:)
MARCIN,the “dark poet” friend
is this how you do it???:)))
“have a fun tonight
dance with pretty girl
drink mojito
good pictures will comes next
:)”
I do all the above…hiii…except the photo part :)))
BURNIANS …inspiration comes with …perspiration …
a pounding heart, quickened breathing …you are in the zone…
Come on…you’ve been there…use your fingers…
you have been warned :)))
I LOVE YOU ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL
Civi,
This way is reserved for David only, for macho man, for The Captain
I am fasting for forty days and contemplate before I take picture.
http://marcinluczkowski.com/bb1.jpg
buhahahahahaha :))))
MARCIN…my apologies…:)))
i love your buhahahhh…it suits better my personality…
oime…life is weird …buhahha:)))
“…Need a cold rainy day to write…”
So, why not move to northern Puget Sound or coastal British Columbia? Think of the epic novels you could turn out!
“…nobody catching much from the piers here..hope things better up north…”
And this year’s Fraser River sockeye salmon run is the best since 1913! 25 million fish headed upriver to spawn, and the commercial fishermen have been raking them in.
Reason I never really fell for the East Coast.. everywhere south of Rhode Island is flat and sandy. OK, you have dunes here and there. But here we have it all… mountains that come right down to the sea in sheer rock cliffs a la Norway and Iceland, sandy beaches and dunes as well in places, and many-pronged river deltas with mud flats and marshes like mini-Mississippi’s.
“And this year’s Fraser River sockeye salmon run is the best since 1913! 25 million fish headed upriver to spawn, and the commercial fishermen have been raking them in.”
Sidney, are you working for the chamber of commerce or the tourism board now?
You know, there’s something perverse about catching fish that are just trying to get laid.
Laughing…laughing….police sometimes acts like that too:)))
..vice depaRtment;)
“…Sidney, are you working for the chamber of commerce or the tourism board now?…”
hmmm…I thought I was holding …this position….
“…police…vice department…”
and this one…
buhahah:)))
back to the regular problem…where are the ladies???
You get a dirty look if you ask for a carne asada burrito with no beans in Los Angeles..
But not in Santa Monica.. Over here the customer is always right:)
Well Panos, I figured you’d recognize the general vicinity, be impressed by the postcardy feel of the pier shot and enjoy the incredible Canon colors of the other photos. I wanted to get up to Venice and Hollywood blvd and relive a little of the old vibe, but just couldn’t do it this time. Just chilled with family and got a bit medicinal. But I should have plenty of opportunities in the coming years. I’m sure I’ll have to fly out tp post bond or something like that at some point.
Regarding sockeye salmon, I have kind of a love hate relationship. Spent a season in Hell up in Alaska fishing for the fuckers one summer, have serious carpal tunnel as an everlasting memory. I’ll tell ya though, you haven’t tasted salmon till you’ve tasted it fresh off the hook. It’s a whole nother culinary experience entirely.
You get a dirty look if you ask for a carne asada burrito with no beans…
As well you should.
Panos,
If you want an all beef carne asada and not get the “look”
head to El Centro. Beef for beef’s sake down in the Imperial
Valley.
POMARA,
I trust you… Beef, BBQ and Blue Angels
You are daman.
Today, sockeye salmon on MW…!!!
How do we manage to go back to the food section…
I don’t know…I guess, it’s the Pacific wind…:)))
I will be back
ANTON,
Just ordered 893… looking forward to it.
PANOS, MW, CIVI, SIDNEY,
Just had my weekly farmer’s market piece of very expensive King Salmon, line caught locally. Really nothing like it. All by lonesome though – M&F got on a plane back to the Fatherland. Doing fine though I guess Felix didn’t sit still the entire flight.
I wrote the afterword to Touch Me I’m Sick fucked up out of my head. Sometimes that works. Now I just head to the local coffee shop with laptop in hand. All grown up…;)
CP
I just asked for rice instead of beans.. That’s all :(
“So, why not move to northern Puget Sound or coastal British Columbia? Think of the epic novels you could turn out!”
Or if you really want rain, the Olympic Peninsula … but the vampires kinda suck. (even i’m cringing at that one). Anything less than 80 inches a year is a desert Sidney. :))
I do miss the east coast beaches, badly. I wonder how much OBX has changed in 24 years … holy crap it has been 24 years since I’ve been north of Beaufort (great little bars on the waterfront I remember and classic creepy graveyard a few blocks back). I suspect putt putt, water slides, pier fishing, hobie cats, bikinis and brew thrus are about the same along with the occasional hurricane. Honestly, that you still have brew thrus amazes me … I need a t-shirt, my old one finally wore out.
Sidney, Akaky
Greetings from Vancouver Island. Had Sockeye Salmon tonight, and last night for dinner. Bought fresh from the dock three blocks from our house. To die for. We will go buy more tomorrow for the freezer.
Mmmmm sockeye … Quinault sockeye (they call them blueback) are excellent, especially if cooked traditional way next to alder fire on the beach.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ge9dyWzxDAs&feature=youtube_gdata_player
More “propaganda”.. Or is it the real reality???
Don’t watch if weak stomach..
Touch me I am sick … That’s what I call
Masteriece …VIva CHARLES…And don’t forget
FELIX is a CIRCUS kid …he can’t stay still:)))
Back to the salmons…
Oime…it’s BURNing here
I have a strong stomach:)))
REISEFEBER, REISEFEBER, REISEFEBER
next week Italy :)))))
REISEFEBER, REISEFEBER, REISEFEBER
Anton (or anyone else who knows)…
Do you have any thoughts regarding choosing paper stock for offset printing??
By the way…
Does anyone know how much Lulu charges for shipping Anton’s magazine to Europe?
(it looks like you need to create an account in order to find that out…)
Thodoris. Mine cost £3.99 shipping for two copies.
Mine cost £2.99 for one copy to u.k.
Hey all. Packing for my trip to Oklahoma and Arkansas. Will see my lovely daughter and grandkids in a few days. Yea. I probably should have packed today but didn’t. Got my bags down though.
Regarding Anton’s 893: remember we can send to him and have it signed, the original printing anyway and numbered. Very exciting. Anton not making fun of you I promise. Just in case something gets lost in translation here.
Check out my neighbor’s house tonight. The intersection just beyond that was unobscured for a long time. I have a shot of this intersection before this house was built.
http://picasaweb.google.com/100779520756323721614/Neighborhood#slideshow/5510385764289846402
Panos,
I was thinking a bit but your words “it’s what’s IN your photo that counts , not how u made it”
and I have to say, I do not agree with you.
probably as we all every morning I watch Lens Blog where we can see a thousands pictures from around the world. There are mostly very informative and journalistic. But without a few exceptions I do not feel need to know who is author the images. I do not care.
And yes this is a way for photography, but it is limited. I live longer and longer, I’ll be watching pictures like that all my life it mean that sooner or later I will see “another disaster and another war”. I is inevitable.
We can read another S-f book or we can read Vonnegut’s masterpieces. If you read one and you like it you have to read all of them, because you will see someones mind inside. You will see more than “story” if his book, you will see wider that what is in book.
the same with John Irving’s books, you see value of his work when you read more than one, or jim jarmusch’s movies, or… ect .
you don’t want to know the stories only, you want to know what the author thinking about world, what is his perception of life. WHO THE AUTHOR IS.
Martin Parr, Sanginetti, D’agata
and all of this people very carefully selected his way of communication.
I do not agree with you because digital technique is fast and easy, so easy that nobody care for looking something special, something unusual.
People with digital cameras are more lazy.
we have ours 5D’s and d700’s we can pick in PS to add something new inside but the images are quite similar. How many frames you are able to create with the same cameras? and most of people just taking thousands pictures and look at them in screen.
last 100 years of photography was so interesting because there was a thousands ways to make images. small, medium, large photography, hundreds ways for develop and print pictures.
Tens kinds of films, slides, b&w, color, negatives.
pinholes cameras, lomo, russian cameras, and the best images from, leicas, hasselblads, linhofs.
and now I have impression, if you working on films you are some old creepy guy in dust darkroom who will print for all day a pictures of his cat.
Todd Hido prints his photos himself from color negatives!
Alec Soth worked on 8×10 camera.
Martin Parr is not the same Parr since hi i using digital cameras.
so YES!! lest we all buy D700 or 5D II
lets be clone of one fucking way of taking pictures.
and to finish that comment, it is not important what you have in your pictures but who you are, and what is your impression of life.
And if you will be talented, you will have The ability of tell, and you will have great subject in your photos.
but soon we all will have one or two tools to do it!
Note for all:
Do not be ignorants about medium for telling your stories, please.
PS. I wish be enough talented to create something unique.
John, Mike…
thanks…
Thodoris,
mine cost 7.99 € to Germany. When you order, they show you the price before you actually have to commit.
SIDNEY…
well, i was born on the west coast (SF) and have explored all up and down over the years and agree with your geographic superlatives, but still end up preferring the east coast….not exactly sure what it is (sunshine, proximity new york?)….i mean we could trade “features” of this that and the other thing all day long about east vs. west and come to no conclusion…places tend to be about the people you know and the little experiences you have had to make it special…no doubt in my mind that one little life drift this way or that and i would be in love with the west coast…i am writing now about why i live where i live….yes, the Natgeo piece i am photographing is also my personal diary so to speak of the outer banks…mostly i think it must be the smells and sounds…the mix of thundering surf, salt air and pines, and now a cardinal chirps and so i guess that is about it…
cheers, david
MARCIN….PANOS…
i guess there is no way to end the “chicken and egg” discussion of who ,what , when, why, becomes someone with the “ability to tell”…mostly , which comes first…the what or the who? a “nobody” who becomes “somebody” (your terms , not mine) to my mind became “somebody” only after taking the same elements around them that “everybody” has and turn it into “something” and then they were recognized by all the others around as being “somebody”…it does not seem to me that they could have been “somebody” first…i mean nobody is anybody until somebody says so and only after they have created something just a wee tweak special out of the nothing that surrounds everyone all the time…
Marcin, i would not worry too much about the tech changes…how the picture looks in print has as many variables as ever..so what if all the different types of cameras are gone that used to make those looks? isn’t the picture the main goal?? my iPhone can make a picture that looks like a Holga…the print can look exactly like the Holga…so what? it will still be the discerning EYE both in front of and in back of whatever device you use that is most important…but of course i am using Mamiya and tri-x and have my darkroom too!! but being “lazy” can be with film or digi…yes, more photographers now can be “lazy” with digi, but leave them alone….let them be lazy….let them have their fun…again, so what? it is only the ones who are working and thinking with whatever medium who will make the mark anyway….and do not worry one bit….digi photographers are making their mark…..and with D700’s etc …..and big egos?? oh yes, any artist must have one, BUT big ego alone doesn’t do much…certainly big ego has nothing to do with big talent as we must all know by now…but big ego and new iPhone might change the world!!
I lived most of my adult life out west — California, Washington and Arizona — and never thought I would move east, except possibly to live in New York for awhile. At some point, I pretty much quit caring where I am. Maybe it’s the internet. Maybe it’s because I’m always living in great places with city arts availability and nearby mountains and seas. Might sing different, sadder tune if transplanted to Kansas, though hopefully I’d just learn to love the small town architecture and wheat fields. Would definitely want a motorcycle. Anyway, taking my daughter out to California awakened the old memories of how exciting it is to be young and on the move, but this is the first time since I’ve moved east that I visited the west and didn’t seriously want to move back there.
I generally agree with Marcin and Panos about the shortcomings of the Nikon/Canon look. The advantage of those technologies, however, is that they give you the widest range of choices for capturing images, particularly in low light. And if you don’t want the picture postcard look, you can always put something else in front of the lens, or create your own color palette in Photoshop as many people here do. Sharp and accurate color may not be where you want to be, but it is still a good place to start if you’re going to make adjustments.
DAH, “i mean nobody is anybody until somebody …”.
Can a nobody be an anybody if they are a nobody – and can a nobody skip being an anybody and go straight to being a somebody? Laughing, David.
Marcin, “you don’t want to know the stories only, you want to know what the author thinking about world, what is his perception of life. WHO THE AUTHOR IS.
Martin Parr, Sanginetti, D’agata…”
Yes, the cult of celebrity; are we attracted by the singer, or the song? To have a lasting impression in any field of endeavour you have to be able to produce consistently over a prolonged period of time. Some people have a reputation and people buy their works but, while they may be initially attracted to a persons work by their reputation, the majority will only buy the work if it is any good. I suppose “You are only as good as your last photograph” sums it up. So it’s the song that is important.
This year I started with film and I’m now shooting digital. Digital has it’s own signature (look) and so does film. I like film and I’m thinking about buying a new Leica MP (again) or maybe an M9. Whichever camera I use, my shooting style is the same: I don’t think about the camera, just the photograph. When shooting digital I have the LCD preview switched off: if I’m on the street shooting and I miss a shot – too bad, it’s gone.
Good light!
Mike.
MIKE R…
yes, of course, nobody can become somebody if somebody else decides that they can be somebody and not nobody…i think that somebody can also become nobody if they try real hard…and i too have been seriously thinking of the MP….while i did and do make the argument pro digital, i think in my particular situation that film will always be there and might even become my primary medium again…for me at this point i think that editions of whatever i do are important…and editions in the classic sense are better done with film….one piece of 6×7 film exposed by me this morning and printed in my darkroom in the afternoon will have a certain appeal….mostly to me…i love the thought of printing from the med format negs…and i am now putting together a Leitz Focomat enlarger which would handle the old negs and anything i do new with an MP…back to the future?
LEE GUTHRIE…
safe travels amiga…and if you get any further north than Arkansas, please let me know….mi porch es tu porch….
DAH,
My West Coast “Chamber of Commerce” comment was totally tongue-in-cheek, I hoped you realized!
I was born in the Midwest and have some fond memories of childhood there… dusty sweet-smelling cornfields, lazy river bottom-land with raccoons and box turtles, euchre games and walleye fishing with rural uncles… but I mostly grew up in proximity to New York City, which is where I had my first jobs, my first loves, attended my first college, took part in my first demonstrations, was a chronic denizen of the great museums and parks there. Oh yes, I fully understand the allure of New York! But for personal reasons, and maybe reasons unique to the time, I left New York behind, with no regrets then or later, in my early twenties.
