Burn Magazine has a new voice for Alejandra Martinez Moreno, a well-known online casino player. As it moves forward with the intention of continuing the legacy of founder David Aan Harvey, which began in 2008, Burn Magazine will also be supported by the newly created Burn Foundation, also read
Six Florida Destinations You’d Love To Place A Mobile Wager… Once Sports Betting Is Legal Again. as soon as Sports betting will become legal again. We plan to maintain current grantmaking while expanding the continuing education, publication and outreach efforts that many online casino players support.
“oh, where is the other?” …this thought initiates my consciousness when viewing this piece… where is the other hand, I wonder…where is the other person, whose presence is now beyond us, having vacated this time, this space, this frame… is the one who is present actually “present” … as in having presence of mind, or does he/she sleep, drowning reality in dreams…and nightmares? The sexless, faceless one offers us a hand for viewing, but doesn’t offer us a hand in knowing anything about the person that it’s attached to… the offering is one of ambiguity…an androgynous allowance for us on which to speculate… Is this the point? Is there depression? A bedside left vacant after a one night night stand? A drunken stupor… why are the beds so close together, but not together? Were they rocked apart by a savage calling, or drawn close because of concern?
In all of this speculation, I find this image to be successful… an image that takes you beyond the immediate to speculate as to the circumstance makes an interesting piece… what places does it bring you to? How does it intrigue your mind?
Successfully thought provoking photograph. It keeps asking me “who took this photo?”.
cheers.
Michal and Carrie:
WOW! i couldn’t possibly add a thing to what Carrie said so i’ll just say to Michal,
“what she said!”
best:
kat~
super, bardzo fajne. Subtelna estetyka. Takie lubie.
pozdr
A photograph is not supposed to give any answers but to ask questions.
This is how the viewer gets involved and becomes part of the creative process which is always threefold.
The photographer, the subject, and the viewer.
I think this photograph succeeds in that.
Id channel Jim Powers but whats the use? I really like this. Intimate, mysterious.
They are lovers, this arm, and the arm no longer there, camaraderie of bedspace, one can’t help but be intimate with the person one sleeps beside. Only his partner has left, back to his family and loved ones, or collapsed mortgage or wild nightlife. They remain together until the arm begins to scratch at some place of morning necessity.
I think the other arm may be involved in firing the shutter. No?
Besides, these are single beds.
A very cozy picture, this.
When I look at it I sense an aroma of coffee and I anticipate the weekend edition of the newspaper.
Maybe I’m paying too much attention to the empty bed.
Very intimate. Well, except for that guy with the camera standing at the foot of the bed. Lovers with cameras are as dangerous as cows with guns.
The double beds do add some ambiguity to the photo. The vignetting keeps it from looking clinical but the highlights are blown out (at least on my monitor), which bothers me.
It could be your monitor Jim, everything seems fine on mine.
I like the picture, it can suggest many stories.
It could be. The monitor on this computer is calibrated for my Epson 3800 and does odd things to sRGB web photos at times.
I agree, I like the ambiguity.
My monitor is worthless, a $70 affair with amazon, which is hooked up to my MacBook. The MacBook screen however shows blown highlights on the tips of the bed sheets. Neither are CC accurately.
They look blown on both my montors. they are identical and hardware calibrated, but that dont really mean much. The changing of color spaces, the uploaded file, the different behaviours of browsers etc.. I dont think its anything other than academic to comment on the possible tech issues of a picture until it is seen in the flesh. As an actual print.
with regards what i can see here though I find it hard to engage with. A popular study is the unmade bed. Now with added hand. Questions do arise, so thats good.But i am probably to ‘blunt’ to spend the time with work such as this. I can live with that and im sure there are as many out there who will appreciate exactly the things that i fail to. Thats the beauty of all this. SHOOT EVERYTHING.
@John, CC is always going to be a moving target, I agree it doesn’t mean much, because I can still enjoy the image. I wasn’t making a comment on the image however, just the state of our monitors.
i love this shit. simple. mysterious. quiet.
I find images with limited colour palettes very appealing.
i like this for the differing symmetry.. one bed empty and one bed hinted at being full.. to me it is a hotel room.. the unconscious arm reaching for the absent partner unknowing..
i think hotel room because of the plainness of it and the two single beds.. that´s just me.
so i do like it.. as with john though my computer screen is showing flaws.. colour cast.. again.. could be my monitor.
cheers
david
I’m new here, but lurking for a while. I feel a little like that guy at the party who’s desperate to break into the conversation but can’t find the lull. I mean that as a good thing, the conversations here are ones worth joining.
It’s the contrasts in this image that work for me. As Carrie said, Where’s the other? I love that. I love the presence of the absence here. One bed full, one empty. One occupant asleep, one awake. I’d go so far to say one bed alive, one bed dead, but I can’t make up my mind which is which.
CC and highlights don’t bother me, too distracted by the content for now and that by my way of thinking is a powerful credit to Michal. I’m also not distracted by the technique or the feeling of artful cleverness which I see in so much photography these days. They make me want to love the image if only I could get past the feeling that the photographer is smugly waiting for me to love it, to appreciate the irony or the cleverness. There i said it. Anyways, this doesn’t do that for me.
Thanks Michal. And to the rest of you for having these conversations. Your love for the craft is obvious.
if only I could get past the feeling that the photographer is smugly waiting for me to love it, to appreciate the irony or the cleverness.
________________
that made me laugh david..
it is in a sense a very commercial photograph as well as an artfully created one for me.. context of use could easily be an advert for a hotel / coffee / beds and the minds behind it could easily extend to a team of richly paid ´creatives´..
for clarity i only mentioned the colour balance as i think in this instance, on this photo, it might prevent me from buying it.
if i had any money.
or space on the walls.
:ø)
david
WARNING: PIXEL PEEPER COMMENTS
for us pixel peepers, I looked at the photo in photoshop to see the rgb numbers. The whitest of the highlights are about 254 254 254, in a very small area, with most adjacent areas 250 250 250 or thereabouts. Neutral, and just about perfect for my Epson 7600 which will hold detail in white to about rgb253.
RGB numbers elswhere show there is a definite green cast, perhaps a result of coloured walls or more likely a slight cross-over problem in post processing. The colour can be mostly corrected with curves, however the burned in areas then shift red/magenta, most likely a result of burning in normal mode rather than luminosity mode.
