Children in the abandonated chocolate factory. Currently are more than 100 families living inside. These families were looking for a decent place to live and a more prosperous future for their children, away from the dangerous streets of Salvador de Bahia in Brazil.
ESSAY CONTAINS EXPLICIT CONTENT
This work is a witness about a place that no longer exists.
I lived there almost everything that one can live.
I learned there the dark secrets of the human condition through which our survival and I also learned there that love can exist in ashes and chaos.
I learned there what a family is.
Eight years ago sixty families occupied the “Galpao da Araujo Barreto”, an abandoned chocolate factory in Salvador de Bahia, Brazil. Before that, these families lived in the dangerous streets of the city until they decided to come together and occupy this factory in ruins and turn it in a home.
Every human being needs a space to feel safe and build their identity. After all this years of convivence and resistence these families have created strong comunitarian feelings to make possible the survival in this environment. In this community, the people helps each other keeping safe the shacks, babysitting the kids or sharing the food.
In spite of the strong relationships between the families, the social discrimination continues marginalizing these people. After eight years of occupation, despite having left the street, the living conditions are similar; the problems that they suffered in the streets, drugs, prostitution, and violence, are now present in the factory.
Noemi (38), drugs addicts and mentally handicapped. She works as cook and prostitue to survive after her husband and brother died in a car accident one year ago. She lives inside the abandonated chocolate factory since 2003.
Two young boys with no education or work go to the occupied chocolate factory to take drugs. They are talking about how the police was entered in his favela last night. Brazil’s murder rate is now the highest in the world. The gravity of this spreading violence is becoming more and more intense.
Two girls fighting because they have discovered that they have a common boyfriend.
Erivaldo (25) with her son. Since he was seven years old he uses crack. He has been trated to quit the drugs and take care of his family but he always fall back to drugs and abandon his family.
By day Leila (13) is a normal girl, but at night she prostitute herself to survive.
Noemi (38), drugs addicts and mentally handicapped. She works as cook and prostitue to survive after her husband and brother died in a car accident one year ago. She lives inside the abandonated chocolate factory since 2003.
Sandro showing his scar. His wife saw him with another woman and she cut him with a glass bottle. Instantly he fainted and had to be hospitalized.
Ana celebrating her sith anniversary. She was born and has grown up inside the factory.
Night meeting to discuss issues of common interest in the community. Despite having left the street, the living conditions in the factory are similar; the problems that they suffered in the streets, drugs, prostitution, and violence, are now present in the factory.
Fight in the communal showers. The stress of living in extreme conditions does increase the signs of violence in the factory.
Paizinho (25) is the chief of the community inside the favela in the old chocolate factory. He solves the problems that exist between families.
I have been working in this project since 2009, living with the families and their daily dramas. Documenting the daily life inside of this community, where the life moves between the universal bipolarity of harmony and chaos, hope and despair.
In March 2011 the goverment moved all the families to a new buildings placed in a dangerous neighborhood 30 km from the city. Now I want to come back to the new place to document how the community will manage their relationships to build their dignity, to build a new world around their and just live.
The aim of this project is to create a document of a place where the tragic decomposition of human life combined perfectly with the magic realism of Latin America.
Leo (25) and Geany (22) with their two childrens taking lunch.
Young men with fighting dogs in the old chocolate factory.
Young couple playing pool in the favela inside an occupied chocolate factory in Salvador de Bahia, Brazil.
Two young boys with no education or work go to the favela to take drugs. They are talking about how the police was entered in his favela last night. Brazil’s murder rate is now the highest in the world. The gravity of this spreading violence is becoming more and more intense.
General vision of the abandoned chocolate factory occupied for dozens of families since 2003. In spite of the extreme conditions in which they live, this factory in ruins has become a home for these families. They have managed to build their dignity and their routine adapting and normalizing their lives among chaos.
Girl playing with a carnival mask at the factory. In spite of the extreme conditions in which they live, this factory in ruins has become a home for these families. They have managed to build their dignity and their routine adapting and normalizing their lives among chaos.
Maria (16) smoking crack. Since she was 8 years old she prostitute herself to take drugs.
Noemi (38) is criying with her son because is the anniversary of the death of her brother and her husband. Since then she began to split into prostitution to survive.
Couple making sex. The prostitution levels at the factory are very high. The pricipal cause is to get money to survive or to take drugs.
Melanie (22) is actually living with her two sons in a small shack in a old chocolate factory in Salvador de Bahia. In spite of the extreme conditions in wich they live, this factory in ruins has become a home for the family.
Children playing in a old chocolate factory occupied since 2003 for dozens of families. These families were looking for a decent place to live and a more prosperous future for their children, away from the dangerous streets of Salvador de Bahia in Brazil.
Reni (31), is the responsable to preserve the favela and to alert if the police is coming. Despite having left the street, the living conditions in the factory are similar; the problems that they suffered in the streets, drugs, prostitution, and violence, are now present in the factory.
Bio
Sebastian Liste (1985, Spain) graduated in Sociology and MA in Photojournalism. Since 2005 Sebastian has concentrated to mixed his sociological knowledges with his visual skills to explore personal and intimate stories, as well as the roots of social structure issues now facing many countries around the world when they want enter a new economic system. He is also interested in the profound cultural and identity changes that occur in our contemporary world.
Recently, Sebastian was selected to participate at the 2011 Joop Swart Masterclass. His work have been also recognized worlwide at Sony WPO, Lucie Awards, Antropographia, CENTER Awards, Fotovisura Grant, Onward, Reinassance Prize, Terry O’Neill Award, Ian Parry Scholarship, among others.
His photographs have appeared at TIME, The Sunday Times Magazine, PDN, British Journal of Photography, FotoVisura, and other publications.
His projects have been exhibited in London, New York, Paris, Geneva, Barcelona, San Francisco and Tokio.
Related links
Sebastian Liste
WOW…the Real Thing! The Very Real Thing!
bravo!
I hate to just say these images are incredible, but these are just incredible.
Amazing photography… bravo…
Regarding the subject matter though, do you think your project can have a positive influence in some way to better the living conditions of these families?
Wow for the pictures, the essay and the real thing.
Critics may say – it is yet another drugs and poor people story, but it is more than that I think.
This is not a “I was there and saw that” kind of essay, it is a look this was my life and I was / am part of it essay. It feels and smells. There are a few essays like that, but only a few.
Bravo! and good luck for the future.
This is very impressive work. Great technical mastery. Fantastic access. Meaningful.
In general, I’m sick of this type of poverty porn, but I think this essay works far better than most because of its extreme localization inside the chocolate factory. My criticism, or lets say my questioning of how it might be better, centers around its symbolism, or more specifically, apparent lack thereof. The obvious comparison, at least for me, is with Salgado and I think in that respect it falls short. As good technically, probably, but lacking the evident symbolism which elevates Salgado’s work far above so much of the poverty porn genre. It seems to me that for most people (and I suspect for the photographer as well) these photos simply are what they are. The abandoned chocolate factory is just an abandoned building. This is a devastating portrait of extreme poverty in Bahia, most certainly. But more meaningful than that? I don’t get the impression the photographer is seeing it. Or perhaps there’s a photojournalism ethic involved? Document, don’t analyze? Or perhaps a devastating portrait of poverty in a specific place is enough? Not sure.
I have seen this essay before and I really love this edit… #12, and similar, really add a lot.
I’ve been waiting since before the EFP to see this essay on Burn, was hoping it would be a finalist. Great work, love your simple involvment with the people and the place, Sebas!
And very happy to have seen a large edit of this project a while back, looking forward to see where the future will take you. Thank you!
Definitely rises above the usual “photographer does poverty” essay. This is really good work.
I half expected Jim to make his usual comment that this kind of work lacks value because it is the type of thing that only other photographers would see. I’ll only go there to the limited extent that I think this is the kind of work that other photographers definitely should see. As I sit here this morning finishing a rough first draft of my new project, which I worked on for three whole days, I can’t help considering this work and questioning whether what I do is trite in comparison. And I think that’s a valid question for all of us. Don’t get me wrong. I don’t believe that, although it can often feel that way, this kind of thing is the only work that matters. But I think it’s nice that it raises the question.