It was the army that first introduced me to the West Coast, but the timing was propitious… 1966 and 67… the Hippie Movement in San Francisco and Big Sur, the first Human Be-In in Golden Gate park, the Monterey Pop Festival… but it was the dramatic landscape and golden Mediterranean climate that seduced me most of all.
Since then I have lived in and fallen in love with a variety of landscapes and social milieus… from the heavily forested Oregon Coast Range to the sweeping almost treeless grasslands of the Palouse Hills, the lush tropics of Indonesia, the sub-tropical upland known as ‘New England’ on the New South Wales-Queensland border, and the mountains and coasts of Japan and Korea, the Catskill Mtns. of Upstate New York. And then there are the cities I have loved… Seoul, Sydney, Bangkok, and Singapore… Paris and Amsterdam… Portland, Seattle, and Vancouver… and the place where I have lived the longest continiuous stretch in my mutable life, Kyoto, with its thousand-year narrow alleys of wooden houses, its golden temples and crimson shrines, its annual round of seasonal festivals, its overly-precious arts and rituals, its weight of history, and its hauteur towards outsiders.
What makes a place desirable and satisfying for long-term residence has to be personal, and is of course very closley linked to the people we know, the contingencies that brought us there, and the stage of life we are in. I agree with mw that the internet now makes location a bit less critical… for my sustenance and for my sanity, I need to be linked with East Asia on a daily basis… but email and the internet, and the Asian diaspora (there are little pockets of China, Japan, Korea, and Vietnam up and down the West Coast now) make it possible for me to do that and live almost anywhere.
What lingers for me, personally, is a nostalgia and low-level yearning for some places I never got to live in or never got to spend as much time in as I wished… my list and your list may be different, but what they have in common is a love for and a curiosity in the wider world… and a romantic imagination that sees buildings, landscapes, faces, smells fragrances, and hears fragments of song, and from them conjures epic novels of lives and loves that might be… but to really live in a place… to become part of its fabric, part of its community, to know and interact with its people, not just in one’s own personal milieu but across generations and through time with a wider community… that is something that requires long and deep tenure, and realistically speaking we cannot get to know more than a few places on earth in that way within the compass of a single lifetime. (Yes, from a Buddhist perspective, it’s true that such desire condemns me to further incarnations… from my own perspective, it means that my molecules may circulate endlessly through combinations yet undreamed of…)
So, wherever you are, if the place you are in gives you both stimulation for your imagination and a sense of engagement and belonging, if it lets you be who you are while challenging you to be still more, if it gives you a balance between comfort and adventure… then it must be good place to be, and consider yourself lucky!
Cheers,
Sidney, wonderful post!
SIDNEY..
great piece amigo….
“Sidney, wonderful post!”
Truly. Sidney, please write a book about … anything. Seriously.
DAH, one day I will knock on your door I am sure.
David,
yes, yes you have right, maybe only I see things different. Not important. But anyway because of what is in pictures and how the pictures looks like this is my favorite picture ever.
http://marcinluczkowski.com/photonews/alex-urban-01.jpg
sorry… You are right… why sentence with so different meaning have to be so similar
Marcin, she looks like an ancient Greek Goddess ..:)
MARCIN…
i love that picture too…except for the guy in the white t-shirt in background, who could easily be made minimal
DAH,
Me first gallery show http://twoeightproject.wordpress.com/2010/08/13/the-2-8-project-is-a-gallery-show/
I’m still searching for a beret. The gallery talk is Monday. Most likely lots of young impressionable
minds. I hope I can behave.
All done with M2
Paul…
Congrats on gallery show! Just came from perusing your site. Nice work. Funny… saw the image of Darlington House menu. Had lunch the other day there with Marovich… in the downstairs pub though, not the nice shi-shi joint upstairs!
teeny-tiny little puny world, eh?… and getting smaller! ;^}
Cheers.
POMARA
hey Paul , congratulations…now that lead photograph certainly does not look like M2 material, so i am curious about the rest of the show…
Michael, the world is small indeed.
My child graduated from Darlington School.
It was named after JJ Darlington.
We had dinner there a couple of years back.
David,
If common sense is a requirement of having an M2 then I’m in trouble.
Shot that with a 35 2.8 . I got invited to watch a falconer friend
run his hawk. Nothing short of awesome. All of project is personal work
and I intend to keep building on it.
Sidney
Thanks for that.
Panos
I’ve had one CF card fail completely, and two glitch, which made me discard them. I also had one instance of an SD card failing (not mine). I tried my recovery software on it and could not retrieve anything.
Multiple back-ups are the only way to be truly secure.
MW…
i did live in Kansas for almost three years…loved it…nice folks…did miss the sea however, so that alone took me back east…did have a racing Ducati for almost three years…loved it..nice bike…did miss the comfort of a car however, so that alone took me back…
Ducatti!!???
For such a tall guy??
mama mia!!!
I can barely fit in my Lamborghini..
Trade it for a Kio Rio;)
Italians make everything small.. well except from the Coliseum I guess :)
Paul, congratulations on the show and the 2.8 project. Good captions!
Mike.
Michael K..In the downstairs pub though, not the nice shi-shi joint upstairs! LOL Shi-shi in Hawaii refers to going pee! Giggle
Marcin, she does indeed look like a Greek Goddess. Don’t blame the guy lurking in the background. He just wants to be closer to perfection. Ha.
Panos, Lee
She is not look like Greek Goddess she IS Goddess! And my love is I am afraid the idolatrous.
David,
I don’t notice there a man, in print he is almost invisible… or just for me ;)
Paul,
Its look very nice!
Thanks Mike R, Marcin, et al.
Very difficult editing. The ship has sailed so
I’ll see how it goes.
Marcin, I know you know (from your ..And my love is I am afraid the idolatrous.) this kind of love cannot live up to your expectations. Love advise from Dear Abby.
PAUL O’MARA,
We the BURNIANS will be there
on Monday… We will be cruising
the gallery …next to you…
just hold your wine with two hands:)))
THODORIS,
$7,30 …your credit card will do the exchange
LEE,
Thanks for everything…now it’s my turn to wish you
Safe travels … Hugs and kisses to our grandkids …
You are a great soul…!!!
When I see that there is a post from SIDNEY or AKAKY or KATIE
BOBBY, REIMAR of course MR.HARVEY and others …
I am getting ready… A glass of wine some wild berries,
some roasted almonds a leg from a rabbit …
and then my reading odysseia begins…
I am a slow reader BUT who can deny …
BURN is the place to be …
P.S MARCIN…I see no man either
Sorry 7,30 dollars for Greece
Lee…
Heh! There’s never enough ways for saying you gotta pee!
CIVI,
Your presence is requested. Please…
The MOON GALLERY. Just off Martha Berry Hwy.
If you get lost call me. Dinner after the
show. Bella Roma, Krystal, Schroder’s ?
You make the call.
:))))))))))))
PANOS…
yes, hot 200cc overhead cam racer…this lower displacement Ducati could beat all the 250’s and was in the 250 class…because of the overhead cam, this engine could rev up faster than the competition…coming out of a sliding corner and down on it in second gear, this instant rev is crucial to get that split second ahead and is the time to do it…….the only time i actually ever felt competitive in my life was racing motorcycles…dirt track scrambles…evolved into motocross….felt early on, as i do now, that racing was a whole lot safer than riding in the city streets or the highway…
PANOS…
yes, hot 200cc overhead cam racer…this lower displacement Ducati could beat all the 250’s and was in the 250 class…because of the overhead cam, this engine could rev up faster than the competition…coming out of a sliding corner and down on it in second gear, this instant rev is crucial to get that split second ahead and is the time to do it…….the only time i actually ever felt competitive in my life was racing motorcycles…dirt track scrambles…evolved into motocross….felt early on, as i do now, that racing was a whole lot safer than riding in the city streets or the highway….my wanna be career as a motorcycle racer sure woulda been a whole lot safer than my life as an itinerant photographer
I can confirm that back in the 60’s Ducatis were considered hot bikes… not as big and macho as Triumphs or Nortons, but hot little engines and a nice ride. I didn’t own one, but it was the first bike I ever rode. The electrical systems on Ducatis were temperamental, however, and instead of those short bars you’d be better off changing to western bars if you used it as a road bike.
I was never a racer… used motorcycles as my main transportation for many years and for long distance touring in Idaho and Japan, a bit in Indonesia… for that, I liked small to medium-sized Kawasaki Z-series road bikes (I’m a small guy). Acceleration I never needed, but a comfortable and dependable workhorse with a low center of gravity. Vrrrooooommm!!!
One of my mates rides a Ducati; he bought it about ten years ago. It cost him a lot, but he reckons that the cost spread over 10 yeaqrs it is way cheaper than having a therapist! :-)
Well I’m thinking of a new forearm tattoo..
As Lee once told me once you start you cannot stop..
Or maybe save some dough for a mountain bike..
Speaking of two wheels..
Or maybe get me a room somewhere.. It’s hard to sleep in a car but way harder to sleep “in” a bike..;)
Couch (Surfing) in California is not always fun..
Surfing is..;)
I’ll do the tattoo..
How about “massive chip” written on my shoulder?
Hmmm,now THAT’S a great idea!
What not to love?
Beautiful moon tonight..
Nice breeze from the Pacific..
The lights on the Santa Monica Wheel shiny bright..
The only view that compares with what my eyes are seeing right now,was the view from the Roof on the Kibbutz..
Pure bliss and inspiration.. I could even die this minute
and I do believe I’ve seem the most beautiful/ inspiring places on earth .. I’m lucky.. Very very lucky.. Saturday night and I haven’t had a drop of beer nor smoked anything, nor I will.. Life is as good as it gets right now..
I feel like echoing Civi and say loud towards the ocean:
Love u aaaaalll!!!
Panos; When I lived in Perth, West Australia there was a tattoo shop in Fremantle with a sign that said “Tattoist”. I always wondered who would let someone who can’t even spell their profession put an indelible mark on their skin! :-)
I would.. They only copy and paste/scratch skin..
No need to spell;)
Maybe he was paying his sign by the letter???
Coz that’s how they charge you:))))
SIDNEY…
on the track my main competition tech wise were the BSA’s and the Triumph’s..both made good 250’s…all the Japanese bikes that were to quickly take over the market and flat out kill the British bikes were just around the corner…anybody would laugh now at how i had the Ducati rigged for dirt racing..
PANOS…
yes, i know that view too…good on you
MARCIN, MIKE R, DAH:
Is the suggestion being made here that to use film is now reaching the point that the photographer is considered more of an artisan?
Obviously the photograph has to be at the highest level to begin with, but if that photograph is made on film, it seems to me that there is an additional consideration and commitment going into that photograph. As DAH wrote: there is a “certain appeal.” I guess the question I am asking is, how important is that appeal to the audience of a photograph (visitor to an exhibition, gallery curator, print collector etc)?
I use film (Fuji Provia) exclusively, both for its visual, tactile and tangible aesthetics. I do not make a point of emphasising this when I present my work, but I find that the audience of my photographs often ask about how my work is made and are very interested and positive to hear that I still use film.
As for a new MP or M9, I’m sure the simple pleasure of walking the streets photographing with an MP could never be matched using the M9.
Justin P
JUSTIN…
i suppose it all depends on who is buying….certainly mass markets do not think about anything but the picture, or rather mostly about the information in the picture, whereas discerning craft oriented buyers i think these days are looking for the more artisan approach as well as the fineness of the image…i am certainly taking the artisan approach which includes making my own prints…not a new idea for me…just a return to my original thinking and roots…and this becomes quite exponential with every new idea i have these days….i will still shoot for the so called “masses” of course…..i like magazines and production house books….
the point is, having an elitist market so to speak is not my goal any more than bending to what the so called masses “want” is my end game…i quite enjoy communicating with the so called “masses” with pictures of “everyman” because i am part of that mass and am one of “everyman”…..at the same time i quite enjoy creating a “one of a kind” craft oriented item from one of my images that could conceivably be held in high regard in someone’s home as a part of their environment and life..as any art object that we all have in our homes…
so communicating and creating art go hand in hand for me…my vision does not change to match the final “destination” of the work….i shoot what i see….period…there is no conflict at all unless one makes it unnecessarily so or if one gets confused by their own perhaps arbitrary parameters….
i am out playing all the time with my little GF digi but have printed very little from it so far….i have not played lately with 35mm film…been all med format film recently for my “artisan” side….i need to play again now with 35 film to really see IF the fantasy of the MP would match what i remember or would really rather DO on a daily basis….i THINK the MP would be the ultimate camera, but will it really be so? …M9 feels pretty pretty nice…anyway i will let you know
cheers, david
Justin, I suppose the argument could be made that a photographer using film is more of an artisan – as long as he/she develops their own film and makes their own prints! Otherwise I see no difference.
I was shooting film (page 10 and many of page 11 on my webpages are film photographs (click on my name, above – you knew that, didn’t you?) earlier this year on a Leica MP after quite a few years using digital. What I found was that, while the shooting was the same as before, the infrastructure had practically disappeared i.e. camera stores that stocked film, chemicals, neg pages, binders etc. had gone. I had to order film etc. via the Internet.
As for the importance of using film for the audience, you write about presenting your work (Fuji Provia): how do you present it? Is it as a slide show or in print form and if print do you present photographic prints or prints from slides?
I scan my film but can still see the signature look of film in the results – which I like. I imagine that if any photographer has good work to show, the audience won’t care what media was used to produce it.
Mike.
DAH, you beat me to the post!
Yes, individual prints made by yourself in your own darkroom are the ultimate and probably the most valuable long-term (I don’t think in term of value personally, but it’s probably true).
I don’t have a darkroom or even room for one at present, unless I build in the loft …. Hmmm, the loft…(laughing).
Whichever medium I use, I really must print more.
Mike.