Sorry for the techie stuff, however we cannot ignore craft.
Techie stuff aside. I like the photograph. A nice, gentle little photograph, that asks questions, lets you make up your own stories, and captures a moment and feeling familiar to most of us.
Cheers
Gordon L.
PS
The photo looks great converted to black and white.
[geek] love it gorden [/geek]
don.. gor dOn
michal, this is beautiful. this is why most of the teachers say “turn around” the picture behind you is the one to take.
carrie, ohh carrie. dont we love burn? thanks for your questions. left me gasping, unable to think.
gordon. All geeks and pixel peepers.
You had to go there didnt you. :))
Now ive pulled my meters out and i have a definite 100% 255 across the board on the tip of the bedsheet, with a 98.9 – 99.2% around these areas. For print i would compress the output range from 10-245(ish) in rgb1998 so as not to have paper white or glazed blacks (unless that was the desired effect, obviously).
Damm you man :)
John
John
Depends what you are printing on, and with,(printing with your numbers on my printer would result in blocked shadows and greyed wimpy highlights.) and of course wether an image is intended for printing at all. rgb1998 looks grim on the web. Anyway, sorry for the blah blah blah.
I know this isn’t a tech forum. However I feel strongly that craft has to be discussed here when appropriate.
Photography is a technical craft (and it is a craft ladies and gents). How effective an image is, is the sum of a lot of factors, craft being one of them. The tighter your photo-chops, the more effective your communication.
OK, I’ll stop now
Cheers
Geeky Gord
laughing..
it does look great in black and white, as mentioned :ø9
GIVE ME A BREAK!!! Not so much about the photo, it’s basic and fine for art’s sake. But the comments here, I mean come on? This might as well been a Stieglitz masterpiece… So much fluff is put to all of this. Before I start to sound too self righteous, I will say there is some outstanding work here, however, most of what I have seen on BURN is O.K. at best… Which photos will actually stand up over time and WHY is what makes photography important. The days of DAH’s, WAA’s and SM’s are long gone along with National Geographic. So are the days of Bressons, Capa’s and Salgados with Magnum… Not to mention, soon so will be any great would be photojournalist’s with the disappearing newspaper industry. There are photographers out there who’s work will have a meaningful impact on photography in the future and I believe they are few and far between. Photography has a massive problem of being massively abundant and as a result cheap especially with the digital age. Unfortunately, as an art form that is more or less how it has been viewed historically and will continue to be viewed so long as it’s treated that way by it’s practitioners…
I appreciate Burn as a showcase for photography but that’s about it because I don’t believe there is enough brutal honesty here.
How bout everyone stop kissing DAH’s ass and instead try to find a copy of “Photographers on Photography”. Anyone who reads that book should come away with a revived idea of what photography is really all about or should be for that matter..
Call me bitter, but that’s just my opinionated honest opinion….
Now go ahead and pounce!!!
Provocating… evocating…
I love the separate beds,
yet, the feeling of togetherness..
the flesh of the hand,
brings so much life to this image…
I like crumpled sheets photographed,
and the hand adds such a wonderful human element..
I wanna snuggle under the covers..
**
Hey Ross
Welcome to the discussion.
You raise a couple of important questions.
I’m not sure why you are feeling so bitter, or why all this matters at all to you. Perhaps you are feeling un-appreciated or having a hard time making a buck these days. It certainly is getting harder to make a buck.
Yes photography is “massivly abundant” out there, which certainly makes it harder to stand out from the crowd. Spending a little time cruising around the internet visiting photo sites will uncover some amazing work. I’m astounded at what is out there. I wonder how many of the old master types you mentioned would stand out in the current invironment.
Photography is undergoing a huge surge in popularity due to the digital revolution, much bigger than the last surge in the sixties when all those 35mm slrs became the rage. The cameras now are smarter than we are. Myself and lots of other pros I know often shoot with our cameras set to program mode (P for professional) It is no longer a minor miracle that the photo “turns out”. People used to hire us just because we had big fancy cameras, and knew how to fiddle all them dials, and our pictures always turned out. Now, with a $500 dslr, any novice can take sharp, well exposed photos in almost any situation.
So I’m not really getting your problem here Ross. There are too many photographers out there now? If so, is this increasing the level of visual literacy, or dragging it down? Did you like it better when it was a smaller club, confined to people who had the money to continually feed film into their cameras, knew how to use a light meter, fiddle them dials, and knew their way around a darkroom?
Personally, I like what is going on. The work I’m seeing out there is amazing. I’m delighted to see so many people getting into photography. Some of my best customers are photo-keeners who appreciate what I do more as a result. It keeps me sharp. My stuff still has to be better than theirs. Yuh just gotta adapt.
I’d love to hear more of your perspective.
Cheers
Gordon L.
So out of curiousity, Ross, we’re defining what photography is all about by a book written almost 60 years ago? Have things not changed since then, is this art/craft/medium not somewhat organic? Furthermore, is the “fluff” not legitimate. Are Carrie’s thoughts, my thoughts, not legitimate reactions to the image? Or do we need to read Photographers On Photography before our reactions can be legitimized? I’m new here, but it seems like the discussions that go on are pretty open and passionate – I like that. So in as much as your bitterness seems to have a place here, why not the reactions of those who simply LIKE this image? Or does art/expression require pretense? Is not one of the things most celebrated about photography the essential democratic nature of it? I’m not kissing DAH’s ass or anyone elses – unless they produce something that moves me, makes me see the world a little differently; then I’ll at least thank them for doing so, if not outright kiss them – ass or otherwise.
Cheer up, man. Plenty of room for you not to resonate with an image without it meaning those of us that do are remedial.
Often after my outbursts I feel put in my place, as has been done here, more or less…
1st, Yes Gordon, I feel unappreciated. I’m not sure why, most people tell me how talented I am and that they love my work. I can’t tell you how many time I have been asked, why aren’t you shooting for National Geographic? The problem is no doubt my own ego. However, I, as I’m sure many others have too, I have worked so long and so hard with this huge goal of being a Nat Geo. photographer. I have no idea why I put them on such a pedestal? Actually, Yes I do… For a long time Nat Geo represented the pinnacle of photography, at least in my time. I have been close on several occasions only to be told, in so many words that I’m not good enough. Well, I’ve been doing this long enough to know that’s simply not true… For a long time shooting for Geo was simply political, actually still is but Nat Geo is far from what it used to be so I actually don’t care about that anymore… And, Yes… There is a lot of good work out there it just seems so important nowadays to be validated… and YES, as I hate to admit it, I WANT THAT too.