F*ck yeah Sebastian!
Dont know about Davids inverse square comment theory, or whether this lacks or has value, or the ability to effect positive change.
All I know is that these are strong strong images. That need nothing to prop them up.
Everything else is secondary to this.
That opening image.. I dont care who they are… I dont care where they are or what they are fighting about…because that image is in and of itself complete. There are many in this essay.
just a simple: wow!
Great images, could be an amazing book. It’s very rare that I get the feeling that I need so called “breathers” in the middle of the essay but this time I was relieved when few came. Miron Zownir came to my mind when I was looking, but these are much more eloquent and compassionate.
beautiful, masterful work….
and yet….
and yet the sequence of 20/21….
only 1 picture of sex amid a story of seemingly of life and yet the sex, and nudity, the joining, comes only with prostitution…..and without faces to boot….backs, spread legs….if photographer was protecting the privacy of both man and woman (understandable) what necessitates the shot…
journalism?….
what makes me sad, in general, about what gets cultivated in the PJ/Doc work now….this is more a critique of the type of story telling that gets pushed around the doc world and the international world of picturetaking (at least in my experience of it)…this again is not so much about Sebastian, but about what we as picture makers hope…maybe it is simply that i’ve gone off the deep end and lost my enthusiasm for photographers moving from one group of people to another, ….again, my problem i know…
anyway,m sebastian is a richly talented young photographer, clearly committed to a place and people and yet, and the pictures themselves are faultless and the commitment to the story certain….
still, what saddens me is the disconnect (for me) between the lives documented juxtaposed next to all those photo awards and trappings….
and 8 year old that prostitutes herself….and only the picture of her smoking crack….no other moments to allow us deeper insight/experience…
is this my hang up?…yes….
i’ve grown on and rattled…..
what to say….
…
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Excellent work, one more eyeball thrill to add to the ongoing magnificence at the Burn library. More “Rare Air”
Now what I want to know is this…
In the “world” of guitar playing there are guitar virtuosos who have never had commercial success and will never be mainstream and maybe they have no real interest in being so either. All these guitarists are just as good or better than the very well known top guitar gods. For example Frank Marino isn’t well known among the average guitar listener, he may get some airplay in the USA but he sure doesn’t in Europe. But he’s an absolute god for many of the top guitar virtuosos we all hear daily on any rock station. In other words he’s a guitarist’s guitar player someone who can only really be appreciated fully if you’re deeply knowledgeable with guitar playing. Now is Burn the same way? Are the photographer’s we see here so very good and so infused with “Rare Air” they are perhaps above the average, the mainstream or your average Sunday magazine? A bit like the Tour De France and watching it on television and enjoying it. You only really begin to appreciate it and fully understand the tactics and pain if you’ve either competed or climbed a 21km mountain pass.
At least it all becomes clearer if you’re deeply invested in something…
Mr Photoshop is the real driver in the final analysis and takes from the images giving little back ……………pity
I don’t know, Imants. Occasionally some things actually rise above photoshop. This does for me. I’m no fan of heavily manipulated images, but in this case, for me, the images are strong enough to make the medium irrelevant.
Wow. First time ever, I agree with Jim Powers. Something is wrong. :-)))
Not with you there it has just lowered the bar, then again heavy manipulation has entered your blood stream via osmosis and it is only now surfacing through your pores Jim.
no16 high contrast leads to loss of content
15,20 21 plastic nature of manipulation runs the show .. as I sated pity but then again it is another “bring on the poor people essay” that brings little new to the burn table ………………….sigh
While I don’t actually “mind” a bit of Photoshop over-use, I do notice it…..and I guess it’s always better not to notice it. Superb essay in any case (and I’m very critical with poverty porn).
Incredible photographs. I agree with most of the positive comments about the work itself. I do wonder what’s the point, if not to show that the people in the chocolate factory are slowly descending to an animal state, or worse. That’s what I see here, not dignity or a sense of home as the essay alludes to. Then, as I think Bob is saying (I don’t want to speak for Bob though), I want to connect with and really mourn for the spirit slipping away.
Ok, let me try again as Andy has pointed to one of my points of discomfort with this essay (and in fact the tradition, current, to which it is bound and celebrated by).
Again, so it is clear, I respect the photographic talent, eye, use of light/shadow, compositional skills of Sebastien. He possess a clear and engaging eye, and a thoughtful one (generally) for visual acumen. To me, his work look like classic “Joop Swart Masterclass”, and this is a problem for me, not him, but the concept and the perpetuation of this kind of post-colonial thinking and ‘reporting.’ It seems clear to me that Sebastien cares immensely about the men and women and children in Bahia by not only spending time with them, living with them, but also showing in some of the pictures a remarkable sensitivity, particularly to the children and the families struggling to stay together. And yet, there are some (for me) terribly problematic visual and (more importantly) narrative choices made that not only break my heart but anger me. I wrote my friend in Brazil yesterday, the journalist Miriam Leitao, about the essay (hoping she’ll chime in) and what bothers me so profoundly about this kind of narrative.
I want to repeat about the picture of Maria, the crack smoking 16 year old. Even that is lamentable: she is defined such as that: a crack addict who has prostituted herself since 8 and the ONLY thing we get of her/her life is that image, that caption. As if that is ALL she is. This is not only sloppy reporting but damning and really post-colonialist thinking: she could not be anything more than this, look at the conditions, life? Now, not for a moment do i think Sebastien believes this, but what he seems not to understand narratively is that IS the message. Had he done a full story on her, for example, or juxtaposed other images with her life/family, this would be one thing, but that is all we are given. Ditto about Noemi. What to we know, are shown about her?….Caricature of a mentally ill, drug using prostitute, without any other kind of reflection. The same with the shot of the sex: again ONLY within the context of prostitution, and nameless, bodies fucking no more. What does this SAY to the viewer, what does this say about the profound plight of these people?
In truth, i do not blame Sebastian. But as a photographer, as a teacher, and if we were friends, I would go to ask with him and ask him heartfeltly about this. The hope and the commitment to trying to document others lives as a way to not only bring awareness and offer expression to those who may not have a voice, or to try to document as a way to bring attention to people, is a worthy and important gesture and way to live, but with that also comes I think important and measured behavior and thoughtfulness, NOT only the capacity to make beautiful photographs.
More importantly, there doesn’t seem to be any doubt in these pictures either, the questioning of the photographic medium to begin with. How can, in good faith, a documentary photographer not do this any longer. I don’t know, except that I think this is where the ‘art’ world is wiser and more honest that the documentary/journalism world, about the role of the picture maker when depicting lives, for a brief time, for the sake of a photographic story. Sebastian is a Spanish photographer spending time with people from a different country amid economic and sociological circumstances that are profoundly removed from his own. it is not that distance and division that is troubling, but the use of that distance: the cultivation of photographic awards and patterns.
In the end, amid some beautifully powerful and thoughtful photographs, we are left with another story that seems not terribly nuanced about the lives of these people, nor questions at all the veracity of the photographic image.
as for the discussion of the ‘worked’ nature of the pictures (PS?), for me, that’s not terribly important. Photographs are by definitions lies, artificial objects that can and often do point toward a state of either awareness or confusion or idea or fiction. all photographs are manipulated and manipulative, that is neither new nor inherently problematic (my own practice is about both of that), but the question arises to what end?
Again, this is my hang up and it is the world in which i live (the active discussion of the use of pictures about others and the consequence of that) with other photographers, artists, activists, teachers/professors.
It is clear that there is tenderness and compassion for the subjects in this story. I believe that. The problem is that, have not the documentary photographic world failed for too long to understand that people are more than subjects and that pictures are far less than contact. A book about this housing? For what end?….unless they themselves would benefit…..
a more interesting and ambiguous example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNlwh8vT2NU
then again, it must be me this time….it is increasingly harder for me to reconcile the disconnect between the lives of the subjects of this kind of photographic project and the lives/manner/world of the photographers themselves…..