Wow David, a Ducati 250? I am impressed. I rode dirt bikes as a kid, did a little formal motocross, a lot of informal. Best bike was a two stroke Suzuki 125 with a factory kit. Bike ran hot, to put it mildly, but would make it a few times very quickly around the track before blowing the piston. Going from motocross to street bikes was very dangerous. Soon found myself in stupid little races between the lanes on the LA freeways, particularly the 405. Remember one time hit stopped traffic going 90 miles an hour. Asshole on the Kawasaki 1000 backed off. Thought about death a lot in those days. Would never ride in New York. May be crazy, but not quite that stupid. When I inevitably move to a more rural area, however, I’d love to get one of the BMW GS series on road off road bikes. Saw a lot of them in the Sahara and ride a similar Suzuki 650 on my Socal visits. Would probably be ideal for Kansas. Ideal for photography as well.
I respect what you’re saying about high quality handmade artisanal items, the only qualification being that they be better in some way than the mass, or newer technology produced alternative. Speaking generally here of course because I know there’s no question in the case of your photos and darkroom. I’m sure that will be something special. But handmade for handmade’s sake gets in the territory of dilettantism. And I’m afraid that’s the territory inhabited by many in the audience Justin is talking about, people who revere film simply for film’s sake. So if one is primarily interested in selling to a particular audience that is impressed by the means above the ends, I can see how using film might be a good strategy. But if one is primarily concerned with ends rather than means, I don’t see how one can argue that film is across-the-board better than digital. It’s not like “film” gives you just one look. Are Tri-x and Velvia the same thing? The main difference I see is that although the default look of either film or digital is created by a scientist in a lab, the individual photographer has much more control over the final look with digital. I’m not saying that’s always the best thing, but nevertheless, it is across-the-board true.
MIKE:
I’m talking about exhibition prints. As you say, film has that signature look – and different films have different signatures.
Isn’t this what Marcin was suggesting, that the “signature look” of the film can be seen as part of the photographer’s authorship.
DAH:
Why not just use your old M6s, they must be broken-in to perfection after all those years of use. How in your mind do you see measuring the MP vs. M9 as the “ultimate camera”? Both using the camera in the field and the final print result? Again this comes down to “look” you want, doesn’t it?
Justin
Just came from the Leica site to see what all this MP talk was about. Found this:
The Leica MP is a supreme tool. Handcrafted, created for the photographic artist. Designed to deliver the essentials. Focused technology for focused photography, without the distraction of automation. It’s for making pictures only a true photographer can see, frame and record. Not a quick fling, but the camera for a lifetime.
Ugh. Sounds like somebody from the J. Peterman catalog wrote it. Pretentious as hell. But hey for 3500 bucks I guess you better have good copy!
Sorry… make that 4500 bucks!
…the “signature look” of the film can be seen as part of the photographer’s authorship.
I know that’s a popular notion, but I just don’t see it. I’d say that the “signature look” of the film should be seen as part of the film company’s “authorship,” not the photographer’s. Any photographer can buy the film and get the look. Not in any way saying that film precludes authorship, still plenty of room for differentiation obviously, but it certainly does not guarantee it. Then you scan the film and make adjustments in photoshop and what have you got? Not such an obvious line these days, is it? Please don’t get me wrong. I’m not at all putting down photographers who prefer film. I have a great respect for that kind of hands-on craftsmanship actually, but I’m not so sure about the buyers Justin refers to.
“Any photographer can buy the film and get the look.”
Nope. It’s also question of how you expose it, how you develop it and how you print it, and with what and on what you do that, for that matter. All this happens DURING the picture taking and the picture making (as in developing and printing), not in photoshop after the picture is recorded on a chip, and where you can adjust exposure in PS or Lightroom afterwards.
How you handle the film from A to Z, that’s what gives the signature look.
Film can’t guarantee nothing, just like a camera cannot, whatever camera that is, if you don’t have the knowledge of what you got in your hands.
For all you Leica M fans out there, last week I sold an absolutely mint Minolta CLE on Craigslist. For those not familiar, it is like the Leica CL (which was made by Minolta), but had an electronic shutter, aperture preffered auto exposure, and frame lines for 28, 40, and 90 lenses.
I bought it for $4.99 at my local thrift store. I only asked $500.00 for it and had a guy show up on a motorcylce with cash in hand almost immediatly. I had a dozen or more others who would have happily paid me $1000 for it.
Years ago I shot my personal work with an M4-2, and a CL. Loved ’em both, but my Canon Rebel shoots circles around them.
My nostalgia for film has pretty much all to do with nostalgia for the cameras. The “Look”, you can get pretty much any film look you want with digital, there are even plug-in programs that will give you presets for all the old films you cherish.
On the other hand, medium format does have a unique look, due to the much more limited depth of field for any given angle of view. Loved my Mamiya RZ, but got tired of waiting for a $1000 full frame 6×7 back.
Is digital too easy? The same argument was made by painters when photography was invented, and then repeated by photographers every time there was a major technical advance. I don’t believe that the value of a result should be perportional to the difficulty in obtaining it. A friend of mine has devoted much of his life to making colour carbro prints. I always cant help but think he should just get himself a good inkjet printer.
still about Leica cameras (disclaimer: I used a M6 a lot before settling on medium format; loved it, or better loved its summicron), I was looking for Kindle 3 reviews and found this (http://ireaderreview.com/ it seems it’s not the typical place where photographers hang around ;)
“Q40: Will people think I’m cool if I carry around a Kindle 3?
A40: No, they’ll think you’re intelligent and in love with books. You should get an iPad if you want to be pretend-cool and a Leica camera if you want to be super-pretend-cool. Your other options include getting a platinum pendant, wearing Affliction T-Shirts, and wearing Trucker Hats. Out of these only the Leica camera is guaranteed to work more than 50% of the time plus if you learn how to use it you actually become cool.”
didnt we just have this ‘film is dead! -no it isnt it just smells funny’, debate a few days back?
but, what the hell? Michael webster. “any photographer can buy the film and get the look”…what look is that exactly?
The pushed look?
The pulled look?
The Diafine/two bath look
The hot devved look?
The rodinal long stand devved look?
The old school Zone N+/- pyro look?
WE MAKE THE LOOK. by deciding the parameters for the stock we have chosen to use, based on experience of that stock, and its behaviour both in different chemicals, and when over/underexposed.
And thats before we even get to printing….which adds a couple thousand more variables in to the mix.
God this argument is old and pointless. If you mainly shoot digital and have only a passing acquaintance with film technique, then cool, just keep doing what you enjoy doing. But please dont make statements you may not be qualified to make.(and no, shooting a bunch of tri-x at box speed doesnt really count)
If you only look at prints on a monitor, then fine, but realise that handling ‘actual’ prints, whether wet or dry made, is a different game altogether.
And heed what gordon says(which is somewhat true…up to a point) 35mm digital pretty much does outperform 35mm film in most ‘tecnical, parameters, and a good inkjet once framed may be indistinguishable from a 35mm film print. But for the same reason that a synthesizer is NOT a Steinway(although which of us could tell from listening to a recording?????) A 5d MKII is not a LEICA R6.2
….and I want to play an instrument,using my skill and craft to make something of value to me. not use idiot proof electronics to emulate one to please some theoretical audience who probly couldnt give a shit either way. Dont know about anyone else but I make pictures for me, and for the sheer pleasure of doing it.
I still stick with film not because a nostalgia but because very specific images I try to reach.
I am taking a snapshots. Nothing important pictures. No BIG STORIES behind them. But when light is right and scene looks like from impressionists paintings I want have best way to capture it.
Two years I spend with D200 try to find something what will fire my mind, and even if I have some nice pictures there are not close to my heart.
Even if on my pictures is my family I want have the right image.
But of course it is my choice.
And about choice is all about, not what is better one.
When I bought my leica, it was not important the tool, the films inside was what inspire me. Is was something I set oneself against. Something unpredictable. Something surprising.
I am try to buy a medium format camera now, maybe some cheap used hasselblad or bronica. Next step to keep my ming in fire. Something new.
Inspiration.
Porta 160vc and images I will try find.
COLOR, COLOR, COLOR, COLOR, COLOR, COLOR, COLOR
It will be fun!!
Got an M9 (well M8 first) and haven’t looked back. Shot one roll of film through the M7 in the last year. The M9 is just that good, a real pleasure to use (and not “idiot proof” at all – it’s still an M) and I no longer have to run film across town and ‘gulp’ at the lab bill and then never get around to scanning as I have enough back log of archives to scan as it is. Yes, with digital I probably “shoot too much” of any given situation, but is that really a bad thing? Will continue to shoot medium format film – makes sense for that look is so different and yummy.
I do love silver prints and considered myself a master printer (my printer swears every time they have to match something I did in the past). I hope to be able to do it again someday – but only after the first thirty years of chemistry and metals is finally leeched out of my system and my chronic health problems (like headaches, candida, etc) are cleared up and long gone. Make sure you have kick ass ventilation (I never really did though tried best as possible in the various closets, kitchens and bathrooms) and wear a respirator if need be (I did for the last several years of my darkroom life). I think it seriously affected my health, though others mileage may vary. Many photographer’s pooh pooh the physical and enviromental affects of photographic chemistry (so and so lived to be 94 and they practically bathed in the stuff) but it’s real and crazily enough never been regulated. Not sure how it could be though and still have a market. God I miss the craft aspect of it but nothing else (clothes and body stinking like hypo!!! yech!)
Okay, back to those easels/computers and make some prints!
Charles
what look is that exactly?
Ummm, the look of the film. Or the look of the film with whatever process you choose.
I didn’t mean to partake in the film v digital argument. Even if there actually were some scientific method to determine one is superior to the other, I wouldn’t care. I just don’t see that great a difference between the two. Not intellectually anyway. Their looks all result from applied scientific principles and have been developed, extensively tested and charted in the lab before being marketed and sold. What we choose to do with those products, what looks we choose to create for whatever punctums, or truths, we can reveal, well, that’s the real story, innit?
And yes John, I too make pictures for myself, though I’d probably phrase part two of your construction as “for the sheer pleasure of having done it.” And of course Thing A is not Thing B, nor is it Thing Z. A Leica is not a trampoline. Right, thanks. And I see plenty of prints, no doubt some of the finest in the world if you believe the hype about all those high-falutin NY, Paris and London museums and galleries. Am I qualified to comment? Dunno. What are the requisites? And I really don’t get these constant attacks on peoples’ cameras. Sure, some saws are better than others, or better at certain tasks, but in the end it’s the quality of the thing produced rather than the thing that produced it. Believing otherwise is just snobbery. Not everyone can afford a lot of choices. We have to make do with what we can. The variety we see here on Burn dramatically demonstrates the relative unimportance of cameras or processes. If this dialogue posed the question, “The reputation of the camera or the ability to tell?” how many takers would we have for the camera?
I’m not belittling anything you hold dear John. Just not belittling some of the things you belittle.
BTW, did you get the email I sent with the article? Don’t know what kind of research you do for your projects, and I realize it’s not entirely to the point, but thought you might find it helpful.
I don’t really care whether my camera is film or digital, as the output of both end up on my Mac anyway. What I DO care about is my camera; the way it operates and how discreet it is.
So, for me, the full frame DSLR is too big. The Leica M8 I had (the M9 has the same dimensions) was/is too wide in the hand and difficult to get a good grip of (don’t tell me about the Thumbs-UP: I’m not spending almost £5000.00 on a camera body and then inserting a bent piece of metal into the flash shoe in order to gain a decent grip on the camera).
The film M is slimmer than the digital M and fits my hand like a glove. The viewfinder of both Ms is a bloody disgrace: it’s almost impossible to see wider than the 35mm frame-lines without having your eyeball pop out of it’s socket.
I love the LED method of setting exposure. I love winding on film to the next frame. I love Leica lenses. I wish Nikon or Canon would bring out a reliable full-frame digital or film camera with a Leica mount. It’s Photokina next month! I wished the same thing two years ago.
I am a gear-head. It’s three months since I bought a camera. I take it one day at a time. It’s Photokina next month! ….
MW,
http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=7-6468-7844
enjoy!
Charles ..
I second your comment:)
Heh heh… The pretension and snobbery is strong in here today!
michael, the film/digi debate usually is :)
but it’s all just personal preference…i’ll sometimes look at someone’s pictures and think how much film would suit the way they see but they’ll be working to their own vision, not mine.
i’m glad i enjoy it all. (though film is of course better! jking ;).
leica leica leica! god I am tired to reading about this stupid argument. It is just a tool. I don’t care if you shoot with a disposable or a $5,000 status symbol. You can either make a photo or you cant. the pretentiousness of some of the people who carry around a leica is amazing to me sometime.
there is the old saying that people who cant shoot, teach. people who cant teach, picture edit.
I will add one more. People who cant do all of the above like to talk about the damn leica around their neck.
(and before I get flamed off the site, no I dont think that everyone who uses a leica is this way. but there are plenty of people who own one that cant take a photo just like there are people with a D3 that cant.
One more point… I would wager that over 90% of the most important pictures taken in the last 20 years, were NOT made on a leica.
OH WAIT, This was a discussion about film or digital…. OOPS Sorry about the rant! (GRIN)
“but there are plenty of people who own one that cant take a photo just like there are people with a D3 that cant”
A bit like the old days when you turned up to shoot a protest with an FM2 and a 35mm lens, and all the newspaper guys looked down their nose at you because they had the latest F4,5 or 6! I always had a laugh at their snobbery!
@ ALL:
A good reason to use film cameras…
“What makes Eclipse’s system special is that it can detect any digital camera, whether it’s using a flash or not, and before the first shot. But Abramovich’s shield still has a serious weakness: it can’t possibly detect the presence of an old-fashioned analogue or mechanical camera”
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2009/sep/22/roman-abramovich-yacht-paparazzi
This is really sad, Roman, put your money get some good players and win the Champions League at least…
Patricio (angry).
ROSS
Exactly! Who cares. Just make pictures.
However; I do see the merit in using film in Holgas compared to a digi plug-in. But that is more about the camera’s variabilities. With a plug-in Holga simulation you are working to your own pre-visualised idea of what the image will look like. Whereas I find that even the sheer act of focusing (at different distances etc) can mean the lens will yield a different effect. Usually an effect I couldn’t have predicted. And that’s before you throw in the fact that each Holga (even of the same model) has a different “look”!