As for the money, I have been able to make a good living with photography with very little effort. So just for the record that has nothing to do with it.
DAVID…. OK your right, you are why I feel put in my place. I didn’t intend to insinuate that people’s feelings about an image didn’t matter. Of course they do… I just think I’m better and know more than everyone else..
Lastly, no matter when that book was written. I do still feel like it should be the photographers bible. Have you read it?
LOL – Don’t we all.
I haven’t read P.O.P but your comment sent me scurrying to Amazon to find a copy – I’ll read it the moment it arrives. I wasn’t implying at all that the book was irrelevant because of it’s age, just that there has to more to it than that.
I have to tell you Ross, your honesty and, uh, contrition, are rare online. Kudos to you for coming back to the discussion and ‘fessing up – hard not to have a great deal of respect for a guy who’s that transparent.
David
POP is waaaaayy out of print and on waiting lists in vintage book store around NYC… I know its copyright infringement, but when I return home from my travels if you keep in touch. Ill copy it and send it to you… Its that important….
Ross – let’s chat by email – info@pixelatedimage.com – perhaps I could borrow the book by way of copy, then return it by way of shredder. I can’t seem to get a copy here for less than $200.
David
Thanks for the notes… Im traveling right now.. check this out http://web.me.com/ragtraveler I won’t make it all the way around because of the economy and my sponsors but I will for sure send you my book as a lender when I get back if you keep in touch. However, I must tell you, if you don’t return it I will have to hunt you down….
Best
Ross
Never wanted to be a NatGeo shooter. Those guys work so damn hard. I always think of the video of Nick Nichols sitting in some forbidden swamp with flies so think he couldn’t close the back of his camera, while pointing out that very few photographers are willing to make the sacrifices it takes to be a NatGeo photographer. No kidding!
think = thick
Jim
I know that exact scene….. For the longest time I woulda said give it too me at any cost. Now, well, as long as I have a nice hotel a few beers and a hot shower after, I might still try to tackle that..
All…
just to lighten up the “heavy” atmosphere in this room…
with a little funny link.. ( cupid wannabees and more… )… inspired by Rafal’s work and “Sabine”
of course…
DARK KIDS on the progress…
take a look…
http://picasaweb.google.com/innerspacecowpanos/EveningAtGRANDMAS?authkey=Gv1sRgCMX7hayQvffIqAE#slideshow
@gordon lafleur
“Myself and lots of other pros I know often shoot with our cameras set to program mode (P for professional)”
it shows.
i guess i should follow up a snide remark (apologies, spur of the moment. i would edit it, but hey, you can’t on here…) with something a wee bit more substantial.
I don’t know any pro’s (or any of my non-pro photographer friends) who shoot using “P” on their camera. Sorry to get all technical, but why would you let a machine take full control of your exposures for you?
Is it so that your photographs can look like the photographs of every other “dude with a DSLR”?
@ ben – I’m left wondering the same thing. Set to P a camera can determine the “correct” exposure and…nope, that’s pretty much it. Aesthetic decisions? Not so much. I have yet to meet a working pro who would cop to using Program mode.
@ panos – thanks for the levity.
ROSS GORDON…
my oh my, what is your problem?? i do recall looking at your work and talking to you on the phone about it and taking my time to make some suggestions to you…it seems a little strange that you would come out blasting about photographers here KMA …you obviously have not read much of the spirited often disagreeing discussion that goes on here…it seems that most readers do like this particular picture and are saying so , but how in the world is that KMA and to what end anyway?? and if you do not like this picture why do you not write about that instead of going off on a diatribe about your career which has not quite taken off…c’mon Ross…
in your drive to achieve something at Natgeo you have somehow equated your work with what you see there…better take a harder look….i recommend quite seriously photographers all the time to shoot for Natgeo, but you would not be one of them..at least not yet…i do see what you are trying to do in Ecuador with the cowboy culture and i do see some potential you may have, but you still have a long way to go my friend..and in my judgment you did not even have any picture submitted for BURN that i could run…and i was looking hard based on our phone chat…..
not every picture published on BURN , with the daily updates, is going to be an all time icon to last forever in the categories with the photographers you mentioned….i do not search the world of photography for the pictures published here , but from the pool of submissions of the readers here…so what is represented are the best works of the readers of BURN today…now…but, somebody here IS going to do something special…some are off to a very good start….and when i show the best of BURN at Look3 in June, i think the audience will be quite surprised at all the very good work that has been published here in the last few months…
you also have facts wrong at both Natgeo and Magnum…again, better take a closer look… and what you think you know, you clearly do not know…there are a lot of bitter young photographers out there who become bitter because they totally overestimate their own ability and then blame everyone and everything in the business because they just have not “made it” yet…i do hope you will not become one of these photographers…
i do look forward to seeing more of your work from South America…if you stick with it and go for the more visual side of things, as per our conversation, then you may just be able to pull it all together…i will work with you, as promised, to this end…
cheers, david
JIM…
my son Bryan shot that TV footage of Nick with the flies…his first film when he was in the Ndoki jungle for 4 months as one of Nick’s assistants (ended up writing and editing the film for TV as well)…Bryan is at this very moment shooting in Afghanistan on a film….both of my sons, Bryan and Erin, grew up traveling the globe with me on assignments…so they got pretty good at dealing with life outside of suburbia….
cheers, david
Ben
You clearly feel threatened by the suggestion that great photos can happen on “P” without your divine and inspired guidance.
Look, I’ve been taking photographs for longer than you’ve been alive. I learned photography with a 4×5 Calumet view camera. I learned how to do multiple flash location set-ups using wired togsether Graflex flash guns and 5b flashbulbs, and we figured out exposure and light ratios using guide numbers, none o’ them fancy flash meters then. I’ve taught portrait photography and lighting theory on a college level for many years. I had my own colour lab for years and am the best black and white printer I know. I know what I’m doing. I likely know more technical shit than many of you ever will.
However to reject the technology available to us now is just plain stupid. Reminds me of the photogs who predicted the end of the world as we know it when built in light meters arrived.