Bob raises some very interesting issues that we all probably need to do a lot more thinking about in relation to photography in general and particularly documentary work. This is not to say I agree with most of his reactions, but I acknowledge the relevance and importance of the problems he is suggesting. There’s a lot of “post-colonial” rhetoric that I don’t necessarily buy into, but the basic kernel of that critique is one that thoughtful people must consider before running around “objectifying” others. But ultimately, I think making photographs of anything means, inescapably, “objectifying” things.
I wonder if much of the problem that Bob indicates may arise more from the captions than from the photographs themselves? I watched this this essay twice without seeing any of the captions, and my reaction was thus purely to the visual material. The words “crack” and “prostitute” were not on my mind… but after reading some of the discussion here, I went back and looked at the captions, and yes, that certainly changes the impact and attitude of the essay considerably. As Bob admits, there is a good deal of close empathy and sensitivity in many of these images… and incidentally, there’s nothing about the manipulation of these images that bothers me in the slightest. They are rich, powerful, and evocative. Sebastian is still quite young… the hard questions about the social and personal ecology of his work are ones he will no doubt have to grapple with from now on, but there is no doubt in my mind that he is a brilliant visual artist.
Well I just wish I had Bob’s deep and questioning analytical eye. These questions and visual errors Bob has pointed out just fly right over my head. I probably look and feel photography too much from the seat of my pants.
About the Photoshop complaints I sort of agree, but more than Photoshop it’s the way the images are exposed. Clipped highlights occur probably from shooting digital as if it was good old BW film and it ain’t. Expose with digital for the highlights like good old slide film and these problems will not be there.
That is it Sidney. The captioning is a big problem but also the choice of narrative (picture selection). because we do have a responsibility with what we show (picture choice, picture choice, picture choice) and how we show it. I wouldn’t have been upset with the picture of Maria if there were other images of her and the captioning were different. But we get her only as that: a 16 year old crack addict prostituting herself since 8. Imagine if she were our daughter and that was the totality of visual and journalistic information conveyed. ditto the use of the sex shot. This is really angering to me. I also have photographed people having sex (it is in my Chicory book) because it is part of life/intimacy, but i also include faces and I was fortunate enough to have a close relationship and trust with the couple. I understand that people do not want to be photographed in physically/sexually/emotionally intimate moments, so what to photographers (particularly young photographers) fall back on: the sex shot with the prostitute. why? it is FUCKING EASY!….she/he is only a prostitute….now, had there been sex shots with family members and prostitutes, i would not have been bothered at all….especially when we are told that this is about the LIFE….or maybe sebastian should have turned the camera on himself too?….i don’t know….this is a critical problem and it is part of a colonialist mentality. you are right that in the academy too much is made of post-colonialist orientation (about sensitivity), but as Agamben reminds it is impossible to convey certainty, let alone about another….but that is not the philosophic point i wanted to make, but this:
as you pointed out, we MUST be aware….not only as photographers but as viewers….
photographers and viewers alike have a responsibility…because THESE people….will not go to Amsterdam to spend a week with wealthy photoworld, these people will not get grants, these people will not self-congratulate….they will continue to toil and suffer….choosing to use people and their life’s plight for an end comes with responsibility….that can serve for a meaningful practice….but if, for documentary work, the point is pictures first, it becomes a hypocritical and yes colonialist mentality….
so, you are absolutely right, the captioning is unfortunate….but so too is the choice of how the pictures were narrated….
and yes, Sebastian is young and i don’t fault him, he is learning….i fault the greater PJ/Doc world to which he is a member….and to his mentors and editors….
what to include and what to exclude is a critical dialectic, just as what to shoot and what not to shoot is an act of both ethics and awareness…
(hope i don’t sound too hot under the collar, i don’t want the ‘sound’ of my online commenting voice sound too arrogant or blustery! Just trying to create dialogue).
thanks Sidney for your thoughtful insight
cheers
bob
and for clarification, a bit more about the picture of the sex picture:
NO NAMES….i mean, we’re giving the name of Noemi. We;re told she is BOTH a cook and prostitue and yet what are we given: shot of her with legs spread in a daze smoking, shot of her breasts and NOT a shot of her as a cook, for christ sake. So then why are the couple having sex anonymous? Is this prostitue with client or a couple. and why do photographers always shoot prostitutes having sex, doing drugs, especially ones impoverished? why? Because it is easy. photographers do not WANT to show them as full human beings. Selling one’s body for sustenance is one part of their life (a part of all our lives) and yet rarely do i see pictures of prostitutes in other aspects of their lives. That is what is easy. It seems to me that photographers respect the boundary and discomfort of others protecting their privacy (if they wish that) but see prostitutes as easy access to the ‘gritty’ shots. Again, i wouldn’t have any qualms with the sex shot if they were complimented with other kinds of pictures about this woman or at least juxtaposed this with sex shots on non-prostitutes…again, a woman reduced to caricature…at least d’agata’s work is really about HIS LIFE and all that questioning…i once argued with another photographer (published at burn 1 year ago) who was in love with ackerman/d’agata and when living in california when to tijuana to photograph prostitutes…i asked him, ‘why?’….his live had no relationship to them….i see it all over again and again and again…..easy to make the mark in the pj world….
what i would LOVE to see is a photographer with the talent of Sebastian do a story about these people that BREAKS every sterotype…..or that turns the camera to examine his own life in relationship to others…
but this is a task that if i ask another, i believe as a photographer and teacher, i should also do…and so i do…
choices….
how we think about the world is as important as how we see it….for one begets the other…
with her client:
Well… I love to see the controversy awakened with this work.
First of all I would like to talk a little bit about the process of this project.
I came to the factory in late 2009 as a student, now two years ago. I had just finished my degree in sociology and this place caught my attention like few others in which I have been. Perhaps the first surprise of this work is the poverty of the place, the lives of these people… But something more aroused my curiosity and was the way how they build a community in the middle in the chaos to survive and to protect each others. No doubts I lived this feelings in first person and maybe you can´t see it on this set of images. No doubt all this makes me think about my work, on the reaction and use of photographs in our contemporary, visual and linked world. And the consequences and the reactions that these images may have on the people portrayed. Thanks to all who have dropped their views on the importance of these aspects… I have been feflecting on that for long time.
Since 2009 I visited this place several times, each time spending longer periods on there. Then the relationship with the families has grown increasingly more and some of the members had become good friends. The last time I come to Salvador de Bahia for 4 months, I did it thanks to a scholarship and I spent this time exclusively working on this project.
Finally I had to leave Salvador de Bahia in March 2011 when I ran out of scholarship money. At this moment the government evicted all the families from the factory to a new place in the outskirts of the city along with hundreds of families from other favelas. This process of cleaning up the visible poverty of cities is due to social and structural changes taking place in Brazil for the celebration of the Olympics and the World Cup in the coming months. Thanks to the relationship I have created with these families during the past two years now I’m immersed in a new social approach of how we create the social construction of our cities, such as stratification and discrimination create the space we inhabit. Now I’m immersed in a much more widespread than is known as the gentrification process, and this is a global process that has nothing to do with developing countries or post-colonial visions of the poverty. The gentrification is a global process, an urban transformation that involves displacing a population with low income from a potentially interesting neighborhood, to transform it into a new, expensive and a fashionable place to live. Now the government wants to build a shopping center in this place where the Barreto community once lived, as a first step to attract new residents. I think that all of us, regardless of where we came, sounds familiar this process.
When in 2009 I finished my sociology studies I also finished to travel all around the world without sense. I realized that I had to do was concentrate on my corner of the world, in places where I know the codes and where I have a more intimate understanding of what is happening. Now the only two projects I’m working on are in Latin America and the Mediterranean area. Places where I’ve grown and I know well. I agree with Bob that the methods of documentary photographers and photojournalists, who always go back and forth, a group of people to another can be a little hypocritical and meaningless. Maybe they feel that they´re just paying the bills, a job like any other and that’s it. But I rather think they are like parachutists landing on a strange land with strange people who do not cause any interest except that of an exotic image… and after that they leave and never look back again.