PETE…
i do think there are many Leica users who simply have it as a status symbol…i am guessing 90% of Leica users have no idea how to use it…even my inside Leica man says that everyone at Leica Camera Inc knows who their primary market is…various professional types who have a lot of disposable income…non pro photographers like retired dentists…then there is also the serious Leica collector crowd…so, i can understand why you might get on a “what is with this Leica bit?” enough is enough….and yes, yes, for heavens sake, just take the picture!!
however, for the serious Leica user it is indeed a tool, but a tool of finesse and fineness..i can tell you beyond a shadow of a doubt that there are indeed some pictures that i could only take with a Leica..the handling, the viewing system , etc. do make for a different photographer behavior sequence and shutter timing envelope…the dance or ballet with the Leica is just flat out different than with my D700…yes, my eye is the same..should take the same picture with both cameras…but alas not in a heartbeat…Leica much looser…much more playful….and any serious Leica user will tell you the same…an acquired taste to be sure and not for everyone, but for those who know, they know….
i do not knock the dentists and attorneys who are keeping the Leica camera in production…without them , there would be no Leica….literally…no joke….it also means there are some serious “like new” Leicas out there…good deals…
Pete, we Leica lovers are just ordinary folks….can’t we just all get along?
cheers, david
Creating something unique and new is most value.
Not only the subject in picture
and not only pleasure of moment of taking picture
this is how I see photography
not making a mark
not sacrifice for subject
not being in business
but I am not a photojournalist. And this is my own smallworld philosophy.
I am snapshot photographer.
And I make nothing unique yet.
OH BAH, Humbug!
“the dance or ballet with the Leica is just flat out different than with my D700”
Most likely because you have used a leica almost exclusively for how long?
I have a 700.00 pool cue. Used it for 15 years. Won a lot of money and lost a lot of money. Feels like a part of my arm when it is in my hand. Balance, feel and an extension of my mind when I am in the “zone” shooting pool.
I like it. Do I need it? No. I can still run racks of 9-ball with a bent bar cue. The ability is not in the stick. I can shoot the same, just wont look as good doing it. (grin)
It is all about what you know and what you are comfortable with. But I would bet that if someone banned the use of leicas tomorrow, you could still go out and make the same great photos. May take you some time to get your rhythm, but somehow I doubt it would be long.
Michael Webster. “All else is snobbery”..Maybe:)
But..All my leicas are working cameras that get the shit beat out of them all the time, and all are twenty years old or more. The newest lens I have on one is 1990 and at least one lens is early 80’s vintage…they all still shoot as good as the day they were made( a little stiff on focussing rings on a couple that been dropped many times). As I said they get well knocked about. I have dropped my main camera so many times I have lost count..it still works just fine. They are just ‘saws’ as you put it, but If I was a carpenter I would for sure buy the best saw I could get..just as both my brothers who are mechanics use ‘snap on’ pretty much exclusively….are they snobs too??
And yes, give me a cheap nikon d70 and I will make you good pictures all day long on it, no question, have done it many a time…but it wouldnt last a year in my camera bag. And more importantly….I dont want to use it.
I could easily get around in a lada or a nissan micra. Both would get me from a to b just as easy and reliably as anything else…I mean its not the car that matters right??
Pete, I don’t doubt David could make great photos with whatever camera he used but they wouldn’t be the same great ones.
Don’t we all have cameras that feel more right than others, that somehow fit us better even if we know several very well?
” but they wouldn’t be the same great ones.”
What does that mean?
Panos, at least put a hammer breaking the chip up. You don’t want to have a chip on your shoulder for life.
Pete.
Every camera has it’s own look, what you take with a DSLR isn’t going to be the same as one taken by a medium format….they can obviously still both be great but they’ll be different.
Oh boy! Useless, fun photo philosophical debate!
Now Pete, I get your drift, but I’ve gotta tell you
something. In 1977 I was going through Navy Photo A
school and one module was a week of “photojournalism”,
(easy now, this is the military…) I was issued a
Phojo camera kit that consisted of a M3, 21, 35, 50 and
a 90. My week with that kit left a lasting impression.
When I was offered my M2, I never hesitated.
Now David AH, that MP is one fine overpriced M3.
It seems logical if you want a bare-bones film Leica
that finding an M2 or M3 in good shape and sending it
in for a tune-up is a value move. Despite the high price
of Leicas, I found Leica repair to be reasonable.
My personal project I talked about yesterday is connected
to the M2. Mostly because of the minimalist camera selection.
Ok, now on to film: Damn this is fun! I’m using CN400BW because
I’m not interested in going back into the darkroom. I just wanted
to work in BW intentionally. Now for the dirty little secret:
I take the film to CVS and have it put on disk, no prints.
I work the images in Lightroom. A 50 year-old digital camera!!!
PETE,
Lets turn that around – if they banned slr’s tomorrow could you go out and take a great pic with a Leica or other rangefinder? I bet it would take you a lot longer to get a grasp on it than the other way around. They take some serious practice but once you get you are hooked for life. And yes, many see it as a status symbol, but there’s just as many of those out there who somehow feel they need a Nikon 200 f/2 lens to shoot Jr’s soccer game or the casino at night from their yacht.
What David says about the dance is true. There’s something about not seeing exactly what you are going to get that can create a special kind of magic – or dog turds of course, just like any camera in the wrong hands. There’s also something about the limitations of the Leica – ie no focus closer than .7 meter, no super long lenses or whiz bang tech, that can make one see and work differently. My other favorite camera is the Mamiya 6/7 which I used to shoot a book of breakdancing photos. Until you use a rf, Leica or otherwise, don’t knock it
A local famous photog (other than myself;)) once bought a Canon 35 1.4 AF lens off of me, a serious chunk of glass. He noticed my Leica and was “what is it about those things anyway?” I set my little Leica 35 1.4 under the shadow of the Canon 35 and asked: “so which would you rather carry around for a month?” He laughed and paid for my lens.
Best,
CP
DAH, i second your comment. In fact when i read it, I imediately thought on Alex Webb. Can you imagine him withouth his Leicas? (of course he has a big problem now without Kodachrome). His way of framing, aproaching to his subjects, loosenes, is so well related to the Leica style, that i just can not imagine him without one. And that of course is not a snobish aproach. Leica can really be the right tool for certain kind of photography. Simple as that.
I my self have use some Ms from some years. In fact right now I only use the infamous M8 with just on lens. The lens is a cheap voigtlander. But the concept works very well for me.
By the way, didnt you David had a M9? You had once in Brazil at least, didnt you?
Best regards from Madrid, and happy to post again. Stil remember our cañitas!
This article is a bit older (2005), I found it on Twitter today, and it seems to fit a little bit into the discussion…
http://www.robgalbraith.com/bins/multi_page.asp?cid=7-6468-7844
And just for the record:
My main squeeze is a Leica but my housekeeper is and always will be Nikon. Shot most of my best stuff with one and still do. But it’s the Leica that makes me truly happy and I love taking along with me.
CP
Pete–good points.
Olympus C series are indeed great shooters. My first digital was Olympus C-5050. Loved it. Images from that camera are still awesome and publishable. The C-5050 captured my honorable mention at the county fair. On my first shoot, with my first digital camera–just had it a few days. Was asking out loud to myself about what white balance to shoot in that hall. Hell, what was white balance? This tall man comes up, shows me in about 60 seconds and I caught my favorite portrait that night.
Thomas
Thanks for the link re: Galbraith and point and shoot cameras. Here is a guy embracing the strenghs of the digi point and shoot. I loved my 35mm point and shoot cameras, and still have a bunch of them. My favourites were the ones with fixed 35mm lenses, Minox 35GT, Pentax Espio, Konica big mini. My point and shoot of choice now is my little Fuji F30. It is a few years old but still astounds me with the quality of images it produces.
Lee, I had the 5050 for a while, though I ended up taking it back and getting the Canon G3, also an awesome camera. for the record, it was $1100 at the time, plus $270.00 for a 256mb CF card.
THOMAS:
Exactly!
CHARLES:
“if they banned slr’s tomorrow could you go out and take a great pic with a Leica or other rangefinder? I bet it would take you a lot longer to get a grasp on it than the other way around.”
Never said it did not go both ways. Used a leica for while a long time ago, back in the film days. Just never really cared for it.
I never meant to imply that there is anything snobbish about using, or even revering, the finest instruments. It’s snobbish to put down those who make other informed choices. Regarding Leicas, I’ve never doubted that they are superior tools, there’s just too much evidence to support that contention. Hopefully, I’ll get to test that theory for myself someday.
Hey John, the car example is the wrong one to use with me. I’m pretty sure I’ve never paid more than $2500 for a car, well maybe $3000 but that would have been in 1976. Yes, getting me where I’m going for the least amount of money is the main concern. So I look for mechanical soundness first and foremost when buying a car. Of course I go places most others don’t, so I prefer four wheel drive when possible. Ugliness is my only other criteria. I want a vehicle that no self respecting thief would deign to bother with. I generally leave them unlocked and the window cracked, particularly in bad neighborhoods. One of the high points of my life (this is sad, I know), was one morning in Washington D.C. when I walked out in the street and every car on the block had it’s windows broken except mine.
And even though I’m so anti-snobbery, I confess I am a bit snobbish against the 5d mkII. Those of you who saw my mermaid day thing may have some idea how popular they are around here. I can walk around the block where I work on any given day and see 20 tourists showing them off with 70-200 mm IS lenses. If there’s any doubt you can tell because 5D Mk II is written in big loud letters on the camera strap. Nevertheless, when I was buying a camera, it was the best one for the money, less than half the price of the comparable, albeit better, Leica. Like my cars, it’s mechanically sound, gets me where I want to go, and I’ve made it ugly with gaffer tape. And the most important thing is that it’s good enough that I can never (well, very rarely) blame the camera for my poor photography.
changing the subject somewhat.
BRAZIL!
As some may know I am flying out to Rio in mid september to shoot part of a documentary. The homeless peoples world cup held on Copacobana beach. Going with the England team.
Which brings me to kit.
Of course this will be shot all digital(what no super 16??) :)
as this is slated to be a broadcast piece I will most likely use a sony EX1 as main camera, with probably a panasonic HDV as backup.(also 2 olympus point and shoot/video cameras…gasp!!) With the sony though I am using the LETUS ULTIMATE 35mm adapter and shooting through leica R lenses. This is because we want to get really funky and filmic looking shots. Trying to steer well clear of ‘straight’ documentary style.
The commisioners have given me and brett carte blanche to make what we want (foolish people)..and brett has me watching all manner of old films to get the flavour of what we will ‘attempt’ to do. Think jazz in the park meets alex webb in the house where rays a laugh was shot…on ketamine. Have much prep and a bunch of location shooting to do here in england in the next couple of weeks…and also a lot of kit testing and idiot lists.(luckily we have a very efficient production manager working with us on this, although our aim is to ‘go off radar’ as quickly as possible when we get there….all those boring interviews and press calls :) )
Hopefully DAH will jump in here at some point and help me out with some pointers on working rio style(fixers, drivers, bars etc…)…he is a bugger to get hold of on skype.
Anybody has any experience in this part of the world, or just has any info/questions I would be more than gratefull.
JOHN
Okay, a Leica story, fresh off the presses, no less. I went down to the great metropolis today, there, as usual, to see the natives in their colorful native garb, and whilst I was doing this, I stopped and watched a woman doing some sort of modern dance in front of the statue of Jose San Martin next to Central Park. Some people stopped to watch as well, and a bald man standing a few feet away from me whipped out a digital Leica and started taking pictures as well. I looked at it and sighed; like hitting the number in the MegaMillion Lottery, getting a date with Halle Berry, and losing fifty pounds, this Leica is something that I will never, ever happen to me. So I took some pictures with my Canons and then moved on, primarily to get away from Central Park. I know there are people who love horses, but I am not one of them. Frankly, I think they stink, but this is a rant for another day. As I walked down the street past the fancy hotels, I had a sudden realization: the bald man with the Leica was Joel Meyerowitz. I immediately dismissed the thought-stuff like that doesnt happen to me.
Pete, we Leica lovers are just ordinary folks….can’t we just all get along?
cheers, david
———–
Ha ha.. Nothing to add here.. Very well said..
Gracias DAH
But it’s the Leica that makes me truly happy and I love taking along with me.
CP
——
Nothing to add here either…
I think the beauty of digital know is that it has also democratised photography in the way film cameras did. I can pick up a Nikon D5000 for about $800 here and it will have the same sensor as my D300 (about $3,200 here). Sure it doesn’t have as many bells and whistles as my D300, but picture quality will be the same.
A bit like if I fed Velvia through my old FM2 I got the same results as the guy with the F6. I’m talking about general “people” work; not specialty suff like sport.
Something I find funny about modern photographers; In the film days I used to get tired of photographers saying “If I had 500 rolls of film to shoot like those Nat Geo photographers I bet I could shoot an “Afghan Girl” too” So now; film is “free” because we are shooting digital; but where are all those “Afghan Girl” images? There should be no excuse now! :-)
I’ve just began to play with that Zorki rangefinder I bought a month or so back. I’m using Fomapan B&W film, but haven’t finished the first roll yet. It’s great fun to use and has certainly provoked a few conversations at the local cattle auction. Or as some of the kids have said when they’ve seen it “That’s soooooo old school”! Am loving my “poor man’s Leica” :-)
Meant to be “beauty of digital now”; sorry…
Actually; it has probably democratised things more than film when you factor in the cost of processing etc. Especially so in poorer countries.
Well, I have picked up one useful insight from this long discussion of film vs. digital and the exceptionalism or un-exceptionalism of Leicas (and their owners)… and that piece of information is, never play pool for money with Pete Marovich!
AW… dont be that way…
8-ball. after the break, I will let you take any 3 of your balls off the table. (grin)
Never said it did not go both ways. Used a leica for while a long time ago, back in the film days. Just never really cared for it.