If you havn’t tried “P” M’boy, you may be missing something
Actually, none of the stuff you would have seen on my website was taken on “P”. When I”m doing formal type portraits, I’m on manual.
However much of my personal work is shot on “P”. Most of it is shot with a Fuji f30 point and shoot, or a Canon Rebel. And for quick spontaneous shooting, “P” is way smarter than you or me, certainly faster, and instantly changable if I want more or less exposure.
“Purists” make me crazy. Get over it.
Gordon L.
.
DAH
Wow looks like I offended you which wasn’t my intention. However, I have never been put quite so harshly in my place… I suppose I now know where I stand as a mediocre photographer. I’m sorry for my participation on the BURN forum… I’ll back off…
P.S. what facts did I have wrong?
ROSS…
quite the contrary…i was not offended….you were being honest …i responded in kind…isn’t that fair enough???
your comments were provocative enough to warrant a response from me…i think anyone can see that….but, i ended my text with a clear invitation to work with you in the future….
now Ross, i spent time with you already as per your request..yes??..and i was prepared to spend more time based on your potential…i did not call you mediocre…i said you were not there yet…do you not think that mentioning the goals you have would allow for honest critique?? do you not think that any and all of the photographers you mentioned are very honest and forthcoming with often “harsh” critique with each other?? and the goals to which you aspire would automatically set you up for a very honest appraisal which is what you told me on the phone you wanted?? there is not one student i have ever had at one of my workshops or any emerging photographer i see who does not receive as honest a critique as i gave you…ask around….
if you want to be all that you can be, then you just shake off the dust right now , get back on your horse and you prove me wrong….simple…please go do it….you can…
cheers, peace… david
Ross…DAH is like a proud daddy with this site, his “youngsters” (no matter how old), their achievements and their voices and when someone picks on them he gets prickly. Maybe he slapped your wrist and maybe it was sort of bad timing since you were already offering your mea culpas but read what he said at the end.he wants to work with you. What more could you ask? So don’t go away mad, don’t go away at all. Just suck this one up, stick around and i wish you the very best with your Ecuador project.
and that’s it for me tonight..
best:
kat~
DAH..you posted while i was writing..didn’t know :)
k/
KATHLEEN…
laughing…exactly…thanks…
cheers, david
If you can’t I understand, however, is it possible for you to remove the posts that I have hijacked this forum with as it pertains to me and my aspirations. I would be really pissed if this was my photo and this is where the comments led to….
So interesting how the conversation goes from reactions to the work to technicalities of how it may have coulda/woulda/shoulda been shot to upholding the beliefs of those infamous photographers in their hayday…this is obviously all relevant (and I certainly am guilty of critiquing from all of these aspects) … and I’m a firm believer in having a film background, and knowing how to expose and getting the picture right in the camera (rather than photoshopping it to death)…
My thoughts are a-jumble here, but I guess the point I am trying to make is that art, in any capacity, deserves our reaction to it as art… what is your (the viewer’s) connection to the piece? What does it make you feel? How can you analyze the perspective of the subject to the viewer to the photographer… and back and forth throughout this circle of connection? How else are we supposed to look at a piece that is brought before our eyes with no further information, written or otherwise?
Yes, technical critique is absolutely valid ( and oftentimes my first reaction), and certainly be aware of how our craft came to be and the views of those who brought it to even be considered “art” rather than mere duplication of what already exists… (thank you Alfred Steiglitz and f/64… purists, glorious purists and art makers)… but I think that each photographer and their efforts here on BuRN should be applauded for putting their work out there… Our critique should be constructive in order to help them achieve the end they seek… isn’t this the point of BuRN? To lift each other to create better work and achieve the goals we seek?
I say, shoot on, fellow, photogs, everything and anything…after all, opinions are like assholes….
everybody’s got one.
I’m wondering…where is Bob Black’s opinion?
Kathleen,
in all honesty, it was a silly rant. This is 2008, photography now is not the same as it was when that book, whatever it is called, was written and published. There are genres of the art now that were never really imagined, there are new concepts and ideas. What a silly thing to say that one doesnt have the right to speak about photography because one didn’t read a book that is by today obsolete.
Also there really isnt a reason to sulk because DAH tell you you aren’t “There” yet. Its obvious to anyone that “There” is different for DAH than me, you or Ross. When you get exposed to Magnum photogs on a daily basis and the intense discussions that go on I think “There” moves a bit further up the ladder. Id say none of us here are really “There” by this standard. But thats no reason to sulk. Its a reality, and also a great motivator.
Ross,
as I said, I think you are basing your ideas too much on an obsolete book. Photography is in such a different place now than it was when the book was written. I think you are losing out on a lot by dismissing work so easily. Never dismiss anything. I love to look at all sorts of photography, obviously I have favorites but I try not to dismiss anything, there’s always ideas and inspiration to be found all over the place. So you want to be a Nat Geo photog. Great aspirations, but look at DAH. He was a Nat Geo photog, but unlike you, he has a wide field of interest. Burn is a testament to this. Look at the variety of work here, from PJ to intensely intimate. Getting a burn from David is something you should expect. Fuck, Im sure David has said negative things to Magnum and Nat Geo guys, too, why should you or I or anyone be spared? I recall that I got a less than warm review of the portfolio I showed him 2 years ago, and you know what? Upon reflection I see that David was 100% right. I wouldnt show anyone that portfolio ever again. But that review got me thinking along different lines.
Technical issues:
Im a 100% be;iever in the fact that technical issues are a non-issue. Sorry, unless it is a HIGHLY BOTCHED piece of work, who the hell cares? Not me. Infact I find often times, perfect exposures go hand in hand with absolutely mind numbingly boring stuff. Well exposed but boring stuff. Then there are examples of stuff you would call technicaly flawed blowing your mind. Its a work I often bring up because its so good, Ray’s a Laugh by Billingham. A work where the technical flaws make the work compelling.