My parents, my sister and the rest of my family are from Uruguay, which borders Brazil. I was born in Spain by a fluke of fate and since I was a child I spent long periods in South America. For years I want to move to live here. Now, thanks to all those international recognition, which is certainly not dificult to see that are dissonant with the objectives of my work, I managed to move to Brazil to continue working here. Focus in this community and in the new social dynamics that are occurring in the city of Salvador de Bahia and in the lives of these families.
My grandfather spent his life working on plans to improve urban infrastructure and social development in Latin America until he died. I don´t know, sometimes I like to think I’m recovering some of the legacy of his work. He was an architect and I´m sociologist and photographer. Perhaps his work had objectives and results was more visible and specific than mine. But I have no doubt that he took years of searching untill he found ways to achieve social change too. I´m 26 and I’m on that quest, and above all, I have no hurry. Patience is everything.
I´m certainly aware of the importance of contextualization of an image through the captions, but personally, out of editorials bounds, I prefer to skip free and direct look to my photographs as Sidney appreciated.
Honestly this work has nothing to do with photojournalism. As I´m not a photojournalist. While I have been working on that project I had not relationships with the editorial world. In fact, until last week I had never worked for anyone for an assigment and it´s never been published.
It´s seems like the image of the couple having sex and the shoot of Maria taking crack is crucial and very polemic on this work. I have to say that since I´m inside of a little edition of 24 images of two years work with a project with more than hundred families involved I´m not in the position to discuss the obvious narrative limits that this have. So you´re right. By the way, from some time ago I have been working on a diferent essay about Noemia, wich shows her life, inside and outside the prostitution life, where I document the relation with her sons, how she lives with her mental disabilities and her crucial role as a cooker inside the community. I hope to have something ready to show it soon.
Regarding the annotation of Sidney about “objectifying” things”. I have to say that my relation with photography is a kind of process of “objectify the objectifying subject”, since I investigate social issues, and therefore, I try to understand and explain it. This question also involves calling into question the researcher himself and his own research practice. At this point, the problematic about “objectifying” things” revolves around the intellectualist slant, wich leads to conceive the world as a spectacle (with objects ready to make the opera prima) to be interpreted and not as a set of specific problems that call for practical solutions.
Finally, regarding the last Bob comment “what i would LOVE to see is a photographer with the talent of Sebastian do a story about these people that BREAKS every sterotype…..or that turns the camera to examine his own life in relationship to others…” add that my last project “On this side of the mountain”, which I did for the Joop Swart Masterclass is about the family of my girlfriend, who, at this point, after almost 9 years together, become my own family. It´s an introspective turn into my work documenting my immediate environment, exploring the strong relationships between love, family and land. With this project I want to make a poetic and visual map of my surroundings, recognizing fragments of memory not yet written, collecting the moments I hold close, those that make us reflect on our own lives. As I worked on this project, I discovered the meaning of personal photography, and from there I began to answer essential questions about what a family is. I hope to share with all of you this work soon and continue with the disertation…
Sebastian:
First of all, thank you for your thoughtful and measured response. I must say, as both a photographer/writer here at burn and a reader, I am always slightly disappointed when the published authors do not engage with the readership (the importance of publishing on line, for me, as opposed to in a magazine/book). I am both appreciative and happy that you’ve stepped in to not only expand about the work but the questions raised. I never understand why people (photographers/viewers) shy away from dialogue. Though I remain very critical of the narrative choices made here (as a story), I value and respect deeply your talent (i say that photographer to photographer). I am also happy to hear about the fuller project about Noemia, something I would love to see published. Though i understood the polemic of showing Maria taking crack, that is just the exact wrong tact for the argument, it seems to me, though I understand completely wanting to get an audience to feel the horror and difficulty of this child’s life, but it ends up reducing her to not a child, but to a symbol of a bestial life….anyway….
let me just say again, that I think your picture taking skills are both powerful and refined and your sensitivity to the world around is both lyrical and generous (i love many of the pics of the children and the distant/establishing pictures). I would love to see ‘on this side of the mountain’, you can send a link if you haven’t published it. 6 weeks ago, over drinks, Dominic Nahr and i spoke of this very thing, that the series of his I most love and the work, i think, that matured him as a photographer, had to do with the death of his father….a very personal series, one that resonated throughout his later more social/journalistic work…..it is THAT kind of introspection that is so important…..
and Sebastian, if you do return to Brazil, I would be more than willing and happy to give you contact info for Miriam. I’m sure, if you’ve spent time there, you may know her, her work, her book. It would be a pleasure for me to have you guys meet and drink and talk together. A wiser, stronger, more aware person you’d be challenged to find.
Lastly, please do not take my criticism of the narrative as a personal attack. I too, as both a photographer and a reader, react viscerally to images but i also think that after we’ve made the work, the harder work happens: that is our relationship to those we photograph and its relationship to the use of the work, as polemic or document. A difficult matter, and one to which I absolutely have no refined answers.
I do hope this discussion continues more and with other photographers as well. BTW, congrats on your fellowship with Visura and spending time with Grant and Adriana…they are two wonderful, loving committed people.
again, thanks for adding to the conversation and for clarifying and contextualizing your own experiences. That means alot to me as a reader.
Cheers Sebastian, and all the best :)
bob
To me, the picture of Maria smoking crack combined with the caption works very well and does not fall short or stereotype in any way. The caption states the reality that she has faced. The story of her larger humanity is contained in the picture itself, showing all the possibilities and obstacles that have been before her and still lie ahead. Certainly, an essay focused on her showing other aspects of her life might work very well, but in the context of this essay, I think the image and the caption says everything that needs to be said.
Powerful essay – all the way through.
frostfrog:
1 picture of a girl, defined by a single notion: crack addict/prostitute since 8…..
horrific reality….
and yet: that horror immediately raises questions that i think deserve some insight into:
8 year old prostitute: family, parents, community?….the johns?….what she does else?…..
holly wood movie can do this, but should a documentary photographer rely on such a polemic?…
let us make it personal….
your grandchild becomes a crack addict, becomes a prostitute at 8!!!! (really???), and so that is THE ONLY thing i document: no other context, no investigation of the boys/men who used her body, who sold her the crack, not examination of what else she does (is she in school, does she play with friends, etc): pure horror show…..is this truthful?…i don’t know….if yes, of course, let me really broken by showing me the FULLNESS of her life and what that means….has she dropped out of school and only smokes crack and earns money through the exchange of her body…remember, i am not the one who wrote, prostitute since 8….once you do this, it is your responsibility to document and to show…
are pictures enough?….is it a cheapening of their plight to do this?…
….and the age, 8?….does it make any sense that when a photographer makes an assertion that a girl at 8 becomes a prostitute that this should be back up by additional information/research/investigation/document…..how about then shooting the men too, or giving us her words….
what i am suggesting is that that becomes (as reader and photographer) lazy: horror or shock for its own sake without responsibility….the picture is a profoundly heart breaking one and a measure one….no doubt….but accompanying that picture is a statement and have we become so numb NOT to ask these questions….
the caption says not ENOUGH about what needs to be said….
8 year old prostitute…..
what does that mean?….
we’re seduced by the power of the image…..pure and simple…and seduced, in an odd way, by the horror of the circumstances….but we owe them to be more responsible in our reporting, for this is about reporting…it is not a internal examination….
because, guess what, her life will be forgotten…and we’ll all basque in the glow of the project….
maybe that is my point: what is our responsibility….
to me, a story such as this: it is to NOT FALL victim to objectifying people or polemicizing them…
maybe Bill, i am too old…have seen too much of photographers who engage in the lives of folk who suffer and then move on….
ok, i’ve said enough…
i do hope people think more about that child and not only about her life but the specific use of her as 1 picture in an essay….
bb
This is excellent work.
And Sebastian, you may not think you are a photojournalist, but you can’t prove it to me after seeing this work.