———
Aaahh!!!yes…hmmm..sure..ok!
PANOS
Exactly what are you trying to say?
Nothing! Speechless (grin)
I’m literally copying and pasting tonite!?;)
I’m sayin that I can literally translate word by word but I’m not gonna do it coz I don’t wanna offend the audience’s “ability to think”..;)
…all I’m saying is that life is good ”
I mean relax.. It’s not all about the money..
Some folks out there have passion..
Don’t dismiss them.. Like they don’t exist…
Think DAH or John Vink..
and a few hundreds more..
I mean come-on;)
….. just for kicks …. i have never used a film camera … and i dont know how to use a manual focus camera ….. i wouldnt know what to do with a leica !!! but i know exactly what to do if i had 5000 euros ……. lolzzz ……
JOHN G,
“also 2 olympus point and shoot/video cameras…gasp!!”
just a question: why you did not choose to bring a DSLR and use R lenses via an adapter?
Good luck for the project!
I mean: use the DSLR both for video and stills…
Pete – David – anyone else
Leica’s are nice smooth easy cameras – or so I hear. I’ve desired to shoot one for a long time – they’re quietness and discreteness are what I like about them.
I to shoot a Nikon d700 and it’s big and cumbersome – has made me have one bigger arm than my other too! but since I’ve always worked with Nikon – started with Film – this full frame is s near flawless transition to digital. I had a bumpy stint with a crop frame nikon for about a year or two but the full frame felt like home.
I’m moving back to film more now because I need the comfort of making something concrete. Something that will last – something that won’t disappear with the slightest bump on the right day as has happened witha brand new hard drive I bought.
For those who can’t afford a Leica camera but want to shoot their format, their optics, and their discreteness – http://tinyurl.com/voigtlanderR3A I just picked one of these up – still need a lens for it yet – making my choice slowly – I’ve decided on a 40mm since I currently shoot another camera with that focal length – & i love the shots. $560 for this body – brand new with warranty – 1x viewfinder and 1 – 2000 shutter speeds. available in mechanical or automatic (Aperture Priority w/ full manual)
David – Something I need to talk to you about – making a book. need help
I hate to admit it, as it makes me feel a tad inferior, but I have never shot a single frame with a Leica. In fact, I’ve never held a Leica in my hands. I have contemplated the possibility of buying a new digital Leica, just because I am fed up with big, bulky, heavy, cameras, especially following my shoulder replacement. Also, as that experience led me to the Canon pocket cameras, I have learned how wonderful it can be to shoot with such a small, discreet, tool and I think maybe the digital Leica could fill that niche with better performance and image quality – but I’m not certain.
Jason, I hear what you are saying about wanting to make something concrete, but I do not believe that a film image is any more safe or stable than a digital image. In my days of film, I lost more images to having my camera accidently opened before the film was rewound, accidental exposure in the darkroom, processing errors, film breakage or static electicity flashes in cold weather.
Once developed, a negative or print can easily be destroyed and often are.
When I shot my piece on the White Mountain Apache for National Geographic, there was burial picture in the take that the editors, Robert Gilka included, and designers at National Geographic loved above all else that I shot. They described it as a great photo, one that would long be remembered – and then they lost it. They told me not to worry, that they never lose anything, that it was somewhere and would show up, but it never did. It disappeared forever. National Geographic used another picture from the same segment of the burial, which was strong, but not as strong as the one they lost.
If it had been a digital image, it would have been backed up immediately – but, of course, there was no digital in those days.
Today’s solid cf cards are extremely stable and once shot the images can be transferred to multiple drives just like that, and those drives can be stored in different places. They can also be stored on multiple DVD’s – and I see signs that better and more stable storage devices are coming down the road.
That said, I feel very vulnerable right now because that same shoulder injury wiped out so much of my financial resources that I have been unable to afford to do triplicate backups and to store my images in multiple places.
I have only been making one back up copy. I keep thinking that I will get back on top of things soon and that I will get more drives and back them up and store them here and there and hire a kid to make multiple DVD’s for me, but it hasn’t happened yet and I fear what could happen.
However, I feel the same fear for all the negatives and slides that are stored in file cabinets and boxes here in my office. The only thing that would make me feel better would be to purchase a very expensive, high speed scanner, and hire a kid to digitize everything, make triplicate copies and store them in different places.
Abele. For the run and gun stuff the 5d is too clunky to be relied upon(not clunky as in bulky, but in handling). for the serious cinematography I needed something that was relatively small and yet full broadcast spec, and I wanted to be able to overcrank/undercrank in camera (rather than post)for effect work.and with the letus adapter and leica glass on it I can (hopefully) get some nice filmic shots. With it off its a smallish easily handheld camcorder that makes fantastic files. Also..Have to get clean audio,a must, both from shotguns and radios. No way to do that from a mkII thats not a fudge, and dont want a seperate sound person..trying to stay as slim as possible. At the moment a crew of four split into two 2 person teams.
the little olympus’s are for pov video where even the bare ex1 is too big, and for stills…Any stills I make for myself will be on film(havent decided what stock yet)
I do have a mkII and a full set of L primes, but is gathering dust on a shelf and never gets used because im a snob :)))
JOHN GLADDY…
i am a bit difficult to reach on skype these days because i am shooting all the time…if not shooting, i am thinking about shooting, so you know how it is…and when not either thinking or shooting on this outer banks project i am thinking about shooting and/or getting ready to go back and shoot in Rio….i do not know specifically about the homeless world cup , but Copacabana Beach is traditionally the place to be for beach soccer on any day…if i did not have so much going on in september already, i would be shooting right along with you…i do not return to Rio until november…i do not know what your budget is for local “fixers” but i do know some of the very best…and ones who very specifically work with film makers….you will need minimal help at Copacabana if that is to be your only location since it is a public place, but for sure some “security eyes” at least are necessary even on the brightest of sunny days….keep trying me on skype and i will look out for you as well…i am not always near my computer amigo even when you see my light “on”…..anyway, good on you for what seems like a terrific assignment….i am sure we will have a chance to go over what you will need in the next few days…
cheers, david
JASON…
nice to have you back here…and it is interesting to me that you as a young digi photographer are considering film….i wonder if there are many digi only shooters, who actually move to film not out of sentimentality ,but because of either the ease of archiving or the look…i think there is still a film look at least in the b&w med format and i will be able to report soonest on the feel of my darkroom prints vs. inkjet…but maybe this film look we love so much will go away entirely and there will be no “look”…however, not yet…and do not even get me started on all the reasons why i hate hard drives…anyway, sure i will talk to you whenever you want about a book…my favorite subject….
cheers, david
Jason, agree, the Bessa is a nice, small, light but solid enough camera.. I have a Voigt color skopar on it, from the dinosaur days (the pricetag on the box was pre €, so it was sitting there since at least 8-9 years), love the combo..
DAVID. Thanks amigo. Will fill you in on my needs when we catch up.
john
PETE…
if you can run racks of 9 ball with a bent bar cue, then you should get out of photography and go where the money is dude!! of course, we all get your point…and nobody could disagree with the basics of it…however, given the choice, i will take my Leica…i have probably shot more pics with all the film and digi Nikons for example than most people…really really used to them Pete…have shot at least three Natgeo stories with Nikon digi and one book…not to mention my Nikon ad campaigns…i like Nikon, have had many published Nikon pics, so i think it is fair to say i do know how to use them and am 100% totally familiar…….still, not the same..not the flow…not the “second nature” feel…not organic…worst problem: big and heavy with big and heavy lenses which just seem too obtrusive…maybe actually those big lenses are not obtrusive to most folks these days, but they certainly do not lend themselves to shooting the couple at the next table….that couple prefers my Leica i think….
and oh, by the way, YOU of all people might really feel enlightened by either a Leica or at least the Leica approach to photography…it is not just a camera, but a whole way of seeing……there are many “Leica style” cameras equally “loose”….that being a more freestyle approach….that ground glass makes everyone, i mean everyone, too too “aware” of things being “right”…..sometimes “right” is “wrong”…too tight…too composed…
go optical if you wanna be free….
cheers, david
David, looks like there’s a storm brewing…and as i’m sure you already know, forecast to be near outer banks later in week. hopefully no harm comes along with it, but perhaps useful to your current project? either way good luck to you and all other eastcoast denizens!
-mike
http://www.nhc.noaa.gov/refresh/graphics_at2+shtml/144553.shtml?5day?large#contents
MIKE PETERS…
you are absolutely right…at this very moment the weather is just too too perfect…just the kind of weather than precedes and follows the most horrific and glorious of experiences, the riding out of a hurricane…i stick em out …no evacuation for me…..anyway, will keep my eye on Earl…in the meantime, where’s the sunblock?
EVA..
is that what you use on the essay on the woman whose name i cannot remember right this second?
FROSTFROG…
Bill, your lost transparency story is scary…and i have heard it before…another friend of mine had a super select lost right before publication…however, it never happened to me…National Geographic never lost anything of mine after publishing more stories than any other photographer…i lost stuff, but they did not….curious why dupes were not made for your story?? i always remember dupes being made immediately for any story that was in production…
your argument for hard drives over film storage and the odds of destruction etc do make sense…you make the perfect case…but for some reason i just cannot get my head around it..right now, all of it is within ten feet of me…all of my hard drives and a whole bunch of negatives and contact sheets are before me….my dark room is about 50 feet away….my color printers are all in new york, but the mechanisms are in place for me to either make a pigment inkjet or a silver print….so, like most photographers , i have a foot in digi and a foot in analogue….i sure would like to subscribe to one or the other, but maybe that just will not happen….i have already shot so so so much film…a lifetime worth really…more than anyone imagines since i have been shooting almost daily since i was 14 or so..mostly not on assignment, but just pictures around the house etc…anyway, a lot of stuff…
point is, film will always be there for me anyway even if only in the archive….for me an archive should be alive…even for young photographers…maybe even particularly for young photographers…anyway, i just don’t know about the digi world…i am in it more than the film world, yet just cannot quite come to grips with it…my pictures sitting over there in those hard drives do not seem as real as the stack of negs and contact sheets two feet away…i know they could be, but they are not…that is the point…could be, but not…even if i NEVER do anything with these contact sheets, they already are SOMETHING..something tangible right off the bat…i am exaggerating a bit, but i could theoretically exhibit these contact sheets….just by the processing alone…the digi files are nothing until i make a very proactive move to make them tangible…all of this is mostly a mind game i know…trying to shake it…anyway, help me out…keep making the digi case!!
cheers, david
David…
yeah the calm before the storm..i imagine just the treat of a hurricane shakes things up a bit, changes peoples daily habits.. provides unique opportunites. take care and best wishes!
For the ranters, the disillusioned, the nostalgic, the cynics, the pretenders, the owners of scarves and Leica M’s (or any other Holga):
http://www.emphas.is/home.html
And please have a nice day…
oops! i meant “threat” not “treat”…though if no one and nothing gets hurt i suppose a good storm is a treat :)
JOHN VINK..
thanks for this link…yes, the future….
JOHN VINK..
thanks for this link…yes, the future….
MIKE PETERS…
the folks who live down here are all crazy…we live here because of this danger…knowing that mother nature could take us out at any moment….not political ….uplifting really…never felt better in my life…
David AH:
That combo (not specifically the color skopar, which is new to me), meaning a rangefinder cam and a 35mm lens is what I use for 95% of my pics, Fedora included.. rangefinders are the only cams which allow me to focus properly.. got some sight problems, but am too stubborn to let the cam down ;)
EVA…
ahhh yes, Fedora….great name..
DAH
how does one ‘tie down’ a house?
hope you and yours stay safe….
‘never felt better in my life’
LOVE it!!!!!!
***
David,
I thought prepare to hurricane is buying more films for you :)
I hope you are and will well.
WENDY…
i have no idea how one “ties down” a house…i had better find out …soon..i have “ridden out” a few hurricanes, but this will be the first with me as a property owner…i mentioned before, you cannot imagine how spectacular the weather now…hard to prepare for a potential emergency when the weather is so perfect….in any case, going now to shoot…surf is up!!
DAH
enjoy the light….
**
David AH:
Just in case, power goes off.. and you can’t charge the cams.. or the phone.. or the computer.. get yourself some film.. tie YOURSELF down and stay safe!
Hey David – Please be safe with the storm! I’ve often thought about shooting one my self – Almost went before Katrina hit to shoot it – glad I didn’t.
BOOK! yes I’m making a book. I’ve been diligently working on a longterm project since the workshop and I want to make a book about it – I’d like to know what I need for capitol, what publishing companies would be best to work with on my first book – I’m having a show for this project and would love to have some book copies to give to some of the people who have been helping me and maybe sell a couple.
Maybe this winter if you have some time to help me figure it all out – I can drive out by you in NY or NC and I’ll drag Mike Peters with me! He’s a great guy – full of positive energy. you’ld love him
Frostfrog – Film vs Digi – I hate harddrives – I don’t have enough money to be buying them every so often and replacing them – I’ve been in the computer world for nearly 25 years – (and I’m only 31!) I’ve seen some horrible disasters and many of them happened to me and my work – I haven’t got a single photo from my first two digital cameras due to catastrophic problems with technology. Film, once developed is more stable than a paper thin plater of glass spinning at 7500 rpms. And DVD’s? who knows in 100 years if they can even be used anymore. One can always pick up a print and look at it. I haven’t made prints in years. I just started to again with this project. digital is too easy to shoot it and forget it.
Tech – with the changes of formats, computer systems, etc – things phase out too fast for my liking. know anyone who has a zip drive? how about a 1.5mb floppy? 5×5? tape? even many of the old hard drives in computers just 10 years ago won’t work in a most modern computers – they’re all connected with SATA instead of IDE now. USB has replaced PS2 Sata will soon replace USB as it’s faster and do you see the trend?
Now forget physical damage and such – what about data corruption and virus, worm, etc infections of computers…
Film – i’ve “lost shots” by flipping open the back too early too – but those shots were latent and didn’t yet exist. so in my mind they were never taken, and will never be seen by anyone.