Carrie,
You are right, but its always the case that you will find one or two people who instead of trying to help or lift up, lash out and try to bring the whole thing down. I think its a reality one has to deal with in any forum. The best advice is to ignore them because they bring nothing constructive to the table and usually their problems with the posted work stem from something completely different…like a failed attempt to shoot for Nat Geo.
i do not know anything about taking a photo. i want to learn and this is why i follow BURN. this is why i take offense when an honest response makes others think i am KMA. i did not know about DAH before BURN – sorry. now i know a lot about him and the rest of the people here who i am sure he will make great-someone here- as he deems. this is his website so it is understandable that people think so.
honestly, when i first saw michal’s picture i thought to myself well, i could have done that. it is that simple but i did not have “a longer unit” (laughing at you-know-who-you are) to submit and even take the picture or even have the eyes to think that that makes a good picture. and not just delete, delete. and i think that this makes a better photographer… THE EYE!!
and then i saw carrie’s and the others’ responses. if a picture evokes some reaction in a viewer then it is a picture that matters at least to someone at that moment.
ross, if DAH removes your hijacking to your satisfaction, that’s ok with me. i valued your input and i valued even more how the others responded. and i am thankful i have seen this thread before it ever gets pulled.
being minions, we have invoked higher powers in all aspects of life. at least this GOD everyone here speaks so highly of is willing to work with you. that makes every single one of us envious.
bump what Kat said above. plod on mister, im keeping an eye on you ;)
RAFAL…
yes, yes…”there” is very subjective….i should be very clear that specific critique is based on what the photographer is telling me she/he wants to do or to become or to publish…
your work now is 180 degrees from the portfolio you originally showed me….you really went out and found your own voice..not my voice…your voice…..this is all i expect from a fine photographer…
by the way, this is 2009
cheers, david
crap, it is 2009…..
Anyway, yeah but it often takes a kick in the arse to get out of a rut.
GRACIE…
there is no hijacking…this is just a straightforward discussion all based on the picture at hand (no pun intended)….
i hope you know that i do work with many photographers in many ways to help them become authors of their own destiny…but, i am just an ordinary man who enjoys working with those who have enthusiasm, talent and a real desire move to their “next step”…believe me, i am nobody special…fate has allowed me to have found my place in life and i find it rewarding to help others find their way, in their own way…
cheers, david
DAH,
ross asked his “hijacking” be removed. i hope you won’t but it’s up to you.
i meant no disrespect by calling you names. people here hold you in the highest regard and so do i. it is clear what you are trying to do here in BURN. and i, being a beginner, truly appreciate that.
you are still policing this website at an unGODly hour – no pun intended. pretty soon you might need some dark coffee.
zzzz
me
Rafal
ya’ know i think we’re all entitled to a “silly rant” now and then. Matter of fact, i cannot count the number of times i have woken up the morning after with an achey-breaky case of “writer’s remorse”..in fact it got so i wouldn’t write anything online at night, not even an e-mail because i could completely lose sight of the words restraint, tact, diplomacy, tolerance and reason. So Ross had a rant..so he was feeling resentful and petulant..he also quickly realized what a mud pie he had slung at the forum and quickly apologized. Man, waddyawant him to do, slit his wrists? He was already down from DAH’s thrashing and you come along and get in an extra kick for good measure.
Also, there is much truth and wisdom in old tomes that can be beautifully applied to creating art using new technologies. Don’t be so quick to bash his fave if you haven’t read it. As a matter of fact, i have this book. And with essays by the likes of Robert Frank, Laszlo Moholy-Nagy, Man Ray, Aaron Siskind, Steiglitz, Strand, Weston, Minor White, Wynn Bullock, Harry Callahan, Berenice Abbott, HCB etc.etc..see what i mean? It doesn’t get better than that. In fact, here’s a quote by Robert Frank that really does suit this situation well:
“Above all i know that life for a photographer cannot be a matter of indifference. Opinion often consists of a kind of criticism. But criticism can come out of love. It is important to see what is invisible to others-perhaps the look of hope or the look of sadness. Also it is always the instantaneous reaction to oneself that produces a photograph.”
Dated? Obsolete? well, tell me, Rafal..is it really?
best:
kat~
Gracie:
“Ross, if DAH removes your hijacking to your satisfaction, that’s ok with me. i valued your input and i valued even more how the others responded. and i am thankful i have seen this thread before it ever gets pulled.”
YES!
kat~
Gordon L.
said:
” I learned photography with a 4×5 Calumet view camera…”
yes.. i know this camera very very well.. that was the camera i had to use in my first paid job when
i first came to LA… 15 years ago… for a prom… $75 for the whole day of work…
Man you brought back so many memories…
“…However to reject the technology available to us now is just plain stupid.
Reminds me of the photogs who predicted the end of the world as we know it when built in light meters arrived….”
Laughing, laughing..i agree Gordon… i agree…
“Purists” make me crazy”…
Laughing, tell me about it… You know what Gordon, most of those “purists” never worked
with those old cameras… they have no idea how hard it is,…
DAH
“believe me, i am nobody special”
oh poo..and here i thought you were the Messiah, The Prophet Mohammed, or maybe one of the Nine Chinese Emperor Gods..and now, i mean, really…YOU’RE NOT?!? c’mon, you aren’t even like a minor Indian deity? not even a good luck charm? a white witch maybe? You really mean to say you’re just a normal person like Jim or Ataky or Panos..ok, well, he isn’t all that normal, ok, or Sidney or Patricia or Carrie or somebody?
wow…what now? all hope for my redemption is lost. That’s the only reason i was hanging around this place. Hey wait, well, there is some small comfort knowing you aren’t a god..at some point if you do a portfolio review of my work or something and i don’t like what you say i can just tell you, “well, what the hell do YOU know anyway? You’re just human!”
heh
kat~
GRACIE….KATHLEEN…
Gracie, well i guess we are even since i called you “sweet” once ..i apologized for that, didn’t i??..but, what you are is funny!!
now friends , how can i start editing a thread??? if i did that once, wouldn’t that set a bad precedent?? to “erase” this set of comments would mean pulling about 10 comments at least…
i mean, we all have to be responsible for what we say….and do we not all give pause to what we say sometimes?? that is the nature of this beast i am afraid….
ok, out of coffee..going to bed…
cheers, david
Thanks everyone, I learned a lot tonight. I’m out of coffee too. goodnight.
well, i guess that’s that. we cant use Eberhardt 4H on this website.
(but ross, pssst. rossss, are you still awake? psssst. maybe you can log on under a different name…)
Gracie, yer hilarious, girl!
everyone’s down but the last three people ALIVE are still standing:
Gracie, Kat and Panos!
Long live BURN! (or film? what was that now?) zzzzzzzzz
man, Panos, that video was intense..in fact, it was so in your face it could have been shot by, well, by you actually…super hot stuff..
g’night gracie, g’night lucy..g’night Ricky..
kat~
GRACIE….