And on some of the commentary… it really gets on my nerves when armchair know-it-alls sit back and pontificate on what should or should not have been in an essay. Unless you where there, I would suggest that you probably have no idea what you are blabbering about.
pete: armchair know-it-alls….i used to be a photojournalist and i’ve shot stories and written stories about both poverty and child drug/child prostitution in sw florida (google if you want)…and yes, maybe this is why i’ve written as much as i have….
no idea what i’m blabbering about?….please…but, again, i’m not at all surprised by your reaction to my comments….
you have no ability to engage but to discount and then toss aside a variant view…
you are a journalist?….i’m always shocked, frankly….
but maybe this IS the kind of commentary we want here?….
go back to your golf game….
bb
and I am willing to put my ass on the line Pete, are you?
I am willing to never criticize a single think published here, nor ask questions of photographic work, if you too will remain silent. Fair? I’ll go it better:
I’m willing to withdraw publication of my own work here from her eon out, for the future, if you are willing to stop being criticizing commentators here (as you always do, rather than address the substance of what they’re writing).
i’m willing to never publish here if you are willing to stop attacking people personally.
deal?
i’m willing to put that on the line, as a act of discussion
k
“maybe Bill, i am too old…have seen too much of photographers who engage in the lives of folk who suffer and then move on….”
Bob – when I picture you, I picture a fairly young man. I understand what you are saying. I too, grow weary of seeing essay upon essay of suffering put out there in the context that this is what photojournalism is all about and is the only photography that really matters.
Still, in the context of this multi-facited essay about a single place, that photo and caption together do communicate to me the essence of all that you lament not seeing here. I look at the girl and I see my own daughters and I see all the possibilites in her life and I know she is a human being beyond that moment, but that moment and that caption puts many things in context.
But in another sense, having written what I just wrote, I suddenly agree with you completely – because here we are in our comparatively comfortable worlds having a high-minded philosophical debate about this girl’s life while she, having been born with potential equal to that of our daughters and any human being, lives the reality of it. Admittedly, in this there is something a little off-skew.
I don’t care if you are Cartier-Bresson himself. If you were not there, you really have no reference point to criticize what should or should not be in an essay.
“go back to your golf game” that is intelligent, considering its football season.
As as for your idle threats about quitting posting, please. we have heard that cry before. First of all I can care less if you post here or not, but if you are going to pontificate, you should be prepared for opposing views.
You act like a pouting child at times.
Maybe you should consider that when you post your critiques that you are attacking. Guess that is hard to imagine when you are so sure you are right.
I don´t known, maybe because I´m brazilian this essay doesn´t touch me very much. Strange feeling.
Anyway, Sebastian, congrats.
I have been trying to form a comment since this essay appeared. I even had one typed out at one point but did not submit it.
I have gone through this essay many times now. The images, along with feelings of sadness, and un-answered questions have been rolling around in my mind late last night. My reaction has pretty much gone through the gamut of many of the comments so far, ” wow, sigh, grrrr”, and “oh dear, another gritty b/w poverty essay”. As of now, considering the effect it has had on me, and others reactions, there is no denying that this is very powerful and beautifully crafted work.
Congratulations Sebastian. Thankyou for being here, and for fanning the flames a bit.
Stuck at the office working on a document–decided to see what was new at Burn. Amazing. . .I love the visceral and intimate quality of these images. The ranting about the finer points of what photography should be? The best answer is to go out and make some of your own images. Thanks for these photos Mr. Liste.
Bob – I appreciated your follow-up and exchange with Sebastian. That’s what it’s all about. Well, sometimes I wish you could get there in less words (unless the sky is parting and wisdom is descending from above, I start skimming after 2 paragraphs). Everybody here knows you encourage photographers much more than you pick them apart. Personally, I’d like to see you pick people apart more. This is a serious business, and we are all uncomfortably close to being liars by trade.
Sebastian – You obviously have thousands of images that aren’t here. I’m very interested in the story about the girl. This narrative is limited, but you constructed it this way. I still wonder about the point. If it’s to create a fully rounded story drawing from your discipline as a sociologist that educates viewers, breaks our hearts, acquaints us with truth, and honors the subjects, then I can see that as work worth doing and printing.
I love that Burn allows real critiques. I’m grateful for that, and the community is welcome to push back when they disagree. That’s the beauty of it. Tempers flare, but when things get personal and rude…in an ideal world, we wouldn’t engage those comments at all.
This is very beautiful work Sebastian.
Whether or not you have used PS, you’ve captured very intimate moments that one would not have access to if it wasn’t for your work.
These images leave the viewer wanting more and so I ask…As a photographer with a background in sociology, how did you interact with children who are sex workers or have drug addictions?
How did you react to their practices? More importantly, how do they see themselves?
I do not ask to criticize your methods in the field. I only ask to understand how your behavior could have affected theirs in the presence of a camera.
Something I should have said from the very beginning,
Gracias por hacer …
ALL…..MY SUMMARY
this has been a very interesting discussion all around…good honest critique coming at this essay from every angle and a fine response from the author…a big fat thanks to all of you who wrote so intelligently….
i have had almost all the same reactions as everyone else…the main one being: this work is poignant powerful imagery on a subject that has been done and done and done…
so one comes away with “hey here is a talent” and yet there are always lingering doubts about exploitation that always arise when a privileged photographer engages with the not so privileged..but this is a discussion with no end…it is similar to the war photography conundrum….and of course credibility simply depends on very specifically who is telling the story…there cannot be blanket statements about the righteousness or the lack thereof…Sebastian has explained himself perfectly.
all of us, and particularly editors/curators, have to be very careful not to accidentally throw out the baby with the bathwater immediately on a story like this as cliché without really taking note…we did not miss it, but it would have been easy to do so….while i am personally very hungry to see a photographer take on the upper class with the intensity that seems to flow naturally in the favelas , i bow totally to the talents of Sebastian here with this essay…
i do feel the essay is totally anchored with a few really strong pictures which bleed over to some of the others and hold them up a bit higher than we might normally accept..yet this is what essay building is all about..nobody yet has ever had an essay with equality of imagery….a few sweetly combined notes make the melody….
so i am looking at two things here, and i think any editor would agree…
one thing is the essay…this one terrific..the other thing is the photographer…obviously talented…
end of discussion? no
i honestly am waiting to see what Sebastian does next to get a real feel for him as photographer overall….my fingers are crossed to find out if Sebastian is in for the long haul…i have only met Sebastian briefly and have no clue about him personally except for what he wrote here which leaves me only feeling good about his overall intent…
we all tend to think that because everyone now is a photographer and we are inundated with imagery that there are somehow too many talented photographers and not enough room for them all….i have always looked at lots of work and look at even more now with Burn, but i can tell you, and my colleagues at Burn will tell you, that with everyone out there with a camera, there still are no more of the best of the best than ever…there will always only be a few who can rise above the mean level whatever that mean level is…human nature …can Sebastian be one of these? he has struck a chord this time..and that alone is no small feat…talent and humanity is a powerful combo…i am betting Sebastian has it…
cheers, david
Well, we’ll see. It’s certainly interesting on very many levels. I took the unusual step of asking my wife to watch it. Photography, to her, is mostly a bottomless hole under my desk where I throw our money, so I don’t usually go out of my way to remind her of its existence, but she is interested in the issues raised by this essay; poverty porn, those black people sure are fucked up, depiction of third world, particularly African societies in general, so I was curious what she’d think, so we watched it many times and I threw all the different arguments at her. She, like me, and most of us, thought the quality of the work elevated it above the poverty porn and black people sure are fucked up genres, but she didn’t feel the chocolate factory angle had any visual resonance, saying that without the text it would appear to be just another third world poverty story. Her overall take was very similar to Bob’s. She was disturbed that it focused on the most fucked up residents and pointed out that the two pics that showed an alternate reality –– the birthday party and the family breakfast pic –– seemed incidental, as though the photographer didn’t make the same amount of effort for those, but merely included them for balance, and failed to achieve it. She believes that there are many more of those photos available, probably more than the bad things that dominate. But still she had a great deal of respect for the work’s strengths, and the photographer’s talent, and for the most part she trusted his motivations. Even with all the reservations, she thought it a good thing. But like Bob, she craved a truly balanced depiction of that life. Are you still reading Sebastian? Is that other reality to be found beyond those two scenes? Does that balance exist? If so, why aren’t we seeing it? If not, man, that really sucks.