David – up until about 4 years ago – I was primarily a film shooter – I had only just started shooting SLR a few years before that – learning on my own to shoot manually. prior to that I used a handful of digital point and shoot and 110 cameras.
DAH,
What you said about film archives tangibility vs the nebulousness of digital on your hard drives: ditto the feeling. I have an Imacon scanner so I’m able to access my archives constantly and make high quality scans (I scanned all of CYPHER myself). And, yes, the digital just seems kind of not real or vaporous compared to all my film. But still digital is so good now (esp the M9) that it’s very hard for me to want to shoot film. If and when I start my next project it will be med format again though.
Doesn’t tying down the house mean moving in or securing anything that might fly (ie a bbq, plants, etc) and then putting sheets of plywood up on the windows? I’m sure your neighbors will know.
FROSTFROG,
You might want to consider the new Leica X1. At $2K very expensive for a p&s but the files I’ve seen off it are incredible. Not exactly pocketable but really light and well built. Might do the trick for you.
Best,
CP
“the digi files are nothing until i make a very proactive move to make them tangible…all of this is mostly a mind game i know…” David – I share your mind game.
WOW!
http://www.pierregonnord.com/
David knows this better than anyone – Well Mike Peters knows me as well – I’m a techy – so when I think about the infinite differences between film and digital – I think about the digital tones – they work on percentages. and depending on the softwares used to make, edit, print, and store – these percentages get adjusted. sometimes they look like a dithered mess. ESPECIALLY in dark scenes. Film on the other hand is easy and open. no percentage stops. it’s one graceful flow of tone from black to white and back again. even the grainiest photos look better than a slightly noisy digital.
—
I think the world has lost the knowledge of what it means to have a true design, a style, a look and feel about its self. It’s all about speed and where the money comes from. What I see in American photography is full of flash, glitz, and trying to make the person the photo is of the star of the show. We show so much blood and guts – it’s like the media has turned to the tools of the horror b-movie film industry. Everything seems affected by the looks and tools of hollywood, to me anyway. today everyone seems to be getting their 15 min of fame – Warhol was right.
MARCIN. I can see why you would love these.
marcin–
fantastic link – THANK YOU!!
Hurricane? My version of “tie down the house” is to pick up all my loose junk laying around the yard, especially whatever can become a projectile. Get the window shutters ready, have supplies for at least a few days, fully charged flashlights, plenty of beer and fresh water. Have a plan to move the vehicle to high ground, if necessary. Monitor the storm’s location and heading. Pray for great photographs. Don’t forget the cats.
John, Katia,
But This are not so iconic pictures like this one: http://www.hendrikkerstens.com/pages/bag.html
Marcin
Thanks for the link. Interesting stuff. Some of it reminds me of one of Leonardo Da Vinci’s scetch book pages where he draws “ugly men”
I love deliberate straightforward portraits like these. There is beauty and depth in the simplicity.
His colour is unfortunately very inconsistent. It has become trendy to do a “cross processed” look, evident in some magazine work. Platon and Annie L have both used this look. Basically a colour cross-over with too-cyan shadows and de-saturation. Almost as annoying as HDR
Apropos nothing at all, I think that was Joel Meyerowitz I saw yesterday. I’ve been thinking about this at length today because my day has been horribly crappy and the problem with a one day weekend is that it does not allow your chickenshit toleration meter to recharge fully, leaving you prey to all sorts of things that shouldnt bug you at all, but now that they have a chance to bug you, are doing just that.
If you ever thought that BURN comments were not heavily followed,
think again. I mentioned on Saturday my gallery show and my blog
stats show that 60 people pressed the link to my project site.
We are in a fishbowl. Just something to ponder.
John G,
thanks for the insights into your “get-ready” process…
ciao
POMARA,
Yes we are. I just mentioned what a crappy mood I’m in and it didnt take AKAKY IRL more than two seconds to say tough shit, guy. Of course, he’d say that anyway, but there’s just something about the alacrity of saying this stuff on BURN and the response you get that is just amazing.
DAVID, All
If you are interested in photography about Poland here some very nice pictures: http://www.lukaszbiederman.com/
This guy try to be next Todd Hido but anyway very interesting way of showing my country, almost as goos as Mark Power’s.
AKAKY,
This guy (minus the ninja wear – or maybe not)?
CP
negatives are like relics to me..
the thin trace of reality linking a perhaps all to brief experience from the past into the present.
in my early 20’s i made a print for my wall from a vintage negative of jimi hendrix, and placing it in the neg carrier appealed to my photographic passion and also to the romantic part of me that loves a good relic…
not of my life in that instance, yet the frame created a bridge for my imagination .. i spent time with a small piece of plastic which spent time with hendrix.. and captured his likeness at the moment it was beared to him.
of course i spent time with the photographer as well, yet description by words can fall short in the imagination :ø)
sometimes there have been times when the equipment has felt like a close friend..
the closest at times infact. fitting like a comforting glove..
the knocks n cracks which it has developed.. the brassing and glue.. bring memories.. they’re like the wrinkles on an experienced face – and in to me the negtive is the heart of the machine.. the soul.
my minds eye knows what has gone before.. a digital file shows me that and, if it’s successful as a photograph, i can feel how i felt when i took it..
holding the negative though.. that relic.. has a special place for me..
the racks of files which seem too cumbersom when moving home are alway the first thing off the truck and into the dry, shaded corner of the house… the quantity of life reflected in their weight perhaps appeals to my ego more than a couple of lightweight bits of technology, slide into a padded bag.
i love so much about digital – the speed.. convenience.. option to photograph cheaper.. oportunity to spend hours rather than days creating prints.
i’d miss the negatives.. the process and the relics.. if i gave up film utterly.
6×6 transparency film.
have to love those neg files.
the end product of photographing may well be the point, yet i think there is nothing wrong with photographers small pleasures along the way.. those pleasures can so much shape the work..
you know? every choice effecting the outcome…subject.. light.. access.. time of life.. format.. equipment..
rangefinder or SLR, anyone ? :ø)
hohoho
on relics..
when i was working in france i spent one morning with some diggers at the 1st world war frontline n.e. of verdun.
it was the longest battle of modern warfare and estimates of the dead seem to range from 250 to 500 000 over many months.
they were digging for small intact medicine bottles around the overgrown rubble of what a vintage map showed as a church at the center of a small village.. now just mound of ivy covered earth and rubble in the middle of a wood.
pulling back the ivy revealed that the woodland floor was a carpet of relics.. military canteens.. wine bottles.. bits of clothing.. animal bones, a boot.. bullets.
what struck me most was a spoon laying on the surface, eaten away with rust yet still bold and shapely as it always had been.
standing at the bottom of the remains of a softly rolling trench in the rain, on a pile of war-waste holding a personal item which fed someone through that misery moved me more than anything.. dragged me back in time like nothing else, for all the monuments, lucid descriptions, photographs and documentaries about that war.
mumble, mumble..
onandon.. could’nt sleep for itching – wil try again now.
d
Charles, I think so, but he looks taller on television. Maybe it’s the ninja suit.
I posted this yesterday but it didn’t come through…
For the ranters, the disillusioned, the nostalgic, the cynics, the pretenders, the owners of scarves and Leica M’s:
http://www.emphas.is/home.html
And please have a nice day…
anyway, if it was him, this is what he got pix of:
http://picasaweb.google.com/akakyakakyevich/Dancer?feat=directlink
Charles – Thanks for the suggestion and, if my fortunes ever turn around again, I very well might give it a try.
David – Indeed, I will follow up with some more wisdom on digi vs. film. I haven’t the time right now, but I will – Jason – I have some response for you, too. Same thing applies as to current time.
Pomara, and those gazing at the fishbowl – hey, you 60 people, come visit my blog:
http://wasillaalaskaby300.squarespace.com
And if you want to know what at least one photographer goes through before he sets out to do a job, don’t miss today’s entry:
http://wasillaalaskaby300.squarespace.com/journal/2010/8/30/he-drinks-his-mothers-milk-the-cross-and-the-rifle-when-the.html
I will be counting, now. I want to see the digital tracks of all 60 of you, just like Pomara promised.
PS – Pomara – one of the hits that you will see coming to you from Burn today is me. I am quite struck by your work. You very skillfully depict a world that strikes me as amazingly genteel.
JOHN VINK..
it did come through the first time and i mentioned it…but happy to see it again..was a bit surprised either nobody read it, or nobody seemed to care..hmmmm….to me the game changer or at least one of them….great thing for all to be thinking about…
DAH
I just saw the Brian Lanker video that he did for the Rich Clarkson reunion…. Shit man, you DID have hair at one time!
Thanks for the email. I appreciate it.
John,
thanks for the link. I have subscribed to their news and shared the link on Facebook (as you did, too)
MR.JOHN VINK,
again Speechless…thanks for the valuable contribution…etcetera,etcetera
AKAKY,AKAKY IRL,
you are AKAKY… you have raised the bar…apropos…!!!
MARCIN,
keep rolling…
FROSTFROG,
MASS audience in your …site (side)
POMARA…dearest POMARA…PAUL…I have your invitation…I hope you will be ready for tonight…
one small correction though…you never say to a civilian…”You make the call.”:)))
You will rock …I will be there…you have been warned:)))
For my BURNIANS… out there in the Universe…when a hurricane is approaching …
DoAsHarvey…get ready to shoot
BUT,BUT,BUT
for the Civilians…please,go down to the Basement…:)))
P.S PANOS…no birds …i-phoning BUT no birds…:)))
LOVE TO ALLLLLL…KATHLEEN FONSECA wake up…I need you…
Keep SHOOTING…thank you
Frostfrog
I love your blog. It gives me a little window into your wonderful life. It also reminds me that I really need to start one myself. I’m just too technically challenged and intimidated to go for it.
If you are inclined, have a peek at my “what I did on my summer holiday” gallery for a little window into my wonderful life.
I relate to people’s honest snaps of their lives. So much more intimate, honest, and more profound and revealing than exotica.
http://www.pbase.com/glafleur/lasqueti_summer_2010&page=all
Hmmm…MR.HARVEY…on a second thought …since we have unfinished
business …maybe,it would be better to DoAsCivilian…find a basement…
If you need something… We are here to help you…
Sending good energy …
to have your pictures amazing…
To have YOU safe and cool… Priceless
Akaky, Joel Meyerowitz is around 72 years old. I have his book Cape Light and was just looking at his photo from back in the day. And figured out he was 72. Was this guy you thought was him at least that old?
CIVILIAN…
you are THE most caring person…i hope you know by now how much i appreciate you being here.. now funny, a basement is where you want to be safe in the high winds of a tornado, but not a hurricane…two totally different types of storms….there is usually a lot of flooding water associated with a hurricane, so a basement is the last place you should want to be…
cheers, hugs, david
GORDON…
you wrote:
“I relate to people’s honest snaps of their lives. So much more intimate, honest, and more profound and revealing than exotica. ” i believe the same thing totally in the first part of your sentence, except just not sure what you mean by “exotica”..isn’t so called “exotica” just someone’s “ordinary life” that happens to be physically and perhaps culturally far away from you? or perhaps you meant something different altogether…???
cheers, david
“Exotica” I remember Freeman Patterson saying that he used to strive to grow the exotic daisies he saw in Namaquland at home in Canada. The lady he stayed with in Namaquland had a patch in her garden where she tried to grow dandelions. :-)
DAH, heard Danielle is a tropical storm but Earl is coming up fast. Looks like a red neck for sure.
My apologies…
My sincere apologies…
There is no excuse…tornado and hurricanes…I should have known
by now…and I am way out of my “territory”…:)))
Oime…what the Greek civilian is talking about …???
Thanks MR.HARVEY…for the tolerance…
Therefore… If basement is not the place to be…then…
BURN IS THE PLACE TO BE…
P.S I couldn’t resist…ok, back to the regular program
LEE,
Don’t worry…it seems that he knows all about hurricanes and storms…
Check above…well prepared
And you…are you there yet???did you see the family???
I LOVE You ALl…and of course…cheers and hugs and drinks…
Dandelion juice…is that right ROSSY???
Out of free wi-fi minutes…
Music please…or some tech talk…GF,Holgas,Leicas…
DAH
By “exotica”, I guess I was refering to the tendancy of some to view places other than where we are, as somehow more interesting and worthy of photographing. You know all the cliches.
The Carolina outer banks is very exotic sounding to me, (as is New York city). I’m intersted in photographs as autobiographical notes. I’m excited to to see what you have done in your latest project, which is much more interesting to me than your take of a foreign place. A window into your private life. I love seeing Frostfrogs beautiful family, and the daily goings on in his life. Audreys photos of her parents and children are still my favourite photos on Burn.
I’m not suggesting that anyone’s photographs of far away places cannot be amazing, insightful, or even profound. However what happens around your kitchen table is of much more interest to me.
Civi, I am in Maui for one more night; leave Tuesday at 9:30 p.m. and arrive next day in Arkansas at 3:15 p.m. Long flight and then have to see if my car battery is still working. I should have undone the cables but got lazy at the last minute. Actually, not lazy so much as didn’t want to deal with mechanical icky stuff.
GORDON…
could not agree more….
CIVILIAN…
Lee Guthrie IS a storm….
You’re doing a story about where you live and now a hurricane is going to roll through? Of course you couldn’t in good conscience wish for such a thing, but I’ll be interested to see how you make the best of it. Be safe? Yep, but not too safe.
DAH …. ground glass / optical ….. yes the leica view finder has a upper hand .. but m sure you have been tempted and tried … not using the viewfinder at all …..ie on both the systems …….
David – Civi: David is right, you are the most caring person. You brought a big smile to me today. Someday, I must meet you in real life. The question is, where? Greece or Alaska? I would prefer that it be exotic Greece, you would probably prefer it be exotic Alaska.
Gordon, thank you. And thanks for sharing the photos from your life. I enjoyed looking at them, seeing the beautiful red-headed lady, the black and white cat and the ferry boat.
Now, David and Jason, as to that debate about digi vs. film:
Earlier in the day when I did not have time to write, I formed my arguments and they were good. You both would have been amazed at their brilliance and you would have said, Damnit, Frostfrog, you are right, of course.