Wrong!!! i am still here….you just never know, so beware, beware…..
DAH,
Please don’t edit the threads! Not that I think you would, but…
I do my best to edit my thoughts as I go..as do most of you… to remain insightful, intelligent, appreciative, and critical when viewing the work… a lot of the time, I am trying not to offend because I don’t always have the knowledge or history to back everything up… (not that I haven’t done research or am choosing to remain ignorant)… more like, I am an eternal student, and I rely on the viewpoints and perspectives of everyone here in order to help me expand my view and teach me something. You are my classmates, and I love hearing (reading) what you all have to say… this is why we all like to BuRN, isn’t it? In addition to seeing who is currently doing what… and where photography is going…
DAH,
i have two words for you..”edit button”..(so WE can edit ourselves)..that would be an idjit’s best friend..
k/
Kathleen,
I didnt want to get a kick in , that wasnt my intention. I didnt actually do that but maybe it came across as so.
As far as the book, maybe obsolete isnt the right word and Im sure there are things there that are valuable, but as far as using a book published 60 years ago or whatever as the bible? Thats sort of silly. As I said, photography has changed so much. None of the names you listed are photographers I look at anymore. I think anyone who sort of begins an interest in photography looks to the old masters but theres a time to split from them because to not do so means to stagnate. Photography has moved beyond those old masters, which isnt a value judgement just a statement of fact. Theres things done with photography now that they never dreamed of doing, its just a different time. Like shooting in color as a simple difference. Thats all I was saying.
Ben and All
Sorry for the cranky defensive tone of my last post. I should have let the wine wear off before spouting off like that.
Peace and all that.
Gordon L.
Panos…you are too funny, man…
ALL,
being hurt, getting hurt… part of the game…
pain… the only thing thats real…
its ok..
… sometimes we Hurt one another…
to prove, to explain, to justify, to state…
here’s Johnny talking about it:
( again, its OK…)
..I dont mind people Hurting me,
its OK if i Hurt someone… its ok…
what i cant stand though is GUILT…
Mean Spirited people dont have the balls to Hurt you…
but they will gladly instill GUILT in your soul… WITH A SMILE…
( some people call them PRIESTS… or Preachers…or Popes, or Teachers…)
ROSS – you are a lucky man to get critiqued as that from the man himself. I would have. It’s priceless.
Haik- Yes, the trick is to use that critique to move forward. A good critique frees you up, it’s certainly not something to get peeved over!! As you say, priceless!!
Oops forgot to mention; I like this image. I like the graphic nature and am left with the thought; was the photographer the other bed occupant or an interloper? I think the subtle tones a nd vignetting works well.
@gordon lafleur
water under the bridge mate.
where would this forum be without alcohol induced, and sometimes regretted, posts :ø)
´handy´ discussion.
hoho and ho
This photo made me want to see more, so I checked out your lightstalker account; really great set’s! I get a feeling of loneliness and sadness coming from this photo. I wish I really knew what was going on, but if I did I wouldn’t be this intrigued.
A lot of people get wrapped up in the idea that art is simple, someone mentioned in this forum that “they could have done this”. Whenever start to feel that way I just remind myself of the difference, I didn’t. I think if you could have done something, you should get busy and start doing it; add to the pile and make someone else say “I could have done that.”
Hope there’s more of this style of work here, It feels like an addendum to the Sakhalin essay. I love seeing the different ways people get such rich tones out of the color white.
P.S. Punctuation is off, but it’s 7 in the morning, and I’m a little drowsy.
“You can observe a lot by just watching. – Yogi Berra
;))
I second gordons reply. When I shoot documentary (strictly for the cash, and under a different name :) ) I use a d2x set ALWAYS to Aperture priority. The metering modes in that camera are WAY better than I need to be. A bit of exposure compensation dialled in manually as needed, and an eye always on the shutter speed is all i need to take flawless exposures until the cows come home. I also have lots of manual dial fiddly twisty bits cameras and hand held meters that i love using,[all my rock and roll work is on a fully manual only clockwork leica] but to say a ‘pro’ would never sully themselves with semi auto modes is twaddle. At the end of the day you make a picture, no one except other photographers give a rats arse how you shot it.
john
I use Aperture priority much of the time, simply because the camera can set the shutter speed for the aperture I’ve chosen faster than I can. If I want to compensate, that capability is right under my thumb. I shot manual cameras for years, but to believe they are “more pure” than auto is just silly. And as John said, nobody looking at your images (except other photographers) cares what you shot it with or whether you turned the shutter speed dial or the camera did the same thing electronically. Elitist BS. A camera is just a tool.
whatever allows you to work instinctively..
for the first year of the course my students were told only manual, less than 200 asa, always handheld meter.
first assignment i gave them was to snap at a big oil company conference.. mixed lighting.. dim lighting.. by lunchtime the result was piss poor and thats when they told me how they were shooting..
i told them pretty much what john has written and the afternoon results were great.
whatever the situation demands..
BTW – in class right now.. teaching how to read photos with feeling.. going to use this and ´losses´. . .
JIM
i never thought i would say this, but i agree with you!!!
As Bob said, watching and observing is very interesting indeed! A thought provoking picture by Michal and a great discussion here! Please, no editing.
I shoot in M mode, the mad mode. With P I would panic ;-)
Reimar
I’m an aperture priority shooter myself. As DAH knows from seeing me shoot, my hands wouldn’t be able to mess with shutter speed setting too and hit the shutter release button in time to catch anything at all. Got to keep it simple.
Interesting discussion here. Hope Ross Gordon sticks around. We need folks who say provocative things to move our discussions into new directions. If everyone were as “nice” as I, this forum would dry up and die from boredom.
Patricia
i also shoot, generally, Aperture priority, but then try to counter-intuit the ‘trained’ camera by shooting against values….and often mix this up with shooting fully manual with light meter…and yea, on my old 35mm (and the holga, diana, and lomo) its often a crap shoot, but at this point, after years, the instinct for what i expect is there….but shutter speed also means as much to me as depth of field or correct exposure…and it all gets fucked up when i develop the film anyway, from the cooking and the grain ;))
and yes, for once, i competely agree with Jim: camera is o nly a tool…i hate the elitism of purists too…give me the joyeous accident over the refined precision of calcuated machines any day of the week….
b
.
typo: “without light meter”…i dont use one…which is obvious from my pics ;)))
Rafal..