As far as greatness, my concern is that it’s the year 2000 and something that appears to us to be such great work is so firmly ensconced in the historically great photography tradition. It looks like stuff other people have done. And to me, it looks a lot like classic Salgado. For the most part that’s a complement, though as I mentioned above, I think the chocolate factory may lack the symbolism that elevates Salgado beyond his technique. And it’s in the tradition of the WPA photographers and Smith, among many others. I question if at this late day and age truly great photographers shouldn’t be doing something different. Why isn’t this in color? You know, I’ve been critical of recent essays for overuse of photoshop dodging, but it didn’t really bother me in this. Were these color photographs that obviously manipulated, I’d be hostile. But with black and white, it doesn’t seem to bother me.
Anyway, here’s hoping you continue to go for it. And never stop questioning what “it” is.
Mike MW – I think your wife should become a regular part of this discussion.
MW
i am really curious…what part of this looks like Salgado besides b&w and South America? i have never seen Salgado even attempt what i call in the moment photography..Salgado is formal, structured,mostly people looking at the camera, classic…this is much looser and living in it photography..Salgado photographing fornication in the living room? no way….Salgado poverty is beautiful..you can hang those pictures on the wall….Liste poverty is as you say “fucked up”…close to the bone…i do agree that perhaps some Liste “living in it” could have swung in the direction of kids skipping to school, but Richards doesn’t ever let us off the hook either…the “greats” do not let us breathe…they keep your heart pounding..try to intellectualize it or go down the list of “must haves” and well by this time most have turned the page or clicked to another site…
again , this whole idea of “balance” which is totally necessary in the mass media just is not what makes a photographer great…it makes for a better newspaper of course, but if we are just talking the driven perspective , the driven eye, the driven statements that constitute “greatness” i do not think you will ever see journalistic “balance” at the top of the list…can you think of one? i can’t…
“balance” for mass media readers is best achieved by editors who use one photographer in one way and another photographer in another ..i do not know any great photographer who is also a versatile photographer….please let me repeat….for the mass media, presentations of important subjects to a wide variety of readers, yes you need a balance..somehow…but not necessarily from one photographer…well, yes, the budget..but i am talking about “greatness” of effort..the actual body of work, not what is required to sell newspapers and magazines and yes to satisfy many many readers and many many advertisers…
anyone trying to squeeze a well rounded coverage out of a photographer gets well rounded coverage…
we would all love to have your wife’s opinions…we often are all here too photographercentric….as i have just proven!! :)
cheers, david
I’ll defer to you regarding Salgado. It’s no doubt shallow to automatically equate anyone who does beautiful black and whites of extreme poverty with Salgado. But my initial critique was more about the differences than any likeness. Salgado seems to have grand things to say about is subjects. They both document extreme poverty, but Salgado seems more transcendent documentary while Liste is more lurid. Salgado imbues his work with meaning on a grand literary scale. I’m just saying Liste has room to grow in that direction.
Regarding balance, perhaps that is a poor choice of words or I don’t use it in quite the same way you do. Perhaps honesty or accuracy would be as good. My concern in these types of conversations revolves around the question of what the situation being photographed is really like. Since we are typically talking documentary not fiction, it’s important that what’s being documented is at least ball park accurate. In this example, Sebastian writes that his aim is to document the daily life inside the factory. So the question is whether or not he has succeeded at that. Were his stated aim to document drug use and prostitution in the factory, I wouldn’t be saying anything about balance. And if the factory has devolved to such an extent that it’s 90 percent drugs and prostitution, again, well done. But if the daily life in the factory is largely normal, as suggested by the birthday and family breakfast photos, it’s fair to ask if the focus on the drugs and prostitution is misleading. That’s the gist of my questioning.
I agree with what MW is saying about balance or accuracy or whatever you want to call it. It is hard to know if something is telling all sides or even trying to do so. And as I said above, since he was there and we were not, we cannot really fairly judge what is missing in this essay or any other for that matter. Although as MW said, he does give us a glimpse of something else other than drugs and prostitution.
From my point of view as a photojournalist, I do not try to be balanced in an effort to appease one type of reader or another. Newspapers and magazines may do it that way, but that is not in my control. I make an attempt at balance because as MW said it is about accuracy and honesty. If someone insists on only telling one side of the story, it tends to turn into propaganda more than documentary storytelling.
Pete…
I think you’re being very fair in trying not to judge the essay, I’ve always been inclined to feel this way about most things in life if I haven’t been present. However Burn would be a very, very boring site without the generally constructive critisism and praise. I personally would never have learnt as much from all of you and I still remember your very interesting comments on the essay “Destino”.
MW …PETE
i essentially agree with your restated comment/question Michael…and you are wise to always question…i do as well when looking at a story like this…i do hope Sebastian jumps in one more time…just remember that honesty and integrity are also subjective..but yes this is how i justify leaving my front porch with a camera in the first place…i feel like i am doing justice to any given subject and i think i have done my homework..but still even THAT is a subjective thought…anyway, we are basically on the same page…disagree with you though Pete on your last point …i think you are confusing strong point of view with propaganda…could be of course, but not a given
cheers, david
Balance, truth, honesty…
Why? It’s all just a personal point of view an idea which drives the photograher who is inspired to create however right or wrong and biased his view is.
From the Cambridge Dictionary Online:
propaganda
noun /ˌprɒp.əˈgæn.də//ˌprɑː.pə-/ [U] mainly disapproving
Definition
information, ideas, opinions or images, often only giving one part of an argument, which are broadcast, published or in some other way spread with the intention of influencing people’s opinions
“Strong point of view” or “only giving one part of an argument” sounds like the same thing to me.
Paul:
You say I am not judging the essay? I clearly stated that I thought it was excellent.
Pete, dictionary definitions aside, I think most of us think dishonest is part of the definition of propaganda. I wouldn’t say that about strong point of view. Honesty and strong point of view are not mutually exclusive. And when done well, they go very well together.
Paul, perhaps you’re speaking for yourself because different photographers have different motivations and accurately depicting reality is far, far, far from an uncommon one. Probably more the norm, actually, and it’s an important part of the job description for journalists and documentary photographers. And oh sure, you can wax all day about the impossibility of true objectivity but it’s certainly not impossible to try to depict reality honestly. Of course that doesn’t mean nothing but mirror images. A little artistic license can often depict reality more honestly than a mirror. That’s where strong point of view comes in.
PAUL
yes, if we are discussing the ideal…a photographer working on his/her own ..different for a commissioned photographer from the more traditional media..the parameters of acceptance change radically particularly when advertisers are involved…media always say they are not affected by who advertises with them… but i doubt that…any company say spending a few million dollars a year advertising in a publication will at least have some influence either directly or indirectly with how the publication thinks about things…if say a camera company dropped a million bucks on Burn to carry out a few assignments, i would probably be waking up in the middle of the night thinking about it…better if 500,000 readers gave me $2. per year for the same…i would sleep quite well and make commission choices based only on the work and making your statement the reality…
cheers, david
PETE
this is the concept i have been trying to explain to you for three years…authorship does not equate to propaganda…but after all this time of going backwards and forwards and sideways and showing you example after example of authored work that is clearly not propaganda, i guess the point will just never be taken…so amigo, YOU do have a point of view that cannot be altered!! i guess that is fair enough after all…just pulling out the Cambridge Dictionary to come up with a definition is antithetical to what i have been trying to suggest anyway…love you Pete…
cheers, david
MW
“Pete, dictionary definitions aside, I think most of us think dishonest is part of the definition of propaganda. I wouldn’t say that about strong point of view. Honesty and strong point of view are not mutually exclusive. And when done well, they go very well together.”
I agree. The word does tend to be used negatively and in the way you suggest. I also do not think that honesty and a strong point of view are mutually exclusive. But there is usually another side to a story. Yes we all have our opinions and it can be hard to keep them out of our work. But I think the high goal is to try. I try simply to document what I see. I want to record the information. The viewer can make up their own minds.
DAH
“media always say they are not affected by who advertises with them… but i doubt that”
I would love to be able to argue this, but unfortunately I have to agree it is probably true for the most part.