Now, I am too exhausted and brain fried to write them down. If the interest holds, I will write them another day. That interest might have to hold for awhile, because I expect Tuesday to be very busy and if I succeed at my tasks, then Wednesday I will be headed beyond the range of wireless and will be out of touch for awhile.
DAH, John Vink, I followed the link and left my email address for further information. Emphas.is doesn’t go live until early 2011 so people are probably waiting for more information before commenting.
David, like Gordon, I too am excited to to see what you have done in your latest project i.e. OBX. When will we see?
Mike.
Hey DAH – Good luck with your Hurricane! Tape the windows, bury your hard drives, open a bottle of wine and I hope your front yard doesn’t look like this in the morning.
http://glenncampbellspictures.com/blog/mutikamonday/mutika-2/
EVA…
good point…with no electricity , no batt charge….film the only way …..well , the electricity would have to be down for a long long time before i ran out of batteries…but i like the concept anyway…
FROSTFROG…
you have done enough digi explaining Bill….do not worry…i get the expense, the ease, and even the look 90% of the time…after all, i do earn my living as a digital photographer….so, it is really only the archiving which has me flummoxed…and my solution for that one is simple as you know…make archival work prints of the selects…that is exactly the same solution as for film…we just tend not to do it because we do not have to do it as we did with film…
by the way, where are you in Alaska? i keep meaning to ask….i have done a fair amount of work in Alaska both in the banana belt around Juneau, some Anchorage/Fairbanks etc, but mostly the North Slope, Barrow one long winter and spring, Anaktuvik Pass and surrounding territory etc…i certainly do not need to tell you bush pilot stories although even short timers like me have them…well ok one…Anaktuvik Pass…early morn…gotta get to Barrow….20 below zero….spring thaw….Cessna 172 plane engine frozen of course…two extension cords from house with hair dryer attached used to warm up oil pan…then my gaffer tape stretched all over front of cowling air intakes to help warm engine……plane on skis which was a bit unusual……anyway, pilot revs engine…plane will not move…so pilot asks me to get out and push, as he revs full on, to help get plane skis dislodged from ice and please run and jump in my seat after plane gets some forward momentum and is moving down the “runway”…that worked…now, we fly around Anaktuvik Pass twice…land…take gaffer tape off of air intakes because engine has now warmed…nice plan…off to Barrow no problem….the point of this story is that for me it is a story and for the pilot, just another day….
MIKE R…GORDON
my photographs and text on the outer banks is now scheduled to appear in NatGeo in the June 2011 issue…however, these schedules often change for many reasons, including the photographer’s ability to get things done on time…i must be finished with my work here by december in order to make that schedule…of course i will never be finished with my work here, but the december deadline does at least force me to finish at least some segment…right now, it all seems very far away…
GLENN…
doing all of your suggestions of course….and a few more….everybody around here is a bit like me..lazy to do anything much….the current weather makes it hard to imagine that disaster is just around the corner…the satellite map looks like a video game screen….i will go today to get extra water, candles, batteries, food etc….my house does have built in hurricane shutters, so i can close off my windows…but if a cat 4 or 5 hits here directly, not much would survive…the only good news is that my house has been sitting unscathed in this environment for 80 years or so…others built at the same time are long gone to the elements and others just fine….good karma, luck? whatever…i will take whatever….
JASON…
yes, both Warhol and Marshall McLuhan were so so right about all that is happening media wise …they saw it all 50 yrs ago…however, just a wee caveat in general …maybe it has always looked this way…to one degree or another….i think artists and others have always felt compelled to create some kind of order out of the chaos….chaos of one kind or another has probably always looked like it was upon us…folks over 30 have probably always thought things were going to hell….the media and digi revolution and the computers are new but other technologies must have had the same affect prior…i mean look what writing did to Eurasia…we still have not recovered…just take that optimistic prediction by Warhol down to 5 minutes, and i think we might be getting somewhere…
cheers, david
I have no idea how you are approaching your story and I don’t know much about OBX, not even sure what it stands for, but what little I have gathered over the years makes me think that the threat and reality of hurricanes must be an integral part of reality there and perhaps, likewise, the story. I once actually made the mistake of camping at the beach when a tropical storm rolled in. My disdain for television in general and weather forecasts in particular very nearly got me killed. It was alternately an incredibly beautiful and thoroughly terrifying experience.
Gordon:
Earlier you wrote: “I relate to people’s honest snaps of their lives. So much more intimate, honest, and more profound and revealing than exotica.”
Now, while I tend to agree, I’m a bit puzzled about the definition, your definition, of two words, one being ‘snaps’ and one being ‘honest’.
I undertand intimate if and when it comes to photograph the family, but are those pics really more honest? I mean, if we wouldn’t know that the people in Audrey’s essay (to pick up what you referred to) are her parents/kids, would it make a difference, and if yes, why and in what way?
On the other side, are Lisa Wilste’s pictures of the Mennonite familymembers less honest, because they’re not her family?
AKAKY: Okay, I’ll bite. Why did you raise the bar?
AKAKY IRL: Keeps the midgets out. I’m tired of serving beer in shot glasses. What about this guy you thought you saw?
AKAKY: Joel Meyerowitz? What about him?
AKAKY IRL: Yeah, him. Was the guy you saw at least 72?
AKAKY: Yeah, I think so.
AKAKY IRL: Well then, bubba, looks like you got yourself a genuine sighting there.
AKAKY: I’m sorry-why are you serving beer in shot glasses?
AKAKY IRL: Make more money that way.
MW, OBX=Outer Banks of North Carolina
John Vink – I found out about emphas.is a few days ago on Twitter and signed up to be notified when things are up and running! It looks like a great idea!
DAH – Please be safe in this storm! I hope your darkroom stays in place! check the ceiling for light leaks afterwards!
Akaky – mmmmmm beer. – And Joel seems like a really intriguing fellow… where were you when you sighted him?
Civi – Please keep a watch out for David! He gets Reckless.
Vivek! How have you been?
Frostfrog – Mr. Hess,
I’d say – Take a break when you get back! But if you have a well thought out argument, I’d love to talk about it when time is more abundant for you.
eva
I’ve been thinking exactly what you point out, that “honest” and “snaps”, were poor choices of words.
Snaps implies a casual and un-sophisticated approach, which is not really what I was thinking. Neither does honest describe what I was trying to put accross. I was more refering more to the feeling of intimacy that is apparent when photographing those whom we are close to and share our immediate lives with. I cannot imagine Audreys photos without the knowledge that they were her parents.
Lisa’s pictures are beautiful. Part of their power lies in how she has acknowledged the fact that she is an outsider, and alludes to it with the hidden faces, the sideways glances, and the peek around the curtain feeling we get from some of her compositions. It is and honest representation of her role there.
It is fascinating to imagine what a photographer from within the community might come up with.
David AH,
CNN news flash!!!
You are living in a cone of uncertainty
and a realm of possibility.
As per the weather watchers in Atlanta.
A storm of love only.
Wondering how this weekend at the pow wow will end up. Opening ceremony at 5 on Friday. This will all happen in Tahlequah, OK, the seat of the Cherokee Nation. My cousin has proven his lineage due to his mother’s family being on the rolls. He told me an interesting thing about the Indians and being put on the rolls. Maybe someone can fill me in on whether this is true or not. If an Indian put down more than 25% blood quantum on the rolls they could lose whatever assets they had–taken away by the government. So most put down only 25%. Has anyone else heard anything along these lines?
BTW, a new friend googled my name and told me some things he found. So I googled my name and some select Burn comments pop up. Not all but at least 3 that I found. What selection process is used in search engines that make these decisions? Thank goodness all of everyone’s posts don’t pop up when their name is googled but it is really odd that a few make it. Any ideas?
Lee, a quick look at Google returns 165 results using the following search criteria:
site:burnmagazine.org “Lee Guthrie”
It seems that a search result is returned if the page was indexed by Google when: 1) your comment appeared on the default (last) page of an essay/single/dialogue post AND/OR 2) your name appeared under the “Recent Comments” section.
ah. but just googling only brings up 3. So specific search for Burn would make sense.
JASON … doing good …. visiting some friends in north of india at the moment …. back home sometime next week …… looking fwd to seeing ur new work from the voigtlander (hop i spelled tht right) …..
Hey children of Hurricane!
Keep yourself alive!
I hope my friends overseas you are and will be safe, and storm will be an extraordinary view only.
Gordon:
Thanks for your answer, kinda figured what you intended to say with honest, not based on your single comment, but the sum of comments from you.. just not 100% sure..
LEE … site:burnmagazine.org “Lee Guthrie” returns 164 results fr me
I talk a lot it seems. I bet Akaky would have thousands! Giggle And Akaky IRL.
Ok. I understand if you do a straight search for site:burnmagazine.org for any name it would be more productive. However, for the person who has no knowledge of Burn or my activities, and wanted to see what has been reported about a person, me, just plugging my name into Google search might bring up only 3 Burn comments, as happened when I plugged in just my name. Somehow I think it matters but it doesn’t in the long run. The day still goes forward.
Everyone stay safe today. In India, Outer Banks, LA/the Mountain, Detroit, NYC, Calgary, Australia, Alaska, almost time for home in Greece, Kentucky and all others out there on the path…
Lee,
Southeast Kentucky is well, at least :-) Sunny skies and 90 degrees F…
DAH –
I live in Wasilla, hence the title of my blog, but my work takes me into all regions of Alaska. I have done more work in the Arctic, including the communities you mention, than in any other single region – but I have worked everywhere, from the panhandle, the chain, the Yukon and Kuskokwim rivers, the islands of the Bering Sea and even Little Diomede, where you really can look out your living room window and see Russia, two-and-half miles away.
As to bush flying stories, yes, I have plenty, but the worst and most dramatic is the one that destroyed my airplane when I messed up a stripless landing in Mentasta, and cut down some trees down with my wings. Life has never been as good since.
Right now, I am in a hell of a situation because I need to get to Prudhoe Bay and then to Cross Island, hopefully by tomorrow, but I am waiting for my last invoice to be paid and until it is, I don’t have the money for a ticket. My shoulder injury of two years ago just wiped my finances out. It would be so nice to have the kind of resources that National Geographic provides.
Speaking of Arctic Slope, I would still like to send you a copy of my latest issue of Uiñiq. Uiñiq is a magazine that I created in late 1985 and published regularly until 1996. As with just about everything that I do, it was a one-man operation. I did all the photography, writing, layout, prepress and design – and yes, most of my own flying. And as digital came along, I really pushed the envelope. Uiñiq was the first all-digital (I scanned my images from film then) photographic publication in the state.
Since 1996, I have put out a special issue on the average of every two or three years and had one come out not too long ago. I am working on one more and I intend for it to be my last. I want to spend the rest of my career publishing electronically. I just don’t know how to finance it or make it pay. I have no head for business or finance at all – yet I have been a freelance photographer/writer solely for the past 25 years straight and raised a family doing it and have never resorted to commercial work, which I have the skills but not the heart for.
I would like you to see this latest Uiñiq and as you have significant experience in the Arctic, I am certain that you will find it interesting.
I am reluctant to send it to the Magnum address, because I fear it will just disappear and you will never see it. Do you have an address that I could send it to? And have you ever seen my book, Gift of the Whale? If not, I could send it, too.
I haven’t heard any news yet today. I hope the hurricane is not doing too much damage – and none to you.
Thanks for asking.
Jason – will do.
Lee – each tribe has the authority to determine the conditions of its membership and the federal government respects that. For one tribe, the blood quontum might be 1/4, another, 1/64, and once enrolled, the citizen of that tribe has full rights, recognized not only by the tribe but the federal government.
Pomora – you kicked the hell out of me. The link I post brought in just 20 hits, compared to your 60. But 20 hits is good. 60 would have been better, but I can live with 20.
Oh, yes… and one of those 20 hits was Civi, who also left a comment.
One hit from Civi is worth a 100, maybe even a thousand.
Looking at it like that, I did pretty good.
Bill,
I just got lucky. It’s quality not quantity.
Civi,
I saw you. Thanks for not
asking any questions. I hope you
enjoyed your stay at the House O’ Dreams
P
Lee – PS: I just reread your question. Just to be clear, one never loses their right to tribal membership for having a blood quontum higher than the minimum necessary for enrollment, which is what you seem to be asking.
No not lose their membership in the tribe, to somehow lose their assets if they claim to be more than 25%. The tribe takes nothing and they do not lose membership. What he said was the government (federal) could take away whatever you owned if you claimed more than that. Were they even allowed to own anything in this time period? I definitely have some good research to do. Going to the pow wow and for three days in the throes of it. Probably will find out answer quickly.
Lee – No, no way. That is absurd. No truth in it whatsoever.
I thought it sounded really odd. Even for our government. Thanks.
FROSTFROG…
i would love to see your magazine…and i will start checking out your blog….and we can trade books…i do not know Gift of the Whale, but i would have come to your lecture had i been in nyc at the time….the Magnum address is a good one (151 West 25th..5th floor ..NYC 10001)…the best, the safest…i am not sure what you are imagining in our ny office, but we only have approximately 25 staff working for i think the 12 or so member photographers who are based in new york who depend on our staff to do things right for us….handling our mail and general shipping in and out of very important documents, prints, equipment etc, is taken very very seriously…if you ship anything to me at magnum either i will pick it up, it will be hand delivered to my loft, or it will be sent fedex to my carolina home address…all depending on my travel of which the staff keeps a close eye …anyway, your magazine and your book would be handled with great care i assure you….many thanks Bill
cheers, david
p.s. yes, indeed it is good to have Natgeo expenses , funding etc. on certain kinds of projects…and when flying around Alaska, yes it was good to have those funds available to make transportation etc not a life factor nor expense…however, most of my work is either self financed or i scramble around looking for creative ways to get things done…
you wrote: “I want to spend the rest of my career publishing electronically. I just don’t know how to finance it or make it pay. I have no head for business or finance at all – yet I have been a freelance photographer/writer solely for the past 25 years straight and raised a family doing it and have never resorted to commercial work, which I have the skills but not the heart for.”
pretty close to what i would say about myself….not totally because i do not want to stop shooting and i have done a modicum of commercial work which i actually have enjoyed immensely when it comes my way…but the gist of it parallels my thinking and experience all the way…
POMARA…
you wrote to me: “You are living in a cone of uncertainty
and a realm of possibility.” no kidding….smiling…but, i ask you, is there any other way??