About Ross..gotcha..
As far as the old masters, the new masters, the masters who don’t even know they’re masters yet (that last category would be all of us, natch’) i think really, it’s where do we go for inspiration? Who feeds our creative soul? Whose work makes us, as soon as we look at it, want to grab the camera and go out and shoot? Or whose work is so elusive that we muddle it over and over in our mind, throughout the day until suddenly, in an a-ha moment we break through one of our own barriers and our photographic thinking is never quite the same again. The old masters are masters for a reason. They’re work is timeless..it’s not fashion that goes out of style. And you know, this isn’t the first time that technology has changed drastically. Carlton Watkins and his glass plate photographs of Yosemite (done way back before Ansel Adams’ parents had even started flirting with each other) is still breathtaking (t me) in spite of the prehistoric technology he was obligated to use. Then there was the sea change wrought by the 35mm camera with its comparatively teentsy negatives. What crap, what trash, ohmygod, this is the end of serious photography! But tell me that HCB didn’t give a nod of approval to the work of Jacques Henri Lartigue even though it was shot with everything from stereo to glass plates to autochromes to 2 1/4 to 35mm.
It’s all imagery and i can get just as much of a thrill from Jeff Wall as i can from Kertesz regardless that one of Jeff Wall’s photos would conceivably be considered more of a production than a photograph. Never mind, it’s an image produced by a camera, even if nominally and it’s all good. And photograms, sunprints, shadowprints, luminograms, bodygrams, chemigrams and for all i know, graham crackers too that aren’t even made with a camera. ahhhh..yes, bring ’em on!
But “Photographers on Photography” as a bible? mmm..no, though i wish there was a New Testament version of this classic. i could imagine Nan Goldin, Sally Mann and Sophie Calle, etc going off on their respective tangents in between the same book covers. And i do think that young photographers could do worse than educate themselves on the work of the masters. I think fine artists are much more aware of the debt they owe to the old masters. Photographers are a different breed. All i can say personally is that my vision and shooting energy was nothing but enriched by my study and appreciation of the work of those who came before. Maybe i am still shooting like crap but i know i shoot from a far deeper place than i did before i cared about some guy named Atget.
kat~
Rafal, i doubt you’ll even see what i wrote above because this thread has really wound down to the bitter end but that’s ok..it was good getting your perspective and giving you mine..
later..
kat~
PATRICIA…
laughing…well, yes of course we do need for folks to say provocative things..and yes we need discussions to move in new directions…
i want and encourage provocative…
but, there are two kinds of “provocative”…there is thoughtful referenced “provocative”..and there is the new internet driven blast everybody to hell with facts all wrong my career sucks i have had too many beers “provocative”…and i am sure there is a good place for this secondary approach…i just want no part of it….
freedom to say what one likes IS the reason to be here…and as you know , i will never delete anything unless it comes from a UFO…and i think that has only happened once or twice…
because of your career track , you have been spared so much of what some of us see out there in the land of struggling young professional photographers…or should i say, wannabe professional photographers…you have seen a little of the bitterness that engulfs so many who think they coulda shoulda woulda been this that or the other thing….rather than accept the reality that not EVERYONE is going to achieve what he/she thinks or dreams of achieving, they tend to lash out at the inequities of the business and use the net to vent their frustration…are there inequities?? yes, of course…was there a Spanish painter even better than Picasso who we do not know now because he did not have the marketing skills of Pablo?? maybe…but, most likely Picasso was just flat out the better painter…
however, as you also know, i work with photographers who want to grow….and growth does not necessarily mean some heralded “success”…it could mean just enjoying photography as a way of going through life in a more interesting way than otherwise…most people get this…some do not…
i think Ross Gordon will be back…if he is who he says he is, then nothing will stop him….my phone conversation with him and the initial review of his cowboy work in South America led me to believe he was worth spending time with even though his work needed a strong push forward…
yes, i was just as brutally honest with him as he was being with us, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the amount of time i will spend with him to at least find out if his dreams can either come true or modify his goals to fit the times, his talent, and the logic of his life…when Ross commented that the work here was “just ok”, then i had no choice but to tell him honestly that his work was just a bit less “ok” than the work he was critiquing…there is no doubt among any of us who look at the comments coming in that the harshest non-constructive critiques come from those with the least amount of good work themselves…just go look for yourself..cruise the truly tough one liner harsh comments…look at the websites of these critics and you will usually see an inverse proportion of “attack critique” coming from those with the least legs to stand on…
BURN is not a compendium or an encyclopedia or an anthology of the best photography going on in the world at the moment nor of the past…is there even such a thing?? we are just one thing…one cycle of time…one collaboration…imperfect….often “just ok”…but, just as often representative of what young photographers are doing out there today…as i look forward to what we can be in print at the end of the year, i have no doubt that our star will shine bright…
cheers, david
Av mode ain’t Programme mode though is it? if you’re shooting in Av mode you’re still making creative decisions, right? although i guess you could argue that simply by choosing to shoot in Programme mode then you’re making a creative decision.
wow, what a great discussion i initiated here. i think i should probably move onto something more interesting than camera technology though – i’ve heard that the ins and outs of web coding for financial institutions makes for great cocktail party banter.
KATHLEEN..
you are so right on this one…photographers tend not to revere the “old masters” (some of whom died just last year!) as do other artists in the fine arts arena….this has always been a curiosity to me…i certainly key off of the masters all the time, yet have no intention of copying them….it seems to me that a healthy balance of acceptance, then rejection, then acceptance again of the so called masters is a nice way to go…in other words: admire, do your own thing, then really admire!!!
cheers, david
DAH
:))
you made me laugh..it’s sorta like growing up, first you admire your parents, then you do your own thing and then you REALLY admire them..love the way you put things..
best:
kat~
i think to earn money from photography AND keep the passion and fresh eyes of interest wide open is a difficult thing..
i wonder if some who would like to be prof REALLY want to be prof in terms of earning the living shooting what they would like to shoot.. because to become bitter is the strangest response when practicing something you love.. even if it is only for love you practice.
no one has a right to anything, and yet everybody has the potential for anything (aside from delusion.. you know.. i shall never be the astronaut i wanted to be…)
being bitter or angry implies a ´right´ to me which none of us have..
i´m far to busy being grateful for still breathing to worry about where my photos will take me next..
having dreams is an amazing gift and having even half the talent to realize half of the dreams must be success…
to become dissatisfied maybe displays some of the personal restraints or chains which may in fact be preventing the greater dreams coming true… who knows.
i mean – mumbling along or grumbling along.. who would you wanna work with?