“authorship does not equate to propaganda”
In my case I try to make sure it does not. But if someone only presents a narrow point of view it is simply their opinion and in publications, opinions belong on the editorial page.
And let me be very clear here…. I am not saying that presenting something with a strong point of view is a bad thing. We are basically talking about freedom of speech here.
I simply prefer not to be so narrow in my work. Which is kind of ironic since you are accusing me of being narrow in my point of view.
MW…
It all comes down to opinions doesn’t it?
You and I will probably agree that the war in Irak and Afghanistan is most likely the biggest mistake the United States have made in the last decade and I’m sure both of us have believed this right from the very beginning. However other people may not agree with our view and think it was the correct decision to take. So if we decided together to make an essay on this awful mistake we would be biased even though we made our very best to be aware of our opinion and so those who were pro war also. Because one is normally passionate about one’s beliefs and I personally believe balance usually brings mediocre work. Just look at Eugene Smith’s masterwork Minimata… totally one sided view on a very tragic story.
No Paul, often there are usually facts involved. What was the opinion in Smith’s work? Those chemicals really did cause that disease. It wouldn’t be such a great essay had he been wrong on the facts.
MW…
Yes of course the chemicals did undoubtedly cause the disease but he did not in any moment shed any light on those working at the chemical plant after all even though it was disgrace what happened many of those living close by had jobs at the plant.
Yes I agree facts are facts just like I’ve just read how Obama has pardoned far less death sentences than Bush. Pretty amazing :(!
But I not really thinking about the factual part of an essay but the emotional or subconscious side of a photographers eye. The one which betrays all attempts at being balanced and showing equal attention to both sides of the story… The sudden split second where you or I tell OUR truth regardless of the fact that it may be wrong, what we wholeheartedly believe in.
PETE
awww c’mon Pete , you know i am just giving you a hard time..as you do me…if i did not know you, i would be way easier…everything said in friendship….i do think you sometimes present yourself as having a much narrower point of view than you actually have…listen Pete, when you and i actually sit down and look at pictures together , we usually agree…right? i even liked your Capitol Hill stuff better than you did …Circus i was high on, right? we liked all the same pictures and i am sure the sequencing would have been satisfactory to both of us…we just have mostly rhetorical battle…relax…loosen up…you are doing some nice work now…we will show it soon on Burn…
cheers, david
We’re not arguing here David, just giving as good as I get.
I had to have a little dental procedure done today. I have codeine coursing through me…
Trust me.. I am relaxed!
:)
I’m not even going to attempt to sort out who said what and to address the correct person here.
In the latest incarnation of my preprocessed statement, I say, “Photography is simple. It’s about seeing and about translating what we see into pictures. For me, the challenge is in acknowledging the documentary properties of each photograph while maintaining its presence foremost as an aesthetic study.”
(I guess if I were a journalist first, perhaps I would feel differently, but I made the decision years ago to marry photography.)
I think Bob’s (and others’?) comments that he’d like to see more depth, more story, are, while valid, irrelevant. What he’s asking for is not what Sebastien saw. I think this dovetails with David’s comments. The photographer sees what he sees, and even then it may not be what the camera will see. Remember, the term, documentary, is only relative. The photo is not the thing, it’s a photo.
michaelashapiro
Oh hell…
doc·u·men·ta·ry (dky-mnt-r)
adj.
1. Consisting of, concerning, or based on documents.
2. Presenting facts objectively without editorializing or inserting fictional matter, as in a book or film.
n. pl. doc·u·men·ta·ries
A work, such as a film or television program, presenting political, social, or historical subject matter in a factual and informative manner and often consisting of actual news films or interviews accompanied by narration.
note the part about “without editorializing.”
DAH
Sorry, just couldn’t resist. Blame it on the codeine. HA!
Pete that is as anal as it gets
Under picture 16:
“they have managed to build their dignity and routine….”
Just on the scenes and glimpes of life stories given to us by Sebatian, unless one equates it solely with resilience, what dignity?
Imants:
Thank you.
Sometimes it is not good to blur the line between what you say your doing and what it actually is your doing. Rush Limbaugh SAYS he is an entertainer and FOX news says they provide balanced reporting. But not really.
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Paul, regarding your contention that truth is irrelevant to photography, that it’s only the photographer’s fee fee’s that matter, I’ll just say it’s fortunate you are not a photojournalist or documentary photographer. The stuff about Smith not photographing the dolphins or whatever is a straw man argument. Smith was a great documentary photographer because he brought artistic insight to bear on the facts in a way that illuminated the truth so that just about anyone could see. Had he used artists tricks to peddle crap, no matter how sincerely he believed in it, he might have been a star in the advertising world but would not be part of this conversation.
MW…
First of all if you don’t mind we’ll leave the personal attacks out of this, thank you!
I never said the truth is irrelevant to photography.
All I’m saying is my truth doesn’t have to be necessarily the same truth as your’s. Nobody is talking about dishonesty or lying and nothing to do with artistic tricks either.
Here’s DAH…
“one of the greatest of all essays was of course Minamata….and yes Gene did show both the waste water and the negative effects..but balance? obviously some thought not..he was beaten so badly by the Japanese goons for his one sided approach, that he never recovered…he died because he did not give a balanced view…what about all the families of workers who lost their jobs because of this corporate exposure? the bosses may have guilt, but the families of the workers were certainly innocents who suffered…many in Japanese society were benefiting from this industry…the industry was not set up to kill people ..the negative effects were found out later, but was not corporate intent…a balanced coverage would have brought in both sides of the story…WE on the outside can only see the negatives, me included…but an academic argument could be easily made that Smith did not do a balanced coverage…again, Minamata a great and powerful and the first really important environmental essay…Smith the finest of essayists.”
I am constantly torn between the attitude of the conscientious journalist who is a recorder and interpreter of the facts and of the creative artist who often is necessarily at poetic odds with the literal facts. – W. Eugene Smith, The picture history of photography: From the earliest beginnings to the present day by Peter Pollack , ISBN: 0500271011 , Page: 165
What personal attacks? And I thought it was something of a strawman argument when David made it back then too, although less so due to context. Nobody is talking about that kind of ridiculous “balance.” We were talking about depicting reality effectively. Like I said, if the story was about drugs and prostitution in the factory, fine. But it’s about life in the factory, so that raises the question of how much all those pictures of drugs and prostitution represent life in the factory. It’s not a question of balance, it’s a question of accuracy (And please note, I don’t know the answer to those questions, just asking). And had Smith’s essay been about how the release of dangerous chemicals affected people’s health and the job situation at the chemical factory, then the same questions would be valid. But that wasn’t the stated purpose of the piece.
Sorry if I misunderstand your position, but you often make an argument to the effect that all that matters is personal point of view, that right or wrong don’t matter. Fine, for art, but for photojournalism no.
This is getting blown a bit out of proportion given the overall fantastic quality of the piece. Just questions around the edges.
And truth, btw, is truth for everybody. You’re talking about opinion.
mw
well said.
MW…
“And truth, btw, is truth for everybody. You’re talking about opinion.”
Maybe…
Opinion can also be analogous to truth
Smiling…This is getting silly, we aren’t going to get anywhere because you are as usual entrenched in your views and so am I this time. I perfectly accept your views and in no way do I want to turn this into an online altercation. I don’t want to show disrespect to this brilliant essay and above all I’ve always appreciated your writing and your views.
What’s up with this ongoing truth and balance rant/debate? From a purely visual perspective, less than 8 of the 24 images display sex, drugs, violence, or prostitution.
What do you want to see, only 2 photos of sex and drugs? Or are you more angered by the bleak narrative?
My own visceral reaction hit me with shock and disbelief at the birthday image. Perhaps this caused others to question truth and balance?
On the bright side, all these comments help dispel the notion that good essays don’t see much dialogue.;-)
SFJASON…
yes,….and yes
PAUL
i forgot my comment which i think was made the last time we had the “balance” issue…which does come up all the time…but yes, i would still stand by my comment …and at the same time i still think of course Smith did the right thing, and what any concerned photographer would have done…but of course , as i said in my comment, there are always two sides every story, or almost every story…
David…
I’m very happy with things out of balance. That’s where I believe infatuation, passion, anger and obsessiveness exist, that is where my favourite essays stand and have to exist and drive the greatest photographers to make them take that extra step the average don’t.