Thanks, David. I will put in the mail and send it to the Magnum address.
DAH: “but we only have approximately 25 staff working for i think the 12 or so member photographers who are based in new york”
I am sure those 25 staff work EQUALLY for all the other member photographers at Magnum. Aren’t they ;-)
David,
Agreed…really smiling.
JOHN VINK…
of course John …. i was oversimplifying staff duties etc for the sake of brevity and this audience and only really referring to the care they would take for our new york member mail etc… however, i doubt much of your mail comes to our office….but, if it did, then we sure as hell would take good care of it….. :) please visit…..i would love to see you in new york amigo….you of course have a place to stay always at the Burn Hotel…
Hi all,
here is a great and informative interview with Alec Soth:
http://blogs.walkerart.org/visualarts/2010/08/31/dismantling-my-career-a-conversation-with-alec-soth/
Enjoy. Sorry I cannot be around so much lately, but work is like crazy at present. In a hectic way.
Btw, Dominik Dunsch and I went to a workshop about “Photobooks” held by Peter Bialobrzeski and Andreas Herzau last weekend in a far away corner of Germany. It focussed on how to deal with publishers here in this country (how to prepare, how to approach and a bit about the math of it all). It was very entertaining, because Andreas Herzau and Peter Bialobrzeski not only are longtime friends but also have very different characters and approaches to certain things like the level-of-detail of a dummy book. While Andreas’ dummies appear to be a 1:1 copy of the final book, Peter seems to focus merely on the sequence by inserting small prints into a random empty album without text nor anything. Two extremes showing what is possible if the content is right.
They interacted beautifully as a team, and it has been a long time since I have had that much fun. My cheeks are still hurting from laughing too much. But I am sure that will pass while I work on the assignment I have on my table now. :o)
Best to all and until soon again.
DAH
hurricane?
Pls take care!
With the never ending debate on weather to Leica or not to Leica, I thought you might enjoy this option.
http://leicarumors.com/2010/08/25/iphone-4-turns-into-a-leica-m9.aspx/#more-5620
Along the lines of Mr. Vink’s post regarding the crowd-source funded Emphas.is, the Sochi Project (via BJP):
http://www.bjp-online.com/british-journal-of-photography/report/1730484/do
I hate cones of uncertainty. If I take a bite out of a cone, I want to know right away whether its chocolate or vanilla, preferably the former, with chocolate syrup and chocolate sprinkles on top. Yes, I am a choc addict, although I don’t indulge the habit as much these days as I used to.
yeap,MR.VINK…the key for the BURN Hotel is under the third pot…cactus …
and don’t forget …the fridge is full of ice…:)))
FROSTFROG,MR.BILL,
see…I am traveling…BUT I am the MASS audience…
20 hits plus 1,000.000.000…don’t worry…we follow you:)))
THANKS for your vision
POMARA,
when you are ready…please share with all BURNIANS…what I have seen …
YOU definitely have a VISION…
and the House O’Dreams…oime…
now,it’s my turn…see you in Greece…House O’Greco is on me
Hugs,mate
AKAKY…choc addict…I am a chick addict (chickens):)))although I don’t indulge the habit as much these days as I used to.
JASON,
I promise…:))) reckless is not in our agenda:)))
BURNIANS…I love you alllll…keep rolling…safe travels,safe stays…unsafe thinking
http://wasillaalaskaby300.squarespace.com/
FROSTFROG…!!!
http://www.photomara.com/
POMARA…!!!
you are so many…I can keep going forever…BUT my free wi-fi…minutes…
Hurri-cane…go away
don’t approach the house of BURN
say hello BUT don’t stay
let DAH take some pictures today
oime…that’s all I have to say
ok,I am out…LOVE you alll
DAH and ALL…
Just stopping in for a quick HI.
I am so busy shooting, editing, blog posting and so forth these days that I don’t have time to comment.
A good reason for not being here!
DAH I am “collecting” work to show you. I have still not finished editing India and yet I’m already getting ready to return in November. Which brings me to my question/comment…
I see above you mention having your Outer Banks work published in June 2011. I realize this has much to do with the “magazine world” and not just your personal schedule but I’ve been thinking lately (and am getting ready to do a blog post on the subject) that for many “emerging” photographers there is this big RUSH to get work out…one week after returning from a trip some photographers already have a gallery on their website, a blog post, a podcast, a self published book, hundreds of tweets and facebook posts about it, etc…whereas the work of established photographers sometimes does not get shown for years. I’m wondering what the rush is for some of us? (Myself not included.)
In the past I’ve felt guilty about not rushing to get work out like many of my friends but I’m now seeing the value in waiting. We all work at our own pace obviously. I’m finally honoring my process rather than trying to conform!
For example…I’m thinking about my time at the Kumbh Mela in February. Every day I see more and more work from fellow photographers. I’ve posted some of my own and yet I’ve seen only one or two images so far from Steve McCurry who was also there. Another example is DAH’s family project. In the beginning we saw some (amazing) work but as far as I know it’s been a long time since any of that work has been shown.
I don’t know if there’s a question here or not other than what’s the big hurry for everyone to show new work and what are the reasons (if any) for taking one’s time in showing work. This topic interests me…if anyone has anything to share I’d like to hear it. Thanks!
DAH,
As I’m sure you know better than me, you have been upgraded from “Hurricane Watch” to “Hurricane Warning” (which means, OK folks, fasten your seatbelts!)… and it looks like it will be Thursday evening to Friday morning when the brunt of the storm hits your area. Needless to say, a ‘rush’…
Yesterday (as Gordon L. can also attest, I’m sure) our first fall storm blew through our corner of the Pacific Northwest… lots of wind and rain. I thought of you as I watched the tree limbs bent horizontal in the wind and the rain slashing down. We don’t get hurricanes here but many of our fall and winter storms from the North Pacific approach “Tropical Storm” intensity, with sustained winds of 45 mph or more and gusts to 65 mph and above (back some years we even got occasional gusts to 90, but I can’t remember it happening in the last several years). Later in the fall these storms will be lined up one after the other all the way from Hawaii to here (thus the name “pineapple express”) and they will hit at roughly 16 hour to 24 hour intervals for days at a time, or even weeks. But this next few days, after the first storm has emphatically told us that summer is now over, it looks like we will get a reprieve and a Labor Day weekend of pretty good weather for a last fling. I’m off to rendezvous with a long-lost buddy from my wild youth in Idaho who is now a rescue vessel captain working northern Puget Sound out of Port Townsend, and I’m praying I don’t embarass myself by getting seasick… I’ve spent a lot of time on the water over the years in boats of all sizes, from sea kayaks and dorys to freighters and sea-going ferries, been in a number of typhoons at sea in Asia, and sometimes I am fine and love it, sometimes I confess I get really sick, and there’s no telling ahead of time which it will be. It all depends on the rhythm of the chop or swell in relation to the size of the boat and the angle of the roll.
Anyway, despite your justifiable worries about your home, I’m sure you’ll have fun in this hurricane and get an adrenaline rush… so enjoy it, and I hope all goes well.
Cheers,
Got ur shirt? http://www.flickr.com/photos/tfelix/4946013737/
Charles Peterson…. Just borrowed “WHO SHOT ROCK’N’ROLL” from the library, and fell upon your “MOSH PIT” image. One of the best, if not the best in the book (and all the great rock photographers are in that book). I wonder if you think it would have also been a great shot in color, or maybe too woodstocky.
Anyway, RESPECT, Charles! this one may not seem so, as a thumbnail, but definitely more than the sum of its parts (and there are a lot of in there!), which great photography is all about:
http://knopf.knopfdoubleday.com/marketing/buckland/moshpit_web.jpg
CATHY…
well, well, look who is back in town..nice to hear from you…welcome back….you are one of my very earliest bloggers…you and Marcin….to add to your text, no, i never felt any rush to publish ever..i always thought this was a mistake so many photographers tend to make…i guess it is natural and the instant gratification gene is in all of us, but once you have resisted the temptation of the “rush” then you can take your time and really see how the work wears or lives…so i think you have the right attitude on this…by the way, the American Family work was just exhibited in the spring in Madrid and is now somewhere else in Spain and will move around a bit…however, i am still shooting on it as well..that is one work in progress which has no ending anyway….so a part, the whole, no diff….anyway, as always, i look forward to your latest work
cheers, david
ALL,
I was on the local evening news tonight, with a profile piece on the rock photography camp I taught this summer. I hate watching/hearing myself but thought you might all enjoy it. :) It was a great experience teaching these kids and I guess I will be doing it again next year.
Best,
Charles
http://www.king5.com/video?id=102010408&sec=549122
That’s pretty damn cool Charles! :-)
Charles
cool! :)
Charles, hi, cool!! Thanks for sharing, nice!
Hey Charles
Very cool.
Looks like you, DAH and myself all part our hair the same way.
GORDON,
Now that makes me smile! :)
CP
Jeez Charles, I had a mental picture of you looking like Kurt Cobain. Now I see you’re more the Michael Stipe type. Anyway, looks like a great thing to do. Congrats. And that was a pretty well shot and edited piece for local news. That producer might go places.
Charles…super gongrats
“photography is about…. Photography”. Yep! :-)
Yes, congrats, and bravo, it’s not often that photography, the idea of, makes it in the News.
BUMP!
“”””what is most important for you as a viewer: the story or the ability to tell it ?””””
This one has been gnawing away at me for a while.
You see from where I stand its neither of the above.
It always has to be the power of the image(s).
Dont care about the story.
Dont care about the who what why or when.
When I look at fashion work I dont give a fig what its selling…just whether the image holds up unsupported.
when I look at documentary work… I dont care at all about the story behind the imagery,just whether the images hit that spot that makes you go WOW!
Music work just the same. There are killer shots I love from the fifties/sixties where I have no clue who the artist is.(nor care)..and yet the pictures fly.
Salgado, McCullen, Griffiths…can look at their work all day long without EVER needing to know the whatwherewhenhow of them.
I believe the best of images are entities in themselves. They are strong enough to have their own gravity field.
Whether this was ever intentional on the part of the photographer is not a particular concern either.
The ownership of an image is always with the viewer at the moment of viewing. And therefore the right to interpret it as they wish, with or without supporting materials/information.
So I would like to add a third category to what is important (to some)…The Image as a stand alone ‘whole’.
A minority postion I am sure, but surely not a unique one.(and just a position, not a solid fact)
As photographers we are surely engaged in storytelling for the most part…but can the image itself not be the story, with a new twist in the telling for every new viewer?
Seperate from the surrounding scaffold of words and facts and ‘concrete’ information?
I would say that it can, and does, at least for me.
interested if i stand alone here :)
john
JOHNG…amazing standing point…!!!
If you don’t wanna stand alone though…
I can copy and paste …you…
We are All in the …letter to friends…:))))))
John, I’m almost with you. I posted this under Dany’s essay
“Danny’s photographs are a good example of how a photograph can deliver information and at the same time transcend the message and become an object in its own right. When this happens you catch yourself thinking “wow, great photograph!” and then realise that the great photograph (in terms of lighting, composition etc.) depicts horror or despair. It’s quite unsettling but reinforces the power of the message.
I really want as much information as possible … “Input! Input! … but agree that a photograph can have a life of it’s own, I’m thinking of the photograph by Philip Jones Griffiths showing a Viet-Cong soldier in Vietnam who had been fighting for (as I remember) days with a bowl tied to his burst abdomen after being wounded. Such a wound induces thirst but one marine says that the soldier can drink paddy water. Another says that anyone who can fight with such a wound can drink out of my canteen and I’d be proud of it. The scene was copied in the film Apocalypse Now but, as Marlon Brando goes to give the man a drink someone shouts “Surf’s Up!” and he turns, spilling the water! You know the scene.
Another example is the photograph of the traumatised marine used as backdrop in some recent Wikileaks announcements. Taken by Don McCullin in Vietnam, it is now being used to illustrate the effect of war, but the war being debated is Afghanistan; whereas I know that the photograph comes from Vietnam, but many T.V. viewers won’t. So information is important to me as it expands my understanding but, as historical documents, I’d bet that the photographs have a longer life that the words associated with them.
Mike.
John G:
agree completely……
the image IS the story…period….
just as the word IS the story…
as much as i try to write about the pictures/stories here, in the end, the images are what matter….my own photographic work is defined by that too…
the only disagreement i have is that, for me, the SINGLE picture (in the context of a ‘story’) is NOT enough for me….i don’t give a rat’s arse (in my own work) if every photograph is good…i string pictures together (some, i trust, good, some not) to make one version of one picture: that is the story’s picture…
when i published Bones here i think it was 68 pictures…maybe 3 or 4 interesting photographs, but for me it was their cumulative bond that made up 1 visual picture…the story…well, that always was something private and confused/angered/bored a lot of commentators, and that is ok…
i do not want photographs to illustrate a story….
i want the pictures TO BE the story….whatever that story means (or does not) to the viewer
because ALL STORIES ARE THE SAME STORY….
just as all our lives’ stories are the same stories, only the details are particular….
and they all end the same, no matter the detail…
no getting around that…
John,
I stand with you up to a point.
When I first look at any given picture, my initial reaction is just like yours.
It either works on its own, or it doesn’t.
But (and this is a big but) when I learn background information about the conditions under which the picture was created, the photographer’s intentions, or when I get to see more work of the same photographer or of the same subject matter, this information does in fact alter (even if a tiny bit) my first reaction to the work.
If all stories are the same stories, then it seems to me that we can save ourselves a lot of time and effort by just reading the dictionary from beginning to end. That way we’ve read all the stories before they turn into stories and so we can go spend our time doing something productive, like watching nature documentaries on Animal Planet or do an in-depth and scholarly analysis of Hungarian porn sites. And why are we back to this thread, I wonder?