BEN…
you are quite correct…Aperture preferred is not Program….lots of tweaking can happen in A mode…i am not quite ready yet this morning for a discussion on web coding for financial institutions…but, i am on my way to the bank to figure out why i have no money…
cheers, david
¨admire, do your own thing, then really admire!!! ¨
do you say this because doing our own thing will never be how it was imagined? much harder, in fact, although more rewarding..
i mean to say admire.. then find out how tough it is (just read your bank post above :ø)
THEN admire.. without the sunglasses on.
David; “i am on my way to the bank to figure out why i have no money…”
The fun thing is when you get to the bank thinking they’ve made a mistake, and they show you that they haven’t, you truly are broke!!! The other good one is when the bank manager looks at your “work on hand list” and gives you that “yeah right…” look!!
The beauty of looking at other’s work whether it be old masters or new, is that you subconsciously assimilate aspects of their work and it appears in your own. Throw in some of your own ideas and you are slowly building your own style.
I often shoot in “S” mode in dark clubs/bars etc using slow flash. I pretty much know what speed works for me the best effect. I often shoot in manual mode too because the auto modes can overexpose in the contrasty light in those clubs and ruin the lighting effect.
As for provocative statements: I really enjoy Jim’s posts, I don’t totally agree with many, but there is often a germ of truth in them. They provide a counterpoint to the “you shouldn’t make money from your work” point of view. I think that there is a happy middle ground to sail too though, doing meaningful “commercial magazine” work, and having a personal project to let strip on.
If I didn’t do the mag work it would be back to the supermarket for me!! And if you think some photographers are unhappy and whiney, you should sit through the number of smokos (coffee break) I did in the 15 years I worked in them :-)))
I’ve just started a new project focussing on youth. The aim is to show that most youth are ok, but get a bad rap from adults. Most get on with life, fall over, get back up and learn from it. However their reputation is tarnished by the few troublemakers. The link is on my name in case anyone is interested in commenting.
Cheers everyone.
Kathleeen,
I think that old masters are fine. I mean its all part of the foundation isnt it? But to be honset, my interests lay in the kind of photography that they didnt practice, my days of b/w street shooting are behind me and Im not going to be a PJ. But Im not advocating ignoring them at all. I do, from time to time, grab a book of classics, just like from time to time I will read a classic novel or listen to classic rock….but I think one needs to live in the present and be more interested in the contemporary photography out there, of which theres so much that there isnt time for much else.
OK, my last word on Program, Aperture or Shutter prefered automation, really, I promise.
I suggest y’all give P a try. P will instantly give you an appropriate exposure in any situation. If you step out of a very dark area into a bright one (like the inside of a church then out to the bright sunlight.} Av or Tv will likely get you in trouble going back and forth unless you always remmember to adjust.
On P, assuming you are a Canon shooter, when you want a different f stop shutter combination, just twiddle that little wheel under your index finger, you want exposure compensation, just twiddle that big wheel under your thumb.
I’ve also recently discovered auto-ISO (oops). Brilliant, no more stuff shot in bright sunlight at 1600 ISO.
Let go Luke, use the force.
Gordon L
Rafal..
ya know, it´s funny..after i dragged out that Photographers on Photography¨ book last night i´ve been reading it ever since. I am reading Stieglitz essays and wow, there´s so much that he wrote that filled in a lot of blanks for me about his work, how he thought, the stuff i agreed with, the stuff i didn´t. The stuff that is very wise and still rings true today and the stuff that´s quaint and really, REALLY, irrelevant now. At one point he was talking about the recent technological innovation of hand-held cameras and how everybody and his brother, cousin and aunt were suddenly photographers, whipping off ¨snaps¨(well he didn´t call them snaps but he was so contemptuous he might as well have called them that) on glass plates without one thought to what they were doing..just creating all this junk photography, flooding the market so that a serious photographer could hardly bear it for even one minute more..well! i had to laugh, the more things change, the more they stay the same, eh?
And the other thing that was a nice feeling, is how much more i understood than the first time i cracked that book several years ago. It seems that somewhere, somehow i managed to have learned some things after all. huh. who knew?
i do hear you about so much photography, not enough time..i know, i know. I try to balance the two but think with contemporary stuff i barely scratch the surface. I need to spend more time with new stuff. That´s for sure.
btw…i am one of your Flickr contacts…
best
kat
Rafal..er, i mean, you are one of MY Flickr contacts…
Kathleen,
whats your flickr name?
I wonder what Stieglitz would say about the digital revolution:)
Gordon,
Im an Av shooter. 100% of the time. As far as auto ISO I like to use ISO differently depending on the look I want in the series Im shooting. Im not against P shooting, but I doubt Id do it largely because Im used to shooting as I do now. Why change?
Rafal, yikes, if i tell you here, i tell everybody and most (though not all) of my stuff on Flickr is very caprichoso, that is to say, most is whimsical, experimental, put up there to see what i think about it once it gets off my hd and into a public venue. So, see i’d rather wait till i have a gallery set up on Lightstalker to make my work available here. However, if you look back in your mail over the last week, you received notice of a new contact. That’s me. But please, no judgements, k?
Stieglitz was an art snob so if he was wavering on the edge of a breakdown over the democratization of photography with the introduction of the hand-held camera, he would have gone completely batty over the 35mm, taken the plunge from the 17th floor of that hotel he shared with Georgia when digital came along, and then rolled in his grave with the snap-happy cellphone cameras.
have a great day, Rafal!
kat~
I would have loved to see that;)
Anyway, Ill try and find you in the notices….wanna give me a first letter?:)
Rafal
first letter “D”, last letter “k”
hey, Rafal, you will be very busy today with all the comments on your wonderful essay..i am not commenting there yet because i want to spend the day with it..the thoughts are gelling in my mind. I saw a few of these shots on your Flickr stream so sorta knew the kind of shots that would be there but the essay is way more than just that, so i will bbl…
congratulations on a really nice essay and more later..
kat~