I see there is a big discussion going on about truth.
One can be entirely factual and accurate and in so doing tell a big lie. One can lie like crazy and tell an honest story.
The above statement is 100 percent true.
I would not lie about such matters.
I have had my fun for the day. Now I must get to work and try to tell an honest story.
truth strewth baloney ……Smith’s stuff is a visual feast. The public and participants and their camera phones are the photo/video jouros of today not the sanctioned few……………. and it goes like this………
Here is a photograph of a guy with his brains blown out and I blew his brains out and took the photo.
By the way here is another photo of 50 jackasses with huge nikons and canons taking photographs of me.
Give the guys some baloney for their audiences
Yea, sfjason, it got a bit away from the actual essay into old philosophical arguments.
Nevertheless, I can’t help but noting that when it comes to the good kind of balance, David is one of its foremost practitioners, at least in his published work. And yes, I know that some of that is the result of editorial pressure, like W. Eugene Smith’s picture of the chemical spewing pipe, but the results come in at such a high level it’s obvious that there’s a lot more to it than simply satisfying the editor. Could anyone possibly tell a story about Nairobi in such depth with seven or eight photos? Or Cuba? Or so many other assignments? Very few and far between. I know a lot of study goes into achieving that kind of balance. A lot of deep thinking as well. A grad student could write a thesis on it someday. Is there some kind of formula? Or at least a loose pattern? Wealthy/Poor/Dangerous/Religion/Geography/Tourism? Something like that perhaps. Whatever, a balance is always achieved. Not all-inclusive, but illuminating nevertheless.
“Smith’s stuff is a visual feast. The public and participants and their camera phones are the photo/video jouros of today not the sanctioned few”
Where the many unfortunately no longer meet the other.
If one relied on the six o’clock news for information one would be pretty confused and misinformed with what is going on
Oh, you were referring to television? Don’t own one.
IMANTS…YOUNG TOM
i am sometimes on television…but i do not own one ….only time i see a television is in my hotel room…and it is usually off….see CNN at the airport waiting area and that is plenty…see movies at the theater….or, on my laptop…
cheers, david
t the way we gather information and how it s gathered ………not owning a TV does not preclude you from its influence
IMANTS…
oh i am influenced by many things, and yes probably tv too….and exactly what would you recommend for the best way to gather information and disseminate and not be under the influence of anything? your point is?
I was replying to Tom and stating the ineptness of the traditional six o’clock news as a source of information.
Photojournalism is still tied to these traditional media forms but really needs to move on if it is to survive. If photojournalists want to play with truth justice and impartiality their cause will be lost.
If one feels that ignoring something that it will go away and be of no influence they are sadly mistaken
IMANTS…
ok..got it..thanks…yes, true
Cause? What cause?
play?
“It is, moreover, evident from what has been said, that it is not the function of the poet to relate what has happened, but what may happen- what is possible according to the law of probability or necessity. The poet and the historian differ not by writing in verse or in prose. The work of Herodotus might be put into verse, and it would still be a species of history, with meter no less than without it. The true difference is that one relates what has happened, the other what may happen. Poetry, therefore, is a more philosophical and a higher thing than history: for poetry tends to express the universal, history the particular. By the universal I mean how a person of a certain type on occasion speak or act, according to the law of probability or necessity; and it is this universality at which poetry aims in the names she attaches to the personages. The particular is- for example- what Alcibiades did or suffered. In Comedy this is already apparent: for here the poet first constructs the plot on the lines of probability, and then inserts characteristic names- unlike the lampooners who write about particular individuals. But tragedians still keep to real names, the reason being that what is possible is credible: what has not happened we do not at once feel sure to be possible; but what has happened is manifestly possible: otherwise it would not have happened. Still there are even some tragedies in which there are only one or two well-known names, the rest being fictitious. In others, none are well known- as in Agathon’s Antheus, where incidents and names alike are fictitious, and yet they give none the less pleasure. We must not, therefore, at all costs keep to the received legends, which are the usual subjects of Tragedy. Indeed, it would be absurd to attempt it; for even subjects that are known are known only to a few, and yet give pleasure to all. It clearly follows that the poet or ‘maker’ should be the maker of plots rather than of verses; since he is a poet because he imitates, and what he imitates are actions. And even if he chances to take a historical subject, he is none the less a poet; for there is no reason why some events that have actually happened should not conform to the law of the probable and possible, and in virtue of that quality in them he is their poet or maker.
Of all plots and actions the episodic are the worst. I call a plot ‘episodic’ in which the episodes or acts succeed one another without probable or necessary sequence. Bad poets compose such pieces by their own fault, good poets, to please the players; for, as they write show pieces for competition, they stretch the plot beyond its capacity, and are often forced to break the natural continuity.
But again, Tragedy is an imitation not only of a complete action, but of events inspiring fear or pity. Such an effect is best produced when the events come on us by surprise; and the effect is heightened when, at the same time, they follow as cause and effect. The tragic wonder will then be greater than if they happened of themselves or by accident; for even coincidences are most striking when they have an air of design. We may instance the statue of Mitys at Argos, which fell upon his murderer while he was a spectator at a festival, and killed him. Such events seem not to be due to mere chance. Plots, therefore, constructed on these principles are necessarily the best.” Aristotle, Poetics
The simultaneous measurement of two conjugate variables (such as the momentum and position or the energy and time for a moving particle) entails a limitation on the precision (standard deviation) of each measurement. Namely: the more precise the measurement of position, the more imprecise the measurement of momentum, and vice versa. In the most extreme case, absolute precision of one variable would entail absolute imprecision regarding the other. Werner Heisenberg, the uncertainly principle.
Δp × Δx = h Heisenberg again, for those of you who enjoy such things.
So what is objectivity? Heisenberg tells us that it doesnt really exist physically and Aristotle tells us that poetry is superior to history, which is not something most of us are used to hearing. In Spanish Village, the wake of Juan Larra, Smith blotted out a woman’s eyes and then drew them in with pencil because she was looking at the camera and not at the dead man. Does that change the value of the photo? Joe Rosenthal missed his big chance to make history and took a photograph of Marines raising the second flag on Mt. Suribachi instead, an event so insignificant that it was not recorded in the ship’s logs of any of the thousand or more vessels that saw the flag go up or in the daily operations diaries of any of the Marine units involved. Does that change the value of his photograph? So what is objectivity? What is bias? Is the former simply a way of disguising the latter?
And while you’re all pondering that heavy stuff, it time for
XCVIII
and his friend, the ever popular
XCIX
and then there’s
C
AVE AKAKIUS!!!!
AKAKY: God, that guy is getting annoying.
AKAKY IRL: Tell me about it.
AKAKY: Is he still running for mayor of Pompeii?
AKAKY IRL: Yup.
AKAKY: Why? The only Italian he speaks is what he can read off a menu.
AKAKY IRL: There are sorrier ways to go through life, dude, but I have to agree with you there. On the other hand, he’s looking for the native Pompeiian vote.
AKAKY: The native Pompeiian vote? Those people are all plaster figures in a museum now.
AKAKY IRL: You know it’s dumb, I know it’s dumb, but what can you do? Remember, you’re the one with the uncle who can’t drop a deuce without wearing a funny hat. Life is strange sometimes.
AKAKY: Yes, it is.
Here’s Sebastian’s work for Joop Swart Masterclass:
http://www.worldpressphoto.org/photo/jsm2011sebastian-01?gallery=1982
not often you see such strong photographs
congrats!
Pingback: Thursday 20 October 2011
EXCELLENT.
Pretty much every aspect of this project works for me: style, subject matter, access, etc.
You, sir, deserve to go far.
:-)
Here two interviews with Sebastian Liste, the first one about the work presented here, the second about the work he did for the masterclass:
http://www.daylightmagazine.org/blog/2011/10/27/1246
http://www.daylightmagazine.org/blog/2011/11/24/1261